Former Chicago Prosecutor Exposes Corruption, Gang Hits & the Justice System & Shares True Crime Stories

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I did have somebody put a legitimate hit on me.
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They stole the service there missile out of an Army Reserve base thing, and they're going to blow up my house and kill my wife at the time and baby.
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Yeah, but the contract was if you don't kill him, kill his wife and baby.
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That way I had three legitimate contracts put on me.
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I didn't think you'd kill a prosecutor.
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I guess they tried.
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People that pay taxes, get up, go to work, try to take care of their kids, they need somebody to protect them from motherfuckers like me.
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If you ever fucking come near me in the rest of my life, we're gonna have a big problem.
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On Christmas Day, I might add.
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And my father immediately went into the uh Air Force in the Korean War, and we moved way up north, 30 miles south of Canada.
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Uh my children always say when I tell these stories, we would think it was Abraham Lincoln or something, because we had no indoor plumbing.
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So no indoor plumbing until I was about five and a half years old.
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So, and we're this from three months old.
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I lived, we lived just south of Canada, real close on the border.
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And so um it was a very um loving uh growing up, but I grew up in a tavern.
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My grandparents owned a tavern up in Margie, Minnesota, and my mother and I stayed in the back of the tavern where they had some quarters.
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So my uh childhood was also another interesting point.
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We lived about three miles from a large Native American called Chipua Indian Reservation.
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2,000, I think, were there.
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So most of the patrons at this bar that my grandparents owned were Chipua.
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So my friends as a child, there were no other white kids.
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I grew up with Native American children or my friends.
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I learned to speak some Chippa, believe it or not.
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I spoke it pretty well.
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It's pretty easy to pick up a language when you're young, but there's only two words I remember.
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What's that?
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Now remember, I grew up at a bar.
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Shika babu and nini mouche.
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Shikababu, for any Chippas out there, you know what that means.
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That means I'm drunk.
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Uh-huh.
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Nini Mouche means I love you.
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Only thing I remember, when I spoke it just like English, and uh all my friends.
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So, so I guess in a way, it sort of tells a story about my future.
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I grew up with people of color.
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I mean, I didn't know about some other way to be.
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And so I know, I know as I grew older, it affected me in a positive way because I never considered that, you know, for being a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white boy from northern Minnesota.
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But those Chippewa, Native American.
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And then uh when I was young, my my father, my family decided, let's move where it's a little warmer.
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So we moved about 300 miles south, just outside of the mini up of St.
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Paul.
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And I went to a very unusual school.
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At that time, the uh governor of Minnesota was a guy named Hubert Humphrey, who eventually became the vice president.
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We had this idea that uh he was going to debunk the idea that black people are mentally not as intelligent as white people.
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This is a true story.
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So they started a school called the Johnsville School, 24 students in each grade.
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There were four black students, two Native American students, and the rest were white.
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Okay, so I'm second, third grade.
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So of course, they did just well as we did.
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I mean, the grades were all the same.
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Everybody, except I'll say this much, they could outrun us any day of the week.
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They were more daring than we were.
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I would play marbles, I'll remember it.
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I mean, I thought I was good, man.
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And they, I mean, there was something athletic about it is, and these two Beck kids were my really close friends, and they'd whip my butt in this to our marbles, and they used to just I'd practice and they'd still beat me.
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They'd beat me for my big puries and all that.
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So, and uh so I had a you know, I had a perception that wasn't a perception, I had no perception, they're just us, right?
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And so sometime later, four or five later, my parents decided to move further south where they thought it might be more, moved to Chicago, which is not warmer.
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And that's the first time I got a taste of, I guess you we didn't call it that.
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In those days we call it prejudice, now it's called racism.
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Yeah, that's the first time I ever was aware of that concept, you know.
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And it was shocking to me, like, you know, really?
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What's that mean?
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I heard words I hadn't heard before of northern Minnesota.
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My grandma would wash her mouth out with soap if you haven't said anything close to anything bad.
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So I was pretty Christian, going to Christian schools.
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And um it wasn't in my mother made me take piano lessons once we moved down there, you know, so I didn't want to.
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But then three years later, uh I would see Stevie Wonder.
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I went to a movie and saw Stevie Wonder.
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I think I was 14 or 15 playing with the on the Beach Boy movie.
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He was playing piano and singing and stuff, and I got an urge to want to play again, and I got enough money together and I bought a little organ.
