Disinformation, Bias, and Who Controls the Story: A Traitors Masterclass

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[upbeat music] Coming up on today's episode of It's Called Reality. All the smartest women I know love reality TV.
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Watching that scene of her understand that Rob was a traitor, I feel like the first time I watched it, I emotionally blacked out.
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Going into, like, a high-pressure game like that where you have to be hyper-aware, like, I think that would send me into psychosis. [laughs] Yeah, that was so hard to watch. However, I watched it three times.
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[laughs] Traitors is this social experiment. It really is this microcosm. Especially, I think it's such a good example of how groupthink works and misinformation- Mm-hmm... spreads.
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[upbeat music] Welcome to It's Called Reality. The discourse for people who give a shit. I'm Willow.
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I'm Brianna, and today we're going to get into the most popular up-and-coming game show phenomenon of Traitors. There will be spoilers. This is not a spoiler-free zone. You have been warned.
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Actually, I've only seen seasons three and four in entirety. Oh, okay. Maybe season two as well. I have not seen season one of the US traitor, Traitors. Okay.
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I also say, I say Traitors, 'cause that's my Canadian accent, so I'm gonna do my best to say Traitors, Traitors with a T and not a D. You can lean into your Canadian accent. It's fine. [laughs] We're not fooling anybody.
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[laughs] We're watching the Traitors, bud. [laughs] Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure.
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If you're not familiar with what Traitors is, it's a game that's essentially like Werewolf or Mafia that maybe you've played at, like, summer camp before, where- Mm-hmm...
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there's a group of people, and they must decide who the traitors are amongst them and who are the faithfuls.
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And every night, the traitors have an opportunity to murder a faithful, and every day, the faithful have an opportunity to vote together to banish a traitor.
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And something that I thought was really interesting when I was, like- Mm-hmm...
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learning about this is that the concept of the Traitors, which I think was originally called Mafia, but it was originally a social experiment that was created in 1986 by a guy who was studying at Moscow State University to model how an informed minority can defeat an uninformed majority, which, you know, is very- Oh...
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Soviet Union. Yeah. [laughs] Interesting. That's so funny. I did not know that. I did not know that. How did you learn that? It's just common knowledge?
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I probably heard it in, like, someone else mention it in another podcast, and then I, like, looked into it more. Gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Interesting. Wow.
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Okay, so the game has been around for a lot longer than the show. I mean, I played, we played together. Somebody introduced me, and then I just fell in love with it, and then we called it Mafia when we played. Yeah.
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And we would play with, like, my Harry Potter deck of cards, and, like, the four houses would rep- represent the, what's it called, the role that you played.
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There's so many different versions, but yeah, we would have the mafia, we would have the innocent people, and then sometimes we would have, it's like an all-seer, so they, they acted like the shield, so they could choose one random...
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Maybe it was called the doctor, and they could choose, like, one random person to save. But sometimes we didn't play that way, and oh my God, it would get so heated.
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And you just really learned more about each other and who are games people and who aren't games people because people who are games people are, like, so invested and wanna play again, and the people who aren't games people would chug their beer and leave.
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[laughs] Yeah. But yeah, there's definitely lots of different iterations. And I think, yeah, I feel like I started playing, I said a couple years before COVID, and I hadn't played ever before then.
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I honestly feel like maybe we even played, like, like in elementary school even. Hmm. Like, I remember, like, the doctor. Oh, wow. But, like, I'd forgotten about that until much later, then, then we started playing.
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And then, so for the show, there's the UK version, which I don't even know how many seasons there are, but there's more than the US. I haven't really- Right... watched much of that one. Me either.
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So I think we're gonna focus more on the US series in this episode. I have seen all the Canadian ones. Have you watched the Canadian one? Uh, I watched the most recent Canadian one. Hmm.
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And I think maybe the Canadian version's like this too, but the UK series I think started with all, like, regular people, which I think is a very different show than- 100%...
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the US series, which has all reality stars- Yeah... from, like, all- Yeah... these other reality shows, which I actually pref- Oh, it's just a different show, but I actually prefer it.
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Like, I think it makes it fun to watch because it, well, it's bringing in all these different fan bases, and then you- Yeah...
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get to see how these, like, different skill sets that people bring in from these other shows, like, how they translate and how they work together. The Canada one is split, which is why it's- Oh, okay... even weirder.
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Yeah. It's half, I'll call them laypeople, and then half, some of it's reality TV stars, some of them are influencers. Mostly reality TV and influencers, but, um- Some sort of public figure. Yeah. Yeah. Public figure.
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There we go. Public figure. Season one of the US was like that, too, actually. And- Oh... you should really watch season one of the US. It's really good. Okay. Yeah. I'll have to go back.
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So there's all these different reality stars that are competing in the US one, and, like, the collision of those groups is part of the show, and, like, the different- Yeah...
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like, playbooks and, like, skill sets that you have from being on your different shows. There's, like, the- Yeah... Housewives, which are, like, emotional manipulation [laughs]...
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is what they're good at, and, like, high drama, and they're also, like, really good- High drama...
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at defending themselves and at conflict because that's a part of the show, right, is defending yourself against accusations, right? Yeah. Um- And communicating, like, what they need to say quite quickly.
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Feel like a lot of times, especially Survivor players or gamers, they have a hard time articulating what's happening or addressing the conflict in the moment because part of their strategy is very much, it's strategic, whereas Housewives are just like and it's- Right...
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very different style of- Living your life and also [laughs] the way that you play Traitors Right. Yeah, the game shows, they want control of what's happening, and yeah, that's- Yeah...
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hard to do when you're, like, going up against people who are so, "No, this is happening right now in the moment." Renegade. Yeah. Yeah. And then the love shows too have their own skills that they bring in, too.
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It's just, like, a different type of strategy in some ways, but I also think, like, they have- Are there strategies? Some of them, you know. Some are good and some are- [laughs]...
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not as good, but, like, I think- Okay [laughs]... that some of them have a higher social, emotional intelligence. They're good at the social game generally, and- Yeah, that's fair...
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they're good at, at least for The Bachelor, it's like you have to figure out who's there for the right reasons or the wrong reasons, right? So they're, like- Mm... practiced in sniffing out if people are lying to them.
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That's interesting. Yeah. I never thought of that, sniffing out if they're lying to them- Yeah... or what their intentions are. Yeah. Um, if their heart is really in the game. Yeah. No, I understand.
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I never thought of that before, actually, 'cause I just think of Maura, who, God bless her, but she just, she didn't even know you voted people out. [laughs] Simply just went for the vibes. Love it.
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No strategy, but then you also have Rob Roach. Oh, yeah. So strategic, but I don't think his strategy comes from the game. But I think what you said about The Bachelor people, that makes sense, actually.
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Yeah, it's just interesting to see all of those collide and, like, who does B- who people expect are gonna do well, and then, like, the gamers, right, are always targets immediately. Yeah. Yeah.
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And, I mean, they usually do, have done quite well in the past. It's just, like, this recent season that the gamers didn't do as well. Because, yeah, I feel like they are just, like, targets really quick.
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Also, I think because in the first two seasons they do do really well, and so that, like, extra puts a target on them for the- Yeah... new people coming in, which isn't super...
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Like, it's just, it's kind of a disadvantage that they have to work with.
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Okay, so there's kind of this information asymmetry from day one where the Traitors know everything and the Faithfuls will know almost nothing, and then they're, like, constructing the reality of the show from these incomplete signals.
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To be a Traitor in the show, you have so much control. Like, it's such an advantage. Oh, yeah. You start to manipulate who's making relationships with each other. Yeah.
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Because you don't want to look too pally-pally with your other Traitors, but then you're also like, well, you start to build relationships with people based on who you want to because of how you want to control the game, and that already is a huge advantage.
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I like the game 'cause I used to play the game, so I think already having an inside knowledge of playing the game, I think it's also interesting to watch.
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But I think, I mean, we can't talk about Traitors without talking about Alan Cumming. I almost put a ballgown on to film- [laughs] Yes... 'cause I wanted to get me into character. I literally almost texted you.
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I was gonna be like, "Should we just wear our fanciest dress and bedazzle our faces?" [laughs] That was a really, a missed opportunity. For film. Aw, man. Should we pause now and go get ready?
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[laughs] Yeah, because so much, there's, it's almost become this, like, sub game is the fashion. Like you're saying, Maura- Yes... she was, like, just there for the fashion. [laughs] For, like, 55 different wigs.
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[laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And but, like, so, like, I remember Chrishell having really good outfits- Mm-hmm... and all the housewives obviously have great outfits. And even, like, Zamzam, he had great outfits.
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All of them- Even Colton honestly had good outfits, too. Yeah. No, like, all of them, like, that's, like, a part of it now is, like, dressing up. Yeah. Even, like, Rob was wearing versions of his outfits.
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He would freestyle his nipples out overalls. That was a style. It worked. I'm unfortunately very bought in, but yeah. So I, Alan Cumming's iconic. Honestly, he is just so good.
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He really sells it, and I like watching interviews with him afterwards, too, like, talking about the character that he brings. I really like that. Getting to see Lala, the best. Y- yes.
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Every time I see Lala, it's his dog. It's, yeah. Yeah. She's so cute. [laughs] But yeah, he, like, he fully understands the assignment and he commits to it.
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[laughs] And it's, honestly, having a good host can, like, make or break a show, I feel like. Yeah. Because- Yeah... that's what I find in, like, Survivor. Jeff lives and breathes Survivor- Mm-hmm...
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and it comes through. And, like, I think that's a part of why the show is successful and, like, why the fans are- Yeah... so invested. And Alan- Yeah... obviously is really committed to this, too.
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Obviously, he's playing- Mm... like, a character, but The Traitors- Yeah... is so campy, you know, that it's like- Yeah... that's part of it. Yeah. It's just perfect. Yeah. Yeah.
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And he's there enough that he, you still watch him actually controlling quite a bit of- Yeah... what goes on. I don't know.
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I always look forward to him coming in, and every single time he'll have a pun and just, like, when someone gets voted out into the breakfast room says a pun, smashes their photo on the ground, we watch everybody react to it, and he leaves.
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And he does that every single episode. You'd think it'd be boring, but I love it. I love hearing the pun. I love watching what he's gonna do. I love the outfit he comes in. Like, all of it. Yeah. I really like him. Yeah.
