The Coffee Lesson That Launched her Fortune 500 Career with Debbie Storey | Rewind | Ep 85

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You're listening to episode 85 of the Lead Into a Podcast.
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Hello and welcome back to another episode of Lead Into It.
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I'm your host, Sarah Greco.
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Here's something I wish more people talked about when it came to careers.
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You don't have to have it all figured out.
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Your career probably won't go exactly to plan.
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You might take a job you never expected to take, end up in a role you didn't think you were ready for, or discover that what you thought you wanted five years ago isn't actually what you want anymore.
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That's one of the reasons I'm bringing this conversation back.
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In this rewind episode, I'm revisiting the conversation I had with Debbie Story, who spent 34 years at AT ⁇ T, starting out as a clerk and eventually becoming an executive vice president.
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Her career is a pretty incredible example of what can happen when you stay curious, build relationships, keep learning, and don't let someone else's definition of success become your own.
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We talked about mindset, boundaries, priorities, mentors, sponsors, networking, getting outside of your comfort zone, and perhaps most importantly, being willing to ask for help.
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There's a story in this episode that I still think about where Debbie talks about a time when she was new to a leadership role, didn't ask for help because she was afraid of looking inexperienced, and ended up learning a pretty painful lesson.
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Sometimes the thing that we think makes us look weak, like asking for help, admitting we don't know, or reaching out to someone more experienced, is actually the thing that helps us grow and become stronger.
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So if you're navigating a career transition, stepping into a new role, trying to build your network, or simply wondering what your next chapter looks like, this conversation is worth another listen.
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Let's rewind.
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Well, thanks, Debbie, for coming on the show.
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I'm really excited to talk with you and learn more about you.
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Thank you, Sarah.
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It's good to be here.
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Good talking with you.
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So I want to start out with where are you right now and what was the path that you took to get there?
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Yes, long path to get here and circuitous.
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And, you know, we talk about a career plan.
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It's it's not the way I would have planned it, you know, 30 some years ago.
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So um, but today I am um retired from ATT.
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So I retired from ATT after 34 years.
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And uh I convinced my husband to retire with me.
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And we moved from Dallas, Texas to St.
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Petersburg, Florida.
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Great choice.
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It is.
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It's a beautiful, beautiful um little paradise here, but don't tell anybody that because you want to keep it a little hidden, Jim.
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But um, but this was I always wanted to retire early from a big corporation, from a big job, because I wanted an act two.
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Because the way I think about it is act one is all around ambition and success and earnings and supporting yourself.
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And um, act two, I think, should be around impact and making a difference and doing the things that are most important.
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And um, and so I uh got very involved here in the city of St.
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Petersburg with the local arts community.
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I'm on a board of an arts district here and um involved with other organizations that support um women who are homeless and in battered women's shelters and so forth.
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So, and I was also getting very involved in um the community and helping, you know, my passion is about helping women give women the courage and confidence to do whatever it is they believe is their version of success.
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So I was doing a lot of that work in the community.
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But I was asked to, I was on the board still of the AT ⁇ T Performing Arts Center in Dallas, Texas.
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And um they asked me to step in as the interim CEO in 2000 or very early 2007, late 2017, I think.
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So um, you know, I first um chuckled at that notion because I live in St.
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Petersburg and the centers in Dallas, but um, they were very persuasive.
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And I ultimate and I do, I have such great passion for the performing arts.
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And um I had been on the board of the performing arts center since 2011.
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So uh, and I had, you know, watched it grow and you know, so I I wanted to help.
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So I said that I would step in as interim CEO for just a couple of months, and that was three years ago.
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So for the last three years, I've been commuting from St.
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Petersburg to Dallas.
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Um, and doing um, I can't even call it a job.
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It's been a role that that fits with what I wanted to do in Act Two because it's been all about purpose and passion and making a real difference for others.
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So um, so it's been a great experience.
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If I still lived in Dallas, I would sign up to do it for the next 10 years.
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But um, but I am at at one point, at some point, I'm gonna retire again from this act two.
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I love that.
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And having an act two is I I like your mission behind your act two and how you want to have a drive and a purpose, and you work towards that and you recognize that there was also an act one, which is really cool.
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That's a great method for a career.
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Well, act one to me, I needed it to be successful so that I could fuel my act two.
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And um, and I was really lucky in act one.
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I loved, I had 34 years with ATT.
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I started as a clerk.
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So I started at the very bottom, an entry-level job, and I retired as an executive vice president, you know, of a Fortune 6 company.
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So I was incredibly fortunate.
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I loved every job.
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I had 19 jobs in 34 years, and I loved probably 18 of them I adored.
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And maybe one was really hard and wasn't my first choice, but um, but I I'm so blessed to have had that career.
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Um, and the first thing I did when I retired from ATT was wrote a book.
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Uh, and and the my purpose in writing the book was that for so many years I led big teams at AT ⁇ T, and so I naturally mentored people.
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And for part of my career at ATT, I was the chief diversity officer and I led our corporate university, and I was responsible for all talent development and succession planning.
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And so I did so much coaching and developing of people during that time.
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And I, and then I um I I did a lot of speaking, so speaking to big groups about courage and confidence and leadership, and um, and so as I was approaching retirement and thinking about it, I had someone say to me at the end, I did a presentation actually at the University of Georgia um to a big group, both administrators and students.
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And at the end of that presentation, someone came up to me and said, I feel like I've just been to church and I and I want the hymn book because I want to keep reading about this.
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You should write this down so people can read about it.
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So I wrote the book, the way I thought about it, is a gift to you know, everybody that I had mentored.
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I just wanted to get those tips and insights on paper and let people learn from my hindsight all the things I did wrong and the things I can now see that I did right.
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And uh what's the name of the book?
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Don't downsize your dreams, leadership inspiration for women.
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And and every man who's read the book, and lots of the, you know, I've had lots of men reach out to me and say, Why did you put that last line in there?
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Because I have to turn it over when it's on my desk.
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But the t it really is uh it was designed to reach a a niche audience, but um, but the book itself is, you know, the the tips and tools are a hundred percent relevant for both men and women.
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Is it still for sale on Amazon?
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It is.
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Okay, I'll put the link in the show notes because I've read it and the stories and the advice and the methodology that you give in the book is so useful.
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It's so tangible, and it's something that like I could see myself referencing years down the road, like every five years, just to be like, okay, this is a reminder, or this is a nice reminder that maybe I should pursue this method or try this tactic.
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So I'll definitely put in the notes to have others read it as well.
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Thank you.
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And I appreciate your feedback.
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I wanted it to be practical and not academic.
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You know, it's easy to talk about the philosophy of success and leadership and confidence, but how do you practically do those things?
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And I I have um huge passion about the stories that I tell that, you know, that bring to life what went right and what went wrong.
