Inside the complicated system keeping elections secure

WEBVTT
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Let's review some facts about
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how elections are administered
in the United States.
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Despite all the talk of
hackable voting machines...
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About 98% of Americans vote on paper.
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And when those paper
ballots are then counted,
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they're subject to great scrutiny.
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There were multiple people involved,
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people from opposite parties
reviewing everything.
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And our elections aren't
a centralized process,
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even the federal ones.
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They're administered across
more than 175,000 separate
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precincts across the United States.
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The diffusion
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of responsibility is a
feature and not a flaw.
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Physical paper ballots,
bipartisan review,
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24/7 oversight, audits, recounts,
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decentralization - all of this adds up
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to an exceedingly complex
but secure election system.
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Despite all of this,
Americans are trusting their
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elections less.
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In 2024, after the election,
77% of Americans thought
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that their votes were counted accurately.
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Going into the 2026 midterms
in just a few weeks,
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that number's fallen to about 60%.
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And that's fallen across
party lines as well.
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Today's guest, Bill
Gates, leads the Mechanics
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of Democracy Laboratory at
Arizona State University,
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or MODL, where he works to
make elections more secure,
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transparent and resilient,
training the next generation
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of election workers, doing research
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and combating misinformation.
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From Arizona State
University, I'm Pete Zrioka
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and this is Lab Coat Optional, the show
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where we bring advanced
research out of the lab
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and into your headphones.
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Today, why trust in elections is fading
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and why understanding how
elections work may be one
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of the best ways to rebuild that trust.
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Bill, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having me.
When I first talked
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to you about coming on the show,
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you said something that stuck with me.
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When people understand
a system, they trust it.
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So in regards to elections, I
would like to do a little bit
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of Democracy 101, Elections 101.
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Fabulous. Let's do it.
So you can walk me through.
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Let's do it.
What happens from the time
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I fill out my ballot in the mail
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and send it off to an election
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to the point it's counted in Arizona?
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Can you just walk me
through that process for me?
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Yeah. So here in Arizona,
like you mentioned,
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you've chosen the
approach that the majority
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of Arizonans choose, which
is to mail in their ballot.
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Yeah, I agree. I think
it's a great system.
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There are some people who don't
think it's a great system.
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Maybe we'll have a chance
to talk about that later.
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But once the ballot is
dropped in the mail,
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then it goes to the post office
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and our friends at our local
county elections offices will
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then go and pick up the ballot
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within that envelope
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and then bring it back to the
office, the election office.
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At the election office, the
first thing, if you recall,
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before you mail that
envelope off, you sign it.
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Sign it.
So that's the first step.
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Your signature on the outside
of that envelope is compared
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with the signature that the
recorder's office has on file.
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First and foremost would be that very...
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When you first registered to vote,
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they'll compare it against that signature.
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And if you voted at other times
by mail, they're also going
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to compare those additional signatures,
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look at that and say, "Is
this Pete's signature?" Yes,
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it looks like it is Pete's signature.
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So then if that's the case,
then we have a bipartisan group,
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so Republican and a
Democrat sitting together
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and they will open up that
envelope and produce the ballot.
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And they want to make
sure looking at that,
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making sure there aren't any
stray marks on that ballot,
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and then the ballot is
taken over for tabulation.
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So the ballot is put into
one of these tabulators that
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the election offices have.
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It runs through there
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and the results are tabulated from there.
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Now, let's say, Pete, that
you voted for candidate A
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and then said, "No, no, no, I
want to vote for candidate B,"
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and then you X out your
vote for candidate A.
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That's going to get that ballot,
very technical term here
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I'm about to use, will be spit out, okay?
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Spit out.
It will be spit out.
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Spit ballot.
That's right. Spit ballot.
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And then, again, a
bipartisan group, Republican
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and a Democrat will look
at that image together
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and say, "What was Pete's intent here?
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Did he want to vote-
Wait, he put marks on both
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of them, but do we agree?
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Oh, it looks like he wanted
to vote for candidate B."
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Once that is done, that
process has gone through,
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let's say there's one or
more races that are that way.
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Now your results have
been tabulated through
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that process in Maricopa
County if you've signed up
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for the text messages.
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Well, I have.
You have been getting
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information from the office telling you
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that they'd received your ballot
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and then actually saying that
your ballot has been counted.
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So one of the criticisms of
elections, it's like, "Well,
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it's this black box.
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We don't know what's going
on." The text service has been
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very popular way for people
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to feel like they have a better
sense of what's going on.
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And so they're not left at home going,
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"Did they ever get my
ballot? Was it counted?"
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Yeah.
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So okay, I wanted to go
back to a few things that...
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I have questions about this
because this is very interesting
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because I'm sure this
information's out there,
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but I've never looked for it,
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so it has seemed like a
bit of a black box to me.
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When you're talking about
comparing signatures,
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so you have my past, I don't know,
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five ballots from different elections.
