Predator Realizes He's Going To Prison For Life - The Mennonite Murder by Mark Gooch

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When a young Mennonite woman was found dead in Arizona.
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He has it, he is it, Let's go. The police
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were desperate to discover why someone would take her several
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hours away from her home in New Mexico, only to
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shoot her dead and dump her body.
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Tear's office.
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Here of the car, Get on the car, step out now.
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Little did they know that as they worked with the
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Mennonite community to solve this terrible crime, authorities would end
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up discovering a decade's worth of unsolved crimes, all leading
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back to one depraved man.
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Get your hands up, Step away from the car.
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On February twenty second, twenty twenty, Cynthia Schultz was pleasantly
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spending her morning collecting firewood for her camp at the
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Sunset Crater National Park, around twenty miles from Flagstaff, Arizona.
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While out, Cynthia spotted a woman lying face down in
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the dirt. Thinking something might be wrong, she called out
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to the woman. However, when she didn't respond, Cynthia had
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a horrifying revelation the woman was dead. Cynthia alerted the authorities,
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and soon the area was swarmed with police trying to
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get to the bottom of this tragedy, didn't move or nothing.
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East Tale looked checked her and okay rigid as a
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ring of Mortis shoes stiff.
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It was immediately clear to the detectives that this case
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was a homicide, as the victim had a gunshot wound
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to the head and her hands were bound together with
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a duct tape. As they inspected the body closer, they
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noticed that the victim was wearing very modest and traditional clothes,
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which made them suspect she might be a Mennonite. Mennonites
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are a Christian denomination that practice a conservative lifestyle, dedicating
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themselves to their religion and only using technology that's strictly necessary,
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such as basic phones. Through forensic comparisons, the police were
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able to identify the mysterious victim as twenty seven year
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old Sasha Kraus, a Mennonite woman who had gone missing
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from New Mexico on January eighteenth, over a month before
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she was discovered. While police may have finally been able
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to give their victim a name, it was now time
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to uncover her horrific story and find out the truth
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about how she ended up murdered in a national park
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nearly three hundred miles from her home. Through interviews and investigation,
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the police were able to determine that Sasha was a
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Sunday school teacher who had worked and lived on the
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lamp in a light compound a Mennonite community in Farmington,
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New Mexico. On the night of her disappearance, Sasha was
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making a quick late night stop by the Sunday school
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to finish an errand when she failed to come home
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that night, Sasha's roommates alerted the community and the police
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were soon involved. Unfortunately, the case had hit a dead
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end fairly soon after beginning, and it seemed like Sasha
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had simply vanished into thin air. However, not only did
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authorities now have Sasha's body, they were also able to
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recover her phone, a key piece of evidence that could
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likely point them in the direction of their killer. Through
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phone records, the police were able to deduce that Sasha
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hadn't just vanished, she'd been kidnapped. As her kidnapper drove
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her to Arizona, Sasha's phone could be seen pinging off
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of select phone towers before it died. Throughout her entire
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trip to Arizona, there was only one other device pinging
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off of those same towers and it belonged to a
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man named Mark Gooch. Mark Gooch was an airman working
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at Louke Air Force Base in Arizona, and at first glance,
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it appeared he had nothing in common with Sasha outside
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of his cell phone records. Nevertheless, Lauren Nagel, the lead
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detective on the case, traveled to Luke Air Force Base
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and sat down with Mark for questioning. Detective Nagel introduces
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herself as Detective Jones, as she got married at some
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point between this interview you and her appearance in court.
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Hi, thank you for your patience.
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Love to work out that way. As the obviously all.
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Right, so undetected General of the Sheriff's Office, I'm sure.
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You're wondering what I want to chat to you about?
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For some about Filly, in which check out through some
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procedural stuff.
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First.
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The interview takes place in an interrogation room on Luke
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Air Force Base and is an ideal set up according
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to the read technique, a popular method of interrogation. There's
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no barrier between Detective Nagel and Mark, allowing her to
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observe all of his movements and nonverbal communication. The walls
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appear to be bare, which is intentional to minimize distractions.
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It's also helpful that there's only one detective present, which
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can make the interview feel less threatening. Additionally, Marcus seated
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near the door, which helps send the message that he's
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able to leave at any time. This may make him
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less defensive and more likely to talk. It can also
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help prevent any false imprisonment claims. Later, Detective Nagel and
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Mark speak briefly about his responsibilities as a mechanic in
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the Air Force, before the detective asks about Mark's life
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back home.
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So what did you do before Air Force?
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Son?
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I've worked with a decent camp shop for about a
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year and deconstruction as well.
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He grew up on for Dare Farm. Oh yeah, that's
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pretty cool. Do have siblings? Yes, yam? Six? Oh wow?
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Really okay, big family? Tell me about them, like how
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many brothers and sisters? Have three brothers and three sisters? Okay,
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got it? And where are they at now? All over
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the coach all over? Are you the youngest, yes, ma'am? Okay,
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who would you say you're closest with?
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We got separated pretty good after everybody started moving out,
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so you're.
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Not close with any of them.
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Though I talk with them on the phone here and there,
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but I'm probably closest.
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Maybe my brother Mack Wisconsin. Oh, gotcha? Which brother's that?
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It's Sam? Sam.
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Mark comes across as a polite, well mannered air man,
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but as we'll see over the course of the interview,
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this is just a facade.
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So what did you do on your time off? Playing?
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My computer? Sometimes? Play some games? You go, I get
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as much as possible work on my car and bike.
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A love to try to say, try to say, actually cool.
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Do you like go to church or anything like that?
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I don't have the church close in Oh that's opposed
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to gotcha? Is that something that you did before it closed?
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Yes? Okay, yes, no attend church? I did?
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Okay, if you don't make me asking about that. What
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kind of religion did you grow up in?
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I grew up in a Christian Christian I guess the
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religious religion, I guess is how you call it Christianity
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is how.
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Are okay any like specific denomination of Christianity?
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Mainly they're Gonnonites, are Amish, I'm not sure.
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Not really tell me about that. But masal to drive
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a dark covered vehicles?
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Uh?
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These flip phones when you have internet stuff like that.
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So it was pretty It was pretty shelter, pretty sheltered. Difficult.
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I got it With this admission. The police now have
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another unexpected link between Mark and Sasha. They're both Mennonites.
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When the detective brings up the topic of religion, Mark
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starts to fumble with his words, indicating that the topic
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of religion may be something Mark doesn't want to talk
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about in that.
