Stop Being The Nice Guy | Larry Hagner

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So what are the um what are some of the major things that men bring to you and the work that they do on their marriage?
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Like what are the most common complaints issues that you're working with men on a daily basis?
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That's a great question.
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Uh usually when men come to my table, it's uh it you know, obviously my the the platform is the dad edge, but uh most guys come to my table because they want one-on-one coaching for for marriage, or or they they not necessarily one-on-one coaching, but it's usually always has to do with marriage.
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And usually when I ask men, what do they want more of?
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It's they want you know better communication, you know, with their wives, they want uh they want a deeper connection, they want to be able to lead better.
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Uh I would say it's uh I I deal with a lot of uh nice guys, you know, who uh what do you mean by that?
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Yeah, so Robert Glover wrote a book uh not too terribly long ago.
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Well, actually, it's been a while now since he's wrote that book.
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Think about it.
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Uh yeah, it's like I still think it's like you know, past couple of years, but I think that book has been in existence for like 12, 13 years, something like that.
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But he wrote a book called No More Mr.
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Nice Guy, and I'll never forget when someone recommended that book to me when I was like just starting podcasts back in 2015.
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I was like, No more Mr.
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Nice Guy.
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That sounds like what is that all about?
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And I read the book, and I always tell this to all my clients or even friends or relatives.
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I was like, it's the best book you ever read.
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It will it'll give you so much enlightenment and it'll piss you off at the same time because you'll see yourself in it so much.
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But yeah, he talks about the what he calls the three covert contracts in that book, and uh, and basically the covert contract is a nice guy is and there's nothing wrong with a nice guy as we kind of think about it, but but a nice guy has these three tendencies, and I'm gonna try to remember them, but I know one of them is if I meet your expectations, you will meet mine.
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And the idea behind that is if I if I meet your expectations and and try to fulfill all your needs, then you will do that for me automatically without without even me communicating it.
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And usually that doesn't happen, that creates a lot of resentment in a guy.
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So that's the guy who like does all the dishes, you know, he cleans the house and then he just wants some intimacy, it doesn't happen, then he gets upset about it.
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Um if I live the the second covert contract, I believe, is if I if I live a pro I want to live a problem-free life, you know.
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If I'm a good person, I'll live a problem-free life, you know, and that's that is completely unattainable.
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Like you even if you operate with you know the the best of intentions or or the things are gonna happen, there's gonna be struggles, but a nice guy gets really upset and resentful when things don't necessarily go his way, especially if he's trying to operate at what he deems is a is a high level.
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And then the last one, I believe, is um oh, if I'm a nice guy, everyone will like me.
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So a nice guy also wants to be liked by everybody.
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And when that doesn't happen, because no one that is not even possible.
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You can try to be the whatever, and that's not gonna happen.
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But there's a lot of resentment when that happens too.
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But the nice guy, if you've ever I'll I'll close with this.
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If you've ever seen the movie Crazy Stupid Love with uh Steve Carell and Ryan Gosling, it's it's it's a great movie.
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It was made back in 2011.
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Um Steve Carell, any any movie with him is funny, and uh Ryan Gosling's a great actor.
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I love him too.
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But like Steve Carell is the ultimate nice guy, and he's married, and then in the very beginning of the movie, he finds out his wife had an affair.
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And but he's just like you know, he he's he does the exact same things that I just shared in the covert contracts, and and then his life just kind of goes to ruin.
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Then he meets Ryan Gosling, who he's kind of portrayed as a as a womanizer in the movie.
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But what he is is he's he's the perfect example of, I think, minus the womanizing part.
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Um, a perfect example of a man who is not the nice guy, but is not like the toxic masculinity like Andrew Tate.
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Like he's right there in the middle.
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If you really pull back the onion layers in that movie and watch watch how Ryan Gosling operates, he operates, you know, in ways where he's playful, you know, he doesn't take life too seriously when he interacts with people.
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Like he uh he's not attached to outcomes.
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So like he'll strike up a conversation with a woman, and if she if she bites, great.
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And if she doesn't, it's he just rolls it off his shoulder, no big deal.
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But like many guys can't operate like that, you know, and and plus like the way he interacts with people, the way he dresses, that kind of thing, it's it's all for a purpose.
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And uh we kind of lose that over time as men.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Um, being a nice guy is like um like just trying to people please, make sure everybody likes you.
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Good luck with that, my friend.
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Not gonna work well, right?
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So a lot of a lot of guys come to you in the marriage, dealing with some of the nice guy stuff.
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Um, what what kind of complications does being a nice guy create in marriage specifically?
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So the the dynamic that I've seen the most, and by the way, I'm a recovering nice guy, so I can like I can like I speak from this, not from the perspective of my clients, but also like I walked this for like a probably a good decade and a half, and even before my wife and I got married, relationships before her, oh my gosh, it was brutal.
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So um your wife pre-nice guy transition?
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No, after for sure.
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So you guys got married and then you were still a nice guy, and then yeah, okay.
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Yeah, so I'll even put it like I'll I'll just use myself as an example.
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So, like the way the way I operated in our marriage was um exactly that first one.
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If I if I meet all of her expectations, she will meet mine, even without me communicating them.
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So I was the guy who like did the dishes loud so she could hear it.
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I would like take out the trash, and like as you take out the trash, like, oh, I ran into the wall as I take out this trash.
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It's just like, oh, I I just want to get rid of the coming in, like, oh so much grass I just cut.
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Right, exactly.
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Like it was that stuff, and then like when it what when I go to her, you know, for like let's just say intimacy, because that's the easiest thing to, you know, like for sex or whatever, and she'd be like, I'm not in the mood, I'd be like, I did it, I just did all this crap, you know, and then like and then I get resentful, then I'd pout, which by the way, the only time to ever pout when you get rejected for sex is never because it's repulsive to a woman, and uh, and I just pout about it and I get mad, and then I disconnect, and then I get this thing in my head of like, well, if you're not gonna initiate, or if I I'm I'm done initiating, you're just gonna do it.
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And then, like, that was like the worst dynamic because if I'm disconnected from her and I pout, she's not gonna want a man like that, you know.
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And I had to learn that one, yeah.
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Oh, let's stop it there for the sex for a minute.
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Like, um, that's gotta be really common, and that's gotta be one of the most common conversations that you're having with men in their marriages.
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It is, yeah.
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Um, the whole and you know, the sex is easy to find pouting, by the way, specifically, like stonewalling.
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I'm upset.
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Like, I'm don't talk to me cold shoulder because we didn't have sex.
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Is that what you say?
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Yeah, man.
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Oh, yeah.
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So, like uh actually, what I'll do is I'll share an example and I'll also share an example of when this finally clicked for me when I really, really understood it.
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This was probably seven years ago.
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It was one of those things where we hadn't had sex for for like a week or two, I don't remember.
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And I was like, God bless.
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I was like, I really want to initiate, but I don't want to be rejected.
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And we were still pretty frequent with it, but like um, it had been I call it a week, I don't know.
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So I go to make a move, you know, and we're laying in bed, and she's like, Hey, she's like, you know, I I'm sorry, just you know, tonight I'm just I'm I'm I'm exhausted and like I'm just I'm just not in the mood tonight.
