Freedom from Mental Captivity: Insights on Mediation and Workplace Communication

WEBVTT
00:00:04.408 --> 00:00:08.967
Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership, where we unpack the art of business leadership.
00:00:09.907 --> 00:00:16.538
I'm your host, Emily Sander, executive advisor to founders, CEOs, leadership teams, and chiefs of staff.
00:00:17.827 --> 00:00:25.108
This show is all about finding your points of greatest influence and leveraging them to better serve those around you.
00:00:28.841 --> 00:00:39.005
My guest today is Stan Lewis, a leadership and communication expert with deep experience as a former OSHA supervisory federal investigator and mediator.
00:00:39.405 --> 00:00:46.575
Stan helps leaders overcome limiting beliefs and mental captivities to unlock their true potential.
00:00:46.575 --> 00:00:51.585
He shares actionable insights and his proprietary freedom from mental captivity framework.
00:00:51.825 --> 00:00:53.344
Stan, welcome to the show
00:00:54.063 --> 00:01:02.902
Hey, I'm glad to be on your show, and this is something I've been wanting to do for a long, long time, so thank you for allowing me to, to speak with you today
00:01:03.310 --> 00:01:03.890
Can't wait.
00:01:04.210 --> 00:01:10.120
So just to remind folks, what is OSHA, to kind of set the stage, and what does OSHA Negotiator do?
00:01:10.150 --> 00:01:12.570
Just to kind of get people up to speed here.
00:01:13.230 --> 00:01:17.301
Well, for some people, it's another four-letter word, you know, whenever they hear OSHA.
00:01:17.850 --> 00:01:26.090
I, I remember walking into a Lowe's one day, and I had my OSHA shirt on, and, and I don't even work on the safety and compliance side.
00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:30.911
I, I was a whistleblower investigator, but people were running, going,"OSHA's here.
00:01:31.320 --> 00:01:34.290
Uh, let's get the safety person." It's like,"Whoa, whoa, whoa, timeout.
00:01:34.331 --> 00:01:43.281
I'm just here to shop like everybody else." OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
00:01:43.281 --> 00:01:45.730
So there's two sides of OSHA.
00:01:46.650 --> 00:01:54.590
The one that most people know about is the safety side, our compliance safety and health officers, our industrial hygienists.
00:01:55.061 --> 00:02:03.450
They come out and do work site inspections and making sure that the work site is safe for, uh, the American worker.
00:02:04.290 --> 00:02:18.520
Then you have the other side of the house, the whistleblower investigators, we enforce 25 different whistleblower statutes, including the OSHA Act of 1970, Section 11(c), which deals with health and safety.
00:02:19.311 --> 00:02:31.100
But what some people don't know is like, uh, banking, uh, transportation industry, uh, you know, multiple industries, food safety.
00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:44.510
We do the whistleblower statutes that fall in those areas, and we investigate those, and if we find that, you know, uh, somebody's rights were violated, we can take s- the appropriate civil action.
00:02:44.510 --> 00:02:51.681
And sometimes we go in and the company was 100% in the right, and we get off on that side of the fence also
00:02:52.302 --> 00:02:52.673
Hmm.
00:02:53.233 --> 00:03:05.043
And it seems, I mean, important work you're doing of course, but it seems like the best course of action would be to prevent any cases or whistleblower incidents or anything like this.
00:03:05.062 --> 00:03:07.883
Is that kind of the first recommendation and course of action for folks?
00:03:08.525 --> 00:03:09.805
Absolutely.
00:03:09.865 --> 00:03:23.615
Let me tell you, a lot of times when I would get into a whistleblower case, particularly as a mediator, I start to really dig down deep, it was not just a whistleblower issue, it was a communication issue.
00:03:25.314 --> 00:03:40.474
And so sometime we, we need to have a little bit more training with our, a lot of times with our lower level managers and employees also, to not get upset if somebody comes and they point out something that doesn't seem right.
00:03:41.384 --> 00:03:44.465
That, that's not an attack on you personally.
00:03:44.534 --> 00:03:45.944
Uh, if it's right, it's right.
00:03:45.944 --> 00:03:47.155
If it's wrong, it's wrong.
00:03:48.115 --> 00:03:48.335
it.
00:03:48.664 --> 00:03:52.504
But if it's right, you educate the, uh, worker.
00:03:52.675 --> 00:03:54.014
Let me give you an example for that.
00:03:54.425 --> 00:03:56.985
People don't know you could call OSHA.
00:03:57.044 --> 00:04:05.125
Let's say a individual has a complaint, a safety complaint, and they feel that they're right about it, the company feels one way.
00:04:05.145 --> 00:04:07.115
Just pick up the phone and call OSHA.
00:04:07.564 --> 00:04:10.735
They have an enforcement and an education
00:04:11.031 --> 00:04:11.441
Ah.
00:04:12.814 --> 00:04:18.045
And so they would rather educate than come out to the, the workplace.
00:04:18.324 --> 00:04:31.074
And you can simply ask them and say,"Hey, listen, we have this set up like this, and we wanna know if we're doing it right." And of course, they'll speak into that because, again, they have a mandate on education also.
00:04:32.295 --> 00:04:34.964
if-- And there have been times when we come in and say,"Yep, you know what?
00:04:34.964 --> 00:04:42.024
The company's absolutely right," and we'll tell that employee, right about the way that they're, they're handling safety there."
00:04:43.404 --> 00:04:46.774
That's an important branch to mention,'cause I did not know they had a education mandate.
00:04:46.814 --> 00:04:48.964
I am assuming some of our listeners don't as well.
00:04:48.964 --> 00:04:50.254
So thank you for sharing that.
00:04:50.274 --> 00:05:04.944
And I think, you know, it, it- if one side of your entire organization is dedicated to education, they would love for someone to call them and say,"Hey, we have a question about this," and that front-runs potential issues.
00:05:05.154 --> 00:05:06.795
So thank you for mentioning that.
