Write Great Dialogue… without Writing Dialogue?

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Welcome to the Inside Creative Writing podcast.
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The weekly discussion of craft and technique for
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writers of fiction and creative nonfiction.
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And now here's your host, writer and educator,
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Brad Reid.
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Episode 36. Writing great dialogue can be one
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of the biggest challenges a writer faces. Today,
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we explore a technique that most writers overlook,
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and it's something you probably never thought to
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try.
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And welcome back to the Inside Creative Writing
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podcast. My name is Brad Reed, and I
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wanna thank you for choosing to spend part
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of your day with me today
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talking about writing.
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I actually have very mixed emotions as I
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sit down at the microphone today. And before
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we get into today's topic, I wanna kinda
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talk through these emotions with you just a
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bit. Now the show has been back on
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now for almost six months
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and I feel like it's time to do
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a little bit of introspection,
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related to how things are going so far.
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Now, I'll admit that I had
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pretty lofty,
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expectations
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after the success of the show the first
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time around
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back in 02/2014,
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'2 thousand '15.
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Within a matter of just a few months
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back then, we had tens of thousands
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of people downloading the show every week. It
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was absolutely
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amazing.
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And I I kind of kicked myself for
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shelving it back then because we had gotten
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off to such a great start. Although, when
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I look back, I didn't have a lot
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of choice going back to finish my graduate
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work and, starting a new career was just
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too much.
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From what I can tell, the numbers back
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then would have put the show easily in
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the top five to 10%
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of all podcasts
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online back then, which is, just amazing. It
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was kind of a thrill ride. Well, the
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world is a very different place now and
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as we know, the Internet is flooded with
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outstanding
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podcasts on every imaginable
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topic including writing, of course. Now, when we
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first started out, we were one of only
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a tiny handful
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of podcasts that were exploring the craft of
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writing.
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Not how to get published or build a
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following or get an agent, but the nuts
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and the bolts of putting
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words on the page.
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Well, now we're among a
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or one among a myriad
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of great options.
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And it stands to reason that our listenership
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would be way, way down from those early
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days and that's certainly been the case. Now,
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don't get me wrong. I appreciate those of
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you who are listening to the show and
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sharing it with your writer friends so,
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so much.
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But at some point, I have to make
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the decision,
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about whether it's simply taking too much time
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away from my own writing time
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to justify the time and the resources that
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it takes to write it and produce it
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and distribute it. Now, I haven't made a
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final decision on any of this yet. Not
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by a long shot. But, I feel like
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this decision has to be, has to come
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pretty soon. I mean, on one hand,
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I kind of feel like we just need
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to keep plugging away and build that listenership
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over time.
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But, I also have to think about how
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much slower my own writing projects and some
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of the other things I'm working on are
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coming along because of the time
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and the energy that I give to this
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podcast. So here's essentially, I guess, what I'm
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trying to say.
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There is a chance, we'll be wrapping things
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up here in the next few weeks. And
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honestly, there's an equal chance that we won't.
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I'm just kind of in that soul searching
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stage. But even if we do, even if
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we do wrap it up, even if the
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decision is made that the writing has to
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take priority,
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I'm still a teacher at heart. Right? And
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I'm not going to go away from that.
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I've tried before and there's no way I
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cannot be,
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teaching. It's just the way I'm wired.
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And that's why I'm launching a weekly newsletter,
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featuring a lot of the same resources that
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you've grown to appreciate from the podcast.
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So it's either going to end up being
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a kind of companion piece to the podcast
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or, I hate to say it, but it
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might eventually become a replacement
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for the podcast. So part of the reason
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I'm talking to you about this today is
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that I'd like to invite you to actually
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sign up for that newsletter
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so that I don't lose touch with you
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if, the podcast,
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comes to an end. We're gonna be packing
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it full of many writing lessons,
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great resources, great links for writers,
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motivation for those tough writing days, and even
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some news about my own works in progress
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and kind of what I'm learning from what
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I'm reading. You know what? I might actually
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I'm thinking about even doing an audio version
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of that newsletter and releasing it as a
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kind of mini
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podcast. So I don't think we're going completely
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away from audio. We're just gonna have to
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see. So anyway, if you're interested in checking
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out that newsletter, I call it the Five
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Big Things newsletter. You can get some information
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on that by heading over to bradreedwrites.com.
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You'll see a link there that says newsletter
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and you can sign up for that and
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get a little more information
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about it. So
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that's where I'm at. I just wanna thank
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you again so much for being a listener
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and I hate that I kind of phrase
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that as, you know, there weren't enough people
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or there aren't enough people out there to
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justify it because,
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you know, I I still have hundreds of
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listeners right now, which is outstanding, and I
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love
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being able to connect with you in this
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way. But eventually,
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you know, I kinda have to look at
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the dollars and the cents and the time
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of it. And if we don't reach a
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certain level,
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then, you know, it's kinda the writing on
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the wall that I need to be prioritizing
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things a little bit differently.
