10 • Firefighter resiliency - we're in it together

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If you're looking for a podcast to inspire and inform, to take you beyond bullet points with practical insights that will help you make a difference in your work and life, then you've come to the right place.
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I'm Dr.
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Jason Price, and this is Life at the Sharp End.
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Leadership, whether you're Fire Administration, Union Leader, or anybody in the world that is in a role that can make influence, it's not about looking at the organization first, it's like looking at yourself first.
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Steve Farina has been in Fire and Rescue in British Columbia, Canada since he was a teenager.
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He's Executive Vice President of the British Columbia Professional Firefighters Association and Vice Chair of its Mental Health Task Force and Occupational Health and Safety Committee.
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Steve's commitment to firefighter mental health and wellbeing has seen him play a key role in establishing the British Columbia Firefighter Resiliency Program, an innovative partnership that's been independently assessed as having statistically significant positive outcomes on the mental health of first responders.
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Steve's also a Captain on Engine 1 in the Fire Suppression Division of Coquitlam Fire Department.
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As someone who's spent his whole career in Fire and Rescue, Steve has a wealth of experience and opinions on the state of Fire and Rescue Service culture and the role of leaders, unions and individuals in creating a respectful and supportive emergency service culture.
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Let's hear from Steve about his experiences of Life at the Sharp End of leadership challenges in Fire and Rescue and how he's supporting firefighter mental health through the British Columbia Firefighter Resiliency Program.
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This episode does mention incidents of suicide and you'll find links to support organisations in the show notes.
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Steve, it's great to have you on the podcast here.
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Could you start by telling us a little bit about your career journey as a firefighter, a union representative and a mental health champion?
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Yes, thank you.
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It started off as a paid on-call firefighter when I was 19 years old.
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So I did that in my hometown.
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Five years later, I became a career firefighter with Coquitlam, and that was 27 years ago.
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So I've been in the fire service for over 32 years now.
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And not once did I ever think I would go become a union executive.
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I had no idea that there would be this other side of this world.
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And I got thrown into that world in 2005.
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I was asked to become a health and safety rep for a local.
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And 18 years later, I just passed the reins on to a younger fella.
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And I've been part of the Provincial Association since 2016 now.
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And so we represent 4,500 members across British Columbia, 55 different affiliate locals.
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And I wear my mental health hat, my health and safety hat doing those roles as well.
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So it's been quite a journey.
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I've done everything from fire dispatch to training.
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I've driven every apparatus in our world.
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And now I'm a company officer and a captain on engine one.
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So that's been my career trajectory.
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And now I'm the executive vice president with our association as well.
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So very privileged and honoured to be in those roles.
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You've been in Fire and Rescue for a really long time.
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Obviously, you've had a career.
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And one of the things people talk about with Fire Services, it's very much that the job defines to a large degree people's personality.
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They want to be a firefighter because that's the job.
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It's a part of who they are when they go into these things.
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And that's sort of at the heart of culture.
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And there's this kind of particularly close-knit culture in Fire and Rescue Services.
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But that can also be a bit of a double-edged sword when it comes to the kind of inclusivity, gender balance.
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And you talked about some of the things you've encountered as a union rep with bullying and harassment as well.
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You must have had quite a broad range of conversations with people at sort of all levels in the Fire Service over the time.
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What's your take on Fire and Rescue workplace culture and how you've seen that change or not change over your career?
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Yeah, it's interesting.
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We have a saying in the Fire Service is that we don't like things changing, but we hate things that stay the same.
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And so there's this conflict of we love this tradition that we have, but we also want, you know, it needs to evolve.
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I have seen a culture shift for sure in British Columbia anyway.
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In fact, you know, I've got dealings right across North America and not out of the UK per se, but definitely, you know, a firefighter is a firefighter.
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I mean, worldwide, you know, I've met my Mexican counterparts and Australian counterparts and I've got a few Kiwis that I've connected with that we all speak the same language.
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And so, you know, you talk about this double-edged sword.
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We call it a fire service family.
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And I think the police sometimes refer to it as a thin blue line.
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You definitely have this subculture of people because you have this shared and lived experience and you kind of get each other and so you can relate.
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But if you're not in that inner circle, you're going to find yourself challenged.
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I seem to have ridden that edge a little bit.
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I'm not your atypical hunter, fisherman, firefighter.
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I've done lots of team sports and stuff like that.
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So I do have some trades background.
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But if you didn't fit this mold, you were kind of like an outsider.
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And so that can be a blessing sometimes and it can be, you can really complement the group dynamics or you can find yourself on the fringes and be ostracized a little bit.
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And that is extremely challenging.
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And I've seen this over the years with multiple people from multiple fire departments is that if you are on that outside and you have some trauma issues and challenges, mental health challenges, you feel very alone and you don't feel seen and heard.
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And that's really the core of a lot of our issues in our world, whether it's bullying, harassment, mental health challenges, is that if you're not part of that inner tribe, you're not supported and you better have a good family life and a good support system outside of the Fire Service or else you're going to be at risk of a psychological injury or worse.
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That's been the same since I've started.
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Now, what I've started to see though is peer support really come to the forefront.
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We've really been able to get some more eyes out there.
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Just being really good human beings, having those difficult conversations and supporting people throughout their Fire Service journey.
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And at certain touch points in their life, whether they have a divorce, elder care issues, whatever is going on in their life.
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Their kid is in Children's Hospital.
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You know, we're there to support them.
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We don't want to just have this one peer support team of 20 people.
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We want the entire department to be a family and truly take care of each other.
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You're never going to connect with everybody on any level, but you can be a good human being.
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I think that's where I see at least my Fire Department.
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It has evolved this very caring, checking in on everybody kind of mentality.
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But the Fire Service in general, it's all over the place.
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It's like a snowflake.
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Every department has their interesting kind of dynamics.
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I can say what I've observed is even within a Fire Department, from shift to shift, hall to hall, crew to crew, you've got different dynamics.
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That's just human beings.
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That's been my experience so far.
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It's been interesting working within that kind of construct, for sure.
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Yeah.
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You've raised some good points there that I talked to in a previous podcast with Chad Costa about Fire Service leadership.
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And one of the things Chad talked about, which was really interesting, was the probationary period and when people come in, it's the keep your head down, shut up, get on with it, and we'll make you fit.
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And then at the end of that situation, leaders are sitting there going, well, hang on a minute, this firefighter doesn't quite culturally fit.
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Well, how could you assess somebody's behavior in probation if the culture and behavior is, you haven't been here, you don't know what you're doing, keep quiet and get on with it?
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So kind of an interesting nuance, isn't it?
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If you've got these cultures in watches or in teams or in stations, and somebody does come in who's different, how do we get people to understand that actually the person who's coming in who's different, whether it's their gender, their sexuality, their belief, their new attitudes or new views, how can that be accepted into a culture where they kind of haven't been there and done it yet, and people may look at them and go, well, what do you know?
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You're new.
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How do you break that down?
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Yeah.
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I mean, when I got on, it was you have two eyes, two ears in one mouth, right?
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Use them appropriately.
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And that's the ratio for sure.
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Now, you know, I used to be in the training division and I have talked to multiple recruit classes over the last 20 years.
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In fact, I've done health and safety lectures.
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And a big part of it is not just the health and safety piece, but taking care of yourself and getting yourself a mental health and all those things.
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It's about making a good first impression.
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So there's, it's not just the organization, it's the responsibility of the new person coming in to realize there is a cult existing.
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And it's not that you have to conform, but how do you navigate those waters as a new person respectfully?
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You know, I look back at my journey is I was told to ask lots of questions, be a good learner and just kind of know your place because you are a junior man on the totem pole.
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You are going to be cleaning the toilets, you are basically a janitor that is fighting fires.
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And so if you can accept that role, you have a culture that wants to mentor you and sees you as something to form and to pass on knowledge respectfully, you are going to have a win-win situation where I can speak up if there is a health and safety issue or there is something.
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And I say this as a captain now, I say if someone's giving you shit, like beyond what's normal, you have to come and talk to me.
