What Happens When There Is Nowhere Left to Hide? with Scott Berman from Skycave Retreats

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Welcome to Inside Out Connections, where we explore the link between your skin, your gut, emotional health, and your deeper sense of self.
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I'm your host, Tracy Ann, a wellness coach exploring what it really means to reconnect from the inside out.
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What happens when there is nowhere left to hide?
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No phone, no emails, no conversations, no endless distractions, not even any light.
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My guest today is Scott Berman, founder of Sky Cave Retreats, and a passionate advocate for the transformative power of darkness.
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What fascinates me about Scott's work is that it seems to cut through so much of the noise of modern day life.
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In a world where we're constantly busy, connected, and stimulated.
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A darkness retreat offers something completely different: an opportunity to stop, to slow down, and to turn inward.
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But perhaps it's not the darkness that people fear.
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Perhaps it's what the darkness reveals.
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Today we're exploring what happens when all external distractions are removed, why people choose to spend time in complete darkness, and how this unique experience can lead to profound insight, healing, and self-connection.
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Scott, welcome.
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I am so excited to have you here today, and I'm fascinated to hear all about Sky Cave Retreats.
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Yeah.
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So before Sky Cave retreats, what was life looking like for you personally?
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Um well, I guess it matters how far back we go.
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Um there was a time in my early twenties where I started spending a lot of time alone out in nature, out in the wild, I'd spend three to six months solo out in the mountains in southern Baja in Mexico.
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And then also in Northern California.
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And there was I mean, it was kind of two different pulls in me.
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Uh I didn't see it that way at the time.
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One was a sincere thread of there's something more.
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That was kind of what what I was aware of and and more kind of what I thought I was primarily moving on.
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But then there was this other thread of um pretty much aversion to what was actually here.
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And we find, especially being with and accompanying so many people through the dark, that those tend to be coupled.
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There is this genuine movement and reaching for there must be more.
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And it can be coupled with what's here right now is not good enough.
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I don't like it, I want to fix it, change it, transform it, move it, whatever it may be.
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But that part of that aspect of it tends to get covered because it's certainly not a comfortable thing to really feel.
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Um, and so in that movement of there must be more, um, I'd gotten into meditation and various practices and spent a lot of time in solitude and discovered dark retreat in 2012.
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Uh, did my first one with my wife.
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And then in 2013, I went down to Baja and built a little small earthbag dome and went in the dark there for my first solo time.
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And then we landed here in southern Oregon and built our first dark retreat in 2018 and started using it in 2020.
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Fascinating.
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And so when that question came to you, like you said, there's got to be something more.
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How old were you at the time, if you don't mind me asking?
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I mean, the first time was actually the first time I took mushrooms, which I might have been 16.
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So that was yeah, um almost 30 years ago.
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Yeah, opened up a different doorway, so to speak.
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Yeah, that was the first time of like, whoa, that was more like there is something more.
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It was less of a question and more of a like there is something more.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I was young and like I think the there wasn't much access for me at the time of psychedelics being held in any kind of intentional container.
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So it was just kind of more of a free-for-all with myself and my friends.
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And so it was a different kind of you know, experience when something's not held in a way where someone can support someone's sense of safety and kind of you know, nurture that them coming into what else may be here.
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Um, but there were a couple windows through my early explorations with psychedelics of like, oh, there is more.
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And then there was a reaching for how to get there.
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Um I'd say and then I I'd say that was probably primarily my orientation for like the next 20 years.
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I got pretty good at singing myself into ecstatic bliss and spending most of my days in that.
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I'd say that was what was driving me for probably about 20 years and a lot of my time in solitude.
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And then I'd say over the last four years, as the work here with Dark Retreats has really shifted, which we'll kind of get into.
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There was the first two years here, which it was just me.
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And then four years ago, Adrian, my other teammate, and really the primary architect of like how we hold things here, how we orient with people, uh, what we've come to kind of understand and see as we've had over 700 people come through here.
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It's really started to change me as I could start to see some of the things in myself that I couldn't see.
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Different defenses, strategies, ways of managing my experience, different ways that I saw how I took spirituality as a way of shifting and changing and managing my experience as opposed to moving closer to my natural, authentic, kind of spontaneously emerging experience.
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I love that.
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That makes sense.
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Yeah.
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We're quite clever in ways that we can duck and weave sitting with ourselves and the big emotions that come up, right?
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Totally.
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On that note that you shared, like something that tends to surprise people, and it certainly surprised myself, and it's been a learning curve as we've seen it over and over again, is typically spiritually oriented people who have a lot of history in spirituality, who have a lot of their sense of worth and meaning in spirituality, like they tend to more often than not have a harder time in the dark than people who don't have that much weight of spirituality in their in their personality, in how they hold themselves.
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Um and a lot of people tend to be like, whoa, like, why would that be?
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And what's happening there?
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And it's not to say, it's not all the time, but it it tends to be that, and I I fit into that category as well.
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And so it tends to be that there's a lot more filters of how we're supposed to be.
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We all have our cultural filters of how we're supposed to be, what we've grown up with, what culture teaches us, like for a man, maybe showing sadness and fear is typically not really a welcomed thing in our culture.
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And showing fear as a man certainly tends not to be good for survival because one's like vulnerable and exposed.
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And so, you know, as a woman, there's anger, and then there's whatever else we grew up with in our family, in our peer group, in our culture.
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And then bring in spirituality, which brings in a whole nother lens of maybe how we romanticize spirituality, how we idealize spirituality.
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Most people didn't get into spirituality to feel their discomfort more.
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They got into it to transcend, to awaken, to move beyond discomfort, to move beyond fear, to move beyond sadness, to move into bliss and ecstasy.
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And when that is how spirituality is organized, if it is in somebody, then there's almost a turning away from what may spontaneously or naturally be here in the backdrop that doesn't align with our ideas of how we should be or how we want to be within a spiritual context.
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And so there's that.
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And people with lots of spiritual techniques have developed very nuanced and sophisticated strategies for managing their experience.
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We can breathe through, we can like do a certain kind of practice, we can control our experience and our awareness and our focus by adding, overlaying.
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And not that there's anything wrong with any of that.
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It's just an interesting thing to kind of explore that there are more sophisticated nuanced techniques for holding ourselves together and moving through discomfort as opposed to, and not that this is better, but just as an alternative of not doing that and having oneself be totally vulnerable and exposed in the discomfort and allowing our system to digest it without us, through our ideas of how we should be, trying to fix and change it.
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For sure.
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And that makes absolute sense to me.
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And there are just so many different ways to get there.
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But I think the key point is self-awareness, is understanding all those blocks and strategies that we have.
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And I spoke about it on the podcast before I had Tom Cronin on, who's a meditation teacher, delightful man, love what he does.
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He's a Vedic teacher, and it's fantastic for people to meditate.