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And I actually received the book from you at one of your speaking events because uh you were speaking about um it was EW I it was like women's leadership experience.
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Yes, it was so good.
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And it was funny when you're telling a story, which I'm gonna ask you to tell in a minute, but uh the story that you told, I had heard I was taking notes furiously because I was like, this is so good.
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And then I had a deja vu moment.
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I was like, I've heard this story before.
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And it turns out I had heard you also speak at um our International Women's Day at work too.
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And I was just like, this is such a great reminder.
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Cause at both points, I was going through pretty like just challenging times at work.
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And I was like, oh, this is such a great reminder to listen to this story and to really take it and embrace the tactic.
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So I love for you to go into the story that you told because it's was so valuable for me.
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But I think it goes back to when you were first hired as a clerk at ATT.
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It does.
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And it's it's about, so the way I um I think about my early success at ATT um is about, you know, uh a couple of these quirky things that, you know, that are not traditional um insights into how you succeed in business, but a couple of things I learned just by trial and error that I did write.
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And the first one, so the first key that I always talk about as my key to my early success is that I made great coffee, which is such non-traditional insight and advice.
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But the story is that um, so I was a college graduate.
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I had a degree in uh psychology and criminal justice and had intended to go to law school and changed my mind.
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Had a, you know, when I graduated and did an internship, actually, um, it changed my mind about what I wanted to do and what I wanted my career to be.
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So I didn't, when I gr I graduated from college, I had worked my way up to a vice president in a restaurant corporation.
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All through college, I managed restaurants.
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So I was now managing six restaurants in the city of Atlanta, small chain, but um, and you know, I technically had the the title of vice president.
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But and but I in the restaurant business, you have no life.
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So as much as I adored the restaurant business, because you get immediate feedback and see immediate results, um, I knew I wanted to join corporate America and have a career in the in the corporate world.
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But I didn't know what corporation, I didn't know what industry.
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Um, what I did know is that I didn't want to bluff my way into a management position just because I had a vice president of a restaurant corporation title.
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I really was committed to starting in a business and learning from the ground up.
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But what I needed and what I shopped for was a boss who would give me a chance, who would say to me, Yes, you're coming into an entry-level job, but if you can prove yourself and learn and grow, I will give you the chance to advance and to succeed.
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And I found that boss, Paul Hollinger.
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I found him at a printing company that was owned by that actually was not owned by Bell South at the time, but it was Bell South was its largest customer.
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Um, and the job that Paul Hollinger hired me for was a clerk.
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So I, you know, so I did I knew nothing about the printing industry.
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It was completely male-dominated business.
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I knew that much.
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Um, but I went to work my very first day and so eager and excited to step into my first, you know, role in corporate America.
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And I sat down with Paul Hollinger and I said, okay, you know, with my pen and my paper in hand, you know, what is my job?
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What are my first, you know, tasks that you want me to do?
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And Paul said, you know what, we've never actually had a clerk.
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This is the first time we've been able to hire a clerk, and so we don't really know.
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I don't really know what your job is, but why don't you start by making coffee?
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So I had this, you know, moment of horror where I said to myself, what have I done?
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I didn't drink coffee, I didn't know how to make coffee, I didn't even know the apparatus that was required to make coffee.
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But I was smart enough to hide my dismay in front of Paul.
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And I thought to myself, you know, if this is my job, I'm gonna make the best coffee ever.
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Because if I make the best coffee ever and I nail that one, then I know I'm gonna get a chance to do something else.
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So I went to the a JC Penny store and um and asked a sales clerk, what does it take to make coffee?
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She was nice enough to walk me through everything.
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So I came back to the office, set up this coffee station, and I thought, you know, I'm I'm not gonna come in every day and just make coffee and sit around.
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So I think every day, if I come in and make a cup of coffee, what a great luxury I have, this of this time that I have where I'm not, you know, overly utilized, that I can get to know people and learn a lot about this business.
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So every day I'd come in and make a cup of coffee and I'd deliver it to someone new that I hadn't yet met.
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And, you know, I thought, how can how can people refuse to spend five minutes with you if you bring them a cup of coffee?
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So I'd I'd sit, you know, I'd say, here's your coffee, and I'd say, if you if you've got a minute, I'd just love to get to know you for a minute.
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And I'd I asked every one of them, I sat down and I asked them questions about their career.
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How did you get where you are?
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How did you start?
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What are the keys to your success?
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What do you think you how why do you think you are where you are?
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Who else do you work with in the company to get your job done?
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And probably the most important question I'd ask people is if you were president for the day, what's the one thing you've changed?
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And so imagine what I was learning about, you know, career advancement and development, but I was also learning about the business and about what needed to change.
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And um and so it didn't take long before I was deliver still delivering coffee, I still kept making great coffee, but I was putting the pieces together in my mind that allowed me to make suggestions about improvements.
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So I was, you know, I I would sit down with John one day and I'd say, John, I was meeting with Mark last week, and the two of you each produce a report that has similar data on it.
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What if we combine that report?
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I'll help you.
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I'll I'll help you create a format that both of you can just feed to, you know, your data into, and it's one report, and it saves both of you some time.
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And um and I started making suggestions about taking um making processes more efficient, you know, taking waste out of processes.
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Why do we have this step in the process?
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It seems like a wasted step.
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Let's just go from A to C rather than A, B, C.
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Um, and so I um I was having an impact just because I have a natural curiosity and I was having so many great conversations with people who saw what needed to be improved.
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And so at my six-month review, I sat down with my boss and he said, You have become an invaluable asset to this department and to this company.
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And you did that not because of what I asked you to do, you did it because you went and found the things that needed to be done and you knocked it out of the park.
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You did them in an exceptional way, and you never stopped making the coffee that I asked you to make your first day here.
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And so he promoted me that at my six-month review.
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And six months later, I was promoted again.
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And a year after that, when he was uh selected to take on a new role, he recommended me to replace him.
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So I was promoted to the manager of the customer service department.
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So it's a, you know, the I tell that story and I I tell, you know, I use make great coffee because it's memorable to people, but you know, it's a it's just a clever and memorable way to say one of the keys to success, no matter who you are and what your job title is or what your job is, is whatever you're asked to do, do it better than anybody else, even if it's making great coffee, if it's sweeping the floor, if it's delivering papers, you know, whatever it is, do it better than anyone else.
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Because that's what gets you noticed, it gets you respected, and it's how you earn the right to take on more things.
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Um, it's it's how you become known as the go-to guy that no matter how small or how big the task, you're gonna go figure out how to get it done and do it better than anybody else.
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I love the story.
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Every time I hear it, I feel more and more inspired because I can imagine the feeling that you had when you were first told, like, why don't you make coffee?
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Because you're like, this is what I completely changed my life for was to make coffee.
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But the the mindset that you put behind it transformed how you ended up progressing in your career.
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And I admire that greatly because I think a lot of other people might have just been like, well, I'll just make coffee then.
