Inside the Collective | EP06 | Willie Mack | Turning Culture Into Commerce

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Hello everybody and welcome to Inside the Collective, where we dig into the thinking behind how people work.
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Today I'm joined by Willie Mack, a creative and commercial strategist who spent his career at the intersection of culture, brands, and revenue.
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Willie has built brands from scratch, co-founded companies, lobbied for legislation, and somewhere in between, picked up a camera.
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He's led over a billion dollars in licensing and partnership deals, co-authored the law that opened New York's cannabis market, and he's currently a partner at the Jays as well as a partner here at Care Collectives.
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Willie, welcome.
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Hi, Brad.
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Good to see you.
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How are you doing?
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Awesome.
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I'm really excited about our conversation.
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Um, we are gonna warm up with a rapid fire version of this or that.
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So don't overthink it, just go with the gut feel.
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Boardroom or stage?
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Stage.
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Strategy or story?
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Sorry.
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New York City or Los Angeles.
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Oh wow.
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If you can't follow the rules, make your own, I see.
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I can ask that question.
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Camera or contract?
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Build it or break it?
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Break it.
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Nice.
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All right, let's jump into some uh more meaty questions here.
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You've described your work as turning what if into holy shit that worked.
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Where did that instinct come from originally?
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You know, I think it came from being a creative since I was a kid and just always sort of having ideas in my head and then bringing them to life.
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So I think from like sketching or drawing, but actually more when I was had a camera for the first time, you know, being able to take a picture and then the magic of waiting for film to get developed and then seeing something being like, oh, that actually worked.
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That's beautiful.
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I actually was able to capture this thing that I saw, this image or creative moment that I saw on my mind.
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You've um you've moved across creative agencies, licensing companies, cannabis startups, and Death Tech.
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What's the through line you kept coming back to, even when the industry changes?
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That's what a good question.
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Um I think for me, it's always been about what story are we trying to tell and how can we find a way to help someone bring an idea to life?
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You know, what does that look like when it becomes when it's you know, new industry trying to sort of explain or change the way we view a plant and its medical benefits?
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To how do we reimagine what it means, the end-of-life process?
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How do how does that look and what does that feel like?
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You know, I think at the end of the day, it's always been about how do we connect what's happening in culture to a goal within commerce, but also a way to bring community together, how do we create community bringing together?
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What was the moment early in your career where you realized that an idea wasn't enough on its own, that it had to also move a number?
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That's a really good question.
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I mean, I think it really comes goes back to after I left the corporate world when I was working for Oracle and Nextel and started working for work my first job as an agency and had to pitch a client to win something.
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So going from internal to going to agency side and having ideas that we had to present, but also had there had to be some return on investment.
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Um, you know, I started my first company when I was what 25 and funded it myself.
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So the idea of, okay, is this going to work was always was was important to me to be like a great idea, but is it how we're gonna make money?
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And at the end of the day, I think when you start to invest your own time and money into an idea, as a crew, as a businessman, part of it is like, well, is this gonna work?
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How do we get to this thing working?
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As the creative side of me is more like, but I there's a there's a part of my soul that needs to be expressed.
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Finding the sort of tension and the and balance and the tension between the two is something that you have to sort of get to at some point.
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Um, and you have to, and and you're forced to get to that way at some point because you can't just sort of throw money at things and hope that it works.
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You want you want to be you want to make sure there's a commercialization of your idea, because I think in many ways that then provides a validation that there is a purpose and a place for it in the world if it's not just a piece of art.
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I remember very early in my career, a creative director just out of nowhere kind of said, Hey guys, stop thinking about this as advertising money.
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When we think about this as advertising money, it creates this false construct that it's imaginary money and these zeros are all bouncing around.
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He's like, these people are spending real money with us to get a return on that investment.
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And that was, I think that was year one, and it really just changed my brain around seeing budgets because it's like they're huge numbers, but there's a there's an expectation.
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So yeah, I think that I love I love that.
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I think part of it also is I remember I had a one of my first jobs um was with an entrepreneur, and he would tell us, he's like, as we're building the business, but also working with clients, like you have to run this.
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We I need you all to act like this is your business.
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It's my money, but it's our money.
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The more we make collectively, the better for all of us.
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So don't just spend money like it like it doesn't matter.
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Yeah.
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Profit sharing really becomes a powerful tool if you want to grow.
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Yeah.
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Everyone needs to be invested in it.
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Yeah.
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It's not good enough to say we're a family business.
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Everyone's family here.
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Um, so you've done over a billion dollars in partnership deals.
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What do most people understand about what a great partnership actually is?
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I think good part is understand that there's an equal value or some value that everyone is coming to the table together.
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So the idea of a sports team, what is everyone bringing that's going to allow the system and the partnership to work well?
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What are you bringing?
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What are what is the part what are the partners bringing that everyone does something different, but the collectively, collectively it all sort of expands to something stronger?
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I think that's the key for really good partnerships from professional partnerships to partnerships of clients, brands to talent.
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Like where is everyone being respected for their strengths, recognized where they're they might be less strength, but at the same time we're all the we're all sharing, but then a similar goal, and the path to get there is something that we're all agreed to.
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So there's a there's a version of culture meets commerce that's just marketing dressed up.
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How do you tell the difference between work that genuinely moves culture and work that just borrows or steals from it?
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I've been very much lucky, and in many ways, being in New York in the 90s and 2000s, where so much culture started, I was it's it's for me, it was less about moving culture and making sure that you're respecting the culture that you're part of, or the culture that you're dipping into, or the culture that you're sort of helping share, expand the story of.
