Executive Presence Is Range, Not a Persona

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Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership, where we unpack the art of business leadership.
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I'm your host, Emily Sander, executive advisor to founders, CEOs, leadership teams, and chiefs of staff.
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This show is all about finding your points of greatest influence and leveraging them to better serve those around you.
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Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership.
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My guest today is Jackie McCormick, co-founder of Jetstream Advisors and an executive coach with more than 15 years of experience working with leaders and executive teams.
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We are talking about executive presence, how you develop your own leadership brand, understand how others experience you, and show up with more confidence and authenticity.
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Jackie, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much, Emily.
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I appreciate you having me
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I'm looking forward to this topic because it's something that I'm personally interested in, but also I know with chiefs of staff, with executives, with CEOs, with founders, they're s- sometimes having to develop their executive presence or rebrand their executive presence.
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So looking forward to, to hearing from you.
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Just to get us started here, how would you define executive presence beyond, um, confidence or gravitas?
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So it's way bigger than that.
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If we think about confidence and gravitas, I'd say those are great pillars to have as a part of your executive presence.
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So executive presence is really, um, it's a high portion of it is energetic.
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A very high portion of it is how you're able to-- how agile are you to be able to navigate, keep your authority balanced with your approachability during, you know, difficult, often very, very difficult situations.
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Um, so it's that, like, higher level, maybe umbrella factor that people-- it's a, like, it's a feel to you.
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There's a brand that you have, but it's also a feel.
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You know, people can feel that you have control.
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People can feel that you're calm under pressure.
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They can, you know, they understand that you're trustworthy.
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They can, you know, during difficult times of uncertainty, they can look to you to, you know, steady the ship.
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So there's a lot of different factors for it.
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It looks different for men and women, which I think is a big part of the conversation.
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But, um, there's actually four pieces in developing executive presence that are so important, and the very first piece of it is internal baseline.
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It's not anything external, it's internal to you.
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How well do you practice the pause and calm your central nervous system?
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How, how in tune are you with what's going on?
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Is your, you know, are you red?
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Is your brain red?
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And what happens when that, you know, happen?
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'Cause that happens to all of us.
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It, it's important to know what we do with that before the be- the f- you know, following behavior that sets us up for success.
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So I would say that's a, a very cobbled together definition of executive presence.
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I like the kind of intuitive nature of it where someone can kind of sense it and pick it up, and I'm not even quite sure how to articulate that maybe, but I know that I trust this person and I feel confident in their presence and under their leadership.
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Um, and then you spoke about it's not just the external tactics of being, you know, I have executive presence because I do these five things, check, check, check, check, check, check.
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It's like the internal piece.
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So h- how would you, uh, coach someone around kind of polished external confidence versus genuine confidence in a, in a area?
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Well, look, I think everybody that's been around leadership for any extended amount of time, by the time you get especially into the C-suite and the executive space, a spidey sense for performative confidence, like we all do, right?
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We know.
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And quiet confidence is built...
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I'll give you an example.
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Um, I've worked with a lot of C-level executives in my career, and by and large part, they are very, very relaxed.
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They are the most, one of the most chill people in the building, right?
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If I wanna go to a very high-strung, very difficult, you know, where I see a lot of the bad behaviors, it's usually gonna be at the director level, It's very performative when you aren't used to what's expected of you, and this is very new, and it's kind of like this, this experimentation phase when you're moving out of being a high-functioning performer being a systemic leader, which is really like that threshold that has to happen.
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So, but by the time you're seasoned, by the time you've developed that muscle, you've made your way into the C-suite through, you know, that normal progression, I would say with the exception of startups, where all of a sudden a C-level executive that's been there five years.
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it, it's a different feel.
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It's not performative.
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is a seasoned and deep confidence in knowing, you know, you've got this and what this looks and feels like to those people around you.
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but again, it's, it's a, it's a delicate balance that I've seen C-level executives that don't get it right, right?
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It, it's, there's kind of this idea that there's this model for executive presence.
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This is how you're supposed to behave.
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There's a, there's an authority, there's a command, there is a volume associated.
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There is that top-down ri- all of these things that, mm, there's a time and a place, generally don't land too well with really good branding and executive presence development.
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And I think there's also a range to be built.
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So it's not like,"Oh, let me learn the template and, like, make sure I do all these things." It's like there's the authentic piece to you, but also you've gotta be able to flex in and out of a whole bunch of different situations pretty seamlessly as a C-suite executive.
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So your executive presence shows up in different ways given different scenarios
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That's right.
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So you need to know what the outcome, what is the outcome I'm looking for at, in this situation?
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Am I...
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Do I need to set some, do I need to set direct limits?
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Do I need to, is it a high stakes decision-making, um, situation?
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Um, is there a high level accountability that has to be implemented?
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That's a different behavior style than when you're trying to build relation- n- you know, relationships, and when you're trying to be approachable, and you express vulnerability because you're trying to build emotional safety with those people around you, because that has to be present to lead effectively.
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So, but that looks so different, right?
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Your tone of voice, your body language different, right?
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When you're establishing authority, your bo- your body language is very open and very expansive.
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You're making yourself very big.
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when you're not, and when you're going into more of the approachability, um, side of the pe- the, the spectrum, your, your body language is very welcoming.
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You're very relaxed.
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You're very approachable, right?
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And we have to know how you are received.
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How am I received when I'm trying to set direct limits?
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What do I want?
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And so how do I do that with my body, with my tone of voice?
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How do I speak?
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Do I speak very concisely, bottom line up front?
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I'm making clean requests.
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I'm not giving a lot of detail, context, things that diminish my authority, right?
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Because those things diminish your authority.
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if you're going to the approachability, that's the time to build relatedness, offer stories, offer that vulnerability aspect, right?
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That's that bringing people into you, um, that I think there's a lot of executives mo- and I will say significantly more women also with that because they get into this double bind, right?
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I need to be both at once.
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You don't.