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That's it.
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That's all I'm here to do.
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Yeah.
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Well, and if, you know, it's also how you develop your brand and be, you know, you become defined by how you approach things like that.
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If I had, you know, had a bad attitude about it and said, well, he's just saying that because I'm a female and you know, he thinks I should be making coffee, I I people would have perceived me differently.
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And it never became an issue to anyone that I was making coffee because I was just doing gracious, I was doing it graciously and having fun.
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And and had I been doing it begrudgingly, that's what people would have remembered.
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Yes, it's so true.
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But the other part, the other thing I want to um uh point out too is the way you talked with everybody too and got to know everybody.
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In my, like in my most recent roles, I did 30, 60, 90 day plans.
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They ask for that at the very beginning.
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It's a great tool as you enter a new job, just kind of saying what you're gonna do for the 30, 60, 90 days.
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In my 30 days, I always say, I'm going to meet for 30 minutes with every single person I will be working with or interacting with in some way, shape, or form.
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Because in one of my roles, my new manager asked me to do that.
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And I had never done that before.
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That completely changed how I was perceived in the organization.
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And I got to meet all these wonderful people and talk with them and build the relationships very early on.
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And it breaks through that like awkwardness.
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Like you had the coffee.
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I had the excuse of my manager telling me to do it.
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And it's just like that random awkwardness where it's like, oh, hey, this is our first meeting, but we actually have to get something done right now.
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Um, and instead of having that moment, you have like, oh, hey, how's your so-and-so?
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:55.599
How's your family?
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.279
Like we talked about this before.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.279
Hey, this is the project you had mentioned.
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.519
It sounds like we're gonna start working on it now.
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:01.920
Yeah.
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.680
So it just breaks through.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:08.720
And I can't tell, like, everyone should do that when you start a new job.
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:13.599
It's just, it should be a requirement because it's so good for building those relationships.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:19.119
And those are relations, when you build those relationships, number one, people see you differently, right?
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.720
Sometimes you come into a job and you have hard things you have to get done.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:31.680
And when people don't know you up close and can't see you up close and personally, it's easy for them to judge you negatively when you're trying to do hard things.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:39.119
But when you've sat down with them and had a conversation and they've gotten to know you personally, it is much harder for them to judge you negatively.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:43.519
It is much easier for them to give you the benefit of the doubt, no matter what you're trying to do.
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:44.079
Right.
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.279
And it's even more relevant when you take over a team.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:52.400
So when you take over a team, when you're leading people, uh it is even more important.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:59.359
I took over at one point in my career, I was lit still living in Atlanta working for Bell South, and I took over a sales team in California.
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.720
I took over the entire state of South California, the sales team.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:10.240
So they were um spread out, 4,000 employees spread out from Northern California all the way to Southern California.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:16.160
And I committed to them that I was gonna meet every one of them in the first 60 days I was on the job.
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:16.880
And I did.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:19.680
I went to every, I did a you know, a road trip.
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:26.960
I mean, I flew to California, but I did a trip from Northern California, from the northernmost call center all the way to the southernmost one.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.599
And I walked through every call center and I shook everybody's hand that was at work that day.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.319
And and it that stuck with people.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:35.839
That made a huge difference.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.240
I had to do hard things with that team, you know.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.920
You run big centers, sometimes you have to do downsizing.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:45.839
And there's not a it it made a difference in how they viewed me.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.160
They viewed me as she does care about people.
00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.119
She cared enough to come spend time with us and get to know us.
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:57.920
I also had, you know, individual meetings, and and it's they are much more accepting when hard decisions have to be made.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:20:59.920
Completely agree.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:05.759
I uh when I took charge of a team, it was about 21 people.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.559
I made sure I was like, I'm gonna meet with everyone individually and we're I'm gonna ask you five questions.
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.839
And I told them what five questions I was gonna ask straight up.
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:20.720
And they were like, after each meeting, almost every one of them said, We have never had this kind of conversation with our leaders before.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:37.200
And I was that just breaks my heart because you learn so much about folks when you have those kinds of conversations and learn about them and their goals, what they want, and see if they align with what you're actually doing, or if not, like taking them in a different direction that helps them along.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:38.079
Exactly.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:43.119
That that is truly one of the traits of a great leader, the willingness to do that.
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:48.640
And, you know, and that you know, that's my passion again is making a difference for people.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:59.759
When you lead that way, you have no idea what a difference you make for every one of those individuals you've given that time to and paid attention to their input and their dreams and their goals.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.519
You've made a difference for them.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:02.000
Right.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:05.440
And it's never you show that it's not about you as a leader, it's about them.
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:07.519
Which is the whole point of leadership.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:08.400
Absolutely.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:09.279
Totally agree.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:17.599
So one of the things that we talked about earlier on was making sure that you bring a solution to your problem.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.519
Would you mind diving into that a little bit more and maybe giving an example too?
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:22.400
Sure.
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:26.880
Um, so you know, as a leader, I put my I mean, now I've been through this.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.880
My the example I'll tell you about is very early in my career that I, again, another sort of success that I stumbled upon.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:44.400
But um, as as someone who led lots of people over lots of years, nothing was more frustrating than the person who constantly brought a problem and dropped it at your feet and walked away.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:52.880
And um, and nothing was more energizing than someone who came and said, here's a problem, but here's a couple of options for solutions.
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.480
And and I'll tell you um where when it made a real difference for me.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.759
And this also is this is a story about work-life balance as well.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:09.920
So um early in my career, I was, you know, had risen beyond the customer service manager, and I was, you know, part of the leadership team in the the company I was working for, still the printing company.
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.319
And um, and I was a single mom.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:16.559
So my son was, you know, three and four, um, five at the time.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:26.319
And the printing company printing business was a 24 by seven job, which today everybody would likely say almost all jobs are 24-7 because we're always connected.
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:26.799
But right.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:33.200
This one actually had people working around the clock on you know, big machines uh printing telephone directories, actually.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:38.720
And um, and so it was a very demanding um job in terms of the hours worked.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.720
And I had people on the second and the third shift working every night.
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:51.839
And um, before we left the office every day at five o'clock, the the leader, the the president of the company, um had a standing meeting.
00:23:51.920 --> 00:24:00.480
We'd all get together in this standing meeting, and the purpose of this meeting was to debrief on what happened during the day and ensure that we were all prepared for what was going to happen overnight.
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:07.599
In case any of us got a call at home at night, you know, we'd know how to provide direction, problem solve those kind of things.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:14.720
And um, my son's daycare closed at 6:30, and it was about 15 to 20 minutes away.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:20.559
So the meeting was always supposed to be an hour, you know, five to six o'clock meeting every day, which always would have been fine for me.
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.279
I could have easily gotten to my son's daycare center.