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Are election officials, do they have a
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picture of that, that they're then
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comparing to in a database?
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Yeah, so it's on the computer.
Okay.
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So it's on the computer.
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Let's say if you voted in the
primary, they have an image
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of your July 2026 signature,
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and then they're comparing that
with the voter registration,
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your original voter
registration signature,
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and maybe your signatures in
the last three or four races.
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The folks that are doing it, it's just not
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just someone off the street.
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It's someone who has been trained
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and received some of the same type
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of training you'd receive in the FBI.
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And there are also multiple levels.
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First of all, they're just
random audits that occur.
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But secondly, if
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that level one individual is
not confident, has questions,
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then that'll get elevated
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to level two and level
three, moving up from there.
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So it's a standardized
process that has a lot
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of training involved in it,
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and it is something
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that we've been doing here in
Arizona since the early '90s.
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I'm curious about,
lack of a better term,
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physical security, like
chain of custody, right?
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You described a ballot changing a few
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different hands, right?
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Yes.
So when it's going from one place
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to another, once it arrives at the elections office,
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is it put in a vault or
something with a zip tie on it?
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Or can you describe what the custody
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is like when it changes hands?
Yeah. So the
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custody is...
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And you may have noticed, I
continued to mention throughout
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that there were multiple
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people involved, people from opposite parties
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reviewing everything.
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And so it is throughout that process
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when it is not being...
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when they're not going through the process
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of splitting the envelope
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or putting it in the tabulator,
it is in a secure location.
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And then moving forward at
the end, all of those votes,
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once they've been tabulated,
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all those ballots are in a
secure vault, for example,
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at the Maricopa County Tabulation Center,
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and they must be maintained until
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after the election
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in case there might be any challenges
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that occur in the courts.
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You described what I
would say is a fairly
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complex system, right?
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And that is universal
throughout America in the sense
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that we divide the
responsibility of elections
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among multiple offices.
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Is that complexity a feature or a bug?
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It's definitely a
feature, but it is unusual.
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In most countries, election
administration is kind
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of organized at the national level,
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but here in the United States,
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it is very much at the local level.
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That is established in
the U.S. Constitution,
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and it is something that has
been followed for the 250 years
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of this republic.
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And so it is a feature for this reason.
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First of all, I would much
rather have people who are close
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to me, who know my community,
counting these votes,
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not someone 3,000 miles away.
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Number two, in this environment
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where people are asking
questions about whether elections
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have been rigged, for an election
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to be rigged on a national
level when you have elections
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occurring at literally
thousands of jurisdictions
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around the country, at county level
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and even city level, think
about the type of conspiracy
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that would have to be created
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and the thousands of people,
both Republicans, Democrats
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and Independents who
would have to be a part
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of such a conspiracy.
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So I think especially now,
given that environment
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that we're in right now, I
would, again, underline the fact
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that I think the diffusion
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of responsibility is a
feature and not a flaw.
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One last thing I want to
ask about in our Elections 101
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section is about timelines.
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Why does counting
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or tabulation, as you put
it, sometimes take days?
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Should people interpret slow results
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as something going wrong?
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One of my favorite questions.
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This was a question I got
a lot when I served on the
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Maricopa County Board of Supervisors.
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Here's the first thing, is
this concept that Arizona,
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that it takes a long time to
count the votes in Arizona.
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It does not take particularly longer
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to count the votes than in most states,
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but it does take quite a while for the AP
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or whatever your favorite - NBC News -
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it does take them a while to call some
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of our races here in
Arizona, and that's not
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because of anything that our
elections officials have done
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wrong, it's because we have
really close elections.
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We are one of the few swing
states left in this country.
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And so the last thing that one
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of these media
organizations wants to do is
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to call a race and then be wrong
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About
It.
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Number one is that
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because of these close
races, it does take longer
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for the races to be called.
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Number two, because we do have
the mail-in voting process,
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and it is quite popular,
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and as a little footnote to that,
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not only is mail-in voting popular,
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but holding onto your
mail-in ballot until the day
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of election day and dropping
it off is very popular.
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Over 200,000 people in
Maricopa County chose to do
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that in '22 and '24.
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Because of that, because of
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that signature verification
process I just walked you
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through, that does take a while.
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And in a close race,
it could be a few days
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until those ballots are counted, not
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because anyone's doing anything wrong.
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In fact, it's just the opposite.
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It's because these elections officials are
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following the law.
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I found a national survey recently.
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It was from the Center for Transparent
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and Trusted Elections at UC San Diego.
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Good folks over there.
Oh, you know them.
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I do, yes.
60% of the respondents said
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that they're confident votes
will be counted accurately
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in the 2026 midterms this
year that are coming up.
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That figure was at 77% just
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after the 2024 election,
so it's a 17-point drop.
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And the drop spanned party lines.
