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[SPEAKER_02]: Do a little bit of a mindset shift, so instead of thinking about what are we selling, I want you to think about why customers are buying.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That small shift will allow you to unlock the reasons why customers should be interacting with you as a brand and what problems that you can be solving for them be that some kind of skin concern or your alleviating a little bit of guilt because they want to be fashion forward but are worried about the environment just really zeroing in on the way that your
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[SPEAKER_02]: interesting content that you can send and just being really certain about what those reasons are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this e-commerce marketing focused podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with our format, we release five episodes mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It could be channels like email or SEO or Facebook ads, or a big topic like acquisition, retention or analytics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I get to interview a different expert to explore the latest device on making that marketing method work for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then after each five episodes, many series we take a week off to give you time to take action on what you've learned.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the moment we're picking up the email marketing thread again.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in this episode, we're kicking things off with a challenge I know anyone who's responsible for email marketing has faced at some point or another,
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[SPEAKER_01]: What an earth do we say?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How are we going to do this when we run out of ideas?
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is particularly relevant for you if you have a small number of skews, a small number of products, but it's going to be equally relevant if you are big skew businesses too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My guess will be taking us essentially through how to go about creating the right newsletter promotional calendar, what content to create.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How to work out what content to create, how to work at how much of each type of content to create, how that fits with your flows.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She'll also be sharing some really great insight on how many emails you should be sending a week.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, make sure you listen right to the end of the episode so you can hear all of that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But also, so you get to hear her answers to our quick fight inside a tips round that I think you're going to find really useful too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with Emo Marketing Specialist Kate Hammond.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate has been delivering CRM strategies in global markets since 2009.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Specializing in D.C. growth mainly on Clavio and Ametria, via her agency, some be marketing, she helps brands like Rani and Co, Noble Panicilla and Sira to build out their Emo Marketing at driving loyalty and retention Hello Kate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Chloe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Very cool to have you here on the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being up for sharing your insights with us all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into the world of email marketing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of stumbled upon it by accident.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I came into the world straight after university.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I earned my stripes at a kind of mini agency, which was the media wing of a bigger company, where we were dealing with these big kind of
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[SPEAKER_02]: tech companies and I was sending out the email marketing campaigns for them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I learned a lot when I was there because we were really scrappy, really kind of sales-led and data-led, which was great for me as an instruction to the space.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And from there, I went into in-house, D to C, B to C companies.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I started off in Rosetta Stone, leading the emergency around there for a couple of years, and then spent around a decade in startups.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, through the law of course, thread, and then I decided it was time to go self-employed and started working as a fractional serum.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You've worked at so many fascinating businesses, not just in terms of their products, but in terms of their business models, you know, you've had marketplaces, courses,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm probably been in some of your flows thanks to the love crochet website so it's a you've had some some seriously wide experience In all kinds of different kind of like vertical sectors business models and everything else.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you find having all of that in the mixing pot makes it easier to help individual brands work at what they should be doing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I do because I think working at startups for a massive chunk of my career has forced me to be both on a really hands-on level and getting stuck into the data, stuck into the technical issues and troubleshooting and things like that and understanding.
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[SPEAKER_02]: on the ground floor level, like what it takes to have a really strong CRM and a really strong email marketing, strategy and a really robust customer database.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's allowed me also to zoom out so that I can do all of the strategic stuff, look at the bigger picture, weave in the different channels and elements of CRM and retention.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, I think it's been really interesting because I've spent that massive chunk of my career in businesses that I've been dealing with,
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[SPEAKER_02]: tens of thousands of skis, sometimes over 100,000 skis, and then since working in a fractional capacity, I've worked with all different businesses and a lot of them have these smaller curated ranges of products.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it presents, like, a really interesting challenge for me, but one that's, you know, you have to just really think creatively.
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[SPEAKER_02]: about that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's having my experience working actually employed by brands was massive skew sets.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not the 100,000 level, but certainly the 100, 200, 300 kind of level skew sets.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And whenever you've got stuck for something to, you just take a take a look at the best sellers list or the watch categories before me well and you just talk about a different product when you
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[SPEAKER_01]: which is not necessarily the right approach.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think we may be about five now today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But when you've only got two skews, three skews.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And there is so much less to talk about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's, it's certainly throughout my 20 plus years dealing with email marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How to be interesting is a perennial problem, both in terms of what you've actually got in front of you, but also in terms of, you know, that big white blank promo calendar.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to create a welcome campaign, watch, we put in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think you can look at all the blue prints you like, but it's not necessarily about copying someone else.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So let me turn my ramble into a question for you, Kate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Where do you start when you're not when you're in that place of going, what an earth are we going to talk about?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do you how do you tackle that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to focus on news letters primarily in this, but I'd also really like to touch on flows.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is your automated campaigns.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that will be triggered by either a custom action or a milestone that they've hit or you've set as a brand.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what these campaigns do is be really relevant, really timely and really personalized.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and they're much more effective than your broader brush news letters, which still have their place and they're still really important.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But recent research has proven that they drive eight times more revenue than campaigns do, that research was done by Clavio.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So they're super super effective and we just can't speak about one without the other.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I would spend a lot of time
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[SPEAKER_02]: and then think about putting some more time aside to think about your news that is, but your most active and recent customers should be receiving your flows and they'll naturally be more relevant to them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose that's kind of one of the things is if our flows are good, well-built, tic-setters, talking about the right things, then that's almost the money-making part dealt with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because when someone's in the mindset, it will have been picked up by a trigger and they'll be getting those more transactional messages, which gives us more freedom to be more interesting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose with the newsletters, is that a fair way to think about it, or if I miss a new answer?
