WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Information Matters with AI.
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I'm Jacqueline Stockwell, CEO and founder at Leadership Through Data.
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I'm an international best-selling author for a book called Blooming Good Information Management.
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Now, today I am joined by John Rooley.
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John is the founder of Wolf Not Sheep.
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He's an experienced transformational leader, a change specialist, and someone who has spent years helping organizations navigate uncertainty, disruption, and growth.
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Now, in a world where AI is changing how we work, how we lead, and how we make decisions, I wanted to explore a question that sits behind all technology.
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How do we remain human whilst creating meaningful change?
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So grab your coffee and let's get started.
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So let's talk about um why wolf not sheep as your business name.
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I get asked this a lot.
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So the inspiration, first and foremost, it stems from my childhood.
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So everybody used to go woolly, sheep, haha ba, right?
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But it also comes, I I did some research, like where does woolly come from?
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And woolly is old English for wolf, which is really weird.
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And so I thought, well, wolf not sheep, right?
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So that was that was one of its originals.
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I've always been called a square peg and a round hole, not not quite, and I never quite follow the the way the rest of the herd is going.
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So I thought it was kind of apt.
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So first first round is surname as a play on that.
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But the second one is uh not quite the herd, the normal, and wolf in sheep's clothing, because I have a technical background, and from a sales perspective, that can be really, really dangerous.
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So yeah, lots of different reasons why it's wolf not sheep.
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I love that.
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And when you talk to people about, you know, business days, business concepts and like the meaning behind it.
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I mean, I just thought you liked wolf and sheep, but I love what you say that you don't don't kind of follow follow the traditional trend.
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So let's talk about mindsets.
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When you're trying to drive change into organizations, how does that affect people's mindsets?
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Well, change is hard.
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I mean, the the the most most interesting point of my career has probably been the last seven years where the where the role has always been around developing new ways of working.
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So whether it's a a new software system, new workflows, helping customers design and build those, that part is a real simplest one.
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I I think one of one of the most interesting projects I went through was a transformation of a government service.
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And it's you know, it's a general public population.
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I think nothing helps you understand change management more than dealing with the general public.
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And the the challenge in there was it's not so much about you can't enforce change, for example.
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Like it you've got to bring people along on the journey.
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And so I think the the challenge, the real kind of issue here is how leaders can influence, and I think influence is probably the best word, influence and drive adoption of whatever it is that they are trying to change.
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You can't push that agenda, you can't force that agenda.
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I do a lot of I spend a lot of time in in terms of things like sales consulting and sales, sales leadership, and we talk a lot about the forces of physics in all of this.
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I like to look at things like push and pull in the language.
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And so if from a change perspective you're pushing, you're pushing change on something, the natural reaction when you push something is that thing moves away from you.
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So you don't get that alignment.
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So I always say that like the the question for any leader who's trying to drive change is how do you pull?
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How do you gravitate?
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How do you deliver enough value or enough appetite in whatever they are trying to do to make them want to come to you, to make to make them want to embrace that change?
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And I think that's the question that needs to, before anybody starts to push, push, there you go, starts to push out a change to an organization.
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The question has to become, how do I get people to gravitate?
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You know, what is the hook?
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Why do this?
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Yeah, and I think it's so important that word influence.
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So I talk a lot about um influence with information leaders, a lot of the uh listeners that we're uh talking to now, and it's influencing.
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So and it's how you perceive yourself.
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So it's your personal brand, but it's also how you influence information management by 365 within the business.
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So a lot of people could be loan leaders, so there's a huge amount of influence that they have to deliver onto the business to actually get stuff done, get people listening, get that emotional buy-in.
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And I think influence really is that word, you know, you can be an influencer within your business for information management, for AI, for Microsoft 365.
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Um, and then it's a real key focus right now for us to all focus on our personal branding, which aids that influence within the business.
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Perceptions of what do people think about me?
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You know, what do I think about myself?
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You know, how do I show up?
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How do I present?
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Because if we're all, you know, saying, I don't want this change, I don't want AI, for example, I don't want, you know, this and that, then that's going to be your impact, and you're not gonna be able to get people to influence or buy in for the things that you're describing.
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It's funny, isn't it?
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Uh like lots of people have an aversion to sales folks.
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They do, right?
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Don't like salespeople, but everybody sells.
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And I think this is what a lot of us kind of can forget is that if you're a a leadership position for me, actually, is a ton of internal sales.
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You're selling, you're selling yourself, you're selling your teams, you're selling the company, you're selling whatever direction that you are trying to go and take the company in.
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It's a sales job.
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And there are some there are some inherent skills that has to come with that.
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But yeah, you and and pushing, pushing definitely does not work.
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You push, either people push back or they just move away.
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It's one of the two.
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Yeah, and it's building relationships.
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So I'm key, you know, 60% of our job should be around building relationships with people within the organization with external users.