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You don't need to be both at once, but you do need to find your authentic approach in both arenas.
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How, how does someone do that?
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If someone's going like,"Yeah, I, I kind of get that.
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I understand the principle, but how do I actually figure that out?" Maybe one piece to zero in on is, um, I find a lot of people don't understand how they're being received, or they think,"To get this thing, I have to like yell and be demanding and, and get loud or big or whatever." And it's like, mm, that's actually almost the opposite of what you wanna do to get what you want.
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Yeah
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so a lot of times w- when I'm coaching folks or when I'm coaching chiefs of staff to coach their principal, it's you've gotta let them know when they do this, the downstream impacts are actually A, B, C, not X, Y, Z.
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Because they're, the way they're connecting it isn't, isn't lining up, and what they actually want, they're not doing what they need to do to get what they actually want.
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So how would you advise someone on, you know, you gotta take an inventory on how you're showing up with people and their perception?
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For sure.
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The first piece is what am I mimicking?
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I think most leaders are mimicking some model of leadership that they've either been given through, you know, a predecessor or someone that's helped define what leadership looks like in their mind.
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And so that model is the first thing to understand because the models are always attached to outcomes.
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Um, relational outcomes and then tactical outcomes.
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They might have achieved the job, but what happened to the relationships?
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So the, both elements of a model really have to be assessed, and then you get to decide, is this a model I wanna take forward with me?
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Does this matter?
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Does this match how I, this brand of leadership that I'm trying to develop?
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If it doesn't match, you gotta get back to the drawing board.
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You need to know what is it that I'm trying to create and find.
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It's great to find a good model of leadership.
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You know, I've got a lot of people that look at, um, his b- his m- his name is escaping me right...
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Howard Schultz
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Shops?
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um, mm-hmm,
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Starbucks?
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right?
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He's a, he's a fantastic model of leadership, and I've had a lot of executives, um, point their eyes in that direction.
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but the other thing too is to realize that have to know how you are perceived, and you're not always perceived in one way because people that have behavior styles that are very similar to yours, it's not gonna be any problem, right?
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Because they like to have commun- they like to be communicated with the way you appreciate communicating.
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the other half of the room are, their feet aren't touching the ground anymore because your tone is off, and they've stopped listening to you because of your tone, or they feel very unsafe or very targeted.
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Um, the pace is too fast for them.
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So you've lost them, right?
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So as a leader, it's always really important, too, is to be able to capture the entire audience.
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Who am I speaking to, and what do these different factions need?
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Now, there's a, there's an art to this.
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There's an art to capturing everybody, right?
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You capture the people that are capturable very fast and easily up front, and then you come around, and you put your arms around everybody else.
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that need more detail, that need more time to ask questions, that need more, you always en- you know, put your arms around those people as well.
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And I think when I hear that, I certainly want my message to land effectively and for people to feel embraced.
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And then I also know as a high-level leader, you are not gonna please everyone.
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It's like after you get past a certain number of people, like it's, it's an impossible task, so you have a, you have to be able to balance that and be okay with that, where I did my best, I flexed to the audience, I, I, you know, knew this subsection would have a problem with this, so I spoke to that.
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I knew this subgroup would have a problem with that, so I spoke as best as I could to that.
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But some people are still angry and mad, and
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And
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I gotta choose to move on
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That's right.
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That's exactly right.
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You did your job, and you move on.
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And again, it's about developing that model of leadership because that's all addressed in when you're very, when you're very intentional about understanding your leadership brand and you're able to, you know, do the very best you can at going from authority to approachability and s- and doing and swinging effectively across that spectrum.
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And then at the end of the day, you have to achieve results, you need your drivers and people in action to execute, that's, I mean, that's all there is, folks.
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Like that comes down to the figure show.
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Sorry to draw the line, but it...
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You know, you do your best, and then you keep moving
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And so if someone is moving into, uh, a C-suite role for the first time, and I always tell people, you kinda get to reinvent your leadership every time you go to, uh, into a new role.
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Certainly a new company, no one knows you.
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You've got a blank slate, which is kind of scary in some ways, but also really cool because you get to create it.
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What would you say to someone who's just moved into a C-suite role for the very first time at a brand-new company, clean slate, and they wanna be conscious and deliberate about how they develop their executive presence?
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Listen.
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That's a big, big deal is listening.
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Listening to culture in the organization matters a lot.
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Culture within the C-suite matters a lot.
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There are unspoken rules and always power structures in play that you need to pay attention to.
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So listen and pay attention, um, and then bring your model forward and develop allies, right?
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You're, you're a systemic leader.
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If you're brought in as a functional expert in the C-suite, you're gonna have problems.
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You're gonna have problems because you're gonna operate in a silo.
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You need to make that deliberate, you know, in, um, deli- sorry, Emily, my, my words
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You're good.
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You're good.
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Deliberate effort to be able to build that collaboration with the other members at the table, right?
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And so it's just very important that when you're, like yours, like you said, you can redefine yourself every time.
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It's, that's amazing.
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But you also have to be authentic.
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You need to be authentically you.
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It's not like you're putting on a mask and trying on a new costume.
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People have a spidey sense for inauthenticity.
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They know.
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So you need to be able to tap into that and then lean in according to the culture of where you are, uh, where you're gonna have to lean in and, and harder.
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You know, there's more authoritative organizations and there's more organizations where it's much more, it's much better to be on the approachable side, right?
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It's just you have to listen and pay attention
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And I think it's not about putting on a, a mask, but it is an evolution of like, hey,
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No
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someone has recruited you and selected you to be on a team at this level, and so then your leadership needs to evolve and expand with that.
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And so, um, that's just what I meant by, uh, reinventing or rebranding yourself.
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If y- and I heard you say, you know, get to know the culture.
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Is, is, like, this an aggressive culture?
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Is this a more laid back, collaborative culture?
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Which I think is great to take inventory on.
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And then you said bring your model into it.