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Yeah. You know what it reminds me of a little bit? 'Cause in every episode he has, like, a slightly different outfit, but it's generally they're, like, in the same, like, kind of theme for the season. Mm. I would...
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Different types of tartans or whatever. Like- Yeah... and it gets crazier and crazier. It reminds me of- Different hair colors...
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do you remember in America's Next Top Model, Tyra would always have, like, from episode one to, like, the end in every, like, judging panel, she would have, there'd be some sort of, like, little gimmick she would do.
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So it would be, like, getting, like, bigger and bigger... Or maybe it wasn't Tyra. No, I don't. Maybe it was, maybe it was Miss Jay. It's one of them. They would get, like, bigger and bigger- Oh, my God...
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shoulder pads, or, like, like crazier, uh, bigger and bigger hair or whatever in every... And, and you'd wanna watch just to see- I didn't know... like, what each episode's progression was. Yeah.
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[laughs] I never clocked that. That's so funny. No, I definitely, I don't think I ever put that together, but yeah, that definitely, that, it's the same vibes for sure. That's funny. Mm. Why else do I like The Traitors?
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I, well, I also watch a lot of reality TV, obviously, as we've covered, so getting to see some favorites and some not-so-favorites play again, I already have a buy-in, so I'm already invested in- Certain people, and I like getting to watch people I like and don't like on TV again.
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'Cause I already am- innately have people I wanna root for- Yeah... or be like, "Ooh, how are they gonna play? What's gonna go on?" So I think all of that, yeah, I, I like watching the people and the game.
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And obviously, as with all reality TV, I like watching it because I know a lot of people in my real life who watch it, and so it's something to talk about when it comes out. Mm-hmm.
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And just create my own social connections in the real world, which I always- Yeah... find super interesting. It's appointment television, which, because it comes out weekly too- Oh, I like that...
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which I really like- Yeah... instead of, like, a big drop of episodes- Yes... where you just binge it all- Yes... in a week or whatever. I'm so bad these days at binging everything at once. Yeah. So I like the bite size.
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Yeah. And there's so much less scripted television that's a- appointment television now. Like, the Game- Yeah...
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Game of Thrones, you know, it's like every Sunday night everyone was watching it, and then everyone talks about it throughout the week. Yeah. And then it's like the next episode.
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And I do think, yeah, these reality TV shows, like The Traitors and Survivor, like, kind of fill that void a little bit. Yeah.
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It is nice 'cause you're like, okay, this is two and a half, three months of something- Mm-hmm... I can, I get to look forward to. I do love a good binge, but it just, it, the high is so high, then it crashes.
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And then if you miss- Yeah... the initial high, you're done. Yeah. Everyone's already talked about it. No one wants to talk about it anymore.
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Even if you're, like, a week or two late, everyone's already had these conversations. I'm done. Yeah. So yeah, appointment TV, I hadn't heard that. I like that. I agree.
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Like, I just enjoy the game, so I think I would like even watching it just with, like, non-reality star- Normal people... normal people. Yeah. Like, I think I would enjoy that, too.
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It is just a different game 'cause money actually matters to them. [laughs] You know? True, true, true, true. It's like there's real stakes. Um- Yeah... wherein the reality TV star version, like, yeah, same thing.
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I like to watch it 'cause I like, like these people. I wanna see what they're gonna do. Right. I know that they're gonna entertain me, and it's, like, part of the campiness of it. It's like- Yeah, yeah...
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reality TV to the max. It's, like, s- Yeah... super self-referential, and if you like reality TV, like, you'd like The Traitors because it both takes it- It has it all...
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it both takes it seriously and not so seriously, you know, in this, like, perfect way. Yeah, that's a good point. The reality TV professionals are the cast, so- Yeah... they know how to perform.
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Like, the best of the best, or, like- Mm-hmm... they've already... It's not their first rodeo. They're familiar with- Yeah... how a TV show runs and operates. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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They know how to, like, get screen time and, like, do the in-the-moments, like, talking heads parts and, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah... all that stuff. Yeah.
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Um, provide good commentary and, and, and getting- Is it like watching your Sim? Yeah, uh- That's what you said about Love Island... it's, it's less like that- Mm-hmm...
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than, like, the Love Island-ness because it's more, the characters are more obvious. It's, like, less real. A little faster paced, too. Mm-hmm. But I, but I do- Mm... get really invested in, like, the gameplay.
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Like, I do just really like the game, and, like, getting so...
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Like, I get emotionally invested in when the Sim- the Faithfuls aren't figuring it out at the round table, and you're like, "No, you're so close," if they go in, like, the wrong direction or whatever, right?
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Like, I, I, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that drama. I agree, I agree. Okay. So do you root for the Faithfuls or the Traitors while you're watching? Oh, I flip-flop. I, I root for the person. Normally, I root for...
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Well, I don't know. I don't like when a Traitor gets caught 'cause I'm like, "Oh, they did it," but I also usually, I don't know. You're like, I don't wanna root for the Faithfuls either.
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I don't want the Traitors to win 'cause I don't want them to never vote out a Traitor, but I also don't want the Faithfuls to win because that's just boring if they get a Traitor out every time. So I don't know.
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I root for the person. Honestly, in the last, season four, I was rooting for Rob. About halfway through the season, I was like, this guy's playing such a good game, I want him to win. Yeah. I think that I agree.
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I, it s- it depends on the person and, like, who's playing a good game, whether a Faithful or a Traitor, that I, I wanna root for. But I think, like- Yeah... at my core, I'm rooting for the Faithfuls.
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I want them to find the Traitors, and, and that's why I get so mad when they're like, even though I know they don't have all the information and they're literally just going off vibes a lot of the time. Yeah.
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I just get so frustrated with them when they g- get manipulated so easily. But I will agree that last season, season four with Rob, I did eventually start rooting for him just because- He was just so good, yeah...
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just, yeah, just because I'm like, you know, the Faithfuls didn't deserve it 'cause they were so bad. [laughs] I was like, I'm, like, shocked.
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[laughs] Like, if you're not gonna put the pieces together- Like, if you're being that bad... like, you don't deserve it and good to Rob.
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But even to the very end, even in the last episode, I had some hope that Maura was gonna figure it out. I was like, you got it. She did leave some breadcrumbs. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. You got it.
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[laughs] Come on, girl, you can do it, and then she doesn't. I know, and she couldn't. So upsetting. Yeah.
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And it, watching that scene of her understand that Rob was a Traitor, I rewatched it three times 'cause I feel like the first time watching it, I emotionally blacked out.
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I didn't fully absorb everything [laughs] that had just happened. It was like when I was personally proposed to, and I don't remember a thing that my husband said. And thank God that Traitors were back on film.
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I just rewatched it and watched it again 'cause I was like, as it was happening, I was like, my brain cannot actually take in what's happening. I'm emotionally overstimulated.
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And then the second time watching it, I was like, oh my God, that's heartbreaking. And then I rewatched it again [laughs] because then I was just like... And now I need to watch how Rob's delivering.
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The first time I was watching Maura and, like, how upset she was, and then I went back and watched Rob's reaction to him delivering it, and I was like, oh, this guy is so comfortable [laughs] with uncomfortable feelings.
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Yeah. He was just so good. But yeah, that was so hard to watch. However, I watched it three times, so. [laughs] Let the record show that Brianna is as emotionally invested in The Traitors as she was her own proposal.
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[laughs] That's sickness right there. True. And I am, I am for it. Yeah, it helps that I have feelings and that I didn't learn how to control them at a young age, and I get emotionally overstimulated.
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[laughs] Okay, so just the threshold is low. [laughs] It's a low threshold. The threshold is low, yeah. [laughs] Okay. Okay.
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So- Let's say this podcast launched you into semi-reality stardust, [laughs] and you became eligible to play US Traitors. How would you play? Are you playing as a Faithful? Are you playing as a Traitor?
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What's your game plan? Yeah, it's hard because so much of it is based on luck.
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I guess if I was a reality star, then you wanna be a Traitor, because that, like, guarantees you to be in the game for longer, and you get screen time- Really?... every episode. Every episode is about you.
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Like Candace said- [laughs]... in season four, like, the show is called The Traitors. It's not called The Faithfuls. It's like you're the main character.
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[laughs] So in that hypothetical, like, it's like, yeah, obviously I'd wanna be a Traitor, uh, 'cause it's easier to win as a Traitor. Like, it just is, 'cause- Yeah... you have all the information.
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Your odds are just better. But I think as myself, reality me, I would wanna play as a Faithful, because being a Traitor, I already overanalyze and, like, have a lot of anxiety- Mm-hmm...
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about, like, how I'm being perceived- Mm-hmm... and not maybe understanding how I'm being perceived and all that.
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And, like, going into, like, a high-pressure game like that where you have to be hyper-aware, like, I think that would send me into psychosis. [laughs] Mm-hmm. You and me both.
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But don't you think, I still think all that stuff that you're saying is true even if you're a Traitor. It's just that you...
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I- it's like you perceiving that you're coming off as a Traitor when you're not, but you're playing as a Traitor. It's like you're worried about being perceived as a Traitor, and you are. It's almost...
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I feel like it's the same level of paranoia, and it almost might be worse as a Faithful because you're like, "I don't wanna come off as a Traitor, and there's nothing I can do because I'm not a Traitor." Yeah.
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And I think that either way- And then if people vote you out, you're like, "Why did they think I was a Traitor? I literally wasn't even trying to be a Traitor"... Yeah, so it's like, do you think you would win?
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Like, I would try and win. Like, you gotta believe in yourself if you're gonna go in. [laughs] Like, gotta back yourself, of course. But it's, it's so hard to win, like...
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And my downfall would definitely be like everybody's, but I think just, like, putting too much trust in the wrong person, right? Ah. That'd be so devastating. Yeah. It- it's like going through, like, any sort of breakup.
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I don't know if you've ever been through, like, a friendship breakup even, where it's like- Yeah... you thought that the relationship was one way, and it wasn't, and you're like, "Whoa," and that's earth-shattering.
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Yeah. Total mindfuck. I feel like it's honestly, [laughs] to almost worse, I feel like getting voted out would be the mindfuck. Getting murdered, not so bad. Getting murdered, you're like, "Oh, dang, that sucks.