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And I love all that.
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But I raised something on the podcast about how my mother leading up to her death was meditating more than she was awake.
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She suicided when I was younger.
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So that was her way of probably checking out from the world a little rather than dealing with what was actually going on.
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She was using meditation as an avoidance, I guess, to everyday life.
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So that just resonated with me in that way.
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Yeah, and there are many different forms of meditation.
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There's many different types of meditation, right?
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So that obviously it has its different applications and different situations and all the different things.
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It's just one unique thing that we've noticed, um, that it can add more filters around how we should be, what we should do.
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And it can add more sophisticated strategies and defenses and ways of managing our experience.
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We find that if somebody has a real receptivity, like they've come with the blank slate, the classic like zen mind, beginner's mind, there's an openness, there's a willingness to be with what's here.
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And they don't have many strategies or techniques from breath work or meditation or whatever.
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When they go into the dark, they come undone a lot more quickly and a lot more easily.
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And then in the coming undone, there's an actual meeting what's here, as opposed to being in our strategies and defenses and our movement to achieve spirituality or overcome sadness or fear, or there's just uh an intimate meeting.
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It's more of a being in a relational field with what's here and not in our kind of movement towards how we think we should be or want to be, which is uncomfortable.
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Yeah.
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And it's letting go of those rules and rigidness, right?
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Yeah, and that's you know, that's difficult.
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I mean, that's a whole nother amazing thread to explore.
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So our our typical I guess one thing that I'd say is where someone does a dark retreat completely shapes their experience.
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Like all places are not created equal.
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Like it's more than just going into the dark.
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And it like how the container's held, the the type of support that's provided completely shapes the type of experience that someone has.
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And so it's not like somebody hears about a dark retreat or they see a lot of different experiences that someone's having at maybe one place and then go somewhere else thinking they'll have maybe a similar experience.
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Because the way that the container's held, the way that it's presented, it completely shapes someone's experience.
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And we could kind of touch on some of that.
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For example, most people do not enjoy a dark retreat, just to be completely frank.
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And as I see more and more dark retreat places pop up, they tend to come more in this realm, whether they're more in a plant medicine thread or a spirituality thread, but they're presented as this helps reset your nervous system.
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It's really relaxing, it feels like a dark womb, like all these really juicy, beautiful things.
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In our experience, that's just not true.
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It is not any like the way we relate to the dark and what we've seen is the dark is a pressure.
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It creates pressure in your system.
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It stimulates your survivor, your survival patterns, it stimulates your defenses, your safety mechanisms, all the things you do that you do when you're under pressure.
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But since a lot like our personality is almost like our survival pattern and the way that we manage our experience, so when people are in there, it can tend to go unnoticed unless the way the container's held and the way that the support is with you, it kind of supports you in seeing and noticing that.
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Otherwise, if somebody says, Tracy Ann, come to our retreat and it's going to be relaxing and reset your nervous system and it's going to be like a womb and it's going to be this beautiful, juicy experience.
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And you go, and that's not what's happening for you, but like in the backdrop of you, you feel like it should be, and the support is there with you, kind of being like, this is, I mean, unconsciously, this is the type of experience you should be having.
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And for them, which happens with all facilitators, right?
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There's a sense of meaning and worth in the facilitator for you to have a certain kind of experience because that makes me feel like I'm doing good work.
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And so all of a sudden, unconsciously, you bury all the negative, hard feelings that you're having.
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And there's a way in which you present in a positive way.
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And so to take that with how what we discovered over the first two years here, the first two years was just me.
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All I had was my experience, my very like at the time, kind of more male-oriented spirituality.
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There was an achieving spirituality, there was a getting somewhere, there was a fixing and changing our experience to be the most ideal, beautiful version of ourselves, which kind of overlays the fact that we're actually not happy with where we're at and just meeting that.
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And so in those first two years, if if you asked me, do people experience fear, I would have said no.
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You said, What is it like?
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I would have said, Everyone's having an amazing, positive, transformational experience.
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That's what I wanted people to have.
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That's what, that's the way it was presented, and that's the feedback we were getting.
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And every single person was saying that.
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After those two years, Adrienne, who is a friend of 15 years, who is comes more from a somatic background and a lot of her own kind of deeply rested inner work and is also incredibly perceptive.
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She would have sessions with people before and after their dark retreat.
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And when someone would emerge and have their session, I would share with her a little bit, like there was so much emotion, they were so happy, and all these things.
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Person after person, she would come back and share.
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Like this person was in fight, flight, or freeze.
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Like their entire nervous system had so much charge, they were super activated.
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And it was person after person after person, where I was like, whoa, I'm totally missing something.
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And Adrian was like, I don't think dark retreat is good for people.
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And she was in that for probably about a year.
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She stayed with it because she was like, I'm having incredible access into people because of how cracked open they are.
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And we're able to really traverse so much that we wouldn't normally be able to.
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And I don't think dark retreat's good for people.
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Over that year, she started to map out more what's actually happening for people.
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Like when we're not trying to have people have this kind of romanticized spiritual experience, what's actually happening in their nervous system?
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And so we began to map out more.
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Adrian began to map out more the fight, flight, and freeze, how we could recognize it, how we could support people and them recognizing it.
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And so we began to evolve kind of a map of what was happening on some level and how to how we orient and support people here now.
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And so that's kind of changed, and we've seen a real evolution in the type of experience people are having and people not leaving with built-up charge and there being more of a congruence of what I'm noticing, what they're noticing, what Adrian's no, like there's a more coherent kind of um thread that gets woven in there.
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And there's so much more that we can get into of just the different things that we've noticed over the years and how the darkness is ultimately registers as a threat in our nervous system.
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Now, those things I said, like that it's regulating and that like it can be healing and that it's soothing for the nervous system, like and that it's a dark womb, like those things can be true, but they're not necessarily true across the board.
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And if somebody goes into the dark for maybe a few hours, that may be their experience.
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But when somebody goes in for more than a day, there's a different kind of pressure that comes and it's not necessarily soothing.
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And but unconsciously, we all suppress that because when somebody's committed to a certain amount of time in the nervous system, in the background of the psyche, to admit I'm uncomfortable, I don't like this, and I have to be in here for a couple more days is incredibly petrifying for the for our organism.
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So it gets buried.
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So it gets buried, and most people are not in contact with how incredibly uncomfortable they are in the dark.
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And so that tends to be one of our primary orientations with people, is normalizing it and really inviting people into the conflict that is inherently in their system from the pressure, overwhelm, discomfort, disorientation, loneliness that comes with being in the dark.
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Because I would imagine being in the dark, depending, like you said, how long you are there for, whether it's a day or a few days, your mind would be quite noisy initially, right?
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Just there'd be a lot of chatter going on in your mind.
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It'd be I'd imagine the volume would be turned up quite loud.
