Gretchen Hoak: Welcome to the Informed Reporting Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gretchen Hoke, former local TV journalist, turned researcher and journalism professor. The 25th anniversary of 9-11 was this year, and for anyone working in journalism that day, it's one they have not likely forgotten. This is especially true for my next guest, photojournalist David Hanshew. David was at the Twin Towers on 9-11 and caught a Pulitzer nominated photo of the second plane hitting the South Tower. Before he was severely injured when the South Tower collapsed. That day changed his life and his career, but also gave him a platform for furthering the conversation about the need for journalists to be taken care of in the wake of tragedy. David has spent 30 years as a photojournalist, and today he talks about his experiences that day, looking forward from 9 11, why journalists need to take care of themselves, and his passion for the continued importance of photojournalism.
speaker-1: David Henshu, thank you so much for agreeing to talk with me today. I really appreciate your willingness to be on the podcast. Why don't you just start off, tell the audience just a little bit about yourself, what you are up to now in terms of of journalism and a little bit about your career.
speaker-0: Gretchen, thanks so much. it's interesting when you asked to talk about your career, cause you're only as good as your last picture. In in photojournalism or in journalism, you're only as good as the last story that you wrote or the last exclusive that you broke. so I have a more than three decade career as a newspaper photojournalist in New York. I picked up a camera when I was thirteen. and started running around taking photographs for a local community newspaper where I would photograph the assignment, run back to my apartment, develop the film, make a print in the bathroom, and you really have to I really have to thank my parents. two bedroom, one bathroom apartment, and I took over the bathroom as a dark room often Or three, four hours at a time, that's true love and support as a parent.
speaker-1: Absolutely.
speaker-0: So fast forward a bunch of years, I'm back to freelancing after a twenty eight year career at the New York Daily News. I've worked for newspapers and wire services from around the world, and I'm fortunate that my camera has taken me places that mere mortals often don't get to tread. I'm I am not an athlete, but I've been on the field at Yankee Stadium. I'm not a dancer, for sure I'm not a dancer. And I've been on stage at Radio City with the Rockets. And my camera has literally taken me to Antarctica camping overnight and it has taken me under the ice above the Arctic Circle, going diving for for very, very large crabs. So yeah, it's it's it's been quite a career and it keeps going, hopefully for a while.
speaker-1: That is amazing. I I I can imagine you've got quite the quite the set of stories to tell in terms of of places that you've been. So I think it's just really amazing that you've had a career as long as it's been and that you've gotten to see and do so many interesting things because of that.
speaker-0: So it but it's interesting also to note that the best journalists, best photojournalists aren't talking about themselves, but it's it's being allowed into other people's lives and sharing their stories. And that has that has just been an amazing run. the people who have trusted us with the time to spend with them, the people who have trusted us with their secrets, their challenges, their problems, their issues, with the hope that good journalism will correct a wrong or let other people know about things that are important. yeah, it's just when done correctly, journalism is an amazing tool.
speaker-1: Well, one of the things that one of the parts of your career that you are sort of known for or most known for is the fact that you were there on September eleventh and were injured in the the building collapse and It's been twenty-five years since September eleventh. How do you think your life as a photo journalist changed as a result of that day? what type of photojournalist are you now versus what you were then? Is there a change there?
speaker-0: Sure, that's a that's a really fair question. first of all, I don't want to be known as a one trick pony. I I don't want my obituary to be David Hanshew, who was seriously injured at the World Trade Center while photographing. in the same way that Eddie Adams, an amazing photojournalist, amazing educator who started many great programs for taking new younger photographers, integrating them into a week-long experience called the Eddie Adams Workshop. but Eddie won the Pulitzer Prize for a photograph taken during the Vietnam War of a gunpoint execution of a of a general. And one of the things he said was he did not want his obituary to read Eddie Adams, who took the Pulitzer Prize winning picture. And of course, Eddie's obituary started that way. So how how did 9-11 affect me? So it took me nine months to learn how to walk again, which was a great challenge then. But most importantly, it forced my hand in making a decision that I really wasn't ready to make. And my career had been spent chasing paramedics, emergency medical technicians, firefighters, police officers, as they were saving lives and and rescuing people throughout New York City. And The morning of September twelfth, twenty one, I said, I never want to photograph anybody dead or dying again. So that was quite a challenge. And what do you do with somebody who spent decades getting that adrenaline high from making a brilliant spot news photograph? You know, how do you how how do you handle a change like that as a manager who's bringing somebody back to work? And how does the person who's making that change handle handle that? So I I I got put on the food and feature beat. And except for one negative experience attempting to Photograph chocolate moose. it it's it's been just amazing. the men and women who work in the kitchen, who don't have the notoriety or the PR machine that Bobby Flay has, or, you know, some other of Gordon Ramsey, these famous celebrity chefs. but just like photojournalists, There are a couple of people who become really famous, and there are a couple of people who toil every day creating great art for local news newspapers in small markets. And there are chefs that have a local restaurant who turn out great meals every day. And the satisfaction that both people in the kitchen and people with cameras get about creating and making other people happy. Is remarkably similar. So I'm honored to be allowed behind the swinging doors. be surprised at how many chefs have asked for photo tips. And of course, I love to cook and I love to eat. And how come my red onions are always so bitter? And somebody will come up with three different solutions for for so it's been a mutually beneficial relationship. And then You know, post-9 eleven world, I started writing more. I mean, I went to university and trained as a journalist, not a photojournalist. I want to think that I wrote the best captions of any photographer out there because of my journalism training. But My injury allowed me to segue into writing again. And I started doing travel writing. And that's where you know I I was working for the eighth largest newspaper in the country at that point. the opportunities to literally travel around the world every week. I I do they they just never stopped coming. So What I learned about travel writing is there are a lot of writers who started taking their own pictures because they get paid a little bit more. So there were plenty of writers who took photographs. There weren't many photographers who wrote their own stories. And I'd like to think that the images and the words complemented each other pretty well. I'm not traveling all that much anymore. some of the work is on my website, Flyingmanate.com. And and of course my Instagram today gives me the greatest satisfaction. It gives me the same satisfaction as being on the front page of an actual tabloid dead tree edition newspaper back in the day. And it's not about the number of people who are hitting likes. It's about the number number of people who are looking at your stuff. And it's getting harder and harder with the algorithms to find the photographers that you want to follow and actually see their work. But when you do, it's just you know, I'm lucky to have friend friends with cameras around the world and watching the work that they create every day is remarkable.