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Last six months. Have you traveled out of stay anywhere?
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Yes? Man?
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When I came down here, I drove my car throw
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Wisconsin down here.
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Oh okay, so you drove from Wisconsin to Phoenix.
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Career anywhere else? Uh?
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Pretty much, so, sayers, I try to try to do
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as much hiking as possible.
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Mark doesn't know it yet, but he's just been caught
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in his first lie, the first of many. Using words
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like pretty much, mostly and similar sentiments are qualifiers and
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often throw up a red flag to detectives. These words
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usually indicate half truths or that there's something the individual
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may not wish to disclose. In this case, Mark saying
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that he pretty much stays in Arizona isn't true at all,
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and he's hiding something very big. He also uses filler
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sounds such as uh to delay answering so he has
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time to think about his response.
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You're probably again, you're probably wondering.
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You know why I'm here. So I'm a detective. I'm
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a Coconino Hounty Sheriff's.
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Office, Okay, and I am working a home set investigation. Okay.
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There was a girl, nam Slasha Kraus, that was killed.
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Did you hear about that case?
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Says yes, ma'am. Tell me what you know about the case.
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Basically the news report she was from Mexico, right, and
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she left home, left home on the evening and they
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found her in Arizona, like flag Staff, correct, right?
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All right, So that's the case that I'm working. Any
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idea now why I want to talk to you at all?
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Probably because I was probably traving up in mex scarier problem. Yeah,
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that's exactly it.
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As the detective reveals why she's here interviewing them, Mark
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begins to show more and more signs that he may
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be hiding something. When asked what he knows about Sasha
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Kraus's murder, Mark vaguely says that they found her. This
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is a soft way to describe something as violent as
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a homicide and they.
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Found her in Arizona.
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When suspects shy away from using realistic words such as
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murdered or killed, this can be a red flag for
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possible deception as they're minimizing the crime. Additionally, Mark uses
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the qualifier probably three times in eight seconds.
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Probably because I was probably traving up in max scarier problem.
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So we probably things called license plate readers, and your
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vehicle hit a license plate reader in that area, So
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tell me about that you were traveling then you I'm
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a little confused because at first she said you hadn't trouble,
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but now did you go to New Mexico? Your vehicle
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was picked up on that license plate reader in the
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general area on the same day actually that she went missing.
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And so what I'm doing at this point is.
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I got to talk to everybody, as you.
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Can imagine, that's my job, anybody who's in the area,
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anybody who could have seen something.
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Despite the fact that Mark appears to be intentionally lying,
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Detective Nagel does a great job of calling him out
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for it while also remaining non judgmental. She does this
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in order to keep Mark from feeling threatened and ending
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the interview, while also not letting him get comfortable in
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any of the lies he tells. The more someone repeats
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a lie, the more confident they will become. She also
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keeps him calm by not telling him the whole truth
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about why she's there. Although she's telling Mark that she's
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just interviewing everyone who got picked up on a certain
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license play reader, we know that Mark is actually her
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number one suspect and that he was found through phone records.
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This is just one example of the ways detectives can
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lie during interviews in order to get a suspect to
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tell them the truth.
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So why were you in New Mexico that day?
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I was planning on going saws Chachamni churches.
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I had traveled up to Flagsaff.
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Mark takes a big pause after he says he traveled,
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followed by his foot twitching, and then he says to flagstaff.
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I traveled up to Flagsaff.
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This is something called a cadence switch, which is essentially
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a disruption in the flow and inflection of speech in
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an interrogation. This can be seen as an indication of
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something being left out of a story, as the speaker
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paused and changed their speech pattern.
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Also open that skewers are still and yeah, they were
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closed due to coronavirus starting up.
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And so I figured I'd go check out on the
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night church up in that area. So I know some
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people from Wisconsin that used to live there, and.
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I want to go just attend his, not because I
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lived in this and that social life.
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Yeah, I was to have in my night churches.
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Is there any reason why you didn't tell me when
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I asked you if you've traveled, you didn't mention that
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to me. Is there a reason that you didn't.
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No, I'm sorry. My memories just stad us the entire day.
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I'm sorry to fail invention that. Okay, it's not trying
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to hide it withhold information. Okay. Thanks.
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Once again, Mark is caught in a lie while explaining
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why he was in New Mexico. He mentions that he
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was wanting to go skiing. However, the ski resort he
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drove to, the Arizona Snowbowl Ski Resort and flag Staff,
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was closed due to COVID nineteen restrictions in actuality. The
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snow Bowl didn't close for COVID until March, well after
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Mark would have been there on January eighteenth. As he
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says this, he haf shrugs with his right shoulder. It's
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barely perceptible, but lines up when he says I don't know. Internally,
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he does know and is just making excuses, but he's
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not confident in his memory excuse. Mark is also sitting
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with his leg crossed in a way that creates a
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barrier between himself and the detective. He switched to this
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guarded position after he was asked about traveling. When questioned
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about why he didn't mention this trip earlier, Mark's military
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00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:30.600
formality helps him appear more truthful than he's actually being.
248
00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.279
He refers to Detective Nagel as ma'am and immediately apologizes
249
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.159
for not mentioning the trip because he was tired. Unfortunately,
250
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.720
for Mark, no matter how polite he is, this omission
251
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.080
is definitely a sign that he has a reason to
252
00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.440
keep this trip a secret, and the detective has certainly
253
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:49.440
picked up on that.
254
00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:51.320
Do you remember that day then.
255
00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:56.679
When he went to New Mexico?
256
00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.960
So yeah, yeah, I think I remember.
257
00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:02.679
So what time you about did you leave here at
258
00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:03.600
Luke Air Force Face?
259
00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:09.360
I probably left fairly early in the morning, And then
260
00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:11.240
what time do you do sales in the area?
261
00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:13.240
I have to go.
262
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.320
I've got like the charts, the paper, what time, well
263
00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:18.919
books again, let's go through the day.
264
00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.120
So when you says fairly early, what does that mean
265
00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.519
to you? I had probably about seven okay seven, that's
266
00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.360
when I left the head up there, saw the flag
267
00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.360
staff for a while. It's got some uh, just so
268
00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:31.399
I've got some fuel.
269
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:34.679
I believe this is one of the last fully truthful
270
00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.759
statements Mark says while recounting his trip to New Mexico.
