Analyst Talk - Matt Sessions - The Underlying Causes Analyst

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Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
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It's like coffee with an analyst,
or it could be whiskey with an
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analyst reading a spreadsheet,
linking crime events, identifying a
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series, and getting the latest scoop
on association news and training.
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So please don't beat that analyst
and join us as we define the law
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enforcement analysis profession.
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One episode at a time.
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Thank you for joining me.
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I hope many aspects of
your life are progressing.
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My name is Jason Elder and today
our guest has 10 years of police
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department experience with zero
years of law enforcement analysis
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experience, but he plays one at work.
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He is currently the learning and research
consultant for Cambridge Center for
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Evidence-Based Policing in the uk.
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He also spent time as the problem
solving tactical advisor to both
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Warwickshire Police and sre.
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Police department.
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He holds a Master's of science and
forensic psychology from the University
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of Kent here to talk about, among other
things, of course, problem solving.
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Please welcome Matt Sessions.
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Matt, how are we doing?
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Excellent.
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Thanks for having me here today, Jason.
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And how is the UK these days?
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It's pretty good.
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It's pretty, I suppose it
depends how you look at it.
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Turbulent, I mean, politics.
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I, I suppose we shouldn't
maybe get onto that already.
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Politics in the uk maybe Politics in
America are both turbulent times, I'd say.
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All right, well, hey, I, I you
ask that question, you never
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know what answer you get.
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We could be just like old men and
talk about the weather, but yeah,
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you can always talk about politics
and it's always a turbulent topic.
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Definitely.
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And it's funny you should say that
about the weather because just
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a few hours ago, my own father.
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Sent me a text saying, I've got
a weather warning for your area.
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I live nowhere near him and he
has weather warnings on his app
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for my area, just so he can update
me to talk about the weather.
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So I think he'd love to be joining
in that conversation., It is
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funny how that becomes a topic
of conversation as you get older.
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So,
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all right.
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For our listeners, of course Matt
is not my typical guest that I have
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on the show, but as I mentioned
that he has had a career in problem
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solving and we have not had.
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An opportunity, I guess, to
talk about problem oriented
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policing in quite some time.
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So I thought he was a, a perfect
guest to have on here to give
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us a different perspective.
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So.
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Alright, Matt, first, how did
you discover problem solving?
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I mean, it kind of just
fell upon me really.
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I mean, I guess if I go back to my
education and where that came from.
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Studied as you said, psychology
and then forensic psychology at the
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University of Kent in the United Kingdom.
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After that I was kind of looking
around what will I do next?
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Do I, do I do the doctorate or
a, or a PhD? Do I just continue
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being the forever student?
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At that point I was kind of thinking,
okay, do you know what I want
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to just start working somewhere?
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And because I'd studied forensic
psychology and my interest around
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that, I guess I was kind of naturally
drawn to whether it's working in a
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prison or a secure unit or within
some form of criminal justice.
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So naturally it's not surprising
that I probably looked at policing.
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I did actually sign up to alerts to, to
get on the fast track scheme, which I
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dunno if you have an equivalent in, in the
states whereby you'd start as a constable
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but sort of receive extra additional
training and have to do extra project
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work to progress to the rank of inspector.
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Sort of quite quickly.
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But after almost immediately it seems,
I hope that wasn't the reason why me
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applying for it, why they pulled it.
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But within a few about a month
or two, they they pulled that
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scheme or paused it at least.
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So I thought, okay, I'm gonna
need to do something else.
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Maybe I won't, won't be an officer.
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And I basically found the first job
I could find that was in policing it
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was working in Intel as a processor.
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I didn't really know
what any of that meant.
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I didn't know the world
of policing at all.
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I started in that and I did that
for a year and I really struggled.
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And that's probably the closest role I'd
have to a lot of your listeners, I guess,
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working in Intel as a, as a processor.
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The reason I really struggled with it was
because I was just processing information.
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You receive a call, someone
smells drugs next door.
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Some other piece of intel.
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You sanitize it, you put it on the
system, data input, data entry.
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You share it with the right people
to make sure the right people get it,
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and then you move on to the next one.
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And you go home at the end
of the day and guess what?
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You're coming back in the next day.
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And there's a whole load
of more data to process.
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And I think I really struggled
with that because you couldn't
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really put your own spin on it.
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You couldn't do much with it.
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There weren't many
opportunities to develop.
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So I kind of tried to take on
some extracurricular projects.
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I think I remember I was doing one
project supporting someone with their
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master's actually around domestic
abuse and restorative justice.
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That involved me calling up
suspects and offenders of.
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Of domestic abuse and asking them
questions around restorative justice.
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So that was quite eye-opening.
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I think someone sort of full-time
student up until this point coming in
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and, and then trying to sort of expand
my learning and knowledge a little
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bit and having to call up offenders,
having just sat in a backroom office
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job effectively processing data.
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So doing that kind of thing started to
open me up to, to different opportunities.
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And then I moved on to
a safeguarding role.
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I thought it was gonna
be a lot more exciting.
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Mm-hmm.
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I thought that I was gonna be triaging
with multi agencies all around and
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we'd be making decisions about risk
and what we would do around vulnerable
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adults and children that police were
coming into contact with and working
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with statutory agencies in the uk.
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So your children's services, adult social
care people that work in mental health.
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I thought it was gonna be this
exciting job and it turned out
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that scratched a little bit beneath
the surface and it was exactly the
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same job that I just come from in.
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Instead of processing Intel
reports, so someone saying there's
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some smell of drugs next door.
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I was processing child and
adult vulnerability reports.
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So the officers would come into contact
with the child, they would submit the
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report, it would explain what happened.
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I was, add a bit extra to it, do a
little bit of research on the system
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to add some extra clarity, share it
with the relevant partner agency,
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and never hear about it again.
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And I, again, really struggled with
that because I was back in that same
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situation about not being able to add
much value or the value that I was adding.
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I didn't feel like it was hugely
contributing or making a difference.
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So again, what did I do?
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I started looking around for other
things to do, other opportunities
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within my role and, and to sort of
do project work and develop how we
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do things and make, make it better.
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And one thing that I'd noticed which
is really the, the prelude if you like,
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to me getting in, into, into problem
solving was that consistently when
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we would complete these referrals, I
would see that other referrals had been
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generated but hadn't come via our team.
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And our team was this central team,
if you like, that all of these
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referrals should come through and we
would then have the responsibility of
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sharing them with the right agencies.
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But I would see that lots of them would
come in, hadn't been shared and to a
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lot of the department, if I'm being
honest, it was a sort of, well that's
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that extra, that's not part of our job.
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To, to question that or to
ask why that that happens.
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It, it just happens.
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Sometimes they don't come to us and I
can leave that where it is because my
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job is to go through these reports that
I get given at the start of the day.
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I get through them and I
start again the next day.
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But to me.
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I found that incredibly infuriating.
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And when you would read through them and
then subsequently share them, you would
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sometimes find so much risk And concerning
things like, for example, let's say an
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officer goes out and there's a child
who's self-harming and has been suicidal.
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And naturally we complete a referral
as police officers to make sure that
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other agencies who have a responsibility
get that information and can act and
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safeguard that child well what if
that referral got lost in the system?
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Obviously the, the sort of negatives
of that, the, the, the worst
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case scenario are pretty dire.
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And there are many that will
fall through the cracks and won't
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get picked up on until something
really significant happens.
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So that really didn't sit very well with
me, so I would regularly pick up on these.
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So the point that I said to my
a, a, a department lead we really
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ought to do something about this.
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Do you mind if I have some extra
time to, you know one day a week
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or something to, to look through
these and, and work out the extent
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to which this is actually a problem?
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That was kind of a phrase that
that we would use in in the uk.
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I dunno if it would translate poo-pooed.
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It sounds, it sounds
very English, doesn't it?
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It sounds so English.
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It was poo-pooed.
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It was put down as as, as the reason was
that was we have enough work already.
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Why do we want to give us more work?
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So a little bit of time went by
and I asked again, except this
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time I didn't ask the same person.
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I asked my immediate line manager and
my immediate line manager was someone
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who was very blue, very analytically
minded, very logical thinker who
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said, well, lay it out for me.
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What's the kind of case for this?
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And when I did that, he said.
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That makes complete sense
that we should do that.
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Okay.
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Why don't you just spend X amount of
time over the next month doing this and
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then we'll take it together to, to the
bosses and I'll kind of back you on it.
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So I did this work and I found that
9% of every single one of those
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referrals that was completed that should
have come to us, never came to us.
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So that's almost one in 10 of these
potentially really risky piece of
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information never coming to us.
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So as a result of that, we raised
it up the flag power, if you like.
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I then put recommendations in
place how we might change that to
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eradicate that issue and stop it
from happening to protect people.
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That got implemented.
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We checked to make sure that
it was having the right effect.
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There was also a safety net just
in case things slipped through.
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And at the end of it I. Basically
hadn't realized that I'd sort of been
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problem solving, and I only realized
that I'd been problem solving when I
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found out what problem solving was,
which is when I applied for a problem
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solving tactical advisor role thinking
that that job title sounds pretty cool.
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And, and when I gave them that as an
example in my interview, they said
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to me, you are a problem solver.
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You just don't realize it yet.
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Which I thought that sounds a pretty
good feedback to get on the interview.
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Saying is the job title is problem
solving tactical advisor, but I still
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don't exactly know or understand or
appreciate what exactly they're saying.
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It's probably only now in
retrospect that I realize I
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really was doing it not as well.
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Undoubtedly as I, as I maybe think I could
do it now with a bit more experience.
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I was probably just playing at it.
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But that kind of led me to
the world of problem solving.
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Yeah, so, well, it fits the theme, right?
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You, you're an analyst,
you just don't know it.
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You, you're a problem solver.
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You just don't know it.
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As I listen to your story,
I think it's fascinating.
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How just different folks are and how
different people's journeys can be,
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because there's certain people that
get into a job like that, that's
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very clerical, very straightforward,
and they're as happy as a clam to
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sit there and do the, tasks that you
were describing there, where it was
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just data entry or just, you know.
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Making sure that certain reports get
to the certain, certain places or
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just to stay in the lane that you
were hired to do and then mm-hmm.
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There's nothing wrong with that per
se, but I think with analyst, with
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problem solvers, there is something
there that it's I don't know if it's
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a free spirit type of thing or what,
but it's something that, as you
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mentioned, it doesn't sit well and you
just can't sit still and just take it.
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Right.
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For a lack of a better, better term.
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., Do you feel that you were
always this way even growing up?
229
00:11:31,531 --> 00:11:32,341
I think so.
230
00:11:32,341 --> 00:11:34,561
Now you're saying that,
now I'm thinking back.
231
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Mm-hmm.
232
00:11:34,991 --> 00:11:35,501
I, I think so.
233
00:11:35,501 --> 00:11:40,361
I think it's kind of born out of
this pure, purely logic driven.
234
00:11:41,391 --> 00:11:44,121
Kind of personality and way of
seeing the world, just as you've
235
00:11:44,121 --> 00:11:47,931
described in terms of the not happy
and content staying in your lane.
236
00:11:48,351 --> 00:11:51,111
There's something about,
there's a logical way, there's
237
00:11:51,111 --> 00:11:52,731
a better way to be doing this.
238
00:11:52,791 --> 00:11:54,411
Why shouldn't we be doing this?
239
00:11:54,411 --> 00:11:57,541
Which I think for those people that
have it and have that view of the world.
240
00:11:57,946 --> 00:12:01,906
They find it incomprehensible that other
people don't have that view of the world.
241
00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:07,066
It's, it's impossible to put yourself in
in someone else's shoes and, and sit there
242
00:12:07,066 --> 00:12:08,776
and go, how would you be happy with that?
243
00:12:08,776 --> 00:12:11,926
And, and obviously people
are completely entitled to be
244
00:12:11,926 --> 00:12:13,576
happy with, with doing that.
245
00:12:13,576 --> 00:12:16,676
There are more things important
things in this world than work.
246
00:12:16,801 --> 00:12:19,671
In particular, I think that's something
I probably struggle with being able
247
00:12:19,671 --> 00:12:21,201
to switch off from problem solving.
248
00:12:21,571 --> 00:12:24,631
And, and that's a, that's one issue
I think when you get into this world
249
00:12:24,631 --> 00:12:28,361
and you see everything through the
lens of, of causes and, and, and
250
00:12:28,361 --> 00:12:30,001
different ways of doing things.
251
00:12:30,431 --> 00:12:33,011
You can't stop but see it
in everything that you do.
252
00:12:33,011 --> 00:12:37,211
Whether I'm like driving along the road
and see a sign written in a certain way,
253
00:12:37,211 --> 00:12:38,831
and it just makes me think about this.
254
00:12:38,831 --> 00:12:41,171
I think it's innate and it's interesting.
255
00:12:41,231 --> 00:12:45,971
I mean, skipping along quite a bit
already, but I've had conversations with
256
00:12:45,971 --> 00:12:49,181
people around problem solving before
where I've kind of debated and said,
257
00:12:49,511 --> 00:12:51,581
can we really give this to the masses?
258
00:12:51,821 --> 00:12:54,101
Is it accessible enough to the masses?
259
00:12:54,131 --> 00:12:56,771
Should we get everyone
involved in doing this?
260
00:12:56,771 --> 00:13:00,126
And I, I speak to some people
that say, oh, Matt, we have
261
00:13:00,126 --> 00:13:01,746
to, it's the right thing to do.
262
00:13:01,746 --> 00:13:04,476
We have to, and I say, I know
it's the perfect idyllic world.
263
00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:08,226
And these problem oriented forces
where everyone gets it, everyone
264
00:13:08,226 --> 00:13:11,196
feeds into it perfectly and
everyone gets their, their role.
265
00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:13,956
But whether or not actually
everyone is, is built that way
266
00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:15,336
or has, that way of thinking.
267
00:13:15,366 --> 00:13:17,856
You don't need to all have
that perfect way of thinking.
268
00:13:17,856 --> 00:13:21,466
Of course there are different
roles for people to play, but it's
269
00:13:21,466 --> 00:13:24,296
something that I've definitely
struggle with at times where you're
270
00:13:24,296 --> 00:13:25,796
trying to get the masses to do it.
271
00:13:25,796 --> 00:13:29,726
And, and not everyone can quite see the
perspective, the way that you can see it.
272
00:13:29,846 --> 00:13:32,241
Yeah, it definitely is a mindset.
273
00:13:32,241 --> 00:13:34,341
I, think of my own career.
274
00:13:35,231 --> 00:13:42,531
Looking back and once I got into the
role of an analyst, I actually found I
275
00:13:42,531 --> 00:13:49,601
was gravitating towards process, process
improvement, data improvement, and my,
276
00:13:49,601 --> 00:13:53,001
career has, gone more along the lines of.
277
00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:59,106
A data analyst and managing data as
opposed to some of the other avenues
278
00:13:59,376 --> 00:14:03,006
that an analyst can go at, whether
it's problem solving or tactical.
279
00:14:03,006 --> 00:14:09,966
Strategic, . But , for me, it was this
idea of like, well, this data flow
280
00:14:09,966 --> 00:14:14,976
is horrible and I, I can't, I, it is,
it, it is something inside me that
281
00:14:14,976 --> 00:14:16,566
says, like, I, I wanna improve it.
282
00:14:16,566 --> 00:14:18,336
Like, it shouldn't be this hard.
283
00:14:18,336 --> 00:14:23,106
So we, we have to spend time of
thinking of the best ways to improve.
284
00:14:23,286 --> 00:14:26,886
And I, I think in a way, if I'm
hearing you correct, I think that's
285
00:14:27,056 --> 00:14:31,066
the similar path where you landed,
where you got into a role and
286
00:14:31,066 --> 00:14:34,606
thought, well there's definitely
gotta be a better way to do business.
287
00:14:34,666 --> 00:14:35,176
Definitely.
288
00:14:35,176 --> 00:14:39,466
And I think the way that you've explained
that there, I think if I hadn't fallen
289
00:14:39,466 --> 00:14:43,576
into that, that role that had appeared at
that time, at a time where I was probably.
290
00:14:43,811 --> 00:14:47,321
Desperate for a different
role to get me excited.
291
00:14:47,321 --> 00:14:47,411
Mm-hmm.
292
00:14:47,921 --> 00:14:51,941
I think it could have been anything,
and I would've found a way of making
293
00:14:51,941 --> 00:14:55,366
it like that, whether it could have
had nothing to do with, with problem
294
00:14:55,366 --> 00:14:59,026
oriented policing, but that logical,
that process, like you said, whether
295
00:14:59,026 --> 00:15:02,106
it was, if it was, I could have fallen
into exactly the same role role, what
296
00:15:02,106 --> 00:15:05,491
that you described around improving
data quality because it made sense.
297
00:15:05,491 --> 00:15:08,041
Why are we not improving this?
298
00:15:08,171 --> 00:15:11,231
Because you can see that the, the
benefits that it could have, finding
299
00:15:11,231 --> 00:15:15,611
ways of improving that, making it
more usable, could, I could have
300
00:15:15,611 --> 00:15:20,051
potentially got just the same joy out
of that as preventing loads of crime.
301
00:15:20,111 --> 00:15:23,711
And that's something I think I, I I
sometimes talk to people about that.
302
00:15:23,711 --> 00:15:28,641
I, you can sometimes struggle with
mentally the kind of self-reflection
303
00:15:28,641 --> 00:15:32,661
of do I, do I do problem oriented
policing because it's the right thing
304
00:15:32,661 --> 00:15:35,721
to do by the communities because
it's going to result in less crime?
305
00:15:35,961 --> 00:15:37,161
Or do I do it because it just.
306
00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:38,836
Damn logical sense.
307
00:15:39,226 --> 00:15:41,956
Like we should just definitely
be doing it this way.
308
00:15:41,986 --> 00:15:45,226
The alternative is not as
good simply, simply speaking.
309
00:15:45,616 --> 00:15:48,496
And I think that's, I, I've, I've
come to accept that that's okay.
310
00:15:48,766 --> 00:15:51,586
It's okay for me to think that,
do you know what we should
311
00:15:51,586 --> 00:15:52,906
all be doing problem solving?
312
00:15:53,146 --> 00:15:54,976
Because it's the best way of working.
313
00:15:54,976 --> 00:15:56,476
It's effective and it's efficient.
314
00:15:56,656 --> 00:16:02,096
Not just because I have some deep thing
within me that says I need to give
315
00:16:02,096 --> 00:16:06,446
back to my community and I have to do
something that is fulfilling and protect
316
00:16:06,446 --> 00:16:08,306
people that can, that can be part of it.
317
00:16:08,306 --> 00:16:10,256
And I can feel good about
that when that happens.
318
00:16:10,256 --> 00:16:13,256
But as, as you've kind of pointed
out there, that I could have, I
319
00:16:13,256 --> 00:16:17,356
could have potentially like yourself,
maybe pointed that, that perspective
320
00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:21,256
at one of a number of jobs and, and
probably found the same internal joy at
321
00:16:21,526 --> 00:16:23,386
resolving problems, whether they were.
322
00:16:23,801 --> 00:16:26,351
Policing issues and crime
prevention or something.
323
00:16:26,651 --> 00:16:27,611
Absolutely.
324
00:16:27,661 --> 00:16:30,211
Something logistical in a
private business, for example.
325
00:16:30,451 --> 00:16:30,721
Yeah.