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So when you're coming in and the because the culture is where, if it's the underground, if it's wherever it's coming from, it's art or music or design, wherever that, where whatever that community that's built this system or connected in some way, our job and my job has always been how do I give you a platform to expand this to connect to the bigger community that's outside of this space that you're in, if that's a physical culture or even a digital culture.
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So the movement happens because the community is tied to something that they see as real and there's an authenticity there.
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I think a lot of brands try to sort of connect to culture and you see them fail because they're connecting to culture they don't understand, they don't respect, or they're not really a part of, or they don't, or they haven't taken the time to really find and respect the history or the or the real sort of tenets, what that culture is about, and then working within the culture with people within the culture to have them become the advocates for in a way that becomes real and authentic.
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I think we can see through, especially over the, you know, we've seen so many weeks, we can see and we've seen so many examples where it's done right, and so many ones where it's like that seems like it was just a check, or someone is, you know, taking advantage of a culture just because they think that this is what's cool in its hip right now, or it's going to lead somewhere and it ends up not being sort of real in the long term or working on the long term.
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It's like a monstrous gap between mimicking and understanding the nuance.
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Yeah.
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I think it's it's yeah.
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I mean, I think when you look at it from like if you're inspired by something and you want to sh share that story, that's a that's authentic.
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If you're inspired by something and you want to take that story and repackage it in a way that disconnects it from the history of it, that's mimic, that's mimicking.
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And I think that you know ultimately the real community that and now with the speed of the internet, people will call you out on that.
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Rightly so.
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Yeah.
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So when you're pitching a partnership, what's the other side usually underestimate about what they're actually agreeing to?
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I think they're underestimating.
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Most people, most partnerships underestimate the amount of work it takes on both partner sides and make the partnership work.
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A lot of times when you're the one funding a partnership, you want it to be easy on your side.
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But if your team is not willing to make the investment, to say, you know, this is something that we're it's gonna take us time.
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It's gonna take us a certain amount of, you know, we're gonna need to bring something to this.
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We're not just it's it's there's a it's collaborative in a way that should be respectful.
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The collaborations, I mean, as a creative and as you want to collaborate.
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You want to hopefully you're trying to build something together that you both agree is something that you both love or trying to do.
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And it's not just being done as a way to either, you know, make money and or just a way to, you know, get return investment.
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If there's a way to actually create a collaboration that's real, that's rooted in authenticity and also rooted in the shared sense of let's do something interesting because it's gonna take time.
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It's gonna, there will be long days, sometimes hard nights.
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You know, there'll be ways, there'll be difficulties, and you know, there'll be a lot of things that you'll both have to find agreement on that maybe you need to adjust your expectation and be and having a partner that allows you to do that and gives you the space.
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One on the artist side that gives the artist the space, the creative the space, or the talent, the space to be themselves and recognize that there is a vulnerability and a and a creative process that creators have to go through in order to achieve the level of sort of comfort that they have with sharing themselves with the world.
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And then on the brand side or the business side, recognizing that yes, you're going to provide a framework and a and and a and uh resources, but those resources can't come with too many strings that's going to strangle the collaboration in the long term.
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Feels like there's a fourth pillar that we miss in a partnership, right?
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You've got party one, party two, the common problem you're solving, but then we forget to pay enough attention to the partnership that's got to be fed and nourished and kept alive to facilitate the successful achieving of the problem you partnered up to solve in the first place.
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Exactly.
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Because you now you because you're creating a new entity in many ways that didn't exist before.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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The old adage form, storm, and norm just rings true every time something new is created.
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Um what's a what's a strategic move that looks compelling on a slide but quietly makes the work worse?
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That's a good question.
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Yeah, that's let me think about that for a second.
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You know, I think a lot of times you'll sort of come out of your strategy phase with a lot of insights around, you know, here's where an audience is, here's how we can potentially, you know, address some unresolved problem that might seem like it's the win, um, but then you get into it and you realize it's more complicated than you thought it was.
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The audience is much maybe more sort of disjointed, you maybe don't have the right voice for the, or you're not, you don't have the right sort of advocates to speaking in your voice and the tone that's there, or maybe sometimes it's the wrong fit.
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And that sometimes takes a bit of a while.
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That takes a while to figure out.
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Like it takes getting into the weeds and recognizing maybe this wasn't the right timing, maybe this isn't the right moment for this.
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Maybe we are too ahead of the curve and the and the world is not ready for this idea, or it's gonna take a lot longer than you expect it to take because the market is not really ready, or the market is undersaturated, and there's not enough critical, sort of, you know, critical mass move this to where it is at this time.
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But, you know, we have I mean, I can so many examples of companies that started too soon and then, you know, two, three, four years later, it's like, oh, the eighth version of that company or that industry is what actually be what actually would actually worse.
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I mean, I think about Foursquare from way back in the day, that was the location checking in where you're at.
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They were so ahead of their curve in so many ways.
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Um, but couldn't we never could get that sort of full critical mass that I think they that they would have wanted or needed.
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But now location check-in is just part of ubiquitous how we navigate our lives.
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You've you've worked with legacy IP, building on Biggie's name and story, and you've built things from nothing.
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Which one's harder and what's the difference about the kind of judgment that each demand?
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Everything has its challenge.
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I don't think anything's harder or one's harder than the other.