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Yeah, for most people.
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I mean, there is, you know, as there is a period of time for let's say 60% of the people where being in the dark is inherently relaxing.
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And that's when the melatonin comes on.
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So in the beginning, for maybe 60% of the people, a little bit more than half, there's a big dump in the brain of melatonin.
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And so people do relax, they rest, they sleep a lot, like it genuinely feels relaxing.
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Not for everyone, for a little bit more than half of the people.
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But come, and it's different for everyone that they may have that, they may have an amazing night's sleep, or that melatonin, everyone's different, may go on through the first half of the day.
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For some people, if they're lucky enough, the melatonin goes through the entire first day.
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But at a certain point, that melatonin wears off and the holy shit kind of comes on.
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So, like, yeah, it can be like some of those the ways that some dark retreat places pitch all these positive things.
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It can be true that first day for some people.
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But go once it goes on, it's just not really the case.
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And so then the orientation becomes everything.
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Like just being in the dark is not really a nurturing experience.
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Our orientation is what can make it a nurturing experience and what can bring kind of a very simple fundamental change.
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So, Scott, talk me through the process.
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So somebody comes to you for the first time to sign up for a retreat.
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What does it look like?
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Um so I'd say Before I get into it, because it is always evolving and we're kind of at the cusp of like another big step.
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As right now we're in Southern Oregon and we have three caves here.
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We are in the process of expanding and building another center in Asheville, North Carolina, where we'll have 10 caves and more of a group facilitation space and really get to take the next step in what we've seen and what's evolved over the last six years and kind of moving it into form in a new way.
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And so in that, there'll be more of a prep course and a lot more preparation.
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But like right now, when somebody signs up about a couple of weeks before they come, there are some talks that they get from Adrian that really distills down at the core of it, like what we've learned over the years.
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Like it really helps break down the fight, flight, and freeze so that people can begin to be able to notice themselves when they've gone into it.
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It normalizes the threat that people feel when they go in the dark.
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It normalizes kind of what the nervous system does when it's in the dark.
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It goes over some of the brain chemistry shifts that we notice and different fundamental orientations that we have found to be supportive and we have found to be themes and threads that are woven through most people's time in the dark.
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And then when somebody arrives, there's 24 hours for them to settle into the space before they go into the dark.
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And they also have a session, a one-on-one session with Adrian that really starts to meet them where they're at and support them in going in.
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It supports them in them starting to see some of their patterning so that they can recognize it.
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It starts to lay the groundwork for what would be new.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.359
You know, and that's it's different for each person.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:07.920
Like somebody, their patterning might be that they're constantly trying to fix and change their self and they're stuck more in this healing loop of like what's wrong with them.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:19.119
And so for that person, it may be them shifting to finding, discovering, connecting with parts in their body that are actually comfortable, relaxed, or even just neutral.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:24.640
And in that, they start to create a relationship with parts of them that don't need to be fixed or changed.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:31.599
And then that can start to have their system digest those parts that were contracted because they're starting to relax.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:36.160
For someone else, they may have so many positivity filters.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.119
And there's any negativity, it's covered with positivity and everything's fine and I'm doing great.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:25:05.519
And for that person, it might be walking them into the conflict and having like, it would more be like supporting them in, well, one, normalizing it so they don't feel like there's anything wrong with them of where they are maybe in conflict or contracted, and then letting that contraction press into them and squeeze them without them trying to breathe through it and change it.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:13.920
That would bring them into a totally new way of being and it would allow their system to be spontaneous and uncontrolled.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:20.000
And so for each person, for one person, it might be that they're numb and they don't have contact with their body.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:31.519
And so for the first time ever, they may discover that they're numb and they're just in that numbness or they're emotionally numb or they're not available to anger or fear or the way that they hold in the energy.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:38.000
And so for them to express anger, but someone else may habitually move in anger as a defense from their weakness.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.960
And so for that person, it may be coming into the vulnerability.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:52.480
So each person we meet where they're at, and then there's this exploration of getting familiar with kind of the survival patterns we have, and then new ways of orienting.
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:57.119
And so after that So there's no, there's there's no ultimate goal.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:58.160
That's great.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:58.640
Yeah.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:00.640
There is no ultimate goal.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.799
There is no universal benefit of going into the dark.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.720
There's actually, I'd say, really no benefit of going into the dark.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:10.640
It's all in the orientation.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:27.440
It's like it's actually, I'd say, more detrimental to go in the dark because of how stimulating and aggravating it is for the nervous system, unless you're in a container with ideally people who understand what's happening at a nervous system level.
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.559
They're not trying to sell you the benefits of dark retreat.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.519
They're not telling you this is an amazing, beautiful experience.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.880
They're not needing you to have a beautiful, amazing experience.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.440
And um, curiosity.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:44.640
It's curiosity, it's an exploration, and they actually really understand what's happening.
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:49.039
Most people feel trapped when they go in the dark.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.200
Like that is a very common theme.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.640
And most people I feel like women and men they differ.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:03.279
I'd imagine sort of mothers who tend to find it hard to relax because we're so busy doing everything for everyone else 100% of the time.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:09.119
Is there a bit of a pattern, do you see, with with women and men or mothers in particular?
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:11.039
Yeah, I mean, there is.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:13.200
We live in a patriarchal culture.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:21.759
So women also have like uh when it comes to survival, the masculine takes, you know, takes the cake, if you will.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:30.799
And so there is this like, and the dark brings on a survival response so it can bring on those kind of more.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:34.960
I mean, it matters how somebody's pattern and what their survival pattern is.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.519
I would say that naturally women have more access to nurture.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:46.319
And nurture is the thing that carries someone through the dark.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:50.319
Nurture is the thing that allows our system to self-digest.
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:52.960
It's the thing that allows us to be receptive.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.920
It's the thing that allows us to put control down because of the connectivity that comes.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:08.000
And then our system can process on its own without us thinking we know what's best because this is wrong to feel, and I'm supposed to feel this way.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.720
So naturally, women have more access to nurture.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:20.400
There maybe tends to be for women more access to receptivity, to listening, to connectivity that is more of like simple and relational.
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:31.519
So I would say the feminine, because we live in a patriarchal culture, and so there are plenty like across the board who carry more masculine energy, and there are men who carry more feminine energy.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:37.680
So I'd say more like the feminine really finds their way in the dark.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:46.720
Like it is through softening, through listening, through attuning, through receiving, through gentleness, through nurture that one finds their way.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.480
It is not the hero's journey.
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:50.400
It is not for the spiritual warrior.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:04.480
Um, because those things are big and to overcome and conquer, and all of a sudden one's controlling how incredibly uncomfortable, weak, vulnerable, exposed that one is that's it.
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:05.519
Going into the subject.