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I really wanted to play." But I think watching people vote you out and then seeing who you trusted vote you out, like, that's really hard. As much as you- Getting murdered would be my preferred way to go out. Yeah, as...
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Even though that... It sucks, 'cause you, like, have no- Control... you have no control. Yeah.
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I wonder if they Survivor style do Ponderosa after and they all live together and talk with each other after the filming's done.
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I wonder what that process is like, 'cause I feel like being able to, in real time, talk with the people who just left before you and talk to people who i- left immediately after you would give you quite a bit of closure- Mm-hmm...
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as opposed to just stonewall, not talk to anybody for the next few weeks or months. I think they only film over, like, two weeks. Two or three weeks. Yeah. Yeah, it's not very long. What about you? Would you answer...
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How would you play The Traitors? Oh, 100% I need to play as a Faithful. I cannot take the pressure as a Traitor, for 1,000%. Yeah, just, like, for all the reasons y- that you said. I already overthink.
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I already am paranoid. And if in, if I'm playing people who I don't know and I care about making relationships, I also want to make genuine relationships. Mm.
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I think playing as a Traitor, I'd already be manipulating the type of relationships that I'd be building, 'cause I'm too focused on the game. I couldn't play that way, I don't think.
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And yeah, I wanna be part of the bigger team. I don't wanna be part of the small team trying to- Oh, okay... fool everyone. I wanna be part of, like, the big team working together. But for sure, I know I would never win.
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I would never make it to the end. I think, I don't think I would be banished. I think I would be murdered. [laughs] I don't think anyone would suspect you ever. I think you would be...
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Yeah, you would be murdered because you'd be, like, the lead Faithful. You know? Too Faithful. Too Faith- Yeah. Yeah. That- that's kind of what I feel like. Or it'd be like, "Oh, no one's suspecting Brianna.
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Should we just murder her?" [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] And I do- Yeah... think that you have quite a bit of, like, social pull because- Thank you so much. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's part of it, too.
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That's, like, the pro of, like, y- you're saying, like, oh, you really want people to like you, so you're putting a lot of effort into that, and that's not... Obviously, that has its cons, but that has pros too, right?
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Yeah. And, like- That's true... so then it's like, yeah, people like you. But then, but then I'm like, am I gonna come across like Maura and just be, like- No, you're s- 'cause you're-... not very smart?
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No, you're much s- no offense to Maura, you're much smarter than Maura.
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[laughs] I do also feel like, I think I trust my own gut feelings too much, so I'm like, "I'm gonna have an inkling and be like, 'It's Willow,'" and then just confirmation bias everything you do to feed in that theory, even though it could be, like, 100...
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It'll be 100% wrong. But I'm like, "No, I've already bought in. Must keep going."
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Th- this is the thing about the game in general, because, like I was saying, I love the game, but it has holes, and the main one is that you're not really incentivized as a Faithful to get Traitors out.
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You're incentivized- Yeah. Agreed, agreed... to know who they are and then keep- Yeah... that information until the end. Because if you get them- Yeah...
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out, the game just pulls in another Traitor, and you're basically starting- Mm-hmm... from square one again. Um- I hate that part. That part- Yeah... makes sense to keep a game show going. Yeah.
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Makes no sense to play the game. Yeah, I agree. I think that part's super stupid that you just- But-... if you get a Traitor out, another one comes in. Yeah, but if they get all the Traitors out- Dumb...
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in three days, like, b- back to back to back, you could still edit the show to be, like, like, 11 episodes or whatever. You would just, like- But then maybe you have to just do a little lie and a little re...
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You have to pull your edit hat on and just make it happen, but- Yeah... yeah, no, I agree. I think that part's dumb. I think it... Was it the la-...
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I don't ca- maybe it was Canada where they're like, "Oh, when you find a Traitor, we add $10,000 to the pot" But I'm like, that's not a good enough incentive. No, no. 10 grand. Yeah.
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Especially in, like, the celebrity seasons where, like- Yeah... these people are making way more than what the prize pot ends up as, like, in one brand deal. Correct.
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So this is common knowledge now because amongst, like, the FYP of Traitors that, yeah, it's your, it's in your best interest to know who the traitors are and work your game around eliminating everybody else and keeping them to the end, and then eliminating them one, two, three at the very end.
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But no one plays like that, so it's like knowing what we know, why aren't they playing like that? Yeah. Do you think they've been told that they can't, or like what do you, what do you think?
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I don't know, because at least in the American version, 'cause you didn't watch season two, but Sandra from Survivors, or no, you did watch season two. Oh, no. I did watch season two.
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Season two is Sandra and Parvati, right? Yeah. And Parvati- Yeah... or, I'm sorry, and Sandra kind of originates that strategy where she knows that Phaedra is a traitor. She said, has said later- Yeah...
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that she did know, and she gets to like final five, I think, before she gets voted out. Oh, that's right. She gets quite far with it because she knows- Yeah, yeah... she's like, "Okay.
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I'm gonna be a best friend with the traitor who's gonna protect me. They're also not gonna murder me- Yeah... 'cause they think I trust them- Yeah... so much, and they'll take me to the end." I'm gonna vouch for them.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she was, like, someone who originated that, and then I think at least she has said since then that maybe production discourages that or... But I don't know how they would. Obviously.
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[laughs] I don't know how they would though, 'cause then wouldn't it be obvious who the traitor was? Like, wouldn't they be giving it away?
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I think they just cast more chaotic humans who absolutely cannot be convinced of how to play in the best interest [laughs] of everybody else. Yeah. And they just let them fricking ruin it.
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Like, Michael Rapaport never knew his name beforehand, knew his face. He instantly peeved me off from the first two seconds he showed up on the screen, and- And everybody... yeah. He chaos, unorganized, evil chaos.
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Like, you can't c- you can't control or convince somebody like that. Yeah. And honestly, low-key season three of Tom Sandoval, like, he wasn't evil chaos, but he was chaos.
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And I feel like you have to throw someone in there, just be like, "I'm not gonna do whatev- what makes the most sense. I'm just here to get my..." Do they, are they, do they get paid? I'm just here to get paid.
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Yeah, you're just there to stir the pot, I guess. I also think the challenges- And I'll call him... should have more stakes to them. Like, I, I don't think that they should be, like- Yeah... winning money.
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I think the prize pot- No... should just be what it is, like in Survivor. Yeah. And- Yeah... the challenges should get you immunity or what... I guess, I guess you can get a shield. Yeah.
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It should be something that's, like, more high stakes so that the challenge is actually- Yeah... better and aren't just fake. [laughs] Like- Yeah... nonsense. I, I think that too. I think fake is...
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But they're so entertaining. They are. Parvati was like, "Should we just call, should we call this episode, like," [sings] [laughs] Oh, Tom Sandoval. What a gift, really. [sings] Yeah. [laughs] What a gift to reality TV.
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I will need to watch, oh my God, honestly, so iconic. He is- To quote that episode... the best kind of villain because- [laughs]...
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he's easy to not like because he is just, like, a sl- sleazy guy, but, like, he's not a criminal, you know what I mean? No, no. He's not, like, a literal criminal.
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He, he just, he cheated on his girlfriend of 10 years, whatever. Like, he's a bad guy, but, like, he's not out here doing domestic abuse or whatever, so. [laughs] Correct, correct.
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To me, in my eyes, from what I know of him, which is one episode or one season [laughs] of Traitors- Yeah... 'cause I never watched Vanderpump, but I'd heard, heard the goth. But- Mm-hmm... yeah, like, chaotic for good.
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But I, I love watching him and Chrishell just abs- Chrishell just absolutely hating on him for, like, literally just existing. I'm friends with Ariana. I just don't like you. And Tom's like, "Okay."
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And, like, every week she'd write his name down. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Chrishell, no reason. Tom, I just don't like you. And everyone's like, "Chrishell, get it together." But yeah, no, I agree.
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Tom is great T- great TV, but chaotic TV. And yeah, no, God bless. But yeah, so I agree. I think the challenges are, like, a performance of our entertainment, and that's kind of [laughs] it.
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And then they, yeah, they add money to the pot, which is kind of arbitrary because at any point the next challenge could be, like, double or half or they just choose how much money they're gonna add by, like, where the pot's at and all that stuff.
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I would like to see, have, did you ever watch The Mole? Yes. I don't remember it very well though. So, like, quick synopsis is there's a group of, I can't remember, 10 humans.
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One of them is the mole, so one person is trying to jeopardize who makes it to the end. And the mole, like very similar to Traitors, has extra information, knows a bunch of information.
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They're trying to sabotage challenges because, ugh, I can't remember exactly, but it's like for every time the mole sabotages the group, the mole has a reward. Right.
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I can't remember exactly the specifics, but essentially you wanna get the mole out, and you wanna get them out as early as possible of the game.
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So at the end of every challenge, they ask everyone questions of, okay, so you have to guess who the mole is, and then you're answering questions based on who you think it is.
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So it'll be like, "The mole is under 6 feet tall," and then you're like, "Yes or no?" And then if who you're thinking is the mole is accurate, then your answers are correct. And if you're wrong, then you- Right...
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you're not gonna get the right answers. Right. And then the person who had the least amount of answers correct, so who for sure is off the mole, they leave.
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So you want to know who the mole is, and you're incentivized to stick around if you guess who it is. Oh, okay.
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But I would like to see some aspect of that because it's like, okay, if the traitors sabotage this challenge, they get an extra incentive or what e- easily comes to mind is they get extra money that doesn't go towards the pot.
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They just immediately win five grand, or they immediately can veto all the shields that were won this round.
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Or if, if there was a side quest that the traitors had to do during a challenge, that would also potentially draw attention to the fact that they were traitors, kind of like the Murdered in Plain Sight.
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Okay, you have to... drop your sandbag into this gold hole, but everyone else is trying to get it on the opposite side of the field in all the green holes. Or something like that, where it's like, why did that happen?
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That's so random. Yeah. Like, why would one person go and do that? Yeah. And you have to do it without being caught. I would like to see something like that where it's like
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the mole or the traitor has to do a certain side quest, but people don't know what the side quest is.
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The Faithfuls don't know what the side quest is, and so everything within a challenge can be suspicious, 'cause you don't know what it is. Kind of like Murder in Plain Sight, but like every time you play the challenge.