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I think starting from scratch is, I think, has a much bigger sort of roadmap to sort of navigate and pitfalls.
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And I think you have to do much more due diligence.
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Um, even work with like like like a brand like Ray Ban.
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I mean, we work with them, they were with Exotica groups just relaunching the brand.
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They were concerned, you know, is it sounds so weird to say now, is Ray-Ban going to be wanted by by the by the public?
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Like, will this work?
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Because it was, it had become down market because it was, you know, when Bosch and Lawn had Bosch and Long had them.
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Um, so you have a different sort of challenges versus, you know, creating a new brand or creating a new sort of even spinning off another brand or a sub brand from a current from a from a legacy brand, you still have to go with the same challenges.
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You still have to understand, like, am I am I addressing the right audience?
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Is this the right opportunity?
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What is the acquisition?
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What are we gonna, what are we gonna do?
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And then how do we go that, how do we bring that to market?
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What is the process to bring that to market?
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And are we really go?
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Do we have an is our strategy strong enough and has our rigor been good enough in order for us to allow for this to grow in a way that, you know, hopefully more exciting and expansive than people could imagine?
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But sometimes it doesn't work that way.
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When you're working closely with a founder, how do you know when they're too close to their own story to see what it actually is?
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That's you know, I spend a lot of my time working with founders, um, not just on the business, but also what is sort of happening in your life.
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I I spent a lot of time, I got started my career with um when I was at Nextel and work with um woman who had spent a lot of time working with um Dr.
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Albert Deming, who's creative of sort of Sigma 7 and the systems thinking, a lot of time working with Shaman, you know, Stephen Cutler as well, around sort of his work around flow and creativity and sort of what are the neuroaesthetics around sort of how do you build a full system of, you know, you're not just your work as a founder is not disconnected from your personal life.
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So, for example, back two founders in the past.
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One of my first questions is let's talk about your life.
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Are you married?
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Are you single?
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Do you have kids?
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If you have one founder that's married, his kids are going to college, another founder that's married or and he's about to have a kid, they're very different phrases of their lives.
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It's like, well, one of you might have a lot more time to devote to this than the other one just by the mere fact that you're about to have a baby and your first child or whatever it is, or you know, if you're both you know single, whatever it is, it's like, how do we look at what this holistic point of how you live your life and all the things that are happening to make sure that we're taking to consideration what this means as you're going into this path to build this business and what does that look like?
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And sometimes the founders too close to their idea, I think it really becomes a question of how do you sort of explain to them that I know your idea sounds great in your head, but are you the audience?
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A lot of times people are sort of like, I have this idea as a great concept, but remember, are you the target audience?
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Like, are you if you're targeting a different generation, if you're targeting something else, like it's not all it you have to kind of remind them that it's not always about you, depending upon the type of business that it is.
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Obviously, if it's a fashion designer, it's their brand, and it's their look, and they're, you know, this an artist, it's a different conversation.
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But I think that when you're thinking about business, you have to always remind them, like, focus on the situation, not the individual desire, because at the end of the day, that's what's going to drive you to success in the long term.
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I don't know that I could count the number of times I have said to a client, you are not your customer.
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Um, that that inability to disassociate from, you know, I like blue, to that doesn't resonate with the target audience.
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Um I want to talk about I want to talk about um a couple of segments, categories that you've worked in.
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You've worked in um cannabis and you've worked in Death Tech.
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What does it stay, what does it take to stay human in a space where most brands either sensationalize or sanitize?
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You know, I think what it takes to stay human in those types of situations are two things.
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I mean, I think one you have to determine what you're trying to say to the audience that's that's very important to you, and finding a way that's that continues to look at what problem are we solving for the individual ultimately.
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Like how am I making your life better?
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How am I making how am I inspiring you?
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What are we doing that can allow for something that allows you to feel connected to it in a way that is ultimately, you know, excitement and some form of desire that extends beyond just making money?
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And and from how is how I've always looked at it.
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You know, so you know the cannabis space, like so much of when I first started was in the CBD and the health and wellness side.
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Like we have families who are suffering from kids with epilepsy, autism, people dealing with severe injured injuries, lots of pain.
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How do you, you know, to take a to to go and to remove the human connection to that, as well as the connection of the history of the prohibition of it is disingenuous to the foundation of the culture.
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And if you really want to tap into what is going to take, what's going to be connected to the the authentic side of the business, you have to kind of look into well, what is the human, what where is the human side of this?
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What where how do we humanize this so that at the end of the day, we're we are all going to uh connect to this on a personal level, people going to spend their money, connect to it in some way, share about it, talk about it, create content about it, get upset at you for whatever it is at some level.
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You need to, you can't go to stay, in my opinion, because then you aren't really building a bridge that I think has longevity.
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If you think about some of the most successful brands in the world, there's a there's a connection to them.
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You know, if could Apple, some of the bigger, sort of like iconic brands have been around for forever.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:13.359
This, you know, from like Marshall with music and all these other companies that have been around for so long and continue to navigate the the the storms of running a business, it goes back to does this make me feel some kind of way?
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:14.559
What's my connection to it?
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:16.000
Do I want to share this with someone?
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:21.359
Am I proud to be part of this collective of individuals who are part of this community?
