00:00:07Summer Law Job Success Strategies
00:10:44Summer Work Assignments and Communication
00:16:01Summer Associate Success Strategies
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In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond business restructuring, creditors' rights and bankruptcy attorney Andrew Rivera. Andrew, who is the Summer Coordinator for Bond's Summer Law Clerk Program, shares advice for law students on how to make the most out of their summer law jobs.
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Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Schenick King.
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I'm your host, kim Wolf-Price.
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Today we're talking with Andrew Romero, an attorney in Bond's Syracuse office.
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Andrew practices in our business restructuring, creditors' rights and bankruptcy group.
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Andrew was also serving as the summer coordinator for Bond's Summer Associate or Summer Law Clerk Program, and we asked him to join us for this special episode to share advice with all the law students out there on making the most of their summer law jobs.
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Hi, andrew, thanks so much for coming back and joining us.
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Hi Kim, and no problem.
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Happy to be here.
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Always good to talk to you and really do appreciate you coming in.
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I think it's timely that we have this conversation, don't you think?
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I think so, especially because we just had our summer law clerks start about a week ago.
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Exactly.
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We may have given them this inside review before we gave it to everybody else, all right, so it's been a while since we spoke on the podcast, so would you mind talking a little bit about yourself, giving us a little bit about your background either, where you grew up, undergrad, law school, family, whatever you think you'd like to share?
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Sure, so I'm originally from Poughkeepsie, New York, where I grew up, and then I went to undergrad at the university at Albany and I took a year off to start a career before I decided I wanted to go back to law school.
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So I went to Albany Law and then after law school I started with Bonchun and King as a first-year associate.
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That's great, so you were the coordinator for our summer program, but you did not participate in our summer program.
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Yes, that is correct.
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You spent many years helping out with it, which we totally appreciate.
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All right.
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So before we get into the advice for summer law clerks or summer associates so I say that because here at Bond we use the term summer law clerks, but I think a lot of law firms use summer associates as the way they identify the individuals who are current law students, typically the summer after their second of three years of law school, who come and learn about the law firm, practice, do a little bit of well.
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They don't practice because they certainly can't do that, but they work under the lawyers, the firm, to learn a little bit about us and we learn a little bit about them to see if maybe they're right to join us after graduation.
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But before we get into all of that, I gave the name of your practice group business restructuring, creditors rights and bankruptcy.
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So what does an attorney who practices in that practice group do?
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So it's really three different things.
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So when I go to dinner parties and things like that and people find out I'm an attorney, they always say what kind of law do you do?
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And I say I'm a restructuring lawyer and I get some puzzling looks.
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Not many people know what that is but, to put it simply, what I do is I assist my clients with restructuring their assets and liabilities.
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That can be in court or out of court with creditors' rights.
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It's exactly what it sounds like you have a customer and you send an invoice and maybe you don't get paid from your customer and creditors have rights and I assist them with maximizing their recovery for goods and services.
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And the last piece is the bankruptcy piece, which we do a lot of and talk about fun topics at dinner parties.
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Most attorneys don't know a lot about bankruptcy, let alone lay people.
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But what we primarily do at our firm is Chapter 11 cases and we represent creditors and debtors in all sorts of different types of cases, from fraud and Ponzi cases to mass tort cases like Purdue and some of the diocese cases that you see in the news to your regular commercial and retail cases shopping malls, bakeries, nursing homes, all types of people.
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So I think I remember a little bit from that class in law school but from working with all of you in your practice group.
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It's a combination of client counseling, transactional work and litigation all rolled in one right.
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Yeah, I would say transactional and litigation focus, not quite 50-50, but I like to think of it as kind of like the last generalist practice area where we deal with its convergence of labor property law, some M&A, commercial litigation and more.
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It's just everything wrapped up in one case.
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Yeah, and it seems to me that the reason we call it restructuring a lot is that it's really, in the end, about business solutions.
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That practice.
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Right, right.
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So a lot of clients that give us a call, they're having issues, financial distress, and we're really trying to find a way to make their one successful business successful again.
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That's great, all right.
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Well, thank you very much for that and giving us that perspective.
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So I guess it's time to be on to advice for the law students out there in their summer jobs.
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So we all know they're probably nervous.
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They may have never worked a professional job before, or this is a career change and they've done something totally different before.
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So, andrew, is there one word or sentence that might sum up what summer associates need to?
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do.
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It's hard to really boil it down to one thing, but if it truly is one word, I would use the word communicate, or communication but also be proactive is another one, but we'll talk about a lot of other strategies to help succeed in the summer.
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Yeah, a big part of it is not let the summer happen to you, right?
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Let it just happen.
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That's where that proactive comes in.
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All right, so you mentioned communication and it's certainly a critical in all aspects of legal practice.
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But when we talk about it for summer associates, basically what are we talking about when you say communicate?
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Well, the main source of assignments that you're going to get over the summer are going to come from older associates or partners and you need to speak with them in a direct, communicative way to make sure that you're on the same page in receiving an assignment.
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So, for example, an attorney might pop in.
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They want your help on something.
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They want a motion to lift the automatic stay, which is a bankruptcy buzzword, very popular bankruptcy issue.
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But a law student might not have any idea what the automatic stay is and effective communication would be asking some follow-up questions.
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Like I'm not familiar with what an automatic stay is, can you point me to where I could find more about that so I could further help with this assignment?
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So make sure that you understand the assignment and that way you can deliver a work product that's going to make you look good in the end.
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Yeah, that's great advice and you said the word.
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But, like, part of communication is asking questions and not being afraid to do that, isn't it?
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Right and there really is no.
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I hate to say this, but it is true.
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Most of the time there are no dumb questions, and if you really have a question that you're too intimidated to ask right then in the moment, you can always follow up later.
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An assignment's not usually due in five minutes, so within your deadline.
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If you come up with questions the next day after you had some time to think about it and you still have that question, that's the time when you should follow up and get an answer to make sure you're on the right track.
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And part of that is going to your resources and communicating with them.
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And who might some of those people be?
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So it'll vary from what type of firm.
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Some firms are really small and you might have different types of resources.
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Other firms are really large, but the advice that I like to give is first start with your peers.
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So if you have a very basic question like dress code or something else throughout the summer, you could start with asking one of the other summer law clerks or summer associates.
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If you need a little bit more of an advanced answer, I would.
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The very first person I would go to is your administrative assistant, Absolutely Out at our firm.
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They know everything.
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So what I say is that they have the institutional knowledge.
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So anything that you want answered, they're a good resource to go to in the first instance.
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Yeah, absolutely, and so I guess maybe we should divert for just a second.
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Because you mentioned administrative assistants, what is the importance of developing a relationship with your administrative assistant or the other folks who work with attorneys, paralegals or other support staff, even starting in your summer?
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Yeah, so it's critically important to figure it out.
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Most people, when they start law, have never worked with an assistant before.
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Some have never had a professional job outside of law school, so it's all new.
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But they have been here for a long time.
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They've worked with many attorneys and it takes time to figure out how to work together.
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They have their job, you have your job, but when you work together the legal product becomes so much better and more efficient and you could focus more of your time and energy into billing hours, which is how us as a law firm brings in revenue.
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But that could start off small, like getting to know them what they like outside of work, figuring out how, when you're a really young lawyer, and certainly over the summer, there are a lot of things that are going to take you longer to do and you should probably figure out how to do those things.
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But for some simple things they can help you, like entering your time and figuring out issues with your IT, like your computer or webcam problems or who to talk to when you're fixing a table of contents in a motion for summary judgment you're drafting or something like that.
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They could probably figure it out in five minutes when it could take you 30 minutes of contents.
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In a motion for summary judgment you're drafting, or something like that, they could probably figure it out in five minutes when it could take you 30 minutes, you know.