326
00:16:31,221 --> 00:16:37,011
As you mentioned, you get the title,
you move on to being an actual
327
00:16:37,011 --> 00:16:42,371
problem solving tactical advisor
and this is right at March of 2020.
328
00:16:42,371 --> 00:16:45,041
So this is right on the brink of Yeah.
329
00:16:45,371 --> 00:16:46,211
Of COVID.
330
00:16:46,361 --> 00:16:54,551
And so I guess take us back to that
time, walking into the police department.
331
00:16:54,861 --> 00:17:00,801
And just how you felt,
what you experienced,
332
00:17:00,901 --> 00:17:05,071
I think it was obviously, given what
you just said, I mean, the worst time
333
00:17:05,071 --> 00:17:07,061
in history to create a new team, mm-hmm.
334
00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:10,341
It was the, it was the, it was the
first team in the force that we'd
335
00:17:10,346 --> 00:17:11,936
had dedicated to problem solving.
336
00:17:12,506 --> 00:17:16,616
I'd gone from always working in the
office to suddenly being given a laptop,
337
00:17:16,616 --> 00:17:20,561
not that we had laptops to start off
with, so we had to go into the office.
338
00:17:21,226 --> 00:17:25,156
But two of our small team had laptops,
so they worked from home and there was
339
00:17:25,156 --> 00:17:26,446
two of us that didn't have laptops.
340
00:17:26,446 --> 00:17:29,866
So we went into the office during
COVID and, and it was the two of us
341
00:17:29,866 --> 00:17:32,356
sat there and our boss, who was great.
342
00:17:32,696 --> 00:17:36,266
Our chief inspector at the time, mark
offered, who then went on, I, I believe
343
00:17:36,266 --> 00:17:40,066
he's now, whether his superintendent or
chief superintendent he was great except
344
00:17:40,126 --> 00:17:45,586
he was almost immediately seconded to
the, the forces' response to COVID.
345
00:17:45,586 --> 00:17:45,676
Mm-hmm.
346
00:17:46,171 --> 00:17:49,456
So it was kind of, okay, you
guys crack on and, and kind of
347
00:17:49,456 --> 00:17:50,746
do what you feel need to be done.
348
00:17:50,746 --> 00:17:54,076
Which, which in many ways was really
great because it gave us that freedom to
349
00:17:54,106 --> 00:17:58,486
read up on academic theory and understand
a bit more about what this whole world
350
00:17:58,486 --> 00:18:00,046
of problem oriented policing was.
351
00:18:00,346 --> 00:18:04,546
The, the challenge was that I was
having only worked in policing for about
352
00:18:04,546 --> 00:18:06,386
four years at that point and mm-hmm.
353
00:18:06,451 --> 00:18:08,236
And not within problem oriented policing.
354
00:18:08,536 --> 00:18:12,526
I was by far and away the, the senior
person in that team, because my
355
00:18:12,526 --> 00:18:17,296
colleague, who was in the same role was
an external candidate, so she came from.
356
00:18:17,526 --> 00:18:18,396
A different background.
357
00:18:18,396 --> 00:18:23,276
She was looking for a career change and
she joined knowing nothing about policing
358
00:18:23,456 --> 00:18:27,836
at all in terms of the culture and the,
the acronyms and the, the departments and
359
00:18:27,836 --> 00:18:32,246
the way things work, which looking back,
I think maybe I'm harsh about my first
360
00:18:32,246 --> 00:18:35,636
couple of roles, but in actual fact, I'd
have to just accept that I was young and
361
00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:39,086
it was the first couple of roles that
allowed me to understand the organization
362
00:18:39,086 --> 00:18:40,496
and the world of policing a bit better.
363
00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:45,256
But that meant I had a figuratively
speaking more senior role or there
364
00:18:45,256 --> 00:18:48,306
was a bit of responsibility there,
but, but to be honest, I didn't
365
00:18:48,306 --> 00:18:51,346
really feel like it because I didn't
know anything about this world.
366
00:18:51,346 --> 00:18:53,506
So we kind of just jumbled it together.
367
00:18:53,826 --> 00:18:56,166
Put together what we kind
of thought made sense.
368
00:18:56,166 --> 00:18:59,826
And I would say one of the hardest
things about that was that this world
369
00:18:59,826 --> 00:19:04,326
of, of problematic policing and problem
solving can be incredibly isolating
370
00:19:04,536 --> 00:19:05,766
for people that are working in it.
371
00:19:05,766 --> 00:19:08,406
I, I mean, I can't speak for all
the various departments in America,
372
00:19:08,406 --> 00:19:13,276
but with 43 forces in the uk when
in England and Wales specifically
373
00:19:13,666 --> 00:19:16,756
you've got so many different ways
of working and that's just 43.
374
00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:19,421
I mean I don't, I don't want to
know how many departments there
375
00:19:19,421 --> 00:19:20,921
are in America in comparison.
376
00:19:21,251 --> 00:19:21,341
Mm-hmm.
377
00:19:21,431 --> 00:19:24,731
But in many of these forces, there
are no problem solving roles.
378
00:19:24,791 --> 00:19:25,031
Right.
379
00:19:25,031 --> 00:19:28,571
In some of them it's an attachment
onto someone's, like a bolt on
380
00:19:28,571 --> 00:19:30,131
your, a champion of problem solving.
381
00:19:30,131 --> 00:19:30,971
You are this, you are that.
382
00:19:31,361 --> 00:19:33,191
And for some, we have tactical advisors.
383
00:19:33,191 --> 00:19:35,711
Now, for us, there wasn't any blueprint.
384
00:19:35,741 --> 00:19:36,851
There was no team before.
385
00:19:36,851 --> 00:19:40,511
We had to kind of make it up as we went
along, which was really challenging when
386
00:19:40,511 --> 00:19:42,401
trying to deliver training and having to.
387
00:19:42,961 --> 00:19:46,751
Do talk people through the process
and explain what they ought to do.
388
00:19:46,751 --> 00:19:49,511
Because I'll be honest, like anybody
who's a few months into the job, we
389
00:19:49,511 --> 00:19:51,701
didn't really know what it involved.
390
00:19:51,701 --> 00:19:56,141
And I mean, I'm sure if I watch myself
back now giving those training inputs and
391
00:19:56,141 --> 00:20:01,271
giving advice to people, I would, I would
die and I would die of cringe at even
392
00:20:01,271 --> 00:20:04,811
like, turn of phrases and think, oh God,
Matt, why are you wording it like that?
393
00:20:04,811 --> 00:20:06,791
That's the wrong way, or
that's not a good idea.
394
00:20:07,061 --> 00:20:09,971
I think I do, you know what, if I'm
gonna be honest, then I'm gonna admit
395
00:20:10,281 --> 00:20:13,761
'cause it's one of my, one of the things
I talk about most often during training.
396
00:20:13,761 --> 00:20:17,061
Now, I think right there in
my first training session,
397
00:20:17,331 --> 00:20:18,801
I definitely tell people.
398
00:20:18,911 --> 00:20:22,151
Don't worry about assessment, the
last stage of problem solving.
399
00:20:22,241 --> 00:20:22,991
That's at the end.
400
00:20:22,991 --> 00:20:24,491
We'll deal with that when we get to it.
401
00:20:24,641 --> 00:20:27,461
And now that is just
like one of the red flag.
402
00:20:27,491 --> 00:20:29,051
Don't you dare say that.
403
00:20:29,421 --> 00:20:31,491
You need to start thinking
about it really early on.
404
00:20:31,491 --> 00:20:34,161
But we didn't have anyone
to learn from particularly.
405
00:20:34,241 --> 00:20:38,451
We were really beneficial that a
couple of academics who were massive
406
00:20:38,451 --> 00:20:39,801
and still are massive in that world.
407
00:20:39,801 --> 00:20:44,381
Aiden side bottom and Karen Bullock
both gave us gave us both time right
408
00:20:44,381 --> 00:20:47,381
early on just to have a chat about
things and kind of let us know.
409
00:20:47,786 --> 00:20:51,186
The sort of just the basics about
what this world was all about.
410
00:20:51,636 --> 00:20:56,376
It probably wasn't until I actually
did my first effort, if you like, and
411
00:20:56,376 --> 00:21:01,716
only to this point, effort in actually
owning a problem that I really kind of
412
00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:06,366
started to understand a lot more about
the challenges and, and, and the benefits
413
00:21:06,366 --> 00:21:09,816
and, and really get to experience what
it was like and be able to then train
414
00:21:09,816 --> 00:21:11,886
people in, in what it's actually like.
415
00:21:12,426 --> 00:21:17,666
Yeah, I, I think a lot of, what I've
heard from other departments, it.
416
00:21:17,936 --> 00:21:23,226
I don't know the exact, I'm gonna butcher
the exact saying, but it's you're, you're
417
00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:25,116
building the car while it's moving.
418
00:21:26,106 --> 00:21:26,616
Right?
419
00:21:26,616 --> 00:21:27,426
And you're, yeah.
420
00:21:27,486 --> 00:21:34,386
I, I think one of the problems that I
think happens is you have this new unit
421
00:21:34,536 --> 00:21:41,016
or this new project and it's like, oh,
we have to produce something as quickly
422
00:21:41,016 --> 00:21:47,716
as possible instead of sitting back
and actually strategically planning and
423
00:21:47,716 --> 00:21:51,026
building the unit or the project to.
424
00:21:51,826 --> 00:21:56,466
To make sure that every piece is well
thought out instead of just doing
425
00:21:56,466 --> 00:22:00,696
something as quickly as possible
or just being reactive, like play
426
00:22:00,696 --> 00:22:06,576
whack-a-mole on a, on some issue,
trying to throw as many problem
427
00:22:06,576 --> 00:22:09,186
solving techniques at it as you can.
428
00:22:09,636 --> 00:22:12,636
Yeah, I mean, I mean, that analogy will
resonate with anyone in the world of.
429
00:22:12,846 --> 00:22:17,236
Of problem policing in terms of
thinking about reacting to problems
430
00:22:17,236 --> 00:22:21,736
and just throwing, throwing a scatter
gun of of interventions at something.
431
00:22:21,736 --> 00:22:26,536
I think at the time I think I
probably wasn't experienced enough
432
00:22:26,536 --> 00:22:29,866
to, and I wasn't being paid, or that
wasn't in my job description, if
433
00:22:29,866 --> 00:22:33,826
you like to, to take a step back and
think more strategically about it.
434
00:22:33,826 --> 00:22:37,366
And our, our strategic leader,
who was great, as I said, was
435
00:22:37,426 --> 00:22:40,816
immediately seconded to another
department to deal with, with COVID.
436
00:22:41,206 --> 00:22:45,916
So we didn't have, we, we probably,
to be fair, just had the luxury of
437
00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:50,446
time to be able to do that in, in our
defense, because it was a new team.
438
00:22:50,446 --> 00:22:53,746
There wasn't anyone hounding us because
everyone was so busy with COVID and,
439
00:22:53,746 --> 00:22:55,186
and everything going on with that.
440
00:22:55,576 --> 00:22:59,866
But because it was just the two of
us in this whole new world and we
441
00:22:59,866 --> 00:23:01,396
were kind of muddling through it.
442
00:23:01,721 --> 00:23:05,291
I think we weren't thinking
strategically enough about it.
443
00:23:05,451 --> 00:23:08,481
As I say that I wasn't in that role,
if you like, and that that was a
444
00:23:08,481 --> 00:23:11,451
role that when I moved onto the, the
second force that I worked for, where
445
00:23:11,451 --> 00:23:16,001
I was then in taking a fairly minor
but a, a management role I had to
446
00:23:16,001 --> 00:23:20,081
start thinking more strategically and
less about single individual plans.
447
00:23:20,081 --> 00:23:22,091
That might be a, might be a good winner.
448
00:23:22,391 --> 00:23:24,431
And actually more how do we embed this?
449
00:23:24,431 --> 00:23:25,841
How do we work with analysts?
450
00:23:25,841 --> 00:23:27,521
How do we work with other departments?
451
00:23:27,701 --> 00:23:29,381
What's the data quality side of things?
452
00:23:29,381 --> 00:23:30,551
How do we record it?
453
00:23:30,581 --> 00:23:32,321
How do we evaluate it?
454
00:23:32,321 --> 00:23:36,281
I was a, I was a, I was a piece in the
cog if I was a cog in the machine, rather.
455
00:23:36,581 --> 00:23:36,881
Mm-hmm.
456
00:23:37,071 --> 00:23:40,256
Rather than the second, role
having to take on more of the,
457
00:23:40,256 --> 00:23:43,046
that autonomy around the whole
of the, the machine, if you like.
458
00:23:43,281 --> 00:23:43,641
Yeah.
459
00:23:43,791 --> 00:23:48,911
So I, do want to get to the award-winning
projects that you worked on, but I
460
00:23:48,911 --> 00:23:54,761
am curious about the first project
that you work on, that the deciding
461
00:23:55,061 --> 00:23:59,951
the, the, the first problem that you
identified and how you worked through it.
462
00:24:00,371 --> 00:24:01,931
Well, that was, that was the, wasn't
463
00:24:02,766 --> 00:24:05,921
Oh, see, like, look, hey,
it just naturally happened.
464
00:24:05,971 --> 00:24:08,001
You know you didn't
need to cut your teeth.
465
00:24:09,381 --> 00:24:11,301
Well, well, I mean, it took a long time.
466
00:24:11,301 --> 00:24:12,261
It took a lot of effort.
467
00:24:12,321 --> 00:24:13,251
And I think it was a bit like.
468
00:24:13,751 --> 00:24:16,781
When I look back at like, Goldstein,
Herman Goldstein came up with Pop and
469
00:24:16,811 --> 00:24:20,111
when he originally did the original
couple of studies on it to really
470
00:24:20,111 --> 00:24:24,251
like showcase what it was, you look
back at those, they're like 150 pages.
471
00:24:24,491 --> 00:24:26,951
And I, I'm looking back at that
thinking, wow he'd come up with
472
00:24:26,951 --> 00:24:31,451
this, this way of thinking by God he
was gonna do it to the nth degree.
473
00:24:31,451 --> 00:24:34,661
He was really going to, to, to
really smash it, if you like, and,
474
00:24:34,691 --> 00:24:36,851
and try and cover every single area.
475
00:24:36,851 --> 00:24:41,471
And obviously I would scale mine down,
so like 2% of that in comparison.
476
00:24:41,651 --> 00:24:45,851
But I, I took the same attitude towards
it in terms of saying, if I'm going
477
00:24:45,851 --> 00:24:49,781
to do this and I'm gonna teach people
about it, then by God I'm going to
478
00:24:49,841 --> 00:24:52,691
do this to the nth degree and try
and do this as well as possible.
479
00:24:52,691 --> 00:24:53,711
So, yeah.
480
00:24:53,711 --> 00:24:57,611
What happened was our we had a
a serious organized crime unit.
481
00:24:57,661 --> 00:25:01,541
So a department that focused on
organized criminals and they'd noticed
482
00:25:01,541 --> 00:25:05,531
an influx in the number of catalytic
converter thefts that we were having.
483
00:25:05,531 --> 00:25:08,531
So catalytic converters being
bit underneath your car.
484
00:25:08,981 --> 00:25:12,361
Not on electric vehicles, but on,
on normal and hybrid vehicles that
485
00:25:12,361 --> 00:25:14,011
clean the emissions coming out there.
486
00:25:14,281 --> 00:25:17,941
And they contain lots of precious metals
that people like going after around COVID.
487
00:25:17,941 --> 00:25:20,701
There was a massive spike
in the number of incidents.
488
00:25:20,701 --> 00:25:21,046
It was, it was.
489
00:25:21,346 --> 00:25:24,786
Correlated with the with the
price, the value of the metal.
490
00:25:24,786 --> 00:25:26,376
So why offenders were going after them?
491
00:25:26,376 --> 00:25:28,836
I think from memory, the
states was a little bit slow.
492
00:25:28,896 --> 00:25:31,866
The offenders in the states were a little
bit slow on this compared to the uk.
493
00:25:31,866 --> 00:25:35,506
We'd sort of spiked the year
before before it came to you guys.
494
00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:37,546
But it definitely, it definitely came.
495
00:25:37,846 --> 00:25:41,196
And they'd noticed this issue
and they'd been made aware that
496
00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:42,636
our team had been created really.
497
00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:44,851
And they sort of said, well,
we've been trying our hand up.
498
00:25:45,146 --> 00:25:49,376
Doing covert operations and just and,
and at the same time, neighborhood
499
00:25:49,376 --> 00:25:54,646
teams, local teams doing overt
patrols and it's not really working.
500
00:25:54,646 --> 00:25:56,446
It's things are just getting worse.
501
00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:59,566
It was one of those, when I describe
it to people and, and share people the
502
00:25:59,566 --> 00:26:04,006
slides around it, it was one of those
perfect scanning opportunities where
503
00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:07,876
the, the scanning writes itself, the
justification writes itself because
504
00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:11,656
you've got one of those lovely bar
charts that just goes like a staircase.
505
00:26:11,926 --> 00:26:16,636
So everything is just going up as the,
the quarters progress really nicely, which
506
00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:20,386
kind of said, okay, this is the perfect
time for us to be, to be tackling this.
507
00:26:20,536 --> 00:26:23,416
So they kind of approached us
and said, would you like to
508
00:26:23,416 --> 00:26:24,726
work on work on it with us?
509
00:26:24,726 --> 00:26:26,876
And I thought it was a great
opportunity to actually have a go
510
00:26:26,876 --> 00:26:30,876
at properly owning it or co-owning
it with the inspector at the time.
511
00:26:31,026 --> 00:26:34,146
So I said, great, I'll, I'll start working
on it from a problem zone perspective
512
00:26:34,146 --> 00:26:37,326
and went through all the motions and
I'm sure I'd do a million things.
513
00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:41,686
Differently now, but what, what the
data side of things that came out,
514
00:26:41,686 --> 00:26:44,536
and I did the analysis myself and what
I should say is that we actually had
515
00:26:44,926 --> 00:26:49,246
two analysts in our team, but I really
wanted to do a lot of this work myself
516
00:26:49,246 --> 00:26:52,696
to actually experience what it was like
because we were asking frontline officers
517
00:26:52,696 --> 00:26:54,466
to be doing this, a lot of this work.
518
00:26:54,966 --> 00:26:57,906
So I I, I wanted to go through
and, and kind of learn.
519
00:26:57,906 --> 00:27:01,056
So as I were going through the,
the, the thing that jumped out
520
00:27:01,056 --> 00:27:03,456
at me, the, the, everyone talks
about the light bulb moment.
521
00:27:03,456 --> 00:27:05,946
It doesn't always happen, the light
bulb moment, but what it does, it's.
522
00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:08,696
It's memorable and it's,
it's very enjoyable.
523
00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:09,726
The light bulb moment.
524
00:27:10,056 --> 00:27:14,346
Yeah, it is very, and that, that,
that moment for me was seeing that
525
00:27:14,376 --> 00:27:21,096
94.7% of CATA converter thefts
were not reported via 9 9 9.
526
00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:25,766
So our emergency contact number
in the uk, and to other people
527
00:27:25,766 --> 00:27:29,306
that might not sound exciting,
that might not sound enlightening.
528
00:27:29,646 --> 00:27:34,536
But combined with the rest of the picture
that we're seeing and that kind of
529
00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:39,396
thought process around causal factors
and what is contributing and why do we
530
00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:43,476
see the patterns that we see, not simply
reporting descriptive statistics and
531
00:27:43,476 --> 00:27:48,576
saying, oh yeah, they're not reporting
via 9, 9, 9, saying, what does that mean?