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And I was like, I was like, all right, fine.
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And she's like, Are you mad?
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I'm like, no, yes, you know, yeah, yes, yeah.
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And I was like, it's fine, it's fine.
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And she's like, No, seriously, are you upset?
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And I'm like, no, it's fine.
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She's like, No, you're not.
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And I was like, and then she looked at me, she grabbed me by the hands and she said, Can I tell you something?
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And I was like, Yeah.
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She goes, When I tell you that I'm not in the mood, I hope you understand.
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I'm just saying no to the situation.
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I am not saying no to you.
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I love having sex with you, I'm attracted to you.
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Like, I love doing it.
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I really, really do.
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It's just there are times during the day or night, especially she's like, especially night, like it's really sometimes hard for me because I am just completely exhausted.
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She's like, But it's never you, it's never, ever, ever you.
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And I don't know what it was about hearing that, but it was just like, so it's a situation, it's not actually me.
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Cause I would take it so personal.
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Yeah.
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And ever since then, if I initiate, like, and she's like, I'm not in the mood, and I'll be like, Okay, yeah, cool.
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And she, and I literally mean that too, because I know we're probably gonna do it the next day or the day after that.
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And she's like, Are you mad?
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And I'm like, No, no, I was like, I know you want me, I know you're attracted to me.
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Like, I'm not, no, I know we're good.
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Like, I would be more concerned if we went months without it, but we don't.
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But um, and that relieves like so much pressure on her, and it actually makes her more attracted to me.
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And then that's the same thing with uh with other men and their wives.
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Like, if they can be more calm about that, not take it personally, and just it's no to the situation, not the man.
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I think a lot of more men would probably not take it so personal, which it took me a freaking long time to get that man.
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It seems like that's the like the big the the like the catalyst for a really difficult dynamic when a guy says I don't want to initiate because I don't want to get rejected.
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Oh yeah, and it seems like the the like the key there is to not take it personal, to just because I mean too, like I think less frequently for guys, but I know for myself, like there's times I'm not in the mood for sex, like I'm just just not right now, like it's just not a good time.
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Yeah, and that makes so much sense to me if I'm if I tell my partner like I'm just not like honestly, I'm just not really feeling it right now.
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You know, my body's just not really feeling into that.
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That makes sense to me, but whenever it's her on the other hand saying it, it immediately goes like, Oh, I'm not the man I think I am, oh she thinks I'm ain't shit.
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Oh, she like the rejection piece.
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Yeah, it's a real thing, man.
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And you know, the one thing I want to share too is um sex is a result of everything else that happens outside the bedroom.
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So um, you know, a man's three basic needs in a relationship is to feel respected, appreciated, and validated.
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And when we are validated, like when we so when we have sex, we feel extremely validated, right?
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So it's like I'm good enough, I'm desired, I'm wanted.
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Like, you know, the physical aspect of of sex for a man, like it's like I've talked to other men about this, and it's like the physical release, the orgasm for a man is like five percent of it, right?
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But the 95% is is being wanted, being desired, being accepted, like that kind of thing.
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It's like the ultimate thing.
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And then for a woman, her three needs are to feel seen, heard, and safe.
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So if if each one of you are fulfilling those three needs for each other, that's when the relationship actually feels really, really good.
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Where'd you pick those up, man?
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Uh yeah, it was from a it was from a podcast guest.
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I don't even remember.
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I put it, I put it over and over and over in the book, Pursuit Legendary Fatherhood in the marriage section.
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But I can't remember who exactly said it, but when I heard that, I was like, oh man, that makes total sense.
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Three needs of a man respected, appreciated, validated, and for her seen, heard, and safe.
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Yep, yeah.
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I like that I like that conversation too, man, about sex happens everywhere else first.
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Yep.
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You know, and that's like how do you though how do you approach this without beginning to feel transactional?
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I'll do this so that you give me sex.
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So, like kind of back to even the trash can analogy, kind of thing we're talking about earlier, where it's not about like I'm gonna do all this stuff so that later when I ask for sex, it's a yes, but I'm gonna I'm gonna focus on doing the things that uh sexual currency was what I had heard someone describe it as like all the actions you do with your partner that you don't do with someone else because they're sexual in nature, a pat on the butt, you know, like a kiss on the neck, kind of like just the sexual things without any kind of tie to them as a means of trying to uh add coins in the jar, so to speak, of sexual charge.
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So then later on it's easier to flow.
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Does that resonate?
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100%.
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In fact, man, that's a great question.
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I've never been asked a question quite like that.
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But that that brings up a real thing where you know you you go back that if you're keeping score, right?
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If it's like the penny, the pennies in the in the in the jar, right?
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I'm keeping score, I'm gonna do these things to get.
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One thing I've noticed about just women in general, even kids, is they can detect an agenda from a mile away.
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Like they're bloodhounds for that.
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They they really do, they can pick up from a mile away.
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Like, are you genuinely interested in having a conversation with me or are you just trying to get something?
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And I think if you approach so so here's here's two different ways that human beings approach um basically actually anything, but let's just call a relationship with your wife.
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So people will go to a conversation with expectation and agenda.
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So, like for instance, I'll go and want to talk to my wife about something, right?
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And and this could be like managerial, like with the with with kids and chores and roles and management, that kind of thing, that's that's going to be expected.
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Like, hey, I I have something I want to talk to you about, but then also being tied to the to the outcome, the expectation, instead of being curious.
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So if we go to a conversation with expectation agenda, we're actually not allowing that connection to even really happen because we're so tied to what we want to talk about or the subject that we need to talk about, and then I want it to turn out like this.
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Versus the opposite of that is going to a conversation with curiosity and appreciation.
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So I'll give you an example.
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Like when my wife and I go, we we go out on a date day every Friday.
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It's a non-negotiable.
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We we we do like a lunch, a brunch, we we go hiking, we work out, we do several different things a day Friday afternoons.
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Gotcha.
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Yeah, Friday afternoons is our daytime.
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And I will purposely come to that conversation and many others throughout the week, but that one in particular where I have no expectation and I have no agenda.
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I'm just genuinely curious and I'm appreciative of our time.
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And that type of approach, it's almost like being out on a first date, you know, because like you're just so curious and appreciative that you're with that person that you just want to talk to them and have a deep connection with them.
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And that's the same approach that I take with my wife, is that because she can sniff it a mile away if I have an agenda, but if I'm genuinely curious, it also makes me a 10x better listener.
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I mean, because we really know when people are like deeply listening to us or if they're just going through the motions.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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The um do you think that you end up having more um more of what you want, like more intimacy, uh, more opportunities for connection whenever you kind of just let go of the desired outcome of intimacy and just decide I'm gonna be present, I'm gonna be loving, I'm gonna add to the sexual currency, and whatever ends up happening happens.
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I find that when I interact with her like that, like I'll just say for what it is, she'll she wants to like rip my clothes off.
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And I but I don't do it for that reason.
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Like if we have sex, great, if we don't, I know we're gonna do it in the next couple days or whatever.
