Jake Bolster: You know him as the loudest and often lone voice in Congress when it comes to the health of the planet.
Sen. Whitehouse: Simple fact, climate change is real.
Jake Bolster: Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse has stood on the Senate floor for over a decade warning about the dangers of climate change.
Sen. Whitehouse: I rise today for the three hundredth time with my trusty increasingly battered time to wake up chart to try to rouse this chamber to the looming dangers caused by fossil fuel pollution.
Jake Bolster: When he's not talking about climate change in Congress, he's often highlighting the political influence of the fossil fuel industry.
Sen. Whitehouse: We're here today because fossil fuel funded climate disinformation and obstruction is directly causing systemic financial risks to the economy and to the federal budget.
Jake Bolster: To kick off New York City Climate Week, this is a special episode of Inside Climate. I'm Jake Bolster. I'll speak to the Senator about the upcoming midterm elections and messaging on climate.
Sen. Whitehouse: I think you know you gotta talk about the costs and you gotta talk about the corruption. I have a bill for term limits, eighteen years, retroactive, so you start to refresh the court right away.
Jake Bolster: Where and what's really delaying bipartisan action on permitting reform in Congress?
Sen. Whitehouse: The problem has not been my Republican colleagues in the Senate on this. They've actually sometimes been quite helpful. The problem has been in the executive branch. The problem has been cabinet members who break the law to hurt clean energy and help fossil fuels.
Jake Bolster: Our full conversation next on Inside Climate.
Sen. Whitehouse: Hi, Kylie here. We're so glad you're tuning in to the Inside Climate Podcast. Jake and I have been talking with our colleagues across the world, reporters who follow the facts, track the data, and hold the powerful to account as climate change reshapes people's lives. This reporting takes time and resources, and it depends on support from our audience. Inside Climate News is an independent nonprofit newsroom. Our work is free to read, watch, and share, and never behind a paywall. If you like this show and the reporting behind it, Please make a donation today at insideclimate news dot org slash donate. Thank you.
Jake Bolster: Okay, Senator Whitehouse, thank you very much for joining us.
Sen. Whitehouse: Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
Jake Bolster: Sure. So I wanted to start with the midterms, which are only a few weeks away. And in twenty twenty, climate change was an issue that likely cost Republicans the election, according to one analysis. But major democratic think takes like Searchlight Institute argue that you know, the first rule of solving climate change is don't say climate change. Do you feel like this is a winning strategy for Democrats heading into the midterm, or is this gonna backfire?
Sen. Whitehouse: I don't think it's a winning strategy. I think it's a huge lost opportunity. we actually did polling, for instance, in Texas, that showed that ninety-two percent of Texans are concerned about the cost of homeowners insurance. Sixty-six percent of them connect that problem to climate-driven extreme weather. Wow. So this is red state oil patch, Texas. And you got more people concerned about the cost of homeowners insurance than own homes in Texas, which shows how big an issue this has become. And fully two-thirds of voters ascribe it to climate-driven extreme weather. So the public is a mile ahead of where the democratic think tankery and consultant class is. Similarly, here's a good one. In Florida, 46% Of Trump voters think that Florida's home insurance crisis is caused by climate driven, sorry, climate change causing extreme storms and hurricanes. Wow. Even used the double climate change word, and it's still with nearly half of Trump voters. So yeah, we're missing a big, big opportunity. We've never told the story well. Biden refused to mention villains. And in the early stages, there weren't immediate costs. Well, we're through those. Home insurance, groceries, all sorts of costs are way up that can be strongly attributed to climate change. And the public's already there, as the polling numbers just showed. And we've got these two horrible villas: the climate denial fraud operation that the fossil fuel industry runs, and the dark money corruption operation that the fossil fuel industry runs. And wow, how do you not how how does that not become a good story that candidates can successfully tell?
Jake Bolster: Previously, I think you've described Democrats and environmental groups messaging as crap on climate change. What's what's a better way forward on this issue?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think, you know, you gotta talk about the costs and you gotta talk about the corruption. And interestingly, cost and corruption are also the two big buckets for democratic message, at least in the Senate, coming into November. So it's actually really aligned with what we say our key messaging themes are. And you really can't beat it. I mean, you know, when a family gets that dreaded notice of non-renewal and has to go shopping for a new policy, everything gets disrupted and they end up paying more for less. That's a big deal in a family's life. If the premium doubles or triples, that's a really big deal. You start with a big number and you go up 50%, 100%, it's serious. And and people are ready to respond to that argument. Jolly, the our Democratic gubernatorial candidate in Florida, Is running hard on this very theme.
Jake Bolster: I was about to ask, are there other places or races where you see candidates who are successfully linking climate change with those other themes?