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I truly love
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doing this podcast and interacting with you guys
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in this way. You know, at the end
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of the day, we all we all just
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get that twenty four hours a day and,
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sometimes something has to give. So, alright, enough
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of that drama. Like I said, I have
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not made a decision about that yet, but
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I wanted to let you know as loyal
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listeners,
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that that's kind of my thought process where
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I'm at.
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So, enough with all that. Let's go ahead
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and get into today's topic and, let's get
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better at writing dialogue.
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I think the element of writing that gives
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me the most trouble is dialogue.
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And I'm actually not sure why.
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From the outside looking in, it feels like
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dialogue should be the easy part. I mean,
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I've been talking and listening and hearing people
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talk for nearly five decades now. Dialogue should
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be second nature to me. But when I
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sit down to write it, it still often
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comes out clunky,
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unrealistic.
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It comes out too forced.
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And I get what I should be doing
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with dialogue. Right? I get subtext. I get
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all of that stuff. And I've learned ways
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to go back and revise and rewrite and
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and rework dialogue until it's better, but I
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never really get to the point that I
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feel like it's good or even great.
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So a recent quick write exercise I did
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with my creative writing class
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began to change
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my approach to writing dialogue though. It actually
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came from a book called Write Now, edited
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by Sherry Ellis. It's the same book that
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I mentioned last week. And I'll go ahead
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and put a link to that book in
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the show notes if you're interested in picking
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up a copy.
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In the book, there's a bunch of different
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writing prompts and exercises from a bunch of
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different writers.
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And the one that caught my attention was
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written by Sands Hall,
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author of the novel Catching Heaven and a
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book on writing called Tools of the Writer's
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Craft.
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And Sands introduces an exercise called
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Dialogue Without Words.
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So the challenge or the exercise is basically
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this.
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Write a scene of conflict
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between at least two characters
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with absolutely
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no dialogue whatsoever.
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So the characters never breathe a word to
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each other.
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Instead, what you have to do is figure
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out ways to show the conflict
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through the setting,
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through the mise en scene, through the body
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language and actions
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of the characters.
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You know, people say that about 90% of
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what we communicate comes through body language, not
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in the words that we speak. And this
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exercise
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is your opportunity
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to learn to bring that 90 that other
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90% into play.
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So, Sans recommends doing a little bit of
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pre planning.
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When you do a
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dialogueless scene like this or a dialogueless write.
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So what you wanna do is figure out
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beforehand what the conflict is going to be.
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Maybe it's,
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marital spat over who's gonna cook dinner for
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a night or maybe in the workplace, you
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have a trainer that's frustrated with the ineptitude
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of their trainee as a couple of examples.
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And you wanna choose a setting
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that sets up that conflict.
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Choose that very intentionally.
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Then simply let the characters begin to move.
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Right? Begin to make facial expressions, to use
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gestures,
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and to interact with the things in the
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setting
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that
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show their emotional state. That begin to hint
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at their desires, what they want in the
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scene.
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Now the goal of this is not necessarily
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to write
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so specifically that your reader could say, oh,
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she's upset because she thinks her husband is
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cheating on her with his secretary. Right? Although
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you probably want to have that level of
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specificity in your mind as you're writing it.
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It'll help you find those details.
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Instead, the goal is that
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your reader through the scene learns and intuit
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something
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about these characters
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through
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their body language, through the setting, through their
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interactions,
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through anything other than dialogue.
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So without dialogue, your readers'
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other ways of creating meaning,
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they go into overdrive. They become very, very
275
00:09:45,495 --> 00:09:47,509
sensitive. It's almost like, you know, when you
276
00:09:47,509 --> 00:09:49,269
have a blindfold on for a certain amount
277
00:09:49,269 --> 00:09:51,529
of time, your other senses become
278
00:09:51,990 --> 00:09:52,470
more,
279
00:09:52,870 --> 00:09:54,789
sensitive. We're kind of doing the same thing
280
00:09:54,789 --> 00:09:57,350
here. By removing the dialogue, we're causing our
281
00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:58,730
reader to begin to read
282
00:09:59,054 --> 00:09:59,794
more deeply
283
00:10:00,335 --> 00:10:02,754
into every nuance. Every movement
284
00:10:03,215 --> 00:10:05,794
to discover what's going on in that scene.
285
00:10:06,975 --> 00:10:08,434
And I think you'll be surprised
286
00:10:08,975 --> 00:10:11,235
at how much you can communicate
287
00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:14,000
to your reader and how much your characters
288
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,860
can communicate with each other
289
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,879
without using any words at all. This is
290
00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:21,040
really the essence of what we call show
291
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:21,860
don't tell.
292
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,620
Right? You're showing
293
00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:26,100
what the characters aren't speaking
294
00:10:26,514 --> 00:10:29,735
or literally telling each other. It's a powerful
295
00:10:29,875 --> 00:10:33,074
technique that will bring your readers right into
296
00:10:33,074 --> 00:10:36,134
your story and get them interacting with it
297
00:10:36,195 --> 00:10:38,454
to figure out what's going on.