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But but what I notice is it's almost like when you're sitting there, like we go to this same restaurant almost every Friday.
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We just love it there.
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And it's almost like nobody else is in the room.
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Like that's how deep the conversation is.
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Like, and you know, your body language has to say a certain thing, your voice tone has to say a certain thing, even your eyes, the way you look at her, has to say a certain thing.
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And what I notice when you do those things, right, your your body communicates a ton.
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You know, 93% of what we what we communicate is through body language and through tonality.
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But if my body language is like more open and I'm facing her, or I'm sitting side by side with her and I'm just kind of slightly looking at her, if I'm just gazing into her eyes and like listening to every single word that she's saying, almost like we're on a first date, that completely changes the energy in the conversation.
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Yeah, pulls pulls them to you, man.
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What's that?
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It pulls it pulls her to you, you know, like it's magnetic magnetic.
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How uh do you read any Wineland stuff or data stuff?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, I I actually referred to data in my book a little bit.
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How much of the men's work do you do moves into some of the more um tantric sexuality is the best way I'd probably describe a lot of what they talk about.
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Any of it involving more of the like more tantric sexual practices?
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Not for us.
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.519
Um we're we're just to be honest, we're not really wired like that.
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:02.480
I I don't even know if we'd really enjoy it.
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:03.919
And and nothing against that.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:10.480
We've never really explored it, but like um that's not really an area where we where we like have ever really explored.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.720
So I I can't really talk too much about that.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:18.799
But um but but I would say it's like what we have is ideal for both of us.
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:19.839
Yeah, 100%.
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:26.240
One of the first things you mentioned about why when guys come to you, they're looking for a few different things is communication.
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:34.799
Um what specifically, and of course I've got a couple questions I like to ask you about that, but what specifically when you talk about men having difficulties in communications with their partner?
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:41.680
Yeah, so I think like I said before we uh started recording today, like I like to keep things super simple for men.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:49.839
So when it comes to communication, I like you know, the quality of our life and the quality of our relationships resides in the quality of our questions.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:54.319
So normally when we see our wives or we see our kids or anybody else, it's like, how was your day?
00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:01.200
You know, it's a default question that usually results in a really default answer that doesn't create any connection whatsoever.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:07.440
So if we want better outcomes and we want better communication, we have to actually start with better questions.
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:25.039
So, like um, I was trained in a coaching um coaching organization called Exchange, which is based on uh a premise called appreciative inquiry, which is it's basically being able to have great conversations and also facilitate as a coach through really meaningful solution-based questions that are deep.
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:32.160
So it's really like the best of the past, the best of the current, and what and the best of what we could co-create together.
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.880
So, um, a question I would ask my wife might be something like instead of how is your day?
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.359
I mean, this is super simple, is say, what was the best part of your day today?
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:43.920
And tell me why it was so meaningful to you.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:44.480
Right.
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:49.599
And when I ask that question, I'm not gonna get fine, good, crazy, boring.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.440
I'm gonna get some sort of story that elevates our connection, our energy together.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.599
Because when people are telling you something that they're proud of, something that like she could be like, I talked to my mom today, I haven't talked to her in a week.
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:04.000
It was so good catching up with her, like you know, and then being able to expand and be like, that's awesome.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.200
What'd you guys talk about?
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:11.680
You know, so it's like one question could easily steamroll into a 15-minute conversation that just brings you to life.
00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.279
So that that's an easy one.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:20.400
Yeah, another one you could ask your wife too is you know, think of a time when you and I were like incredibly connected, like you actually thought that we were unbreakable.
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.160
What was I doing in that season?
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:23.839
What were you doing in that season?
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.960
And why did you and why did you pick that season in particular?
00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:32.000
Like, and as soon as you see your wife go, Oh my gosh, that's a really good question.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:33.440
And then she's thinking about it.
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.839
And as she's thinking about it, she's actually reliving it with you.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:44.160
And then she tells you about it, which what you want in communication is not an exchange of words.
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.079
You actually want connection.
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:52.960
How do you really encourage guys to create that connection more with their partner if they want to lead that?
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.799
Quality questions is a great start.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:05.839
Yeah, I think it's um, first of all, there's a lot of managerial things that happen, you know, when you're married, you got the kids, you got the activities, you got school, sports, bills, all that stuff, right?
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:15.279
But it's really just um creating better conversations that could be anywhere from three minutes long to to three hours long, right?
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:25.440
So like last night, my wife and I, it was a really odd night because like we've got four boys, so there are people in and out of our house constantly, and our house is never our own.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.200
But last night it was kind of odd.
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.119
It was just the just the two of us.
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:42.720
Um, all the boys were out just hanging out with friends, and it was just the two of us, and we were just sitting on the couch and we had a show on, but we were holding hands, and I just started asking our questions about the previous week and and the next week ahead.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:49.359
Like, I was like, what was something that happened to you last week that I don't know about that was really, really cool for you.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:51.519
Your wife loves this about you, by the way, Larry.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:52.400
Just saying, man.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.680
When I've here's here's the warning though.
00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:57.119
Here's the warning.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.759
If you haven't if you haven't done this with the I always tell them, I always tell my clients this, man.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:12.000
I was like, if you haven't done this for years, and you you you break out a question like that, she's gonna look at you like you have two heads and like what what are you doing, right?
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:13.839
My are you cheating on me?
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:23.519
Dude, my my wife, man, still still to this day, every now and again she'll throw it in there, but like she'll be like, Are you dad edging me right now?
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:26.400
Oh, that's hilarious! Yeah, are you edging me right now, brother?
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:27.599
Are you edging me right now?
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:35.680
I spoke to a group of high school students like a month ago, and and told them the name of my platform.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.319
And I was like, Yeah, you can all laugh about it.
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:39.839
Like, I didn't know what it meant back then.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.240
I didn't it wasn't meant what it was meant when I was growing up.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:49.200
But anyway, but like I always tell guys, I warn them, I was like, your wife is going to react to this because she's like, What are you what are you doing?
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.880
Like, why are you asking me that?
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.440
And here's what you say back you you actually just are as transparent as all get out.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.680
Just be honest, just say, you know, like, listen, over the past couple of years, you know.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:10.640
I I think we can maybe both agree that I haven't really been intentional with with uh conversations with you and I've gotten a little lazy and I'm learning new ways to communicate with you.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.519
And so if you're sensing a difference, that's the difference.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:14.799
So here's the question again.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:15.680
Just own it.
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:16.960
What was the cool?
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:17.920
Yeah, just own it.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:26.559
And then as soon as you own it and you're not trying to be sly about it, she's like, oh, okay, that provides again that safety and that certainty for her of like, okay, now I know what's going on.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:27.599
Yeah.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:29.440
Um communication.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:38.240
Another another question I have for you, man, is um attachment styles from from in the world of attachment styles, anxious, secure, avoidant, that kind of stuff.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:40.960
Read about it, heard about it, manager, what at all?
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:41.519
Okay.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.839
Um, so like, you know, secure attachment.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:50.880
Ideally, we feel our needs, we speak up for our needs, and we we ask for our needs to be met and then give grace to the person if they are available for them, vice versa.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:56.079
How can a man go about communicating his needs to his partner when they're not being met?
