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The the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
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the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
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the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
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the the the the the the the
the the the the the bah. All
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right, what's up? Everybody?
Meltdown time? So people have said for
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last few weeks because they want to
get attention, they want clicks and whatever.
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Oh, you want debate this guy, you want debate this guy.
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So I've talked about having debates with
this guy for months. He would only
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want he only wanted to debate the
Philly Oakuay. I wasn't interested in that
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debate because he had already had that
debate with UBI. We did a whole
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review of that debate with David Rhan
and so I told him, I want
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to debate the thing that scholasticism rests
on, which is the self evident maxims,
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the first principles of your system,
and if that falls, scholasticism isn't
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true. He will not debate that. I've asked him for at least a
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year now, maybe eight nine months
to do it. He won't do it.
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So he does a stream talking about
me or something. I don't know.
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I didn't watch the whole stream.
Somebody sent it to him and said,
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hey, he's talking about you.
Do you want to hop on?
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And I went over there and said, I'm ready. I'll come over here
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and debate you. So notice he
won't come over to my end and debate.
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He won't debate me. I'll go
to his home court and argue with
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him because when he's making this new
regurgitated argument for philly oquay. Which keep
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in mind, these are people who
think that citing authorities counts as arguments right
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because they still exist in the Middle
Ages. They think it's the year thirteen
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hundred, even though the Vatican doesn't
care about Tomism anymore, even though their
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whole sect has moved past Tomism,
literally doesn't care about it at all.
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These people believe and larp as if
it's the year fourteen hundred and their heads.
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They're living in a scriptorium online,
and no one else in the rest
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of the Roman world in terms of
power, authority, and status, cares
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about Tomism, So it only exists
in the trid world. And why is
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the trid world melting down of late? Why are they having such issues well,
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it's not just because of the obvious
absurdities that we point out with their
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saints, which they have to hold
to Margaret Mary Alacoquay's miracles and visions,
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because her sainctity so called, is
actually part of the ordinary magistrum. And
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we can look at those documents that
discuss that in a minute. But imagine
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saying that, well, I don't
have to believe her visions. I just
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can accept that she's a saint.
Well, if her visions aren't true,
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then she was a deluded woman.
And according to Durami thirteen, Derami eighteen
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Galatians one, false prophecies and false
visions make you a fraud, not a
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saint. So it's totally inconsistent to
think that, oh, I can just
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accept Margaret Mary Alacoquay as a saint, but not all the visions about sacred
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heart and that Jesus supposedly told her
to carve his name into her chest and
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sign a blood packed with the flowing
blood, and then afterwards she reopened the
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wounds to make it bleed more.
This is the Roman Catholic idea of sanctity.
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So there's something about the I mean, they are gluttons for punishment,
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and I guess that's why they like
to continue to be punished in these discussions
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when they make really fundamental mistakes.
And what he's done here is a word
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concept fallacy. So he thought that
because there was discussion of relations in the
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Cappadoceans, which is very frequent in
the Orthodox tradition, we know all about
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this, we talk about all the
time. I've had doctor Bob Branson on
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many, many times to discuss the
Cappadocian triadology. That's what his dissertation is
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about. And I've read a significant
portion of the Cappadocian Corpus that's in English,
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and their discussion is about relations of
origin. Hypostatic properties are the foundation
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for the relations of origin. And
as the famous Orthodoxy Elergi of Ladimirlowski said,
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a person is a subject, not
a relation. So you can't identify
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persons even by relations. The persons
have relations, but they can't be identified
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primarily by a relation, because a
relation is a predicate and a person or
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a hypostasis is a subject. So
they certainly have relations, and they certainly
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have relations that are fundamental, such
as the son is the son of the
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father, so praternity to filiation.
Those are certainly relations, but the relation
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is not the person. And that's
why when Aquinas says persona at rolatio,
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the Orthodox tradition always took issue with
that, because a relation, again is
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a predicate and not a subject.
A subject is a person, the subject
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Bob, the subject Bill, the
subject son of God. Those are divine
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subjects in the trinity. For us, a person is a subject or an
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agent, and a relation is something
that a person, a subject or agent
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has. But because of the tendency
towards collapsing collapsing distinctions into the essence Intnism,
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Augustinianism and then Tomism has always had
a struggle and a tendency to speculate
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and want to come up with ways
to make these distinctions other than and outside
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of the relations of origin and hypostatic
properties that the Cappadocians and their theology ends
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up having dogmatized at the constantinople one. This is why the Cappadocians, for
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example, speak of the Father unanimously
in the writings as the soul cause.
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The hyposide of property that picks them
out is soul cause fount ark and ark,
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et cetera. Source, that's his
hypothetic property. Basil famously says that
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the son is the son because he's
the eternally generated son of the father.
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The spirit is the spirit because he's
eternally spirated. And the famous quote from
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Basil is that there is a difference
between spiration and generation. We know what
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the difference is, we do not
know. And that's pretty common. I
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mean, that's very well known.
It's a very common. So when you
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get to stricter definitions or ideas of
simplicity that we find in origin Plutonis and
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then in Augustine, and that definition
is essentially repeated between those three people.
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And when simplicity is catched out mainly
as not having distinctions, an absolute unity
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without distinctions, you then have a
challenge without presupposition. That's a metaphysical presupposition.
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And the rod of Galwitz's thesis and
the Bradshaw book showed that that's not
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the approach that the Cavedocians did.
And even the Kongar paper that we're talking
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about, which makes the point that
there's a difference between relations of opposition and
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relations of origin between august and the
Cavedocians, admits this. So the funniest
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part I think of the whole thing
was just simply that he thought that relations
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just always meant a relationship of opposition. When what happens in the course of
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Trinitarian theology is that the Augustinian definition
of simplicity, which then led to other
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ideas like philly oaquey in on the
Trinity, leads him to speculating about other
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possible ways to distinguish the persons.
So, for example, if we wanted
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to distinguish father son in his holy
holy Spirit, but there is a philioque,
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Now there's a new relationship and a
new property, you could say that
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father and son have that spirit lacks
or if the father has a power,
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Augustine argued, then it seems to
necessitate the son should also have that power
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too, or else there would be
a kind of subordination. But Augustine apparently
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missed the fact that, well,
if the spirit lacks that power, then
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he's also subordinated. And that's the
basis for namely, the power of causing
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a person. So it's to confuse
the hypostatic properties with the essential properties or
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attributes. The essential attributes are common
to all three persons. That's why the
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Cappadocians say that anything you say about
the Trinity, it's either a property or
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power positive property or power that one
of them has unique to that one,
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or it's common to all three persons. That's a Cappadot rule or law.
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So, for example, causing a
person can't be something that two persons have,
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because that would mean that it's an
essential property. If two have it,
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three must have it. If it's
an essential property, then the Holy
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Spirit spir rates himself and nobody believes
that except maybe idiot Roman Catholics. I
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don't know. But the whole point
here is just simply that monarchical trinitarianism in
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the East and the Cappadoceans does not
struggle with and have the same problems and
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issues that later Latin theology has because
of their assumptions about simplicity. Now,
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if the debate really progresses to where
I would like it to debate to go,
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then what happens is that we realize
that, well, we all know
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that the Plutonian definition of what simplicity
is is true, do we? I
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mean? Rodshaw's whole book Ariosol East
and West is premised on arguing that the
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Capbudotionans don't go with a plutonium definition
of simplicity. Their definition of simplicity starts
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with whether or not God is acted
upon or whether he acts, And it's
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obvious why the Cappudotions wouldn't want to
start with a radical essentialist identity thesis view
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of simplicity like we see it fourth
Lattering Council with Lombard, because it's very
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difficult to have a triad when you
start with an absolutely simple essence, it's
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your starting point. Triad becomes something
tertiary, something secondary, something that's like
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a diminished status. But regardless,
all of this was none of this was
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really what this issue was about,
because I left to comment saying that he
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misunderstood relations of opposition in Augustinian theology
and why it was used and why it
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arose versus relations in the Cappadocians,
which is primarily relations of origin opposition.
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As Orthodox theologians have criticized this position
in the past, notes relates to two
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things, to a diad, So
if the trinity is really a triad,
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it doesn't make a whole lot of
sense to utilize the idea of opposition.
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And by opposition, I mean the
metaphysical baggage that comes along with dialectical opposition.
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And that's precisely what you see in
Augustine. And if you doubt me
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on this again, Congar wrote a
whole essay just surveying the difference between the
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Augustinian and Cappadocian approaches. It's not
even really that controversial. But what's happened,
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and this is what always happens with
the Tomas and with these guys,
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is that they utilize word concept fallacies
where they see this word here, they
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see the word over here, they
then assume that it's all talking about the
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same theological meaning. And they do
that because of what they're epistemology. They
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have an empiricist based epistemology. They
believe in the peripatetic axiom that there's nothing
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in the intellect that is not first
in the senses. And that's a quote
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from Aquinas and de ver Atat citing
Aristotle. It's called the peripatetic axiom.
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But no Toomas, no scholastic will
be able to give an account for their
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starting points, for their self evident
principles. And I can just bring up
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all day long the criterion problem,
which they actually like to dismiss, even
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though I shared a paper from a
famous Catholic cardinal who cited at the very
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top of the of the paper talking
about how the criterion problem dominates philosophy.
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So they don't even care about what
their own academic say. They just handwaig
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whatever's a problem to them. And
they again, they think they're living in
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the fourteen hundreds, so they don't
have to answer or reply to any arguments
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post fourteen hundred. Why because a
quitiness bro because being bro And we saw
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the other day the Thomas that was
talking smack all day, he just didn't
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come. He said, I will
come and debate you at ten o'clock your
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time or whatever. No show.
Wagner's been saying, oh, you won't
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debate me. He's scared. Dollar're
scared. So I have to go to
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his stream to debate him because I'm
scared when I've been asking him to come
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debate these topics endlessly. Now,
why would I talk about epistemology? You
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just wanted to deflect. Oh,
you just wanted to deflict. If we
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get to an issue where, for
example, the Thomas says, well,
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we know that this is what simplicity
means, because it has to mean this,
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because that's what simplicity is. They
have a metaphysical assumption. But if
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I have a different metaphysical assumption about
simplicity and about energies and about God's unity,
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et cetera, et cetera, how
do we resolve this question? Well,
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ultimately it's going to go back to
something more fundamental, because they're putting
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the metaphysical cart before the epistemic course, which is what's our starting point for
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going about these issues. For me, in my position, it's divine revelation.
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It's not the first principles of Aristotle. I'm not going to let aristotles
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philosophy dictate what things are possible metaphysically
in the Bible. And this is precisely
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why they don't believe in the Theophanes. And I think it's going to be
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obvious that they then must depart from
what is listed in scripture. And that's
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why I'm going to be from now, I'm just going to start going to
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all the texts about God's glory being
present in time and space, because that's
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all that's needed to refute these idiots. Now they're gonna say, but it's
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self evident that something that's absolutely simple
can't have distinctions and blah, blah blah
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blah blah. Okay, but now
you're denying the Trinity, dummy, Like,
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what are you talking about? So
we're going to open it up.
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We have some of the fans from
that sphere. I don't want to limit
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it to that though, So if
we have people that want to come on
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and discuss and defend other top topics, options are there as well. If
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you want to talk about Islam,
Protestantism, Gnosticism, Unitarianism, we can
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go into all of those as well. As my microlow. That's weird.
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Oh I know why it's low.
When you hop on stream Yard, it
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automatically, it automatically de boosts your
microphone. So that's better. Yeah,
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thank you for that. So his
stupid ass stream Yard or muted my microphone
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when I when I went on there. But let's give an example. So
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here's a Roman Catholic website. Before
we open it up to the Thomas here
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that want to talk this, here's
a Catholic a website doing the very thing
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that we see these people trying to
do. And perhaps he even utilized this
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website, who knows. But this
website argues, for example, that the
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Philly OK Way is mentioned for example
in Toledo, and so I think he's
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citing Denzinger here, whoever wrote this, and it's talking about how there's a
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there's a relation. It's kind of
mentioned in Toledo. You could say that
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there's a way they think to distinguish
the persons via relations of opposition. And
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you can see that the fact that
it's cited in Toledo, which is one
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of the first Philly oak Way supporting
councils, you can see that the concern
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is obviously associated with the mine simplicity
and defending philioque. But then this,
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even this Catholic guy notes that the
Greek fathers understood that it accurately describing the
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Trinity with the terms which have become
common is difficult. Gregory the theologian says,
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for example, what is it to
be preceding? You explain the in
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generacy of the Father, and then
I will give you a biological account of
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the son's begetting and the Spirit's proceeding. Now understand this is making the point
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I made a few minutes ago that
for the Cappadocians that there's a distinction between
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generation and procession. We know and
believe what that is. We do not
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know, and so this even this
Catholic website is noting that, right,
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And then Gregory goes on to say, we don't know. We're not told
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the specific distinction of the nature of
generation versus firation, but rather it is
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revealed to us that we know there
is a son and that there is a
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holy Spirit. Now, notice this
guy does the same thing that the Roman
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Catholics do. Here where this other
guy? So this guy he left so
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that we got a Toomas, I'm
about to go to you. You've been
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saying you want a debate, and
then he runs away. These are a
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bunch of women, like they're a
bunch of effeminate, like just ridiculous people.
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That's why they all had to come
on in the comments and say that
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I got cooked when he booted me
from his stream. So we'll play his
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clip here in a second. But
I notice here what the Catholics going to
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do the same move to try to
find in the Eastern Fathers, this idea
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of relations of opposition, which is
not there. There's relations of origin,
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and we're going to see that.
They also have this quote they're passing around
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y'all, thank you for coming back
critical Tomas and we'll go to you.
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In a second, Regomnissa says,
the person of the Father is begotten,
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and the Holy Spirit proceeds. Is
Therefore, because the cause of the persons
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is one, we say that he
is the one God and that he exists
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an eternity with these others. So
notice that that's relations of origin. You
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see that the persons of the Godhead
do not differ in time or in space,
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or in occupation or in activity.
They only differ between them in that
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the Father is a father and not
son. The Son is son and not
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father. Holy Spirit is neither father
nor son. So you can talk about
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distinctions, you can talk about them
having a differentiation of relation. But in
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this very comment, it is not
relations of opposition the way that it's formulated
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in the Augustinian arguments for filioque in
divine simplicity. For example, in the
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Kongar paper when he explains this difference, there was a specific Augustinian quote I
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wanted to read here. So by
the way, this whole paper talks about
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what I'm talking about, which shows
that it's not it's not even really a
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controversial thing here. It does I
think this is it? Augustine says,
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here it is in day trinitade.
Augustin takes Biblical Texas his pointed departure to
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show that they disprove the Aryan position. He then goes on to consider the
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problem if an intellectually valid agreement between
the unity and diversity is necessary. If
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there is that, if it's necessary, then at the same time sufficient to
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distinguish between absolute and relative terms.
The terms father's on the spirit distinguish the
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persons, and they are relative,
and they are relative in that they affirm
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the person's by opposing one to the
other. The problem is that it is
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true to say that there is a
relationship and that they do oppose one to
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another, but relations of opposition is
not a sufficient means to distinguish the persons
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without relations of origin. That's the
whole point. And Conggar goes on to
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make that point to say that the
competition fathers, even though he thinks that
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they're intending to express the same thing, they don't really differ from one another.
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I think Augustine does differ obviously disagree
with Cungar. But since Augustine does
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not express a consistent view of relations
of origin to a sole cause, this
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leads to difficulties in trying to explain. Well, then perhaps it's what differentiates
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son from spirit is that one is
from one and the other is from two.
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But that's a new additional property or
attribute, right that again subordinate spirit,
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because to be from one rather than
to be from two isn't really a
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consistent It doesn't really tell us anything
without all the other things. And also
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it violates the earlier competition principle that
there's nothing there's no property or attribute that
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two persons share that one lacks.
So being from two is not some positive
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property. And by the way,
it's it is a positive property because it's
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the father and the Son, according
to Lines in Florence, together are a
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single principle of the power inspiration of
the eternal existence of the Spirit. So
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the Father and the Son together,
as the councils of Line in Florence say,
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form a single principle. So there's
a singularity that's common to father and
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son. That is the power that
gives existence, eternal existence to the Holy
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Spirit. And it's something then that
the Holy Spirit clearly does not have.
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And then he goes on to talk
about the fact that part of the reason
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for this is that the Cappetitions begin
with person in their triology, and the
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Thomas and the Augustinians begin their triology
typically with essence. Yeah, exactly,
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So what I said isn't really even
that controversial. Now, I want to
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talk briefly about before we go to
critical Thomas the last point here, and
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I'll play his clip later. But
oh crap, let me do that.
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So their argument is that there's a
quote from Basil, and the quote that
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they're passing around is kind of bizarre
because it's not worded the way that the
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text that it supposedly is coming from
is worded. So let's look at this
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quote really quick, and you'll notice
that it's just talking about hyposthetic properties.
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It is not saying that relations of
opposition is the primary way to distinguish the
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person's. In fact, it doesn't
even really say that at all. In
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the nature of distinguishing marks, that's
for us, that's the hyposthetic properties,
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and that's what Basil's talking about here, to show otherness in the identity of
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the sub substance. So he's he's
saying that the hypostatic properties mark out what's
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distinct even though there's an identity of
substance or essence in the trinity. As
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for the distinguishing marks themselves, that
is, the hypestetic properties, they are
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often contradistinguished from one one from another
such that they are separated to the point
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of being contraries. So they are
contraries because they're of father versus son.
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It's not dialectical opposition, and that's
what is in the Augustinian and Tonistic position.
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How are they separated, Well,
they're separated because of the hypostatic properties
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are markers. They certainly do not
rupture the unity of the substance, as
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with winged and footed, and aquatic
and terrestrial, and rational and animal,
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Since there is one substance that underlies
them, these distinguishing marks do not make
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the substance foreign to itself. So, in other words, the essence that
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the Sun has is not different than
the essence that the Father has. Nor
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are they persuaded to join each other
in a kind of rebellion. They implant
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the activity of the things that they
identify as a kind of light in our
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soul and a guide to an unders
standing attainable by our minds. But you
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know, Meius, having transferred the
opposition of the distinguishing marks to the substance.
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So it's not relations of opposition in
the Augustinian sense, it's distinguishing relations
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via relations of origin. He just
uses the word opposition and he uses the
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word contrary, so that's too contrast. He takes this from the starting point
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of umpiety, scarring us with sophisms
as if we were children, the light
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should indeed be something other than the
unbegotteness. So Unmius, as you guys
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know, was a radical area.
And you know mes argue that the light
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that is the Sun is radically different
than the light that is the Father.
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So when the creed says God from
God, light from light, Youunomius is
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rejecting that. But this is not
the same thing as Conguard emits as relation
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00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:06.279
of opposition as a means to distinguish
the person's to help save the doctrine of
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the filioqui. So and note two
that in that in that distinction, Basil
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made it clear that the distinguishing marks
or opposition is not a dialectical metaphysical opposition.
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It's a distinction of relations to the
origin of the Father. If anyone
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wants to accept that which is true, namely that begotten and unbegotten, their
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distinctive features that enable identification and are
observed in the substance, which is the
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Unomian position, which leads to the
clear and unconfused. Note he's saying that
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if you if you don't make these
distinctions, you'll be a Eunomian. This
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leads to the clear, unconfused notion
of the Father and the Son. Then
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you will escape the danger of impiety
and preserve the logical coherence in his reasoning.
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The distinctive features, which are like
characters and forms observed in the substance
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the differentiate. So he's talking about
the what the hypostatic markers or properties are,
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beginning with the person of the Father
and not the essence. So you
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understand that from the outset, the
ordo theology of the Latin Church is wrong
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because it tends, especially after our
accidents in Middle Ages, to begin with
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the essence as the starting point.
Then you have the difficulty in the challenge
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of distinguishing within the triad a reality
of threeeness. But for the Cappadocians it
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begins with the person of the Father. As the other article that we just
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read admitted right, the other Catholic
Guy's article not Kungar, but the other
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one, noting that the Eastern fathers
begin with the concept of the person of
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the Father. This is monarchical trinitarianism. There's one God because there's one Father.
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That's what the Creed says. I
believe in one God, the Father.
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Paul says, we have one Lord
and Father of our Jesus, of
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Lord Jesus Christ. So for us, trinitarian theology begins with the person of
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the Father, and we do not
know the divine essence, so it doesn't
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make sense to even start any theology
with the divine essence at all. He
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says that these distinguishing characteristics, for
example, pick out the person, and
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yet the sameness of the substance or
nature is common to all three, whereas
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fatherhood and sonship are distinguishing marks.
The combination of both that is common and
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the unique we arrive at the comprehension
of truth. So all he's saying is
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that distinguishing marks of paternity and sonship
are relations. They're real relations. They're
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not fake or dislogical or conceptual.
They're real relations. But remember, persona
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at relatio cannot be true. A
relation is a predicate and not a subject,
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and the persons are the subjects,
they're the agents. Consequently, if
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you hear unbegotten light, you think
of the Father. When you hear begotten
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light, you think of the sun. In so far as they are light
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from light, or light and light, there's no contrarity between them, whereas
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in so far as they forgot and
begotten, one observes the opposition. So
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00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:35.320
this is just to distinguish them one
from another. But because being not the
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other is not a clear marker,
right, because le let me give an
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example of this. Each of the
persons is not the other two, right,
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But that doesn't tell me anything.
That's a true proposition. It is
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true to say that the Father is
not the Son or the Spirit, but
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that doesn't work as an actual concrete
thing to tell me anything, because all
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three of them equally share the proposition, not the other two. So even
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though it's true, it doesn't really
work as any kind of indicator or marker.
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And strictly speaking, dialectical opposition,
which is what we're talking about and
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what's imported by the Augustinian position,
only becomes necessary due to the radical,
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00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.519
divine simplicity positions that they start with
if you start your trinitary theology with the
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person of the Father, right,
what does Palama say? God did not
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say I am it? In Exodus
three in the in the Burning Bush,
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he said I am he, meaning
that we begin with the personhood of the
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Father, not the essence. So
using the term like an even using the
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term opposition, does not equate to
the dialectical idea of relations of opposition that
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comes about in later theology as congo
or even admits h critical tomist. Yeah,
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00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:23.760
go ahead, yeah, what's up? Man? I can't really hear
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00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:34.679
anything. I can hear you.
Huh, come out, come back in.
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00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:59.199
I mean we can all hear you. M h autocratic Go ahead,
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00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.840
man, I'm you Hey, j
how are you tonight? What's up?
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00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.079
I just had some questions, like, of course I'm in the Orthodox Church,
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canonical Russian Orthodox Church currently in most
of now actually, but I've been
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00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:21.440
like looking at the Orthodox anymore and
some people online, and I'd be curious
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to what you would say to the
response to old calendars or like some people
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call themselves true Orthodox. Yeah,
I mean that's a separate topic. We
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can deal with that. There's some
essays that cover that topic. But that's
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not the topic for today. But
thank you for for that critical you want
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00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:50.880
to try again. Thanks, there's
some Manuka honey in that. Yeah,
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00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.599
what's up? Can you hear me? Yeah? How you doing? I'm
367
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:58.239
good? How are you? I'm
good. I watched your debate with Christian
368
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:04.199
Blagom, and I have a couple
of questions. Sure, so you're talking
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about you were saying that if the
persons are distinguished by the relations, it
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doesn't necessarily follow the like relatively like, relatively opposing each other? Is that
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your position? Or so relative opposition
is what's used by later Augustinian post Augustinian
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theological argumentation to deal with problems,
for challenges to trinitarianism or to the filioquay.
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So it's not a thing that you
find in the capp of Doceians.
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You find one reference to the word
opposition, but that's not relations of opposition.
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Okay, So what do you think
relative Okay? So I'm going to
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00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.519
go what do you think relative oppositions
are? And what do you think the
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church brothers mean when they say positions? Since the properties, the formal properties,
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in their essence, don't import any
relations, and they don't make room
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for any relative opposition, So what
would you say, hold on, what
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00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:04.199
do you mean? What doesn't make
room for that? So for example,
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00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.639
like God's divine wisdom and gods divine
being, or God's divine wisdom and God's
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divine truth, things like formal properties
like that, they don't import a real
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relation between each other, the logical
proprelations. So there's no like relative opposition
384
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.400
there. But because the person's important, a relative opposition than the subsistent relations.
385
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:28.039
But you don't hold that, we
believe that the attributes or the energies
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00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.119
actually are really distinct. So I
don't have a problem. I don't have
387
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:36.639
the inconsistent position of saying that the
attributes are all synonymous with each other and
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00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:40.000
with the divine essence, but also
the persons really are distinct. That's the
389
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:45.079
term mystic position. Wait, you
believe that the attributes to really so you
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00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.599
believe that God's wisdom is not identified
to goodness at all? Correct? Okay,
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So then how would you respond when
someone tells you that you know,
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00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:00.760
you believe in a composite being.
Yeah, because I don't believe in a
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composite being any more than you do. Because you believe that the persons are
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really not identical to each other.
So you believe there's a real distinction between
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the father and the son. Makes
sense, That does, because it's the
396
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:17.320
very argument that's had for centuries about
this issue. No, So composition comes
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from a dependency relation in the form
of that the essential properties and something.
398
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So the reason why I'm a composite
being is because I'm a black man.
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My skin color is dependent on my
substance, which is me. Now,
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there's nothing you're saying. You're not
a composite you are You said you're not
401
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:38.360
or are a composite being? No, I said I am a composite giving
402
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:45.199
oa. I agree with that,
right, So when it comes to god,
403
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:46.920
we're not going to say obviously for
the film, as I suppose,
404
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:52.119
because I don't take this position,
but that all the formal properties are only
405
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:53.800
like a virgin these things. I'm
sure you know this here, Yeah,
406
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:58.400
of course, and we think that
that. So then hold on, so
407
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:02.639
how does it need to moveism?
Sorry, because it's not consistent to say
408
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.800
that the attributes are all identical and
identical to the essence, and that the
409
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.400
persons are also strictly identical to the
essence. But the persons are distinct amongst
410
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.920
themselves. I mean, have you
read any of the topics, any of
411
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.440
the discussion of this topic. Right, I've read. I've read a couple
412
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:22.400
of papers. I've read this sc
with theologia, I've read Aquinas Suma.
413
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.920
I've read a couple of papers.
You've read the Aquinas Suma. I'm saying,
414
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:29.360
have you read on the debate between
East and West on this topic?
415
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:31.320
Now, have you read a bunch
of of toll Oh? Yeah, typically
416
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:36.039
the East, of my opinion,
no disrespect. They typically just cry about
417
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.079
things that are not relevant. Okay, Well, let's let's talk about do
418
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:42.639
you think the Bible is relevant?
I think the Bible is relevant. I
419
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:45.599
think the Bibles against your position.
But oh okay, well let's talk about
420
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.920
that. So in Levitica, do
you think no, no, no,
421
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.920
no, no, Let's go to
that, because that's the key point.
422
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.559
Do you think do you think that
God's do you think God's glory is created?
423
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:58.519
Go to glory? Depends on what
you mean by glory and the way
424
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.000
that glory is the same way that
Jesus talks about sharing the Father's glory before
425
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.960
the foundation of the world. Right, So I would okay, so I
426
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:10.000
would say that God's glory is his
end, which is identical to himself,
427
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:13.960
but in the way that he so
it's his essence, right, because all
428
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.079
the attributes are the divine essence.
Right? I mean, what would you
429
00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:19.719
even define glory as? I mean, you don't think this is used in
430
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:22.920
scripture. I would just say glory
is just like a manifestation of God's being.
431
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:28.360
Oh, exactly, and so God's
being his his essence right? Right?
432
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.159
Okay, So did God's glory i
ever appear in time and space?
433
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:37.039
Right? So God can distribute his
glory to creatures? At the second?
434
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.639
Did God's glory itself ever appear in
time and space? Right? So?
435
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.920
I just said it depends on what
you mean in the distribute God's the way
436
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:50.239
it's described in Leviticus nine. Right. Can you relax? I did God's
437
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.760
glory appear in time and space?
Relax? I can think? I am,
438
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:59.360
I'm relaxed. I want the answer. Okay, so the station of
439
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:05.159
his being can be moldly conferred to
creatures, and the glory is not a
440
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.000
creature. So you just made a
stupid mistake. Hold on, so you
441
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:12.119
worship creatures? Hold on, let
me finish. You just said it.
442
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.199
You just said, it's transferred to
a creature. So I said, it
443
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.679
can be communicated to creatures in a
Sicknay, So the glory of God in
444
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.320
Leviticus nine is a creature that they
worship. Not true, That's not what
445
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:28.719
I said, because you did just
say that. Agrees. Okay, you're
446
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.039
smart. Here we go, here
we go calling out my name. Let
447
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.360
me speak, right, yeah,
I'm calling out your name being respectful.
448
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.360
You need to let me speak.
Let's have a respect for this question.
449
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:42.559
But you already contradicted yourself, contradict
myself. Okay, sure, yeah,
450
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.599
you just said that it can be. You said the glory is God's essence,
451
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:47.519
and you're saying now it can be. It can be conveyed to a
452
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:52.599
creature. So the worship of a
creature as God's essence and God's glory being
453
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:58.920
identical with his existence. No,
okay, so God existed prior to his
454
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:04.599
existence. No, God always had
a distinction between his essence and his energies.
455
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:09.599
He always transmitted and communicated his glory
amongst the persons from all eternity.
456
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:15.159
And it's not his ence. His
existence is not identified as as beak.
457
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:17.519
He didn't exist. How did that
happen? How did what happened? He's
458
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:22.840
always he's always shared that glory,
as Jesus himself says. Okay, when
459
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.119
you say he shared that, your
presupposing the thing in question, his existence.
460
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:30.079
Does Jesus say that in John Seventhohn
was Jesus an eternal person? No?
461
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:32.519
No, no, no, stop
refer scripture? Ah, exactly right.
462
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.719
Stop referring to scripture because your position
actually is totally divorced from divine revelation.
463
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:43.039
Did God's glory? Did God's glory
appear in Leviticus nine? Okay,
464
00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:45.559
stop referring to scripture? Notice how
the Thomas operates. Everybody, the whole
465
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:51.920
audience can see. Stop referring to
scripture. You are stop referring to scriptures?
466
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:53.480
Can you actually? Here we go? So now he has to go
467
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:59.039
to personal attacks. I stick to
the scriptures, he says. Stop referring
468
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:01.400
to scriptures. Sounds like a flipping
You sound like crimes he or bro.
469
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:06.639
Just relax, so invit. Now
let's go to Leviticus nine. Explain to
470
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.280
me how how the God, the
glory of God is worshiped than Olyticus?
471
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:15.000
If God existence, if his existence
is not identified as as being, but
472
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:17.159
he communicates something to his existence.
How are you going to see, not
473
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:22.480
to his existence, dummy to another
person, not to his existence to another
474
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:25.400
person. So you just just listen. The whole thing is assuming to me,
475
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:30.599
your metaphysics is wrong. Your metaphysics
is wrong. Why are we show
476
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:34.840
over each other? Because all of
your arguments are coming from your metaphysical assumptions,
477
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.920
and I'm saying that they're wrong.
Okay, you speak over people when
478
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:39.719
you know to have a good point. You don't have a good points because
479
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:45.400
you're you're avoiding. You're avoiding the
points, all right, So let me
480
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:47.840
speak that talk about Leviticus nine.
That's my argument. If you're confident,
481
00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:51.639
let me speak. Would you let
me speak? If you're going to address
482
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.400
Leviticus nine? Thank you? No? No, So you want a dress
483
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:58.920
scripture? So once again the others
he wanted to dress scripture Leviticus nine,
484
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:01.039
Or you're gone? Are you gonna? You're running away from something, you're
485
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:06.079
deflecting from my argument. You're running
from the Bible. You're running from divine
486
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:10.679
revelations. I'm running. You're saying, don't quote scripture at me. Scriptures
487
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:15.719
don't prove that God's existence is created. No, I don't believe that.
488
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:17.400
So now you're that's a strong man. You know, I'm not arguing God's
489
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:22.039
existence is cort So something that is
not God is uncreated entirely speaking, So
490
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.760
something that's not it's called the glory
of God that appeared that they all worshiped.
491
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:34.119
Have you read leveticas? Do you
know what? Okay, divine nature
492
00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:38.360
is uncreated and something that's not identified
the divine natures uncreated. Right, that's
493
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:43.320
called the essence energy stinction. Right, that's our position. I'm glad you
494
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:45.039
think it's funny. And that' why
you don't want to go to scripture.
495
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.639
So what happened in Leviticus nine?
What's what's? What are they worshiping in
496
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:53.039
Lemticus nine? You can't conceptually unless
we're saying you can't go to these scriptures.
497
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:57.559
Go, don't go to these scriptures. Bro, don't quote the Bible.
498
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:04.679
Let me tell me what's happening in
Leviticus nine? This guy, he
499
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:13.320
mean no God, no answer.
How does it crease your point? The
500
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.159
glory of God is appearing in time
and space. It's a common argument in
501
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:21.239
all Orthodox theology. So they're worshiping
it. It's not a creature you can't
502
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:25.719
worship creatures. It's a simple argument. So when go the people and he
503
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.559
appeared to creatures to the defects he's
made, yes or no? Did he?
504
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:35.519
What can he appear to creatures through
the effects that he is? Me
505
00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:39.639
it's not a created effect. It's
called the glory of God. And you
506
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:44.320
please answer this question. It is
not a creator that you can't worship creatures.
507
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:46.039
Can you worship creatures? All right? So here we go, So
508
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:50.960
all he does the same money,
he won't answer the questions. Answer no,
509
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.679
I'm answering your question by saying that
the text refute you. The Glory
510
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:58.599
of God appears in time and space
and they worship it. And you're saying,
511
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:15.079
but that that that I that is
a qua? Is it a creature?
512
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:19.360
Can you actually be serious to me? Is it a creature? No?
513
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:22.519
I think you're I think I think
it's funny or me? All right,
514
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:25.599
just relax, I'm not I'm having
fun I don't know anything. I
515
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:30.079
need to relax. Keep your composure
all right, keep your composion all right.
516
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:37.440
When good, when God chooses to
communicate to himself in creature to creatures,
517
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.400
can he do so through the effects
that he's made just a simple question.
518
00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:44.920
He can, but this is clearly
not a creative effect. It's called
519
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.199
the glory of God. Have you
ever had an argument with a Muslim on
520
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:52.119
Ye? Right, so you can. But that's not what's happening in this
521
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:53.840
passage that has no relevancy of this
pastor. Okay, okay, okay,
522
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:59.519
Now tell me why in that passage
you take it to be that God,
523
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:04.440
that God's infinite essence. Where is
one of his infinite essential attributes? And
524
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:07.960
you want to say that because it's
called the manifestation of his glory in time
525
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:13.679
and space? Okay, the manifestation, Yeah, Christ, glory is not
526
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:15.880
a creature. You can't worship creatures. Why do I have to take you
527
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:20.679
because you're not arguing against that.
You're just restating a bunch of stuff about
528
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:22.719
the passage. What's the argument against
is you're saying it's not a creature.
529
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:28.119
I believe that God's infinite attributes are
really identical with essence. I know that
530
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.119
we all know the Thomas possession in
any way, all right, so in
531
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:37.000
any way that the Bible refers to
God communicating, So you're metaphysics is wrong
532
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:38.599
because it goes against the scripture.
That's why you don't want to go to
533
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:42.400
the Bible. That's what you said, don't put the Bible that scripture.
534
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:45.519
It's one thing for it to go
against scripture, and one thing for it
535
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:47.719
to go against your meaning or your
interpretation of scripture. Okay, well tell
536
00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:51.760
me how it is you can worship
a creature. You sound Protestant. You
537
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:54.559
need a right, So going to
divine revelation is Protestant? Yes, exactly?
538
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:58.800
Did you realize? So you want
to tell you what's really going on
539
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.599
is that you're You're metaphysics is wrong
because it's it's the wrong starting point.