298
00:10:39,409 --> 00:10:40,850
So, one way I use this in my
299
00:10:40,850 --> 00:10:43,409
own writing is that I'll first try to
300
00:10:43,409 --> 00:10:44,230
write a scene
301
00:10:44,610 --> 00:10:46,929
without any dialogue at all. So, I'm coming
302
00:10:46,929 --> 00:10:48,289
up on my next scene to write and
303
00:10:48,289 --> 00:10:49,970
I know that I'm gonna have characters talking
304
00:10:49,970 --> 00:10:51,029
and having conflicts.
305
00:10:51,434 --> 00:10:53,514
But my first draft or my first attempt
306
00:10:53,514 --> 00:10:55,455
is to try to write it without anybody
307
00:10:55,595 --> 00:10:56,575
speaking a word.
308
00:10:57,274 --> 00:11:00,735
And I'm actually surprised how often the scene
309
00:11:00,794 --> 00:11:02,575
works out pretty well.
310
00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:05,290
But still, once I've done the best I
311
00:11:05,290 --> 00:11:07,690
can without any dialogue at all, then I
312
00:11:07,690 --> 00:11:10,090
go back in and I start dropping in
313
00:11:10,090 --> 00:11:12,750
dialogue as little as I possibly can.
314
00:11:13,050 --> 00:11:15,389
Just those little moments where I really truly
315
00:11:16,009 --> 00:11:17,870
need a character to speak something.
316
00:11:18,195 --> 00:11:19,495
And doing it this way
317
00:11:19,875 --> 00:11:22,134
makes the impact and power
318
00:11:22,674 --> 00:11:25,154
of what the characters do say that much
319
00:11:25,154 --> 00:11:25,654
stronger.
320
00:11:26,115 --> 00:11:27,735
You know, it's kind of like a word,
321
00:11:28,195 --> 00:11:31,235
suddenly yelled out in a quiet library. Right?
322
00:11:31,235 --> 00:11:33,899
Everybody's gonna notice and pay attention to it
323
00:11:33,980 --> 00:11:36,540
because it's been so quiet up until that
324
00:11:36,540 --> 00:11:38,779
point. That's kind of what we're accomplishing with
325
00:11:38,779 --> 00:11:41,420
this technique is that people tend to be
326
00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:43,180
quiet in this kind of writing and we're
327
00:11:43,180 --> 00:11:45,019
reading into that dialogue. So when they do
328
00:11:45,019 --> 00:11:45,519
speak,
329
00:11:45,980 --> 00:11:47,440
that word or that sentence
330
00:11:48,625 --> 00:11:50,725
resounds with a lot more impact.
331
00:11:51,424 --> 00:11:54,485
The other thing that I love, love, love
332
00:11:54,625 --> 00:11:55,605
about this technique
333
00:11:56,225 --> 00:11:58,464
is that you can start playing with how
334
00:11:58,464 --> 00:12:01,504
people lie to each other. How people deceive
335
00:12:01,504 --> 00:12:02,190
each other.
336
00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:04,909
So if you've created a scene where there
337
00:12:04,909 --> 00:12:05,309
is,
338
00:12:05,789 --> 00:12:08,450
either no dialogue or very little dialogue,
339
00:12:09,070 --> 00:12:12,129
but the settings, the actions, the body language
340
00:12:12,190 --> 00:12:13,570
are clearly showing,
341
00:12:13,950 --> 00:12:16,049
you know, something like a husband who
342
00:12:16,634 --> 00:12:18,014
despises his wife,
343
00:12:18,634 --> 00:12:20,175
you could then have that husband
344
00:12:20,795 --> 00:12:23,215
finally walk up and whisper into her ear,
345
00:12:23,595 --> 00:12:24,495
I love you.
346
00:12:25,195 --> 00:12:27,435
And your reader will want to punch that
347
00:12:27,435 --> 00:12:29,935
guy right in the face. Right? Because now
348
00:12:29,995 --> 00:12:31,935
we know he's lying.
349
00:12:32,610 --> 00:12:34,789
Because he's been telling her in absolutely
350
00:12:35,169 --> 00:12:38,070
every other way that he actually despises her.
351
00:12:38,610 --> 00:12:40,929
Now we see that that I love you
352
00:12:40,929 --> 00:12:41,990
is just a manipulation.
353
00:12:43,090 --> 00:12:46,049
Because it stands against all the rest of
354
00:12:46,049 --> 00:12:46,710
the evidence,
355
00:12:47,245 --> 00:12:48,865
for the way that the man is communicating
356
00:12:49,085 --> 00:12:49,985
without words.
357
00:12:51,004 --> 00:12:53,404
Now that we have an interesting character, right?