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Okay. I would like to see something like that. Where there's a little more risk to the traitors, like- Yeah... yeah. And it gives Faithfuls an opportunity to guess who the traitor is without just blindly going off of...
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'Cause, 'cause right now they don't have anything, it's just, "Who are you?" [laughs] "Oh, I think a traitor would not give me a lot of information," or, "I think it's traitor on traitor fighting."
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It's literally just no information, which we might talk about later. But yeah, I think it would be nice to kind of give them a little bit of information to be able to go off of to make more of an informed decision.
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Not make it obvious, they have to kind of work for it. Yeah. I like that. Also, as a viewer, loved the season four twist of the surprise traitor. Mm-hmm.
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Um, I was so disappointed that [laughs] they got out immediately, because it had such strong potential.
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I personally as an audience member would love to watch an entire season where we don't know who the traitors are, and we're watching blind. I
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would love to, to see that, and then them do what they did before and show us all the scenes afterwards once somebody gets voted out. Okay. Yeah, that'd be interesting. I don't know, though. You're like, "No."
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[laughs] I think... No, I, I, I... That could be good. But I do, I do really like the gameplay part of it.
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I really like the strategy side of things, and so I do enjoy watching the traitors and knowing why they make the decisions that they make. It's fair. It's good to watch.
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But I, I think that could definitely be entertaining in like a social way, too. Okay. Of like everyone having their takes of who's the traitor and everything. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying every season.
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I would love a 10th out of every, like season 10 being like- Uh-huh... "This is super crazy and this is what we're doing," and then doing something like that. I think that would be cool. But I, but I do think
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in a broad, like every season, I like the way that we have it now. I just think it would be cool once to see everything from the Faithful's perspective.
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'Cause right now we see everything basically through the traitor's perspective. That's true, and that's why you're so hard on the Faithfuls, 'cause you're like, "How are you not seeing this?" But- Yeah. You're so dumb.
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Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so how to win The Traitors. What are our theories on, like, the best ways to do that? Well, as a Faithful or as a traitor? Uh, ooh, good call. Okay. Okay, first of all, as a traitor.
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I haven't seen it yet, but I would love to watch all the multiple traitors win together. Mm. I would like to see united traitors win. Oh. It hasn't been done yet.
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I think everyone ends up just turning on each other, or one person gets found out, or they're, one person- Yeah... gets worried about themselves so they throw someone else under the bus. I totally get it.
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You gotta save yourself. Yeah. I, I get it. Yeah. But I do think if Maura in season 4 didn't say, "We need to get Eric out, we need to get Eric out," I think Rob would've gone to the end with Eric. I think he would've.
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He didn't have any incentive to vote Eric out until Maura wanted to cut him, and then he was like, "I have to cut Eric." But why? He could've... No, he didn't. They could've just got Maura out at the final three.
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That's true. Ooh, that's true. I know. You just want- But then I guess he was like-... to believe the best of him because he's so handsome. It's my biggest downfall.
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[laughs] Because he's so handsome, because nipples out in the overalls, because snake. Who among us can resist those snake tattoos- [laughs]... on his biceps?
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[laughs] And I hate it about myself [laughs] because I'm like such an obvious fuck boy. I'm like, "I will not be tricked." Yes. Gullible. Mm-hmm. It worked. But yeah, no, you're right, they could have voted Maura out.
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But I guess once the temptation was there of, "Oh, this is a guaranteed win for the whole cash for me," then he took it. So I, I would love to see multiple traitors go to the end.
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I don't know if that's within human nature and, like, as you playing as a traitor, I don't know if you in your heart of hearts plan on going to the end with more traitors. Maybe you are just like, "I want to go solo."
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Yeah, I don't think it's hap- Um... happened in the US version at least. They always turn on each other. Yeah, every time. Which I think is a mistake. And it's early. But, yeah. I do, too.
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Do you know, obviously season 4, Rob as the traitor won. Season 3, the Faithfuls won. W- seasons 1 and 2, was it- I think Faithfuls win in season 2. It's two Faithfuls. Okay. And do you want me to spoil season 1 for you?
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Yeah. [laughs] Okay, it's a traitor, and it's Saree, and she's the best- Oh... who to ever do it. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I knew she was in season 1, but I, because I hadn't watched it, I, I remember her being in Traitor Cube.
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I didn't know... Okay, interesting. Yeah. She's just, her social game, she's just- I'm so glad that she won, uh, like The Traitors- Oh, God, she's just amazing... 'cause she's so good.
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Her, yeah, is, is- It's amazing to watch... probably my favorite traitor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um- 'Cause every time everyone builds in knowing her social game is unreal, and every time people are like, "I'm bought in."
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Yeah. It's like- Yeah... how? You know she's like- Yeah... the best social... You just know. I know.
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That's why season 1's so fun to watch because, because it's a mix reality players and, like, civilians, and you just watch Saree clean up. Oh, she's gonna wreck them. Those civilians have no idea what's coming for them.
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Mm-hmm. [laughs] And she just destroys that game. She's so good. But, and it's fun to watch, though. Like a puppet master. It's still fun to watch. Oh. And you're like- Okay, okay...
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you're g- you're glad that she wins in the end. So that is one where I was definitely rooting for the, the traitor. Okay. It's, it's Saree. How did she win? This is the strength of her social game.
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She gets to the end with another traitor, and they could have won together, but she, in, like, the final four, like, at the fire thing, she gets... It's Ari, who's a Bachelor.
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I don't know if you ever- Okay, yeah, yeah... watched. I didn't see his season, but- It's a traitor that was recruited, and she gets him-
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Somehow, I forget exactly the details, but she basically gets him to admit that he's a trai- a traitor and leave the game [laughing] on his own. 'Cause he's like- What?
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[laughing] He's like, "I don't need the money," and he like, 'cause he loves Cirie so much that he's like, "I want her to have it." [laughing] You're lying. That is so funny. Well, now I have to watch. Yeah.
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I don't even care about the ending. I have to watch. Mm-hmm. That's hilarious, and also she's just amazing. Yeah. I think if I met her in real life, I would be speechless. Totally.
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Okay, in general, what makes a good player, do you think? What do you think? Just in general. Okay, it's not necessarily the smartest person or the most strategic person. Um- Yeah...
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it's someone who understands, someone with high emo- emotional and social intelligence, because you have to understand the, like, information environment that you're in and the dynamics that are happening.
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You have to be a highly social player- Yeah... to win. I think you also have to have high self-awareness. Yeah, yeah.
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I feel like a lot of people have high, like, other awareness, and then their gap is they don't understand how they're being perceived or how they could be perceived. Yeah. I think high self-awareness- Yeah...
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also makes a good player. People who come out of the gates swinging, or even in season three, like Rob, Boston Rob versus Bob the Drag Queen, Boston Rob should've known that traitor on traitor
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big call-out on Bob the Drag Queen- Yeah... that was his downfall.
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That, that, that was his mistake, and it's because of, he was right, but the words that he chose and the monologue he gave, the way he did it was wrong, and that is what got him out.
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'Cause again, he was also puppet mastering. Mm-hmm. I love Boston Rob. I'm- I know... obsessed with him. I know. 25-year-old Boston Rob, oof. I, I can't. Yeah.
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I do think that if he, if he was a little bit more self-aware, and even in his Survivor game as well, he comes off very, what do they call it? Mo- mob boss, mafia boss. Yeah.
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He just wants to control so much, and it's like you just need to dial it back and let people make their own decisions a little bit as well, come to their own conclusions. Do the bread- breadcrumbs- Yeah...
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but don't force, force their hand. Yeah. That, that's something that Boston Rob and Rob Rosh have going for them is they're both people that other people just want to like them, you know? Yeah.
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They just have something about their energy. I think it's just, like, at least in Rob Rosh's, in his case, he has like, like, quiet confidence, but he's also, like, very handsome.
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Mm-hmm And kind of people think he's a little bit dumb though, so it's, like, non-threatening. Yeah, yeah. And so people just want him- Yes... to like them. Yeah.
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And because he's evil, he definitely uses that to his advantage. [laughs] And manipulates people. I'm sorry, I don't think you're evil, but I'm just like...
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[laughs] Well, a- as soon as Maura at the end says, "Oh, you're never getting a girlfriend. You're a really good liar," that just honestly sums, that summed it all up.
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But yeah, just watching him and then watching her understand everything he said had an ulterior motive, oof. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think y- yeah, charismatic is great.
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I think in your real life you have to have some influence in order to be able, as a traitor, to get people on board. Even as a faithful, I guess.
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Like, I will say I was rooting for Mark Ballas from Dancing With the Stars in season four, and he made it so far, and we got nothing. His edit, nothing. Yeah. We didn't learn anything about him.
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It, the, the show didn't make anyone fall in love with him. I was so excited to get to see more of hi- and he, apparently he's a really big fan of Traitors as well, so he was really excited to play.
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And you could see in some of, like, his last episodes that he has such a strategic mind and he's really smart, but I think he was, like, boring smart, too smart strategy. Mm-hmm.
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He wasn't, like, that dialed-up version of himself for the TV, which was so disappointing, 'cause I, I wanted more people to like him as much as I liked him on Dancing with the Stars.
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So I also think that, like, to make a good player we have to get to know you, so you also have to, like, kinda come in with an angle as to how you're gonna win the fans over too.
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Carolyn in season three, God, I just love her so much. She's- I know... so funny. [laughs] I love Carolyn. [laughs] But she's so, she is somebody, I love her just because she's funny and entertaining. Oh, she is, yeah.
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But also- Yeah... because it's, like, a unique play style that isn't played that often, and, and if only she could articulate it better. I know. That, that, that was the- She'd be unstoppable. But, like- Yeah, yeah...
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she just can't quite nail that part of it, and- 100%, 100%... uh, because she has the to- like, people just underestimate her 'cause they assume she's just this weird kooky lady, and she is. And you're not wrong.
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Yeah, and she is. But she's also more than that. But she also does know what's going on, and she's really smart. Yeah, yeah.
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And I remember in her first season of Survivor, Dylan and I were, like, super interested in her because she'd been an addict and then now works with a- with addicts, and, like- Mm...
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I just think that that- In recovery, yeah... yeah, I think that takes a high level, obviously, of, like, emotional and social intelligence. Yeah, she's a super interesting backstory. Yeah.