540
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:07.000
Look, I'm trying to have a
respectful conversation with you. You can keep
541
00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:12.679
saying that, but you're just deflecting
because your argument is that I'm a Protestant
542
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:15.400
now by going to the scriptures when
the scriptures clearly say over you do not
543
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:22.519
understand it's the same it's the same
part problem in the incarnation about Okay,
544
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:27.079
yeah, so I'm talking about something
that's so you're acting like this is not
545
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:32.320
an actual debate. You don't think
this is an actual debate philosophically, are
546
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:36.880
you conceiving that you cannot defend the
philosophically that you have to refer. So
547
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:42.280
this is the point your my argument
is that your philosophical position is wrong.
548
00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:46.960
How do you how do you deal
with that? Phil your your philosophy is
549
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:52.280
wrong? Is my argument? Can
I can defend it because I have the
550
00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:57.119
right starting point, which is divine
revelation? Yes, well that it just
551
00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:00.039
assumes that your philosophy is correct.
Let's do that. You want let's go
552
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.880
to philosophy. You want to do
that, Yes, let's go to philosophy.
553
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:07.199
I'm saying, let's go to that. Can you do it? I'm
554
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.280
saying, yes, let's go to
that. All right, cool, Now,
555
00:51:09.559 --> 00:51:15.639
when you have meta physical attributes?
Okay, how do you know this?
556
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:17.719
How do you know that? Let's
go, let's go to philosophy.
557
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:22.639
How do you know that that's the
case? You just to let's go to
558
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:25.280
philosophy. I want to know how
you know these propositions that you're saying are
559
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:35.039
the case you just told me,
I just told you. Unless you're reason
560
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.840
Oh well, that's my point.
I think your position, if it was
561
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:42.960
consistent, would lead to skepticism.
Yeah, because because you put your metaphysical
562
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.800
cart before your episomic course, you
wanted to go to philosophy. So if
563
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:47.760
you listen, if you don't shut
up, I'm going to boot you.
564
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:51.840
Just shut up, Just shut up. No, you're on my stream.
565
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:55.000
You don't tell me what they No, you don't talk to me like that.
566
00:51:55.039 --> 00:52:00.920
You're on my stream. Have some
respect, all right? I said,
567
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.000
I'm gonna boot you if you don't
shut up. You're not. I'm
568
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.639
not. I'm I'm I'm on my
strength to me because you can't respond to
569
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:09.920
my No, I want to go
to philosophy. Do you hear me?
570
00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:13.400
Are you gonna kick me? Because
of insecure? I want to go to
571
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:16.039
philosophy? All right? So stick
on the topic at hand, and the
572
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:21.519
topic the topic is about your metaphysics. I don't believe your metaphysics. You
573
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.960
explain to me how good is being? Why should I accept your idea of
574
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:30.400
being? In metaphysics? About God? I'm not saying, just explain it
575
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.840
to me. I want to know. I have a different starting point for
576
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:37.039
what's possible and what God can do. It's called divine revelation. You don't
577
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:40.360
want to go there's final lests go
to philosophy. So why should are you
578
00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:44.559
a self? Do you believe in
self evident truths. No, do you
579
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:47.280
believe in self evident truths? You
said, you said God has being,
580
00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:52.599
but God's being I have a different
paradigm for you. You said God has
581
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:55.559
being, but God's being is not
his existence? Correct? For us,
582
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:59.920
God's being is an energy. So
I have a different position from you.
583
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.840
So let's go to Let's go to
philosophy. You have a different position.
584
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.880
Explain the position. I'm not No, it's not I'm not here to explain
585
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:08.280
the position to you. You came
to debate, let's have a debate.
586
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:13.800
You said you want to go to
philosophy. Don't you want an explanation for
587
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.360
the position? Yeah? The Vine
revelation says that God's God's God can appear
588
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:22.320
in time and space. God can, So do you understand that you you
589
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.760
destroy the incarnation with your stupid position. You need to extract, You need
590
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:30.840
to you need to expassionate your positions
that I can understand in order for me
591
00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:36.159
to know divine revelation is my starting
point, and it tells me that God
592
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:40.320
can appear in time and space.
You're adding metaphysical like understandings to interpretation of
593
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:47.599
description and you're not doing that.
Tonism is a pre subposition metaphysics. Yeah,
594
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:51.280
we all do that. So what
So you're just stating what everyone knows.
595
00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:54.480
So what? Okay, we have
Christians that are genuinely trying to listen
596
00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:58.960
to our conversation. So can we
still start the tone policing the ad Enough
597
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:00.519
of your tone policing. It's not
working for anybody, but you're but you're
598
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.760
a small band of idiots. So
do you want to talk about epistemology or
599
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.840
not? Small? Bro? Please? Just do you want everybody saying that
600
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:12.519
you're crash dude? The whole the
whole chats laughing going to are you going
601
00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:15.679
to explain how good with the old
chats laughing? Everyone's laughing at you?
602
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:22.719
No or not? Not? Bro, take a breath. You embarrass yourself
603
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:29.480
by saying courting descriptures. Court descriptures
up, let's go. You're just a
604
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:32.119
fourty year old fat races. I
look at that. I'm a fat racist.
605
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.239
Look at the meltdown. The Thomas
can't do anything, so I do
606
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.440
a few jokes about his about his
roster voice, and he calls me a
607
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:44.840
fat racist. I'm not even fat. What are you talking about? Meltdown?
608
00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:49.119
That you should check? Look,
Oh I'm fat and good one.
609
00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:52.440
Yeah, did the fourth graders give
you that your position by reason? Yes
610
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.719
or no? Uh? And that's
why it goes to a pistemology, goofus,
611
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:01.559
That's why it goes to epistemology.
The dude literally can't pronounce his words,
612
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:07.000
and he says stop starting still storing
a coup A couple knocks me words.
613
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:09.519
But you still read and your frought
weird. I bet you have.
614
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:22.000
It is embarrassing for you. Ah, there we go. That's what I
615
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.199
reject. That's the essence of the
point. That's what I've been trying to
616
00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:28.840
get you debate the whole time.
It is that's what I'm arguing. That's
617
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:35.760
the essence of my argument. Yeah, I reject that position because it's not
618
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:38.800
true. You understand it's it's a
contradiction. You see, it's a contradiction.
619
00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:45.559
Let's have that debate. Hold on, let me speak. You said
620
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:50.960
that never makes sense? Thomiss,
He calls it Thomists. Oh my gosh,
621
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:59.199
what's you have a perfect accent?
You are your mind? Your mind?
622
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.360
You got the pigeon? Do you
got the pigeon? Braw child?
623
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.960
Because you want yeah, you get
what you deserve. You won't deal with
624
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:10.559
the topic. Look at profile pictures. This is what he goes to?
625
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.840
Your mind? Oh your mind?
What your what? They got down down
626
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:22.400
to pigeon? You speak the pug
and you want to have the debate now
627
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:36.119
that you melt it down, you
fat bro. You know there's over here
628
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:43.119
crying. It's Jerry Curls dripping because
he's crying. Do you want to talk
629
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:46.480
Let's talk about why? Let's talk
about a pistemology. Ready you ready to
630
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:51.559
talk about a pistemology? Are you
ready to talk about a pistemology? You're
631
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:54.039
the one that called me fat.
I just made fun of your voice.
632
00:56:55.199 --> 00:57:00.440
Do you want to talk about a
pistemology? Bro? Grow up? Do
633
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:04.320
you so you don't want to talk
about a pistemology? Question? How is
634
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.280
that is? No? You already
brought up metaphysics and epistemology. Let's talk
635
00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:12.760
about that. We already so you're
not going to do it. So you're
636
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:15.000
not going to go Let's move on
to the question you want it? He
637
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:19.280
won't do it? Deal with the
actual argument. Do we have any actual
638
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:27.119
Roman Catholics? Here we go?
You fat bruel, you fat, fat
639
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:30.079
racist. That's all that they have
to go through. Yeah, really fat,
640
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:45.159
super fat? You have fat?
Risk is brawan go their breath alivee
641
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:53.599
Eric, I'm mute, Eric,
you're here? You want to the debate?
642
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:58.559
I'm mute. Yes, yes,
hello, Hello, I'm sorry.
643
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:08.039
I'm sorry. I didn't know this
you. Yeah, let's go. So,
644
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:15.119
So I don't understand. I mean, I mean, how how how
645
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:23.320
do you do you have an argument? Come on? Yeah? Oh yeah,
646
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:29.199
yeah, our lord's word to see
what does that mean? What does
647
00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:31.719
that mean? That's your argument?
So we're here talking for an hour about
648
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:37.960
tomism and divine energies and the competitions
and you don't want to argue Matthew sixteen,
649
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:44.039
Yeah, because it comes down to
that. But I don't come down
650
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.400
to that. That's the lord to
your arguments. Bro. Yeah, you
651
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:52.280
can make fun of of of How
did you did? You barely get on?
652
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:57.159
Bro? What's up? Fool?
I think you got your top button
653
00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:00.960
a little too tight. Bro,
there's not enough going through your brain.
654
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:07.039
Brothers barely getting there? Oh my
god, here we go. Why do
655
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:09.280
they have to repeat It's like they
have to repeat my name. I don't
656
00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:14.920
get it. Do you want to
have a discussion or not? You want
657
00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:19.360
to? Okay? So you wanted
tobate Matthew sixteen? What happens? You
658
00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.079
want to be that? What are
you? What are you Hispanic? Or
659
00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:31.800
I can't tell? Is that what
it is? Are you Muslim? Okay?
660
00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:39.880
So you wanted to make Matthews and
you hear me, Hey, bro,
661
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:45.800
you gotta put some more, put
some more salts inside. Hello,
662
00:59:52.599 --> 01:00:02.719
h try to come out, come
back out and come back in. Where
663
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:13.519
are the Roman Catholics at stopped quoting
these scripts? I mean, mind,
664
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:16.920
by the way, please only quote
them ifty in the pigeon. Stop quoting
665
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:23.519
the scripts. I've been what's up? What's up? All right? So
666
01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:28.000
what we're speaking about? Because I
just joined recently? So what you want
667
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:37.320
a debate about? Considering Thomism Thomas? Well, I mean today's whole topic
668
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:40.960
was about anything relating to like cappit
Osians and trendy to your essen center distinction.
669
01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:49.920
But we can talk about the uh
do you worship creatures? I do
670
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:52.800
not worship creatures? Okay? And
do you mean like as and I worshiped
671
01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:58.639
the like natural world? No?
No? No? Like? Uh no?
672
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:02.840
Like For example, if God's glory
appears in time and space and the
673
01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:07.519
Israelites worship that and call it God. How is that possible on a Thomas
674
01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:19.679
position. I'm not at Thomas myself, but from what I think Thomas believe
675
01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:23.400
in, I think that would consider
that he controls the entire universe, he
676
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:30.280
reigns over the entire universe, and
that his presence affects the natural world.
677
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:32.880
Okay, So what does Levitic's nine
mean when it says that the glory of
678
01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:37.880
God appeared in time and space,
the divine energy and the divine fire appeared
679
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:52.639
in the Israelites worship and call him
God Hello? Could you repe that?
680
01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:58.199
My min Aaron lifted up his hands
towards the people and blessed him. And
681
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.960
he came down from the sin offering
and the burnt off bringing the peace offering.
682
01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:04.239
Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle
and came and blessed the people.
683
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:07.320
Then the glory of God appeared to
all the people, and fire came out
684
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:10.920
from before him. When all the
people saw it, they shouted and fell
685
01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:15.679
on their faces. How is the
glory of God, which is not created,
686
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:21.280
appearing in time and space to all
of Israel and being worshiped when you
687
01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:30.119
don't worship creatures. So the glory
of God appearing like that is considered a
688
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:35.440
creature. No, how could it
be. You just said you don't believe
689
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.400
in worshiping creatures and God's glories,
not creating that is not a creature at
690
01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:45.719
though. Exactly, So it's not
God's essence, right, No, it
691
01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:52.800
is not. Okay, So what
is it? All? Right? T
692
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:57.119
Y? You got me there?
I actually don't know exactly. That's why
693
01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:20.880
there's an essence iner distinction exactly.
Eric, gonna try again. I'm mute.
694
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:28.119
Were cooking DC tall mess far breakfiles. We're cooking and stripping the tormos
695
01:03:28.159 --> 01:03:34.760
down for de break fire. You
are fight by the way, Eric,
696
01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:37.800
I'm mute. Man, we eating
torm ass fall breakfast, said dare I,
697
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:45.199
Like yeah, God, y'all remember
back in the day, we used
698
01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:47.639
to have congo quinas that would call
in and he whispered out like that.
699
01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:55.360
I wonder if that was congo quinas, remember him? Eric, what's up?
700
01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:04.320
You're here? I'm mute, h
what's some more saults inside of the
701
01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:14.280
morn bro? It ain't working?
Eric meant they broed. It needs at
702
01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:17.000
least like three or four course more
more assaults inside of the motem and then
703
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:26.519
maybe the word bro Eric, bro
what's up? I mean, there's little
704
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:48.559
Torreso. What's up? Eric?
What's up? Man? It's like Thomas
705
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:57.599
are, like, don't they They
act like they're women's saints that scream and
706
01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:05.360
cry and cut themselves, like freaking
Margaret Mary alec Coque. There's like five
707
01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:10.760
or six trads defending that as like
that's really based in trying to imagine defending
708
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:15.800
self harm and self mutilation as based
in trad. This is idiotic. These
709
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:18.079
people are I think these people are, Like I'm starting more and more to
710
01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:23.920
think that these are mentally unstable people
and that you just can't interact with these
711
01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:29.760
people because they won't do anything related
to the actual topic. They'll deflect into
712
01:05:29.800 --> 01:05:40.639
a million different things and then play
victim and whine and cry. Go ahead,
713
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:48.400
hey, Jay, So I was
just gonna ask, like lists the
714
01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:54.679
Wagner thing, and we interacted a
little bit on Twitter, and I think
715
01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:59.320
you answer my question. But what
I see the relations of all positions being
716
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:04.519
is like the dietic thing that you're
objecting to is just when you're talking about
717
01:06:04.599 --> 01:06:10.639
two persons, and I don't necessarily
see an issue with that unless you're reducing
718
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:14.920
it strictly to it being a diet, which isn't that kind of your objection
719
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:18.760
that you're seeing it's a diet.
Well, relations of opposition would go along
720
01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:24.000
with in the in the Augustinian sense, goes along with dialectics. And so
721
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:28.760
if you begin your Trinitarian theology with
the essence, as Augustine tends to do.
722
01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:33.280
No, I'm not saying he never
mentions the role of the Father as
723
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.719
the cause. He does talk about
that in the Trinity, but the locus
724
01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:42.599
of the focus is on the divine
essence, and he starts with a Plutonian
725
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:49.480
definition of what simplicity is. That
then causes these challenges and these odd approaches
726
01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:54.559
to trying to make distinctions within that
absolutely simple essence. And one of those
727
01:06:54.599 --> 01:06:58.719
would be to say that and he
does a lot of these different speculations,
728
01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.559
and on the Trinity, one of
them is he says we could maybe distinguish
729
01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:05.960
him by saying that one is not
the other two. Father's not the son,
730
01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:09.159
not the spirit. Spirit is not
the Father, not the son.
731
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:13.239
Right. But the problem with that
is that that's it doesn't tell us anything
732
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.880
because all three of them share this
kind of vague property of being not the
733
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:19.440
other two. So it doesn't do
anything to tell us who the persons are.
734
01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:25.760
The roots problem of this whole thing
is when a Quinas says persona at
735
01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:30.360
rolatio person is relation. So the
Roman Catholics, because of their advince simplicity
736
01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:35.159
position, literally think that the persons
are the relations. But a relation is
737
01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:39.960
a predicate, not a subject.
Remember subject predicate, right, So a
738
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:44.360
relation is something that a subject has. For example, I am the son
739
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:47.159
of my father, Right, that's
a relation that I possess. So I
740
01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:53.320
possess a lot of relations, but
none of those relations are who I am.
741
01:07:53.800 --> 01:08:00.960
They're what I have there, their
attributes or their predicates. Jay is
742
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:05.239
five a bunch of these attributes,
So it will never really so it doesn't
743
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:13.000
actually tell us between the persons though, like the father, because I see
744
01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:16.039
I hear a lot of the same
kind of language being used. So do
745
01:08:16.119 --> 01:08:21.840
you reject that identifying the father as
the father in relation to the son like
746
01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:25.920
that. No, it's true,
it's it's true. It's just that it's
747
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:30.840
just that the relation is not reducible
to the person. The father is the
748
01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:34.880
father and his hypostatic park marker or
property is to be the cause. So
749
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:39.159
you can't say like it is equal
to the relation. And that's kind of
750
01:08:39.560 --> 01:08:46.720
that's the objection. And there again
remember remember Aquinas's famous quote is persona at
751
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:53.600
rolatio person is relation. And if
you read Losky, he has a whole
752
01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:57.199
critique of this. He says,
it makes absolutely no sense to call a
753
01:08:57.239 --> 01:09:00.439
person a relation, because a person
is a subject a relation as a predicate.
754
01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:03.760
You have a real force of this
argument here. I think you've like,
755
01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:08.159
it makes so much sense. It's
just too bad that it can't get
756
01:09:08.199 --> 01:09:12.359
to this point. I don't they're
not interested in they don't care. They
757
01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:16.359
just want to score points and find
a gotcha and so okay, okay,
758
01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:19.119
yeah. And then lastly, so
like this is my last question, but
759
01:09:19.359 --> 01:09:26.119
when you talk about God, can
you just refer to the nature generally as
760
01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:30.119
God? And I know bo Brandson's
doctor bou Brandston talks about God being the
761
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:35.000
father. But I think even I
don't want to say no, there's nothing
762
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:40.800
wrong. There's not. I mean
doctor Branson himself talks in many places and
763
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:44.319
we've talked about it as well.
The word God is not a like it
764
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:47.600
picks out different things. Yeah,
God can pick out the divine nature,
765
01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:51.359
can pick out the divine persons and
pick out the divine energy, and it
766
01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:59.399
can pick out human and angel messengers. Okay, so sure, yeah,
767
01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:01.920
I mean God has the nature and
when we worship, when we worship God,
768
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:04.600
listen, when we worship God,
we worship the whole God. So
769
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:10.359
yes, But the difference is that
we don't start with God as essence because
770
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:14.720
God is not revealed as essence.
He's revealed as I am, He the
771
01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:18.000
person of the Father. That's where
we start our theology. But then if
772
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:23.319
I was seeing this worshiping God the
Father, then I would when we say
773
01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.439
we worship God, I would think
it's incorrect to say we worship the nature
774
01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:30.560
because that seems to be well,
I don't know, maybe I have to
775
01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:33.119
think more about that, but yeah, we worship the nature because it exists
776
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:38.079
in the mode of the person that
has the nature. So oh, only
777
01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:41.560
in that sense, Okay, gotcha, gotcha? Okay, ship appreciate it.
778
01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:46.279
Sure, yeah, great question.
Remember too, the relation in the
779
01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:54.680
Kappadocians is relation of origin, and
even if you talk about contrarities like Basil
780
01:10:54.720 --> 01:11:00.560
did, it's still not arguing the
Augustinian position of relations of opposition within an
781
01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:04.840
absolutely simple essence. And the congar
article makes this point. Even though congar
782
01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:09.560
thinks that Augustin and the Cappadocians are
basically saying the same thing, which I
783
01:11:09.640 --> 01:11:14.680
don't agree with, he at least
admits in the article that there's differences of
784
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:19.640
approaches to the Trinity, and that's
not even that controversial what we're talking about.
785
01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:24.039
I mean, the Vatican clarification on
the Philly Oquay, not that long
786
01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:27.680
ago in the nineties or whatever,
admits this point too. It admits that
787
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:32.159
there's still tension between the Augustinian and
the Cappadocian approaches to the Triad. They're
788
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:42.319
different. One of those difference differences
relates to the fact that the Cappadocians are
789
01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:46.319
very clearly monarchical and they stress that
and they stress that the Father is the
790
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:50.279
sole cause. That's why Wagner spends
so much time trying to prove that there's
791
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:57.479
another cause in the Triad. And
that's why we had that whole talk with
792
01:11:57.560 --> 01:12:01.000
doctor Branson on this, because he
wrote his dissertation on this topic. That's
793
01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:11.479
why. So for those who want
to go deeper into the specifics of the
794
01:12:11.560 --> 01:12:19.680
camp of doc issue, which is
what this goes back to, it goes
795
01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:32.600
back to it's right here. On
distress discord is muda. I appreciate that.
796
01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:51.720
On demn stress discord is modda.
Mm hmmm, dude, you're taking
797
01:12:51.800 --> 01:13:00.199
the agnostic calls. Uh primarily was
talking about tumism. So does not really
798
01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:04.079
anything about agnosis as a mirror.
Do you want to do it now or
799
01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:08.720
you want to call into another time? I mean, is it quick or
800
01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:11.520
is it a question? Or what
are you wanting to do? Yeah,
801
01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:17.960
it's about pre sup Basically, do
you have any presuppositions you cut out?
802
01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:25.319
What? Oh? Sorry? Do
you have any pre sup presuppositions that don't
803
01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:31.399
have justifications? Well, I think
everybody's worldview bottoms out at some point where
804
01:13:31.399 --> 01:13:39.439
there's no justifications. That's why I
believe in paradigm level of circularity. So
805
01:13:39.760 --> 01:13:44.159
you do have some level of circularity
at the base layer of your life.
806
01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:48.760
I'm saying everybody does, okay,
because the only other option is some form
807
01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:53.319
of foundationalism or self evidence, and
I don't see how you can be consistent
808
01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:58.760
with that. So is it a
little bit of special pleading that you prefer
809
01:13:58.840 --> 01:14:02.399
yours over someone else's due to the
circularity happening? Now? It's not special
810
01:14:02.439 --> 01:14:10.760
pleading if my argument is that everybody
has circularity, right, but you prefer
811
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:15.479
yours over someone else's. It's not
a personal preference, it's a it's demonstratable
812
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:24.239
via the inconsistencies by the reduction reductio
in the other positions. But is it
813
01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:30.439
part of your reductio, the fact
that the other worldviews have circularity? No,
814
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:39.039
it's that they contradict. Every other
position contradicts itself. Yeah, at
815
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:42.319
a fundamental level when we flesh out
what their argument is. That's why it's
816
01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:45.840
a comparison of worldviews. Transcend augmentation
is a comparison of rival world views.
817
01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:50.800
So the fact that I say that
everybody at root relies on some paradigm level
818
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:55.720
circularity, that's not the problem,
because I said everybody has that problem that
819
01:14:55.800 --> 01:14:58.880
position. So how would we argue
if that's the case. The only way
820
01:14:58.920 --> 01:15:01.960
to do it is to argue whether
the positions as a whole are coherent,
821
01:15:02.359 --> 01:15:10.319
whether they have grounding, or whether
they contradict on a fundamental level. Well,
822
01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:15.079
have you heard every worldview possible or
have you heard every worldview that is
823
01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:18.319
held on earth? No, it's
not necessary because every worldview of necessity has
824
01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:21.479
a few basic starting points that they
have to begin with, and those starting
825
01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:29.680
points then determine the rest of the
system. Okay, so like a materialist
826
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:33.680
or an empiricist, what is the
contradiction. Well, they're not able to
827
01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:39.239
give an account for the argumentation that
they use as rank materialists, so they
828
01:15:39.279 --> 01:15:43.760
have to utilize things that are impossible
on a materialist perspective, such as laws
829
01:15:43.760 --> 01:15:48.439
of logic, universals, mathematical entities
meaning concept So at some point don't you
830
01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:54.840
reach a point where you cannot give
an accountability or a justification. Yes,
831
01:15:54.920 --> 01:16:00.720
Hence why I said all worldviews at
a paradigm level are circular. Right,
832
01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:06.920
But you just stated that empiricist materialists
have this contradiction. But then you just
833
01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:11.039
admitted that you have your own.
Yeah, paradigm level circularity is not the
834
01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:15.640
same thing as a contradiction, two
different things. So then what's this what's
835
01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:25.359
the paradigm level contradictions for empiricists,
Well, empiricism can't justify empiricism's presupposition that
836
01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:28.520
all knowledge comes through sense data.
You can't find incense data the truth or
837
01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:31.319
the proposition that all knowledge comes their
sensitive So that's just saying that they have
838
01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:36.800
a presupposition. No, it's a
contradiction. The difference. It is a
839
01:16:36.840 --> 01:16:42.800
contradiction. All knowledge comes Listen,
all knowledge comes through sense data. That's
840
01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:47.039
a proposition, that's the starting point
for all empiricism. That proposition is not
841
01:16:47.159 --> 01:16:54.880
found in sense data. That's a
contradiction. That's not circularity. Let me
842
01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:58.399
get Let me give you an example
of circularity. Right, Like I can't
843
01:16:58.520 --> 01:17:02.399
use work, I can't define words
without using words. So in linguistic philosophy,
844
01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:06.479
that's kind of an obvious circularity.
But we wouldn't say we wouldn't say
845
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:15.279
that that's a contradiction, whereas the
empiricist argument is a contradiction. And explain
846
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:23.079
one more time, Sorry, Why
is that a contradiction that our information and
847
01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:30.039
data comes from our experience? No, the claim all knowledge comes through sense
848
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:33.840
data itself is not found in sense
data. That's the contradiction. If it's
849
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:41.560
human knowledge, it won't matter.
So listen the proposition. The truth of
850
01:17:41.600 --> 01:17:45.079
the proposition itself is not found in
sense data. So I could say all
851
01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:51.439
humans are mammals and I don't need
to study every human being to understand that.
852
01:17:51.760 --> 01:17:56.800
Yeah, but that's an analytic truth. That's an analytic truth, So
853
01:17:56.840 --> 01:18:00.199
that doesn't This is the analytics synthetic
to say that doesn't tell you anything.
854
01:18:00.239 --> 01:18:05.359
That's why it's not relevant. And
by the way, analytic truths are not
855
01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:13.279
empirical truths. I still don't understand
why human knowledge cannot be gained through empiricism.
856
01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:16.800
You're not justified in making the claim
on empirical grounds. The point,
857
01:18:16.880 --> 01:18:20.479
on a ground level, you're not
justified for your beliefs. Again, you're
858
01:18:20.520 --> 01:18:27.960
confusing circularity with a contradiction. That's
two different things. You're you were confusing
859
01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:31.239
and actually because you're saying my circularity
is empiricism. But then when I point
860
01:18:31.239 --> 01:18:35.159
out that at some point you have
that problem, so you think circularity and
861
01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:39.239
contradictions are the same thing. It's
okay, good job, I'm saying you
862
01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:44.840
are because you're saying empiricism ultimate.
First, before we proceed the argument,
863
01:18:45.039 --> 01:18:50.039
Okay, I think what you said
was that empiricism. Well, first of
864
01:18:50.079 --> 01:18:54.199
all, you got it wrong that
you said all knowledge. I think empiricism
865
01:18:54.199 --> 01:18:58.560
would be human knowledge. So hold
on, is there other knowledge than human?
866
01:18:58.560 --> 01:19:01.479
Hold on and your is there other
knowledge? The human knowledge? There's
867
01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:08.960
only human knowledge right now. There
is knowledge from like other animals and stuff
868
01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:11.680
like that, but knowledge from other
animals how do you know that as an
869
01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:18.039
empiricist? Oh well, as an
all right, this is you don't even
870
01:19:18.039 --> 01:19:29.039
get as dude, We're done.
I'm looking for the people who want to
871
01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:35.800
discuss Tomism, Roman, Catholicism,
Papacy, Islam, Protestantism. It's not
872
01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:43.399
it's always it's not TAG Day,
but whatever. Actually they're all related.
873
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.479
So maybe it should be tag day
because as we tried to do with congo
874
01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:51.439
Quinas there, we couldn't get him
to go into epistemology. What's up you
875
01:19:51.439 --> 01:19:57.319
hear me? Yeah, okay,
so I do have a Catholic question.
876
01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:04.279
So I think it was yesterday whenever
your last dream was you mentioned Stigmata and
877
01:20:05.479 --> 01:20:08.479
I was looking. I was looking. I was doing a little bit,
878
01:20:08.520 --> 01:20:13.600
a little bit of internet research,
and I found this guy before Francis of
879
01:20:13.640 --> 01:20:18.960
ASSISI named as Bert, who apparently
died in six ninety five. Have you
880
01:20:19.039 --> 01:20:26.840
heard of him? No? I
found it was like a Western right thing.
881
01:20:26.880 --> 01:20:30.279
Apparently calls him a saint. But
I don't care what Western right people
882
01:20:30.319 --> 01:20:35.159
say. They're they're usually wrong.
So well, it is before the schism.
883
01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:38.119
So I was just wondering if you
knew that. Well, I mean
884
01:20:38.159 --> 01:20:41.039
again, I don't I don't have
the Roman Catholic position that I have to
885
01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:45.720
accept all the stories about you know
this or that legend of this or that
886
01:20:45.119 --> 01:20:49.760
ambiguous saint or whatever. Oh okay, well, I just wanted to bring
887
01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:55.039
that up, that there was an
account of him. Is after he died,
888
01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:59.439
they found stigmata on his Well,
how do we know that that's the
889
01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:02.840
same thing as the living stigmata?
Yeah? And that's the other thing is
890
01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:10.479
that it's not clear what it meant. Maybe maybe grave robbers came and desiccated
891
01:21:10.520 --> 01:21:14.760
his body or something, and who
knows what that means. But again,
892
01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:17.720
I mean, there's just it's just
not it's it's foreign to the orthodox ethos
893
01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:26.239
that there's these you know, sort
of tortuous self harm approaches. I've not
894
01:21:26.319 --> 01:21:29.399
heard this. I've never heard of
it. So maybe somebody has some.
895
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:33.479
And I don't think fasting in this
kind of stuff is not the same thing
896
01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:41.439
as the idea of carving Jesus name
into my body and then using the blood
897
01:21:41.479 --> 01:21:49.520
to sign a blood packed and then
reopening the wounds, which she did.
898
01:21:49.560 --> 01:21:59.640
By the way, did you want
to say something for other dig No,
899
01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:03.079
it's came in case a topic came
up to Camment up. Yeah, please
900
01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:15.960
do, uh, please do if
you can. So, so let's go
901
01:22:16.039 --> 01:22:21.439
back to this because people are saying
you wouldn't debate the p Thomas, That's
902
01:22:21.439 --> 01:22:26.359
why you had to run to Morgaret
Muriel Cookeway. So you need to understand
903
01:22:26.359 --> 01:22:31.119
that this is not optional for you
as a Roman Catholic, not because Roman
904
01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:39.079
Catholicism dogmatizes everything in a in a
so called saint's life, but rather this
905
01:22:39.239 --> 01:22:45.279
is fundamental to the Sacred Heart devotion. So if you let's follow the logic
906
01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:48.119
of this. So let's say I'm
a Roman Catholic and I choose to not
907
01:22:48.239 --> 01:22:54.640
believe the divine revelations so called the
private revelations to Margaret Mary Ella Cocuay.
908
01:22:55.600 --> 01:23:00.960
Well, according to Deuteronomy thirteen Deuteronomy
eighteen, the book of Jared Amaya in
909
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:05.760
Galatians, won people who are false
in their visions and in their predictions and
910
01:23:05.800 --> 01:23:11.960
in their messages. If those visions
are false, then their false prophets.
911
01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:17.039
If Margaret, if I reject her
visions, that means she's logically a false
912
01:23:17.079 --> 01:23:24.680
prophet. If she's a false prophet, then the entire Sacred Heart devotion with
913
01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:30.359
which she's intimately bound up goes away. No Roman Catholic can consistently coherently toss
914
01:23:30.399 --> 01:23:35.359
out sacred heart stuff because it's bound
up with her. So all of this
915
01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:39.560
stuff hangs and falls together, but
they want to pretend that it doesn't hang
916
01:23:39.560 --> 01:23:43.079
your fault together, and again they
pick and choose. Now does it really
917
01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:45.520
make sense to see if I can
find that other guy's comment, because there's
918
01:23:45.520 --> 01:23:48.960
a guy who had a really great
comment. Not I mean, this was
919
01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:53.399
another follow up comment, It's not
the one I'm looking for. But notice
920
01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:58.920
that Margaret was upset by the fact
that the wounds that she cut into her
921
01:23:58.920 --> 01:24:02.439
breast were beginning to fail. She
then attempted to reopen the original wounds on
922
01:24:02.520 --> 01:24:08.560
more than one occasion using a knife. So this is self harm, which
923
01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:15.600
is wrong, it's demonic. But
since she failed to do this, she
924
01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:24.760
then burned herself. I mean,
who can't see that this is It's not
925
01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:32.319
holiness, it's mental problems and spiritual
problems. I'm trying to find this other
926
01:24:32.319 --> 01:24:41.039
guy's comment because somebody had a really
great comment about whether or not you could
927
01:24:41.079 --> 01:24:45.920
sort of dismiss these things. I
don't accept these things. And he found
928
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:50.880
a couple. Uh it cyclical references. Now, this is the famous ecstasy
929
01:24:50.880 --> 01:24:56.159
of Terresa, and everybody should know
it's supposed to be spiritual rg asm.
930
01:24:56.600 --> 01:25:00.800
That's what this means because and all
that romancathers saying, well, there's a
931
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:06.600
comparison between married people and the Church
in Christ. Yeah, not a sexual
932
01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:13.119
attraction for God. What's the analogy
is the union? The union of a
933
01:25:13.159 --> 01:25:17.239
married man and woman is analogous to
the union of the Church in Christ.
934
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:30.319
Doesn't mean that we have sexual desires
for God, you idiots. I'm trying
935
01:25:30.319 --> 01:25:33.880
to find that one. Guys,
I know where it is. Let me
936
01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:57.520
find this comment. This is really
good. Now, that's not it.
937
01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:15.600
Somebody found the freaking the people in
cyclicals that like establish all of this stuff
938
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:20.079
from her, And I can't find
that guy's comment because no, I haven't.
939
01:26:20.119 --> 01:26:26.359
I don't care about this is not
something I ever cared about. It's
940
01:26:26.359 --> 01:26:34.039
a Roman Catholic to go and read
the encyclicals on Mary Ala Coquay or whatever.
941
01:26:34.279 --> 01:26:41.039
I don't care about that. But
I can't find that guy's comment.
942
01:26:41.359 --> 01:26:46.079
So, but it was really good
because basically it shows that like, it's
943
01:26:46.119 --> 01:26:50.760
not a thing you get the you
don't get the right to like, Oh
944
01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:54.119
I don't. I don't accept that. That one I tossed out. I
945
01:26:54.159 --> 01:26:56.399
had another couple of Roman Catholics were
saying, oh, you don't have to
946
01:26:56.439 --> 01:26:59.319
accept the saints. Yeah, you
do. It's part of the magisterium.
947
01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:05.720
It's ordinary. I just hear him. Anyway. I can't find that guy's
948
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:10.560
comment, but you get the point. Like, the point is simply that
949
01:27:10.840 --> 01:27:15.239
the Papa seed did a whole thing
on this and said, yes, this
950
01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:24.840
is the ghostbusters in room. Rome
have approved Margaret Mary Alacoque. So imagine
951
01:27:24.840 --> 01:27:27.920
saying that, well, I'm a
Roman Catholic, but I just doubt like
952
01:27:28.119 --> 01:27:32.199
the most popular devotion next to Fatima
of the last you know, several hundred
953
01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:35.760
years. I mean, come on, who would take that seriously? But
954
01:27:35.800 --> 01:27:40.520
then again, I guess in Roman
Catholicism it's you make it into whatever you
955
01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:44.279
want it to be. So if
you wanted to be praying in mosques or
956
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:46.800
like Mother Teresa went and prayed in
the Buddhist temples, which she did,
957
01:27:48.359 --> 01:27:50.479
you can make it either one of
those. Make it whatever you want.