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It was both Republicans and
Democrats thinking this.
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Why do you think confidence is slipping?
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I mean, it's a great question.
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How much time do we have today?
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But number one, I would
say on the Republican side,
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the reality is that you have
had essentially the leader
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of the Republican Party since
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00:13:04.760 --> 00:13:09.620
before 2020 raising
serious questions about
271
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elections, and that's
probably putting it lightly.
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00:13:12.180 --> 00:13:16.040
I mean, he had a national
address just a few
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weeks ago in which he stated
that he believed, again,
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that the 2020 election had been rigged.
275
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As a lifelong Republican,
Republicans follow their leaders.
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And so I think that's a key element,
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and I think that a lot
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of elected officials within
the Republican Party have
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followed those same talking points.
280
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So that can't help but have an impact
281
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on how Republicans view things.
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With respect to the Democratic Party,
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I'll back up a little bit on this
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and say that trust in government,
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trust in institutions has been
declining now really since
286
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the Watergate era.
287
00:13:57.640 --> 00:14:02.200
So to see a decrease
in support of elections
288
00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.420
or trust in elections is not surprising.
289
00:14:05.420 --> 00:14:09.280
I would say actually what's
more surprising is the polling
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00:14:09.280 --> 00:14:12.920
that I've seen that show high 80s to 90%
291
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of Democrats in Arizona
trust elections as opposed
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00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:21.420
to Republicans in the low 50s.
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00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:23.320
So it's still a majority of Republicans,
294
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but that shows to me this
has become a partisan issue,
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which I think is a real shame
296
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and it's something that
we're very focused on at
297
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the Mechanics of Democracy Laboratory,
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that we need everyone to come in.
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We need everyone to walk in
to have the opportunity to see
300
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how elections are done to
help rebuild that trust.
301
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:48.940
If it were a bipartisan issue,
302
00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:50.860
that would be its own
set of problems, right?
303
00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:53.240
Election denialism, trust in elections.
Absolutely.
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00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:54.760
That would be its own set of problems.
Yep.
305
00:14:54.760 --> 00:14:57.820
I almost think that it's worse
that it's a partisan issue
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00:14:57.820 --> 00:15:01.220
because it becomes so hyperpolarized.
307
00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:03.900
And here's why I think
it's particularly bad.
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The sustainability of
our election system and
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therefore our democracy is
based on people choosing
310
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to go into elections administration.
311
00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:18.879
Right.
And it has been a very quiet, important,
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00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.500
but very quiet profession that not
313
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that many people have known about.
314
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:29.220
Since 2020 now, elections
administrators have become famous
315
00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:31.740
or infamous depending
upon your circumstances.
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00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:34.000
Under a microscope.
Under a microscope.
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And so my fear is that if
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that continues over a
prolonged period of time,
319
00:15:39.380 --> 00:15:43.760
then young people will choose
not to go into elections
320
00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:48.300
or only partisans will
choose to go into elections,
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00:15:48.300 --> 00:15:51.420
which could have some real
negative ramifications as well.
322
00:15:52.260 --> 00:15:55.320
Okay. It sounds to me one
of the biggest challenges
323
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.479
that election officials
face is not necessarily
324
00:15:57.479 --> 00:15:59.180
counting votes accurately.
325
00:15:59.180 --> 00:16:01.480
It's convincing people that
they were counted accurately.
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00:16:02.420 --> 00:16:03.980
That's correct.
Or counting them
327
00:16:03.980 --> 00:16:06.220
or they're counted accurately in
328
00:16:06.220 --> 00:16:07.800
a appropriate amount of time.
329
00:16:07.800 --> 00:16:09.039
Yes, because by the way, there are
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00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:10.339
lots of audits that occur.
331
00:16:10.339 --> 00:16:13.539
I mean, here in Arizona,
by law, there's an audit,
332
00:16:13.539 --> 00:16:17.420
there's a hand count audit
of these tabulation machines.
333
00:16:17.420 --> 00:16:22.420
So I would agree with the
direction of your question
334
00:16:22.420 --> 00:16:24.500
here.
And these are existing problems.
335
00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:27.348
And I was kind of curious
to pick your brain about how
336
00:16:27.348 --> 00:16:32.120
these problems of these
perceptual problems might get
337
00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:33.820
worse in the future.
338
00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:36.860
For instance, everyone
thought 2024 was going
339
00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:40.060
to be the AI election, which
did not really pan out.
340
00:16:40.060 --> 00:16:42.720
There were a few deepfake things
341
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.820
and there were a few claims
342
00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:47.360
that crowd sizes were AI
generated or anything.
343
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.199
But for the most part, I think that the
344
00:16:50.199 --> 00:16:53.320
AI-influenced election
did not come to pass.
345
00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:54.320
Without a doubt.
346
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:56.520
Every election official gathering I went
347
00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:01.060
to in 2024 was deepfakes are
going to rock this election.