Sen. Whitehouse: Yeah, you know, it's a little bit of a geographically sequestered concern. Florida is obviously first and worst, but you know, the Carolinas, we got races in North Carolina and South Carolina, and they've got huge coasts that are having huge problems. So it depends on where you go to address the problem. But even in Iowa, it is a very, very big issue because of the Derecho and the hail storms. You've got Big companies leaving the state. You've got a thirty six percent increase pending. You've got a doubling in the last several years. It's something that Iowa farmers are talking about to each other.
Jake Bolster: Yeah, I mean the scale of the problem, it it just touches every part of the country. So let's talk a little bit now about what might happen after the midterms. if there are significant losses for Republicans in November, do you think that some members of the party might break from Trump and address energy affordability and climate issues in a more bipartisan way, or is meaningful change gonna have to wait for another election?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think the pressure from a good democratic message that points out the villains and points out the corruption can really sting and cause people to back away from being so subservient to their fossil fuel overlords. I think that the cost issue, particularly in the home insurance space, which cascades into mortgages, right? No home insurance, no mortgage. Right, right. And it then cascades into property values. And guess what state lost the most property value last year? Florida. So it's it's actually like happening in real time down the cascade. All of that economic power becomes highly politically salient. And then people like the results. one poll shows that Americans 74 to 10 think that polluter corporations should be made to pay. For the cost of their pollution. How do you walk into a fight seventy four to ten in your favor and chicken out? So
Jake Bolster: What would you do? So if if Democrats regain control of the Senate and and you're you might be next in line to lead the Senate Judiciary Committee or the Environment and Public Works Committee, what's the first oversight hearing you're gonna hold in either of those roles?
Sen. Whitehouse: Well, let's not jump ahead too much. Sure. but I do think that we are now at a stage in the climate battle where things have narrowed to a fairly small focus. The success of the fossil fuel denial fraud operation and dark money corruption operation have caused us to drive by a lot of highway exits that could have helped. Now we're at a point where it is lethal to any chance of climate safety for the fossil fuel industry to keep its free to pollute business model. Right. Wrong morally to pollute for free. It's wrong economically to pollute for free. It's wrong environmentally to pollute for free. And from a climate perspective, it's now fatal. If we let them continue to pollute for free. So back to that 7410, we've got to go meet the public where they are and figure out ways to make the big polluters pay for the cost of the harms that they're causing. And whether that's with a price on pollution or whether that's with the social cost of carbon, or there are a lot of different ways to do that. But we're now at the tipping point where it's either free to pollu the fossil fuel industry. and we fail as a society at protecting ourselves and our, you know, next generation's climate safety, or we fix this and we fix it now and we fix it by making the economic adjustment so that they're not polluting for free any longer.
Jake Bolster: So let me ask you then about Suncore Energy versus Boulder County, this this case before the Supreme Court, 'cause I think that gets at a lot of what you're what you're talking about here. And just just to lay out some background, so this is a case before the Supreme Court. They're gonna hear it in October, and it could decide whether state courts have the jurisdiction to hear climate damage lawsuits against energy companies. These are lawsuits that are brought by, in this case, the county of Boulder, but cities And states across the US are doing this, and they're suing fossil fuel companies for economic damages associated with the rising costs of fixing, you know, the fallout of a wildfire or a hurricane or these other disasters that are associated with climate change. and they would want fossil fuel companies to pay instead of having that burden fall on taxpayers. So I don't think we're gonna get a decision right on this case until 2027. But What do you see as the role of Congress, you know, if the Supreme Court is ruling in the favor of fossil fuel companies? What what does that do for for this this movement you're talking about?
Sen. Whitehouse: Well, let's start with just a quick run through the history of Supreme Court in ruling for fossil fuel companies. I take the position that this is a court that has been captured by special interests by right-wing billionaires, and that it was primarily fossil fuel special interests and right-wing billionaires that did it. And the first thing that they did was to open up dark money in our elections, which the fossil fuel industry pounced on and instantly shut down bipartisanship on climate change. Until Citizens United, there was steady bipartisanship in the Senate on climate change. From the day of that decision forward, bipartisanship was dead. So the Supreme Court helped kill legislative solutions to the climate crisis. Then they went to the Obama Clean Power Plan, and they went and they threw that out in kind of an unprecedented weird decision, but they put it to death. And with that, They put a stake into a regulatory solution to the climate crisis, which leaves us now with the litigation solution to the climate crisis. And that is the last pitched battle we're gonna have. And every indication is that the Supreme Court is gonna obey once again. the interests of the fossil fuel industry and the right-wing capture crowd that tells them what to do through these little flotillas of amicus briefs that they file when they care about the outcome of the case and which they always win when they file. It's right in that lineup of first the Supreme Court killed legislative solutions with dark money, then they killed regulatory solutions with the Clean Power Plan case and the major questions doctrine. And now this gives them a chance to kill off the other solution that allows the for accountability. So we need to do is to legislate very clearly in such a way that the Supreme Court can't weasel its way around what we have done with various doctrines of this, that, or the other, that we make it clear enough that this is now the law. Polluters have to pay their way. And you know, when we get there, then I think we're in in in clear shape. But obviously our stool industry is going to be spending hard and using the filibuster to try to make sure that we can't do that.