958
01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:55.479
You want to be a charismatic brother. The Roman Church, the papacy has
959
01:27:55.520 --> 01:28:00.479
accepted charismaticism. I mean that,
what does that tell you while it makes
960
01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:04.479
the point that we've been making that
these insane historyonic women were the charismatics of
961
01:28:04.520 --> 01:28:10.079
four hundred years ago. So it
makes perfect sense that Rome would accept and
962
01:28:10.159 --> 01:28:16.159
approve of this ridiculous movement of pentecostalism
and charismaticism from the papacy down by the
963
01:28:16.159 --> 01:28:23.760
way. All right, let's see
he's next. If that guy's listening,
964
01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:26.680
or if you're in here, the
guy who put up the encyclicals related to
965
01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:29.720
Sacred Heart, or if you guys
in the chat find it, feel free
966
01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:45.239
to link that and I'll pull it
up. Let's see, Sapphire got an
967
01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:50.560
mute? Hey, j Yeah,
this is a I have one question on
968
01:28:50.680 --> 01:28:57.479
topic of the Tonism debate you just
had. What could you I just think
969
01:28:57.520 --> 01:29:00.800
it'd be helpful if you were to
like cite all the all the book listed
970
01:29:00.319 --> 01:29:04.279
or made reference to for future reference. I don't know if that's like a
971
01:29:04.359 --> 01:29:08.920
huge ask, but no, in
relation to what energies or what what do
972
01:29:08.960 --> 01:29:13.000
you mean? Yeah, like the
relation of opposition or like where Augustus mentioned
973
01:29:13.000 --> 01:29:15.840
it because he tried to do this
gotcha at the end where he was like
974
01:29:15.880 --> 01:29:17.960
where did it? Gusta site us? Well? And I was actually correct
975
01:29:18.000 --> 01:29:21.039
because later on it's book five where
he starts to talk about this, and
976
01:29:21.119 --> 01:29:25.199
I said, it's around the beginning
of the second half where he starts to
977
01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:29.439
go into the trendy turning speculation.
So he booted me right then, So
978
01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:33.840
I know it's kind of but that
is correct. H con Guar talks about
979
01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:38.279
that. It's like book five and
afterwards where a Gustine goes into these things.
980
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:42.479
So keep in mind, like I
haven't read Date Trinitate, like I
981
01:29:42.560 --> 01:29:46.359
read it like fifteen years ago,
so I'm quit caring about all this stuff
982
01:29:46.359 --> 01:29:48.680
a long time ago. So but
I mean, I think it's pretty good
983
01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:51.359
to remember, like off the top
of my head, it's the second half
984
01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:56.920
of the of the treatise. But
but yeah, you could so I would
985
01:29:56.960 --> 01:30:01.119
say you could read the con Guar
essay where he he just laying out that
986
01:30:01.399 --> 01:30:05.159
it's not really that controversial, that
there's two different approaches between East and West
987
01:30:05.199 --> 01:30:14.880
on the Trinity, and that the
Augustinian Latin approach eventually tomistic approach originally eventually
988
01:30:14.920 --> 01:30:17.159
goes into a different direction in the
Middle Ages, when it's you know,
989
01:30:17.359 --> 01:30:24.239
heavily tonistic and focused on all of
the nuances of scholasticism, and the East
990
01:30:24.399 --> 01:30:28.840
didn't have that, which is why
it was pretty funny when I said you
991
01:30:28.920 --> 01:30:33.239
think that, I asked Wagners,
you think the that there's scolat that the
992
01:30:33.560 --> 01:30:39.319
Cappadocians are scholastics. He said,
yeah, they cite Aristotle. Okay,
993
01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:43.159
So apparently the only thing that's required
to be a scholastic is to cite Aristotle
994
01:30:43.279 --> 01:30:46.000
in his mind, so basically everyone
is a scholastic. So this is what
995
01:30:46.119 --> 01:30:49.439
Roman Catholics do, where they'll just
like bait and switch and like switch out
996
01:30:49.520 --> 01:30:54.039
the meanings of the words. And
so if you agree to something, they'll
997
01:30:54.039 --> 01:30:56.199
say, ah, yes, well
that word means this, So you agree
998
01:30:56.199 --> 01:31:00.479
with my position, you're reputed.
It's they love to play these words concept
999
01:31:00.640 --> 01:31:04.319
of games. That's why his whole
position was based on the assumption that relations
1000
01:31:04.439 --> 01:31:09.680
is identical to relations of opposition,
and so it's a word concept fallacy.
1001
01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:15.319
Think about what they do with logos, right logoss The logoss right Emj's logoss
1002
01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:19.960
is the same as every other philosopher
that uses the word logos, even though
1003
01:31:20.439 --> 01:31:26.239
no, I mean John One.
Logos comes from the Book of Proverbs,
1004
01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:29.239
the Hebrew wisdom tradition. It's the
second person, that godhead. It's not
1005
01:31:29.319 --> 01:31:34.920
the same thing as the logos of
Marcus Aurelius and anyway the Stoics, So
1006
01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:39.560
I mean Plato uses logos, Does
he mean Jesus? Of course not so
1007
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:44.319
obviously they're not identical. But they
play these bait and switch word games and
1008
01:31:44.479 --> 01:31:46.760
word concept fallacy. So that's why
he had to boot me, because he
1009
01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:53.319
sensed that the he that I might
have been right about him confusing relations with
1010
01:31:54.239 --> 01:31:58.279
this Augustinian notion of relations of opposition, which again is part of like the
1011
01:31:58.840 --> 01:32:02.680
absolute divine simplicity Philly oak Way to
be dispute, and it's just simply not
1012
01:32:02.920 --> 01:32:09.439
used as the focus of even if
they use the word contrarities or something like
1013
01:32:09.520 --> 01:32:13.840
that, like the focus of the
Cavin Docians is hyposthetic properties and relations of
1014
01:32:13.920 --> 01:32:17.680
origin. And like a lot of
these people would do well if they wanted
1015
01:32:17.760 --> 01:32:21.560
to really interact with a position to
read some of the books that deal with
1016
01:32:21.720 --> 01:32:26.359
the critiques. For example, I
would say you need to read Mystical Theology
1017
01:32:26.359 --> 01:32:29.600
the Eastern Church by Loski, I
mean every Roman Catholic should at least read
1018
01:32:29.680 --> 01:32:33.800
that to have a basic idea of
what our critiques are. Because Loski studied
1019
01:32:33.880 --> 01:32:41.079
under Jillson, right, the famous
Thomas, so he knows and understands Thumism
1020
01:32:41.239 --> 01:32:45.239
very well when he writes his critiques
of Tomism. And most of the arguments
1021
01:32:45.279 --> 01:32:48.760
that you hear me repeating and putting
out there, almost all of them are
1022
01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:51.880
in Lawsky, I mean, and
Lasky is not the only person to do
1023
01:32:53.000 --> 01:32:56.399
it. But you know, there
are also arguments that you find in you
1024
01:32:56.479 --> 01:33:00.159
know, Steinyloy. But really the
arguments go back to the cap Pi,
1025
01:33:00.159 --> 01:33:03.960
Dooceans, Maximus, and the Palamite
disputes and synods. So I would say,
1026
01:33:04.920 --> 01:33:09.319
read the Triads by Saint Gregor Palamus, Read a Debate with a barley
1027
01:33:09.479 --> 01:33:15.600
Might by Palomas. The uh Palomite
synods have all been translated now it's in
1028
01:33:15.680 --> 01:33:18.600
a book now by Norman Russell.
I would say, read those. You'll
1029
01:33:18.640 --> 01:33:21.039
see that all the arguments that are
made because, by the way, all
1030
01:33:21.079 --> 01:33:26.640
of most of I should say,
many of Palamas's letters are also translated in
1031
01:33:26.720 --> 01:33:29.159
that book. So it's also going
to be a key to let me just
1032
01:33:29.199 --> 01:33:31.680
get the books. Yeah, oh, thanks, man, I appreciate that
1033
01:33:39.079 --> 01:33:53.239
is your graduato stream. Oh no
way, okay, now I'm I'm not
1034
01:33:53.319 --> 01:33:55.600
at my other house, so I
don't have all my other all my other
1035
01:33:55.720 --> 01:33:59.560
books, so I don't have any
lost Key books here, and I don't
1036
01:33:59.560 --> 01:34:08.680
have any church Fathers here. But
so's there's really there's several really good books
1037
01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:11.880
on this, and I would say
start with Losky is kind of an introduction.
1038
01:34:12.479 --> 01:34:15.279
I would read Mystical Theology of the
Eastern Church. I would read Vision
1039
01:34:15.319 --> 01:34:20.000
of God by Lasky is really good. Dogmatic Theology by Losky also good.
1040
01:34:20.239 --> 01:34:27.279
But to get specifically into the energy's
debate debate with the Barlamite, which you
1041
01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:31.279
can get I think for still like
twenty bucks at s n u Y Press.
1042
01:34:32.960 --> 01:34:38.880
The Triads is a really good book
by Palamas. That's a more fleshed
1043
01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:45.640
out, longer argument on this topic
than the book that I'm talking about.
1044
01:34:45.680 --> 01:34:50.560
That's a translation of of Palamas's letters
and all the Palomite Synods. Is Norman
1045
01:34:50.640 --> 01:34:59.199
Russell's book Gregory Palomas has the cast
controversy in the debate with islam Documents relating
1046
01:34:59.239 --> 01:35:01.960
to Gregory palam Us, it's this
orange book right here. It's really good
1047
01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:10.279
if you really want to get really
technical. It's not an easy read,
1048
01:35:10.359 --> 01:35:14.800
but it is very relevant and proves
that Palamas, tadd the essence inter distinction,
1049
01:35:14.920 --> 01:35:19.520
and then it's say real essence interdistinction, and that's teekon Pino's dissertation.
1050
01:35:19.800 --> 01:35:25.560
Essence and Energies Being and Naming God
in Palamas is a good book. I
1051
01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:30.359
would read doctor Bradshaw's Aristotle East and
West, which is also very technical,
1052
01:35:30.399 --> 01:35:34.199
but it will get into disputing Eastern
and Western views of the Trinity and the
1053
01:35:34.319 --> 01:35:40.439
energies. Doctor Bradshaw's book that's a
bunch of his other essays that's collected together
1054
01:35:40.680 --> 01:35:44.600
called Divine Energies and Divine Action is
Necessary. It's a really good book.
1055
01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:50.199
And in the Church Fathers, I
would say you should start with something like
1056
01:35:50.359 --> 01:35:57.000
Basil on the Holy Spirit and Basil
against Unomius. Both of those make arguments
1057
01:35:57.039 --> 01:36:00.880
on the basis of the energies Basil
Letter two thirty four. And one of
1058
01:36:00.880 --> 01:36:09.359
the key things that's overlooked with the
dispute between East and West is Maximus's book
1059
01:36:09.399 --> 01:36:13.119
two hundred chapters. And the reason
I always recommend they never read this,
1060
01:36:13.479 --> 01:36:15.479
They never look at this. But
the reason I recommend the tuner chapters is
1061
01:36:15.560 --> 01:36:21.680
that the first five pages is Maximus
saying that there's two senses in which we
1062
01:36:21.760 --> 01:36:27.399
can call God pure act. There's
one sense that's valid and another sense that's
1063
01:36:27.479 --> 01:36:30.319
not valid. Roman Catholics do not
make this distinction. So when they call
1064
01:36:30.399 --> 01:36:34.359
God pure act, they mean it
in a reductionist sense that God is identical
1065
01:36:34.439 --> 01:36:41.119
to his essence as you heard congo
quitas and here's chirpin or earlier. That
1066
01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:44.720
doesn't make sense, right and right. So he says that we cannot call
1067
01:36:44.840 --> 01:36:47.439
God pure act in his essence.
Literally, the first five pages of the
1068
01:36:47.479 --> 01:36:51.800
two inter chapters makes this anti Tomistic
argument. He says we can call God
1069
01:36:54.359 --> 01:36:58.680
first act or pure actuality in contrast
to creation. And he says that you
1070
01:36:58.840 --> 01:37:02.640
have to have this do sense of
naming if we're going to use terms like
1071
01:37:03.079 --> 01:37:11.439
first actuality or pure act because if
you reduce God's the persons or God's essence
1072
01:37:11.520 --> 01:37:15.520
to pure act Maximus says, you'll
end up in the heresy of Aristotle.
1073
01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:19.159
You would be it. You would
believe in an internal dual principle of an
1074
01:37:19.199 --> 01:37:26.159
eternal actualizer actualizing something other than himself, which is why it's often again pertinent
1075
01:37:26.279 --> 01:37:30.119
to bring out the eternal creation challenge, the modal collapse challenge to the people
1076
01:37:30.119 --> 01:37:33.960
who argue this I sad. Yeah, Train more often relies on that sort
1077
01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:38.800
of thing too. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much all their arguments are are
1078
01:37:39.479 --> 01:37:42.920
this way. I have two more
questions. You should go pretty quick.
1079
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:45.920
But I would say also, another
really essential thing to read, which none
1080
01:37:45.920 --> 01:37:49.039
of them have actually read, because
they would they would know if they had
1081
01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:53.319
read this, is if you read
on the Orthodox Faith by John Damascus,
1082
01:37:55.199 --> 01:37:58.159
particularly book three, So you have
to make it all the way to book
1083
01:37:58.159 --> 01:38:00.279
three, which I don't think they
do. They just quote. Mind they'll
1084
01:38:00.279 --> 01:38:04.159
actually read these texts. But if
you read book three and when he gets
1085
01:38:04.199 --> 01:38:10.479
to section fifteen is where he takes
all the essence energy distinction arguments and applies
1086
01:38:10.520 --> 01:38:13.720
them to Christology. But now of
these people know anything about Christology, so
1087
01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:17.880
they wouldn't even understand why it's way
more there's way more clarity about the energies
1088
01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:23.720
in Christology. And if you understand
the essence energy distinction is the very thing
1089
01:38:23.800 --> 01:38:28.439
that Maximus argues in his disputation with
Pearis, Right, that's you could get
1090
01:38:28.439 --> 01:38:31.720
that book Disputation with Pearis by Saint
Maximus. I recommend that the whole book
1091
01:38:31.840 --> 01:38:35.640
is arguing the distinction between essence and
energy, both in God and in Man.
1092
01:38:38.079 --> 01:38:40.359
And that's why there's two wills and
two energies in Christ. So it's
1093
01:38:40.399 --> 01:38:44.000
the very way he refutes Pearis.
So, yes, it has to be
1094
01:38:44.119 --> 01:38:46.560
a real, real there have to
be really different, and that's why John
1095
01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:49.960
Vascus says they're really different. And
then they want to haggle over the terms.
1096
01:38:50.000 --> 01:38:53.800
What was it mean to be really
different? Are you saying it's parts?
1097
01:38:54.600 --> 01:38:57.119
No, it's not parts, No
more than the Trinity is parts.
1098
01:38:58.680 --> 01:39:01.439
So let's look at fifteen and you'll
notice right here at book three, section
1099
01:39:01.560 --> 01:39:10.560
fifteen, what does John Damascus start
this whole passage with concerning the energies and
1100
01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:15.720
our Lord Jesus Christ. If he
equates and reduces the energies to the essence,
1101
01:39:15.319 --> 01:39:17.960
all of these arguments fall apart and
none of them make any sense.
1102
01:39:18.000 --> 01:39:21.600
It's as stupid the Roman Catholics.
Then they think you're stupid. They want
1103
01:39:21.640 --> 01:39:26.199
you to rely on their quote minds
and all this crap out of context,
1104
01:39:26.640 --> 01:39:30.159
as if you won't go and actually
read John Damascus saying right here, observe
1105
01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:38.319
that energy capacity for energy or power
potentia, the product of the energy that's
1106
01:39:38.359 --> 01:39:45.239
the effect, and the agent the
person are all different. Here's John Damascus,
1107
01:39:45.319 --> 01:39:50.479
saying to you that the father's action, or excuse me, the God's
1108
01:39:50.520 --> 01:39:56.680
action to create is distinct from the
divine persons. The effect of that creation
1109
01:39:57.199 --> 01:40:00.680
the world is distinct from the person
acting creating. And clearly there's a difference
1110
01:40:00.720 --> 01:40:04.880
between these actions. Because did God
rest on the seven day from creating or
1111
01:40:04.960 --> 01:40:09.680
not? Yes? He did.
And this is an argument Palamus uses against
1112
01:40:09.680 --> 01:40:12.520
the barl Mites. He says,
did God restaurant or is he still creating?
1113
01:40:13.560 --> 01:40:16.840
If he rested from creating, then
not all actions are identical? Is
1114
01:40:16.880 --> 01:40:20.279
that something? But why will why
won't they accept that? Because if they
1115
01:40:20.359 --> 01:40:25.800
accept that, the whole tomistic system
tumbles like a house of cards. That
1116
01:40:25.880 --> 01:40:29.640
it is and that's why what that's
why did you hear the discussion earlier with
1117
01:40:29.720 --> 01:40:33.079
congo Quinas and Leviticus nine? Was
that a guy in the space because I
1118
01:40:33.239 --> 01:40:36.920
helped on like ago? Yeah,
so he said, don't go to de
1119
01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:47.159
bai stock quote literally, stop vote
philosophy. Why would I? Why would
1120
01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:53.880
I go to philosophy when literally you
believe divine revelation tells us that God's glory
1121
01:40:54.039 --> 01:40:59.119
appeared in time and space in Leviticus
nine to all of Israel? What is
1122
01:40:59.199 --> 01:41:01.960
that. Yeah, doctor downs that
created effis. Oh, so you can
1123
01:41:02.000 --> 01:41:09.199
worship creatures the creator to fix is
not a creature? Ond. Yeah,
1124
01:41:09.239 --> 01:41:13.479
that's crazy. Now this is this
is how crazy they are. They are
1125
01:41:13.520 --> 01:41:17.920
in a cult that believes a system. And if you go to the challenging
1126
01:41:18.039 --> 01:41:23.560
the assumptions of the system, that's
why they melt down. I say,
1127
01:41:24.399 --> 01:41:28.800
do they believe in potential at all? Or not in God? I see,
1128
01:41:28.840 --> 01:41:30.600
Okay, that's a big problem.
If they admitted any of that in
1129
01:41:30.720 --> 01:41:35.800
God, then they would say that
that in their mind, that metaphysically necessitates
1130
01:41:35.960 --> 01:41:40.079
that God has composed, God is
changeable, God is passable, God has
1131
01:41:40.159 --> 01:41:44.079
parts. I see. I have
one more question about two more, but
1132
01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:45.520
I think it'll be pretty quick.
And but that, by the way,
1133
01:41:45.640 --> 01:41:50.199
is why I keep asking them if
they will discuss epistemology, because they will
1134
01:41:50.239 --> 01:41:54.600
say that that all of that's not
possible, and then I'm going to say,
1135
01:41:54.680 --> 01:41:57.399
well, how do you know what
isn't isn't possible? Well, because
1136
01:41:57.439 --> 01:42:00.840
we know because of being in metaphysics. The the black guy that was on
1137
01:42:00.920 --> 01:42:04.720
here even said metaphysics is prior to
apistemology. Oh okay, and I wanted
1138
01:42:04.760 --> 01:42:06.920
to ask him and talk to him, how do you know that, because
1139
01:42:06.960 --> 01:42:12.920
that's an assertion, that's that's where
your your system starts with. I was
1140
01:42:12.960 --> 01:42:16.199
gonna ask, do you do foll
follow up debates at all? Or what
1141
01:42:16.279 --> 01:42:20.279
do you mean like with uh,
that Wagner guy, I think that was
1142
01:42:20.319 --> 01:42:25.159
his name, He won't debate.
I've already I've been asking him for months
1143
01:42:25.199 --> 01:42:29.399
to debate dang, yeah, or
like I know, it's kind he only
1144
01:42:29.439 --> 01:42:31.680
wants to have a formal debate on
Philly okuay because that's the one thing that
1145
01:42:31.760 --> 01:42:35.560
he studied. Uh, and that's
he already debated UBI on that. So
1146
01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:40.720
I'm like, well, tumism isn't
built on Philly okuay. Tmism is built
1147
01:42:40.760 --> 01:42:45.279
on the idea that metaphysics is prior
to epistemology. I don't believe that.
1148
01:42:45.399 --> 01:42:49.000
I want to challenge that, and
they won't debate that. Yeah, yeah,
1149
01:42:49.079 --> 01:42:53.199
to me, that sounds crazy.
I think epistemology would come before metaphysics.
1150
01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:56.319
But well, even if you thought
that it did or didn't, like,
1151
01:42:56.760 --> 01:43:00.439
there still needs to be some addressing
of the argument that it doesn't.
1152
01:43:00.319 --> 01:43:08.399
Yeah, that's just a it's just
an assumption question first principles. M HM.
1153
01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:13.199
I would ask do you do Follo
up debates with like, I know
1154
01:43:13.239 --> 01:43:17.279
it's kind of out there, but
like Tea Jump or malpass Or, I
1155
01:43:17.359 --> 01:43:20.279
would not have another debate with t
Dump. I don't think there's any point.
1156
01:43:21.439 --> 01:43:25.119
Yeah, and my last question is, I've seen you talk about black
1157
01:43:25.159 --> 01:43:29.840
hebrews Raelites for a while. Have
you ever read into Rostafarianism And if so,
1158
01:43:30.079 --> 01:43:32.760
do you think that's like on the
same tier of like bananas or just
1159
01:43:32.840 --> 01:43:38.000
craziness. It's very similar. In
fact, I think Hebrew roots and black
1160
01:43:38.039 --> 01:43:45.920
Heber Israelite will have some ideological lineage
from Rastafarian tendencies. I can believe that
1161
01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:49.119
because it's not es centralized religion is
the weird thing about Rosty stuff, right,
1162
01:43:49.239 --> 01:43:53.159
And they don't really have dogmas.
It's it's not really a dog a
1163
01:43:53.239 --> 01:43:57.720
position with like feel like you're not
going to find the Rastafarian systematic theology like
1164
01:43:57.800 --> 01:44:01.359
that doesn't think there's no Russifar and
heresies or Rustafarian metaphysic. It's just kind
1165
01:44:01.399 --> 01:44:05.399
of like a vague abstraction. Yeah, but I do think that some of
1166
01:44:05.479 --> 01:44:11.199
the ideas of like you know,
we're the true Zion and all that,
1167
01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:16.880
I think that did influence I've just
seen people arguing this in some articles I've
1168
01:44:16.920 --> 01:44:21.800
read, but I don't know that
much about either Rastafarianism or any of these
1169
01:44:21.880 --> 01:44:26.079
movements other than the one livestream.
I did kind of reading some articles about
1170
01:44:26.079 --> 01:44:29.560
it. I'd recommend you read into
it because it's like they believe that like
1171
01:44:29.640 --> 01:44:32.960
Gone incarnated as the Emperor of Ethiopia. I'm aware of that, that Haley
1172
01:44:33.439 --> 01:44:39.000
Haley Selassie is the Holy Spirit.
I'mware of that. You all right,
1173
01:44:39.039 --> 01:44:41.600
thank you, thank you for letting
me on at a good time. Yeah,
1174
01:44:41.640 --> 01:44:45.159
some people say that that's not actually
true. I don't know whether it
1175
01:44:45.279 --> 01:45:03.720
is or isn't. Are got on
mute? Are you there? He's that
1176
01:45:03.920 --> 01:45:12.760
hard time connecting father deacon? Are
either Yeah. I was gonna say.
1177
01:45:15.199 --> 01:45:20.359
After I graduated high school, I
was in UH. I took some classes
1178
01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:26.840
a quick community college before I went
to Thomas Quinn's College, and a friend
1179
01:45:26.840 --> 01:45:31.840
of mine gave me a book on
roster Fororianism, and I was already in
1180
01:45:31.920 --> 01:45:39.439
the apologetics by then, and it
was the dumbest thing I've ever like.
1181
01:45:40.119 --> 01:45:46.680
Yeah, it's really low here differend
wi fi real quick over here on on
1182
01:45:46.840 --> 01:45:50.960
the live stream, so it'll come
right back don't worry. It's not it's
1183
01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.399
not going anywhere. It just takes
it a second to hop over to the
1184
01:45:55.520 --> 01:45:59.640
other. Uh. And usually if
I go to this other this other band,
1185
01:46:00.920 --> 01:46:03.840
it doesn't have as many problems.
So try that here, wa go
1186
01:46:03.880 --> 01:46:15.319
ahead? Hello, uh huh,
what's up? Ari? What's up?
1187
01:46:23.000 --> 01:46:29.960
Hello? Yeah, what's up?
Man? I can hear you. I
1188
01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:47.000
know it's sometimes it just doesn't work. Drew, Oh, hey, yeah,
1189
01:46:47.159 --> 01:46:50.159
Jay, what's up? Man?
Hey? Uh yeah, I was
1190
01:46:50.239 --> 01:46:56.680
just curious. Can you can you
explain exactly how Roman Catholics understand original sceny?
1191
01:46:58.720 --> 01:47:01.520
Okay? Well, I I would
say that the more modern you get,
1192
01:47:02.960 --> 01:47:09.039
the more the Roman Catholic position just
strictly on original sin moved closer to
1193
01:47:09.199 --> 01:47:14.359
the Orthodox position. So if you
read like the Vatican Clarification on Limbo,
1194
01:47:15.359 --> 01:47:18.119
it discusses this in the first I
don't know half of the of the essay
1195
01:47:18.920 --> 01:47:26.399
that the period from Augustine to Pope
San Gregory the Great, that period was
1196
01:47:26.479 --> 01:47:32.079
really the dominance of the strict Augustinian
view that all men are in Adam as
1197
01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:38.119
in an archetype, and so in
that way all men share not just in
1198
01:47:38.199 --> 01:47:41.680
the effects of Adam Sin, but
also in his guilt. I did a
1199
01:47:41.720 --> 01:47:45.760
whole podcast, a three hour podcast
on Augustine and the City of God where
1200
01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:49.880
he discusses this topic and he makes
it very clear he makes this Neil Platinum
1201
01:47:49.960 --> 01:47:54.000
type of argument that we're all in
Adam as in an archetype, and that's
1202
01:47:54.119 --> 01:47:58.560
why we share that guilt. And
that's because he had a misreading of Romans
1203
01:47:58.600 --> 01:48:02.279
five idea that all men sin because
all men were in Adam and therefore all
1204
01:48:02.319 --> 01:48:06.439
sin. It's rather the Greek is
different Meandorf has a good response to this,
1205
01:48:06.520 --> 01:48:11.119
where he points out that the effects
of Adam sin come upon all men
1206
01:48:11.239 --> 01:48:15.159
because all men eventually sin, not
that all men actually literally sin in Adam.
1207
01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:19.439
So after Augustine, the Roman Catholic
Church, by the early Middle Ages
1208
01:48:19.720 --> 01:48:25.199
itself begins to soften this position,
and they bring in the notion that no
1209
01:48:25.479 --> 01:48:30.039
infants are not automatically damned, like
Augustine said, and Augustine clearly taught that
1210
01:48:30.079 --> 01:48:34.800
it's called the mass damnata. Everyone
in Adam is a damned mass mass damnata,
1211
01:48:35.760 --> 01:48:43.000
a big ball of damnation. When
they soften this with infant limbo,
1212
01:48:43.199 --> 01:48:48.680
they say infants are not guilty of
any actual sin. The only thing that
1213
01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:54.399
they have is the deprivation of what
Ramakatas call original grace. I think,
1214
01:48:54.439 --> 01:48:58.880
as Orthodox we could agree that all
men have the effects of adam sin,
1215
01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:02.319
and one of those effects is the
deprivation of grace or the life of the
1216
01:49:02.359 --> 01:49:09.520
Holy Spirit. So we agree there. But over time the Romancallity Church then
1217
01:49:09.560 --> 01:49:15.039
eventually even says and confirms that,
well, there's infant limbo. And I
1218
01:49:15.119 --> 01:49:17.520
think around that medieval period too,
when they talk about infant limbo is when
1219
01:49:17.520 --> 01:49:24.560
they also say it's because they're not
guilty of actual sin. That's a specific
1220
01:49:24.640 --> 01:49:29.039
rejection of the Augustinian position, because
Augustine believed that infants were damned if they
1221
01:49:29.039 --> 01:49:32.119
weren't baptized, and that's why the
limbo doctrine is a softening of that.
1222
01:49:32.439 --> 01:49:40.640
Anyway, the Orthodox position does not
argue that there's any taint. It's really
1223
01:49:40.720 --> 01:49:44.760
the only meaning of taint is of
original sin, is that there's a deprivation
1224
01:49:44.920 --> 01:49:48.039
of grace. But we don't and
never said that infants were damned or anything
1225
01:49:48.119 --> 01:49:53.520
like that. And also, the
Augustinian notion of original sin is intimately tied
1226
01:49:53.600 --> 01:49:58.720
up with the Augustinian view of anthropology. So Augustine, because he collapses nature
1227
01:49:58.760 --> 01:50:03.600
in person the Trinity. He also
collapses nature in person in human anthropology,
1228
01:50:04.199 --> 01:50:08.840
so all men are just manifestations of
the nature of Adam. He doesn't have
1229
01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:13.079
a consistent distinction between nature and person
and humans, and so he doesn't understand,
1230
01:50:13.119 --> 01:50:16.439
for example, recapitulation, that all
of our nature is recapitulated in Christ
1231
01:50:16.479 --> 01:50:19.560
and that's why all men are resurrected, for example, instead of God.
1232
01:50:19.640 --> 01:50:23.960
He struggles with why the reprobate would
even be resurrected at all. They have
1233
01:50:24.039 --> 01:50:28.680
no connection to Christ, which shows
us that he doesn't teach recapitulation. So
1234
01:50:29.000 --> 01:50:32.000
the Orthodox view is pretty much all
the fathers in the East teach recapitulation.
1235
01:50:32.079 --> 01:50:39.279
Since Aeronaeus that Christ recapitulates our whole
nature. That means that what determines our
1236
01:50:39.319 --> 01:50:44.520
experience of the escaton as to either
ill will or ever well being or ever
1237
01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:48.399
ill being is based on our personal
mode of willing. So even though our
1238
01:50:48.520 --> 01:50:55.800
nature is restored, each individual person, each individual hypostasis, will determine their
1239
01:50:55.840 --> 01:50:59.479
experience of the escaton based on how
they willed in this life. So even
1240
01:50:59.479 --> 01:51:05.319
though nature is restored, guilt is
hypostatic or personal guilt is not attributed to
1241
01:51:05.640 --> 01:51:12.199
nature. So Roman Catholics still tend
towards thinking that our nature is guilty,
1242
01:51:12.680 --> 01:51:15.399
even though they're not Calvinists and they're
not even Augustinian, there's this holdover of
1243
01:51:15.479 --> 01:51:19.840
this idea. And that's precisely why
they would even think that Mary would have
1244
01:51:19.960 --> 01:51:26.960
to be immaculately conceived for Christ to
be born with the holy humanity that he
1245
01:51:27.039 --> 01:51:30.520
has. I was just about to
ask a question about that exact thing,
1246
01:51:30.680 --> 01:51:35.000
actually, because like, like,
because you brought up how Christ came and
1247
01:51:35.079 --> 01:51:41.560
he recapitulated our nature for it.
So, but it would sound like from
1248
01:51:41.680 --> 01:51:45.000
a Roman at least from a Roman
Catholic view that with Mary being born well
1249
01:51:45.119 --> 01:51:50.000
conceived with it like, you know, because it's essentially that she's you know,
1250
01:51:50.439 --> 01:51:55.359
not born with the stain of original
sin, right, correct, So
1251
01:51:55.800 --> 01:52:00.399
by default, if Christ came to
recapitulate, you know, our nature,
1252
01:52:00.119 --> 01:52:04.039
what exactly would that imply for the
nature of uh, you know, the
1253
01:52:04.119 --> 01:52:08.239
theotokos first, So I guess I'm
trying to understand their part as well,
1254
01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:11.159
at least from well again, So
the key, the key element here is
1255
01:52:11.199 --> 01:52:14.840
that you know, we think she
did die, she did if she experienced
1256
01:52:14.840 --> 01:52:16.880
the same effects of original sin as
everyone else, which is which is to
1257
01:52:17.039 --> 01:52:21.960
undergo death. So right, So
even though she was graced in terms of
1258
01:52:23.039 --> 01:52:26.800
the presence of the Holy Spirit from
from out throughout her whole life, it
1259
01:52:26.920 --> 01:52:30.359
doesn't mean that she had to be
preserved from death. And that's why they
1260
01:52:30.399 --> 01:52:33.560
will even though they have in the
in the Uniate churches the feast of dormision
1261
01:52:34.079 --> 01:52:38.359
like dormsician means she she went to
sleep, means she died. If you
1262
01:52:38.439 --> 01:52:43.079
die, that means you're a son
or daughter of Adam. So wouldn't that
1263
01:52:43.239 --> 01:52:49.680
so if she was already born without
that particular stain from their perspective, then
1264
01:52:49.840 --> 01:52:56.239
wouldn't that essentially like what wouldn't that
in blood that she's not like she's not
1265
01:52:56.439 --> 01:53:00.720
necessarily of a human nature in the
same is that we are, but rather
1266
01:53:00.880 --> 01:53:03.239
like some kind of like a I
don't know whether to say, like a
1267
01:53:03.319 --> 01:53:09.560
divine or quasi divine nature. I
guess you could say maybe. I don't
1268
01:53:09.560 --> 01:53:13.119
think they intended to mean that,
but I do think that the reason that
1269
01:53:13.399 --> 01:53:17.920
you get these very odd, uh
modern pushes within the Roman Catholic sphere for
1270
01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:23.960
Mary to be co redemptrics to be
given these higher and higher and higher titles
1271
01:53:24.520 --> 01:53:28.920
ultimately goes back to these issues.
Mm hmm, So like that would they
1272
01:53:28.960 --> 01:53:31.640
all? Do they also believe that
like she was not because she didn't have
1273
01:53:31.760 --> 01:53:40.840
that staying that she's also not capable
of sending either. I don't know what
1274
01:53:40.960 --> 01:53:44.119
I would say about the possibility or
that if there's if there was any real
1275
01:53:44.600 --> 01:53:51.920
potentiality, but I just think they
would say that there was consistent operative grace
1276
01:53:53.119 --> 01:53:57.000
or or whatever or sanctifying grace in
Mary that she would not sin. I
1277
01:53:57.039 --> 01:54:01.239
don't know, okay, okay,
because I've heard like mixed responses to that
1278
01:54:01.399 --> 01:54:05.600
from various people. I heard some
say that like Mary, you know,
1279
01:54:05.800 --> 01:54:12.159
it was effectively incapable of being able
to sin in herself because of like her
1280
01:54:12.920 --> 01:54:16.439
being born without that particular stain in
their understanding of such at least. And
1281
01:54:16.560 --> 01:54:20.840
I guess they kind of had me
questioning the notion because it seems like I
1282
01:54:20.920 --> 01:54:26.119
guess you could say, in at
least by that very belief of the immaculate
1283
01:54:26.199 --> 01:54:30.159
conception for itself. I think even
though I think that when people try to
1284
01:54:30.199 --> 01:54:35.760
say like old calfulars worship Mary,
etc. I think they might I think
1285
01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:41.079
what they're at least trying to say
when they say it towards Roman Catholics.
1286
01:54:41.960 --> 01:54:45.159
Would you say that maybe have more
to do with the particular dogmuth the immaculate
1287
01:54:45.199 --> 01:54:49.079
conception, rather than its just purely
being based upon like you know, the
1288
01:54:49.199 --> 01:54:55.720
veneration of the Blessed Mother. Yeah, I think it's more so those things.
1289
01:54:56.399 --> 01:55:00.439
And again I think ultimately the Maculate
conception stuff is all about up with
1290
01:55:00.479 --> 01:55:06.359
the traces and the remnants of the
Augustinian tendency towards that view of original sin.
1291
01:55:08.600 --> 01:55:11.840
Oh yeah, guys, good thanks
man appreciation. Yeah, great question,
1292
01:55:11.920 --> 01:55:15.880
and I did do There is a
fuller, longer treatment of this discussion.