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, not at all.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's really fair.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think people are starting to realise that email marketing is also a form of brand awareness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a way to remain relevant.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's a way to be top of mind for your customers even if they're outside of typical purchasing cycles.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I would completely agree with that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They have their place and they have their purpose.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So let's assume we've got good flows in place.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we improve that newsletter calendar?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the first piece of advice I'd love to give is I would urge the brand to do a little bit of a mindset shift.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So instead of thinking about what are we selling, I want you to think about why customers are buying.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that small shift will allow you to kind of unlock the reasons why customers should be interacting with you as a brand and what problems that you can be solving
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[SPEAKER_02]: some kind of skin concern or your alleviating a little bit of guilt because they want to be fashion forward but a worried about the environment just really zeroing in on the way that your brand is solving a customs bubble of all help kind of unlock interesting content that you can send and just being really certain about what those reasons are.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That would be the first thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Got you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So rather than going, we're going to do dresses, then short, then denim, then shoes, then accessories.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking actually what we're going to do is we're going to do wedding season.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Mother of the bride deep dive.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's too hot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And cycle through those reasons for wanting to buy rather than we've got dresses.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've got dresses.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think a little bit of both, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I'll go into the kind of like broad buckets of how I would start ideating a newsletter calendar, but I think you can be both.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think what my advice would be is to let those reasons ultimately underpin.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what you are doing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you do want something that's category-based, start thinking you can think again like, okay, they do want to dress and it might be because they have an event.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let that be threaded in through your copy and your imagery and your subject lines.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think a little bit of those for sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're completely right that most brands are just doing the category and product focus stuff, the what we sell stuff and they're not flipping around to the why, why, why, why, dare I ask any advice on how to find out what the why is if anyone's going, I've no idea why they buy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, it's a really good question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So my top advice for that would be just to speak to your customers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I would always urge brands to regularly send surveys out to their customers and also a step further than that to get people on the phone or get people onto a video call.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You will be so pleasantly surprised of how many people are generous with their time and generous with their thoughts.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I would always recommend just speaking to them
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's talk then about different categories of users that you said different buckets is how you think about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, so if I was going to approach a brand newsletter to calendar and start ideaating on that, there are these yeah board kind of categories or buckets that I would put emails in and this is how you keep things fresh when you don't necessarily have a new product.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, first kind of bucket would be educational, so that would be something like how to use how to style.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you're a skin care brand, it's an ingredient highlight or a material spotlight, for example, you know, why this linen is special or why linen can be great in this summer months.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's also a moment in time and it's very seasonal.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, that kind of how to and what you can offer outside of the transaction always really key.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Another bucket I would lean into heavily is editorial and trend-led, so you can look at things like your brand story here, it's a little bit softer on the cell, broader trends in fashion and in life, discovery of new categories, or anything if you're a founder-led brand, a founder-favorites is also really interesting one because we have seen
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[SPEAKER_02]: a big uptick in these founder-led brands and customers really connecting with the storing the people behind it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that I would also recommend to adjacent to that is of course season also.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening now is it winter is it summer is it spring?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Products spotlights work really well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have five skews and one of those is a day moisturizer really zering into what makes that special.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can use
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[SPEAKER_02]: the problems that it's targeting for the individual, so they fill the connection there and any reviews and usually see it's always working really well so you can both kind of like zoom out and zero into the things just to kind of refresh and repackage.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then with the categories that we spoke about, so you can go up or down, it could be as granular as, you know, linen mini dresses or it could be as borders kind of dresses as a whole so you can play around with these things
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[SPEAKER_02]: themes also good so like what ties the products together so there's some kind of running thread through so say again if you've got five skews and their all necklaces do three of them feature a specific stone and can you talk about the meaning behind that and why these things work together or what the actual differences between them are.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, commercial.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we're looking at bestsellers, sales, give-or-purchase, top-rated, new-in, all-of-face things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, we realise that not all brands have a constant stream of new-in, but any kind of drops that they do have, I would definitely be focusing on emails and how we can kind of preview and tease and really make the most of that in those kind of comms channels.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I always find that when it comes to confidence, I don't only need what I need to post, I don't know what I need to post it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The actual solution always comes, just as you've outlined and kind of like getting granular with it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are the actual types and then rather than just going, what can we say go, what can we say this educational, what can we say that seasonal, what can we say that's all of this?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can see that when someone's worked through all those buckets and done that better customer research, they're going to have like too many ideas at the
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do you structure this?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've all heard they like, you know, was it jab jab or whatever it was?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That was the title of that book, you know, like send three normal messages on one really salesy message.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How is there an obvious ratio to go with these?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Does it depend on the brand?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on, you know, the sales, you know, if you go back to my category obsession, which appears to be in this podcast today, you know, if you're, if only,
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[SPEAKER_01]: 5% if your sales are earrings, they're not going to make up 50% of your email sends.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you go about working out the mix before we even get to scheduling it week to week day today?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really good question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I always try to showcase kind of all areas of the catalog, even if we know that certain categories perform less than others.
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[SPEAKER_02]: maybe reuniting attention for someone who's always spent time in your jeans category and didn't actually really understand that you had belts.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I would not shy away from testing and experimenting because it's the only way we can learn what's going to really resonate with the audience because
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[SPEAKER_02]: sales data is fine, but so much of these things are actually emotional.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we can't we can't measure it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We have to to see how it goes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, you know, you need to really think about the seasonal category.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So like far this day, when we're doing these things are only going to happen in June.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to be aware of that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and then I think it's about looking at what's sold in the past, but also what are people searching for on site.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So when I worked at Trudeau, obviously we're talking multi-skis, many, many, many, many, many skis, but I would often shape some of the email content based on not necessarily what people are buying, but what people were searching for and understanding there are trends within those terms.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So look around and see what's working for other channels
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I wouldn't necessarily say there's an obvious logical way of doing things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would say apart from things that are happening now on a season old, you need to just test and it's very and find out what works well with your audience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we're not going to start off when we've got this big list of ideas going right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to work through all the editorial and trends ideas over the next few months now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do one than another than another and start getting some idea of what our audience
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Also, yes, like what you've said there, I would just mix it up.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You could do one editorial, one product focus, one UGC.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, just again, it's about keeping it fresh.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you did constant product spotlights, it would just stop resonating and you might see some fatigue.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's part of the freshness, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Looking at a different way of merchandising what you have in front of you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other, you know, one of the biggest most annoying questions in email
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[SPEAKER_01]: I should know the biggest most annoying question in email marketing is which day should I send my emails on?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going there, everyone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know the answer and there isn't one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the second most annoying question in email marketing is how many times should I be sending my newsletter?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Which of course, in the context what we're talking about here is hugely important because it's how many ideas do we actually get to deploy?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we're a fort, you know one email or fortnight, we're only going to get through 24 in a year.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we're sending one, you know, five a week, so then we've got an awful lot more we can do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you kind of get a good angle on that before you know how much you can send?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to look at that in a couple of ways.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So firstly, I'm going to think about it from a customer perspective.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, understanding the perfect,
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[SPEAKER_02]: cadence of newsletters.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would be looking at how people are responding to them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So keep sending to people as long as they're engaging with you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Open's clicking going through to your website.
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[SPEAKER_02]: As long as people are doing that, feel free to keep sending to them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But also look at the other metrics.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So how many unsubscribe you driving, how many
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[SPEAKER_02]: kind of customers are you churning by sending a higher volume?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is it worth it in the long run?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've worked with the brand recently and we found essentially that people who are subscribed to email had a 67% bigger chance of repurchasing them people who weren't subscribed to the email so it's really important to nurture your list.
19:00.125 --> 19:03.690
[SPEAKER_02]: So, look at those signals that people are sending if they're still engaging with you.
19:03.710 --> 19:04.230
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fine.
19:04.811 --> 19:07.935
[SPEAKER_02]: The other way I'm going to look at it is team and in-house.
19:08.115 --> 19:14.062
[SPEAKER_02]: So, to send what emails, you would to send what emails of a certain quality and what you really want to represent your brand.
19:14.082 --> 19:17.407
[SPEAKER_02]: You also have to think about the people and the teams who are going to be creating them.
19:17.907 --> 19:41.888
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are things that you can do, you can template certain layouts and if something works for you, then definitely be creative in how you can repurpose and reuse that layout and that framing, but I would also look at getting a read on what's working with your audience and then sending out the ones that are working the best and building up from there because you're not always going to have the resource on your team to send five emails a week, nor should you need to.
19:42.668 --> 20:02.882
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say it's all about testing, learning, understanding of people engaging with you, but looking at the bigger picture and looking at things like your monthly unsubscribes, how many people are coming onto the base and how quickly they're leaving, and things like that as well as really being ruthless in your prioritization within your team so that you're sending out the ones that you know are working the best.
20:02.982 --> 20:09.727
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't, yes, so that everyone can have time to execute them to a high standard and also understand and analyse how they went.
20:10.408 --> 20:15.274
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you bring in the team capacity into that, because then it's so often gets forgotten.
20:15.815 --> 20:26.430
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, oh, an email is an email is an email, no, an email is a good email when we've had the time to research it, create it well, deploy it and learn from it.