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:30.720
But every day I was the only one in that room who had any sense of urgency about that meeting ended on ending on time.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.799
Uh again, it was a very male-dominated business, and these were, you know, the 80s.
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:39.440
And so um I was the only female in the room, and of course the only single parent.
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:50.240
Um, so I was the only one that at six o'clock and six oh five and six ten, you know, I started squirming and sweating every day because I had only a couple of options.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:56.480
You know, these were we didn't have um iPhones and um devices, connected devices.
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:01.839
So there was no way that I could text under the table and get somebody to go pick up my son for me.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:14.480
So my choices were leave the room for a few minutes to make a phone call and get someone at the last minute to step in for me and go pick up my son, or sit there and hope, you know, are we five minutes away from ending?
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:16.960
You know, it's gonna end on time and then I can run out.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:26.720
Or the worst option, which is sit there until I have to just run and, you know, leave the room in a flurry of activity and make myself, you know, stand out.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:44.400
Um, so it was at way too many days I made it to the daycare center, and it was a family-run daycare center, relatively small, but way too many days the daycare center leader was sitting on the front steps with my son, who was well aware that he was the last person being picked up that day.
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:50.880
And I I just, you know, one too many times that happened, and I said to myself, I this is not I um sustainable.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.400
I can't keep doing this.
00:25:52.640 --> 00:26:01.039
And so rather than just go to my boss and say, I can't keep doing this, I thought about all of the options that I could present to him.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:06.240
And so I scheduled a meeting with him and I sat down with him and I explained that situation to him.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:15.519
And I said, Um, you know, often at six o'clock, I said, I'd like to ask you to consider a couple of things that would help me greatly be able to manage this.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:27.039
I said, often that meeting um beyond six o'clock, it sort of converts to uh people are just sitting around socializing because they don't really have to go home until dinner's on the table.
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.920
And I'm not being disparaging, that's just the way it was in those days.
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.559
Um so you know, they're kind of killing time with their buddies until it's time to go home.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.839
So the meeting could end at six o'clock.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.640
Um, and so, you know, one option is I'd like to just ask you to think about that.
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:51.680
If the meetings, if the business portion of the meeting's over, let's, you know, can we disband the meeting and and then people who want to leave can, you know, gracefully get up and leave.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:27:05.920
Um, and I said the other thing is any single day that you think that meeting's gonna run long or that you need to meet a work on the second shift or stay late, I am a hundred percent committed to this job, this business, and I will do that.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:07.599
I can manage it without problem.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.440
I just need to know in advance.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:22.559
And so if I could ask you just, you know, if we know there's a lot of activity going on and the meeting might run long, if you could just get let me know a day, you know, more in that morning at sometime during that day, and I can make arrangements for my son.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:34.720
And I said, the final thing, you know, option is um a lot of times we had to be called, you know, we had to do weekend duty because the again, the presses were the work was continuing over the weekends.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:47.119
And I said, um, I will, I would love to trade off and make sure that my my weekends, I didn't have help on the weekends, so um, that that I can dedicate my weekends to my son.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:53.119
And so any day during the week that someone needs to work a second or a short third shift, let me do that.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:58.559
Let me be the guy to take that so that I can have weekends dedicated to my son.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.480
And um, so you know, he completely understood.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:08.559
He um, it wasn't even an uncomfortable or difficult conversation because I wasn't giving him an ultimatum.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:10.559
I wasn't laying a problem at his feet.
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.559
You know, we were talking through solutions.
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:14.720
So he um got it.
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.799
He, you know, took all of the suggestions that I had given him.
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:26.079
And every day that that meeting could end at six, he'd end the meeting and tell people that if they wanted to come to his office and keep chatting, they could.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.200
And it was a very graceful exit, exit for me.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:43.519
Um, but the all the thing that was also a nice outcome of that conversation that I had with my boss is that the my my colleagues, the rest of the men around the table, they weren't blind to what had happened.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:52.319
You know, they were smart enough to sort of understand, you know, over time, you know, Debbie's got a son that she leaves and picks up and has to get to daycare.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.880
And it kind of made them think about what if I have women on my team who are going through the same thing.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:57.599
Right.
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.160
Um, so it changed the mindset.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.279
And and I was, you know, so proud of that.
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:09.599
And I've so the lesson is, you know, as you indicated already, the lesson is present solutions.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:17.440
And it's always, almost always okay for a boss to help you work through solutions rather than solve your problem for you.
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:25.039
Um, but the other lesson that, you know, I always that I think I took away from that is it's okay to set boundaries.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.319
You have to have priorities.
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:37.839
Don't let your priorities get set for you by other people so that every day you go home feeling bad about whether you're giving first priority to the things that are most important to you.
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:39.920
Think about it delivery.
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:40.559
Yes.
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:47.920
And in the military, we actually were taught like present solutions with your problems, because otherwise it's just complaining.
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:49.759
Like that's really what it is.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.559
And the first time I ever did it, I was terrified.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.799
I remember like walking in, I was like, he's not gonna like my solution, no matter what it is.
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:59.920
But he was like, actually, that's not bad, just go for it.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.240
I was like, oh, okay, well, that's great.
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.960
Like now I feel proud of myself for also coming up with a solution.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.599
And the leader was appreciative that he didn't have to think of something.
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:12.240
Exactly.
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:26.480
So it's incredibly I like that you brought up the setting boundaries as well, because that's incredibly important, especially as everyone's toggling between working remote and working from home and working in the office.
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:32.960
There's gonna be a lot of those very difficult conversations probably happening in the next couple months.
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:33.759
Yes.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:39.359
Yeah, it's gonna be a big change for, you know, so I mean, the the world has shifted around us, right?
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:43.200
The whole landscape has shifted and people are gonna have to figure that out as they go forward.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.359
People's priorities has have clearly shifted during this time.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:53.759
Um, you can look at consumer buying patterns and and see how people's priorities have shifted.
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:58.640
And the quality of life, I think people now recognize as being important again.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:08.559
And it to me, it's a gr another great example of, you know, when this world before COVID, this world was so always on that we let that drive us.
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:20.079
You know, I always say don't let activity drive what happens to don't let the daily activity drive your priorities, because at the end of the day, you're not going to get done the things that were most important.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:29.759
And I think as leading up to COVID, we had become so um oversaturated, overconnected that those priorities were driving us.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:31.680
How many times do you get a text from someone?
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:39.359
And even if it's just a friend asking about Saturday night, how many times do you have anxiety and say, I I'm driving, but I have to answer her?
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:39.680
Right.
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:42.000
She's gonna wonder why I haven't answered.
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:55.440
You know, that's that's letting the activity drive us and not really stepping back and thinking about what our priorities are and putting those priorities in order so that we're spending the most time and attention against the things that are most important.