271
00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.080
While he may think he's being sneaky with his lies,
272
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.000
Detective Nagel knows a lot more than she's letting on
273
00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.799
and is ready to catch every lie Mark throws her way.
274
00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:48.480
Did you go.
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00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.120
Anywhere else whiter in the flag staff?
276
00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.000
Nope, No, not Royo.
277
00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:00.440
Yeah, straight driving, had a really pretty SnowCat now there.
278
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.480
Yeah, so you stopped at the flag stap you got gas,
279
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:06.960
and then you think that you drove directly to the
280
00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:08.840
church in Farmington.
281
00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.840
I stopped in Farmington to get some fuel.
282
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.840
Watch how the detective suddenly starts kicking her foot. Since
283
00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.519
this discussion is about the scene of the crime, she
284
00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:22.759
likely feels a lot of pressure with these questions, trying
285
00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.600
to make sure she gets his story and also has
286
00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:28.639
what she needs to confront him later with all of
287
00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:32.480
his deceptive behavior. Already, she's likely fairly certain that he
288
00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:35.440
is the person she's looking for, and these are really
289
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:37.799
the high stakes questions about two.
290
00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.960
O'clog avern and I had swung by the church's de
291
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.639
checutive sign and see what kind of services was, and
292
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:49.679
they were I think it was just Sunday and Sunday.
293
00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:53.879
At this point in the investigation, Detective Nagel has spent
294
00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.879
a lot of time at Sasha's church looking for any
295
00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:00.399
sign of what happened to her on January eighteenth. In
296
00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.720
her entire time there, the detective has never seen any
297
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.039
sign even somewhat similar to the one Marcus claiming to
298
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:07.639
have checked.
299
00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.879
Did you like talk to anybody while you were there? No?
300
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:13.120
No, there was no one at the church and I
301
00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:14.399
didn't want to bother anybody.
302
00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:16.799
Did you like it? I don't know.
303
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.000
Is it a church that like like what you grew
304
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:20.960
up in or different?
305
00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.799
It was? It looked fairly similar, but it's just it's
306
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:28.879
not really the same. So I'll just disappointed. With whole
307
00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:30.039
long drive.
308
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.919
And everything, I didn't really see it as working.
309
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.480
Out long term. Make it there, Yeah, that is a
310
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.240
long drive. It'd be way too far to drive every weekend.
311
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.440
So I so I got talking to my friends.
312
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.759
You want to go hiking on Sunday and I really
313
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:45.960
wanted to make it for that.
314
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.120
I'm working in the show. And who's that friend? His
315
00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:50.919
name's Kathley.
316
00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:53.679
Mark claims that he made plans with Ketfley to go
317
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:57.600
hiking the following day. However, according to Ketflee himself, the
318
00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.720
two actually went to a swap meat so known as
319
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:01.519
a flea market.
320
00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:04.599
From what I'm understanding, it doesn't sound were there very long?
321
00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.039
And then where did you go after that?
322
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:13.599
Can I remember I was going to go to look
323
00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:16.599
for a hike or was I did a head straight back?
324
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.799
I think I started once he called me about the
325
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.119
hike on Sunday, I think I.
326
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:23.039
Started heading back.
327
00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.559
He called you while you were over there, okay.
328
00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.880
According to Mark, Ketflee called him to discuss plans. However,
329
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.920
the phone records disagree with Mark. Mark and Keflee only
330
00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.000
texted that day, and in fact, the only person that
331
00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:41.880
Mark spoke to on the phone was his brother Sam.
332
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.799
Not only did Mark and Sam call, but they actually
333
00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.799
called each other six times, for a total of nearly
334
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.440
two and a half hours, which is longer than the
335
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.480
two had talked on the phone for the last six
336
00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:53.480
months combined.
337
00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.599
On the way back home, did you stop anywhere?
338
00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:01.880
Motivated Phoeix full time? How up your chat? Okay?
339
00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.720
So, and I understand correctly you don't remember stopping anywhere.
340
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.079
Moments that Phari said, okay, can you remember what time
341
00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:10.480
you got.
342
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.240
Back here at home? It was certainly like it is,
343
00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:24.000
probably probably eight in nine o'clock long. Yeah.
344
00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.359
Mark makes a lot of lip and mouth movements here,
345
00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.079
known as micro expressions. One of the biggest indicators of
346
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.720
deception and hiding something is a movement called disappearing lips,
347
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:38.079
which Mark demonstrates once again. Mark's account of the trip
348
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.279
contradicts his phone records. Well, he might say that he
349
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.680
went straight home from New Mexico, the records actually show
350
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.240
him stopping in Sunset Crater National Park for several hours.
351
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.039
With Mark having officially told his story about where he
352
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.279
was on the day of Sasha's murder, Detective Nagel is
353
00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:00.440
noticing more and more red flags. Mark consistently lies, has tates,
354
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.000
and supposedly struggles to recall information when he has asked
355
00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.200
about stops he made, times and what he was doing
356
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.480
at specific points throughout his trip. When a suspect has
357
00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.519
a memory of extremes, meaning their memory is either too
358
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.519
good or too bad, this is seen as a red
359
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:20.279
flag to detectives. Just over two months of past since
360
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.119
January eighteenth, so it doesn't make sense that Marcus struggling
361
00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:28.200
so much to recall basic information about his trip, given
362
00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.559
that this trip was pretty out of the ordinary for him.
363
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.240
The trip should actually stick out in his mind even more.
364
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.240
What do you think should happen to the person that
365
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:37.119
did that to Sasha?
366
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:47.519
As far as like, what do you get into if
367
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.920
we caught the person who killed her?
368
00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.400
What should happen to them?
369
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:53.200
Well, he should probably.
370
00:19:54.119 --> 00:20:00.400
Probably the law news or maybe not A community hasn't.
371
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:01.279
There.
372
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.960
In the read technique, this line of questioning is known
373
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.839
as the punishment question, and it can be a good
374
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:12.200
indicator of deception. Individuals who give vague answers are more
375
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.720
likely to be deceptive than those who answer with strong,
376
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:20.400
definitive punishments. Mark pauses for an incredibly long time after
377
00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.920
being asked what he thinks should happen to Sasha's killer,
378
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.240
and he eventually settles on I don't know. This is
379
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.079
the exact type of vague answer that sets off alarm
380
00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.000
bells for detectives when it comes to the punishment question.