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And without those relationships, you're not going to get selling information management to the business.
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And that's essentially what we're doing, as you said, we're influencing.
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And it's so interesting because as you probably know, Sal's tip, it takes 12 steps for somebody to go from not knowing you to getting the confidence, getting the trust, getting the buy-in, to then buying a product.
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So that's 12 things you need to do with one person before you start to create.
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And you need to be having those conversations and having that impact and within the business to get that change, to get your business cases going, to get your input, to get things moving, and it is selling.
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And I do agree it's selling, but influencing is the same, um, but it is a is a form of selling.
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So you've spent decades helping organizations transform.
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Why do so many organizations embrace change whilst others resist it at every turn?
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For me, and from the experiences I've had, is it is how it's sold internally.
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That that's the first thing.
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But it's also about what is changing.
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So in in terms of let's let's just say you're you're putting in a new process, or I I've seen so many times and you know, dealing with very good friends of mine who are in the records management or information governance business, right?
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The information governance one is a really, really tough, really tough thing to change because it's like a why bother, right?
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It doesn't affect me on a day-to-day basis.
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The only time usually I see this is when you know people scramble for let's fix the problem when usually there's like a legal problem coming in behind it or an audit compliance one coming behind it.
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So it's usually somebody with a a really large book to get to throw at someone.
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And so that type of change is really hard.
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So where they where I see the ones that are working, what they've actually been able to do is find the benefits change to the people who the change is happening to in order for them to understand it simply, understand it quickly, but also be able to derive really fast benefits out of it.
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So if if whatever you are changing is going to take months and months and months, people don't have that attention span anymore.
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What they want is like instant gratification of whatever they are doing or whatever they are changing has to have something tangible within their personal life, their work life, their whatever life at that moment.
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So from a project perspective, the ones that I see that tend to fail, the payoff is too far down the line.
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I mean, think about it, it's like it it just almost like going to the gym or dieting or doing something like that.
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You know, if your results are going to be six months down the line, like nobody really wants to know.
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But if the results are instant, you know, they're there there's a cube, there's a there's a huge long cube.
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So organizational change is very, very much like that.
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And the ones that do get it right are the ones that figure out those short gap, quick wins, the wow factor.
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So everybody then gravitates to it.
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And they communicate well.
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I think that's the other thing is you have to communicate the wins.
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So again, we go back to that whole sales conversation.
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Once you start to get people onto it and you get the first early adopters, they have to sing from the rafters, they have to advocate it, they have to be your evangelists, they have to be enthusiasts.
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So that that excitement and that that energy starts to permeate out, and it does.
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It becomes really infective.
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Once once you get one or two folks using it and they love it, it it goes.
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Well, we see that we see that all the time.
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Yeah, agreed.
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And obviously that's change management, isn't it?
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Have a vision, get buy-in, think of the quick wins, you know, get everybody embraced in what you're trying to do.
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And I I think there's a big thing in our industry around it's too difficult for us to get information governance, you know, to the business to get them to understand.
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I'm coming at it from a completely different perspective.
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It's around people.
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So you talk about the benefits.
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Me as a person, I go to a senior manager, I go to an end user.
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What's the benefits for me?
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Well, if we do this, you'll find documents say 60% faster on a Monday morning, right?
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So that's the benefit to them.
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You know, in the back end, you're looking at you know how you're gonna do that, but actually it's the benefits to them to get them to buy in.
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Oh, right, well, if I'm gonna find documents quicker on a Monday morning, well, absolutely, how can I help you?
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Yeah.
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You know, that's where the influence, the relationship building, and the change management aspects all come in because you're getting people to buy in to the vision of finding things quicker on a Monday morning.
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It's funny you say that about fighting, but IG for for me, in terms of like working, working on a project to build out a platform to do that level of classification.
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It's not the classification that is the that's the selling point.
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It is exactly that.
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It's about bringing order to chaos where you've got large unstructured data pools, like, how do I find anything in here?
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And if you ask anybody, like the number one bane is I can't find stuff, there's too much stuff.
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And so if you can find it instantly, it's like mind blown.
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Absolutely, I'll connect my stuff and I'll put it there.
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So it's I think one of one of the interesting things as human beings just generally, and I've always always come across this, is that we are inherently lazy.
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We really want to do the least amount of work to get the maximum amount of return out of it, right?
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Which is you know what differentiates us from pretty much every other animal on the planet, right?
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We you know, we want to we want to open something, we make a tool to open that something.
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We don't sit there kind of like you know, twisting it for hours.
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We go and figure out something to go and get it open with.
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And so like if you can tune in to that level of desire from people.
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And I think the other thing is that a lot of organizations where they can they can make a mistake is they believe because their teams, their employees, are employed by the company, they will follow the direction.
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And that's not always the case.
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That they didn't share the same mission as the leadership.
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I was like, well, of course.