speaker-1: I love the the flying manatee by the way. I was when I saw that I I said to myself, I have to ask where did where did Flying Manatee come from in terms of your your website and your Instagram?
speaker-0: So I I I wanted something that referenced the travel work that I was doing. flying just about everything else was taken. you know, so going back to branding, which I think is as important for photographers as it is for any other freelance market. the ability to brand myself as Flying Manatee.com, Flying Manatee on Instagram, Flying Manate Manatee on Twitter. I think I'm Flying Manatee on Threads, which I don't use all that often. So there were no others, so I I am the Flying Manatee.
speaker-1: That's great. the the experience in 9-11, and not only did it sort of force you into a career shift that that turned out to be a really great one for you, you did also start to get involved in being a little more vocal in terms of protecting journalists, What kind of motive you was it your own experience that motivated you to start to down that path a little bit?
speaker-0: So actually I'm not sure that nine eleven was the watershed moment that gave me a little more of a I think it gave me more of a platform. It my interest in journalism and trauma and how journalists affect the people we cover and how we are affected by covering these stories started way before then. nineteen ninety nine, I was in the first class of Dart. Fellows, that's D-A-R-T, and the Dart Center for Journalism and Trauma. Means an awful lot to me. it was started by a psychiatrist out of Michigan named Frank Awkberg, worked with a counselor named Freema Engel out of Montreal, and a journalist named Robert Frank, also out of Montreal. And Robert noticed that. You know, an armed robbery in Canada back in the nineties was an exceedingly unusual event. And going as a journalist to cover bank tellers who were who were the victims of an armed robbery, he realized that they were completely and totally traumatized. Somehow got Freeman involved and Freema and Robert and then Frank and you know, sometimes the earth and the the earth and the sun line up and you get an eclipse. And this was an eclipse when it came to in a good way, w when it came to the idea that journalists are affected by the stories that we cover. So nineteen ninety nine I was in the first class of Dart fellows, bunch of mid-career professionals who had seen a lot. Again, two years before before nine eleven, Learning about trauma, learning with professionals who they were psychiatrists, psychologists, they were music people, music therapists, all kinds of people in the mental mental health field who worked to make other people feel better. And one of the things that they acknowledged were that journalists were an underserved population. And flash forward to June of 2001, under the auspices of DART, I was president of the National Press Photographers Association then. And and we trained a dozen photojournalists to be peer counselors. And you know, police officers, firefighters, the British Royal Marines have an amazing program for leadership for For their first line supervisors, how to take care of their soldiers and their staff involved in traumatic situations. And ISTSS, the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, brought us into their conference, taught us a lot about trauma. June of 2001, we trained a dozen photographers, never thinking that September of 2001. The world would be tilted off its axis.
speaker-1: That's amazing. just the timing of that is is is amazing. you said you were part of the first art class in nineteen ninety nine. So had you already had experiences doing journalistic work that you found were, you know, affecting you in the the trauma that you were seeing? Is that part of what kind of got you involved way back when?
speaker-0: Sure, sure. There was the absolute reality that so there of course are always the big stories. I covered Columbine as a parachuting in photojournalist in the office in April, I believe, of nineteen ninety-three. And a school shooting was unheard of back then. Okay. Thirteen students, two gunmen killed. Get on a plane, go to Littleton, Colorado, spend nine days out there totally immersed in telling the story of this small community and how they were changed. You know, you don't realize it at the time, but but being involved with other people's griefs grief does affect us. I went to Honduras. After there was a fire in New York City at a social club, the Happy Land Social Club, killed 80 some odd people. I get on a plane, I go to Honduras, and tell the story of a whole bunch of immigrants who were working in New York City, went out on a Saturday night. to to dance, to drink, to enjoy each other, and wound up being shipped back in in caskets to to their homeland. And you know, that has to affect us for sure. And of course the 9-11s, but every community has had their school shootings. But it's not just a really big scary story as as my friend and co-worker Adam Lisberg used to used to call them, but it's the cumulative effect of going to a car crash for a local paper, even a weekly newspaper in a small market, where you know the kid on the bike who had been who had been hurt. You knew the driver of the car because they were your neighbor. You knew the cop and the paramedic who showed up or the EMTs who were volunteers whose kids went to school with your kids. And doing that every single day, not even going to the traumatic situation, but as the new reporter at a newspaper, you were sent to cover cops in courts. And going to sit in on a trial where graphic photos of evidence were shown, you know. What do you what do you say to a twenty-year-old kid who's doing that for a first time and has never really experienced death? So yeah, the the cumulative effect of of these little stories also affect journalists. So Dart was the perfect place to meet with similar minded people who understood that maybe Camry should be labeled with a Questionnary note-laid cigarettes are today. caution repeated use around traumatic situations might adversely affect your ability to process reality.
speaker-1: Did your time with the Dart Center and working as an Awkward fellow do you think that changed the way you approached your work even prior to nine eleven?
speaker-0: I think being a parent changed my ability to shove a camera into anybody's face. We have the technological tools today that we don't have to be right up next to somebody. We can be twenty, thirty, forty feet away and use a telephoto lens. when we do the door knock. And for those who are not in journalism or were just starting in journalism, the door knock is the most ugly, horrible thing that any journalist could have to do, where for for no good reason, nobody sent out a press release asking for coverage. something bad has happened to somebody and you go and knock on their door to find out how they're feeling. so I think it was a cumulative effect of Doing the door knocks and and and and being in immersed in this in this trauma. It wasn't September 11th that was my watershed moment. It wasn't it it it wasn't happy land, it it it was just the understanding that you know we need to be respectful for people who were covering, and we also need to watch out for each other.
speaker-1: You had talked about how once you came back after 9-11, you did kind of switch focus, did more features, did you still end up covering anything, that that was a little bit more emotional or could have been, on that sort of trauma scale, or have you really been able to focus on kind of nothing? related to to something emotional or or potentially traumatic.