381
00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.000
After a few more questions, Detective Nagel tells Mark that
382
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.279
she's going to step out for just a few minutes
383
00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:43.319
to review her notes. After letting Mark ste for ten minutes,
384
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.480
Detective Nakeel comes back in and gets ready to really
385
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:50.039
take Mark's story apart and figure out what exactly it
386
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.440
is that he's lying about on the way back.
387
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.079
What time did you come back through the gate? It star.
388
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:04.519
Possibly eight or not? Part probably later that I'm not sure, so.
389
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.960
If wasn't a reasonable time frame, So like you're saying
390
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:11.359
around in nine, like what's the latest you think he
391
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:12.319
possibly came.
392
00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:16.319
Through that gate? Oh? Probably could have been water Zoo
393
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.920
air nine and water two is probably probably the most
394
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.960
time frame that I can think of. Kind of was
395
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:25.880
dark when I came.
396
00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.640
To It's kind of a big timeframe there, though, eight
397
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:30.960
pm to two am is pretty different.
398
00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.680
I understand. Okay, so you want to stick with that? Yes?
399
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.200
Now, the detective Nakeol is informed Mark his story doesn't
400
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:41.119
add up. It's likely that he's going to respond with
401
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.119
even less specifics than he was before, hence his six
402
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.759
hour time span. If Mark is adamant that he got
403
00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.279
home at eight pm, but then video footage shows otherwise,
404
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.640
it will reflect badly on his credibility. On the other hand,
405
00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:58.640
if he admits that it was two am when he
406
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.519
got home, then there's a large chunk of time that's
407
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:06.000
completely unaccounted for between Mark leaving the church and arriving home.
408
00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:09.119
While Mark might be trying to avoid getting caught in
409
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:13.079
a lie by avoiding specifics in actuality, this just makes
410
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.039
him even more suspicious.
411
00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.200
So what if I told you that the time that
412
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.599
you came in the gate that morning was six point
413
00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:21.640
fifty three in the morning.
414
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.559
Well, I guess is that light?
415
00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:31.359
That's a long time, yes, ma'am. So how do you
416
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:32.720
explain that I.
417
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.759
Stopped and slept in the car and on the back
418
00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:35.920
mandchou staying away?
419
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:41.319
Try to stop and sleep multiple times? That's knit go
420
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:43.720
to sleep was called kanly driving back.
421
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:47.720
Okay, Now Mark has to scramble to fill in the
422
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.319
gaps that Detective Nagel is pointing out. Mark claimed he
423
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.799
left at seven in the morning on January eighteenth, and
424
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.079
according to the detective's records, he didn't get home until
425
00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:01.839
nearly that same time the following morning. Not only is
426
00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.880
this around ten hours after the original time Mark gay
427
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.960
for when he got home, but it's almost five hours
428
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:12.160
after the revised time he gave. It's also highly suspicious
429
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:14.759
that he has never mentioned this supposed nap he took
430
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.519
in his car on the way home, and it definitely
431
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.079
comes across that Mark is doing anything he can to
432
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:21.519
try and cover up his lies.
433
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.960
Have you gone to Flagstaff any more than that one time? No?
434
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:31.839
Non, except when I possibly Mark came down from Wisconsin, Dalup.
435
00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:35.839
I don't remember which route I took coming in Okay.
436
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.319
So after that this new Mexico trip, you have not
437
00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:42.039
gone back up to Flagstaff again? Is that right?
438
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.079
Mark? Saying not to my knowledge doesn't make sense here,
439
00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:49.759
because how could he travel somewhere without his knowledge? This
440
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.119
is a selective memory statement, but in this situation it
441
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.720
also just doesn't even fit with the statement, and he
442
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:58.119
would have been better off going with I'm not sure
443
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:01.759
or I don't think so, or some other selective memory statement.
444
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.240
He must be starting to really feel some anxiety about
445
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.000
this because his thought processes are less logical and his
446
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.599
word choices aren't great, so that.
447
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:13.400
I know that you went back up to flag Staff
448
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.079
a couple of days later, and I've got a couple
449
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:20.119
different ways to confirm that, like your gay checkouts and
450
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:24.319
evidence that you were up with flag Staff. So did
451
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:26.640
you go back to flag Staff for some reason a
452
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:27.519
couple days later?
453
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.920
Possibly went for a drive. Why don't we go?
454
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.240
I remember when asked about going to flag Staff again,
455
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.279
Mark hesitates for a long time before answering. Significant delays
456
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:46.599
can be a red flag for deception. Some questions require thought,
457
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.000
so it would make sense for someone to stop and
458
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.880
think before answering. However, it doesn't take this much thought
459
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.160
to remember if you recently went to a town two
460
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.599
hours away from where you live, Meaning that Mark's hesitation
461
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.039
just comes off suspicious. Clearly, Mark isn't going to be
462
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:06.440
truthful about what he was really up to on January eighteenth,
463
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.519
So Detective Nagel changes gears and starts asking Mark Moore
464
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:12.640
about his men and I connection to Sasha.
465
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:13.960
Earlier, when we.
466
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.960
Were talking, you mentioned how when you're not born into
467
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:20.559
Menanit church, we use that word outsider, like you're kind
468
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:22.640
of an outsider compared to like people who were born
469
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:24.279
in Sasha.
470
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:28.200
Was like that too. Did you know that her family was.
471
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:34.200
Not born into Mennonite church, So wondering if you're willing
472
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:34.880
to kind of tell me.
473
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:37.279
I noticed you seemed.
474
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:38.960
I just saw a little bit of an emotion in
475
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.240
you that when we talked about that. Is there something
476
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.480
that happened to you in the media church up says you, I.
477
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:48.640
Really moses the life and didn't really I didn't really
478
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:50.200
like and I was happy to be out of it.
479
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:52.759
My parents loves the church.
480
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.519
By stating not really, he's denying anything happened to him,
481
00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.559
but not strongly. By using a qualifying statement instead of
482
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.200
just saying no, it suggests that there is something, but
483
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:05.960
he doesn't want to talk about it.
484
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:08.799
Okay, smart, what I do for a living is talk
485
00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.599
to people, and I just feel like I can read people.
486
00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:13.000
I know.
487
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:13.559
I don't know you.
488
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:16.279
I'm not going to even pretend I do so, but
489
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.920
I just there's something there And is it just something
490
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:22.599
you don't want to talk about, something that happened that
491
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.359
made you leave? I guess lead the church?
