Gary Michels:
00:00:00
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
Gary Michels:
00:00:02
Michels, and today we have Jordan Grumet. Jordan Grumet is
Gary Michels:
00:00:05
a hospice medical director and the author of The Purpose Code,
Gary Michels:
00:00:10
How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness and Leave a Lasting
Gary Michels:
00:00:15
Legacy. Welcome to the show.
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:17
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:19
the conversation.
Gary Michels:
00:00:20
Absolutely so your life took an unexpected turn
Gary Michels:
00:00:23
after a profound personal loss reshaped your trajectory and led
Gary Michels:
00:00:28
you towards your medical career. Could you share a little bit
Gary Michels:
00:00:31
about your story with us?
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:32
Certainly. I was seven years old when my dad
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:35
died. He died suddenly. He was 40 at the time. He was rounding
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:38
at the hospital. He was an oncologist or cancer doctor, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:41
he got a severe headache, had a blood vessel burst in his brain,
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:45
and died pretty quickly thereafter. And being seven
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:48
years old, I saw the world through a very selfish lens. I
Jordan Grumet:
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figured if he died, it must be something I did wrong or I
Jordan Grumet:
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wasn't good enough, and so I single handedly decided that I
Jordan Grumet:
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could solve this tragic loss by just becoming a doctor like he
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:03
did, and that became my sole version of purpose, a big,
Jordan Grumet:
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audacious version of purpose in which not only did I save the
Jordan Grumet:
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world by helping people, but I could somehow undo this bad
Jordan Grumet:
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thing that happened to me when I was a kid. So originally, I
Jordan Grumet:
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found a lot of fulfillment in it. This idea that I had
Jordan Grumet:
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something that I was supposed to do really engaged me, and so I
Jordan Grumet:
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worked really hard. I had a learning disability when I was a
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:24
kid, and I got over that, and I went to high school and college,
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:27
and I was the kid who was always studying while everyone else was
Jordan Grumet:
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out having fun. It was my sole version of purpose and identity
Jordan Grumet:
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for many years, and it did serve me until I started practicing
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:36
medicine and realized there was a lot I didn't like about it. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:39
didn't like the hours, I didn't like the paperwork. I so often
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:42
felt like I wasn't helping people as much as I wanted to.
Jordan Grumet:
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And at some point, I had that epiphany that no matter how good
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:48
a doctor I was, A, I wasn't going to save everyone, and B, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:52
wasn't going to undo the tragedy. My dad wasn't back. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:55
had become a doctor. I had done this big, audacious thing. I was
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:58
supposed to be feeling good, and I realized that I kind of CO
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:02
opted his version of purpose, because I thought it would save
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:05
everything and fix everything, but I wasn't very connected to
Jordan Grumet:
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the work like I found a bunch of his notebooks one day as an
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:11
adult, we were cleaning out my mom's addict and I was looking
Jordan Grumet:
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at his notebooks and seeing the loving notes he had taken on all
Jordan Grumet:
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the biological pathways, And I could just tell by these notes
Jordan Grumet:
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how much he loved it, and I had none of that like I didn't enjoy
Jordan Grumet:
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it nearly as much. It didn't light me up. And so it was
Jordan Grumet:
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really epiphany to realize that even though it felt like a real
Jordan Grumet:
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sense of purpose and did fill me up for some point, when I
Jordan Grumet:
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actually got there, it didn't.
Gary Michels:
00:02:37
Wow. So you decided to make a jump right
Gary Michels:
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from internal medicine to hospice. Where did that come
Gary Michels:
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from?
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:45
So I got so burned out in medicine, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:48
started looking for ways out. But what the heck am I going to
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:51
do with myself? I had no idea. So instead of throwing the baby
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:54
out with the bath water, I just started getting rid of things I
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:56
didn't like in my medical practice. I didn't like owning
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:59
my own practice, so I got rid of that. I didn't like working in
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:01
nursing homes, so I got rid of that. What of that. When I got
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:03
rid of everything that I didn't like, I was left with one thing
Jordan Grumet:
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I loved, which was doing hospice work. About five years into my
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:11
career, I was taking care of a dying patient. We called
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:13
hospice. They came saw the dying patient. I had kind of done
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:16
everything they needed to have done before they even got there.
Jordan Grumet:
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So they looked at me and they said, you're really good at
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:20
this. Why don't you come work for us? So I started almost what
Jordan Grumet:
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I call a medical side hustle, where I worked very part time
Jordan Grumet:
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for a hospice as a medical director. I got a little stipend
Jordan Grumet:
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for doing it, and so I had already incorporated that into
Jordan Grumet:
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my work life. And as I started subtracting out all I didn't
Jordan Grumet:
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like it was the one thing I realized I would do, even if
Jordan Grumet:
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someone wasn't paying me for it. And that's how I kind of knew
Jordan Grumet:
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that there was this kernel of purpose in that, and that even
Jordan Grumet:
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if I decided I didn't want to be a doctor anymore, I still wanted
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:45
to do that.
Gary Michels:
00:03:46
You know, often when you talk about hospice,
Gary Michels:
00:03:49
there's misconceptions people have, and they don't really
Gary Michels:
00:03:52
know. So what are some common misconceptions about hospice
Gary Michels:
00:03:56
care?
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:57
Well, the first thing I always get is, wow, you
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:59
work in hospice that must be hard or that must be depressing.
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:02
And it's funny because I say the exact opposite. There were so
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:04
many things that were hard and depressing about doing general
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:07
internal medicine. Being people's intern is taking care
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:09
of people in the hospital. I actually find hospice really
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:13
uplifting, because all the other doctors have told the poor
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:16
patient, there's nothing you can do. We're done. And then I get
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:19
to walk in and say, whoa, wait, there's tons of things we can
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:21
do. We can help control your symptoms. We can help you die in
Jordan Grumet:
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the place you want to die. We can help you see each day as a
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:28
gift up into the moment you die. And so that feels very
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:32
empowering. So the mistake most people think is, when you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:35
given a terminal diagnosis, that life ends. But what I've found
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:38
is that even the dying wake up every morning with a plan for
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:42
the day and with the right type of care and hospice care and
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:44
those kind of things, we can help you experience those kind
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:47
of things you want to experience. You can hopefully
Jordan Grumet:
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see some of those people you want to see. You can talk to
Jordan Grumet:
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those other people. You can do some things that are really
Jordan Grumet:
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nurturing and growth oriented, even in your last days. And so.
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:59
Think that's where the mistake most people make is they think
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:02
the moment you get the diagnosis, life ends. And I say,
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:05
No, no, you're kind of living until the moment you die. And so
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:08
we try to make that life as good as possible for however much
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:12
time you have left.
Gary Michels:
00:05:13
So working in hospice care, you spend a lot of
Gary Michels:
00:05:15
time with people who were really reflecting on things about what
Gary Michels:
00:05:19
their mission and purpose has been in life. You argue America
Gary Michels:
00:05:23
is currently undergoing a purpose crisis. Can you explain?
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:27
Certainly. And part of the reason is, I think
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:29
we get purpose wrong. So let's talk about why we get purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:32
wrong. I usually talk about purpose being two different
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:35
things, and one of them is associated with health,
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:37
happiness and longevity. That's what I call little P purpose.
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:40
I'll explain the difference in a moment. And the other is what I
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:42
call big P purpose, which is big audacious purpose, and it
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:45
probably is more associated with anxiety. In fact, studies show
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:49
that up to 91% of people at some point in their life have what's
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:52
called purpose anxiety. They get stressed and anxious and
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:55
frustrated at this idea of, quote, unquote, finding their
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:58
purpose so big P purpose is audacious. It's goal oriented,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:03
and it's usually really hard to achieve, because in America, we
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:06
say, if you think it, you can do it. So think about becoming a
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:09
billionaire, having a seven figure business, traveling to
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:14
all sorts of great countries, wearing the nice clothes. All
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:17
those kind of things are kind of big P purpose. Little P purpose,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:20
on the other hand, isn't goal oriented. It's process oriented.