358
00:12:53,404 --> 00:12:55,745
Now we have an interesting character with ulterior
359
00:12:55,804 --> 00:12:57,585
motives. And your reader
360
00:12:58,285 --> 00:13:00,925
gets to feel like a genius because they
361
00:13:00,925 --> 00:13:03,539
feel like they've figured it out, right? They've
362
00:13:03,539 --> 00:13:05,299
read all the clues and they're the ones
363
00:13:05,299 --> 00:13:06,820
that figured out, oh, wait a second. This
364
00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:09,700
guy's lying at this point. It's a great
365
00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:11,779
way to get your reader involved in your
366
00:13:11,779 --> 00:13:13,940
story, to get them solving what we like
367
00:13:13,940 --> 00:13:16,179
to call those little mysteries that you've built
368
00:13:16,179 --> 00:13:17,085
in there for them.
369
00:13:17,965 --> 00:13:20,144
So if you're really interested in this technique,
370
00:13:20,845 --> 00:13:22,925
something you might wanna do is actually go
371
00:13:22,925 --> 00:13:25,884
back and watch some old silent films and
372
00:13:25,884 --> 00:13:26,384
see
373
00:13:26,925 --> 00:13:29,425
how they communicate emotion. How they communicate
374
00:13:29,884 --> 00:13:31,264
desire and intention
375
00:13:32,059 --> 00:13:33,120
without dialogue.
376
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:34,959
I mean, sure, there's that occasional,
377
00:13:35,339 --> 00:13:37,899
kind of dialogue card that pops up to
378
00:13:37,899 --> 00:13:40,720
deliver a line of dialogue. But these filmmakers
379
00:13:40,860 --> 00:13:44,639
were masters of accomplishing as much as possible
380
00:13:45,434 --> 00:13:47,375
without relying on dialogue.
381
00:13:47,835 --> 00:13:48,335
So
382
00:13:48,794 --> 00:13:50,254
really live in the details
383
00:13:50,715 --> 00:13:52,174
as you watch these films.
384
00:13:52,475 --> 00:13:55,035
In fact, maybe even pause them every once
385
00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:57,355
in a while and explore everything that's going
386
00:13:57,355 --> 00:13:59,615
on in that scene. The way the lighting
387
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,299
is handled. The way
388
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,299
the camera is angled.
389
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,259
The body positioning of the characters. The expressions
390
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,879
on their face. The props and the tools
391
00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:11,040
in their hands and the things in the
392
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,620
background. We're noticing it all because it all
393
00:14:14,125 --> 00:14:15,824
plays a role in creating
394
00:14:16,605 --> 00:14:18,144
that wordless conflict.
395
00:14:18,924 --> 00:14:19,404
And,
396
00:14:20,044 --> 00:14:22,605
all of those things are just accessible to
397
00:14:22,605 --> 00:14:24,464
us to use as prose writers
398
00:14:24,845 --> 00:14:26,485
as they are to filmmakers. And now that
399
00:14:26,485 --> 00:14:28,044
I think about it, in addition to old
400
00:14:28,044 --> 00:14:28,944
silent films,
401
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:32,649
another, place that's a master of this is,
402
00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:36,710
Pixar. Right? Especially in their little short films
403
00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:37,529
that they have
404
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:39,029
prior to their,
405
00:14:40,149 --> 00:14:41,990
their full on films. In fact, I was
406
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:43,590
showing one of my class today. It's called
407
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:44,090
Paperman.
408
00:14:44,495 --> 00:14:46,095
Right? Maybe you've seen it, maybe you haven't.
409
00:14:46,095 --> 00:14:48,975
But, completely silent. Right? Other I mean, there's
410
00:14:48,975 --> 00:14:51,534
music. But there's no not a word spoken.
411
00:14:51,534 --> 00:14:53,875
And yet it is packed, packed, packed
412
00:14:54,495 --> 00:14:55,315
with emotion
413
00:14:55,934 --> 00:14:59,019
and with conflict and with story. So take
414
00:14:59,019 --> 00:15:01,039
some time to study those scenes,
415
00:15:01,419 --> 00:15:02,559
those short films
416
00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:05,339
that don't use any dialogue and learn that
417
00:15:05,339 --> 00:15:07,039
trick, that skill of writing,
418
00:15:07,659 --> 00:15:10,620
what we're calling dialogue less dialogue, right? Because
419
00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:12,159
there's communication happening.
420
00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:14,455
It's just not happening in the traditional way
421
00:15:14,455 --> 00:15:15,434
that we do it.
422
00:15:15,815 --> 00:15:17,595
So the more I play with this technique,
423
00:15:18,054 --> 00:15:21,654
the more I realize how much I use
424
00:15:21,654 --> 00:15:23,034
dialogue as a crutch
425
00:15:23,654 --> 00:15:25,034
instead of a tool.
426
00:15:25,759 --> 00:15:27,519
So if you think about it, it's much
427
00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:29,279
easier to have a character just come right
428
00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:31,540
out and say, I'm angry with you, Bill,
429
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,720
than it is to spend the time as
430
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,379
a writer, the brainpower as a writer to
431
00:15:38,414 --> 00:15:41,774
pause and create the perfect setting, to create
432
00:15:41,774 --> 00:15:44,914
the perfect background and the background elements and
433
00:15:45,134 --> 00:15:48,254
describe the tilt of an eyebrow or the
434
00:15:48,254 --> 00:15:51,294
twist of a mouth that maybe communicates that
435
00:15:51,294 --> 00:15:52,034
same emotion
436
00:15:52,575 --> 00:15:53,715
underneath the surface.
