WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Label Sessions Presents,
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the podcast where we talk to the most interesting
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people about all the things you need to know
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over the next hundred days from innovation to
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business, design, tech, and culture. I'm Fuzzlin
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Esau and today we're joined by two brand new
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label mates, all experts in their field, as well
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as our own content expert, Josh Nixon. Hello
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and welcome everyone. Just a quick rundown on
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who's joining us today. We have Dan Bauer, the
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entrepreneur who turns ideas into businesses
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that last from senior marketing roles at Citibank
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and Mastercard to founding and scaling MBA exchange
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into a global company. Dan helps founders and
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leadership teams turn ambiguous ambition into
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structured growth that survives beyond the founder.
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Welcome, Dan. Thank you. And then we have Nena.
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Hemerson, the brand strategist turning sustainability
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into behavioral change from shaping global brands
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like Heineken to scaling that power into a recognized
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voice in the energy transition. Nana helps organizations
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translate sustainability ambition into culturally
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intelligent brands that drive real world action.
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Welcome Nana. Thank you. Good to be here. AI's
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biggest challenge right now isn't whether it's
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getting smarter. It's more around where the organizations
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can actually use them in a way that moves their
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business, their teams, their processes forward
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instead of just creating additional cost confusion
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or you know, false confidence. If the real barriers
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to AI success aren't model accuracy, but implementation,
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what should leaders be fixing first? Capability,
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governance, culture, something else entirely?
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Dan, I'm going to throw this one at you, as I
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know how you feel about AI. Sure. What do you
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think leaders should be fixing first when it
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comes to implementation versus just adoption?
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Well, I think it's, you know, within a large
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organization that cultural piece needs to be
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addressed because you've got people who are either
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thinking, this is going to replace me. Two, this
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is going to make my job so easy I can take another
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moonlighting job in the evening. You know, or
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three, I love this. It's going to make me better.
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It'll make me smarter. It'll make me faster and
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so on. sort of setting a tone for how to embrace
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it, how to use it, how not to use it is critical.
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Not only for the wellbeing of that employee or
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that teammate, but also for the customer. They
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have doubts about how much or how little AI is
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being used in the work product that they're getting.
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And if they're cynical, they're gonna think,
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well, my teenage... son or daughter could have
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solved this with the chat GPT. Or, wow, these
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guys are really thinking, and they really put
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their brain to work, and they used AI, but this
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work product could only come from a smart, reliable,
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insightful person. So setting that cultural tone
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for how much to use it, how to use it, how not
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to use it, is critical both for the mental health
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of the person who's delivering the work product
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as well as the expectations and interpretations
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of the customer and the sooner that set the better
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and everyone is looking to the corner office
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to set that tone and It has to happen quickly
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and consistently. So that's sort of where I'm
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that is right now. It's ranges between a toy
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and the Holy Grail Everyone's trying to figure
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out where on that continuum they are and where
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their organization is and I think a a CEO can
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help narrow the bring the bookends together and
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help narrow the interpretation and the implementation
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of AI. I definitely agree with you, Dan, on that
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one, because I've just come out or at least trying
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to come out from a place where I've seen the
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dark side. of AI, I had to, you know, deep dive
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into it because one of the voices on HHA network
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did an article recently on AI. And, you know,
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so researching all of that, making sure the article
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was open up and stuff made me open my eyes to
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quite a lot of things that are going on around
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it from the natural resources that are, you know,
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pillage so to speak in order to facilitate it
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to the endangering of the minority or the vulnerable
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in our society, to the fact that most of AI is
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actually going unregulated or unchecked. without
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the right guardrails or regulation or legislation
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in place to ensure that the scaling of what is
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being tagged to be the solution for some of the
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challenges we're facing can be a bit concerning.
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So now that I've said all of that out loud, so
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you know I'm coming from a dark side to being
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more relevant to the conversation we're having.
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All of the things you said in terms of the governance,
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the culture face, all of that, it needs to be
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as in leadership needs to take the bull by the
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haunts and have that conversation with their
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teams. They need to, because just like it was,
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you know, it is with using the internet, how
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you can't do such certain things at work on the
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internet, you can't, you know, all of that, the
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same needs to be done for AI. And it's shocking
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that a lot of businesses aren't. aren't doing
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that, especially the fact that the industry is
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not regulating itself. Businesses need to do
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that, not just to protect your IP in terms of
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what information is being used or accessed with
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your team or staff or people using it. For that
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reason alone, they need to take ownership on
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how that is used. within their business. So first,
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you know, insights as to who is your audience.