00:05:07.584 --> 00:05:12.495
You also mentioned communication was huge, and I can only imagine how huge.
00:05:12.754 --> 00:05:24.095
Um, I, I am a huge proponent of communication and all those skills and all those frameworks and things like that, but I think a OSHA mediation kind of takes some things to the next level there.
00:05:24.105 --> 00:05:34.915
So tell us a little bit about, okay, if you can't prevent something, if you investigate and it is a valid claim, then what happens from there, and what are some of the, the tools that you use to approach that?
00:05:35.588 --> 00:05:44.499
If you're a chief of staff, of course you're gonna be in contact-- Most companies that have a chief of staff, they, they normally have type of general counsel office.
00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:59.449
Meet with them, sit down, and if there's some there there, one of the things you can do is to reach out early for resolution and contact, uh, your, your attorney and say,"Hey, let's, let's contact OSHA.
00:05:59.459 --> 00:06:07.168
Let's just see if we can get this thing into their alternative dispute resolution program," sit down with the individual while it's early.
00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:12.918
While the person-- You, you may have-- person may have been terminated a week or two weeks.
00:06:12.978 --> 00:06:16.699
There, there's not a whole lot of damages there at that point.
00:06:17.459 --> 00:06:24.418
if you determine, yeah, you know, we might have some liability there, don't necessarily have to go out and tell the other side that.
00:06:24.418 --> 00:06:36.108
You could just sit down with one of OSHA's ADR, uh, coordinators, or you could contact me because I do private mediations, and I'll come in and sit down and, and work things out with both sides.
00:06:36.538 --> 00:06:49.028
But the key thing is early resolution cost the company a whole lot less money, particularly if you think you have some liability there
00:06:49.988 --> 00:06:50.939
Yes, certainly.
00:06:51.059 --> 00:07:03.059
And I've been in like kind of mediation conversations unofficially between executives, and it's, you know, you kind of have to be on point and b- be paying full attention to people's wants and needs and what they're scared of, et cetera.
00:07:03.528 --> 00:07:14.538
When you enter into a mediation, what's one of the first questions you ask either the parties together or individually just to get a sense of like, okay, what are we working with here?
00:07:14.548 --> 00:07:15.798
W- what do they want?
00:07:15.809 --> 00:07:16.738
What's the pain point?
00:07:16.788 --> 00:07:17.309
How do you...
00:07:17.778 --> 00:07:19.189
What are some questions you ask there?
00:07:19.245 --> 00:07:20.805
this might seem kind of different.
00:07:20.865 --> 00:07:26.935
Uh, I usually-- we'll do an opening, kind of explain why we're here, but then I separate each side.
00:07:27.154 --> 00:07:33.485
Then when I go to caucus with each side, ask the question: How can I serve you today?
00:07:34.685 --> 00:07:40.345
Because in the end, I'm gonna be doing in both rooms is coaching.
00:07:40.992 --> 00:07:41.382
Mm-hmm.
00:07:41.694 --> 00:07:45.875
sides actually have the answer to the issues that exist between them.
00:07:45.915 --> 00:07:47.615
They just don't know it yet.
00:07:48.014 --> 00:07:51.214
As a matter of fact, they come into the whole situation,"There's no way.
00:07:51.214 --> 00:08:02.444
We're, we're not getting this done." one side will say the other side's like the spawns of Satan, then the other ones are, you know, demon possessed, and they don't think they're gonna get anything done.
00:08:02.685 --> 00:08:07.685
But again, get them on either side and just ask the question: How can I serve you today?
00:08:07.995 --> 00:08:09.675
And let them tell me
00:08:10.341 --> 00:08:10.350
嗯
00:08:10.535 --> 00:08:12.125
I can best serve them.
00:08:12.875 --> 00:08:13.704
And they tell me
00:08:15.165 --> 00:08:20.805
And then would a related question be something like,"How do you see, see this moving forward?
00:08:20.814 --> 00:08:22.074
Or how do you see this resolving?
00:08:22.084 --> 00:08:27.074
'Cause basically we're at loggerheads here, but we've gotta bust through this, so how do you see this proceeding?"
00:08:27.831 --> 00:08:37.740
Actually, that's a very important point, and I want them to tell me that, because now I have in my mind where they see it, see things going at the end of the day.
00:08:38.410 --> 00:08:41.270
I'm asking the other side where they see things at the end of the day.
00:08:41.270 --> 00:08:53.030
But before I get there, another question I'm gonna ask,"Okay, how did we get to where we are today?" Each side is gonna wanna tell me their viewpoint.
00:08:54.020 --> 00:09:04.860
I need to open the door and say,"Okay, I wanna hear that, so tell me, how did we get here today?" And let them draw that out for me, because that's gonna help me too.
00:09:05.691 --> 00:09:09.681
Because I'll see their strong points, I'll also see weak points.
00:09:09.681 --> 00:09:11.581
I'll do the same thing on the other side.
00:09:13.061 --> 00:09:20.360
you know, I'll, I'll, I'll point those, uh, their respective weak points out to that side, not to the other party,
00:09:20.705 --> 00:09:20.845
Mm-hmm.
00:09:21.010 --> 00:09:22.980
and then try to bridge them together.
00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:31.020
But sometime, you know, many times they're less than$80,000 apart when I go in.
00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:37.081
Or not too long after we start the mediation, it gets to that point.
00:09:38.551 --> 00:09:48.931
I strongly feel that if good mediator can get somebody within$80,000 of each other, at the end of the day, gonna resolve the issue that exists between the parties.
00:09:49.831 --> 00:09:52.071
But they have to be heard.
00:09:52.708 --> 00:09:53.078
Yes
00:09:53.081 --> 00:09:55.350
it goes back to what you said about communication.
00:09:56.860 --> 00:09:57.921
Hear them out.
00:09:58.961 --> 00:10:15.321
Uh, I, I don't naysay anything that they have to say, because they have a vantage point, and in order for me to get them to shift their vantage point later on down the line, I, I gotta understand where they are right now in their vantage point.