20:27.030 --> 20:32.711
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like if you, you know, your team's currently failing to do that on two sends a week.
20:32.971 --> 20:34.171
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't take them up to five.
20:34.912 --> 20:37.952
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to find a way to enable them to get the lessons from it so they can improve.
20:37.992 --> 20:41.553
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, you're just creating content for the sake of content, which is absolutely.
20:42.053 --> 20:42.853
[UNKNOWN]: Not a good idea.
20:43.673 --> 20:52.635
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, anything we've missed there that the audience needs to know of we covered everything that they should know about when we're talking about how to be interesting when you have nothing to share.
20:53.583 --> 20:54.844
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we've covered a lot of it.
20:55.185 --> 21:00.951
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just say that as always, like email doesn't live in a silo, it's not an island.
21:01.071 --> 21:14.765
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you're thinking about your email marketing as a whole, please take into consideration the other channels that people could possibly be engaging with your SMS, your WhatsApp, your unboxing experience, your direct mail because email is just one part of it.
21:15.165 --> 21:32.745
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think we covered everything in terms of how to keep it interesting and keep it fresh and it really just comes down to thinking about why your customer should be engaged with you and what are buying from you and thinking about all those different ways that you can repackage and repurpose the things that you have because there will be lots of interesting ways that you can frame it.
21:33.485 --> 21:33.946
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
21:34.006 --> 21:34.687
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Kate.
21:34.707 --> 21:37.091
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been great picking your brains about all of this.
21:37.531 --> 21:47.906
[SPEAKER_01]: Listers remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Kate's insider tips on email marketing and my suggestions for more free resources to help you improve things even further in your businesses.
21:50.188 --> 21:54.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kate, so far we've gone deep into how to be interesting when you have nothing to share.
21:54.990 --> 21:58.911
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to hours with your insider knowledge about the whole of email marketing.
21:58.951 --> 22:06.514
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, you're on to be anything to do with email marketing, which of course does include everything we've already been talking about.
22:06.594 --> 22:08.254
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate, are you ready for the insider tips?
22:08.935 --> 22:09.255
[SPEAKER_01]: Ready.
22:09.875 --> 22:11.396
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, let's start with new be advice.
22:11.856 --> 22:17.758
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
22:18.802 --> 22:25.110
[SPEAKER_02]: So for this, I would just underpin everything with the knowledge that your customers are human.
22:25.731 --> 22:32.799
[SPEAKER_02]: So at the end of every email, every screen, every ad is a person and that person is forming their own unique opinions about the brand.
22:33.400 --> 22:37.785
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we all know, a reputation takes a long time to build and a short time to destroy.
22:38.326 --> 22:58.094
[SPEAKER_02]: So let that knowledge guide you when you're making decisions around what you shouldn't be doing and the numbers that you see on a page are a person walking around and they have a certain opinion of you and you can very easily make that really positive or make it negative and once it's become negative, it's really hard to get it back.
22:58.754 --> 23:03.357
[SPEAKER_02]: and on the flip side, as I mentioned earlier, the fact that they are humans means that they really want to be heard.
23:03.477 --> 23:10.100
[SPEAKER_02]: So use that to your advantage and speak regularly to them and let those stories really guide your customer journeys.
23:10.820 --> 23:13.522
[SPEAKER_01]: Now once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
23:13.562 --> 23:15.743
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favourite way to improve performance?
23:16.564 --> 23:21.646
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to say it's gotta be testing and iterating.
23:22.086 --> 23:25.468
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to work in a business where my manager who's opinion
23:27.730 --> 23:40.417
[SPEAKER_02]: had some advice where he would always say to me like don't tinker, so take the big swings because the big swings are the ways that work and it really learns something quickly and they're the ways that you're going to change things for the better and you're going to learn the lessons.
23:40.898 --> 23:52.005
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me I would always say test and iterate and do that by not incurring and taking big swings and also for team leads to give their teams the space and the permission to do that.
23:52.545 --> 24:01.979
[SPEAKER_02]: So not everything needs to be a button color change as an AB test, but do something bigger, and you will see a bigger result, especially if you're a small team and you're a small band, like just do it, take the big swings.
24:02.448 --> 24:03.149
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
24:03.729 --> 24:06.010
[SPEAKER_01]: Take the big, big swings and stop tinkering.
24:06.251 --> 24:06.751
[SPEAKER_01]: Brilliant.
24:07.051 --> 24:10.293
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely need that written up written somewhere in my site line.
24:11.054 --> 24:15.236
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone listening wants to learn more, is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?
24:15.897 --> 24:17.778
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to plug my own soft stack here.
24:17.818 --> 24:20.100
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wrote a write a soft stack called kept.
24:20.240 --> 24:23.122
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kept by Kate.substacked.com.
24:23.562 --> 24:24.663
[SPEAKER_02]: So please join me on next.
24:24.723 --> 24:27.965
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk about email loyalty, retention, all of that good stuff.
24:28.325 --> 24:33.727
[SPEAKER_02]: And outside of that, I truly believe that podcast are some of the greatest free resources that they have.
24:33.747 --> 24:47.513
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, shout out to keep optimizing, but I'd also love to recommend building brand advocacy, which is an amazing podcast with some brilliant guests, so founders and kind of heads of brand heads of marketing, who are so generous in their tips and stories.
24:47.593 --> 24:49.053
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just very, very inspirational.
24:49.573 --> 24:53.695
[SPEAKER_02]: And then on a personal development level, I absolutely love working hard by Grace Beverly.
24:53.795 --> 24:55.436
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she does a brilliant job of,
24:56.276 --> 25:00.981
[SPEAKER_02]: giving career and business advice and again, using a really rounded panel of guests.
25:01.061 --> 25:02.663
[SPEAKER_02]: So, big shout out to those.
25:03.203 --> 25:03.924
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, love those.
25:03.964 --> 25:06.467
[SPEAKER_01]: Two juicy podcasts for you all to go and have a listen to.
25:06.927 --> 25:08.569
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much for those, Kate.
25:09.010 --> 25:10.731
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, finally, it's crystal ball time.
25:10.831 --> 25:14.455
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for?
25:15.276 --> 25:20.779
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to do something that's kind of email marketing adjacent and just dip my toe into loyalty very slightly here.
25:21.559 --> 25:27.222
[SPEAKER_02]: But one of the things that I'm seeing and also hearing about is the idea of experiential loyalty.
25:27.783 --> 25:33.346
[SPEAKER_02]: So what that means is customers are becoming a little bit fatigued when it comes to discounts and
25:33.886 --> 25:41.076
[SPEAKER_02]: money off and really how they want to be rewarded and shown appreciation is to create an experience and something that money can't buy.
25:41.557 --> 25:45.402
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's how you're going to get the connection between the brand and the consumer.
25:45.823 --> 25:50.589
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what I believe that smart retention focus brand will be focusing on in the upcoming years.
25:51.270 --> 26:02.941
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're so absolutely spot on and as we move into kind of a not post AI world, but what really matters world and that human experience or connection is all so I love that.
26:04.242 --> 26:06.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate, we're very near the end of the show though.
26:06.244 --> 26:10.408
[SPEAKER_01]: So could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and your business?
26:10.988 --> 26:13.210
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, you can find me over on LinkedIn.
26:13.250 --> 26:13.971
[SPEAKER_02]: It's Kate Hammond.