speaker-0: Yeah, so I I made a very concerted effort to avoid any of those situations. And I know that there are many people after nine eleven who wanted to make that change. Some people left journalism, some people moved out of New York City. other people were afraid to raise their hand and say, I don't want to do this. Of course they thought they'd be taken off of the big story. And Having the physical injury on September 11th, I think gave me the street creds that allowed me to raise my hand and say, no Moss, I'm just not doing that anymore. other people were concerned about the career repercussions about doing that. yeah, I I I've avoided breaking news photography, which is kinda interesting. It it doesn't mean that my ears don't perk up when I hear lots of sirens anymore. And and I might or might not put on a scanner every once in a while, you know, a police radio or a fire radio. But it it it it means that I I'm I'm the decision maker when it comes to what I want to pay witness to or not pay witness to. And and in this case it's I I I go back to what I said on September twelfth, two thousand one. I really don't ever want to photograph anybody dead or dying again.
speaker-1: Do you think if you had not been injured and like you said, it gave you sort of that str that street cred almost or that ability to be able to say, Nope, I'm not gonna do this? Do you think if you hadn't been injured, you would have had, whether it's courage or, you know, strength or whatever, do you think you would have of been able to say, I don't wanna, you know, do these types of stories anymore?
speaker-0: I think the injury made my employers realize that they had to respect my wishes. I know that there were many other photojournalists who felt the same way, but I wasn't hurt there, you were, I couldn't say anything. And I'm like, yeah, you can, because hurt takes on many different forms. And I'm not saying this in any negative or or diminutive way, but you're entitled to heal your brain much as you would a a broken leg or burns or inhalation injuries. And it just takes sometimes a lot of strength and the backing of a a strong community around you, strong support from friends and family and coworkers to be able to say, yeah, nope, don't want to do that.
speaker-1: You've also been as part of your career, you've taught at NYU, taught photojournalism at NYU for a number of years. Do you bring any of your experiences from September eleventh into the classroom? Does it inform your teaching in any way?
speaker-0: So ironically, four days ago we had that discussion on news photography in my photojournalism class. So your timing of the question is perfect. And and it's really interesting. you know, my kids, and they're my kids, weren't even a thought in the creation process of their parents when this happened. There was not one student in my class that was born in 2001, which of course made me feel ancient. Yes. But out outside of that, I might as well be talking about the Civil War or Vietnam or World War Two, 'cause it's ancient history to to people who weren't weren't born there. But I think I planted a seed, and I've done this in every class for the last bunch of years. I spoke about journalism trauma before nine eleven. I didn't have the street creds and the pictures to go with it. But it was very, very important for me that I I believe that every institution that teaches journalism should do a one-day mini course. For their graduating seniors. And some of the topics that need to be considered are the business of journalism. Okay. You're gonna freelance. How are you gonna make that work for you? What kind of records do you have to keep to assure that you could take your purchases off your taxes? And by the way, friends, family, and kids. Don't do your own taxes. Have somebody who knows what they're doing take care of that for you. It's worth the couple hundred bucks to pay it. But we need to do a business practices mini session. Okay. How do you license your work? How do you set your rates? Okay. What's the return on your investment? Business always asks that question. But do we? w we need to talk about Daily rates, resale rates, copyright. Okay? If we don't give our students a full understanding of copyright and licensing rights, then we are doing a disservice as instructors in journalism today. But in the same way, we need to do a mini-session on trauma, on you're gonna be freelancing, okay? Twenty five, thirty years ago, there were people, Hearst Newspapers was a prime example of people who really cared about their staff back in the day, and they went around doing instructional programs on emotional care and journalism. I was fortunate enough to have been brought in to talk to Hearst journalists in newsrooms around the country back in the early 2000s. Many places had employee assistance programs. we can you wanna talk to somebody, talk to the employee assistance program. They were great with traditional family trauma. My fourteen-year-old seems to be spending a lot of time in their room. Fantastic, but they weren't geared to take care of what we as journalists were paying witness to. I had a managed care professional who told me that she was responsible for making sure after I got hurt at the Trade Center that I got everything I needed to heal. And I looked at her, I said, No, you're not. You're here to make sure you don't spend too much money putting me back together. So after we got over that little speed bump, I said, I want a counselor. I want to talk to somebody. we've never done that before. well, there's never been two large buildings attacked by people in airplanes. There's never been three thousand people killed in a terrorist attack in the United States before. And I think it's time that you start looking outside of the box. So she agreed. She sent me to a husband and wife team, very nice people. The husband was the psychiatrist who offered to prescribed medication. The wife was a psychologist who offered to talk with me. And their field of expertise, ready? Ready for this? Their field of expertise was overweight teenagers. I was I I I they meant very well. I was a big boned kid, as you know, many, many years, but I clearly wasn't a teenager. body image was not my concern. And I I'm sure they did a lot of good work for many kids, but that was not the person who I needed to talk to. I found a retiring counselor from the VA, from the Veterans Administration, who had dealt with soldiers returning from conflict for 30 plus years. And it wasn't unlike what I had gone through and many other journalists had gone to experience a terror experiencing a terror attack in New York City. So that was the good match. That was the right combination. And while I had many, many great physical therapists, orthopaedists, chiropractors, breathing specialists, I I I had a A whole fleet of of doctors that were working on putting Humpty Dumpty back together. Again, this completed the puzzle. This was the last piece that was necessary that helped get David's brain back in whack.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And it's so interesting because in talking with folks for this podcast and talking with folks who still work in the business, that seems to be like the one hitch that you have to find a counselor who understands that you are someone who goes towards the danger by choice and that you are exposing yourself to these traumatic incidents as a part of your work. And if they they kind of need to understand that in order to really be able to help you. So like you said, working people who work with soldiers, people who work with the police, with the fire, they get it in terms of what a journalist might be going through.