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It cost me$340.
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And I called my friend and I said, Hey man, you play guitar.
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See the Beatles and all this stuff.
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Why don't we put a band together?
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That's how it started.
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It was just that simplistic.
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Like, I love music, I love playing, and I always catered my or directed my style more to RB style.
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Yeah, I like that.
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Well, I mean, the songs we learned were, for example, Kansas City, Kansas City, Hiracko, Muddy Waters, they all did that.
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Everybody covered that too.
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Johnny Be Good, you know, Roll Over Beethoven, uh, Walkin' the Dog.
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That's the songs I learned as a 15-year-old.
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So that feeling stuck with me.
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You know, I never changed that.
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And shortly thereafter, I started playing in blends that were blended.
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I don't know what you can say anymore.
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I'm so afraid to say words.
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But, you know, there were artists of different nationality or ethnic groups.
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Primarily, I mean, like from my perspective, if I can say this, I think drummers and bass players are black musicians are the best drummers and the best bass players, without question.
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I mean, I've learned that, and I don't know many people that argue that point because there's a certain feel, there's a certain rhythm, there's a certain laid-backness about the way, you know, it's not a rush.
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Rock musicians tend to rush, they they're always on top of the beat.
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I always like being in the pocket, you know, laying back and drummer, and the people ought to lay back.
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I mean, they and so I I always gravitated toward that style of music, and that's pretty much what I did.
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I spent some years in a straight rock and roll band, but even then those guys were in the RB.
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I mean, we always were, you know.
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And then eventually I uh the last music musical in Devon I did was a band called Show Factor on Warner Brothers, and it was primarily a black group and me.
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You know, I used to be, I used to be uh, what's the word?
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I used to be so proud that they'd say that's our blue-eyed soul brother, you know.
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Because that's a compliment, you know.
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I mean, I to play with some of these people coming from where I came from, that to me, I I was impressed that they let me play with.
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I mean, I held my own, don't get me wrong.
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But it was something I was always fond of, much.
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And so, and that affected my life as I went on because when I was in high school, I my um parents were gonna let me quit, but I played all the time, and then I got ready to go to college, and there was a war called Vietnam.
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And if he didn't go to school, he got drafted.
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Yeah.
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So I stayed in school, but I never stopped playing.
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I mean, I toured the whole bit, and then by the time college was over, um, I was gonna get drafted.
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And then I got lucky because there was a uh Selective Service had a drawing.
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They pick your name or number out of a thing.
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And depending on which they pulled out, they'd all every birthday was in this big hopper, and they'd pull them out one at a time and they put them on a board.
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So they'd say one, two, three, and that might be April 1st.
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Two might be March 27th.
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So if they said before, he said the first 180 numbers we dates we pull out, they're gonna get drafted.
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So people are like, You talk about sweating.
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Yeah, you're sitting watching this on TV, and the guy's shit it's like a lot, it's called the lottery.
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Yeah.
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And and uh I was 286.
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So they said we're only going to 180, so I'm out, I don't have to worry about it now.
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And my friend in the band said to me, you know, Greg, we've been screwed so many times by our managers who have lawyers.
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You went to college, why don't you take some law classes?
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I go, what are you crazy?
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Law, what's that mean, law classes?
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And then he asked me again, and then I said, Well, I'll look into it.
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So I did.
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And I took some tests, still in the band, and got accepted and went to law school.
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And when I started my first day, hair on my shoulders, braids in my hair, bell bottoms, platform.
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I mean, I was and these guys in the law school had odd suits and ties on, you know, but here's me, you know, totally unique.
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I didn't care.
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I said to the dean, you know what, Dean, I have a question.
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Yes, uh, Mr.
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Owen.
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As he says to me, I say to him, I'm gonna ban you.
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It was pretty obvious.
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Oh, okay.
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I said, but we tour mainly from June till January.
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We don't tour as much in the winter because we're here, you know, but we still play.
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I said, I want to go to school only every other semester, and then I'll, when I'm in school, I'll just play around the area, you know.
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And he said, Okay.
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So it took me five years to go through law school, but I never stopped playing.
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I toured all over the country.
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And when I got done the last semester, you know, we heard so much story about stories about people having visions and housing, you know, something comes to them out of nowhere.
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Well, how many examples?
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I'm walking down the stairway, hair on my shoulders.