532
00:27:48,576 --> 00:27:50,136
What does that tell us?
533
00:27:50,256 --> 00:27:52,086
Putting all this information together.
534
00:27:52,391 --> 00:27:57,311
We came up with the idea that actually
this was happening so frequently in busy
535
00:27:57,311 --> 00:28:01,061
car parks in the middle of the day because
there was just no risk for thieves.
536
00:28:01,571 --> 00:28:06,321
So they were doing these crimes
in in clear sight of other people.
537
00:28:06,946 --> 00:28:09,616
Because they knew they could get away
with it and they could take their time.
538
00:28:09,616 --> 00:28:12,526
I mean, it took them 60 seconds
normally, but they didn't have to rush.
539
00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:14,326
They would nick 10 in one go.
540
00:28:14,566 --> 00:28:16,996
Sometimes they would
just go from car to car.
541
00:28:17,086 --> 00:28:20,596
So if you, I always sort of say if you
put your elbow through a car window
542
00:28:20,626 --> 00:28:23,296
back in the day, I dunno if that
happens much anymore to be honest.
543
00:28:23,706 --> 00:28:25,386
What with what with windows these days?
544
00:28:25,596 --> 00:28:26,736
But everyone turns around.
545
00:28:26,736 --> 00:28:30,156
Everyone looks, someone calls
police security are coming over.
546
00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:32,526
There's a commotion you need
to get out of there quickly.
547
00:28:33,006 --> 00:28:36,306
Whereas you put on a high vis
jacket and jack up a car and
548
00:28:36,306 --> 00:28:37,866
either people don't see it.
549
00:28:38,481 --> 00:28:41,751
Or they, because it's,
it's, it's blending in.
550
00:28:41,751 --> 00:28:43,701
Or if they see it, they
think, oh, that's a shame.
551
00:28:43,701 --> 00:28:45,291
Someone's, someone's broken down.
552
00:28:45,291 --> 00:28:46,401
They need some assistance.
553
00:28:46,431 --> 00:28:46,521
Mm-hmm.
554
00:28:46,821 --> 00:28:49,941
So, because of that, because the fact
that it was happening in busy car
555
00:28:49,941 --> 00:28:52,281
parks in the middle of the day, we were
kind of thinking, hang on a minute.
556
00:28:52,311 --> 00:28:54,471
Shouldn't we be getting
loads of 9, 9, 9 calls?
557
00:28:54,501 --> 00:28:57,861
This is happening in front of
people and it's really loud.
558
00:28:57,891 --> 00:29:00,621
It should be really
obvious, but it wasn't.
559
00:29:00,831 --> 00:29:03,571
So we were realizing that this
was contributing to the problem.
560
00:29:03,571 --> 00:29:04,891
It was making it really easy.
561
00:29:04,891 --> 00:29:09,866
And one way of us to resolve this would
be to improve what we call the, the
562
00:29:09,871 --> 00:29:12,121
capable guardianship of people around.
563
00:29:12,121 --> 00:29:16,231
So I pitched it that people were incapable
guardians because they were there,
564
00:29:16,261 --> 00:29:19,981
but they were incapable of making a
difference because their presence made no
565
00:29:19,981 --> 00:29:22,441
difference whatsoever to the offenders.
566
00:29:22,441 --> 00:29:24,061
It wouldn't matter if
someone's walking past.
567
00:29:24,061 --> 00:29:25,201
So we needed to change that.
568
00:29:25,201 --> 00:29:28,741
So everything that we
did was around awareness.
569
00:29:28,921 --> 00:29:31,471
So we kind of threw every other response
in the bin and, and to give you a
570
00:29:31,471 --> 00:29:34,861
selection of some of the other things that
were going on, you were having patrols.
571
00:29:35,086 --> 00:29:40,116
Even though even if you have a high sort
of hotspot car park, you're not talking
572
00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:44,496
about huge numbers when you consider every
hour of the day right across a month.
573
00:29:44,736 --> 00:29:47,646
So what's the chance of you, of
you being there in that moment
574
00:29:47,706 --> 00:29:51,796
trying to cover across a, a, a
wide, a wide area across a county?
575
00:29:52,076 --> 00:29:52,766
It is pretty unlikely.
576
00:29:52,766 --> 00:29:56,576
We actually even had an example
where offenders waited for police
577
00:29:56,576 --> 00:30:00,716
to leave the car park before then
offending, which I think was the
578
00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:04,856
perfect example to give to local teams
to say, look, it's not working guys.
579
00:30:04,916 --> 00:30:07,386
This, this isn't actually
deterring the problem.
580
00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:09,746
So everything was about comms.
581
00:30:10,016 --> 00:30:12,926
One of the comms that we were
putting out, I was har back to
582
00:30:13,136 --> 00:30:16,526
beforehand and all forces, to be
honest, in the UK were doing it.
583
00:30:16,736 --> 00:30:18,866
We were saying park under a light.
584
00:30:18,891 --> 00:30:22,401
But this was happening in the, in the
middle of the day, but we were still
585
00:30:22,401 --> 00:30:23,871
telling people park under a light.
586
00:30:24,381 --> 00:30:27,201
They were, we were telling
people don't park up a curb.
587
00:30:27,201 --> 00:30:30,411
So the sides are up on the, the
few for American listers up on the
588
00:30:30,411 --> 00:30:34,401
sidewalk, if you like, in terms of
up, up with two leg two wheels up.
589
00:30:34,951 --> 00:30:36,931
Because that gives access
to under the vehicle.
590
00:30:37,171 --> 00:30:37,561
But.
591
00:30:37,941 --> 00:30:41,481
It takes them all of about five
seconds to jack the car up.
592
00:30:41,511 --> 00:30:44,781
They are not just looking for
cars where you can get a little
593
00:30:44,781 --> 00:30:46,431
bit of extra access underneath.
594
00:30:46,491 --> 00:30:49,581
So these are the kind of things
that we were, we were putting out.
595
00:30:49,831 --> 00:30:52,141
And it wasn't making a blind bit
of difference, but it wouldn't stop
596
00:30:52,141 --> 00:30:53,671
us putting them out all the time.
597
00:30:53,671 --> 00:30:56,701
And I think that's another thing that
will resonate with, with problem solvers
598
00:30:56,701 --> 00:31:02,431
out there, seeing forces routinely doing
the same things over and over with not
599
00:31:02,431 --> 00:31:05,131
really an understanding of whether or
not those things are gonna work or not.
600
00:31:05,341 --> 00:31:06,571
So we changed the narrative.
601
00:31:06,631 --> 00:31:10,141
Everything was about awareness raising of
what it looks like, what it sounds like.
602
00:31:10,141 --> 00:31:12,931
Call 9 9 9, sort of cutting
through everything else.
603
00:31:12,931 --> 00:31:14,101
So lots of visuals.
604
00:31:14,101 --> 00:31:15,091
We did interviews.
605
00:31:15,091 --> 00:31:20,581
There was campaigns in person with big
adverts on the side of a van leaflet in
606
00:31:20,581 --> 00:31:23,321
the right cars in the right areas, rather.
607
00:31:23,451 --> 00:31:25,461
As I say, lots of interviews
and presentations.
608
00:31:25,461 --> 00:31:28,521
We created a, an advert on
an online advert with a, with
609
00:31:28,521 --> 00:31:30,141
a, with a vehicle company.
610
00:31:30,511 --> 00:31:31,201
We did loads of.
611
00:31:31,746 --> 00:31:32,736
And what did we see?
612
00:31:32,736 --> 00:31:35,586
Well, we, the key thing was we didn't
just see crime come down, but we
613
00:31:35,586 --> 00:31:36,816
actually measured the other things.
614
00:31:36,816 --> 00:31:38,886
We measured 9, 9, 9 calls.
615
00:31:39,096 --> 00:31:43,316
We measured how many suspect vehicles
were identified so on and so forth.
616
00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:46,646
And that actually generated a load
of arrests in a short period of time.
617
00:31:46,646 --> 00:31:48,806
And we hadn't arrested
anyone for six months and.
618
00:31:48,886 --> 00:31:52,766
Stack bought, bought us some credibility,
if you like, with local officers.
619
00:31:52,826 --> 00:31:52,916
Mm-hmm.
620
00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:54,806
That they were excited about that element.
621
00:31:54,806 --> 00:31:58,621
It, it pains me obviously that that
was the bit that they were more excited
622
00:31:58,621 --> 00:32:02,071
about, but we could use that as leverage,
if you like to say, well actually,
623
00:32:02,071 --> 00:32:03,271
look, there's, there's something in it.
624
00:32:03,271 --> 00:32:05,971
For that side of things,
enforcing the law as well.
625
00:32:05,971 --> 00:32:08,921
There are these opportunities
to, to nick people as well.
626
00:32:08,921 --> 00:32:12,371
But that would contribute to the
overall sort of elevation of risk.
627
00:32:12,371 --> 00:32:15,801
And we would really publicize that where
we could in terms of , the arrests that
628
00:32:15,801 --> 00:32:19,941
were happening, but also the creating this
idea that anyone in that car park might
629
00:32:19,941 --> 00:32:23,361
be about to call the police and that that
risk is elevated, made the difference.
630
00:32:23,361 --> 00:32:26,751
And we saw huge reductions in the
number of our thefts compared to
631
00:32:26,811 --> 00:32:30,111
nearby forces that didn't see those
reductions when, when we compared.
632
00:32:30,421 --> 00:32:31,381
And what I would say is that.
633
00:32:31,771 --> 00:32:35,821
The, the, the assessment, the evaluation
we did of that was by no means
634
00:32:35,821 --> 00:32:37,981
watertight in any way, shape or form.
635
00:32:37,981 --> 00:32:41,441
We didn't run statistical analyses
and all of that kind of thing the
636
00:32:41,441 --> 00:32:45,431
controls, they weren't controls, it
was just comparisons with other forces,
637
00:32:45,641 --> 00:32:47,981
especially because when you're doing
something on a large scale, it's very
638
00:32:47,981 --> 00:32:49,331
difficult to have control groups.
639
00:32:49,331 --> 00:32:52,061
It wasn't like we were just targeting
one car part that wouldn't have
640
00:32:52,061 --> 00:32:55,581
made much a difference across
a whole across a whole force.
641
00:32:55,681 --> 00:33:00,391
But what I did was I measured things
along the way that I was looking for.
642
00:33:00,391 --> 00:33:04,201
So it was almost like hypothesis testing
of, well, if I see this in the data,
643
00:33:04,261 --> 00:33:07,141
that will give me a confidence that this
is happening and what would I expect to
644
00:33:07,171 --> 00:33:12,361
see next and next and next until finally
we see those reduction in offending.
645
00:33:12,361 --> 00:33:14,791
And that's exactly what we saw,
which gave me a lot more confidence.
646
00:33:14,791 --> 00:33:17,101
I think if I just looked at the number of.
647
00:33:17,351 --> 00:33:21,491
Thefts and saw they reduced, I
wouldn't have felt confident that we
648
00:33:21,491 --> 00:33:22,871
had actually made that difference.
649
00:33:22,871 --> 00:33:26,271
But for me, that was the one in terms
of being able to do that project, see it
650
00:33:26,271 --> 00:33:28,281
through, become a bit obsessed over it.
651
00:33:28,281 --> 00:33:33,201
I was unfortunately checking crime
stats every day and I would not advise.
652
00:33:33,201 --> 00:33:36,291
And I know there'll be many of your
analysts out there that will do the
653
00:33:36,291 --> 00:33:37,641
same thing and they'll buy into it.
654
00:33:37,641 --> 00:33:38,931
And I completely get it.
655
00:33:39,351 --> 00:33:42,261
But try not to, because it
just takes over your life.
656
00:33:42,291 --> 00:33:45,491
I mean, it does make it feel when you
have another day, another day without
657
00:33:45,491 --> 00:33:48,931
one on there you feel more confident and
you and then, and then you see there's a
658
00:33:48,931 --> 00:33:52,771
spate of a three or four the next day and,
and it, and you, it is heart wrenching.
659
00:33:52,771 --> 00:33:54,961
But but no, that was the, that
was the, that was the thing that
660
00:33:54,961 --> 00:33:55,921
kind of kicked everything off.
661
00:33:56,071 --> 00:34:01,051
So why weren't the victims calling 9, 9 9?
662
00:34:01,411 --> 00:34:02,671
'
cause they didn't know
what it looked like.
663
00:34:02,671 --> 00:34:05,761
Well, so they had no clue
that this was a crime.
664
00:34:06,136 --> 00:34:08,866
But I'm talking about the
people that owned the vehicles.
665
00:34:08,866 --> 00:34:14,206
When the people that came back to
their car in the parking lot started
666
00:34:14,206 --> 00:34:19,251
their car and their car wouldn't
run, they realized that the, mm-hmm.
667
00:34:19,336 --> 00:34:24,856
The vehicle had been tampered and
the Cadillac converter was stolen.
668
00:34:25,036 --> 00:34:29,956
Why did they not then call
police and report the theft?
669
00:34:30,166 --> 00:34:31,306
Well, you had a mix, right?
670
00:34:31,306 --> 00:34:34,036
So you had some that didn't realize.
671
00:34:34,411 --> 00:34:37,411
A crime had occurred, and I've
put that in the majority actually.
672
00:34:37,831 --> 00:34:41,551
They would call their breakdown
service company and say, my
673
00:34:41,551 --> 00:34:43,021
car's making a funny noise.
674
00:34:43,081 --> 00:34:44,821
You need to have someone sent out.
675
00:34:44,851 --> 00:34:47,341
They would explain it and they
said, you've been a victim of crime.
676
00:34:47,341 --> 00:34:47,971
And they would go, what?
677
00:34:48,791 --> 00:34:52,571
And at that point they would then
call 1 0 1, which is our non-emergency
678
00:34:52,631 --> 00:34:54,641
slow time police response line.
679
00:34:56,201 --> 00:34:56,261
Oh, okay.
680
00:34:56,261 --> 00:34:57,311
And, and it would be too late.
681
00:34:57,621 --> 00:35:01,011
They obviously wouldn't be calling 9 9
9 for most of these because they were in
682
00:35:01,011 --> 00:35:04,431
car parks where they were in the, they
were working in the supermarket or they
683
00:35:04,431 --> 00:35:07,101
were visiting somewhere or in hospitals.
684
00:35:07,281 --> 00:35:09,651
So, I mean, it from an emotional
point of view, it was highly
685
00:35:09,651 --> 00:35:13,251
impacted because it was happening
in the middle of COVID and mm-hmm.
686
00:35:13,252 --> 00:35:14,001
I don't, I, I don't know.
687
00:35:14,006 --> 00:35:17,541
I, I, I dunno what the language was
used was, was like in America, but
688
00:35:17,931 --> 00:35:21,591
the language over here was all about
key workers and that encompassed
689
00:35:21,771 --> 00:35:25,731
everyone who was working, still sort
of public facing at the time of COVID.
690
00:35:25,791 --> 00:35:29,001
So that, whether that was hospitals
that was police or whether that.
691
00:35:29,201 --> 00:35:31,901
Supermarket workers who
had to keep going to work.
692
00:35:31,901 --> 00:35:34,931
So it was targeting those
particular individuals.
693
00:35:35,171 --> 00:35:37,391
So they would come back
to their car hours later.
694
00:35:37,421 --> 00:35:40,241
Probably an important detail
that I've, I've, I, I missed out.
695
00:35:40,241 --> 00:35:41,501
I'm glad that you picked up on that.
696
00:35:41,531 --> 00:35:45,596
'cause that was the kind of key punchline,
I guess, after the 95%, is that that
697
00:35:45,791 --> 00:35:49,331
why they didn't recognize it was because
they didn't know what it looked like,
698
00:35:49,331 --> 00:35:52,391
and therefore we needed to educate
them about, about what it looked like.
699
00:35:52,541 --> 00:35:52,811
Hmm.
700
00:35:52,901 --> 00:35:53,501
Yeah.
701
00:35:53,501 --> 00:35:59,051
And I've talked to analysts that, and
even during my time as an analyst did
702
00:35:59,471 --> 00:36:04,261
there, as soon as the price of , those
metals would go up, we would see an
703
00:36:04,261 --> 00:36:06,811
uptick in Cadillac converter theft.
704
00:36:06,961 --> 00:36:14,771
And I, I think a lot of the response
was targeting the scrap yards, uhhuh,
705
00:36:15,086 --> 00:36:19,451
the, the people that were taking in
the catalytic converters , coming
706
00:36:19,451 --> 00:36:22,961
up with a program where they.
707
00:36:23,376 --> 00:36:28,176
Had an idea of who was coming in with
like 10 catalytic converters at a time.
708
00:36:28,776 --> 00:36:33,396
Definitely like being able to
document like, who is this person?
709
00:36:33,396 --> 00:36:38,426
And set allowing them to have cameras
and allow them to go back and say, okay,
710
00:36:38,426 --> 00:36:42,536
yeah, this person came in with like 10
different catalytic converters on this
711
00:36:42,536 --> 00:36:48,456
day, and you that was able to curve a
lot of the problem because then they
712
00:36:48,456 --> 00:36:53,346
would have inventory and not any real
ability to get rid of the inventory.
713
00:36:53,581 --> 00:36:57,216
And, and that, that what you've
touched on there is the perfect.
714
00:36:57,616 --> 00:37:00,526
Explanation for why problem
solving is problem solving
715
00:37:00,526 --> 00:37:01,606
and why it's the right thing.
716
00:37:01,846 --> 00:37:01,936
Mm-hmm.
717
00:37:02,176 --> 00:37:06,646
Because for us, that wasn't an option
because at the start of this work,
718
00:37:06,826 --> 00:37:10,666
we did all of the checks on the scrap
yards and couldn't find anything.
719
00:37:11,176 --> 00:37:15,056
And that doesn't, that doesn't mean to say
that some weren't a problem don't get me
720
00:37:15,056 --> 00:37:17,576
wrong completely, but what the intel was.
721
00:37:17,621 --> 00:37:21,131
Pointing us towards was organized
criminals coming from much
722
00:37:21,131 --> 00:37:22,901
further afield across the country.
723
00:37:23,201 --> 00:37:25,271
That was the consistent
thing we were thinking.
724
00:37:25,271 --> 00:37:29,441
And I remember during COVID being sat
in my bedroom with a laptop thinking,
725
00:37:29,471 --> 00:37:34,001
how on earth am I gonna be able to
influence their behavior when they're
726
00:37:34,211 --> 00:37:38,051
getting all of these and then driving
for two hours, three hours, four
727
00:37:38,051 --> 00:37:42,161
hours in a different direction, into
a completely another jurisdiction.
728
00:37:42,411 --> 00:37:46,491
People were shipping them out of
the country in ports and again.
729
00:37:46,706 --> 00:37:51,506
We didn't have any ports, so in our
force, so I was thinking again, what
730
00:37:51,506 --> 00:37:53,606
is actually within my locus of control?
731
00:37:53,606 --> 00:37:56,426
What do I have actual
opportunity to influence here?
732
00:37:56,726 --> 00:38:00,926
Do I put all my eggs in the, let's
try and legislate change through
733
00:38:00,926 --> 00:38:04,476
the governance and say they need
to do recording of scrap, scrap
734
00:38:04,476 --> 00:38:06,426
yards, et cetera in a different way.