492
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:30.000
No, man, I pretty much loved church with my parents
493
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:30.920
decided to leave.
494
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:35.559
Okay, Mark uses another qualifier, but what is more interesting
495
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:38.640
are his lip movements. It seems like his lip movements
496
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.759
are his fidgeting behaviors, but he's probably had some training
497
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.599
about not showing anxiety, both in the home he grew
498
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.039
up in as well as in the military, so he
499
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.559
doesn't have a lot of the bigger nonverbal cues that
500
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:53.160
we look for. Yet these lip movements, which continue to
501
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.720
return to the disappearing lips, make it clear that he's
502
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.160
withholding information. It's almost like he's trying to hold in
503
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.880
whatever it is he really wants to say. While Mark
504
00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.400
may be playing it cool, the detective knows he's hiding something.
505
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.480
Before this interview even began, Detective Nagel was able to
506
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.079
go through Mark's text messages and saw some concerning things
507
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:19.920
regarding his views on Mennonites. In a text conversation, Mark
508
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:22.720
and Sam are told by their brother, Jacob, a Virginia
509
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:25.920
State trooper, that he had just given too Mennonites a
510
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:29.920
speeding ticket. Mark and Sam are both overjoyed to hear this,
511
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.799
and Mark even says that he hopes that Jacob treated
512
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.920
the Mennonites like Sam makes a point of calling the
513
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.720
Mennonites cultists, giving some insight into how he and his
514
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.079
brothers feel about the religion. In another conversation between just
515
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.839
Mark and Sam, Mark tells Sam that his surveillance on
516
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.079
the Arizona Mennonites that morning was boring. The use of
517
00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:57.240
the word surveillance was incredibly alarming to authorities, include them
518
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.079
into the fact that he may have been planning some
519
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.839
kind of attack on the community for quite a while.
520
00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:02.759
We have a.
521
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:07.559
Detective talking to Sam right now, okay, in Wisconsin, Okay,
522
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.119
And so I want you to know that for this
523
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:16.640
main reason, Sam's telling us some stuff and you're talking
524
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:18.319
to me, and I want to just make sure you
525
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:20.119
know what what both of you guys are telling us
526
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:23.359
lines up. And what I what I know a little
527
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:28.839
bit about from what Sam said is sounds like something's
528
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.240
going on here as far as like maybe you have
529
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:34.079
hard feelings against the Menite Church or maybe like a
530
00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:35.240
grudge or something like that.
531
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.519
So I'm me gonna start. You're trying to you're talking
532
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:41.400
and Sam right now. Huh m hm. So it sounds
533
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:42.880
like I need to get a lot here because you're
534
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:44.119
trying to pend something with me.
535
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.960
Well, I read you her rights at the beginning of.
536
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.640
This, yes, ma'am, And I'd like to see a lot here.
537
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.759
Now you would like to speak at the lawyer? Yes, okay,
538
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:54.720
So I'm not going to ask you any more questions.
539
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.279
Then I am gonna have you sit here for a
540
00:28:57.279 --> 00:28:59.720
few minutes, and then I'm gonna kind of explain to
541
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:01.160
you what else is going on today?
542
00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:04.119
Okayo gur.
543
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.000
Detective Nagel is using a bit of the prisoner's dilemma technique,
544
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:13.640
pinning one suspect against the other. We see him do
545
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:17.559
a big anchor point movement immediately after, and his illustrators
546
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.359
don't line up with his words. As soon as the
547
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:25.279
detective leaves the room, Mark unburiers his legs. Detective Nagel's
548
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.119
comments clearly struck a nerve with Mark, and for the
549
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.920
first time we see him change his reaction and become stern.
550
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:35.920
He clearly doesn't like that his brother is also being interviewed.
551
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.599
Perhaps Mark has good reason to fear that Sam will
552
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.519
say too much to the cops, as while Sam refused
553
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:45.640
to answer the majority of questions during his brief interview,
554
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:49.799
he did say one thing that caught Detective's attention. Not
555
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:52.720
only did Sam claim that Mark had a grudge against Mennonites,
556
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:55.039
but when asked if he knew why the cops were
557
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:59.640
questioning him. Sam ominously replied no, but that he knew
558
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.240
his b and how he is, giving police even more
559
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.160
reason to be suspicious of Mark. With his interview concluded,
560
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.759
Mark was served several search warrants for his phone, apartment,
561
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.200
and car, all of which proved to be very enlightening
562
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:17.880
to the authorities. The first thing investigators noticed when looking
563
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:22.640
at Mark's car was how spotless it was. Upon further inspection,
564
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:25.519
they were able to recover a receipt that showed Mark
565
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:28.839
had gotten his car heavily detailed on February twenty third,
566
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.799
the day after it was announced to the public that
567
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:36.359
Saushu's body had been found. Additionally, the police also discovered
568
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.319
some black nitral gloves in the car, alongside some suspicious stains.
569
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:45.319
Now the detectives are finally able to scour Mark's phone,
570
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:50.880
more inconsistencies began to pop up. According to his deletion records,
571
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:54.039
Mark had deleted several files and documents from his Google
572
00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:58.240
account early in the morning of January nineteenth, after returning
573
00:30:58.279 --> 00:31:02.240
home from his New Mexico trips. He also deleted several
574
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.440
texts with Sam where he discussed getting his car detailed,
575
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:08.960
stating that he wanted the detailers to clean the interior
576
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:14.240
really well. With several concerning if somewhat circumstantial things found
577
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.319
in Mark's phone and car, they had enough to detain him. However,
578
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:21.720
police still didn't have enough evidence to actually connect Mark
579
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:25.920
to Sasha's killing, never mind justifying a rest and guarantee
580
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:29.480
a conviction. There was still the puzzling question of why.
581
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.440
As there was no clear motive why Mark would have
582
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:37.160
killed Sasha, investigators soon began interviewing and interrogating the people
583
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:39.759
closest to him in the hopes that they could shed
584
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:43.559
some light on the case. First, they started with Alex Golub,
585
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:47.559
Mark's good friend from basic training. For the most part,
586
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:51.880
Alex said that Mark seemed completely normal throughout their friendship. However,
587
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:55.160
there was one odd moment Alex mentioned that really stuck
588
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:56.160
out to detectives.
589
00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:59.480
Has Mark ever talked about killing people to.
590
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:00.759
You, No, ma'am.