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I just had a breakup with a young woman that I was really fond of, and it really messed me up a little bit.
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Plus, I was questioning my ability.
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You know, I couldn't sing.
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And when you're a keyboard player and you can't sing, you're sort of dependent on other people.
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I mean, so what do you do then?
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Yeah.
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We had gone to a piano bar with the band one night after a gig, and uh one of the guys at the band said, see, that'll be you in a few years.
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And I go, No, no, no, no, no.
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Some old guy in all old playing piano.
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I said, No, no, no, I don't want to do that.
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And I didn't sing.
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So I was walking, it was a school, walking down the stairs, saw a bulletin board, which was all the time, was just full of opportunities.
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But I looked up at the far right-hand corner and there was a little note that said, Cook County State's Attorney's Office will be in room 204.
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It would have been like the next day, Thursday, seeking candidates for intern or assistant states attorney.
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I had never looked at that board in five years.
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Never, I had no intention of being a lawyer.
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And I look, I looked at the board, and something inside me very clearly said, you better do that.
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I'm like, What was that?
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I looked again.
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It got louder.
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And I wasn't, I'd never done acid, I wasn't hallucinating.
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I took a deep breath, and then I did one more time, I just looked side to side, and then it said it again, and it said, if you don't, you're gonna kill yourself.
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Now you think about this.
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I've been in a band my whole life almost.
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I went immediately to a payphone, called my mother and said, Mom, it's like three in the afternoon, you know the guy that cuts your hair, Dino, would you ask him if he could cut my hair tonight?
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My mother's like, What's wrong with you?
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What do you mean?
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Because she couldn't, you know, what are you all of a sudden?
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I said, No, I just gotta do it.
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I got home, got my hair cut, she took me to the mall and got me a suit.
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I don't know if she thought I was all there or not, but I knew I was, I was fine.
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And uh I went to this interview the next day, and the man said to me, What's your lucky day, Greg?
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I'm like, My lucky day, I don't even know what I'm doing here.
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You know, I'm just following something.
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And uh he said, There's a new Supreme Court rule that said if you're a senior law student last semester and you have good grades, you can go into a courtroom if you're supervised by a governmental agency and try cases like a real lawyer.
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I had never even been in a courtroom, okay, ever.
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My whole life.
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And this it it I believe it was a lawyer.
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Okay, I'm just gonna be like, I don't care what anybody thinks about it, because it was too powerful and it was too dramatic.
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You know, they say about changing overnight, that saying, okay, it was Wednesday, late afternoon.
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The next day, I'm in front of this guy with shorter hair, and he tells me it's your lucky day.
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And I didn't know what that meant.
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So he said, Can you start Monday afternoon?
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And I did, okay.
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So I show up at this court facility, which uh it was so crowded.
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I mean, the building was just jammed with people.
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You could smell hot dogs, everybody was smoking, yelling, swearing, you name it.
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I walk into this courtroom, I could hardly get in, it was so crowded.
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I go to the front, there's a young real prosecutor who says, Here, are you the are you the law student?
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I go, I guess, yeah.
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He goes, Start calling all these names.
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Now there's a judge sitting right there on the bench doing a trial.
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I said, What do you mean?
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He starts yelling.
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The judge doesn't even flinch.
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I mean, it was so crowded, they had to keep going and they couldn't find people.
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So I started yelling names, and two weeks later I quit the band and I started there.
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Uh I went there every day for six months and loved every minute of it.
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I felt like I was doing something positive.
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Now, remember this.
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I played in bands often with musicians of all different colors.
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So I walked in this job without without any preconceived prejudice, nothing.
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It's just that's just what I do, right?
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And come to find that that courtroom I was working in at that time as a student would be considered the most corrupt courtroom in Chicago ever.
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And I was naive.
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But there were payoffs going on.
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Eventually, you could see it, you know.
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Same lawyers who win in every case, and they were terrible lawyers.
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And so I took the bar exam, and the day I finished, the second day, I went for lunch, and it was downtown Chicago, and I heard sirens, a lot of sirens.
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I mean, more than usual, even for Chicago, coming from every direction.
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I didn't think much of it.
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I go back there and finish the bar exam, and and uh I go home and I see a newspaper article that says, contractor actors found slain in the paper box.
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I had no change, so I didn't take one.
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Pretty amazed.
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I didn't know what it was about.