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:16.880
And so after that session with Adrian, someone that evening goes into the dark, people take time to get oriented in the space.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:28.960
And then right now, then we're exploring with different kinds of programs and ways of or holding the container, which we'll get into when we get into Asheville.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:34.559
But for now, and the way that it's been the last few years is three days, four nights in the dark.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:41.359
And then somebody emerges, they have another session with Adrian, and then there's 24 hours to kind of integrate.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:51.279
In that session with Adrian, there's the opportunity, like for many people, there's still a lot of unprocessed charge in the body that people have no ideas in there.
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.279
And so part of that comes out in the session.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:02.720
There's also a drawing out of maybe what someone's some insights that people have come into, and then really like discovering them more in the body and embodying those.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:12.240
I mean, one amazing example of, I guess this dovetails back in, of people feel trapped in the dark.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.839
Even though the door's not locked, we spend a lot of time de-shaming, inviting people to take a pause.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.200
We do not encourage people to stay in the dark the whole time.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:29.200
We encourage people to let nurture lead, to listen to their body, to not just stay in the dark because you think it's best.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.799
That's going to give you the best experience, that's the best thing to do.
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.200
We spend a lot of time doing that.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:47.759
And even still, a majority of people feel trapped in there because we've all been programmed from survival that failing does not lead to anything good.
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:52.000
And so when somebody's come to do a dark retreat, stepping out of the dark feels like failure.
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.359
And so all of our filters come up that that's not good.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.119
We're not going to get the right experience.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:03.279
And then so we override our system that says, I'm overwhelmed, I can't be with this anymore.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.680
And then people go into an enduring, and there's a background sense of I'm trapped.
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:15.839
And there was somebody here some months ago, and I went up to I'm up there every morning and evening with checking in.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.240
And I was asking questions.
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:37.119
And from the sometimes just the way people say hello, once I've gotten to know them, just that's enough to really sense into if someone's genuinely relaxed, open, and connective in the space, or if they're more in their defenses and held together and getting by.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:40.720
And so my sense was he was getting by.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.240
But he was like, I'm good, everything's fine.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:53.279
And I asked, and we really like there's a lot of different questions that really support people in self-reflecting and feeling in and self-attuning.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:58.559
As we got into it more, he was able to land in, well, actually, I'm really bored.
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:04.160
What happens when people are bored is they've typically gone numb.
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:12.160
And they've there's not there's no engagement with their body, certainly not the space, but there's like a shutdown.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.920
It's a complete shutdown.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.960
It's very common.
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:19.839
And that again, like it, it's very relaxing.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.400
It can be because the whole system shut down.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:38.640
So people can, we've had people go through their whole time and they've gone numb and they've been relaxed, but there's ways that we can begin to explore with them with all the sudden, it's almost like a disconnect from themselves rather than being connected.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:39.599
Totally.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:51.440
And if you have a well-attuned support, that's not like that's again where it becomes like because a facilitator could come up and somebody's like, I'm calm and it's great, and they're just like, that's great.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:53.359
Positive experiences are the best.
00:32:53.599 --> 00:33:05.119
But like if there's a real exploration and one's willing to really land in, I don't know if dark retreats are good for people, then there's a real different way that someone's going to explore.
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:21.039
And so for this person, I asked a bunch of different questions that started to have him feel and explore and orient in different ways to where I then invited him, like, hey, you don't need to stay in here.
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:23.519
You can come out and take a break if you want.
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.920
And he was like, Okay, I'm coming out.
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:32.480
Like right away, he was able to, and so he came out and he started crying right when he came out.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:38.960
And after a few minutes, he looked at me and he said, Scott, I told you that I was okay.
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:43.440
And I really believed that I was okay, but I wasn't.
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:47.599
And that is very common.
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:48.960
Yeah.
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.279
The way that we're held together.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:54.880
Your Instagram is what drew me in.
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.079
This is how I I I came to your work originally.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:04.720
It is just so powerful to watch a combination of the music.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:14.960
Music always gets me going, but just seeing everyone in their most vulnerable raw state when they come out of the cave.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:19.360
Are these people in for like a day, three days, a few hours?
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:27.039
Like it's a mixed group of it's it's um, you know, in our early days it was a free-for-all because we had no idea what we were doing.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.559
We had people come from 10, 20, 30, 40 days.
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:40.800
After we witnessed enough cycles of people coming through, we found that there's a real, like, in our experience, the dark is a pressure.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:46.159
Like that is primarily and inherently like one of the main things that we notice.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.880
And what compounds that pressure is the amount of time people are in the dark.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.840
Longer is 100% not deeper.
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:55.360
It's usually less deep.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:04.079
There's a sweet spot for everyone, but the psyche in the dark for really long periods of time will totally just shut down.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:09.519
And so right now, we do three days, four nights in the dark.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:11.679
Now, people don't always stay in the whole time.
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:13.199
There are people who weave in and out.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:14.960
There's people who come out and see the stars.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:23.199
Like there's a real invitation to let your body lead, not your mind lead, not what you think you should do or what you think is best.
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:27.679
It's really like starting to attune to what your body wants.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:31.760
And then there's more nurture, receptivity, connectivity.
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:39.760
And then what happens is one, there's a big difference between I should be in the dark, two, I want to be in the dark.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:49.679
And when someone genuinely wants to be in the dark and they're attuned with their body, there's nurture and connectivity and intimacy.
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:57.280
One can actually open and there's a felt sense of safety, like a genuine felt sense of safety in the body.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:03.199
One can then open to the dark and be in a relational field with the dark.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:16.159
And once somebody's in a relational field with the dark and in tune with their body, there's this bridge to actually feeling the infinite, to feeling the vastness, to feeling eternity.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.639
It's like surrendering to the process.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:26.960
And I often say that when we're sick or or we get a cold or the flu or something's happening, and it's like, oh, I've got so much to do.
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:33.760
There's so much on my plate, and and then we start to fight and we have all this resistance to what's going on.
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:42.239
But if you just surrender to the process and and invite and allow, it just becomes an an easier transition.
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:43.199
Totally.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:49.679
I mean, and you know, obviously easier said than done when we're like when we're under pressure.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.760
But it changes, it changes something when you allow yourself.
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:54.800
Definitely.
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:55.360
Yeah.
00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:03.199
Which is, you know, it's it's hard because when we're under pressure, our impulse is to relieve the pressure.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:10.320
And and but to allow the pressure, it sometimes gets louder and bigger.
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:14.559
Part of the intuition is to not allow when we're under pressure.
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:22.960
And so that's like there's a really interesting alchemy that the dark offers is it creates in our nervous system a sense of threat.
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:28.079
It creates a sense of pressure, but we're not under a real threat.
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.960
And so it really is this interesting opportunity.
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:43.039
Like the dark reveals, it exposes the backdrop of us, like the survival patterns, the compulsions, like all of it can come to the surface.