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If you don't know what your model is,'cause maybe you've gotten this far and you're like,"I, I just showed up, but I wasn't really conscious about my executive presence and how I showed up and how that landed with others, but now Jackie is saying I should actually be a little bit more deliberate with that," how would you go about, like, figuring out w- what is my model?
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You have to figure out what you're trying to achieve and what the things...
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Like, I, you know, every leader is known for something.
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Like what do you want to be known for?
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What's the wake?
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When you look and you think of a, of a speedboat moving through water, right?
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There's always a significant wake behind you, and that's the, that's a principle in leadership we've talked about for a really long time.
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What is your wake?
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And, and you get to define that.
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There's good wake, there's positive wake, and then there's negative wake.
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And so let's focus on what it is that we're trying to create you know, set that vivid vision for yourself.
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Every org- good organization has a vivid vision, right?
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Three years out, this is where we are, and it's very, feels very real.
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Um, do that for your leadership.
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This is how I want people to experience me.
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This is the type of leader that I want to be known as.
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This is...
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You know, there's a lot of intentionality in, in that evolution.
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I love how you went back and revisited that, that it is absolutely an evolution and it's a, it's an increasing sophistication, right?
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It's like when you're, um, those old time radios, I'm gonna date myself, but you know, right?
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When you got the, like the tuner
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Yes.
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You got
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Yeah
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You're about there.
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Like you've got the static, you've got the static, and you try to...
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I think some leaders will put up with a significant amount of static because they don't have the patience to keep tuning
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உம்.
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Sometimes our, their results are supported by the static.
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High performance, some bad behaviors in leadership are supported by metrics.
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Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.
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Really good leadership tuning that, keeps turning the knob until it's crystal clear and there's no static, and they understand exactly what they're chasing.
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And so for somebody that's like a high potential, when you're re- when you've been identified and you're being like carried on that amazing experience development, you've got resources that are pouring into you, that you, you've got that, you've got the eye and people are really looking at you as being that next generation of leader, is that perfect opportunity for you to sit with this and think about tuning the knob and getting crystal clear about what is important.
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Because value-driven leadership is super important.
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It, it's absolutely important, because that's where the rubber hits the road in, on your most difficult day, is you're gonna lean back into those values.
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That's where you're gonna, your decision-making, you're gonna lean back into those values.
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and it's gonna lead to a very, very fulfilling experience in leadership
00:17:57.964 --> 00:18:05.335
I love that visual of turning the knob because it's almost like you're getting through the static to find the signal,
00:18:05.550 --> 00:18:05.560
Mm-hmm.
00:18:05.684 --> 00:18:10.105
and then fine-tuning that to be as clear as possible for yourself and for others.
00:18:10.105 --> 00:18:11.065
I love that analogy.
00:18:11.345 --> 00:18:17.644
Um, and maybe one way for someone to, you know, wh- wh- what kind of leader do I wanna be?
00:18:17.654 --> 00:18:30.204
It could be, well, there's, you know, lots of examples out on the interwebs, and magazines, and podcasts, and getting an inventory of, hey, here's this kind of leader in politics, and here's this kind of world leader over here, prime minister.
00:18:30.424 --> 00:18:40.894
Here's this business leader that I don't know personally, but I know of, and here's some old bosses that I have, which I really like these things they did, and I didn't, I didn't care for these things so much.
00:18:41.174 --> 00:18:44.545
And take the best parts of that and make it all your own.
00:18:44.545 --> 00:18:48.484
Might be, if you're kind of at a loss for like, how, how do I even come up with this model?
00:18:48.585 --> 00:18:54.335
That might be a f- a first stab at, okay, let me get something on the table and then fine-tune it as I go.
00:18:54.446 --> 00:18:54.997
That's right.
00:18:54.997 --> 00:18:55.307
Yeah.
00:18:55.307 --> 00:19:01.886
And I, I liken it a lot, um, for those of, for those of your listeners that are parents, right?
00:19:02.116 --> 00:19:08.676
All of us, right, every single one of us were given a model of parenting, what we experienced
00:19:08.782 --> 00:19:09.292
Yeah
00:19:09.767 --> 00:19:10.057
right?
00:19:10.057 --> 00:19:12.636
And we didn't have a say in that model.
00:19:12.836 --> 00:19:22.747
But when we become parents, we have the responsibility and we have the opportunity to look at that model, make a full assessment on it, and say,"I'm gonna let this go.
00:19:22.936 --> 00:19:33.307
I didn't find this was effective and it was quite destructive," or,"This worked really well and this is something I'm gonna carry forward with me." Leaders have the exact same opportunity.
00:19:33.626 --> 00:19:41.676
They were given a model, and it's their responsibility and opportunity to take it and dissect it and look at it, right?
00:19:41.987 --> 00:19:43.626
And it's just this very cool...
00:19:43.626 --> 00:19:48.497
And I, I think that most people, most leaders, they're doing it way more now.
00:19:49.576 --> 00:19:58.856
historically, I think people don't acknowledge,"Well, this was the model, but I real- do I really wanna keep it moving forward with this?" Right?
00:19:58.876 --> 00:20:00.217
We, we get that opportunity.
00:20:00.217 --> 00:20:03.166
We get that, you know, we get the choice.
00:20:03.457 --> 00:20:12.076
And so just like parents, I think sometimes w- we're all given the model, and sometimes it just becomes this is just how we operate, this is what I was given and what my dad did, right?
00:20:13.406 --> 00:20:14.207
we get to choose.
00:20:14.217 --> 00:20:21.797
So there's that human element, um, and it just kind of replays in different areas of our life, and leadership is no different.
00:20:22.247 --> 00:20:24.166
We have that responsibility and opportunity.
00:20:24.166 --> 00:20:25.416
We have to maximize it.
00:20:26.489 --> 00:20:27.419
And maybe if you've had...
00:20:27.419 --> 00:20:33.588
I mean, if you're C-suite, you've probably had enough exposure of different types of leaders directly you can, you can pull from.