26:14.792 --> 26:31.006
[SPEAKER_02]: You can visit my website, which is www.sundim.marketing, or please join me on sub-stack and subscribe at www.keptbykate.substack.com, as I said, be talking about email, CRM, loyalty, and all that good stuff.
26:31.046 --> 26:32.047
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd love to see you there.
26:32.607 --> 26:32.887
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
26:32.907 --> 26:38.311
[SPEAKER_01]: So go get signed up to that sub stack and we'll make sure there's links to all of that in the show notes on the website for you Kate.
26:38.951 --> 26:40.672
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
26:40.692 --> 26:45.716
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been an awesome way to kick off our latest series on email marketing.
26:45.736 --> 26:46.916
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for being here.
26:47.437 --> 26:49.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you so much for having me with pleasure.
26:51.566 --> 26:56.989
[SPEAKER_01]: great insight there from K on how to kind of get past that mental block of what should we be talking about.
26:57.009 --> 27:01.931
[SPEAKER_01]: But also deeply into what should you be talking about to drive their performance?
27:02.471 --> 27:09.834
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the first point she made was that you need your flows in place to do the heavy lifting to drive those sales based on customer actions.
27:10.635 --> 27:15.697
[SPEAKER_01]: And then your newsletter, you get them and have more freedom with what you put in that which enables you to do the real
27:20.079 --> 27:25.145
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we talked about those buckets that she was talking about all those those different types.
27:25.185 --> 27:27.447
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't just think an email about our products.
27:27.527 --> 27:29.589
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about are we talking about seasons?
27:29.609 --> 27:31.151
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we going deep on a product?
27:31.371 --> 27:32.813
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking about events?
27:32.953 --> 27:34.755
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking about editorial content?
27:34.775 --> 27:35.956
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it founder story content?
27:35.996 --> 27:37.017
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of all those buckets.
27:37.037 --> 27:38.739
[SPEAKER_01]: Now they'll probably be different for your business.
27:39.560 --> 27:45.787
[SPEAKER_01]: But work out what they are for your business and then think about what content you can be sending about each of those.
27:46.228 --> 27:55.738
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously to help you, you need to switch from that what we sell into why they buy mindset to create the really valuable content that's really going to drive long term results.
27:56.739 --> 28:14.899
[SPEAKER_01]: and then work and optimise to see what the right quantity of emails to get the quality and the analysis and the ongoing optimization is for your team and what your customers also respond to then slot in those and test optimise see what works in those buckets of what works and those email content ideas.
28:15.760 --> 28:21.766
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get the links to all those things we discussed, the full transcript of the episode, the notes and more at keepoptimizing.com.
28:22.206 --> 28:38.462
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our special direct episode short links that's keepopt.com for us the number of this episode which will take you straight to the right page of the website and when you get there please do add yourself to my email list so you don't miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.
28:39.042 --> 28:42.945
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast.
28:43.345 --> 28:47.748
[SPEAKER_01]: You've enjoyed this one and want to continue learning about email marketing right now.
28:48.749 --> 28:54.774
[SPEAKER_01]: Then none of the rest of this series is yet oh yeah available to you but you can pick up our thread from the last time we covered it.
28:54.854 --> 29:02.499
[SPEAKER_01]: So scroll back up your feet to episodes 254 to 258 which is the last time we went deep into email marketing.
29:03.020 --> 29:03.800
[SPEAKER_01]: We covered several
29:07.923 --> 29:13.004
[SPEAKER_01]: Pop-ups, welcome campaigns, customer retention and SMS, so lots there to get into.
29:13.624 --> 29:19.986
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find our full thread of email marketing content via the shortlinkkeepop.com forward-slash email.
29:20.746 --> 29:31.289
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, please do tell your fellow marketers about the Keep Optimizing podcast because we create it to help as many of you as possible to improve the performance of your e-commerce marketing.
29:31.729 --> 29:35.990
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode so I can help you to keep
29:40.472 --> 29:46.597
[SPEAKER_00]: Access everything, keep optimizing, at keepoptimizing.com, that's with a mess, not a z.
00:00.531 --> 00:06.933
[SPEAKER_02]: Do a little bit of a mindset shift, so instead of thinking about what are we selling, I want you to think about why customers are buying.
00:07.133 --> 00:25.600
[SPEAKER_02]: That small shift will allow you to unlock the reasons why customers should be interacting with you as a brand and what problems that you can be solving for them be that some kind of skin concern or your alleviating a little bit of guilt because they want to be fashion forward but are worried about the environment just really zeroing in on the way that your
00:29.061 --> 00:33.207
[SPEAKER_02]: interesting content that you can send and just being really certain about what those reasons are.
00:45.653 --> 00:46.994
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
00:47.114 --> 00:51.397
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this e-commerce marketing focused podcast.
00:51.837 --> 00:58.802
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with our format, we release five episodes mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
00:59.403 --> 01:06.988
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be channels like email or SEO or Facebook ads, or a big topic like acquisition, retention or analytics.
01:07.548 --> 01:16.611
[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I get to interview a different expert to explore the latest device on making that marketing method work for you.
01:17.031 --> 01:23.233
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after each five episodes, many series we take a week off to give you time to take action on what you've learned.
01:23.893 --> 01:26.774
[SPEAKER_01]: And the moment we're picking up the email marketing thread again.
01:27.314 --> 01:35.116
[SPEAKER_01]: So in this episode, we're kicking things off with a challenge I know anyone who's responsible for email marketing has faced at some point or another,
01:35.656 --> 01:36.997
[SPEAKER_01]: What an earth do we say?
01:37.017 --> 01:41.021
[SPEAKER_01]: How are we going to do this when we run out of ideas?
01:42.002 --> 01:51.810
[SPEAKER_01]: This is particularly relevant for you if you have a small number of skews, a small number of products, but it's going to be equally relevant if you are big skew businesses too.
01:52.331 --> 01:59.217
[SPEAKER_01]: My guess will be taking us essentially through how to go about creating the right newsletter promotional calendar, what content to create.
02:00.257 --> 02:06.261
[SPEAKER_01]: How to work out what content to create, how to work at how much of each type of content to create, how that fits with your flows.
02:07.002 --> 02:12.525
[SPEAKER_01]: She'll also be sharing some really great insight on how many emails you should be sending a week.
02:13.145 --> 02:16.628
[SPEAKER_01]: So, make sure you listen right to the end of the episode so you can hear all of that.
02:16.728 --> 02:23.692
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, so you get to hear her answers to our quick fight inside a tips round that I think you're going to find really useful too.
02:26.066 --> 02:29.927
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with Emo Marketing Specialist Kate Hammond.
02:30.067 --> 02:34.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate has been delivering CRM strategies in global markets since 2009.
02:35.448 --> 02:51.232
[SPEAKER_01]: Specializing in D.C. growth mainly on Clavio and Ametria, via her agency, some be marketing, she helps brands like Rani and Co, Noble Panicilla and Sira to build out their Emo Marketing at driving loyalty and retention Hello Kate.
02:51.752 --> 02:52.752
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Chloe.
02:53.132 --> 02:55.333
[SPEAKER_01]: Very cool to have you here on the podcast.
02:55.353 --> 02:58.554
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being up for sharing your insights with us all.
02:58.974 --> 03:01.235
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into the world of email marketing?
03:02.195 --> 03:04.396
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of stumbled upon it by accident.
03:04.576 --> 03:08.037
[SPEAKER_02]: I came into the world straight after university.