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:47.519
That is how we hold the container here and what we invite people into.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:55.679
Because in the world, when we're under threat or there's an emergency, or we're under a lot of pressure, we usually need to push forward.
00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:06.719
And like some of us get bigger, some of us get smaller, some of us run, some of us fight, some of us free, we all do different things when we're under pressure, when there's an emergency, but we got to move.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:20.159
And so the unique invitation, at least here with us in the dark, is what happens when you're under pressure, when the survival patterns come on, when your nervous system feels threatened, but there's not a real threat.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:30.159
And you have the time and space to slow down and just like, whoa, what is happening in my body, in my nervous system, in my mind?
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:35.039
And what is like these are my habitual compulsions?
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:42.639
And since there's not a real threat, I can actually be with this sense of threat and allow it.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:51.440
But it's hard, it's not intuitive because when we're exposed in that, we feel incredibly vulnerable.
00:38:54.079 --> 00:39:07.119
I wanted to touch on intuition because I would imagine just in our busy modern day life of technology, screens, emails, constant beeps, reminders, we're always tuned in.
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:11.760
And I think many of us are not in touch with our intuition.
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:18.079
But I would imagine doing these retreats, your intuition will become more heightened.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:20.960
It's not a promise I'd make.
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.320
I'd say usually less likely than so.
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:34.239
Um I'd say it can happen, but what's what's more likely to happen is landing in your survival patterns.
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.119
And that's going to feel intuitive.
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:45.440
Like when we're under threat, it's not real intuition, it's our reflexive nature to protect ourselves.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.920
And but it feels like intuitive because it makes sense, it's survival.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:55.440
And so when we're in the dark, there is this background threat.
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:57.039
And again, it it varies.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:07.920
Like when I say that, we've had tons of people come here and it's very clear that they are incredibly uncomfortable, severely dysregulated, they have a lot of charge.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:17.119
Like the way they're talking, you I feel like I'm being like blown back to the wall because there's so much aggression and they don't feel aggressive though.
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:23.440
I mean, we've all been with people who, if we asked them, they'd say they're relaxed, but they're like yelling and clearly aggressive.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:24.400
Yeah.
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.159
That is what happens in the dark all the time.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:30.960
And it's overlaid with all these things.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:50.559
And I mean, there was somebody recently, and it's a conversation I've had with so many people where I'm the best I can asking questions and supporting them and them coming into contact with what's happening in their body, because you can feel the aggression or the fear or the survival that's there.
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:55.360
And it's it's been said many times, well, but I'm not in a panic.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:56.159
I'm fine.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:09.199
And it's like, well, panic would be a really not a really uh functional response to have when you are kind of trapped in the dark because your system would rev so high if you were panicking.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:11.840
And so usually the system shuts down.
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:14.960
And so it's not that people are in a panic.
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:20.960
Like when I do talk about the threat and the overwhelm and the pressure, it doesn't mean people are in a panic.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:26.800
It's just that there is this pressure, and then we all do what we do when we're in there.
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:39.360
And so, in terms of the intuition, the reflexive movement is to protect ourselves and it feels intuitive because it feels like survival and it's keeping us from what's uncomfortable.
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:45.360
It's not intuitive to allow our chest to be squeezed.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:51.760
It's not intuitive to allow the gripping in our belly to grip us without trying to breathe through it and change it.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:42:03.039
But once someone really gets in touch with what's happening in their body and uh and genuinely allows it, those threat responses do unwind.
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:07.920
Somebody is not necessarily in a survival pattern the entire time they're in the dark.
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:15.440
As someone really attunes to their body and discovers a felt sense of safety, there is an unwinding.
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:20.800
The organism does can begin to feel safe in the dark.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:27.440
And then the true intuition can come online because we're not in a survival pattern.
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:28.320
Yeah.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:29.920
If that makes sense.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:31.599
Yeah, it does.
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:53.679
Um we've seen many folks come through who are numb and don't have much access, and they could do dark retreat after dark retreat, and they go in, their system goes numb and flat, and they like that, or they're able to overlay lots of fun things on top of it, but there's not a genuine receptive, vulnerable opening.
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.519
And they could go in many times.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:01.760
Like the amount of time and length someone goes into the dark doesn't necessarily equal much.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:09.039
It doesn't, in in our experience and what we've seen, it doesn't matter how many times someone's gone in the dark, it doesn't matter the length of days.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:25.760
Like I have seen people go into the dark for one day here and have the most life-changing, profound experience than someone who's been in for 40 days or someone who's done 15 dark retreats because somebody can go in and stay in their survival pattern the entire time and not realize it.
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:31.599
So it's it's really it's the quality and not the quantity, right?
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:32.480
Yeah.
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:41.679
And so do people eat when they're in there or is it a fasted state, or are you uh are people fueling when they're in these retreats in the cage?
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.480
Yeah.
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:44.639
So we don't let people fast.
00:43:44.800 --> 00:44:03.679
What we've seen over the years is fasting tends it has its benefits clearly, but in the dark, fasting can tend to dissociate someone from their body because you're denying the basic nourishment of Tending to and caring for your body.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:17.280
I mean, obviously it has its benefits, but in this container where you're stripped where you're stripped of everything, and nurture is kind of the doorway to tend to your body, naturally we're going to feed it.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:23.039
And so, um, I mean, if people want to eat a little bit, that's fine.
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:33.119
But like once people really step into the container and how we hold it, and that sense of nurture is really what we invite, people do eat warm food.
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:34.880
It's not vegan or vegetarian.
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:40.960
If somebody wants meat, it's like whatever is comfortable and nurtureful for you, that's where we meet you.
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:42.960
I love that.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:54.559
So it's got a huge philosophy behind work and this podcast is self-reconnection and exploring the different modalities that can help guide ourselves back to ourselves.
00:44:54.800 --> 00:45:04.079
So, what fascinates me about your work is that it seems to cut through and bypass so many external layers.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:08.159
So there is nowhere else to go but inward.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:16.320
Do you feel darkness retreats accelerate that self-awareness more so than other modalities?
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:19.519
Again, I I guess I'd say it can.
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:51.840
A dark retreat, for most people, if they just went in solo on their own or they went in a place where it was presented in all these different ways that it could be presented, it could just create an incredible amount of built-up charge and survival patterns in somebody's system.
00:45:52.239 --> 00:46:00.239
Um, unless the people who are holding it have a sense of what's happened for the average person's nervous system when they go in.
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:05.119
So I think it can create an incredible amount of self-awareness.
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:25.199
It can have people really understand what their system does under pressure, what their nervous system does under pressure and under threat, what happens when they let that in, and they're able to genuinely allow their system to be in that way, since there's no need to act.
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:31.199
There's not a real threat, which is the uniqueness of, I think, of the dark retreat.
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.679
And then from that, there is a discovery of what else is here.