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.079
Mm-hmm.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:01.279
I I've been hearing this a lot recently where it's uh become the thermostat instead of the thermometer.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:08.400
So you're setting the temperature in which you're uh being reactive to versus uh reacting to the temperature.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.839
So those boundaries that you're creating will help become the thermostat versus the thermometer.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.880
I always loved that analogy and metaphor.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.440
So it was one of those that I've kept.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.480
Well, and it's, you know, again, it's just so important.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:28.480
And, you know, the other thing I think people um need to understand is that throughout your life, your priorities are gonna change.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:28.720
Right.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:29.119
Right.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:35.519
That's and and, you know, I so many people now say this, and it's so true, I've said it for a long time.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.400
You can have it all, you just can't have it all at the same time.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:40.160
It's just not humanly possible.
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:46.480
And so you have to decide at certain times in your life what's most important and put those things first.
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:59.759
There's a time when you focus on your career and you're all in on that, and you have to come home and say to your family, this is a decision that we're all making together, but now's the time for me to invest in my career and our future.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.000
And then there's a time that, you know, let me back up for a minute.
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.880
I always say you can do anything as long as it's for a defined period of time.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:19.119
When you're making that decision to overly invest in your career and some of the family time comes second, don't make that be open-ended and indefinite.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:25.440
Say to your family it's for a year or for two years, or we'll re-evaluate in two years and see how this is working.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.480
And then truly sit down and re-evaluate and say, um, is it time to make a shift?
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.519
You know, I've got I've made some advancements in my career.
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:40.480
I don't want to miss any more soccer games, so I'm gonna make a shift that puts those first, you know, for the next couple of years.
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:58.799
So I just I just can't over-emphasize, um, own that and and make it a deliberate process of setting those priorities and making the deliberate trade-offs, not letting them happen to you and waking up one day and say, wow, I've missed a lot that I didn't intend to miss.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:33:59.359
Mm-hmm.
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.359
It's a very good point.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:16.559
And I think if this past year has proved anything to all of us, it is that even when you plan for things or do things like with intention, your whole world can just become like this crazy mess, and you're gonna have to reevaluate too.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:17.840
Absolutely.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:18.400
Yeah.
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:23.679
I mean, and that's you know, one of the keys to success um to me is flexibility.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:29.199
And, you know, it's life is only 10% what happens to you.
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:35.119
It's 90% how you react to it and your attitude about how you react to it.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:45.760
Um, even when things like this pandemic happen, you know, adjusting, focusing on the things that are under your control, not out of your control, and finding a new way to go forward.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:47.360
Definitely, definitely.
00:34:47.599 --> 00:35:02.159
One of the other things I wanted to talk about was when I heard uh you speak both times, those events were incredibly important to me because I heard from high-level leaders and they talked about very grand level stuff too.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:05.840
It was like all around all different types of topics.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.480
And the other part of it was the networking and the amazing people I got to meet.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:21.679
And obviously, like it was three or four years ago that I heard you speak, but it was still relevant enough for me to reach out to you this January and talk to you about like possibly coming on the show.
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:30.880
And so I would love for you to dive into the importance of networking amongst women or just networking in general and building those relationships.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:36.880
So it's one of, to me, it's one of the most important keys to success in business.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:43.440
So um, I can't over-emphasize this enough that you have nobody succeeds alone.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:51.440
I've never I've heard, I've had, I've been blessed to know and to hear so many successful women and men speak over the years.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:56.639
I've never ever heard anybody stand on stage and say, I did it all by myself.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.239
I did not need anybody.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.480
In fact, people were just in my way, right?
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:00.960
Right.
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:10.159
Um, you know, every single one of them would say to you, and you know, over and over again, I it was my it took the help of my network.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:15.599
I got where I am in part because people gave me chances, people opened doors for me, I learned from other people.
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.960
So a network is just so critically important.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:28.320
I remember years ago when I had an executive coach who told me, um, you know, you have a great internal network, but you have zero external network.
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:29.760
You just haven't focused on that.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:38.239
And I thought, well, I work for a big company, AT ⁇ T, and I, you know, I've had so many opportunities in, you know, within the company, I don't know why I need to focus on that.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:48.639
And it wasn't until I started, got close to thinking about um shifting to my act two that I realized when you go to act two, you need an external network.
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.920
Um, and so I could tell you lots of stories about how I um dug in and built that network.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:59.519
But let me tell you a quick story about how I got one of my jobs, and I think this illustrates the importance of a network.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:10.079
Um, I was working for the printing company still in I uh Bell South, and um, and it was I, you know, I was purely working on printing and publishing.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:15.199
I had no involvement with the network aspect of what a company like Bell South does.
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.320
And the head of all of network operations called me.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:20.639
I didn't even know that he knew who I was.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.280
You know, I had seen him on stage, but I had never met him.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:28.559
And he called and he said, I'd like you to come interview for a job I've got open in the network organization.
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:31.280
And I thought to myself, this is really nice.
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:39.920
This is a token interview, you know, because I'm on a list somewhere, and there's no way he'd really consider me with zero experience and network for this job.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:42.239
So I went and sat down and talked with him.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:49.360
And um, about 30 minutes into the conversation, he paused and he said, Um, I just want to make sure that you understand what this is all about.
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:50.719
And I thought, well, here it comes.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:55.199
It's gonna say, you know, this is just me getting a chance to know you in case there's a future opportunity.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:00.000
And he said, You um, you are acting like I'm interviewing you for the job.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:05.440
And what this is about is you interviewing me to see if you'll come take this job and come work for me.
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.559
And I and he said, Because if you want it, this job is yours.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:09.039
Wow.
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:10.559
And I said, Why me?
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:20.159
And he said, Because you've got a network across this business who has seen you step up and do every job you've been asked to do and do it better than anybody else.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.719
They've seen you learn new jobs over and over again.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:27.599
They've seen how you collaborate with other people and the relationships that you build.
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:33.920
And every time that I told someone what I was looking for in this job, they said, Oh, you need to talk to Debbie's story.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.079
Um, he said, You've got a network that's working for you even when you're not in a room.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:43.039
And that's just the classic example of what a network is and how important it is.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:39:02.960
Um, one of the things that's so important for, in particular, women to understand is that research shows that women build networks that are bigger than men's networks, typically, broader, more people in their network, but on average, they are three levels lower than men's networks.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:13.039
And the way I've always interpreted that and seen it, I've seen it in action, is that we as women, we tend to build networks with people we're comfortable with.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:22.719
Number one, we lots of us think networking is sort of a dirty word, you know, it's a and we're uncomfortable doing what is the traditional view of networking.
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:33.599
And so we seek out people who are, you know, at a comparable level to us, who aren't going to judge us, who are who we think we can really openly share some of the challenges that we're experiencing.
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:34.960
And men don't do that.
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:50.000
Men naturally um seek out a network, people in their network who are multiple levels above them, because somehow men just naturally seem to understand that those are the people who are gonna get you where you need to be.