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Open door policy.
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And because that's not how we learn, right?
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And there's this switch between a democratic kind of work around the fire hall training and everything.
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Where we're learning, we're mentoring, we are honing our skills and we're finding our way.
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But on the fire ground, it's autocratic and you must, you know, you've got to jump to the pump.
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You got to, you're running into a burning building.
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So let's make sure we're all firing on the same cylinders.
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And if it's, if it's an issue, we've got to talk about it.
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But it's more, much more structured.
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And so it's learning how to switch gears with that.
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And it's right from the very top.
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Like if the fire chief and administration has this culture where the new people are the biggest asset, all of our people are assets.
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We need to train them, mentor them, and mold them.
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But it's got to be done in a respectful way.
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And for years, it hasn't been.
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There's been hazing.
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There's been this, I know everything, you know nothing, right?
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Like I know more than you'll ever know.
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And I've forgotten half of the stuff already.
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So it's just this ego driven mentality, this old traditional salty firefighter.
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And when I became in that role, I wanted to break that down.
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You can still be a salty captain, but be a good mentor and a good human being.
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And I had those officers.
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I had the big handlebarred officers that would pick up a broom in the truck bay and sweep up with us.
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And it was a player's coach.
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That's the leadership that I see in the Fire Service that mentors new people.
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You know, we don't want to coddle them either because this is a tough profession.
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And so there's this balance of you've got to make the grade.
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You are going to be tested to see if you can fit in conformant to a team and be trusted as a team member.
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And I'm going to rely on you.
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You're going to have my back.
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But that can be done in a way where you challenge them, but you teach them at the same time.
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So this drill sergeant mentality, yes, it's a paramilitary world that we live in, but it can be done in such a different manner.
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And I think the Navy Seals have really come a long way where they use a lot of psychological and behavioral coaching, where they test them and bring them to their limit, but it's done in a much more psychologically safe way.
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You've mentioned the word respectful quite a lot.
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It's interesting listening to you talking about it, because you're right, you know, there are safety issues.
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You don't want somebody going into a building and their breathing apparatus isn't working or it's not been checked properly.
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And there are things that have to be done for reasons of people's safety.
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But as a captain, if you're leading in a respectful manner, what would be your tips to other people in leadership roles for how you in your world and your area of influence you've got in your crew, that you can actually make that difference so that people do feel safe.
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If somebody's come in and we know the gender balance is very, very low in relatively speaking in Fire and Rescue services to other organizations.
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So if somebody comes on to a crew or into a station, and they need to be able to speak up, is saying you can speak up, and actually what happens after you do speak up, we know from research evidence can be two different things.
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So as a leader, as a captain, how do you handle that to create that psychological safety in practice?
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It's a great question, and I struggled with this in that a lot of first responders struggle with control.
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And what can I control?
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What is within my control?
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And you can get eaten up by this.
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There was a shift for me where I realized that I can control at a crew level of how I show up for my people.
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And a very good captain of mine told me that you work for them, they don't work for you.
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And so that kind of mentality of that player's coach, how do I support them because they're going to be carrying me?
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They're going to make me look good.
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I basically created this little subculture within the crew where I wanted them to be seen and heard.
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I wanted to know what was going on in their life.
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Like whether they had young kids, what was going on, not at a super deep level, but just they're human beings and they have a life outside of the fire service.
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So we have to kind of look at them as two different things.
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We've got the firefighter and then the dad, the coach, the son, or the daughter.
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And so I wanted to create that culture.
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So it was, every time I got a new crew, we sat them down and it's about expectations.
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What did they expect of me as a leader?
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And what I expect of them?
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And I expect them to know their job.
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I expect them to do the work without me having to ride them.
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And we want to be a cohesive team and care about each other.
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Because if we have each other, that's what we rely upon.
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And so it was things like around the coffee table.
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And I got laughed at a lot by other captains.
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I did a bit of a gratitude thing around the table at dinner.
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And give me one thing you're grateful for.
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And I don't care what it is.
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It could be time spent with your kids.
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You went fishing today, whatever it was.
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I always applauded good self-care.
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And the general theme was, had good family time.
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And then there was also a check-in basically.
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First day shift, everyone's day's off.
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Where are you at right now?
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How's your sleep?
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And so this kind of culture where we started to look at each other as we're just more than just at work as a firefighter.
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That's where it started.
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What I offered obviously was there was an open door policy.
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If there's something that needs to get done or there's something that I'm not doing right, we got to talk.
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You can put the checkbox of communication there.
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Everyone's like, it's all about communication.
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But truly it is because and it's how you receive that information and what you do with it.
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If you just hear them and don't act on it, we're getting a lot of pressure from our supervisor, and he's not going to the chain of command or whatever.
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That's my job.
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If I don't do anything about it, they're going to lose faith in me, they're going to lose respect.
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I need to act on what's put forward for me.
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That's what I did on my level and I'm off right now, holidays and I just heard through the grapevine, we have a little WhatsApp chat about critical incidents, and we just had a jumper off of a pedestrian bridge.
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I reached out and checked on one of my guys that I know, he's a junior guy, he's got a young baby at home, and I just reached out to him and checked in on him, and he was very appreciative of that.
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I just share that with you is that it's not just at work.
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When I'm off, I want to check in on my people, they're my people.
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If you really think about that, that's how you would treat human beings and treat your family.
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That's the culture that I wanted as an officer, and I saw good models of that, and I also saw the opposite side of that, where the captain stayed in the room, he came out to eat with the guys, went back in.
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I cook and prep with my guys in the kitchen, shoulder to shoulder, and I do that because that's where all the problems get solved, that's where all the things that talked about, and that's bonding.
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Families that eat together, stay together kind of mentality.
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Then when you have a fire or an emergency incident or a car accident or whatever, you show up in a more cohesive unit, and then you come home and you heal together, and you process that stuff better.
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There's so many positives to that than just being this leader that leads from up here.
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It's a difference between positional power, giving leadership authority and respect and trust.
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You mentioned trust and respect are probably two words that I've picked up from the things you've been saying there.
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You mentioned training, and you've had a role obviously in training people quite a bit.
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One of the things that's been said is that Fire Services are very, very good at training people on the technical competence, which is great because when a building's burning and we're trapped in a car, we want you to know what you're doing when you get there.
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But actually the interpersonal skills are not something that's particularly effectively trained in Fire Service.
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There's links to everything you said.
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Your personality and your type is this is how I want to lead.
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But when people move from a technical role up into leadership, do you think that's a realistic picture of the problems with Fire Service training and how is that something that we could overcome?
00:18:54.197 --> 00:18:55.677
Absolutely.
00:18:55.677 --> 00:18:57.317
It is about the hard skills.
00:18:57.317 --> 00:19:00.637
It is about pulling hoes, throwing ladders.
00:19:00.637 --> 00:19:01.797
It is about the technical.
00:19:02.217 --> 00:19:09.857
I mean, we do so many technical things, whether it is confined space rescue, hazardous materials, cutting people out of cars.
00:19:09.857 --> 00:19:14.317
It is a very technical job and it is an all-hazards job.
00:19:14.317 --> 00:19:17.177
So there is a ton of operational focus.
00:19:17.177 --> 00:19:24.217
But that human being aspect is interesting because I have seen all types of leaders through my career.
00:19:24.217 --> 00:19:27.057
And it is not that it is intrinsic in some people.
00:19:27.057 --> 00:19:38.237
Some people are just carrying human beings that can be the Firefighters' Firefighter, yet still be a player's coach at the same time in a leadership role.
00:19:38.237 --> 00:19:40.897
And so they have no problem transitioning.
00:19:40.897 --> 00:19:44.117
They are just naturally born leaders.
00:19:44.117 --> 00:19:51.337
And then there are other people that lead because it is just that you mentioned this positional authority where it is like, I am the captain now or I am the chief now.
00:19:51.337 --> 00:19:53.977
Look at all my stripes and my gold.
00:19:53.977 --> 00:19:56.997
Good for you, but respect is earned.