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I went in the house and uh my brother called me about half an hour later, and he goes, Greg, I said, What's up, Jay?
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He goes, Man, I'm so bummed out.
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I go, why?
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My friend and his girlfriend got murdered.
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I go, where?
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He goes, I lived in the city, not too far from where you live.
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I go, You're kidding.
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Tell me about it.
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And he started telling me, I go, wait a second.
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Was your friend like a contractor?
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Well, his father was.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.000
How about the girlfriend?
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:03.759
Yeah, she just finished acting school.
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:05.279
I said, I just saw the headline.
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:06.080
That was your friend.
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:07.200
I didn't know this guy.
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.559
He says, Yeah, yeah.
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.240
I went out with his sister.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:11.360
I didn't know that.
00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:12.799
I was on tour, I never knew.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.639
My brother's four years younger.
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:23.039
So I left the next day to go to LA to hang out for two months with my band that I used to be in that was doing an album for Mercury Records.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:23.360
Okay.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:24.000
Uh-huh.
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:29.600
Well, long story short, four years later, I prosecute that double murder case.
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:43.759
Uh the case involved uh a 24-year-old at the time, rich, ultra-rich, real rich kid, prominent family, who butchered two of his friends, stabbed them to death, and left them for dead in their part her apartment.
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.399
The rich kid is the one who was the bad guy.
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:47.600
He's the killer.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.960
Everybody, though, was not nobody was poor in this case.
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.000
They lived in a nice area in Chicago, right off the lake.
00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:55.679
Their girlfriend did.
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:07.279
And um and and so the case itself had a lot of super strange things occur that I had never heard of.
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.400
Now I'm now working at 26 in California, which is the criminal court building of Chicago.
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.200
I get a call in late November of 79.
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:17.359
I've been there about three and a half, four years.
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.680
And the call is from my brother.
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:21.920
And he goes, Greg, would you do me a favor?
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.359
He said, you know my friend's murder case?
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.720
I go, Yeah, I don't remember that.
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:27.440
So what happened?
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:28.079
He goes, Oh.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.559
This is before you tried this is before you dealt with it.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:33.039
Yes.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:33.920
So we go, okay.
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.680
I I didn't even know whatever happened to us.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.960
You know, I I had already tried 41 murder jury trials by in within three and a half years.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.839
I mean, I was on by then.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:44.480
By then.
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:44.960
Okay.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:46.559
We were on trial every single month.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.079
I mean, there was no Okay.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.359
I mean, if you took a vacation, people looked at you like, what are you nuts?
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.880
We can't take vacations.
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:54.240
It was too that's how much crime.
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:59.599
We had the highest crime rate in Chicago murder rate, 891 that went in 1980.
00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:05.599
And so it was so bad, and there was only 36 of us doing out of 800 doing murder cases.
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.799
So I had extensive experience at a very young age, very, very young age.
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:18.400
So um, what happened was he said to me, would you just look into it and see what happened?
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:19.279
I said, sure.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.400
So I made some calls, and it wasn't assigned to where I was, and that's where all the murder cases were.
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:30.880
I find out it's assigned to a court building that never to this day ever had a murder case.
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:35.599
I also find out that this guy that killed two people was out on bond.
00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:37.839
Who gets a bond on a double murder?
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:41.119
I don't care what it is, and it was a low bond.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:42.400
How do you do that?
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.839
How did he get a low bond on a double murder?
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.440
Yes.
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:57.920
And not only that, how did he get the case assigned to a court facility that never had murder cases in front of a judge who was close friends with his lawyer?
00:18:58.160 --> 00:18:59.680
How do you work that out?
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.519
Now, these are the things I'm finding out after the fact.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:12.319
So I go downtown, I find the prosecutor that works in this one courtroom, I go, hey Sandy, I'm looking for a file.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:13.839
He goes, What is it?
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.519
I tell him, he goes, Greg, do yourself a big favor.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:19.200
Because I'm gonna tell you me, he said.
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.440
I wouldn't touch that case with a 10-foot pole.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.039
What's the problem?
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:24.960
He goes, It's poison.
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.440
Yeah, it is so corrupt.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.720
He says, the eyewitness is now taking the fifth.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:32.000
He won't even testify.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.519
We got a letter from his lawyer.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.880
The evidence, there was some evidence seized at the defendant's house after the murders.
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.240
And guess what?
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:42.559
The judge said we couldn't use it.