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:43.359
And I think that is ultimately where we all should be looking at because, you know, at the end of the day, we're all trying to find a way to make our lives a little bit easier, spend time with people that we love, feel good about ourselves, hopefully share in something that's exciting to us and not something that's making us anxious or an or giving us anxiety.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:53.680
It feels a bit like the brands that we choose are sort of a patch or a flag for the tribes that we want to be in or are or are already in.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:54.160
Yeah.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:05.440
I mean, I, in the beginning of my career, when I started my first company, you know, and even to this day, I was like the brands that I work with are in many ways a reflection of me and a reflection of what I choose to spend my time with.
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.079
Because at the end of the day, the most valuable resource we all have is time.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:09.680
Something we cannot get back.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:20.079
And how you choose to spend that time, again, with partnerships, with coworkers, with clients, with other artists, and even as a creative myself, it's like, what do I want to spend my time on?
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:24.480
Which project, which body of work as a photographer, which body of work as a visual artist?
00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:35.440
Because at the end of the day, I want to make sure that it's connecting to something that's hopefully going to make me feel a greater sense of awe and hopefully wonder and my daily life in some small way.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:49.359
I for a while now I keep have this theme going through my brain, which is, you know, it it used to be about creation, creation, creation, and and you know, scale and and as much as possible.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:59.759
And now I find myself much more in the realm of curation and slowing down and and like when I go to photograph a space.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.400
I love to sit in the space for an hour before I touch the camera and just, you know, get a sense of what's happening.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:14.480
And so the editing and the narrowing down and um that that seems to be resonating more with how I walk through through life.
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:22.480
And it feels like that curation that you've been doing of the customers that you work with helps you reaffirm who you are.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:23.759
Yeah.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:29.759
You know, it's funny on the photography side, like I was I have a series around traveling called Soft Exit.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.759
And I think Tone's asking me like, what's the inspiration?
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.680
I'm like, you know, I'll go to I'll travel somewhere.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.839
And sometimes I'll have an idea in my if I'm traveling, I'm gonna sort of shoot some story.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:55.119
But a lot of times I'll just go and spend like the first day just getting a sense of where I am and what am I seeing and allowing myself the time and the space to kind of walk without an intention to find the intention based upon wherever I am, to take in what's around.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:17.519
I think that the more we allow ourselves that space and time, and I think that as we're looking at the pace and speed of technology and AI and all these things, sort of moving us, I think, further away from our individual selves and our individual time and our and like, you know, where the COVID put us all out, took us all took us away from each other, all the ways in which we've disconnected from each other.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:21.119
I think where there's a hunger and desire to come back together again.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.519
And how do we find community?
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:25.920
But what does that feel, what does community feel like?
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:30.799
And part of that is slowing down to be to recognize what's missing, why it's missing.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:32.799
You know, I've had a meditation practice for a long time.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:41.440
Part of it is also just that sort of pace of like, you know, for me, photography and meditation are so intricate, are so intrinquid, uh, so tied together.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:50.640
So tied together because they both sort of force me to slow down and they force me to take a moment and to take a breath.
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:59.680
And, you know, you're shooting film, you're gonna have to, you know, be a little bit more steady, and you only have 36 roles if you're, you know, it's like, or sometimes 24, depending upon what you're shooting.
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:13.039
And that process of slowing down, taking a breath, feeling and sensing what's going on, I think is is is just so part of the human sort of system of how we navigate the world.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:27.839
And yeah, we move around really fast between, you know, on planes and trains and flying and doing all these things and working with clients, but at the same time, taking the time to be still and allow your brain to have wonder and awe come back with that's unforced.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:31.680
I think something we all should really be getting back towards as often as we can.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:38.720
A friend of mine, Kieran, uh, talked to me about you know very much that process slowing down.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:51.519
And he put me on to a um meditation practice of going outside and sitting in a space until I could identify 14 or 15 different sounds.
00:24:52.319 --> 00:25:01.519
And and it just that process of doing that grounded me in the in the physical space that I was in, but it also just slowed down everything.
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:06.319
And it it's been something I continue to do since he introduced it to me, and I'm I'm so grateful for that.
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:06.720
Yeah.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.079
Let's let's do a uh a hard direction change here.
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:12.559
Um, co-authoring legislation.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.240
Uh it's a very different kind of creative act than launching a campaign.
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:21.440
Um, what did that process teach you about how real change actually happens?
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:33.920
You know, lobbying for something that you believe in and hopefully that's going to affect millions of people's lives in a positive way is something I never expected I would be doing.
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:39.200
Um the process of doing it, one, it takes a it it's not it's not fast.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:43.200
Government does not move quickly, especially the US government, as we know.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:51.759
It can somehow in the last year can do things very quickly that I we only go down that path, but usually getting laws passed takes time.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:26:06.079
And, you know, patience and a lot of, you know, how do you utilize culture to shift public perception around something that can ultimately be good?
00:26:06.319 --> 00:27:23.839
You know, how do you take something that is sort of the prohibition of cannabis and use a means of culture and music and creativity and talk about the sort of benefits that it will have to society, recidivism, writing the wrongs of the writing the wrongs of the past, as well as as an economic driver to invest into a new market and a growth engine from education, economic development, jobs, community repair, fusing and spending the time to understand and learn all those various pieces, and then being able to work with lobbyists and legislators to go through the drafting and revisiting and the redrafting and the changing processes, and then seeing firsthand a lot of the sort of legislative process from the from the inside in terms of committees and votes and caucuses and sitting down and just like really educating yourself and then educating the people that you're trying to hopefully shape their hearts and minds, as well as the keep on the ground community activism, going to various sort of districts and department and you know organizations and building a coalition of people who want to support you and like being and dealing with a lot of the ups and downs and various questions and all the concerns that people legitimately have about anything that's gonna affect their day-to-day life.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.160
And having the right team and people to support you and helping you draft that, I think is critical.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.000
You know, it's not something I did on my own.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:54.720
It's not something that I was like even planning on doing in many ways, but the fact that I was able to spend a couple of years really having that be a part of uh a personal and professional goal to try to do something that I felt was right and to do it in a place that like I spent so much of my life and my family had been there, and to see firsthand the effects of this of the law not being in the right way was is one of the biggest things I'm most proud of in my career, actually.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:04.160
I can't imagine there's a lot of human beings in in the space that you and I work in that can put that in their uh in their CV.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:05.920
So um love it.