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Like nobody ever joins a company to go, yeah, I don't want any money, I just want to join this this particular mission, otherwise they'd be doing it for themselves.
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So it it the motivation of the team that is working with you is is never really the same as as your motivation if you're trying to push something.
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And those sorts of alignments, again, is one of the things I think that causes a lot of things to fail.
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What advice would you give to listeners who know something needs to change but are struggling to get by in?
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I think they've got to step back.
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And if if it's something that they're trying to push right now and it's failing, you've really got to look back and do some soul searching, naval gazing, as I like to think about it.
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So for those folks who aren't using it or aren't adopting it, it's like go at it a different way instead of, you know, why aren't you?
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You know, Jacqueline, why aren't you adopting this?
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To what have I done wrong?
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You know, it's not being, you know, we're not we're not doing this right.
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What am I doing wrong?
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How could I do better in order to make this a little bit more consumable?
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I mean, it it it usually stems from the original outreach or the original kind of like push on things.
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And then if you're going to drive that change again, please, please, please don't call it a relaunch.
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I've heard that so many times, you know, iterate it.
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But again, uh, you know, it's another drive, it's another round of change because it does take time.
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And so go back to it, wrap it up, look internally.
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What have you done wrong?
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All right, what are the steps that you've mismade?
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Second one is kind of like look at ways, what are the benefits?
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I always say that value propositions, which are really, really important in communicating anything, could be broken down into kind of a very, very quick, I have a structure for it.
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So what it does in order to, so that you can, if that makes sense.
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So I need a line, tell me exactly what this thing does so that you can find things faster in order to save a lot of time on a Monday morning.
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And if you can get the value proposition right for the change that you're trying to make, that's really simple.
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And that structure has certainly helped me over the years kind of figure out how to communicate something.
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That makes sense.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, agreed.
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And we talk a lot about a value proposition on our own power accelerator because it's that opening line, it's how you present yourself, how you introduce yourself, and it's also, you know, your value proposition for the thing you you're trying to sell, I say sell, back to the business.
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Well, one of the things that I always find people with resistance to change is to look at your stakeholders and write three columns.
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So list the people that are already on board, list the people that need tweaking, and then list the ones that are really resistant to that change, and then target your energy on those ones.
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Yeah.
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Um so get feedback actually.
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It might not be resistance to change, it might be something that isn't actually anything to do with your product or or the way you've created it, it might be something that happened that day at home that's brought to the difference.
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So, but I do think feedback is a really, really important thing, and to be open and have that growth mindset, so that real reflective, real reflective piece.
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I like the way you look at that because I usually go to the extreme of nothing's working or everything's working.
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You've got that kind of like nice balance in the middle that goes.
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Some like it, some don't.
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But it's it is absolutely true.
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You know, it's not everyone's the same.
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You will have those adopters, and exactly.
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I I think you've you've hit the nail on the head.
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You also need to seek from those.
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This is the piece I missed, seek from those actually why they're adopting it too, versus who's not adopting it.
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I like that.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Because when you look at AR, I'm quite innovative, you're quite innovative, quite forward thinking.
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We'd look at you the positives and the negatives for it, the risks and the costs.
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Whereas some some people might not be adverse to computers, for example.
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So they struggle with certain computers.
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So they're not gonna be in the I'm really excited AI's coming, are they?
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Because obviously it's another piece of technology that they're not very comfortable with.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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And then you then gotta look at all like the technical people that are really excited about AI, the productivity, businesses for a return of investment.
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But then you've got our community that is certainly information management, because if your information management isn't great, garbage in, garbage out, then gospel is carried on um within the business.
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So I think there's those kind of real rationales, but I've definitely found a way of like structuring in three columns and then targeting those people because once you get them on board, you know, the significance that you're just like, yes, I did that, and you know, they'll be your business's biggest advocates going forward.
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So talking about AI, it's transforming every single industry.
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What leadership qualities do you believe will become more important as I AI becomes more and more embedded into our workplaces?
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Skepticism.
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I think skepticism.
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I so I've been working with it for a while, and I there are there are there are times where I love it, I think it's great, and then there are times where I absolutely hate it because it's not great.
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And kind of I I I kind of chuckle and say skepticism.
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And it's not so much the AI, it's just a hype around it.
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That's the problem.
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I've seen so you know, uh, if you see any of my tongue-in-cheek posts on uh social media where I've had a day of you know being sold to AI products and AI this and AI that, and I am just kind of bored of it because I know I use it every day.
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From from a leadership perspective, it's kind of like test, test, test, test, test and double down.
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So skepticism for me is like a big thing.
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Have realistic goals, like understand what it can do.
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:34.960
And for the kind of like the semi-nerdy or non-nerdy kind of like balance of listeners that you you may have, it's real simple to look at it.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.839
AI is nothing else but a really good prediction.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.799
So think about it, it's a big glass ball and it's trying to figure out what its answer is going to be.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:47.200
It's got great context, and don't get me wrong, it's fantastic, but it is making guesses.