00:20:33.788 --> 00:20:45.739
But, you know, it's always good to expand your range in the sense of, let me just go listen or maybe read a book, a biography on someone, and just get some more context, options, and ideas, and oh, like, you can be, you can do it that way?
00:20:45.739 --> 00:20:49.638
Like, you don't have to, uh, do it like my old boss who I hated working for did it?
00:20:49.638 --> 00:20:50.078
Okay.
00:20:50.368 --> 00:20:54.558
So incorporating those, those pieces, um, in there I think is fantastic.
00:20:54.788 --> 00:21:06.969
Uh, what patterns do you see or what traits do you see for people who develop their executive presence successfully and those who kind of flop around and are, like, mm, cringey, cringey, inauthentic?
00:21:08.691 --> 00:21:08.931
Inauthentic.
00:21:08.971 --> 00:21:13.361
Well, I will, I'm gonna draw the line between men and women here a little bit.
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:27.800
Um, I find that when I coach female executives and they struggle with executive presence, it's because the model of leadership that they've been given is a very masculine blueprint, and they try to mimic that,
00:21:28.375 --> 00:21:28.625
Hmm
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:29.530
just what they know.
00:21:29.550 --> 00:21:30.471
It's what they've been given.
00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:36.290
But when a female does it, it lands very wrong, and there's good reason for that.
00:21:36.381 --> 00:21:39.320
So, um, the first thing.
00:21:39.330 --> 00:21:45.401
Women have to develop executive presence differently than men do because communication lands differently.
00:21:45.431 --> 00:21:58.401
We have, um, a little bit different reaction to emotions we communicate, and we tend to have different stories and assumptions that...
00:21:58.830 --> 00:22:00.270
And there's a different level of expectation.
00:22:00.270 --> 00:22:00.901
Like, there's a lot.
00:22:00.921 --> 00:22:03.300
There's, like, a, this run-on sentence goes on and on.
00:22:03.300 --> 00:22:12.651
So there's a, there's a lot here, but the inauthenticity comes from when we're trying to, we're trying to mimic something that doesn't match.
00:22:13.020 --> 00:22:16.010
It doesn't match who we are and how we operate.
00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:20.540
How do we develop a model that works with who we are?
00:22:21.290 --> 00:22:22.201
a female leader.
00:22:22.490 --> 00:22:24.060
I have this many years experience.
00:22:24.411 --> 00:22:26.280
This is an area that I struggle with.
00:22:26.300 --> 00:22:27.740
I struggle with authority.
00:22:27.951 --> 00:22:29.730
I struggle with holding people accountable.
00:22:30.050 --> 00:22:32.401
I struggle with moving to that side of the spectrum.
00:22:32.411 --> 00:22:34.280
I'm great in the approachability.
00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:35.151
People feel safe.
00:22:35.191 --> 00:22:35.990
They love me.
00:22:36.980 --> 00:22:41.601
Well, I'm a little hamstrung because I do, worried about the relatedness aspect too much.
00:22:41.911 --> 00:22:44.080
I won't hold people accountable because I need people to like me.
00:22:44.641 --> 00:22:49.830
I feel like in order, instead of holding people accountable, I'm gonna pick up and do their job for them, right?
00:22:50.181 --> 00:23:12.101
These are some of the areas that I've seen women struggle with because they are, either uncomfortable stepping into that authority piece or it lands wrong when they do, they're using the volume and the top-down and the command, and they're, it, them being assertive is coming off, off as aggressive.
00:23:12.931 --> 00:23:17.010
And I hear that a lot,"She's aggressive," right?
00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:21.980
But if a, if a gentleman were doing the very same behavior, they're listening.
00:23:22.020 --> 00:23:23.961
It doesn't land as aggressive.
00:23:23.961 --> 00:23:27.391
And I'm not saying w- I'm not saying there's an advantage, a disadvantage.
00:23:27.431 --> 00:23:30.580
I'm just saying we're different, need to operate like we're different.
00:23:30.580 --> 00:23:32.310
We need to develop like we're different.
00:23:33.881 --> 00:23:40.530
but yeah, I think it, it comes from c- like, trying to mold ourselves into something that's not us.
00:23:41.371 --> 00:23:42.500
where I see the biggest rub
00:23:43.727 --> 00:24:02.586
And what would you say, so for female leaders listening, um, they're going,"Okay, so I know I have to kind of a- adjust and be aware of the fact that things are gonna come off differently'cause I'm a woman." Um, you mentioned some examples there, but maybe like what's an example of like, here's like how a female would need to do it and here's how a male would need to do it.
00:24:03.467 --> 00:24:12.057
And then also there's, I'm assuming, like there's many facets of leadership you would say are the same for both.
00:24:12.076 --> 00:24:13.886
It's like leadership is leadership is leadership.
00:24:14.207 --> 00:24:22.386
Um, are there any places where it's like, yeah, no matter who you are, you're gonna wanna come back to this, this hallmark of leadership?
00:24:22.542 --> 00:24:22.843
Yeah.
00:24:22.942 --> 00:24:28.002
No, I think, I think a large portion of leadership is actually the same for men and women.
00:24:28.363 --> 00:24:40.643
But I think that, go back to the very beginning of our conversation, that feeling of understanding genuine authority and authenticity, that is just, it's a feeling.
00:24:40.663 --> 00:24:42.772
It- there's a, that speaks to a part of us.
00:24:43.232 --> 00:24:45.373
That's where the paths diverge a little bit.
00:24:45.833 --> 00:24:55.846
And so, you know, for For the men and women, um, the areas, like I gave some, I gave some examples, but women have to be really careful.
00:24:55.936 --> 00:25:02.497
What women tend to do, men, and men don't do this as much, but again, bottom line up front communication.
00:25:03.267 --> 00:25:08.686
You give the bottom line up front and then add detail if necessary, if asked for.
00:25:08.797 --> 00:25:09.807
That's one example.