00:19:57.257 --> 00:20:00.797
And I can respect the position, I don't have to respect the person.
00:20:00.797 --> 00:20:10.397
So if you are an egomaniac or a sociopath, like yes, I will respect the position, but you are not going to have my respect truly as a human being, right?
00:20:10.397 --> 00:20:12.837
Because I see how you treat people, right?
00:20:12.837 --> 00:20:16.777
And so that is where you are going to earn respect and trust from folks.
00:20:16.777 --> 00:20:20.857
So the training piece, you 100% need to train this.
00:20:20.857 --> 00:20:23.877
And then, you know, sometimes we call these soft skills, right?
00:20:23.877 --> 00:20:25.457
Interpersonal, they are hard skills.
00:20:25.617 --> 00:20:29.217
They are necessary skills to lead people.
00:20:29.217 --> 00:20:42.817
Like, it should be mandatory in all Fire Service leadership, all First Responder leadership, is this emotionally intelligent leader, they need to be taught how to be emotionally intelligent, or at least trauma-informed, right?
00:20:42.817 --> 00:20:50.957
Yeah, it's crazy that you would have to teach someone to be a human being, but what I have learned is that I am trying to approach things now with more curiosity.
00:20:50.957 --> 00:20:52.937
And so I see where they came from.
00:20:53.457 --> 00:21:13.677
An era where it was suck it up buttercup is where they push their feelings down, and they showed up to work, and they did a job, and in order to survive that 70s and 80s world, they had to push their feelings down, and they had to be that salty, grim, stoic first responder.
00:21:13.677 --> 00:21:26.277
And maybe they have their own shit, their own bullies, their own people that they dealt with, because then before that was the post-war folks that were coming from the military in the war, and they started into the fire service.
00:21:26.277 --> 00:21:40.017
So I look at this generational trauma of the first responder world, and I go, ah, this is the shell-shocked alcoholic era that has evolved into our leadership now.
00:21:40.017 --> 00:21:47.997
And so we're waiting for this wave, this generational wave to just go away and see this birth of a new era.
00:21:48.917 --> 00:21:55.397
And so I'm in now, when I'm dealing with a difficult leader, I go, you know, what's their story?
00:21:55.397 --> 00:21:58.617
You know, we can point our fingers all day at leadership, but we go, what is their story?
00:21:58.617 --> 00:22:00.137
Are they taking good care of themselves?
00:22:00.137 --> 00:22:06.877
Are they feeling the pressure of being in between their employer and the unionized world?
00:22:06.877 --> 00:22:08.997
You know, are they feeling that pressure?
00:22:08.997 --> 00:22:12.197
And so, you know, I have to give them a little bit of grace sometimes.
00:22:12.197 --> 00:22:19.797
And yes, back to the training piece, you know, if we could train them all up, man, that would solve so many of our problems.
00:22:19.797 --> 00:22:25.797
Or just share with them the impact that they can have from their role, from their seat.
00:22:25.797 --> 00:22:27.177
And those are the conversations I have.
00:22:27.177 --> 00:22:33.977
Do you realize when someone is suffering or being bullied, how you show up to them impacts them?
00:22:33.977 --> 00:22:34.497
Yeah.
00:22:34.497 --> 00:22:36.777
And we just got to show them that impact.
00:22:36.777 --> 00:22:37.117
Yeah.
00:22:37.117 --> 00:22:45.497
And when somebody comes forward in that situation, you talked about the open door policy, the real moment of truth is, as you said, what do you do next?
00:22:45.817 --> 00:22:46.837
What happens next?
00:22:46.837 --> 00:22:52.997
Because we know from bullying research that when people stand up, they often become a target.
00:22:52.997 --> 00:23:00.097
And the last thing that you want, if you want anybody to come forward, is retaliation for actually standing up and raising a complaint.
00:23:00.097 --> 00:23:09.757
And this has come out in the United Kingdom in the His Majesty's Inspector of Fire and Rescue Service has been doing quite a lot of cultural reviews over the last year or so.
00:23:09.757 --> 00:23:18.257
And the fear of speaking up is one of the, because people don't believe anything will be done or they become a target themselves.
00:23:18.257 --> 00:23:23.737
And I just wanted to touch, you mentioned the sort of the sandwich with the unions and senior management there.
00:23:23.737 --> 00:23:31.517
And you've got some obviously experience as the executive vice president in the Firefighters' Union in British Columbia.
00:23:31.517 --> 00:23:45.377
From the perspective as a union leader, if somebody comes to you because they've had allegations of bullying made against them and actually you have a role to defend your members.
00:23:45.377 --> 00:23:51.457
But actually in this instance, maybe the member is the person who should be taking a long hard look at themselves.
00:23:51.457 --> 00:23:58.917
How do you approach that as a union representative when allegations are made against people?
00:23:58.917 --> 00:24:07.917
Well, and here lies the challenge is you have a union person bullying another union person potentially, and now we're representing both sides.
00:24:08.057 --> 00:24:10.957
So that in itself is a challenge.
00:24:10.957 --> 00:24:19.857
I guarantee you depending on the size of the organization, in a smaller organization, I know who these people are, I know their personalities, and I likely know the history.
00:24:21.497 --> 00:24:27.257
We can either be part of the solution or we can impede and cause more harm.
00:24:27.257 --> 00:24:31.097
So often when I look at these, and I've dealt with a bunch of these recently.
00:24:31.097 --> 00:24:43.457
In fact, just as we were coming on, I was just reading an email about one right now where a member is feeling completely hopeless and not seen and heard or represented by their union.
00:24:43.457 --> 00:24:47.237
In fact, the allegations are directed at their union.
00:24:47.237 --> 00:24:50.077
And so that's who's blaming and harassing them.
00:24:50.077 --> 00:24:53.337
And so this is a quagmire to be honest.
00:24:54.277 --> 00:25:08.537
And the only way through it, in my opinion, is to take this non-disciplinary approach of guarantee that the bully was bullied before, or they've got some sort of mental health issue, for sure.
00:25:08.537 --> 00:25:15.957
You don't treat other human beings like that without some sort of history or some sort of issue going on in your world, period.
00:25:15.957 --> 00:25:21.297
The person that is feeling harassed, they need to be seen and heard and resourced.
00:25:22.097 --> 00:25:25.397
We spend so much energy saying, are they true?
00:25:25.397 --> 00:25:27.097
Are the allegation is true?
00:25:27.097 --> 00:25:29.037
We're going to do an investigation.
00:25:29.037 --> 00:25:32.757
You've got two people that need help for different reasons.
00:25:33.317 --> 00:25:43.097
This is that curiosity approach and non-disciplinary approach to this whole thing, is to really go and go, I hear you, I understand how you're feeling.
00:25:43.097 --> 00:25:44.477
Let's get you some help.
00:25:44.477 --> 00:25:45.937
What can we do to do that?
00:25:45.937 --> 00:25:48.057
Then how do we deal with the aggressor?
00:25:49.537 --> 00:25:54.317
It needs to be from this supportive, resourced, non-disciplinary approach.
00:25:54.317 --> 00:25:58.617
Like, look, obviously, there's an interpersonal issue here.
00:25:58.617 --> 00:26:00.497
How do we resolve this?
00:26:01.457 --> 00:26:18.777
This fact-finding process, it can be quite harmful if you have leadership that they do this, and they lean back, and they're just this, or there's this history that we need to take this etch-a-sketch and just go, they just give it a shape, and let's just have a clean slate.
00:26:18.777 --> 00:26:20.457
How do we move forward?
00:26:20.457 --> 00:26:26.397
Because people in our industry spend a lifetime in these careers.
00:26:26.397 --> 00:26:32.897
If this is early on in someone's career that this is happening, we've invested a ton of time and energy into this person.
00:26:32.897 --> 00:26:34.797
Both people, truly.
00:26:34.877 --> 00:26:46.717
Maybe someone's later on in their career, it doesn't really matter, is they're an asset, either way, and how do we keep them a positive, fully optimal performing person in our organization?