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.839
So if you need something that's deterministic, if this, then do this.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:54.480
AI is not actually required.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:55.039
Right?
00:17:55.119 --> 00:18:01.839
You can write that with standard, standard coding tools that have been around for the last, you know, very long time, uh, longer than I have.
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:08.720
So it's like there is a level of realism that has to come into this to realize that you need to pick the right tool for the right job.
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:18.720
Otherwise, you end up with either stuff that doesn't work, stuff that overruns, stuff that costs too much, and it's kind of a real then impact to the business.
00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.880
And I've seen this with a rush to like, oh, we need to AI everything.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:30.079
You know, the the the people that are telling you online that they've built bots for everything and bots do everything for them, and their agents run everything.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:31.440
It's hyperbole.
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:42.400
You know, the the the stuff that we are writing today, for for example, information governance, it's really, really good at trying to determine what a what a thing is.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:43.680
It's very good at that.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:48.559
But after that has decided what that thing is, you want deterministics.
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.680
You want to say, if it is this, these are the steps that you need to take.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.839
If it's this, this is what I want the system to do.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.039
And that's not AI.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.400
That's just that's coding.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:57.279
That's simple stuff.
00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.119
And that's how we've built that platform.
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:04.160
So we use it where it so again, like be real, understand what the problem is.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:09.680
The the problem that you're trying to solve is more important than the technology you solve it at.
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.119
And the j the running joke is kind of like the answer is AI, what's the question?
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:13.440
Right.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:15.599
And I've seen that with so many different things.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:16.720
Yeah, the answer is X.
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:17.680
I'm selling you this.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:19.359
The answer is X, what was your problem?
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:36.480
Like if you can get to the problem first, and then look at the different types of souls that you've got for that problem, and then like go from that rather than look at what the product is and then try and find a lot of a lot of companies right now are they've chosen an AI and now they're looking for a use case, and it needs to be the other way around, right?
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.880
It's like what's the problem I'm trying to solve?
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.119
Will this help that problem or will it make it worse?
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:42.000
Yeah, brilliant.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:49.519
Right, John, before I let you go, something new for Information Matters with AI Podcasts is a rapid fire round.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:54.640
So I'm just gonna say something, you just got to answer the first thing that comes into your mind.
00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:56.720
Okay, are you ready?
00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:57.680
I uh yeah.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:59.759
One word that describes great leadership.
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:00.720
Empathy.
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.440
One skill AI will never replace.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:04.319
Creativity.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:05.440
Wolf or sheep.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:06.559
Wolf, definitely.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.119
What's the biggest mistake leaders make during change?
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.400
Pushing, pushing it.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:11.920
You need to complete the sentence.
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.240
The future belongs to people who dream.
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:14.799
I love it.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.880
Thank you so much, John, for joining me today.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:17.920
It's been absolutely great.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.119
I've thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:44.079
And what really stands out for me is what um whilst AI is transforming the way we work, leadership, change management, fundamentally being human is a key thing that we need to remember that it's not going to replace our jobs because technology can move so fast, but it's about courage, trust, communication, and influencing the business as we go forward.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:45.920
So thank you again for your time.
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:46.960
So grateful.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:53.839
And for everyone who's listening to Information Matters with AI, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your colleagues.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:02.960
Until next time, remember information matters, leadership matters, and in the age of AI, the human element matters even more.
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:04.640
Take care, see you next week.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.680
Be bold, be brave, and be beautiful.
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:07.839
Hello and welcome to Information Matters with AI.
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.679
I'm Jacqueline Stockwell, CEO and founder at Leadership Through Data.
00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:17.280
I'm an international best-selling author for a book called Blooming Good Information Management.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:21.199
Now, today I am joined by John Rooley.
00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:23.920
John is the founder of Wolf Not Sheep.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:34.399
He's an experienced transformational leader, a change specialist, and someone who has spent years helping organizations navigate uncertainty, disruption, and growth.
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:45.280
Now, in a world where AI is changing how we work, how we lead, and how we make decisions, I wanted to explore a question that sits behind all technology.
00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:49.280
How do we remain human whilst creating meaningful change?
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:52.240
So grab your coffee and let's get started.
00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:57.119
So let's talk about um why wolf not sheep as your business name.
00:00:57.359 --> 00:00:58.880
I get asked this a lot.
00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:02.159
So the inspiration, first and foremost, it stems from my childhood.
00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.120
So everybody used to go woolly, sheep, haha ba, right?
00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:08.640
But it also comes, I I did some research, like where does woolly come from?
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:12.480
And woolly is old English for wolf, which is really weird.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.920
And so I thought, well, wolf not sheep, right?
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:18.719
So that was that was one of its originals.
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:26.560
I've always been called a square peg and a round hole, not not quite, and I never quite follow the the way the rest of the herd is going.
00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:28.319
So I thought it was kind of apt.