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So who are they engaging with or what is your
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source of income as a company would obviously
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determine how your team use it and what they
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use it for. So understanding that would then
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allow you know the best because you can't stop
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them from using it. I've actually worked in a
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business where the CEO was like. The AI is the
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devil, is the enemy, no use enough AI, no record
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of meetings, no, like it was zero. But the thing
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was people still used it because he can't stop
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them. So you and that obviously is not a good
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way to go at it. Say, okay, who's our audience?
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What are the people? What are the best partner
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AI tools we can use as a business? How do we
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use it in such a way that our IP is so protected,
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you know, information that can't be used or stored?
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Like, you need to... give that and then enable
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people so once you create that guardrails you
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create an environment where they learn how to
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use it learn how it's relevant for the role that
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they take within the company and then still protect
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your company as a whole from an industry that
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is scaling so fast and not yet regulated and
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then pick the best partner tool AI to work with
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depending on what you want to facilitate like
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you know whether you're in finance or so on and
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so forth they are the right ways to go about
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this so I definitely agree we've done in that
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area and I definitely that they should navigate
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how it is used especially within the business
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and then IT, the IT department needs to be a
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speed because if we regulated the use of internet,
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and I don't see why we shouldn't do the same
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thing for AI because you're not going to stop
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it from happening. And then you then have the
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other aspect of ESG. So what is the impact in
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terms of the use? There's all of this information
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on how it's impacting the climate, the water
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usage. How can you get ahead as a company? So
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if you're a B Corp or whatever commitments you've
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made, how can you get ahead in that and then
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start making steps towards it? So there's a lot
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of conversations that can be had, but it depends
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on what you do as a company, what you want to
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focus on and how you want to, you know, like
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step ahead and take, minimise the risk that comes
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with using something that is still, that still
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doesn't have the proper guardrails in place.
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So it does have the solutions that it promises,
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but it could be a Hail Mary or a black box, depending
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on how you look at it. I was going to add, I
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think that we talked about culture and the significance
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of it in the pace and the depth of AI acceptance
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and use. This governance issue that you raised,
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I think that in a way that's the diciest because
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there's not even yet agreement on who the governor
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should be. And I think until there's buy -in
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and respect and substance to to the governance
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without understanding who and why that individual
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or that office or that agency is the governor
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for this, that has to happen first. And I think
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we're quite a ways from that happening. I think
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everyone would love it to be a nice, tranquil,
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you know, pasture where we can all pick daisies
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and, you know, enjoy the sunshine. But we're
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a long way from that. And I think this governance
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It's not even a debate yet. It's a cluster. It's
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a shouting back. Yeah, exactly. Which is such
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a shame and which then emphasizes what I was
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saying, that implementation now becomes the organization's
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problem. it's not happening on that side. So
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it becomes theirs because otherwise AI will expose
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gaps in the culture within the business. So it
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exposes gaps in culture, in governance, in roles,
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in decision rights, in feedback loops. It is
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going to expose all of that because AI kind of
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accelerates or exacerbates issues that already
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exist. So capability without governance is chaos.
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You just have chaos. you know you can give everyone
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the tool but if you're not kind of regulating
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how that's being used within your own business
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then you invite chaos and in the end culture
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trumps capability because when you have people
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who come from different backgrounds people who
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come from places that you know, see AI as a devil
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or people who call, even different generations
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that view it in different ways, just like you
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mentioned during the dot -com era, like you have
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different generations engaging with it in that
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way, then culture trumps capability. So if your
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organization fears mistakes more than it values
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interaction, AI becomes a threat instead of a
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leverage. So you just, they just need to get
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ahead of it. Well, it's elevated this competition
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of who's the smartest one in the room. There
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used to be a natural selection of that process.
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Eventually you ran out of substance or experience
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or confidence and the other side prevailed as
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the smartest in the room. But now, with your
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tablet open next to you, this game has extra,
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you know, stoppage time and it continues into
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more of a cage match of taking the other person's
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response, plugging it into your AI resource.
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It comes up with a response. Take that. Here's
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what you said, and I'm building on top of that.
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And so where does this dual end? It can be quite
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counterproductive. And I think getting our arms
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around it and slowing it down a bit is going
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to help people make better decisions and implement
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with more efficiency and continuity. Dan, I couldn't
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agree more. I'm all for progress, but I definitely
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agree. Like if we could, you know, cause we can't
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stop it from growing. I was, I was, and this
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was one of the things I'm not very proud of.