Jake Bolster: So there are still legislative options at the federal level, even if this case is ruled in favor of the fossil fuel companies?
Sen. Whitehouse: Yeah, I mean we could do this simply by law, and if the law is clear enough, it's hard for the Supreme Court to butt in and get in the way. What we will have to do is figure a way around a Republican filibuster. The Republican Party is these days essentially the political wing of the fossil fuel industry, so they'll do whatever they're told by the fossil fuel industry. So we have to plan on filibuster and how do we work through that and around that. And there are ways to do it that are beyond the scope of this interview that involve parliamentary questions like the quorum call and this, that and the other. It's doable, but we have to plan to do it, execute the plan, and proceed with discipline and effort.
Jake Bolster: I wonder how something like the climate superfund laws in Vermont or New York play into that. Is there utility in having a handful of states with these laws or does it have to come from the federal level this
Sen. Whitehouse: This account. Absolutely as useful. their so-called laboratories of democracy. And of course, knowing what the situation is with the Supreme Court, the fossil fuel industry and its stooges, even at the Department of Justice now, the Trump Department of So-Called Justice, are suing to block those laws from going into effect even at the state level. Right. So the fossil fuel political weaponry. is being deployed against those laws. And that could be the next awful thing that the Supreme Court does.
Jake Bolster: earlier you were talking about the corruption that's stemming from the fossil fuel industries you called it and how difficult it's made lawmaking in Congress. You've spent a decade on the Senate floor calling the fossil fuel industries political influence corruption. What about that has worked and what do you feel like has fallen short?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think what fell short was first of all I was too often alone but When an issue is not immediately salient to a voter, when it's not actually affecting them in their day-to-day life right now, then it's way, way easier to spin and lie about. And the fossil fuel industry has done a really magnificent job of false narratives, fake science, the whole nonsense. Of trying to give people a way to think that they don't have to do anything about climate change, that it's a someday problem. Well, it ain't a someday problem any longer when Florida's insurance market is collapsing and two percent of Texans think that this is a cost problem for their families. So it's real and it's just a matter of, you know, now I think connecting those dots. I think talking about the corruption very specifically also helps. Can I give an example? So Trump wants everybody to think that he wants to block wind because he hates windmills and that he's mad about it because of his stupid Scottish golf resort. No, that is not what is happening here. What is happening here is that the Trump blockade of low-cost clean energy that would otherwise be on the grid serving customers when it's not there. That forces the electric grid to climb up the generation stack to more and more expensive units to meet that same demand. And those more expensive units are fossil fuel units. And the most expensive unit running at any given time usually sets the price for the whole grid, not just for its electrons, but for every electron on the grid at that time. So the jump in cost when you go to a more expensive fossil fuel unit. is huge for ratepayers. And all of that money goes to the fossil fuel industry because they're the marginal units that now run that wouldn't beforehand. It is a huge corrupt money pump out of the public's pockets and into the pockets of Trump's big fossil fuel donors. Now, when people get their electric bills and they see them going up and they're mad about it, if they're just mad at the electric company, we have not done our jobs. If they understand that they were set up to pay more so that their money could go to Trump's big fossil fuel donors, that's a really powerful corruption story. And it has the added advantage of being true. Right.
Jake Bolster: To go back very quickly to the Supreme Court, and how it's you know, you're saying it's captured by fossil fuel interest. How important is it to you for there to be some sort of Supreme Court reform? should Democrats be looking at expanding the court if they win control of Congress or regain the presidency in the future?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think that there are two things that we need to do. One is the Supreme Court needs to have a proper ethics program. It is ridiculous that the highest court in the land, our temple to the rule of law, won't abide for itself by the most basic tenet of rule of law, which is fact-finding. What happened? They won't ask. Justice Thomas, what happened in his conversations with his wife about the January sixth case? What happened with his tax payments to the IRS for the income that he failed to disclose on his judicial forms from the forgiveness of the two hundred seventy thousand dollar motor coach loan?
Jake Bolster: I'm sorry, just who who's not asking really quickly?
Sen. Whitehouse: nobody is asking. I mean, the public is asking, I'm asking, but there's no entity in the Supreme Court that gets to ask. Right? If you complain about something that I have done as a senator, there's a Senate ethics committee and they will go out and do fact finding. If a judge on a court of appeals you think has done you wrong, you can file a complaint and there's an investigation if it's credible, and there's fact finding about what actually took place. The only place in all of government in which there's no fact finding when there's an ethics concern is the nine members of the Supreme Court. It is ridiculous. So we need to fix that. And then I have a bill for term limits, eighteen years, retroactive. So you start to refresh the court right away.