437
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,600
But that kind of work is so worth
438
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:57,340
the effort.
439
00:15:58,279 --> 00:15:59,980
Your readers are masters
440
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,679
of reading these little clues because it's how
441
00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:05,080
we interact with the real world every single
442
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:05,580
day.
443
00:16:06,245 --> 00:16:07,845
In fact, the only thing we've got more
444
00:16:07,845 --> 00:16:11,044
experience in than hearing and constructing language is
445
00:16:11,044 --> 00:16:11,544
probably
446
00:16:12,084 --> 00:16:14,565
reading into the actions and the intentions of
447
00:16:14,565 --> 00:16:15,065
others.
448
00:16:15,445 --> 00:16:16,804
I mean, if you think about it, before
449
00:16:16,804 --> 00:16:18,964
we ever learned the meaning of the word
450
00:16:18,964 --> 00:16:19,464
no,
451
00:16:20,179 --> 00:16:22,600
we were almost certainly able to recognize
452
00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:26,419
the subtle change of posture, the furrowing of
453
00:16:26,419 --> 00:16:28,659
a brow in a parent's face that was
454
00:16:28,659 --> 00:16:31,299
telling us no long before we heard the
455
00:16:31,299 --> 00:16:31,799
word.
456
00:16:32,595 --> 00:16:34,294
So this kind of writing, this technique
457
00:16:34,835 --> 00:16:38,215
gets back to that basic form of reading
458
00:16:38,674 --> 00:16:41,794
and understanding the world. It's almost primeval, I
459
00:16:41,794 --> 00:16:44,534
think. And in that way, really, really powerful.
460
00:16:45,409 --> 00:16:48,069
So there's your tip for writing better dialogue,
461
00:16:48,209 --> 00:16:50,069
and the tip is write far,
462
00:16:50,370 --> 00:16:52,069
far less dialogue.
463
00:16:52,690 --> 00:16:54,449
Now I can hear you now. Right? You're
464
00:16:54,449 --> 00:16:56,449
saying, but I have a character who's defined
465
00:16:56,449 --> 00:16:58,754
by how talkative he or she is. Or,
466
00:16:59,075 --> 00:17:01,475
but I'm writing a phone conversation. Right? Or,
467
00:17:01,955 --> 00:17:03,634
I'm writing a court scene where I have
468
00:17:03,634 --> 00:17:05,795
lawyers that are arguing. Now, of course, there
469
00:17:05,795 --> 00:17:07,095
are always exceptions.
470
00:17:07,795 --> 00:17:09,974
And those exceptions are always opportunities
471
00:17:10,355 --> 00:17:11,894
to do something intentional
472
00:17:12,809 --> 00:17:14,889
for even more impact. So if you think
473
00:17:14,889 --> 00:17:18,169
about it, how much more would your chatty
474
00:17:18,169 --> 00:17:19,950
Cathy character stand out
475
00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:22,990
if there was dramatically less dialogue
476
00:17:23,450 --> 00:17:25,549
from all your other characters in the story?
477
00:17:26,085 --> 00:17:28,644
Right? Much more powerful now. How much more
478
00:17:28,644 --> 00:17:30,265
would we understand the subtext
479
00:17:30,724 --> 00:17:32,105
of a phone conversation
480
00:17:32,724 --> 00:17:34,644
if we could see one party, you know,
481
00:17:34,644 --> 00:17:36,825
kind of twisting a phone cord
482
00:17:37,285 --> 00:17:40,039
nervously in their fingers as they talked? And
483
00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:41,860
man, did I just did I just date
484
00:17:41,860 --> 00:17:43,460
myself or what? How long has it been
485
00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:46,180
since anybody twisted their fingers in a phone
486
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:48,259
cord? Anyway, hopefully you still get what I
487
00:17:48,259 --> 00:17:49,480
what I mean by that.
488
00:17:49,940 --> 00:17:52,019
So there's an old adage that goes something
489
00:17:52,019 --> 00:17:52,680
like this.
490
00:17:53,059 --> 00:17:54,600
Watch what people do,
491
00:17:54,964 --> 00:17:56,265
not what they say.
492
00:17:57,285 --> 00:17:59,924
People can lie and deceive and embellish and
493
00:17:59,924 --> 00:18:00,424
withhold
494
00:18:00,884 --> 00:18:03,464
with their language, but what they actually do
495
00:18:04,164 --> 00:18:06,565
is who they really are and what they
496
00:18:06,565 --> 00:18:09,065
really mean. That's true in our writing
497
00:18:09,660 --> 00:18:11,420
just as much as it's true in the
498
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:12,480
world around us.
499
00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:21,019
Today's wise word comes to us from writing
500
00:18:21,019 --> 00:18:22,720
guru and author of KraftBooks'
501
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:24,480
story and dialogue,
502
00:18:25,184 --> 00:18:25,924
Robert McKee.