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So those little efficiencies are where they help the most.
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And they help you when you know all of the, not just the person you're working with, but you need to get in to see a certain partner and you can't find them.
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They know their schedule right, so get to know them.
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And you mentioned this one curly quotes or straight quotes which ones do?
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They like, but it matters right.
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It really does.
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They can help you find a specimen document if you want to start off with a form or if you want to see what kind of style of writing the assigning partner has or likes certain documents drafted.
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But at your point, if there is I don't think anyone here is scary, but the extent there's a scary partner, senior partner, corner office or whatever and you don't want to approach him when he's on the phone or extremely busy, that's when you talk to their admin or have your admin talk to their admin and find out a pocket of time where you can approach them and ask your questions.
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That's great, it's great advice, so important though, right Like obviously be nice to everyone, right, absolutely yeah.
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It'll come back.
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First of all, if you have issues with your admin or other staff, it probably will come up in your reviews, which maybe we'll talk about later.
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But you want to give a good impression, and treating people nicely and with respect is going to go a long way.
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Absolutely Well.
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Thank you All right.
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So I guess we should talk about the work part of this right.
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So doing work, getting assignments, that's a big part of the summer.
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The work summer associates do it's really the best way for attorneys to get to know them, isn't it?
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The?
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work summer associates do.
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It's really the best way for attorneys to get to know them, isn't it?
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Yeah, so it's really how you're graded throughout the summer.
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Right, so you have good grades.
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You did great in your interview.
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That gets your foot in the door, but having a good summer and delivering good work product consistently is going to be what gets you the offer at the end of the summer.
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So definitely focus on the things that you can control.
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I can speak for our firm.
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There are research assignments and then sometimes you're drafting motions or contracts.
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You will get work that is similar to what a first-year associate gets and nobody's expecting you to be the next great legal mind in your first 10 weeks at the firm and drafting amicus briefs and things like that.
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But you are expected to control the things that you can control, for example, typos and clear, concise writing in grammar.
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Those are the things that you can control.
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So when you're done drafting something, always take a couple of minutes or however long it takes to proofread what you're submitting, because after reading something a bunch of times as you're drafting it, your eyes could glaze over and miss things.
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So if you just take those couple of minutes to do one last proofread before submitting it.
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You could improve your work quality.
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Absolutely, and if it's the right kind of document, go to your administrative assistant and say, hey, can you proof this for me?
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Yes, they're there to help, and those are the things that they can definitely help with.
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And I think that the point you're making right.
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It's the thing you can control, but it's also the thing that more junior either law clerks or associates that's what more senior folks depend on them for is making sure the citations are right, that the grammar is good, that there are no typos.
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It's that tightening up piece that that's what you're supposed to help with.
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Right, absolutely.
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So what are some sort of tips from you for handling assignments?
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So the number one would be to be open to receiving them.
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Have your door open.
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You know people will pop in and just come in and say, hey, do you have five minutes?
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And they'll start talking to you about a legal issue.
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They might call you, they might email you ahead of time.
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They might go through an associate that they work with if it's coming from a partner for them to come give you an assignment.
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But be open to receiving the assignment and don't say no.
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If you could control it, say yes, but or yes.
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And if you have multiple deadlines, that you might be juggling.
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And that goes back to what we said in the beginning, which is communicate.
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That's what we mean by communicate.
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They say I need this by Wednesday, but you have another assignment that's due Wednesday.
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Explain that to them, say I'd love to help you with this, but I'm dealing with this other deadline.
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Is there any flexibility?
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Or should I go back to the first attorney and talk to them about it?
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And most of the times, the deadlines that you're given over the summer are flexible.
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It's not like there's a filing deadline and they're relying on you as the last degree of defense to get this done on time.
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So you're important to the process, but keep in mind that most deadlines you get are somewhat flexible.
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So that would be number one.
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The second thing we kind of touched on it before is make sure you understand the assignment.
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Ask questions like what format would you like?
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Would you like a memo?
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Would you like bullet points?
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Would you like an email with some case law, with some parentheticals, email with some case law with some parentheticals.
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And what I find useful in understanding the assignment is taking notes while they're talking to you about the issue and what they need, and then try parroting it back to them, repeating back what they say to you and put your understanding on it to make sure that both of your understandings of what they're looking for is the same.
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And that will help when you're a day or two into the assignment and you know you're on the right track.
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And then also I touched on this earlier which is the last thing was, if you have a couple of days or a week to do an assignment, take the time.
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If you have questions, ask the questions and make sure that what you're delivering is a good final finished product.
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Yeah, and I think that's a good point.
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You made a couple of good ones, especially at the end, to make sure it's a good product, something you'd be proud to turn in right.
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Don't rush it and ask those follow up questions.
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I can't tell you, andrew, the number of times people have said, well, I don't want to go, bother the person, but it's not a bother, because we want you to get it right, right, and we want it to be right.
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So that's, it's a communication, isn't it?
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Absolutely Yep.
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And it won't stop with really every lawyer, and it's a continuation from your summer to your 40th year in practice.
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I I'm convinced that it'll always be this way to the practice of law.
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I think so too.
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That's why we call it a practice.
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I'm convinced that it'll always be this way.
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It's the practice of law.
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I think so too.
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That's why we call it a practice.
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Right, and that's it.
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And also I think it goes back to here using your resources, if you're really stuck or if you're really not sure all those people that are around you that you mentioned before, starting with your peers or the junior associates or whomever else go talk to them.
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Great, yeah, it takes a minute, I think, but then people can get into it.
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So we just have to.
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I feel like there's not enough times we can say if you have a deadline and you haven't communicated, you need another one.
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That deadline matters, right, you have to meet that.
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It's an expectation, isn't it?
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It's an expectation and it's important.
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And also some attorneys will give you an assignment and not specify a deadline.
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You should ask for one for a couple of reasons.
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Number one they might not have realized that they didn't give you a deadline.
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But also it keeps you and your work schedule organized in a way, so you know if you, if you, don't have a deadline on one assignment and then you get a second assignment that is more time sensitive, you might end up juggling multiple work assignments and it's just better to have clear, defined guidelines for your work assignments.
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But also this goes back to things you could control and it's a reflection of your time management skills and your ability to handle multiple tasks, which is ultimately what we look for in young attorneys at Bond and really what I imagine most law firms are looking for.
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So your ability to take in work assignments and meet the deadlines that were set is a huge component of your success.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Any legal employer wants to know that you can handle what's going to be coming at you.
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You'd mentioned briefly reviews or, however, feedback.
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You know there's a little bit of something.
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It's not such a formal process as it is when people are, you know, full-time employees.
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But if you do all those things right, if you meet deadlines, if you, you know, try to control for typos, if you ask about the formatting, that means you can have a really good conversation with positive feedback, doesn't it?
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Yes, absolutely, and feedback is important and I know that everyone wants it, but it's also important to know that not all attorneys are great teachers and sometimes they don't realize that they're giving.
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Feedback is important and it's okay to ask for feedback, but also there are other ways to get feedback.
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You can look at the final product that's delivered to the client.
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Or I know in our firm we save new versions of documents so you could run a red line and see the changes that were made.
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You could follow up in a week or two when you see that person in the elevator or in the kitchenette and say, hey, what did the client end up deciding to do with this issue?
00:18:20.291 --> 00:18:24.967
Or that research makes sense or really anything to elicit some kind of feedback.
00:18:25.568 --> 00:18:29.857
And I also find that sometimes not receiving feedback is a good thing.
00:18:29.857 --> 00:18:31.128
It means you did a good job.
00:18:31.128 --> 00:18:44.618
And throughout the summer here we do have set times in the middle of the summer and then again at the end of the summer for a more formal feedback process, and that mirrors closely what we do for associates.