00:25:10.926 --> 00:25:14.767
Women leaders sometimes will over-contextualize.
00:25:14.797 --> 00:25:17.747
They will give too much, way too much storytelling.
00:25:18.166 --> 00:25:21.797
Um, in an effect of like it makes them seem less strategic.
00:25:22.287 --> 00:25:24.227
It minimizes their authority.
00:25:24.237 --> 00:25:29.396
It's like they're trying to provide all of this, like,"CC, I've done my homework." don't have to do that.
00:25:29.707 --> 00:25:37.487
If you could do the bottom line up front communication and then provide whatever is asked for at the end, now we're, now we're even, right?
00:25:37.517 --> 00:25:38.987
It's a much more natural stance.
00:25:39.007 --> 00:25:42.767
Men communicate like that a little bit more naturally.
00:25:43.457 --> 00:25:47.836
Um, on the other side is on the emotional side, right?
00:25:48.737 --> 00:25:54.817
Women sometimes will disengage if they feel like they get hijacked, they get defensively...
00:25:55.146 --> 00:25:57.567
They feel defensive, they can come off as aggressive.
00:25:58.376 --> 00:26:01.037
Female executives can be seen as aggressive when they get defensive.
00:26:03.616 --> 00:26:11.317
well, can we find the space in between instead of disengaging because now you're labeled as aggressive, so this forces me to step back a little bit?
00:26:11.616 --> 00:26:16.896
Let's find that space and the emotional granularity to be able to say,"I'm not angry.
00:26:17.737 --> 00:26:30.076
Um, I'm feeling marginalized." Now that's a conversation, When we're able to be very granular about what's going on and why we're feeling certain things, um, we're able to do that.
00:26:30.346 --> 00:26:33.997
Men don't do that very well either, the emotional granularity, right?
00:26:34.267 --> 00:26:39.346
"I'm angry." You know I'm angry by my tone, but it hasn't landed wrong.
00:26:39.817 --> 00:26:40.156
Like,
00:26:40.615 --> 00:26:40.704
Yeah.
00:26:40.926 --> 00:26:41.727
in the room gets it.
00:26:42.067 --> 00:26:53.057
Everybody,"Okay, we know." just have a little bit of a harder time with that landing piece, and so there's just some extra development that's required.
00:26:54.277 --> 00:27:01.386
but to the second half of your question about the areas that are the same, so much the same, right?
00:27:01.696 --> 00:27:06.866
Clear communication, accountability blueprints, you know, being very, very...
00:27:07.277 --> 00:27:09.017
The shift is the same for men and women.
00:27:09.027 --> 00:27:12.426
Moving from authority to approachability.
00:27:12.666 --> 00:27:16.067
You know, men don't just get to stay in the authority zone, right?
00:27:16.717 --> 00:27:17.747
That, that's old.
00:27:17.757 --> 00:27:19.287
That's way antiquated.
00:27:19.297 --> 00:27:21.277
Like, we don't do that type of leadership anymore.
00:27:21.287 --> 00:27:24.527
Like, we're looking for transformational servant leadership.
00:27:24.807 --> 00:27:25.616
You're down there.
00:27:25.626 --> 00:27:26.507
You understand.
00:27:26.517 --> 00:27:27.416
You're empathetic.
00:27:28.267 --> 00:27:31.717
You've got to be able to be, to be nimble and agile in both areas
00:27:33.326 --> 00:27:38.067
Yeah, I think, uh, it comes back to that range piece we were talking about at the beginning, where develop range.
00:27:38.067 --> 00:27:43.977
Like, no matter who you are, you've gotta be able to flex in and out of different situations, always being authentic to you, make it all your own.
00:27:44.386 --> 00:27:50.196
Um, Jackie, how do, uh, halos and shadows show up in leadership?
00:27:50.858 --> 00:28:01.618
So this has a lot to do with natural behavior styles, and that's why leadership really needs to know people have different elements, um, that, that shape their leadership, right?
00:28:01.628 --> 00:28:06.769
Their behavior style, things that keep them in motion and, um, get them in motion and keep them in motion.
00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:08.459
So we call those, like, driving forces.
00:28:08.898 --> 00:28:13.249
Their approach to change is a big one, their emotional intelligence.
00:28:13.259 --> 00:28:21.009
So I'd say across the spectrum, those four pillars combine to create these halos and shadows in leadership.
00:28:21.358 --> 00:28:27.578
So, you know, for example, uh, a leader who is very, very people driven, right?
00:28:27.659 --> 00:28:32.038
And, but is more of a pragmatist and a, a preserver with...
00:28:32.078 --> 00:28:44.368
A, and conserver, excuse me, a conserver with change, well, they might be seen as stubborn, but very, very, you know, trying to make sure that people are engaged and always taking the temperature because they're people driven.
00:28:45.368 --> 00:28:51.638
Um, halo, like, they might be excellent, excellent ambassadors in the organization.
00:28:52.009 --> 00:28:59.499
So those types of combinations are really important to know about your specific leadership style.
00:29:00.189 --> 00:29:01.259
call them watch outs.
00:29:01.979 --> 00:29:07.419
"Hey, this is kind of something that you, you need to be aware of at all times." The halo is excellent.
00:29:07.548 --> 00:29:08.959
That's, this is the plus.
00:29:08.979 --> 00:29:09.739
This is a good thing.
00:29:10.528 --> 00:29:23.919
the shadows, you need to be careful about how you're perceived because those shadows show up impromptu conversations, in high-stress situations where your natural styles always come to the forefront.
00:29:24.838 --> 00:29:27.929
and so you just have to be aware that you have to be careful.