00:26:46.717 --> 00:26:50.597
If that means to step back and really check ourselves.
00:26:50.597 --> 00:26:56.357
But here, you talk about the role of the union is, were we bullies?
00:26:56.357 --> 00:26:58.457
Were we bullied in our roles?
00:26:58.537 --> 00:27:03.317
Then in the fire leadership roles, were they a bully or were they bullied?
00:27:03.877 --> 00:27:08.317
So this history, really, there's an interplay there, right?
00:27:08.317 --> 00:27:12.437
So it depends on what side of the inner circle they were on.
00:27:12.437 --> 00:27:14.457
That really plays into this.
00:27:14.457 --> 00:27:16.857
That's really a useful way to look at things, isn't it?
00:27:16.857 --> 00:27:22.477
Because one of the things, restorative practices are one way that's being used.
00:27:22.477 --> 00:27:36.457
But you also mentioned trauma-informed, and trauma-informed comes not just from some of the awful incidents that you might have to deal with, but equally the psychological palm that we know is caused from workplace incivility, bullying, and harassment.
00:27:36.457 --> 00:27:38.477
Does the same sort of thing to people.
00:27:38.577 --> 00:27:40.097
I'm talking to Dr.
00:27:40.097 --> 00:27:44.177
Jen Fraser about the author of The Bullied Brain, about the impact that that has.
00:27:44.177 --> 00:27:47.017
So we know that this stuff happens.
00:27:47.017 --> 00:28:11.737
With the kind of the restorative approaches, I guess the trauma-informed side is making sure that the people who've come to you and had the courage to stand up and say, I'm having this problem, whether that's as their captain or as their union representative, is being able to understand the implications of how that trauma has affected them and respecting both their role to participate.
00:28:11.737 --> 00:28:27.637
But on the other side of the coin, as you've mentioned, the person who's had the allegations made against them, there can be some perception that sort of restorative practices are perhaps a soft option or I've heard the phrase a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket.
00:28:27.637 --> 00:28:47.477
Some people might be seen to take advantage of it, but actually facing up to what you've done and being held accountable for behavior that you've carried out and being, you know, acknowledging that and acknowledging your own need to change, that's not a soft option for people.
00:28:47.477 --> 00:28:48.737
That can be quite tricky.
00:28:48.737 --> 00:28:54.117
Have you experienced any of that kind of approach to resolving conflict?
00:28:54.117 --> 00:28:54.797
Yes.
00:28:54.797 --> 00:29:08.077
In fact, you know, to admit that you've hurt somebody truly and being authentic and truly apologetic, it can be challenging because that's an ego piece.
00:29:08.237 --> 00:29:09.617
And I don't mean egotistical.
00:29:09.617 --> 00:29:20.377
It's just like, you know, when you're called out on that behavior and you've had that difficult conversation, and I've done it, like I, my nickname at work has been, is No Filter Farina.
00:29:20.377 --> 00:29:25.777
And so sometimes I've said things that have truly offended people.
00:29:25.777 --> 00:29:29.257
And I've had to eat some crow and that was a very hard thing.
00:29:29.257 --> 00:29:33.137
And I had some very junior people basically call me out.
00:29:33.137 --> 00:29:34.497
And you talk about courage.
00:29:34.497 --> 00:29:36.877
It's the courage to call it out.
00:29:36.877 --> 00:29:40.317
And I had to take a step back and go, you're right.
00:29:40.317 --> 00:29:43.257
I did not mean to hurt you and what I said.
00:29:43.257 --> 00:29:47.617
And I think that's where it starts, is that you have to be open.
00:29:47.617 --> 00:29:50.837
This restorative piece is it's about healing.
00:29:50.837 --> 00:29:56.897
And so you have to know that I admitted in that moment that I was challenged.
00:29:56.897 --> 00:29:59.457
I was going through a separation and there's no excuse to.
00:29:59.457 --> 00:30:02.977
But where I was in my life, I was volatile.
00:30:02.977 --> 00:30:09.517
And so I had to really have a hard look at myself in the mirror and go, shit, you're struggling right now and you're lashing out.
00:30:09.517 --> 00:30:12.817
And I liken to this like holding a beach ball underwater.
00:30:13.657 --> 00:30:20.777
And so when all of the life stresses and it gets bigger and bigger, it's harder to manage and you never know where it's going to pop up.
00:30:20.777 --> 00:30:22.737
And so that's what happens.
00:30:22.737 --> 00:30:34.497
And so if the aggressor, if you will, can truly be remorseful and look at themselves and go, hey, I really hurt this person and how do I heal this wound?
00:30:34.497 --> 00:30:39.457
That's where that process is going to, and if it's accepted and it's genuine and all those pieces.
00:30:39.457 --> 00:30:46.297
But here's the challenge is that these things are insidious or they take years to develop.
00:30:46.297 --> 00:30:50.837
And I think this is where as a leader, we need to be more on top of this.
00:30:50.837 --> 00:30:59.937
So it doesn't get to a point where there's just this so much resentment and animosity and toxicity that that process may not work.
00:30:59.937 --> 00:31:06.457
You know, that restorative piece that you go beyond that, where now it's just, it's a gaping wound.
00:31:06.457 --> 00:31:08.317
It's not just a couple of butterfly bandages.
00:31:08.377 --> 00:31:11.697
You need full on stitches and surgery to repair that.
00:31:11.697 --> 00:31:14.337
And it may, maybe become irreparable.
00:31:14.337 --> 00:31:15.657
Like there may be damage done.
00:31:15.657 --> 00:31:18.697
And I think that's where you see these things is that they're left too long.
00:31:18.697 --> 00:31:20.677
They're not called out soon enough.
00:31:20.677 --> 00:31:25.877
And so this more proactive approach is to nip these things in the bud is really critical.
00:31:25.877 --> 00:31:30.837
And so that process will work if you've got a human being that just has a moment, a moment.
00:31:30.837 --> 00:31:33.117
And I think that's where there's some healing.
00:31:33.117 --> 00:31:37.317
It's a really good point about the timeliness as well, particularly of restorative processes.
00:31:37.397 --> 00:31:48.817
And we would have heard if people have listened to, so three of the podcasts where Jane was telling her experience as an anonymous person for fear of retaliation was telling her story.
00:31:48.817 --> 00:31:59.917
And she's mentioned that, you know, once the investigation findings came through, that yes, the organization moved and accepted that they should do a restorative process, but it was a year later.
00:31:59.917 --> 00:32:01.417
It was a year down the track.
00:32:01.617 --> 00:32:09.997
And she made the very clear point that this would have been useful when it happened, not once people are backed into their own corners.
00:32:09.997 --> 00:32:10.797
Yeah.
00:32:10.797 --> 00:32:12.357
And the damage is done.
00:32:12.357 --> 00:32:19.017
And I just wanted to back up, you know, you talked about that probationary process and what happens there.
00:32:19.017 --> 00:32:23.657
You know, we liken this to ACEs, like those adverse childhood experiences.
00:32:23.657 --> 00:32:25.777
And it is much like that.
00:32:25.777 --> 00:32:32.597
The probationary period is like a form of ACEs, depending on your experience, of course, but it is traumatic.
00:32:32.717 --> 00:32:36.117
But it is a one year of being tested.
00:32:36.117 --> 00:32:39.537
Can you imagine having that experience already as a child?
00:32:39.537 --> 00:32:43.497
And then having another one compounding on top of that?
00:32:43.497 --> 00:32:46.197
It is going to be triggering and bring up a bunch of stuff.
00:32:46.197 --> 00:32:49.517
And so we have to be very cognizant of this when we bring new people in.
00:32:49.517 --> 00:32:53.337
It is that it is not about pre-screening them for that or anything.
00:32:53.397 --> 00:33:00.557
Because what we have found in both Police and Fire through a Resiliency Program is that multiple people come through our program.
00:33:00.557 --> 00:33:05.037
We are talking, we have run over 500 Police and Fire through the program already.
00:33:05.037 --> 00:33:07.677
ACES comes up constantly.