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:12.319
Um we we talked about photography, and I feel like you and I could probably spend a good couple of hours or days talking about it.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:16.079
Um, but I want to I want to contextualize it a little bit.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:23.519
How does the way that you see through a lens change the way that you approach a business problem?
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:25.359
Hmm, that's right.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.119
That's a really good question.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.920
Only if another photographer could ask me that question.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.559
I don't think anyone's ever asked me to pose me sort of a parallel between this and the way it's actually I don't know if you remember that with this one.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.640
Um you know, it's funny.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:48.720
Every before I start any project or any business, there's always the idea or something.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:54.559
And you know, back in the day it was mood boards, you know, get a magic bunch of magazines, cut them up, kind of visualize what it is.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:03.119
So as a visual learner and as a and as a visual communicator, for me, photography has always always been the lens by which I approach or attack any problem in my life.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:07.440
If I can't see it in my mind's eye, then I can't identify it.
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:21.519
So it doesn't, it's until I can, even if it's an abstract idea or concept, if I don't start to sort of visualize it and see it, that become when that does have when that happens, that allows me to then go through the process of okay, how do we solve this problem?
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:22.319
What is the challenge?
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:23.440
What is the opportunity?
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:24.640
How do I create this?
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:26.160
Where, how do I navigate this?
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:27.200
Where are the roadblocks?
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:28.319
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.880
Um, you know, seeing through the lens of the camera, I mean, if it it takes, you have to focus in.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:42.640
And there's a lot of like, you know, I there's a lot of information that's being presented in our eyes all the time that we just miss because our brains can't process it.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:55.359
Um, and I think, you know, you, as every photographer tells you, you take a picture, sometimes you're like, well, I didn't realize this over here on the other side was actually in focus, or there was a thing here or color, or there's some, and that's the beauty of my one of my professions called the photo gods have like blessed you to be able to sort of capture that.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:55.920
And that's part of that.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:57.039
I think the magic of it.
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.799
Um, I think the same sort of rigor sometimes comes in with the business.
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.519
It's like you're trying to see everything, but you can't see everything.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:09.599
So you try to focus in on what the most important things are at that point in time, at that stage, and you capture that, process it.
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:29.200
But a lot of times you're also, especially in the strategy side, like you're getting insights from everywhere in the pattern recognition that our amazing brains, these pattern recognition machines are doing, is storing it and tagging it and pulling it from something before and an inspiration over here and make sure that over here and this book over here, and this quote and this podcast and this thing.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:38.799
And then as you start to go down the path, you start to, especially with, you know, I do a lot of work that's all bodies of work, you start to see the patterns and the through lines because of the collections of images that you've created.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:40.160
I think the same thing's in business.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.799
You start to see opportunities and new ways of doing things.
00:30:42.880 --> 00:31:04.079
Like maybe it's a phase one, but over time you can start to over time, you start to map out all the things that you maybe forgot you saw, but it was always there, just now being sort of reconnect, repositioned in a place where it makes the most sense or makes more sense because you kind of because you've taken the time to kind of step away, come back, pause, look at it.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:05.119
Is this right?
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:05.839
That's great.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.440
How do I keep moving forward?
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.759
Let's edit this out, bring this over here.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:19.839
That process for me is that's the best analogy I can find around how I looking through a camera and looking at business solves a way for me to be creative.
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.519
I I had a lesson in humility a few years ago.
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:33.759
I I got up at four o'clock in the morning and I went out to this um natural structure in Western Australia called Nature's Window.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:36.000
And there was uh a supermoon.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.599
And so I wanted to photograph the moon through this arch.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:43.920
Like think Monument Valley, kind of red earth, but it's deteriorated, and there's a little thing.
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:45.759
And I desperately wanted to get this shot.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:49.359
I could picture it in my head, and I could not get the exposure.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.519
It just it looked like trash.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.799
Um, and then I went, This sucks.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:00.720
And I stepped away and I went, I bet I can do a Milky Way photo right now.
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:06.640
And I did, and it's one of the best photos I've ever taken in my life because I was able to go, I can't get what I want.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:07.279
This sucks.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.559
What can I do here?
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:11.519
And I and I didn't go out with the intention to shoot it.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:18.559
And somehow I feel like that made it better because I got into you know a flow state of being in the moment and going, what else can I do here?
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:26.480
And I think that's translated back to business world, consulting world is what are the mistakes I'm making?
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:32.240
What am I holding on to too tightly that are preventing me from seeing what's literally just out of frame?
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:36.400
Um, so it's uh it what you've shared with me really, really resonates.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:37.119
That's amazing.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:38.720
Um let's stick with creativity.
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:39.279
Sure.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:40.799
Um thanks, mean.
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:46.880
Um, what's something that you used to believe about creativity that you've had to revise?