1293
01:55:15.039 --> 01:55:20.439
Now Here is the famous Irena As
quote about recapitulation, which again you
1294
01:55:20.760 --> 01:55:29.000
will not find this. I mean, it would be an interesting experiment to
1295
01:55:29.159 --> 01:55:34.680
see if there's any Latin fathers after
Augustine that do believe in recapitulation. I'm
1296
01:55:34.760 --> 01:55:40.279
not aware of any. It could
exist. There might be something that we're
1297
01:55:40.319 --> 01:55:42.600
just because there a lot of stuff
still hasn't been translated, so maybe there
1298
01:55:42.640 --> 01:55:47.600
is something out there. But what
you see that's very common in the East.
1299
01:55:48.920 --> 01:55:55.039
We find it in Cyril of Alexandria, we find it in John Damascus,
1300
01:55:55.439 --> 01:56:00.119
we find it everywhere in Saint Maximus, this idea that Christ recapitulates all
1301
01:56:00.199 --> 01:56:05.960
of human nature and that the redemption
of Christ is cosmic and scope because of
1302
01:56:06.079 --> 01:56:12.880
Romans eight. This is a really
strong argument against Roman Catholicism because even though
1303
01:56:12.920 --> 01:56:15.960
it might technically sort of be there, how would something that's so fundamental to
1304
01:56:16.039 --> 01:56:24.039
Christology and the Seven Councils be forgotten
and lost in the West Because this is
1305
01:56:24.079 --> 01:56:27.800
related to the Heroine of Hades too, right, which Roman Catholics maybe they
1306
01:56:28.119 --> 01:56:31.520
technically confess it, but it doesn't
really have any relevance to their theology beyond
1307
01:56:31.640 --> 01:56:38.600
just some sort of abstract speculation in
some manual somewhere. Quite Yeah, I
1308
01:56:38.760 --> 01:56:45.079
was going to add concerning the imact
conceptionally and Mary's free will from the Roman
1309
01:56:45.159 --> 01:56:50.479
Catholic position, they're probably influenced by
Augustine. Yeah, and he's kind of
1310
01:56:50.600 --> 01:56:57.520
definition of free will that you find
nature and grace, which is totally foreign
1311
01:56:58.439 --> 01:57:03.720
to Orthodoxy in terms of how we
define will and choice and things like that.
1312
01:57:04.319 --> 01:57:08.199
So yeah, Augustin that I cover
that in that in the three hour
1313
01:57:08.560 --> 01:57:14.359
august and Original Sin taught because Augustine's
view of willing is very similar to Libido
1314
01:57:14.439 --> 01:57:18.600
Dominondi. So he thinks that fallen
man is sort of even though he's not
1315
01:57:19.680 --> 01:57:25.560
he's not a Lutheran or a Calvinist. He thinks that the will of man
1316
01:57:25.720 --> 01:57:30.520
is directed invariably in two directions.
It's either directed towards creatures and therefore sin,
1317
01:57:31.279 --> 01:57:38.640
or it's directed towards God. So
there's this dialectical that's the only options
1318
01:57:38.680 --> 01:57:42.720
in Augustine. This is why,
for example, he thinks that the marital
1319
01:57:42.800 --> 01:57:46.760
bed and marital unions have to contain
some venial sin, because there's no way
1320
01:57:46.840 --> 01:57:50.520
that you could be enraptured with God
if you're enraptured with your wife, who's
1321
01:57:50.520 --> 01:57:57.239
a creature. So he himself says
that he struggles with understanding how marital relations
1322
01:57:57.279 --> 01:58:00.439
can be sacramental, and he says
there has to in marriage be some benal
1323
01:58:00.520 --> 01:58:04.239
sin and sexuality. Well, how
can you have a necessary sin in terms
1324
01:58:04.279 --> 01:58:09.520
of a sacrament. It doesn't make
any sense. But it's all misunderstood because
1325
01:58:09.600 --> 01:58:15.479
Augustine has a dialectical view of willing. So he thinks that you will either
1326
01:58:15.039 --> 01:58:18.520
for God or for creatures, and
that's the only only options. And so
1327
01:58:18.600 --> 01:58:24.359
it's a dialectical willing that's either for
virtue and grace in God or sin.
1328
01:58:24.560 --> 01:58:30.039
That's it. So he doesn't have
a conception of free will defined as the
1329
01:58:30.119 --> 01:58:33.279
ability to will multiple goods. So
the rest of the Church, when they
1330
01:58:33.399 --> 01:58:36.159
talk about what it means to have
free will, it means to have a
1331
01:58:36.279 --> 01:58:40.680
choice amongst options. So, for
example, in the Garden of Eden,
1332
01:58:40.760 --> 01:58:45.239
Adam and Eve they had free will, there was no fall. So how
1333
01:58:45.279 --> 01:58:49.720
can we define free will as dialectical
willing in terms of good or evil?
1334
01:58:50.840 --> 01:58:55.840
It's not so that Augustine and I
imagine the Roman Catholics would fall on this.
1335
01:58:59.079 --> 01:59:04.600
She would never just like in the
Escaton the Saints wouldn't choose yes bad.
1336
01:59:05.239 --> 01:59:13.640
Because Augustine defines a free will is
a perfected will that only chooses the
1337
01:59:13.720 --> 01:59:15.800
good, which is God. Well
that and he also thinks that you wouldn't
1338
01:59:15.800 --> 01:59:19.640
even want to will anything else because
in the Beativic vision, your intellect would
1339
01:59:19.640 --> 01:59:31.760
be satiated, because he does teach
basically Beativic vision. So for those that
1340
01:59:31.840 --> 01:59:45.000
are interested, here is the the
talk that we did a couple of years
1341
01:59:45.039 --> 02:00:01.239
ago on Augustine and original sin.
So we're looking for Rum Catholics principally today.
1342
02:00:01.319 --> 02:00:08.479
I mean, I will entertain or
take Islamic arguments Protestants if they want
1343
02:00:08.520 --> 02:00:14.720
to chime in, but primarily we're
trying to focus on tonistic Roman Catholic argumentation.
1344
02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:23.840
If we have any Catholics, Dion, Hey care, Yeah, there
1345
02:00:23.880 --> 02:00:30.079
we go. Okay. So I've
been studying different arguments against Taoheed, and
1346
02:00:30.199 --> 02:00:34.520
I've heard you give a few arguments, and I've heard I've been studying a
1347
02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:40.760
few different articles too. So I
was talking with a Muslim about does the
1348
02:00:40.880 --> 02:00:47.680
law possess eternally different type of like
interpersonal attributes and qualities, And he was
1349
02:00:47.760 --> 02:00:53.960
saying yes, but he was appealing
to like Cambridge Cambridge properties and things like
1350
02:00:54.079 --> 02:00:57.600
that. So I'm just curious,
like, how would you argue against the
1351
02:00:57.720 --> 02:01:03.039
Muslim making those type of appeals?
Would you even do that? Well,
1352
02:01:03.079 --> 02:01:09.119
I mean, you can appeal to
modern philosophical argumentations. I guess I don't
1353
02:01:09.119 --> 02:01:14.239
have a problem necessarily doing that,
But how does that appeal like really solve,
1354
02:01:14.359 --> 02:01:18.600
for example, the issues of the
relationship of Allah to his attributes?
1355
02:01:18.680 --> 02:01:21.239
Right? So, if, for
example, if you watch the the Bo
1356
02:01:21.399 --> 02:01:27.479
Branson Jake debate, have you seen
that one a lot a bit ago?
1357
02:01:27.720 --> 02:01:30.399
I probably have to watch it again
though, Yeah, I mean, the
1358
02:01:31.119 --> 02:01:36.600
debate then centers on if you say
that Allah really is distinct from his attributes.
1359
02:01:38.359 --> 02:01:42.199
Then the question that arises is,
Okay, are the attributes do they
1360
02:01:42.279 --> 02:01:47.960
possess a sayeity? Because Jake's argument
was that you as a trinityranary consistent because
1361
02:01:48.399 --> 02:01:53.520
divinity equals a sayety. The father
has a sayity, but the son lacks
1362
02:01:53.560 --> 02:01:57.479
a saety. Therefore the son is
not fully divine. But doctor Branson shows
1363
02:01:57.520 --> 02:02:01.079
that not even you believe on your
position and that divinity equals to siety because
1364
02:02:01.119 --> 02:02:06.399
the same argument applied to the attributes
is refuted when Jake says that the attributes
1365
02:02:08.239 --> 02:02:12.560
do not possess the saiety. Right, and then so it really depends on
1366
02:02:12.600 --> 02:02:16.760
the Muslim that we're talking about,
so right, and then Jake even seems
1367
02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:21.680
to try to bring up like an
essence energy distinction argument for Tealheed. And
1368
02:02:21.840 --> 02:02:25.560
that's what like the Muslim I was
talking do he seemed to do. He
1369
02:02:25.720 --> 02:02:30.319
was trying to say that a lot
of attributes are extrinsic. Yeah, that
1370
02:02:30.800 --> 02:02:34.920
most of the as I understand,
unless you're doctor Khalil and you're a Neil
1371
02:02:34.960 --> 02:02:41.000
Playton as Shiah. Pretty much the
Muslims believe in a real distinction between all
1372
02:02:41.039 --> 02:02:46.239
in his essence, I mean between
all and his attributes. Okay, so
1373
02:02:46.359 --> 02:02:50.399
what I guess what would be your
your you know, what's going to be
1374
02:02:50.479 --> 02:02:56.439
your first argument against tao heed Hm. It's going to depend again on which
1375
02:02:56.479 --> 02:03:01.560
type of Muslim is arguing. But
I mean, the first thing I would
1376
02:03:01.560 --> 02:03:05.479
just simply say is why should I
believe that your position is in any better
1377
02:03:05.600 --> 02:03:12.960
position when your main argument is something
that you yourself have to deal with and
1378
02:03:13.680 --> 02:03:16.479
have a double standard for. But
I might, but again depends on which
1379
02:03:16.520 --> 02:03:19.800
Muslim it is, because you know, if they it depends on like,
1380
02:03:19.880 --> 02:03:23.399
do they believe in divine eminence or
not? If they don't believe in it,
1381
02:03:23.520 --> 02:03:25.520
then I might go in the direction
of arguing like, well, then
1382
02:03:25.560 --> 02:03:29.720
how do you know a lot at
all if there's no eminence? Because it
1383
02:03:29.760 --> 02:03:31.039
begs the question to say it,
because you know, the chron says,
1384
02:03:31.119 --> 02:03:33.920
got all, it's not like anything
in the created order. So I'm gonna
1385
02:03:33.960 --> 02:03:36.760
wait and see how they if they
believe in analogy or not. If they
1386
02:03:36.760 --> 02:03:42.000
do believe in analogy, then I
want to understand how Jake went hardcore for
1387
02:03:42.359 --> 02:03:45.800
anthropomorphism, right, because he thinks
that Allah has an uncreated foot and an
1388
02:03:45.880 --> 02:03:48.800
uncreated shin. But what does that
mean? Well, you, he says,
1389
02:03:48.880 --> 02:03:51.199
you look at the context. Okay, Well you can say, look
1390
02:03:51.199 --> 02:03:55.039
at the context. What does it
mean to say Allah as an uncreated foot
1391
02:03:55.079 --> 02:03:58.880
in the context? And he says, or an uncreated hand? Or what?
1392
02:03:59.000 --> 02:04:02.279
Oh, it's all a grasping What
does that tell me? All a
1393
02:04:02.399 --> 02:04:06.600
grasps things. I mean, this
is why Sam Chumun, for example,
1394
02:04:06.640 --> 02:04:11.800
always brings up with those types.
Wait a minute. It says Allah descends
1395
02:04:11.880 --> 02:04:15.520
to you know, of he moves
from the throne and descends to the heavens
1396
02:04:15.640 --> 02:04:18.960
or whatever in the hadiths? What
does that mean? And Jake will say
1397
02:04:19.000 --> 02:04:24.520
it means what it says, okay. But to move and to descend means
1398
02:04:24.600 --> 02:04:31.039
that there's spatial, temporal, spatial
relations and perhaps temporality. So space is
1399
02:04:31.119 --> 02:04:36.119
something other than Allah. Right,
So if Allah has eternally descended from his
1400
02:04:36.279 --> 02:04:42.720
throne, then there's spatial relations which
are also eternal. So now you have
1401
02:04:42.800 --> 02:04:48.239
Allah and space, So you have
two principles that are eternal exactly. Yeah,
1402
02:04:48.439 --> 02:04:50.840
that's a good art. So it's
more of an epistemological army man,
1403
02:04:51.119 --> 02:04:56.680
and I think that's right. Would
you would you ever make any type of
1404
02:04:56.880 --> 02:05:01.399
arguments that the only possible god that
can exist is a you know, triune
1405
02:05:01.439 --> 02:05:05.319
god, a god that is not
only one person. Yeah, we argue
1406
02:05:05.359 --> 02:05:10.000
that all the time. Okay,
do you have any videos on that I
1407
02:05:10.039 --> 02:05:12.640
can go back and because I watch
all your lives? Oh yeah, I
1408
02:05:12.680 --> 02:05:15.319
mean I just put up one not
too long ago. Why the trinity is
1409
02:05:15.399 --> 02:05:18.560
necessary? Okay, that's on dire
eclips. And then you could watch the
1410
02:05:18.680 --> 02:05:25.680
critique that we did of Ed Faser. It's called like universals something critiquing Ed
1411
02:05:25.760 --> 02:05:30.039
Phaser. That video argues that I'll
check it out. Thanks you great questions
1412
02:05:35.800 --> 02:05:44.079
fortnite. All his foot is orbiting
in space. Well, remember, for
1413
02:05:44.239 --> 02:05:53.239
even Tom and Jake's tradition, the
argument hinges on perfections, and clearly it's
1414
02:05:53.319 --> 02:05:57.920
more perfect for all uh to laugh
than to not laugh. But I made
1415
02:05:57.920 --> 02:06:00.319
the point of saying, well,
isn't it more to eternally laugh and to
1416
02:06:00.399 --> 02:06:03.359
laugh? Once on that line and
forget it. And by the way,
1417
02:06:03.439 --> 02:06:08.239
if having a foot is more perfect
than not having a foot, then isn't
1418
02:06:08.279 --> 02:06:11.520
having more toes on the foot more
perfect than having less toes? You see
1419
02:06:11.560 --> 02:06:15.279
how silly this is? Literally this
is the silliness of how they argue.
1420
02:06:15.279 --> 02:06:20.159
And do you notice the what's the
commonality between say a Tomas in a Muslim
1421
02:06:20.239 --> 02:06:28.159
in Allah's perfections the metaphysical assumptions.
The assumption is, well, we all
1422
02:06:28.319 --> 02:06:33.159
know what perfection is, and perfection
has to mean that having six toes is
1423
02:06:33.239 --> 02:06:40.760
better than five toes. We all
know that Allah laughing is more perfect than
1424
02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:45.880
not laughing. So there's this silly
metaphysical assumption about perfections. By the way,
1425
02:06:45.960 --> 02:06:50.279
Thomas do the same thing. They
have these metaphysical positions that they think
1426
02:06:50.359 --> 02:06:55.840
are self evident and first and primary, which is why they're all melting down
1427
02:06:55.960 --> 02:07:00.560
every time we ask them. Why
are we supposed to think that that's the
1428
02:07:00.680 --> 02:07:03.359
case. You believe that your system
is built on that. But what if
1429
02:07:03.399 --> 02:07:09.560
I don't accept the first principles of
your system, Well, just grant me
1430
02:07:09.680 --> 02:07:13.439
my first piss. Basically, they're
doing the same thing every other system does
1431
02:07:13.479 --> 02:07:16.680
of system building, which is,
grant me my assumptions and let me convince
1432
02:07:16.720 --> 02:07:21.000
you of my position. That's what
they do, Father Deacon, or either
1433
02:07:23.680 --> 02:07:27.720
let me tell you a really cool
fictional story that I made up. I
1434
02:07:27.800 --> 02:07:31.159
don't question that fictional story because it'll
lose the argument. Well, let me
1435
02:07:31.199 --> 02:07:34.720
play the Let me play the devil's
advocate, Tomas, Why on earth would
1436
02:07:34.760 --> 02:07:40.239
you think that being and the good
in metaphysics is a fictional story. You're
1437
02:07:40.359 --> 02:07:45.239
just being a coping ortho bro by
daring to think that my philosophy of being
1438
02:07:45.399 --> 02:07:50.840
is a fictional story. You have
to start with metaphysics. Okay, why,
1439
02:07:51.760 --> 02:07:58.079
Yeah, that's missing the point,
right, They just assert? But
1440
02:07:58.319 --> 02:08:03.000
look, hey, in a position
based on on papal authority worship, why
1441
02:08:03.039 --> 02:08:07.119
wouldn't we expect them to just assert
authoritative, dogmatic positions that they don't think
1442
02:08:07.199 --> 02:08:13.239
have to be justified or given any
coherence. And it's so strange that people
1443
02:08:13.279 --> 02:08:24.279
can't even grasp what we're asking for
justification that that's and what do they do?
1444
02:08:24.439 --> 02:08:31.600
They just restate their story And I
mean either it's low IQ or like
1445
02:08:31.760 --> 02:08:37.239
we have talked to, certain paradigms
can be like operating systems that don't even
1446
02:08:37.279 --> 02:08:41.640
allow you to yes, to recognize
what's being asked, so they can't process,
1447
02:08:41.680 --> 02:08:45.359
they can't hear the question that's being
asked. Well, it wasn't that
1448
02:08:45.479 --> 02:08:48.439
the same thing, even tho it
was a different topic. When we were
1449
02:08:48.479 --> 02:08:52.760
asking the Muslims, can you restate
the hypothetical about the Qur'an's relation to prior
1450
02:08:52.840 --> 02:09:00.800
revelation And it's like their defense mechanisms
wouldn't even let them reset the hypothetical.
1451
02:09:01.880 --> 02:09:13.720
Yep. And we've seen this happen
before in what was it? First of
1452
02:09:13.760 --> 02:09:24.359
all, I noticed reading it in
Eric Voglan where he's talking about uh tiny
1453
02:09:24.439 --> 02:09:31.159
mustache Man's Germany Stones Russia, like
different kind of neo gnostic kind of systems
1454
02:09:31.199 --> 02:09:41.600
that were built in which remember it
says that during the trials they said,
1455
02:09:41.920 --> 02:09:48.479
well, we couldn't disobey orders like
that. Yeah, we weren't capable.
1456
02:09:48.520 --> 02:09:52.720
And I always interpreted that that they
were unwilling, And Foglan says, you
1457
02:09:52.800 --> 02:09:58.399
know, they built into the system
that that wasn't even a question. You
1458
02:09:58.960 --> 02:10:05.800
couldn't process that. And you even
see this with like trying to translate words
1459
02:10:05.880 --> 02:10:11.800
after the fall of communism and stuff
like that, that they had translators had
1460
02:10:11.960 --> 02:10:20.159
a really difficult time translating words that
had anything to do with the individual because
1461
02:10:20.199 --> 02:10:24.560
there was such kind of a hive
mind that they didn't have an operating system
1462
02:10:24.760 --> 02:10:28.319
that they can understand that. And
a lot of this kind of goes into
1463
02:10:28.359 --> 02:10:35.840
the philosophy language that Quin was talking
about with indeterminacy of translation. That doesn't
1464
02:10:35.880 --> 02:10:39.720
mean that, you know, there
isn't some sort of overlap. And I
1465
02:10:39.800 --> 02:10:46.680
think what he was saying is that
and kind of a coherence holistic sense in
1466
02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:54.439
terms of semantics, is that there's
no what was Quin's position, he was
1467
02:10:54.560 --> 02:11:01.800
going against an arguing against the classical
few of corresponds that words have kind of
1468
02:11:01.840 --> 02:11:05.640
a one to one they derive their
meaning through one to one correspondence with the
1469
02:11:05.720 --> 02:11:09.840
property entity which they're referring to.
And he goes through his whole kind of
1470
02:11:11.079 --> 02:11:20.159
critique of that and basically shows that
no, there's there's a sort of indeterminacy
1471
02:11:20.000 --> 02:11:24.760
unless you're immersed within the paradigm.
And he uses the Gavia guy right like
1472
02:11:24.840 --> 02:11:28.520
it's a rabbit running and that the
point is there is no one to one
1473
02:11:28.600 --> 02:11:33.319
correspondence. It could you know,
it's all kind of interconnected within the paradigm.
1474
02:11:33.680 --> 02:11:35.600
That could be ancestor it could be
food, it could be all these
1475
02:11:35.680 --> 02:11:43.279
different things. And so it makes
sense that if your paradigm has constructed such
1476
02:11:43.520 --> 02:11:50.640
that it has no concept to process
some sort of reality or understand it,
1477
02:11:50.720 --> 02:11:54.159
it has no meaning. They can't
a person can't understand it can't even understand
1478
02:11:54.159 --> 02:12:09.600
what's being said. Yes, suh, are you there fortnite? Do you
1479
02:12:09.640 --> 02:12:13.560
want to talk? Oh? Yeah, yeah it So I got a question
1480
02:12:13.800 --> 02:12:16.960
relating on your position on the essence
and energy distinction. Right, so you
1481
02:12:18.199 --> 02:12:22.560
firm right, it's a real distinction
between the essence and the energies. Well,
1482
02:12:22.760 --> 02:12:26.319
real distinction is a later term,
that's a late scholastic post even Aquinas
1483
02:12:26.439 --> 02:12:31.319
term. So depending upon what you
mean by that. If you think that
1484
02:12:31.479 --> 02:12:37.520
real means composition, partition or division, no, But if you if we
1485
02:12:37.680 --> 02:12:43.319
mean a real ontological distinction, yes, and so the orthodox response is that
1486
02:12:43.720 --> 02:12:46.720
the same level of distinction between the
persons is the same type of distinction between
1487
02:12:46.840 --> 02:12:58.199
essence and energy. Are you there? Yeah? My bad, I'm back.
1488
02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:01.760
Okay, do you have like a
like said definition you can give out?
1489
02:13:03.439 --> 02:13:07.399
I mean, the cap of Docians
did all this without scholastic distinctions.
1490
02:13:07.560 --> 02:13:11.159
So what do you mean? The
definition is that just as the father is
1491
02:13:11.199 --> 02:13:16.119
distinct from the son, so also
the essence is distinc from the energy.
1492
02:13:16.640 --> 02:13:20.039
Right, But this this varies across
interpretations. Right, if your Scotist you
1493
02:13:20.039 --> 02:13:24.680
would say that's simply a formal distinction. Which is widely different from a real
1494
02:13:24.760 --> 02:13:28.199
distinction, right, and so the
way to different interpretations off that. So
1495
02:13:28.279 --> 02:13:30.880
how would you understand the real disis? Right? So that's why if you
1496
02:13:31.039 --> 02:13:33.600
fall, if you follow the debate
when it gets to the point of Palamos,
1497
02:13:33.680 --> 02:13:39.039
the way that it would easily also
just cancel out all the Scotist arguments.
1498
02:13:39.800 --> 02:13:45.560
The argument isn't ultimately about distinguishing the
attributes amongst themselves, but rather what
1499
02:13:45.680 --> 02:13:50.920
do we participate in? So the
Scotist could never answer what precisely we're participating
1500
02:13:50.960 --> 02:13:54.760
in. And that's why, quite
literally, the debate with a barley of
1501
02:13:54.840 --> 02:13:58.000
mind just shifts right into what it
is we participate in. So even if
1502
02:13:58.039 --> 02:14:01.840
you wanted to say these distinctions are
quote formal, that doesn't do any good
1503
02:14:01.880 --> 02:14:07.680
to talk about what we participate in. So do we participate in a formal
1504
02:14:07.760 --> 02:14:13.319
conceptual distinction? Formal or conceptual?
Formal? Formalities? The wall Scotas will
1505
02:14:13.319 --> 02:14:18.159
simply tell you formalities are not purely
mental conceptions, right, I meant to
1506
02:14:18.439 --> 02:14:22.000
You're correct, I meant to say
formal or conceptual, Like, it won't
1507
02:14:22.039 --> 02:14:26.279
matter how you catch that out,
because the debate ends up being do we
1508
02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:31.399
participate in God's glory or not.
Right, but I'm still okay, So
1509
02:14:31.560 --> 02:14:35.199
I guess you now, okay,
So what would you say if I simply
1510
02:14:35.239 --> 02:14:39.239
say that it can saptual distinction is
a distinction with a basis in the thing
1511
02:14:39.319 --> 02:14:43.840
itself or a basis in reality.
Right, Why do I need to draw
1512
02:14:43.920 --> 02:14:48.720
a big onto logical division so to
speak, between the essence? So just
1513
02:14:48.880 --> 02:14:50.239
you just you, just you just
are you just said the very thing I
1514
02:14:50.359 --> 02:14:56.640
reject. So distinction does not entail
composition or division. That's fundamental to art
1515
02:14:56.640 --> 02:14:58.600
theology. So the fact that I
say that there is a difference between us
1516
02:14:58.640 --> 02:15:03.760
and and an energy does not until
division. So you just imported the Roman
1517
02:15:03.840 --> 02:15:07.000
Catholic type of or the thing is
though I'm asking you because you need to
1518
02:15:07.079 --> 02:15:11.920
divide the essence and the energies for
you participate in my aspect. I know,
1519
02:15:11.119 --> 02:15:15.800
we don't have to know. That
doesn't entail division. Distinction does not
1520
02:15:15.920 --> 02:15:20.720
inteil composition division, just like right, No, that's but that's just that's
1521
02:15:20.920 --> 02:15:24.920
okay. The just listen, how
you participate in one aspect of a different
1522
02:15:24.960 --> 02:15:30.600
ontological being. It's not a different
it's not a different ontological being because the
1523
02:15:30.680 --> 02:15:35.159
being of God let me, let
me explain between the same being in the
1524
02:15:35.239 --> 02:15:39.319
same way that there's a discision between
the father and the son. That's ontological,
1525
02:15:39.640 --> 02:15:41.439
right, But we wouldn't say that's
an ontological distinction. Well, there
1526
02:15:41.479 --> 02:15:46.800
are not three beings, right.
Ontology is not only related to the word
1527
02:15:46.920 --> 02:15:50.680
being. So again you're you're assuming
your metaphors. Well, again, the
1528
02:15:50.800 --> 02:15:54.680
being of God is an energy for
us, it's not his essence. So
1529
02:15:56.000 --> 02:15:58.960
you think being is simply the energy, right, You don't think you can
1530
02:15:58.039 --> 02:16:03.239
predicate that energy. You can't predicate
anything of the divine essence. You can't
1531
02:16:03.279 --> 02:16:09.319
predicate the essence exists. The existence
of God is also an energy. That's
1532
02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:15.600
the cappation argument is wrong when he
said that that the glorious right. He
1533
02:16:15.680 --> 02:16:18.079
says that the energies in the essence
of God are united in one existence.
1534
02:16:18.119 --> 02:16:20.560
Would you say he was wrong,
Well, the way that they're united is
1535
02:16:20.640 --> 02:16:24.439
in the mode of the persons that
have the essence and that the energy.
1536
02:16:24.479 --> 02:16:28.600
And by the way, if you
recapass his essay, he shows that Scolarios
1537
02:16:28.319 --> 02:16:33.719
rejects the the tomistic view of saying
that the distinction is conceptual. He says
1538
02:16:33.760 --> 02:16:39.280
it's a real distinction. Sure,
I never said Sclorus was a thumbis thum.
1539
02:16:41.000 --> 02:16:45.959
My point is that the essence of
what Scolarius rejects an Aquinas is what
1540
02:16:46.079 --> 02:16:50.559
we what I reject that there's no
real essence in ury distinction. Right,
1541
02:16:50.680 --> 02:16:54.840
So have you risk would you understand
him to affirm a real distinction between the
1542
02:16:54.959 --> 02:17:01.000
essence and the energies? No,
I understand that for him, formal distinction
1543
02:17:01.200 --> 02:17:05.159
is his own category. Understand that, right, So if we take his
1544
02:17:05.399 --> 02:17:09.000
category, you know he's an actual
saint, right, and we understand I
1545
02:17:09.040 --> 02:17:09.959
don't acception. No, I don't
accept that he is. He's not a
1546
02:17:11.040 --> 02:17:13.719
saint. So you wouldn't accept laws
is a saying, right? No,
1547
02:17:13.799 --> 02:17:15.920
no, no, no, I
thought you said, excuse me, I
1548
02:17:16.000 --> 02:17:18.440
thought you said I thought you said
Scots chill out. I thought you said
1549
02:17:18.440 --> 02:17:22.840
Scotus my bit. Yeah, scalauris
my bit. There are very similar names.
1550
02:17:22.879 --> 02:17:24.319
I understand. Yeah, now we
understand he is, Yes, he's
1551
02:17:24.360 --> 02:17:30.079
a saint. Yeah, yeah,
okay. So would you say Scalaorius would
1552
02:17:30.159 --> 02:17:37.479
affirm a real distinction between the essence
and the energies. He affirms the palamite
1553
02:17:37.479 --> 02:17:43.239
position, right, But you would
not would you say that's a real distinction
1554
02:17:43.360 --> 02:17:46.399
between the essence and the energies.
Yeah, because that's the whole purpose of
1555
02:17:46.440 --> 02:17:50.239
the whole teakon Po thesis. Well, yeah, so did you did you
1556
02:17:50.280 --> 02:17:54.920
read the t on p thesis?
Yeah? I've read his being a naming,
1557
02:17:54.040 --> 02:17:56.959
Essence and Energy of God and then
his second later work what are Divine
1558
02:17:58.079 --> 02:18:01.559
Energies? Right? Which is which
must small a dissertation because I want to
1559
02:18:01.600 --> 02:18:05.200
talk about those two things there.
So first of all, well, I
1560
02:18:05.280 --> 02:18:07.959
have a question for you though,
right, Can I ask you a question?
1561
02:18:09.840 --> 02:18:13.920
Sure? Yeah. By the way, so if you've read that much,
1562
02:18:13.959 --> 02:18:16.200
then you've probably read the Capus essay
right on essence energy, in the
1563
02:18:16.399 --> 02:18:22.239
in the in the Theology of Saying
Gnatus Glorious. I've read the half half
1564
02:18:22.319 --> 02:18:26.120
the introduction, like the historical aspect. Yes, I haven't read his Well,
1565
02:18:26.159 --> 02:18:28.799
this is just a paper theesis,
right, because I don't see the
1566
02:18:28.799 --> 02:18:31.840
relevance in his thesis. Well,
this is just a paper from a Uni
1567
02:18:31.959 --> 02:18:37.799
eight arguing that huh. I know, yeah, capsure is a union.
1568
02:18:37.840 --> 02:18:39.879
I am more of that. No, but I'm saying that this is just
1569
02:18:39.959 --> 02:18:43.239
a paper where he makes the point
that all those Scolarius likes a lot of
1570
02:18:43.280 --> 02:18:50.200
what's an aquinas The chief thing that
he disagrees with is Thomas's position on equating
1571
02:18:50.280 --> 02:18:54.120
attributes with essence. Yeah, I'm
aware. The thing is, I'm not
1572
02:18:54.200 --> 02:18:56.639
positing Thomas Aguainance's position though, Okay, so if I'm if we're going to
1573
02:18:56.719 --> 02:19:01.760
argue the Scotti's position, then it's
going to turn because even Bradshaw says,
1574
02:19:01.159 --> 02:19:07.440
yeah, I'm not even positing the
disposition. I'm positive in Scalorus's position,
1575
02:19:09.840 --> 02:19:16.959
but Scolaris's position is I would argue
the Palomite position, right, and then
1576
02:19:16.040 --> 02:19:20.079
we go back to it's a real
distinction, and then I'm simply asking,
1577
02:19:20.680 --> 02:19:22.000
and then we go back to the
same topic of discussion. I don't really
1578
02:19:22.040 --> 02:19:28.440
see the relevance and talking about Schloris
was on the Thomas. I don't understand
1579
02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:31.079
why you're trying to argue the Scolarian
position. Then what's the point? Because
1580
02:19:31.200 --> 02:19:35.280
my right, if you read if
we understand Schalorous right in his third tome,
1581
02:19:37.000 --> 02:19:41.280
in the sixth Tone, right,
his commentaries on the Condoyos the barlum
1582
02:19:41.479 --> 02:19:45.600
quinas, Yeah, I can dinos. I pronounced things wrong, my bad,
1583
02:19:45.719 --> 02:19:48.040
but yeah, so we would understand. He specifically writes that a real
1584
02:19:48.079 --> 02:19:52.959
distinction between essence and energies between creatures
is because of their deficiency, and that
1585
02:19:54.000 --> 02:19:56.760
does not apply to God. Right. And if we read later on in
1586
02:19:56.840 --> 02:19:58.360
this third tone, page two hudred
and twenty six, he said that a
1587
02:19:58.399 --> 02:20:03.719
foam of distinct neither makes a division
of reality or a composition. But it's
1588
02:20:05.319 --> 02:20:07.040
yeah, and that's everything I've been
saying the whole time. That this distinction
1589
02:20:07.120 --> 02:20:09.920
does not intel composition division. That's
what I've been saying, right, But
1590
02:20:11.040 --> 02:20:13.959
that would not apply for what's understood
to be a real distinction. That's why
1591
02:20:15.000 --> 02:20:18.120
I said at the beginning that using
the terminology real distinction is really confusing because
1592
02:20:18.159 --> 02:20:22.680
that's a later scholastic definition, that's
post aquinas. So I said at the
1593
02:20:22.760 --> 02:20:26.600
very beginning that the level of the
distinction is the same for the energies as
1594
02:20:26.639 --> 02:20:31.840
it is between the persons. Yeah, but that differs among positions, like
1595
02:20:31.879 --> 02:20:35.799
I've said. Okay, so let's
make it really clear. Then, in
1596
02:20:35.920 --> 02:20:39.200
Leviticus nine, we have the manifestation
of the glory of God in time and
1597
02:20:39.319 --> 02:20:45.360
space, and the Israelites bow down
and worship it. What is that?
1598
02:20:46.520 --> 02:20:50.639
Sure? We say that's the energy. Okay, so it's not the essence,
1599
02:20:50.719 --> 02:20:54.920
right, Sure, But with your
decent on A thirteen fifty one has
1600
02:20:54.000 --> 02:20:58.799
to be contemplated with it. What
has to be contemplated with it? The
1601
02:20:58.959 --> 02:21:01.440
essence always has to be contemplated with
with I didn't. I didn't say that
1602
02:21:01.520 --> 02:21:05.479
it's not contemplated with it. But
you're not participating in it. Yeah,
1603
02:21:05.559 --> 02:21:09.879
sure, I'm simply saying that you
need to clarify you're not but not participating
1604
02:21:09.879 --> 02:21:11.959
in the identity. Yes, it's
not right. So you're participating in the
1605
02:21:13.159 --> 02:21:18.600
energy, and that's why the fourth
of the Palomite Synods condemns the tomistic position
1606
02:21:18.840 --> 02:21:24.280
of Precoreos Prokeros. Right, but
you wouldn't say that Barlum himself was a
1607
02:21:24.360 --> 02:21:33.719
Thomas. No. I think he
was a Greek monk or monastic, or
1608
02:21:33.760 --> 02:21:35.920
I forget exactly what is. He
might have been an aut
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:49.679
The the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
2
00:00:53.359 --> 00:01:30.480
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
3
00:01:30.159 --> 00:02:19.240
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
4
00:02:22.199 --> 00:03:15.479
the the the the the the the
the the the the the bah. All
5
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:29.960
right, what's up? Everybody?
Meltdown time? So people have said for
6
00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:37.280
last few weeks because they want to
get attention, they want clicks and whatever.
7
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Oh, you want debate this guy, you want debate this guy.