03:08.137 --> 03:17.180
[SPEAKER_02]: So I earned my stripes at a kind of mini agency, which was the media wing of a bigger company, where we were dealing with these big kind of
03:17.500 --> 03:20.785
[SPEAKER_02]: tech companies and I was sending out the email marketing campaigns for them.
03:21.506 --> 03:31.641
[SPEAKER_02]: So I learned a lot when I was there because we were really scrappy, really kind of sales-led and data-led, which was great for me as an instruction to the space.
03:32.402 --> 03:37.663
[SPEAKER_02]: And from there, I went into in-house, D to C, B to C companies.
03:37.803 --> 03:46.105
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started off in Rosetta Stone, leading the emergency around there for a couple of years, and then spent around a decade in startups.
03:46.265 --> 03:56.967
[SPEAKER_02]: So, through the law of course, thread, and then I decided it was time to go self-employed and started working as a fractional serum.
03:57.627 --> 04:07.311
[SPEAKER_01]: You've worked at so many fascinating businesses, not just in terms of their products, but in terms of their business models, you know, you've had marketplaces, courses,
04:13.473 --> 04:28.244
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm probably been in some of your flows thanks to the love crochet website so it's a you've had some some seriously wide experience In all kinds of different kind of like vertical sectors business models and everything else.
04:28.264 --> 04:35.310
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you find having all of that in the mixing pot makes it easier to help individual brands work at what they should be doing.
04:36.017 --> 04:51.174
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I do because I think working at startups for a massive chunk of my career has forced me to be both on a really hands-on level and getting stuck into the data, stuck into the technical issues and troubleshooting and things like that and understanding.
04:51.815 --> 05:00.460
[SPEAKER_02]: on the ground floor level, like what it takes to have a really strong CRM and a really strong email marketing, strategy and a really robust customer database.
05:00.560 --> 05:09.565
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's allowed me also to zoom out so that I can do all of the strategic stuff, look at the bigger picture, weave in the different channels and elements of CRM and retention.
05:09.925 --> 05:17.350
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, I think it's been really interesting because I've spent that massive chunk of my career in businesses that I've been dealing with,
05:18.210 --> 05:29.582
[SPEAKER_02]: tens of thousands of skis, sometimes over 100,000 skis, and then since working in a fractional capacity, I've worked with all different businesses and a lot of them have these smaller curated ranges of products.
05:29.943 --> 05:36.169
[SPEAKER_02]: So it presents, like, a really interesting challenge for me, but one that's, you know, you have to just really think creatively.
05:37.030 --> 05:37.450
[SPEAKER_02]: about that.
05:37.811 --> 05:45.395
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's having my experience working actually employed by brands was massive skew sets.
05:46.115 --> 05:51.938
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not the 100,000 level, but certainly the 100, 200, 300 kind of level skew sets.
05:52.599 --> 06:01.163
[SPEAKER_01]: And whenever you've got stuck for something to, you just take a take a look at the best sellers list or the watch categories before me well and you just talk about a different product when you
06:04.165 --> 06:06.311
[SPEAKER_01]: which is not necessarily the right approach.
06:06.351 --> 06:08.817
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we may be about five now today.
06:09.318 --> 06:12.246
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you've only got two skews, three skews.
06:13.757 --> 06:16.220
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is so much less to talk about.
06:16.260 --> 06:21.505
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's, it's certainly throughout my 20 plus years dealing with email marketing.
06:22.026 --> 06:31.896
[SPEAKER_01]: How to be interesting is a perennial problem, both in terms of what you've actually got in front of you, but also in terms of, you know, that big white blank promo calendar.
06:32.697 --> 06:33.938
[SPEAKER_01]: And the, absolutely.
06:33.978 --> 06:36.080
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to create a welcome campaign, watch, we put in.
06:36.201 --> 06:36.301
[SPEAKER_01]: And,
06:37.602 --> 06:44.628
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you can look at all the blue prints you like, but it's not necessarily about copying someone else.
06:44.869 --> 06:48.072
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me turn my ramble into a question for you, Kate.
06:49.502 --> 06:53.923
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do you start when you're not when you're in that place of going, what an earth are we going to talk about?
06:53.983 --> 06:55.864
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you how do you tackle that?
06:56.724 --> 07:01.526
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to focus on news letters primarily in this, but I'd also really like to touch on flows.
07:01.686 --> 07:03.626
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is your automated campaigns.
07:04.246 --> 07:09.908
[SPEAKER_02]: So that will be triggered by either a custom action or a milestone that they've hit or you've set as a brand.
07:10.588 --> 07:15.450
[SPEAKER_02]: And what these campaigns do is be really relevant, really timely and really personalized.
07:16.170 --> 07:21.291
[SPEAKER_02]: and they're much more effective than your broader brush news letters, which still have their place and they're still really important.
07:22.112 --> 07:28.533
[SPEAKER_02]: But recent research has proven that they drive eight times more revenue than campaigns do, that research was done by Clavio.
07:28.693 --> 07:32.274
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're super super effective and we just can't speak about one without the other.
07:32.795 --> 07:34.135
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would spend a lot of time
07:38.476 --> 07:48.922
[SPEAKER_02]: and then think about putting some more time aside to think about your news that is, but your most active and recent customers should be receiving your flows and they'll naturally be more relevant to them.
07:49.598 --> 07:59.585
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose that's kind of one of the things is if our flows are good, well-built, tic-setters, talking about the right things, then that's almost the money-making part dealt with.
08:00.005 --> 08:09.332
[SPEAKER_01]: Because when someone's in the mindset, it will have been picked up by a trigger and they'll be getting those more transactional messages, which gives us more freedom to be more interesting.
08:09.372 --> 08:13.235
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose with the newsletters, is that a fair way to think about it, or if I miss a new answer?
08:13.835 --> 08:14.435
[SPEAKER_02]: No, not at all.
08:14.455 --> 08:15.335
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's really fair.
08:15.375 --> 08:19.436
[SPEAKER_02]: I think people are starting to realise that email marketing is also a form of brand awareness.
08:19.917 --> 08:22.037
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a way to remain relevant.
08:22.097 --> 08:28.679
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a way to be top of mind for your customers even if they're outside of typical purchasing cycles.
08:28.699 --> 08:31.100
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would completely agree with that.
08:31.220 --> 08:32.780
[SPEAKER_02]: They have their place and they have their purpose.
08:33.223 --> 08:35.685
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's assume we've got good flows in place.
08:36.705 --> 08:39.367
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we improve that newsletter calendar?
08:40.128 --> 08:47.533
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first piece of advice I'd love to give is I would urge the brand to do a little bit of a mindset shift.
08:47.633 --> 08:52.817
[SPEAKER_02]: So instead of thinking about what are we selling, I want you to think about why customers are buying.
08:53.297 --> 09:01.823
[SPEAKER_02]: So that small shift will allow you to kind of unlock the reasons why customers should be interacting with you as a brand and what problems that you can be solving
09:03.544 --> 09:21.490
[SPEAKER_02]: some kind of skin concern or your alleviating a little bit of guilt because they want to be fashion forward but a worried about the environment just really zeroing in on the way that your brand is solving a customs bubble of all help kind of unlock interesting content that you can send and just being really certain about what those reasons are.
09:22.490 --> 09:23.291
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be the first thing.
09:23.511 --> 09:24.011
[SPEAKER_01]: Got you.