00:29:28.749 --> 00:29:39.288
is how I'm probably being perceived in this situation, to be able to take the mitigating, um, actions necessary to, like, really figure this out
00:29:40.878 --> 00:30:06.949
Yeah, and it's interesting because it sounds so logical and straightforward when you say it, and I'm like,"Yep, yep, yep." And then I get into something, like I've been in this personally, where,"Ugh," like,"why did he email me that way?" Like, okay, I'm getting defensive and all this stuff, and I've, I've learned that, okay, when my shoulders kind of get tight and my neck gets tight and my shoulders kind of come up to my neck, um, and I get, like, my heartbeat increases and my temperature increases, I know I'm having a certain type of reaction.
00:30:07.308 --> 00:30:17.308
I've learned to just breathe and, like, take a second and go,"Okay, I am probably overreacting and being s- assuming things and being critical.
00:30:17.699 --> 00:30:30.138
Let me operate in this uncomfortableness, but operate in a certain way." Whereas before, it'd be like a knee-jerk reaction, an emotional reaction, and it's like, Oh my gosh," and after the dust settled, it was like,"Oh, you didn't mean it that way.
00:30:30.479 --> 00:30:32.769
I was not technically wrong by doing it, but you...
00:30:32.798 --> 00:30:45.798
like, that could've gone differently." And so I'm wondering, um, how much of that is training ourselves to, like, be aware of it and then pause for a beat and then decide how you're going to respond.
00:30:46.237 --> 00:30:46.616
Totally.
00:30:46.737 --> 00:30:47.116
Totally.
00:30:47.116 --> 00:30:48.057
And what you're describing...
00:30:48.317 --> 00:30:57.007
Look, the reality is for every negative interaction, it takes five positive interactions with that individual to unwind the damage.
00:30:57.186 --> 00:31:10.886
So a negative response in that knee-jerk email of like,"Hey, you didn't have to..." You know, going out right back after them, you don't have that kind of time to go and five interactions, positive interactions, to repair the damage.
00:31:11.176 --> 00:31:14.196
So that's the case for doing this right up front, right?
00:31:15.086 --> 00:31:16.807
And you, you spoke to it beautifully.
00:31:17.007 --> 00:31:24.616
The emotional space to be able to say,"I, I..." It is not a case of I feel therefore I am.
00:31:25.936 --> 00:31:27.227
No, you're not.
00:31:27.671 --> 00:31:28.171
No
00:31:28.237 --> 00:31:28.717
not.
00:31:29.166 --> 00:31:38.596
You have feelings, and then there's a space there where the logical side of your brain, that's why we have the pause, because our emotional side of our brain is lightning fast.
00:31:38.856 --> 00:31:40.307
It's much slower than our logic.
00:31:41.297 --> 00:31:53.876
We give our logical side time to catch up, to engage, create and, and listen to what the stories that we in our thoughts are creating around this neutral experience.
00:31:54.336 --> 00:31:56.436
'Cause our stories are what create emotions.
00:31:56.878 --> 00:31:57.229
Yeah
00:31:57.297 --> 00:31:57.777
the email.
00:31:58.047 --> 00:32:01.797
It's the stories that we have going here that made us angry.
00:32:02.196 --> 00:32:21.926
So recognizing that space and then saying,"What do I want on the other side of this experience for this relationship?" And then,"Well, how does that dictate my behavior now?" That short, very short conversation with yourself saves you so much time, and it makes you so effective.
00:32:22.176 --> 00:32:23.376
It makes you consistent.
00:32:23.416 --> 00:32:24.856
It makes you emotionally safe.
00:32:25.166 --> 00:32:30.346
It makes you that trusted leader that you're not, you're not reactive.
00:32:30.366 --> 00:32:32.747
There's nothing more dangerous than a reactive person
00:32:33.601 --> 00:32:35.050
Unpredictable reactive, yeah.
00:32:35.573 --> 00:32:36.692
I don't know what I'm gonna get.
00:32:36.772 --> 00:32:40.252
I don't know, and I also don't know how my words are gonna be perceived.
00:32:40.252 --> 00:32:42.613
It's not me saying them over text, over email.
00:32:43.022 --> 00:32:46.272
We're losing so much commu- you know, elements of communication through there.
00:32:46.573 --> 00:32:47.313
Who knows,
00:32:48.047 --> 00:32:48.487
Yeah
00:32:48.863 --> 00:33:07.413
And, you know, with the speed that's required in leadership now, I mean, thank goodness AI is like,"Hey, you might wanna say it this way." But helps us a lot, but we don't, we can't, like, craft every email to be perfectly neutral and positive and little, you know, and little emoji at the end.
00:33:08.952 --> 00:33:13.232
we have to be able to implement, and it, and it has its roots in cognitive behavioral therapy.
00:33:13.282 --> 00:33:21.452
This is back to, you know, your th- your, this element, I mean, sorry, this event not create anger in you.
00:33:22.393 --> 00:33:34.442
Your thoughts about this neutral thing that happened created anger, and taking that emotional sovereignty and responsibility is everything in leadership.
00:33:34.462 --> 00:33:41.913
And that's actually the very first part of when we take executives through the, you know, presence training.
00:33:42.492 --> 00:33:50.873
Emotional sovereignty is the very first piece, and that's staying calm, understanding your baseline, what's going on, right?
00:33:51.113 --> 00:33:51.643
Calm down.
00:33:52.762 --> 00:33:53.073
Calm down.
00:33:53.423 --> 00:33:54.913
Sit on your hands, folks.
00:33:55.383 --> 00:33:56.823
Don't move, right?
00:33:58.232 --> 00:34:22.652
And a really common question I get back when I talk to people about this is,"So you j- you're just saying fake it till you make it?" And I'm like,"Uh, no." I mean, there's like a specific discrete kind of set situation where sometimes it's like, hey, yeah, you have to kind of be your best self, not someone else, but you have to come out of your current level of leadership and rise to the occasion.
00:34:23.012 --> 00:34:30.083
Um, so there might be a little bit of, uh, a little bit of a gap there, but it's not like become someone else.
00:34:30.083 --> 00:34:31.842
But that's the, that's the common reaction I get.