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And not that I know much about it, but just from what I know from her time on Survivor.
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And I remember, like, when she was in, like, she is considered, like, a final three or a zero vote finalist in Survivor, and I just remember being like, okay, can Carolyn pull it together?
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In her sidebars she is making such good points. She's talking about all the big moves that she made. Can she remember her script and answer the questions in the way that she's be answered?
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And she completely missed the ball. And she could have pulled votes. She had the moves. She just couldn't convince people, and I think that's ex- we saw it exactly the same on Tra- Yeah... Traitors as well. Yeah.
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Where, like, she'd go into the turret and she'd be like, and in her sidebar she'd be like, "No, we can't vote for th- we can't banish this person because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."
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And it's like, she's right, but then she wouldn't say it in the turret or she couldn't convince- I'm like, she has all the right ideas, but I guess in the moment, maybe it's like one of those things where she goes back after and she's like, "Now that I've reflected, I know- Yeah...
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what my gut feeling is," but at the time she can't articulate it. And yeah, so I totally agree with what you're saying.
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I will say that to win, in terms of logistical part of winning Traitors, I hate the whole f- last episode, with the way that it's set up.
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To win, you have to make it through a round table, and then you banish somebody, and then you don't find out if that person's a traitor or a faithful. Okay, fine.
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And then you're stuck with four or five people that then go, which they don't need to go outside, but they always go outside to a fire pit, and then one at a time throw some blue powder into a fire.
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They could just verbally say if they want to continue to banish or if they're happy to stop, but no, they make it dramatic and they throw a f- Like, it just takes so long to just get to the point.
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I'm like, can we just raise hands? This will be done quicker. No, that's part of the game. You like it? The over-the-top campiness. You like it? I don't necessarily like it- It does take so long...
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but I think it's true to the, to the game. [laughs] I hate it.
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[laughs] I w- I- At least if you're gonna do it, everyone throw it in at the same time, and then the fire turns a color and you don't know who wanted it to change, and then you go.
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But this one at a time option, it just takes so long, and there's multiple rounds if they do banish somebody. And yeah, I don't love that part.
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And even, I feel like they could, what they should camp up is more of a, "Okay, you're everyone who's left. Are you a faithful? Are you a traitor?" But it's literally just, "Willow, I am, and always have been, a
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faithful." And that is so boring for your finale. Yeah. That's how it comes out. I wish they played a montage of your- Oh... best moment, and then that's how you find out. I don't know. It's true.
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It's just anti-climactic. Yeah. The whole f- finale is just, I wanna fast-forward. I don't, because- Yeah... I am a true Traitors fan.
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But I just, like, I never truly look forward to the last episode until the last two minutes. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. It- it's like in, um- Yeah...
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in Love Island when they're at, like, a recoupling and it's, the way they edit it, it's like, "The person I want to couple up with is," and then there's like a 30 second of just, like, cutting to different people's faces, reactions and stuff.
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[laughs] And it's just like- Yeah... just say it. Oh, my God. Yeah. I get it. I mean, drag it on too long, it's like you got us. And then it's so anti- You can show it all. It's just, yeah, it's not campy enough.
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Y'all just made color, fire turn color, like 700 times. Now you're just gonna slowly- You're right... announce to each other if you're a traitor or a faithful? You're right. I don't know. They should go harder. Harder.
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Yeah. And maybe at the end it's like, okay, now you throw the color to the fire to show if you're a faithful or a traitor, and then that's at least a little more- Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah... interesting. I don't know. Yeah.
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Not fully fleshed out yet, just vibes. No. Traitors producers, if you're listening, you know, let's chat. As a viewer of the show, and you were kind of saying earlier, there's a lot of different...
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You're already grouped into a category of what type of player you are based on the show that you came in with. Are you a lover? Are you a gamer? Are you a housewife?
284
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But in terms of an individual player, each player kind of, I find they fall into two camps. They f- they fall into or a leader or a follower. Mm-hmm. And they each have pros and cons, but what do you think?
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How does it change the game to come in full steam ahead or at the end of the pack? It's a bad idea to be a leader at the beginning, for sure. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause you just put a target on yourself.
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You're drawing too much attention to yourself. Like, you wanna- Yeah... kind of just blend and be a, go with the majority.
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Yeah, so you're just, like, kind of building trust, staying off the radar and, like, just building relationships.
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But eventually you do need to step up, otherwise it becomes suspicious that you aren't, like, like Eric was, right? Like, if you're not giving- Mm-hmm...
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opinions, it's like you're either a traitor or you're a bad faithful, is, like, a common thing- Yeah... people say. It's like, "Not helping us move the game along, so like- Yeah... why are we keeping you?"
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Like, we might as well. Do you think that is still gonna stick? 'Cause I feel like the game evolves based on people watching the season before, right?
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So this idea of it's traitor on traitor, that didn't r- didn't become common language until you watched Boston Rob- Mm-hmm...
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and Bob the Tradeclean go at it, and then that season kind of adopted that language, and then season four immediately adopted that language. I think Rob C immediately was like, "Do you think that was traitor on traitor?"
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Just clocked it. So do you think that same strategy people will start to call out earlier? Oh, they're sitting back too early. I think that's their intention. Now that becomes the target. Oh. Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
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It's what makes it so hard, because, because you have such little information to go off of. Yeah. 'Cause you could interpret that either way. And- Yeah...
295
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so there's kind of no winning in how you, in how you go about things. Like, this kind of leads us into our conversation about unconscious bias, where it has to come in because you have nothing else to go off of.
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So it's literally just like- Yeah... what your, like, gut feeling is on whether you trust this person or not. Like, whether you think it's, like- Especially early...
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natural to their person to be a leader or a follower, right? Mm. And if you have these uncon- an unconscious bias towards a certain group of people, like we all do- Yeah... then you're just going to
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go with that, 'cause you really don't have anything else to go on. That was kind of Lisa Rinna, Lisa Rinna's downfall was, I think it was Jam Jam, was like...
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Or no, it was Colton, who was like, "Lisa's a big personality. She is not being very big right now." Yeah. Yeah. "She has played way too quiet."
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And just like you're saying, like, it's unco- it's unconscious bias, but at that point it becomes a little bit conscious. But- Yeah...
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yeah, you're like, I'm expecting this housewife to be their larger than life, especially Lisa, who's so big. Yeah. And is, she's just huge.
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And yeah, she played a very quiet game because she was a traitor, so- That's true... yeah, at that point I was like, oh, that's a good observation too, because- It was... you know, a lot of people are playing quiet.
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But yeah- Yeah... like you said, coming in with their- Yeah, in the reality TV- It's crazy good outfits...
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character version, yeah, it is slightly different because if you at least have heard of each other, like they're not h- maybe not involved or heard of each other, but if you know, like, who these people, then yeah, you do have kind of like an idea of what their personality is coming in.
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But I, I, I did a little bit of heavy reading on unconscious bias when, like when the people got Porsha out really quick- Mm-hmm... and they're like, "Well," because I think Porsha was the first one out,
306
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and, and they don't have very much to go off of, and they're just like, "Oh, uh, yeah, we're gonna go with a BIPOC person, Porsha."
307
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[laughs] Everyone just jumped on her so fast, and like that to me is more unconscious bias, where it's like- Yeah... we have this like racist
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unconscious bias that like, you know, white is the best, which is not a cog- conscious thought, but it's basically- Yeah... this like undertone of thoughts that all humans have- Yeah...
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that we're not aware of, that are like our first thought that we have that's unconscious. So it's- Yeah... it's not a willful thought.
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So you're, we're relying on all these like stereotypes that you have that maybe you don't agree with when it comes to the surface, but when you're going and making like very quick decisions and stuff like that, you're like, "Okay, yeah, we're rolling with it," and it's like, what?
311
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Yeah. It's- Yeah... we don't, if you don't have information to like fill that gap, you're gonna fill it with what- Yeah...
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you've been taught to trust and fear, and like what looks suspicious, which you've been taught these things like under white supremacy and patriarchy, and so like- Yeah...
313
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often, yeah, it is the marginalized players that are cut earlier. Um, I remember- Yeah... people were really mad about, I think it was season two when Peppermint was on, and, uh, she's- Ugh, yeah...
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a, a trans woman, but also a drag queen, and there was a lot of talk about that, about she was just basically just cut because it's like- Yeah, definitely unconscious bias there, for sure. But I- Yeah...
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also feel like, again, Peppermint's at a disadvantage because I don't know how many reality TV stars watch Drag Race, so she's also already coming in with people don't know her- Yeah... or they don't know much about her.
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Yeah. And, and so, and she doesn't belong to a house that people can easily say, "Okay, gamer. Okay, housewife. These are kind of the things that we're going to make you follow her."
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She's also a little bit of a question mark, a lot of a question mark, and it's like that uncertainty, gut feeling, I don't know, vote out, vanish. Meanwhile, good-looking white men- [laughs]... like Dylan Ehrann- Oh...
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like Broderose, like Boston Rob are just- Don't call me out like this. [laughs] They're shielded by their likability. And the system that they all belong to. Representation in media matters because having...
319
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And a source of diversity in news consumption- Yeah... matters because- Yeah...
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you know, when we're all in our bubbles, it doesn't give you an opportunity to like question it or like come up against it, 'cause you're just- Yeah. Yeah.
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Aside from that, how do you convince people to believe you, like Maura and Rob? Like what did Rob- Yeah... do to Maura to make that finale happen along the way? Like how did he pull that off?
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For me, I think part of it is he just remained calm- Mm-hmm... and reliable amongst the chaos.
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If you're going and creating relationships with people based on vibes and your unconscious bias, but you're more conscious of the vibes, you're gonna be drawn, if everyone is paranoid, you're gonna be drawn to the person who's not paranoid.
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And you might take a step back and be like, "Well, why isn't this person paranoid?" But if you're going based on energy and everyone is like, "I'm freaking out. I don't do.
325
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I'm so nervous," and then there's somebody being like, "No, it's okay. It's okay. We all, we can do this. We got this. Let's move forward. Let's..." They're bringing the energy down, which I think- Mm...
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Rob does very well. Yeah. People are drawn to that, and he doesn't even need to say any gameplay. He just makes people feel better- Mm-hmm... by calming them, and that is influential, I feel like. Right. Right.