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:44.239
And there can be so much uh depth and insight and intuition and like awareness in that.
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:52.880
But again, I think it's it's primarily rooted in the orientation coupled with going into the dark.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:47:02.800
But inherently, the dark, I'd say, is more or less if someone's going in for longer than a day, the dark is more inherently stimulating than anything else.
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:03.760
Yeah.
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:04.960
Interesting.
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.880
So who is the person that comes to see you?
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.159
Are they burnt-out professionals?
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:17.440
Is it a mixed bag of different people seeking a different modality?
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:20.559
Like who is your client that comes to you?
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:22.800
Yeah, I'd say it's a mixed bag.
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:38.079
I'd say a lot of it has had to do with the way that we've crafted the experience and the way that we present it because we have steered clear of like trying to present it in any spiritual kind of way, of even talking about the benefits.
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:40.800
I mean, clearly we're like, is a dark retreat good for people?
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:42.400
That depends on the orientation.
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:46.239
And so it brings people with burnout, people who want to unplug.
00:47:46.400 --> 00:48:01.920
It brings the spiritual seekers, it brings the psychonauts, it brings the uh people who saw the real on Instagram and they've never meditated, they've never done breath work, never done plant medicine, they've never done therapy, and they're just like, I want that.
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.800
Like, I don't know what those people have, but like I want that.
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:06.639
And so it's a whole range.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:11.440
Uh, people who are like, I don't like meditating, people who are just getting into health and wellness.
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:23.519
So it's a whole span, which is amazing because it it also gives us this wide breadth of humans that have so many different backgrounds, intentions, expectations.
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:30.320
Um, I mean, in my early days, it was really because of what I came out of.
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:39.840
Like I thought Dark Retreat was just for more advanced meditators and people who had spent a lot of time and it was like a big step in that.
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.840
Um, I feel very differently now.
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:55.920
I actually um because I found that people who come in that actually tend to have more filters and a little bit more challenge in genuinely surrendering and opening.
00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:11.360
And so it's been delightful and it's totally flipped my idea of spirituality on its head when I've witnessed tons of people come through here who are like, I don't even like meditating.
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:24.960
They've never been, they're not on a spiritual mission, and they've had the most they've gone into the deepest states of like suspended in stillness and bliss for hours.
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:28.159
No meditation practice, never meditated a day.
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:30.800
There was one guy who came straight off of Wall Street.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:33.519
He was one who's like, I don't even like meditating.
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:37.199
The idea of it's not interesting, I'm not into plant medicine, breath work.
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:46.880
And he went in and he was in tears in the second day from the depth of the tenderness and stillness that he dropped into without anything.
00:49:47.039 --> 00:50:01.679
It was just, he was incredibly receptive and was able to really take us to heart and really able to at that point, just some simple pointings with people, kind of like, have you ever looked just a little bit that way?
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:19.760
And with somebody who's undefended and they're able to turn and look and willing to admit the fear and the vulnerability and go into it, then there's there's so much incredible, delicate kind of magic on the other side.
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:26.320
Because if you think of talk therapy, while there is a time and a place for talk therapy, it's amazing.
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:27.199
I've done it.
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.039
We do have those filters out.
00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:34.000
We filter what we say, how much information we're going to give, how vulnerable we're going to get.
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:36.320
You know, we're just sort of letting little bits out.
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:39.599
It depends on how safe we feel, who the therapist is.
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:45.920
But to me, this sounds really interesting because you're with yourself the whole time.
00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:48.400
So there is a trust in that.
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:52.480
And for some people, it's really hard to trust themselves, right?
00:50:52.880 --> 00:51:06.320
So I guess that's part of the journey is learning to trust yourself and connect rather than seeking somebody else to guide you.
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:16.880
I know you're offering some type of guidance, but in terms of a traditional therapy session, it it so it just sounds to me like a beautiful way to connect with yourself.
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:18.719
Yeah, totally.
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:20.159
It can be.
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:32.320
And you know, there is the um there's the initial discovering of how incredibly uncomfortable we actually are when everything's taken away.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:43.119
And then you know, with I think the support comes in, I mean, for many ways, co-regulation as humans like is essential.
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:47.760
Um and we all can't see what we can't see.
00:51:48.079 --> 00:52:06.480
And so someone can just point, and if we're really willing to like lay down how we roll and look a little newly, there's like all of a sudden a whole new vista can open up and we can start to explore in new ways.
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:14.559
And um yeah, there's and in terms of of psychedelics, I mean, here in Australia, it it's not really a thing.
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:16.000
It's not legal in Australia.
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:20.000
I mean, you can, but it's a a costly experience if you want to do it.
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:31.199
But um I would imagine the Sky Cave retreats are more appealing for people that are a bit tentative about going down the psychedelic pathway.
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:32.159
Yeah.
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.360
I mean, we've we've had, I'd say that's a range too.
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:40.480
You know, we have lots of people who have never done psychedelics and they're like, I'm not interested.
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:45.440
We have people who are like, I'm considering psychedelics, but I was interested in doing this first.
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:49.920
People who are like, I did a lot of psychedelics and I'm no longer into them.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:54.639
And then people who are like, psychedelics is my jam and I'm trying this too.
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:56.800
And so there's the full range.
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.960
You know, I'd say this is incredibly different than psychedelics.
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:18.719
Um it can be, I say this lightly, but it can be very difficult for people who are deep into psychedelics because psychedelics give a very big, powerful, meaningful experience.
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:31.119
And it really fills our sense of spiritual worth because something's happening and it's big and it's meaningful, and we're seeing things and we're knowing things, and like we're blasted open.
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:43.760
And so there can be for a lot of those people this expectation that darkness retreats going to be this type of peak experience, and we're gonna get blasted open and DMT is gonna happen, and we're gonna have visual all these things.
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:52.079
And really, the the magic of the dark retreat takes place in the subtleties.
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:59.119
It's incredibly simple, it's incredibly delicate, it's so small, it's so quiet, it's so tiny.
00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:04.559
It is not filling us with a sense of spiritual worth and pride.
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:11.280
Or when obviously there's so much more to psychedelics, and that was for me an initial catalyst.
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:31.360
But just that being one of the traps of that, and then how that can kind of get jumbled up with a dark retreat, because it's really the meaning in a dark retreat is not found in the biggest, the brightest, the loudest, the coolest, the like the a really an amazing story to tell.
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:46.559
Like when people genuinely drop in the dark and open into a relational field with the dark and find an incredibly new level of intimacy and connectivity, they're just like, what could I say?
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.760
Like there's just not, it's not there's no big story.
00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:57.840
The way that someone kind of dissolves out into the dark, there's not someone there to really claim I did something amazing.
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.559
It's like, it's the dissolving of that.
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:04.559
And like when that droplet becomes the ocean, in a sense.
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:10.320
And so it's it's an incredibly simple experience.