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:23
So it's very abundant. It's like doing what lights you up. And so
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:26
if you think about it, there are a million things you could do
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:28
that you really love to do, and there's no way to fail. You
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:30
start doing something you don't like doing it, just do something
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:32
else. So why are we having a purpose crisis in America?
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:36
Because every influence out there is trying to tell us to
Jordan Grumet:
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grasp on to big purpose. What do I mean by that? Well, if you go
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:44
onto Tiktok or Instagram, what you're seeing is people who are,
Jordan Grumet:
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you know, billionaires and traveling to every country and
Jordan Grumet:
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wearing the nice clothes and having the six pack abs, or if
Jordan Grumet:
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you look at things like television and marketing,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:58
they're showing us images of what the good life looks like,
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:01
and often those things are really hard to achieve. Like,
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:03
not everyone can have six pack abs, not everyone can become a
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:06
billionaire. In fact, most people can't. In fact, you have
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:09
to be the right person at the right time, saying the right
Jordan Grumet:
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things, with the right genetics and a bunch of luck to get
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:13
there. And so what happens to most people who go after big P
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:16
purpose? They fail. And so the world is trying to get us to co
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:21
opt that version of purpose. Why? Because influencers want to
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:24
sell things, and they want you to follow them. Advertisers want
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:28
you to buy their products. So if they can just sell you this big,
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:31
audacious version of purpose, they can get you to buy their
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:34
thing. But that version of purpose is making us feel
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:37
horrible, and that's why there's a crisis, because everybody is
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:41
telling us what to be, and usually those things aren't
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:43
particularly healthy for us, and they don't particularly make us
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:45
happy. Big P purpose is always bad because it's goal oriented.
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:51
And so here's the problem with big P purpose, we make these
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:54
huge, big, audacious goals, and often it causes us to do things
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:57
we don't enjoy the process of doing. Let me talk about
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:00
podcasting. I love podcasting. I'm a podcaster. When I podcast,
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:04
it is little P purpose for me, which means I love doing it. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:07
get in front of the mic and I interview someone, and that hour
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:10
is the best time of my life, even if no one ever hears that
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:13
episode. It was so worth it because I enjoyed the process of
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:16
doing it. But I could decide that I want a million downloads
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:20
a month, and that could be my big audacious goal. But here's
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:23
the problem, in order to get there, I'm going to have to do
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:26
some work, and part of that work is going to be things I really
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:29
hate doing, like I don't like making Tiktok reels, I don't
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:32
like being on Instagram, but if I really want to get those
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:36
million views, I'm going to have to do that. So what I'm going to
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:39
do is I'm going to spend all my time doing things I don't like
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:42
85 90% of my time so that I can reach that goal, which I'm happy
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:46
with for about 5% of the time. And then I habituate back to my
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:49
regular level of happiness. And then I gotta double down and go
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:53
after 2 million and then I'm back to doing things I don't
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:55
like doing. You can have big, audacious goals, but when you
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:59
pursue little P purpose, you are goal agnostic. What does that
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:03
mean? So I can love podcasting, and I can decide that a million
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:07
downloads a month is my big, audacious goal, but it's still
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:11
little P purpose, because guess what? If I get there, great. If
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:14
I don't get there, great, because I'm still doing
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:16
something I love doing. It only becomes big P purpose when you
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:20
start changing what you're doing to things you don't enjoy the
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:23
process of doing, and that's where we go wrong.
Gary Michels:
00:09:26
But is there a middle ground a little bit?
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:28
Here's where I run into problems. So I am a
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:31
doctor, right? Which means I've been surrounded by achievement
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:34
junkies my whole life. And so a lot of people make that
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:37
argument. It's like, well, I like achieving. I want to change
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:39
the world. What's wrong with a little big, audacious purpose,
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:44
like, I want to be driven to do these big, awesome things. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:47
mean, that's how we kill it, right? You do all these big
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:49
dozen things. Here's what I generally found, and it actually
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:52
has to do with the difference between meaning and purpose. And
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:55
so I think happiness is meaning and purpose. You need both. A
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:58
lot of people look at me and go, well. Are crazy. Meaning and
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:00
purpose are the same thing. Here's where I think they're
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:02
different and why it's important. Meaning is about our
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:05
past and it's all about our thoughts. It's the stories we
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:10
tell ourselves about ourselves, and it's generally a journey to
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:13
enough. What I mean is happy people tend to tell themselves
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:16
heroic stories about their past. They see the past, they realize
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:19
there was hardship and trauma and difficulty, but they were
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:22
able to get through it, and that's why they are where they
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:25
are today. And then they look at the present future and say,
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:28
Well, I was able to get through in the past, so I'm going to do
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:30
well in the present future. They feel like they're enough on the
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:33
inside, and so they'll continue to be enough. Unhappy. People
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:37
tend to tell themselves a victim story about the past. The story
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:40
they tell about their past is, I had these traumas, I had these
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:43
problems, and I was thwarted, and so when you get to the
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:46
present, they still feel thwarted, and they feel they'll
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:48
be thwarted in the present and future. So they never feel like
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:51
they made it to enough. Purpose is very different from meaning.
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:56
It's not about your thoughts and it's not about your past. It's
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:58
about your present and future, and it's all about actions. It's
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:01
doing the things that light us up. Here's where people go
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:04
wrong. They go wrong when they don't have a good sense of
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:07
meaning and they don't feel enough. And so instead of going
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:10
back and dealing with that not feeling enough, they try to
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:13
purpose their way to enough, or purpose their way to happiness.
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:16
How do they do that? They set a bunch of big, audacious goals,
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:18
and they convince themselves, if they just reach those goals,
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:21
they're going to be happy. I call this the achievement
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:24
treadmill. It's those people who keep on running on the
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:26
treadmill, getting achievement after achievement, and they
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:27
still think they're going to make them happy, and they don't,
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:30
and they have to go to the next big, audacious goal to get
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:33
there. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. These are two people who've
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:37
achieved almost everything. They've made almost all the
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:39
money there is to make in the world, and both of them have
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:41
looked mostly miserable most of their lives. The reason is, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:45
believe, is they have an issue of meaning. Steve Jobs was
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:48
adopted, and it's been well documented that he never came to
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:51
terms with this idea, that he never felt he was enough through
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:53
his adoption issues, and he kept on trying to prove himself
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:56
through creating all this amazing stuff. Elon Musk
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:59
suffered issues with his dad and got teased as a kid. I think a
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:03
lot of this is a meaning problem. So what's wrong with
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:05
the big, audacious goals and pushing ourselves to achieve
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:08
more? I think we're trying to prove our enoughness, and you
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:12
could be as successful as Elon Musk and Steve Jobs, and it
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:15
still won't make you actually happy. It'll just make you
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:18
double down and want to reach the next thing. And so that's my
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:22
problem, being two achievement and big P purpose oriented is a
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:26
lot of people are trying to prove their enoughness with it,
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:28
and it just doesn't work. The way you prove you're enough is
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:30
to go back and deal with meaning, not necessarily. Can't
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:34
purpose your way there. And so I think you set yourself up to be
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:37
a little bit unhappy as long as you're enjoying what you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:40
doing, that's fine.