00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.319
Obviously, we don't want to like what's the worst case scenario if your needs are not being met?
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:01.279
What's the worst way to do it?
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:05.119
And then how would you encourage men to go about communicating that?
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.880
So I think avoidant is is a really bad tactic.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:14.559
I think it's it's it's a really it's a really good way to to create just a brick wall between you and your wife.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:20.160
So if you're avoidant, the way that she takes it, number one, avoiding is not leadership, right?
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:28.880
I I love the secure attachment because I actually I just taught this skill in in our in our group called you know the difference between expectations and boundaries, right?
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:34.799
So, and I'll give you an example of a client that I had that I I shared, you know, a way to have a conversation with him about this.
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:42.960
But I think the best way that you can you can express your needs is number one, you've got to be calm, right?
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:48.000
You you you can't you can't go to your wife and be like, why aren't you doing X, Y, and Z?
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:49.759
Like, I don't like this and I don't like that.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:58.880
If you really think about it, when we get into conflict, we're actually fighting for things that we don't want anymore, but we actually never tell the person what it is that we do want, which is really, really frustrating for them.
00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:07.119
So uh an avoidant will going back to avoidant will be like, well, I'm just gonna be quiet about it because number one, I don't want to be rejected.
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:12.079
Number two, I don't want to deal with you know whatever's gonna happen, the result of this conversation.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:13.519
So I'm just gonna avoid it.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.799
And what happens when we get avoid, when we avoid is we get resentful.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:18.960
And when we get resentful, we get disconnected.
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:30.880
And the way that she takes that is you're not here, you're you're just existing, you're not aware, you're not leading, and it's insanely unattractive to a woman, a man who can be secure.
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:36.319
So, like I'll I'll give you um an example of a client that I had literally just the other day.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:41.519
He he felt that he's he's the he he works and so do his wife.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:49.359
They have three kids, and he feels he's like, I am doing most of the household chores and it's driving me freaking crazy, man.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.559
He's like, and I I want to have a conversation with her.
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:56.160
And he he also found out that she had an emotional affair, which didn't help things.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.799
And he's like, if I have this conversation with her, it might push her even further.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.279
Like, and I was like, So what do you want to, what are you gonna do about it?
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:04.559
He's like, I'm just not gonna say anything.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:16.880
I was like, can I give you a way to say this to her that will be calm, that will also show ownership, and then it will also create a boundary because the expect the difference, many people don't know this.
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:25.200
The difference between an expectation and a boundary is you clear you have zero control over if someone meets your expectations or not.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.279
Like it's it's a clearly defined thing.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.519
Hey, I need this or want this, right?
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:31.039
But and then you release it.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:38.480
So you release it, meaning like that person has full autonomy to basically meet the expectation or not.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:45.680
The boundary is something that is totally in our control, and most people get these completely backwards, or they actually think a boundary is an expectation.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:47.359
You're crossing my boundaries, right?
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:48.400
We say that one.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:59.759
A boundary is something you will do that you enforce, and enforce sounds like punishment, but it's not punishment, but it's something that you will do that you have complete control over that you own.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:04.880
So, like he was really confused when I told him this, and it took like 30 minutes to unpack it.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:08.079
But basically, he walked away with a script like this.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:16.720
He said, you know, hey, I'd like to have a conversation around some of our roles and who owns what chore in the house.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:25.279
Because I think if we identify you, you do these things, I do these things, it will create clarity for both of us, and we're not gonna wonder who's gonna do what.
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.839
And I think it'll actually lower our stress a bit.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:36.319
And here's here's the boundary that I have is is after these roles are clearly defined, and if if expectations aren't met, I'm not gonna be quietly resentful.
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:42.079
I'm actually gonna come to you with a really calm conversation around how we can actually make this even better.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:42.880
Yeah.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:49.440
Tell me a little bit more so I can get a good grasp on um the boundary thing, the difference between an expectation versus a boundary.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:50.079
Yeah.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:27:02.160
So an expectation is um, so like for instance, an expectation is I clearly, I I clearly communicate to you what it is that I need or want of that expectation.
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:03.839
And then what I do is I release it.
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:08.000
That's one of the most important things because the other person has to choose whether or not they're gonna do it.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:16.079
One of the biggest mistakes that people make is that they do not communicate the expectation or they don't communicate it clearly.
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:18.079
So I'll I'll give you another example of this personally.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.519
I have a 10-year-old, and this is I told my client the same story.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:26.559
I was like, I need you to clean your room on once a week.
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:28.400
That's still not clear to him.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.799
And plus, his version of a clear room, clean room, and my version are completely different.
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.599
So I have to say, hey, by 10 a.m.
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:39.200
on Saturday morning, your room needs to be cleaned.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.720
That's the expectation of this house.
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:53.519
And what a clean room looks like is your toys aren't shoved underneath your bed, they're in the toy box, your clean clothes are in the drawers, your dirty clothes are off the closet floor and put into the hamper, and your shoes are in the cubbies.
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.400
That's a clean room, and that's done by 10 a.m.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.119
And I and so that's the clear expectation.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.599
Normally, the another mistake that people make is well, I should only have to say it once.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:11.839
The an adult human brain usually needs to hear an expectation at least three times before it sinks in, and a kid needs to hear it at least seven.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:19.200
So if what if if there's ever unclear, you want to have a conversation and be like, what did you understand about this expectation?
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.920
And I'll have my 10-year-old repeat it back to me.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.279
And then the boundary that I have with him, I said, Hey, I really want you to have your iPad.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:35.119
I know you have a good time on your iPad, and the deal is you get your iPad for an hour on Saturdays, but not until your room is clean.
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:41.359
So if the room is not clean, you I get to hold on to your iPad until that task is done.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.079
Yeah.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.359
Seems like the boundary is much more something that I do myself.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:48.559
This is for me, this is where I don't, this is where I stop.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:49.359
Exactly.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.200
The boundary is what you will do if the expectation is not met.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:54.079
Yeah.
00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:58.160
Um the communication part is really hard, man.
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:16.799
Like I think too, for a lot of guys, like when we have emotional needs, it feels um feels like you're being a wuss to to say I need more of something from you.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:22.240
And like I love the word invitation.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.000
I love to think about that word when it comes to communicating my needs.
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:50.720
Um if I'm when when I'm in a situation where my partner I would like to get a certain medium of love from them, by acts of service or words, or um, you know, like one thing that's really helped me a lot is just remembering all of the love I receive from that person and all the ways they give it to me.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:30:11.519
And then if there's a specific way that I'd like to receive love, maybe I want to hear some words that day, or maybe want something done for me that would make me feel really special or loved, to like try to wash myself in the appreciation I feel for that person and the way they make me feel in those ways before then settling in a place where it's kind of fun.
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:14.960
Like uh, I'd really love to play checkers with you.
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.039
I'd really love to explore this idea.
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:23.119
I'd love to go on a walk, like see if you can communicate what you'd love to feel from them.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:29.519
I'd love to hear what your three favorite things are about me, you know, because that would just make me have the greatest day in the world.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:44.000
That's such a different way to go about it, versus like you were talking about earlier, just like not getting your needs met, getting quiet, and then almost making like I like when people say, uh, don't act out your needs, communicate them, be an adult.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.799
Then you're waiting on her to be like, what's wrong?