8
00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:46.199
So I've talked about having debates with
this guy for months. He would only
9
00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.159
want he only wanted to debate the
Philly Oakuay. I wasn't interested in that
10
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.800
debate because he had already had that
debate with UBI. We did a whole
11
00:03:53.800 --> 00:04:00.120
review of that debate with David Rhan
and so I told him, I want
12
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to debate the thing that scholasticism rests
on, which is the self evident maxims,
13
00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:17.040
the first principles of your system,
and if that falls, scholasticism isn't
14
00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:20.439
true. He will not debate that. I've asked him for at least a
15
00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:24.600
year now, maybe eight nine months
to do it. He won't do it.
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00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.079
So he does a stream talking about
me or something. I don't know.
17
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.399
I didn't watch the whole stream.
Somebody sent it to him and said,
18
00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:34.160
hey, he's talking about you.
Do you want to hop on?
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And I went over there and said, I'm ready. I'll come over here
20
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.800
and debate you. So notice he
won't come over to my end and debate.
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He won't debate me. I'll go
to his home court and argue with
22
00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:56.399
him because when he's making this new
regurgitated argument for philly oquay. Which keep
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00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.680
in mind, these are people who
think that citing authorities counts as arguments right
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because they still exist in the Middle
Ages. They think it's the year thirteen
25
00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:09.600
hundred, even though the Vatican doesn't
care about Tomism anymore, even though their
26
00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:15.120
whole sect has moved past Tomism,
literally doesn't care about it at all.
27
00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.839
These people believe and larp as if
it's the year fourteen hundred and their heads.
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They're living in a scriptorium online,
and no one else in the rest
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00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:34.560
of the Roman world in terms of
power, authority, and status, cares
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00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:39.920
about Tomism, So it only exists
in the trid world. And why is
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the trid world melting down of late? Why are they having such issues well,
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it's not just because of the obvious
absurdities that we point out with their
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00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:57.240
saints, which they have to hold
to Margaret Mary Alacoquay's miracles and visions,
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00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:03.879
because her sainctity so called, is
actually part of the ordinary magistrum. And
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we can look at those documents that
discuss that in a minute. But imagine
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saying that, well, I don't
have to believe her visions. I just
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00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:17.120
can accept that she's a saint.
Well, if her visions aren't true,
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then she was a deluded woman.
And according to Durami thirteen, Derami eighteen
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00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:28.079
Galatians one, false prophecies and false
visions make you a fraud, not a
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00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:34.279
saint. So it's totally inconsistent to
think that, oh, I can just
41
00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:40.439
accept Margaret Mary Alacoquay as a saint, but not all the visions about sacred
42
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heart and that Jesus supposedly told her
to carve his name into her chest and
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sign a blood packed with the flowing
blood, and then afterwards she reopened the
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wounds to make it bleed more.
This is the Roman Catholic idea of sanctity.
45
00:06:56.839 --> 00:07:02.360
So there's something about the I mean, they are gluttons for punishment,
46
00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:09.040
and I guess that's why they like
to continue to be punished in these discussions
47
00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:15.480
when they make really fundamental mistakes.
And what he's done here is a word
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concept fallacy. So he thought that
because there was discussion of relations in the
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Cappadoceans, which is very frequent in
the Orthodox tradition, we know all about
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this, we talk about all the
time. I've had doctor Bob Branson on
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many, many times to discuss the
Cappadocian triadology. That's what his dissertation is
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about. And I've read a significant
portion of the Cappadocian Corpus that's in English,
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and their discussion is about relations of
origin. Hypostatic properties are the foundation
54
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for the relations of origin. And
as the famous Orthodoxy Elergi of Ladimirlowski said,
55
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:09.720
a person is a subject, not
a relation. So you can't identify
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persons even by relations. The persons
have relations, but they can't be identified
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primarily by a relation, because a
relation is a predicate and a person or
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a hypostasis is a subject. So
they certainly have relations, and they certainly
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have relations that are fundamental, such
as the son is the son of the
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father, so praternity to filiation.
Those are certainly relations, but the relation
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is not the person. And that's
why when Aquinas says persona at rolatio,
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the Orthodox tradition always took issue with
that, because a relation, again is
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a predicate and not a subject.
A subject is a person, the subject
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Bob, the subject Bill, the
subject son of God. Those are divine
65
00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.879
subjects in the trinity. For us, a person is a subject or an
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agent, and a relation is something
that a person, a subject or agent
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has. But because of the tendency
towards collapsing collapsing distinctions into the essence Intnism,
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Augustinianism and then Tomism has always had
a struggle and a tendency to speculate
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and want to come up with ways
to make these distinctions other than and outside
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of the relations of origin and hypostatic
properties that the Cappadocians and their theology ends
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up having dogmatized at the constantinople one. This is why the Cappadocians, for
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example, speak of the Father unanimously
in the writings as the soul cause.
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The hyposide of property that picks them
out is soul cause fount ark and ark,
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et cetera. Source, that's his
hypothetic property. Basil famously says that
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the son is the son because he's
the eternally generated son of the father.
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The spirit is the spirit because he's
eternally spirated. And the famous quote from
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Basil is that there is a difference
between spiration and generation. We know what
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the difference is, we do not
know. And that's pretty common. I
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mean, that's very well known.
It's a very common. So when you
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get to stricter definitions or ideas of
simplicity that we find in origin Plutonis and
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then in Augustine, and that definition
is essentially repeated between those three people.
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And when simplicity is catched out mainly
as not having distinctions, an absolute unity
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without distinctions, you then have a
challenge without presupposition. That's a metaphysical presupposition.
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And the rod of Galwitz's thesis and
the Bradshaw book showed that that's not
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the approach that the Cavedocians did.
And even the Kongar paper that we're talking
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about, which makes the point that
there's a difference between relations of opposition and
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relations of origin between august and the
Cavedocians, admits this. So the funniest
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part I think of the whole thing
was just simply that he thought that relations
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just always meant a relationship of opposition. When what happens in the course of
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Trinitarian theology is that the Augustinian definition
of simplicity, which then led to other
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ideas like philly oaquey in on the
Trinity, leads him to speculating about other
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possible ways to distinguish the persons.
So, for example, if we wanted
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to distinguish father son in his holy
holy Spirit, but there is a philioque,
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Now there's a new relationship and a
new property, you could say that
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father and son have that spirit lacks
or if the father has a power,
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Augustine argued, then it seems to
necessitate the son should also have that power
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too, or else there would be
a kind of subordination. But Augustine apparently
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missed the fact that, well,
if the spirit lacks that power, then
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he's also subordinated. And that's the
basis for namely, the power of causing
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a person. So it's to confuse
the hypostatic properties with the essential properties or
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attributes. The essential attributes are common
to all three persons. That's why the
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Cappadocians say that anything you say about
the Trinity, it's either a property or
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power positive property or power that one
of them has unique to that one,
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or it's common to all three persons. That's a Cappadot rule or law.
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So, for example, causing a
person can't be something that two persons have,
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because that would mean that it's an
essential property. If two have it,
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three must have it. If it's
an essential property, then the Holy
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Spirit spir rates himself and nobody believes
that except maybe idiot Roman Catholics. I
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don't know. But the whole point
here is just simply that monarchical trinitarianism in
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the East and the Cappadoceans does not
struggle with and have the same problems and
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issues that later Latin theology has because
of their assumptions about simplicity. Now,
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if the debate really progresses to where
I would like it to debate to go,
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then what happens is that we realize
that, well, we all know
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that the Plutonian definition of what simplicity
is is true, do we? I
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mean? Rodshaw's whole book Ariosol East
and West is premised on arguing that the
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Capbudotionans don't go with a plutonium definition
of simplicity. Their definition of simplicity starts
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with whether or not God is acted
upon or whether he acts, And it's
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obvious why the Cappudotions wouldn't want to
start with a radical essentialist identity thesis view
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of simplicity like we see it fourth
Lattering Council with Lombard, because it's very
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difficult to have a triad when you
start with an absolutely simple essence, it's
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your starting point. Triad becomes something
tertiary, something secondary, something that's like
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a diminished status. But regardless,
all of this was none of this was
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really what this issue was about,
because I left to comment saying that he
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misunderstood relations of opposition in Augustinian theology
and why it was used and why it
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arose versus relations in the Cappadocians,
which is primarily relations of origin opposition.
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As Orthodox theologians have criticized this position
in the past, notes relates to two
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things, to a diad, So
if the trinity is really a triad,
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it doesn't make a whole lot of
sense to utilize the idea of opposition.
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And by opposition, I mean the
metaphysical baggage that comes along with dialectical opposition.
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And that's precisely what you see in
Augustine. And if you doubt me
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on this again, Congar wrote a
whole essay just surveying the difference between the
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Augustinian and Cappadocian approaches. It's not
even really that controversial. But what's happened,
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and this is what always happens with
the Tomas and with these guys,
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is that they utilize word concept fallacies
where they see this word here, they
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see the word over here, they
then assume that it's all talking about the
136
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:14.360
same theological meaning. And they do
that because of what they're epistemology. They
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00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:19.440
have an empiricist based epistemology. They
believe in the peripatetic axiom that there's nothing
138
00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:23.320
in the intellect that is not first
in the senses. And that's a quote
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00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:32.000
from Aquinas and de ver Atat citing
Aristotle. It's called the peripatetic axiom.
140
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.440
But no Toomas, no scholastic will
be able to give an account for their
141
00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:42.720
starting points, for their self evident
principles. And I can just bring up
142
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:48.080
all day long the criterion problem,
which they actually like to dismiss, even
143
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.639
though I shared a paper from a
famous Catholic cardinal who cited at the very
144
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.919
top of the of the paper talking
about how the criterion problem dominates philosophy.
145
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.600
So they don't even care about what
their own academic say. They just handwaig
146
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.599
whatever's a problem to them. And
they again, they think they're living in
147
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the fourteen hundreds, so they don't
have to answer or reply to any arguments
148
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:14.759
post fourteen hundred. Why because a
quitiness bro because being bro And we saw
149
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.799
the other day the Thomas that was
talking smack all day, he just didn't
150
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.319
come. He said, I will
come and debate you at ten o'clock your
151
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:27.279
time or whatever. No show.
Wagner's been saying, oh, you won't
152
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:32.160
debate me. He's scared. Dollar're
scared. So I have to go to
153
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:36.440
his stream to debate him because I'm
scared when I've been asking him to come
154
00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.559
debate these topics endlessly. Now,
why would I talk about epistemology? You
155
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.119
just wanted to deflect. Oh,
you just wanted to deflict. If we
156
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:48.440
get to an issue where, for
example, the Thomas says, well,
157
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.680
we know that this is what simplicity
means, because it has to mean this,
158
00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:57.279
because that's what simplicity is. They
have a metaphysical assumption. But if
159
00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:03.720
I have a different metaphysical assumption about
simplicity and about energies and about God's unity,
160
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:08.240
et cetera, et cetera, how
do we resolve this question? Well,
161
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:12.440
ultimately it's going to go back to
something more fundamental, because they're putting
162
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.559
the metaphysical cart before the epistemic course, which is what's our starting point for
163
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:25.000
going about these issues. For me, in my position, it's divine revelation.
164
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.920
It's not the first principles of Aristotle. I'm not going to let aristotles
165
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:36.799
philosophy dictate what things are possible metaphysically
in the Bible. And this is precisely
166
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:42.960
why they don't believe in the Theophanes. And I think it's going to be
167
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:49.440
obvious that they then must depart from
what is listed in scripture. And that's
168
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.279
why I'm going to be from now, I'm just going to start going to
169
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.680
all the texts about God's glory being
present in time and space, because that's
170
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.920
all that's needed to refute these idiots. Now they're gonna say, but it's
171
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self evident that something that's absolutely simple
can't have distinctions and blah, blah blah
172
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.440
blah blah. Okay, but now
you're denying the Trinity, dummy, Like,
173
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what are you talking about? So
we're going to open it up.
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We have some of the fans from
that sphere. I don't want to limit
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it to that though, So if
we have people that want to come on
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and discuss and defend other top topics, options are there as well. If
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you want to talk about Islam,
Protestantism, Gnosticism, Unitarianism, we can
178
00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:42.640
go into all of those as well. As my microlow. That's weird.
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Oh I know why it's low.
When you hop on stream Yard, it
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automatically, it automatically de boosts your
microphone. So that's better. Yeah,
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thank you for that. So his
stupid ass stream Yard or muted my microphone
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when I when I went on there. But let's give an example. So
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here's a Roman Catholic website. Before
we open it up to the Thomas here
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that want to talk this, here's
a Catholic a website doing the very thing
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that we see these people trying to
do. And perhaps he even utilized this
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website, who knows. But this
website argues, for example, that the
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Philly OK Way is mentioned for example
in Toledo, and so I think he's
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citing Denzinger here, whoever wrote this, and it's talking about how there's a
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there's a relation. It's kind of
mentioned in Toledo. You could say that
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there's a way they think to distinguish
the persons via relations of opposition. And
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you can see that the fact that
it's cited in Toledo, which is one
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of the first Philly oak Way supporting
councils, you can see that the concern
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is obviously associated with the mine simplicity
and defending philioque. But then this,
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even this Catholic guy notes that the
Greek fathers understood that it accurately describing the
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Trinity with the terms which have become
common is difficult. Gregory the theologian says,
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for example, what is it to
be preceding? You explain the in
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generacy of the Father, and then
I will give you a biological account of
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the son's begetting and the Spirit's proceeding. Now understand this is making the point
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I made a few minutes ago that
for the Cappadocians that there's a distinction between
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generation and procession. We know and
believe what that is. We do not
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know, and so this even this
Catholic website is noting that, right,
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And then Gregory goes on to say, we don't know. We're not told
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the specific distinction of the nature of
generation versus firation, but rather it is
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revealed to us that we know there
is a son and that there is a
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holy Spirit. Now, notice this
guy does the same thing that the Roman
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Catholics do. Here where this other
guy? So this guy he left so
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that we got a Toomas, I'm
about to go to you. You've been
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saying you want a debate, and
then he runs away. These are a
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bunch of women, like they're a
bunch of effeminate, like just ridiculous people.
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That's why they all had to come
on in the comments and say that
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I got cooked when he booted me
from his stream. So we'll play his
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clip here in a second. But
I notice here what the Catholics going to
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do the same move to try to
find in the Eastern Fathers, this idea
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of relations of opposition, which is
not there. There's relations of origin,
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and we're going to see that.
They also have this quote they're passing around
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y'all, thank you for coming back
critical Tomas and we'll go to you.
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In a second, Regomnissa says,
the person of the Father is begotten,
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and the Holy Spirit proceeds. Is
Therefore, because the cause of the persons
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is one, we say that he
is the one God and that he exists
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an eternity with these others. So
notice that that's relations of origin. You
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see that the persons of the Godhead
do not differ in time or in space,
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or in occupation or in activity.
They only differ between them in that
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the Father is a father and not
son. The Son is son and not
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father. Holy Spirit is neither father
nor son. So you can talk about
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distinctions, you can talk about them
having a differentiation of relation. But in
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this very comment, it is not
relations of opposition the way that it's formulated
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in the Augustinian arguments for filioque in
divine simplicity. For example, in the
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Kongar paper when he explains this difference, there was a specific Augustinian quote I
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wanted to read here. So by
the way, this whole paper talks about
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what I'm talking about, which shows
that it's not it's not even really a
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controversial thing here. It does I
think this is it? Augustine says,
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here it is in day trinitade.
Augustin takes Biblical Texas his pointed departure to
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show that they disprove the Aryan position. He then goes on to consider the
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problem if an intellectually valid agreement between
the unity and diversity is necessary. If
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there is that, if it's necessary, then at the same time sufficient to
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distinguish between absolute and relative terms.
The terms father's on the spirit distinguish the
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persons, and they are relative,
and they are relative in that they affirm
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the person's by opposing one to the
other. The problem is that it is
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true to say that there is a
relationship and that they do oppose one to
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another, but relations of opposition is
not a sufficient means to distinguish the persons
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without relations of origin. That's the
whole point. And Conggar goes on to
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make that point to say that the
competition fathers, even though he thinks that
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they're intending to express the same thing, they don't really differ from one another.
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I think Augustine does differ obviously disagree
with Cungar. But since Augustine does
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not express a consistent view of relations
of origin to a sole cause, this
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leads to difficulties in trying to explain. Well, then perhaps it's what differentiates
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son from spirit is that one is
from one and the other is from two.
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But that's a new additional property or
attribute, right that again subordinate spirit,
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because to be from one rather than
to be from two isn't really a
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consistent It doesn't really tell us anything
without all the other things. And also
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it violates the earlier competition principle that
there's nothing there's no property or attribute that
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two persons share that one lacks.
So being from two is not some positive
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property. And by the way,
it's it is a positive property because it's
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the father and the Son, according
to Lines in Florence, together are a
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single principle of the power inspiration of
the eternal existence of the Spirit. So
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the Father and the Son together,
as the councils of Line in Florence say,
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form a single principle. So there's
a singularity that's common to father and
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son. That is the power that
gives existence, eternal existence to the Holy
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Spirit. And it's something then that
the Holy Spirit clearly does not have.
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And then he goes on to talk
about the fact that part of the reason
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for this is that the Cappetitions begin
with person in their triology, and the
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Thomas and the Augustinians begin their triology
typically with essence. Yeah, exactly,
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So what I said isn't really even
that controversial. Now, I want to
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talk briefly about before we go to
critical Thomas the last point here, and
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I'll play his clip later. But
oh crap, let me do that.
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So their argument is that there's a
quote from Basil, and the quote that
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they're passing around is kind of bizarre
because it's not worded the way that the
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text that it supposedly is coming from
is worded. So let's look at this
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quote really quick, and you'll notice
that it's just talking about hyposthetic properties.
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It is not saying that relations of
opposition is the primary way to distinguish the
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person's. In fact, it doesn't
even really say that at all. In
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the nature of distinguishing marks, that's
for us, that's the hyposthetic properties,
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and that's what Basil's talking about here, to show otherness in the identity of
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the sub substance. So he's he's
saying that the hypostatic properties mark out what's
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distinct even though there's an identity of
substance or essence in the trinity. As
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for the distinguishing marks themselves, that
is, the hypestetic properties, they are
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often contradistinguished from one one from another
such that they are separated to the point
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of being contraries. So they are
contraries because they're of father versus son.
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It's not dialectical opposition, and that's
what is in the Augustinian and Tonistic position.
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How are they separated, Well,
they're separated because of the hypostatic properties
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are markers. They certainly do not
rupture the unity of the substance, as
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with winged and footed, and aquatic
and terrestrial, and rational and animal,
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Since there is one substance that underlies
them, these distinguishing marks do not make
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the substance foreign to itself. So, in other words, the essence that
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the Sun has is not different than
the essence that the Father has. Nor
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are they persuaded to join each other
in a kind of rebellion. They implant
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the activity of the things that they
identify as a kind of light in our
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soul and a guide to an unders
standing attainable by our minds. But you
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know, Meius, having transferred the
opposition of the distinguishing marks to the substance.
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So it's not relations of opposition in
the Augustinian sense, it's distinguishing relations
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via relations of origin. He just
uses the word opposition and he uses the
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word contrary, so that's too contrast. He takes this from the starting point
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of umpiety, scarring us with sophisms
as if we were children, the light
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should indeed be something other than the
unbegotteness. So Unmius, as you guys
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know, was a radical area.
And you know mes argue that the light
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that is the Sun is radically different
than the light that is the Father.
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So when the creed says God from
God, light from light, Youunomius is
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rejecting that. But this is not
the same thing as Conguard emits as relation
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of opposition as a means to distinguish
the person's to help save the doctrine of
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the filioqui. So and note two
that in that in that distinction, Basil
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made it clear that the distinguishing marks
or opposition is not a dialectical metaphysical opposition.
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It's a distinction of relations to the
origin of the Father. If anyone
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wants to accept that which is true, namely that begotten and unbegotten, their
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distinctive features that enable identification and are
observed in the substance, which is the
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Unomian position, which leads to the
clear and unconfused. Note he's saying that
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if you if you don't make these
distinctions, you'll be a Eunomian. This
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leads to the clear, unconfused notion
of the Father and the Son. Then
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you will escape the danger of impiety
and preserve the logical coherence in his reasoning.
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The distinctive features, which are like
characters and forms observed in the substance
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the differentiate. So he's talking about
the what the hypostatic markers or properties are,
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beginning with the person of the Father
and not the essence. So you
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understand that from the outset, the
ordo theology of the Latin Church is wrong
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because it tends, especially after our
accidents in Middle Ages, to begin with
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the essence as the starting point.
Then you have the difficulty in the challenge
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of distinguishing within the triad a reality
of threeeness. But for the Cappadocians it
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begins with the person of the Father. As the other article that we just
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read admitted right, the other Catholic
Guy's article not Kungar, but the other
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one, noting that the Eastern fathers
begin with the concept of the person of
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the Father. This is monarchical trinitarianism. There's one God because there's one Father.
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That's what the Creed says. I
believe in one God, the Father.
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Paul says, we have one Lord
and Father of our Jesus, of
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Lord Jesus Christ. So for us, trinitarian theology begins with the person of
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the Father, and we do not
know the divine essence, so it doesn't
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make sense to even start any theology
with the divine essence at all. He
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says that these distinguishing characteristics, for
example, pick out the person, and
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yet the sameness of the substance or
nature is common to all three, whereas
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fatherhood and sonship are distinguishing marks.
The combination of both that is common and
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the unique we arrive at the comprehension
of truth. So all he's saying is
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that distinguishing marks of paternity and sonship
are relations. They're real relations. They're
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not fake or dislogical or conceptual.
They're real relations. But remember, persona
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at relatio cannot be true. A
relation is a predicate and not a subject,
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and the persons are the subjects,
they're the agents. Consequently, if
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you hear unbegotten light, you think
of the Father. When you hear begotten
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light, you think of the sun. In so far as they are light
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from light, or light and light, there's no contrarity between them, whereas
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in so far as they forgot and
begotten, one observes the opposition. So
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00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:35.320
this is just to distinguish them one
from another. But because being not the
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other is not a clear marker,
right, because le let me give an
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example of this. Each of the
persons is not the other two, right,
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But that doesn't tell me anything.
That's a true proposition. It is
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true to say that the Father is
not the Son or the Spirit, but
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that doesn't work as an actual concrete
thing to tell me anything, because all
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three of them equally share the proposition, not the other two. So even
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though it's true, it doesn't really
work as any kind of indicator or marker.
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And strictly speaking, dialectical opposition,
which is what we're talking about and
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what's imported by the Augustinian position,
only becomes necessary due to the radical,
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divine simplicity positions that they start with
if you start your trinitary theology with the
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person of the Father, right,
what does Palama say? God did not
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00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:31.159
say I am it? In Exodus
three in the in the Burning Bush,
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he said I am he, meaning
that we begin with the personhood of the
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Father, not the essence. So
using the term like an even using the
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term opposition, does not equate to
the dialectical idea of relations of opposition that
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comes about in later theology as congo
or even admits h critical tomist. Yeah,
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00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:23.760
go ahead, yeah, what's up? Man? I can't really hear
355
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:34.679
anything. I can hear you.
Huh, come out, come back in.
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00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:59.199
I mean we can all hear you. M h autocratic Go ahead,
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00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.840
man, I'm you Hey, j
how are you tonight? What's up?
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00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.079
I just had some questions, like, of course I'm in the Orthodox Church,
359
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canonical Russian Orthodox Church currently in most
of now actually, but I've been
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like looking at the Orthodox anymore and
some people online, and I'd be curious
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to what you would say to the
response to old calendars or like some people
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call themselves true Orthodox. Yeah,
I mean that's a separate topic. We
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can deal with that. There's some
essays that cover that topic. But that's
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not the topic for today. But
thank you for for that critical you want
365
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:50.880
to try again. Thanks, there's
some Manuka honey in that. Yeah,
366
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.599
what's up? Can you hear me? Yeah? How you doing? I'm
367
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:58.239
good? How are you? I'm
good. I watched your debate with Christian
368
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:04.199
Blagom, and I have a couple
of questions. Sure, so you're talking
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about you were saying that if the
persons are distinguished by the relations, it
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doesn't necessarily follow the like relatively like, relatively opposing each other? Is that
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your position? Or so relative opposition
is what's used by later Augustinian post Augustinian
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theological argumentation to deal with problems,
for challenges to trinitarianism or to the filioquay.
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So it's not a thing that you
find in the capp of Doceians.
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You find one reference to the word
opposition, but that's not relations of opposition.
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Okay, So what do you think
relative Okay? So I'm going to
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go what do you think relative oppositions
are? And what do you think the
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church brothers mean when they say positions? Since the properties, the formal properties,
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in their essence, don't import any
relations, and they don't make room
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for any relative opposition, So what
would you say, hold on, what
380
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:04.199
do you mean? What doesn't make
room for that? So for example,
381
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.639
like God's divine wisdom and gods divine
being, or God's divine wisdom and God's
382
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:13.400
divine truth, things like formal properties
like that, they don't import a real
383
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:17.559
relation between each other, the logical
proprelations. So there's no like relative opposition
384
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.400
there. But because the person's important, a relative opposition than the subsistent relations.
385
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:28.039
But you don't hold that, we
believe that the attributes or the energies
386
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.119
actually are really distinct. So I
don't have a problem. I don't have
387
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:36.639
the inconsistent position of saying that the
attributes are all synonymous with each other and
388
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:40.000
with the divine essence, but also
the persons really are distinct. That's the
389
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:45.079
term mystic position. Wait, you
believe that the attributes to really so you
390
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.599
believe that God's wisdom is not identified
to goodness at all? Correct? Okay,
391
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:55.880
So then how would you respond when
someone tells you that you know,
392
00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:00.760
you believe in a composite being.
Yeah, because I don't believe in a
393
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:04.960
composite being any more than you do. Because you believe that the persons are
394
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.679
really not identical to each other.
So you believe there's a real distinction between
395
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.960
the father and the son. Makes
sense, That does, because it's the
396
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:17.320
very argument that's had for centuries about
this issue. No, So composition comes
397
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:22.840
from a dependency relation in the form
of that the essential properties and something.
398
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.480
So the reason why I'm a composite
being is because I'm a black man.
399
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.719
My skin color is dependent on my
substance, which is me. Now,
400
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:36.320
there's nothing you're saying. You're not
a composite you are You said you're not
401
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:38.360
or are a composite being? No, I said I am a composite giving
402
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:45.199
oa. I agree with that,
right, So when it comes to god,
403
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:46.920
we're not going to say obviously for
the film, as I suppose,
404
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:52.119
because I don't take this position,
but that all the formal properties are only
405
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:53.800
like a virgin these things. I'm
sure you know this here, Yeah,
406
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:58.400
of course, and we think that
that. So then hold on, so
407
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:02.639
how does it need to moveism?
Sorry, because it's not consistent to say
408
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.800
that the attributes are all identical and
identical to the essence, and that the
409
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.400
persons are also strictly identical to the
essence. But the persons are distinct amongst
410
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.920
themselves. I mean, have you
read any of the topics, any of
411
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.440
the discussion of this topic. Right, I've read. I've read a couple
412
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:22.400
of papers. I've read this sc
with theologia, I've read Aquinas Suma.
413
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.920
I've read a couple of papers.
You've read the Aquinas Suma. I'm saying,
414
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:29.360
have you read on the debate between
East and West on this topic?
415
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:31.320
Now, have you read a bunch
of of toll Oh? Yeah, typically
416
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:36.039
the East, of my opinion,
no disrespect. They typically just cry about
417
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.079
things that are not relevant. Okay, Well, let's let's talk about do
418
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:42.639
you think the Bible is relevant?
I think the Bible is relevant. I
419
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:45.599
think the Bibles against your position.
But oh okay, well let's talk about
420
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.920
that. So in Levitica, do
you think no, no, no,
421
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.920
no, no, Let's go to
that, because that's the key point.
422
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.559
Do you think do you think that
God's do you think God's glory is created?
423
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:58.519
Go to glory? Depends on what
you mean by glory and the way
424
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.000
that glory is the same way that
Jesus talks about sharing the Father's glory before
425
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.960
the foundation of the world. Right, So I would okay, so I
426
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:10.000
would say that God's glory is his
end, which is identical to himself,
427
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:13.960
but in the way that he so
it's his essence, right, because all
428
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.079
the attributes are the divine essence.
Right? I mean, what would you
429
00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:19.719
even define glory as? I mean, you don't think this is used in
430
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:22.920
scripture. I would just say glory
is just like a manifestation of God's being.
431
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:28.360
Oh, exactly, and so God's
being his his essence right? Right?
432
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.159
Okay, So did God's glory i
ever appear in time and space?
433
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:37.039
Right? So God can distribute his
glory to creatures? At the second?
434
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.639
Did God's glory itself ever appear in
time and space? Right? So?
435
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.920
I just said it depends on what
you mean in the distribute God's the way
436
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:50.239
it's described in Leviticus nine. Right. Can you relax? I did God's
437
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.760
glory appear in time and space?
Relax? I can think? I am,
438
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:59.360
I'm relaxed. I want the answer. Okay, so the station of
439
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:05.159
his being can be moldly conferred to
creatures, and the glory is not a
440
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.000
creature. So you just made a
stupid mistake. Hold on, so you
441
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:12.119
worship creatures? Hold on, let
me finish. You just said it.
442
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.199
You just said, it's transferred to
a creature. So I said, it
443
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.679
can be communicated to creatures in a
Sicknay, So the glory of God in
444
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.320
Leviticus nine is a creature that they
worship. Not true, That's not what
445
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:28.719
I said, because you did just
say that. Agrees. Okay, you're
446
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.039
smart. Here we go, here
we go calling out my name. Let
447
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.360
me speak, right, yeah,
I'm calling out your name being respectful.
448
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.360
You need to let me speak.
Let's have a respect for this question.
449
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:42.559
But you already contradicted yourself, contradict
myself. Okay, sure, yeah,
450
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.599
you just said that it can be. You said the glory is God's essence,
451
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:47.519
and you're saying now it can be. It can be conveyed to a
452
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:52.599
creature. So the worship of a
creature as God's essence and God's glory being
453
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:58.920
identical with his existence. No,
okay, so God existed prior to his
454
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:04.599
existence. No, God always had
a distinction between his essence and his energies.
455
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:09.599
He always transmitted and communicated his glory
amongst the persons from all eternity.
456
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:15.159
And it's not his ence. His
existence is not identified as as beak.
457
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:17.519
He didn't exist. How did that
happen? How did what happened? He's
458
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:22.840
always he's always shared that glory,
as Jesus himself says. Okay, when
459
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.119
you say he shared that, your
presupposing the thing in question, his existence.
460
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:30.079
Does Jesus say that in John Seventhohn
was Jesus an eternal person? No?
461
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:32.519
No, no, no, stop
refer scripture? Ah, exactly right.
462
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.719
Stop referring to scripture because your position
actually is totally divorced from divine revelation.
463
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:43.039
Did God's glory? Did God's glory
appear in Leviticus nine? Okay,
464
00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:45.559
stop referring to scripture? Notice how
the Thomas operates. Everybody, the whole
465
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:51.920
audience can see. Stop referring to
scripture. You are stop referring to scriptures?
466
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:53.480
Can you actually? Here we go? So now he has to go
467
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:59.039
to personal attacks. I stick to
the scriptures, he says. Stop referring
468
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:01.400
to scriptures. Sounds like a flipping
You sound like crimes he or bro.
469
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:06.639
Just relax, so invit. Now
let's go to Leviticus nine. Explain to
470
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.280
me how how the God, the
glory of God is worshiped than Olyticus?
471
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:15.000
If God existence, if his existence
is not identified as as being, but
472
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:17.159
he communicates something to his existence.
How are you going to see, not
473
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:22.480
to his existence, dummy to another
person, not to his existence to another
474
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:25.400
person. So you just just listen. The whole thing is assuming to me,
475
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:30.599
your metaphysics is wrong. Your metaphysics
is wrong. Why are we show
476
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:34.840
over each other? Because all of
your arguments are coming from your metaphysical assumptions,
477
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.920
and I'm saying that they're wrong.
Okay, you speak over people when
478
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:39.719
you know to have a good point. You don't have a good points because
479
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:45.400
you're you're avoiding. You're avoiding the
points, all right, So let me
480
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:47.840
speak that talk about Leviticus nine.
That's my argument. If you're confident,
481
00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:51.639
let me speak. Would you let
me speak? If you're going to address
482
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.400
Leviticus nine? Thank you? No? No, So you want a dress
483
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:58.920
scripture? So once again the others
he wanted to dress scripture Leviticus nine,
484
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:01.039
Or you're gone? Are you gonna? You're running away from something, you're
485
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:06.079
deflecting from my argument. You're running
from the Bible. You're running from divine
486
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:10.679
revelations. I'm running. You're saying, don't quote scripture at me. Scriptures
487
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:15.719
don't prove that God's existence is created. No, I don't believe that.
488
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:17.400
So now you're that's a strong man. You know, I'm not arguing God's
489
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:22.039
existence is cort So something that is
not God is uncreated entirely speaking, So
490
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.760
something that's not it's called the glory
of God that appeared that they all worshiped.
491
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:34.119
Have you read leveticas? Do you
know what? Okay, divine nature
492
00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:38.360
is uncreated and something that's not identified
the divine natures uncreated. Right, that's
493
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:43.320
called the essence energy stinction. Right, that's our position. I'm glad you
494
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:45.039
think it's funny. And that' why
you don't want to go to scripture.
495
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.639
So what happened in Leviticus nine?
What's what's? What are they worshiping in
496
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:53.039
Lemticus nine? You can't conceptually unless
we're saying you can't go to these scriptures.
497
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:57.559
Go, don't go to these scriptures. Bro, don't quote the Bible.
498
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:04.679
Let me tell me what's happening in
Leviticus nine? This guy, he
499
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:13.320
mean no God, no answer.
How does it crease your point? The
500
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.159
glory of God is appearing in time
and space. It's a common argument in
501
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:21.239
all Orthodox theology. So they're worshiping
it. It's not a creature you can't
502
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:25.719
worship creatures. It's a simple argument. So when go the people and he
503
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.559
appeared to creatures to the defects he's
made, yes or no? Did he?
504
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:35.519
What can he appear to creatures through
the effects that he is? Me
505
00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:39.639
it's not a created effect. It's
called the glory of God. And you
506
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:44.320
please answer this question. It is
not a creator that you can't worship creatures.
507
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:46.039
Can you worship creatures? All right? So here we go, So
508
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:50.960
all he does the same money,
he won't answer the questions. Answer no,
509
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.679
I'm answering your question by saying that
the text refute you. The Glory
510
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:58.599
of God appears in time and space
and they worship it. And you're saying,
511
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:15.079
but that that that I that is
a qua? Is it a creature?
512
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:19.360
Can you actually be serious to me? Is it a creature? No?
513
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:22.519
I think you're I think I think
it's funny or me? All right,
514
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:25.599
just relax, I'm not I'm having
fun I don't know anything. I
515
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:30.079
need to relax. Keep your composure
all right, keep your composion all right.
516
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:37.440
When good, when God chooses to
communicate to himself in creature to creatures,
517
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.400
can he do so through the effects
that he's made just a simple question.
518
00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:44.920
He can, but this is clearly
not a creative effect. It's called
519
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.199
the glory of God. Have you
ever had an argument with a Muslim on
520
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:52.119
Ye? Right, so you can. But that's not what's happening in this
521
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:53.840
passage that has no relevancy of this
pastor. Okay, okay, okay,
522
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:59.519
Now tell me why in that passage
you take it to be that God,
523
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:04.440
that God's infinite essence. Where is
one of his infinite essential attributes? And
524
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:07.960
you want to say that because it's
called the manifestation of his glory in time
525
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:13.679
and space? Okay, the manifestation, Yeah, Christ, glory is not
526
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:15.880
a creature. You can't worship creatures. Why do I have to take you
527
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:20.679
because you're not arguing against that.
You're just restating a bunch of stuff about
528
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:22.719
the passage. What's the argument against
is you're saying it's not a creature.
529
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:28.119
I believe that God's infinite attributes are
really identical with essence. I know that
530
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.119
we all know the Thomas possession in
any way, all right, so in
531
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:37.000
any way that the Bible refers to
God communicating, So you're metaphysics is wrong
532
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:38.599
because it goes against the scripture.