00:10:15.341 --> 00:10:18.390
That's one of the things I talk about in the new book I have coming out.
00:10:18.390 --> 00:10:31.321
I- I- I- is you got to communicate, you gotta listen, and that's the big part of being a good servant leader, a good mediator, a good chief of staff, you have to listen
00:10:32.846 --> 00:10:45.807
And when you go into these, these one-on-one conversations and you say,"How did we get here?" I'm just curious, do most people just vent to you about how the other side is awful and they were doing everything wrong?
00:10:45.836 --> 00:10:54.216
Or is there a point where you get to like a little bit of glimmer of like personal responsibility of like,"I coulda done that better, but honestly they're the worst thing ever, but I coulda done that piece better"?
00:10:55.150 --> 00:10:56.801
Have you ever cooked with an Instant Pot?
00:10:57.284 --> 00:10:57.774
Yes.
00:10:58.301 --> 00:11:01.791
Okay, so you know you gotta let a little steam release before you can open,
00:11:01.893 --> 00:11:02.373
Yes
00:11:02.390 --> 00:11:05.850
it up and get down to what's actually in the pot.
00:11:06.520 --> 00:11:09.660
Uh, so you, you, you gotta let people blow off steam.
00:11:09.671 --> 00:11:13.260
People have feelings, and those feelings are important.
00:11:14.421 --> 00:11:20.431
Uh, and I need to treat them as if they're important, and any good mediator should.
00:11:20.490 --> 00:11:34.990
Any good leader when you're talking to your people as a chief of staff, because you guys have to manage conversations and conflicts between different people, not on a just a yearly basis, monthly or weekly.
00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:38.230
Y'all sometimes doing that on a daily basis.
00:11:39.520 --> 00:11:57.811
listen, understand, allow them to vent and say,"Okay, if I hear you correctly, this, this, this, and this is going on." And what I'm looking for at that point I wanna hear then what Chris Voss, uh, says,"That's right."
00:11:58.304 --> 00:11:58.595
Mm-hmm.
00:12:00.822 --> 00:12:06.363
Then they know and I know that I truly understand where they're coming from.
00:12:06.722 --> 00:12:10.033
All right, so now we can shift vantage point.
00:12:10.202 --> 00:12:11.482
Understand where you are.
00:12:12.163 --> 00:12:13.863
You told me where you wanted to be.
00:12:14.822 --> 00:12:16.482
How are we going to get there?
00:12:17.517 --> 00:12:18.006
Okay.
00:12:18.187 --> 00:12:22.206
So, so far we've done, like, an opening, here's why we're here with both parties.
00:12:22.456 --> 00:12:23.437
We've split them up.
00:12:23.486 --> 00:12:37.567
We go,"How, how have, how have we gotten to this point?" Let them vent, have feelings, and then recap to the point where they go,"Yes, that's right," or,"Exactly." And then something like, um,"How do you see this resolving?
00:12:37.567 --> 00:12:39.037
What does success look like?
00:12:39.438 --> 00:12:39.899
Correct
00:12:40.177 --> 00:12:44.496
would it take to move forward?" All these questions, and you kinda mentioned the 80K apart.
00:12:44.506 --> 00:12:58.626
So if someone goes, you know,"I want, um, you know, I, I want..." I'm gonna make up an example here, 100K and a, and a good reference," and that's kind of your starting point from party A, is that, is that the starting point for the negotiation?
00:12:59.188 --> 00:13:11.139
from the company vantage point,'cause sometime you'll get a complainant and they may make 15,$20 an hour and they're wanting$300,000.
00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:15.658
And on their very best day in court, that'll never happen.
00:13:16.849 --> 00:13:24.058
Uh, part of what I do is try to help both sides set reasonable expectations.
00:13:25.219 --> 00:13:32.078
And sometime that involves with the complainant party sitting down, uh, looking at actual damages.
00:13:32.158 --> 00:13:50.078
It, it involves me understanding case law in similarly situated cases, then being able to draw upon that and explain to the complainant party in cases similar to yours, this is generally what has happened.
00:13:51.129 --> 00:14:04.639
And then to go back on the respondent side, same thing, same case law, say,"Listen, if, if you take this all the way out, these are some things that could happen," and I lay out possibilities.
00:14:05.288 --> 00:14:09.269
And understand the possibility I'm laying out to the respondent, I'm not telling the complainant.
00:14:09.318 --> 00:14:14.639
And the ones that I'm laying out to the complainant, I'm sure not telling the respondent because I'm a neutral.
00:14:15.778 --> 00:14:24.979
But I'm letting them know, uh, what, uh, Clint Eastwood calls the good, the bad, and the ugly of their situation.
00:14:25.688 --> 00:14:28.509
at that point, it's their decision on what they're gonna do
00:14:30.414 --> 00:14:41.985
And are you one who goes in and says,"Let's tackle the biggest problem, the elephant in the room first," or do you wanna work with some of the smaller items and maybe get some momentum built up that way first?
00:14:42.626 --> 00:15:00.677
Well, let's take it back and say,"Okay, how-- this is where you say you wanna go, how we gonna get there?" And let's say that, you know, they, they wanna open with, uh, let's say the company$20.
00:15:01.486 --> 00:15:04.246
Now you don't wanna go all the way up to your top point.
00:15:04.277 --> 00:15:05.746
You wanna build up.
00:15:06.777 --> 00:15:07.836
a problem with that.
00:15:08.517 --> 00:15:11.966
But how are they supposed to look at$20?
00:15:11.996 --> 00:15:14.096
Put yourself in the other room, okay?
00:15:15.246 --> 00:15:19.557
If you came with an opening offer to the other side of$20, what are they gonna think?
00:15:19.557 --> 00:15:19.817
Yeah.
00:15:19.817 --> 00:15:20.167
Yes.
00:15:20.197 --> 00:15:20.937
There, you're right.