00:18:44.618 --> 00:18:57.470
We have the end of the year review process, so that's a period of time where you get more formal feedback and we send out messages to all of the attorneys that you've worked with and ask them for feedback, so you will get it.
00:18:57.470 --> 00:19:05.582
But if you're craving more than that or you want a little bit more reassurance, feel free to find ways to ask for it.
00:19:06.425 --> 00:19:07.987
Right, so we have those evaluations.
00:19:07.987 --> 00:19:21.855
But if you're looking for day to day feedback here or really anywhere where you're working with lawyers, please don't take it personally when they don't stop and have time for that, because sometimes they just don't have time or they're not thinking about it, so no one should read too much into that.
00:19:21.855 --> 00:19:23.585
So you think Right, right.
00:19:24.707 --> 00:19:24.967
All right.
00:19:24.967 --> 00:19:30.997
So the summer is a good chance, I would say, to observe how attorneys work and the legal process.
00:19:30.997 --> 00:19:35.022
Chance, I would say, to observe how attorneys work and the legal process.
00:19:35.022 --> 00:19:41.256
So it may sound simple, but should summer associates pay attention to, like, the style of how people work, the time people are in the office, how matters develop?
00:19:41.256 --> 00:19:43.224
Is this a period where they can kind of observe that?
00:19:43.224 --> 00:19:44.829
Is it a discovery phase for them?
00:19:45.772 --> 00:19:53.367
I think that observation is like one of the most valuable tools that you could use to learn from older and more experienced attorneys.
00:19:53.367 --> 00:19:56.155
You will have opportunities to shadow here.
00:19:56.155 --> 00:20:15.435
You could go to court with them, go to client events, just simply sit in on conference calls with opposing counsel or with clients and you can learn how attorneys phrase certain things, how they pause on the phone to elicit a response small things like that and if you're not paying attention to it, you can miss it.
00:20:15.435 --> 00:20:19.796
But that's a huge part of how we learn as lawyers is we learn from other lawyers.
00:20:19.796 --> 00:20:25.817
So it's, in my opinion, a huge aspect of learning throughout your summer is observe around you.
00:20:25.817 --> 00:20:28.050
When are the other attorneys coming into the office?
00:20:28.050 --> 00:20:29.977
How are they interacting with their admin?
00:20:29.977 --> 00:20:32.994
What kind of assignments are they asking their admin to do for them?
00:20:32.994 --> 00:20:38.278
How do they interact with other attorneys in the firm and externally and paralegals?
00:20:38.278 --> 00:20:42.656
Those things are very important to learning how to succeed here.
00:20:43.484 --> 00:20:46.085
Yeah, I think that's great advice, and great advice for anyone right.
00:20:46.085 --> 00:21:00.578
We started as an apprenticeship model profession and that's why we call it a practice Right, because you're always trying to get better, just like an athlete would watch tapes or, you know, watch practice like breaking down the film.
00:21:01.005 --> 00:21:02.448
Yes, breaking down Exactly.
00:21:02.448 --> 00:21:10.814
It's kind of you get to do that a little bit in real time to see how other people are doing it, and then you can figure out how that works for you.
00:21:10.814 --> 00:21:13.028
I think that's great advice.
00:21:13.028 --> 00:21:15.614
All right, so one more last topic.
00:21:15.614 --> 00:21:23.134
Everyone's least favorite word, I think, when you're talking to law students besides final exam, is networking.
00:21:23.134 --> 00:21:27.951
Networking within your firm or your office is really important over the summer, isn't it?
00:21:28.834 --> 00:21:33.188
I think it's very important is really important over the summer, isn't it?
00:21:33.188 --> 00:21:33.769
I think it's very important.
00:21:33.769 --> 00:21:34.912
So we do a lot of fun things over the summer.
00:21:34.912 --> 00:21:42.955
There are a lot of happy hours or get togethers outside of work, and I think that this is one of the more underrated ways to generate more assignments at work.
00:21:42.955 --> 00:21:49.694
So, for example, we had a welcome reception on the first day for our summer law clerk.
00:21:50.256 --> 00:22:03.667
And I stress to them you know, socialize, meet partners, ask them what they do, because once they start talking about what they do, it gives you an opportunity to find things that you might find interesting or not and say, hey, I'd like to experience that.
00:22:03.667 --> 00:22:12.472
I'm rotating through this practice area or department, but if you have anything interesting that you would need some help on, I'm available for assignments.
00:22:12.472 --> 00:22:23.430
And when attorneys can put a face to your name, everyone gets emails ahead of time that we have summer law clerks coming get your assignments together.
00:22:23.430 --> 00:22:37.667
But when an attorney meets you in person and sees that you're interested in their area of law or just in getting assignments in general, it gives them that extra motivation, that kick to give you an assignment and follow through and perhaps give you some feedback and if you do a nice job.
00:22:37.667 --> 00:22:42.489
You might get some more follow-up assignments and be able to follow the case or matter along.
00:22:43.292 --> 00:22:45.381
Yeah, that's great, I mean, I think that's really important.
00:22:45.381 --> 00:22:49.409
So it's networking with the attorneys and, of course, the staff, as we've mentioned, and getting to know them.
00:22:49.409 --> 00:22:55.757
But it's also, if you happen to have, like our summer class, a whole class of people, a group of people.
00:22:55.757 --> 00:22:58.279
It's important to get to know them too, isn't it?
00:22:59.401 --> 00:23:00.021
Absolutely.
00:23:00.021 --> 00:23:05.738
So your class becomes somewhat of like I started with eight associates.
00:23:05.738 --> 00:23:14.931
Some of us are still at the firm and there's this camaraderie where you could go to that person and talk to them about anything when it comes to the firm.
00:23:14.931 --> 00:23:18.174
So they're going through the same process you are.
00:23:18.174 --> 00:23:21.996
They could be a resource to you and you could be a resource to them.
00:23:21.996 --> 00:23:25.355
And I find it very helpful to start a chat.
00:23:25.355 --> 00:23:38.508
We have teams, but I'm sure most firms have some form of a chatting application and create a group chat and talk about things, talk about assignments, talk about I mentioned dress code earlier, but it's actually serious.
00:23:38.567 --> 00:23:39.971
Everyone has that question right.
00:23:39.971 --> 00:23:41.596
So we're going to a firm event.
00:23:41.596 --> 00:23:43.429
All the summer law clerks are invited.
00:23:43.429 --> 00:23:45.051
What do I wear?
00:23:45.051 --> 00:23:49.630
That type of question still comes up for me in pretty much every event I go to.
00:23:49.630 --> 00:23:52.768
So questions like that are great for the group chat.
00:23:52.768 --> 00:23:57.397
Or there's a question that you might not want to go to your admin.
00:23:57.397 --> 00:23:59.829
Yet you start with your summer law clerk.
00:23:59.829 --> 00:24:06.750
So they are, like I said, going through the same process as you and it's helpful to form some friendships there.
00:24:07.612 --> 00:24:18.478
Absolutely, and this is all important, because the law can be stressful, it can be tough, but it's based on relationships, so it's important to build those, isn't it?
00:24:19.326 --> 00:24:27.209
Absolutely, and I mentioned earlier that one of the you know the biggest grade you're getting over the summer is your work assignments.
00:24:27.209 --> 00:24:36.393
But also, I think, an underrated aspect of how to succeed during your summer law clerk position is to get people to like you.
00:24:36.393 --> 00:24:42.211
And that's not to say you have to be on or like the most interesting person in the room.
00:24:42.211 --> 00:25:01.118
Just be yourself and be interested and show that you want to be there, because, ultimately, what you're here for, hopefully, is auditioning to be a first-year associate, and what I think we all want, and what you guys should want as summer law clerks, is to like the people you work with.