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.079
Those are the people who can open doors for you.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.519
Do they give you feedback?
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:53.920
Sure.
00:39:54.079 --> 00:40:03.599
But what's more important is they make they make other connections for you, they introduce you to people, they stick your their neck out for you, they open doors and they help you get jobs.
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.079
And and it's so true.
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:11.119
And I can't tell you how many times I, you know, I've coached men and women, of course, equally over my career.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:23.119
Every time I said to a man, I'm gonna introduce you to X, you know, who's an executive vice president, and I want to, you know, 30 days from now when we meet, I want to hear about how your meeting with him went.
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:24.559
Him or her.
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:30.000
Um, 30 days later, every man would come back and say, I reached out, I had the meeting, here's how it went.
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:37.440
30 days later, I can't tell you how many women came back and said, Well, he's busy, you know, he's a busy, she or he is a busy leader.
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.920
I just I don't know, you know, should I I didn't know how to reach out?
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:58.000
Uh when women just are more hesitant about, you know, reaching up and grabbing that ring that's been offered to you to make that connection and really build uh a relationship, a genuine relationship with someone who's in a powerful position.
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.679
So um as women, we just have to get used to doing it.
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:08.079
Everyone needs to get comfortable doing it because it truly is how it's it's truly how things happen.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:13.519
Your your colleagues who are at your same level can give you really valuable feedback.
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:18.480
They can make connections for you, but not in the same way that someone at two or three levels above can.
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:31.440
It's so important to just build that network and then also create your or find that mentor and the sponsor, which I think you talk a little bit about in the book, right?
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:32.320
I do, yes.
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:38.800
And can you uh explain the difference between the two of them and why they're important to have both?
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:39.760
Yes.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:45.199
Um, so I think about um, so I'm in the performing arts business now.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:52.239
Um, so I think about the difference between a mentor and a champ, uh what I call a champion or a sponsor.
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.119
Um a mentor is is like a coach, you know, so it's like an acting coach.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:04.960
You're gonna meet with them every you know day or week or month, and they're gonna give you great feedback and guidance and tell you how to improve your skills.
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:11.360
Um, you know, you can commiserate with them, but a sponsor is like your agent.
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:23.840
That's the guy that is charged with and and who genuinely has a vested interest in helping you succeed, get to the next level, get the the job, get selected.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.000
Um, and you you have to have both.
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:39.519
So you have to have a a um stable of mentors who can give you feedback, and that ought to be people who are like you, but a lot of people who are not like you, because you don't want your own behaviors and style just reinforced.
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:47.840
You you want people who press you to get out of your comfort zone and develop, you know, different styles, different capabilities, and different perspectives.
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:51.360
Um, sponsors you really have to be homegrown.
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:53.119
It's really, it's really tough.
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:55.679
You can't go to someone and say, Will you be my sponsor?
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:56.079
Right.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:43:03.840
Because a sponsor is someone who's willing to put their reputation on the line for you, to advocate for you, to open doors for you.
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:20.800
And in order to do that, they have to know and trust that you're gonna live up to your reputation, that you're gonna deliver when they open a door for you, uh, and that you're gonna be um you're gonna contribute to the respect and the reputation that they have and not detract from it.
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:24.719
So that has to be a very genuine relationship that's grown over time.
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.599
Definitely.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:33.920
And these uh I've experienced both of these in like throughout my career, and it is true having both is incredibly important.
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:41.199
But when you do find those sponsors and they learn about your reputation and they trust you and they know, they will go to bat for you.
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:52.880
So just be grateful when you find those sponsors because they'll help they're the difference between like really moving in your career and just trying to break through.
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:54.239
That's exactly it.
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:55.519
That's a great way to say it.
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:55.920
Mm-hmm.
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.760
The the other thing I would say about a sponsor, I've seen lots of people do this, you know.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.280
Find a sponsor and then they hang on for dear life and they think this is it.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:04.800
I've got my sponsor.
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:20.079
Um, you need more than one sponsor because what happens if that sponsor falls out of race or leaves, or you know, you have an issue with that sponsor, and you know, it becomes someone you no longer trust or um respect.
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:27.199
You just you just need to um diversify and ensure that you're not relying on one individual.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:28.880
It's very true.
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:31.679
That's a lot of pressure for the sponsor, I imagine, too.
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:35.039
Like, help me get out of the like I want to grow in my career.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:38.400
And the sponsor's like, okay, well, I need the right opportunity.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:40.880
I need to like get to know you a little bit more.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:45.119
So I can imagine the pressure that would be on that sponsor if they were the only one.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.239
Absolutely.
00:44:46.480 --> 00:45:01.440
And you know, you remind me, Sarah, so um, as I particularly when I was in the role of chief diversity officer, I had, you know, I figured if people got to me and asked me for a meeting without knowing me, they must have exhausted every other avenue through their own leadership.
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:04.000
And so I felt like I needed to meet with people.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:10.159
So, and I did, and I I willingly met with just pretty much anybody who asked to set up a meeting with me.
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:23.599
Um, there was a big difference between people who came to me and said, here's what I've done and here's what I love doing, and here's some stories about how I've driven, you know, how I've achieved success and how I've driven results and how I've led people.
00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:32.320
There's a big difference between that and someone who came and sat down with me and said, I really just want, can you just tell me how I can get from here?
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:48.000
And I and I'm, you know, literally, I mean, sort of to your point, relying on me to learn about them, to get to know them, to know what they wanted to do, and then give them some secret, some key that was going to unlock the a promotion for them.
00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:59.199
Um, and you know, to me that was a difference between someone who was willing to do the work and understood how to demonstrate their own value, and someone who just wanted someone else to do the work to get them promoted.
00:45:59.440 --> 00:45:59.760
Right.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:00.480
Exactly.
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:01.280
Oh my gosh.
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:06.000
I can't imagine sitting in that meeting and just being like, I I don't know.
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:06.960
Like, what do you do?
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:08.880
Can you help me a little bit with this?
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.000
Who are you and what do you do now and what do you want to do?
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:19.039
And I and I'll tell you, you know, it the people that came to me and I'd never met before, but they had an engaging conversation.
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.239
I left with this real impression of who they are and what they're capable of.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.559
I was willing to, first of all, I remembered them.
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:31.760
Secondly, I was willing to meet with them again, versus the people who sat with me and made me work for the whole conversation.
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:40.239
I it was um not easy to agree to follow-up meetings with them because uh it was uncomfortable for me and it was a lot of work for me.
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:40.559
Right.
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:43.199
And I didn't feel I could really be successful in helping them.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.199
And it shouldn't be much work for you.
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:45.840
Right.
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:54.320
Um, and I will say, as somebody who's been on the other side of reaching out to somebody who I was like, well, I think they'd be a good mentor.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:03.599
Send the email, even if you're hesitating, because it's one of those things where I did it, it was after our second time of meeting her.