00:33:07.677 --> 00:33:14.497
In fact, abuse, sexual, physical, emotional, that comes up from childhood.
00:33:14.497 --> 00:33:18.337
And usually a large reason of why they got into the Fire Service.
00:33:18.377 --> 00:33:31.077
And so the tie into this bully and harassment and other conflict that happens and trauma and the impact of the job is because people came into the job to protect other people from what happened to them.
00:33:31.077 --> 00:33:39.377
And so we have to have that in the back of our minds as well when we're doing these processes is that, what is the history here?
00:33:39.377 --> 00:33:40.697
And that compounds it, doesn't it?
00:33:40.697 --> 00:33:47.637
Because if you don't handle it well and somebody comes forward, then somebody has gone into that approach.
00:33:47.797 --> 00:33:48.897
We talked about it at the very beginning.
00:33:49.017 --> 00:33:49.997
It's a vocational thing.
00:33:49.997 --> 00:33:53.237
People do this because it's a part of their identity to a large degree.
00:33:53.237 --> 00:33:57.957
They want to be the person that a firefighter represents.
00:33:57.957 --> 00:34:14.817
And then when you actually do step up and come forward, if the organization doesn't respond in the right way, if things are covered up or not dealt with fairly and impartially and dealing with all those conflicts of interest, that adds additional harm to somebody who's already been traumatized.
00:34:15.097 --> 00:34:16.437
That's a fricking movie, yeah.
00:34:16.437 --> 00:34:17.677
There's a couple of things you mentioned there.
00:34:17.677 --> 00:34:39.677
You mentioned the First Responder Project, and that kind of ties as well to what we've said about union representative, because that's a really positive example where unions have worked together well with fire service leaders and fire service management to look after the mental health of people who are involved in whatever their role, whether that's frontline firefighters or through to other support staff.
00:34:39.677 --> 00:34:47.897
I read the report that you sent me on the evaluation of it for people who might not be familiar, what is the First Responder Resiliency Project?
00:34:47.897 --> 00:34:50.997
How did it start and how did you get involved in that?
00:34:50.997 --> 00:34:58.177
Well, I love the story because it started with a conversation with another firefighter, his name is Tony Speese.
00:34:58.177 --> 00:35:04.917
He was a military vet and he and two doctors started the Veterans Transition Program.
00:35:04.917 --> 00:35:12.037
So people came back from Bosnia and Afghanistan to transition back to civilian life and they created this program, the Veterans Transition Program.
00:35:12.617 --> 00:35:24.637
And we were basically working a side job, ironically, confined space, rescue, and we started talking about our people around us that were suffering, like in silence.
00:35:24.637 --> 00:35:27.457
And so, you know, we were like, we really should do something about this.
00:35:27.457 --> 00:35:31.177
And so he started talking about this Veterans Transition Program, so we should do this for firefighters.
00:35:31.177 --> 00:35:32.557
And I'm like, hell yeah.
00:35:32.557 --> 00:35:38.517
And I just happened to be transitioning into my new role, is into the Provincial Association.
00:35:38.517 --> 00:35:39.857
And I said, let's do this.
00:35:39.857 --> 00:35:41.117
So he introduced me to Dr.
00:35:41.117 --> 00:35:42.197
Duncan Shields.
00:35:42.197 --> 00:35:52.817
You know, he was a registered clinical counselor at the time, and now he's a psychologist, you know, with glasses, just the atypical Sigmund Freud lay on a couch kind of guy, wearing a sweater.
00:35:52.817 --> 00:35:55.557
And he started talking.
00:35:55.557 --> 00:35:57.977
And I said, we're doing this.
00:35:57.977 --> 00:35:59.717
And we need to do something.
00:35:59.717 --> 00:36:05.017
And it was on the heels of two back-to-back suicides in a local fire department.
00:36:05.117 --> 00:36:07.797
They were seven weeks apart.
00:36:07.797 --> 00:36:11.757
And so that rocked our world in the fire service locally.
00:36:11.757 --> 00:36:13.857
And it just sent ripple effects through.
00:36:13.857 --> 00:36:16.897
And we were like, holy crap, we got to do something with this.
00:36:16.897 --> 00:36:21.337
And simultaneously, our own association created a mental health task force.
00:36:21.337 --> 00:36:28.457
And then the government and our workers' comms system basically created a first responder committee to look at this.
00:36:28.457 --> 00:36:33.257
Because there was multiple firefighter suicides, and then we had some police suicides.
00:36:33.257 --> 00:36:34.737
And it was like enough is enough.
00:36:34.917 --> 00:36:37.677
Like we got to look at this.
00:36:37.677 --> 00:36:42.917
And so in conjunction with all the committee work and all that other stuff is that we created this.
00:36:42.917 --> 00:36:46.137
We wanted to replicate this program.
00:36:46.137 --> 00:36:49.777
And we started off with some interviews to really find out where the needs were.
00:36:49.777 --> 00:36:52.357
We interviewed 30 firefighters.
00:36:52.357 --> 00:36:58.477
Duncan and Diane, they actually did 30 long interviews with junior people to senior people.
00:36:58.477 --> 00:37:11.537
And so from those interviews, we created the resiliency program and created a three and a half day intensive group therapy, kind of psychoeducation piece where we'd come and have two facilitators.
00:37:11.537 --> 00:37:14.937
And we had a couple of firefighter facilitators to kind of break the ice.
00:37:14.937 --> 00:37:16.697
And we started with his pilot.
00:37:16.697 --> 00:37:30.637
And what happened from that, you know, to talk about culture change is that when the word got out that you could come here in a safe place, free of judgment and open up about where you were at, there was so much healing.
00:37:31.417 --> 00:37:36.657
It just was like a ripple effect that changed the culture, the fire culture in BC.
00:37:36.657 --> 00:37:42.797
You know, I mentioned we've got over 320 firefighters from across Canada now go through this program.
00:37:42.797 --> 00:37:49.737
And now we've got these mental health champions in the fire departments giving others permission to take a knee.
00:37:49.737 --> 00:37:51.737
And this is not inpatient treatment.
00:37:51.737 --> 00:37:53.257
This is a three and a half day.
00:37:53.297 --> 00:37:54.197
And they're long days.
00:37:54.197 --> 00:37:58.897
I finally went through our own program and it was life changing.
00:37:58.897 --> 00:38:03.197
And some of the feedback from this is we do screening.
00:38:03.197 --> 00:38:06.497
We literally stream for suicide ideation.
00:38:06.497 --> 00:38:09.817
You know, we don't allow people that have substance use issues in there.
00:38:09.817 --> 00:38:19.237
And so there's a, you know, it's quite an extensive screening piece, but so many people have come through and later have said, I was fully suicidal before I came to their program.
00:38:19.237 --> 00:38:20.517
And we're just like blown away.
00:38:20.537 --> 00:38:23.457
And this is a hidden aspect of our job where people hide it so well.
00:38:23.457 --> 00:38:25.157
They're functioning at work.
00:38:25.157 --> 00:38:26.737
They are functioning at home.
00:38:26.737 --> 00:38:29.677
Yet they are basically crumbling inside.
00:38:29.677 --> 00:38:31.417
And so they come through a program.
00:38:31.417 --> 00:38:34.457
There's a seven kilometer drive up a gravel road to get to this.
00:38:34.457 --> 00:38:38.657
And they're like looking at every tree along the way, where can I drive my car into this?
00:38:38.657 --> 00:38:41.837
And so after they're like, you saved my life.
00:38:41.837 --> 00:38:44.937
And we always say, no, you did all the heavy lifting.
00:38:44.937 --> 00:38:47.457
We just put you in a seat where you felt safe.
00:38:48.297 --> 00:38:51.177
And you could be vulnerable and share your story.
00:38:51.177 --> 00:38:53.117
And so the impact has been amazing.
00:38:53.117 --> 00:38:55.217
And we've just, you know, you saw the report.
00:38:55.217 --> 00:39:01.597
All of the scores for PTSD, depression, you know, have all dropped below thresholds.
00:39:01.597 --> 00:39:04.357
And it's stuck three and six months later.