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Otherwise, you could be the Boston Rob approach and just be very good at giving speeches. [laughs] And speaking to your people in the way that you know exactly how they want to be spoken to, laying down- Yes...
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the facts that you know they wanna hear, leaving out the facts you know that would trigger them. I think three as well, just having a good read on tailoring yourself to what each person needs and- Mm-hmm...
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building authentic relationships as well, 'cause the more that you can remember about somebody, the more that they trust you because they feel like you're listening to them as well.
330
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So I, I do actually think part of it is having a good memory. [laughs] Yeah. Which I personally have lost so long ago, but... Traitors is this social experiment. It really is this microcosm.
331
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Especially, I think it's such a good example of how groupthink works and misinformation spreads in a social network. Why don't you tell us what groupthink is for the group?
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I don't have like a specific definition, but it's like, it's like what happens at the roundtable is like one person will say a name, like with confidence and conviction, and like very quickly there's a consensus.
333
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And like this is kind of how misinformation spreads too, where it's not just from strangers- Yeah... but it's like people you trust.
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I- if there's people you trust who are saying something confidently and others are like kind of uncertain to differ or like to go against that because it's like kind of socially taboo to do that, then the claim just keeps getting repeated, and the rep- repetition reads as confirmation.
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And then that's just like what everyone knows, you know? That's kind of how I- Yeah... think about it. Do you have anything to add to that? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think what you said is totally nail on the head.
336
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I think in a simple way it's that you would give up your individual thoughts to conform with the group. And again, it's unconscious. You're not doing it consciously. Right.
337
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And I think it is, there are certain personalities that are more predisposed to go along with groupthink and other personalities who are more easily able to reject it or not conform.
338
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But yeah, it's really just unconscious conformity of just, it doesn't even have to be a leader. It's kind of, you know, you make a decision, you're like, "Oh, what should we do today?"
339
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And you're like going out with a group of friends. "Where should we go for dinner?" "Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know," one person says. I don't know, should we do Indian food?
340
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And they don't even really want Indian food, and no one else really wants Indian food, but they don't have any other suggestions, so they go, "Yeah, if that's what everyone wants. Yeah, yeah.
341
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Okay, yeah, okay, let's go for Indian food." And, like, no one even feels that strongly about it.
342
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I mean, some people could feel strongly about it, but people are going along with a decision or an idea without, like, putting their personal thoughts and feelings aside because they wanna...
343
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They're conforming with the group. So, yeah, I think you said it perfectly, and a lot of people say this at the roundtable where they're like, "Ah, voting for Dylan, I, I don't know. I just don't know."
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[laughs] And it's like, well, it's 'cause you had, you heard four people say Dylan, so then you said, "Okay, Dylan." Yeah. And it's like- Yeah... why did you do that? Yeah. Why didn't you put down who you think?
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And even if it's...
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Some people might not say who they really think because they don't wanna be targeted or they don't wanna be murdered and there are, like, good reasons for it, but there are a lot of people who just say, "Ah, I, I just don't know, so I just did what the group said."
347
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Yeah, because there's such a high social cost to be the dissenting voice in the room, and- The black sheep. Yeah, the game- Yeah... and in a game that's so social, like, it's even extra- Yeah... risky to do that.
348
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Like, you have to be a very... I actually think that the drag queens are very good at doing this. Like, they don't really go with groupthink as often, and they're, they really stick- Mm... to their own opinions.
349
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And I think it's because they're used to, like, in broader society, like, they're already people who don't conform, right? Like, that's kind of, like, a big part of who they are. Correct.
350
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Um- They've already had to announce that they are not part of the broader, uh, I don't wanna say status quo, but the broader system of heterosexuality. Yeah.
351
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They already have to say, "I'm not what everyone else expects me to be," 'cause our default is we, that we expect everybody- Yeah... is 100% straight and 100% heterosexual, with personal thoughts aside.
352
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[laughs] But yeah, they've already had to announce, and then if they're performing drag as their job, then they are already also, yeah, every day living in
353
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their queerness of just mostly, and then, sorry, if they're also on Drag Race, they're announcing already to the world, "Hey, this is who I am. This is what I do." Yeah. "This is me. This is my life." Yeah.
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They're very comfortable with, like, standing out. The rest, like, a lot of other people, like, a lo- and this is just how, you know, like, a lot of white- Biases...
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status ideas or how just, like, a lot of white people act, you know, in that, like, I don't want to, like, say anything, like, even if I don't necessarily agree, I'm just gonna go with the status quo because the status quo is be- Mm...
356
00:57:48.512 --> 00:58:00.052
it's benefiting me. Yeah, sure. White people and racism, but also- That's just an example... just if you're part of a majority, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If you're part of a majority group, then you have this groupthink already.
357
00:58:00.152 --> 00:58:10.222
Yeah. You're part of the majority, so you're riding that. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hence why there's so much backlash to, like, real-life activists and social movements, you know? Mm.
358
00:58:10.232 --> 00:58:14.792
It's like those aren't popular- Yeah, yeah... usually, like, to begin with- Correct... for sure.
359
00:58:14.972 --> 00:58:20.972
Okay, I wanted to pick your psychology brain here, where you have this note that there's no correlation between confidence and accuracy.
360
00:58:21.052 --> 00:58:31.852
Yeah, just, like, how confident somebody is is not related to how accurate they are. Like- Uh-huh... confidence is not a correlation. So our memories also, like, how confident somebody is in a memory,
361
00:58:32.752 --> 00:58:34.702
it doesn't mean it's more accurate. You could- Right...
362
00:58:34.732 --> 00:58:49.972
bet every single dollar that you have that yesterday you wore green socks, and you're gonna bet all your money, and you're gonna have a real photo in real time yesterday of you wearing red socks, and that's not a doctored photo.
363
00:58:50.012 --> 00:59:01.552
That's a real photo you wore red socks yesterday, and you're like, "I was convinced. I remember. In my head, I remember-" Mm... "wearing green socks. I didn't wear red socks." And it's like the proof is right there.
364
00:59:01.592 --> 00:59:10.341
You're wrong. So how confident you are, there is no correlation, so- Yeah... when people go in and they're like, "No, guys, for sure, they're a traitor.
365
00:59:10.692 --> 00:59:19.272
They're a traitor," or th- they're a Faithful, I know it in my heart they're a Faithful. There's literally nothing that they've done th- they're just not." Like when Tara and Johnny, like, "I just know them.
366
00:59:19.312 --> 00:59:28.732
I just know that's not them." You don't know anything. But your confidence, no, your co- your confidence doesn't make stuff true. Yeah, e- even real things.
367
00:59:28.772 --> 00:59:35.582
For this one, obviously you wouldn't know whether or not someone's a traitor or not, and there's an unknown to that, but even things that you think you know, you could be wrong.
368
00:59:35.692 --> 00:59:45.432
Just because you 100% are confident 100%, it doesn't mean that it's accurate or true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what we're learning is to be good at The Traitors,
369
00:59:46.432 --> 00:59:58.532
to g- before you go in, you should take a media literacy class [laughs] In which you will learn when you receive information, it's okay to be uncertain about it, and, like- Mm...
370
00:59:58.572 --> 01:00:07.832
anyone who is co- super confident in one thing, like, that's something you need to... You should distrust confidence more than you distrust doubt because- Yes...
371
01:00:07.852 --> 01:00:20.482
and then also ask yourself who is benefiting from you believing what you believe. Who- whoever tells you- I like that... that is confident in that information, why? Like, what do they gain from you believing that?
372
01:00:20.482 --> 01:00:32.232
And then diversify your sources. You shouldn't just be get- trusting one person and getting information from one person. Mm-mm. And, like, trust your gut to an extent, but you can't take that as truth.
373
01:00:32.552 --> 01:00:44.832
I think that's what I mean with the confidence. Trust your gut, but y- y- it's not, like you said, it's not truth. It's just information. Yeah. Do you have an example of how media literacy could play out for a player?
374
01:00:45.292 --> 01:00:49.171
If a player had taken a media literacy class, how their trajectory in the game could have changed?
375
01:00:49.252 --> 01:01:03.112
So we could use, like, Mara as an example, right, where she really o- she doesn't diversify her trusted sources 'cause she only believes Rob, and she- [laughs] Yeah... kind of believes him unquestion- unquestioningly.
376
01:01:03.392 --> 01:01:18.146
Like, she doesn't, isn't ever considering, like, what he is gaining out of her believing him. And she does have some doubts, but she doesn't, uh- Act on them... yeah, she doesn't follow- Or fully believe them...
377
01:01:18.196 --> 01:01:28.436
she doesn't follow them. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of how it could have played out in practice, right? Like, if she had centered herself a little bit more- [laughs]...
378
01:01:28.476 --> 01:01:32.866
a- and not just gone with what one person was wanting her to do, and just kind of trusting that- Yeah...
379
01:01:32.936 --> 01:01:41.406
they had her best interest at heart, she could have, again, like, diversified her information sources and- Yeah, that's actually a good one because- I- I, yeah...
380
01:01:41.406 --> 01:01:47.916
at the end, Johnny and Tara are trying to say, "It's Rob, it's Rob." They're, they're like telling her, they're like, "It's Rob," and she has a choice.
381
01:01:47.976 --> 01:01:59.476
She can either go with Rob and Eric, or she can go with Johnny and Tara, and she chooses Rob and Eric. And she even kind of says at some point, she's like, "Oh, are they right?" Yeah. And then she's like, "No, I've..."
382
01:01:59.536 --> 01:02:09.696
It's also like sunk cost fallacy. I've already invested so much in this Rob relationship, like I'm, I've invested too much, I'm gonna keep going with it, and then she doesn't pivot and- Yeah... yeah. Yeah.
383
01:02:09.756 --> 01:02:22.876
You have a note here about confirmation bias, and I think that's obviously something that she, a- a- all, a lot of players do, is definitely doing that, where it's like you favor information that confirms, like, what you already believe, and you're not gonna look- Yeah...
384
01:02:23.426 --> 01:02:33.156
at the information. Even though, even if the evidence is in front of you, you're just, like, not going to, I guess, like, receive that. Like, I don't know, how does that work in confirmation bias?