Jake Bolster: Okay, so I have a question here about Venezuela. Back in January, you and five other senators opened an investigation into whether oil and gas companies got advanced notice of the military action in Venezuela. Now that deal's been that deal's been signed, a hundred year concession on sixty five billion barrels of reserves, with the Pentagon holding an equity stake in the company running it. Does that make your investigation more urgent, or does the deal itself answer the question you were asking?
Sen. Whitehouse: No, it makes it even more essential that we understand all of this. what the deal as it comes together looks like is that we went in and essentially took over Venezuela, running it through the same administration as Maduro, just the next person down. Sending off the person who actually won the election and the Nobel Peace Prize. So she doesn't get to come in and run the country that elected her, and then seized Venezuela's oil reserves for ourselves and created a choke point for Venezuela because so much of its revenue comes from those reserves. So we can make Venezuelan government dance to our tune turning up. And down the spigot of their oil reserves. It looks like an old-fashioned, like, colonial era raid where you go in for the bauxite, you go in for the copper, the gold, you go in for the oil, and you just control the government and take it over. So what the oil industry knew about that and when they knew it becomes even more important because if they were complicit in this even beforehand, that's a very different story than if. Trump just went ahead and did it and then said, Okay, fed accompli, now we've got this. Here's what I need you to do. Those are two different stories. They're both bad stories for the fossil fuel industry, but it's way worse if they were complicit from the very beginning, you know, rubbing their hands in the background saying, Yes, yes, yes, go get us that oil. We're we're with you.
Jake Bolster: Okay. another congressional topic here. We have permitting reform. So we write a lot about it inside climate news, energy of all kinds, and we hear a lot at that, you know, energy, we need more energy on the grid online faster. And there've been attempts at permitting reform in Congress under the second Trump administration, but a lot of deadlines have passed, most recently in August, and now there's a goal to get it done in September. You've said the hold up is Republicans and it's the administration. What does the administration have to do differently for you to support permitting reform?
Sen. Whitehouse: Well, first we have to get to a bill. And Senator Heinrich and I are in negotiation with Chairman Capineau and Chairman Lee of Environment, Public Works and Energy, respectively. And I would say that the negotiations are going well. I think we're I hope within a week or two perhaps of being able to wrap it up and have something to show to our colleagues. And if it's a good bill that frees up a lot more energy, particularly low-cost energy, then I think it can get a strong bipartisan vote. The problem has not been my Republican colleagues in the Senate on this. They've actually sometimes been quite helpful. The problem has been in the executive branch. The problem has been cabinet members who break the law. To hurt clean energy and help fossil fuel, who lie that the clean energy is more expensive than the fossil fuel, at least when they're on Fox News or X. They don't lie when they're in court because they know they'll get busted, so they shut up then, but they lie about it everywhere else. And you now even have the Department of War, so-called, blocking wind turbines that would be automatic, where there's Five five judges, including a Trump judge, blew up the so-called national security theory of why offshore wind had a problem. And so the offshore wind units that we fought over are now going forward, but they're still blocking even inshore wind. How does a inshore land-based wind farm in, let's say, Iowa, create a national security risk? It's not even at the border. So the lying the illegal obstruction, all the mischief that they're doing for their fossil fuel donors, that we need a strong signal is gonna stop.
Jake Bolster: Yeah. I you know, I wish we had more time because I'd love to hear about how the your Republican colleagues have been helpful. 'cause we don't often hear about bipartisan action on this sort of thing. But for our final question, I just wanted to ask about Climate Week. This is an event that's been going on for a while. but you know, it's starting to feel at least to me a little more performative and than actually substantive. What needs to change to th to make this event more meaningful and impactful?
Sen. Whitehouse: You know, it it remains to be seen. I think a lot of climate stuff has been performative all along. My least favorite word in the climate space is ambition. I'm sick the damn death of people's ambition. Action is what we need, not some damned ambition that may never come to pass. So, like, are we serious? Are we gonna end the free to pollute business model? Are we taking seriously the potential economic catastrophe? Of the cascade from insurance failure to mortgage failure to property values crash. A word from the chief economist to Freddie Mack, not me, crash, to a full-on economic recession. Are we changing the narrative so that we're talking about costs and talking about the corruption and the villainy of the climate denial fraud and the dark money operation? If we're doing those things, then we're finally making some ground. But if it's just a big, you know. cocktail party chat where people talk about climate this and climate that and don't actually do stuff, then you're right. Then it's a big big fat waste of time.
Jake Bolster: All right. Well, I think that's all we have time for, Senator. Thank you very much for joining us.
Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to Inside Climate. For more of our reporting, please visit InsideClimateNews.org and sign up for our newsletters, all of which are free to read because we want to make our work available to anyone, wherever they are. You can also follow us on your favorite social platforms and share our podcast with others. If you love what you read, see, and hear, please consider donating to support our nonprofit newsroom. Because we rely on the support of our audience to make our reporting and this podcast possible. We'll be back in two weeks with more climate stories from our reporters all across the world.