00:15:21.527 --> 00:15:36.567
Now, do not go to your absolute number, but put something out there that's gonna get them thinking, you know, maybe like$500,000 depending on what the damage model is, and then proceed, proceed there.
00:15:37.307 --> 00:15:42.716
'Cause no matter what you put down the first time, the other side is gonna see it as, as a bad thing.
00:15:42.716 --> 00:15:45.996
I'm still trying to get them off the part of the other side being evil.
00:15:47.726 --> 00:15:54.326
But one starts at zero and the other one starts at a number, and then we're trying to work it somewhere in between
00:15:56.302 --> 00:16:00.783
And how much discussion do you do separately before you bring them together again?
00:16:02.447 --> 00:16:10.496
I do a lot of discussion and usually I'm not bringing them back together until such time as we have a settlement in principle.
00:16:11.336 --> 00:16:19.147
And, and one thing that I failed to mention, and my apologies for this, even before mediation, there's pre-work that needs to be done.
00:16:20.136 --> 00:16:35.527
Uh, yeah, they're gonna vent a little bit there, but if I could get them to vent before we get there and to fully explain, and usually the attorneys of both sides will give me a position statement as to where they're coming from.
00:16:35.817 --> 00:16:40.537
And then I'm gonna wanna talk to the respondent attorney, make sure I understand that.
00:16:40.846 --> 00:16:43.846
Okay, me how your client feels about this.
00:16:43.956 --> 00:16:46.647
It, it-- Be, be honest.
00:16:46.647 --> 00:16:50.476
If they, if it upsets them, tell me that they're upset about it.
00:16:50.476 --> 00:16:51.226
I wanna know.
00:16:51.226 --> 00:16:53.346
The complaining party, same thing.
00:16:53.777 --> 00:17:04.297
So I'm sort of getting a little bit of that off the table because if not, when I go into the mediation, both sides are taking that time to present to me their side.
00:17:05.086 --> 00:17:18.477
like to look into it beforehand, ask questions, and then let's come down, sit down at the, uh, mediation table, let's, let's try to get things done
00:17:20.196 --> 00:17:28.156
And I'm understanding what you're saying so far, and it makes sense, but I'm imagining there's people and parties who just dig their heels in and are like,"We're not moving.
00:17:28.156 --> 00:17:40.557
Like, we're, we have right on our side, Stan, and I am not budging for that A-hole on the other side." So when you've got, like, one or two of those people and parties doing that, how do you break the ice a little bit?
00:17:41.636 --> 00:17:43.217
First I gotta tell them I'm not Superman.
00:17:43.936 --> 00:17:44.386
right?
00:17:44.807 --> 00:17:53.906
What, you're asking for is for me to don a cape a- and fly around the earth and reverse and turn back time.
00:17:54.727 --> 00:17:57.457
What's happened has already happened.
00:17:57.457 --> 00:18:02.317
F- for good, bad, indifferent, it's already happened.
00:18:02.646 --> 00:18:03.977
Where do you wanna go from here?
00:18:04.494 --> 00:18:04.825
Hmm
00:18:04.987 --> 00:18:12.747
continue to live in the past, or do you wanna come to the present let's try to get this thing resolved?
00:18:13.856 --> 00:18:15.247
"Well, they did me wrong.
00:18:15.277 --> 00:18:16.227
They did me so wrong.
00:18:16.227 --> 00:18:39.096
Let me go." And I said,"And the law has, uh, remedies for that, but you have to work within the remedies." I, I remember one time, um, and, and I'll, I'll check-- Well, it was even before I, I was a mediator, and I, I was talking to both sides uh, the, the company said,"Man, we just can't get him off this number.
00:18:39.106 --> 00:18:40.856
We just can't get him off this number.
00:18:41.277 --> 00:18:48.027
Um, he, he thinks compensatory damages ought to be..." And, and it was a mid number.
00:18:48.317 --> 00:18:56.997
And I said,"Okay." I went and did my research, went to the complaining party, him up one day and said,"Hey, listen," the attorney for the complaining party.
00:18:57.997 --> 00:19:05.777
"Listen, if you look at case law, and here's a couple, on your best day, your compensatory damages are this.
00:19:06.217 --> 00:19:20.386
And so if it's say 5,000 on your best day asking for$50,000, how's the company supposed to do that?" That attorney could do what I did and see that it's not 50, it's five.
00:19:21.078 --> 00:19:21.459
Hmm
00:19:21.487 --> 00:19:27.606
And so the complaining party went,"Okay, you're right," that they're looking at the facts and say five.
00:19:27.636 --> 00:19:30.787
Okay, well now the other side was only willing to pay 500.
00:19:31.987 --> 00:19:41.247
They went,"Okay, well how's the complaining party supposed to do that when case law says it's right about$5,000?""Okay, Stan, you're right about that.
00:19:41.287 --> 00:19:49.666
Uh, good with that." Then I get this side saying good with that and, and, uh, I make calls back and forth and they agree to that point.
00:19:49.707 --> 00:19:53.416
Then that right there now it's filling in the other blanks.
00:19:53.576 --> 00:19:56.646
Back pay what back pay is.
00:19:58.037 --> 00:20:00.537
It, it's not some made up number.
00:20:00.836 --> 00:20:03.576
It, it's how many days you've been out of work.
00:20:03.586 --> 00:20:04.146
That's it.
00:20:04.772 --> 00:20:05.313
It's math
00:20:06.037 --> 00:20:08.737
And it's at a discount to get it done today
00:20:10.015 --> 00:20:10.484
Ah.
00:20:11.154 --> 00:20:11.964
Yes, it is.
00:20:11.984 --> 00:20:17.474
If you keep this going open w- weeks and months and months, you're tallying up your bill there
00:20:17.901 --> 00:20:20.181
And there's no guarantee for either side.
00:20:20.191 --> 00:20:21.740
Nothing is guaranteed.
00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:28.911
There have been cases where I thought,"Man, this is an absolute merit case." Gets to administrative law judge, not so much.