speaker-0: I nobody knows us better than us, whether us our rescue workers or or or you know, I mean even even emotional care people have their counselor. I mean, how how long can you be immersed in everybody's problem without it affecting you? So there's no reason it it it's another reason that peer counseling works best. I can walk into a newsroom in California, I can talk to a photographer in Japan. We have the same complaints about our managers, we have our same interests in in telling the truth with our with our cameras. We have the same the same way that we talk about equipment. Okay. Well, my Nikon does this. Well, my Sony doesn't do that. I don't have to worry about that. But the same way that we talk about equipment with passion, we need to be talking about taking care of ourselves and members of our subspecies. And we do have the tools that are needed as journalists, to become really good peer counselors. Okay. As a journalist going out to tell stories, we ask people questions that get them to open up, to relax, and to talk with us. But more importantly than asking the questions, we get to listen to what they have to say, to pick up on the most salient quote, to pick up on maybe a crack in the voice, or to pick up on how somebody's holding themselves or what they're doing with their hands while they're answering your question. And these are key to being a successful listener. For other photojournalists and for other journalists. We do this for a living. There's no reason that we can't do it for others.
speaker-1: And a lot of the research will will show too that journalists just really like to talk to other journalists. When it comes to sharing their experiences, the people they really want to share with are the their peers, the people who understand it, the people who get it. And like you said, speak the same language. So it's completely understandable.
speaker-0: But you know what? When tour guides get together, they talk about tour guide stuff. When chefs get together, they they talk about which of their knives work well. What do you do when you have a waiter who shows up when they feel like it, not at their assigned shift? You know, my baby brother's a dentist. They talk about filling cavities in the challenges of doing that in COVID, in tw you know, even in 2026. So People talk about what's closest to them, whether it's it w we have the we need to take advantage of the opportunity to look after each other.
speaker-1: Do you think over time in you know since nine eleven and and as you know you have continued to sort of advocate for for support for journalists, do you think things have gotten better? Do you think it's a conversation that more people are willing to have?
speaker-0: I think people are more willing to talk about it. The geography has changed so dramatically in the last twenty-five years in the newspaper business. the number of layoffs, the number of jobs have decreased dramatically. We have mitig I mean, we have migrated from a staff based coverage system to a freelance economy. Okay, we are cameras for hire, we are notepads for hire, we are pencils and typewriters and word processes for hire and That's why it's become necessary for fraternal organizations to spearhead the care of their members. the Asian American Journalists Association, Hispanic journalists, black journalists, these organizations need to take the lead for looking after each other because their memberships. Are their membership is now comprised of freelance writers, editors, reporters, camera people. So so the the employee assistance program that dealt poorly with with people thirty years ago doesn't exist anymore because there's no audience for it.
speaker-1: you're right in that that sort of freelance economy, if you will, there's no newsroom now, right? For those freelancers. There's no place for them to go to commiserate. There's no sort of safety net, if you will, from a peer standpoint. So it's th that leaves them up to, you know, up to their own devices in terms of how to figure out how to talk about what they see and how they feel about it.
speaker-0: Yep, absolutely. Look, when we trans transitioned from film-based photography to digital photography, we went from everybody had to go get their film processed. We looked at film on a light table through a loop. We sent it into a dark room to make a print. And then we put a caption on the actual physical print. And during that time, if I know that you I knew that you had gone to a bad car crash, you had seen a fire that you photographed where there were many people hurt. There was opportunity to lean over the light table and have a conversation with you. There ain't no light table anymore. Okay. And even newspapers that have staff writers and photographers often don't have a physical office anymore. The New York Daily News, where I spent 28 years as a staff photographer, does not have a newsroom any longer. So where are you going to have these conversations? I keep going back to what I said a couple minutes ago. It's up to us. It's up to fraternal organizations. It's up to professional organizations to look after their people or at least encourage people and empower people and educate people as to how to do it.
speaker-1: Well, David, it's been twenty five years since nine eleven. What is it like to kind of look back and knowing that it's been so long now? I know I was I was working in local news when it happened and it in my mind it it wasn't twenty five years ago, but I wasn't nearly as close to it as as you were. What is it like knowing that it has been twenty five years and and what does that feel like kind of at this milestone, I guess?
speaker-0: So we put a lot of emphasis on noteworthy anniversaries. The the first anniversary of this, the fifth anniversary of this, the twenty-fifth anniversary of this. It's no people no different than people who are married one year, five years, ten years, twenty-five years. You said to look back on twenty-five years. And there's no doubt that it has framed me, it has shaped me, it has changed me. But I want to look forward to the next twenty-five years. I want to see, you know, I I'm aging. I'm not as fast as I was. There are physical limitations to what I can do, but I still want the opportunity to pick up a camera and meet people and to tell their stories. And whether you're doing that in a kitchen or a newsroom. Or in a classroom. I still want to take advantage of those opportunities. committing photojournalism is a passion. And empowering the next journalism empowering the next generation of photojournalists is as important as the last twenty-five years or the last thirty years or the last forty years or Put it this way, I have my fiftieth high school reunion coming up. And I'm I'm a big fan of live music. I love to go to a concert, and I've been saying more and more often as I go and see some of these bands, who are all these old people in the audience? And everybody realize it's it's me. So yep, there are some great memories. There there's a been some amazing experience. There have been some amazing experiences that I've had because of my camera. but what can I do today? Is what I really want to pardon the pun, focus on.
speaker-1: Well, that leads me to my last question. Why do you think photo jo journalism is so important? You clearly have such a passion for it. You are amazing at it. You're so gifted. Why do you think that photojournalism is so important and like you said, so important to continue supporting those folks who want to get into it?
speaker-0: So you could read a story, but people drop off after the first four paragraphs. You can watch a TV news program, but after about 45 seconds, you lose interest. Having an image that captures in one five hundredth of a second something that's tangible, even though you're looking at it on your mobile device, where where you can swipe to the next story and the next story, but go back. Because it's calling to you and it's it's it's begging you to pay attention, to imagine not only what you see in the frame, but to then question what was going on around that frame that you're looking at. What was happening the minute before and what was happening for the 10 minutes afterwards? I I think photojournalism is so important... delivered at one five hundredth of a second at a time.
speaker-1: Well, thank you so much for your time today and for navigating through all of our technical challenges. I really enjoyed talking with you today and and thank you so much for being willing to give me your time.
speaker-0: Thanks for the invite, Christian.