Gary Michels:
00:12:42
I know that purpose is a big part of
Gary Michels:
00:12:44
hospice. So you say that up to 91% of us are impacted by
Gary Michels:
00:12:49
purpose anxiety. Where did that number come from, and what led
Gary Michels:
00:12:53
to 91%?
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:55
So Larissa Rainey is a researcher who basically
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:59
did one of the Sentinel papers on purpose anxiety. Back, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:05
think it was in 2012 or maybe 2014 and so she was the one who
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:10
conducted the research that showed that up to 91% of people
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:16
at some point in their life have had purpose anxiety. So why
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:22
purpose anxiety? Because most people are trying to find their
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:28
purpose, and you don't really find purpose. You build it, but
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:33
you do have to decide what to build purpose around. And most
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:39
of us, because of social media, because of society, we're trying
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:45
to build purpose around these really big, goal oriented,
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:50
difficult things to pursue. And so we feel lots of anxiety,
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:56
because a lot of times we set the goal so high we can't reach
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:02
it, and a lot of times we find ourselves doing things we don't
Gary Michels:
00:14:07
What is the purpose paradox?
Gary Michels:
00:14:08
like in service of these goals that we either do or don't meet,
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:09
Well, that's the paradox. So if you look at the
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:11
data, pursuing a version of purpose in life, if you look at
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:14
but you kind of lost already if you don't enjoy what you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:14
all the studies, is associated with health, happiness and
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:17
longevity, I mean, you do so much better if you have a sense
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:19
doing in service of that goal, at least on a regular basis. And
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:20
of purpose in your life. And there are tons of studies that
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:23
show this, but then there are other other studies that show
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:25
so that's why there's so much purpose anxiety, is because a
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:26
that up to 91% of people have purpose anxieties. The question
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:28
is, how can it be like both the most nourishing thing that gives
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:31
lot of times, really, all these forces are pushing us to do
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:32
us the health, happiness and longevity, but also the most
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:34
frustrating thing that gives us all the anxiety? What I believe
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:37
stuff that probably doesn't light us up, that probably isn't
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:37
is we get purpose wrong. We think it's only one thing, but
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:40
it's actually two things, and one of those things is healthy
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:42
unique to us, but it's some version of either what society
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:43
for you, and one of them isn't. That's that differentiation.
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:46
Little P purpose is probably what's associated with all those
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:48
is trying to tell us or what society is trying to sell us.
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:49
good things, and big P purpose is probably what's more
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:51
associated with the anxiety and stress.
Gary Michels:
00:14:53
I got it. Now, how are purpose and legacy
Gary Michels:
00:14:57
connected? Because I know when you're with these people in
Gary Michels:
00:15:01
hospice, I'm sure things come up, what they want to leave
Gary Michels:
00:15:05
behind, not just money wise, but memories and thoughts and
Gary Michels:
00:15:08
relationships. How are they connected?
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:11
Well, here's the thing, most people think the way
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:13
to have impact in legacy is big P big audacious purposes, like
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:17
I'm going to, you know, solve cancer, or I'm going to travel
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:19
to Mars, or I'm going to become a president, and those are the
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:22
things that are going to give them this lasting impact and
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:25
legacy. I actually argue the exact opposite. It's little
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:28
people purpose doing things that light us up, that actually
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:31
connect us to other people. I'm not worried about a financial
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:34
legacy. That's just a financial plan. I'm looking at leaving a
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:38
part of yourself that exists even after you've left this
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:41
world. So I always give the example, actually, of my
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:43
maternal grandfather. My maternal grandfather was born
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:47
and lived throughout the mid 1900s he, in fact, died in the
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:50
1960s so I was born in 1973 I never even met him, but he had a
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:54
version of purpose that was very much little P purpose. He loved
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:57
math, not because he could make a living at it, not because it
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:00
was going to change the world. He loved it, because he just
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:01
loved it. So back in the 1950s when my mom was a little girl,
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:04
she'd sit on his lab and he would show her all his
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:07
spreadsheets where he was writing in all the numbers in
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:09
the boxes, and he was lit up and excited about this. So my mom
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:13
did what kids do is she tried on that identity. She's like, Well,
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:15
my dad loves this. Maybe this fits me. She found it did, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:18
she eventually became a CPA just like him. Here's where the magic
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:21
comes in. When I was a little kid, I had a learning disability
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:24
and couldn't read. And in fact, while all my friends were on
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:26
their basic readers, I was pretty much coloring with a
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:29
crayon in a drawing book. Basically, I wasn't making any
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:32
headway. I would have thought I was lost, except I was really
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:35
good at math. In fact, I was at the top of my class at math,
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:37
because, like my mother, I had taken on some of that identity
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:41
because I saw that she loved it. It was her purpose. I thought
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:45
this is something I could do too. I eventually got over my
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:48
learning disability. I became a doctor, and in my early days as
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:51
a doctor, I had a patient who came into the hospital, a young
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:53
guy who kept on getting admitted almost near death with
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:56
dehydration. Because I loved math, I happened to notice a
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:59
connection between two of his lab results, and we diagnosed
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:02
him with a rare disease. That rare disease we treated with a
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:06
simple medicine. And guess what happened? He was a pastor at a
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:09
church, and he took in homeless kids and would give them
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:12
shelter, connect them to social services, all those kind of
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:14
things. So let's think about this, my maternal grandfather,
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:18
who died in the 1960s because of his love of math, like a pebble
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:23
dropped in the ocean, it displaced a touch of water, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:26
that water formed waves that added to other waves at times to
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:30
become big and mighty and got smaller at other times and
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:33
dissipated. But over 60 years, it's still landing on beaches
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:37
hundreds of miles away. His life had impact. It had legacy. Part
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:42
of him still exists because of what he loved, and I think
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:46
that's a lot more attainable for people than to worry about all
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:49
these big, audacious things they're gonna do, which they may
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:52
or may not succeed at.
Gary Michels:
00:17:53
What does legacy mean to you in general?
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:56
I think it's the piece of you that you leave
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:58
behind once you're gone, and so there's a touch of that that's
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:01
financial, right? You leave money, and that helps your kids
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:03
and grandkids, etc. But a lot of it are those things you loved
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:07
that you modeled for your family and touched their lives, and you
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:10
gave them permission to maybe seek out the same things, maybe
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:14
to do their own things. But we see this all the time, like in a
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:18
grandchild or a great grandchild, someone who has a
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:20
love of music that their great grandparent had, someone who
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:24
walks or has the mannerisms that their grandfather had. These are
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:28
parts of our legacy. It's the part of us that we pass along.
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:31
And the beautiful thing about that is your money will
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:33
disappear, and even the fantastic achievements you did
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:37
will probably disappear, but won't. What won't disappear
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:40
those pieces of yourself that you pass on. And so I think
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:43
that's legacy.
Gary Michels:
00:18:44
Now you've spoken with countless patients on their
Gary Michels:
00:18:47
deathbeds about their lives, their regrets, and what they
Gary Michels:
00:18:50
hope their legacy will be. Are there any stories in particular
Gary Michels:
00:18:55
that you felt were impactful to you or might be impactful to our
Gary Michels:
00:18:58
listeners that you'd like to share?