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.680
So first first round is surname as a play on that.
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:40.560
But the second one is uh not quite the herd, the normal, and wolf in sheep's clothing, because I have a technical background, and from a sales perspective, that can be really, really dangerous.
00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:43.200
So yeah, lots of different reasons why it's wolf not sheep.
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:43.760
I love that.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:48.879
And when you talk to people about, you know, business days, business concepts and like the meaning behind it.
00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:57.040
I mean, I just thought you liked wolf and sheep, but I love what you say that you don't don't kind of follow follow the traditional trend.
00:01:57.359 --> 00:01:58.719
So let's talk about mindsets.
00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:06.079
When you're trying to drive change into organizations, how does that affect people's mindsets?
00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:07.760
Well, change is hard.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:18.639
I mean, the the the most most interesting point of my career has probably been the last seven years where the where the role has always been around developing new ways of working.
00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:26.159
So whether it's a a new software system, new workflows, helping customers design and build those, that part is a real simplest one.
00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:31.919
I I think one of one of the most interesting projects I went through was a transformation of a government service.
00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.479
And it's you know, it's a general public population.
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.400
I think nothing helps you understand change management more than dealing with the general public.
00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:44.960
And the the challenge in there was it's not so much about you can't enforce change, for example.
00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:47.759
Like it you've got to bring people along on the journey.
00:02:47.919 --> 00:03:03.199
And so I think the the challenge, the real kind of issue here is how leaders can influence, and I think influence is probably the best word, influence and drive adoption of whatever it is that they are trying to change.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.080
You can't push that agenda, you can't force that agenda.
00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:16.719
I do a lot of I spend a lot of time in in terms of things like sales consulting and sales, sales leadership, and we talk a lot about the forces of physics in all of this.
00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.400
I like to look at things like push and pull in the language.
00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:29.439
And so if from a change perspective you're pushing, you're pushing change on something, the natural reaction when you push something is that thing moves away from you.
00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.039
So you don't get that alignment.
00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:37.680
So I always say that like the the question for any leader who's trying to drive change is how do you pull?
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:38.639
How do you gravitate?
00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:49.360
How do you deliver enough value or enough appetite in whatever they are trying to do to make them want to come to you, to make to make them want to embrace that change?
00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:57.680
And I think that's the question that needs to, before anybody starts to push, push, there you go, starts to push out a change to an organization.
00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.639
The question has to become, how do I get people to gravitate?
00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:02.000
You know, what is the hook?
00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:02.800
Why do this?
00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:05.599
Yeah, and I think it's so important that word influence.
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:14.560
So I talk a lot about um influence with information leaders, a lot of the uh listeners that we're uh talking to now, and it's influencing.
00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:16.560
So and it's how you perceive yourself.
00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:24.079
So it's your personal brand, but it's also how you influence information management by 365 within the business.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:37.600
So a lot of people could be loan leaders, so there's a huge amount of influence that they have to deliver onto the business to actually get stuff done, get people listening, get that emotional buy-in.
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:46.560
And I think influence really is that word, you know, you can be an influencer within your business for information management, for AI, for Microsoft 365.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:53.759
Um, and then it's a real key focus right now for us to all focus on our personal branding, which aids that influence within the business.
00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.199
Perceptions of what do people think about me?
00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:59.040
You know, what do I think about myself?
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You know, how do I show up?
00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:01.680
How do I present?
00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:16.399
Because if we're all, you know, saying, I don't want this change, I don't want AI, for example, I don't want, you know, this and that, then that's going to be your impact, and you're not gonna be able to get people to influence or buy in for the things that you're describing.
00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:17.600
It's funny, isn't it?
00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:21.519
Uh like lots of people have an aversion to sales folks.
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:22.560
They do, right?
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:25.199
Don't like salespeople, but everybody sells.
00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:33.839
And I think this is what a lot of us kind of can forget is that if you're a a leadership position for me, actually, is a ton of internal sales.
00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:42.399
You're selling, you're selling yourself, you're selling your teams, you're selling the company, you're selling whatever direction that you are trying to go and take the company in.
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:43.439
It's a sales job.
00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.199
And there are some there are some inherent skills that has to come with that.
00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.160
But yeah, you and and pushing, pushing definitely does not work.
00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:52.959
You push, either people push back or they just move away.
00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:53.680
It's one of the two.
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:55.839
Yeah, and it's building relationships.
00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:04.160
So I'm key, you know, 60% of our job should be around building relationships with people within the organization with external users.
00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:08.720
And without those relationships, you're not going to get selling information management to the business.
00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.079
And that's essentially what we're doing, as you said, we're influencing.
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:26.639
And it's so interesting because as you probably know, Sal's tip, it takes 12 steps for somebody to go from not knowing you to getting the confidence, getting the trust, getting the buy-in, to then buying a product.
00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:31.839
So that's 12 things you need to do with one person before you start to create.