00:34:31.842 --> 00:34:45.853
So if listeners are saying like, hold on, like they're basically saying, you know, fake it till you make it in these situations when we reinvent ourselves or whatever, but I have feelings of, of insecurity or anger and like you have to clamp down on that, what would you respond with?
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:48.780
I don't, it's, I don't think it's an element of faking it at all.
00:34:48.780 --> 00:34:56.311
It's about developing a different muscle that is absolutely necessary, um, for being a better leader.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:05.440
Like, you- your emotional granularity and your ability to completely stay sovereign in your space is...
00:35:06.201 --> 00:35:07.460
That's not faking anything.
00:35:07.581 --> 00:35:08.811
That's building a muscle.
00:35:09.090 --> 00:35:09.121
It's
00:35:09.166 --> 00:35:09.547
உம்
00:35:09.561 --> 00:35:12.351
the gym, and you lift heavy, and you can only do one rep.
00:35:12.661 --> 00:35:13.331
Are you faking it?
00:35:13.820 --> 00:35:14.391
No.
00:35:15.601 --> 00:35:23.811
like, you're, you're building toward a different level of competence and capability, reps are the only thing that's gonna keep you there.
00:35:24.001 --> 00:35:37.201
Reps are the only thing that's gonna allow you to create the space in your leadership to be sovereign, to be in absolute control of your responses, and also project,"This is what I want.
00:35:37.201 --> 00:35:43.170
This is how I wanna be perceived in this situation, so this is therefore gonna dictate my behavior right now."
00:35:44.059 --> 00:35:44.159
Hmm.
00:35:44.610 --> 00:35:45.101
Anger
00:35:45.438 --> 00:35:45.489
that.
00:35:45.568 --> 00:35:45.858
Yeah.
00:35:46.090 --> 00:35:46.731
is normal.
00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:48.210
I'm not gonna say it's a negative emotion.
00:35:48.291 --> 00:35:49.190
It's not.
00:35:49.990 --> 00:35:50.570
data.
00:35:51.246 --> 00:35:51.657
Yeah
00:35:52.650 --> 00:35:56.300
So we've got stories, we have assumptions, and recognize it.
00:35:56.710 --> 00:36:01.150
Where, what is it telling us, and what are the things that I can do to mitigate that?
00:36:01.170 --> 00:36:02.661
Is it a cause for motivation?
00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:03.851
it a cause...
00:36:03.891 --> 00:36:04.701
Is it a warning?
00:36:05.010 --> 00:36:07.161
Like, are there things that I need to pay attention to?
00:36:07.161 --> 00:36:13.971
Is this a pattern that's arisen that's forcing me to have a higher level conversation with this individual than speaking to the issue?
00:36:14.351 --> 00:36:14.621
Right?
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:27.581
Those are things that you need to pay attention to, but in the moment, you have to stop, figure out what it is that I want, and then adjust my behavior accordingly
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:29.619
Beautiful.
00:36:29.869 --> 00:36:37.998
Um, what are you and Scott, a, uh, former guest on this pod, what are you and Scott up to at, uh, Jetstream?
00:36:38.572 --> 00:36:40.992
We are, we're cruising at altitude.
00:36:41.023 --> 00:36:41.452
Can I say that?
00:36:42.793 --> 00:36:43.632
We're at 30,000 feet.
00:36:43.922 --> 00:36:47.722
No, it, it-- With Scott and I, we're really focused on helping organizations.
00:36:47.722 --> 00:36:54.172
So he, do, um, take the analogy is that he develops the airframe of the organization, right?
00:36:54.182 --> 00:36:56.222
He's in the strategy ops scaling.
00:36:56.413 --> 00:37:06.972
He makes sure that when you build a, you know, Class A aircraft, that we don't have a Class C crew managing it, and that's my job.
00:37:07.092 --> 00:37:08.572
My job is the crew, right?
00:37:08.572 --> 00:37:09.342
We develop...
00:37:09.632 --> 00:37:13.543
So the aircraft and the leadership have to match.
00:37:13.762 --> 00:37:21.052
The leadership and the horsepower in leadership have to match the horsepower in the organization and the scaling and what's capable there.
00:37:21.523 --> 00:37:26.193
Um, and so we've got some different initiatives that we're rolling out most recently.
00:37:26.963 --> 00:37:33.382
I'm actually, have a women's executive presence progression training that we've rolled out.
00:37:33.552 --> 00:37:34.753
It's very effective.
00:37:34.802 --> 00:37:38.362
Um, it's a six-month program for female executives and high potentials.
00:37:38.782 --> 00:37:46.152
They need to get this right, and a lot of it, of our conversation today is, is all of it actually is in that training.
00:37:46.152 --> 00:37:47.643
So it's really impactful.
00:37:47.713 --> 00:37:48.632
We're excited about it
00:37:49.539 --> 00:37:51.329
And how, how would that work if someone signed up?
00:37:51.329 --> 00:37:52.889
Is that, uh, in person?
00:37:52.889 --> 00:37:53.878
Is that asynchronous?
00:37:53.889 --> 00:37:54.949
Is that live Zooms?
00:37:54.949 --> 00:37:56.259
What's, what does that entail?
00:37:56.431 --> 00:37:59.221
It's live Zooms with me, uh, twice a month.
00:37:59.231 --> 00:38:09.650
It's not a huge time, you know, commitment, but there is some extensive work, um, asynchronously, so independently when you're, like, based on our coaching sessions together.
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:18.041
You'll have some very dedicated exercises to come and bring awareness to expand that stretch, and then we come back and experiment, like, what worked, what didn't work.
00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:19.400
We have to tweak things, right?
00:38:19.431 --> 00:38:26.800
So, uh, it's just like any executive pres- um, executive coaching engagement, but it's a short, directed training.
00:38:26.971 --> 00:38:31.590
So instead of so much of a coaching hat on, I have more of a consulting hat on.
00:38:31.630 --> 00:38:32.610
This is the model.
00:38:32.681 --> 00:38:33.550
These are the frameworks.