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:01
There are so many, it's hard to separate. And
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:04
what binds them all is people who either did the things that
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:09
were important to them, so they kind of died peacefully, or the
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:12
people who never addressed those things. And so I had to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:14
reconcile that at the end of life. And so one story I
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:18
actually tell about so I just wrote a book called The purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:20
code. It's all about purpose. But in my first book taking
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:23
stock, I actually tell a story which still is very profound to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:26
me today. I took care of a patient who back when he was in
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:32
his 20s, he had this dream, and the dream was to hike Mount
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:37
Everest. He wanted to climb Mount Everest, and he was in the
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:40
middle of a corporate career, and he was doing really, really
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:43
well, and he was moving up. And he decided in his early 20s to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:47
take a year off, which everyone told him he shouldn't do, to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:50
train and then to go climb Mount Everest. And so he did that. He
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:55
trained. He went to climb Mount Everest. They made it past base
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:58
camp. The weather change. First. He eventually had to come back
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:01
down. They never made it to the top. He ran out of time. He went
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:04
back to working. I met him in his 40s when he was dying of
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:07
leukemia, and all he wanted to talk about was his time on Mount
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:11
Everest. All he wanted to talk about was what it felt like to
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:14
be out there trying to climb this fantastic mountain. He
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:19
didn't complain that he failed, right? He ultimately didn't make
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:23
it. But what he really regaled us with was this idea that he
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:27
had the courage to do this thing that was deeply important to him
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:31
and that really had an impact on me. Doesn't matter if you
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:35
succeed or fail, but one day, you're going to die and you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:38
going to look back and say, did I do those things that were
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:40
deeply important to me, or did I put them off? So he failed the
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:43
big, audacious goal of getting to the top, but he loved the
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:46
process, and that's all that mattered, right, right? And so
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:50
he could have, back in his 20s, he could have said, You know
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:52
what, everyone's right, I should stick to my career. I'm gonna
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:54
keep moving up. I'll get to it later. Well, the poor guy died
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:58
in his 40s. There never may have been a later.
Gary Michels:
00:21:01
What is a hospice life review and how can it help
Gary Michels:
00:21:05
anyone at any age live a more purposeful life?
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:10
So, a hospice life review is something we do
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:12
with patients after they come on hospice, and we get them
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:14
comfortable, and we make sure they're dying the place they
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:16
want to, whether that's a nursing home or the hospital at
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:18
home. A lot of times a doctor or social worker or nurse or a
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:23
chaplain will do something called a life review. It's a
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:26
series of structured questions where we ask them about their
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:29
lives, what were the most important moments, what were
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:31
their biggest successes, what were their biggest failures? And
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:33
the one I specifically want to focus on is, what are their
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:37
regrets? And so this is an attempt to help reconcile their
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:41
life, even though they don't have the agency to change things
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:44
anymore, right? They're not going to go back and climb Mount
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:46
Everest if they didn't do it, they didn't do it. But here's
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:50
where the magic comes in. What if we take that knowledge and
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:53
bring it to young people and other people who aren't dying?
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:56
What if we ask them that big question, if you found out you
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:59
were going to die next week, what would you regret that you
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:02
never had the energy, courage or time to do? And once you figure
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:06
out what those regrets are, let's turn those into what I
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:09
call purpose anchors. Those are inklings of something that could
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:11
be purposeful. And then let's build a life of purpose around
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:14
them. Let me give you a great example. I came to the
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:17
conclusion about 10 years ago that if I didn't traditionally
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:19
publish a book and I died, I would always regret that I never
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:22
tried. And so for me, that was something I could turn from a
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:26
regret into a purpose anchor. And so I started building a life
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:29
of purpose around that, and eventually wrote my first book,
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:31
taking stock. And so I think this idea of using regrets to
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:36
our benefit is something that we all should be doing. Take a
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:39
lesson from the dying. Let's start thinking about it a lot
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:42
earlier, though.
Gary Michels:
00:22:43
Yeah, I love that. What are a few tactical tips for
Gary Michels:
00:22:47
setting up a lasting, positive legacy?
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:51
The tips are to start thinking about purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:53
now. Little P purpose, what you like the process of doing, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:56
start building a life around it. And so what I always get all the
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:00
time, as people say to me, Well, that's easy, you know, just find
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:03
your purpose. And they say, but I don't know how to find my
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:05
purpose. I've been trying forever. And so what I always
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:07
say is, you don't find your purpose. You build it. But it is
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:09
true, you need these Inklings, these beckonings, these purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:12
anchors, to start building a life of purpose around. So it is
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:16
true, there's some ways to start thinking about purpose anchors.
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:19
We just talked about one, which is the life review and the
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:21
regret question, that's a great way to start think about what
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:24
you'd regret if you were dying. And let's turn that into a
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:26
purpose anchor, another easy way. I won't go through all of
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:29
them, but another easy way to start thinking about purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:31
anchors. Think about your joys of childhood like, what did you
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:34
love when you were a kid? A lot of times, as we get older, we
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:36
start focusing on school and we drop all those things that feel
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:39
purposeful to us. So what were the posters? What were the
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:42
drawings? What were the metals you had in your childhood room?
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:45
Could those be some purpose anchors last but not least, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:47
I described this with my career. If you subtracted everything you
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:50
didn't like about your career, what would be left when I
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:52
subtracted everything I didn't like about being a doctor, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:54
found a purpose anchor, which was hospice work. And so those
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:57
are some real constructive ways to start building purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:00
anchors so that you can then start creating the life you want
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:02
to live full of purpose.
Gary Michels:
00:24:04
Couple of last questions for you; what legacy
Gary Michels:
00:24:06
do you hope to leave behind for your work and the patients that
Gary Michels:
00:24:10
you serve?
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:11
I'll tell you that that's an interesting
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:13
question, because I don't really plan to leave a legacy in the
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:15
people I serve. In fact, I don't even want them to know my name.
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:19
I want to be behind the scenes, helping the nurses and chaplains
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:21
and so social workers take care of them. So my job as a hospice
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:25
doctor is actually really easy. It's the nurses, the chaplains,
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:28
the social workers and the certified nursing assistants who
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:30
are doing all the difficult, hands on care. So the legacy
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:34
through hospice is to pretty much say, Look, everyone asks
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:38
me, how do I have a good death? I mean, I get that all the time,
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:41
especially young people, like you're a hospice doctor, you
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:43
know, how do I assure that I have a good death? And I always
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:46
tell people, you tend to die the way you live. And so if you
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:49
lived a good, happy life, you're gonna have a good, happy death.
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:51
And if you lived an anxiety filled unhappy life, you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:54
probably gonna have an unhappy death. So the way to have a good
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:57
death is to have a good life. And so the way to have. A good
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:00
life is to start thinking about these really important things
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:02
now, and that gets back to purpose. The legacy for the kids
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:06
is much easier, right? So for my kids, my legacy is to model a
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:11
deeply engaged adult who's pursuing really purposeful
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:15
activities, because I want them to have that model so they can
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:18
go and pursue their own purposeful, light filled life.
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:22
And so that's really the legacy I want for them. Is I want them
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:25
to see me so deeply engaged in my life that they build a life
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:29
exactly the same for themselves, so they feel all that kind of
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:32
same joy and fulfillment that I've spent, you know, a good 50
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:36
years trying to get to.
Gary Michels:
00:25:37
Awesome. I love it. So if someone wanted to get
Gary Michels:
00:25:40
in touch with you, get your book, have you help them in any
Gary Michels:
00:25:43
part of their lives, how would they reach you?
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:45
So the best way is to go to JordanGrumet.com
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:48
that's J O R, D, A N, G, R, U, m, e, t.com, there you can see
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:52
links to both of my books Taking Stock and The Purpose Code, as
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:55
well as all the places I create content. The two main ones right
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:58
now are the earned and invest podcast as well as the purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:26:01
code, sub stack. You can get all of that at JordanGrumet.com.
Gary Michels:
00:26:05
Awesome. Well, I thank you for spending time with
Gary Michels:
00:26:08
us today. It was a great discussion, and it got me
Gary Michels:
00:26:11
thinking. Thank you so much.
Jordan Grumet:
00:26:13
Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.