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I was, it was on social media. I think it was
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environment association. And one of the things
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talks about how AI, you know, causes such a huge
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environmental impact and everybody should stop
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using AI. I was like, come on guys, this is a
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moot. conversation, because people will not stop
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using it. So I said, let's be in the habit of
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providing solutions that will actually be doable
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and can work. You just saying stop using AI is
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that sheep has sold, that sheep has sold. So
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we can come together to try and slow it down
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a bit, put the necessary guardrails in place
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to ensure People use it responsibly and ensure
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people use it in a relevant way because like
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I said before, AI will exacerbate issues that
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already exist. So if you already have a terrible
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culture or way of doing things, it will just
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make it worse.
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Hello and welcome to Label Sessions Presents,
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the podcast where we talk to the most interesting
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people about all the things you need to know
00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:08.320
over the next hundred days from innovation to
00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:11.500
business, design, tech, and culture. I'm Fuzzlin
00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:14.599
Esau and today we're joined by two brand new
00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.640
label mates, all experts in their field, as well
00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.300
as our own content expert, Josh Nixon. Hello
00:00:21.300 --> 00:00:23.179
and welcome everyone. Just a quick rundown on
00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:26.079
who's joining us today. We have Dan Bauer, the
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entrepreneur who turns ideas into businesses
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that last from senior marketing roles at Citibank
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and Mastercard to founding and scaling MBA exchange
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into a global company. Dan helps founders and
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leadership teams turn ambiguous ambition into
00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.100
structured growth that survives beyond the founder.
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Welcome, Dan. Thank you. And then we have Nena.
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Hemerson, the brand strategist turning sustainability
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into behavioral change from shaping global brands
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:56.159
like Heineken to scaling that power into a recognized
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voice in the energy transition. Nana helps organizations
00:00:59.859 --> 00:01:02.560
translate sustainability ambition into culturally
00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.959
intelligent brands that drive real world action.
00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:10.280
Welcome Nana. Thank you. Good to be here. AI's
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biggest challenge right now isn't whether it's
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getting smarter. It's more around where the organizations
00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.859
can actually use them in a way that moves their
00:01:18.859 --> 00:01:21.739
business, their teams, their processes forward
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instead of just creating additional cost confusion
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or you know, false confidence. If the real barriers
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to AI success aren't model accuracy, but implementation,
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what should leaders be fixing first? Capability,
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governance, culture, something else entirely?
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Dan, I'm going to throw this one at you, as I
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know how you feel about AI. Sure. What do you
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think leaders should be fixing first when it
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comes to implementation versus just adoption?
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Well, I think it's, you know, within a large
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organization that cultural piece needs to be
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addressed because you've got people who are either
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thinking, this is going to replace me. Two, this
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is going to make my job so easy I can take another
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moonlighting job in the evening. You know, or
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three, I love this. It's going to make me better.
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It'll make me smarter. It'll make me faster and
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so on. sort of setting a tone for how to embrace
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it, how to use it, how not to use it is critical.
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Not only for the wellbeing of that employee or
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that teammate, but also for the customer. They
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have doubts about how much or how little AI is
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being used in the work product that they're getting.
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And if they're cynical, they're gonna think,
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well, my teenage... son or daughter could have
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solved this with the chat GPT. Or, wow, these
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guys are really thinking, and they really put
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their brain to work, and they used AI, but this
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work product could only come from a smart, reliable,
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insightful person. So setting that cultural tone
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for how much to use it, how to use it, how not
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to use it, is critical both for the mental health
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of the person who's delivering the work product
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as well as the expectations and interpretations
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of the customer and the sooner that set the better
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and everyone is looking to the corner office
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to set that tone and It has to happen quickly
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and consistently. So that's sort of where I'm
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that is right now. It's ranges between a toy
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and the Holy Grail Everyone's trying to figure
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out where on that continuum they are and where
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their organization is and I think a a CEO can
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help narrow the bring the bookends together and
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help narrow the interpretation and the implementation
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of AI. I definitely agree with you, Dan, on that
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one, because I've just come out or at least trying
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to come out from a place where I've seen the
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dark side. of AI, I had to, you know, deep dive
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into it because one of the voices on HHA network
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did an article recently on AI. And, you know,
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so researching all of that, making sure the article
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was open up and stuff made me open my eyes to
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quite a lot of things that are going on around
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it from the natural resources that are, you know,
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pillage so to speak in order to facilitate it
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to the endangering of the minority or the vulnerable
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in our society, to the fact that most of AI is
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actually going unregulated or unchecked. without
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the right guardrails or regulation or legislation
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in place to ensure that the scaling of what is
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being tagged to be the solution for some of the
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challenges we're facing can be a bit concerning.