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.280
And so there's not that much to write home about.
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:21.119
I mean, there is, it's fundamental and it could completely change us, but it's it's also incredibly simple.
00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:28.719
Now that's not to say, I was gonna say that's not to say some people do have peak experiences in the dark.
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:30.559
Some people do have visuals.
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:43.199
I'd say most of the people who have visuals don't like them and they want them to go away because they're distracting, they're overwhelming, it's obscuring kind of the simplicity, the subtlety that they've dropped into.
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:46.000
That's more often than not.
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:48.400
Some people have really cool visuals.
00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:53.440
Every once in a while, somebody comes and has a completely mind-blowing peak experience.
00:55:53.599 --> 00:56:00.159
And sometimes people come and they have a mind-blowing peak experience, and it lasts for about half an hour, 45 minutes.
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:04.800
They ride the afterwaves for it for about a couple hours, and then they're right back where they were.
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.920
Some people clawing back to another peak experience.
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:13.360
So we have found peak experiences do not fundamentally change someone.
00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:25.039
It's really the orientation, the way that we relate to what's here that can begin to fundamentally change us because we carry that through the entire current.
00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:35.840
And Scott, do you find afterwards, do you get feedback from the people that have come along and they've had this experience like we see on your Instagram reels?
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.199
Do you hear about afterwards when they go back into their normal life?
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:41.760
Does it keep rolling?
00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:48.960
Are they still having some kind of change or awareness in their everyday life?
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:49.760
Yeah.
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:55.440
I mean, we definitely we hear stories of like how it has or may have fundamentally changed people.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:59.599
And you know, there's one caveat I'd say about the Instagram reels.
00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:02.079
Um they're misleading.
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:06.159
They do not point to the type of experience that someone necessarily had.
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:11.920
Those reels, when people take their masks off, that is the peak experience of the entire thing.
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:18.719
So it's misleading in that we are displaying, showing, because it's really the only thing that we capture.
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:23.199
I mean, there's truth in it, and it's a peak experience.
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:31.119
And it is really hard to tell for some people, it's relief.
00:57:31.519 --> 00:58:06.480
I mean, we've stopped really sharing these videos to really more touch on the essence now of what we offer and what's possible of what, but when someone emerges for the dark, for some people, if they were holding their breath in there the majority of the time to get by, when you come out, when you're rescued from five days stranded on a desert island, you are going to be incredibly emotional, incredibly grateful, so happy, talking about, you know, really the peak moments and insights you've had, but it might have been incredibly difficult.
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:22.960
And then there's people who are totally open, deeper in new levels of intimacy and connectivity, and they come out and like, whoa, it's so much because they're feeling so much and it's through the connectivity, it's not from relief.
00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:27.840
So it can be um it's different.
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:35.760
We tend to not really portray the relief reels anymore so that we could kind of more stay true to um.
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:44.960
Well, that's not it could still look like relief, you know, it's still like there's still it's not so much grief.
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:47.760
I I feel it's that vulnerability.
00:58:48.719 --> 00:58:49.199
Yeah, relief.
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:49.679
Yeah, sorry.
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:50.239
Relief.
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:51.280
Yes, relief.
00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:52.719
Yeah, sounds similar.
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.079
Um very different.
00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:58.400
Uh yeah, but more like the difference between relief and connectivity.
00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:06.719
Yes, but it just speaks to me, and I'd imagine it speaks to so many people because it's so hard for people to show their vulnerability.
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:11.679
So when you witness that, it's like, oh God, it's like we it's like we're there with them.
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:18.159
You know, you just definitely we all relate to that feeling, which is just magical.
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:25.039
The ones we do show, it's hard to tell from the outside if it's real relief or if it's actually from the openness and connectivity.
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:28.000
They can look from the outside, it can look the same.
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:30.719
Like it is, it has that level of vulnerability.
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:40.559
And so I'd say in the last year or two, there is like we don't see that that often because of how we are with people now.
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:47.920
There is not a crazy amount of charge building up in people's nervous systems that when they come out, there's this huge moment of relief.
00:59:48.079 --> 01:00:01.119
And that is one thing that I'd say has changed over the years because we are closely tracking people's nervous systems so that someone's not staying in there, building up a bunch of charge so that when they come out, it's relief.
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:14.960
When they come out, it is more through the connectivity and actually that sense of intimately feeling what's here, not necessarily being relieved from being stranded on the desert island totally.
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:15.760
Yeah.
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:16.400
Yeah.
01:00:16.639 --> 01:00:17.599
I love that.
01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:22.559
What are the misconceptions about your dark retreats?
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:26.000
God, I feel like I just talked about so many of them.
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:27.519
Um yeah.
01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:31.360
Any specifically, if somebody comes in for the first time.
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:35.599
I mean, your expectations probably aren't going to be fulfilled.
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:42.239
It's very rare that I don't know if I've ever had somebody come and be like, this was exactly what I thought it was going to be.
01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:44.719
It's usually not.
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:58.320
Um, because if somebody's come just based on watching the Instagram reels, even those people, like not even the majority of them, like 95% of those people, that is not what they were in the majority of the time they were in the dark.
01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:03.760
They they had times in that current, but that's not like they weren't living that the whole time.
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:18.079
So that can be, you know, it's the misconceptions, unfortunately, how I see a lot of different dark retreat places that are popping up now, how they're selling themselves on all these positive spiritual benefits, nervous systems, all these things.
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:20.639
Like we just find that that's just not true.
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:22.159
It can be true.
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:27.840
But to say that it's going to be true, uh, it's just not from what we've seen.
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:35.039
Um, but it can be those things, but that depends on the orientation and how the containers is.
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:51.440
If it's presented that way, then somebody's going to try to replicate that and get there, as opposed to going through a process that allows them to admit, I'm uncomfortable, I'm scared, I'm overwhelmed, I want to go home, I don't like this, I'm nervous, I'm anxious.
01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:59.519
Because that, like you were saying about the vulnerability, that's incredibly vulnerable, incredibly exposing, really scary to admit.
01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:05.360
And then add on top of that, not doing anything about it to change it, adds another level of vulnerability.
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:21.360
But that's where someone really starts to come undone in a really gentle way, as we hold it with them, to actually land in a felt sense of safety while that's also present, since there's not a real threat.
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:27.519
And so, um, yeah, other things that I'd say, like misconceptions.
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:46.239
I think just through this whole conversation we touched on so many, which I think is really important because the more and more dark retreat centers, I think, that pop up, they get presented in a way that talk about the various benefits and they set an expectation that yeah.
01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:48.639
I like it with the no expectation.
01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:49.599
Yeah.
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:53.440
I like your approach with the no expectation, no goal.
01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:58.559
It's just coming in with just a tiny bit of openness about where it might take you.
01:02:58.880 --> 01:02:59.199
Right.