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:05.599
And she was a senior director in my organization.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:07.039
So I was still kind of intimidated.
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:10.480
I was like, oh, she's really cool and I think we'd like do well.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.159
And I just went ahead and sent the email.
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:13.840
She's like, actually, I was thinking the same thing.
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.280
I'm so glad you reached out.
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.119
Um, let's definitely grab coffee.
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:18.639
And it was just such a relief.
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:24.639
And I like, even after leaving the organization, we still grab wine or like virtually whatever we can.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:27.519
And it's turned into just such a good relationship.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:34.000
So for those that are concerned about how to find a mentor, just kind of see who's in your network right now.
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:44.800
And if there's somebody who you're like, even just have a little inkling, like maybe I just I'm curious more about their story and reach out to them and just send them a note, but also don't make it difficult for them.
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:48.239
Like actually have a plan when you're going into that first conversation.
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.199
Make the conversation easy and effortless for them.
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:56.079
And I, to your point, uh, what's the worst that can happen when you email someone?
00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:57.920
Not everybody's gonna say yes.
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:00.000
You know, sometimes emails just get lost.
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:01.679
So don't take it personally.
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.719
It's not, it's hard hardly ever personal.
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:12.960
It is just a function of whether that person is, you know, focused on mentoring, has the time to mentor, saw your email, you know, responded.
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:14.400
But what's the worst that can happen?
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.360
So you don't get a response where they say no, move on.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:26.400
And then there's one story I do want to tell about why it's important, at least from my experience, of why I needed a mentor so bad.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:39.679
Um, at one point in my career, I had entered a new role and I encountered a just a very awkward, not like it was just one of those things where I felt like I was in between two people trying to do something.
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:42.480
And two people were telling me very different things.
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:50.239
And I was brand new in this role and I knew I was like, there's no way I can look at this objective objectively and embrace it.
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:56.880
So not even 24 hours later, I sent my one of my mentors a note saying, I'm in a really awkward situation.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:58.079
I have no idea how to handle it.
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.360
Can I pick your brain?
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:06.639
And the next day, she was able to sit down with me for 15 minutes and I was able to just kind of dump on her, like, this is what I'm going through.
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:12.320
And she gave me like, she was like, Okay, based on what you're saying and what I know, this is what I would recommend you do.
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.760
And without that, it would, I would have just been totally lost.
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:20.880
I would have had no idea how to encounter a situation I had never been in before.
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:28.000
And I was incredibly grateful just to have that as something in my back pocket of like, okay, I have no idea what to do.
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:31.760
I need somebody who has had experience like this before.
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:32.400
Yeah.
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:43.920
You know, um, it's the other, it's the other thing that to me is very important about a network is that if you are gonna grow in your career, it means you're gonna get out of your comfort zone.
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:52.320
It means you're gonna step into roles that you've never been in before and and find sit yourself in situations that you've never had to handle before.
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:56.559
That is, you know, that's what growth is about, is being out of your comfort zone.
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:12.400
And it is so much easier to step into take those big steps and those big risks if you know you've got a network of people who have your back and can give you advice and are not going to let you fail, that you can go sit down with and say, I have no idea how to handle this situation.
00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:13.599
Help me handle it.
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.480
Seriously, that's I mean, yeah.
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:21.039
I mean, the network is really, you know, in some ways, sort of the wind, you know, it's the wind at your back.
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:24.719
Um it's not, it's not just the people who can help you up, right?
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:30.239
As we talked about sponsors, but it's the people who are your peers who can give you input.
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:42.639
It's the wind at your back who can keep you leaning forward when you kind of, you know, have those moments when you pause and say, wait a minute, I'm not experienced enough to take on that role or handle this situation.
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:45.840
And they can go give you a little nudge from behind and say, Yes, you are.
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:48.079
And here's my here's how I suggest you handle it.
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:50.000
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:58.159
You talked about a story in your book where um you were kind of hesitant to ask for help.
00:50:58.239 --> 00:50:59.679
Do you know which one I'm talking about?
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:00.239
Yes.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.320
Do you do you mind going into that a little bit?
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:03.280
Sure.
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:16.960
As painful as it is, so I um I had again been promoted and um was now sitting at the the head table, sort of, you know, the leadership team reporting to the president and brand new in the role, a couple weeks.
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:23.360
And it was time for our annual presentation of our business plans to the entire company.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:36.400
So each of the leaders would typically every year stand up in front of the entire, you know, thousands of employees on a stage and give our business plans, you know, our what we uh planned and expected over the next year.
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:42.719
And I was so, you know, completely brand new to the team I had taken on and brand new to this leadership team.
00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:49.280
And so the president came to me and he said, Look, you don't, you know, this is you're this would be unfair for me to expect you to do this.
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:51.840
And so you don't have to give this presentation.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:52:02.159
And I, and I was so young and so eager and so inexperienced and so full of all this passion about this new role I had that I was like, no, I want to do this.
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:06.000
I have so much I want to convey and share about, you know, where we're going, what we want to do.
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:08.559
And um, and so I said, I've got this.
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.239
I can put, you know, I can do this.
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:14.880
Um, I had never put together, you know, these are again in the 80s.
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:23.440
So PowerPoint, I don't even know if it was PowerPoint at the time, but uh, you know, I had never built a presentation, never given a presentation like this in front of the team.
00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:30.159
Um, I did, I had the brief moment of reflection where I said, I should probably ask one of my peers for help, right?
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:33.920
Get their input on how you do this and make sure I can do it successfully.
00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:37.760
And then I thought to myself, I had the ego moment, which is bad, you know.
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:39.519
So here's one of the mistakes I made.
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:48.000
I said, Oh my gosh, if I ask them, they're all gonna roll their eyes and go, she's so, you know, yes, see, she's young, she shouldn't have been promoted into this job.
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:50.000
It's premature, she doesn't know what she's doing.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:51.920
So I went, no, I can do this.
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:52.960
I'll just show them all.
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.840
So I go create, create my PowerPoint presentation.
00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:06.639
And it was one of those horrific presentations with like four charts, detailed, you know, charts on every slide and a lot of paragraphs explaining them.
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:08.880
Every word I wanted to say.
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:13.360
You know, those, you know, the classic everything you don't do in a PowerPoint.
00:53:13.519 --> 00:53:13.840
Uh-huh.
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.400
Um, and when it was time to give the presentation, the president, you know, president stood up, gave his.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:23.599
There was the the HR VP stayed up, stood up and give hit, gave his, and then it was me because I was operations.
00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:29.440
And I stood up and started going through my presentation, going through, you know, slide by slide.
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:50.000
Um, you know, I got to like slide two, and I'm still explaining the second chart on slide two, and I'm kind of conscious of people shifting around their seats, and I'm looking at the clock that's in front of me, and I'm going, oh my gosh, I've had 10 minutes for this presentation, and I'm now on slide two of like 20, and I'm almost five minutes in.