00:20:29.941 --> 00:20:46.560
Or solicitor of labor who are Department of Labor attorneys, they say,"Well, you know, we're not feeling, that strongly about this case." And then there'll be cases like there is nothing here, and then surprisingly that ends up being a merit case at the administrative law judge.
00:20:46.590 --> 00:20:47.230
Go figure.
00:20:47.230 --> 00:20:52.951
But here's the thing, at the mediation table, you control what's going on.
00:20:54.090 --> 00:20:55.451
You're in control.
00:20:56.161 --> 00:20:59.441
If you allow it to go out of mediation, you're allowing
00:20:59.586 --> 00:21:00.537
not in charge anymore
00:21:00.891 --> 00:21:01.621
your destiny.
00:21:01.621 --> 00:21:02.121
Yes.
00:21:02.320 --> 00:21:05.080
So the two parties have control of their destiny.
00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:06.171
And you know what?
00:21:06.201 --> 00:21:19.931
In the workplace, when you have conflict, if you could get a manager and that employee to sit down and work things out, figure out where the conflict came, other than that, it's gonna get bigger
00:21:20.452 --> 00:21:20.893
Yeah
00:21:20.951 --> 00:21:28.810
bigger and, and, and it goes up to another level until, you know, it gets up to the chief of staff and now it's a big mess.
00:21:29.141 --> 00:21:51.000
But if you could create a culture in your workplace to where those things are handled at an early stage and people feel heard and listened to because managers know how to hold coaching conversations with their employees to draw the best out of them and create a culture where workers say,"Okay, I put forth my ideal.
00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:03.911
They didn't go with my ideal, but I know it's up there on the shelf." And that manager says,"Hey, there may come a time where we need to take that off the shelf, and if we do, then I'm gonna need for you to help me out with this to implement it.
00:22:04.701 --> 00:22:06.270
right now is not the time.
00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:08.050
But it's a great idea.
00:22:08.111 --> 00:22:14.090
It's just not the time right now." A person-- Most, most people will feel appreciative of that.
00:22:14.121 --> 00:22:17.290
It, it's just learning how to have those coaching conversations.
00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:24.471
So again, going back to something you said earlier, communication is key in the workplace
00:22:26.308 --> 00:22:29.868
And I think catching these things early is so, so important, and
00:22:30.103 --> 00:22:30.502
Yes
00:22:30.568 --> 00:22:38.519
people avoid them'cause it can be uncomfortable or I don't wanna have a difficult conversation, but then weeks or months down the line, you have a big problem.
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:44.568
I mean, it can go to Defcon 1 quickly, and it's like you could've had the conversation way back here and avoided this whole thing.
00:22:44.598 --> 00:22:47.568
So, um, I'm, uh, I'm in agreement with you on that.
00:22:48.179 --> 00:22:49.078
What are some
00:22:49.330 --> 00:22:49.730
have?
00:22:49.790 --> 00:22:53.141
A, you know, a little small tennis ball rolling down the hill or a boulder
00:22:54.156 --> 00:22:55.576
Like Indiana Jones style, yeah.
00:22:56.005 --> 00:22:56.255
Yeah
00:22:56.886 --> 00:22:57.406
yeah.
00:22:57.537 --> 00:23:00.007
I, uh, I would like to have the tennis ball.
00:23:00.593 --> 00:23:00.732
Yes
00:23:02.676 --> 00:23:07.467
uh, if someone is kind of sensing, mm, you know what?
00:23:07.477 --> 00:23:16.386
Like, there's a little bit of tension, there's a little bit of sass, and that, you know, we had a team meeting and those two folks were kinda going at it a little bit, uh, a little bit sharply.
00:23:17.186 --> 00:23:20.186
What sort of conversation would you have at that stage?
00:23:20.196 --> 00:23:24.747
Where it's, it's not nothing, nothing blatantly blatant, you know, offensive or illegal has happened.
00:23:24.747 --> 00:23:28.126
It's just like, eh, I'm starting to sense this is getting to get out of control
00:23:29.189 --> 00:23:34.469
You kinda need somebody that can come in and try to play the part of a neutral.
00:23:34.729 --> 00:23:43.519
Uh, what they-- In the federal government, they have mediators, and they'll have mediators come in and mediate between management and e-employee.
00:23:44.179 --> 00:24:11.528
Uh, but i-if you got a real sharp HR person that can go in and, and act as a neutral, uh, a-as much as they can and hear out both sides, and then where they have positives, note those positives, but say,"Hey, you're gonna kinda have to give a little bit here because this is what policy says, and we have to go in accordance with our policy.
00:24:12.318 --> 00:24:13.969
And Mr.
00:24:13.969 --> 00:24:14.388
or Mrs.
00:24:14.388 --> 00:24:29.249
Manager, we have to make sure we're following our policy." where people get into trouble, particularly with, uh, employment law related issues, is they have progressive discipline policies and workplace policies that they don't follow
00:24:30.671 --> 00:24:32.901
Hmm, that never happens
00:24:34.444 --> 00:24:44.585
And you follow it with this person over here, you don't follow it with this person over here, and you're opening to door to issues.
00:24:44.625 --> 00:24:46.134
And, and it's just not necessary.
00:24:46.505 --> 00:25:08.315
If your progressive discipline policy a- and your workplace policy is not working 100%, tweak it, get it in place, train everybody on it, signature affirmation page that they went through the training so you can have it documented, and then enact your policy and treat everybody the same
00:25:09.669 --> 00:25:16.128
So I think that's a, a great point for folks who have handbooks and policies in place, and maybe they're a larger organization.
00:25:16.409 --> 00:25:22.318
Certainly something for a chief of staff to keep in mind if they're creating the first policy, rule book, handbook, et cetera.