00:00:00
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
Gary Michels:
00:00:02
Michels, and today we have Jordan Grumet. Jordan Grumet is
Gary Michels:
00:00:05
a hospice medical director and the author of The Purpose Code,
Gary Michels:
00:00:10
How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness and Leave a Lasting
Gary Michels:
00:00:15
Legacy. Welcome to the show.
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:17
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:19
the conversation.
Gary Michels:
00:00:20
Absolutely so your life took an unexpected turn
Gary Michels:
00:00:23
after a profound personal loss reshaped your trajectory and led
Gary Michels:
00:00:28
you towards your medical career. Could you share a little bit
Gary Michels:
00:00:31
about your story with us?
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:32
Certainly. I was seven years old when my dad
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:35
died. He died suddenly. He was 40 at the time. He was rounding
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:38
at the hospital. He was an oncologist or cancer doctor, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:41
he got a severe headache, had a blood vessel burst in his brain,
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:45
and died pretty quickly thereafter. And being seven
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:48
years old, I saw the world through a very selfish lens. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:51
figured if he died, it must be something I did wrong or I
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:54
wasn't good enough, and so I single handedly decided that I
Jordan Grumet:
00:00:59
could solve this tragic loss by just becoming a doctor like he
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:03
did, and that became my sole version of purpose, a big,
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:06
audacious version of purpose in which not only did I save the
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:09
world by helping people, but I could somehow undo this bad
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:13
thing that happened to me when I was a kid. So originally, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:16
found a lot of fulfillment in it. This idea that I had
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:19
something that I was supposed to do really engaged me, and so I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:23
worked really hard. I had a learning disability when I was a
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:24
kid, and I got over that, and I went to high school and college,
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:27
and I was the kid who was always studying while everyone else was
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:29
out having fun. It was my sole version of purpose and identity
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:33
for many years, and it did serve me until I started practicing
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:36
medicine and realized there was a lot I didn't like about it. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:39
didn't like the hours, I didn't like the paperwork. I so often
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:42
felt like I wasn't helping people as much as I wanted to.
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:45
And at some point, I had that epiphany that no matter how good
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:48
a doctor I was, A, I wasn't going to save everyone, and B, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:52
wasn't going to undo the tragedy. My dad wasn't back. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:55
had become a doctor. I had done this big, audacious thing. I was
Jordan Grumet:
00:01:58
supposed to be feeling good, and I realized that I kind of CO
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:02
opted his version of purpose, because I thought it would save
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:05
everything and fix everything, but I wasn't very connected to
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:08
the work like I found a bunch of his notebooks one day as an
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:11
adult, we were cleaning out my mom's addict and I was looking
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:15
at his notebooks and seeing the loving notes he had taken on all
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:19
the biological pathways, And I could just tell by these notes
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:22
how much he loved it, and I had none of that like I didn't enjoy
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:26
it nearly as much. It didn't light me up. And so it was
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:29
really epiphany to realize that even though it felt like a real
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:32
sense of purpose and did fill me up for some point, when I
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:35
actually got there, it didn't.
Gary Michels:
00:02:37
Wow. So you decided to make a jump right
Gary Michels:
00:02:40
from internal medicine to hospice. Where did that come
Gary Michels:
00:02:44
from?
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:45
So I got so burned out in medicine, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:48
started looking for ways out. But what the heck am I going to
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:51
do with myself? I had no idea. So instead of throwing the baby
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:54
out with the bath water, I just started getting rid of things I
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:56
didn't like in my medical practice. I didn't like owning
Jordan Grumet:
00:02:59
my own practice, so I got rid of that. I didn't like working in
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:01
nursing homes, so I got rid of that. What of that. When I got
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:03
rid of everything that I didn't like, I was left with one thing
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:06
I loved, which was doing hospice work. About five years into my
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:11
career, I was taking care of a dying patient. We called
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:13
hospice. They came saw the dying patient. I had kind of done
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:16
everything they needed to have done before they even got there.
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:19
So they looked at me and they said, you're really good at
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:20
this. Why don't you come work for us? So I started almost what
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:23
I call a medical side hustle, where I worked very part time
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:26
for a hospice as a medical director. I got a little stipend
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:29
for doing it, and so I had already incorporated that into
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:31
my work life. And as I started subtracting out all I didn't
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:34
like it was the one thing I realized I would do, even if
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:36
someone wasn't paying me for it. And that's how I kind of knew
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:39
that there was this kernel of purpose in that, and that even
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:42
if I decided I didn't want to be a doctor anymore, I still wanted
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:45
to do that.
Gary Michels:
00:03:46
You know, often when you talk about hospice,
Gary Michels:
00:03:49
there's misconceptions people have, and they don't really
Gary Michels:
00:03:52
know. So what are some common misconceptions about hospice
Gary Michels:
00:03:56
care?
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:57
Well, the first thing I always get is, wow, you
Jordan Grumet:
00:03:59
work in hospice that must be hard or that must be depressing.
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:02
And it's funny because I say the exact opposite. There were so
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:04
many things that were hard and depressing about doing general
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:07
internal medicine. Being people's intern is taking care
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:09
of people in the hospital. I actually find hospice really
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:13
uplifting, because all the other doctors have told the poor
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:16
patient, there's nothing you can do. We're done. And then I get
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:19
to walk in and say, whoa, wait, there's tons of things we can
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:21
do. We can help control your symptoms. We can help you die in
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:25
the place you want to die. We can help you see each day as a
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:28
gift up into the moment you die. And so that feels very
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:32
empowering. So the mistake most people think is, when you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:35
given a terminal diagnosis, that life ends. But what I've found
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:38
is that even the dying wake up every morning with a plan for
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:42
the day and with the right type of care and hospice care and
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:44
those kind of things, we can help you experience those kind
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:47
of things you want to experience. You can hopefully
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:49
see some of those people you want to see. You can talk to
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:52
those other people. You can do some things that are really
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:55
nurturing and growth oriented, even in your last days. And so.
Jordan Grumet:
00:04:59
Think that's where the mistake most people make is they think
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:02
the moment you get the diagnosis, life ends. And I say,
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:05
No, no, you're kind of living until the moment you die. And so
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:08
we try to make that life as good as possible for however much
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:12
time you have left.
Gary Michels:
00:05:13
So working in hospice care, you spend a lot of
Gary Michels:
00:05:15
time with people who were really reflecting on things about what
Gary Michels:
00:05:19
their mission and purpose has been in life. You argue America
Gary Michels:
00:05:23
is currently undergoing a purpose crisis. Can you explain?
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:27
Certainly. And part of the reason is, I think
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:29
we get purpose wrong. So let's talk about why we get purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:32
wrong. I usually talk about purpose being two different
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:35
things, and one of them is associated with health,
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:37
happiness and longevity. That's what I call little P purpose.
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:40
I'll explain the difference in a moment. And the other is what I
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:42
call big P purpose, which is big audacious purpose, and it
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:45
probably is more associated with anxiety. In fact, studies show
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:49
that up to 91% of people at some point in their life have what's
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:52
called purpose anxiety. They get stressed and anxious and
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:55
frustrated at this idea of, quote, unquote, finding their
Jordan Grumet:
00:05:58
purpose so big P purpose is audacious. It's goal oriented,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:03
and it's usually really hard to achieve, because in America, we
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:06
say, if you think it, you can do it. So think about becoming a
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:09
billionaire, having a seven figure business, traveling to
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:14
all sorts of great countries, wearing the nice clothes. All
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:17
those kind of things are kind of big P purpose. Little P purpose,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:20
on the other hand, isn't goal oriented. It's process oriented.