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So now that I've said all of that out loud, so
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you know I'm coming from a dark side to being
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more relevant to the conversation we're having.
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All of the things you said in terms of the governance,
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the culture face, all of that, it needs to be
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as in leadership needs to take the bull by the
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haunts and have that conversation with their
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teams. They need to, because just like it was,
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you know, it is with using the internet, how
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you can't do such certain things at work on the
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internet, you can't, you know, all of that, the
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same needs to be done for AI. And it's shocking
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that a lot of businesses aren't. aren't doing
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that, especially the fact that the industry is
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not regulating itself. Businesses need to do
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that, not just to protect your IP in terms of
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what information is being used or accessed with
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your team or staff or people using it. For that
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reason alone, they need to take ownership on
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how that is used. within their business. So first,
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you know, insights as to who is your audience.
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So who are they engaging with or what is your
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source of income as a company would obviously
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determine how your team use it and what they
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use it for. So understanding that would then
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allow you know the best because you can't stop
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them from using it. I've actually worked in a
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business where the CEO was like. The AI is the
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devil, is the enemy, no use enough AI, no record
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of meetings, no, like it was zero. But the thing
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was people still used it because he can't stop
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them. So you and that obviously is not a good
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way to go at it. Say, okay, who's our audience?
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What are the people? What are the best partner
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AI tools we can use as a business? How do we
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use it in such a way that our IP is so protected,
00:07:00.250 --> 00:07:02.730
you know, information that can't be used or stored?
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Like, you need to... give that and then enable
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people so once you create that guardrails you
00:07:07.730 --> 00:07:09.910
create an environment where they learn how to
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use it learn how it's relevant for the role that
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they take within the company and then still protect
00:07:15.829 --> 00:07:18.009
your company as a whole from an industry that
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is scaling so fast and not yet regulated and
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then pick the best partner tool AI to work with
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depending on what you want to facilitate like
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you know whether you're in finance or so on and
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so forth they are the right ways to go about
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this so I definitely agree we've done in that
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area and I definitely that they should navigate
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how it is used especially within the business
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and then IT, the IT department needs to be a
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speed because if we regulated the use of internet,
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and I don't see why we shouldn't do the same
00:07:48.569 --> 00:07:50.750
thing for AI because you're not going to stop
00:07:50.750 --> 00:07:53.790
it from happening. And then you then have the
00:07:53.790 --> 00:07:56.610
other aspect of ESG. So what is the impact in
00:07:56.610 --> 00:07:58.829
terms of the use? There's all of this information
00:07:58.829 --> 00:08:01.449
on how it's impacting the climate, the water
00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:04.850
usage. How can you get ahead as a company? So
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if you're a B Corp or whatever commitments you've
00:08:07.810 --> 00:08:10.829
made, how can you get ahead in that and then
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start making steps towards it? So there's a lot
00:08:13.170 --> 00:08:15.860
of conversations that can be had, but it depends
00:08:15.860 --> 00:08:19.339
on what you do as a company, what you want to
00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:22.860
focus on and how you want to, you know, like
00:08:22.860 --> 00:08:27.600
step ahead and take, minimise the risk that comes
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.939
with using something that is still, that still
00:08:29.939 --> 00:08:31.939
doesn't have the proper guardrails in place.
00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:35.240
So it does have the solutions that it promises,
00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:40.860
but it could be a Hail Mary or a black box, depending
00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:45.259
on how you look at it. I was going to add, I
00:08:45.259 --> 00:08:48.639
think that we talked about culture and the significance
00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:55.539
of it in the pace and the depth of AI acceptance
00:08:55.539 --> 00:08:58.840
and use. This governance issue that you raised,
00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:02.679
I think that in a way that's the diciest because
00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:05.259
there's not even yet agreement on who the governor
00:09:05.259 --> 00:09:08.460
should be. And I think until there's buy -in
00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:15.000
and respect and substance to to the governance
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without understanding who and why that individual
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or that office or that agency is the governor
00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.259
for this, that has to happen first. And I think
00:09:26.259 --> 00:09:29.019
we're quite a ways from that happening. I think
00:09:29.019 --> 00:09:31.740
everyone would love it to be a nice, tranquil,
00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:35.120
you know, pasture where we can all pick daisies
00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.279
and, you know, enjoy the sunshine. But we're
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:42.039
a long way from that. And I think this governance
00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:46.419
It's not even a debate yet. It's a cluster. It's
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a shouting back. Yeah, exactly. Which is such
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a shame and which then emphasizes what I was
00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:56.700
saying, that implementation now becomes the organization's
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problem. it's not happening on that side. So
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it becomes theirs because otherwise AI will expose
00:10:02.590 --> 00:10:05.250
gaps in the culture within the business. So it
00:10:05.250 --> 00:10:08.370
exposes gaps in culture, in governance, in roles,
00:10:08.570 --> 00:10:11.049
in decision rights, in feedback loops. It is
00:10:11.049 --> 00:10:13.730
going to expose all of that because AI kind of
00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:16.870
accelerates or exacerbates issues that already
00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:20.669
exist. So capability without governance is chaos.