09:24.031 --> 09:31.597
[SPEAKER_01]: So rather than going, we're going to do dresses, then short, then denim, then shoes, then accessories.
09:31.777 --> 09:35.820
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking actually what we're going to do is we're going to do wedding season.
09:36.800 --> 09:38.281
[SPEAKER_01]: Mother of the bride deep dive.
09:38.882 --> 09:39.602
[SPEAKER_01]: It's too hot.
09:41.204 --> 09:47.228
[SPEAKER_01]: And cycle through those reasons for wanting to buy rather than we've got dresses.
09:47.428 --> 09:48.109
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got dresses.
09:49.172 --> 09:51.215
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a little bit of both, right?
09:51.315 --> 10:00.165
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I'll go into the kind of like broad buckets of how I would start ideating a newsletter calendar, but I think you can be both.
10:00.306 --> 10:04.631
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what my advice would be is to let those reasons ultimately underpin.
10:05.291 --> 10:06.272
[SPEAKER_02]: what you are doing.
10:06.412 --> 10:14.857
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you do want something that's category-based, start thinking you can think again like, okay, they do want to dress and it might be because they have an event.
10:14.917 --> 10:20.520
[SPEAKER_02]: So let that be threaded in through your copy and your imagery and your subject lines.
10:21.061 --> 10:22.902
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think a little bit of those for sure.
10:23.382 --> 10:39.685
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're completely right that most brands are just doing the category and product focus stuff, the what we sell stuff and they're not flipping around to the why, why, why, why, dare I ask any advice on how to find out what the why is if anyone's going, I've no idea why they buy.
10:40.821 --> 10:42.761
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, it's a really good question.
10:42.781 --> 10:45.682
[SPEAKER_02]: So my top advice for that would be just to speak to your customers.
10:45.842 --> 10:57.065
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would always urge brands to regularly send surveys out to their customers and also a step further than that to get people on the phone or get people onto a video call.
10:57.405 --> 11:03.306
[SPEAKER_02]: You will be so pleasantly surprised of how many people are generous with their time and generous with their thoughts.
11:03.746 --> 11:06.267
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would always recommend just speaking to them
11:11.088 --> 11:11.388
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
11:11.469 --> 11:17.773
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's talk then about different categories of users that you said different buckets is how you think about it.
11:18.433 --> 11:31.403
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, so if I was going to approach a brand newsletter to calendar and start ideaating on that, there are these yeah board kind of categories or buckets that I would put emails in and this is how you keep things fresh when you don't necessarily have a new product.
11:32.023 --> 11:37.868
[SPEAKER_02]: So, first kind of bucket would be educational, so that would be something like how to use how to style.
11:38.328 --> 11:48.877
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're a skin care brand, it's an ingredient highlight or a material spotlight, for example, you know, why this linen is special or why linen can be great in this summer months.
11:48.897 --> 11:51.339
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's also a moment in time and it's very seasonal.
11:51.719 --> 11:56.062
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that kind of how to and what you can offer outside of the transaction always really key.
11:57.234 --> 12:16.305
[SPEAKER_02]: Another bucket I would lean into heavily is editorial and trend-led, so you can look at things like your brand story here, it's a little bit softer on the cell, broader trends in fashion and in life, discovery of new categories, or anything if you're a founder-led brand, a founder-favorites is also really interesting one because we have seen
12:16.705 --> 12:21.809
[SPEAKER_02]: a big uptick in these founder-led brands and customers really connecting with the storing the people behind it.
12:22.370 --> 12:26.953
[SPEAKER_02]: So that I would also recommend to adjacent to that is of course season also.
12:27.053 --> 12:29.395
[SPEAKER_02]: What's happening now is it winter is it summer is it spring?
12:30.096 --> 12:31.997
[SPEAKER_02]: Products spotlights work really well.
12:32.117 --> 12:40.224
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have five skews and one of those is a day moisturizer really zering into what makes that special.
12:40.244 --> 12:40.644
[SPEAKER_02]: You can use
12:43.326 --> 12:57.369
[SPEAKER_02]: the problems that it's targeting for the individual, so they fill the connection there and any reviews and usually see it's always working really well so you can both kind of like zoom out and zero into the things just to kind of refresh and repackage.
12:58.210 --> 13:08.632
[SPEAKER_02]: And then with the categories that we spoke about, so you can go up or down, it could be as granular as, you know, linen mini dresses or it could be as borders kind of dresses as a whole so you can play around with these things
13:13.854 --> 13:34.133
[SPEAKER_02]: themes also good so like what ties the products together so there's some kind of running thread through so say again if you've got five skews and their all necklaces do three of them feature a specific stone and can you talk about the meaning behind that and why these things work together or what the actual differences between them are.
13:35.373 --> 13:36.793
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, commercial.
13:37.094 --> 13:43.655
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're looking at bestsellers, sales, give-or-purchase, top-rated, new-in, all-of-face things.
13:43.675 --> 13:59.840
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, we realise that not all brands have a constant stream of new-in, but any kind of drops that they do have, I would definitely be focusing on emails and how we can kind of preview and tease and really make the most of that in those kind of comms channels.
14:00.380 --> 14:06.583
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always find that when it comes to confidence, I don't only need what I need to post, I don't know what I need to post it.
14:06.823 --> 14:10.785
[SPEAKER_01]: The actual solution always comes, just as you've outlined and kind of like getting granular with it.
14:11.445 --> 14:18.829
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the actual types and then rather than just going, what can we say go, what can we say this educational, what can we say that seasonal, what can we say that's all of this?
14:19.449 --> 14:27.513
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see that when someone's worked through all those buckets and done that better customer research, they're going to have like too many ideas at the
14:28.973 --> 14:30.094
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you structure this?
14:30.114 --> 14:34.597
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've all heard they like, you know, was it jab jab or whatever it was?
14:35.177 --> 14:40.901
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the title of that book, you know, like send three normal messages on one really salesy message.
14:41.241 --> 14:44.824
[SPEAKER_01]: How is there an obvious ratio to go with these?
14:44.864 --> 14:46.105
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it depend on the brand?
14:46.165 --> 14:55.090
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on, you know, the sales, you know, if you go back to my category obsession, which appears to be in this podcast today, you know, if you're, if only,
14:56.211 --> 15:00.453
[SPEAKER_01]: 5% if your sales are earrings, they're not going to make up 50% of your email sends.
15:00.873 --> 15:08.155
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you go about working out the mix before we even get to scheduling it week to week day today?
15:08.175 --> 15:09.856
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really good question.
15:10.036 --> 15:19.839
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I always try to showcase kind of all areas of the catalog, even if we know that certain categories perform less than others.
15:24.901 --> 15:32.325
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe reuniting attention for someone who's always spent time in your jeans category and didn't actually really understand that you had belts.
15:32.485 --> 15:40.670
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would not shy away from testing and experimenting because it's the only way we can learn what's going to really resonate with the audience because
15:41.030 --> 15:44.173
[SPEAKER_02]: sales data is fine, but so much of these things are actually emotional.
15:44.694 --> 15:46.075
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can't we can't measure it.
15:46.115 --> 15:48.557
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to to see how it goes.
15:48.577 --> 15:52.141
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say, you know, you need to really think about the seasonal category.
15:52.161 --> 15:55.364
[SPEAKER_02]: So like far this day, when we're doing these things are only going to happen in June.
15:55.384 --> 15:56.485
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to be aware of that.