00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:45.839
And you need to be having those conversations and having that impact and within the business to get that change, to get your business cases going, to get your input, to get things moving, and it is selling.
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:52.879
And I do agree it's selling, but influencing is the same, um, but it is a is a form of selling.
00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.959
So you've spent decades helping organizations transform.
00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:02.560
Why do so many organizations embrace change whilst others resist it at every turn?
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:08.160
For me, and from the experiences I've had, is it is how it's sold internally.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:09.360
That that's the first thing.
00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.759
But it's also about what is changing.
00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:25.439
So in in terms of let's let's just say you're you're putting in a new process, or I I've seen so many times and you know, dealing with very good friends of mine who are in the records management or information governance business, right?
00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:31.920
The information governance one is a really, really tough, really tough thing to change because it's like a why bother, right?
00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:33.839
It doesn't affect me on a day-to-day basis.
00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:43.519
The only time usually I see this is when you know people scramble for let's fix the problem when usually there's like a legal problem coming in behind it or an audit compliance one coming behind it.
00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:48.319
So it's usually somebody with a a really large book to get to throw at someone.
00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:50.879
And so that type of change is really hard.
00:07:51.040 --> 00:08:09.519
So where they where I see the ones that are working, what they've actually been able to do is find the benefits change to the people who the change is happening to in order for them to understand it simply, understand it quickly, but also be able to derive really fast benefits out of it.
00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:15.759
So if if whatever you are changing is going to take months and months and months, people don't have that attention span anymore.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:28.000
What they want is like instant gratification of whatever they are doing or whatever they are changing has to have something tangible within their personal life, their work life, their whatever life at that moment.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:33.919
So from a project perspective, the ones that I see that tend to fail, the payoff is too far down the line.
00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:39.200
I mean, think about it, it's like it it just almost like going to the gym or dieting or doing something like that.
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.360
You know, if your results are going to be six months down the line, like nobody really wants to know.
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:48.080
But if the results are instant, you know, they're there there's a cube, there's a there's a huge long cube.
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.639
So organizational change is very, very much like that.
00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.240
And the ones that do get it right are the ones that figure out those short gap, quick wins, the wow factor.
00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:58.159
So everybody then gravitates to it.
00:08:58.320 --> 00:08:59.360
And they communicate well.
00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:02.159
I think that's the other thing is you have to communicate the wins.
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:04.639
So again, we go back to that whole sales conversation.
00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:14.799
Once you start to get people onto it and you get the first early adopters, they have to sing from the rafters, they have to advocate it, they have to be your evangelists, they have to be enthusiasts.
00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:20.480
So that that excitement and that that energy starts to permeate out, and it does.
00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:22.000
It becomes really infective.
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:26.240
Once once you get one or two folks using it and they love it, it it goes.
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.080
Well, we see that we see that all the time.
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:29.120
Yeah, agreed.
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:30.879
And obviously that's change management, isn't it?
00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:37.759
Have a vision, get buy-in, think of the quick wins, you know, get everybody embraced in what you're trying to do.
00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:45.600
And I I think there's a big thing in our industry around it's too difficult for us to get information governance, you know, to the business to get them to understand.
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:48.799
I'm coming at it from a completely different perspective.
00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:49.919
It's around people.
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:51.759
So you talk about the benefits.
00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:55.759
Me as a person, I go to a senior manager, I go to an end user.
00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:57.200
What's the benefits for me?
00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:03.519
Well, if we do this, you'll find documents say 60% faster on a Monday morning, right?
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:04.879
So that's the benefit to them.
00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:10.720
You know, in the back end, you're looking at you know how you're gonna do that, but actually it's the benefits to them to get them to buy in.
00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:16.559
Oh, right, well, if I'm gonna find documents quicker on a Monday morning, well, absolutely, how can I help you?
00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:16.799
Yeah.
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:28.960
You know, that's where the influence, the relationship building, and the change management aspects all come in because you're getting people to buy in to the vision of finding things quicker on a Monday morning.
00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:39.200
It's funny you say that about fighting, but IG for for me, in terms of like working, working on a project to build out a platform to do that level of classification.
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:42.960
It's not the classification that is the that's the selling point.
00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:44.080
It is exactly that.
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:50.080
It's about bringing order to chaos where you've got large unstructured data pools, like, how do I find anything in here?
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.879
And if you ask anybody, like the number one bane is I can't find stuff, there's too much stuff.
00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.159
And so if you can find it instantly, it's like mind blown.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.639
Absolutely, I'll connect my stuff and I'll put it there.
00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:09.120
So it's I think one of one of the interesting things as human beings just generally, and I've always always come across this, is that we are inherently lazy.
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:14.879
We really want to do the least amount of work to get the maximum amount of return out of it, right?
00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:19.600
Which is you know what differentiates us from pretty much every other animal on the planet, right?
00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:24.000
We you know, we want to we want to open something, we make a tool to open that something.