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:23
So it's very abundant. It's like doing what lights you up. And so
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:26
if you think about it, there are a million things you could do
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:28
that you really love to do, and there's no way to fail. You
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:30
start doing something you don't like doing it, just do something
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:32
else. So why are we having a purpose crisis in America?
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:36
Because every influence out there is trying to tell us to
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:39
grasp on to big purpose. What do I mean by that? Well, if you go
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:44
onto Tiktok or Instagram, what you're seeing is people who are,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:48
you know, billionaires and traveling to every country and
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:52
wearing the nice clothes and having the six pack abs, or if
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:55
you look at things like television and marketing,
Jordan Grumet:
00:06:58
they're showing us images of what the good life looks like,
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:01
and often those things are really hard to achieve. Like,
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:03
not everyone can have six pack abs, not everyone can become a
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:06
billionaire. In fact, most people can't. In fact, you have
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:09
to be the right person at the right time, saying the right
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:10
things, with the right genetics and a bunch of luck to get
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:13
there. And so what happens to most people who go after big P
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:16
purpose? They fail. And so the world is trying to get us to co
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:21
opt that version of purpose. Why? Because influencers want to
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:24
sell things, and they want you to follow them. Advertisers want
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:28
you to buy their products. So if they can just sell you this big,
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:31
audacious version of purpose, they can get you to buy their
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:34
thing. But that version of purpose is making us feel
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:37
horrible, and that's why there's a crisis, because everybody is
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:41
telling us what to be, and usually those things aren't
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:43
particularly healthy for us, and they don't particularly make us
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:45
happy. Big P purpose is always bad because it's goal oriented.
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:51
And so here's the problem with big P purpose, we make these
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:54
huge, big, audacious goals, and often it causes us to do things
Jordan Grumet:
00:07:57
we don't enjoy the process of doing. Let me talk about
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:00
podcasting. I love podcasting. I'm a podcaster. When I podcast,
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:04
it is little P purpose for me, which means I love doing it. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:07
get in front of the mic and I interview someone, and that hour
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:10
is the best time of my life, even if no one ever hears that
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:13
episode. It was so worth it because I enjoyed the process of
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:16
doing it. But I could decide that I want a million downloads
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:20
a month, and that could be my big audacious goal. But here's
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:23
the problem, in order to get there, I'm going to have to do
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:26
some work, and part of that work is going to be things I really
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:29
hate doing, like I don't like making Tiktok reels, I don't
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:32
like being on Instagram, but if I really want to get those
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:36
million views, I'm going to have to do that. So what I'm going to
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:39
do is I'm going to spend all my time doing things I don't like
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:42
85 90% of my time so that I can reach that goal, which I'm happy
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:46
with for about 5% of the time. And then I habituate back to my
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:49
regular level of happiness. And then I gotta double down and go
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:53
after 2 million and then I'm back to doing things I don't
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:55
like doing. You can have big, audacious goals, but when you
Jordan Grumet:
00:08:59
pursue little P purpose, you are goal agnostic. What does that
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:03
mean? So I can love podcasting, and I can decide that a million
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:07
downloads a month is my big, audacious goal, but it's still
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:11
little P purpose, because guess what? If I get there, great. If
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:14
I don't get there, great, because I'm still doing
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:16
something I love doing. It only becomes big P purpose when you
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:20
start changing what you're doing to things you don't enjoy the
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:23
process of doing, and that's where we go wrong.
Gary Michels:
00:09:26
But is there a middle ground a little bit?
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:28
Here's where I run into problems. So I am a
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:31
doctor, right? Which means I've been surrounded by achievement
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:34
junkies my whole life. And so a lot of people make that
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:37
argument. It's like, well, I like achieving. I want to change
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:39
the world. What's wrong with a little big, audacious purpose,
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:44
like, I want to be driven to do these big, awesome things. I
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:47
mean, that's how we kill it, right? You do all these big
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:49
dozen things. Here's what I generally found, and it actually
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:52
has to do with the difference between meaning and purpose. And
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:55
so I think happiness is meaning and purpose. You need both. A
Jordan Grumet:
00:09:58
lot of people look at me and go, well. Are crazy. Meaning and
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:00
purpose are the same thing. Here's where I think they're
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:02
different and why it's important. Meaning is about our
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:05
past and it's all about our thoughts. It's the stories we
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:10
tell ourselves about ourselves, and it's generally a journey to
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:13
enough. What I mean is happy people tend to tell themselves
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:16
heroic stories about their past. They see the past, they realize
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:19
there was hardship and trauma and difficulty, but they were
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:22
able to get through it, and that's why they are where they
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:25
are today. And then they look at the present future and say,
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:28
Well, I was able to get through in the past, so I'm going to do
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:30
well in the present future. They feel like they're enough on the
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:33
inside, and so they'll continue to be enough. Unhappy. People
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:37
tend to tell themselves a victim story about the past. The story
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:40
they tell about their past is, I had these traumas, I had these
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:43
problems, and I was thwarted, and so when you get to the
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:46
present, they still feel thwarted, and they feel they'll
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:48
be thwarted in the present and future. So they never feel like
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:51
they made it to enough. Purpose is very different from meaning.
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:56
It's not about your thoughts and it's not about your past. It's
Jordan Grumet:
00:10:58
about your present and future, and it's all about actions. It's
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:01
doing the things that light us up. Here's where people go
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:04
wrong. They go wrong when they don't have a good sense of
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:07
meaning and they don't feel enough. And so instead of going
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:10
back and dealing with that not feeling enough, they try to
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:13
purpose their way to enough, or purpose their way to happiness.
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:16
How do they do that? They set a bunch of big, audacious goals,
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:18
and they convince themselves, if they just reach those goals,
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:21
they're going to be happy. I call this the achievement
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:24
treadmill. It's those people who keep on running on the
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:26
treadmill, getting achievement after achievement, and they
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:27
still think they're going to make them happy, and they don't,
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:30
and they have to go to the next big, audacious goal to get
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:33
there. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. These are two people who've
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:37
achieved almost everything. They've made almost all the
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:39
money there is to make in the world, and both of them have
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:41
looked mostly miserable most of their lives. The reason is, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:45
believe, is they have an issue of meaning. Steve Jobs was
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:48
adopted, and it's been well documented that he never came to
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:51
terms with this idea, that he never felt he was enough through
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:53
his adoption issues, and he kept on trying to prove himself
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:56
through creating all this amazing stuff. Elon Musk
Jordan Grumet:
00:11:59
suffered issues with his dad and got teased as a kid. I think a
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:03
lot of this is a meaning problem. So what's wrong with
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:05
the big, audacious goals and pushing ourselves to achieve
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:08
more? I think we're trying to prove our enoughness, and you
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:12
could be as successful as Elon Musk and Steve Jobs, and it
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:15
still won't make you actually happy. It'll just make you
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:18
double down and want to reach the next thing. And so that's my
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:22
problem, being two achievement and big P purpose oriented is a
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:26
lot of people are trying to prove their enoughness with it,
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:28
and it just doesn't work. The way you prove you're enough is
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:30
to go back and deal with meaning, not necessarily. Can't
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:34
purpose your way there. And so I think you set yourself up to be
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:37
a little bit unhappy as long as you're enjoying what you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:40
doing, that's fine.
Gary Michels:
00:12:42
I know that purpose is a big part of
Gary Michels:
00:12:44
hospice. So you say that up to 91% of us are impacted by
Gary Michels:
00:12:49
purpose anxiety. Where did that number come from, and what led
Gary Michels:
00:12:53
to 91%?