That's why you don't want to go to
533
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:42.400
the Bible. That's what you said, don't put the Bible that scripture.
534
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:45.519
It's one thing for it to go
against scripture, and one thing for it
535
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:47.719
to go against your meaning or your
interpretation of scripture. Okay, well tell
536
00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:51.760
me how it is you can worship
a creature. You sound Protestant. You
537
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:54.559
need a right, So going to
divine revelation is Protestant? Yes, exactly?
538
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:58.800
Did you realize? So you want
to tell you what's really going on
539
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.599
is that you're You're metaphysics is wrong
because it's it's the wrong starting point.
540
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:07.000
Look, I'm trying to have a
respectful conversation with you. You can keep
541
00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:12.679
saying that, but you're just deflecting
because your argument is that I'm a Protestant
542
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:15.400
now by going to the scriptures when
the scriptures clearly say over you do not
543
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:22.519
understand it's the same it's the same
part problem in the incarnation about Okay,
544
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:27.079
yeah, so I'm talking about something
that's so you're acting like this is not
545
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:32.320
an actual debate. You don't think
this is an actual debate philosophically, are
546
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:36.880
you conceiving that you cannot defend the
philosophically that you have to refer. So
547
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:42.280
this is the point your my argument
is that your philosophical position is wrong.
548
00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:46.960
How do you how do you deal
with that? Phil your your philosophy is
549
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:52.280
wrong? Is my argument? Can
I can defend it because I have the
550
00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:57.119
right starting point, which is divine
revelation? Yes, well that it just
551
00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:00.039
assumes that your philosophy is correct.
Let's do that. You want let's go
552
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.880
to philosophy. You want to do
that, Yes, let's go to philosophy.
553
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:07.199
I'm saying, let's go to that. Can you do it? I'm
554
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.280
saying, yes, let's go to
that. All right, cool, Now,
555
00:51:09.559 --> 00:51:15.639
when you have meta physical attributes?
Okay, how do you know this?
556
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:17.719
How do you know that? Let's
go, let's go to philosophy.
557
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:22.639
How do you know that that's the
case? You just to let's go to
558
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:25.280
philosophy. I want to know how
you know these propositions that you're saying are
559
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:35.039
the case you just told me,
I just told you. Unless you're reason
560
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.840
Oh well, that's my point.
I think your position, if it was
561
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:42.960
consistent, would lead to skepticism.
Yeah, because because you put your metaphysical
562
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.800
cart before your episomic course, you
wanted to go to philosophy. So if
563
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:47.760
you listen, if you don't shut
up, I'm going to boot you.
564
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:51.840
Just shut up, Just shut up. No, you're on my stream.
565
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:55.000
You don't tell me what they No, you don't talk to me like that.
566
00:51:55.039 --> 00:52:00.920
You're on my stream. Have some
respect, all right? I said,
567
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.000
I'm gonna boot you if you don't
shut up. You're not. I'm
568
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.639
not. I'm I'm I'm on my
strength to me because you can't respond to
569
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:09.920
my No, I want to go
to philosophy. Do you hear me?
570
00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:13.400
Are you gonna kick me? Because
of insecure? I want to go to
571
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:16.039
philosophy? All right? So stick
on the topic at hand, and the
572
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:21.519
topic the topic is about your metaphysics. I don't believe your metaphysics. You
573
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.960
explain to me how good is being? Why should I accept your idea of
574
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:30.400
being? In metaphysics? About God? I'm not saying, just explain it
575
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.840
to me. I want to know. I have a different starting point for
576
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:37.039
what's possible and what God can do. It's called divine revelation. You don't
577
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:40.360
want to go there's final lests go
to philosophy. So why should are you
578
00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:44.559
a self? Do you believe in
self evident truths. No, do you
579
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:47.280
believe in self evident truths? You
said, you said God has being,
580
00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:52.599
but God's being I have a different
paradigm for you. You said God has
581
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:55.559
being, but God's being is not
his existence? Correct? For us,
582
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:59.920
God's being is an energy. So
I have a different position from you.
583
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.840
So let's go to Let's go to
philosophy. You have a different position.
584
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.880
Explain the position. I'm not No, it's not I'm not here to explain
585
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:08.280
the position to you. You came
to debate, let's have a debate.
586
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:13.800
You said you want to go to
philosophy. Don't you want an explanation for
587
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.360
the position? Yeah? The Vine
revelation says that God's God's God can appear
588
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:22.320
in time and space. God can, So do you understand that you you
589
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.760
destroy the incarnation with your stupid position. You need to extract, You need
590
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:30.840
to you need to expassionate your positions
that I can understand in order for me
591
00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:36.159
to know divine revelation is my starting
point, and it tells me that God
592
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:40.320
can appear in time and space.
You're adding metaphysical like understandings to interpretation of
593
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:47.599
description and you're not doing that.
Tonism is a pre subposition metaphysics. Yeah,
594
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:51.280
we all do that. So what
So you're just stating what everyone knows.
595
00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:54.480
So what? Okay, we have
Christians that are genuinely trying to listen
596
00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:58.960
to our conversation. So can we
still start the tone policing the ad Enough
597
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:00.519
of your tone policing. It's not
working for anybody, but you're but you're
598
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.760
a small band of idiots. So
do you want to talk about epistemology or
599
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.840
not? Small? Bro? Please? Just do you want everybody saying that
600
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:12.519
you're crash dude? The whole the
whole chats laughing going to are you going
601
00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:15.679
to explain how good with the old
chats laughing? Everyone's laughing at you?
602
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:22.719
No or not? Not? Bro, take a breath. You embarrass yourself
603
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:29.480
by saying courting descriptures. Court descriptures
up, let's go. You're just a
604
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:32.119
fourty year old fat races. I
look at that. I'm a fat racist.
605
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.239
Look at the meltdown. The Thomas
can't do anything, so I do
606
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.440
a few jokes about his about his
roster voice, and he calls me a
607
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:44.840
fat racist. I'm not even fat. What are you talking about? Meltdown?
608
00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:49.119
That you should check? Look,
Oh I'm fat and good one.
609
00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:52.440
Yeah, did the fourth graders give
you that your position by reason? Yes
610
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.719
or no? Uh? And that's
why it goes to a pistemology, goofus,
611
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:01.559
That's why it goes to epistemology.
The dude literally can't pronounce his words,
612
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:07.000
and he says stop starting still storing
a coup A couple knocks me words.
613
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:09.519
But you still read and your frought
weird. I bet you have.
614
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:22.000
It is embarrassing for you. Ah, there we go. That's what I
615
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.199
reject. That's the essence of the
point. That's what I've been trying to
616
00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:28.840
get you debate the whole time.
It is that's what I'm arguing. That's
617
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:35.760
the essence of my argument. Yeah, I reject that position because it's not
618
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:38.800
true. You understand it's it's a
contradiction. You see, it's a contradiction.
619
00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:45.559
Let's have that debate. Hold on, let me speak. You said
620
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:50.960
that never makes sense? Thomiss,
He calls it Thomists. Oh my gosh,
621
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:59.199
what's you have a perfect accent?
You are your mind? Your mind?
622
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.360
You got the pigeon? Do you
got the pigeon? Braw child?
623
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.960
Because you want yeah, you get
what you deserve. You won't deal with
624
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:10.559
the topic. Look at profile pictures. This is what he goes to?
625
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.840
Your mind? Oh your mind?
What your what? They got down down
626
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:22.400
to pigeon? You speak the pug
and you want to have the debate now
627
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:36.119
that you melt it down, you
fat bro. You know there's over here
628
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:43.119
crying. It's Jerry Curls dripping because
he's crying. Do you want to talk
629
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:46.480
Let's talk about why? Let's talk
about a pistemology. Ready you ready to
630
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:51.559
talk about a pistemology? Are you
ready to talk about a pistemology? You're
631
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:54.039
the one that called me fat.
I just made fun of your voice.
632
00:56:55.199 --> 00:57:00.440
Do you want to talk about a
pistemology? Bro? Grow up? Do
633
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:04.320
you so you don't want to talk
about a pistemology? Question? How is
634
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.280
that is? No? You already
brought up metaphysics and epistemology. Let's talk
635
00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:12.760
about that. We already so you're
not going to do it. So you're
636
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:15.000
not going to go Let's move on
to the question you want it? He
637
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:19.280
won't do it? Deal with the
actual argument. Do we have any actual
638
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:27.119
Roman Catholics? Here we go?
You fat bruel, you fat, fat
639
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:30.079
racist. That's all that they have
to go through. Yeah, really fat,
640
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:45.159
super fat? You have fat?
Risk is brawan go their breath alivee
641
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:53.599
Eric, I'm mute, Eric,
you're here? You want to the debate?
642
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:58.559
I'm mute. Yes, yes,
hello, Hello, I'm sorry.
643
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:08.039
I'm sorry. I didn't know this
you. Yeah, let's go. So,
644
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:15.119
So I don't understand. I mean, I mean, how how how
645
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:23.320
do you do you have an argument? Come on? Yeah? Oh yeah,
646
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:29.199
yeah, our lord's word to see
what does that mean? What does
647
00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:31.719
that mean? That's your argument?
So we're here talking for an hour about
648
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:37.960
tomism and divine energies and the competitions
and you don't want to argue Matthew sixteen,
649
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:44.039
Yeah, because it comes down to
that. But I don't come down
650
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.400
to that. That's the lord to
your arguments. Bro. Yeah, you
651
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:52.280
can make fun of of of How
did you did? You barely get on?
652
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:57.159
Bro? What's up? Fool?
I think you got your top button
653
00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:00.960
a little too tight. Bro,
there's not enough going through your brain.
654
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:07.039
Brothers barely getting there? Oh my
god, here we go. Why do
655
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:09.280
they have to repeat It's like they
have to repeat my name. I don't
656
00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:14.920
get it. Do you want to
have a discussion or not? You want
657
00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:19.360
to? Okay? So you wanted
tobate Matthew sixteen? What happens? You
658
00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.079
want to be that? What are
you? What are you Hispanic? Or
659
00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:31.800
I can't tell? Is that what
it is? Are you Muslim? Okay?
660
00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:39.880
So you wanted to make Matthews and
you hear me, Hey, bro,
661
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:45.800
you gotta put some more, put
some more salts inside. Hello,
662
00:59:52.599 --> 01:00:02.719
h try to come out, come
back out and come back in. Where
663
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:13.519
are the Roman Catholics at stopped quoting
these scripts? I mean, mind,
664
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:16.920
by the way, please only quote
them ifty in the pigeon. Stop quoting
665
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:23.519
the scripts. I've been what's up? What's up? All right? So
666
01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:28.000
what we're speaking about? Because I
just joined recently? So what you want
667
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:37.320
a debate about? Considering Thomism Thomas? Well, I mean today's whole topic
668
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:40.960
was about anything relating to like cappit
Osians and trendy to your essen center distinction.
669
01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:49.920
But we can talk about the uh
do you worship creatures? I do
670
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:52.800
not worship creatures? Okay? And
do you mean like as and I worshiped
671
01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:58.639
the like natural world? No?
No? No? Like? Uh no?
672
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:02.840
Like For example, if God's glory
appears in time and space and the
673
01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:07.519
Israelites worship that and call it God. How is that possible on a Thomas
674
01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:19.679
position. I'm not at Thomas myself, but from what I think Thomas believe
675
01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:23.400
in, I think that would consider
that he controls the entire universe, he
676
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:30.280
reigns over the entire universe, and
that his presence affects the natural world.
677
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:32.880
Okay, So what does Levitic's nine
mean when it says that the glory of
678
01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:37.880
God appeared in time and space,
the divine energy and the divine fire appeared
679
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:52.639
in the Israelites worship and call him
God Hello? Could you repe that?
680
01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:58.199
My min Aaron lifted up his hands
towards the people and blessed him. And
681
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.960
he came down from the sin offering
and the burnt off bringing the peace offering.
682
01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:04.239
Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle
and came and blessed the people.
683
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:07.320
Then the glory of God appeared to
all the people, and fire came out
684
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:10.920
from before him. When all the
people saw it, they shouted and fell
685
01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:15.679
on their faces. How is the
glory of God, which is not created,
686
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:21.280
appearing in time and space to all
of Israel and being worshiped when you
687
01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:30.119
don't worship creatures. So the glory
of God appearing like that is considered a
688
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:35.440
creature. No, how could it
be. You just said you don't believe
689
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.400
in worshiping creatures and God's glories,
not creating that is not a creature at
690
01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:45.719
though. Exactly, So it's not
God's essence, right, No, it
691
01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:52.800
is not. Okay, So what
is it? All? Right? T
692
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:57.119
Y? You got me there?
I actually don't know exactly. That's why
693
01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:20.880
there's an essence iner distinction exactly.
Eric, gonna try again. I'm mute.
694
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:28.119
Were cooking DC tall mess far breakfiles. We're cooking and stripping the tormos
695
01:03:28.159 --> 01:03:34.760
down for de break fire. You
are fight by the way, Eric,
696
01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:37.800
I'm mute. Man, we eating
torm ass fall breakfast, said dare I,
697
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:45.199
Like yeah, God, y'all remember
back in the day, we used
698
01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:47.639
to have congo quinas that would call
in and he whispered out like that.
699
01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:55.360
I wonder if that was congo quinas, remember him? Eric, what's up?
700
01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:04.320
You're here? I'm mute, h
what's some more saults inside of the
701
01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:14.280
morn bro? It ain't working?
Eric meant they broed. It needs at
702
01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:17.000
least like three or four course more
more assaults inside of the motem and then
703
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:26.519
maybe the word bro Eric, bro
what's up? I mean, there's little
704
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:48.559
Torreso. What's up? Eric?
What's up? Man? It's like Thomas
705
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:57.599
are, like, don't they They
act like they're women's saints that scream and
706
01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:05.360
cry and cut themselves, like freaking
Margaret Mary alec Coque. There's like five
707
01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:10.760
or six trads defending that as like
that's really based in trying to imagine defending
708
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:15.800
self harm and self mutilation as based
in trad. This is idiotic. These
709
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:18.079
people are I think these people are, Like I'm starting more and more to
710
01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:23.920
think that these are mentally unstable people
and that you just can't interact with these
711
01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:29.760
people because they won't do anything related
to the actual topic. They'll deflect into
712
01:05:29.800 --> 01:05:40.639
a million different things and then play
victim and whine and cry. Go ahead,
713
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:48.400
hey, Jay, So I was
just gonna ask, like lists the
714
01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:54.679
Wagner thing, and we interacted a
little bit on Twitter, and I think
715
01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:59.320
you answer my question. But what
I see the relations of all positions being
716
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:04.519
is like the dietic thing that you're
objecting to is just when you're talking about
717
01:06:04.599 --> 01:06:10.639
two persons, and I don't necessarily
see an issue with that unless you're reducing
718
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:14.920
it strictly to it being a diet, which isn't that kind of your objection
719
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:18.760
that you're seeing it's a diet.
Well, relations of opposition would go along
720
01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:24.000
with in the in the Augustinian sense, goes along with dialectics. And so
721
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:28.760
if you begin your Trinitarian theology with
the essence, as Augustine tends to do.
722
01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:33.280
No, I'm not saying he never
mentions the role of the Father as
723
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.719
the cause. He does talk about
that in the Trinity, but the locus
724
01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:42.599
of the focus is on the divine
essence, and he starts with a Plutonian
725
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:49.480
definition of what simplicity is. That
then causes these challenges and these odd approaches
726
01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:54.559
to trying to make distinctions within that
absolutely simple essence. And one of those
727
01:06:54.599 --> 01:06:58.719
would be to say that and he
does a lot of these different speculations,
728
01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.559
and on the Trinity, one of
them is he says we could maybe distinguish
729
01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:05.960
him by saying that one is not
the other two. Father's not the son,
730
01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:09.159
not the spirit. Spirit is not
the Father, not the son.
731
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:13.239
Right. But the problem with that
is that that's it doesn't tell us anything
732
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.880
because all three of them share this
kind of vague property of being not the
733
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:19.440
other two. So it doesn't do
anything to tell us who the persons are.
734
01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:25.760
The roots problem of this whole thing
is when a Quinas says persona at
735
01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:30.360
rolatio person is relation. So the
Roman Catholics, because of their advince simplicity
736
01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:35.159
position, literally think that the persons
are the relations. But a relation is
737
01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:39.960
a predicate, not a subject.
Remember subject predicate, right, So a
738
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:44.360
relation is something that a subject has. For example, I am the son
739
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:47.159
of my father, Right, that's
a relation that I possess. So I
740
01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:53.320
possess a lot of relations, but
none of those relations are who I am.
741
01:07:53.800 --> 01:08:00.960
They're what I have there, their
attributes or their predicates. Jay is
742
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:05.239
five a bunch of these attributes,
So it will never really so it doesn't
743
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:13.000
actually tell us between the persons though, like the father, because I see
744
01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:16.039
I hear a lot of the same
kind of language being used. So do
745
01:08:16.119 --> 01:08:21.840
you reject that identifying the father as
the father in relation to the son like
746
01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:25.920
that. No, it's true,
it's it's true. It's just that it's
747
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:30.840
just that the relation is not reducible
to the person. The father is the
748
01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:34.880
father and his hypostatic park marker or
property is to be the cause. So
749
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:39.159
you can't say like it is equal
to the relation. And that's kind of
750
01:08:39.560 --> 01:08:46.720
that's the objection. And there again
remember remember Aquinas's famous quote is persona at
751
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:53.600
rolatio person is relation. And if
you read Losky, he has a whole
752
01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:57.199
critique of this. He says,
it makes absolutely no sense to call a
753
01:08:57.239 --> 01:09:00.439
person a relation, because a person
is a subject a relation as a predicate.
754
01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:03.760
You have a real force of this
argument here. I think you've like,
755
01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:08.159
it makes so much sense. It's
just too bad that it can't get
756
01:09:08.199 --> 01:09:12.359
to this point. I don't they're
not interested in they don't care. They
757
01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:16.359
just want to score points and find
a gotcha and so okay, okay,
758
01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:19.119
yeah. And then lastly, so
like this is my last question, but
759
01:09:19.359 --> 01:09:26.119
when you talk about God, can
you just refer to the nature generally as
760
01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:30.119
God? And I know bo Brandson's
doctor bou Brandston talks about God being the
761
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:35.000
father. But I think even I
don't want to say no, there's nothing
762
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:40.800
wrong. There's not. I mean
doctor Branson himself talks in many places and
763
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:44.319
we've talked about it as well.
The word God is not a like it
764
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:47.600
picks out different things. Yeah,
God can pick out the divine nature,
765
01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:51.359
can pick out the divine persons and
pick out the divine energy, and it
766
01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:59.399
can pick out human and angel messengers. Okay, so sure, yeah,
767
01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:01.920
I mean God has the nature and
when we worship, when we worship God,
768
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:04.600
listen, when we worship God,
we worship the whole God. So
769
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:10.359
yes, But the difference is that
we don't start with God as essence because
770
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:14.720
God is not revealed as essence.
He's revealed as I am, He the
771
01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:18.000
person of the Father. That's where
we start our theology. But then if
772
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:23.319
I was seeing this worshiping God the
Father, then I would when we say
773
01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.439
we worship God, I would think
it's incorrect to say we worship the nature
774
01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:30.560
because that seems to be well,
I don't know, maybe I have to
775
01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:33.119
think more about that, but yeah, we worship the nature because it exists
776
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:38.079
in the mode of the person that
has the nature. So oh, only
777
01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:41.560
in that sense, Okay, gotcha, gotcha? Okay, ship appreciate it.
778
01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:46.279
Sure, yeah, great question.
Remember too, the relation in the
779
01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:54.680
Kappadocians is relation of origin, and
even if you talk about contrarities like Basil
780
01:10:54.720 --> 01:11:00.560
did, it's still not arguing the
Augustinian position of relations of opposition within an
781
01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:04.840
absolutely simple essence. And the congar
article makes this point. Even though congar
782
01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:09.560
thinks that Augustin and the Cappadocians are
basically saying the same thing, which I
783
01:11:09.640 --> 01:11:14.680
don't agree with, he at least
admits in the article that there's differences of
784
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:19.640
approaches to the Trinity, and that's
not even that controversial what we're talking about.
785
01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:24.039
I mean, the Vatican clarification on
the Philly Oquay, not that long
786
01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:27.680
ago in the nineties or whatever,
admits this point too. It admits that
787
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:32.159
there's still tension between the Augustinian and
the Cappadocian approaches to the Triad. They're
788
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:42.319
different. One of those difference differences
relates to the fact that the Cappadocians are
789
01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:46.319
very clearly monarchical and they stress that
and they stress that the Father is the
790
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:50.279
sole cause. That's why Wagner spends
so much time trying to prove that there's
791
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:57.479
another cause in the Triad. And
that's why we had that whole talk with
792
01:11:57.560 --> 01:12:01.000
doctor Branson on this, because he
wrote his dissertation on this topic. That's
793
01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:11.479
why. So for those who want
to go deeper into the specifics of the
794
01:12:11.560 --> 01:12:19.680
camp of doc issue, which is
what this goes back to, it goes
795
01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:32.600
back to it's right here. On
distress discord is muda. I appreciate that.
796
01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:51.720
On demn stress discord is modda.
Mm hmmm, dude, you're taking
797
01:12:51.800 --> 01:13:00.199
the agnostic calls. Uh primarily was
talking about tumism. So does not really
798
01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:04.079
anything about agnosis as a mirror.
Do you want to do it now or
799
01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:08.720
you want to call into another time? I mean, is it quick or
800
01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:11.520
is it a question? Or what
are you wanting to do? Yeah,
801
01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:17.960
it's about pre sup Basically, do
you have any presuppositions you cut out?
802
01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:25.319
What? Oh? Sorry? Do
you have any pre sup presuppositions that don't
803
01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:31.399
have justifications? Well, I think
everybody's worldview bottoms out at some point where
804
01:13:31.399 --> 01:13:39.439
there's no justifications. That's why I
believe in paradigm level of circularity. So
805
01:13:39.760 --> 01:13:44.159
you do have some level of circularity
at the base layer of your life.
806
01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:48.760
I'm saying everybody does, okay,
because the only other option is some form
807
01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:53.319
of foundationalism or self evidence, and
I don't see how you can be consistent
808
01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:58.760
with that. So is it a
little bit of special pleading that you prefer
809
01:13:58.840 --> 01:14:02.399
yours over someone else's due to the
circularity happening? Now? It's not special
810
01:14:02.439 --> 01:14:10.760
pleading if my argument is that everybody
has circularity, right, but you prefer
811
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:15.479
yours over someone else's. It's not
a personal preference, it's a it's demonstratable
812
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:24.239
via the inconsistencies by the reduction reductio
in the other positions. But is it
813
01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:30.439
part of your reductio, the fact
that the other worldviews have circularity? No,
814
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:39.039
it's that they contradict. Every other
position contradicts itself. Yeah, at
815
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:42.319
a fundamental level when we flesh out
what their argument is. That's why it's
816
01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:45.840
a comparison of worldviews. Transcend augmentation
is a comparison of rival world views.
817
01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:50.800
So the fact that I say that
everybody at root relies on some paradigm level
818
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:55.720
circularity, that's not the problem,
because I said everybody has that problem that
819
01:14:55.800 --> 01:14:58.880
position. So how would we argue
if that's the case. The only way
820
01:14:58.920 --> 01:15:01.960
to do it is to argue whether
the positions as a whole are coherent,
821
01:15:02.359 --> 01:15:10.319
whether they have grounding, or whether
they contradict on a fundamental level. Well,
822
01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:15.079
have you heard every worldview possible or
have you heard every worldview that is
823
01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:18.319
held on earth? No, it's
not necessary because every worldview of necessity has
824
01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:21.479
a few basic starting points that they
have to begin with, and those starting
825
01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:29.680
points then determine the rest of the
system. Okay, so like a materialist
826
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:33.680
or an empiricist, what is the
contradiction. Well, they're not able to
827
01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:39.239
give an account for the argumentation that
they use as rank materialists, so they
828
01:15:39.279 --> 01:15:43.760
have to utilize things that are impossible
on a materialist perspective, such as laws
829
01:15:43.760 --> 01:15:48.439
of logic, universals, mathematical entities
meaning concept So at some point don't you
830
01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:54.840
reach a point where you cannot give
an accountability or a justification. Yes,
831
01:15:54.920 --> 01:16:00.720
Hence why I said all worldviews at
a paradigm level are circular. Right,
832
01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:06.920
But you just stated that empiricist materialists
have this contradiction. But then you just
833
01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:11.039
admitted that you have your own.
Yeah, paradigm level circularity is not the
834
01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:15.640
same thing as a contradiction, two
different things. So then what's this what's
835
01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:25.359
the paradigm level contradictions for empiricists,
Well, empiricism can't justify empiricism's presupposition that
836
01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:28.520
all knowledge comes through sense data.
You can't find incense data the truth or
837
01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:31.319
the proposition that all knowledge comes their
sensitive So that's just saying that they have
838
01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:36.800
a presupposition. No, it's a
contradiction. The difference. It is a
839
01:16:36.840 --> 01:16:42.800
contradiction. All knowledge comes Listen,
all knowledge comes through sense data. That's
840
01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:47.039
a proposition, that's the starting point
for all empiricism. That proposition is not
841
01:16:47.159 --> 01:16:54.880
found in sense data. That's a
contradiction. That's not circularity. Let me
842
01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:58.399
get Let me give you an example
of circularity. Right, Like I can't
843
01:16:58.520 --> 01:17:02.399
use work, I can't define words
without using words. So in linguistic philosophy,
844
01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:06.479
that's kind of an obvious circularity.
But we wouldn't say we wouldn't say
845
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:15.279
that that's a contradiction, whereas the
empiricist argument is a contradiction. And explain
846
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:23.079
one more time, Sorry, Why
is that a contradiction that our information and
847
01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:30.039
data comes from our experience? No, the claim all knowledge comes through sense
848
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:33.840
data itself is not found in sense
data. That's the contradiction. If it's
849
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:41.560
human knowledge, it won't matter.
So listen the proposition. The truth of
850
01:17:41.600 --> 01:17:45.079
the proposition itself is not found in
sense data. So I could say all
851
01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:51.439
humans are mammals and I don't need
to study every human being to understand that.
852
01:17:51.760 --> 01:17:56.800
Yeah, but that's an analytic truth. That's an analytic truth, So
853
01:17:56.840 --> 01:18:00.199
that doesn't This is the analytics synthetic
to say that doesn't tell you anything.
854
01:18:00.239 --> 01:18:05.359
That's why it's not relevant. And
by the way, analytic truths are not
855
01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:13.279
empirical truths. I still don't understand
why human knowledge cannot be gained through empiricism.
856
01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:16.800
You're not justified in making the claim
on empirical grounds. The point,
857
01:18:16.880 --> 01:18:20.479
on a ground level, you're not
justified for your beliefs. Again, you're
858
01:18:20.520 --> 01:18:27.960
confusing circularity with a contradiction. That's
two different things. You're you were confusing
859
01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:31.239
and actually because you're saying my circularity
is empiricism. But then when I point
860
01:18:31.239 --> 01:18:35.159
out that at some point you have
that problem, so you think circularity and
861
01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:39.239
contradictions are the same thing. It's
okay, good job, I'm saying you
862
01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:44.840
are because you're saying empiricism ultimate.
First, before we proceed the argument,
863
01:18:45.039 --> 01:18:50.039
Okay, I think what you said
was that empiricism. Well, first of
864
01:18:50.079 --> 01:18:54.199
all, you got it wrong that
you said all knowledge. I think empiricism
865
01:18:54.199 --> 01:18:58.560
would be human knowledge. So hold
on, is there other knowledge than human?
866
01:18:58.560 --> 01:19:01.479
Hold on and your is there other
knowledge? The human knowledge? There's
867
01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:08.960
only human knowledge right now. There
is knowledge from like other animals and stuff
868
01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:11.680
like that, but knowledge from other
animals how do you know that as an
869
01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:18.039
empiricist? Oh well, as an
all right, this is you don't even
870
01:19:18.039 --> 01:19:29.039
get as dude, We're done.
I'm looking for the people who want to
871
01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:35.800
discuss Tomism, Roman, Catholicism,
Papacy, Islam, Protestantism. It's not
872
01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:43.399
it's always it's not TAG Day,
but whatever. Actually they're all related.
873
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.479
So maybe it should be tag day
because as we tried to do with congo
874
01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:51.439
Quinas there, we couldn't get him
to go into epistemology. What's up you
875
01:19:51.439 --> 01:19:57.319
hear me? Yeah, okay,
so I do have a Catholic question.
876
01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:04.279
So I think it was yesterday whenever
your last dream was you mentioned Stigmata and
877
01:20:05.479 --> 01:20:08.479
I was looking. I was looking. I was doing a little bit,
878
01:20:08.520 --> 01:20:13.600
a little bit of internet research,
and I found this guy before Francis of
879
01:20:13.640 --> 01:20:18.960
ASSISI named as Bert, who apparently
died in six ninety five. Have you
880
01:20:19.039 --> 01:20:26.840
heard of him? No? I
found it was like a Western right thing.
881
01:20:26.880 --> 01:20:30.279
Apparently calls him a saint. But
I don't care what Western right people
882
01:20:30.319 --> 01:20:35.159
say. They're they're usually wrong.
So well, it is before the schism.
883
01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:38.119
So I was just wondering if you
knew that. Well, I mean
884
01:20:38.159 --> 01:20:41.039
again, I don't I don't have
the Roman Catholic position that I have to
885
01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:45.720
accept all the stories about you know
this or that legend of this or that
886
01:20:45.119 --> 01:20:49.760
ambiguous saint or whatever. Oh okay, well, I just wanted to bring
887
01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:55.039
that up, that there was an
account of him. Is after he died,
888
01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:59.439
they found stigmata on his Well,
how do we know that that's the
889
01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:02.840
same thing as the living stigmata?
Yeah? And that's the other thing is
890
01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:10.479
that it's not clear what it meant. Maybe maybe grave robbers came and desiccated
891
01:21:10.520 --> 01:21:14.760
his body or something, and who
knows what that means. But again,
892
01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:17.720
I mean, there's just it's just
not it's it's foreign to the orthodox ethos
893
01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:26.239
that there's these you know, sort
of tortuous self harm approaches. I've not
894
01:21:26.319 --> 01:21:29.399
heard this. I've never heard of
it. So maybe somebody has some.
895
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:33.479
And I don't think fasting in this
kind of stuff is not the same thing
896
01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:41.439
as the idea of carving Jesus name
into my body and then using the blood
897
01:21:41.479 --> 01:21:49.520
to sign a blood packed and then
reopening the wounds, which she did.
898
01:21:49.560 --> 01:21:59.640
By the way, did you want
to say something for other dig No,
899
01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:03.079
it's came in case a topic came
up to Camment up. Yeah, please
900
01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:15.960
do, uh, please do if
you can. So, so let's go
901
01:22:16.039 --> 01:22:21.439
back to this because people are saying
you wouldn't debate the p Thomas, That's
902
01:22:21.439 --> 01:22:26.359
why you had to run to Morgaret
Muriel Cookeway. So you need to understand
903
01:22:26.359 --> 01:22:31.119
that this is not optional for you
as a Roman Catholic, not because Roman
904
01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:39.079
Catholicism dogmatizes everything in a in a
so called saint's life, but rather this
905
01:22:39.239 --> 01:22:45.279
is fundamental to the Sacred Heart devotion. So if you let's follow the logic
906
01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:48.119
of this. So let's say I'm
a Roman Catholic and I choose to not
907
01:22:48.239 --> 01:22:54.640
believe the divine revelations so called the
private revelations to Margaret Mary Ella Cocuay.
908
01:22:55.600 --> 01:23:00.960
Well, according to Deuteronomy thirteen Deuteronomy
eighteen, the book of Jared Amaya in
909
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:05.760
Galatians, won people who are false
in their visions and in their predictions and
910
01:23:05.800 --> 01:23:11.960
in their messages. If those visions
are false, then their false prophets.
911
01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:17.039
If Margaret, if I reject her
visions, that means she's logically a false
912
01:23:17.079 --> 01:23:24.680
prophet. If she's a false prophet, then the entire Sacred Heart devotion with
913
01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:30.359
which she's intimately bound up goes away. No Roman Catholic can consistently coherently toss
914
01:23:30.399 --> 01:23:35.359
out sacred heart stuff because it's bound
up with her. So all of this
915
01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:39.560
stuff hangs and falls together, but
they want to pretend that it doesn't hang
916
01:23:39.560 --> 01:23:43.079
your fault together, and again they
pick and choose. Now does it really
917
01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:45.520
make sense to see if I can
find that other guy's comment, because there's
918
01:23:45.520 --> 01:23:48.960
a guy who had a really great
comment. Not I mean, this was
919
01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:53.399
another follow up comment, It's not
the one I'm looking for. But notice
920
01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:58.920
that Margaret was upset by the fact
that the wounds that she cut into her
921
01:23:58.920 --> 01:24:02.439
breast were beginning to fail. She
then attempted to reopen the original wounds on
922
01:24:02.520 --> 01:24:08.560
more than one occasion using a knife. So this is self harm, which
923
01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:15.600
is wrong, it's demonic. But
since she failed to do this, she
924
01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:24.760
then burned herself. I mean,
who can't see that this is It's not
925
01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:32.319
holiness, it's mental problems and spiritual
problems. I'm trying to find this other
926
01:24:32.319 --> 01:24:41.039
guy's comment because somebody had a really
great comment about whether or not you could
927
01:24:41.079 --> 01:24:45.920
sort of dismiss these things. I
don't accept these things. And he found
928
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:50.880
a couple. Uh it cyclical references. Now, this is the famous ecstasy
929
01:24:50.880 --> 01:24:56.159
of Terresa, and everybody should know
it's supposed to be spiritual rg asm.
930
01:24:56.600 --> 01:25:00.800
That's what this means because and all
that romancathers saying, well, there's a
931
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:06.600
comparison between married people and the Church
in Christ. Yeah, not a sexual
932
01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:13.119
attraction for God. What's the analogy
is the union? The union of a
933
01:25:13.159 --> 01:25:17.239
married man and woman is analogous to
the union of the Church in Christ.
934
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:30.319
Doesn't mean that we have sexual desires
for God, you idiots. I'm trying
935
01:25:30.319 --> 01:25:33.880
to find that one. Guys,
I know where it is. Let me
936
01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:57.520
find this comment. This is really
good. Now, that's not it.
937
01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:15.600
Somebody found the freaking the people in
cyclicals that like establish all of this stuff
938
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:20.079
from her, And I can't find
that guy's comment because no, I haven't.
939
01:26:20.119 --> 01:26:26.359
I don't care about this is not
something I ever cared about. It's
940
01:26:26.359 --> 01:26:34.039
a Roman Catholic to go and read
the encyclicals on Mary Ala Coquay or whatever.
941
01:26:34.279 --> 01:26:41.039
I don't care about that. But
I can't find that guy's comment.
942
01:26:41.359 --> 01:26:46.079
So, but it was really good
because basically it shows that like, it's
943
01:26:46.119 --> 01:26:50.760
not a thing you get the you
don't get the right to like, Oh
944
01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:54.119
I don't. I don't accept that. That one I tossed out. I
945
01:26:54.159 --> 01:26:56.399
had another couple of Roman Catholics were
saying, oh, you don't have to
946
01:26:56.439 --> 01:26:59.319
accept the saints. Yeah, you
do. It's part of the magisterium.