735
00:38:06,696 --> 00:38:10,596
Do I need to work with other agencies
at ports to try and influence it?
736
00:38:10,596 --> 00:38:12,816
And do I think that would make
a meaningful difference to the
737
00:38:12,816 --> 00:38:16,356
people in my county that I'm
responsible for, for tackling it?
738
00:38:16,356 --> 00:38:19,666
No, I don't think it would've
made very much difference at all.
739
00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:23,686
And the beauty, again, was added that
when we went to the, the Goldstein
740
00:38:23,686 --> 00:38:27,616
Awards as a finalist with this project,
someone came up to me after the project
741
00:38:27,616 --> 00:38:30,376
and they said after the presentation
and they said, oh, that was great.
742
00:38:30,406 --> 00:38:31,786
, Thanks for doing that.
743
00:38:32,086 --> 00:38:32,266
He said.
744
00:38:32,671 --> 00:38:34,261
We did something completely different.
745
00:38:34,311 --> 00:38:34,401
Mm-hmm.
746
00:38:34,671 --> 00:38:40,991
They said we had a local problem whereby
offenders were stealing the grinders.
747
00:38:41,201 --> 00:38:43,391
The angle grinders from shops.
748
00:38:43,776 --> 00:38:46,476
And then committing the
ly converter effects.
749
00:38:46,746 --> 00:38:50,436
So they said, well, what we did was worked
with the shops that were selling the angle
750
00:38:50,436 --> 00:38:54,306
grinders to put them in certain places and
put target hardening measures around them
751
00:38:54,306 --> 00:38:56,076
to make them harder for them to steal.
752
00:38:56,376 --> 00:38:58,386
And I thought that is just perfect.
753
00:38:58,686 --> 00:39:02,376
I love the fact that you've done
that and you've told me that because
754
00:39:02,526 --> 00:39:04,056
that is what this is all about.
755
00:39:04,266 --> 00:39:07,446
That is saying what is your specific
problem that you are seeing?
756
00:39:07,446 --> 00:39:11,676
If you are working in an area where
there's a port and you think 90%
757
00:39:11,676 --> 00:39:14,496
of them are being shipped out via
the port and that's the main reason
758
00:39:14,496 --> 00:39:17,706
they're doing them in that area,
then you bloody well target the port.
759
00:39:17,976 --> 00:39:21,141
If you, if, if you've got this angle
grinder problem like they're describing
760
00:39:21,141 --> 00:39:26,286
and that is accessible to you to be able
to influence the, the mo of the offense
761
00:39:26,286 --> 00:39:30,006
from even before they've committed the
offense, how they get the tool and you can
762
00:39:30,006 --> 00:39:32,076
influence that, then you go and do that.
763
00:39:32,286 --> 00:39:35,616
That just wasn't the position that we
were in, which is why we went down the
764
00:39:35,616 --> 00:39:39,156
route that we went down because that
was something that was in our reach
765
00:39:39,156 --> 00:39:40,656
that we could actually influence.
766
00:39:40,746 --> 00:39:45,296
Yeah, well it, it comes down to the
understanding the complete process,
767
00:39:45,446 --> 00:39:52,796
and that's when you get into the data
and start understanding the, the parts.
768
00:39:53,161 --> 00:39:56,461
Of the process that aren't in the data.
769
00:39:56,731 --> 00:40:02,311
So just as you mentioned there that,
okay, , how are they stealing this?
770
00:40:02,311 --> 00:40:02,551
Okay.
771
00:40:02,551 --> 00:40:03,841
What tools are they using?
772
00:40:03,841 --> 00:40:05,281
Where are they getting the tools?
773
00:40:05,281 --> 00:40:06,151
Okay.
774
00:40:06,511 --> 00:40:10,771
Or what are they doing with it once
they have the catalytic converter?
775
00:40:10,821 --> 00:40:14,631
That's not gonna show up on any really
police report, but that's something where
776
00:40:14,631 --> 00:40:19,881
you have to understand the different
parts to the timeline, the process
777
00:40:19,881 --> 00:40:25,491
from beginning to end and be able to
target a that point in the process.
778
00:40:25,611 --> 00:40:28,551
What's the biggest bang for
your books, so to speak?
779
00:40:28,551 --> 00:40:28,941
Right?
780
00:40:29,211 --> 00:40:29,871
In terms, yeah.
781
00:40:29,871 --> 00:40:33,351
Completely of, of that, to disrupt that.
782
00:40:33,351 --> 00:40:36,681
And then there's probably terms
for all this that I'm not using,
783
00:40:36,771 --> 00:40:39,771
but that's, that's just kind
of where my head is going.
784
00:40:39,891 --> 00:40:41,661
It's like the dom, it's
like a domino effect.
785
00:40:41,661 --> 00:40:45,056
Where can you take one of the dominoes
out so that they don't knock, don't
786
00:40:45,056 --> 00:40:48,501
knock the rest of them over in terms of
where their, where is their opportunity.
787
00:40:48,531 --> 00:40:50,241
And I think that's why.
788
00:40:50,581 --> 00:40:53,701
One of the most common things, actually,
just kind of on that theme is that,
789
00:40:53,701 --> 00:40:57,871
and thinking about opportunity, one
of the most common issue issues I
790
00:40:57,871 --> 00:40:59,671
say is it's not an issue as such.
791
00:40:59,671 --> 00:41:02,401
It's, I used to, I made the
mistake for many years until I
792
00:41:02,401 --> 00:41:06,571
clocked the difference about root
causes versus underlying causes.
793
00:41:06,601 --> 00:41:08,821
So everyone always talks
about root causes, right?
794
00:41:08,821 --> 00:41:09,961
It sounds right.
795
00:41:10,161 --> 00:41:12,231
Why wouldn't we go after the root causes?
796
00:41:12,231 --> 00:41:14,781
It sounds wrong to say anything
else that's that that's
797
00:41:14,781 --> 00:41:15,861
more meaningful, isn't it?
798
00:41:15,861 --> 00:41:17,241
To go after the root cause of the problem.
799
00:41:17,241 --> 00:41:19,101
Why wouldn't you go after the
root cause of the problem?
800
00:41:19,101 --> 00:41:22,971
But in the context of heart, really we
are talking about underlying causes,
801
00:41:22,971 --> 00:41:27,951
not root causes, because the root causes
of problems are inevitably things like.
802
00:41:28,251 --> 00:41:30,891
Poverty things hundreds
of years in the making.
803
00:41:30,891 --> 00:41:35,151
Sometimes generational factors, things
that are gonna cost millions or billions
804
00:41:35,151 --> 00:41:41,821
of pounds and dollars to try and change
that are not within our in our degree
805
00:41:41,821 --> 00:41:44,561
to of control or opportunity to change.
806
00:41:44,561 --> 00:41:47,201
So what we are after are the
things that contribute to the
807
00:41:47,201 --> 00:41:50,591
problem that we can actually make
a meaningful change of tomorrow.
808
00:41:50,801 --> 00:41:55,181
So, for example, we can, like
that example, take away their
809
00:41:55,181 --> 00:41:56,531
access to the angle grinders.
810
00:41:56,531 --> 00:42:00,551
That doesn't change the, the, the
value of the catalytic converter.
811
00:42:00,551 --> 00:42:02,321
It doesn't change the vulnerability of it.
812
00:42:02,481 --> 00:42:06,291
The fact that they will continue to
be added to cars, the fact that people
813
00:42:06,291 --> 00:42:10,251
will continue to be able to sell them on
the, the fact that people continue to be
814
00:42:10,251 --> 00:42:13,971
drawn into life of crime otherwise when
you're looking at root causes, are we
815
00:42:13,971 --> 00:42:17,841
inevitably not for organized criminality
trying to stop people from getting
816
00:42:17,841 --> 00:42:20,621
involved in cri in criminality as a child.
817
00:42:20,781 --> 00:42:21,951
It's things like that that.
818
00:42:22,236 --> 00:42:25,866
The, it often detracts if we
just think about root causes, it
819
00:42:25,866 --> 00:42:31,396
detracts from the ability that,
that, that we can all have on very
820
00:42:31,396 --> 00:42:33,076
realistic things that we can change.
821
00:42:33,136 --> 00:42:37,496
As I said, tomorrow we can't change
exactly the reasons why men are
822
00:42:37,496 --> 00:42:40,496
often more violent to towards
women, and we see a lot of issues
823
00:42:40,496 --> 00:42:41,606
in violence against women and girls.
824
00:42:41,606 --> 00:42:46,076
But what can I do in that bar,
in that nightclub where women
825
00:42:46,076 --> 00:42:47,966
are being targeted by men?
826
00:42:48,756 --> 00:42:52,896
Do a handful of things with the security
guard's behavior, with the positioning of
827
00:42:52,896 --> 00:42:58,296
the cameras, with the entry policy, with
the bar prices, with the ability to take
828
00:42:58,296 --> 00:43:02,796
glass outside afterwards with lots of
people lingering outside the bar and not
829
00:43:02,796 --> 00:43:05,146
getting in a taxi very quickly afterwards.
830
00:43:05,146 --> 00:43:07,936
So you get more people lingering
when they're lingering for a while.
831
00:43:07,936 --> 00:43:10,846
They have disagreements and then
arguments happen and then fights happen.
832
00:43:11,146 --> 00:43:12,676
I can make little changes there.
833
00:43:12,676 --> 00:43:16,396
I might not be tackling the root cause
of it, but I'm tackling contributory
834
00:43:16,396 --> 00:43:20,026
factors that makes the problem worse
and they are within my reach and
835
00:43:20,026 --> 00:43:24,226
that's, that's the beauty of what this
is, is what's within your reach to
836
00:43:24,226 --> 00:43:25,966
actually make a meaningful difference.
837
00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:34,226
Hi, this is Steve French, and I have
a little phrase for you to remember.
838
00:43:34,956 --> 00:43:37,016
A phrase that stuck with me
throughout my time as an analyst
839
00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:38,716
is a quote from Sherlock Holmes.
840
00:43:39,196 --> 00:43:42,356
When you've eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however
841
00:43:42,366 --> 00:43:44,326
improbable, must be the truth.
842
00:43:46,316 --> 00:43:46,866
What's going on?
843
00:43:46,866 --> 00:43:47,246
Analysts?
844
00:43:47,776 --> 00:43:49,036
My name is Manny San Pedro.
845
00:43:49,066 --> 00:43:51,476
I'm the technology director for ACA.
846
00:43:51,846 --> 00:43:55,726
And here is my public service
announcement for analysts.
847
00:43:56,496 --> 00:43:58,826
Don't become overly reliant on Excel.
848
00:43:58,936 --> 00:44:01,176
Use it to analyze and
break down your data.
849
00:44:01,466 --> 00:44:03,076
It's a fantastic tool.
850
00:44:03,586 --> 00:44:04,256
Fantastic.
851
00:44:04,276 --> 00:44:08,176
And it's free as part of the
Microsoft office offering, but
852
00:44:08,216 --> 00:44:10,076
don't use it as a database.
853
00:44:10,166 --> 00:44:12,196
Use a database as a database.
854
00:44:12,766 --> 00:44:15,136
Connect to the database with Excel.
855
00:44:15,801 --> 00:44:21,941
And then use it for your pivoting,
for all your slicing and dicing, even
856
00:44:21,961 --> 00:44:27,451
developing your dashboard, but again,
don't use Excel for everything because
857
00:44:27,791 --> 00:44:29,581
it may not be the best tool for you.
858
00:44:30,596 --> 00:44:34,896
Hi, I'm Svetlana Gubin, Business
Analyst from Oakland Police Department.
859
00:44:34,926 --> 00:44:40,516
And my advice, don't be afraid
to discover something new.
860
00:44:40,556 --> 00:44:47,126
Just try, do some small steps, find
the people who can support you, and
861
00:44:47,136 --> 00:44:53,206
it will help you in a regular life,
in your future job, and you will be
862
00:44:53,326 --> 00:44:56,746
surprised how more doors will open to
863
00:44:56,746 --> 00:44:57,811
you.
864
00:45:03,567 --> 00:45:06,837
So I see here that you and your
team were one of the finalists for
865
00:45:06,837 --> 00:45:12,567
the Goldstein Awards, and you also
won the Neighborhood Tilly Award,
866
00:45:12,657 --> 00:45:14,427
which is named after Nick Tilly.
867
00:45:14,607 --> 00:45:18,057
And for those that don't know,
Nick Tilly is essentially the
868
00:45:18,057 --> 00:45:19,632
Herman Goldstein of the uk.
869
00:45:19,852 --> 00:45:21,033
Is if correct,
870
00:45:21,183 --> 00:45:21,633
yes.
871
00:45:21,683 --> 00:45:21,893
Yeah.
872
00:45:21,893 --> 00:45:23,783
I mean, Nick, Nick is a wonderful guy.
873
00:45:24,033 --> 00:45:28,573
Very kind and very generous with
his time, like so many people.
874
00:45:28,573 --> 00:45:30,523
That's one thing I have to
say about the world of pop.
875
00:45:30,913 --> 00:45:33,883
There are so many people in
it that are just desperate for
876
00:45:33,883 --> 00:45:36,313
everyone else to get it to.
877
00:45:36,783 --> 00:45:38,193
, To see what they see.
878
00:45:38,463 --> 00:45:41,703
And I think I didn't see it to start
off with it takes time obviously, but
879
00:45:41,703 --> 00:45:44,943
there's a moment where you start to see,
okay, I get the perspective of this.
880
00:45:44,943 --> 00:45:47,763
I get why these people are so crazy
about this topic that they, that
881
00:45:47,763 --> 00:45:49,023
they want everyone else to do it.
882
00:45:49,023 --> 00:45:52,203
But, and that's the truth really, is that
there are so many people out there, like
883
00:45:52,203 --> 00:45:56,863
Nick and I mentioned Adrian and Karen
earlier John Eck Julie Wartel, who I
884
00:45:56,863 --> 00:45:58,853
know has been a guest on, this podcast.
885
00:45:59,123 --> 00:46:02,393
There are so many people out there that
are willing to give up their time to talk.
886
00:46:02,393 --> 00:46:05,603
Just, just to chat about it and
say, you know what, what, what are
887
00:46:05,603 --> 00:46:07,133
you struggling with at the moment?
888
00:46:07,133 --> 00:46:08,663
And give you a different perspective.
889
00:46:08,663 --> 00:46:12,803
And I think for me, over the course of
the last six years or so, working in
890
00:46:12,803 --> 00:46:16,643
specifically within, within pop, that's
just been invaluable because quite
891
00:46:16,643 --> 00:46:19,258
often it's, it's quite an isolating
time when you're sat there mm-hmm.
892
00:46:19,338 --> 00:46:20,483
On your own and you're kind of.
893
00:46:21,368 --> 00:46:23,498
Questioning these things again with logic.
894
00:46:23,528 --> 00:46:26,888
'cause you're looking at it thinking,
ah, this surely this doesn't make
895
00:46:26,888 --> 00:46:28,778
sense why we are doing it like this.
896
00:46:28,838 --> 00:46:30,098
Am I the only one thinking this?
897
00:46:30,338 --> 00:46:34,748
But often you don't have anyone else
to turn to in your organization who is
898
00:46:34,748 --> 00:46:36,218
looking at it through the same lens.
899
00:46:36,218 --> 00:46:40,088
So, so many people in that world that
that I owe a lot to, even in this
900
00:46:40,088 --> 00:46:42,928
kinda short time relatively short
time, it doesn't feel like it for me.
901
00:46:42,928 --> 00:46:45,778
It feels like it's taken over my life
for the last six years and it probably
902
00:46:45,778 --> 00:46:50,048
will continue to, but big kudos to,
to all of the people within, within
903
00:46:50,048 --> 00:46:51,728
this field that continue to drive it.
904
00:46:51,908 --> 00:46:52,058
Yeah.
905
00:46:52,178 --> 00:46:56,618
So just to you, you eventually move on to.
906
00:46:56,688 --> 00:46:56,778
Sure.
907
00:46:57,798 --> 00:47:02,928
I, I guess what went into that
decision to change departments?
908
00:47:03,088 --> 00:47:04,678
So it was purely personal.
909
00:47:04,888 --> 00:47:04,978
Yeah.
910
00:47:05,028 --> 00:47:10,278
We we moved to the Midlands, which is as,
as it sounds, in the middle of the uk.
911
00:47:11,668 --> 00:47:13,978
Well played as opposed, as
opposed to in the south.
912
00:47:13,978 --> 00:47:16,918
We were in the south before
my, me and my, my wife.
913
00:47:16,918 --> 00:47:18,838
Not my wife at the time,
but my partner at the time.
914
00:47:19,328 --> 00:47:20,348
We moved to the Midlands.
915
00:47:20,453 --> 00:47:23,853
She was studying her doctorate
in clinical psychology.
916
00:47:23,983 --> 00:47:27,273
She's now a a clinical psychologist
at the University of Leicester.
917
00:47:27,303 --> 00:47:29,583
So that's sort of bank smack
in the middle of the country.
918
00:47:29,913 --> 00:47:31,323
And that's why we moved there.
919
00:47:31,323 --> 00:47:32,853
And I was kind of just looking around.
920
00:47:33,123 --> 00:47:35,373
I was still working for,
sorry, remotely at that time.
921
00:47:35,373 --> 00:47:39,563
And I was looking around for similar,
similar jobs and thinking I'm, I'm,
922
00:47:39,563 --> 00:47:43,163
I'm not gonna luck out twice and be
able to continue this career because
923
00:47:43,163 --> 00:47:47,513
it's such a niche field of policing and
what am I gonna have to do otherwise?
924
00:47:47,513 --> 00:47:50,843
And I saw the, the problem solving
tactical advisor, but actually team
925
00:47:50,843 --> 00:47:53,993
manager for the problem solving
team appear for warwickshire,
926
00:47:53,993 --> 00:47:57,593
which was their, the base was
15 minutes from my home address.
927
00:47:57,953 --> 00:47:58,133
Mm-hmm.
928
00:47:58,433 --> 00:48:00,803
And it got even stranger when
I emailed them and asked.
929
00:48:01,113 --> 00:48:02,433
Could I speak to someone about this?
930
00:48:02,463 --> 00:48:05,073
And they said, oh yeah, here's the
chief inspector that's in charge.
931
00:48:05,073 --> 00:48:08,253
And I emailed this person and I
said, oh, this is where I live.
932
00:48:08,253 --> 00:48:09,153
And he said, are you joking?
933
00:48:09,153 --> 00:48:10,203
I live there as well.
934
00:48:11,073 --> 00:48:14,223
And it turned out if I'd cut down
the trees in the back of my garden,
935
00:48:14,223 --> 00:48:16,833
in the back of his garden, I could
have seen the back of his house.
936
00:48:16,923 --> 00:48:17,613
Nice.
937
00:48:17,823 --> 00:48:20,103
So it was, it was kind of
just a match made in heaven.
938
00:48:20,103 --> 00:48:23,103
It was, you couldn't make it up really
to be able to continue working in problem
939
00:48:23,103 --> 00:48:26,283
solving, but move up to the next role,
if you like, in terms of managing that
940
00:48:26,283 --> 00:48:29,073
team, but also be located close to home.
941
00:48:29,103 --> 00:48:32,373
I mean if, if I, I may not be a
believer, but that might have been
942
00:48:32,373 --> 00:48:33,783
the moment someone was looking down.