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:51.039
Which is like not a good thing, you know.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:52.079
It's not.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:53.359
And yeah, keep going.
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:54.240
Sorry.
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.599
Please go for it.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:59.519
No, so um, so I think I'll give an example of this.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:05.680
So I think number one, your approach needs to come from a very calm and secure place.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.960
And you need to be okay with your own needs.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.359
A lot of guys are like, well, maybe that's not okay.
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:12.319
It is okay.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:20.480
What's not okay is if you don't communicate them and just expect them because that will create that's like a cancer that will start in a relationship that metastasizes and eats away at it.
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.200
You know, it's these unspoken expectations and needs.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.880
So um I'll share a perfect example of this.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.079
Um, I interviewed a woman by the name of Alana Pratt, who is an intimacy and sex coach, and she's amazing.
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:36.240
And she she talked, she she taught me about the approach for a woman.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:38.799
So again, seeing herd and safe, right?
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.759
The safety button for a woman is the most important.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.400
And when I say safety to a new client or new guy I'm talking to, they're like, well, he she knows I'm not gonna hurt her.
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:47.839
I was like, I'm not talking about physically.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.640
Yes, you need to be physically be able to protect her.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:52.400
You need to physically not hurt her.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.720
I was like, but there's all kinds of other elements for a woman when it comes to safety.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.160
So parental safety.
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:07.839
If you guys have kids, she needs to know that you're the calm dad, not the trigger happy dad, because nothing will agitate that safety button more than seeing you blow up at your kids uncontrollably.
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.400
And she's like, oh my gosh, like I don't even know what to do with myself right now.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.799
It causes a huge fight or flight in them.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.960
Then there's emotional safety, right?
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:22.960
Where, hey, can I come and talk to you about things, whether it's about you or it's about the kids or my friends or my mother or whatever else, and you're not gonna fix my problems.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:24.720
You're actually just gonna listen to me, right?
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:26.400
I need that kind of safety.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:30.799
There's mental safety, like you know, mental health and all these different things.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.799
Um, there is financial safety.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.039
A woman can't be married to a broke man.
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.839
The the good news about that is they've done studies with this.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:43.599
The the women who are like 20 years old and marry the 80-year-old for his gazillion dollars, those are really rare, right?
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:51.599
But like what most women will have have said and have said in polls and studies is I want my basic needs met and a little more.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:52.720
That's what makes me feel safe.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:53.759
So, what is a little more?
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:59.039
A little more is if you know my 12-year-old needs a new pair of football cleats, Jessica.
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:02.319
If she has to call me and say, Do we have enough money in the check and count?
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.079
These these cleats are 200 bucks, or can I just buy them the cleats?
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.799
Like, you know, that that's what they're really talking about.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.160
So, like the safety thing also comes with our approach.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:21.039
So, like the nice guy, like the one who's really insecure, even avoiding and be like, you know, hey, um, so I kind of want to talk to you about something.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:31.440
And um, I I don't want you to be mad, or I don't want this to sound weird, or yeah, and it's okay if you say no, it really is like that is repulsive to a woman, right?
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.440
Because we are so tied to the outcome and they feel that neediness, and neediness is repulsive to a woman.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:46.799
So Atlanta really taught me this approach of like, you can just simply in a very calm, loving way, say, hey, I want to do X, Y, and Z.
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:55.519
It's totally fine if you don't want to, but I would feel it'd be unfair for me not to at least tell you what those needs are, and then you can decide whether or not this is something you want to do.
00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:02.400
So, like an example that I tested this, and I go and I I went to Jessica and I told Alana this too.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:07.440
There was something I wanted to do with her in the bedroom for like five years, but I was too chicken shit to ask.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:11.760
And and we're we're not we're not like crazy weirdos or anything like that.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.880
It was just it was something really, really simple, but I'll I'll keep that part private.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.199
But it was just something I always kind of wanted to do.
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:22.800
And um so I went to her and after that podcast, I went to Jessica with the exact same thing.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:26.239
I said, Hey, I said, I want to share something with you.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:30.559
I was like, I've been holding this back for a long time, but it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:37.119
And I literally use this type of voice tone, you know, I just something I've been thinking about for a long time, and it's something I really want to try.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:43.119
And I would feel that it's a bit unfair for me not to tell you this, and then you can decide whether or not, you know, you're you're good with it.
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:47.679
And she looked, and I told her, and she's like, Yeah, great, sounds awesome.
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.400
When do you want to?
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:50.000
And I'm like, What?
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.440
And she's like, Yeah, she's like, How long have you been holding this back?
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:56.159
And I was like, like five years.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:58.880
And she's like, Oh my god, she's like, Why?
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.280
She's like, We could have been doing that for five years.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.280
I was like, Man, that's why I was like, Okay, okay.
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:04.480
I was like, time out.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:07.360
What just scratch whatever I just said?
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:08.559
What if I came to you like this?
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:15.280
And I was like, Yeah, um, so I was kind of thinking about something, and I know this might sound like weird.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.039
It's okay if you say no, it's no big deal.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:20.719
And she was like, No, and I was like, I didn't even get finished.
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:22.639
She's like, You didn't have to finish.
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:28.719
She goes, if you're not certain about it and you don't feel good about it, why would I feel good about it?
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:35.199
So, like, it was proof that like it really triggered unsafety with her, like, because I wasn't confident with it.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:40.719
Yeah, when you're asking for your needs, owning it is such a huge part of that.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:46.239
Owning is such a huge part, and you like you don't have to communicate to them, it's okay if you don't.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:48.320
You have to know that though, in your heart.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:54.559
You have to be like, uh, yeah, like my job and my role in this relationship is to show up authentically.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:01.039
And if that means, like for me, it would kind of pop up in like a uh like in the air of curiosity.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.079
Like, you ever thought about doing something like this in the bedroom?
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:05.199
How does that sound to you?
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:06.320
Like, oh cool, huh?
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.639
Like fun, not so fun.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:19.039
Almost like uh kind of that first date kind of energy, like um, you know, wanting to get to know someone instead of saying, like uh, you know, not apologizing for what you want.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.079
Such a crappy thing.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:22.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.440
You you you don't have to be a you you you should never be apologetic about it, you know.
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:32.000
What it because the again that goes with expectations, right?
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.760
I mean, like if you're not apologetic about it, and if you can actually be the person that releases it.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:48.559
So, like for instance, um, with that situation, I wouldn't have really thought about Jessica any other way, but I also had it in my mind that she's not rejecting the thing, she's not rejecting me.
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:52.400
She just if she didn't want to do it, she'd be rejecting that thing, not me.
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:53.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:53.599 --> 00:37:01.840
And too, I think a lot of times we are like you are looking for validation that the what you want or what you need is okay.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:02.320
Yes.
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:03.760
It's totally okay.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:07.519
If it who like if you have a desire, that's great.