Gretchen Hoak: You've been listening to the Informed Reporting Podcast with me, Dr. Gretchen Hoak. If you liked what you heard today, please like and follow us on Spotify or Apple podcasts and feel free to leave us a positive review. To keep the conversation going and for more information and content between shows, Please follow us on Instagram @ informedreportingpodcast. Our music is Casual Fridays by 1000 Handz, used through a Creative Commons license from Free Music Archive. This podcast is produced independently of my teaching and research roles in the School of Media and Journalism at Kent State University. The information shared here reflects my views and those of my guests and is not reflective of the views or official policies of my institution. If you have any questions or ideas for guests or topics, please email us at informedreportingpodcast@gmail.com. ⁓
speaker-1: David Henshu, thank you so much for agreeing to talk with me today. I really appreciate your willingness to be on the podcast. Why don't you just start off, tell the audience just a little bit about yourself, what you are up to now in terms of of journalism and a little bit about your career.
speaker-0: Gretchen, thanks so much. it's interesting when you asked to talk about your career, cause you're only as good as your last picture. In in photojournalism or in journalism, you're only as good as the last story that you wrote or the last exclusive that you broke. so I have a more than three decade career as a newspaper photojournalist in New York. I picked up a camera when I was thirteen. and started running around taking photographs for a local community newspaper where I would photograph the assignment, run back to my apartment, develop the film, make a print in the bathroom, and you really have to I really have to thank my parents. two bedroom, one bathroom apartment, and I took over the bathroom as a dark room often Or three, four hours at a time, that's true love and support as a parent.
speaker-1: Absolutely.
speaker-0: So fast forward a bunch of years, I'm back to freelancing after a twenty eight year career at the New York Daily News. I've worked for newspapers and wire services from around the world, and I'm fortunate that my camera has taken me places that mere mortals often don't get to tread. I'm I am not an athlete, but I've been on the field at Yankee Stadium. I'm not a dancer, for sure I'm not a dancer. And I've been on stage at Radio City with the Rockets. And my camera has literally taken me to Antarctica camping overnight and it has taken me under the ice above the Arctic Circle, going diving for for very, very large crabs. So yeah, it's it's it's been quite a career and it keeps going, hopefully for a while.
speaker-1: That is amazing. I I I can imagine you've got quite the quite the set of stories to tell in terms of of places that you've been. So I think it's just really amazing that you've had a career as long as it's been and that you've gotten to see and do so many interesting things because of that.
speaker-0: So it but it's interesting also to note that the best journalists, best photojournalists aren't talking about themselves, but it's it's being allowed into other people's lives and sharing their stories. And that has that has just been an amazing run. the people who have trusted us with the time to spend with them, the people who have trusted us with their secrets, their challenges, their problems, their issues, with the hope that good journalism will correct a wrong or let other people know about things that are important. yeah, it's just when done correctly, journalism is an amazing tool.
speaker-1: Well, one of the things that one of the parts of your career that you are sort of known for or most known for is the fact that you were there on September eleventh and were injured in the the building collapse and It's been twenty-five years since September eleventh. How do you think your life as a photo journalist changed as a result of that day? what type of photojournalist are you now versus what you were then? Is there a change there?
speaker-0: Sure, that's a that's a really fair question. first of all, I don't want to be known as a one trick pony. I I don't want my obituary to be David Hanshew, who was seriously injured at the World Trade Center while photographing. in the same way that Eddie Adams, an amazing photojournalist, amazing educator who started many great programs for taking new younger photographers, integrating them into a week-long experience called the Eddie Adams Workshop. but Eddie won the Pulitzer Prize for a photograph taken during the Vietnam War of a gunpoint execution of a of a general. And one of the things he said was he did not want his obituary to read Eddie Adams, who took the Pulitzer Prize winning picture. And of course, Eddie's obituary started that way. So how how did 9-11 affect me? So it took me nine months to learn how to walk again, which was a great challenge then. But most importantly, it forced my hand in making a decision that I really wasn't ready to make. And my career had been spent chasing paramedics, emergency medical technicians, firefighters, police officers, as they were saving lives and and rescuing people throughout New York City. And The morning of September twelfth, twenty one, I said, I never want to photograph anybody dead or dying again. So that was quite a challenge. And what do you do with somebody who spent decades getting that adrenaline high from making a brilliant spot news photograph? You know, how do you how how do you handle a change like that as a manager who's bringing somebody back to work? And how does the person who's making that change handle handle that? So I I I got put on the food and feature beat. And except for one negative experience attempting to Photograph chocolate moose. it it's it's been just amazing. the men and women who work in the kitchen, who don't have the notoriety or the PR machine that Bobby Flay has, or, you know, some other of Gordon Ramsey, these famous celebrity chefs. but just like photojournalists, There are a couple of people who become really famous, and there are a couple of people who toil every day creating great art for local news newspapers in small markets. And there are chefs that have a local restaurant who turn out great meals every day. And the satisfaction that both people in the kitchen and people with cameras get about creating and making other people happy. Is remarkably similar. So I'm honored to be allowed behind the swinging doors. be surprised at how many chefs have asked for photo tips. And of course, I love to cook and I love to eat. And how come my red onions are always so bitter? And somebody will come up with three different solutions for for so it's been a mutually beneficial relationship. And then You know, post-9 eleven world, I started writing more. I mean, I went to university and trained as a journalist, not a photojournalist. I want to think that I wrote the best captions of any photographer out there because of my journalism training. But My injury allowed me to segue into writing again. And I started doing travel writing. And that's where you know I I was working for the eighth largest newspaper in the country at that point. the opportunities to literally travel around the world every week. I I do they they just never stopped coming. So What I learned about travel writing is there are a lot of writers who started taking their own pictures because they get paid a little bit more. So there were plenty of writers who took photographs. There weren't many photographers who wrote their own stories. And I'd like to think that the images and the words complemented each other pretty well. I'm not traveling all that much anymore. some of the work is on my website, Flyingmanate.com. And and of course my Instagram today gives me the greatest satisfaction. It gives me the same satisfaction as being on the front page of an actual tabloid dead tree edition newspaper back in the day. And it's not about the number of people who are hitting likes. It's about the number number of people who are looking at your stuff. And it's getting harder and harder with the algorithms to find the photographers that you want to follow and actually see their work. But when you do, it's just you know, I'm lucky to have friend friends with cameras around the world and watching the work that they create every day is remarkable.
speaker-1: I love the the flying manatee by the way. I was when I saw that I I said to myself, I have to ask where did where did Flying Manatee come from in terms of your your website and your Instagram?