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:52.239
So there's no way I can get through this.
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:58.719
So, you know, so I'm too inexperienced to even figure out how to get through this um in an elegant way.
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:04.400
So I I start talking faster, you know, and then louder too, because that always helps, right?
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:07.840
And now I start looking around for support in the audience.
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.360
I'm looking for my friends, right?
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:12.880
You know, and um nobody will make eye contact with me.
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:16.159
So now I look down at the front row at my boss.
00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:19.920
I'm, you know, I'm just looking for him, just give me a thumbs up, you know, you can get through this.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.440
And I no, they're not making eye, he won't make eye contact with me.
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:24.320
Nobody will look at me.
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:25.360
They're all fidgeting.
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:30.079
So I knew I was in a moment of total failure publicly in front of the whole company.
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:30.480
Oh.
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:32.480
The opposite of what I wanted to achieve.
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:36.719
And so um, you know, at the end of my 10 minutes, I said, there's so much more I'd love to share.
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:40.559
Um, you know, we'll have to follow up in a separate setting and I'll share more with you.
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:45.440
So I slunk off the stage and um and I went through the rest of that afternoon.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.960
I mean, it was so clear how miserably I'd failed, and everybody felt badly for me.
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:57.840
Um, and I went home that night, as as lots of people will do, but I think women are particularly adept at doing this.
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:03.760
I kept playing the tape over and over in my head, beating myself up, killing, I mean, I was killing myself.
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:05.440
I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep.
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:10.239
And um, and I finally said to myself, this is doing me no good.
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:16.559
And I I can keep doing this to myself, or I can figure out how to fix this and I can address it head on.
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:21.760
And so, very first thing the next morning, I got there before my boss, and I didn't even set up a meeting.
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:26.320
I walked into his office as soon as I knew he was there, and I said, I just need five minutes.
00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:36.800
And I said, Um, I just want you to know that I know I failed yesterday, and what's more important is that I know I failed you, and I am sure you are so disappointed in me.
00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:45.679
I'm sure this reflected badly on you because you promoted me and you put me in this position, and now I'm publicly showing how inept I am in front of the entire company.
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:47.199
And I just want you to know I'm gonna fix it.
00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:53.679
I'm gonna take a public speaking course, a presentation course, and I'm gonna fix this, and this will never happen again.
00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:54.000
Yeah.
00:55:54.159 --> 00:56:00.800
And I did, I went and took this, you know, terrible, miserable course where to see myself videotaped and, you know, see how that worked.
00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.039
And um, but I got better.
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:10.880
And when I there was a couple of months after I finished both of those courses, there was another opportunity for a presentation to the whole company.
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:24.400
And I went to my boss and I said, I know this is gonna be a really hard request for you to accept, but I I need you to let me do this one because I know I can do it and do it well.
00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:30.000
And it's in I cannot be defined by that failure that I had all those months ago.
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:37.599
I need to reset the the expectation and reset the understanding of what I'm uh capable of doing.
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:40.719
And so, can you trust me enough to let me do this?
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:46.320
And, you know, I saw his a big bulk as Ziz Adams Apple worked its way up and down, and and he said, I will.
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:48.000
And I did it and I nailed it.
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:52.320
And, you know, so it's it's a another, there's a couple lessons there.
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:59.840
As you said, starting out, it's about I should have asked for help from the very beginning and not worried about how people were gonna take that.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:09.519
Um, but the other lesson is sometimes public failures lead to huge improvements and you know, good things come out of them.
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:18.400
And over the course of my career, I got I I became known as someone who could stand up in front of a group or a team and deliver a great presentation.
00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:22.320
And to be a great leader of people, you have to have that skill.
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:31.119
And if I had never failed and never had a compelling reason to go take those courses and get better, I might never have developed that skill.
00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:37.119
So I see that failure as you know an example of sometimes failure is accidental.
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:47.199
And um, but it's always an opportunity failure, it is never a life sentence, it's a life lesson and it's an opportunity to grow and do better next time.
00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:48.400
I love that.
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:51.920
It's not a life sentence, it's a life lesson.
00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:53.199
Oh, that's great.
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:53.760
Okay.
00:57:54.079 --> 00:58:02.719
So I have been uh closing out episodes with asking the guest what their favorite book recommendation is for the audience.
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:08.239
Uh, it could be professional or personal, but I'd love to hear what you would recommend.
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:19.199
Oh, I could recommend so many, you know, business-related books, self-improvement books, um, but they would probably be a lot of the same books that other other um speakers have recommended.
00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:23.360
And so I'm gonna recommend one that may be unique and a little bit different.
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:29.360
It's called Grit, The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth.
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:36.079
Um, and it's, you know, I guess I gravitate to this book partly because I believe so passionately in her message.
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:39.280
I, but I think it's an important message that doesn't get told enough.
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:49.599
And it's about the the fact that passion and perseverance are at least as strong indicators of talent as IQ-related competencies.
00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:58.000
And um, and I've seen it over, I've seen it in as I look back in my own career, I've seen it as I look back over the people I've mentored.
00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:01.119
Um, it is a huge predictor of success.
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:08.639
Your passion and your your the your willingness to have an idea, a thought, a dream, and hang on to it no matter what.
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:19.599
And then the perseverance to keep going and pursuing it, no matter what obstacles you hit, no matter who tells you you can't do it, no matter how many speed bumps you go through.
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:29.519
It's the pe the the people who achieve great success have both of those things, the ability to keep going and never let anyone tell you what you can't achieve.
00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:30.559
That's awesome.
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:34.320
I haven't read that book, but I've heard so many great things about it.
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:34.880
Yeah.
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:35.920
It's a great book.
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:38.400
And even she's a she's a great speaker too.
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:46.000
So you can listen to um a TED talk or um, you know, some of her interviews and and get just as much out of it as the book.
00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:46.719
Awesome.
00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:53.199
I will definitely put her links in the show notes so that other people can find the book as well as some of her speeches.
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:56.880
Um, well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Debbie.
00:59:56.960 --> 01:00:02.400
I've learned so much from you over the course of years, and I'm excited that we were able to share these stories on the show.
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:03.280
Thank you.
01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:18.000
It's uh as as you can tell, I have quite a bit of passion about sharing these, you know, these uh lessons of success with other people so that you know I just always want people to be able to find the stepping stones to success faster than I did.
01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:20.480
Go faster and go higher than I did.
01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:24.000
That's greatly appreciated, I can say from experience.
01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:26.239
So thanks again, Debbie.
01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:27.280
Thank you, Sarah.
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:30.159
Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into It.
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:36.880
If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help future listeners.
01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:41.039
If you want to learn more about the podcast or me, go to leadintoit.co.
01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:42.880
That's leadintoit.co.
01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:44.719
Thanks again.