348
00:17:01.060 --> 00:17:03.860
It's going to be awful.
And then it wasn't.
349
00:17:03.860 --> 00:17:07.160
Do you think that there's a
realistic threat from AI now?
350
00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.400
Are those alarm bells ringing just as
351
00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.539
hollowly as before for you?
352
00:17:12.539 --> 00:17:16.040
Here's the deal. We have
dealt with misinformation
353
00:17:16.040 --> 00:17:18.920
and disinformation in the past few cycles.
354
00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:23.540
With AI, it's a lot easier to generate
355
00:17:23.540 --> 00:17:26.920
these type of deepfakes,
356
00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:31.680
and the chatbots are not
necessarily great at responding
357
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.640
to something that has been
generated on that day.
358
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.800
And that's why when I
was an election official,
359
00:17:37.800 --> 00:17:41.860
I would always say to folks,
"If you see something like this
360
00:17:41.860 --> 00:17:44.100
that doesn't seem right,
361
00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:46.560
that concerns you about today's election
362
00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:48.720
or the election that we're
going through right now,
363
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.260
please go to the website
364
00:17:52.260 --> 00:17:54.640
of your local election office.
365
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.040
Check that, see what they're
saying." So that's a long way
366
00:17:58.040 --> 00:18:00.420
of saying I am concerned
367
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:04.180
and not ready to declare
victory on the battle
368
00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:05.820
with deepfakes just yet.
369
00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:08.240
Well, there's also the
concept of the liar's dividend,
370
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.260
which you introduced me to, which is
371
00:18:10.260 --> 00:18:12.800
where real videos can
just be dismissed as fake.
372
00:18:14.320 --> 00:18:17.040
That seems potentially
even more dangerous than
373
00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:18.720
actual deepfakes to me.
374
00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:21.480
Can you talk a little bit about that?
375
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.000
Yeah. Yeah. So this liar's
dividend, it's a real thing.
376
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.620
Yeah.
I find myself when something's going on,
377
00:18:28.620 --> 00:18:32.580
I'm seeing a video that
seems unbelievable, my brain,
378
00:18:32.580 --> 00:18:34.000
I'm just one person, but I think there are
379
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.400
other people who feel this way.
380
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.700
My brain sort of jumps to, "Oh,
381
00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:40.160
this must be AI generated."
And then we find out sometimes,
382
00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:45.160
no, this is real. So the
liar's dividend is a possibility,
383
00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:49.280
a concern, but this is why we
384
00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:52.160
talk a lot about AI
literacy at the Mechanics
385
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.680
of Democracy Laboratory as well.
386
00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:58.620
And it's incumbent upon
our elections officials
387
00:18:58.620 --> 00:19:01.600
to learn about AI, the dangers of it,
388
00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:05.160
and how they can address
the misinformation
389
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:09.860
that can be spread so quickly
through the use of AI.
390
00:19:09.860 --> 00:19:11.660
If people see something
that doesn't seem right,
391
00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:14.420
you should go to your
election official website
392
00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:15.880
or what have you, or look
393
00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.620
to your election officials
as the source of truth.
394
00:19:19.620 --> 00:19:22.820
Your research is also finding
that Gen Z trust tends not
395
00:19:22.820 --> 00:19:23.940
to go in that direction,
396
00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:28.900
and they're looking
instead to influencers.
397
00:19:28.900 --> 00:19:31.160
And I think this is just
a difference of worldview
398
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:32.740
and lived experience, right?
399
00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:35.100
That is where information flows from
400
00:19:35.100 --> 00:19:36.460
first and foremost for them.
401
00:19:37.340 --> 00:19:40.360
So how do you think
election offices can adapt
402
00:19:40.360 --> 00:19:42.060
to this new reality?
403
00:19:42.060 --> 00:19:44.660
Yeah, this is... When I talk to
404
00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:47.680
elections officials about
this, you can kind of see
405
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.040
their eyes rolling in
the back of their heads.
406
00:19:50.040 --> 00:19:52.040
And then once they calm down, I say,
407
00:19:52.040 --> 00:19:53.202
"No, this is the reality.
408
00:19:53.202 --> 00:19:58.120
This is what the research
shows." And so you need
409
00:19:58.120 --> 00:20:01.320
to figure out, you need
to be able to identify
410
00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:04.580
who those influencers are
that you can work with.
411
00:20:04.580 --> 00:20:07.360
But it's just like we
have to develop trust
412
00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:10.140
as election officials with our voters.
413
00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:14.440
These social media influencers
need to establish with trust
414
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:15.860
with folks as well.
415
00:20:15.860 --> 00:20:20.060
And so I encourage elections
officials to identify
416
00:20:20.060 --> 00:20:21.920
who it is, go out there
417
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.260
or have the Gen Z members
on your staff go out there
418
00:20:25.260 --> 00:20:27.700
and identify those influencers
419
00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:29.620
who there seems to be a fit with.