speaker-0: So I I I wanted something that referenced the travel work that I was doing. flying just about everything else was taken. you know, so going back to branding, which I think is as important for photographers as it is for any other freelance market. the ability to brand myself as Flying Manatee.com, Flying Manatee on Instagram, Flying Manate Manatee on Twitter. I think I'm Flying Manatee on Threads, which I don't use all that often. So there were no others, so I I am the Flying Manatee.
speaker-1: That's great. the the experience in 9-11, and not only did it sort of force you into a career shift that that turned out to be a really great one for you, you did also start to get involved in being a little more vocal in terms of protecting journalists, What kind of motive you was it your own experience that motivated you to start to down that path a little bit?
speaker-0: So actually I'm not sure that nine eleven was the watershed moment that gave me a little more of a I think it gave me more of a platform. It my interest in journalism and trauma and how journalists affect the people we cover and how we are affected by covering these stories started way before then. nineteen ninety nine, I was in the first class of Dart. Fellows, that's D-A-R-T, and the Dart Center for Journalism and Trauma. Means an awful lot to me. it was started by a psychiatrist out of Michigan named Frank Awkberg, worked with a counselor named Freema Engel out of Montreal, and a journalist named Robert Frank, also out of Montreal. And Robert noticed that. You know, an armed robbery in Canada back in the nineties was an exceedingly unusual event. And going as a journalist to cover bank tellers who were who were the victims of an armed robbery, he realized that they were completely and totally traumatized. Somehow got Freeman involved and Freema and Robert and then Frank and you know, sometimes the earth and the the earth and the sun line up and you get an eclipse. And this was an eclipse when it came to in a good way, w when it came to the idea that journalists are affected by the stories that we cover. So nineteen ninety nine I was in the first class of Dart fellows, bunch of mid-career professionals who had seen a lot. Again, two years before before nine eleven, Learning about trauma, learning with professionals who they were psychiatrists, psychologists, they were music people, music therapists, all kinds of people in the mental mental health field who worked to make other people feel better. And one of the things that they acknowledged were that journalists were an underserved population. And flash forward to June of 2001, under the auspices of DART, I was president of the National Press Photographers Association then. And and we trained a dozen photojournalists to be peer counselors. And you know, police officers, firefighters, the British Royal Marines have an amazing program for leadership for For their first line supervisors, how to take care of their soldiers and their staff involved in traumatic situations. And ISTSS, the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, brought us into their conference, taught us a lot about trauma. June of 2001, we trained a dozen photographers, never thinking that September of 2001. The world would be tilted off its axis.
speaker-1: That's amazing. just the timing of that is is is amazing. you said you were part of the first art class in nineteen ninety nine. So had you already had experiences doing journalistic work that you found were, you know, affecting you in the the trauma that you were seeing? Is that part of what kind of got you involved way back when?
speaker-0: Sure, sure. There was the absolute reality that so there of course are always the big stories. I covered Columbine as a parachuting in photojournalist in the office in April, I believe, of nineteen ninety-three. And a school shooting was unheard of back then. Okay. Thirteen students, two gunmen killed. Get on a plane, go to Littleton, Colorado, spend nine days out there totally immersed in telling the story of this small community and how they were changed. You know, you don't realize it at the time, but but being involved with other people's griefs grief does affect us. I went to Honduras. After there was a fire in New York City at a social club, the Happy Land Social Club, killed 80 some odd people. I get on a plane, I go to Honduras, and tell the story of a whole bunch of immigrants who were working in New York City, went out on a Saturday night. to to dance, to drink, to enjoy each other, and wound up being shipped back in in caskets to to their homeland. And you know, that has to affect us for sure. And of course the 9-11s, but every community has had their school shootings. But it's not just a really big scary story as as my friend and co-worker Adam Lisberg used to used to call them, but it's the cumulative effect of going to a car crash for a local paper, even a weekly newspaper in a small market, where you know the kid on the bike who had been who had been hurt. You knew the driver of the car because they were your neighbor. You knew the cop and the paramedic who showed up or the EMTs who were volunteers whose kids went to school with your kids. And doing that every single day, not even going to the traumatic situation, but as the new reporter at a newspaper, you were sent to cover cops in courts. And going to sit in on a trial where graphic photos of evidence were shown, you know. What do you what do you say to a twenty-year-old kid who's doing that for a first time and has never really experienced death? So yeah, the the cumulative effect of of these little stories also affect journalists. So Dart was the perfect place to meet with similar minded people who understood that maybe Camry should be labeled with a Questionnary note-laid cigarettes are today. caution repeated use around traumatic situations might adversely affect your ability to process reality.
speaker-1: Did your time with the Dart Center and working as an Awkward fellow do you think that changed the way you approached your work even prior to nine eleven?
speaker-0: I think being a parent changed my ability to shove a camera into anybody's face. We have the technological tools today that we don't have to be right up next to somebody. We can be twenty, thirty, forty feet away and use a telephoto lens. when we do the door knock. And for those who are not in journalism or were just starting in journalism, the door knock is the most ugly, horrible thing that any journalist could have to do, where for for no good reason, nobody sent out a press release asking for coverage. something bad has happened to somebody and you go and knock on their door to find out how they're feeling. so I think it was a cumulative effect of Doing the door knocks and and and and being in immersed in this in this trauma. It wasn't September 11th that was my watershed moment. It wasn't it it it wasn't happy land, it it it was just the understanding that you know we need to be respectful for people who were covering, and we also need to watch out for each other.
speaker-1: You had talked about how once you came back after 9-11, you did kind of switch focus, did more features, did you still end up covering anything, that that was a little bit more emotional or could have been, on that sort of trauma scale, or have you really been able to focus on kind of nothing? related to to something emotional or or potentially traumatic.
speaker-0: Yeah, so I I made a very concerted effort to avoid any of those situations. And I know that there are many people after nine eleven who wanted to make that change. Some people left journalism, some people moved out of New York City. other people were afraid to raise their hand and say, I don't want to do this. Of course they thought they'd be taken off of the big story. And Having the physical injury on September 11th, I think gave me the street creds that allowed me to raise my hand and say, no Moss, I'm just not doing that anymore. other people were concerned about the career repercussions about doing that. yeah, I I I've avoided breaking news photography, which is kinda interesting. It it doesn't mean that my ears don't perk up when I hear lots of sirens anymore. And and I might or might not put on a scanner every once in a while, you know, a police radio or a fire radio. But it it it it means that I I'm I'm the decision maker when it comes to what I want to pay witness to or not pay witness to. And and in this case it's I I I go back to what I said on September twelfth, two thousand one. I really don't ever want to photograph anybody dead or dying again.