Sen. Whitehouse: Simple fact, climate change is real.
Jake Bolster: Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse has stood on the Senate floor for over a decade warning about the dangers of climate change.
Sen. Whitehouse: I rise today for the three hundredth time with my trusty increasingly battered time to wake up chart to try to rouse this chamber to the looming dangers caused by fossil fuel pollution.
Jake Bolster: When he's not talking about climate change in Congress, he's often highlighting the political influence of the fossil fuel industry.
Sen. Whitehouse: We're here today because fossil fuel funded climate disinformation and obstruction is directly causing systemic financial risks to the economy and to the federal budget.
Jake Bolster: To kick off New York City Climate Week, this is a special episode of Inside Climate. I'm Jake Bolster. I'll speak to the Senator about the upcoming midterm elections and messaging on climate.
Sen. Whitehouse: I think you know you gotta talk about the costs and you gotta talk about the corruption. I have a bill for term limits, eighteen years, retroactive, so you start to refresh the court right away.
Jake Bolster: Where and what's really delaying bipartisan action on permitting reform in Congress?
Sen. Whitehouse: The problem has not been my Republican colleagues in the Senate on this. They've actually sometimes been quite helpful. The problem has been in the executive branch. The problem has been cabinet members who break the law to hurt clean energy and help fossil fuels.
Jake Bolster: Our full conversation next on Inside Climate.
Sen. Whitehouse: Hi, Kylie here. We're so glad you're tuning in to the Inside Climate Podcast. Jake and I have been talking with our colleagues across the world, reporters who follow the facts, track the data, and hold the powerful to account as climate change reshapes people's lives. This reporting takes time and resources, and it depends on support from our audience. Inside Climate News is an independent nonprofit newsroom. Our work is free to read, watch, and share, and never behind a paywall. If you like this show and the reporting behind it, Please make a donation today at insideclimate news dot org slash donate. Thank you.
Jake Bolster: Okay, Senator Whitehouse, thank you very much for joining us.
Sen. Whitehouse: Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
Jake Bolster: Sure. So I wanted to start with the midterms, which are only a few weeks away. And in twenty twenty, climate change was an issue that likely cost Republicans the election, according to one analysis. But major democratic think takes like Searchlight Institute argue that you know, the first rule of solving climate change is don't say climate change. Do you feel like this is a winning strategy for Democrats heading into the midterm, or is this gonna backfire?
Sen. Whitehouse: I don't think it's a winning strategy. I think it's a huge lost opportunity. we actually did polling, for instance, in Texas, that showed that ninety-two percent of Texans are concerned about the cost of homeowners insurance. Sixty-six percent of them connect that problem to climate-driven extreme weather. Wow. So this is red state oil patch, Texas. And you got more people concerned about the cost of homeowners insurance than own homes in Texas, which shows how big an issue this has become. And fully two-thirds of voters ascribe it to climate-driven extreme weather. So the public is a mile ahead of where the democratic think tankery and consultant class is. Similarly, here's a good one. In Florida, 46% Of Trump voters think that Florida's home insurance crisis is caused by climate driven, sorry, climate change causing extreme storms and hurricanes. Wow. Even used the double climate change word, and it's still with nearly half of Trump voters. So yeah, we're missing a big, big opportunity. We've never told the story well. Biden refused to mention villains. And in the early stages, there weren't immediate costs. Well, we're through those. Home insurance, groceries, all sorts of costs are way up that can be strongly attributed to climate change. And the public's already there, as the polling numbers just showed. And we've got these two horrible villas: the climate denial fraud operation that the fossil fuel industry runs, and the dark money corruption operation that the fossil fuel industry runs. And wow, how do you not how how does that not become a good story that candidates can successfully tell?
Jake Bolster: Previously, I think you've described Democrats and environmental groups messaging as crap on climate change. What's what's a better way forward on this issue?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think, you know, you gotta talk about the costs and you gotta talk about the corruption. And interestingly, cost and corruption are also the two big buckets for democratic message, at least in the Senate, coming into November. So it's actually really aligned with what we say our key messaging themes are. And you really can't beat it. I mean, you know, when a family gets that dreaded notice of non-renewal and has to go shopping for a new policy, everything gets disrupted and they end up paying more for less. That's a big deal in a family's life. If the premium doubles or triples, that's a really big deal. You start with a big number and you go up 50%, 100%, it's serious. And and people are ready to respond to that argument. Jolly, the our Democratic gubernatorial candidate in Florida, Is running hard on this very theme.
Jake Bolster: I was about to ask, are there other places or races where you see candidates who are successfully linking climate change with those other themes?
Sen. Whitehouse: Yeah, you know, it's a little bit of a geographically sequestered concern. Florida is obviously first and worst, but you know, the Carolinas, we got races in North Carolina and South Carolina, and they've got huge coasts that are having huge problems. So it depends on where you go to address the problem. But even in Iowa, it is a very, very big issue because of the Derecho and the hail storms. You've got Big companies leaving the state. You've got a thirty six percent increase pending. You've got a doubling in the last several years. It's something that Iowa farmers are talking about to each other.