00:25:22.719 --> 00:25:49.469
If you're at a company that's at such an early stage where people are going around, there's not really rules, there might be a few processes documented, but also Nick has a napkin by his desk that shows us how to do this one thing over here, um, and you're sensing like some tension where it's like,"I gotta hold this team together and I don't want this to get out of hand," is there a, a question or a prompt or kind of a, a line to invite them to kind of talk to you one-on-one behind closed doors?
00:25:49.469 --> 00:26:01.019
Like, hey, you know, um, I, I, I used to, I used to use the phrase, you know, uh,"You didn't seem like yourself in that meeting," or,"You weren't yourself in that meeting." And they're like,"Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, but like that thing she said like really pissed me off," da da da da.
00:26:02.085 --> 00:26:02.295
Yeah.
00:26:02.295 --> 00:26:03.515
Talk, talk to me.
00:26:03.855 --> 00:26:04.285
Hmm
00:26:04.525 --> 00:26:05.204
Just talk to me.
00:26:05.444 --> 00:26:10.884
But if you're gonna tell a person to talk to you, allow them to talk to you.
00:26:11.714 --> 00:26:16.035
And in that moment when they're venting, they may be a little angry and they may say something off-key.
00:26:16.065 --> 00:26:16.535
Okay.
00:26:16.805 --> 00:26:17.134
All right.
00:26:18.555 --> 00:26:26.414
Now, I, I appreciate you letting me know that now, but I, I kinda want you to calm down'cause I don't want you to go out there and, and, and say what you just said here.
00:26:27.085 --> 00:26:36.875
Uh, but, but they may just, they're just a little frustrated and may, may have said something, and say,"Okay, you got that out.
00:26:37.335 --> 00:26:38.954
Here's what policy says.
00:26:39.954 --> 00:26:42.144
What's the best way of going forward with this?
00:26:43.214 --> 00:26:45.174
How can I engage your manager?
00:26:45.255 --> 00:26:59.075
Or manager, can we engage your, your employee to work with you to get the task that the company has set forward for that team or that division done?"
00:27:01.378 --> 00:27:23.469
And I think that if, uh, folks are listening are like,"I don't have a strong enough policy to lean back on," I think another thing you might use is, you know, the, the culture of the team or, like, being part of this team is about X, Y, and Z, where you kind of make the, the unofficial policy, but it's like,"Hey, for anyone who's gonna be on this team, like, we've gotta interact like this, and that's the standard.
00:27:23.868 --> 00:27:33.479
Um, that's just the accepted standard we have on the team, and implications like you're, you were real close to not meeting it there, so I just wanted to make sure that everything is copacetic."
00:27:33.997 --> 00:27:57.326
Well, one of the things that I do for businesses is to come in a-and have a, a strategic, we could be a, a two-day deal where I come in and the, the first day I'm just kinda getting to know about the company, finding out some of the issues, and trying to help them chart a little bit of a different course to make that culture change.
00:27:58.207 --> 00:28:19.507
they feel stagnant and they, being able to come in with the tools that I have help them push past to sort of change their vantage point of where they are to where they go, where they wanna go, and to put some action steps in place to move from A to B and then, you know, and continue to move forward.
00:28:20.237 --> 00:28:37.136
Sometimes it calls for bringing somebody in, uh, having a strategic conversation or having a conversation about policy, goals, maybe it's just coming in, teaching your managers how to have coaching conversations with their people
00:28:39.375 --> 00:28:42.964
And about how long do these processes tend to take?
00:28:42.964 --> 00:28:53.174
So take the example we were talking about before where you've got, um, you know, people going back and forth and you're meeting with them privately as two separate parties, and you're trying to get their ideal number.
00:28:53.194 --> 00:28:55.994
Here's, here's what policy says, here's what is reasonable.
00:28:56.615 --> 00:28:58.375
How long does that typically take?
00:28:58.375 --> 00:29:04.444
If someone's red hot, like coming in hot, like I'm gonna, you know, take a billion dollars from these people, um, how do you...
00:29:04.634 --> 00:29:07.184
How long does it usually take them to g- talk them down?
00:29:08.028 --> 00:29:11.788
my longest mediation just shy of 10 hours
00:29:12.845 --> 00:29:13.825
Wow.
00:29:13.875 --> 00:29:15.515
That's actually faster than I thought.
00:29:15.515 --> 00:29:15.845
Okay
00:29:16.037 --> 00:29:19.027
but I've actually got one done in 45 minutes
00:29:20.396 --> 00:29:20.876
Wow.
00:29:20.886 --> 00:29:30.027
So you take them from like red hot, I am an Instant Pot blowing steam, to no, I'm willing to concede a little bit and compromise to get this thing done
00:29:30.926 --> 00:29:37.856
Well, again, going back to the Instant Pot example, once you let that steam off and you open up the pot, the temperature goes down.
00:29:38.826 --> 00:29:49.507
And now we can start being real about what's there in the pot and dealing with that, and, and then working to resolve the issue.
00:29:49.547 --> 00:29:50.666
What is the issue?
00:29:51.426 --> 00:29:54.146
Do you truly want to resolve this today?
00:29:54.207 --> 00:29:56.207
All right, then what does that look like?
00:29:56.896 --> 00:29:58.886
You might have to give a little bit.
00:29:59.317 --> 00:30:01.846
Company, you might have to put up a little bit more.
00:30:02.666 --> 00:30:11.277
if you wanna take it out of the mediation a- and take it to before it gets to mediation, again, on both sides, what is the goal?
00:30:12.106 --> 00:30:13.836
The company has a mission.
00:30:14.707 --> 00:30:24.676
Um, they have tasks that they've given their divisions and their departments and their teams to accomplish that mission, and something's not clicking communication-wise.
00:30:24.676 --> 00:30:30.356
And a lot of times what it is, it's just like I'm a D personality, okay?
00:30:30.356 --> 00:30:31.707
And I'm talking about DiSC.
00:30:32.277 --> 00:30:36.096
Uh, I's are h- I mean, the life of the party.
00:30:36.136 --> 00:30:37.826
S's are like the Rock of Gibraltar.
00:30:37.826 --> 00:30:39.517
They really love systems.