00:25:01.118 --> 00:25:09.267
Right, we spend a lot of time together in the office working together, so to the extent that you like each other, it makes things a little bit easier.
00:25:09.827 --> 00:25:10.328
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:10.328 --> 00:25:13.234
You want to be able to count on each other, right?
00:25:13.234 --> 00:25:16.307
That, like you're going to get your part done, I'll get my part done.
00:25:16.307 --> 00:25:21.057
And and, like you said, be yourself, right, don't try to be someone else.
00:25:21.057 --> 00:25:23.186
Don't try to, like you know, bring your whole self to work.
00:25:23.186 --> 00:25:27.913
But I think it is important to be that dependable person.
00:25:27.913 --> 00:25:33.468
Right, I'll say it're just a bunch of nerds, we're lawyers, right, we're interested in this stuff.
00:25:33.468 --> 00:25:42.737
So we want people who are curious and interested in it too and who want to have conversations about it and who are really interested in doing good work.
00:25:42.737 --> 00:25:48.443
Right, so we also will talk about sports and other things, and that'll come right.
00:25:48.443 --> 00:25:50.048
Those types of relationships will come.
00:25:50.048 --> 00:25:56.853
As you're working with people, you know, you'll like learn a little bit about each other, and that's what makes it interesting.
00:25:57.515 --> 00:25:58.699
Yeah, absolutely those are.
00:25:58.699 --> 00:26:07.727
You know, the water cooler conversations are important and the small talk and elevator up and that all helps putting a face to the name, like I mentioned earlier.
00:26:07.727 --> 00:26:10.051
So all of those little things are helpful.
00:26:10.532 --> 00:26:14.118
All right, so any sort of additional words of advice before we sign off?
00:26:15.846 --> 00:26:21.218
I would just keep in mind that while 10 weeks seems like a long time, it goes by very fast.
00:26:21.218 --> 00:26:25.112
So remember, you know the reason why you're here.
00:26:25.112 --> 00:26:40.314
Try to gain as much experience as you can, put your best foot forward, because before you know it, you're pivoting and you're going back to finish your last year of law school or, if you're a 1L law clerk, you're heading into your 2L year, which is, for many, a really tough time.
00:26:40.314 --> 00:26:44.430
So enjoy it and try to get what you can out of the experience.
00:26:45.111 --> 00:26:45.613
That's great.
00:26:45.613 --> 00:26:46.675
Thank you so much, andrew.
00:26:46.675 --> 00:26:49.853
Thanks for joining us today and for the fantastic advice.
00:26:49.853 --> 00:27:00.712
Also, thank you for all of the really great firm service that you do for Bond with this summer class and in so many other ways, for saying yes so often when we call on you.
00:27:00.712 --> 00:27:02.135
So thank you very much.
00:27:02.656 --> 00:27:06.346
I hope you'll come back soon and maybe talk about financial restructuring.
00:27:06.346 --> 00:27:07.909
I would be happy to do that.
00:27:08.368 --> 00:27:09.630
All right, terrific, thank you.
00:27:09.630 --> 00:27:16.476
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond.
00:27:16.476 --> 00:27:23.760
If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybondbskcom.
00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:29.306
Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded.
00:27:29.306 --> 00:27:31.048
Until our next talk, be well.
00:27:35.972 --> 00:27:40.678
Bond, schenick and King has prepared this communication to present only general information.
00:27:40.678 --> 00:27:45.021
This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such.
00:27:45.021 --> 00:27:49.173
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00:27:49.173 --> 00:27:54.911
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00:27:54.911 --> 00:28:01.353
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00:28:01.353 --> 00:28:10.856
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00:28:10.856 --> 00:28:12.940
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00:00:07.769 --> 00:00:11.976
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Schenick King.
00:00:11.976 --> 00:00:13.724
I'm your host, kim Wolf-Price.
00:00:13.724 --> 00:00:18.123
Today we're talking with Andrew Romero, an attorney in Bond's Syracuse office.
00:00:18.123 --> 00:00:23.242
Andrew practices in our business restructuring, creditors' rights and bankruptcy group.
00:00:23.242 --> 00:00:36.404
Andrew was also serving as the summer coordinator for Bond's Summer Associate or Summer Law Clerk Program, and we asked him to join us for this special episode to share advice with all the law students out there on making the most of their summer law jobs.
00:00:36.404 --> 00:00:39.151
Hi, andrew, thanks so much for coming back and joining us.
00:00:39.619 --> 00:00:40.725
Hi Kim, and no problem.
00:00:40.725 --> 00:00:41.487
Happy to be here.
00:00:42.500 --> 00:00:45.521
Always good to talk to you and really do appreciate you coming in.
00:00:45.521 --> 00:00:48.067
I think it's timely that we have this conversation, don't you think?
00:00:48.548 --> 00:00:52.307
I think so, especially because we just had our summer law clerks start about a week ago.
00:00:52.890 --> 00:00:53.290
Exactly.
00:00:53.290 --> 00:01:11.605
We may have given them this inside review before we gave it to everybody else, all right, so it's been a while since we spoke on the podcast, so would you mind talking a little bit about yourself, giving us a little bit about your background either, where you grew up, undergrad, law school, family, whatever you think you'd like to share?
00:01:12.248 --> 00:01:23.805
Sure, so I'm originally from Poughkeepsie, New York, where I grew up, and then I went to undergrad at the university at Albany and I took a year off to start a career before I decided I wanted to go back to law school.
00:01:23.805 --> 00:01:31.875
So I went to Albany Law and then after law school I started with Bonchun and King as a first-year associate.
00:01:36.739 --> 00:01:39.266
That's great, so you were the coordinator for our summer program, but you did not participate in our summer program.
00:01:39.287 --> 00:01:40.049
Yes, that is correct.
00:01:40.329 --> 00:01:43.384
You spent many years helping out with it, which we totally appreciate.
00:01:43.384 --> 00:01:44.165
All right.
00:01:44.165 --> 00:02:07.183
So before we get into the advice for summer law clerks or summer associates so I say that because here at Bond we use the term summer law clerks, but I think a lot of law firms use summer associates as the way they identify the individuals who are current law students, typically the summer after their second of three years of law school, who come and learn about the law firm, practice, do a little bit of well.
00:02:07.183 --> 00:02:18.129
They don't practice because they certainly can't do that, but they work under the lawyers, the firm, to learn a little bit about us and we learn a little bit about them to see if maybe they're right to join us after graduation.
00:02:18.129 --> 00:02:26.682
But before we get into all of that, I gave the name of your practice group business restructuring, creditors rights and bankruptcy.
00:02:26.682 --> 00:02:29.230
So what does an attorney who practices in that practice group do?
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:31.907
So it's really three different things.
00:02:31.907 --> 00:02:37.826
So when I go to dinner parties and things like that and people find out I'm an attorney, they always say what kind of law do you do?
00:02:37.826 --> 00:02:41.229
And I say I'm a restructuring lawyer and I get some puzzling looks.
00:02:41.229 --> 00:02:48.774
Not many people know what that is but, to put it simply, what I do is I assist my clients with restructuring their assets and liabilities.
00:02:48.774 --> 00:02:52.931
That can be in court or out of court with creditors' rights.
00:02:52.931 --> 00:03:06.483
It's exactly what it sounds like you have a customer and you send an invoice and maybe you don't get paid from your customer and creditors have rights and I assist them with maximizing their recovery for goods and services.
00:03:06.903 --> 00:03:13.566
And the last piece is the bankruptcy piece, which we do a lot of and talk about fun topics at dinner parties.
00:03:13.566 --> 00:03:18.203
Most attorneys don't know a lot about bankruptcy, let alone lay people.