01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:02.400
And that in itself is a pretty magical ride.
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:11.760
So I would imagine, Scott, that this type of work as a facilitator has changed you as a person and how you show up.
01:03:11.920 --> 01:03:17.760
What have you learned the most about witnessing and facilitating what you do?
01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:18.800
Yeah.
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:20.559
It's definitely changed me.
01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:24.639
Like we have such a unique window into the human psyche here.
01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:26.880
You know, it's it's a pretty blank slate.
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:29.039
Everyone's going into the same type of experience.
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.440
It's a very controlled environment, if you will.
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:34.800
It's quiet, it's dark, everyone's eating the same food.
01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:36.719
So that's that's pretty unique.
01:03:37.519 --> 01:04:28.559
It's just amazing to see what's there when everything gets stripped away, when we're no longer able to prop ourselves up in the usual ways that we prop ourselves up, how we all habitually, reflexively go to protect ourselves when we're under threat, and what happens when we have co-regulation, when we're able to establish a felt sense of safety, what happens when we begin to trust ourselves, what different people and different structures and nervous systems need to have trust, to relax, to feel safe, to unwind, how we all have a different capacity for pressure and what a different system needs to follow a new pathway, to be safe, that like what's beneficial for one person, them moving in and expressing anger, could be another person just following their habitual pattern.
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:38.960
And for that person, it's, you know, that just the unique ways where that where how everyone's structured and what brings someone into something new and meets someone where they're at.
01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:50.719
And, you know, there was in the realm of expectations and not going in with much preconceived notions, there was somebody who was just here recently and not on a spiritual mission.
01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:54.960
He heard about it through Aaron Rodgers, the football player who came.
01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:58.400
He he this guy came and he was just here for the human experience.
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:00.800
He was just like, I just came to experience the human experience.
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:04.719
And so when he went in, he didn't have all these filters about how he should be.
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:08.000
He wasn't on this romanticized spiritual journey.
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:11.119
And one of the days I went up and he was incredibly honest.
01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:19.679
He fit into more of a unique category of somebody who was just able to name the discomfort because he didn't, he wasn't trying to not be uncomfortable.
01:05:20.239 --> 01:05:21.519
And he was very clear about that.
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:23.679
He's like, I've just come to be with what's here.
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:26.559
And one of the days he was like, I'm so lonely.
01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:28.559
And he was like, How could somebody not be lonely?
01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:51.760
Where I'm alone in here, I'm eating, and like, as I was with him in that, and as he was able to admit how lonely he was, that was the thing that had him very gently come undone and be vulnerable, and where he was able to feel to him how like connectivity and intimacy was everything, and how he was able to meet himself in that and what that then brought him into.
01:05:51.920 --> 01:05:59.760
And it's just amazing to see it tends to be that thread where we admit what feels like weakness, which is not.
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:09.119
Going to be intuitive that has us move into something totally authentic and allows something kind of spontaneous to emerge and something.
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:16.159
And just to understand that that we're, like you said, all human, having this human experience, right?
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:25.360
And we're always so worried about what other people think the vast, but at the end of the day, we're all feeling all the same feels, and we've got our bag of tricks that get us through life.
01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:27.199
So no, I love that.
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:29.920
It's it's just I find it really fascinating.
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:34.239
And one day I'm gonna get my ass over there and try it out, perhaps.
01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:34.960
Good.
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:36.719
We'll get you in the dark.
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:38.480
Yeah, so good.
01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:44.800
Now, Scott, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you wanted to touch on before we wrap up?
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:50.800
Um, I think we like uh yeah, we covered a lot of ground.
01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:52.719
We we covered a lot of ground.
01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:53.280
Yeah.
01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:59.360
So before we wrap up, I always like to offer a few questions of self-reconnection.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:06.159
So what has the darkness taught you personally about yourself?
01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:20.480
Um I guess personally, and not necessarily through the experience of others, but more like through my time of being in there.
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:38.960
It's you know, to be totally honest, it's showed me how I have habitually um gone to my go-to survival pattern would be one of them, it would be to dissociate and freeze and kind of go numb.
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:47.840
And so through my time in the dark, and naturally through witnessing others and seeing how that plays out, it showed me that pattern.
01:07:48.320 --> 01:08:00.320
And it uh gave me the space to really gently and spaciously, without time pressure, without performance, to really like allow myself to be in that.
01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:16.880
And then through that allowing, there was uh a thawing and then the capacity ability to be in that pressure, and then a whole process from that.
01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:27.439
And so it it did show me how I defend and deflect and gave me the space to allow myself to be in that and have it naturally move through my system.
01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:31.600
The ultimate self-awareness.
01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:33.920
Yeah.
01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:38.399
What are your go-to daily rituals you can't live without?
01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:48.479
One of the first things that there's not many things that I probably do every single day, but like I'll drink a quarter gallon of warm water every morning.
01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:50.000
That's the first thing.
01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:52.399
Uh, not for any specific health reason.
01:08:52.479 --> 01:08:55.760
It's just comforting and enjoyable.
01:08:56.159 --> 01:08:58.960
And so that's something I really enjoy.
01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:05.600
Um, I could live without it, but like that would be the one of the few things that I would do every day.
01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:18.079
And um I tend to, and more and more now each day, as I like learn to incorporate slowing down and doing nothing into my day-to-day.
01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:39.439
It's just like laying down, kicking up my feet and just relaxing, like doing nothing, not not a breath work, not a meditation, but just attuning to my body, just feeling the weight of my body and the gravity that pushes me down into whatever I'm laying on, and just simply enjoying nothing special.
01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:43.279
Just being 100% present.
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:44.960
Yeah.
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:51.039
Scott, thank you so much for an honest and deeply thought-provoking conversation.
01:09:51.279 --> 01:09:59.680
Perhaps it's not the darkness that people are truly afraid of, but the emotions that rise up as a result of sitting with themselves.
01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:06.880
Your work invites people to slow down, become still, and reconnect with themselves in such a powerful way.
01:10:07.039 --> 01:10:09.920
Thank you so much for coming on the show and being a guest today.
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:13.359
Where can people find you and explore your work?
01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:14.159
Yep.
01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:19.439
Um, skykaveretreats.com on Instagram, Skycaveretreats, also on YouTube.
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:21.680
We put the same kind of reels up there.
01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:25.199
And so those are all the different places to find us.
01:10:26.079 --> 01:10:26.720
Super.
01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:27.920
Thank you.
01:10:28.239 --> 01:10:29.840
Thanks for having me.
01:10:35.600 --> 01:10:38.640
Thank you for joining me on Inside Out Connections.
01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:44.159
I hope today's conversation reminds you to tune in and find small ways to self reconnect.
01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:48.960
If this episode resonated, please share it with a friend or leave a quick review.
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:52.720
Come join me on Instagram at insideout skin gutcoach.