591
00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:05.039
Just the text that we did have we weren't going
592
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:06.640
to go speck ops together and we were kind of
593
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.000
looking at tach b and he mentioned in one of
594
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:14.240
the texts that something like it would he'd be happy
595
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.640
to get paid pretty yeah, exactly, But I was just like, Oh,
596
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:18.960
I mean, that's a kind of like a huge thing.
597
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.559
It's just a weird thing to say. So I was like, oh,
598
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:21.200
that's just huge.
599
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:24.440
And also, you know it's the enemy, So I mean,
600
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.519
I'm not I don't really take it as like he's.
601
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.599
Wanting to kill Anison's. It's more like the enemy.
602
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:34.240
Okay, these are exactly what you're referring to. Probably, Yeah,
603
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.359
the highlighted conversation between you guys, is that what you
604
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:38.400
were just talking about.
605
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:41.559
Let's go tach be together, yes, ma'am. Do you have
606
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:44.440
the one where it says he yes.
607
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:47.759
Yes, versus I would like to get paid to he'll
608
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.480
be And I don't have the next page, but from
609
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:53.039
what I recall that conversation, you guys like you didn't
610
00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:55.279
say whoa man, that's weird or you know, you guys
611
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:56.079
kind of just went on.
612
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:58.319
I think I just typed his name in all caps
613
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:00.720
because that's what I would always say if he said
614
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:02.680
something just like strange.
615
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:06.640
While Alex laughed off Mark's comment, there's no denying that
616
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:10.200
it's concerning. This text from Mark implies that he may
617
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.839
have been harboring these sorts of morbid desires long before
618
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:14.880
targeting Sasha.
619
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:16.319
It was all it was.
620
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:18.480
About respect to Like one guy in our such class,
621
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.000
he had his feet up on the desk one day
622
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:22.359
and Couch was like, oh, you should probably get your
623
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:26.759
innergative feet off the desk. And the other dude made,
624
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.440
you know, a snarky comment like, oh, you're telling me
625
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.119
what to do kind of thing. Yeah, And I could
626
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.759
tell that couchs got pretty pretty mad at that.
627
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.839
I was like, calm down.
628
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.119
From Alex's story about Mark, we can see some indications
629
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.759
that Mark may struggle with anger control. The story is
630
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:50.079
also indicative of excessive rigidity. People who are very rigid
631
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.839
when it comes to social rules may often get into
632
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.359
confrontations with others because they can't cope with seeing any
633
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:01.519
rule breaking behaviors they deem inappropriate. This might seem contradictory
634
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.240
at first, given the accusations against Mark, he may feel
635
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.199
that the rules don't apply to him. This is a
636
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:12.440
trade typically found in individuals with antisocial personality disorder.
637
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:16.280
How do you remember Mark reacting to stress?
638
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:22.000
Just stiff as a board, very very disciplined, never you know, never.
639
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.360
Screamed back, never lost his cool kind of thing.
640
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.000
Okay, you'd see like you'd see his face get read,
641
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:28.679
but I thought he.
642
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:29.400
Was just embarrassed.
643
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:32.920
Alex describes Marc as stiff as a board and mentions
644
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:36.599
his face turning red. These traits, in conjunction with how
645
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.920
we saw Mark acting during his interview, could be signs
646
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:43.599
that he's emotionally cut off. This is another trait that's
647
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:48.400
common among individuals with antisocial personality disorder and is tied
648
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:52.360
to their overall lack of empathy. While these few indicators
649
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:55.679
certainly aren't enough to give Mark a full diagnosis, they
650
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.039
can give us some insight into how he might think.
651
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:02.920
As investigators quiquestion those around Mark, they learned something very
652
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:06.840
interesting that could blow this case wide open. According to
653
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.960
kemper Kefley, Mark's best friend at Luke Air Force Base,
654
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.519
Mark had secretly kept a gun on base for several months. However,
655
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:17.760
he'd recently given the gun to another friend to store
656
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:21.400
off base. Detectives were quick to track this gun down
657
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:24.000
and bring it in for testing would show that it
658
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:28.159
was the same caliber as the bullet that killed Sasha. However,
659
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:30.960
while the police were in possession of Mark's gun, the
660
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:34.280
case took a turn. None of the investigators were expecting.
661
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.519
I got a text just a few minutes ago from
662
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:43.400
Sam Gooch that said Mark Gooch had said that I
663
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.559
could help him out with his possessions.
664
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.440
The detective is fine with Kemper working with Sam to
665
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.519
get some of Mark's belongings. However, he does have one request.
666
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:55.400
He starts asking about the gun. That's what we want
667
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:56.159
to know about.
668
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.000
And don't like provide them any information that you know
669
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.280
about the gun.
670
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:05.519
You can help them, so.
671
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:07.960
Not to do that.
672
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.519
Within a week of this call with Kemper, detectives were
673
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:15.000
notified that Sam had reached out to Jeremiah Levesque, the
674
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.880
last person who had Mark's gun before it was given
675
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:22.079
to the police. While working with Jeremiah, the police listened
676
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.800
in on a phone call between him and Sam where
677
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.119
Sam made plans to travel across state lines to Arizona
678
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.480
in order to dispose of Mark's gun before the police
679
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.239
could get it. In the call, Sam told Jeremiah, considering
680
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:38.840
what's going on, if you're comfortable, I would say get
681
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:42.480
rid of the gun any way you deem fit. If not,
682
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.199
I will deal with it whenever I get there. Jeremiah
683
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:48.719
was then able to arrange a meetup point with Sam,
684
00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:53.119
where they planned to trade Mark's gun. However, unbeknownst to Sam,
685
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:56.639
Jeremiah had been given a replica gun by the police,
686
00:36:57.079 --> 00:36:59.719
and officers were going to be covertly hidden around the
687
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:03.000
Meeta upside waiting to make their arrest.
688
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:33.880
Target took present for the second.
689
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:25.360
Hey call it in, I can't my phone.
690
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:33.960
Target is getting back in his car. Target has a gun.
691
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:43.159
He has it, he has it. Let's go, Tears office.
692
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.360
Get out of the car, Get.
693
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.239
Off the car, step out, now, get your hands up,
694
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:49.840
step away from the car.
695
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.480
Step forward to me, Turn away from me. Now, get
696
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:56.719
on your knees. Get on your knees, turn hand you
697
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:00.239
your head. Messinger, get out of the car. Hastener in
698
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:00.880
the back.
699
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:01.559
You know of the car.