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:55
So Larissa Rainey is a researcher who basically
Jordan Grumet:
00:12:59
did one of the Sentinel papers on purpose anxiety. Back, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:05
think it was in 2012 or maybe 2014 and so she was the one who
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:10
conducted the research that showed that up to 91% of people
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:16
at some point in their life have had purpose anxiety. So why
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:22
purpose anxiety? Because most people are trying to find their
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:28
purpose, and you don't really find purpose. You build it, but
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:33
you do have to decide what to build purpose around. And most
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:39
of us, because of social media, because of society, we're trying
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:45
to build purpose around these really big, goal oriented,
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:50
difficult things to pursue. And so we feel lots of anxiety,
Jordan Grumet:
00:13:56
because a lot of times we set the goal so high we can't reach
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:02
it, and a lot of times we find ourselves doing things we don't
Gary Michels:
00:14:07
What is the purpose paradox?
Gary Michels:
00:14:08
like in service of these goals that we either do or don't meet,
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:09
Well, that's the paradox. So if you look at the
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:11
data, pursuing a version of purpose in life, if you look at
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:14
but you kind of lost already if you don't enjoy what you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:14
all the studies, is associated with health, happiness and
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:17
longevity, I mean, you do so much better if you have a sense
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:19
doing in service of that goal, at least on a regular basis. And
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:20
of purpose in your life. And there are tons of studies that
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:23
show this, but then there are other other studies that show
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:25
so that's why there's so much purpose anxiety, is because a
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:26
that up to 91% of people have purpose anxieties. The question
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:28
is, how can it be like both the most nourishing thing that gives
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:31
lot of times, really, all these forces are pushing us to do
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:32
us the health, happiness and longevity, but also the most
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:34
frustrating thing that gives us all the anxiety? What I believe
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:37
stuff that probably doesn't light us up, that probably isn't
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:37
is we get purpose wrong. We think it's only one thing, but
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:40
it's actually two things, and one of those things is healthy
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:42
unique to us, but it's some version of either what society
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:43
for you, and one of them isn't. That's that differentiation.
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:46
Little P purpose is probably what's associated with all those
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:48
is trying to tell us or what society is trying to sell us.
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:49
good things, and big P purpose is probably what's more
Jordan Grumet:
00:14:51
associated with the anxiety and stress.
Gary Michels:
00:14:53
I got it. Now, how are purpose and legacy
Gary Michels:
00:14:57
connected? Because I know when you're with these people in
Gary Michels:
00:15:01
hospice, I'm sure things come up, what they want to leave
Gary Michels:
00:15:05
behind, not just money wise, but memories and thoughts and
Gary Michels:
00:15:08
relationships. How are they connected?
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:11
Well, here's the thing, most people think the way
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:13
to have impact in legacy is big P big audacious purposes, like
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:17
I'm going to, you know, solve cancer, or I'm going to travel
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:19
to Mars, or I'm going to become a president, and those are the
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:22
things that are going to give them this lasting impact and
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:25
legacy. I actually argue the exact opposite. It's little
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:28
people purpose doing things that light us up, that actually
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:31
connect us to other people. I'm not worried about a financial
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:34
legacy. That's just a financial plan. I'm looking at leaving a
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:38
part of yourself that exists even after you've left this
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:41
world. So I always give the example, actually, of my
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:43
maternal grandfather. My maternal grandfather was born
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:47
and lived throughout the mid 1900s he, in fact, died in the
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:50
1960s so I was born in 1973 I never even met him, but he had a
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:54
version of purpose that was very much little P purpose. He loved
Jordan Grumet:
00:15:57
math, not because he could make a living at it, not because it
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:00
was going to change the world. He loved it, because he just
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:01
loved it. So back in the 1950s when my mom was a little girl,
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:04
she'd sit on his lab and he would show her all his
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:07
spreadsheets where he was writing in all the numbers in
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:09
the boxes, and he was lit up and excited about this. So my mom
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:13
did what kids do is she tried on that identity. She's like, Well,
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:15
my dad loves this. Maybe this fits me. She found it did, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:18
she eventually became a CPA just like him. Here's where the magic
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:21
comes in. When I was a little kid, I had a learning disability
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:24
and couldn't read. And in fact, while all my friends were on
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:26
their basic readers, I was pretty much coloring with a
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:29
crayon in a drawing book. Basically, I wasn't making any
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:32
headway. I would have thought I was lost, except I was really
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:35
good at math. In fact, I was at the top of my class at math,
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:37
because, like my mother, I had taken on some of that identity
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:41
because I saw that she loved it. It was her purpose. I thought
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:45
this is something I could do too. I eventually got over my
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:48
learning disability. I became a doctor, and in my early days as
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:51
a doctor, I had a patient who came into the hospital, a young
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:53
guy who kept on getting admitted almost near death with
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:56
dehydration. Because I loved math, I happened to notice a
Jordan Grumet:
00:16:59
connection between two of his lab results, and we diagnosed
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:02
him with a rare disease. That rare disease we treated with a
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:06
simple medicine. And guess what happened? He was a pastor at a
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:09
church, and he took in homeless kids and would give them
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:12
shelter, connect them to social services, all those kind of
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:14
things. So let's think about this, my maternal grandfather,
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:18
who died in the 1960s because of his love of math, like a pebble
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:23
dropped in the ocean, it displaced a touch of water, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:26
that water formed waves that added to other waves at times to
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:30
become big and mighty and got smaller at other times and
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:33
dissipated. But over 60 years, it's still landing on beaches
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:37
hundreds of miles away. His life had impact. It had legacy. Part
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:42
of him still exists because of what he loved, and I think
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:46
that's a lot more attainable for people than to worry about all
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:49
these big, audacious things they're gonna do, which they may
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:52
or may not succeed at.
Gary Michels:
00:17:53
What does legacy mean to you in general?
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:56
I think it's the piece of you that you leave
Jordan Grumet:
00:17:58
behind once you're gone, and so there's a touch of that that's
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:01
financial, right? You leave money, and that helps your kids
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:03
and grandkids, etc. But a lot of it are those things you loved
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:07
that you modeled for your family and touched their lives, and you
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:10
gave them permission to maybe seek out the same things, maybe
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:14
to do their own things. But we see this all the time, like in a
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:18
grandchild or a great grandchild, someone who has a
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:20
love of music that their great grandparent had, someone who
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:24
walks or has the mannerisms that their grandfather had. These are
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:28
parts of our legacy. It's the part of us that we pass along.
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:31
And the beautiful thing about that is your money will
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:33
disappear, and even the fantastic achievements you did
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:37
will probably disappear, but won't. What won't disappear
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:40
those pieces of yourself that you pass on. And so I think
Jordan Grumet:
00:18:43
that's legacy.
Gary Michels:
00:18:44
Now you've spoken with countless patients on their
Gary Michels:
00:18:47
deathbeds about their lives, their regrets, and what they
Gary Michels:
00:18:50
hope their legacy will be. Are there any stories in particular
Gary Michels:
00:18:55
that you felt were impactful to you or might be impactful to our
Gary Michels:
00:18:58
listeners that you'd like to share?