00:39:04.357 --> 00:39:08.597
And we'd love to do a follow up to that, but it's literally saved lives.
00:39:08.597 --> 00:39:10.397
So it's been a really cool journey.
00:39:10.397 --> 00:39:26.957
One of the things we know about workplace bullying and harassment, for example, is that it does create that kind of psychological harm, and particularly where people feel isolated, they feel othered, or they're not supported in the way that they should be by the organization.
00:39:27.177 --> 00:39:35.517
And the research papers are there, and there's higher instances of cardiovascular illness, of depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, all of those things.
00:39:35.517 --> 00:40:06.817
So you can see from the results of what you've seen with this program, that when you support and talk to people in a safe environment, you're moving them from a position where they are having to hide what's happening to them for fear of the same reasons they don't report, through to actually being able to develop, to have trust in, must have trust in the organization and the, that's helped them go through this, and is supporting them going through this.
00:40:06.817 --> 00:40:09.697
It starts to kind of heal that damage, doesn't it?
00:40:09.697 --> 00:40:10.777
It starts to build trust in what's going on.
00:40:10.777 --> 00:40:16.797
I think that comes through in the results of the report that you've highlighted, which I'll include as well in the show notes for people.
00:40:16.797 --> 00:40:17.297
Yeah.
00:40:17.297 --> 00:40:22.057
You have a guest coming who's going to talk about throwing them back into the fire or a dirty pond.
00:40:22.057 --> 00:40:22.657
That was Jane.
00:40:22.657 --> 00:40:23.237
Jane, yeah.
00:40:23.237 --> 00:40:28.477
Jane, back in episode three, throwing the fish back into the toxic pond and expecting it to get better.
00:40:28.477 --> 00:40:28.997
Yeah.
00:40:28.997 --> 00:40:41.617
And so that rings true from what we do in our program is that you can take someone out of a toxic organization and get them on a healing journey, but you put them back in that toxic organization, you're going to hurt them again.
00:40:41.617 --> 00:40:47.997
And so how do you fix that organization or convince the people that are in leadership that they're part of the problem?
00:40:47.997 --> 00:40:59.477
And how do you do that respectfully, discreetly, or just call it out and say, and this is where the help of the compensation system, the workers' comp, would really come in handy is to basically do an audit.
00:40:59.477 --> 00:41:05.397
Much like we do for a physical injury, you have a firefighter that's fallen off a ladder, you're going to find out what their ladder practices are.
00:41:06.137 --> 00:41:13.117
If you have people that are psychologically injured, they need to go in there and do an audit of why they're being psychologically injured.
00:41:13.117 --> 00:41:18.957
Now, is it because of the traumatic calls they see, or is it the stress of bullying, harassment, or whatever it is?
00:41:18.957 --> 00:41:24.497
What are the core reasons why that person is being injured?
00:41:24.497 --> 00:41:30.477
I think that's what needs to happen to fix that dirty pond, is you got to go in there and clean it out.
00:41:30.477 --> 00:41:37.857
You got to install a new filter, or pour bleach in it, or whatever it is.
00:41:37.857 --> 00:41:41.777
It's got to get cleaned up, or you're just going to continue to reinsure people.
00:41:43.117 --> 00:41:44.397
I continue to see that.
00:41:44.397 --> 00:41:48.257
We can fix people all day long, but if you put them back, you're just going to hurt them again.
00:41:48.657 --> 00:41:57.477
The job itself is not going to change, but the support structure and how those leadership people handle that, and even just the culture of the members themselves.
00:41:57.477 --> 00:42:00.977
How do you change that culture where you come back from falling off a ladder?
00:42:01.077 --> 00:42:02.697
I use that analogy again.
00:42:02.697 --> 00:42:03.917
You're a cool firefighter.
00:42:03.917 --> 00:42:06.617
You were fighting a fire, you fell off the roof or whatever.
00:42:06.617 --> 00:42:07.537
You're welcome back.
00:42:07.537 --> 00:42:09.477
You come back from a psychological injury.
00:42:09.477 --> 00:42:10.797
How are you welcome back?
00:42:10.797 --> 00:42:11.817
Do I trust you?
00:42:11.817 --> 00:42:14.937
Is this guy going to be the gal going to be the weak link now?
00:42:14.937 --> 00:42:18.917
There's this stigma around that return where it should be celebrated.
00:42:18.917 --> 00:42:19.557
Good for you.
00:42:19.557 --> 00:42:20.817
You fixed your brain.
00:42:20.817 --> 00:42:23.277
You injured your brain, you fixed your brain.
00:42:24.357 --> 00:42:25.217
It's harder to see.
00:42:25.217 --> 00:42:28.417
You can see the gal, her cast is removed.
00:42:28.837 --> 00:42:29.217
Perfect.
00:42:29.217 --> 00:42:29.857
You're back.
00:42:29.857 --> 00:42:31.017
You got physio rehab.
00:42:31.017 --> 00:42:32.057
You're here.
00:42:32.057 --> 00:42:35.637
It's so much harder to prove that you're good to go.
00:42:35.857 --> 00:42:40.357
It's a really good analogy with the physical injury versus the psychological injury.
00:42:40.357 --> 00:42:47.797
But what you've just said there about stigma and people not really understanding how that's affected somebody.
00:42:47.797 --> 00:43:02.517
The analogy that I use is if you've suffered workplace bullying or harassment, it's rather like if somebody punched you in the face and you were bleeding all over the floor, the first thing they shouldn't do is turn around and blame you for making a mess on the floor, because they've just punched you in the face.
00:43:02.517 --> 00:43:06.277
So you're not the problem.
00:43:06.277 --> 00:43:09.937
You put it in the context of a physical injury like falling off a ladder or something.
00:43:09.937 --> 00:43:14.937
It's if somebody came up and just tip the ladder over and then say, well, why the hell do you fall off that ladder?
00:43:14.937 --> 00:43:17.637
That would be completely unacceptable.
00:43:19.077 --> 00:43:29.857
And you talked about just kind of last question on this one, really, because I've spoken in another podcast to Mark Bouchard, who's done a lot of work from his experience in the police and his book on dealing with stigma.
00:43:29.857 --> 00:43:31.817
He's got some really good points in that.
00:43:31.817 --> 00:43:39.097
How do you think that Fire Services can change that culture to lessen the stigma around mental health?
00:43:39.097 --> 00:43:42.717
Your program has been a great success in its actual results.
00:43:42.717 --> 00:43:52.177
How do you get that message across to people in leadership in Fire Services who might want to take it up and invest in that program or run it in their own services?
00:43:52.177 --> 00:43:55.777
We need to call it out for ourselves first.
00:43:55.777 --> 00:43:59.077
If we want to champion something, we have to take a hard look at ourselves.
00:43:59.077 --> 00:44:02.757
And I think that's what's holding us back.
00:44:02.757 --> 00:44:17.137
That's the barrier, truly, is that leadership, whether you're Fire Administration, Union Leader or anybody in the world that is in a role that can make influence to change that culture, is they have to take a hard look at themselves.
00:44:17.157 --> 00:44:18.477
Are they happy?
00:44:18.477 --> 00:44:20.157
Are they healthy?
00:44:20.157 --> 00:44:22.217
Do they have good self-care practices?
00:44:22.217 --> 00:44:25.557
Have they dealt with their history, their trauma?
00:44:25.557 --> 00:44:28.437
Are they a good mentor and a good model for that?
00:44:28.437 --> 00:44:30.177
That's where it starts.
00:44:30.177 --> 00:44:32.477
It's not about looking at the organization first.
00:44:32.477 --> 00:44:38.437
It's like looking at yourself first and leading from a place of health.
00:44:38.437 --> 00:44:43.457
And I think that's where we have to have those difficult conversations and call it out.
00:44:43.777 --> 00:44:46.677
Say, really look in the mirror first.
00:44:46.677 --> 00:44:57.917
And then we can start looking at modeling good behavior and creating a psychologically safe workplace by modeling good behavior and making sure to hold other people to account.