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:26.720
We don't sit there kind of like you know, twisting it for hours.
00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:29.600
We go and figure out something to go and get it open with.
00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:34.159
And so like if you can tune in to that level of desire from people.
00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:45.919
And I think the other thing is that a lot of organizations where they can they can make a mistake is they believe because their teams, their employees, are employed by the company, they will follow the direction.
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.000
And that's not always the case.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.440
That they didn't share the same mission as the leadership.
00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:00.720
I was like, well, of course.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:08.240
Like nobody ever joins a company to go, yeah, I don't want any money, I just want to join this this particular mission, otherwise they'd be doing it for themselves.
00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:16.000
So it it the motivation of the team that is working with you is is never really the same as as your motivation if you're trying to push something.
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.399
And those sorts of alignments, again, is one of the things I think that causes a lot of things to fail.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:26.480
What advice would you give to listeners who know something needs to change but are struggling to get by in?
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:28.159
I think they've got to step back.
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:38.000
And if if it's something that they're trying to push right now and it's failing, you've really got to look back and do some soul searching, naval gazing, as I like to think about it.
00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:44.480
So for those folks who aren't using it or aren't adopting it, it's like go at it a different way instead of, you know, why aren't you?
00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:47.200
You know, Jacqueline, why aren't you adopting this?
00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.799
To what have I done wrong?
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:52.000
You know, it's not being, you know, we're not we're not doing this right.
00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:53.440
What am I doing wrong?
00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:58.960
How could I do better in order to make this a little bit more consumable?
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:04.639
I mean, it it it usually stems from the original outreach or the original kind of like push on things.
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:10.000
And then if you're going to drive that change again, please, please, please don't call it a relaunch.
00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.039
I've heard that so many times, you know, iterate it.
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.080
But again, uh, you know, it's another drive, it's another round of change because it does take time.
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.879
And so go back to it, wrap it up, look internally.
00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:21.840
What have you done wrong?
00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:23.519
All right, what are the steps that you've mismade?
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.200
Second one is kind of like look at ways, what are the benefits?
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:37.759
I always say that value propositions, which are really, really important in communicating anything, could be broken down into kind of a very, very quick, I have a structure for it.
00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.679
So what it does in order to, so that you can, if that makes sense.
00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:51.279
So I need a line, tell me exactly what this thing does so that you can find things faster in order to save a lot of time on a Monday morning.
00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:56.320
And if you can get the value proposition right for the change that you're trying to make, that's really simple.
00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:03.039
And that structure has certainly helped me over the years kind of figure out how to communicate something.
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:04.000
That makes sense.
00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:04.399
Yeah.
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:05.440
Yeah, agreed.
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:19.759
And we talk a lot about a value proposition on our own power accelerator because it's that opening line, it's how you present yourself, how you introduce yourself, and it's also, you know, your value proposition for the thing you you're trying to sell, I say sell, back to the business.
00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:25.919
Well, one of the things that I always find people with resistance to change is to look at your stakeholders and write three columns.
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:37.440
So list the people that are already on board, list the people that need tweaking, and then list the ones that are really resistant to that change, and then target your energy on those ones.
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:37.840
Yeah.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.679
Um so get feedback actually.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:51.360
It might not be resistance to change, it might be something that isn't actually anything to do with your product or or the way you've created it, it might be something that happened that day at home that's brought to the difference.
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:59.679
So, but I do think feedback is a really, really important thing, and to be open and have that growth mindset, so that real reflective, real reflective piece.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.559
I like the way you look at that because I usually go to the extreme of nothing's working or everything's working.
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.120
You've got that kind of like nice balance in the middle that goes.
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:08.320
Some like it, some don't.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.000
But it's it is absolutely true.
00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:11.840
You know, it's not everyone's the same.
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.320
You will have those adopters, and exactly.
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:16.080
I I think you've you've hit the nail on the head.
00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:17.360
You also need to seek from those.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:23.519
This is the piece I missed, seek from those actually why they're adopting it too, versus who's not adopting it.
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:23.919
I like that.
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:24.799
Yeah, 100%.
00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:29.679
Because when you look at AR, I'm quite innovative, you're quite innovative, quite forward thinking.
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.000
We'd look at you the positives and the negatives for it, the risks and the costs.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.759
Whereas some some people might not be adverse to computers, for example.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:39.759
So they struggle with certain computers.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.080
So they're not gonna be in the I'm really excited AI's coming, are they?
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:49.039
Because obviously it's another piece of technology that they're not very comfortable with.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.159
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:58.080
And then you then gotta look at all like the technical people that are really excited about AI, the productivity, businesses for a return of investment.
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:09.039
But then you've got our community that is certainly information management, because if your information management isn't great, garbage in, garbage out, then gospel is carried on um within the business.