943
00:48:34,773 --> 00:48:35,133
Yeah.
944
00:48:35,313 --> 00:48:40,533
So, as you mentioned going,
getting into that supervisory
945
00:48:40,533 --> 00:48:44,793
role, now you are more strategic.
946
00:48:45,648 --> 00:48:49,938
In your thought process
for problem solving.
947
00:48:50,028 --> 00:48:54,798
So talk to us a little bit about some
of the things that you implemented and
948
00:48:54,798 --> 00:48:56,988
that you, you achieved in this role.
949
00:48:57,108 --> 00:49:00,978
So I think the main difference really
was that perspective, like I said
950
00:49:01,158 --> 00:49:04,518
earlier, around not looking for
the single individual plan like I
951
00:49:04,518 --> 00:49:07,578
was kind of doing before, and just
thinking about what I was doing there.
952
00:49:07,578 --> 00:49:10,398
And then it was thinking more
about how do we progress this?
953
00:49:10,398 --> 00:49:15,648
So in two, three years time, there is more
a structure, it's happening more readily.
954
00:49:15,648 --> 00:49:19,308
People are starting plans
freely and working on this.
955
00:49:19,548 --> 00:49:20,838
So that was my goal really.
956
00:49:20,838 --> 00:49:24,048
So it was much more around the
kind of recording processes.
957
00:49:24,703 --> 00:49:31,673
The coordination of the efforts evaluating
plans, making sure that they were,
958
00:49:31,733 --> 00:49:34,683
and when I say plans, I mean problem
oriented policing plans, problem solving
959
00:49:34,683 --> 00:49:35,943
plans, whatever you wanna call them.
960
00:49:36,223 --> 00:49:41,273
Following the R model making sure
they were visible making sure that
961
00:49:41,303 --> 00:49:46,463
leaders were aware of where the plans
were and the progress of those plans.
962
00:49:46,463 --> 00:49:49,823
I think I always say that the most
meaningful single one thing that I
963
00:49:49,823 --> 00:49:53,753
did in that time was create a a rag.
964
00:49:53,813 --> 00:49:55,313
Do you have Rag in America?
965
00:49:55,363 --> 00:49:56,173
Gimme more information.
966
00:49:56,778 --> 00:49:57,738
Red, amber, green?
967
00:49:58,338 --> 00:49:58,938
I don't think so.
968
00:49:58,943 --> 00:50:00,683
I don't, I don't, I don't follow it.
969
00:50:00,683 --> 00:50:00,783
So in UK
970
00:50:00,783 --> 00:50:04,488
policing, in UK policing,
everything is rag rated basically.
971
00:50:04,488 --> 00:50:08,898
In terms of, we, we feel very safe
with our rag rating system of to what
972
00:50:08,898 --> 00:50:10,818
extent is this risky or a problem?
973
00:50:10,818 --> 00:50:12,198
Red, amber, or green.
974
00:50:12,618 --> 00:50:12,888
Oh, okay.
975
00:50:12,938 --> 00:50:18,953
So, so to be able to rag rate progress
of that plan, so not just was it being
976
00:50:18,953 --> 00:50:21,983
worked on, I think this is one of
the, the little minutiae things that
977
00:50:21,988 --> 00:50:26,633
the, the traps that police forces fall
into is where they will rag in the uk.
978
00:50:26,633 --> 00:50:27,683
They will rag rate.
979
00:50:28,053 --> 00:50:30,903
A plan based on whether
or not it's been updated.
980
00:50:31,053 --> 00:50:34,113
But that doesn't necessarily mean
anything because you could just
981
00:50:34,113 --> 00:50:36,033
put one line and you will see it.
982
00:50:36,453 --> 00:50:40,173
There'll just be one line saying
plan is ongoing, and then suddenly
983
00:50:40,173 --> 00:50:41,613
it'll be, ah, this is in the green.
984
00:50:41,643 --> 00:50:42,393
This is all good.
985
00:50:42,393 --> 00:50:43,623
We don't have to worry about that.
986
00:50:43,933 --> 00:50:47,473
So we would actually, we enacted
a manual process whereby we would
987
00:50:47,473 --> 00:50:49,183
be reviewing the plans monthly.
988
00:50:49,853 --> 00:50:53,453
And feeding into the machine,
if you like, to let people know.
989
00:50:53,453 --> 00:50:56,963
And there was a then a strategic
meeting to be able to highlight
990
00:50:57,183 --> 00:50:58,683
which plans were going astray.
991
00:50:58,683 --> 00:51:01,533
And we would have our recommendations
there as to why it was going
992
00:51:01,533 --> 00:51:03,363
astray and what support was needed.
993
00:51:03,603 --> 00:51:07,333
And it's something as simple and
straightforward and, not confusing
994
00:51:07,333 --> 00:51:11,053
at all as that, that actually made
the most difference because it meant
995
00:51:11,053 --> 00:51:14,443
that people knew and, and that they
were being checked and there was a
996
00:51:14,443 --> 00:51:19,533
level of accountability and it do I
wish it was all carrot and no stick?
997
00:51:19,533 --> 00:51:19,803
Yeah.
998
00:51:19,833 --> 00:51:20,043
Yeah.
999
00:51:20,043 --> 00:51:20,553
I do.
1000
00:51:20,553 --> 00:51:22,533
And did everyone come
straight away with that?
1001
00:51:22,533 --> 00:51:22,803
No.
1002
00:51:22,863 --> 00:51:26,913
No, they didn't because they tried to get
around it by, by doing, just as I'd said
1003
00:51:26,913 --> 00:51:32,083
by, by sort of last minute.com, putting
putting an update on saying, there you go.
1004
00:51:32,083 --> 00:51:34,393
I, I've put an update on, we
are working on it, but obviously
1005
00:51:34,393 --> 00:51:35,233
from our point of view.
1006
00:51:35,558 --> 00:51:39,128
Putting an update on one day before the
deadline, each month wasn't good enough.
1007
00:51:39,128 --> 00:51:40,508
That wasn't showing progress.
1008
00:51:40,508 --> 00:51:44,288
So meaningful little things like
that made actually a huge difference.
1009
00:51:44,288 --> 00:51:48,608
But that accountability structure
is so important to the longevity
1010
00:51:48,608 --> 00:51:49,658
of Pop to be able to know.
1011
00:51:50,653 --> 00:51:54,253
Where the plans are that anyone could
pull them up at one moment and have a
1012
00:51:54,253 --> 00:51:58,123
look at them and audit them and check how
they're doing and give recommendations
1013
00:51:58,123 --> 00:52:02,773
for how to improve it compared to what
a lot of organizations have in the UK
1014
00:52:02,773 --> 00:52:06,683
where it's a bit more muddled and there
is a bit of confusion sometimes around
1015
00:52:06,683 --> 00:52:11,183
where the plans are or which, which of
the latest template, things like that.
1016
00:52:11,393 --> 00:52:14,483
You'll go into some forces and this is
me generalizing obviously, 'cause there
1017
00:52:14,483 --> 00:52:17,393
are some forces that are much better
at it, but there you'll go into some
1018
00:52:17,393 --> 00:52:21,203
forces and you'll find six or seven
different ways of people recording it.
1019
00:52:21,623 --> 00:52:23,363
And that's just a minefield.
1020
00:52:23,363 --> 00:52:28,133
If you are trying to embed this as a
concept, you need a degree of consistency.
1021
00:52:28,133 --> 00:52:30,323
You don't want them all
to look exactly the same.
1022
00:52:30,353 --> 00:52:34,193
Like there needs to be a degree of
flexibility, but it also, you need
1023
00:52:34,193 --> 00:52:38,898
to, at at the drop of a moment, be
able to find where the plans are.
1024
00:52:38,968 --> 00:52:41,698
Comment on them and be able to see
sort of how they're progressing.
1025
00:52:41,698 --> 00:52:43,288
So that kind of thing.
1026
00:52:43,288 --> 00:52:46,978
In terms of the, the, the meeting
structures around accountability,
1027
00:52:47,218 --> 00:52:51,908
making the sure the plans were visible
standardizing, training things like that.
1028
00:52:51,908 --> 00:52:55,638
I would run a monthly webinar once a
month where I would talk about different
1029
00:52:55,638 --> 00:53:00,148
pro topic, whether that was a specific
problem or more things like how to
1030
00:53:00,148 --> 00:53:03,278
create surveys, how to use excel better.
1031
00:53:03,308 --> 00:53:06,638
Things like that, that would actually
be meaningfully useful for people.
1032
00:53:06,688 --> 00:53:10,593
Yeah, it's interesting , 'cause what
it sounds like now is if we think back
1033
00:53:10,593 --> 00:53:16,443
of when you first started, you were
creating everything and it seems like now.
1034
00:53:17,038 --> 00:53:18,508
Things are established.
1035
00:53:18,508 --> 00:53:24,928
The, the, the problem solving process
at the department is something well
1036
00:53:24,928 --> 00:53:31,018
ingrained in just part of the everyday
work at the police department.
1037
00:53:31,018 --> 00:53:36,718
You have all these, , different
programs, projects going on, and
1038
00:53:36,718 --> 00:53:39,178
it seems to be part of the culture.
1039
00:53:39,178 --> 00:53:41,158
Is, is that a fair statement?
1040
00:53:41,548 --> 00:53:45,598
I think I'd love to say that that
was exactly how it is and, and
1041
00:53:45,598 --> 00:53:47,848
that everything works perfectly.
1042
00:53:48,778 --> 00:53:52,408
Would I say that it's, it came on
leaps and bounds in that time to
1043
00:53:52,408 --> 00:53:54,748
somewhere a lot on the journey?
1044
00:53:54,748 --> 00:53:55,978
Yes, it definitely did.
1045
00:53:56,188 --> 00:54:01,318
It didn't get to where I would envisage
it ideally getting to, but that's a
1046
00:54:01,378 --> 00:54:04,248
long anyone that talks, anyone that
you talk to in the problem world,
1047
00:54:04,338 --> 00:54:07,938
policing world is gonna say we,
that's dreamland years down the line
1048
00:54:07,938 --> 00:54:10,908
where everything systematically works
together and everyone gets their role.
1049
00:54:10,908 --> 00:54:13,878
But would I say on a small scale,
what you've said is accurate
1050
00:54:13,938 --> 00:54:15,078
compared to where we were?
1051
00:54:15,108 --> 00:54:15,678
Yes.
1052
00:54:15,678 --> 00:54:19,728
Because when I came into it, there
wasn't any real consistency in,
1053
00:54:19,758 --> 00:54:21,288
in, in how things were recorded.
1054
00:54:21,288 --> 00:54:23,208
People thought they were
recording it the right way, but
1055
00:54:23,208 --> 00:54:24,318
when you went and looked at it.
1056
00:54:24,663 --> 00:54:25,683
There were various issues.
1057
00:54:25,693 --> 00:54:29,083
There was, I remember one issue
with the fact that with the system,
1058
00:54:29,653 --> 00:54:32,953
I, as the central person for this,
couldn't see any of the plans
1059
00:54:32,953 --> 00:54:34,303
the way that they were recorded.
1060
00:54:34,753 --> 00:54:38,923
There was a restriction whereby the
people that created the, the database and
1061
00:54:38,923 --> 00:54:43,943
owned it had had a way of saying, oh no
you need to pay more money if you want
1062
00:54:43,943 --> 00:54:47,963
to open up access to ev, to everyone or
for select people to be able to see it.
1063
00:54:48,263 --> 00:54:49,643
So that meant it was literally hidden.
1064
00:54:49,643 --> 00:54:51,113
It was almost like behind a paywall.
1065
00:54:51,533 --> 00:54:52,973
We couldn't, we couldn't even see it.
1066
00:54:52,973 --> 00:54:55,943
Even though it was my bread and butter, it
was the stuff that I should be reviewing.
1067
00:54:55,943 --> 00:54:57,983
So that's the kind of
standard of where we were.
1068
00:54:57,983 --> 00:55:01,223
So I suppose if you made that comparison
to where we were and then where we
1069
00:55:01,223 --> 00:55:02,693
got to, it was a massive change.
1070
00:55:02,723 --> 00:55:06,113
But we're always dreaming of these
kind of perfect scenarios where
1071
00:55:06,113 --> 00:55:07,673
everything is working perfectly.
1072
00:55:08,093 --> 00:55:08,393
Yeah.
1073
00:55:08,633 --> 00:55:10,108
Now the pushback that you get.
1074
00:55:10,898 --> 00:55:16,778
During your time here, do you feel
it's similar to what you hear from
1075
00:55:16,778 --> 00:55:22,208
other colleagues, or do you feel that
some of the pushback, you had at this
1076
00:55:22,208 --> 00:55:24,243
department was unique to this department?
1077
00:55:25,153 --> 00:55:28,963
I think the more that you talk to people
in this world, the more you realize
1078
00:55:29,023 --> 00:55:31,273
they have the same problems everywhere.
1079
00:55:31,273 --> 00:55:36,313
Now I'm obviously primarily speaking
for the UK here, but I would, I would
1080
00:55:36,313 --> 00:55:39,853
guess that in America you're gonna
see a lot of the similar things.
1081
00:55:39,853 --> 00:55:41,233
Maybe there'll be nuance differences.
1082
00:55:41,413 --> 00:55:45,353
So we are talking like, a systematic
way of recording it that says
1083
00:55:45,353 --> 00:55:48,413
this is important and this is how
we do it, and we can access and,
1084
00:55:48,413 --> 00:55:49,943
and, and hold people accountable.
1085
00:55:49,943 --> 00:55:54,463
That accountability structure
not having that makes it really
1086
00:55:54,463 --> 00:55:56,473
hard to actually get that buy-in.
1087
00:55:56,473 --> 00:56:00,658
I, I'd recommend anyone reading up on,
on stratify policing, Rachel Rachel
1088
00:56:00,658 --> 00:56:04,553
Santos previously, Rachel Boba done a
lot of work in that really demonstrates
1089
00:56:04,553 --> 00:56:06,603
the importance of of accountability.
1090
00:56:06,603 --> 00:56:08,853
I think the actual physical pushback.
1091
00:56:08,913 --> 00:56:12,423
In terms of the literal pushback as
opposed to just some of the challenges
1092
00:56:12,423 --> 00:56:16,953
around the culture is probably
again, you're gonna see different
1093
00:56:16,953 --> 00:56:18,603
things, but, but similar things.
1094
00:56:18,603 --> 00:56:22,503
So you'll get, for every 10 or 15
officers you get, unfortunately,
1095
00:56:22,503 --> 00:56:25,473
you'll probably get at least one
who wants to sit at the back of the
1096
00:56:25,473 --> 00:56:28,953
classroom with their, with their hands
folded, their arms folded, kind of
1097
00:56:28,953 --> 00:56:30,963
saying, this isn't real police work.
1098
00:56:30,963 --> 00:56:32,253
This is fluffy stuff.
1099
00:56:32,533 --> 00:56:34,543
We should be out there
nicking the baddies.
1100
00:56:34,603 --> 00:56:37,528
Rather than doing this, prevention
side of things, I mean, through.
1101
00:56:38,008 --> 00:56:41,308
I always allude people back
to the, the PAL principles.
1102
00:56:41,308 --> 00:56:45,313
So, so Robert Pill, who founded
the Metropolitan Police Service, so
1103
00:56:45,318 --> 00:56:47,278
the first police service in the uk.
1104
00:56:47,653 --> 00:56:48,073
Mm-hmm.
1105
00:56:48,173 --> 00:56:50,543
The founding principles not
actually written by him.
1106
00:56:50,543 --> 00:56:54,533
Everyone always quotes, oh, his PAL
principles, but they're actually written
1107
00:56:54,533 --> 00:56:59,103
by a historian, some over a hundred
years later summarizing the work that not
1108
00:56:59,103 --> 00:57:01,143
he, but his team had actually written.
1109
00:57:01,143 --> 00:57:04,653
So I think he was heavily involved,
but maybe slightly inaccurate.
1110
00:57:04,903 --> 00:57:07,993
In all these years later we say that
they were his, but the, one of the
1111
00:57:07,993 --> 00:57:10,863
principles there, the first one is
just to pro the goal of policing
1112
00:57:10,863 --> 00:57:12,218
is to prevent crime and mm-hmm.
1113
00:57:12,298 --> 00:57:16,393
And the other most important one is the
measure of police success is the absence
1114
00:57:16,393 --> 00:57:17,863
of crime, not the visible evidence.
1115
00:57:17,863 --> 00:57:18,913
Of police action.
1116
00:57:18,913 --> 00:57:22,333
So not how many arrests we make,
not how many stop searches we do,
1117
00:57:22,333 --> 00:57:24,433
but actually the so what afterwards.
1118
00:57:24,673 --> 00:57:27,953
So I think there's always a good
challenge to those people around
1119
00:57:27,983 --> 00:57:29,303
what policing ought to be about.
1120
00:57:29,303 --> 00:57:31,913
But you always get that, there's
always that underlying tone of,
1121
00:57:32,003 --> 00:57:33,653
no, that's not why I signed up.
1122
00:57:33,923 --> 00:57:37,333
Lots of lots of cops signed up
because they want to catch a burglar
1123
00:57:37,333 --> 00:57:40,183
at two o'clock in the morning coming
out the back of someone's house.
1124
00:57:40,183 --> 00:57:42,823
That that's why, that's
why they want to do it.
1125
00:57:42,883 --> 00:57:45,583
So they need to be kind of
won over by the leadership.
1126
00:57:45,923 --> 00:57:49,613
And the leadership needs to be able
to sing, sing the right hymn, hymn
1127
00:57:49,613 --> 00:57:53,023
and theme around around problem
solving and, and prevention.
1128
00:57:53,263 --> 00:57:57,013
I think a lot of forces say the
right things around prevention first.
1129
00:57:57,013 --> 00:57:58,453
I think not as many forces.
1130
00:57:58,673 --> 00:58:00,623
Are actually truly prevention first.
1131
00:58:00,623 --> 00:58:04,553
I think if you were to look at
training, for example, and, and,
1132
00:58:04,613 --> 00:58:08,663
and compare how much training
is put into, say, investigation
1133
00:58:08,663 --> 00:58:10,463
standards compared to prevention.
1134
00:58:10,493 --> 00:58:12,743
I mean, there's just no comparison.
1135
00:58:13,023 --> 00:58:16,833
Sometimes enforce prevention will
have a warning with, with new
1136
00:58:16,833 --> 00:58:19,983
officers there'll be an occasional
hour here and an hour there.
1137
00:58:20,013 --> 00:58:22,413
Again, that's gonna vary
heavily depending on.
1138
00:58:23,033 --> 00:58:25,553
Who, which force it is
and, and who the leader is.
1139
00:58:25,553 --> 00:58:28,313
And some leaders that have risen
through the ranks that have done pop
1140
00:58:28,313 --> 00:58:32,213
and get it and see the value in it have
such amazing success in their forces.
1141
00:58:32,643 --> 00:58:36,333
And then sadly they leave and,
and then your new leadership comes
1142
00:58:36,333 --> 00:58:37,983
in and, and changes everything.
1143
00:58:37,983 --> 00:58:41,223
So I think culture is,
culture is a huge thing.
1144
00:58:41,223 --> 00:58:42,543
There's, there's many elements to it.
1145
00:58:42,543 --> 00:58:46,593
The reactive, the enforcements, the, the,
how you measure success, like I said,
1146
00:58:46,593 --> 00:58:48,363
around the measure of police success.