00:44:57.917 --> 00:44:59.577
I think that's where it starts.
00:44:59.577 --> 00:45:01.397
But it's also, you know, that stigma piece.
00:45:01.397 --> 00:45:08.217
It's like giving people permission to take a knee, to celebrate that courage that is required to do that.
00:45:08.217 --> 00:45:11.097
You know, if someone reaches out, is to be there and catch them.
00:45:11.477 --> 00:45:15.417
And, you know, be a tribe and reinforce those principles.
00:45:15.417 --> 00:45:18.817
You know, really, the core of it all is just being good human beings.
00:45:18.817 --> 00:45:21.257
Because we're in a tough profession already.
00:45:21.257 --> 00:45:24.837
You know, police are heavily scrutinized, tons of stigma.
00:45:24.837 --> 00:45:27.797
If you show any weakness, they're going to take away your gun.
00:45:27.797 --> 00:45:30.597
And they're going to, you know, off you go to loony land.
00:45:30.597 --> 00:45:36.497
So, there's like, you have to kind of change that perspective where it's okay to not be okay.
00:45:36.497 --> 00:45:38.737
And we're going to, you know, resource you.
00:45:39.057 --> 00:45:45.577
So, approaching things with curiosity, all those things that I mentioned before, it's not just one thing.
00:45:45.577 --> 00:45:47.397
It's a pillared approach to change culture.
00:45:47.397 --> 00:45:50.437
And, you know, you're going to, hopefully you'll have my friend, Matt Johnson on.
00:45:50.437 --> 00:45:56.737
And he's going to talk about this pillared approach where you have to have a tribe of health care professionals that understand our world.
00:45:56.737 --> 00:45:58.957
Yeah, HR has to understand our world.
00:45:58.957 --> 00:46:08.017
Trauma-informed leadership, education and awareness for the entire organization, for all the people, so that we're all speaking the same language, and leadership training.
00:46:08.457 --> 00:46:17.557
And so, you have to have all these pillars in place and good extended health benefits and all of the likes in order to really get upstream.
00:46:17.557 --> 00:46:32.737
And I think that's where the focus for whether it's bullying and civility, you know, EDI, all of that stuff upstream is through education and awareness and, you know, truly practicing what you preach and not just doing it being a checkbox.
00:46:32.737 --> 00:46:35.837
So, really believing in it and being genuine about it.
00:46:35.837 --> 00:46:37.757
And that's what we'll see a shift for sure.
00:46:38.257 --> 00:46:51.157
You know, it's so hard, like, I just there's a great fire chief up north who just, and there's another new fire chief in our neighbouring fire department here, who created an agreement between the union and the management.
00:46:51.157 --> 00:46:55.577
Outside of a collective agreement, it was about how to deal with each other respectfully.
00:46:55.577 --> 00:46:59.257
And it was about how we're going to communicate, how we're going to resolve problems.
00:46:59.257 --> 00:47:09.437
And it's a very common in the business world, I would imagine, but it's new, kind of a new thing in the fire services, where we're going to agree to work together instead of having all of this conflict.
00:47:09.437 --> 00:47:20.377
And I think the union has had a history of, maybe perhaps being defiant or adversarial at times.
00:47:20.377 --> 00:47:27.337
And our job is to protect, but our job is also to make sure things are fair and that we're represented.
00:47:27.337 --> 00:47:37.837
And I think having these agreements in place, that's where you're going to see a shift, is where we approach things with curiosity and a mindset to resolve issues and work together.
00:47:37.837 --> 00:47:41.237
And eventually, I think you'll see the needle move, for sure.
00:47:41.237 --> 00:47:45.137
But it's having that hard look at yourself first, is really where it starts.
00:47:45.177 --> 00:47:46.617
That's a cracking point, isn't it?
00:47:46.617 --> 00:47:54.057
Because leadership, we talk about the organization and this phrase banded around the organization like an ethereal thing.
00:47:54.057 --> 00:48:02.517
But ultimately, change happens when individuals make a decision to do something differently, whether that's the person standing next to you.
00:48:02.917 --> 00:48:29.777
And in a leadership context, the organization is actually a series of individuals in positions of leadership authority who are making conscious decisions to either do something right and act with integrity, or when presented with something that might be challenging or embarrassing for them, actually to act in a way that doesn't demonstrate the same integrity and you can't build trust without integrity.
00:48:30.737 --> 00:48:37.777
So, you know, that example of a union working together with leadership, it's about somebody standing up and going, yep, I'm going to agree to do this.
00:48:37.777 --> 00:48:39.237
This is the right thing to do.
00:48:39.237 --> 00:49:02.997
And having the, there's a phrase, institutional courage, the opposite to institutional betrayal, the institutional courage of a senior leader to stand up and go, no, actually, I'm going to make the right decision, even though it may be painful or we've done something embarrassing, having the courage to show that we got this wrong and that we're going to act in an ethical way is how that path gets built, isn't it?
00:49:02.997 --> 00:49:05.117
From, you know, not blaming the system.
00:49:05.117 --> 00:49:07.537
The system is people making decisions.
00:49:07.537 --> 00:49:07.817
Yeah.
00:49:07.817 --> 00:49:11.477
They need to decide on how they're going to work.
00:49:11.477 --> 00:49:12.397
Love that.
00:49:12.397 --> 00:49:15.437
I'm sure you've read this book about extreme ownership.
00:49:15.437 --> 00:49:21.277
It's about literally being accountable for everything, whether it's your fault or not, having extreme accountability.
00:49:21.277 --> 00:49:33.017
And I think to your point is getting over that shame, embarrassment, you know, organizationally or personally, taking ownership over that, extreme ownership.
00:49:33.017 --> 00:49:34.877
And I have done this in my own personal life.
00:49:34.877 --> 00:49:35.617
It's like, you know what?
00:49:35.617 --> 00:49:37.157
I screwed up.
00:49:37.157 --> 00:49:42.457
I'm taking full responsibility for this, but I want to move forward and find a result.
00:49:42.457 --> 00:49:46.217
And so it is hard on the ego to do that.
00:49:46.217 --> 00:49:52.897
But you're going to earn so much more respect by being accountable for your stuff and showing other people that it's okay.
00:49:53.737 --> 00:49:55.617
I'm a human being, I make mistakes.
00:49:55.617 --> 00:50:02.237
And if you're genuinely remorseful and want to learn and grow from that, why wouldn't you want to work with that?
00:50:02.237 --> 00:50:07.597
And I have so much more respect for people that go like, and it shows that they're a human being and they're not infallible.
00:50:07.597 --> 00:50:11.057
And it's just like, yes, thank you for showing me that.
00:50:11.057 --> 00:50:12.937
And I'm going to give you some grace.
00:50:12.937 --> 00:50:27.717
And I'm going to be curious about why you made that decision, or maybe it was just a lack of understanding or ignorance or other, or maybe you're really struggling in your own world, and you were just not handling things well in that moment, and give them a chance to resolve that.
00:50:27.717 --> 00:50:33.377
So I think that extreme accountability piece in that context that you talk about is like, get over it.
00:50:33.377 --> 00:50:34.417
You made a mistake.
00:50:34.417 --> 00:50:35.537
Own it.
00:50:35.537 --> 00:50:43.017
Honestly, instead of spending all this energy to try and, you know, smoke and mirror it, just own it.
00:50:43.057 --> 00:50:44.117
And people will see.
00:50:44.117 --> 00:50:49.077
People watch what happens with leaders, and they watch what happens to others when leaders make decisions.
00:50:49.077 --> 00:50:53.537
And your credibility is not about what you say.
00:50:53.537 --> 00:50:58.397
It's around what people see that has actually happened as a consequence, like with your program.
00:50:58.397 --> 00:51:14.737
The credibility of the First Responder Program, you don't, you can talk about how great it is, but actually, when somebody independent has come in and looked at the results of that, you've got some data there that shows that this is a success, and it helps people recover from the problem.
00:51:14.737 --> 00:51:24.157
Now, if we can stop people having the problem in the first place through less stigma and better things, but people will obviously always have to deal with the kind of incidents that cause some of that trauma.