Jake Bolster: Yeah, I mean the scale of the problem, it it just touches every part of the country. So let's talk a little bit now about what might happen after the midterms. if there are significant losses for Republicans in November, do you think that some members of the party might break from Trump and address energy affordability and climate issues in a more bipartisan way, or is meaningful change gonna have to wait for another election?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think the pressure from a good democratic message that points out the villains and points out the corruption can really sting and cause people to back away from being so subservient to their fossil fuel overlords. I think that the cost issue, particularly in the home insurance space, which cascades into mortgages, right? No home insurance, no mortgage. Right, right. And it then cascades into property values. And guess what state lost the most property value last year? Florida. So it's it's actually like happening in real time down the cascade. All of that economic power becomes highly politically salient. And then people like the results. one poll shows that Americans 74 to 10 think that polluter corporations should be made to pay. For the cost of their pollution. How do you walk into a fight seventy four to ten in your favor and chicken out? So
Jake Bolster: What would you do? So if if Democrats regain control of the Senate and and you're you might be next in line to lead the Senate Judiciary Committee or the Environment and Public Works Committee, what's the first oversight hearing you're gonna hold in either of those roles?
Sen. Whitehouse: Well, let's not jump ahead too much. Sure. but I do think that we are now at a stage in the climate battle where things have narrowed to a fairly small focus. The success of the fossil fuel denial fraud operation and dark money corruption operation have caused us to drive by a lot of highway exits that could have helped. Now we're at a point where it is lethal to any chance of climate safety for the fossil fuel industry to keep its free to pollute business model. Right. Wrong morally to pollute for free. It's wrong economically to pollute for free. It's wrong environmentally to pollute for free. And from a climate perspective, it's now fatal. If we let them continue to pollute for free. So back to that 7410, we've got to go meet the public where they are and figure out ways to make the big polluters pay for the cost of the harms that they're causing. And whether that's with a price on pollution or whether that's with the social cost of carbon, or there are a lot of different ways to do that. But we're now at the tipping point where it's either free to pollu the fossil fuel industry. and we fail as a society at protecting ourselves and our, you know, next generation's climate safety, or we fix this and we fix it now and we fix it by making the economic adjustment so that they're not polluting for free any longer.
Jake Bolster: So let me ask you then about Suncore Energy versus Boulder County, this this case before the Supreme Court, 'cause I think that gets at a lot of what you're what you're talking about here. And just just to lay out some background, so this is a case before the Supreme Court. They're gonna hear it in October, and it could decide whether state courts have the jurisdiction to hear climate damage lawsuits against energy companies. These are lawsuits that are brought by, in this case, the county of Boulder, but cities And states across the US are doing this, and they're suing fossil fuel companies for economic damages associated with the rising costs of fixing, you know, the fallout of a wildfire or a hurricane or these other disasters that are associated with climate change. and they would want fossil fuel companies to pay instead of having that burden fall on taxpayers. So I don't think we're gonna get a decision right on this case until 2027. But What do you see as the role of Congress, you know, if the Supreme Court is ruling in the favor of fossil fuel companies? What what does that do for for this this movement you're talking about?
Sen. Whitehouse: Well, let's start with just a quick run through the history of Supreme Court in ruling for fossil fuel companies. I take the position that this is a court that has been captured by special interests by right-wing billionaires, and that it was primarily fossil fuel special interests and right-wing billionaires that did it. And the first thing that they did was to open up dark money in our elections, which the fossil fuel industry pounced on and instantly shut down bipartisanship on climate change. Until Citizens United, there was steady bipartisanship in the Senate on climate change. From the day of that decision forward, bipartisanship was dead. So the Supreme Court helped kill legislative solutions to the climate crisis. Then they went to the Obama Clean Power Plan, and they went and they threw that out in kind of an unprecedented weird decision, but they put it to death. And with that, They put a stake into a regulatory solution to the climate crisis, which leaves us now with the litigation solution to the climate crisis. And that is the last pitched battle we're gonna have. And every indication is that the Supreme Court is gonna obey once again. the interests of the fossil fuel industry and the right-wing capture crowd that tells them what to do through these little flotillas of amicus briefs that they file when they care about the outcome of the case and which they always win when they file. It's right in that lineup of first the Supreme Court killed legislative solutions with dark money, then they killed regulatory solutions with the Clean Power Plan case and the major questions doctrine. And now this gives them a chance to kill off the other solution that allows the for accountability. So we need to do is to legislate very clearly in such a way that the Supreme Court can't weasel its way around what we have done with various doctrines of this, that, or the other, that we make it clear enough that this is now the law. Polluters have to pay their way. And you know, when we get there, then I think we're in in in clear shape. But obviously our stool industry is going to be spending hard and using the filibuster to try to make sure that we can't do that.