1147
00:58:48,843 --> 00:58:52,533
But it also allows people to have
the capacity and the resourcing
1148
00:58:52,533 --> 00:58:55,113
to be able to do this, to, to,
to be able to have the time.
1149
00:58:55,143 --> 00:58:58,773
That's one of the most common things
we hear about the, is the, the,
1150
00:58:58,773 --> 00:59:03,303
there's not enough time to do this
work or support from analysts really.
1151
00:59:03,583 --> 00:59:05,653
Analysts are absolutely
essential to this work.
1152
00:59:05,653 --> 00:59:10,033
And, and that e even though it's obvious
to, to an outsider who, so I guess
1153
00:59:10,033 --> 00:59:14,308
to yourself does, it seems obvious, I
would imagine that analysts are, are
1154
00:59:14,353 --> 00:59:18,763
kind of core to the role of problem
solving and problem with policing.
1155
00:59:19,443 --> 00:59:23,133
But inside, at least within many
police forces in the uk that
1156
00:59:23,133 --> 00:59:24,843
doesn't seem quite as apparent.
1157
00:59:25,173 --> 00:59:29,763
Like it, the analysis gets put
back on the officers all the time.
1158
00:59:30,063 --> 00:59:33,963
The whole responsibility of the plan
ends up sitting with one officer.
1159
00:59:34,333 --> 00:59:37,093
That's not the way to do problem
oriented policing, really.
1160
00:59:37,303 --> 00:59:41,563
I, and we talked a little bit about
this yesterday in the prep call.
1161
00:59:41,623 --> 00:59:49,633
I, I think one of the issues
with problem oriented policing is
1162
00:59:49,873 --> 00:59:51,813
that it can be too complicated.
1163
00:59:52,203 --> 00:59:52,383
Mm-hmm.
1164
00:59:52,573 --> 01:00:00,133
It can get bogged down into the
idea of having everything be test,
1165
01:00:00,133 --> 01:00:04,963
have everything, be documented,
have it, it's can be very tedious.
1166
01:00:05,173 --> 01:00:05,293
Mm-hmm.
1167
01:00:05,533 --> 01:00:10,763
And it gets into more of the
academic, project, if you will, as
1168
01:00:10,763 --> 01:00:13,283
opposed to a department project.
1169
01:00:13,433 --> 01:00:22,743
And I, I do believe that there's analysts
at police departments that if you ask
1170
01:00:22,743 --> 01:00:27,723
them if they want to be part of that,
they're like, no, I, I rather, I'd rather
1171
01:00:27,723 --> 01:00:34,563
go do tactical analysis or intelligence
analysis or even data analysis.
1172
01:00:34,983 --> 01:00:38,973
. They're not signing up
to do this academic.
1173
01:00:39,263 --> 01:00:40,733
Type project.
1174
01:00:40,803 --> 01:00:46,473
So it doesn't surprise me that you have
a scenario where there's analysts pushing
1175
01:00:46,473 --> 01:00:50,283
it off of their desk onto somebody else's.
1176
01:00:50,463 --> 01:00:54,933
I think I, I think that's for most of
the analysts that I've worked with,
1177
01:00:54,933 --> 01:00:59,463
where they've kind of had that light
bulb moment, they do get past that
1178
01:00:59,463 --> 01:01:01,563
and they see the, the benefits of it.
1179
01:01:01,623 --> 01:01:05,073
I, I get what you mean is that it's
what we call the is it sexy enough?
1180
01:01:05,163 --> 01:01:05,253
Mm-hmm.
1181
01:01:05,493 --> 01:01:07,773
Saying, oh, I've
prevented this much crime.
1182
01:01:07,773 --> 01:01:11,283
Is that as sexy as, as being able
to say, we arrested this person?
1183
01:01:11,373 --> 01:01:11,613
Sure.
1184
01:01:11,618 --> 01:01:15,303
And, and having that drive of we got
them that moment where they come in
1185
01:01:15,303 --> 01:01:17,313
and, and there's that kind of conclusion
1186
01:01:17,613 --> 01:01:17,703
mm-hmm.
1187
01:01:17,943 --> 01:01:18,063
To an
1188
01:01:18,063 --> 01:01:18,723
investigation.
1189
01:01:18,748 --> 01:01:21,393
It's, it's often
open-ended problem solving.
1190
01:01:21,393 --> 01:01:23,523
We've prevented it a bit,
well, when do we stop?
1191
01:01:23,703 --> 01:01:24,423
When do we not?
1192
01:01:24,423 --> 01:01:24,933
That kind of thing.
1193
01:01:24,933 --> 01:01:28,443
I think you're probably, you're right
around the, the academic thing, I think.
1194
01:01:28,683 --> 01:01:32,643
Some, some perspectives can take
it too far that way and it makes
1195
01:01:32,643 --> 01:01:36,663
it inaccessible to people that we
get caught up in, like you say, in
1196
01:01:36,663 --> 01:01:38,733
everything being absolutely perfect.
1197
01:01:39,123 --> 01:01:42,423
I think the other thing to really
think about from an analyst's
1198
01:01:42,423 --> 01:01:46,983
perspective is seeing their
role as a part of the core team.
1199
01:01:46,983 --> 01:01:50,433
What I see quite often when
analysts are asked to support
1200
01:01:50,433 --> 01:01:54,933
with problem solving in the UK is
that they're an external resource.
1201
01:01:54,933 --> 01:01:59,403
They're somewhat sat at headquarters or
inevitably working from home now, but,
1202
01:01:59,403 --> 01:02:03,873
but, but not based in the local teams
where the, where the other, the rest of
1203
01:02:03,873 --> 01:02:08,013
the people working on this problem are and
potentially the partner agencies as well.
1204
01:02:08,013 --> 01:02:10,383
In, in, in areas where
they work closely together.
1205
01:02:10,783 --> 01:02:11,803
They're separate.
1206
01:02:11,863 --> 01:02:14,683
They get requested via an
email, potentially to their
1207
01:02:14,683 --> 01:02:16,663
supervisor that gets passed down.
1208
01:02:16,933 --> 01:02:19,513
They don't have necessarily any contacts.
1209
01:02:19,723 --> 01:02:22,453
Sometimes with the officer doing the work.
1210
01:02:22,453 --> 01:02:24,313
Who's gonna do the interventions?
1211
01:02:24,703 --> 01:02:25,238
They get asked.
1212
01:02:25,578 --> 01:02:28,908
Something quite broad and
vague around this problem.
1213
01:02:28,908 --> 01:02:33,498
Could you do some analysis, whatever
that is some wizardry around the data.
1214
01:02:33,498 --> 01:02:37,068
Can you create some of those nice
shiny maps and and tables and graphs
1215
01:02:37,068 --> 01:02:38,448
and things that you've done before?
1216
01:02:38,838 --> 01:02:41,743
They put this document together,
they send it on, and guess what?
1217
01:02:42,413 --> 01:02:43,793
They never hear anything back.
1218
01:02:44,123 --> 01:02:45,503
They get no feedback.
1219
01:02:45,683 --> 01:02:48,353
They don't know whether it was
helpful or not, and then they
1220
01:02:48,353 --> 01:02:49,553
can't improve on the future.
1221
01:02:49,553 --> 01:02:54,113
And, and, and if I did that, would
I want to do that again every time?
1222
01:02:54,113 --> 01:02:54,383
No.
1223
01:02:54,383 --> 01:02:55,673
I think that's horrible.
1224
01:02:55,763 --> 01:02:55,853
Mm-hmm.
1225
01:02:56,093 --> 01:02:58,583
I'd be like, why are you asking
me to keep doing this stuff?
1226
01:02:58,613 --> 01:03:00,413
I don't know whether it's any good or not.
1227
01:03:00,473 --> 01:03:01,583
Is it helping at all?
1228
01:03:01,793 --> 01:03:05,693
Whereas actually the, the kind
of the vision of what this is, is
1229
01:03:05,753 --> 01:03:07,673
the analyst is part of the team.
1230
01:03:07,853 --> 01:03:09,863
They are part of the
team around that problem.
1231
01:03:10,223 --> 01:03:15,203
They have a pivotal role and they
need to work with the officers
1232
01:03:15,233 --> 01:03:19,523
and the partners collectively,
not this external resource and.
1233
01:03:19,913 --> 01:03:24,323
To see their suggestions and their
interventions actually implemented, I
1234
01:03:24,323 --> 01:03:28,163
think would be so much more rewarding
than, than, than often is the case at
1235
01:03:28,163 --> 01:03:32,363
the moment where for many analysts,
and again I'm generalizing here mm-hmm.
1236
01:03:32,603 --> 01:03:36,863
To what I've seen, I see many analysts
will not put recommendations on their
1237
01:03:36,863 --> 01:03:40,793
work in terms of interventions, or if
they do, it's an extra because they've
1238
01:03:40,793 --> 01:03:44,633
been told they have to put something in
or it, it looks good to put something in.
1239
01:03:44,993 --> 01:03:48,053
And when we do that, it's
inevitably very generic.
1240
01:03:48,323 --> 01:03:52,013
So it's sort of an, because it's an extra
to have, because they have no confidence
1241
01:03:52,013 --> 01:03:55,903
necessarily these things are gonna be
implemented because they haven't got they
1242
01:03:55,903 --> 01:03:59,323
haven't got some tangible evidence of
that happening before where they've worked
1243
01:03:59,323 --> 01:04:03,313
that closely with the team and they've
seen it implemented their own ideas.
1244
01:04:03,313 --> 01:04:07,003
So they, they chuck it on, you'll see
your patrol do some targeted patrols do
1245
01:04:07,003 --> 01:04:12,583
some engagement, have some multi-agency
partnership meetings, CCTV and lighting
1246
01:04:12,613 --> 01:04:16,583
will be the kind of classics that, that we
see time and time again, whereas actually.
1247
01:04:17,078 --> 01:04:19,688
What I wanna see is I
wanna see the handful of.
1248
01:04:20,048 --> 01:04:23,468
Tailored interventions that only
the analysts could have found.
1249
01:04:23,948 --> 01:04:28,058
The only analysts through reading
through meticulously all of those
1250
01:04:28,118 --> 01:04:32,828
previous crimes and calls and studying
them in, in great depth could have
1251
01:04:32,828 --> 01:04:35,618
picked out because they have a
different understanding of the problem.
1252
01:04:35,618 --> 01:04:38,678
And, and, and they're normally
the person that I want to know
1253
01:04:38,678 --> 01:04:42,158
the interventions of from the most
out of all of the people involved.
1254
01:04:42,548 --> 01:04:46,538
It's the analyst who spent time
working on that because they've
1255
01:04:46,538 --> 01:04:49,358
spent the last two weeks pouring
over these individual crimes.
1256
01:04:49,388 --> 01:04:51,068
They know them off the back of their hand.
1257
01:04:51,498 --> 01:04:52,638
They need, it's a classic one.
1258
01:04:52,638 --> 01:04:55,968
Every analyst back in the day was kind
of as, from what I'm told, was trained
1259
01:04:55,968 --> 01:04:59,808
in it, but it doesn't happen as readily
as it, as it should happen visiting the
1260
01:04:59,808 --> 01:05:05,778
locations at the time with the rest of
the team, walking that location, having
1261
01:05:05,778 --> 01:05:09,228
read through some of the crimes to, to
make sure it's targeted, that that just
1262
01:05:09,228 --> 01:05:10,818
as a one-off side thing is something.
1263
01:05:10,818 --> 01:05:14,518
I see so often people are so desperate
when they, when they get trained in
1264
01:05:14,518 --> 01:05:17,058
this to say, oh yes, we should do a
site visit, we should do a walk around.
1265
01:05:17,058 --> 01:05:17,448
They jumped.
1266
01:05:17,718 --> 01:05:20,328
Speak first, straight in and
say, let's go and do the work.
1267
01:05:20,358 --> 01:05:23,118
Walk around and I'm saying,
hold up just a second.
1268
01:05:23,118 --> 01:05:26,898
Can we have a bit of a look at the data
first before we just end up focusing on
1269
01:05:26,898 --> 01:05:30,573
that alley that everyone's obsessed around
this alley and you raised the question.
1270
01:05:31,308 --> 01:05:33,618
Is, has any crime actually
happened down this alley?
1271
01:05:33,618 --> 01:05:34,728
And we go, oh, we don't know.
1272
01:05:34,728 --> 01:05:36,188
But it looked bad didn't it?
1273
01:05:36,243 --> 01:05:38,858
It looked dingy, so that's
why we're focused on it.
1274
01:05:39,108 --> 01:05:41,658
But yeah, the role, the role that
analysts can, can play is huge.
1275
01:05:41,658 --> 01:05:46,818
And I think it's the, the experience
of, of doing it in a good environment.
1276
01:05:46,848 --> 01:05:50,208
I think one of the barriers and
opportunities that Aiden SIBO and
1277
01:05:50,208 --> 01:05:54,498
colleagues raised in, in their bit of work
around England and Wales, police forces
1278
01:05:54,558 --> 01:05:59,298
and the barriers to pop one of the, well,
one of the selling points they said was
1279
01:05:59,298 --> 01:06:01,428
that it was morale boosting for officers.
1280
01:06:01,458 --> 01:06:04,548
And I think it definitely has the
potential to be, but I think it also
1281
01:06:04,548 --> 01:06:07,698
has the potential to be the opposite,
like you've kind of described.
1282
01:06:07,788 --> 01:06:07,878
Mm-hmm.
1283
01:06:08,118 --> 01:06:12,498
That actually, if you continue down
that path of not resourcing it, not not
1284
01:06:12,498 --> 01:06:17,978
supporting it and just playing at it or
like in the case of the analyst there.
1285
01:06:18,263 --> 01:06:20,783
Being requested to do something,
but not really feeling part of the
1286
01:06:20,783 --> 01:06:24,413
team and not being able to see their
interventions, their ideas come to life.
1287
01:06:24,803 --> 01:06:27,953
Then I think it, it doesn't just
have a, a, a neutral effect.
1288
01:06:27,953 --> 01:06:31,258
I think it would have a negative effect
and actually reduce morale and, and
1289
01:06:31,493 --> 01:06:34,463
reduce people's likelihood to want
to do pot because inevitably they'd
1290
01:06:34,463 --> 01:06:36,173
think, well, what a load of rubbish.
1291
01:06:36,623 --> 01:06:36,833
Yeah.
1292
01:06:36,833 --> 01:06:41,183
Well, I, I think too, it's the
difference of being asking them for
1293
01:06:41,183 --> 01:06:44,543
input versus telling them to do it right.
1294
01:06:44,573 --> 01:06:44,723
Yeah.
1295
01:06:44,723 --> 01:06:48,923
And that's the attitude of both of
those scenarios is gonna be quite
1296
01:06:48,983 --> 01:06:54,683
different if, if they have the input,
if they feel like they're part of
1297
01:06:54,683 --> 01:06:57,653
the process, they are going to.
1298
01:06:58,058 --> 01:07:02,228
Want to understand and have the
understanding and fill it out
1299
01:07:03,008 --> 01:07:07,628
more accurately than somebody who
just was told, Hey, we got this.
1300
01:07:07,628 --> 01:07:08,918
We have to fill this out.
1301
01:07:08,918 --> 01:07:10,688
Just checking the box.
1302
01:07:10,688 --> 01:07:11,648
Like you were just Yeah.
1303
01:07:11,678 --> 01:07:12,998
What you were talking about before.
1304
01:07:13,148 --> 01:07:13,568
Exactly.
1305
01:07:13,778 --> 01:07:14,348
Exactly.
1306
01:07:14,498 --> 01:07:16,358
So, all right, well, let's finish up.
1307
01:07:16,358 --> 01:07:21,548
You as, I mentioned in your intro, you
recently started out at the Cambridge
1308
01:07:21,548 --> 01:07:26,498
Center of Evidence-Based Policing,
and you now you're at a consultant
1309
01:07:26,558 --> 01:07:32,623
and you are overseeing projects over
several different police forces.
1310
01:07:32,673 --> 01:07:35,883
Yeah, I think I, I mean, I was, I was
kind of desperate for an opportunity
1311
01:07:35,883 --> 01:07:39,123
like this, to be honest, to, to be
able to kind of expand a bit more.
1312
01:07:39,123 --> 01:07:42,753
I think when you work in one police
force, it can feel a bit restrictive
1313
01:07:42,753 --> 01:07:46,923
when you, if you don't get the buy-in
immediately that you, that you want.
1314
01:07:46,953 --> 01:07:47,913
And that can be really hard.
1315
01:07:47,913 --> 01:07:49,683
Like we've talked about some of
the barriers and the culture.
1316
01:07:49,683 --> 01:07:52,833
So to be able to work for the Cambridge
Center for Evidence-based policing and,
1317
01:07:52,958 --> 01:07:57,873
and work with 43 potentially different
forces as well as central policing bodies,
1318
01:07:57,873 --> 01:08:01,813
like we have the College of Policing
over here and also like the government's
1319
01:08:01,813 --> 01:08:05,593
home office and then also international
forces that we've worked with as well.
1320
01:08:05,873 --> 01:08:09,053
There's so much more opportunity, which
I, I really value whether it's, whether
1321
01:08:09,053 --> 01:08:13,943
it's like training auditing forces on pop
supporting forces to do problem solving.
1322
01:08:13,943 --> 01:08:15,233
So actually getting hands on.
1323
01:08:15,283 --> 01:08:18,403
Recently I've been working through
the home office with, with a force
1324
01:08:18,523 --> 01:08:20,653
creating pop plans and that involved.
1325
01:08:21,413 --> 01:08:24,623
Sitting down with the analyst,
talking them through their comparative
1326
01:08:24,623 --> 01:08:28,463
case analysis, how I would write it
from a problem solving perspective.
1327
01:08:28,843 --> 01:08:33,013
Going out with them and the wider teams,
visiting locations, running workshops
1328
01:08:33,013 --> 01:08:35,863
with them, getting out as much information
about the problems as possible.
1329
01:08:35,863 --> 01:08:39,853
So I think being able to still do the
frontline problem solving work and support
1330
01:08:39,853 --> 01:08:44,323
it whilst also doing the training and the
wider embedding is kind of the dream job
1331
01:08:44,323 --> 01:08:48,143
for me, if you like getting to do all of
those things as well with forces that,
1332
01:08:48,203 --> 01:08:51,873
that really want your support because
they're the forces that are saying we've
1333
01:08:51,873 --> 01:08:53,433
got a little pocket of funding here.
1334
01:08:53,718 --> 01:08:54,648
What help can you give us?
1335
01:08:54,648 --> 01:08:57,318
We are desperate to kind of have
some help, which is, which is really
1336
01:08:57,318 --> 01:09:00,258
rewarding and I think leans back to
that, that analytical point we were
1337
01:09:00,258 --> 01:09:03,048
making around the analyst and the
role and the value of the analyst.
1338
01:09:03,048 --> 01:09:07,038
Them actually being really wanted and just
as you said, bringing them in and saying.
1339
01:09:07,318 --> 01:09:08,548
What's your perspective on this?
1340
01:09:08,548 --> 01:09:13,468
What would you do differently rather than
that tick box where maybe they're just
1341
01:09:13,468 --> 01:09:17,268
asked to, contribute something so that
we can say, oh yes, well we did that.
1342
01:09:17,268 --> 01:09:19,248
So that's the kind of
place I'm in at the moment.