00:30:39.936 --> 00:30:41.606
The C's are analytical.
00:30:41.926 --> 00:30:45.737
And so these are all behavioral styles, but they have their own language.
00:30:46.116 --> 00:30:57.646
If I, as a D, come in and I know that I'm dealing with an analytical person, and all I'm talking about, I need things bullet-pointed, and I try to speak to them in a bullet-pointed fashion, they won't get that.
00:30:57.646 --> 00:31:04.856
But if I go to them and speak to them in their language, about details, giving them detailed information, they hear me.
00:31:05.346 --> 00:31:15.277
And so one of the things I'm also able to do with companies is to come in and teach people that not everybody's crazy, just not you.
00:31:17.227 --> 00:31:17.446
And so
00:31:17.457 --> 00:31:18.727
Good life lesson as well.
00:31:18.727 --> 00:31:18.926
Yes
00:31:19.116 --> 00:31:19.146
them.
00:31:19.406 --> 00:31:23.257
You, you have to speak to them the way that they hear things.
00:31:23.646 --> 00:31:38.977
You know, I remember being, uh, officer, uh, we were doing a big cruise, you know, we stopped in France, and I, I didn't speak, didn't speak French, uh, but when they, when they spoke French to me, I, I, I didn't understand them.
00:31:39.777 --> 00:31:49.067
we had to try to find some, some way to talk to, talk to each other a- and to communicate, which meant sometimes I had to do the uncomfortable.
00:31:49.987 --> 00:31:54.277
it's easier now'cause you can pick up your telephone and you can do like a translation deal.
00:31:54.277 --> 00:32:00.497
But I was st- I'd be struggling sometimes to, you know, to, to, to get my thoughts across.
00:32:00.626 --> 00:32:02.217
But that's what we have to do in the workplace.
00:32:02.217 --> 00:32:04.626
We have to understand there are different behavioral characteristics.
00:32:04.626 --> 00:32:05.856
Not everybody's the same.
00:32:06.636 --> 00:32:11.326
And if you wanna communicate with that person, you have to speak to them in their language.
00:32:11.797 --> 00:32:13.457
But the reverse is true.
00:32:14.307 --> 00:32:19.076
they're gonna speak to you, they need to learn to speak to you in the language that you understand.
00:32:19.076 --> 00:32:26.666
And when people are speaking to each other in the way that they need to be spoken to, things work a lot better in the working place
00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:33.719
And I like that language analogy because a lot of what I, a lot of people go,"Oh, they're not getting it.
00:32:33.719 --> 00:32:39.058
Let me speak slow, loud English, and then it'll get through." I was like,"That's not French."
00:32:39.586 --> 00:32:42.606
No, no, they're, they're, they're, they're not getting it.
00:32:42.616 --> 00:32:45.196
You ha- you have to get down to, to their language.
00:32:45.606 --> 00:32:52.596
And sometimes people appreciate when you try to be authentic and real with them, you're trying to communicate.
00:32:52.967 --> 00:33:01.576
So while I'm in a restaurant and I'm trying to order, I may find somebody and just say,"How do I order this in French?"
00:33:01.775 --> 00:33:02.184
Hmm
00:33:02.346 --> 00:33:08.497
And we'll work on it, and then I'll go and say,"Okay." And I'll say it, they'll laugh.
00:33:08.686 --> 00:33:12.247
"Okay, we, we, we know what you want." They appreciate the fact that, you know what?
00:33:12.287 --> 00:33:14.957
I always found the service to be top-notch.
00:33:15.086 --> 00:33:15.547
Why?
00:33:16.356 --> 00:33:17.537
Because I tried.
00:33:17.934 --> 00:33:18.325
Hmm
00:33:19.287 --> 00:33:23.057
You're not always gonna-- That, that person's different than you are.
00:33:23.057 --> 00:33:25.936
You're not always gonna be able to connect exactly.
00:33:26.406 --> 00:33:40.376
But the fact that you try and you try on a consistent basis, most people are gonna be very good with that to say,"Hey, uh, he, he, he or she tries to get me.
00:33:41.307 --> 00:33:57.777
they really do try to work to understand where I'm coming from and to meet needs, uh, I have as an employee and the, the skills that I need and the supplies that I need in order for me to carry out the mission that the company has given me."
00:33:58.373 --> 00:34:01.323
They're trying to meet me halfway, which goes a long way.
00:34:02.002 --> 00:34:02.393
Yeah.
00:34:02.654 --> 00:34:04.744
Just meet them halfway.
00:34:05.144 --> 00:34:10.775
And yes, you may be the supervisor, the executive, you, you don't have to prove it.
00:34:10.775 --> 00:34:21.594
I, I remember being an officer, yeah, I, I had bars on my, on my shoulder, but I found that when I took care of my people, people took care of me.
00:34:22.335 --> 00:34:26.025
I found that as a supervisory investigator, same thing.
00:34:26.905 --> 00:34:30.094
Taking care of my people, they took care of me.
00:34:30.394 --> 00:34:32.394
There's something that Jeff Henderson says.
00:34:32.394 --> 00:34:34.335
He used to work for, uh, Chick-fil-A.
00:34:34.364 --> 00:34:40.315
He says, you want somebody to be for you, you need to be for them first."
00:34:40.407 --> 00:34:40.797
Hmm.
00:34:41.016 --> 00:34:41.396
Yeah.
00:34:41.757 --> 00:34:42.117
Yeah.
00:34:42.527 --> 00:34:45.166
How many cases have you negotiated, Stan?
00:34:47.434 --> 00:34:53.204
Uh, in my career, I handled, uh, just a little over 1,700 cases.
00:34:53.925 --> 00:34:57.335
I settled just shy of 700
00:34:58.277 --> 00:35:00.367
So 700 were successful.
00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:01.030
Right.
00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:01.460
Right at
00:35:01.496 --> 00:35:02.217
Wow.
00:35:02.646 --> 00:35:03.206
Okay.