00:51:24.157 --> 00:51:40.277
One question I didn't ask earlier, which I might try and get in if I can, the geographic scope of the program, it's running in Canada, and I think the report was done by the University of Canberra over in Australia, and it mentions that it's been picked up by an Australian fire service.
00:51:40.417 --> 00:51:46.097
Is it something that's available globally to other fire and rescue services if they wanted to pick up on it?
00:51:46.097 --> 00:51:48.017
It's coast to coast now in Canada.
00:51:48.017 --> 00:52:11.877
So I have from Vancouver Island on the West Coast to Halifax on the East Coast, and everything in between, we've had firefighters, even a fellow out of Washington DC out of the US, and ESF, the Emergency Services Foundation out of Victoria in Australia, have basically based their wellness program on our program here in Canada.
00:52:11.877 --> 00:52:15.617
I believe they've run three programs so far.
00:52:15.617 --> 00:52:26.257
They've taken it and I think they've supercharged it because they've really brought the family component in and they've got this gorgeous, we've got a beautiful setting as well, but they've taken it to the next level.
00:52:26.257 --> 00:52:27.097
And I love that.
00:52:27.097 --> 00:52:28.697
I love that it's cloned.
00:52:28.697 --> 00:52:34.877
So, you know, that neck of the woods, and they have it open to all first responders, which is a little bit different.
00:52:34.877 --> 00:52:37.937
Ours began as a firefighter program.
00:52:37.937 --> 00:52:45.397
We were able to get some, a few paramedics through, some volunteer firefighters, but it's mostly been career firefighters in ours.
00:52:45.397 --> 00:52:50.057
And I've been able to get, I think I did a full on program just with fire chiefs.
00:52:50.477 --> 00:52:54.997
So basically, so I could create some champions within the leadership world.
00:52:54.997 --> 00:52:56.517
We did that early on.
00:52:56.517 --> 00:52:58.237
And it's going to grow.
00:52:58.237 --> 00:53:02.497
Through Blueprint is the non-profit, the NGO that Dr.
00:53:02.497 --> 00:53:03.257
Shields and Dr.
00:53:03.257 --> 00:53:04.597
Cool are part of.
00:53:04.597 --> 00:53:10.097
And they want to, they basically want to create a curriculum to teach other people to do this program.
00:53:10.097 --> 00:53:14.197
Now Australia came, observed, and they had their own idea and they did their thing.
00:53:14.197 --> 00:53:17.017
But what we want to do in Canada is operationalize it.
00:53:17.017 --> 00:53:25.417
So basically, you identify the clinicians, you identify a location, we have the curriculum, and basically you're going to do a bit of a ride along.
00:53:25.417 --> 00:53:33.717
And so it will be literally teaching other people how to facilitate, how we do our group facilitation, sell it as a course, how to run these programs.
00:53:33.717 --> 00:53:40.897
So that's the future, and I'm hoping that we get a government grant so that we can do that and actually create some scalability.
00:53:40.897 --> 00:53:47.997
I think that was part of the Movember grant that we got to run the program for two years, is we got an additional grant to scale it up.
00:53:48.737 --> 00:53:50.837
And so that's happening in the background right now.
00:53:50.837 --> 00:54:07.637
So globally, I haven't had anybody outside of Canada come through our program yet, but I love what Australia is doing, and I'd love to see this as a global initiative eventually, but we want to keep it small and it's a magic in facilitation.
00:54:07.637 --> 00:54:10.877
So it's truly getting people that can connect with those groups.
00:54:10.877 --> 00:54:13.437
So it's an art form, truly.
00:54:13.437 --> 00:54:22.617
And I think if we can identify some mental health professionals that have a really good connection and understanding of the first responders, that's where we're going to see it grow.
00:54:22.617 --> 00:54:25.237
Now we've already built a police program, did the same thing.
00:54:25.257 --> 00:54:31.517
30, we did a bunch of interviews, and so the police have their own very similar program, but it's police specific.
00:54:31.517 --> 00:54:38.857
And so I'd love to see this grow and get bigger for sure, because there's something really magical about group work.
00:54:38.857 --> 00:54:43.417
You can do individual counseling once a week for freaking three years and not get any movement.
00:54:43.857 --> 00:54:56.317
We see massive shifts in mental health into positive mental health in just three and a half days, because it's heavy lifting, your shoulder to shoulder with your peers, and you get some really good education.
00:54:56.317 --> 00:54:58.077
But there's something really interesting.
00:54:58.077 --> 00:55:03.777
I'd love to do some imaging of brains to see the changes that happen within that group work.
00:55:03.777 --> 00:55:04.637
Fantastic.
00:55:04.637 --> 00:55:13.557
If people, you know, you talk about it being more widely available internationally, if any firefighters are listening to this podcast, tell all your friends about the podcast.
00:55:13.557 --> 00:55:18.737
Share it and share Steve's message on the podcast, and maybe somebody will pick that up and get to you.
00:55:18.737 --> 00:55:28.557
Where can people get in touch with you if they want to find out more about you, your work, the First Responder Resiliency Project, and if they did want to get in touch to talk about it?
00:55:28.557 --> 00:55:34.997
So they can Google the BC Firefighter Resiliency Program, and it would, I think on the Google search, it would pop up.
00:55:34.997 --> 00:55:41.697
But if you look up the BC Provincial Firefighters Association, you'll be able to see my contact information there.
00:55:41.697 --> 00:55:43.017
I can share that with you as well.
00:55:43.017 --> 00:55:46.637
You've got my email, so feel free to share mainlandnorth.bcffa.org.
00:55:49.937 --> 00:55:52.277
And so yeah, by all means reach out.
00:55:52.277 --> 00:55:53.077
Thanks very much, Steve.
00:55:53.077 --> 00:55:54.857
That's been fantastic to talk to you.
00:55:54.857 --> 00:56:02.457
I'm really good to hear of the success that you've had in the podcast, and we'll pop all those links in the show notes for people if they want to get in touch.
00:56:02.457 --> 00:56:03.117
Fantastic.
00:56:03.117 --> 00:56:03.957
Been a pleasure, Jason.
00:56:10.498 --> 00:56:24.318
Steve's observation that firefighters don't like things changing, but we hate things staying the same, is perhaps an interesting reflection on the challenge facing fire and rescue services with cultural change.
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Change is needed, but it's often uncomfortable.
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No one raindrop ever feels it's responsible for the flood, so it's easier to say that it's somebody else's responsibility.
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But without the individual raindrops, there would be no flood.
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So everyone does have a part to play.
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Steve's reflections on the importance of mental health, on the stresses that first responders have to deal with, and how this can affect them, remind us of the importance of leaders getting to know the whole person.
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We've heard about the difference between positional authority and genuine leadership.
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Just being a good human being is a phrase that Steve used throughout this episode.
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The results of the British Columbia Firefighter Resiliency Program are impressive, as is the feedback that Steve's received directly about the difference it's made to people's lives.
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It has literally saved lives.
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When we see participation and cooperation between unions and fire service management achieving so much, when we see what can be done when people focus on the well-being of those who are standing alongside them, why would we not lead with humanity and respect for others?
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Nobody in any workplace should be facing hostility, exclusion and the kind of negative behaviour we see with workplace incivility, bullying and harassment, let alone emergency services where people's lives depend on the person next to them.
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So let's follow Steve's advice.
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Be a good human, show a genuine interest in the people you're leading and be there for them if they need to take a knee and ask for support.
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Don't be the person who's making them ask for help.
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I hope you found this episode interesting and you'll find a show notes at priceperrott.com, that's with a double R and a double T.
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Would you like to know more?
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You can sign up to stay informed about a whole range of other content that goes beyond bullet points to help you succeed in achieving a high-performing workplace culture.
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Don't forget to subscribe wherever you found this podcast, leave a review and tell all your friends and colleagues what you learned from today's episode.
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I'm Dr Jason Price.
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Join me again next time for more insights from Life at the Sharp End.