00:03:18.203 --> 00:03:44.125
But what we primarily do at our firm is Chapter 11 cases and we represent creditors and debtors in all sorts of different types of cases, from fraud and Ponzi cases to mass tort cases like Purdue and some of the diocese cases that you see in the news to your regular commercial and retail cases shopping malls, bakeries, nursing homes, all types of people.
00:03:44.846 --> 00:03:51.362
So I think I remember a little bit from that class in law school but from working with all of you in your practice group.
00:03:51.362 --> 00:03:56.663
It's a combination of client counseling, transactional work and litigation all rolled in one right.
00:03:57.346 --> 00:04:16.262
Yeah, I would say transactional and litigation focus, not quite 50-50, but I like to think of it as kind of like the last generalist practice area where we deal with its convergence of labor property law, some M&A, commercial litigation and more.
00:04:16.262 --> 00:04:18.507
It's just everything wrapped up in one case.
00:04:19.509 --> 00:04:26.091
Yeah, and it seems to me that the reason we call it restructuring a lot is that it's really, in the end, about business solutions.
00:04:26.091 --> 00:04:26.872
That practice.
00:04:27.579 --> 00:04:28.161
Right, right.
00:04:28.161 --> 00:04:38.112
So a lot of clients that give us a call, they're having issues, financial distress, and we're really trying to find a way to make their one successful business successful again.
00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:39.704
That's great, all right.
00:04:39.704 --> 00:04:42.779
Well, thank you very much for that and giving us that perspective.
00:04:42.779 --> 00:04:48.353
So I guess it's time to be on to advice for the law students out there in their summer jobs.
00:04:48.353 --> 00:04:50.447
So we all know they're probably nervous.
00:04:50.447 --> 00:04:56.452
They may have never worked a professional job before, or this is a career change and they've done something totally different before.
00:04:56.452 --> 00:05:02.892
So, andrew, is there one word or sentence that might sum up what summer associates need to?
00:05:02.952 --> 00:05:03.072
do.
00:05:03.072 --> 00:05:17.521
It's hard to really boil it down to one thing, but if it truly is one word, I would use the word communicate, or communication but also be proactive is another one, but we'll talk about a lot of other strategies to help succeed in the summer.
00:05:18.343 --> 00:05:22.071
Yeah, a big part of it is not let the summer happen to you, right?
00:05:22.290 --> 00:05:23.052
Let it just happen.
00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:24.805
That's where that proactive comes in.
00:05:24.805 --> 00:05:30.339
All right, so you mentioned communication and it's certainly a critical in all aspects of legal practice.
00:05:30.339 --> 00:05:35.800
But when we talk about it for summer associates, basically what are we talking about when you say communicate?
00:05:36.502 --> 00:05:53.324
Well, the main source of assignments that you're going to get over the summer are going to come from older associates or partners and you need to speak with them in a direct, communicative way to make sure that you're on the same page in receiving an assignment.
00:05:53.324 --> 00:05:56.250
So, for example, an attorney might pop in.
00:05:56.250 --> 00:05:57.540
They want your help on something.
00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:04.286
They want a motion to lift the automatic stay, which is a bankruptcy buzzword, very popular bankruptcy issue.
00:06:04.286 --> 00:06:12.521
But a law student might not have any idea what the automatic stay is and effective communication would be asking some follow-up questions.
00:06:12.521 --> 00:06:20.487
Like I'm not familiar with what an automatic stay is, can you point me to where I could find more about that so I could further help with this assignment?
00:06:20.487 --> 00:06:27.824
So make sure that you understand the assignment and that way you can deliver a work product that's going to make you look good in the end.
00:06:28.526 --> 00:06:31.321
Yeah, that's great advice and you said the word.
00:06:31.321 --> 00:06:36.740
But, like, part of communication is asking questions and not being afraid to do that, isn't it?
00:06:37.281 --> 00:06:39.326
Right and there really is no.
00:06:39.326 --> 00:06:41.372
I hate to say this, but it is true.
00:06:41.372 --> 00:06:50.742
Most of the time there are no dumb questions, and if you really have a question that you're too intimidated to ask right then in the moment, you can always follow up later.
00:06:50.742 --> 00:06:55.093
An assignment's not usually due in five minutes, so within your deadline.
00:06:55.093 --> 00:07:04.802
If you come up with questions the next day after you had some time to think about it and you still have that question, that's the time when you should follow up and get an answer to make sure you're on the right track.
00:07:05.701 --> 00:07:10.303
And part of that is going to your resources and communicating with them.
00:07:10.303 --> 00:07:11.862
And who might some of those people be?
00:07:13.086 --> 00:07:15.709
So it'll vary from what type of firm.
00:07:15.709 --> 00:07:18.572
Some firms are really small and you might have different types of resources.
00:07:18.572 --> 00:07:23.980
Other firms are really large, but the advice that I like to give is first start with your peers.
00:07:23.980 --> 00:07:34.250
So if you have a very basic question like dress code or something else throughout the summer, you could start with asking one of the other summer law clerks or summer associates.
00:07:34.250 --> 00:07:37.932
If you need a little bit more of an advanced answer, I would.
00:07:37.932 --> 00:07:44.237
The very first person I would go to is your administrative assistant, Absolutely Out at our firm.
00:07:44.237 --> 00:07:45.577
They know everything.
00:07:45.577 --> 00:07:48.519
So what I say is that they have the institutional knowledge.
00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:54.362
So anything that you want answered, they're a good resource to go to in the first instance.
00:07:55.264 --> 00:07:58.468
Yeah, absolutely, and so I guess maybe we should divert for just a second.
00:07:58.468 --> 00:08:11.495
Because you mentioned administrative assistants, what is the importance of developing a relationship with your administrative assistant or the other folks who work with attorneys, paralegals or other support staff, even starting in your summer?
00:08:12.096 --> 00:08:14.749
Yeah, so it's critically important to figure it out.
00:08:14.749 --> 00:08:19.399
Most people, when they start law, have never worked with an assistant before.
00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:24.391
Some have never had a professional job outside of law school, so it's all new.
00:08:24.391 --> 00:08:27.514
But they have been here for a long time.
00:08:27.514 --> 00:08:32.432
They've worked with many attorneys and it takes time to figure out how to work together.
00:08:32.432 --> 00:08:46.313
They have their job, you have your job, but when you work together the legal product becomes so much better and more efficient and you could focus more of your time and energy into billing hours, which is how us as a law firm brings in revenue.
00:08:46.735 --> 00:09:00.019
But that could start off small, like getting to know them what they like outside of work, figuring out how, when you're a really young lawyer, and certainly over the summer, there are a lot of things that are going to take you longer to do and you should probably figure out how to do those things.
00:09:00.019 --> 00:09:13.812
But for some simple things they can help you, like entering your time and figuring out issues with your IT, like your computer or webcam problems or who to talk to when you're fixing a table of contents in a motion for summary judgment you're drafting or something like that.
00:09:13.812 --> 00:09:15.958
They could probably figure it out in five minutes when it could take you 30 minutes of contents.
00:09:15.958 --> 00:09:21.296
In a motion for summary judgment you're drafting, or something like that, they could probably figure it out in five minutes when it could take you 30 minutes, you know.
00:09:21.296 --> 00:09:25.096
So those little efficiencies are where they help the most.
00:09:26.065 --> 00:09:35.378
And they help you when you know all of the, not just the person you're working with, but you need to get in to see a certain partner and you can't find them.
00:09:35.378 --> 00:09:37.950
They know their schedule right, so get to know them.
00:09:37.950 --> 00:09:42.755
And you mentioned this one curly quotes or straight quotes which ones do?
00:09:42.755 --> 00:09:44.908
They like, but it matters right.
00:09:45.089 --> 00:09:45.791
It really does.