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:17.760
And it doesn't have to be um, it doesn't have to be such a pressure thing that you bring to your partner because they don't have to they don't have to meet you in the way that you want to be met.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:21.519
You know, part of I think the beauty of relationship is is being known.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:26.880
And like, you know, I had a um a funny example of this.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.840
Maybe this could be helpful for for the listeners.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:37.280
Like I have a close friend in my life that is like one of my men in my corner, you know, and he's like one of my dudes.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:46.320
And at one point I told him, man, like it would really help me a lot since you're like one of my main sources of like masculine uh drive.
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.079
And um you're my men, like you're the dude in my corner.
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:55.280
I would love if you know you would tell me that you're proud of me, you know, more often.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:56.559
That would mean a lot to me.
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:05.360
Yeah, and uh and so like, yes, me, and I didn't ask you, like, hey, you know, maybe if you this isn't weird, I would just straight up and just ask him.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:15.920
And um his response when we saw each other was like was like, um, I'm I'm so I'm so proud of you, and I I hope you know that.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.800
Like, I think that a lot.
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.840
I think what you do is great.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.760
He gave me some you know, words and kind of thing.
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.400
And then he was like, But I'm gonna keep it real with you, bro.
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.920
Like I'm just not that much of an encouraging person.
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.360
I just don't really, I'm just not super encouraging.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:34.320
It's just not my kind of personality type, it never's been this and that, the other.
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:40.719
And uh legitimately, I was like, okay, makes sense to me.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.559
Like even then, now we kind of joke about it.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:56.960
Like, and he's still not like he hasn't picked up that quality trait or that that personality trait, it's not something we that he does now, but we I like Heidi, Heidi Preeb, her definition of intimacy as a shared reality.
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:10.000
So if even though the even though the behavioral adjustment wasn't made, the request was made, the behavioral adjustment wasn't made, it still brought us closer together because we have a more complete understanding of the dynamic in our relationship and what's important to each person.
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:19.440
Even now it seems that it's more so a joke that's made that says, Hey, I see you, and I remember you told me that more so than it is like a that person's changed kind of thing.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:20.719
Yeah, man.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:31.039
And you you know what you did there too is you you gave that man the gift of a roadmap of, you know, like it's it's I think it's always good to vet these things out.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:42.880
Like um what you did, I think, from a from like a positivity side and a benefit side was like, you know, you stated what it is that you wanted, and then he he gave him a clear road of like, okay, yeah, I'm my wife is the same way.
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.239
She's not a she didn't grow up with compliments, and I'm a words of affirmation guy.
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:52.639
So she doesn't give a whole lot of compliments, but I also don't take it personal because she's just not wired that way, which is fine.
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:59.119
But like another example of this is I think you can also share feedback sometimes that is tough to hear, right?
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.719
So I've I've got one of my business partners, we've we've known each other for 11 years.
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:09.440
We've been in, he's one of my coaches, one of my lead coaches in uh in the boardroom, which is our business owner mastermind.
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:15.440
And uh he's very we're very, very direct with each other, but we've we've also learned all these skills that we teach.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:17.519
So it's like we can take that kind of stuff.
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:23.039
So, like an example of this was uh we took our guys on a um on a retreat.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:30.000
We take them on a retreat once a year, and uh we went to Cactus to Clouds and Palm Springs, and which is like this crazy gnarly hike.
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.960
And then we um we did like masterminding.
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:40.320
And um, so I didn't actually get to go on the hike uh because I I busted my knee last year and I can't do a hike like that just yet.
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:51.440
And uh so I sent him an audio over text because he was with our guys, and we had uh we had we had a coach that was in the group for a long time leave and uh which was fine.
00:40:51.599 --> 00:41:01.920
He I asked him to go and I sent him an audio and I said, Hey, um, I'm sure on this you know several hour hike, you guys are gonna run out of things to probably talk about.
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:03.440
And here's here's my ask.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:11.039
And and I told him, I was like, I don't think you would do this, but if this did come up and I didn't say something to you, I would regret not saying something.
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:12.960
I was like, here's what I ask you to do.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:20.880
Um, please allow us to announce this, you know, to the entire group and don't have one-off conversations where it might, you know, turn into something else.
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.320
Because then you play telephone, right?
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:26.960
Because you, you know, this person said this, and by the time it gets to the 10th person, it's a completely different story.
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:29.679
And so I sent him this over audio purposely.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:33.119
I didn't write it over text because I wanted him to hear the tonality of my voice.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.480
I wanted him to hear how I said it and the way I said it.
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:42.079
And the next call that we were on next week, he's like, hey, he goes, I I need to address something with you.
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:43.039
And I was like, okay, what?
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.280
He's like, you know, he's like, you you sent me this audio.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:50.880
And he's like, I was pretty fucking annoyed that you would even think that I would do something like that.
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.599
And I just smiled and I was like, Yeah, I can I can understand that.
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:55.119
I was like, Can I explain that?
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:55.760
And he's like, Yeah.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:01.519
And I said, The way the reason I did that is because on an 18-hour hike, people are gonna run out of things to talk about.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:02.639
I really didn't think you would.
00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:03.840
I said that in the audio.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.599
At the same time, I would have regretted not at least sharing that insight with you.
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:10.639
And if it would have come up, it would have caused a riff, I think, in the group.
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:11.519
So that was it.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:13.599
And he's like, Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:14.400
Yeah, man.
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:26.559
This is like um there's such a such you know, a lot of giving space to the person to have their reaction and um and also honoring whatever you felt like you needed to communicate at that point.
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:30.239
You know, I'm not I'm not packaging this up perfectly and saying it's gonna land just right.
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:32.159
I'm just knowing that I need to communicate this.
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:33.280
This is important to me.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:38.400
And if I don't, then I'm gonna uh you know I'm risking something that I feel like is not uh not riskful, you know.
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:38.800
Right.
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.440
What I'm curious to pick your brain on this, man.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:48.159
Uh asking for your needs, emotional regulation, these are important things.
00:42:49.760 --> 00:43:06.000
Where do you see a line and where do you draw it when it comes to protecting the attraction romantically in your relationship with your woman, getting your needs met by co-regulating, yes, but also having external sources of regulation?
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:17.519
Like, isn't there a line of sorts where you don't want your partner to become your therapist, but you do want to make sure they're clued in so you experience a deeper level of connection.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:18.719
How do you see that situation?
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:21.679
How do you encourage people to walk that line?
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.119
That's such a good question.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:25.119
There, there are several elements in that question.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.440
So, um, you know, you you referred to David Data and um, you know, the way of the superior man, all that.
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:32.239
I'm a huge fan of G.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:32.480
S.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:33.280
Youngblood.
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.920
Um, I'm just I'm actually reading his book right now.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:36.559
Oh, yeah.
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:39.840
So the the masculine relationship or the art embodiment men.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:41.920
The masculine and the rel in relationship.
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:43.679
It's literally one of my favorite books.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:48.880
I actually, you know, I would call him, I guess, competitive coach, but I refer that book to all of my clients.
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:49.920
I'm like, read this.
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:50.800
Like, yeah.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:52.800
This literally it's kind of like No More Mr.
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:54.159
Nice Guy on steroids.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:55.519
You know, it's a it's a great book.