00:38:33.670 --> 00:38:34.670
This is what works.
00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:37.960
Um, but it's a, it's really, really effective
00:38:38.447 --> 00:38:38.746
Yeah.
00:38:39.027 --> 00:38:43.567
And just as a last question, kind of personally, like we're both coaches working in the consulting advisory space.
00:38:43.867 --> 00:38:49.016
When did you realize that, you know, this is the kind of work that I was meant to do?
00:38:49.608 --> 00:38:50.679
Oh, oh my gosh.
00:38:51.128 --> 00:38:56.608
Um, someone asked me, it was a girlfriend, can I call back to when I was, like, 14?
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:06.088
like,"Jackie, I feel like you have, like, spill it tattooed across your forehead." Um, but that was just, that was just it, right?
00:39:06.088 --> 00:39:06.378
You know?
00:39:06.378 --> 00:39:07.929
And I think there's people that are...
00:39:08.668 --> 00:39:09.568
It's a calling.
00:39:09.699 --> 00:39:12.248
It's not something you do, it's something you're really called to.
00:39:12.349 --> 00:39:19.168
And it's been, it's been 30-plus years, um, that I've been doing that in different capacity o- of my life.
00:39:19.168 --> 00:39:27.588
But I really found I go very fast when I'm helping people be- go from functional to exceptional.
00:39:28.161 --> 00:39:28.451
Hmm.
00:39:28.978 --> 00:39:31.318
and that's great with leadership.
00:39:31.349 --> 00:39:36.829
I love working with leaders because I love seeing the cascading effects of the work.
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:42.489
Like, when, leaders really get it right, benefits.
00:39:42.728 --> 00:39:44.329
Like, everybody benefits.
00:39:44.389 --> 00:39:51.838
And I, you know, years ago, I, I thought this, like, amazing, a- amazing initiative was just gonna take off.
00:39:51.858 --> 00:39:52.289
It didn't.
00:39:52.318 --> 00:39:59.798
But, you know, cascading coaching all the way through the organization, and don't just leave it at the top, and everybody should have access to it.
00:40:00.228 --> 00:40:02.018
Um, lessons learned there.
00:40:02.018 --> 00:40:07.739
I'm still obviously coaching at the top, but that's the impact, and it's just so fulfilling.
00:40:07.768 --> 00:40:09.068
So I don't know.
00:40:09.139 --> 00:40:11.588
I'm gonna ask you this question because I don't know about you.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:15.398
What, what was, what was your moment, the aha moment for you?
00:40:15.822 --> 00:40:29.362
Y- yeah, there was, I was in between jobs and I was doing some reflection, and it was,"Okay, Emily, you know, what was your favorite part of all these roles you've had in corporate?" And without fail, it was like a very strong theme emerged.
00:40:29.362 --> 00:40:39.632
It was like, I liked the one-on-one mentoring and advising, and Jennifer didn't think she was, you know, important enough to speak up at team meetings, and now she leads team meetings.
00:40:39.632 --> 00:40:44.083
And then Christian didn't think he could lead our EMEA region for client management, and now he does.
00:40:44.083 --> 00:40:53.913
And, like, those things just stuck with me, and were like, ugh, like, y- you did something meaningful, and who cares about the client escalation, all that stuff that was a big deal at the time.
00:40:54.182 --> 00:41:08.563
And so once I put that together with, oh, there's, you know, a whole practice that you can create around doing this, I was like,"What if I could wake up and do nothing but my favorite part of the day all day long?" And I'm like, well, life is short.
00:41:08.943 --> 00:41:10.373
Let's see if we can make that happen.
00:41:10.382 --> 00:41:11.483
So here we are.
00:41:12.503 --> 00:41:12.893
Yes.
00:41:13.353 --> 00:41:13.893
But I,
00:41:14.105 --> 00:41:14.344
I love it
00:41:14.353 --> 00:41:15.762
I, I love what you said about...
00:41:15.762 --> 00:41:28.052
I, I, I truly believe that, um, helping people operate to the top of their potential, or even a little bit closer, makes the world a different place.
00:41:28.402 --> 00:41:42.862
It's just, it, like, fundamentally just makes teams run differently, and organizations, and families, and communities, and so I feel like, you know, my small, small sliver in that giant vision is to help coach and advise leaders.
00:41:43.447 --> 00:41:43.947
I love it.
00:41:44.086 --> 00:41:44.246
It's
00:41:44.452 --> 00:41:44.833
Yeah.
00:41:44.996 --> 00:41:45.047
It's the
00:41:45.382 --> 00:41:45.913
Yeah.
00:41:45.927 --> 00:41:46.657
world, right?
00:41:46.943 --> 00:41:47.612
It is.
00:41:47.623 --> 00:41:49.333
It's fun and yeah, I love, I love it.
00:41:49.333 --> 00:41:49.983
I could go on and on.
00:41:49.983 --> 00:41:50.382
But yes.
00:41:50.693 --> 00:41:53.483
But Jackie, thank you for everything you're doing.
00:41:53.503 --> 00:42:01.472
We will have all the information on Jetstream to reach out to you and Scott, um, if people are inclined to in the show notes, so please look for that in the show notes.
00:42:01.492 --> 00:42:04.242
And, um, we will, we will go from there.
00:42:04.242 --> 00:42:05.873
But Jackie, thank you so much for being on.
00:42:05.873 --> 00:42:06.893
It was a pleasure having you.
00:42:07.255 --> 00:42:07.934
Thank you, Emily.
00:42:08.014 --> 00:42:08.465
Loved it
00:42:10.431 --> 00:42:17.871
If today's episode gave you a new idea, a fresh perspective, or something practical to try, please consider sharing it with a friend or colleague.
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:22.190
People deserve great leaders, and becoming one is harder than it looks.
00:42:22.701 --> 00:42:26.271
Let's keep learning, growing, and getting a little bit better together.
00:42:26.630 --> 00:42:28.101
One conversation at a time.