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:01
There are so many, it's hard to separate. And
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:04
what binds them all is people who either did the things that
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:09
were important to them, so they kind of died peacefully, or the
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:12
people who never addressed those things. And so I had to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:14
reconcile that at the end of life. And so one story I
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:18
actually tell about so I just wrote a book called The purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:20
code. It's all about purpose. But in my first book taking
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:23
stock, I actually tell a story which still is very profound to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:26
me today. I took care of a patient who back when he was in
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:32
his 20s, he had this dream, and the dream was to hike Mount
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:37
Everest. He wanted to climb Mount Everest, and he was in the
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:40
middle of a corporate career, and he was doing really, really
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:43
well, and he was moving up. And he decided in his early 20s to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:47
take a year off, which everyone told him he shouldn't do, to
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:50
train and then to go climb Mount Everest. And so he did that. He
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:55
trained. He went to climb Mount Everest. They made it past base
Jordan Grumet:
00:19:58
camp. The weather change. First. He eventually had to come back
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:01
down. They never made it to the top. He ran out of time. He went
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:04
back to working. I met him in his 40s when he was dying of
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:07
leukemia, and all he wanted to talk about was his time on Mount
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:11
Everest. All he wanted to talk about was what it felt like to
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:14
be out there trying to climb this fantastic mountain. He
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:19
didn't complain that he failed, right? He ultimately didn't make
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:23
it. But what he really regaled us with was this idea that he
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:27
had the courage to do this thing that was deeply important to him
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:31
and that really had an impact on me. Doesn't matter if you
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:35
succeed or fail, but one day, you're going to die and you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:38
going to look back and say, did I do those things that were
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:40
deeply important to me, or did I put them off? So he failed the
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:43
big, audacious goal of getting to the top, but he loved the
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:46
process, and that's all that mattered, right, right? And so
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:50
he could have, back in his 20s, he could have said, You know
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:52
what, everyone's right, I should stick to my career. I'm gonna
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:54
keep moving up. I'll get to it later. Well, the poor guy died
Jordan Grumet:
00:20:58
in his 40s. There never may have been a later.
Gary Michels:
00:21:01
What is a hospice life review and how can it help
Gary Michels:
00:21:05
anyone at any age live a more purposeful life?
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:10
So, a hospice life review is something we do
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:12
with patients after they come on hospice, and we get them
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:14
comfortable, and we make sure they're dying the place they
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:16
want to, whether that's a nursing home or the hospital at
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:18
home. A lot of times a doctor or social worker or nurse or a
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:23
chaplain will do something called a life review. It's a
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:26
series of structured questions where we ask them about their
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:29
lives, what were the most important moments, what were
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:31
their biggest successes, what were their biggest failures? And
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:33
the one I specifically want to focus on is, what are their
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:37
regrets? And so this is an attempt to help reconcile their
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:41
life, even though they don't have the agency to change things
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:44
anymore, right? They're not going to go back and climb Mount
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:46
Everest if they didn't do it, they didn't do it. But here's
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:50
where the magic comes in. What if we take that knowledge and
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:53
bring it to young people and other people who aren't dying?
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:56
What if we ask them that big question, if you found out you
Jordan Grumet:
00:21:59
were going to die next week, what would you regret that you
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:02
never had the energy, courage or time to do? And once you figure
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:06
out what those regrets are, let's turn those into what I
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:09
call purpose anchors. Those are inklings of something that could
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:11
be purposeful. And then let's build a life of purpose around
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:14
them. Let me give you a great example. I came to the
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:17
conclusion about 10 years ago that if I didn't traditionally
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:19
publish a book and I died, I would always regret that I never
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:22
tried. And so for me, that was something I could turn from a
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:26
regret into a purpose anchor. And so I started building a life
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:29
of purpose around that, and eventually wrote my first book,
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:31
taking stock. And so I think this idea of using regrets to
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:36
our benefit is something that we all should be doing. Take a
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:39
lesson from the dying. Let's start thinking about it a lot
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:42
earlier, though.
Gary Michels:
00:22:43
Yeah, I love that. What are a few tactical tips for
Gary Michels:
00:22:47
setting up a lasting, positive legacy?
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:51
The tips are to start thinking about purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:53
now. Little P purpose, what you like the process of doing, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:22:56
start building a life around it. And so what I always get all the
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:00
time, as people say to me, Well, that's easy, you know, just find
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:03
your purpose. And they say, but I don't know how to find my
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:05
purpose. I've been trying forever. And so what I always
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:07
say is, you don't find your purpose. You build it. But it is
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:09
true, you need these Inklings, these beckonings, these purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:12
anchors, to start building a life of purpose around. So it is
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:16
true, there's some ways to start thinking about purpose anchors.
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:19
We just talked about one, which is the life review and the
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:21
regret question, that's a great way to start think about what
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:24
you'd regret if you were dying. And let's turn that into a
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:26
purpose anchor, another easy way. I won't go through all of
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:29
them, but another easy way to start thinking about purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:31
anchors. Think about your joys of childhood like, what did you
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:34
love when you were a kid? A lot of times, as we get older, we
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:36
start focusing on school and we drop all those things that feel
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:39
purposeful to us. So what were the posters? What were the
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:42
drawings? What were the metals you had in your childhood room?
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:45
Could those be some purpose anchors last but not least, and
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:47
I described this with my career. If you subtracted everything you
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:50
didn't like about your career, what would be left when I
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:52
subtracted everything I didn't like about being a doctor, I
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:54
found a purpose anchor, which was hospice work. And so those
Jordan Grumet:
00:23:57
are some real constructive ways to start building purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:00
anchors so that you can then start creating the life you want
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:02
to live full of purpose.
Gary Michels:
00:24:04
Couple of last questions for you; what legacy
Gary Michels:
00:24:06
do you hope to leave behind for your work and the patients that
Gary Michels:
00:24:10
you serve?
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:11
I'll tell you that that's an interesting
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:13
question, because I don't really plan to leave a legacy in the
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:15
people I serve. In fact, I don't even want them to know my name.
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:19
I want to be behind the scenes, helping the nurses and chaplains
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:21
and so social workers take care of them. So my job as a hospice
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:25
doctor is actually really easy. It's the nurses, the chaplains,
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:28
the social workers and the certified nursing assistants who
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:30
are doing all the difficult, hands on care. So the legacy
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:34
through hospice is to pretty much say, Look, everyone asks
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:38
me, how do I have a good death? I mean, I get that all the time,
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:41
especially young people, like you're a hospice doctor, you
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:43
know, how do I assure that I have a good death? And I always
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:46
tell people, you tend to die the way you live. And so if you
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:49
lived a good, happy life, you're gonna have a good, happy death.
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:51
And if you lived an anxiety filled unhappy life, you're
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:54
probably gonna have an unhappy death. So the way to have a good
Jordan Grumet:
00:24:57
death is to have a good life. And so the way to have. A good
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:00
life is to start thinking about these really important things
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:02
now, and that gets back to purpose. The legacy for the kids
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:06
is much easier, right? So for my kids, my legacy is to model a
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:11
deeply engaged adult who's pursuing really purposeful
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:15
activities, because I want them to have that model so they can
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:18
go and pursue their own purposeful, light filled life.
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:22
And so that's really the legacy I want for them. Is I want them
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:25
to see me so deeply engaged in my life that they build a life
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:29
exactly the same for themselves, so they feel all that kind of
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:32
same joy and fulfillment that I've spent, you know, a good 50
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:36
years trying to get to.
Gary Michels:
00:25:37
Awesome. I love it. So if someone wanted to get
Gary Michels:
00:25:40
in touch with you, get your book, have you help them in any
Gary Michels:
00:25:43
part of their lives, how would they reach you?
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:45
So the best way is to go to JordanGrumet.com
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:48
that's J O R, D, A N, G, R, U, m, e, t.com, there you can see
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:52
links to both of my books Taking Stock and The Purpose Code, as
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:55
well as all the places I create content. The two main ones right
Jordan Grumet:
00:25:58
now are the earned and invest podcast as well as the purpose
Jordan Grumet:
00:26:01
code, sub stack. You can get all of that at JordanGrumet.com.
Gary Michels:
00:26:05
Awesome. Well, I thank you for spending time with
Gary Michels:
00:26:08
us today. It was a great discussion, and it got me
Gary Michels:
00:26:11
thinking. Thank you so much.
Jordan Grumet:
00:26:13
Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.