503
00:18:26,784 --> 00:18:27,764
Now it's tangentially
504
00:18:28,144 --> 00:18:30,625
related to today's topic, but we'll explore that
505
00:18:30,625 --> 00:18:33,184
in a second. First, here's McKee and what
506
00:18:33,184 --> 00:18:35,184
he has to say among many things on
507
00:18:35,184 --> 00:18:35,684
storytelling.
508
00:18:36,944 --> 00:18:38,404
If the story you're telling
509
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:40,410
is the story you're telling,
510
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:42,410
you're in deep shit,
511
00:18:42,869 --> 00:18:44,390
says Robert McKee. I'm gonna read that once
512
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:46,250
more and I apologize for the swear word.
513
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:48,090
If the story you're telling
514
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:49,930
is the story you're telling,
515
00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:51,850
you're in deep shit.
516
00:18:52,805 --> 00:18:55,765
Now I think this is a truism about
517
00:18:55,765 --> 00:18:57,704
writing that is often overlooked.
518
00:18:58,484 --> 00:18:59,924
We think that if we have a great
519
00:18:59,924 --> 00:19:02,484
premise, right, or a great story world or
520
00:19:02,484 --> 00:19:03,305
an interesting
521
00:19:03,924 --> 00:19:04,904
unique character,
522
00:19:05,285 --> 00:19:07,865
that this that's enough for the story to
523
00:19:08,140 --> 00:19:10,240
kind of take care of itself, to work.
524
00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:12,640
That that'll be enough to carry it through.
525
00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:14,559
But stories are always
526
00:19:14,940 --> 00:19:18,140
about something deeper than the plot. Some it's
527
00:19:18,299 --> 00:19:21,179
they're about some expression of how to live
528
00:19:21,179 --> 00:19:24,194
in the world, or how to overcome our
529
00:19:24,194 --> 00:19:26,355
obstacles or how to see the world in
530
00:19:26,355 --> 00:19:27,255
a new way.
531
00:19:27,555 --> 00:19:29,815
Now, we've discussed this in other episodes,
532
00:19:30,194 --> 00:19:33,095
but this is basically what's happening on a
533
00:19:33,154 --> 00:19:37,120
minuscule or microscopic level in our dialogue, or
534
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:39,400
at least it's what should be happening in
535
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,140
our dialogue.
536
00:19:40,519 --> 00:19:43,320
So we might actually modify McKee's statement here
537
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,279
by saying, if the dialogue your character is
538
00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:48,779
speaking is really what they are saying,
539
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,974
you're in deep shit. Right? So dialogue
540
00:19:52,595 --> 00:19:55,414
is almost always a kind of mask
541
00:19:55,714 --> 00:19:57,714
for what the character is really trying to
542
00:19:57,714 --> 00:19:58,214
say.
543
00:19:58,515 --> 00:20:00,034
It's a kind of weapon. You can think
544
00:20:00,034 --> 00:20:01,794
of it as a weapon that the character
545
00:20:01,794 --> 00:20:03,974
uses to try to get what they want
546
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:06,230
from the person that they are talking to.
547
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:07,289
Even if it's not,
548
00:20:08,069 --> 00:20:09,210
you know, an obviously,
549
00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:13,210
a situation that is full of obvious conflict,
550
00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:16,549
they're still using dialogue to get what they
551
00:20:16,549 --> 00:20:17,049
want.
552
00:20:17,474 --> 00:20:20,275
So, from McKee, these are wise words indeed.
553
00:20:20,275 --> 00:20:21,875
Right now and McKee is a bit of
554
00:20:21,875 --> 00:20:24,275
a controversial figure in the world of writing
555
00:20:24,275 --> 00:20:24,775
gurus,
556
00:20:25,234 --> 00:20:28,194
but I think there's value in every book
557
00:20:28,194 --> 00:20:29,894
on craft that is written.
558
00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:32,860
Because it's all about taking what works for
559
00:20:32,860 --> 00:20:34,940
you and just kind of leaving the rest
560
00:20:34,940 --> 00:20:36,700
behind. Maybe you're not ready for it yet.
561
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:38,460
Maybe later in your life, that piece of
562
00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:40,619
advice will be more relevant, but for now
563
00:20:40,619 --> 00:20:42,539
it's not. Right? So you set that aside
564
00:20:42,539 --> 00:20:45,125
and just take what is valuable to you
565
00:20:45,125 --> 00:20:46,585
at the time and move forward.
566
00:20:47,444 --> 00:20:49,045
If you haven't checked out any of McKee's
567
00:20:49,045 --> 00:20:51,365
work, I really, really suggest that you do.
568
00:20:51,365 --> 00:20:53,444
I know it's made a huge impact on
569
00:20:53,444 --> 00:20:55,765
my writing and it likely will on yours
570
00:20:55,765 --> 00:20:56,309
as well.