00:09:45.791 --> 00:09:58.046
They can help you find a specimen document if you want to start off with a form or if you want to see what kind of style of writing the assigning partner has or likes certain documents drafted.
00:09:58.046 --> 00:10:20.169
But at your point, if there is I don't think anyone here is scary, but the extent there's a scary partner, senior partner, corner office or whatever and you don't want to approach him when he's on the phone or extremely busy, that's when you talk to their admin or have your admin talk to their admin and find out a pocket of time where you can approach them and ask your questions.
00:10:20.851 --> 00:10:27.355
That's great, it's great advice, so important though, right Like obviously be nice to everyone, right, absolutely yeah.
00:10:27.416 --> 00:10:28.018
It'll come back.
00:10:28.018 --> 00:10:35.849
First of all, if you have issues with your admin or other staff, it probably will come up in your reviews, which maybe we'll talk about later.
00:10:35.849 --> 00:10:42.076
But you want to give a good impression, and treating people nicely and with respect is going to go a long way.
00:10:42.716 --> 00:10:43.806
Absolutely Well.
00:10:43.806 --> 00:10:44.488
Thank you All right.
00:10:44.488 --> 00:10:47.176
So I guess we should talk about the work part of this right.
00:10:47.176 --> 00:10:52.154
So doing work, getting assignments, that's a big part of the summer.
00:10:52.154 --> 00:10:56.929
The work summer associates do it's really the best way for attorneys to get to know them, isn't it?
00:10:56.929 --> 00:10:57.009
The?
00:10:57.029 --> 00:10:58.511
work summer associates do.
00:10:58.511 --> 00:11:01.355
It's really the best way for attorneys to get to know them, isn't it?
00:11:01.355 --> 00:11:04.461
Yeah, so it's really how you're graded throughout the summer.
00:11:04.461 --> 00:11:06.464
Right, so you have good grades.
00:11:06.464 --> 00:11:10.368
You did great in your interview.
00:11:10.368 --> 00:11:15.365
That gets your foot in the door, but having a good summer and delivering good work product consistently is going to be what gets you the offer at the end of the summer.
00:11:15.626 --> 00:11:19.136
So definitely focus on the things that you can control.
00:11:19.136 --> 00:11:20.610
I can speak for our firm.
00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:26.817
There are research assignments and then sometimes you're drafting motions or contracts.
00:11:26.817 --> 00:11:41.671
You will get work that is similar to what a first-year associate gets and nobody's expecting you to be the next great legal mind in your first 10 weeks at the firm and drafting amicus briefs and things like that.
00:11:41.671 --> 00:11:50.775
But you are expected to control the things that you can control, for example, typos and clear, concise writing in grammar.
00:11:50.775 --> 00:11:52.745
Those are the things that you can control.
00:11:52.745 --> 00:12:06.878
So when you're done drafting something, always take a couple of minutes or however long it takes to proofread what you're submitting, because after reading something a bunch of times as you're drafting it, your eyes could glaze over and miss things.
00:12:06.878 --> 00:12:11.653
So if you just take those couple of minutes to do one last proofread before submitting it.
00:12:11.653 --> 00:12:14.278
You could improve your work quality.
00:12:14.985 --> 00:12:20.437
Absolutely, and if it's the right kind of document, go to your administrative assistant and say, hey, can you proof this for me?
00:12:21.326 --> 00:12:24.395
Yes, they're there to help, and those are the things that they can definitely help with.
00:12:24.884 --> 00:12:26.956
And I think that the point you're making right.
00:12:26.956 --> 00:12:39.315
It's the thing you can control, but it's also the thing that more junior either law clerks or associates that's what more senior folks depend on them for is making sure the citations are right, that the grammar is good, that there are no typos.
00:12:39.315 --> 00:12:43.190
It's that tightening up piece that that's what you're supposed to help with.
00:12:43.731 --> 00:12:44.654
Right, absolutely.
00:12:45.686 --> 00:12:49.397
So what are some sort of tips from you for handling assignments?
00:12:49.945 --> 00:12:53.833
So the number one would be to be open to receiving them.
00:12:53.833 --> 00:12:55.096
Have your door open.
00:12:55.096 --> 00:12:59.368
You know people will pop in and just come in and say, hey, do you have five minutes?
00:12:59.368 --> 00:13:01.073
And they'll start talking to you about a legal issue.
00:13:01.073 --> 00:13:03.951
They might call you, they might email you ahead of time.
00:13:03.951 --> 00:13:10.755
They might go through an associate that they work with if it's coming from a partner for them to come give you an assignment.
00:13:10.755 --> 00:13:14.870
But be open to receiving the assignment and don't say no.
00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:18.998
If you could control it, say yes, but or yes.
00:13:18.998 --> 00:13:22.135
And if you have multiple deadlines, that you might be juggling.
00:13:22.135 --> 00:13:24.969
And that goes back to what we said in the beginning, which is communicate.
00:13:24.969 --> 00:13:26.777
That's what we mean by communicate.
00:13:26.777 --> 00:13:31.476
They say I need this by Wednesday, but you have another assignment that's due Wednesday.
00:13:31.476 --> 00:13:36.409
Explain that to them, say I'd love to help you with this, but I'm dealing with this other deadline.
00:13:36.409 --> 00:13:37.692
Is there any flexibility?
00:13:37.692 --> 00:13:41.379
Or should I go back to the first attorney and talk to them about it?
00:13:41.379 --> 00:13:45.874
And most of the times, the deadlines that you're given over the summer are flexible.
00:13:45.874 --> 00:13:51.817
It's not like there's a filing deadline and they're relying on you as the last degree of defense to get this done on time.
00:13:51.817 --> 00:13:58.318
So you're important to the process, but keep in mind that most deadlines you get are somewhat flexible.
00:13:58.318 --> 00:14:00.370
So that would be number one.
00:14:00.705 --> 00:14:04.917
The second thing we kind of touched on it before is make sure you understand the assignment.
00:14:04.917 --> 00:14:07.953
Ask questions like what format would you like?
00:14:07.953 --> 00:14:09.370
Would you like a memo?
00:14:09.370 --> 00:14:11.410
Would you like bullet points?
00:14:11.410 --> 00:14:20.506
Would you like an email with some case law, with some parentheticals, email with some case law with some parentheticals.
00:14:20.506 --> 00:14:37.692
And what I find useful in understanding the assignment is taking notes while they're talking to you about the issue and what they need, and then try parroting it back to them, repeating back what they say to you and put your understanding on it to make sure that both of your understandings of what they're looking for is the same.
00:14:37.692 --> 00:14:43.066
And that will help when you're a day or two into the assignment and you know you're on the right track.
00:14:43.066 --> 00:14:51.655
And then also I touched on this earlier which is the last thing was, if you have a couple of days or a week to do an assignment, take the time.
00:14:51.655 --> 00:14:58.826
If you have questions, ask the questions and make sure that what you're delivering is a good final finished product.
00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:00.832
Yeah, and I think that's a good point.
00:15:00.832 --> 00:15:08.245
You made a couple of good ones, especially at the end, to make sure it's a good product, something you'd be proud to turn in right.
00:15:08.245 --> 00:15:10.918
Don't rush it and ask those follow up questions.
00:15:10.918 --> 00:15:21.852
I can't tell you, andrew, the number of times people have said, well, I don't want to go, bother the person, but it's not a bother, because we want you to get it right, right, and we want it to be right.
00:15:21.852 --> 00:15:24.398
So that's, it's a communication, isn't it?
00:15:24.945 --> 00:15:26.067
Absolutely Yep.
00:15:26.067 --> 00:15:33.388
And it won't stop with really every lawyer, and it's a continuation from your summer to your 40th year in practice.