Jake Bolster: So there are still legislative options at the federal level, even if this case is ruled in favor of the fossil fuel companies?
Sen. Whitehouse: Yeah, I mean we could do this simply by law, and if the law is clear enough, it's hard for the Supreme Court to butt in and get in the way. What we will have to do is figure a way around a Republican filibuster. The Republican Party is these days essentially the political wing of the fossil fuel industry, so they'll do whatever they're told by the fossil fuel industry. So we have to plan on filibuster and how do we work through that and around that. And there are ways to do it that are beyond the scope of this interview that involve parliamentary questions like the quorum call and this, that and the other. It's doable, but we have to plan to do it, execute the plan, and proceed with discipline and effort.
Jake Bolster: I wonder how something like the climate superfund laws in Vermont or New York play into that. Is there utility in having a handful of states with these laws or does it have to come from the federal level this
Sen. Whitehouse: This account. Absolutely as useful. their so-called laboratories of democracy. And of course, knowing what the situation is with the Supreme Court, the fossil fuel industry and its stooges, even at the Department of Justice now, the Trump Department of So-Called Justice, are suing to block those laws from going into effect even at the state level. Right. So the fossil fuel political weaponry. is being deployed against those laws. And that could be the next awful thing that the Supreme Court does.
Jake Bolster: earlier you were talking about the corruption that's stemming from the fossil fuel industries you called it and how difficult it's made lawmaking in Congress. You've spent a decade on the Senate floor calling the fossil fuel industries political influence corruption. What about that has worked and what do you feel like has fallen short?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think what fell short was first of all I was too often alone but When an issue is not immediately salient to a voter, when it's not actually affecting them in their day-to-day life right now, then it's way, way easier to spin and lie about. And the fossil fuel industry has done a really magnificent job of false narratives, fake science, the whole nonsense. Of trying to give people a way to think that they don't have to do anything about climate change, that it's a someday problem. Well, it ain't a someday problem any longer when Florida's insurance market is collapsing and two percent of Texans think that this is a cost problem for their families. So it's real and it's just a matter of, you know, now I think connecting those dots. I think talking about the corruption very specifically also helps. Can I give an example? So Trump wants everybody to think that he wants to block wind because he hates windmills and that he's mad about it because of his stupid Scottish golf resort. No, that is not what is happening here. What is happening here is that the Trump blockade of low-cost clean energy that would otherwise be on the grid serving customers when it's not there. That forces the electric grid to climb up the generation stack to more and more expensive units to meet that same demand. And those more expensive units are fossil fuel units. And the most expensive unit running at any given time usually sets the price for the whole grid, not just for its electrons, but for every electron on the grid at that time. So the jump in cost when you go to a more expensive fossil fuel unit. is huge for ratepayers. And all of that money goes to the fossil fuel industry because they're the marginal units that now run that wouldn't beforehand. It is a huge corrupt money pump out of the public's pockets and into the pockets of Trump's big fossil fuel donors. Now, when people get their electric bills and they see them going up and they're mad about it, if they're just mad at the electric company, we have not done our jobs. If they understand that they were set up to pay more so that their money could go to Trump's big fossil fuel donors, that's a really powerful corruption story. And it has the added advantage of being true. Right.
Jake Bolster: To go back very quickly to the Supreme Court, and how it's you know, you're saying it's captured by fossil fuel interest. How important is it to you for there to be some sort of Supreme Court reform? should Democrats be looking at expanding the court if they win control of Congress or regain the presidency in the future?
Sen. Whitehouse: I think that there are two things that we need to do. One is the Supreme Court needs to have a proper ethics program. It is ridiculous that the highest court in the land, our temple to the rule of law, won't abide for itself by the most basic tenet of rule of law, which is fact-finding. What happened? They won't ask. Justice Thomas, what happened in his conversations with his wife about the January sixth case? What happened with his tax payments to the IRS for the income that he failed to disclose on his judicial forms from the forgiveness of the two hundred seventy thousand dollar motor coach loan?
Jake Bolster: I'm sorry, just who who's not asking really quickly?
Sen. Whitehouse: nobody is asking. I mean, the public is asking, I'm asking, but there's no entity in the Supreme Court that gets to ask. Right? If you complain about something that I have done as a senator, there's a Senate ethics committee and they will go out and do fact finding. If a judge on a court of appeals you think has done you wrong, you can file a complaint and there's an investigation if it's credible, and there's fact finding about what actually took place. The only place in all of government in which there's no fact finding when there's an ethics concern is the nine members of the Supreme Court. It is ridiculous. So we need to fix that. And then I have a bill for term limits, eighteen years, retroactive. So you start to refresh the court right away.