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:55.759
Something I used to believe about creativity that I've had to revise.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:05.519
I would say that um you have to be taught how to be an artist.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:10.319
I think that at the end of the day, I've revised that over many decades ago.
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:11.839
I think everyone's creative.
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:17.519
I think just our society doesn't nurture the inherent create create creative forces or ideas that we have.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:27.039
I think that if more people are allowed to express themselves and be creative in whatever it is, um, and I don't think I don't think creativity is just for the sort of creative arts.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:31.359
I think you know, as we see, you know, I have great lawyers.
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.359
They're extraordinarily creative when it comes to legal.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.519
I have great accountants who, you know, it's just like they're fine.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:38.160
I have there's like there's so much creativity in every industry.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:53.839
And I think we've spent so much time kind of giving a bigger platform and a more credibility to the traditional creative arts versus the ideas of, you know, how can I be an amazing gardener?
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.039
How can I be a creative parent?
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:56.559
How can I be a creative partner?
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.160
How can I be, you know, the best version of who you ever are you individually?
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:14.719
I think that takes a lot of creativity to find the strength within this world that's saying you are sometimes not good enough, or your ideas aren't great enough, or you don't have the refinement or the pedigree that you that I think sometimes we want to give to validate someone's creativity.
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:19.840
I think, yes, you need, I think skill and training and learning education is critical.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:27.840
But at the same time, providing a foundation for support of like this is something I'm interested in, and I want to kind of try this out.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:29.840
And if I fail, it's, you know, it doesn't matter.
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:32.239
It's not about failing, it's about art for art's sake.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:56.880
I think that's something that growing up, it wasn't, it was not something that I saw as a possibility or a way in which we look at other people's creativity and sort of can nurture and support that when you're when you're brought in as an outsider, whether it's as a chief creative officer, a co-founder, or an advisor, what does earning real trust in that situation actually require?
00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:58.559
Listening.
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:00.639
And really listening.
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:02.880
I think trust comes from real listening.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:07.599
How do you, how do I really, how do I take the time to hear what you're saying and what you're not saying?
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:09.280
How do I ask good questions?
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:18.719
How do I, you know, allow you a safe space and a good place to be able to express your hopes and dreams and fears and wants and desires without judgment.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:25.920
Um, so that you can sort of, so that the individual, the company has an opportunity to be like, here's what we're struggling with, and our sales are down, and we're having this competition.
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:30.639
We have a lot of, you know, it's people forget all these businesses are being run by individuals.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:32.559
There's still there's a human element to all of them.
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:43.039
No one wants to fail, no one wants to sort of struggle, no one wants to, you know, not have something, have an idea not work, but we that happens just the part of the part of life.
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:48.719
Um, it's not always, you know, you can't appreciate the roses without the borns, as a friend of mine said to me many years ago.
00:35:48.960 --> 00:36:01.599
And it's true, it's sort of like you, we, but to be, but in order to provide someone a place and a s and the space to allow for that open dialogue and conversation, allow for, you know, here's where we're trying to get to.
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:04.559
I don't know if we can get there, but I hope you we can all figure it out together.
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:09.920
Or here's where we were and we need to get back there, or here's what's the challenge we have, and how do we how do we do that?
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:22.960
And we're and you know, we're afraid of competition, we're afraid of, you know, like our customers being upset, we're afraid of having to lay off people, whatever the case may be, there is this sense of this is my time in my life.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:35.039
And I if I can help you find a way to make that as valuable and as um successful in whatever means possible, then let me listen to what what you have to say so that because I don't have all the answers, no one does.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:47.679
If I can help you guide you to a lot of the answers, then or at least build the team or connect to the people that bring the right partners or find ways to, you know, try, fail, and learn and iterate, great.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:04.320
Uh collective spend way more time trying to be effective communicators and then forget about the the importance of listening.
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:04.800
Yeah.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:05.360
Right?
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.280
Without that good listening, you can't be an effective communicator.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:14.000
Um what's a leadership instinct you've had to unlearn?
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:17.360
I've had to unlearn.
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:19.119
I've got some good questions here.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:34.480
Um I would I want to re kind of twist that a little bit like I did with the Rio conversation.
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:47.760
It's less unlearned, but more continued to remind myself of, which is one, trust your team, um, and give people the space to fail and be supportive when that happens.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:56.559
I think it's just something that like, you know, when you are running your own company, you have clients, and you're kind of like, you know, we gotta get this right, perfection doesn't exist.
00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:05.840
And, you know, you have to allow yourself the space and allow your team and even hopefully even your clients, the grace and the graciousness to like the sit and work.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.960
How do we learn from this and try to find a way to make it better?
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:19.840
And that's something that I definitely didn't understand in the beginning of my career because I think the pressure of youth and the excitement and the sort of you know naivete of trying to do something and just being you know young.
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.559
And also the world's changed so much since then as well.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:28.400
Just allowed that kind of like you gotta get it right, or it's not gonna work and the clients are gonna go, you know, it's like at the end of the day.
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:30.960
But more graciousness, I think, in the world can be given.
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:33.840
I think we should have a little graciousness in the world as right now in general.
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:45.760
I definitely think when it comes to work and professionally, especially with teams, and especially with like, you know, as you're building a business, having that bit of you know, patience and graciousness when people maybe stumble.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:57.119
Because part of our job as leaders is to help us is to help everyone sort of manage their lives and manage the processes in ways that can unlock latent abilities within themselves be greater.