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:57.920
And G S and I, I'm honored to call him a friend.
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:05.679
I've known him for a couple of years and um But when it comes to like his three-part blueprint, which is, you know, first you have to be responsive and not reactive.
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:06.559
So you have to be calm.
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:07.440
You have to be regulated.
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:11.519
Because if you're not regulated, then you cannot co co-regulate, which is what you said.
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:16.880
We have tremendous influence over the other people around us, especially as men, husbands, and fathers.
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:18.320
We are the thermostat in the house.
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.360
If dad's energy is off, the whole family's going to feel it, you know.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:23.519
So we have to be regulated, right?
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:25.360
And there are several different ways to do that.
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:31.920
So, like for me, I think it's always good for a man to have anchors in his life that helps him to be regulated, whether that's a meditative practice.
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:34.559
Um, me, it's uh fitness and faith.
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:37.599
Every morning I start my my morning off with fitness and faith.
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:41.840
I'm I'm either in the gym or I'm going for a long walk, I'm doing something to get my body moving.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:43.920
And then I really dive into the word.
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:46.159
So like that helps me tremendously.
00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:48.880
And then, of course, there's the practical practices of it too.
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:56.159
Like you, when you're when you feel yourself triggered, you know, it's uh I'm a big proponent of box breathing and deep diaphragmic breathing.
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:59.039
Um, so that's that's number one is you've got to be regulated.
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:01.360
Number two is, you know, leading with structure.
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:08.880
Leading with structure is a lot like the example that um I shared with my client around expectations and boundaries, the way he laid that out for his wife.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.039
You know, it's just it's leading with tremendous structure.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:15.039
It's not even asking a big question like, hey, our chores aren't really equal.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:16.320
What do you think we should do about it?
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:17.760
That's not leading with structure.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:21.280
That's a huge question for her that takes up a lot of mental load.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.760
But if you can lead with structure and options, like in that example that I shared, that's leading with structure.
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:27.920
And then the last one is to provide safety.
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:31.360
You know, safety is like your voice tone, it's the way that you're operating.
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.920
It's not necessarily being attached to the outcomes.
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:40.719
But um, from an attraction standpoint, what I find is that a lot of men don't have those anchors in their life.
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:42.880
And instead, they we do the opposite.
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:53.440
So instead of having the positive, healthy anchors, we go to alcohol, porn, or weed to to numb whatever's we're feeling, and then we just disassociate and disconnect even more.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:58.159
So, like that's that's usually more salt in the wound when we're doing that kind of stuff.
00:45:58.480 --> 00:45:59.119
Yeah.
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:02.400
Um, you said something that's interesting to me, quoting J.
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:02.559
S.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.280
Youngblood, I guess, or paraphrasing, we have to be regulated before we can co-regulate.
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:07.840
Yeah.
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:11.920
From my understanding, co-regulation, and I could be wrong on this.
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:13.119
I don't know much about it.
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.599
I just kind of have it like a dusty file in the back of my brain.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:21.199
Co-regulation is the practice of get being dysregulated and regulating with another person's nervous system.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:23.599
Or is it what?
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.280
You know, that that's a great question.
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:27.280
The the way I understood it when I read his book.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:28.480
So he's been on my podcast.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.920
We also hosted a men's event uh back in April called the Men's Forge.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:33.119
He was one of the speakers there.
00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:35.679
And um, and then I I've been reading his book again.
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:37.760
I just, I just every time I read it, I oh yeah.
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.559
But um, but like so the the the regulation and co-regulation.
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:52.800
So, like, you know, take example of if if your kid does something wrong or you're pissed off of your kid or whatever, or or actually let's take a different scenario.
00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:55.679
Your kid is irate, right, about something.
00:46:55.920 --> 00:47:05.599
And usually, you know, whether it's a meltdown or it's your daughter freaking out over something, or your son is having like some sort of meltdown, losing his crap.
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:15.599
One of the one of the things that we do is we we jump into that emotional pool with them because it's actually really difficult for most men to take on big emotions.
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:16.960
It's it's hard for us, you know.
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:28.159
It's like we're kind of taught from a young age, at least, you know, my generation, probably yours too, is like don't feel your emotions, stuff it down, you know, white knuckle it, put your head down, be a man, grow a set of balls, right?
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:36.000
But that yeah, there's a time and a place for that, but it doesn't teach us emotional IQ, which is also associated with emotional regulation.
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:40.000
So if we can't regulate our own emotions, how in the world are we going to co-regulate somebody else?
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:47.679
So, like, one of the best things you can do, like, let's just say your daughter is erratic, you know, she's flipping out at like one of her girlfriends did this, this, or this.
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:54.880
If you get erratic with her, you're not co-regulating her, you're basically throwing kerosene on the campfire of that situation.
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:58.800
But if you can be that man that is like, man, that sounds really frustrating.
00:47:59.199 --> 00:47:59.840
Tell me more about that.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:00.480
What's going on?
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:06.639
And she's blah, and then just that nice calm voice tone where you're regulated, you're you're helping her get regulated.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:09.039
That's the way I understood it from his book.
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:10.800
What if you're on the opposite end?
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:27.599
What if you're feeling this activation, you're feeling these needs, and now you where what's kind of your framework for like, do I take this neediness that I have to the partnership and get co-regulated, or I need to deal with this with this alone before returning to the partnership?
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:29.119
That's a great question.
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:37.599
Um, so uh you know, I I think having a deep connection with your wife is really, really important, but I never think your wife should be your therapist.
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.880
And I this is where I think men need community so bad.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.639
I mean, 70% of men out there report feeling uh lonely.
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.599
And I think it's like 82% of men don't even have a 3 a.m.
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:47.920
friend.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.639
You know, if if shit hit the fan, they don't know who they call.
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:57.519
So I think, you know, I always I always tell guys this, you know, let your wife in on 60 to 70 percent.
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:08.480
But before you take anything to her, run that past a group of your trusted advisors, whether you're in a mastermind, whether you have a therapist, whether you have a coach, whether you have a good friend.
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:12.880
Like, and I'm not talking about your drinking buddy friend where everything is fine, good, crazy, and boring.
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:16.400
Like those are the conversations, like a good friend who can call you forward.
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:20.400
But it's like you can take a situation that feels really heavy to you.
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:29.599
And it feels like a lot of times our situations can feel like you know, 13 ping-pong balls of things in your head, and you just can't even you can't even clarify what's going on.
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:42.480
So I always like to have like for me, I always need a good friend to go and have these conversations with first before I go and talk to Jessica, because then when I go to talk to her, I'm more calm, I'm more clear.
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:45.519
Because if I go to her erratic, it's gonna make her erratic.
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:51.760
There are times and places she can handle that, but the majority of the time they they just quite frankly, they don't they don't take that very well.
00:49:52.639 --> 00:50:00.639
It seems like I'm learning something in the middle of this conversation about um what's your hard time out?
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:04.559
Uh I I probably got like 15 more minutes.
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:06.480
Cool, for sure.
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:28.800
Um It seems like you're being intentional with this strategy of you've got this activation going on, let's go get regulated through relationship, because that's like the healthy regulation is like let's get regulated through relationship with others, not uh booze, pornography, and drugs.