speaker-1: Do you think if you had not been injured and like you said, it gave you sort of that str that street cred almost or that ability to be able to say, Nope, I'm not gonna do this? Do you think if you hadn't been injured, you would have had, whether it's courage or, you know, strength or whatever, do you think you would have of been able to say, I don't wanna, you know, do these types of stories anymore?
speaker-0: I think the injury made my employers realize that they had to respect my wishes. I know that there were many other photojournalists who felt the same way, but I wasn't hurt there, you were, I couldn't say anything. And I'm like, yeah, you can, because hurt takes on many different forms. And I'm not saying this in any negative or or diminutive way, but you're entitled to heal your brain much as you would a a broken leg or burns or inhalation injuries. And it just takes sometimes a lot of strength and the backing of a a strong community around you, strong support from friends and family and coworkers to be able to say, yeah, nope, don't want to do that.
speaker-1: You've also been as part of your career, you've taught at NYU, taught photojournalism at NYU for a number of years. Do you bring any of your experiences from September eleventh into the classroom? Does it inform your teaching in any way?
speaker-0: So ironically, four days ago we had that discussion on news photography in my photojournalism class. So your timing of the question is perfect. And and it's really interesting. you know, my kids, and they're my kids, weren't even a thought in the creation process of their parents when this happened. There was not one student in my class that was born in 2001, which of course made me feel ancient. Yes. But out outside of that, I might as well be talking about the Civil War or Vietnam or World War Two, 'cause it's ancient history to to people who weren't weren't born there. But I think I planted a seed, and I've done this in every class for the last bunch of years. I spoke about journalism trauma before nine eleven. I didn't have the street creds and the pictures to go with it. But it was very, very important for me that I I believe that every institution that teaches journalism should do a one-day mini course. For their graduating seniors. And some of the topics that need to be considered are the business of journalism. Okay. You're gonna freelance. How are you gonna make that work for you? What kind of records do you have to keep to assure that you could take your purchases off your taxes? And by the way, friends, family, and kids. Don't do your own taxes. Have somebody who knows what they're doing take care of that for you. It's worth the couple hundred bucks to pay it. But we need to do a business practices mini session. Okay. How do you license your work? How do you set your rates? Okay. What's the return on your investment? Business always asks that question. But do we? w we need to talk about Daily rates, resale rates, copyright. Okay? If we don't give our students a full understanding of copyright and licensing rights, then we are doing a disservice as instructors in journalism today. But in the same way, we need to do a mini-session on trauma, on you're gonna be freelancing, okay? Twenty five, thirty years ago, there were people, Hearst Newspapers was a prime example of people who really cared about their staff back in the day, and they went around doing instructional programs on emotional care and journalism. I was fortunate enough to have been brought in to talk to Hearst journalists in newsrooms around the country back in the early 2000s. Many places had employee assistance programs. we can you wanna talk to somebody, talk to the employee assistance program. They were great with traditional family trauma. My fourteen-year-old seems to be spending a lot of time in their room. Fantastic, but they weren't geared to take care of what we as journalists were paying witness to. I had a managed care professional who told me that she was responsible for making sure after I got hurt at the Trade Center that I got everything I needed to heal. And I looked at her, I said, No, you're not. You're here to make sure you don't spend too much money putting me back together. So after we got over that little speed bump, I said, I want a counselor. I want to talk to somebody. we've never done that before. well, there's never been two large buildings attacked by people in airplanes. There's never been three thousand people killed in a terrorist attack in the United States before. And I think it's time that you start looking outside of the box. So she agreed. She sent me to a husband and wife team, very nice people. The husband was the psychiatrist who offered to prescribed medication. The wife was a psychologist who offered to talk with me. And their field of expertise, ready? Ready for this? Their field of expertise was overweight teenagers. I was I I I they meant very well. I was a big boned kid, as you know, many, many years, but I clearly wasn't a teenager. body image was not my concern. And I I'm sure they did a lot of good work for many kids, but that was not the person who I needed to talk to. I found a retiring counselor from the VA, from the Veterans Administration, who had dealt with soldiers returning from conflict for 30 plus years. And it wasn't unlike what I had gone through and many other journalists had gone to experience a terror experiencing a terror attack in New York City. So that was the good match. That was the right combination. And while I had many, many great physical therapists, orthopaedists, chiropractors, breathing specialists, I I I had a A whole fleet of of doctors that were working on putting Humpty Dumpty back together. Again, this completed the puzzle. This was the last piece that was necessary that helped get David's brain back in whack.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And it's so interesting because in talking with folks for this podcast and talking with folks who still work in the business, that seems to be like the one hitch that you have to find a counselor who understands that you are someone who goes towards the danger by choice and that you are exposing yourself to these traumatic incidents as a part of your work. And if they they kind of need to understand that in order to really be able to help you. So like you said, working people who work with soldiers, people who work with the police, with the fire, they get it in terms of what a journalist might be going through.
speaker-0: I nobody knows us better than us, whether us our rescue workers or or or you know, I mean even even emotional care people have their counselor. I mean, how how long can you be immersed in everybody's problem without it affecting you? So there's no reason it it it's another reason that peer counseling works best. I can walk into a newsroom in California, I can talk to a photographer in Japan. We have the same complaints about our managers, we have our same interests in in telling the truth with our with our cameras. We have the same the same way that we talk about equipment. Okay. Well, my Nikon does this. Well, my Sony doesn't do that. I don't have to worry about that. But the same way that we talk about equipment with passion, we need to be talking about taking care of ourselves and members of our subspecies. And we do have the tools that are needed as journalists, to become really good peer counselors. Okay. As a journalist going out to tell stories, we ask people questions that get them to open up, to relax, and to talk with us. But more importantly than asking the questions, we get to listen to what they have to say, to pick up on the most salient quote, to pick up on maybe a crack in the voice, or to pick up on how somebody's holding themselves or what they're doing with their hands while they're answering your question. And these are key to being a successful listener. For other photojournalists and for other journalists. We do this for a living. There's no reason that we can't do it for others.