700
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:06.599
With their sting operations successful and Sam Guch arrested, it
701
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.360
was time for the detectives to find out why Sam
702
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:13.519
was so set on disposing of Mark's gun. Detective Troy
703
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:16.440
Short was sent in to interrogate Sam, and he was
704
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.440
immediately met with resistance.
705
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:20.960
You want to start from the beginning and kind of
706
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.840
I believe you think I know more than I do,
707
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:29.280
and I'm so explaining what that means. You know what
708
00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:32.360
I mean? What if I know where they do help me.
709
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:38.760
Understand that, I almost say, necessarily a conversation for me
710
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:40.840
and I.
711
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:44.159
Do you want to tell me about tonight? Yes, sir.
712
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:47.840
If you want to tell me why you guys to
713
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:52.599
me halfway across the country to pick up a gun, yes, sir.
714
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.840
Do you understand why you're here in the room, Yes, sir,
715
00:38:56.599 --> 00:38:57.199
here's the deal.
716
00:38:57.320 --> 00:38:59.800
Sam. A part of me even feels bad right.
717
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:03.039
Now, because, like I told you back in Wisconsin, you
718
00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:07.639
aren't focused, you aren't a suspect, and now, because of
719
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.559
some bad choices, you're.
720
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:11.360
In some serious trouble.
721
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.760
Not as serious as Mark any means, you know what
722
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:16.960
I mean, He's in some serious, serious trouble. And I
723
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.559
try to explain that to you're back there is anything
724
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:21.519
you can do to help yourself right now or help
725
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:22.239
yourself out.
726
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:24.559
Of this mess, or very much I would like to.
727
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.000
I frankly do not believe you having my best interest
728
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:31.239
in mind, and I do not think discussing this with you.
729
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:33.039
Would be helpful. Well.
730
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:35.920
Sam may be refusing to give the detective the answers
731
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:39.079
he's looking for. He has yet to actually invoke his
732
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:43.119
miranda riots whether or not Sam knows this, refusing to
733
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:45.639
answer a line of questioning is not enough to stop
734
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:48.960
an interrogation and get a lawyer. We can see that
735
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:51.639
Sam is being very cautious and how he responds to
736
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.679
detective short When he pauses to take a sip of
737
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:58.000
water after being asked a question, It's likely that he
738
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.360
was doing this as a stalling tactic to allow himself
739
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:04.920
time to carefully pick his words. Sam appears to have
740
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.400
some prior knowledge about interrogations, as he is correct that
741
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:11.719
the detective doesn't have the suspect's best interests in mind.
742
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.000
He appears reluctant to speak because he likely doesn't want
743
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:18.360
to incriminate himself or his brother further by saying the
744
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:18.960
wrong thing.
745
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:21.639
Why did he call you for this extensive period of
746
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:26.840
time on that specific day, specific to the day that he's.
747
00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:28.840
Under arrest for murder? Do you know what I mean?
748
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.199
Extensive amount of phone calls.
749
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:35.079
That day for elaborates amount of time completely outset of
750
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:37.599
the normal of you guys, as a normal communication process.
751
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:40.760
Why are you in Arizona? Why did you fly off
752
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.239
there across the country? Why did you obtain a new
753
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:45.960
phone with a new phone number to do this? Why
754
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:48.280
are you here to camp again? That you know whom
755
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:51.039
to mart If you don't know what he did, then
756
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:54.639
why would you do that? You know what he allegedly did. Okay,
757
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.960
and understand that, so you know he allegedly murdered somebody.
758
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.719
Correct, Okay, you pick up a count that belonged to
759
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:04.719
specifically when I told you when I interviewed you back
760
00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:08.079
in Wisconsin. You know Mark Hessy guns and you're like, no,
761
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.199
I don't think he's allowed to have one base, do
762
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:11.800
you know what I mean?
763
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:14.840
Yes, sir, So what's the deal?
764
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.440
He would like to collect all of us possessions as possible,
765
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:19.960
if that kind is his.
766
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:21.559
Possession as ull.
767
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:25.159
Sam refuses to tell the detective why he tried to
768
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:30.119
dispose of Mark's gun, but there are a few possible explanations.
769
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.840
Mark claimed that Sam was his closest brother. It's possible
770
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:36.519
that he called Sam and used their close relationship to
771
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:39.280
convince Sam he had to get rid of the gun,
772
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.599
not because Mark killed someone, but because police thought he did.
773
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:47.000
It's more than evident that Sam has a distrust of
774
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:49.800
law enforcement, so it would make sense for Mark to
775
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:52.800
prey upon this feeling in order to persuade his brother
776
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:56.079
that if Sam didn't dispose of this weapon. The police
777
00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.039
were going to frame Mark for something he didn't.
778
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:04.440
Do, destruction of events, attempted, campering with events, attempted, henry, prostitution.
779
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:06.880
I mean there's two families in there, like this is
780
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:09.039
a big deal. So do you want to help me
781
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:10.880
understand it? Do you want to explain it to me?
782
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:11.440
You want to?
783
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:16.159
I don't think so what is next in this process?
784
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:18.519
The next part? You go into jail? Be fair?
785
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.360
The way I see it, talking and discussing this with you,
786
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:26.360
you will only use it against me to make these
787
00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:27.360
charges stick.
788
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:30.519
And to further made more.
789
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.079
Since Sam clearly understands how his words could be used
790
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.239
against him, it's all that he's still agreeing to sit here,
791
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:41.159
rather than asking for an attorney or outright refusing to respond.
792
00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.760
It's possible that his curiosity got the better of him
793
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.440
and he wants to find out how much the detectives
794
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:51.239
know about Mark's crime. It's also possible that Sam is
795
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:54.000
afraid and feels that if he at least agrees to
796
00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:56.880
sit in the interrogation room, he may be able to
797
00:42:56.920 --> 00:43:01.760
dodge the consequences of having helped Mark. With Sam's interview
798
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:04.599
at a stalemate, the detectives are forced to look elsewhere
799
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:09.000
for information throughout their entire investigation. The one thing they
800
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:12.679
haven't been able to deduce clearly is motive. Was this
801
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:16.199
just a random killing or was there something more at
802
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:19.559
play here. While it's clear that Mark had some sort
803
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.039
of grudge against Mennonites, it made no sense that someone
804
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:26.360
with no prior criminal history would suddenly plan an elaborate
805
00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:30.000
murder six hours away from their home and target someone
806
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:33.079
they'd never even heard of before. At least that's what
807
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:36.199
Detective Nagel thought until she spoke with some Mennonites from
808
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.559
Wisconsin and discovered that Mark's past wasn't quite as clean
809
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:44.760
as it seemed. In a phone interview with Mark's former pastor,
810
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.199
James Luke Martin, Detective Nagel learned that no one at
811
00:43:48.280 --> 00:43:51.039
Mark's former church was surprised to learn that he'd now
812
00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:54.679
been arrested in connection with such a heinous crime, as
813
00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:58.480
Mark had a reputation for taking revenge on others. Mark
814
00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:02.039
had also allegedly been involved in several robberies at the church.