571
00:21:00,870 --> 00:21:02,309
So this is the part of the show
572
00:21:02,309 --> 00:21:04,789
where I usually share a writing challenge for
573
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:07,190
the week ahead. But I'm going to forego
574
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:09,289
that this week since the show itself,
575
00:21:09,914 --> 00:21:10,975
was basically,
576
00:21:11,674 --> 00:21:13,995
a writing challenge. Right? To to try to
577
00:21:13,995 --> 00:21:16,634
write scenes with as little dialogue as possible.
578
00:21:16,634 --> 00:21:18,315
And I hope you'll try that this week.
579
00:21:18,315 --> 00:21:20,095
Try to write an entire scene
580
00:21:20,555 --> 00:21:23,215
without dialogue, especially a scene of conflict.
581
00:21:23,769 --> 00:21:26,009
So instead with this weekly challenge segment, I'd
582
00:21:26,009 --> 00:21:28,170
like to actually introduce something that I'm gonna
583
00:21:28,170 --> 00:21:30,250
be sharing in the newsletter that I talked
584
00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:31,529
about at the top of the show, and
585
00:21:31,529 --> 00:21:32,990
I'm calling it the big read.
586
00:21:33,369 --> 00:21:35,470
And it's a chance for me to share
587
00:21:35,845 --> 00:21:38,025
what I'm reading now and how
588
00:21:38,644 --> 00:21:41,865
what I'm reading is informing my own writing.
589
00:21:42,565 --> 00:21:44,164
So right now I'm reading a book called
590
00:21:44,164 --> 00:21:45,684
A 27
591
00:21:45,684 --> 00:21:46,904
by Aron Ralston.
592
00:21:47,285 --> 00:21:48,965
If you've read this or heard about it,
593
00:21:48,965 --> 00:21:50,990
you know that this is a pretty rough
594
00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:52,829
story. Right? True story of the guy who
595
00:21:52,829 --> 00:21:54,450
gets trapped by the boulder,
596
00:21:55,069 --> 00:21:57,230
and has to sever his own arm to
597
00:21:57,230 --> 00:21:59,549
escape and to live. So now I know
598
00:21:59,549 --> 00:22:02,029
I'm a little slow getting around to actually
599
00:22:02,029 --> 00:22:03,549
reading this book. I mean, it was a
600
00:22:03,549 --> 00:22:05,409
bestseller in 02/2010.
601
00:22:06,095 --> 00:22:07,715
But, honestly, I've been
602
00:22:08,335 --> 00:22:09,234
a little scared
603
00:22:09,615 --> 00:22:10,914
of this book. So,
604
00:22:11,375 --> 00:22:13,695
I'm usually into stories of survival and things
605
00:22:13,695 --> 00:22:14,355
like that,
606
00:22:14,734 --> 00:22:16,494
but I just wasn't sure I could handle
607
00:22:16,494 --> 00:22:19,474
reading about somebody cutting off their own arm.
608
00:22:20,170 --> 00:22:21,690
But I knew it would be a great
609
00:22:21,690 --> 00:22:23,529
model for what I'm writing right now for
610
00:22:23,529 --> 00:22:25,930
my current work in progress. So I finally
611
00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:27,769
bit the bullet, and I dove in. Now
612
00:22:27,769 --> 00:22:29,289
I'm only about a quarter of the way,
613
00:22:29,529 --> 00:22:31,210
through the book as of today, but I
614
00:22:31,210 --> 00:22:33,309
already feel like I'm getting some insights
615
00:22:33,849 --> 00:22:34,670
in craft
616
00:22:35,035 --> 00:22:36,875
from this book. And here's the insight I
617
00:22:36,875 --> 00:22:38,255
wanted to share with you today.
618
00:22:38,634 --> 00:22:40,394
So this book seems to be a good
619
00:22:40,394 --> 00:22:41,615
model for
620
00:22:41,914 --> 00:22:43,615
how to incorporate backstory
621
00:22:43,914 --> 00:22:45,454
into what could
622
00:22:45,994 --> 00:22:49,150
be a relatively dull experience overall. Now you're
623
00:22:49,150 --> 00:22:51,390
thinking, wait a second, Brad. A dull experience.
624
00:22:51,390 --> 00:22:53,150
He severs his arm. Right? But when you
625
00:22:53,150 --> 00:22:55,710
think about it, that's a very tiny part
626
00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:56,830
of this book, and the rest of the
627
00:22:56,830 --> 00:22:57,970
book is him basically
628
00:22:58,430 --> 00:23:01,154
stuck. Right? Nobody else is around. He's stuck.
629
00:23:01,875 --> 00:23:04,595
So how else does a writer sustain over
630
00:23:04,595 --> 00:23:06,695
400 pages of basically,
631
00:23:07,154 --> 00:23:09,015
oh, shit. I'm stuck under this rock
632
00:23:09,474 --> 00:23:12,275
without jumping into backstory? So he's got to
633
00:23:12,275 --> 00:23:14,595
bring a lot of backstory into the story
634
00:23:14,595 --> 00:23:15,734
to to fill it out.