1343
01:09:19,253 --> 01:09:22,038
It, it gives me a lot of variety,
which I, I really enjoy and get to
1344
01:09:22,038 --> 01:09:25,198
work with so many different forces
and different problems as well.
1345
01:09:25,198 --> 01:09:28,258
So one minute you work on knife
crime, another one, antisocial
1346
01:09:28,258 --> 01:09:32,638
behavior and disorder in the nighttime
economy or an organized crime.
1347
01:09:32,638 --> 01:09:35,738
It's it's a really varied role, which
which I really value at the moment.
1348
01:09:36,008 --> 01:09:43,028
So let's have a, let's do a what
if scenario and what if you , got
1349
01:09:43,028 --> 01:09:45,278
a position or going next level now.
1350
01:09:45,683 --> 01:09:51,653
And you were put in charge and
of implementing problem oriented
1351
01:09:51,653 --> 01:09:57,053
policing to the 43 jurisdictions
that you described earlier.
1352
01:09:57,113 --> 01:09:57,203
Mm-hmm.
1353
01:09:57,593 --> 01:10:02,943
Have you thought about what are some
things you would implement in that role?
1354
01:10:03,423 --> 01:10:08,733
I think standardizing some of the
basic things across 43 forces would
1355
01:10:08,733 --> 01:10:11,373
make a huge difference whereby.
1356
01:10:12,008 --> 01:10:15,158
You go into each of the forces and
everyone does it a little bit different.
1357
01:10:15,158 --> 01:10:19,478
And some of them, you talk to some of 'em
and say, oh, we got this from this force.
1358
01:10:19,688 --> 01:10:24,428
Whether it's a training package or
a template, the recording system, a
1359
01:10:24,428 --> 01:10:28,658
way of evaluating the plans, whatever
it was, they're always borrowing it
1360
01:10:28,658 --> 01:10:31,088
from someone else, but they don't
know whether the thing they're
1361
01:10:31,088 --> 01:10:32,858
borrowing is actually any good or not.
1362
01:10:33,158 --> 01:10:36,578
They are, they, it just, it
looked good and they didn't have
1363
01:10:36,578 --> 01:10:40,178
many other options because they
didn't know who else to approach.
1364
01:10:40,428 --> 01:10:45,018
You've got some forces that are doing
excellent work and I think too often
1365
01:10:45,078 --> 01:10:48,888
we see across, and this is again
coming back to that same point around
1366
01:10:48,888 --> 01:10:51,858
the number of forces, obviously
the comparison, but we see so many
1367
01:10:51,858 --> 01:10:53,598
different ways of doing the same thing.
1368
01:10:54,028 --> 01:10:58,318
I think creating some, . PR codes
of practice that, and practical
1369
01:10:58,318 --> 01:11:03,128
things that people could do, not just
guidelines around what good looks like
1370
01:11:03,158 --> 01:11:07,148
you should have these sorts of roles
or it would be good to have a training
1371
01:11:07,148 --> 01:11:08,438
package and these sorts of things.
1372
01:11:08,468 --> 01:11:13,388
I want tactical, tangible things across
the 43 forces that we can evidence a
1373
01:11:13,388 --> 01:11:16,928
good and we can then go into each of
the forces and test them to see whether
1374
01:11:16,928 --> 01:11:21,938
they're working or not, and then change
them and learn together across 43 forces.
1375
01:11:21,938 --> 01:11:25,138
So I'm talking as I said, the
template and the recording structure.
1376
01:11:25,288 --> 01:11:26,878
Which roles are more valuable?
1377
01:11:27,268 --> 01:11:30,098
The meeting in terms of to have, if
you're gonna have a limited number
1378
01:11:30,098 --> 01:11:34,058
of supporting roles, whether that's
analyst advisors, so on and so forth.
1379
01:11:34,558 --> 01:11:38,578
The leadership level where it ought
to sit at again, you'll get sometimes
1380
01:11:38,638 --> 01:11:40,768
an inspector will own problem solving.
1381
01:11:40,768 --> 01:11:42,928
You'll get another times
when it's the, the a ccc.
1382
01:11:42,928 --> 01:11:43,678
So it's sort of like.
1383
01:11:43,858 --> 01:11:46,288
Second, third in command,
maybe of the force.
1384
01:11:46,288 --> 01:11:47,368
It really varies.
1385
01:11:47,838 --> 01:11:50,808
There's so much there across
training that varies as well.
1386
01:11:50,808 --> 01:11:53,808
And, and the College of Policing is
doing in, in the UK is doing some work
1387
01:11:53,808 --> 01:11:56,928
to try and to try and standardize that,
at least for neighborhood policing.
1388
01:11:56,928 --> 01:11:58,728
But, but there's a
broader, work to be done.
1389
01:11:58,728 --> 01:12:02,683
So I think the first thing I would
do is try to standardize some of the,
1390
01:12:02,808 --> 01:12:06,528
the basic things and get the basics
right because rather than trying
1391
01:12:06,528 --> 01:12:10,028
to run before you can walk, I think
there are a lot of the basics that
1392
01:12:10,028 --> 01:12:11,528
would elevate everyone up a bit.
1393
01:12:11,528 --> 01:12:17,198
And I think that's that beautiful sweet
spot that forces need to not aim for, but.
1394
01:12:17,598 --> 01:12:21,588
Start to progress towards, whereby
sometimes we come in and say,
1395
01:12:21,588 --> 01:12:23,088
everything's gotta be perfect.
1396
01:12:23,298 --> 01:12:24,798
These, this is a great example.
1397
01:12:24,798 --> 01:12:28,608
One, you're doing more of these ones,
rather than trying to say, well look,
1398
01:12:28,608 --> 01:12:30,468
can we start doing the basics right?
1399
01:12:30,598 --> 01:12:34,108
Consistently, can every problem
have at least one baseline measure?
1400
01:12:34,108 --> 01:12:34,558
Please?
1401
01:12:34,798 --> 01:12:36,808
Can it be routinely monitored?
1402
01:12:37,138 --> 01:12:40,213
Is there some evidence of
analytical work taking place?
1403
01:12:40,513 --> 01:12:42,778
Are the responses actually evidence-based?
1404
01:12:43,138 --> 01:12:46,228
All of these things that aren't
necessarily going to the nth
1405
01:12:46,228 --> 01:12:49,978
degree, like where you described
around it feeling too academic.
1406
01:12:50,188 --> 01:12:53,758
But if you do some of the basics
right, if we can start to then
1407
01:12:53,758 --> 01:12:55,108
reach those points afterwards.
1408
01:12:55,108 --> 01:12:59,098
So I think standardizing some kind
of expectations around, around what
1409
01:12:59,098 --> 01:13:00,868
force, what looks good, really.
1410
01:13:01,048 --> 01:13:01,348
Yeah.
1411
01:13:01,828 --> 01:13:04,068
Well . You're still
young, yet you have time.
1412
01:13:04,068 --> 01:13:04,728
And someone would
1413
01:13:04,803 --> 01:13:06,043
have to create the role first.
1414
01:13:06,483 --> 01:13:06,723
Yeah.
1415
01:13:07,008 --> 01:13:10,678
And well, and then hey, you'll do
so many great things that they'll
1416
01:13:10,678 --> 01:13:13,168
create, an award, the sessions award.
1417
01:13:13,198 --> 01:13:13,498
Right.
1418
01:13:13,798 --> 01:13:15,648
And just like we were
talking a little bit Yeah.
1419
01:13:15,648 --> 01:13:19,128
About yesterday is the,
the, the department that.
1420
01:13:19,848 --> 01:13:25,248
Has most integrated problem
oriented policing in the department.
1421
01:13:25,518 --> 01:13:25,698
Right?
1422
01:13:25,698 --> 01:13:25,758
Yeah.
1423
01:13:25,758 --> 01:13:25,818
I
1424
01:13:25,818 --> 01:13:27,438
think that that would be huge.
1425
01:13:27,468 --> 01:13:29,148
I think we look at single plans.
1426
01:13:29,178 --> 01:13:30,588
That's how we measure success.
1427
01:13:30,588 --> 01:13:32,028
We the convert example.
1428
01:13:32,028 --> 01:13:34,793
Now I can't, I can't for a
second stand here and say.
1429
01:13:35,668 --> 01:13:37,198
Oh, well, we shouldn't do that.
1430
01:13:37,198 --> 01:13:39,568
And I would just obliterate my
career that I wouldn't be able
1431
01:13:39,568 --> 01:13:40,858
to springboard off of that.
1432
01:13:41,128 --> 01:13:43,138
I'm not, I'm not interested in
self-sabotage that much, but
1433
01:13:43,408 --> 01:13:44,848
obviously it's incredibly important.
1434
01:13:44,848 --> 01:13:47,548
We keep that towards the
Tilly Awards, the gold season.
1435
01:13:47,548 --> 01:13:50,368
We keep championing those individual
successes a hundred percent.
1436
01:13:50,908 --> 01:13:55,348
But that extra bit, it's potentially
looking beyond the single individual
1437
01:13:55,468 --> 01:13:59,668
sparks of brilliance and in innovation
that we see across time and time
1438
01:13:59,668 --> 01:14:03,298
again each year with people putting
forward their projects, but instead.
1439
01:14:03,598 --> 01:14:05,608
As you say, who is embedding it?
1440
01:14:05,638 --> 01:14:09,688
Who's gone from being the bottom of
the list, if you like, in terms of
1441
01:14:09,688 --> 01:14:11,398
forces and really struggling with this.
1442
01:14:11,398 --> 01:14:15,118
And they don't have any recording
process and no one's doing it to, they
1443
01:14:15,118 --> 01:14:18,148
might not be the best and they might
not have the overall single plan, but
1444
01:14:18,208 --> 01:14:23,128
by God they've got 30 plans in their
force and they're all at least average.
1445
01:14:23,158 --> 01:14:24,748
I know that sounds really depressing.
1446
01:14:24,838 --> 01:14:25,888
They're all least average.
1447
01:14:26,548 --> 01:14:27,718
So there's a minimum standard.
1448
01:14:27,768 --> 01:14:30,738
We've got a load that are good and
the ones that are average, guess what?
1449
01:14:30,768 --> 01:14:32,238
They're all taking learning.
1450
01:14:32,418 --> 01:14:34,728
They, they, they've realized where
they went wrong and how they're
1451
01:14:34,728 --> 01:14:35,748
gonna improve it next time.
1452
01:14:35,748 --> 01:14:37,668
And we start to see that improvement.
1453
01:14:37,668 --> 01:14:41,538
The officer that owned this one did an
average one to start off with, but now
1454
01:14:41,538 --> 01:14:44,178
you can look at the next one they've
done and look, it's getting better.
1455
01:14:44,388 --> 01:14:46,098
That kind of evidence.
1456
01:14:46,723 --> 01:14:50,473
To embedding it, to changing the
culture, to changing the infrastructure
1457
01:14:50,473 --> 01:14:54,133
that that enables this to happen
is worth its weight in gold.
1458
01:14:54,133 --> 01:14:57,763
And it's worth so much more than
one single plan, which, as, as
1459
01:14:57,763 --> 01:14:59,443
I say, should still be rewarded.
1460
01:14:59,443 --> 01:15:01,333
But I think that's, that's the goal.
1461
01:15:01,363 --> 01:15:03,163
That's what every force
should be looking for.
1462
01:15:03,163 --> 01:15:07,003
Not just those one-off plans, but
but systematically embedding it.
1463
01:15:07,153 --> 01:15:07,303
Yeah,.
1464
01:15:07,353 --> 01:15:08,253
It's a good pitch.
1465
01:15:08,253 --> 01:15:10,853
We gotta, cut out that part about average.
1466
01:15:10,853 --> 01:15:12,413
It can't be the mid award.
1467
01:15:13,553 --> 01:15:13,913
I don't wanna
1468
01:15:13,913 --> 01:15:17,663
say we're not aiming for that, but
I can tell you if everyone was like,
1469
01:15:17,723 --> 01:15:22,043
all of our plans are at least 50
quality 50% and above, they'd, everyone
1470
01:15:22,043 --> 01:15:23,333
would bite your hand off for that.
1471
01:15:24,443 --> 01:15:25,883
As long as there's a
few good ones in there.
1472
01:15:25,883 --> 01:15:28,673
As long as we don't just accept
that everyone can be 50%.
1473
01:15:29,723 --> 01:15:29,993
So
1474
01:15:30,593 --> 01:15:36,443
here's a more philosophical question
for you, and it's probably a very meaty
1475
01:15:36,443 --> 01:15:44,033
question, but problem solving, should
it be a police department endeavor or
1476
01:15:44,033 --> 01:15:47,363
should it be more of a citywide endeavor?
1477
01:15:47,738 --> 01:15:52,088
So it's not necessarily just
the police department taking
1478
01:15:52,088 --> 01:15:54,798
on this problem solving role.
1479
01:15:54,918 --> 01:16:00,048
It is the entire city, the entire
community taking on this role.
1480
01:16:00,168 --> 01:16:02,773
I mean, it's certainly the vision
of even when it was proposed,
1481
01:16:03,163 --> 01:16:04,548
that was kind of the vision.
1482
01:16:04,548 --> 01:16:08,173
But I think that the turnoff that you're
kind of alluding to is the fact that it's
1483
01:16:08,178 --> 01:16:10,038
problem oriented policing, but mm-hmm.
1484
01:16:10,278 --> 01:16:14,808
You see many people historically refer
to it as problem oriented partnerships,
1485
01:16:14,808 --> 01:16:18,228
and that was one, one person that
as an ex colleague, I think six
1486
01:16:18,228 --> 01:16:21,378
months ago, said, why don't we call
it problem oriented partnerships?
1487
01:16:21,378 --> 01:16:25,398
I can't get buy-in from the partners
because we keep calling this police thing.
1488
01:16:25,398 --> 01:16:28,398
I think there's nothing to stop
us completely changing it and say.
1489
01:16:28,628 --> 01:16:33,148
It's problem oriented partnerships because
that's partnerships are ingrained in it.
1490
01:16:33,428 --> 01:16:34,898
And they don't work very well.
1491
01:16:35,048 --> 01:16:39,948
The plans often without it even for my
LY one, obviously we were heavily police
1492
01:16:39,948 --> 01:16:42,108
led because of the nature of the crime.
1493
01:16:42,438 --> 01:16:43,443
It was very crimey.
1494
01:16:43,548 --> 01:16:46,918
It wasn't a problem that was sort
of you, you know what I mean?
1495
01:16:46,918 --> 01:16:50,818
It wasn't sort of blurring the
lines between all our organizations.
1496
01:16:50,818 --> 01:16:52,618
We were clearly going to be the lead.
1497
01:16:52,888 --> 01:16:58,558
But even in, in that, we still acquired
data and got buy-in and they helped with
1498
01:16:58,558 --> 01:17:02,998
the interventions, various partners,
even though it was very crime focused.
1499
01:17:03,368 --> 01:17:07,568
Other, other work, some work I've done
recently with the force around robberies.
1500
01:17:07,823 --> 01:17:11,723
Basically every intervention we
proposed was not owned by the police.
1501
01:17:11,723 --> 01:17:13,193
That wasn't on purpose.
1502
01:17:13,283 --> 01:17:18,273
I wasn't trying to to move responsibility
away from police, but it was just
1503
01:17:18,273 --> 01:17:21,693
inevitable that when you open your
mind up to the opportunities of,
1504
01:17:21,723 --> 01:17:26,773
of preventing crime, there's any
one of countless opportunities.
1505
01:17:26,778 --> 01:17:29,863
And, and often very , few of
them feel police and, and that
1506
01:17:29,863 --> 01:17:31,243
really is how it should be.
1507
01:17:31,243 --> 01:17:33,733
And I think maybe as you
kind of alluded to, I think.
1508
01:17:34,013 --> 01:17:37,163
, We involve partnerships to
different degrees, at least
1509
01:17:37,163 --> 01:17:39,833
in, in the UK fairly well.
1510
01:17:39,833 --> 01:17:43,433
Whether or not there is ingrained
within individual plans as as much as we
1511
01:17:43,433 --> 01:17:45,353
would like is another question I'd say.
1512
01:17:45,353 --> 01:17:47,783
But we definitely involve
partners fairly well.
1513
01:17:47,783 --> 01:17:49,643
I would say across the board.
1514
01:17:49,793 --> 01:17:53,273
What we probably do less well
is involve the community.
1515
01:17:53,633 --> 01:17:57,653
I think we do problem solving
to the community more often.
1516
01:17:58,193 --> 01:18:04,073
Again separate case studies can, will,
will deviate from that of course.
1517
01:18:04,163 --> 01:18:10,993
But I think by and large we see us as
the, we are the doers and the community.
1518
01:18:10,993 --> 01:18:14,233
We know what's best interest of the
community and in actual fact, sometimes we
1519
01:18:14,233 --> 01:18:18,973
miss some key bits of information and we
miss some opportunities and we sometimes
1520
01:18:18,973 --> 01:18:21,373
make things worse occasionally as well.
1521
01:18:21,373 --> 01:18:24,943
So I think involving the community
a bit more, and I think I, I
1522
01:18:24,943 --> 01:18:26,053
think the question would be.
1523
01:18:26,678 --> 01:18:30,368
To put back to you, I guess, where would
it then sit strategically in terms of
1524
01:18:30,368 --> 01:18:34,268
ownership and I guess that would come
down to every jurisdiction that is
1525
01:18:34,268 --> 01:18:38,348
probably set up in a slightly different
way, but maybe starting to take some
1526
01:18:38,348 --> 01:18:42,788
of the ownership away from policing
and seeing policing as a role within
1527
01:18:42,788 --> 01:18:44,818
that would, would be the first step.
1528
01:18:44,818 --> 01:18:48,418
And I often say to partners who come on
training alongside their police colleagues
1529
01:18:48,418 --> 01:18:51,178
that I run, I say, you guys are armed.
1530
01:18:51,228 --> 01:18:52,608
They say, how, how can we do this?
1531
01:18:52,608 --> 01:18:55,828
This is a even though you've explained
to us, it still feels heavily police
1532
01:18:55,828 --> 01:18:57,358
and we're relying on the police here.
1533
01:18:57,628 --> 01:18:57,718
Mm-hmm.
1534
01:18:57,958 --> 01:19:00,138
Said the language now Sarah pop.
1535
01:19:00,508 --> 01:19:03,988
Underlying causes baseline
measures evaluations and control
1536
01:19:03,988 --> 01:19:06,208
groups and all of these things
that we're talking about, right?
1537
01:19:06,478 --> 01:19:08,248
You can use that to your advantage.
1538
01:19:08,428 --> 01:19:13,168
So when you go back to your partnership
meetings, which happen mostly monthly in
1539
01:19:13,168 --> 01:19:17,188
the uk, you can start using that language
now, people that haven't been on this
1540
01:19:17,188 --> 01:19:20,428
course, inspectors on that will start
looking around going, hang on a minute.
1541
01:19:20,758 --> 01:19:23,938
I'm getting internal people saying,
where are your problem solving plans?
1542
01:19:23,998 --> 01:19:25,168
Your scanning's not good enough.
1543
01:19:25,168 --> 01:19:26,818
You need to be doing more
of this, and more of that.
1544
01:19:26,818 --> 01:19:30,148
But now the partners are talking
about it, they understand this, they
1545
01:19:30,148 --> 01:19:31,378
understand this better than I do.