385
01:02:33.356 --> 01:02:40.776
Basically exactly what you said. It's just like, trying to relate it back to Traitors, was it Ron? Oh, Ron is a good one. Ron's a good example. Yeah.
386
01:02:41.056 --> 01:02:52.596
So Ron, and bless him, I wanted him to play for way longer, but the, I think that's confirmation bias at its core. Yeah. Where like quite early on somebody with like, okay, Ron isn't saying very much.
387
01:02:52.836 --> 01:03:01.896
He's giving me shifty vibes. He's giving me like weird vibes, and everyone's like, "Okay, maybe it's Ron, maybe it's Ron." And then there was like some votes for him at the round table, but ultimately he didn't go home.
388
01:03:01.996 --> 01:03:11.596
I can't remember who went home when his name first got thrown out there. Was it Donna? Okay, 'cause him and Donna were friends too, actually. Yeah, yeah. So this also plays into it. So him and Donna were friends.
389
01:03:11.616 --> 01:03:20.316
Mama Kelsey. Mm-hmm. Mama Kelsey was the secret traitor. She goes home, and then they look at him, they're like, "Well, they were friends. Mama Kelsey and Ron were friends. Why were they friends?
390
01:03:20.336 --> 01:03:27.996
They don't have anything in common." Mm-hmm. He's, they're probably friends 'cause they're both traitors, and that information kind of sticks, and there's no other evidence
391
01:03:28.916 --> 01:03:34.656
or other suspicions as to why Ron would be a traitor, but people just have it in their mind.
392
01:03:34.676 --> 01:03:50.586
And so there's all this stuff coming out that maybe there's more suspicious people or maybe he's not a traitor, and people just can't shake this information that they already have, and their blinders are on and are not willing to kind of go against the impression that they already have.
393
01:03:51.126 --> 01:04:01.636
And I think when he does finally get voted out, he says at the round table, he's like, "Okay, there's nothing I can do to change your mind, so I'm just gonna go around to each of you and just tell you how I enjoyed playing the game with you," and it was so pure.
394
01:04:01.716 --> 01:04:07.616
Yeah. And as he's doing that, a few people are like, "He's not a traitor. He's not a traitor. I don't think it's him. He's not a traitor."
395
01:04:07.736 --> 01:04:13.476
And as that's happening and as people are like, "No, it's not him anymore," kind of mania starts to ensue.
396
01:04:14.356 --> 01:04:22.956
And, and then someone cuts him off and says, "I don't think it's Ron," and then they kind of go to somebody else, and then Alan basically shoves down the round table and is like- Yeah... "We're voting." Yeah.
397
01:04:22.966 --> 01:04:32.216
[laughs] And then people rely on that confirmation bias, and they're like, "Well, I can't, I don't accept the information I just received that it's not him.
398
01:04:32.996 --> 01:04:41.696
I heard it, but I just don't trust it, so I'm just gonna go with my first impression, which was that he is a traitor 'cause he was friends with Mama Kelsey and he's a little bit quiet."
399
01:04:42.046 --> 01:04:53.036
And then he gets out and he's like, "Guys, like, I'm really sad that I went out this way. I'm not a, or I'm a faithful, I'm not a traitor, and I wish that you would've given me basically more, more benefit of the doubt."
400
01:04:53.066 --> 01:04:58.606
And then he goes home, and it's, that, it was... I was sad when he went home. I wanted to watch him play more. I know.
401
01:04:58.616 --> 01:05:05.416
And I actually, without even remembering, I think that's like a pretty good example of the confirmation bias. Totally. Yeah, justice for Ron.
402
01:05:05.496 --> 01:05:17.556
Okay, uh, let's end with something fun, which is who would you wanna see on the next season of The Traitors? I have some fun ones here, but- I saw your list. I don't have any ones. I, rip it, let's hear it.
403
01:05:17.856 --> 01:05:28.635
Okay, okay, maybe some will come to you as we're going through this. Okay, I have Janae from Love Island. I think if she, from Love Island season six. Oh my God, you love that, you love season six so much.
404
01:05:28.655 --> 01:05:40.336
[laughs] I just love season six. [laughs] No, she would also, I would love her as The Bachelorette as well. Ooh. I think she'd be good on The Traitors, too. Do you know who Manic Stalter is from Hacks?
405
01:05:40.356 --> 01:05:52.296
Do you watch Hacks? I've watched the first few seasons. Is she the older or the young one? No. She's the assistant to their manager. Oh, maybe I haven't seen Hacks. It's the comedian one, right?
406
01:05:52.696 --> 01:06:03.066
Yeah, and they have a manager who's, I forget his name, and then she's his assistant, and she's really funny. [laughs] I'm not gonna lie, I watched it. Again, my memory is awful. I watched a few- It's fine...
407
01:06:03.076 --> 01:06:11.336
I think I watched it last summer. It's fine. I don't remember, but- You should follow her on social media. She's like a comedian. She's really funny. You would like her. She does like a lot of very campy...
408
01:06:11.716 --> 01:06:20.906
Like, her thing is she'll, like, dress up as, like, a pop star a- and- I just followed her. I'm in. Love. She, yeah, yeah, she satirizes, uh, pop stars a lot. Okay, okay.
409
01:06:20.906 --> 01:06:33.446
And the guy who plays the manager in Hacks, like they showed up to some awards show wearing like the same outfit that Kylie and Timothée Chalamet had worn to an awards show like the week before. Oh, oh.
410
01:06:33.776 --> 01:06:43.636
I saw this interview. I saw her on this interview. Okay, I remember watching it and being like, "Is this satire? I don't know who this is. I'm not totally involved." I thought maybe she was just, like,
411
01:06:44.716 --> 01:06:54.556
doing, doing her own fashion thing. That's actually so funny. Okay. I think she would be really fun. Just from scrolling her social media, I think she'd be hilarious. [laughs] And then I have Orna from Couples Therapy.
412
01:06:54.836 --> 01:07:08.296
My girl Orna. Yes. Let's go Orna. Oh my God, I love her. She would be so, like- Also love that show... as a therapist, like, she would be good. But also- She'd probably be first gone. Yeah, people would get rid of...
413
01:07:08.396 --> 01:07:16.984
She's way too smart. It's true. Um- Yeah, yeah If you're the traitor, though Yeah, but she, people would just get rid of her immediately. Like, people would banish her too.
414
01:07:17.104 --> 01:07:26.384
I know, but maybe she, maybe she could pull it together- That's true, she does have that, like-... convince them out of it... I think she's good at getting people to trust her, so. People would be like, "Why is it you?"
415
01:07:26.444 --> 01:07:34.824
She'd be like, "I don't know, what do you think? Tell me why." [laughs] That would ruin her therapy career, for sure- [laughs]... if she was ever a traitor, but I'd love to see it. That's true. That's true.
416
01:07:35.124 --> 01:07:49.064
From the, uh, drag queen, uh, realm, I think Trixie Mattel and Katya- [laughs]... that would be fun. Just chaos. They would be chaos. [laughs] I love both of them, but simply there would be no TV time for anyone else.
417
01:07:49.424 --> 01:08:01.814
[laughs] I love them, but they're, like, if Monét X Change is a 10 out of 10, they're like a 30,000. [laughs] That's true. They're just... Especially together, 'cause they have- That's true...
418
01:08:01.814 --> 01:08:11.524
their own podcast and they're like besties. They would just be like, oh my God. Yeah, you're right. They're just their own show. Y- yeah. Oh, man. You're right. That would be- Great picks. [laughs] Great picks.
419
01:08:11.964 --> 01:08:21.664
For The Bachelorette, Rachel Lindsay, I'd like to see her- Yeah... on there. Yeah. Yeah She's also, like, used to be a lawyer, is smart. Um, Paige DeWhittell- Oh, okay, okay... from Summer House.
420
01:08:21.724 --> 01:08:27.554
She's on the, she has the Giggly Squad- Haven't seen, haven't seen Summer House yet... podcast. Do you know the Giggly Squad? Mm-mm. Oh, okay. Mm-mm.
421
01:08:27.624 --> 01:08:36.574
She just, like, has good takes and can read people, and is just, like, an entertaining reality person. Whitney Levitt, of course. Fair, fair. [laughs] I know- She's on my list, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
422
01:08:36.664 --> 01:08:46.594
She's, like, a good villain. And then, [laughs] oh, this is recent from the new season of Real Housewives of Rhode Island, but Liz and Alicia are both, like, the stars there.
423
01:08:46.684 --> 01:08:57.934
Like, they all have these, like, New England accents, and Liz is, like, the, the weed queen because her and her husband own, like- Mm-hmm... a weed dispensary business or whatever. [laughs] Oh.
424
01:08:57.934 --> 01:09:11.524
[laughs] And Alicia, Alicia's just a chaotic, like, d- not a lot going on, but says hilarious stuff all the time. [laughs] She would be really fun. That's so good. Yeah. That's good. That's a well-rounded list.
425
01:09:11.784 --> 01:09:18.004
This will be off the top of my head, 'cause I did not prep in advance for who I wanted to see on the next season, even though I was thinking of asking you the question.
426
01:09:18.024 --> 01:09:27.003
But yeah, Whitney for sure, from Secret Life of the Mormon Wife. I think she would be good. I actually also would love to see Rizzo from this current season of Survivor. [laughs] You're a Rizzo convert.
427
01:09:27.204 --> 01:09:34.784
[laughs] Convert is right, because Season 49, I was like, [laughs] "Oh my God, I actually can't." But see, it's all the editing.
428
01:09:34.964 --> 01:09:42.033
I think he's been this smart strategic the entire time, and his Season 49 edit appealed to the, that, like, young crowd. And then you- Yeah...
429
01:09:42.154 --> 01:09:49.614
put him with Season 50 of all these, like, very smart players who are all a little bit older. There's not a lot of people in their 20s playing. There's a lot more, like, seasoned people who- Yeah...
430
01:09:49.624 --> 01:09:59.924
played in their 20s and are now in their 30s and 40s, and he just is so good. Yeah. He's just really good at switching. I, big fan. Never thought I'd say that, like, you asked me six months ago, but yeah.
431
01:09:59.984 --> 01:10:05.214
He, he's- Would love to see Rizzo play. What else am I watching? I feel like maybe a Love is Blind star could be interesting.