947
01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:05.720
It's ordinary. I just hear him. Anyway. I can't find that guy's
948
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:10.560
comment, but you get the point. Like, the point is simply that
949
01:27:10.840 --> 01:27:15.239
the Papa seed did a whole thing
on this and said, yes, this
950
01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:24.840
is the ghostbusters in room. Rome
have approved Margaret Mary Alacoque. So imagine
951
01:27:24.840 --> 01:27:27.920
saying that, well, I'm a
Roman Catholic, but I just doubt like
952
01:27:28.119 --> 01:27:32.199
the most popular devotion next to Fatima
of the last you know, several hundred
953
01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:35.760
years. I mean, come on, who would take that seriously? But
954
01:27:35.800 --> 01:27:40.520
then again, I guess in Roman
Catholicism it's you make it into whatever you
955
01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:44.279
want it to be. So if
you wanted to be praying in mosques or
956
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:46.800
like Mother Teresa went and prayed in
the Buddhist temples, which she did,
957
01:27:48.359 --> 01:27:50.479
you can make it either one of
those. Make it whatever you want.
958
01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:55.479
You want to be a charismatic brother. The Roman Church, the papacy has
959
01:27:55.520 --> 01:28:00.479
accepted charismaticism. I mean that,
what does that tell you while it makes
960
01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:04.479
the point that we've been making that
these insane historyonic women were the charismatics of
961
01:28:04.520 --> 01:28:10.079
four hundred years ago. So it
makes perfect sense that Rome would accept and
962
01:28:10.159 --> 01:28:16.159
approve of this ridiculous movement of pentecostalism
and charismaticism from the papacy down by the
963
01:28:16.159 --> 01:28:23.760
way. All right, let's see
he's next. If that guy's listening,
964
01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:26.680
or if you're in here, the
guy who put up the encyclicals related to
965
01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:29.720
Sacred Heart, or if you guys
in the chat find it, feel free
966
01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:45.239
to link that and I'll pull it
up. Let's see, Sapphire got an
967
01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:50.560
mute? Hey, j Yeah,
this is a I have one question on
968
01:28:50.680 --> 01:28:57.479
topic of the Tonism debate you just
had. What could you I just think
969
01:28:57.520 --> 01:29:00.800
it'd be helpful if you were to
like cite all the all the book listed
970
01:29:00.319 --> 01:29:04.279
or made reference to for future reference. I don't know if that's like a
971
01:29:04.359 --> 01:29:08.920
huge ask, but no, in
relation to what energies or what what do
972
01:29:08.960 --> 01:29:13.000
you mean? Yeah, like the
relation of opposition or like where Augustus mentioned
973
01:29:13.000 --> 01:29:15.840
it because he tried to do this
gotcha at the end where he was like
974
01:29:15.880 --> 01:29:17.960
where did it? Gusta site us? Well? And I was actually correct
975
01:29:18.000 --> 01:29:21.039
because later on it's book five where
he starts to talk about this, and
976
01:29:21.119 --> 01:29:25.199
I said, it's around the beginning
of the second half where he starts to
977
01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:29.439
go into the trendy turning speculation.
So he booted me right then, So
978
01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:33.840
I know it's kind of but that
is correct. H con Guar talks about
979
01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:38.279
that. It's like book five and
afterwards where a Gustine goes into these things.
980
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:42.479
So keep in mind, like I
haven't read Date Trinitate, like I
981
01:29:42.560 --> 01:29:46.359
read it like fifteen years ago,
so I'm quit caring about all this stuff
982
01:29:46.359 --> 01:29:48.680
a long time ago. So but
I mean, I think it's pretty good
983
01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:51.359
to remember, like off the top
of my head, it's the second half
984
01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:56.920
of the of the treatise. But
but yeah, you could so I would
985
01:29:56.960 --> 01:30:01.119
say you could read the con Guar
essay where he he just laying out that
986
01:30:01.399 --> 01:30:05.159
it's not really that controversial, that
there's two different approaches between East and West
987
01:30:05.199 --> 01:30:14.880
on the Trinity, and that the
Augustinian Latin approach eventually tomistic approach originally eventually
988
01:30:14.920 --> 01:30:17.159
goes into a different direction in the
Middle Ages, when it's you know,
989
01:30:17.359 --> 01:30:24.239
heavily tonistic and focused on all of
the nuances of scholasticism, and the East
990
01:30:24.399 --> 01:30:28.840
didn't have that, which is why
it was pretty funny when I said you
991
01:30:28.920 --> 01:30:33.239
think that, I asked Wagners,
you think the that there's scolat that the
992
01:30:33.560 --> 01:30:39.319
Cappadocians are scholastics. He said,
yeah, they cite Aristotle. Okay,
993
01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:43.159
So apparently the only thing that's required
to be a scholastic is to cite Aristotle
994
01:30:43.279 --> 01:30:46.000
in his mind, so basically everyone
is a scholastic. So this is what
995
01:30:46.119 --> 01:30:49.439
Roman Catholics do, where they'll just
like bait and switch and like switch out
996
01:30:49.520 --> 01:30:54.039
the meanings of the words. And
so if you agree to something, they'll
997
01:30:54.039 --> 01:30:56.199
say, ah, yes, well
that word means this, So you agree
998
01:30:56.199 --> 01:31:00.479
with my position, you're reputed.
It's they love to play these words concept
999
01:31:00.640 --> 01:31:04.319
of games. That's why his whole
position was based on the assumption that relations
1000
01:31:04.439 --> 01:31:09.680
is identical to relations of opposition,
and so it's a word concept fallacy.
1001
01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:15.319
Think about what they do with logos, right logoss The logoss right Emj's logoss
1002
01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:19.960
is the same as every other philosopher
that uses the word logos, even though
1003
01:31:20.439 --> 01:31:26.239
no, I mean John One.
Logos comes from the Book of Proverbs,
1004
01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:29.239
the Hebrew wisdom tradition. It's the
second person, that godhead. It's not
1005
01:31:29.319 --> 01:31:34.920
the same thing as the logos of
Marcus Aurelius and anyway the Stoics, So
1006
01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:39.560
I mean Plato uses logos, Does
he mean Jesus? Of course not so
1007
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:44.319
obviously they're not identical. But they
play these bait and switch word games and
1008
01:31:44.479 --> 01:31:46.760
word concept fallacy. So that's why
he had to boot me, because he
1009
01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:53.319
sensed that the he that I might
have been right about him confusing relations with
1010
01:31:54.239 --> 01:31:58.279
this Augustinian notion of relations of opposition, which again is part of like the
1011
01:31:58.840 --> 01:32:02.680
absolute divine simplicity Philly oak Way to
be dispute, and it's just simply not
1012
01:32:02.920 --> 01:32:09.439
used as the focus of even if
they use the word contrarities or something like
1013
01:32:09.520 --> 01:32:13.840
that, like the focus of the
Cavin Docians is hyposthetic properties and relations of
1014
01:32:13.920 --> 01:32:17.680
origin. And like a lot of
these people would do well if they wanted
1015
01:32:17.760 --> 01:32:21.560
to really interact with a position to
read some of the books that deal with
1016
01:32:21.720 --> 01:32:26.359
the critiques. For example, I
would say you need to read Mystical Theology
1017
01:32:26.359 --> 01:32:29.600
the Eastern Church by Loski, I
mean every Roman Catholic should at least read
1018
01:32:29.680 --> 01:32:33.800
that to have a basic idea of
what our critiques are. Because Loski studied
1019
01:32:33.880 --> 01:32:41.079
under Jillson, right, the famous
Thomas, so he knows and understands Thumism
1020
01:32:41.239 --> 01:32:45.239
very well when he writes his critiques
of Tomism. And most of the arguments
1021
01:32:45.279 --> 01:32:48.760
that you hear me repeating and putting
out there, almost all of them are
1022
01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:51.880
in Lawsky, I mean, and
Lasky is not the only person to do
1023
01:32:53.000 --> 01:32:56.399
it. But you know, there
are also arguments that you find in you
1024
01:32:56.479 --> 01:33:00.159
know, Steinyloy. But really the
arguments go back to the cap Pi,
1025
01:33:00.159 --> 01:33:03.960
Dooceans, Maximus, and the Palamite
disputes and synods. So I would say,
1026
01:33:04.920 --> 01:33:09.319
read the Triads by Saint Gregor Palamus, Read a Debate with a barley
1027
01:33:09.479 --> 01:33:15.600
Might by Palomas. The uh Palomite
synods have all been translated now it's in
1028
01:33:15.680 --> 01:33:18.600
a book now by Norman Russell.
I would say, read those. You'll
1029
01:33:18.640 --> 01:33:21.039
see that all the arguments that are
made because, by the way, all
1030
01:33:21.079 --> 01:33:26.640
of most of I should say,
many of Palamas's letters are also translated in
1031
01:33:26.720 --> 01:33:29.159
that book. So it's also going
to be a key to let me just
1032
01:33:29.199 --> 01:33:31.680
get the books. Yeah, oh, thanks, man, I appreciate that
1033
01:33:39.079 --> 01:33:53.239
is your graduato stream. Oh no
way, okay, now I'm I'm not
1034
01:33:53.319 --> 01:33:55.600
at my other house, so I
don't have all my other all my other
1035
01:33:55.720 --> 01:33:59.560
books, so I don't have any
lost Key books here, and I don't
1036
01:33:59.560 --> 01:34:08.680
have any church Fathers here. But
so's there's really there's several really good books
1037
01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:11.880
on this, and I would say
start with Losky is kind of an introduction.
1038
01:34:12.479 --> 01:34:15.279
I would read Mystical Theology of the
Eastern Church. I would read Vision
1039
01:34:15.319 --> 01:34:20.000
of God by Lasky is really good. Dogmatic Theology by Losky also good.
1040
01:34:20.239 --> 01:34:27.279
But to get specifically into the energy's
debate debate with the Barlamite, which you
1041
01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:31.279
can get I think for still like
twenty bucks at s n u Y Press.
1042
01:34:32.960 --> 01:34:38.880
The Triads is a really good book
by Palamas. That's a more fleshed
1043
01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:45.640
out, longer argument on this topic
than the book that I'm talking about.
1044
01:34:45.680 --> 01:34:50.560
That's a translation of of Palamas's letters
and all the Palomite Synods. Is Norman
1045
01:34:50.640 --> 01:34:59.199
Russell's book Gregory Palomas has the cast
controversy in the debate with islam Documents relating
1046
01:34:59.239 --> 01:35:01.960
to Gregory palam Us, it's this
orange book right here. It's really good
1047
01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:10.279
if you really want to get really
technical. It's not an easy read,
1048
01:35:10.359 --> 01:35:14.800
but it is very relevant and proves
that Palamas, tadd the essence inter distinction,
1049
01:35:14.920 --> 01:35:19.520
and then it's say real essence interdistinction, and that's teekon Pino's dissertation.
1050
01:35:19.800 --> 01:35:25.560
Essence and Energies Being and Naming God
in Palamas is a good book. I
1051
01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:30.359
would read doctor Bradshaw's Aristotle East and
West, which is also very technical,
1052
01:35:30.399 --> 01:35:34.199
but it will get into disputing Eastern
and Western views of the Trinity and the
1053
01:35:34.319 --> 01:35:40.439
energies. Doctor Bradshaw's book that's a
bunch of his other essays that's collected together
1054
01:35:40.680 --> 01:35:44.600
called Divine Energies and Divine Action is
Necessary. It's a really good book.
1055
01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:50.199
And in the Church Fathers, I
would say you should start with something like
1056
01:35:50.359 --> 01:35:57.000
Basil on the Holy Spirit and Basil
against Unomius. Both of those make arguments
1057
01:35:57.039 --> 01:36:00.880
on the basis of the energies Basil
Letter two thirty four. And one of
1058
01:36:00.880 --> 01:36:09.359
the key things that's overlooked with the
dispute between East and West is Maximus's book
1059
01:36:09.399 --> 01:36:13.119
two hundred chapters. And the reason
I always recommend they never read this,
1060
01:36:13.479 --> 01:36:15.479
They never look at this. But
the reason I recommend the tuner chapters is
1061
01:36:15.560 --> 01:36:21.680
that the first five pages is Maximus
saying that there's two senses in which we
1062
01:36:21.760 --> 01:36:27.399
can call God pure act. There's
one sense that's valid and another sense that's
1063
01:36:27.479 --> 01:36:30.319
not valid. Roman Catholics do not
make this distinction. So when they call
1064
01:36:30.399 --> 01:36:34.359
God pure act, they mean it
in a reductionist sense that God is identical
1065
01:36:34.439 --> 01:36:41.119
to his essence as you heard congo
quitas and here's chirpin or earlier. That
1066
01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:44.720
doesn't make sense, right and right. So he says that we cannot call
1067
01:36:44.840 --> 01:36:47.439
God pure act in his essence.
Literally, the first five pages of the
1068
01:36:47.479 --> 01:36:51.800
two inter chapters makes this anti Tomistic
argument. He says we can call God
1069
01:36:54.359 --> 01:36:58.680
first act or pure actuality in contrast
to creation. And he says that you
1070
01:36:58.840 --> 01:37:02.640
have to have this do sense of
naming if we're going to use terms like
1071
01:37:03.079 --> 01:37:11.439
first actuality or pure act because if
you reduce God's the persons or God's essence
1072
01:37:11.520 --> 01:37:15.520
to pure act Maximus says, you'll
end up in the heresy of Aristotle.
1073
01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:19.159
You would be it. You would
believe in an internal dual principle of an
1074
01:37:19.199 --> 01:37:26.159
eternal actualizer actualizing something other than himself, which is why it's often again pertinent
1075
01:37:26.279 --> 01:37:30.119
to bring out the eternal creation challenge, the modal collapse challenge to the people
1076
01:37:30.119 --> 01:37:33.960
who argue this I sad. Yeah, Train more often relies on that sort
1077
01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:38.800
of thing too. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much all their arguments are are
1078
01:37:39.479 --> 01:37:42.920
this way. I have two more
questions. You should go pretty quick.
1079
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:45.920
But I would say also, another
really essential thing to read, which none
1080
01:37:45.920 --> 01:37:49.039
of them have actually read, because
they would they would know if they had
1081
01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:53.319
read this, is if you read
on the Orthodox Faith by John Damascus,
1082
01:37:55.199 --> 01:37:58.159
particularly book three, So you have
to make it all the way to book
1083
01:37:58.159 --> 01:38:00.279
three, which I don't think they
do. They just quote. Mind they'll
1084
01:38:00.279 --> 01:38:04.159
actually read these texts. But if
you read book three and when he gets
1085
01:38:04.199 --> 01:38:10.479
to section fifteen is where he takes
all the essence energy distinction arguments and applies
1086
01:38:10.520 --> 01:38:13.720
them to Christology. But now of
these people know anything about Christology, so
1087
01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:17.880
they wouldn't even understand why it's way
more there's way more clarity about the energies
1088
01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:23.720
in Christology. And if you understand
the essence energy distinction is the very thing
1089
01:38:23.800 --> 01:38:28.439
that Maximus argues in his disputation with
Pearis, Right, that's you could get
1090
01:38:28.439 --> 01:38:31.720
that book Disputation with Pearis by Saint
Maximus. I recommend that the whole book
1091
01:38:31.840 --> 01:38:35.640
is arguing the distinction between essence and
energy, both in God and in Man.
1092
01:38:38.079 --> 01:38:40.359
And that's why there's two wills and
two energies in Christ. So it's
1093
01:38:40.399 --> 01:38:44.000
the very way he refutes Pearis.
So, yes, it has to be
1094
01:38:44.119 --> 01:38:46.560
a real, real there have to
be really different, and that's why John
1095
01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:49.960
Vascus says they're really different. And
then they want to haggle over the terms.
1096
01:38:50.000 --> 01:38:53.800
What was it mean to be really
different? Are you saying it's parts?
1097
01:38:54.600 --> 01:38:57.119
No, it's not parts, No
more than the Trinity is parts.
1098
01:38:58.680 --> 01:39:01.439
So let's look at fifteen and you'll
notice right here at book three, section
1099
01:39:01.560 --> 01:39:10.560
fifteen, what does John Damascus start
this whole passage with concerning the energies and
1100
01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:15.720
our Lord Jesus Christ. If he
equates and reduces the energies to the essence,
1101
01:39:15.319 --> 01:39:17.960
all of these arguments fall apart and
none of them make any sense.
1102
01:39:18.000 --> 01:39:21.600
It's as stupid the Roman Catholics.
Then they think you're stupid. They want
1103
01:39:21.640 --> 01:39:26.199
you to rely on their quote minds
and all this crap out of context,
1104
01:39:26.640 --> 01:39:30.159
as if you won't go and actually
read John Damascus saying right here, observe
1105
01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:38.319
that energy capacity for energy or power
potentia, the product of the energy that's
1106
01:39:38.359 --> 01:39:45.239
the effect, and the agent the
person are all different. Here's John Damascus,
1107
01:39:45.319 --> 01:39:50.479
saying to you that the father's action, or excuse me, the God's
1108
01:39:50.520 --> 01:39:56.680
action to create is distinct from the
divine persons. The effect of that creation
1109
01:39:57.199 --> 01:40:00.680
the world is distinct from the person
acting creating. And clearly there's a difference
1110
01:40:00.720 --> 01:40:04.880
between these actions. Because did God
rest on the seven day from creating or
1111
01:40:04.960 --> 01:40:09.680
not? Yes? He did.
And this is an argument Palamus uses against
1112
01:40:09.680 --> 01:40:12.520
the barl Mites. He says,
did God restaurant or is he still creating?
1113
01:40:13.560 --> 01:40:16.840
If he rested from creating, then
not all actions are identical? Is
1114
01:40:16.880 --> 01:40:20.279
that something? But why will why
won't they accept that? Because if they
1115
01:40:20.359 --> 01:40:25.800
accept that, the whole tomistic system
tumbles like a house of cards. That
1116
01:40:25.880 --> 01:40:29.640
it is and that's why what that's
why did you hear the discussion earlier with
1117
01:40:29.720 --> 01:40:33.079
congo Quinas and Leviticus nine? Was
that a guy in the space because I
1118
01:40:33.239 --> 01:40:36.920
helped on like ago? Yeah,
so he said, don't go to de
1119
01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:47.159
bai stock quote literally, stop vote
philosophy. Why would I? Why would
1120
01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:53.880
I go to philosophy when literally you
believe divine revelation tells us that God's glory
1121
01:40:54.039 --> 01:40:59.119
appeared in time and space in Leviticus
nine to all of Israel? What is
1122
01:40:59.199 --> 01:41:01.960
that. Yeah, doctor downs that
created effis. Oh, so you can
1123
01:41:02.000 --> 01:41:09.199
worship creatures the creator to fix is
not a creature? Ond. Yeah,
1124
01:41:09.239 --> 01:41:13.479
that's crazy. Now this is this
is how crazy they are. They are
1125
01:41:13.520 --> 01:41:17.920
in a cult that believes a system. And if you go to the challenging
1126
01:41:18.039 --> 01:41:23.560
the assumptions of the system, that's
why they melt down. I say,
1127
01:41:24.399 --> 01:41:28.800
do they believe in potential at all? Or not in God? I see,
1128
01:41:28.840 --> 01:41:30.600
Okay, that's a big problem.
If they admitted any of that in
1129
01:41:30.720 --> 01:41:35.800
God, then they would say that
that in their mind, that metaphysically necessitates
1130
01:41:35.960 --> 01:41:40.079
that God has composed, God is
changeable, God is passable, God has
1131
01:41:40.159 --> 01:41:44.079
parts. I see. I have
one more question about two more, but
1132
01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:45.520
I think it'll be pretty quick.
And but that, by the way,
1133
01:41:45.640 --> 01:41:50.199
is why I keep asking them if
they will discuss epistemology, because they will
1134
01:41:50.239 --> 01:41:54.600
say that that all of that's not
possible, and then I'm going to say,
1135
01:41:54.680 --> 01:41:57.399
well, how do you know what
isn't isn't possible? Well, because
1136
01:41:57.439 --> 01:42:00.840
we know because of being in metaphysics. The the black guy that was on
1137
01:42:00.920 --> 01:42:04.720
here even said metaphysics is prior to
apistemology. Oh okay, and I wanted
1138
01:42:04.760 --> 01:42:06.920
to ask him and talk to him, how do you know that, because
1139
01:42:06.960 --> 01:42:12.920
that's an assertion, that's that's where
your your system starts with. I was
1140
01:42:12.960 --> 01:42:16.199
gonna ask, do you do foll
follow up debates at all? Or what
1141
01:42:16.279 --> 01:42:20.279
do you mean like with uh,
that Wagner guy, I think that was
1142
01:42:20.319 --> 01:42:25.159
his name, He won't debate.
I've already I've been asking him for months
1143
01:42:25.199 --> 01:42:29.399
to debate dang, yeah, or
like I know, it's kind he only
1144
01:42:29.439 --> 01:42:31.680
wants to have a formal debate on
Philly okuay because that's the one thing that
1145
01:42:31.760 --> 01:42:35.560
he studied. Uh, and that's
he already debated UBI on that. So
1146
01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:40.720
I'm like, well, tumism isn't
built on Philly okuay. Tmism is built
1147
01:42:40.760 --> 01:42:45.279
on the idea that metaphysics is prior
to epistemology. I don't believe that.
1148
01:42:45.399 --> 01:42:49.000
I want to challenge that, and
they won't debate that. Yeah, yeah,
1149
01:42:49.079 --> 01:42:53.199
to me, that sounds crazy.
I think epistemology would come before metaphysics.
1150
01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:56.319
But well, even if you thought
that it did or didn't, like,
1151
01:42:56.760 --> 01:43:00.439
there still needs to be some addressing
of the argument that it doesn't.
1152
01:43:00.319 --> 01:43:08.399
Yeah, that's just a it's just
an assumption question first principles. M HM.
1153
01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:13.199
I would ask do you do Follo
up debates with like, I know
1154
01:43:13.239 --> 01:43:17.279
it's kind of out there, but
like Tea Jump or malpass Or, I
1155
01:43:17.359 --> 01:43:20.279
would not have another debate with t
Dump. I don't think there's any point.
1156
01:43:21.439 --> 01:43:25.119
Yeah, and my last question is, I've seen you talk about black
1157
01:43:25.159 --> 01:43:29.840
hebrews Raelites for a while. Have
you ever read into Rostafarianism And if so,
1158
01:43:30.079 --> 01:43:32.760
do you think that's like on the
same tier of like bananas or just
1159
01:43:32.840 --> 01:43:38.000
craziness. It's very similar. In
fact, I think Hebrew roots and black
1160
01:43:38.039 --> 01:43:45.920
Heber Israelite will have some ideological lineage
from Rastafarian tendencies. I can believe that
1161
01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:49.119
because it's not es centralized religion is
the weird thing about Rosty stuff, right,
1162
01:43:49.239 --> 01:43:53.159
And they don't really have dogmas.
It's it's not really a dog a
1163
01:43:53.239 --> 01:43:57.720
position with like feel like you're not
going to find the Rastafarian systematic theology like
1164
01:43:57.800 --> 01:44:01.359
that doesn't think there's no Russifar and
heresies or Rustafarian metaphysic. It's just kind
1165
01:44:01.399 --> 01:44:05.399
of like a vague abstraction. Yeah, but I do think that some of
1166
01:44:05.479 --> 01:44:11.199
the ideas of like you know,
we're the true Zion and all that,
1167
01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:16.880
I think that did influence I've just
seen people arguing this in some articles I've
1168
01:44:16.920 --> 01:44:21.800
read, but I don't know that
much about either Rastafarianism or any of these
1169
01:44:21.880 --> 01:44:26.079
movements other than the one livestream.
I did kind of reading some articles about
1170
01:44:26.079 --> 01:44:29.560
it. I'd recommend you read into
it because it's like they believe that like
1171
01:44:29.640 --> 01:44:32.960
Gone incarnated as the Emperor of Ethiopia. I'm aware of that, that Haley
1172
01:44:33.439 --> 01:44:39.000
Haley Selassie is the Holy Spirit.
I'mware of that. You all right,
1173
01:44:39.039 --> 01:44:41.600
thank you, thank you for letting
me on at a good time. Yeah,
1174
01:44:41.640 --> 01:44:45.159
some people say that that's not actually
true. I don't know whether it
1175
01:44:45.279 --> 01:45:03.720
is or isn't. Are got on
mute? Are you there? He's that
1176
01:45:03.920 --> 01:45:12.760
hard time connecting father deacon? Are
either Yeah. I was gonna say.
1177
01:45:15.199 --> 01:45:20.359
After I graduated high school, I
was in UH. I took some classes
1178
01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:26.840
a quick community college before I went
to Thomas Quinn's College, and a friend
1179
01:45:26.840 --> 01:45:31.840
of mine gave me a book on
roster Fororianism, and I was already in
1180
01:45:31.920 --> 01:45:39.439
the apologetics by then, and it
was the dumbest thing I've ever like.
1181
01:45:40.119 --> 01:45:46.680
Yeah, it's really low here differend
wi fi real quick over here on on
1182
01:45:46.840 --> 01:45:50.960
the live stream, so it'll come
right back don't worry. It's not it's
1183
01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.399
not going anywhere. It just takes
it a second to hop over to the
1184
01:45:55.520 --> 01:45:59.640
other. Uh. And usually if
I go to this other this other band,
1185
01:46:00.920 --> 01:46:03.840
it doesn't have as many problems.
So try that here, wa go
1186
01:46:03.880 --> 01:46:15.319
ahead? Hello, uh huh,
what's up? Ari? What's up?
1187
01:46:23.000 --> 01:46:29.960
Hello? Yeah, what's up?
Man? I can hear you. I
1188
01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:47.000
know it's sometimes it just doesn't work. Drew, Oh, hey, yeah,
1189
01:46:47.159 --> 01:46:50.159
Jay, what's up? Man?
Hey? Uh yeah, I was
1190
01:46:50.239 --> 01:46:56.680
just curious. Can you can you
explain exactly how Roman Catholics understand original sceny?
1191
01:46:58.720 --> 01:47:01.520
Okay? Well, I I would
say that the more modern you get,
1192
01:47:02.960 --> 01:47:09.039
the more the Roman Catholic position just
strictly on original sin moved closer to
1193
01:47:09.199 --> 01:47:14.359
the Orthodox position. So if you
read like the Vatican Clarification on Limbo,
1194
01:47:15.359 --> 01:47:18.119
it discusses this in the first I
don't know half of the of the essay
1195
01:47:18.920 --> 01:47:26.399
that the period from Augustine to Pope
San Gregory the Great, that period was
1196
01:47:26.479 --> 01:47:32.079
really the dominance of the strict Augustinian
view that all men are in Adam as
1197
01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:38.119
in an archetype, and so in
that way all men share not just in
1198
01:47:38.199 --> 01:47:41.680
the effects of Adam Sin, but
also in his guilt. I did a
1199
01:47:41.720 --> 01:47:45.760
whole podcast, a three hour podcast
on Augustine and the City of God where
1200
01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:49.880
he discusses this topic and he makes
it very clear he makes this Neil Platinum
1201
01:47:49.960 --> 01:47:54.000
type of argument that we're all in
Adam as in an archetype, and that's
1202
01:47:54.119 --> 01:47:58.560
why we share that guilt. And
that's because he had a misreading of Romans
1203
01:47:58.600 --> 01:48:02.279
five idea that all men sin because
all men were in Adam and therefore all
1204
01:48:02.319 --> 01:48:06.439
sin. It's rather the Greek is
different Meandorf has a good response to this,
1205
01:48:06.520 --> 01:48:11.119
where he points out that the effects
of Adam sin come upon all men
1206
01:48:11.239 --> 01:48:15.159
because all men eventually sin, not
that all men actually literally sin in Adam.
1207
01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:19.439
So after Augustine, the Roman Catholic
Church, by the early Middle Ages
1208
01:48:19.720 --> 01:48:25.199
itself begins to soften this position,
and they bring in the notion that no
1209
01:48:25.479 --> 01:48:30.039
infants are not automatically damned, like
Augustine said, and Augustine clearly taught that
1210
01:48:30.079 --> 01:48:34.800
it's called the mass damnata. Everyone
in Adam is a damned mass mass damnata,
1211
01:48:35.760 --> 01:48:43.000
a big ball of damnation. When
they soften this with infant limbo,
1212
01:48:43.199 --> 01:48:48.680
they say infants are not guilty of
any actual sin. The only thing that
1213
01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:54.399
they have is the deprivation of what
Ramakatas call original grace. I think,
1214
01:48:54.439 --> 01:48:58.880
as Orthodox we could agree that all
men have the effects of adam sin,
1215
01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:02.319
and one of those effects is the
deprivation of grace or the life of the
1216
01:49:02.359 --> 01:49:09.520
Holy Spirit. So we agree there. But over time the Romancallity Church then
1217
01:49:09.560 --> 01:49:15.039
eventually even says and confirms that,
well, there's infant limbo. And I
1218
01:49:15.119 --> 01:49:17.520
think around that medieval period too,
when they talk about infant limbo is when
1219
01:49:17.520 --> 01:49:24.560
they also say it's because they're not
guilty of actual sin. That's a specific
1220
01:49:24.640 --> 01:49:29.039
rejection of the Augustinian position, because
Augustine believed that infants were damned if they
1221
01:49:29.039 --> 01:49:32.119
weren't baptized, and that's why the
limbo doctrine is a softening of that.
1222
01:49:32.439 --> 01:49:40.640
Anyway, the Orthodox position does not
argue that there's any taint. It's really
1223
01:49:40.720 --> 01:49:44.760
the only meaning of taint is of
original sin, is that there's a deprivation
1224
01:49:44.920 --> 01:49:48.039
of grace. But we don't and
never said that infants were damned or anything
1225
01:49:48.119 --> 01:49:53.520
like that. And also, the
Augustinian notion of original sin is intimately tied
1226
01:49:53.600 --> 01:49:58.720
up with the Augustinian view of anthropology. So Augustine, because he collapses nature
1227
01:49:58.760 --> 01:50:03.600
in person the Trinity. He also
collapses nature in person in human anthropology,
1228
01:50:04.199 --> 01:50:08.840
so all men are just manifestations of
the nature of Adam. He doesn't have
1229
01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:13.079
a consistent distinction between nature and person
and humans, and so he doesn't understand,
1230
01:50:13.119 --> 01:50:16.439
for example, recapitulation, that all
of our nature is recapitulated in Christ
1231
01:50:16.479 --> 01:50:19.560
and that's why all men are resurrected, for example, instead of God.
1232
01:50:19.640 --> 01:50:23.960
He struggles with why the reprobate would
even be resurrected at all. They have
1233
01:50:24.039 --> 01:50:28.680
no connection to Christ, which shows
us that he doesn't teach recapitulation. So
1234
01:50:29.000 --> 01:50:32.000
the Orthodox view is pretty much all
the fathers in the East teach recapitulation.
1235
01:50:32.079 --> 01:50:39.279
Since Aeronaeus that Christ recapitulates our whole
nature. That means that what determines our
1236
01:50:39.319 --> 01:50:44.520
experience of the escaton as to either
ill will or ever well being or ever
1237
01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:48.399
ill being is based on our personal
mode of willing. So even though our
1238
01:50:48.520 --> 01:50:55.800
nature is restored, each individual person, each individual hypostasis, will determine their
1239
01:50:55.840 --> 01:50:59.479
experience of the escaton based on how
they willed in this life. So even
1240
01:50:59.479 --> 01:51:05.319
though nature is restored, guilt is
hypostatic or personal guilt is not attributed to
1241
01:51:05.640 --> 01:51:12.199
nature. So Roman Catholics still tend
towards thinking that our nature is guilty,
1242
01:51:12.680 --> 01:51:15.399
even though they're not Calvinists and they're
not even Augustinian, there's this holdover of
1243
01:51:15.479 --> 01:51:19.840
this idea. And that's precisely why
they would even think that Mary would have
1244
01:51:19.960 --> 01:51:26.960
to be immaculately conceived for Christ to
be born with the holy humanity that he
1245
01:51:27.039 --> 01:51:30.520
has. I was just about to
ask a question about that exact thing,
1246
01:51:30.680 --> 01:51:35.000
actually, because like, like,
because you brought up how Christ came and
1247
01:51:35.079 --> 01:51:41.560
he recapitulated our nature for it.
So, but it would sound like from
1248
01:51:41.680 --> 01:51:45.000
a Roman at least from a Roman
Catholic view that with Mary being born well
1249
01:51:45.119 --> 01:51:50.000
conceived with it like, you know, because it's essentially that she's you know,
1250
01:51:50.439 --> 01:51:55.359
not born with the stain of original
sin, right, correct, So
1251
01:51:55.800 --> 01:52:00.399
by default, if Christ came to
recapitulate, you know, our nature,
1252
01:52:00.119 --> 01:52:04.039
what exactly would that imply for the
nature of uh, you know, the
1253
01:52:04.119 --> 01:52:08.239
theotokos first, So I guess I'm
trying to understand their part as well,
1254
01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:11.159
at least from well again, So
the key, the key element here is
1255
01:52:11.199 --> 01:52:14.840
that you know, we think she
did die, she did if she experienced
1256
01:52:14.840 --> 01:52:16.880
the same effects of original sin as
everyone else, which is which is to
1257
01:52:17.039 --> 01:52:21.960
undergo death. So right, So
even though she was graced in terms of
1258
01:52:23.039 --> 01:52:26.800
the presence of the Holy Spirit from
from out throughout her whole life, it
1259
01:52:26.920 --> 01:52:30.359
doesn't mean that she had to be
preserved from death. And that's why they
1260
01:52:30.399 --> 01:52:33.560
will even though they have in the
in the Uniate churches the feast of dormision
1261
01:52:34.079 --> 01:52:38.359
like dormsician means she she went to
sleep, means she died. If you
1262
01:52:38.439 --> 01:52:43.079
die, that means you're a son
or daughter of Adam. So wouldn't that
1263
01:52:43.239 --> 01:52:49.680
so if she was already born without
that particular stain from their perspective, then
1264
01:52:49.840 --> 01:52:56.239
wouldn't that essentially like what wouldn't that
in blood that she's not like she's not
1265
01:52:56.439 --> 01:53:00.720
necessarily of a human nature in the
same is that we are, but rather
1266
01:53:00.880 --> 01:53:03.239
like some kind of like a I
don't know whether to say, like a
1267
01:53:03.319 --> 01:53:09.560
divine or quasi divine nature. I
guess you could say maybe. I don't
1268
01:53:09.560 --> 01:53:13.119
think they intended to mean that,
but I do think that the reason that
1269
01:53:13.399 --> 01:53:17.920
you get these very odd, uh
modern pushes within the Roman Catholic sphere for
1270
01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:23.960
Mary to be co redemptrics to be
given these higher and higher and higher titles
1271
01:53:24.520 --> 01:53:28.920
ultimately goes back to these issues.
Mm hmm, So like that would they
1272
01:53:28.960 --> 01:53:31.640
all? Do they also believe that
like she was not because she didn't have
1273
01:53:31.760 --> 01:53:40.840
that staying that she's also not capable
of sending either. I don't know what
1274
01:53:40.960 --> 01:53:44.119
I would say about the possibility or
that if there's if there was any real
1275
01:53:44.600 --> 01:53:51.920
potentiality, but I just think they
would say that there was consistent operative grace
1276
01:53:53.119 --> 01:53:57.000
or or whatever or sanctifying grace in
Mary that she would not sin. I
1277
01:53:57.039 --> 01:54:01.239
don't know, okay, okay,
because I've heard like mixed responses to that
1278
01:54:01.399 --> 01:54:05.600
from various people. I heard some
say that like Mary, you know,
1279
01:54:05.800 --> 01:54:12.159
it was effectively incapable of being able
to sin in herself because of like her
1280
01:54:12.920 --> 01:54:16.439
being born without that particular stain in
their understanding of such at least. And
1281
01:54:16.560 --> 01:54:20.840
I guess they kind of had me
questioning the notion because it seems like I
1282
01:54:20.920 --> 01:54:26.119
guess you could say, in at
least by that very belief of the immaculate
1283
01:54:26.199 --> 01:54:30.159
conception for itself. I think even
though I think that when people try to
1284
01:54:30.199 --> 01:54:35.760
say like old calfulars worship Mary,
etc. I think they might I think
1285
01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:41.079
what they're at least trying to say
when they say it towards Roman Catholics.