00:15:33.388 --> 00:15:37.254
I I'm convinced that it'll always be this way to the practice of law.
00:15:37.855 --> 00:15:38.515
I think so too.
00:15:38.515 --> 00:15:39.756
That's why we call it a practice.
00:15:39.756 --> 00:15:40.979
I'm convinced that it'll always be this way.
00:15:40.979 --> 00:15:41.880
It's the practice of law.
00:15:41.880 --> 00:15:42.240
I think so too.
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:43.101
That's why we call it a practice.
00:15:43.101 --> 00:15:44.144
Right, and that's it.
00:15:44.144 --> 00:15:56.187
And also I think it goes back to here using your resources, if you're really stuck or if you're really not sure all those people that are around you that you mentioned before, starting with your peers or the junior associates or whomever else go talk to them.
00:15:56.187 --> 00:16:00.230
Great, yeah, it takes a minute, I think, but then people can get into it.
00:16:00.230 --> 00:16:01.533
So we just have to.
00:16:01.533 --> 00:16:07.758
I feel like there's not enough times we can say if you have a deadline and you haven't communicated, you need another one.
00:16:07.758 --> 00:16:11.041
That deadline matters, right, you have to meet that.
00:16:11.041 --> 00:16:12.522
It's an expectation, isn't it?
00:16:15.004 --> 00:16:16.354
It's an expectation and it's important.
00:16:16.354 --> 00:16:19.990
And also some attorneys will give you an assignment and not specify a deadline.
00:16:19.990 --> 00:16:22.596
You should ask for one for a couple of reasons.
00:16:22.596 --> 00:16:26.652
Number one they might not have realized that they didn't give you a deadline.
00:16:26.652 --> 00:16:46.317
But also it keeps you and your work schedule organized in a way, so you know if you, if you, don't have a deadline on one assignment and then you get a second assignment that is more time sensitive, you might end up juggling multiple work assignments and it's just better to have clear, defined guidelines for your work assignments.
00:16:46.317 --> 00:17:03.518
But also this goes back to things you could control and it's a reflection of your time management skills and your ability to handle multiple tasks, which is ultimately what we look for in young attorneys at Bond and really what I imagine most law firms are looking for.
00:17:03.518 --> 00:17:10.647
So your ability to take in work assignments and meet the deadlines that were set is a huge component of your success.
00:17:11.609 --> 00:17:12.211
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:12.211 --> 00:17:15.988
Any legal employer wants to know that you can handle what's going to be coming at you.
00:17:15.988 --> 00:17:20.296
You'd mentioned briefly reviews or, however, feedback.
00:17:20.296 --> 00:17:21.857
You know there's a little bit of something.
00:17:21.857 --> 00:17:27.075
It's not such a formal process as it is when people are, you know, full-time employees.
00:17:27.075 --> 00:17:39.694
But if you do all those things right, if you meet deadlines, if you, you know, try to control for typos, if you ask about the formatting, that means you can have a really good conversation with positive feedback, doesn't it?
00:17:40.214 --> 00:17:53.794
Yes, absolutely, and feedback is important and I know that everyone wants it, but it's also important to know that not all attorneys are great teachers and sometimes they don't realize that they're giving.
00:17:53.794 --> 00:17:59.876
Feedback is important and it's okay to ask for feedback, but also there are other ways to get feedback.
00:17:59.876 --> 00:18:03.912
You can look at the final product that's delivered to the client.
00:18:03.912 --> 00:18:10.652
Or I know in our firm we save new versions of documents so you could run a red line and see the changes that were made.
00:18:10.652 --> 00:18:20.291
You could follow up in a week or two when you see that person in the elevator or in the kitchenette and say, hey, what did the client end up deciding to do with this issue?
00:18:20.291 --> 00:18:24.967
Or that research makes sense or really anything to elicit some kind of feedback.
00:18:25.568 --> 00:18:29.857
And I also find that sometimes not receiving feedback is a good thing.
00:18:29.857 --> 00:18:31.128
It means you did a good job.
00:18:31.128 --> 00:18:44.618
And throughout the summer here we do have set times in the middle of the summer and then again at the end of the summer for a more formal feedback process, and that mirrors closely what we do for associates.
00:18:44.618 --> 00:18:57.470
We have the end of the year review process, so that's a period of time where you get more formal feedback and we send out messages to all of the attorneys that you've worked with and ask them for feedback, so you will get it.
00:18:57.470 --> 00:19:05.582
But if you're craving more than that or you want a little bit more reassurance, feel free to find ways to ask for it.
00:19:06.425 --> 00:19:07.987
Right, so we have those evaluations.
00:19:07.987 --> 00:19:21.855
But if you're looking for day to day feedback here or really anywhere where you're working with lawyers, please don't take it personally when they don't stop and have time for that, because sometimes they just don't have time or they're not thinking about it, so no one should read too much into that.
00:19:21.855 --> 00:19:23.585
So you think Right, right.
00:19:24.707 --> 00:19:24.967
All right.
00:19:24.967 --> 00:19:30.997
So the summer is a good chance, I would say, to observe how attorneys work and the legal process.
00:19:30.997 --> 00:19:35.022
Chance, I would say, to observe how attorneys work and the legal process.
00:19:35.022 --> 00:19:41.256
So it may sound simple, but should summer associates pay attention to, like, the style of how people work, the time people are in the office, how matters develop?
00:19:41.256 --> 00:19:43.224
Is this a period where they can kind of observe that?
00:19:43.224 --> 00:19:44.829
Is it a discovery phase for them?
00:19:45.772 --> 00:19:53.367
I think that observation is like one of the most valuable tools that you could use to learn from older and more experienced attorneys.
00:19:53.367 --> 00:19:56.155
You will have opportunities to shadow here.
00:19:56.155 --> 00:20:15.435
You could go to court with them, go to client events, just simply sit in on conference calls with opposing counsel or with clients and you can learn how attorneys phrase certain things, how they pause on the phone to elicit a response small things like that and if you're not paying attention to it, you can miss it.
00:20:15.435 --> 00:20:19.796
But that's a huge part of how we learn as lawyers is we learn from other lawyers.
00:20:19.796 --> 00:20:25.817
So it's, in my opinion, a huge aspect of learning throughout your summer is observe around you.
00:20:25.817 --> 00:20:28.050
When are the other attorneys coming into the office?
00:20:28.050 --> 00:20:29.977
How are they interacting with their admin?
00:20:29.977 --> 00:20:32.994
What kind of assignments are they asking their admin to do for them?
00:20:32.994 --> 00:20:38.278
How do they interact with other attorneys in the firm and externally and paralegals?
00:20:38.278 --> 00:20:42.656
Those things are very important to learning how to succeed here.
00:20:43.484 --> 00:20:46.085
Yeah, I think that's great advice, and great advice for anyone right.
00:20:46.085 --> 00:21:00.578
We started as an apprenticeship model profession and that's why we call it a practice Right, because you're always trying to get better, just like an athlete would watch tapes or, you know, watch practice like breaking down the film.
00:21:01.005 --> 00:21:02.448
Yes, breaking down Exactly.
00:21:02.448 --> 00:21:10.814
It's kind of you get to do that a little bit in real time to see how other people are doing it, and then you can figure out how that works for you.
00:21:10.814 --> 00:21:13.028
I think that's great advice.
00:21:13.028 --> 00:21:15.614
All right, so one more last topic.
00:21:15.614 --> 00:21:23.134
Everyone's least favorite word, I think, when you're talking to law students besides final exam, is networking.
00:21:23.134 --> 00:21:27.951
Networking within your firm or your office is really important over the summer, isn't it?
00:21:28.834 --> 00:21:33.188
I think it's very important is really important over the summer, isn't it?
00:21:33.188 --> 00:21:33.769
I think it's very important.