15:57.025 --> 16:03.607
[SPEAKER_02]: and then I think it's about looking at what's sold in the past, but also what are people searching for on site.
16:04.047 --> 16:18.910
[SPEAKER_02]: So when I worked at Trudeau, obviously we're talking multi-skis, many, many, many, many, many skis, but I would often shape some of the email content based on not necessarily what people are buying, but what people were searching for and understanding there are trends within those terms.
16:19.370 --> 16:22.191
[SPEAKER_02]: So look around and see what's working for other channels
16:24.291 --> 16:30.315
[SPEAKER_02]: But I wouldn't necessarily say there's an obvious logical way of doing things.
16:30.435 --> 16:37.659
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say apart from things that are happening now on a season old, you need to just test and it's very and find out what works well with your audience.
16:38.400 --> 16:42.842
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we're not going to start off when we've got this big list of ideas going right.
16:42.862 --> 16:47.585
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to work through all the editorial and trends ideas over the next few months now.
16:47.905 --> 16:52.468
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do one than another than another and start getting some idea of what our audience
16:53.909 --> 16:54.429
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
16:54.909 --> 16:58.050
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, yes, like what you've said there, I would just mix it up.
16:58.090 --> 17:01.651
[SPEAKER_02]: You could do one editorial, one product focus, one UGC.
17:02.271 --> 17:04.431
[SPEAKER_02]: So, just again, it's about keeping it fresh.
17:04.492 --> 17:09.813
[SPEAKER_02]: If you did constant product spotlights, it would just stop resonating and you might see some fatigue.
17:09.853 --> 17:11.893
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's part of the freshness, right?
17:11.913 --> 17:16.654
[SPEAKER_02]: Looking at a different way of merchandising what you have in front of you.
17:17.315 --> 17:21.756
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other, you know, one of the biggest most annoying questions in email
17:24.096 --> 17:27.739
[SPEAKER_01]: I should know the biggest most annoying question in email marketing is which day should I send my emails on?
17:27.759 --> 17:29.240
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going there, everyone.
17:29.541 --> 17:30.301
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going there.
17:30.321 --> 17:32.223
[SPEAKER_01]: You know the answer and there isn't one.
17:33.024 --> 17:39.569
[SPEAKER_01]: But the second most annoying question in email marketing is how many times should I be sending my newsletter?
17:40.169 --> 17:45.874
[SPEAKER_01]: Which of course, in the context what we're talking about here is hugely important because it's how many ideas do we actually get to deploy?
17:46.294 --> 17:50.377
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're a fort, you know one email or fortnight, we're only going to get through 24 in a year.
17:55.001 --> 18:00.467
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're sending one, you know, five a week, so then we've got an awful lot more we can do.
18:00.527 --> 18:06.852
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you kind of get a good angle on that before you know how much you can send?
18:07.813 --> 18:09.475
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to look at that in a couple of ways.
18:09.755 --> 18:15.641
[SPEAKER_02]: So firstly, I'm going to think about it from a customer perspective.
18:15.741 --> 18:18.503
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, understanding the perfect,
18:19.497 --> 18:20.939
[SPEAKER_02]: cadence of newsletters.
18:21.139 --> 18:23.482
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be looking at how people are responding to them.
18:23.602 --> 18:26.605
[SPEAKER_02]: So keep sending to people as long as they're engaging with you.
18:26.845 --> 18:30.329
[SPEAKER_02]: Open's clicking going through to your website.
18:31.230 --> 18:34.134
[SPEAKER_02]: As long as people are doing that, feel free to keep sending to them.
18:34.314 --> 18:36.436
[SPEAKER_02]: But also look at the other metrics.
18:36.456 --> 18:38.599
[SPEAKER_02]: So how many unsubscribe you driving, how many
18:38.959 --> 18:42.220
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of customers are you churning by sending a higher volume?
18:42.360 --> 18:43.700
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it worth it in the long run?
18:44.961 --> 18:59.585
[SPEAKER_02]: I've worked with the brand recently and we found essentially that people who are subscribed to email had a 67% bigger chance of repurchasing them people who weren't subscribed to the email so it's really important to nurture your list.
19:00.125 --> 19:03.690
[SPEAKER_02]: So, look at those signals that people are sending if they're still engaging with you.
19:03.710 --> 19:04.230
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fine.
19:04.811 --> 19:07.935
[SPEAKER_02]: The other way I'm going to look at it is team and in-house.
19:08.115 --> 19:14.062
[SPEAKER_02]: So, to send what emails, you would to send what emails of a certain quality and what you really want to represent your brand.
19:14.082 --> 19:17.407
[SPEAKER_02]: You also have to think about the people and the teams who are going to be creating them.
19:17.907 --> 19:41.888
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are things that you can do, you can template certain layouts and if something works for you, then definitely be creative in how you can repurpose and reuse that layout and that framing, but I would also look at getting a read on what's working with your audience and then sending out the ones that are working the best and building up from there because you're not always going to have the resource on your team to send five emails a week, nor should you need to.
19:42.668 --> 20:02.882
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say it's all about testing, learning, understanding of people engaging with you, but looking at the bigger picture and looking at things like your monthly unsubscribes, how many people are coming onto the base and how quickly they're leaving, and things like that as well as really being ruthless in your prioritization within your team so that you're sending out the ones that you know are working the best.
20:02.982 --> 20:09.727
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't, yes, so that everyone can have time to execute them to a high standard and also understand and analyse how they went.
20:10.408 --> 20:15.274
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you bring in the team capacity into that, because then it's so often gets forgotten.
20:15.815 --> 20:26.430
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, oh, an email is an email is an email, no, an email is a good email when we've had the time to research it, create it well, deploy it and learn from it.
20:27.030 --> 20:32.711
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like if you, you know, your team's currently failing to do that on two sends a week.
20:32.971 --> 20:34.171
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't take them up to five.
20:34.912 --> 20:37.952
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to find a way to enable them to get the lessons from it so they can improve.
20:37.992 --> 20:41.553
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, you're just creating content for the sake of content, which is absolutely.
20:42.053 --> 20:42.853
[UNKNOWN]: Not a good idea.
20:43.673 --> 20:52.635
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, anything we've missed there that the audience needs to know of we covered everything that they should know about when we're talking about how to be interesting when you have nothing to share.
20:53.583 --> 20:54.844
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we've covered a lot of it.
20:55.185 --> 21:00.951
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just say that as always, like email doesn't live in a silo, it's not an island.
21:01.071 --> 21:14.765
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you're thinking about your email marketing as a whole, please take into consideration the other channels that people could possibly be engaging with your SMS, your WhatsApp, your unboxing experience, your direct mail because email is just one part of it.
21:15.165 --> 21:32.745
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think we covered everything in terms of how to keep it interesting and keep it fresh and it really just comes down to thinking about why your customer should be engaged with you and what are buying from you and thinking about all those different ways that you can repackage and repurpose the things that you have because there will be lots of interesting ways that you can frame it.
21:33.485 --> 21:33.946
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
21:34.006 --> 21:34.687
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Kate.
21:34.707 --> 21:37.091
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been great picking your brains about all of this.
21:37.531 --> 21:47.906
[SPEAKER_01]: Listers remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Kate's insider tips on email marketing and my suggestions for more free resources to help you improve things even further in your businesses.
21:50.188 --> 21:54.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kate, so far we've gone deep into how to be interesting when you have nothing to share.