1546
01:19:31,378 --> 01:19:34,738
God, I better make sure that we're
in tip top condition, because I
1547
01:19:34,738 --> 01:19:37,618
can't have everyone from all sides
seemingly knowing about this.
1548
01:19:37,798 --> 01:19:40,138
So maybe that's not the ideal
way that we'd like people to come
1549
01:19:40,138 --> 01:19:42,238
along in terms of, like I'm saying
with the carrot and the stick.
1550
01:19:42,238 --> 01:19:45,338
But you've gotta take every opportunity,
and I think it's definitely an
1551
01:19:45,338 --> 01:19:46,688
opportunity around partnerships.
1552
01:19:46,838 --> 01:19:47,138
All right.
1553
01:19:47,378 --> 01:19:48,308
Very good.
1554
01:19:48,368 --> 01:19:50,378
Let's move on to our advice section.
1555
01:19:50,378 --> 01:19:54,448
So analysts hearing this
what advice do you have?
1556
01:19:54,738 --> 01:19:55,278
For them.
1557
01:19:55,618 --> 01:19:59,018
I think the main thing is to
be inquisitive is to not take
1558
01:19:59,018 --> 01:20:00,908
anything as, as gospel truth.
1559
01:20:01,298 --> 01:20:05,168
Data quality as you've alluded
to and, and, and making sure
1560
01:20:05,558 --> 01:20:07,298
it's, it's viable to use.
1561
01:20:07,303 --> 01:20:09,568
It's, it's notoriously tricky in policing.
1562
01:20:09,618 --> 01:20:10,728
I think the main thing.
1563
01:20:11,058 --> 01:20:12,918
Is to go beyond descriptives.
1564
01:20:13,078 --> 01:20:15,808
It's the critical thinking element
that makes problem analysis.
1565
01:20:15,808 --> 01:20:16,318
What it is.
1566
01:20:16,318 --> 01:20:19,858
It's, it's going beyond just saying,
okay, they would like some information
1567
01:20:19,858 --> 01:20:21,598
around victims offenders locations.
1568
01:20:21,598 --> 01:20:25,598
So on, here are all the percentages
this is the ethnicity of suspects,
1569
01:20:25,628 --> 01:20:26,858
the percentage of them that were this.
1570
01:20:27,053 --> 01:20:27,143
Mm-hmm.
1571
01:20:28,238 --> 01:20:31,853
The, the temporal analysis, this is
when that happened, but actually putting
1572
01:20:31,853 --> 01:20:36,573
these things together to kind of make
sense of it is, what this is all about.
1573
01:20:36,763 --> 01:20:40,603
I, I did, and again, another example
recently whereby a victim had gone
1574
01:20:40,603 --> 01:20:44,383
into a shop asking to borrow a phone
because they had just been a victim
1575
01:20:44,383 --> 01:20:47,413
of crime and their phone had been
stolen and the shop refused them.
1576
01:20:48,253 --> 01:20:50,443
They said, no, not interested
in getting involved.
1577
01:20:50,833 --> 01:20:55,243
That one off incident doesn't
necessarily mean much on its own, but
1578
01:20:55,243 --> 01:20:57,733
to me, that jumped out as being okay.
1579
01:20:57,733 --> 01:21:01,873
That tells me that maybe people, maybe
people in this area, businesses are
1580
01:21:01,873 --> 01:21:03,583
not being those capable guardians.
1581
01:21:03,583 --> 01:21:05,413
They're not necessarily helping people.
1582
01:21:05,413 --> 01:21:08,263
If they're not gonna help victims, then
they're most certainly not going to be
1583
01:21:08,473 --> 01:21:11,923
doing anything at the time of an offense
to be able to prevent this from happening
1584
01:21:11,923 --> 01:21:14,413
and become those active capable guardians.
1585
01:21:14,893 --> 01:21:17,113
So I would then be
inquisitive as an analyst.
1586
01:21:17,113 --> 01:21:21,163
I would ask the questions to say, what
else would I need to see in the data?
1587
01:21:21,698 --> 01:21:25,198
To be able to sort of fulfill that
hypothesis that I think there's
1588
01:21:25,198 --> 01:21:26,488
a lack of capable guardianship.
1589
01:21:26,488 --> 01:21:29,818
So you can start to kind of brainstorm,
for lack of a better phrase, different
1590
01:21:29,818 --> 01:21:32,578
ways of of, of, of testing that.
1591
01:21:32,578 --> 01:21:36,238
So whether for us that was things
like how many of the crimes
1592
01:21:36,238 --> 01:21:37,618
have witness statements on them.
1593
01:21:37,978 --> 01:21:41,068
If I could work that out as a
percentage, that alone isn't going to
1594
01:21:41,068 --> 01:21:42,628
tell me about capable guardianship.
1595
01:21:42,628 --> 01:21:46,708
But it contributes to my understanding
because I would be expecting if there
1596
01:21:46,708 --> 01:21:49,888
were no capable guardians and people
weren't supportive of prosecutions
1597
01:21:49,918 --> 01:21:53,488
and supporting victims, that I would
see a lack of witness statements.
1598
01:21:53,818 --> 01:21:57,808
What are there examples and case studies
and members of the public intervening or
1599
01:21:57,808 --> 01:22:04,998
supporting victims when incidents happen,
what's the time between offense time and
1600
01:22:04,998 --> 01:22:07,968
reported time for when phones are stolen?
1601
01:22:08,208 --> 01:22:09,288
If the time is.
1602
01:22:09,598 --> 01:22:13,648
Massive, the gap that tells me
no one is providing their phone.
1603
01:22:13,648 --> 01:22:16,678
No one's seeing this happening and
going, oh, you've had your phone stolen.
1604
01:22:16,708 --> 01:22:18,478
Do you wanna borrow my
phone and call the police?
1605
01:22:18,868 --> 01:22:19,948
That's never happening.
1606
01:22:19,948 --> 01:22:24,028
So all of those things on their own
wouldn't tell me much about the problem,
1607
01:22:24,208 --> 01:22:27,988
but combined, they would create this
picture, this understanding of that
1608
01:22:27,988 --> 01:22:32,008
critical thinking of how does this data
all come together and tell me something
1609
01:22:32,008 --> 01:22:35,578
about the story and tell me why this
crime is, is being allowed to occur.
1610
01:22:35,578 --> 01:22:40,198
And, and if it does, then you can start
coming up with your interventions and
1611
01:22:40,198 --> 01:22:43,318
you can recommend those interventions
based on saying, well, okay, what things
1612
01:22:43,318 --> 01:22:47,518
would we be doing differently to enable
those people in that location when those
1613
01:22:47,518 --> 01:22:51,118
thefts and robberies are happening to
become active capable guardians, whether
1614
01:22:51,118 --> 01:22:54,748
they're members of the public or they're
people working in the businesses.
1615
01:22:54,748 --> 01:22:58,498
So to move beyond those
descriptive or those one-liners,
1616
01:22:58,498 --> 01:23:01,468
for example, saying there was
one incident where this happened.
1617
01:23:01,768 --> 01:23:03,778
I don't care too much about one incident.
1618
01:23:03,838 --> 01:23:06,358
That's not the the pattern
that I'm looking for.
1619
01:23:06,358 --> 01:23:07,528
I'm looking about how.
1620
01:23:07,593 --> 01:23:10,083
The story comes together
across all these incidents.
1621
01:23:10,083 --> 01:23:13,003
Where are the patterns
between them for opportunity?
1622
01:23:13,293 --> 01:23:14,733
And probably the last thing I'd say is.
1623
01:23:15,028 --> 01:23:16,228
Hypothesis testing.
1624
01:23:16,228 --> 01:23:19,708
So turning assumptions
into testable hypotheses.
1625
01:23:19,708 --> 01:23:22,738
And by that, it doesn't need to be sort
of, as we said earlier, statistical
1626
01:23:22,738 --> 01:23:26,338
analysis, but like I said earlier
with the, the example around someone
1627
01:23:26,338 --> 01:23:29,908
refusing their phone, that gives me
an idea about what I think's going on.
1628
01:23:29,908 --> 01:23:33,238
And I say, what else do I
need to see in the data?
1629
01:23:33,268 --> 01:23:38,128
Or by visiting a location, engaging with
partners to make me feel more confident
1630
01:23:38,158 --> 01:23:40,328
about this particular hypothesis.
1631
01:23:40,328 --> 01:23:43,358
And the best way of doing that is
collaborating with the officers.
1632
01:23:43,378 --> 01:23:47,188
Because officers involved in these
problems who are walking these areas
1633
01:23:47,188 --> 01:23:51,118
day in day out, experiencing these
problems will have loads of knowledge
1634
01:23:51,118 --> 01:23:52,558
and understanding about those problems.
1635
01:23:52,858 --> 01:23:56,368
But inevitably some of those things
might be assumptions because we
1636
01:23:56,368 --> 01:23:58,078
haven't got an evidence basis for them.
1637
01:23:58,078 --> 01:24:02,158
So I find that's a really great
way to merge officers and analysts
1638
01:24:02,158 --> 01:24:05,398
together as part of that team to
take the local understanding and
1639
01:24:05,398 --> 01:24:10,528
perspective of the officers and turn
those things into hypothesis to say,
1640
01:24:10,558 --> 01:24:14,548
okay, we think that, and what do I as
an analyst need to see in the data?
1641
01:24:14,548 --> 01:24:17,278
How can I help for us
to be confident of that?
1642
01:24:17,278 --> 01:24:19,143
So I think that's the best way
of kind of merging it together.
1643
01:24:19,798 --> 01:24:24,938
And for the listeners, we will put links
to additional information on all the
1644
01:24:24,938 --> 01:24:26,648
topics that we talked about here today.
1645
01:24:26,648 --> 01:24:32,468
And if you have questions for Matt, we
will leave a way to contact Matt as well.
1646
01:24:32,618 --> 01:24:38,258
Alright, Matt, let's finish up with
personal interests and you enjoy cricket.
1647
01:24:38,473 --> 01:24:39,103
Yes.
1648
01:24:39,163 --> 01:24:42,643
And I know that might mean
nothing to American listeners.
1649
01:24:43,753 --> 01:24:45,313
It's one of the biggest
sports in the world.
1650
01:24:45,313 --> 01:24:45,943
I have, you know?
1651
01:24:46,453 --> 01:24:47,233
Yeah, yeah.
1652
01:24:47,233 --> 01:24:51,043
Well, I mean, so is football AKA soccer?
1653
01:24:51,673 --> 01:24:55,023
But Americans don't seem to be
impressed by that much either,
1654
01:24:55,023 --> 01:24:56,043
although it's getting better.
1655
01:24:56,463 --> 01:24:57,363
No, but I, no.
1656
01:24:57,363 --> 01:25:01,643
Do you know what USA actually had
a, a team at the last, the 2020,
1657
01:25:01,853 --> 01:25:03,773
which is a format of cricket.
1658
01:25:03,773 --> 01:25:05,633
So there are different,
different types of waves.
1659
01:25:05,633 --> 01:25:06,413
We play cricket.
1660
01:25:06,803 --> 01:25:10,673
They had a, they had a team at the, the
last World Cup of that, and I believe
1661
01:25:10,673 --> 01:25:14,903
they beat Pakistan, which was a, I think
I, I might be corrected now by someone.
1662
01:25:14,903 --> 01:25:16,253
I feel like they beat someone big.
1663
01:25:16,713 --> 01:25:17,823
And it was a bit of a coup.
1664
01:25:17,823 --> 01:25:21,063
So there's definitely something
to latch onto maybe for, for
1665
01:25:21,063 --> 01:25:21,998
American listeners there.
1666
01:25:22,653 --> 01:25:23,073
Yeah.
1667
01:25:23,133 --> 01:25:23,463
Yeah.
1668
01:25:23,613 --> 01:25:27,933
I, I have talked to several
people that, I say several.
1669
01:25:27,933 --> 01:25:29,433
That's not a, that's not accurate.
1670
01:25:29,433 --> 01:25:33,373
I've talked to a couple people
that have, that have played it
1671
01:25:33,373 --> 01:25:37,153
and explained it to me, and they
said , you just have to watch it.
1672
01:25:37,153 --> 01:25:37,513
Yeah.
1673
01:25:37,513 --> 01:25:41,083
I have to someone's gotta coach
you through exactly what happens
1674
01:25:41,083 --> 01:25:46,293
when, and then you, get a way better
understanding of, the process.
1675
01:25:46,623 --> 01:25:50,403
But I think it's the moment then that they
tell you the, one of the best formats of
1676
01:25:50,403 --> 01:25:55,383
the game is five days solid of playing
that everyone normally just switches up.
1677
01:25:56,438 --> 01:25:57,723
But that is the best bit.
1678
01:25:57,723 --> 01:25:58,593
It is the ebb and flow.
1679
01:25:58,593 --> 01:25:59,703
It's like watching chess.
1680
01:25:59,703 --> 01:26:03,338
It's like the strategic
maneuvers of, of five days.
1681
01:26:03,338 --> 01:26:05,868
One that you think one team's on
top and then, and then, and then
1682
01:26:05,868 --> 01:26:07,008
three days later they're not.
1683
01:26:08,538 --> 01:26:08,878
Yeah, yeah.
1684
01:26:09,228 --> 01:26:09,888
Oh, man.
1685
01:26:09,888 --> 01:26:10,338
Yeah.
1686
01:26:10,338 --> 01:26:11,778
It goes on for days.
1687
01:26:13,978 --> 01:26:16,098
. And then who's, who's your football team?
1688
01:26:16,778 --> 01:26:18,848
Westham United, so East London.
1689
01:26:18,848 --> 01:26:22,338
My family's from originally from,
from the east end of London.
1690
01:26:22,648 --> 01:26:25,078
So we are, they're kind of
having a terrible time of it
1691
01:26:25,078 --> 01:26:27,388
now, so I'm not really, I'm not
really wanting to talk about it.
1692
01:26:27,388 --> 01:26:28,768
We're not, we're not doing so well.
1693
01:26:29,028 --> 01:26:33,078
But we actually, a couple of years ago
won the first trophy ever of my lifetime.
1694
01:26:33,128 --> 01:26:36,198
So at least we've got something to
something to write at home about.
1695
01:26:36,198 --> 01:26:38,998
But to, to be honest, when we were
talking yesterday about our interest
1696
01:26:38,998 --> 01:26:41,908
and things like that, that we might
discuss, and I was kind of just
1697
01:26:41,908 --> 01:26:44,818
thinking, I was reminiscing of all
of the things that I used to love
1698
01:26:44,818 --> 01:26:46,678
doing before I had a 3-year-old child.
1699
01:26:46,678 --> 01:26:47,038
Really?
1700
01:26:47,038 --> 01:26:47,158
Yeah.
1701
01:26:47,158 --> 01:26:50,198
And, if my son, it becomes
an analyst in 20 years and it
1702
01:26:50,198 --> 01:26:51,898
somehow digs this podcast out.
1703
01:26:52,148 --> 01:26:53,408
I, I still love you.
1704
01:26:53,458 --> 01:26:54,448
And, and definitely.
1705
01:26:54,648 --> 01:26:56,358
I don't regret all of these things.
1706
01:26:56,358 --> 01:26:59,728
Trading them in playing cricket,
going to festivals and gigs.
1707
01:26:59,788 --> 01:27:03,268
My my season ticket watching
Westham playing playing in a band,
1708
01:27:03,268 --> 01:27:06,568
things like that, that all feel
like very distant memories now.
1709
01:27:06,568 --> 01:27:10,198
Now I, now it's ha having,
having a 3-year-old and.
1710
01:27:10,488 --> 01:27:14,058
Just thinking about problem solving
all the time, which, which is which
1711
01:27:14,058 --> 01:27:17,148
drives my life, which I, I definitely
need at least, this is maybe a bit
1712
01:27:17,148 --> 01:27:20,538
of a wake up call have, having to
think about what my interests are is
1713
01:27:20,538 --> 01:27:24,438
a wake up call to definitely create
some more than just indoor cycling.
1714
01:27:24,978 --> 01:27:25,488
Yeah.
1715
01:27:25,608 --> 01:27:26,693
Yeah, definitely.
1716
01:27:27,468 --> 01:27:30,588
All right, Matt, it is been a
pleasure talking with you today.
1717
01:27:30,588 --> 01:27:34,158
Our last segment to the show is Words
to the World, and this is where you
1718
01:27:34,158 --> 01:27:36,408
can promote any idea that you wish.
1719
01:27:36,498 --> 01:27:38,118
What are your words to the world?
1720
01:27:38,358 --> 01:27:41,558
I think it's kind of slightly
cliche, but I think you you asked
1721
01:27:41,558 --> 01:27:42,943
words for words for the world.
1722
01:27:42,943 --> 01:27:44,823
Jason, you're gonna get something cliche.
1723
01:27:45,363 --> 01:27:47,943
I think be curious about everything.
1724
01:27:48,003 --> 01:27:51,528
If you are, whether this is in the
real world, if you like out or the real
1725
01:27:51,528 --> 01:27:56,088
world, the world outside of analysis
or not, be curious about everything.
1726
01:27:56,088 --> 01:27:57,828
Ask why to everything.
1727
01:27:57,828 --> 01:27:58,368
Question.
1728
01:27:58,368 --> 01:27:58,638
It.
1729
01:27:59,058 --> 01:28:01,548
Don't take everything at at face value.
1730
01:28:01,728 --> 01:28:04,878
If something in your spreadsheet
looks wrong or doesn't quite add up,
1731
01:28:04,878 --> 01:28:06,138
don't bury your head in the sand.
1732
01:28:06,138 --> 01:28:07,218
But go and find out.
1733
01:28:07,218 --> 01:28:10,458
It's the only way that you'll find
find the accuracy and find the truth.
1734
01:28:10,458 --> 01:28:12,978
And, and if you wanna go further,
specifically thinking about problem
1735
01:28:12,978 --> 01:28:15,438
or policing, you need analysts.
1736
01:28:15,558 --> 01:28:18,228
You need analysts to
understand problem analysis.
1737
01:28:18,478 --> 01:28:22,228
You need to get 'em to realize the crucial
role that they play because without
1738
01:28:22,228 --> 01:28:23,738
them , we're just playing at this really.
1739
01:28:23,918 --> 01:28:24,638
Very good.
1740
01:28:24,638 --> 01:28:26,918
Well, I leave ever guess with,
you've given me just enough
1741
01:28:26,918 --> 01:28:27,968
to talk bad about you later.
1742
01:28:28,118 --> 01:28:28,868
Thanks very much, Jason.
1743
01:28:29,918 --> 01:28:32,378
But I do appreciate you being on the show.
1744
01:28:32,408 --> 01:28:33,398
Thank you so
1745
01:28:33,398 --> 01:28:33,698
much.
1746
01:28:33,698 --> 01:28:34,298
And you be safe.
1747
01:28:34,418 --> 01:28:34,658
Cheers.
1748
01:28:34,663 --> 01:28:34,813
You too.
1749
01:28:35,140 --> 01:28:35,320
Thank
1750
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,860
you for making it to the end of another
episode of Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
1751
01:28:38,950 --> 01:28:42,370
You can show your support by sharing
this in other episodes found on
1752
01:28:42,370 --> 01:28:46,480
our website@www.leapodcasts.com.
1753
01:28:46,480 --> 01:28:50,200
If you have a topic you would like
us to cover or have a suggestion for
1754
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:54,730
our next guest, please send us an
email at Elliot podcasts@gmail.com.
1755
01:28:54,850 --> 01:28:56,740
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.