420
00:20:29.620 --> 00:20:32.860
And then just like we started
this off with, bring them in,
421
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.480
take them on a tour, show
them this whole process,
422
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:40.220
allow them to ask all the questions
423
00:20:40.220 --> 00:20:43.940
because I do believe that,
that once people are exposed
424
00:20:43.940 --> 00:20:46.560
to the system, they're going to trust it.
425
00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:49.000
And we know that Gen Z tends
426
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.780
to trust these influencers
more than the rest of us.
427
00:20:52.780 --> 00:20:54.440
So why not have people
428
00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.980
that they trust talking about elections
429
00:20:56.980 --> 00:20:58.620
and putting the truth out there
430
00:20:58.620 --> 00:21:00.340
because we certainly know
431
00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:03.460
that there are social media influencers
432
00:21:03.460 --> 00:21:06.780
who are spreading mis- and
disinformation about elections.
433
00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:09.720
Taking those potential threats
434
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.700
with the existing public
sentiment surrounding election
435
00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:14.700
security into mind, it seems...
436
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:16.160
I don't think it's unfair
437
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.280
to say we're facing an uphill battle here.
438
00:21:19.300 --> 00:21:21.220
So let's talk about some solutions.
439
00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:23.940
You've taken pains to point
out in this interview as well
440
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:26.180
as pretty much any interview
I've seen with you, is
441
00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:27.760
that you're a lifelong Republican
442
00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:29.760
and you deliberately position MODL
443
00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:32.240
as a partisan inclusive initiative.
444
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:34.960
Yes.
Walk me through your thought process there.
445
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:36.140
Yep. So a lot
446
00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:40.240
of times people will talk about
institutions like Mechanics
447
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.220
of Democracy Laboratory as nonpartisan.
448
00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:45.140
And that's a nice term,
449
00:21:45.140 --> 00:21:48.040
but it doesn't really reflect
what we're trying to do.
450
00:21:48.040 --> 00:21:49.580
We are partisan inclusive.
451
00:21:49.580 --> 00:21:52.580
So we don't just want
people who are nonpartisan.
452
00:21:52.580 --> 00:21:55.320
We want Democrats, we want Republicans,
453
00:21:55.320 --> 00:21:58.260
we want Independents,
we want No Labels Party,
454
00:21:58.260 --> 00:22:00.180
we want Green Party members.
455
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:04.240
We need people from all
of those different parties
456
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.800
and all of those different
spots on the spectrum
457
00:22:06.800 --> 00:22:10.360
to learn more about elections so that one,
458
00:22:10.360 --> 00:22:14.340
they can communicate the facts
to members of their party,
459
00:22:14.340 --> 00:22:15.660
because that's where we're at.
460
00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:19.040
We're in a period, we're in
these little echo chambers
461
00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:22.380
where we are all listening
to others in our tribe.
462
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.320
So we want to make sure that
all these people have the facts
463
00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:27.560
that they need, but then also
464
00:22:27.560 --> 00:22:31.080
so they will ask us the questions
465
00:22:31.080 --> 00:22:34.340
that other people in
their tribe are asking.
466
00:22:34.340 --> 00:22:37.780
Because if we're only speaking
to those who are convinced
467
00:22:37.780 --> 00:22:39.980
that elections are safe and secure, it
468
00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:43.180
makes us feel good, but
what is it accomplishing?
469
00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:44.720
Yeah, you're preaching to the choir.
470
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:49.160
Yeah. So people who are
in this, as we call it,
471
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:53.952
the pro-democracy space,
tend to kind of lean left.
472
00:22:53.952 --> 00:22:57.220
That's more common.
473
00:22:57.220 --> 00:23:00.680
And so I wanted to make sure
that I was raising my voice
474
00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:04.340
as a lifelong Republican to
say, "I'm a Republican who
475
00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:07.500
believes in the system,
476
00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:10.160
but also I want to hear from folks
477
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.720
what their questions
are." And you know what?
478
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.820
They may have some really good points,
479
00:23:14.820 --> 00:23:18.420
but if they've asked the
same question a hundred times
480
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:20.648
and we've answered it a hundred times, and they're
481
00:23:20.648 --> 00:23:23.983
not doing it in good faith, they're just trying to raise
482
00:23:23.983 --> 00:23:27.782
doubts in people, that's when I have a problem with it.
483
00:23:27.782 --> 00:23:31.380
Okay. Maybe this is just like
two party system brain rot
484
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:33.280
that I've grown up around,
485
00:23:33.280 --> 00:23:37.160
but I find myself coming
back to the question, can
486
00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:40.800
an election official be nonpartisan
487
00:23:40.800 --> 00:23:42.960
or be partisan inclusive?
488
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.960
Because at the end of the day,
489
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:46.900
you are rooting for your team, right?