Jake Bolster: Okay, so I have a question here about Venezuela. Back in January, you and five other senators opened an investigation into whether oil and gas companies got advanced notice of the military action in Venezuela. Now that deal's been that deal's been signed, a hundred year concession on sixty five billion barrels of reserves, with the Pentagon holding an equity stake in the company running it. Does that make your investigation more urgent, or does the deal itself answer the question you were asking?
Sen. Whitehouse: No, it makes it even more essential that we understand all of this. what the deal as it comes together looks like is that we went in and essentially took over Venezuela, running it through the same administration as Maduro, just the next person down. Sending off the person who actually won the election and the Nobel Peace Prize. So she doesn't get to come in and run the country that elected her, and then seized Venezuela's oil reserves for ourselves and created a choke point for Venezuela because so much of its revenue comes from those reserves. So we can make Venezuelan government dance to our tune turning up. And down the spigot of their oil reserves. It looks like an old-fashioned, like, colonial era raid where you go in for the bauxite, you go in for the copper, the gold, you go in for the oil, and you just control the government and take it over. So what the oil industry knew about that and when they knew it becomes even more important because if they were complicit in this even beforehand, that's a very different story than if. Trump just went ahead and did it and then said, Okay, fed accompli, now we've got this. Here's what I need you to do. Those are two different stories. They're both bad stories for the fossil fuel industry, but it's way worse if they were complicit from the very beginning, you know, rubbing their hands in the background saying, Yes, yes, yes, go get us that oil. We're we're with you.
Jake Bolster: Okay. another congressional topic here. We have permitting reform. So we write a lot about it inside climate news, energy of all kinds, and we hear a lot at that, you know, energy, we need more energy on the grid online faster. And there've been attempts at permitting reform in Congress under the second Trump administration, but a lot of deadlines have passed, most recently in August, and now there's a goal to get it done in September. You've said the hold up is Republicans and it's the administration. What does the administration have to do differently for you to support permitting reform?
Sen. Whitehouse: Well, first we have to get to a bill. And Senator Heinrich and I are in negotiation with Chairman Capineau and Chairman Lee of Environment, Public Works and Energy, respectively. And I would say that the negotiations are going well. I think we're I hope within a week or two perhaps of being able to wrap it up and have something to show to our colleagues. And if it's a good bill that frees up a lot more energy, particularly low-cost energy, then I think it can get a strong bipartisan vote. The problem has not been my Republican colleagues in the Senate on this. They've actually sometimes been quite helpful. The problem has been in the executive branch. The problem has been cabinet members who break the law. To hurt clean energy and help fossil fuel, who lie that the clean energy is more expensive than the fossil fuel, at least when they're on Fox News or X. They don't lie when they're in court because they know they'll get busted, so they shut up then, but they lie about it everywhere else. And you now even have the Department of War, so-called, blocking wind turbines that would be automatic, where there's Five five judges, including a Trump judge, blew up the so-called national security theory of why offshore wind had a problem. And so the offshore wind units that we fought over are now going forward, but they're still blocking even inshore wind. How does a inshore land-based wind farm in, let's say, Iowa, create a national security risk? It's not even at the border. So the lying the illegal obstruction, all the mischief that they're doing for their fossil fuel donors, that we need a strong signal is gonna stop.
Jake Bolster: Yeah. I you know, I wish we had more time because I'd love to hear about how the your Republican colleagues have been helpful. 'cause we don't often hear about bipartisan action on this sort of thing. But for our final question, I just wanted to ask about Climate Week. This is an event that's been going on for a while. but you know, it's starting to feel at least to me a little more performative and than actually substantive. What needs to change to th to make this event more meaningful and impactful?
Sen. Whitehouse: You know, it it remains to be seen. I think a lot of climate stuff has been performative all along. My least favorite word in the climate space is ambition. I'm sick the damn death of people's ambition. Action is what we need, not some damned ambition that may never come to pass. So, like, are we serious? Are we gonna end the free to pollute business model? Are we taking seriously the potential economic catastrophe? Of the cascade from insurance failure to mortgage failure to property values crash. A word from the chief economist to Freddie Mack, not me, crash, to a full-on economic recession. Are we changing the narrative so that we're talking about costs and talking about the corruption and the villainy of the climate denial fraud and the dark money operation? If we're doing those things, then we're finally making some ground. But if it's just a big, you know. cocktail party chat where people talk about climate this and climate that and don't actually do stuff, then you're right. Then it's a big big fat waste of time.
Jake Bolster: All right. Well, I think that's all we have time for, Senator. Thank you very much for joining us.
Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to Inside Climate. For more of our reporting, please visit InsideClimateNews.org and sign up for our newsletters, all of which are free to read because we want to make our work available to anyone, wherever they are. You can also follow us on your favorite social platforms and share our podcast with others. If you love what you read, see, and hear, please consider donating to support our nonprofit newsroom. Because we rely on the support of our audience to make our reporting and this podcast possible. We'll be back in two weeks with more climate stories from our reporters all across the world.