1286
01:54:41.960 --> 01:54:45.159
Would you say that maybe have more
to do with the particular dogmuth the immaculate
1287
01:54:45.199 --> 01:54:49.079
conception, rather than its just purely
being based upon like you know, the
1288
01:54:49.199 --> 01:54:55.720
veneration of the Blessed Mother. Yeah, I think it's more so those things.
1289
01:54:56.399 --> 01:55:00.439
And again I think ultimately the Maculate
conception stuff is all about up with
1290
01:55:00.479 --> 01:55:06.359
the traces and the remnants of the
Augustinian tendency towards that view of original sin.
1291
01:55:08.600 --> 01:55:11.840
Oh yeah, guys, good thanks
man appreciation. Yeah, great question,
1292
01:55:11.920 --> 01:55:15.880
and I did do There is a
fuller, longer treatment of this discussion.
1293
01:55:15.039 --> 01:55:20.439
Now Here is the famous Irena As
quote about recapitulation, which again you
1294
01:55:20.760 --> 01:55:29.000
will not find this. I mean, it would be an interesting experiment to
1295
01:55:29.159 --> 01:55:34.680
see if there's any Latin fathers after
Augustine that do believe in recapitulation. I'm
1296
01:55:34.760 --> 01:55:40.279
not aware of any. It could
exist. There might be something that we're
1297
01:55:40.319 --> 01:55:42.600
just because there a lot of stuff
still hasn't been translated, so maybe there
1298
01:55:42.640 --> 01:55:47.600
is something out there. But what
you see that's very common in the East.
1299
01:55:48.920 --> 01:55:55.039
We find it in Cyril of Alexandria, we find it in John Damascus,
1300
01:55:55.439 --> 01:56:00.119
we find it everywhere in Saint Maximus, this idea that Christ recapitulates all
1301
01:56:00.199 --> 01:56:05.960
of human nature and that the redemption
of Christ is cosmic and scope because of
1302
01:56:06.079 --> 01:56:12.880
Romans eight. This is a really
strong argument against Roman Catholicism because even though
1303
01:56:12.920 --> 01:56:15.960
it might technically sort of be there, how would something that's so fundamental to
1304
01:56:16.039 --> 01:56:24.039
Christology and the Seven Councils be forgotten
and lost in the West Because this is
1305
01:56:24.079 --> 01:56:27.800
related to the Heroine of Hades too, right, which Roman Catholics maybe they
1306
01:56:28.119 --> 01:56:31.520
technically confess it, but it doesn't
really have any relevance to their theology beyond
1307
01:56:31.640 --> 01:56:38.600
just some sort of abstract speculation in
some manual somewhere. Quite Yeah, I
1308
01:56:38.760 --> 01:56:45.079
was going to add concerning the imact
conceptionally and Mary's free will from the Roman
1309
01:56:45.159 --> 01:56:50.479
Catholic position, they're probably influenced by
Augustine. Yeah, and he's kind of
1310
01:56:50.600 --> 01:56:57.520
definition of free will that you find
nature and grace, which is totally foreign
1311
01:56:58.439 --> 01:57:03.720
to Orthodoxy in terms of how we
define will and choice and things like that.
1312
01:57:04.319 --> 01:57:08.199
So yeah, Augustin that I cover
that in that in the three hour
1313
01:57:08.560 --> 01:57:14.359
august and Original Sin taught because Augustine's
view of willing is very similar to Libido
1314
01:57:14.439 --> 01:57:18.600
Dominondi. So he thinks that fallen
man is sort of even though he's not
1315
01:57:19.680 --> 01:57:25.560
he's not a Lutheran or a Calvinist. He thinks that the will of man
1316
01:57:25.720 --> 01:57:30.520
is directed invariably in two directions.
It's either directed towards creatures and therefore sin,
1317
01:57:31.279 --> 01:57:38.640
or it's directed towards God. So
there's this dialectical that's the only options
1318
01:57:38.680 --> 01:57:42.720
in Augustine. This is why,
for example, he thinks that the marital
1319
01:57:42.800 --> 01:57:46.760
bed and marital unions have to contain
some venial sin, because there's no way
1320
01:57:46.840 --> 01:57:50.520
that you could be enraptured with God
if you're enraptured with your wife, who's
1321
01:57:50.520 --> 01:57:57.239
a creature. So he himself says
that he struggles with understanding how marital relations
1322
01:57:57.279 --> 01:58:00.439
can be sacramental, and he says
there has to in marriage be some benal
1323
01:58:00.520 --> 01:58:04.239
sin and sexuality. Well, how
can you have a necessary sin in terms
1324
01:58:04.279 --> 01:58:09.520
of a sacrament. It doesn't make
any sense. But it's all misunderstood because
1325
01:58:09.600 --> 01:58:15.479
Augustine has a dialectical view of willing. So he thinks that you will either
1326
01:58:15.039 --> 01:58:18.520
for God or for creatures, and
that's the only only options. And so
1327
01:58:18.600 --> 01:58:24.359
it's a dialectical willing that's either for
virtue and grace in God or sin.
1328
01:58:24.560 --> 01:58:30.039
That's it. So he doesn't have
a conception of free will defined as the
1329
01:58:30.119 --> 01:58:33.279
ability to will multiple goods. So
the rest of the Church, when they
1330
01:58:33.399 --> 01:58:36.159
talk about what it means to have
free will, it means to have a
1331
01:58:36.279 --> 01:58:40.680
choice amongst options. So, for
example, in the Garden of Eden,
1332
01:58:40.760 --> 01:58:45.239
Adam and Eve they had free will, there was no fall. So how
1333
01:58:45.279 --> 01:58:49.720
can we define free will as dialectical
willing in terms of good or evil?
1334
01:58:50.840 --> 01:58:55.840
It's not so that Augustine and I
imagine the Roman Catholics would fall on this.
1335
01:58:59.079 --> 01:59:04.600
She would never just like in the
Escaton the Saints wouldn't choose yes bad.
1336
01:59:05.239 --> 01:59:13.640
Because Augustine defines a free will is
a perfected will that only chooses the
1337
01:59:13.720 --> 01:59:15.800
good, which is God. Well
that and he also thinks that you wouldn't
1338
01:59:15.800 --> 01:59:19.640
even want to will anything else because
in the Beativic vision, your intellect would
1339
01:59:19.640 --> 01:59:31.760
be satiated, because he does teach
basically Beativic vision. So for those that
1340
01:59:31.840 --> 01:59:45.000
are interested, here is the the
talk that we did a couple of years
1341
01:59:45.039 --> 02:00:01.239
ago on Augustine and original sin.
So we're looking for Rum Catholics principally today.
1342
02:00:01.319 --> 02:00:08.479
I mean, I will entertain or
take Islamic arguments Protestants if they want
1343
02:00:08.520 --> 02:00:14.720
to chime in, but primarily we're
trying to focus on tonistic Roman Catholic argumentation.
1344
02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:23.840
If we have any Catholics, Dion, Hey care, Yeah, there
1345
02:00:23.880 --> 02:00:30.079
we go. Okay. So I've
been studying different arguments against Taoheed, and
1346
02:00:30.199 --> 02:00:34.520
I've heard you give a few arguments, and I've heard I've been studying a
1347
02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:40.760
few different articles too. So I
was talking with a Muslim about does the
1348
02:00:40.880 --> 02:00:47.680
law possess eternally different type of like
interpersonal attributes and qualities, And he was
1349
02:00:47.760 --> 02:00:53.960
saying yes, but he was appealing
to like Cambridge Cambridge properties and things like
1350
02:00:54.079 --> 02:00:57.600
that. So I'm just curious,
like, how would you argue against the
1351
02:00:57.720 --> 02:01:03.039
Muslim making those type of appeals?
Would you even do that? Well,
1352
02:01:03.079 --> 02:01:09.119
I mean, you can appeal to
modern philosophical argumentations. I guess I don't
1353
02:01:09.119 --> 02:01:14.239
have a problem necessarily doing that,
But how does that appeal like really solve,
1354
02:01:14.359 --> 02:01:18.600
for example, the issues of the
relationship of Allah to his attributes?
1355
02:01:18.680 --> 02:01:21.239
Right? So, if, for
example, if you watch the the Bo
1356
02:01:21.399 --> 02:01:27.479
Branson Jake debate, have you seen
that one a lot a bit ago?
1357
02:01:27.720 --> 02:01:30.399
I probably have to watch it again
though, Yeah, I mean, the
1358
02:01:31.119 --> 02:01:36.600
debate then centers on if you say
that Allah really is distinct from his attributes.
1359
02:01:38.359 --> 02:01:42.199
Then the question that arises is,
Okay, are the attributes do they
1360
02:01:42.279 --> 02:01:47.960
possess a sayeity? Because Jake's argument
was that you as a trinityranary consistent because
1361
02:01:48.399 --> 02:01:53.520
divinity equals a sayety. The father
has a sayity, but the son lacks
1362
02:01:53.560 --> 02:01:57.479
a saety. Therefore the son is
not fully divine. But doctor Branson shows
1363
02:01:57.520 --> 02:02:01.079
that not even you believe on your
position and that divinity equals to siety because
1364
02:02:01.119 --> 02:02:06.399
the same argument applied to the attributes
is refuted when Jake says that the attributes
1365
02:02:08.239 --> 02:02:12.560
do not possess the saiety. Right, and then so it really depends on
1366
02:02:12.600 --> 02:02:16.760
the Muslim that we're talking about,
so right, and then Jake even seems
1367
02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:21.680
to try to bring up like an
essence energy distinction argument for Tealheed. And
1368
02:02:21.840 --> 02:02:25.560
that's what like the Muslim I was
talking do he seemed to do. He
1369
02:02:25.720 --> 02:02:30.319
was trying to say that a lot
of attributes are extrinsic. Yeah, that
1370
02:02:30.800 --> 02:02:34.920
most of the as I understand,
unless you're doctor Khalil and you're a Neil
1371
02:02:34.960 --> 02:02:41.000
Playton as Shiah. Pretty much the
Muslims believe in a real distinction between all
1372
02:02:41.039 --> 02:02:46.239
in his essence, I mean between
all and his attributes. Okay, so
1373
02:02:46.359 --> 02:02:50.399
what I guess what would be your
your you know, what's going to be
1374
02:02:50.479 --> 02:02:56.439
your first argument against tao heed Hm. It's going to depend again on which
1375
02:02:56.479 --> 02:03:01.560
type of Muslim is arguing. But
I mean, the first thing I would
1376
02:03:01.560 --> 02:03:05.479
just simply say is why should I
believe that your position is in any better
1377
02:03:05.600 --> 02:03:12.960
position when your main argument is something
that you yourself have to deal with and
1378
02:03:13.680 --> 02:03:16.479
have a double standard for. But
I might, but again depends on which
1379
02:03:16.520 --> 02:03:19.800
Muslim it is, because you know, if they it depends on like,
1380
02:03:19.880 --> 02:03:23.399
do they believe in divine eminence or
not? If they don't believe in it,
1381
02:03:23.520 --> 02:03:25.520
then I might go in the direction
of arguing like, well, then
1382
02:03:25.560 --> 02:03:29.720
how do you know a lot at
all if there's no eminence? Because it
1383
02:03:29.760 --> 02:03:31.039
begs the question to say it,
because you know, the chron says,
1384
02:03:31.119 --> 02:03:33.920
got all, it's not like anything
in the created order. So I'm gonna
1385
02:03:33.960 --> 02:03:36.760
wait and see how they if they
believe in analogy or not. If they
1386
02:03:36.760 --> 02:03:42.000
do believe in analogy, then I
want to understand how Jake went hardcore for
1387
02:03:42.359 --> 02:03:45.800
anthropomorphism, right, because he thinks
that Allah has an uncreated foot and an
1388
02:03:45.880 --> 02:03:48.800
uncreated shin. But what does that
mean? Well, you, he says,
1389
02:03:48.880 --> 02:03:51.199
you look at the context. Okay, Well you can say, look
1390
02:03:51.199 --> 02:03:55.039
at the context. What does it
mean to say Allah as an uncreated foot
1391
02:03:55.079 --> 02:03:58.880
in the context? And he says, or an uncreated hand? Or what?
1392
02:03:59.000 --> 02:04:02.279
Oh, it's all a grasping What
does that tell me? All a
1393
02:04:02.399 --> 02:04:06.600
grasps things. I mean, this
is why Sam Chumun, for example,
1394
02:04:06.640 --> 02:04:11.800
always brings up with those types.
Wait a minute. It says Allah descends
1395
02:04:11.880 --> 02:04:15.520
to you know, of he moves
from the throne and descends to the heavens
1396
02:04:15.640 --> 02:04:18.960
or whatever in the hadiths? What
does that mean? And Jake will say
1397
02:04:19.000 --> 02:04:24.520
it means what it says, okay. But to move and to descend means
1398
02:04:24.600 --> 02:04:31.039
that there's spatial, temporal, spatial
relations and perhaps temporality. So space is
1399
02:04:31.119 --> 02:04:36.119
something other than Allah. Right,
So if Allah has eternally descended from his
1400
02:04:36.279 --> 02:04:42.720
throne, then there's spatial relations which
are also eternal. So now you have
1401
02:04:42.800 --> 02:04:48.239
Allah and space, So you have
two principles that are eternal exactly. Yeah,
1402
02:04:48.439 --> 02:04:50.840
that's a good art. So it's
more of an epistemological army man,
1403
02:04:51.119 --> 02:04:56.680
and I think that's right. Would
you would you ever make any type of
1404
02:04:56.880 --> 02:05:01.399
arguments that the only possible god that
can exist is a you know, triune
1405
02:05:01.439 --> 02:05:05.319
god, a god that is not
only one person. Yeah, we argue
1406
02:05:05.359 --> 02:05:10.000
that all the time. Okay,
do you have any videos on that I
1407
02:05:10.039 --> 02:05:12.640
can go back and because I watch
all your lives? Oh yeah, I
1408
02:05:12.680 --> 02:05:15.319
mean I just put up one not
too long ago. Why the trinity is
1409
02:05:15.399 --> 02:05:18.560
necessary? Okay, that's on dire
eclips. And then you could watch the
1410
02:05:18.680 --> 02:05:25.680
critique that we did of Ed Faser. It's called like universals something critiquing Ed
1411
02:05:25.760 --> 02:05:30.039
Phaser. That video argues that I'll
check it out. Thanks you great questions
1412
02:05:35.800 --> 02:05:44.079
fortnite. All his foot is orbiting
in space. Well, remember, for
1413
02:05:44.239 --> 02:05:53.239
even Tom and Jake's tradition, the
argument hinges on perfections, and clearly it's
1414
02:05:53.319 --> 02:05:57.920
more perfect for all uh to laugh
than to not laugh. But I made
1415
02:05:57.920 --> 02:06:00.319
the point of saying, well,
isn't it more to eternally laugh and to
1416
02:06:00.399 --> 02:06:03.359
laugh? Once on that line and
forget it. And by the way,
1417
02:06:03.439 --> 02:06:08.239
if having a foot is more perfect
than not having a foot, then isn't
1418
02:06:08.279 --> 02:06:11.520
having more toes on the foot more
perfect than having less toes? You see
1419
02:06:11.560 --> 02:06:15.279
how silly this is? Literally this
is the silliness of how they argue.
1420
02:06:15.279 --> 02:06:20.159
And do you notice the what's the
commonality between say a Tomas in a Muslim
1421
02:06:20.239 --> 02:06:28.159
in Allah's perfections the metaphysical assumptions.
The assumption is, well, we all
1422
02:06:28.319 --> 02:06:33.159
know what perfection is, and perfection
has to mean that having six toes is
1423
02:06:33.239 --> 02:06:40.760
better than five toes. We all
know that Allah laughing is more perfect than
1424
02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:45.880
not laughing. So there's this silly
metaphysical assumption about perfections. By the way,
1425
02:06:45.960 --> 02:06:50.279
Thomas do the same thing. They
have these metaphysical positions that they think
1426
02:06:50.359 --> 02:06:55.840
are self evident and first and primary, which is why they're all melting down
1427
02:06:55.960 --> 02:07:00.560
every time we ask them. Why
are we supposed to think that that's the
1428
02:07:00.680 --> 02:07:03.359
case. You believe that your system
is built on that. But what if
1429
02:07:03.399 --> 02:07:09.560
I don't accept the first principles of
your system, Well, just grant me
1430
02:07:09.680 --> 02:07:13.439
my first piss. Basically, they're
doing the same thing every other system does
1431
02:07:13.479 --> 02:07:16.680
of system building, which is,
grant me my assumptions and let me convince
1432
02:07:16.720 --> 02:07:21.000
you of my position. That's what
they do, Father Deacon, or either
1433
02:07:23.680 --> 02:07:27.720
let me tell you a really cool
fictional story that I made up. I
1434
02:07:27.800 --> 02:07:31.159
don't question that fictional story because it'll
lose the argument. Well, let me
1435
02:07:31.199 --> 02:07:34.720
play the Let me play the devil's
advocate, Tomas, Why on earth would
1436
02:07:34.760 --> 02:07:40.239
you think that being and the good
in metaphysics is a fictional story. You're
1437
02:07:40.359 --> 02:07:45.239
just being a coping ortho bro by
daring to think that my philosophy of being
1438
02:07:45.399 --> 02:07:50.840
is a fictional story. You have
to start with metaphysics. Okay, why,
1439
02:07:51.760 --> 02:07:58.079
Yeah, that's missing the point,
right, They just assert? But
1440
02:07:58.319 --> 02:08:03.000
look, hey, in a position
based on on papal authority worship, why
1441
02:08:03.039 --> 02:08:07.119
wouldn't we expect them to just assert
authoritative, dogmatic positions that they don't think
1442
02:08:07.199 --> 02:08:13.239
have to be justified or given any
coherence. And it's so strange that people
1443
02:08:13.279 --> 02:08:24.279
can't even grasp what we're asking for
justification that that's and what do they do?
1444
02:08:24.439 --> 02:08:31.600
They just restate their story And I
mean either it's low IQ or like
1445
02:08:31.760 --> 02:08:37.239
we have talked to, certain paradigms
can be like operating systems that don't even
1446
02:08:37.279 --> 02:08:41.640
allow you to yes, to recognize
what's being asked, so they can't process,
1447
02:08:41.680 --> 02:08:45.359
they can't hear the question that's being
asked. Well, it wasn't that
1448
02:08:45.479 --> 02:08:48.439
the same thing, even tho it
was a different topic. When we were
1449
02:08:48.479 --> 02:08:52.760
asking the Muslims, can you restate
the hypothetical about the Qur'an's relation to prior
1450
02:08:52.840 --> 02:09:00.800
revelation And it's like their defense mechanisms
wouldn't even let them reset the hypothetical.
1451
02:09:01.880 --> 02:09:13.720
Yep. And we've seen this happen
before in what was it? First of
1452
02:09:13.760 --> 02:09:24.359
all, I noticed reading it in
Eric Voglan where he's talking about uh tiny
1453
02:09:24.439 --> 02:09:31.159
mustache Man's Germany Stones Russia, like
different kind of neo gnostic kind of systems
1454
02:09:31.199 --> 02:09:41.600
that were built in which remember it
says that during the trials they said,
1455
02:09:41.920 --> 02:09:48.479
well, we couldn't disobey orders like
that. Yeah, we weren't capable.
1456
02:09:48.520 --> 02:09:52.720
And I always interpreted that that they
were unwilling, And Foglan says, you
1457
02:09:52.800 --> 02:09:58.399
know, they built into the system
that that wasn't even a question. You
1458
02:09:58.960 --> 02:10:05.800
couldn't process that. And you even
see this with like trying to translate words
1459
02:10:05.880 --> 02:10:11.800
after the fall of communism and stuff
like that, that they had translators had
1460
02:10:11.960 --> 02:10:20.159
a really difficult time translating words that
had anything to do with the individual because
1461
02:10:20.199 --> 02:10:24.560
there was such kind of a hive
mind that they didn't have an operating system
1462
02:10:24.760 --> 02:10:28.319
that they can understand that. And
a lot of this kind of goes into
1463
02:10:28.359 --> 02:10:35.840
the philosophy language that Quin was talking
about with indeterminacy of translation. That doesn't
1464
02:10:35.880 --> 02:10:39.720
mean that, you know, there
isn't some sort of overlap. And I
1465
02:10:39.800 --> 02:10:46.680
think what he was saying is that
and kind of a coherence holistic sense in
1466
02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:54.439
terms of semantics, is that there's
no what was Quin's position, he was
1467
02:10:54.560 --> 02:11:01.800
going against an arguing against the classical
few of corresponds that words have kind of
1468
02:11:01.840 --> 02:11:05.640
a one to one they derive their
meaning through one to one correspondence with the
1469
02:11:05.720 --> 02:11:09.840
property entity which they're referring to.
And he goes through his whole kind of
1470
02:11:11.079 --> 02:11:20.159
critique of that and basically shows that
no, there's there's a sort of indeterminacy
1471
02:11:20.000 --> 02:11:24.760
unless you're immersed within the paradigm.
And he uses the Gavia guy right like
1472
02:11:24.840 --> 02:11:28.520
it's a rabbit running and that the
point is there is no one to one
1473
02:11:28.600 --> 02:11:33.319
correspondence. It could you know,
it's all kind of interconnected within the paradigm.
1474
02:11:33.680 --> 02:11:35.600
That could be ancestor it could be
food, it could be all these
1475
02:11:35.680 --> 02:11:43.279
different things. And so it makes
sense that if your paradigm has constructed such
1476
02:11:43.520 --> 02:11:50.640
that it has no concept to process
some sort of reality or understand it,
1477
02:11:50.720 --> 02:11:54.159
it has no meaning. They can't
a person can't understand it can't even understand
1478
02:11:54.159 --> 02:12:09.600
what's being said. Yes, suh, are you there fortnite? Do you
1479
02:12:09.640 --> 02:12:13.560
want to talk? Oh? Yeah, yeah it So I got a question
1480
02:12:13.800 --> 02:12:16.960
relating on your position on the essence
and energy distinction. Right, so you
1481
02:12:18.199 --> 02:12:22.560
firm right, it's a real distinction
between the essence and the energies. Well,
1482
02:12:22.760 --> 02:12:26.319
real distinction is a later term,
that's a late scholastic post even Aquinas
1483
02:12:26.439 --> 02:12:31.319
term. So depending upon what you
mean by that. If you think that
1484
02:12:31.479 --> 02:12:37.520
real means composition, partition or division, no, But if you if we
1485
02:12:37.680 --> 02:12:43.319
mean a real ontological distinction, yes, and so the orthodox response is that
1486
02:12:43.720 --> 02:12:46.720
the same level of distinction between the
persons is the same type of distinction between
1487
02:12:46.840 --> 02:12:58.199
essence and energy. Are you there? Yeah? My bad, I'm back.
1488
02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:01.760
Okay, do you have like a
like said definition you can give out?
1489
02:13:03.439 --> 02:13:07.399
I mean, the cap of Docians
did all this without scholastic distinctions.
1490
02:13:07.560 --> 02:13:11.159
So what do you mean? The
definition is that just as the father is
1491
02:13:11.199 --> 02:13:16.119
distinct from the son, so also
the essence is distinc from the energy.
1492
02:13:16.640 --> 02:13:20.039
Right, But this this varies across
interpretations. Right, if your Scotist you
1493
02:13:20.039 --> 02:13:24.680
would say that's simply a formal distinction. Which is widely different from a real
1494
02:13:24.760 --> 02:13:28.199
distinction, right, and so the
way to different interpretations off that. So
1495
02:13:28.279 --> 02:13:30.880
how would you understand the real disis? Right? So that's why if you
1496
02:13:31.039 --> 02:13:33.600
fall, if you follow the debate
when it gets to the point of Palamos,
1497
02:13:33.680 --> 02:13:39.039
the way that it would easily also
just cancel out all the Scotist arguments.
1498
02:13:39.800 --> 02:13:45.560
The argument isn't ultimately about distinguishing the
attributes amongst themselves, but rather what
1499
02:13:45.680 --> 02:13:50.920
do we participate in? So the
Scotist could never answer what precisely we're participating
1500
02:13:50.960 --> 02:13:54.760
in. And that's why, quite
literally, the debate with a barley of
1501
02:13:54.840 --> 02:13:58.000
mind just shifts right into what it
is we participate in. So even if
1502
02:13:58.039 --> 02:14:01.840
you wanted to say these distinctions are
quote formal, that doesn't do any good
1503
02:14:01.880 --> 02:14:07.680
to talk about what we participate in. So do we participate in a formal
1504
02:14:07.760 --> 02:14:13.319
conceptual distinction? Formal or conceptual?
Formal? Formalities? The wall Scotas will
1505
02:14:13.319 --> 02:14:18.159
simply tell you formalities are not purely
mental conceptions, right, I meant to
1506
02:14:18.439 --> 02:14:22.000
You're correct, I meant to say
formal or conceptual, Like, it won't
1507
02:14:22.039 --> 02:14:26.279
matter how you catch that out,
because the debate ends up being do we
1508
02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:31.399
participate in God's glory or not.
Right, but I'm still okay, So
1509
02:14:31.560 --> 02:14:35.199
I guess you now, okay,
So what would you say if I simply
1510
02:14:35.239 --> 02:14:39.239
say that it can saptual distinction is
a distinction with a basis in the thing
1511
02:14:39.319 --> 02:14:43.840
itself or a basis in reality.
Right, Why do I need to draw
1512
02:14:43.920 --> 02:14:48.720
a big onto logical division so to
speak, between the essence? So just
1513
02:14:48.880 --> 02:14:50.239
you just you, just you just
are you just said the very thing I
1514
02:14:50.359 --> 02:14:56.640
reject. So distinction does not entail
composition or division. That's fundamental to art
1515
02:14:56.640 --> 02:14:58.600
theology. So the fact that I
say that there is a difference between us
1516
02:14:58.640 --> 02:15:03.760
and and an energy does not until
division. So you just imported the Roman
1517
02:15:03.840 --> 02:15:07.000
Catholic type of or the thing is
though I'm asking you because you need to
1518
02:15:07.079 --> 02:15:11.920
divide the essence and the energies for
you participate in my aspect. I know,
1519
02:15:11.119 --> 02:15:15.800
we don't have to know. That
doesn't entail division. Distinction does not
1520
02:15:15.920 --> 02:15:20.720
inteil composition division, just like right, No, that's but that's just that's
1521
02:15:20.920 --> 02:15:24.920
okay. The just listen, how
you participate in one aspect of a different
1522
02:15:24.960 --> 02:15:30.600
ontological being. It's not a different
it's not a different ontological being because the
1523
02:15:30.680 --> 02:15:35.159
being of God let me, let
me explain between the same being in the
1524
02:15:35.239 --> 02:15:39.319
same way that there's a discision between
the father and the son. That's ontological,
1525
02:15:39.640 --> 02:15:41.439
right, But we wouldn't say that's
an ontological distinction. Well, there
1526
02:15:41.479 --> 02:15:46.800
are not three beings, right.
Ontology is not only related to the word
1527
02:15:46.920 --> 02:15:50.680
being. So again you're you're assuming
your metaphors. Well, again, the
1528
02:15:50.800 --> 02:15:54.680
being of God is an energy for
us, it's not his essence. So
1529
02:15:56.000 --> 02:15:58.960
you think being is simply the energy, right, You don't think you can
1530
02:15:58.039 --> 02:16:03.239
predicate that energy. You can't predicate
anything of the divine essence. You can't
1531
02:16:03.279 --> 02:16:09.319
predicate the essence exists. The existence
of God is also an energy. That's
1532
02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:15.600
the cappation argument is wrong when he
said that that the glorious right. He
1533
02:16:15.680 --> 02:16:18.079
says that the energies in the essence
of God are united in one existence.
1534
02:16:18.119 --> 02:16:20.560
Would you say he was wrong,
Well, the way that they're united is
1535
02:16:20.640 --> 02:16:24.439
in the mode of the persons that
have the essence and that the energy.
1536
02:16:24.479 --> 02:16:28.600
And by the way, if you
recapass his essay, he shows that Scolarios
1537
02:16:28.319 --> 02:16:33.719
rejects the the tomistic view of saying
that the distinction is conceptual. He says
1538
02:16:33.760 --> 02:16:39.280
it's a real distinction. Sure,
I never said Sclorus was a thumbis thum.
1539
02:16:41.000 --> 02:16:45.959
My point is that the essence of
what Scolarius rejects an Aquinas is what
1540
02:16:46.079 --> 02:16:50.559
we what I reject that there's no
real essence in ury distinction. Right,
1541
02:16:50.680 --> 02:16:54.840
So have you risk would you understand
him to affirm a real distinction between the
1542
02:16:54.959 --> 02:17:01.000
essence and the energies? No,
I understand that for him, formal distinction
1543
02:17:01.200 --> 02:17:05.159
is his own category. Understand that, right, So if we take his
1544
02:17:05.399 --> 02:17:09.000
category, you know he's an actual
saint, right, and we understand I
1545
02:17:09.040 --> 02:17:09.959
don't acception. No, I don't
accept that he is. He's not a
1546
02:17:11.040 --> 02:17:13.719
saint. So you wouldn't accept laws
is a saying, right? No,
1547
02:17:13.799 --> 02:17:15.920
no, no, no, I
thought you said, excuse me, I
1548
02:17:16.000 --> 02:17:18.440
thought you said I thought you said
Scots chill out. I thought you said
1549
02:17:18.440 --> 02:17:22.840
Scotus my bit. Yeah, scalauris
my bit. There are very similar names.
1550
02:17:22.879 --> 02:17:24.319
I understand. Yeah, now we
understand he is, Yes, he's
1551
02:17:24.360 --> 02:17:30.079
a saint. Yeah, yeah,
okay. So would you say Scalaorius would
1552
02:17:30.159 --> 02:17:37.479
affirm a real distinction between the essence
and the energies. He affirms the palamite
1553
02:17:37.479 --> 02:17:43.239
position, right, But you would
not would you say that's a real distinction
1554
02:17:43.360 --> 02:17:46.399
between the essence and the energies.
Yeah, because that's the whole purpose of
1555
02:17:46.440 --> 02:17:50.239
the whole teakon Po thesis. Well, yeah, so did you did you
1556
02:17:50.280 --> 02:17:54.920
read the t on p thesis?
Yeah? I've read his being a naming,
1557
02:17:54.040 --> 02:17:56.959
Essence and Energy of God and then
his second later work what are Divine
1558
02:17:58.079 --> 02:18:01.559
Energies? Right? Which is which
must small a dissertation because I want to
1559
02:18:01.600 --> 02:18:05.200
talk about those two things there.
So first of all, well, I
1560
02:18:05.280 --> 02:18:07.959
have a question for you though,
right, Can I ask you a question?
1561
02:18:09.840 --> 02:18:13.920
Sure? Yeah. By the way, so if you've read that much,
1562
02:18:13.959 --> 02:18:16.200
then you've probably read the Capus essay
right on essence energy, in the
1563
02:18:16.399 --> 02:18:22.239
in the in the Theology of Saying
Gnatus Glorious. I've read the half half
1564
02:18:22.319 --> 02:18:26.120
the introduction, like the historical aspect. Yes, I haven't read his Well,
1565
02:18:26.159 --> 02:18:28.799
this is just a paper theesis,
right, because I don't see the
1566
02:18:28.799 --> 02:18:31.840
relevance in his thesis. Well,
this is just a paper from a Uni
1567
02:18:31.959 --> 02:18:37.799
eight arguing that huh. I know, yeah, capsure is a union.
1568
02:18:37.840 --> 02:18:39.879
I am more of that. No, but I'm saying that this is just
1569
02:18:39.959 --> 02:18:43.239
a paper where he makes the point
that all those Scolarius likes a lot of
1570
02:18:43.280 --> 02:18:50.200
what's an aquinas The chief thing that
he disagrees with is Thomas's position on equating
1571
02:18:50.280 --> 02:18:54.120
attributes with essence. Yeah, I'm
aware. The thing is, I'm not
1572
02:18:54.200 --> 02:18:56.639
positing Thomas Aguainance's position though, Okay, so if I'm if we're going to
1573
02:18:56.719 --> 02:19:01.760
argue the Scotti's position, then it's
going to turn because even Bradshaw says,
1574
02:19:01.159 --> 02:19:07.440
yeah, I'm not even positing the
disposition. I'm positive in Scalorus's position,
1575
02:19:09.840 --> 02:19:16.959
but Scolaris's position is I would argue
the Palomite position, right, and then
1576
02:19:16.040 --> 02:19:20.079
we go back to it's a real
distinction, and then I'm simply asking,
1577
02:19:20.680 --> 02:19:22.000
and then we go back to the
same topic of discussion. I don't really
1578
02:19:22.040 --> 02:19:28.440
see the relevance and talking about Schloris
was on the Thomas. I don't understand
1579
02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:31.079
why you're trying to argue the Scolarian
position. Then what's the point? Because
1580
02:19:31.200 --> 02:19:35.280
my right, if you read if
we understand Schalorous right in his third tome,
1581
02:19:37.000 --> 02:19:41.280
in the sixth Tone, right,
his commentaries on the Condoyos the barlum
1582
02:19:41.479 --> 02:19:45.600
quinas, Yeah, I can dinos. I pronounced things wrong, my bad,
1583
02:19:45.719 --> 02:19:48.040
but yeah, so we would understand. He specifically writes that a real
1584
02:19:48.079 --> 02:19:52.959
distinction between essence and energies between creatures
is because of their deficiency, and that
1585
02:19:54.000 --> 02:19:56.760
does not apply to God. Right. And if we read later on in
1586
02:19:56.840 --> 02:19:58.360
this third tone, page two hudred
and twenty six, he said that a
1587
02:19:58.399 --> 02:20:03.719
foam of distinct neither makes a division
of reality or a composition. But it's
1588
02:20:05.319 --> 02:20:07.040
yeah, and that's everything I've been
saying the whole time. That this distinction
1589
02:20:07.120 --> 02:20:09.920
does not intel composition division. That's
what I've been saying, right, But
1590
02:20:11.040 --> 02:20:13.959
that would not apply for what's understood
to be a real distinction. That's why
1591
02:20:15.000 --> 02:20:18.120
I said at the beginning that using
the terminology real distinction is really confusing because
1592
02:20:18.159 --> 02:20:22.680
that's a later scholastic definition, that's
post aquinas. So I said at the
1593
02:20:22.760 --> 02:20:26.600
very beginning that the level of the
distinction is the same for the energies as
1594
02:20:26.639 --> 02:20:31.840
it is between the persons. Yeah, but that differs among positions, like
1595
02:20:31.879 --> 02:20:35.799
I've said. Okay, so let's
make it really clear. Then, in
1596
02:20:35.920 --> 02:20:39.200
Leviticus nine, we have the manifestation
of the glory of God in time and
1597
02:20:39.319 --> 02:20:45.360
space, and the Israelites bow down
and worship it. What is that?
1598
02:20:46.520 --> 02:20:50.639
Sure? We say that's the energy. Okay, so it's not the essence,
1599
02:20:50.719 --> 02:20:54.920
right, Sure, But with your
decent on A thirteen fifty one has
1600
02:20:54.000 --> 02:20:58.799
to be contemplated with it. What
has to be contemplated with it? The
1601
02:20:58.959 --> 02:21:01.440
essence always has to be contemplated with
with I didn't. I didn't say that
1602
02:21:01.520 --> 02:21:05.479
it's not contemplated with it. But
you're not participating in it. Yeah,
1603
02:21:05.559 --> 02:21:09.879
sure, I'm simply saying that you
need to clarify you're not but not participating
1604
02:21:09.879 --> 02:21:11.959
in the identity. Yes, it's
not right. So you're participating in the
1605
02:21:13.159 --> 02:21:18.600
energy, and that's why the fourth
of the Palomite Synods condemns the tomistic position
1606
02:21:18.840 --> 02:21:24.280
of Precoreos Prokeros. Right, but
you wouldn't say that Barlum himself was a
1607
02:21:24.360 --> 02:21:33.719
Thomas. No. I think he
was a Greek monk or monastic, or
1608
02:21:33.760 --> 02:21:35.920
I forget exactly what is. He
might have been an aut