00:21:33.769 --> 00:21:34.912
So we do a lot of fun things over the summer.
00:21:34.912 --> 00:21:42.955
There are a lot of happy hours or get togethers outside of work, and I think that this is one of the more underrated ways to generate more assignments at work.
00:21:42.955 --> 00:21:49.694
So, for example, we had a welcome reception on the first day for our summer law clerk.
00:21:50.256 --> 00:22:03.667
And I stress to them you know, socialize, meet partners, ask them what they do, because once they start talking about what they do, it gives you an opportunity to find things that you might find interesting or not and say, hey, I'd like to experience that.
00:22:03.667 --> 00:22:12.472
I'm rotating through this practice area or department, but if you have anything interesting that you would need some help on, I'm available for assignments.
00:22:12.472 --> 00:22:23.430
And when attorneys can put a face to your name, everyone gets emails ahead of time that we have summer law clerks coming get your assignments together.
00:22:23.430 --> 00:22:37.667
But when an attorney meets you in person and sees that you're interested in their area of law or just in getting assignments in general, it gives them that extra motivation, that kick to give you an assignment and follow through and perhaps give you some feedback and if you do a nice job.
00:22:37.667 --> 00:22:42.489
You might get some more follow-up assignments and be able to follow the case or matter along.
00:22:43.292 --> 00:22:45.381
Yeah, that's great, I mean, I think that's really important.
00:22:45.381 --> 00:22:49.409
So it's networking with the attorneys and, of course, the staff, as we've mentioned, and getting to know them.
00:22:49.409 --> 00:22:55.757
But it's also, if you happen to have, like our summer class, a whole class of people, a group of people.
00:22:55.757 --> 00:22:58.279
It's important to get to know them too, isn't it?
00:22:59.401 --> 00:23:00.021
Absolutely.
00:23:00.021 --> 00:23:05.738
So your class becomes somewhat of like I started with eight associates.
00:23:05.738 --> 00:23:14.931
Some of us are still at the firm and there's this camaraderie where you could go to that person and talk to them about anything when it comes to the firm.
00:23:14.931 --> 00:23:18.174
So they're going through the same process you are.
00:23:18.174 --> 00:23:21.996
They could be a resource to you and you could be a resource to them.
00:23:21.996 --> 00:23:25.355
And I find it very helpful to start a chat.
00:23:25.355 --> 00:23:38.508
We have teams, but I'm sure most firms have some form of a chatting application and create a group chat and talk about things, talk about assignments, talk about I mentioned dress code earlier, but it's actually serious.
00:23:38.567 --> 00:23:39.971
Everyone has that question right.
00:23:39.971 --> 00:23:41.596
So we're going to a firm event.
00:23:41.596 --> 00:23:43.429
All the summer law clerks are invited.
00:23:43.429 --> 00:23:45.051
What do I wear?
00:23:45.051 --> 00:23:49.630
That type of question still comes up for me in pretty much every event I go to.
00:23:49.630 --> 00:23:52.768
So questions like that are great for the group chat.
00:23:52.768 --> 00:23:57.397
Or there's a question that you might not want to go to your admin.
00:23:57.397 --> 00:23:59.829
Yet you start with your summer law clerk.
00:23:59.829 --> 00:24:06.750
So they are, like I said, going through the same process as you and it's helpful to form some friendships there.
00:24:07.612 --> 00:24:18.478
Absolutely, and this is all important, because the law can be stressful, it can be tough, but it's based on relationships, so it's important to build those, isn't it?
00:24:19.326 --> 00:24:27.209
Absolutely, and I mentioned earlier that one of the you know the biggest grade you're getting over the summer is your work assignments.
00:24:27.209 --> 00:24:36.393
But also, I think, an underrated aspect of how to succeed during your summer law clerk position is to get people to like you.
00:24:36.393 --> 00:24:42.211
And that's not to say you have to be on or like the most interesting person in the room.
00:24:42.211 --> 00:25:01.118
Just be yourself and be interested and show that you want to be there, because, ultimately, what you're here for, hopefully, is auditioning to be a first-year associate, and what I think we all want, and what you guys should want as summer law clerks, is to like the people you work with.
00:25:01.118 --> 00:25:09.267
Right, we spend a lot of time together in the office working together, so to the extent that you like each other, it makes things a little bit easier.
00:25:09.827 --> 00:25:10.328
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:10.328 --> 00:25:13.234
You want to be able to count on each other, right?
00:25:13.234 --> 00:25:16.307
That, like you're going to get your part done, I'll get my part done.
00:25:16.307 --> 00:25:21.057
And and, like you said, be yourself, right, don't try to be someone else.
00:25:21.057 --> 00:25:23.186
Don't try to, like you know, bring your whole self to work.
00:25:23.186 --> 00:25:27.913
But I think it is important to be that dependable person.
00:25:27.913 --> 00:25:33.468
Right, I'll say it're just a bunch of nerds, we're lawyers, right, we're interested in this stuff.
00:25:33.468 --> 00:25:42.737
So we want people who are curious and interested in it too and who want to have conversations about it and who are really interested in doing good work.
00:25:42.737 --> 00:25:48.443
Right, so we also will talk about sports and other things, and that'll come right.
00:25:48.443 --> 00:25:50.048
Those types of relationships will come.
00:25:50.048 --> 00:25:56.853
As you're working with people, you know, you'll like learn a little bit about each other, and that's what makes it interesting.
00:25:57.515 --> 00:25:58.699
Yeah, absolutely those are.
00:25:58.699 --> 00:26:07.727
You know, the water cooler conversations are important and the small talk and elevator up and that all helps putting a face to the name, like I mentioned earlier.
00:26:07.727 --> 00:26:10.051
So all of those little things are helpful.
00:26:10.532 --> 00:26:14.118
All right, so any sort of additional words of advice before we sign off?
00:26:15.846 --> 00:26:21.218
I would just keep in mind that while 10 weeks seems like a long time, it goes by very fast.
00:26:21.218 --> 00:26:25.112
So remember, you know the reason why you're here.
00:26:25.112 --> 00:26:40.314
Try to gain as much experience as you can, put your best foot forward, because before you know it, you're pivoting and you're going back to finish your last year of law school or, if you're a 1L law clerk, you're heading into your 2L year, which is, for many, a really tough time.
00:26:40.314 --> 00:26:44.430
So enjoy it and try to get what you can out of the experience.
00:26:45.111 --> 00:26:45.613
That's great.
00:26:45.613 --> 00:26:46.675
Thank you so much, andrew.
00:26:46.675 --> 00:26:49.853
Thanks for joining us today and for the fantastic advice.
00:26:49.853 --> 00:27:00.712
Also, thank you for all of the really great firm service that you do for Bond with this summer class and in so many other ways, for saying yes so often when we call on you.
00:27:00.712 --> 00:27:02.135
So thank you very much.
00:27:02.656 --> 00:27:06.346
I hope you'll come back soon and maybe talk about financial restructuring.
00:27:06.346 --> 00:27:07.909
I would be happy to do that.
00:27:08.368 --> 00:27:09.630
All right, terrific, thank you.
00:27:09.630 --> 00:27:16.476
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond.
00:27:16.476 --> 00:27:23.760
If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybondbskcom.
00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:29.306
Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded.
00:27:29.306 --> 00:27:31.048
Until our next talk, be well.
00:27:35.972 --> 00:27:40.678
Bond, schenick and King has prepared this communication to present only general information.
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This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such.
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You should not act or decline to act based upon the contents.
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While we try to make sure that the information is complete and accurate, laws can change quickly.
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You should always formally engage a lawyer of your choosing before taking actions which have legal consequences.
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For information about our communication, firm practice areas and attorneys, visit our website bskcom.
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This is attorney advertising.
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