815
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:05.079
When the church tried to punish him for his involvement,
816
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:07.960
his parents stepped in and decided to leave the church
817
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:11.719
for being too critical of Mark. However, this was not
818
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:15.440
the end of Mark's criminal activities. While living with his
819
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:19.320
sister in Pennsylvania, Mark was accused of stealing money from
820
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:23.360
the local Mennonites. Soon after, everyone who accused Mark of
821
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:28.400
stealing money discovered that their car suspiciously stopped working. After
822
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:32.280
investigating further, these Mennonites found that sand had been placed
823
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:35.639
into the oil pans of their cars, causing their engines
824
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:39.440
to stop working. While those affected weren't able to prove
825
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.360
it was Mark who put the sand there, it doesn't
826
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.559
seem like a coincidence given his interest in mechanics and
827
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.599
a parent taste for revenge. Detective Nagel then spoke to
828
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.519
Jonathan Martin, the son of Mark's pastor, who provided further
829
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:57.800
examples of Mark getting caught stealing. Jonathan even said that
830
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:00.840
when he was angry, Mark would prowl round the men
831
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:04.079
and I community to see what he could find. After
832
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.440
speaking with Jonathan's son, Detective Nagle learned that Mark had
833
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:11.880
allegedly robbed the Martin's family store. However, charges were never
834
00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.559
pressed due to the fact that the store security camera
835
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:18.280
had its memory cards stolen, so there was never visual
836
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.440
proof of Mark being the one who robbed the Storm.
837
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:23.880
While there may not have been any evidence of Mark's
838
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:27.119
involvement at the time of the robbery, Detective Nakel was
839
00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.360
able to actually find the security footage from that robbery
840
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:33.719
on Mark's own phone, and it showed a man with
841
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:37.519
Mark's height and build robbing the Storm. In one of
842
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:41.000
the photos, a car that looked suspiciously like Marx could
843
00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:44.920
be seen in the background. With these photos, Detective Nakell
844
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:48.599
had what appeared to be tangible proof that these accusations
845
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:53.280
against Mark weren't just hearsay. Eventually, the detective got a
846
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:55.920
hold of Jared Ulrich, a man who claimed to be
847
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:59.880
Mark's partner in crime in the past. Jared openly confessed
848
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:04.079
Detective Nagel about all the robberies he'd allegedly committed with Mark,
849
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:07.079
and he described in detail how Mark would try to
850
00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:11.000
frame other people in the community for their crimes. There
851
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:13.679
definitely seemed to be evidence that Jared may have been
852
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:16.719
telling the truth, as a series of texts were found
853
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.280
on Mark's phone, all of which had been recently deleted.
854
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.280
In these texts, Mark talked to Sam about Jared never
855
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:28.440
understanding the real cost of getting caught. Mark then asked
856
00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:32.000
Sam to remotely wipe Jared's phone, something that he also
857
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.440
asked Sam to do to his own phone after he
858
00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:38.079
fell under suspicion for Sasha's murder. While all of this
859
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:42.039
information against Mark was damning enough, there was still one
860
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:46.920
more disturbing truth to learn. Through many more interviews, Detective
861
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:50.559
Nagel was eventually put in contact with Andrew and Galen Headings,
862
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:53.440
a pair of brothers who were close with Mark during
863
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.239
his time in Wisconsin. Andrew recounted a time where he
864
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.599
had confronted Mark for stealing, and during their call conversation,
865
00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:03.719
Mark was so cold and bitter that Andrew said he
866
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:07.599
feared for his life. Galen had an even more disturbing
867
00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:11.079
revelation for Detective Nagel as he told her about Mark's
868
00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:16.320
alleged inappropriate actions towards women. According to Galen, Mark confessed
869
00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:18.840
to him that he had allegedly assaulted a young girl
870
00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:21.800
his sister was babysitting when he was around ten to
871
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.920
thirteen years old. However, this claim has never been publicly
872
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:29.840
proven and there's no evidence of it being true. Still,
873
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:33.159
with this information, it became clear that Mark always had
874
00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:37.079
the capacity to harm others, and allegedly had many times
875
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:40.679
in the past. Mark's motive in harming Sasha was also
876
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:44.639
more evident than ever. All the unfounded anger and resentment
877
00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:48.280
he had towards the Mennonite community had been steadily growing
878
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:51.320
over the years, and as it did, Mark took his
879
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:55.280
revenge against them further and further. Up to this point,
880
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:58.400
charges had never been pressed against Mark, and he felt
881
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.119
like he could outsmart anyone and even the police. With
882
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:05.639
this misplaced confidence, Mark decided to see if he could
883
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:09.800
get away with the ultimate crime, murder. It appears that
884
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:11.920
Mark had gone to the men and I community that
885
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.559
day in search of a victim, and tragically, Sasha was
886
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:19.159
in the wrong place at the wrong time. Mark grabbed
887
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:21.159
her from her car late at night and no one
888
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:24.880
saw a thing. Still, that didn't prevent him from getting caught.
889
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:28.760
Unfortunately for him, while no one had previously pressed any
890
00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.920
charges for his theft, the state of Arizona was more
891
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:35.000
than happy to charge Mark for Sasha's murder and put
892
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:39.159
him on trial. Mark's trial began on September twenty fourth,
893
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:43.559
twenty twenty one. In January of twenty twenty two, the
894
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:46.960
jury found Mark guilty on charges of kidnapping and first
895
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:51.280
degree murder, earning him a life sentence. For his help
896
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:55.079
in covering up Mark's crimes, Sam Gooch pleaded guilty and
897
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:59.639
received three years probation. With both Sam and Mark dealt with,
898
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.199
Sasha Krauss and her family finally received the justice they
899
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:04.679
deserve