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.519
That's kind of the more the avoidant attachment style.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:34.880
I'll be by myself, take care of myself through things that are non-human.
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:58.800
Go get regulated via conversation with the people that you love and care about that are kind of on your side and you trust to really give you good guidance and hold your romantic partnership in a place that's separate from that, that then you can bring them in and give them the vulnerable side of like, yeah, I've really been, you know, maybe at the Friday, Friday lunch at the restaurant you guys go to, like it's been a hard week.
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:09.360
You know, I've I've been struggling with a a little bit of indecisiveness with the direction of my business, or you know, I've been really just having a lot of anxiety this week about, you know, this, that, and the other.
00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:25.840
But you can, like you're saying, because you did the job of regulating prior, you can bring them in without feeling like you're dumping it on them saying, like, be a mommy to me, which is I think probably the thing that we're trying to avoid in relationships when men are are communicating.
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:32.079
Invite them in to understand you at a deeper level and a more vulnerable level, but don't ask them to take on your emotional regulation needs.
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:33.199
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:40.719
Yeah, I think that's I think if you can do that like 80, 90% of the time, and then I'll give you something else that you can do the other 10 to 20 percent.
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:47.519
So um we me and Jessica have a code phrase, and I I use it more than she does because she'll just talk to me about anything.
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:52.400
Like when it comes to like, I mean, she will, she'll just vent, and like I, but it you know, guys have a hard time with that.
00:51:52.480 --> 00:52:03.599
But like if I'm in a state where like, and let's just say like nothing that week seems right, like it could be like crap went sideways in the business.
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:07.840
Um, you know, I one of our kids just did this or that, you know.
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:12.239
I you know, it could be uh it could be a variety of different things that like uh kind of all pile up.
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:18.719
And what I'll do with Jess is she, I mean, I've known her for 30 years, so she detects like that kind of stuff from a mile away anyway.
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:23.920
But I'll I'll say, Hey, um, can I give you some shitty first draft emotions?
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:27.119
Yeah, I learned that from a podcast guest.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:29.760
This guy, I was like, shitty first draft emotions, what's that?
00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:38.239
He's like, This is where people just kind of like openly talk, like, and they just like literally just they have there's there's almost like no filter in a way.
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:47.039
You don't get like crazy or angry or mad, but you literally just say a lot of things that are on your mind and how you feel about them, and then the other person just listens.
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:51.599
And so, like when I first gave when I first gave her this term, she's like, What is that?
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:56.960
And I told her, and she's like, and now she like I don't do it that often, but when I do it, she's like, Oh yeah, what do you got?
00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:57.360
Right.
00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.400
But if I were to it's T, by the way, that's what you call T.
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:01.840
Yeah, right.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:07.519
I mean, that's actually you're you're kind of teeing up the conversation for what she can expect.
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:13.280
Now, if I just went in, you know, cold and and I just like started dumping all this stuff on her, it'd probably be a lot.
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:16.079
But if I were to say, Hey, can I give you some shitty first draft emotions?
00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:18.239
And she and then she's like, Yeah, what do you got?
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.400
And I'll just talk out loud.
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:23.599
I'll be like, Okay, so this is going on, this is really frustrating for me.
00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:26.239
I got this going on, and like I can't seem to connect with Mason.
00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:27.599
Like, he's just he's never home.
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.719
Like, and I just like and I'll go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:33.599
And then I'll be done after a few minutes of that.
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:36.880
And what that did for me is it provided me some clarity and an outlet.
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:49.280
But but my wife is also really logical, she's a great sounding board, so she'll be like, you know, here's some of the things that I heard, you know, and maybe some things to think about because she also knows when I go to her, I'm not going just event, like, I really want her advice.
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:52.719
And then she always has like the most simplest logical advice.
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:57.119
So, like, but I'll always give her a heads up that shitty first draft emotions are coming.
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:58.239
I love that, man.
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:06.480
I think it's really cool that like to even pull from Jess Youngblood's framework for masculine and relationship is the structure thing.
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:12.800
You can buy yourself the opportunity to be uh unstructured by introducing restructure, you know.
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:19.119
Uh, I'm gonna start this clock for 15 minutes and I'm just gonna kind of just but when that's up, we're good.
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:23.039
Like I said, so that way she's not sitting there trying to catch everything and go, when's this?
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:24.320
When's this gonna end?
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:24.719
Right.
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:26.000
Right.
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:26.880
Yeah.
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:28.480
That's super cool, man.
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:30.559
I um I want to be respectful of your time.
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:42.000
I really appreciate the conversations today, man, and uh just the expertise that you bring to masculine and relationship from the GS Young Pulitzer stuff, just in general, how men can show up better in relationships and communicating, all that stuff.
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:45.840
It's uh it's it was a pleasure chatting with you last time and just as much this time, man.
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:46.639
Thank you, man.
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:47.440
I appreciate that.
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:48.960
This this is a lot of fun, man.
00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:50.800
I um it's good to be back.
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:52.159
And uh you're a great interviewer.
00:54:52.239 --> 00:55:11.679
And if I could say anything, man, um those of you guys who are listening to you know to Brax, he's he doesn't know I'm gonna say this, but if if you're if you've gotten anything from Brax's show, man, just take a moment, as soon as you're done listening to this, leave this man you know a five-star review on Spotify or Apple or whatever else, and just maybe be specific with one or two sentences of some gold he's given you.
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:18.639
Like we we we give our heart and souls to these podcasts, and the best way to repay us is to it's just to leave a review.
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:20.000
Thank you, Larry.
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:21.199
I appreciate that, man.
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:23.679
And uh, you have a book coming out in a couple months.
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:25.360
Uh where can people get that?
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:27.440
Yeah, the audio book coming out.
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:34.800
Yeah, the audiobook is should be coming out by the end of July, but the the book has been out for since last September, but it's called The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:39.840
So it's uh basically, I as I referred to it, it's kind of like everything that we've taught over the past 10 years.
00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:41.280
It's divided up into four parts.
00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:46.400
One that one is the drift, and to explain that to men, then it's marriage, fatherhood, and leader.
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:56.400
And um, but yeah, there's literally everything encompassing in that book that we've ever taught about raising kids, about being a dad, about being a husband, a man, everything is in there.
00:55:56.719 --> 00:55:57.440
Yeah, wonderful.
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:04.960
And if someone really enjoyed this conversation with Larry and wants to find out more about the work that you do, maybe the coaching one-on-one, what's the best for them to contact you?
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:10.800
I mean, just if you go to you know info at the dad edge, that's I I answer all of those emails.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:13.119
Um, you can just drop drop me a line if you want.
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:15.199
I always I always tell people start with the podcast.
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:21.199
I've I just crossed over 1,500 podcasts, so like I got enough content out there to keep you busy for like a decade.
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:23.599
But um, but I always tell people start with the podcast.
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:27.679
You can the Dad Edge Podcast is everywhere where podcasts are downloaded.
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:28.880
It's wonderful, man.
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:30.079
Thank you again for your time, Mike.
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:30.800
Thank you.