635
00:23:16,589 --> 00:23:18,690
And Ralston here seems to be using
636
00:23:19,470 --> 00:23:22,029
an every other chapter technique to break up
637
00:23:22,029 --> 00:23:24,509
the story. So one chapter will be in
638
00:23:24,509 --> 00:23:26,829
real time. Right? He's stuck and he's trying
639
00:23:26,829 --> 00:23:29,089
to get out. He's trying to extricate himself.
640
00:23:29,394 --> 00:23:31,714
And that seems to be almost always followed
641
00:23:31,714 --> 00:23:33,335
by a chapter or a section
642
00:23:33,634 --> 00:23:35,714
that goes back and kinda builds up his
643
00:23:35,714 --> 00:23:36,214
outdoorsman
644
00:23:36,515 --> 00:23:37,734
cred and his backstory.
645
00:23:38,595 --> 00:23:40,535
And I'm actually not sure I'm crazy
646
00:23:40,994 --> 00:23:43,795
about the technique because I already feel that
647
00:23:43,795 --> 00:23:44,295
pull
648
00:23:45,490 --> 00:23:47,750
to kind of just skip the backstory chapters
649
00:23:48,450 --> 00:23:50,549
and get to the good stuff. Right? Now
650
00:23:50,929 --> 00:23:52,609
I'm a little troubled that I just called,
651
00:23:52,769 --> 00:23:54,849
you know, a person cutting off their own
652
00:23:54,849 --> 00:23:56,309
arm the good stuff.
653
00:23:56,929 --> 00:23:58,755
Yikes. But, I think you know what I
654
00:23:58,755 --> 00:24:00,994
mean. The action stuff. The stuff that, is
655
00:24:00,994 --> 00:24:03,015
the promise of the premise of the book.
656
00:24:03,634 --> 00:24:05,555
And as I read this, I wonder if
657
00:24:05,555 --> 00:24:06,855
it might have worked better
658
00:24:07,234 --> 00:24:09,075
if it was structured a little more like
659
00:24:09,075 --> 00:24:10,455
Cheryl Strayed's Wild.
660
00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:12,039
And what she does in that book is
661
00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:12,539
she
662
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,279
is telling the story of her,
663
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,240
you know, almost cross country trek along the
664
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,119
Pacific Crest Trail. So ultimately, it's the same
665
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,860
kind of story. Right? Somebody who's primarily alone
666
00:24:23,494 --> 00:24:25,115
going, through this struggle.
667
00:24:25,494 --> 00:24:27,414
But what she does is she falls in
668
00:24:27,414 --> 00:24:28,394
and out of backstory
669
00:24:28,934 --> 00:24:31,195
as the experiences that she's having
670
00:24:31,815 --> 00:24:34,134
naturally bring them to mind. So it seems
671
00:24:34,134 --> 00:24:35,674
like a more natural way,
672
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,220
to the way that humans actually process experiences.
673
00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:41,920
And it's not quite as jarring to the
674
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,000
reader, I think. So anyway, I'd love to
675
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,599
hear your take on that, especially if you've
676
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:47,519
read a hundred and twenty seven hours. You
677
00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:49,200
can write to me at Brad Reed at
678
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:49,700
bradreedwrites
679
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:52,244
dot com. You can also hit me up
680
00:24:52,244 --> 00:24:52,825
on Twitter.
681
00:24:53,285 --> 00:24:54,984
My handle there is bradreedwrites.
682
00:24:56,164 --> 00:24:57,525
So that's gonna wrap it up for us
683
00:24:57,525 --> 00:24:59,605
this week. I hope that I haven't turned
684
00:24:59,605 --> 00:25:01,684
you off with the news that we might
685
00:25:01,684 --> 00:25:03,605
be wrapping up the podcast in the next
686
00:25:03,605 --> 00:25:06,265
few weeks. Again, that decision hasn't been finalized,
687
00:25:06,740 --> 00:25:08,740
but I do hope you'll subscribe to the
688
00:25:08,740 --> 00:25:10,740
newsletter so we don't lose touch if that
689
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:13,940
is the case. Head on over to bradreedwrites.com,
690
00:25:13,940 --> 00:25:15,880
and you'll see a link for that there.
691
00:25:16,099 --> 00:25:19,140
So until next week, remember the best way
692
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:20,599
to improve your craft
693
00:25:20,954 --> 00:25:21,855
is by writing.
694
00:25:22,234 --> 00:25:23,595
That's what I'm off to go do, and
695
00:25:23,595 --> 00:25:25,034
I hope that you're off to do the
696
00:25:25,034 --> 00:25:26,714
same. Let's get some words on paper this
697
00:25:26,714 --> 00:25:28,634
week, and we'll meet up again next week
698
00:25:28,634 --> 00:25:31,674
for another episode of the Inside Creative Writing
699
00:25:31,674 --> 00:25:32,174
podcast.
700
00:25:33,194 --> 00:25:35,559
Thanks for listening to the Inside inside creative
701
00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,860
writing podcast with your host, writer and educator,
702
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,140
Brad Reed.
703
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,900
We'll be back next week.