432
01:10:05.224 --> 01:10:11.384
Trying to think if there's anyone I've actually liked recently- There's no stars on Love is Blind... that I'd want to watch though. Like, that's part of the problem. There's not.
433
01:10:12.284 --> 01:10:22.804
I kinda like that though, because they're, like, normal human. Otherwise, like, Deepti and Natalie. Deepti and Natalie, they have a- Deepti and Natalie. Yeah. Yeah, they have a podcast.
434
01:10:23.204 --> 01:10:35.334
Maybe one of them could go on as, like, a loved one. Trying to think. There's, like, a bunch. I would love to see Val from Dancing With the Stars on it. His brother Max was on Season 2, I think. Okay, yeah.
435
01:10:35.364 --> 01:10:45.624
And got- I think Season 2... again, a boring edit. He left really quick, which was controversial, 'cause he is such a fiery personality. Like, so spicy, so controversial.
436
01:10:45.644 --> 01:10:57.004
Would fight with the judges all the time [laughs] on the show. Oh, really? [laughs] Yeah. And he, we didn't see that and he left really quick. So yeah, but his brother is, like, a more tamed version.
437
01:10:57.324 --> 01:11:07.014
I'd love to see him on there. He would have a similar effect. He's very calming. He could be good. But he, but I don't think he's, like, entertaining. He's not dramatic. Trying to think.
438
01:11:08.064 --> 01:11:19.504
What about, like, a curveball, like, other celebrity or, like, a personality that you think would be good on it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like- Oh, let's throw a Jonas Brother on there. That could be fun. Hell, yeah.
439
01:11:19.524 --> 01:11:27.514
Hell, yeah. Which one? Any of them? I mean, realistically they'd probably get Frankie on there, who's, like, the bonus Jonas. [laughs] That is a character though, dude. Mm-hmm.
440
01:11:27.524 --> 01:11:39.284
Like, someone who's, like, related to someone famous. It's like Donna Kelce. Dylan Efron. Yeah, Dylan Efron. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] You know what? Actually, I would love to see, I would love to see a PWHL player.
441
01:11:39.324 --> 01:11:51.123
I'd love to see a female athlete on there. There, I don't think athlete, athletes play, but I would love to see either a retired athlete or a retired WNBA player. That could be fun.
442
01:11:51.144 --> 01:12:03.624
Don't have anyone specific in mind, but that could be an interesting take. Um, oh, or Delona, Alana. She could be fun. Alana Maher. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The rugby player. Okay, I'm gonna give you two more.
443
01:12:04.204 --> 01:12:14.423
Oh, another random person, Tay Lautner, Taylor Lautner's wife. Oh. [laughs] I think she could be interesting. She's also sidebar famous. They host a podcast together. Yeah, yeah.
444
01:12:14.444 --> 01:12:23.354
I don't follow her, but- They have the same name. They're not gonna name their baby Taylor too, are they? [laughs] Taylor 3. Just kidding. Yeah. [laughs] T3. I, I'm not sure. Hope not.
445
01:12:23.784 --> 01:12:30.804
But also for the bit, can they commit to the bit? I know. They might as well. They've gone this far. Yeah. Okay, one more person. One more person.
446
01:12:31.024 --> 01:12:43.144
Oh, let's throw, I know they don't do actor actors, but let's throw Heated Rivalry stars. We'll do Hudson and Connor. We'll throw them in there just for- Okay... chaos. Yeah. Okay. They could be fun. All Star season.
447
01:12:43.444 --> 01:12:54.394
Okay, I just wanted to end with this, this note that I was thinking of earlier of- Let's do it... why I like reality TV in general, and I think it's, it's the Elle Woods effect from Legally Blonde. Okay. Okay, explain.
448
01:12:54.404 --> 01:13:07.984
Which it's like, what I like about it, I like that I can embrace feminine coded or, like, girly things. Be like, "I'm just a girl." But also- [laughs]... be able to analyze it from, like, a more critical standpoint.
449
01:13:08.264 --> 01:13:13.024
I can still be smart and, like, like this stuff, and I don't have to fit into, like- Ooh... either box.
450
01:13:13.124 --> 01:13:22.964
And you know, all the smartest women I know love reality TV, and I think that's, like you're saying too, like, the social part of it, like, outside of it. It's like you just- Yeah...
451
01:13:22.974 --> 01:13:36.984
get to be with the girls and chat about-... these silly things, but you can do it in a smart way. Right. And yeah, so I'm calling it Dale Woods Effect. I love that. Trademark it, benchmark it. [laughs] Put it- tattoo it.
452
01:13:37.404 --> 01:13:46.924
I think, yeah, I love that. I resonate with that completely. Yeah, I love it. I don't know if you can tell, but I love to talk. [laughs] I love to talk about reality TV.
453
01:13:47.364 --> 01:14:14.064
So yeah, I do think there's a whole underworld of watching reality TV t- these days, which I know I was born at the right time because I love watching a show or watching a series or investing in some sort of content and then going to my social media and hearing everybody else's hot takes, opinions, deeper conversation- Uh-huh...
454
01:14:14.234 --> 01:14:21.764
of what I just watched. I'm like, I can critical think, and there are, like, definitely things that if I spent more time pinpointing, I'd be able to flush out.
455
01:14:21.804 --> 01:14:27.354
But I love just getting [laughs] into the rabbit hole of, wow, this person accurately summed up exactly how I'm feeling watching this.
456
01:14:27.454 --> 01:14:37.444
And they are able to point to things that I didn't catch, and I just understand what I just watched even better. And it is this analyzing logistical perspective. I do...
457
01:14:38.264 --> 01:14:44.684
One of my new favorite things is watching TV and then going to TikTok and- Mm-hmm... watching more content about what I just watched. Mm-hmm.
458
01:14:44.704 --> 01:14:52.704
Loki, not reality TV, but have you seen the drama yet with Brad Pitt and Jude Law? No. I, yeah. No, it's on my list for sure. Yeah.
459
01:14:52.744 --> 01:15:00.884
Jenna and I watched it as our first movie out, like one of the first times we got a babysitter, and it was so good.
460
01:15:01.304 --> 01:15:12.764
But then the TikTok rabbit hole of debriefing stuff I didn't catch and, oh, it, it was almost as good as the movie. [laughs] Just having these connected webs of just, like, all these different takes.
461
01:15:12.794 --> 01:15:19.594
And the other part I like, too, is you can take it or you can leave it. You don't have to resonate with everything everybody's saying. Yeah.
462
01:15:19.604 --> 01:15:30.844
But it just gives you more information to collect and the dialogue just keeps continuing. And I think, yeah, part of what you're saying of the just a girl is enjoying it, and then also the gossip sesh about it.
463
01:15:31.064 --> 01:15:34.484
I, I do- Totally... what's the tea of what we just watched? Like, how's everyone feeling?
464
01:15:34.583 --> 01:15:48.664
Let's get emotional and talk shit about the people that we just watched on TV who we have no invested interest in but are very invested in. [laughs] Yeah. But, but I think this is totally normal and, like, we're...
465
01:15:48.974 --> 01:16:01.914
This is, like, the girl in quotes version of that where, you know, I talk about, I don't think I've said it on this show yet, but, like, how reality TV is a sport. It's sports for women and, and so it- Yeah...
466
01:16:01.944 --> 01:16:14.104
it's automatically kind of, like, just, like, not taken as seriously because it's for women and, and, and women just aren't taken as seriously. But, like, how, there's- Yeah... ESPN, like, one through fucking 75.
467
01:16:14.653 --> 01:16:25.324
[laughs] And it's 24/7 channels of, like, not just watching the games but, like, analysis of it and, like, conversations about it- This is true... and the trades and the- The highlights...
468
01:16:25.394 --> 01:16:36.584
but yeah, there's so much about those games a- and, like, fantasy leagues and stuff that- Yeah... that go on outside of the actual game, and I think that's, like, very similar to what you're speaking to, right?
469
01:16:36.644 --> 01:16:43.444
And, and people- Yeah... who are really into that, like, like that's where they find community and camaraderie and all that stuff, so it's the same thing. Oh my gosh.
470
01:16:44.044 --> 01:16:48.784
I have always hear- heard you say reality TV is a sport, and I've always been like [laughs]
471
01:16:49.404 --> 01:16:59.704
but hearing you actually say it in that way where, no, Sportsnet, ES- there's, it's a multi-billion dollar industry of just talking about the sport game that- Yeah... already happened. Yeah.
472
01:16:59.744 --> 01:17:10.484
And talking about the sports game that will happen. Wow, you just blew my mind because yeah, I mean, as women, not taken seriously, and a woman's interest not taken seriously and everything not taken seriously.
473
01:17:10.564 --> 01:17:22.873
But it should be because I don't wanna talk about sports and I wanna talk about my reality TV. I'm sure, like, okay. Sports, I, I get it. They have, like, their value. I enjoy sports too, but ultimately- Yeah...
474
01:17:22.904 --> 01:17:32.604
they're stupid. Like, it's stupid. [laughs] And guess what? Same with reality TV, okay? [laughs] Like at least we're trying to understand society.
475
01:17:32.824 --> 01:17:42.184
[laughs] Apply all these different theories to what we're watching, you know? This is true. This is true. That's so funny. I don't think sports are stupid, but I think it's stupid that it's a trillion dollar industry.
476
01:17:42.244 --> 01:17:53.674
It's stupid. I think that is stupid. Yeah. And yeah, and I'm gonna be in both worlds. I'm gonna be watching my women's sport and my women's TV, my reality TV, my little sip, sip. Love the Elle Woods Effect. Yes.
477
01:17:53.674 --> 01:18:04.384
I love that. Should we get- Yeah, because just like Elle Woods, you will be put in a box and you can have it all. [laughs] I love that. Um. We should get Elle Woods tattooed. I'm just throwing that out there. I'm in.
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[whimsical music] That's It's Called Reality. The discourse for people who give a shit. Find us @itscalledreality on Instagram and TikTok and go to itscalledreality.tv to get all of our episodes.
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Email us at question@importantnotimportant.com with any questions, hot takes, memes, shows you'd like us to cover, whatever. We read them all.
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It's Called Reality is co-hosted by Willow Beck and Brianna Brown, edited by me, Willow, and produced by Important Not Important. Music is by Tim Blaine, and our artwork is by Kristen Cox.
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