00:35:03.387 --> 00:35:03.876
Wow.
00:35:03.967 --> 00:35:04.436
Okay.
00:35:04.907 --> 00:35:12.577
And I mean, I'm really interested in this, but respectful of your time, what's the one thing that you would wanna get out to people we haven't covered yet?
00:35:12.577 --> 00:35:16.436
Like,"Look, I've done 700 of these things successfully in my career.
00:35:17.186 --> 00:35:20.106
Here's another thing you gotta keep in mind when you're coming to the table."
00:35:21.262 --> 00:35:27.543
As of whether you're a, a leader, executive, an aspiring leader, you're gonna have doubts.
00:35:28.463 --> 00:35:31.032
When I get to these mediations, both sides have doubt.
00:35:31.032 --> 00:35:34.893
They absolutely doubt that a resolution can be found.
00:35:35.902 --> 00:35:40.543
But not only will you find those doubts there in mediations, you'll find them in the workplace too.
00:35:40.952 --> 00:35:51.583
You take a look at a Kodak a Blockbuster, they had doubts about certain technologies and now they're not around anymore, and somehow we give into those doubts.
00:35:52.233 --> 00:36:04.413
those people come into the mediation, they've pretty much totally given into their doubts, I have to get them to shift their vantage point believe that resolution is possible.
00:36:05.193 --> 00:36:23.034
And what I try to do as a trainer, speaker, and coach is to work with businesses and try to explain to them there are doubts in your workplace too And I wanna try to help them overcome those doubts to become the best version of themselves as leaders.
00:36:23.034 --> 00:36:38.574
So do not be held hostage by your doubts, whether it's, uh, conflict resolution or trying to, perform a, a, a task or, or finish up a project o- on a high level
00:36:40.226 --> 00:36:44.007
And I think that's such, such a good reminder because, uh, uh, you know, a lot of people avoid things or don't do things'cause they're scared or doubtful.
00:36:47.347 --> 00:36:55.487
"I'm not quite sure how this is gonna go." And then they just let it linger and fester and do the ostrich tactic, which is like put your head in the sand and pretend it goes away.
00:36:55.487 --> 00:36:55.827
So
00:36:56.155 --> 00:37:02.076
worse than that, uh, you probably heard a story about the elephant, baby elephant tethered to a stake.
00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:03.311
Oh, yeah
00:37:03.657 --> 00:37:17.237
elephant learns that, I mean, it, it can't break it, so it grows up as an adult thinking that it can't break that flimsy rope, when actually it could break something many times more heavier and stronger than that rope.
00:37:17.715 --> 00:37:25.657
And so we get a mindset i-i-if people come into conflict thinking that,"I don't wanna have a part of that.
00:37:25.715 --> 00:37:27.476
I don't wanna deal with that.
00:37:27.936 --> 00:37:34.215
I'm not able to deal with that," and that's that doubt speaking and ruling in your head.
00:37:35.115 --> 00:37:55.396
You got to break that flimsy rope that's been tethering you in your comfort zone, which by the way, is not so comfortable, and step out a-and step into that, i-into that conflict because u-until you do, there are things you're not gonna be able to put to the side and move past.
00:37:55.416 --> 00:37:57.496
It'll always be there.
00:37:57.896 --> 00:38:06.155
Uh, you're in your comfort zone, huddled down, not wanting to come out there a-a- and you're holding yourself prisoner.
00:38:06.536 --> 00:38:12.335
You're ho- a-and sometimes companies hold themselves prisoner to their doubts.
00:38:12.376 --> 00:38:18.876
So what I wanna leave people with is that you are able to evict the doubts that have been squatting rent-free in your mind
00:38:19.936 --> 00:38:20.556
Love that.
00:38:20.567 --> 00:38:22.036
Stan, thank you so much.
00:38:22.036 --> 00:38:28.327
You've mentioned some of the things you do and how you work with people, but, uh, workshops and training and your book is out.
00:38:28.536 --> 00:38:31.536
If people are liking what you're putting down, where can they find the book?
00:38:31.717 --> 00:38:33.266
Where th- where can they contact you?
00:38:34.190 --> 00:38:43.150
Well, Emily, I'm gonna send you the link so that you can share it with your readers, but they can find me at stanlewis.net/home.
00:38:43.780 --> 00:38:47.780
S-T-A-N-L-E-W-I-S.net/home.
00:38:48.791 --> 00:38:51.490
Uh, there's a little pop-up form that'll come up there.
00:38:51.490 --> 00:38:59.001
You can put your, your name and, and information off in there, just a little thing for a comment telling me how you came across me.
00:38:59.641 --> 00:39:12.740
And, you know, if you have a question, put it off in there and, uh, we'll connect and give me some time to think into what you, you have going on and, and, uh, try to help you become the best version of yourself.
00:39:12.740 --> 00:39:16.280
And if I can't help you, I'm gonna try to find somebody who can help you
00:39:17.101 --> 00:39:18.101
And what's the book called?
00:39:18.724 --> 00:39:23.695
The book is called Evict the Doubts That Have Been Squatting Rent-Free in Your Mind
00:39:24.101 --> 00:39:24.610
Boom.
00:39:24.650 --> 00:39:25.170
Love it.
00:39:25.351 --> 00:39:27.740
We will have all that information in the show notes.
00:39:28.001 --> 00:39:29.581
But Stan, thank you once again
00:39:30.574 --> 00:39:32.094
Hey, thank you.
00:39:32.295 --> 00:39:39.335
This has been a joy, and I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to connect with you and your fellow chiefs of staff
00:39:41.494 --> 00:39:48.994
If today's episode gave you a new idea, a fresh perspective, or something practical to try, please consider sharing it with a friend or colleague.
00:39:49.574 --> 00:39:53.023
People deserve great leaders and becoming one is harder than it looks.
00:39:53.813 --> 00:39:59.364
Let's keep learning, growing, and getting a little bit better together, one conversation at a time.