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:08.880
When I think back um at how convinced I was that I knew everything at the beginning of my career, and now I'm convinced of how little I actually know.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:12.159
It's really nice how much how I think about that the other day.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:18.800
It's like, yeah, I it's I I revel in the fact that there's so much I do not know, and I love the fact that I can there's so much more to learn.
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:36.559
I think that's one thing I notice about everyone that I've had the pleasure to be able to sit down like this with how strong the desire for knowledge and curiosity has been.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:44.079
It's a theme and and it's and it really differentiates how people approach life.
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:54.000
Um one of one thing I want to ask you is about creative teams and how do you keep them honest when the client's excited and the timeline is tight?
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:56.320
You say on it or honest?
00:39:57.920 --> 00:39:58.880
Honest, right?
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:04.960
How do you keep the creative team honest in what they're doing when the client's excited and the timeline's tight?
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:10.400
I mean, I think part of our job as leaders is to sort of act as guardians.
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:16.719
And you know, I think that the the creative team is only as good as the sort of operational team in many ways.
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:30.960
It's like if we can plan and give them as much space to create even when there's deadlines, um, it allows them to really, you know, I've always because I used to manage artists, bands, and DJs and used to be PJ.
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:42.159
And as an artist myself, I've always sort of built protections to, you know, let that golden goose lie its eggs in many ways and sort of give them the space to iterate and go through that.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:41:03.840
Um I I would say honesty, I would say honesty in terms I would push back on the word honesty and look more in terms of, you know, I would say more along the lines of how you allow create the creative teams to be a bit more um experience, experiential in many ways.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.079
Like how let them experiment a bit more.
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:13.599
You know, we there's the joke, and even if you've heard as well, you go to a client, you pitch three things, they always, you know, it's always the last one's usually the best.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:18.960
They usually go for one that's the worst, but you but you're always really happy with the best one, and you always show the best one last.
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:20.320
And I'm like, oh, we love this one.
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.599
Um, and I've just seen it happen.
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:23.360
We've all seen it happen so many, so many times.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:36.400
And it's like, you know, with that foundation of like allow the teams to be honest in their sense of like, we want to just try this and go a direction that maybe is a little bit outside of where the client wants.
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:41.599
Just to one, I think it's important to push your clients to see greater.
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.840
But then who I forgot who said it.
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.039
Oh, I think it was Henry Ford.
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:53.199
We asked people to make a better car, they would ask for like more horses along those lines, that old saying, like before he made the model team, they would ask for a faster horse.
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:59.760
Um, or I think it was also done down Rieland, you know, you have to give people what they want, you have to give them what they don't know what they want yet.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:05.440
I think that's a big part of what it means to be a creative is to see the future that maybe no one else can see.
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:16.400
And then our job is to help the clients or help the world recognize that and then connect to it if it's in the right, if it serves the the purpose and the mission of what the business wants to do.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:35.840
There's this um thread that that seems to be going through all the conversations here, no matter what the what the particular role the person has, but it's about defending an idea and protecting it as it goes through the gauntlet of revisions and approvals.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:44.559
And it's it's such an interesting construct that we we all have to fight to keep this good idea rather than feed the good idea to make it great.
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:49.840
It's uh but it's consistent across everyone that I've spoken with inside the podcast and outside.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:50.880
Every industry.
00:42:51.119 --> 00:43:00.239
Um you're currently working at the intersection of AI and creative industries.
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:07.920
What's the most honest thing that you can say right now about what that actually looks like in practice?
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:24.880
AI technology, all of these tools are unlocking so many different ways of imagining.
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.559
But I think we haven't even gotten to the crust of what it was of what it is.
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:43.039
And I think we're still sorting out who the winners and the losers will be, similar to you know, the dot-com everyone first Jeeves, all the search engines, until we got to the Titans that are now, even those Titans now are still like, oh, what?
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:47.760
How do we figure out like we gotta maintain this sense of like, you know, dominance?
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:49.519
How where is innovation coming from?
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:59.760
I think the ability to allow more people to create or at least feel give them the tools to create in the long run will be good for humanity if we can.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:17.039
And balance that with what it means to not be breedy when it comes to the capitalistic sort of desire to drive down costs without any inherent value in the sort of the company, the business.
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.519
Early in my career, I worked in the human resources and under the human resource department.
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:25.679
And I would learn very early that the humans are the most valuable resource of your business.
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:32.960
I mean, you know, it's the hardest ones to find, the hardest ones to replace, but they bring the joy and the daily sort of connection.
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:38.480
I think that one of the things this advancement in AI is given is this idea of like solo entrepreneur.
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:38.880
Great.
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:40.800
But like, do you want to be by yourself all the time?
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:41.519
I'm an artist.
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:42.000
I'm creative.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:43.039
I enjoy flowering.
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:44.159
I enjoy being part of a team.
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:48.000
I enjoy, you know, the same way we enjoy sports and community.
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:58.719
I think there's community and a camaraderie that comes with working with other people and other, and like these tools and systems can allow us to give us more time to be more creative, great.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:09.119
But if that is that, if if that if if the if it's at the expense of loneliness and the expense of solitude, is it really worth it at the end of the day?
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:13.599
Like I think there has to be a balance around what do I, what can these tools allow me to do?
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:15.199
How do I be more creative?
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:21.599
How can I, you know, advance or improve efficiency in my workflows, efficiency in my communication skills?
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.840
How can I learn and acquire new knowledge?