00:10:20.909 --> 00:10:23.809
You just have chaos. you know you can give everyone
00:10:23.809 --> 00:10:25.649
the tool but if you're not kind of regulating
00:10:25.649 --> 00:10:28.110
how that's being used within your own business
00:10:28.110 --> 00:10:31.610
then you invite chaos and in the end culture
00:10:31.610 --> 00:10:34.149
trumps capability because when you have people
00:10:34.149 --> 00:10:36.850
who come from different backgrounds people who
00:10:36.850 --> 00:10:39.820
come from places that you know, see AI as a devil
00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:42.480
or people who call, even different generations
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:45.240
that view it in different ways, just like you
00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:47.639
mentioned during the dot -com era, like you have
00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:50.320
different generations engaging with it in that
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.279
way, then culture trumps capability. So if your
00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:56.379
organization fears mistakes more than it values
00:10:56.379 --> 00:10:59.759
interaction, AI becomes a threat instead of a
00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:02.159
leverage. So you just, they just need to get
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.940
ahead of it. Well, it's elevated this competition
00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:09.539
of who's the smartest one in the room. There
00:11:09.539 --> 00:11:11.960
used to be a natural selection of that process.
00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.679
Eventually you ran out of substance or experience
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.759
or confidence and the other side prevailed as
00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:22.899
the smartest in the room. But now, with your
00:11:22.899 --> 00:11:27.399
tablet open next to you, this game has extra,
00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:32.360
you know, stoppage time and it continues into
00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.860
more of a cage match of taking the other person's
00:11:35.860 --> 00:11:39.750
response, plugging it into your AI resource.
00:11:40.389 --> 00:11:44.190
It comes up with a response. Take that. Here's
00:11:44.190 --> 00:11:45.990
what you said, and I'm building on top of that.
00:11:46.110 --> 00:11:51.149
And so where does this dual end? It can be quite
00:11:51.149 --> 00:11:55.350
counterproductive. And I think getting our arms
00:11:55.350 --> 00:11:58.929
around it and slowing it down a bit is going
00:11:58.929 --> 00:12:01.350
to help people make better decisions and implement
00:12:01.350 --> 00:12:05.399
with more efficiency and continuity. Dan, I couldn't
00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:09.340
agree more. I'm all for progress, but I definitely
00:12:09.340 --> 00:12:12.059
agree. Like if we could, you know, cause we can't
00:12:12.059 --> 00:12:14.679
stop it from growing. I was, I was, and this
00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:16.320
was one of the things I'm not very proud of.
00:12:16.460 --> 00:12:19.279
I was, it was on social media. I think it was
00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:21.820
environment association. And one of the things
00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:25.720
talks about how AI, you know, causes such a huge
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:27.860
environmental impact and everybody should stop
00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:31.019
using AI. I was like, come on guys, this is a
00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:34.740
moot. conversation, because people will not stop
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:38.080
using it. So I said, let's be in the habit of
00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:41.759
providing solutions that will actually be doable
00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:45.899
and can work. You just saying stop using AI is
00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:49.960
that sheep has sold, that sheep has sold. So
00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:53.539
we can come together to try and slow it down
00:12:53.539 --> 00:12:55.860
a bit, put the necessary guardrails in place
00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:59.070
to ensure People use it responsibly and ensure
00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:01.210
people use it in a relevant way because like
00:13:01.210 --> 00:13:04.850
I said before, AI will exacerbate issues that
00:13:04.850 --> 00:13:07.929
already exist. So if you already have a terrible
00:13:07.929 --> 00:13:10.330
culture or way of doing things, it will just
00:13:10.330 --> 00:13:11.149
make it worse.