490
00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:49.740
If you were Democrat or a
Republican, it would be like,
491
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:54.740
"Well, no, I want my candidates
to win." So how do you as
492
00:23:55.040 --> 00:24:00.040
a election official reconcile
that in your head?
493
00:24:00.060 --> 00:24:01.060
It's a great question.
494
00:24:01.060 --> 00:24:04.480
It's because you care
more about the sanctity
495
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:05.740
of this process.
496
00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:07.980
Okay.
That's who we're looking for.
497
00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:09.840
I think if you cannot...
498
00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:13.480
If you're saying, "I'm for
this team, this is my team,
499
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.840
and I want them to win no
matter what," then you should go
500
00:24:16.840 --> 00:24:18.400
work on campaigns.
501
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.280
You shouldn't be in elections.
502
00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:23.840
But I believe that you can
have strongly held beliefs
503
00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:27.060
that maybe lead you to
always voting for one party
504
00:24:27.060 --> 00:24:29.560
or the other or somewhere in between.
505
00:24:29.560 --> 00:24:33.940
But above that, you have
a belief in the sanctity
506
00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:38.940
of the elections process,
in the value of all
507
00:24:39.080 --> 00:24:41.720
voters believing that the people
508
00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:44.020
who are actually running
the election are not going
509
00:24:44.020 --> 00:24:47.520
to put their finger on the
scale one way or the other.
510
00:24:47.520 --> 00:24:49.160
And those are the types of folks
511
00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.680
who in the end become
elections administrators.
512
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.500
What was once a, I don't
want to say a boring job,
513
00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.580
but at least like you
put it an invisible job,
514
00:24:58.580 --> 00:25:00.100
the profession's changed.
515
00:25:00.100 --> 00:25:05.100
So how are you preparing
young election administrators
516
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:06.840
or future election administrators
517
00:25:06.840 --> 00:25:08.180
to deal with those pressures?
518
00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:09.980
Because that's a hard sell.
519
00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:13.600
It is a hard sell. So I
came to ASU with a theory,
520
00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:17.060
a theory that people would want to study
521
00:25:18.140 --> 00:25:21.500
and learn to become election officials.
522
00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:23.100
Historically, people didn't do that.
523
00:25:23.100 --> 00:25:25.180
Historically, people worked at the county,
524
00:25:25.180 --> 00:25:26.500
they worked in the treasurer's
525
00:25:26.500 --> 00:25:28.860
office, and somebody said,
"Hey, can you come over here
526
00:25:28.860 --> 00:25:32.140
and give us a hand for the
elections?" And then 30 years
527
00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:34.280
later, they retire
528
00:25:34.280 --> 00:25:37.140
after having a great career
in elections administration.
529
00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:40.940
It was not something that
you grew up wanting to do.
530
00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:45.200
But ironically, because
elections administrators like me
531
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.960
and others have been in the
news for the last six years,
532
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.920
we now have students who come to ASU
533
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.480
and other universities
knowing that it's a job.
534
00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.140
And our very first graduate fellow
535
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:02.300
who's now working at Maricopa
County while she's getting her
536
00:26:02.300 --> 00:26:06.520
master's degree, she describes
it, this work as a form
537
00:26:06.520 --> 00:26:09.600
of advocacy, which is...
538
00:26:09.600 --> 00:26:12.300
I have kind of mixed emotions about that.
539
00:26:12.300 --> 00:26:13.740
I think that's wonderful that
540
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:17.080
she has chosen to be an advocate for the system,
541
00:26:17.080 --> 00:26:20.140
but also how did this invisible
542
00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:23.340
profession turn into a form of advocacy?
543
00:26:23.340 --> 00:26:26.300
Because there are people who
are trying to tear it down.
544
00:26:26.300 --> 00:26:28.640
So not only do we have students
545
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:31.000
who are interested in
going into this field,
546
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.980
I've actually found that some
of our brightest students
547
00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:36.380
are interested in going into this field.
548
00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:39.920
So to respond to your question
of how are we preparing them,
549
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:43.420
we have an election
administration fellowship program.
550
00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:46.560
So we have right now this semester,
551
00:26:46.560 --> 00:26:50.840
five undergraduate students
working in Maricopa County
552
00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:53.820
elections and in Pinal County elections.
553
00:26:53.820 --> 00:26:55.700
So they are up front,
554
00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:57.920
they're seeing this, and we talk about it.
555
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.660
We do weekly check-ins,
and I talk to them.
556
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:03.600
I say, "Guys, you're in a fishbowl
557
00:27:03.600 --> 00:27:07.540
and the battle for the
Congress could come down
558
00:27:07.540 --> 00:27:09.940
to Maricopa and Pinal County.
559
00:27:09.940 --> 00:27:11.660
The governor's race,
560
00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:15.500
the attorney general's race
could end up being very close.