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.280
That's very exciting.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:36.639
But the idea of them sort of destroying jobs and destroying jobs lead to community collapse, lead to neighborhood collapse, leads to all these other things down the line that we're not talking about from just a societal shift.
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:46.400
What does that look like when so much power and control is in the hands of a few sort of companies or individuals and or computer systems that have no humanity?
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:55.679
I mean, I think it was Michael Polland recently was saying that like AI will never be able to create, ask what will it ever be able to create anything without being prompt to ask a question?
00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:02.239
It doesn't create, you know, it doesn't have a soul, it doesn't, it doesn't have senses, it doesn't feel and touch and taste and smell.
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:07.119
So it can explain to you what this might look like and give, but it can't create something.
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:21.840
It can't sit in uh sit outside in a space breathing and sense the air and then take a picture of that because the wind hit the back of their neck and turned their head and there's a and a bird's going this way, and it reminded them of when they were a child.
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:29.280
And I think as we look at all these tools, we need to remind ourselves of where is the line between efficiency and humanity.
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:33.920
Well said.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:39.840
Well, tough to transition out of that, man.
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:42.719
That's uh that's that's got a lot for me to unpack.
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.239
I'm definitely gonna be thinking about that for a while.
00:46:46.400 --> 00:47:04.000
Uh it it made me think, uh, and hopefully you take this as a compliment, but it made me think about the scene in Goodwill Hunting where Robin Williams is sitting next to Matt Damon and he kind of calls him out for describing all of these things that he's read, but he's never experienced them in real life, right?
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:12.159
So you you understand the theory and you can talk about it, but you don't know that moment, the experience.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:16.639
So um hopefully you take that as a compliment from one of my favorite movies.
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:17.679
Beautiful.
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:24.000
Um what's one idea you wish founders or CMOs would sit with a little longer before they move?
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:32.239
One idea I wish founders or CMOs would sit with before they move.
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:48.639
Are we doing this in service of our customers because we feel like it's right for them, or it's right for us, or right for both?
00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:56.239
That's a great moment to sit in.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:58.320
Alright, Willie, last question.
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.360
What would you do if you were not afraid?
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:08.000
I try to I ask myself that question quite often, actually, all throughout the course of my life.
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:14.880
Um one, I would probably question why why am I not afraid.
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:23.199
First of all, like why is this why is this like is this the this lack of fear, is this real or is am I just convincing myself that I'm not afraid?
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:42.880
So I think fear is a good there's a lot you can learn from emotions, and fear is a great one as a great teacher around what you are avoiding, what you are ignoring, and I think what you are um sometimes challenged to not want to do.
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:58.639
So I try to use fear as a spark to investigate deeper as to where I am holding myself back from on the sort of more philosophical level of what I what would I do if I was unafraid?
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:01.440
Anything and everything I wanted.
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:13.119
And I think that, you know, it's just like, you know, I I have we know people who have who are who have and experience a certain level of fearlessness when it comes to how they navigate the world.
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.920
And I think a lot of times, you know, we we look and say, wow, I can't believe that person did that.
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:24.800
And you recognize that it's not just fearlessness, it's also focus and dedication and consistency that comes along with it.
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:30.000
I think a lot of times fear stops our consistency and it stops our ability to focus.
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:38.320
I think the more you can sort of turn that down and recognize it and you know, restory what that fear is coming from, it using it as fuel to fire.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:52.320
My friend Dan Harris was on listening to this podcast recently, and he was talking about don't let your, don't um the concept pretty much is don't let your stress, don't let your stress go to waste.
00:49:52.400 --> 00:50:03.840
So when you're stressed about something or you're afraid of something, don't like that's a good time to write it down today and read it in a month to see where that was because why are you losing that that that that that anxiety?
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.639
Why are you losing that like that stress has a value?
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:12.559
It can really propel you to do something better, but it also gives you a point of reference to look back on and say, oh, right.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:16.639
I was stressed about this about a month ago, but today that seems like that's so far behind.
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:19.760
You know, at the end of the day, everything changes all the time.
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:22.159
The only thing that is permanent is change.
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:39.599
So being able to take your fear, take your stress, write it down, examine it, and then look at it in the future and look back at it as a point of reference, as a point of learning and a point of knowledge, I think is is a very powerful recent skill set that I've been so kind of connected to the last like year or two.
00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:50.880
And it's been quite great at restoring how we think about obstacles and think about challenges and think about our sort of how we navigate our lives.
00:50:52.880 --> 00:51:03.519
That writing it down and revisiting it gives it a completely different context and an ability to see the patterns and the situation in isol, no longer in isolation.
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:03.840
Right.
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:10.559
Because I tend to think about what is the stressor, and then I try to focus on the stressor, not everything else around it.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:11.519
Exactly.
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:15.199
Um Willy, we've done it.
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:22.320
That's uh that that's it for this episode of Inside the Collective, where we dig into the thinking behind how people work.
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:23.840
Willie, I want to say thank you.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:31.920
This conversation has been um one of my favorites, and I appreciate the the candor that you've brought to it and the and the wide-ranging um topics.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:41.360
So for those of you listening or watching at home, if it sparks something in you, share it with somebody who's building something, breaking something, or trying to figure out what comes next.
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:42.800
Thank you so much, Willie.
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:43.440
Thank you so much.
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:45.039
Brad, it's a pleasure to be here.
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:45.519
Great.
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:46.960
Thanks for the poignant questions.
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:48.159
I really appreciate it.
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:50.159
Likewise.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:50.960
Cheers.
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:51.920
Cheers.