speaker-1: And a lot of the research will will show too that journalists just really like to talk to other journalists. When it comes to sharing their experiences, the people they really want to share with are the their peers, the people who understand it, the people who get it. And like you said, speak the same language. So it's completely understandable.
speaker-0: But you know what? When tour guides get together, they talk about tour guide stuff. When chefs get together, they they talk about which of their knives work well. What do you do when you have a waiter who shows up when they feel like it, not at their assigned shift? You know, my baby brother's a dentist. They talk about filling cavities in the challenges of doing that in COVID, in tw you know, even in 2026. So People talk about what's closest to them, whether it's it w we have the we need to take advantage of the opportunity to look after each other.
speaker-1: Do you think over time in you know since nine eleven and and as you know you have continued to sort of advocate for for support for journalists, do you think things have gotten better? Do you think it's a conversation that more people are willing to have?
speaker-0: I think people are more willing to talk about it. The geography has changed so dramatically in the last twenty-five years in the newspaper business. the number of layoffs, the number of jobs have decreased dramatically. We have mitig I mean, we have migrated from a staff based coverage system to a freelance economy. Okay, we are cameras for hire, we are notepads for hire, we are pencils and typewriters and word processes for hire and That's why it's become necessary for fraternal organizations to spearhead the care of their members. the Asian American Journalists Association, Hispanic journalists, black journalists, these organizations need to take the lead for looking after each other because their memberships. Are their membership is now comprised of freelance writers, editors, reporters, camera people. So so the the employee assistance program that dealt poorly with with people thirty years ago doesn't exist anymore because there's no audience for it.
speaker-1: you're right in that that sort of freelance economy, if you will, there's no newsroom now, right? For those freelancers. There's no place for them to go to commiserate. There's no sort of safety net, if you will, from a peer standpoint. So it's th that leaves them up to, you know, up to their own devices in terms of how to figure out how to talk about what they see and how they feel about it.
speaker-0: Yep, absolutely. Look, when we trans transitioned from film-based photography to digital photography, we went from everybody had to go get their film processed. We looked at film on a light table through a loop. We sent it into a dark room to make a print. And then we put a caption on the actual physical print. And during that time, if I know that you I knew that you had gone to a bad car crash, you had seen a fire that you photographed where there were many people hurt. There was opportunity to lean over the light table and have a conversation with you. There ain't no light table anymore. Okay. And even newspapers that have staff writers and photographers often don't have a physical office anymore. The New York Daily News, where I spent 28 years as a staff photographer, does not have a newsroom any longer. So where are you going to have these conversations? I keep going back to what I said a couple minutes ago. It's up to us. It's up to fraternal organizations. It's up to professional organizations to look after their people or at least encourage people and empower people and educate people as to how to do it.
speaker-1: Well, David, it's been twenty five years since nine eleven. What is it like to kind of look back and knowing that it's been so long now? I know I was I was working in local news when it happened and it in my mind it it wasn't twenty five years ago, but I wasn't nearly as close to it as as you were. What is it like knowing that it has been twenty five years and and what does that feel like kind of at this milestone, I guess?
speaker-0: So we put a lot of emphasis on noteworthy anniversaries. The the first anniversary of this, the fifth anniversary of this, the twenty-fifth anniversary of this. It's no people no different than people who are married one year, five years, ten years, twenty-five years. You said to look back on twenty-five years. And there's no doubt that it has framed me, it has shaped me, it has changed me. But I want to look forward to the next twenty-five years. I want to see, you know, I I'm aging. I'm not as fast as I was. There are physical limitations to what I can do, but I still want the opportunity to pick up a camera and meet people and to tell their stories. And whether you're doing that in a kitchen or a newsroom. Or in a classroom. I still want to take advantage of those opportunities. committing photojournalism is a passion. And empowering the next journalism empowering the next generation of photojournalists is as important as the last twenty-five years or the last thirty years or the last forty years or Put it this way, I have my fiftieth high school reunion coming up. And I'm I'm a big fan of live music. I love to go to a concert, and I've been saying more and more often as I go and see some of these bands, who are all these old people in the audience? And everybody realize it's it's me. So yep, there are some great memories. There there's a been some amazing experience. There have been some amazing experiences that I've had because of my camera. but what can I do today? Is what I really want to pardon the pun, focus on.
speaker-1: Well, that leads me to my last question. Why do you think photo jo journalism is so important? You clearly have such a passion for it. You are amazing at it. You're so gifted. Why do you think that photojournalism is so important and like you said, so important to continue supporting those folks who want to get into it?
speaker-0: So you could read a story, but people drop off after the first four paragraphs. You can watch a TV news program, but after about 45 seconds, you lose interest. Having an image that captures in one five hundredth of a second something that's tangible, even though you're looking at it on your mobile device, where where you can swipe to the next story and the next story, but go back. Because it's calling to you and it's it's it's begging you to pay attention, to imagine not only what you see in the frame, but to then question what was going on around that frame that you're looking at. What was happening the minute before and what was happening for the 10 minutes afterwards? I I think photojournalism is so important... delivered at one five hundredth of a second at a time.
speaker-1: Well, thank you so much for your time today and for navigating through all of our technical challenges. I really enjoyed talking with you today and and thank you so much for being willing to give me your time.
speaker-0: Thanks for the invite, Christian.
Gretchen Hoak: You've been listening to the Informed Reporting Podcast with me, Dr. Gretchen Hoak. If you liked what you heard today, please like and follow us on Spotify or Apple podcasts and feel free to leave us a positive review. To keep the conversation going and for more information and content between shows, Please follow us on Instagram @ informedreportingpodcast. Our music is Casual Fridays by 1000 Handz, used through a Creative Commons license from Free Music Archive. This podcast is produced independently of my teaching and research roles in the School of Media and Journalism at Kent State University. The information shared here reflects my views and those of my guests and is not reflective of the views or official policies of my institution. If you have any questions or ideas for guests or topics, please email us at informedreportingpodcast@gmail.com. ⁓