561
00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:17.720
As you know, in 2022,
562
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:21.660
the attorney general's race
was divided by 280 votes
563
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:23.480
across the state of Arizona.
564
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:26.260
So we're talking about it
all the time, not trying
565
00:27:26.260 --> 00:27:27.740
to scare them off,
566
00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:29.540
but trying to help them understand
567
00:27:29.540 --> 00:27:31.960
how important this role is
568
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:33.980
and how people are looking to them
569
00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:36.183
and how when they walk in there
570
00:27:36.183 --> 00:27:40.400
as a young person who's
interested in elections, how
571
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:42.640
that inspires those people
572
00:27:43.566 --> 00:27:48.560
who maybe have been the victims
of harassment and doxing
573
00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:51.920
and are just about ready
to walk out the door
574
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:53.580
to see a young person come in
575
00:27:53.580 --> 00:27:55.640
and say, "I want to be a part of it."
576
00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:57.700
It's really something special,
577
00:27:57.700 --> 00:28:00.820
and I'm so grateful for these
students who have decided
578
00:28:00.820 --> 00:28:02.740
to come with us on this journey at MODL.
579
00:28:03.860 --> 00:28:07.280
It's interesting that the
spotlighting effect on election
580
00:28:07.280 --> 00:28:11.260
officials has self-selected
for some, I think it's fair
581
00:28:11.260 --> 00:28:14.380
to say idealists, people who
really believe in the cause,
582
00:28:14.380 --> 00:28:16.620
but I think it's also had
the inverse effect too,
583
00:28:16.620 --> 00:28:18.400
where it's attracted the attention
584
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:21.660
of some really partisan individuals who
585
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:23.040
cast aspersions on elections.
586
00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:27.360
And do you think that the
work you're doing at MODL is
587
00:28:27.360 --> 00:28:30.580
hopefully offering a
bulwark against the bad
588
00:28:30.580 --> 00:28:32.640
actors who are attracted to this?
589
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.380
Well, I can certainly hope so,
590
00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:39.600
but we need a response to
those bad actors immediately.
591
00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:43.060
Okay.
And the good thing is we have an answer to that.
592
00:28:43.060 --> 00:28:45.520
So not only did I talk
earlier about the fact
593
00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:48.400
that we have these
bipartisan teams throughout,
594
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.720
so if there are people who do...
595
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:54.260
And by the way, I think it's
a very, very small minority
596
00:28:54.260 --> 00:28:57.780
of people who are in elections
administration who do want
597
00:28:57.780 --> 00:28:59.260
to do something like that.
598
00:28:59.260 --> 00:29:02.640
But if they do, not only are
there folks from the other side
599
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:04.340
watching everything they're doing,
600
00:29:04.340 --> 00:29:05.840
but they're also live streams.
601
00:29:05.840 --> 00:29:09.200
So if you want to go on right
now and pop your popcorn
602
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.320
and watch what's going on at
the Maricopa County Tabulation
603
00:29:12.320 --> 00:29:13.760
Center, you can do that.
604
00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:16.940
Riveting stuff.
It's riveting stuff.
605
00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:20.340
And then Maricopa County,
I mean, it's remarkable
606
00:29:20.340 --> 00:29:23.320
how we have journalists
from all around the world.
607
00:29:24.980 --> 00:29:26.960
And the last thing I'll add to that is
608
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:31.280
that the 2020 election in
Maricopa County, I would argue,
609
00:29:31.280 --> 00:29:32.880
was probably the most scrutinized in
610
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.200
the history of the world.
611
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:39.200
It's up there.
So if you are someone who wants to do
612
00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:43.540
bad things and who wants to
put their finger on the scale
613
00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:46.700
of elections, Arizona is
not the place to do it.
614
00:29:46.700 --> 00:29:50.460
Yeah. And I would argue nowhere
in this country is the place
615
00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:52.720
to do it because we
already have these checks
616
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.320
and balances in place.
617
00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:56.820
If we can then add to that in MODL
618
00:29:56.820 --> 00:30:00.040
and recruit bright,
619
00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:01.920
principled people to go into elections
620
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.200
administration, that much better.
621
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.540
Okay. So Bill, looking ahead
to the upcoming election,
622
00:30:07.540 --> 00:30:10.340
what is one thing you want
every voter to understand
623
00:30:10.340 --> 00:30:11.920
before they cast their ballot?
624
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:14.441
I want every person to understand
625
00:30:14.441 --> 00:30:17.521
that our election system
is safe and secure.
626
00:30:18.381 --> 00:30:22.521
Our tabulation machines are
not connected to the internet,
627
00:30:22.521 --> 00:30:24.962
and they can feel confident
628
00:30:24.962 --> 00:30:27.642
that their vote will be tabulated.