21:54.990 --> 21:58.911
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to hours with your insider knowledge about the whole of email marketing.
21:58.951 --> 22:06.514
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, you're on to be anything to do with email marketing, which of course does include everything we've already been talking about.
22:06.594 --> 22:08.254
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate, are you ready for the insider tips?
22:08.935 --> 22:09.255
[SPEAKER_01]: Ready.
22:09.875 --> 22:11.396
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, let's start with new be advice.
22:11.856 --> 22:17.758
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
22:18.802 --> 22:25.110
[SPEAKER_02]: So for this, I would just underpin everything with the knowledge that your customers are human.
22:25.731 --> 22:32.799
[SPEAKER_02]: So at the end of every email, every screen, every ad is a person and that person is forming their own unique opinions about the brand.
22:33.400 --> 22:37.785
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we all know, a reputation takes a long time to build and a short time to destroy.
22:38.326 --> 22:58.094
[SPEAKER_02]: So let that knowledge guide you when you're making decisions around what you shouldn't be doing and the numbers that you see on a page are a person walking around and they have a certain opinion of you and you can very easily make that really positive or make it negative and once it's become negative, it's really hard to get it back.
22:58.754 --> 23:03.357
[SPEAKER_02]: and on the flip side, as I mentioned earlier, the fact that they are humans means that they really want to be heard.
23:03.477 --> 23:10.100
[SPEAKER_02]: So use that to your advantage and speak regularly to them and let those stories really guide your customer journeys.
23:10.820 --> 23:13.522
[SPEAKER_01]: Now once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
23:13.562 --> 23:15.743
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favourite way to improve performance?
23:16.564 --> 23:21.646
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to say it's gotta be testing and iterating.
23:22.086 --> 23:25.468
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to work in a business where my manager who's opinion
23:27.730 --> 23:40.417
[SPEAKER_02]: had some advice where he would always say to me like don't tinker, so take the big swings because the big swings are the ways that work and it really learns something quickly and they're the ways that you're going to change things for the better and you're going to learn the lessons.
23:40.898 --> 23:52.005
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me I would always say test and iterate and do that by not incurring and taking big swings and also for team leads to give their teams the space and the permission to do that.
23:52.545 --> 24:01.979
[SPEAKER_02]: So not everything needs to be a button color change as an AB test, but do something bigger, and you will see a bigger result, especially if you're a small team and you're a small band, like just do it, take the big swings.
24:02.448 --> 24:03.149
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
24:03.729 --> 24:06.010
[SPEAKER_01]: Take the big, big swings and stop tinkering.
24:06.251 --> 24:06.751
[SPEAKER_01]: Brilliant.
24:07.051 --> 24:10.293
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely need that written up written somewhere in my site line.
24:11.054 --> 24:15.236
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone listening wants to learn more, is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?
24:15.897 --> 24:17.778
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to plug my own soft stack here.
24:17.818 --> 24:20.100
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wrote a write a soft stack called kept.
24:20.240 --> 24:23.122
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kept by Kate.substacked.com.
24:23.562 --> 24:24.663
[SPEAKER_02]: So please join me on next.
24:24.723 --> 24:27.965
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk about email loyalty, retention, all of that good stuff.
24:28.325 --> 24:33.727
[SPEAKER_02]: And outside of that, I truly believe that podcast are some of the greatest free resources that they have.
24:33.747 --> 24:47.513
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, shout out to keep optimizing, but I'd also love to recommend building brand advocacy, which is an amazing podcast with some brilliant guests, so founders and kind of heads of brand heads of marketing, who are so generous in their tips and stories.
24:47.593 --> 24:49.053
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just very, very inspirational.
24:49.573 --> 24:53.695
[SPEAKER_02]: And then on a personal development level, I absolutely love working hard by Grace Beverly.
24:53.795 --> 24:55.436
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she does a brilliant job of,
24:56.276 --> 25:00.981
[SPEAKER_02]: giving career and business advice and again, using a really rounded panel of guests.
25:01.061 --> 25:02.663
[SPEAKER_02]: So, big shout out to those.
25:03.203 --> 25:03.924
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, love those.
25:03.964 --> 25:06.467
[SPEAKER_01]: Two juicy podcasts for you all to go and have a listen to.
25:06.927 --> 25:08.569
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much for those, Kate.
25:09.010 --> 25:10.731
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, finally, it's crystal ball time.
25:10.831 --> 25:14.455
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for?
25:15.276 --> 25:20.779
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to do something that's kind of email marketing adjacent and just dip my toe into loyalty very slightly here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But one of the things that I'm seeing and also hearing about is the idea of experiential loyalty.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what that means is customers are becoming a little bit fatigued when it comes to discounts and
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[SPEAKER_02]: money off and really how they want to be rewarded and shown appreciation is to create an experience and something that money can't buy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's how you're going to get the connection between the brand and the consumer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what I believe that smart retention focus brand will be focusing on in the upcoming years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're so absolutely spot on and as we move into kind of a not post AI world, but what really matters world and that human experience or connection is all so I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate, we're very near the end of the show though.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and your business?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, you can find me over on LinkedIn.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's Kate Hammond.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can visit my website, which is www.sundim.marketing, or please join me on sub-stack and subscribe at www.keptbykate.substack.com, as I said, be talking about email, CRM, loyalty, and all that good stuff.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd love to see you there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So go get signed up to that sub stack and we'll make sure there's links to all of that in the show notes on the website for you Kate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This has been an awesome way to kick off our latest series on email marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for being here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you so much for having me with pleasure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: great insight there from K on how to kind of get past that mental block of what should we be talking about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But also deeply into what should you be talking about to drive their performance?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the first point she made was that you need your flows in place to do the heavy lifting to drive those sales based on customer actions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then your newsletter, you get them and have more freedom with what you put in that which enables you to do the real
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then we talked about those buckets that she was talking about all those those different types.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't just think an email about our products.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Think about are we talking about seasons?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are we going deep on a product?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking about events?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking about editorial content?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is it founder story content?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Think of all those buckets.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now they'll probably be different for your business.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But work out what they are for your business and then think about what content you can be sending about each of those.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously to help you, you need to switch from that what we sell into why they buy mindset to create the really valuable content that's really going to drive long term results.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and then work and optimise to see what the right quantity of emails to get the quality and the analysis and the ongoing optimization is for your team and what your customers also respond to then slot in those and test optimise see what works in those buckets of what works and those email content ideas.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can get the links to all those things we discussed, the full transcript of the episode, the notes and more at keepoptimizing.com.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our special direct episode short links that's keepopt.com for us the number of this episode which will take you straight to the right page of the website and when you get there please do add yourself to my email list so you don't miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You've enjoyed this one and want to continue learning about email marketing right now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then none of the rest of this series is yet oh yeah available to you but you can pick up our thread from the last time we covered it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So scroll back up your feet to episodes 254 to 258 which is the last time we went deep into email marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We covered several
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[SPEAKER_01]: Pop-ups, welcome campaigns, customer retention and SMS, so lots there to get into.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find our full thread of email marketing content via the shortlinkkeepop.com forward-slash email.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, please do tell your fellow marketers about the Keep Optimizing podcast because we create it to help as many of you as possible to improve the performance of your e-commerce marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode so I can help you to keep
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[SPEAKER_00]: Access everything, keep optimizing, at keepoptimizing.com, that's with a mess, not a z.