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:27.279
So I think there's those kind of real rationales, but I've definitely found a way of like structuring in three columns and then targeting those people because once you get them on board, you know, the significance that you're just like, yes, I did that, and you know, they'll be your business's biggest advocates going forward.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.320
So talking about AI, it's transforming every single industry.
00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:40.240
What leadership qualities do you believe will become more important as I AI becomes more and more embedded into our workplaces?
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:41.360
Skepticism.
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:42.799
I think skepticism.
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:54.320
I so I've been working with it for a while, and I there are there are there are times where I love it, I think it's great, and then there are times where I absolutely hate it because it's not great.
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.600
And kind of I I I kind of chuckle and say skepticism.
00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.080
And it's not so much the AI, it's just a hype around it.
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:00.799
That's the problem.
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:16.240
I've seen so you know, uh, if you see any of my tongue-in-cheek posts on uh social media where I've had a day of you know being sold to AI products and AI this and AI that, and I am just kind of bored of it because I know I use it every day.
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:21.599
From from a leadership perspective, it's kind of like test, test, test, test, test and double down.
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:23.680
So skepticism for me is like a big thing.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.480
Have realistic goals, like understand what it can do.
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:34.960
And for the kind of like the semi-nerdy or non-nerdy kind of like balance of listeners that you you may have, it's real simple to look at it.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.839
AI is nothing else but a really good prediction.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.799
So think about it, it's a big glass ball and it's trying to figure out what its answer is going to be.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:47.200
It's got great context, and don't get me wrong, it's fantastic, but it is making guesses.
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.839
So if you need something that's deterministic, if this, then do this.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:54.480
AI is not actually required.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:55.039
Right?
00:17:55.119 --> 00:18:01.839
You can write that with standard, standard coding tools that have been around for the last, you know, very long time, uh, longer than I have.
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:08.720
So it's like there is a level of realism that has to come into this to realize that you need to pick the right tool for the right job.
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:18.720
Otherwise, you end up with either stuff that doesn't work, stuff that overruns, stuff that costs too much, and it's kind of a real then impact to the business.
00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.880
And I've seen this with a rush to like, oh, we need to AI everything.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:30.079
You know, the the the people that are telling you online that they've built bots for everything and bots do everything for them, and their agents run everything.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:31.440
It's hyperbole.
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:42.400
You know, the the the stuff that we are writing today, for for example, information governance, it's really, really good at trying to determine what a what a thing is.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:43.680
It's very good at that.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:48.559
But after that has decided what that thing is, you want deterministics.
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.680
You want to say, if it is this, these are the steps that you need to take.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.839
If it's this, this is what I want the system to do.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.039
And that's not AI.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.400
That's just that's coding.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:57.279
That's simple stuff.
00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.119
And that's how we've built that platform.
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:04.160
So we use it where it so again, like be real, understand what the problem is.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:09.680
The the problem that you're trying to solve is more important than the technology you solve it at.
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.119
And the j the running joke is kind of like the answer is AI, what's the question?
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:13.440
Right.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:15.599
And I've seen that with so many different things.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:16.720
Yeah, the answer is X.
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:17.680
I'm selling you this.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:19.359
The answer is X, what was your problem?
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:36.480
Like if you can get to the problem first, and then look at the different types of souls that you've got for that problem, and then like go from that rather than look at what the product is and then try and find a lot of a lot of companies right now are they've chosen an AI and now they're looking for a use case, and it needs to be the other way around, right?
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.880
It's like what's the problem I'm trying to solve?
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.119
Will this help that problem or will it make it worse?
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:42.000
Yeah, brilliant.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:49.519
Right, John, before I let you go, something new for Information Matters with AI Podcasts is a rapid fire round.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:54.640
So I'm just gonna say something, you just got to answer the first thing that comes into your mind.
00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:56.720
Okay, are you ready?
00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:57.680
I uh yeah.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:59.759
One word that describes great leadership.
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:00.720
Empathy.
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.440
One skill AI will never replace.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:04.319
Creativity.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:05.440
Wolf or sheep.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:06.559
Wolf, definitely.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.119
What's the biggest mistake leaders make during change?
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.400
Pushing, pushing it.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:11.920
You need to complete the sentence.
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.240
The future belongs to people who dream.
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:14.799
I love it.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.880
Thank you so much, John, for joining me today.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:17.920
It's been absolutely great.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.119
I've thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:44.079
And what really stands out for me is what um whilst AI is transforming the way we work, leadership, change management, fundamentally being human is a key thing that we need to remember that it's not going to replace our jobs because technology can move so fast, but it's about courage, trust, communication, and influencing the business as we go forward.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:45.920
So thank you again for your time.
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:46.960
So grateful.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:53.839
And for everyone who's listening to Information Matters with AI, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your colleagues.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:02.960
Until next time, remember information matters, leadership matters, and in the age of AI, the human element matters even more.
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:04.640
Take care, see you next week.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.680
Be bold, be brave, and be beautiful.