629
00:30:27.642 --> 00:30:30.062
My last question, if people want
630
00:30:30.062 --> 00:30:34.162
to learn more about your work,
election integrity in general
631
00:30:34.162 --> 00:30:36.243
or how elections are administered,
632
00:30:36.243 --> 00:30:38.883
do you have any suggestions
for reading or watching
633
00:30:38.883 --> 00:30:40.363
or listening or what have you?
Yeah.
634
00:30:40.363 --> 00:30:45.123
So our friends at MIT,
they have the MIT Data
635
00:30:45.123 --> 00:30:48.304
and Election Science Lab, MEDSL.
636
00:30:48.304 --> 00:30:49.384
They have great work there.
637
00:30:49.384 --> 00:30:51.284
They have a new resource
638
00:30:51.284 --> 00:30:53.424
that you can check out on their website.
639
00:30:53.424 --> 00:30:55.844
And then I would also recommend people
640
00:30:55.844 --> 00:30:59.144
to check out our website at MODL.
641
00:30:59.144 --> 00:31:02.625
Not only do we have a lot
of information on some
642
00:31:02.625 --> 00:31:04.545
of the things that we've
talked about today,
643
00:31:04.545 --> 00:31:08.245
but also we go into a lot
of detail on AI in elections
644
00:31:08.245 --> 00:31:11.125
and we have an AI in election skills hub
645
00:31:11.125 --> 00:31:12.566
that they can check out.
646
00:31:12.566 --> 00:31:16.026
But better than any
reading any of those things
647
00:31:16.026 --> 00:31:18.446
or any other resources
that might be out there,
648
00:31:18.446 --> 00:31:20.666
they really want to learn
more about elections,
649
00:31:21.706 --> 00:31:24.327
work the polls in November.
650
00:31:24.327 --> 00:31:28.067
If they have time, do it.
It's a great experience.
651
00:31:28.067 --> 00:31:30.467
There's nothing like doing
it. They actually make money.
652
00:31:30.467 --> 00:31:32.907
People say volunteer at the polls.
653
00:31:32.907 --> 00:31:35.227
They pay people at Maricopa County.
654
00:31:35.227 --> 00:31:36.808
And it's a great experience.
655
00:31:36.808 --> 00:31:39.148
Get to work with other people
656
00:31:40.048 --> 00:31:43.768
who live here in Maricopa
County, make a few bucks
657
00:31:43.768 --> 00:31:45.248
and learn more about our system
658
00:31:45.248 --> 00:31:46.828
and ask all those questions
659
00:31:46.828 --> 00:31:48.509
that you've always wanted to ask.
660
00:31:48.509 --> 00:31:49.849
That is one of the best calls
661
00:31:49.849 --> 00:31:51.509
to action I've heard on this show.
662
00:31:51.509 --> 00:31:52.809
I was on the edge of my seat. I'm like,
663
00:31:52.809 --> 00:31:54.809
where's this going? Work the polls.
664
00:31:54.809 --> 00:31:56.689
I love that. Okay, fantastic.
665
00:31:56.689 --> 00:31:58.589
Bill, thank you so much
for coming on the show.
666
00:31:58.589 --> 00:32:01.230
Thank you, Pete.
If people didn't come away
667
00:32:01.230 --> 00:32:02.510
trusting elections more.
668
00:32:02.510 --> 00:32:05.370
I at least hope they come
away understanding them.
669
00:32:05.370 --> 00:32:07.530
And I really appreciate
all the work you do
670
00:32:07.530 --> 00:32:09.010
and thank you so much for being here.
671
00:32:09.010 --> 00:32:09.843
Thanks for having me.
672
00:32:13.991 --> 00:32:16.871
Thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed the show,
673
00:32:16.871 --> 00:32:19.791
please leave us a five-star
review on the podcast app
674
00:32:19.791 --> 00:32:21.191
of your choice.
675
00:32:21.191 --> 00:32:23.732
If you're watching us
on YouTube, please like
676
00:32:23.732 --> 00:32:26.772
and subscribe and leave us a comment.
677
00:32:26.772 --> 00:32:30.472
We love your comments, especially
when they make fun of me.
678
00:32:30.472 --> 00:32:33.452
Lab Coat Optional is a production
of the Strategic Marketing
679
00:32:33.452 --> 00:32:36.553
and Communications team
at Knowledge Enterprise at
680
00:32:36.553 --> 00:32:38.533
Arizona State University.
681
00:32:38.533 --> 00:32:39.653
Knowledge Enterprise is led
682
00:32:39.653 --> 00:32:41.933
by Executive Vice President Sally C.
683
00:32:41.933 --> 00:32:45.753
Morton, ASU's chief research
and innovation officer.
684
00:32:45.753 --> 00:32:48.814
Remember, lab coats are
optional on this show.
685
00:32:48.814 --> 00:32:52.294
We want our researchers
to stay safe in the lab.
686
00:32:52.294 --> 00:32:56.394
So wear your PPE. Until
next time, stay curious.