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:50.319
And then when we appealed, the judge and the appellate court said we could, between then and now, the evidence disappeared out of the evidence locker.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:51.200
It's all gone.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.039
I'm like, what?
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:55.839
He goes, Yeah, that's right.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.640
He said, So there's no case.
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.920
So I said, Well, let me just look at it, you know, just for the sake of my brother.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.319
So he starts looking for it in the file cameras, he can't find it.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:14.240
He goes on his hands and knees like this, and he's looking under a desk and he pulls his folder out of the desk.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:15.839
It's a mess.
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:17.759
I said, Well, let me look at it.
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:18.880
He goes, Good luck.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:19.519
Good luck.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.000
Remember, I told you, I said, fine, Sandy.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.680
So I open, I'd see this picture of this kid, 24 years old, and I see where he lives.
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.839
Now understand that I we were dealing with so much corruption on a daily basis.
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.640
We would have to plan trials based on corruption.
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.279
Okay, how can we get around this if they bribe this person?
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:38.319
What do we do with this person?
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:38.720
Yeah.
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.079
I mean, that's that's how we had the.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:46.400
We were thinking, I mean, I'm 27, 28, and I'm thinking about how do I win a murder case when everybody's being paid off?
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:52.000
So what happened was, you know, I'm I'm I'm like, oh my gosh.
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.680
But when I looked at the case, and we were all of us were fed up with this corruption.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.920
It was so bad, it was disgusting.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:58.240
Okay.
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.400
I said, This is it, man.
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.359
I don't care what.
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:03.200
I'm gonna get this, we're gonna take this case.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:04.640
I called my partner Mike.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.640
I says, This case sucks, Mike.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.279
We're gonna lose it, but at least we'll get a trial.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:12.640
He goes, Fine, man, I'll take it with you.
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:23.599
So he took this case, and the book that I rewrote called Convergence is about what it took to go from the day my brother called to actually get this in front of a jury.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.519
There's an audio version too.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:26.079
What?
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:27.920
I said there's an audio version too.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:28.559
Yeah, there is.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:28.799
Yeah.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:34.400
And in the audio version, I actually give my actual closing argument that I gave right from the transcript.
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:40.400
So, you know, people a lot of true crime books, you know, well, they know who did it, or this and that.
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:41.279
This wasn't the way it was.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:42.720
Of course they knew who did it.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.839
What was what was weird about it was how long it took to get it to go to trial.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:48.319
Yeah.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.599
And why it took so long and what we had to go through.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:59.519
You know, people say, people tell me true crime is a convergence is a true crime story, and it is.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.640
But I think it's more a book about com perseverance.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:08.160
I mean, Mike and I had no witness, no evidence.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.319
Uh judges had almost destroyed the case.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:14.720
But we said, I don't give a I don't care.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.839
We're gonna we're gonna try to fix it, we're gonna try to make it right.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:18.559
And we did.
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:20.960
You know, the point is obstacles don't mean defeat.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.480
And you have people have to learn that.
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:22.799
Yeah.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.480
You know, just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you're gonna lose.
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.079
And a lot of people give up.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:36.160
What was your motivation in actually getting this, get going through this case when all the odds was against you?
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:49.119
Because, well, first of all, the fact that I'm staring at this guy and he's gonna think he's gonna walk in a double murder, stabbing two of his friends to death in front of a witness, and he's just gonna walk free because he's paying people, no way, man.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.920
If nothing else, we never approach it like we would win for sure.
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.839
We just said, at least we're gonna give the victims a voice.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.160
You know, people forget the victims.
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.240
I mean, I walk in to look for the core file.
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.960
The first thing that Sandy said to me is, well, you know, Greg, not only is the poison, but you know what?
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.119
They're all a bunch of drunk addicts anyway.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.960
Now, listen, think of this.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.160
I'm from a band.
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:14.880
You don't think I've been around people doing drugs?
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.119
Do you think I thought you should be executed because you had a party?
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:20.960
That's what people thought then.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:24.160
They thought if you got high, oh, so you get killed.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.119
Like prostitutes or people, women of the street.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.440
Like if they get killed, oh, it's too bad, it's her fault.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.279
Who thinks like that?
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.200
That's how people thought.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:34.079
You know.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:39.759
You didn't have like crazy amounts of money then.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.759
They had more money than you.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:46.000
So, what would make you go against people like that with money?
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.000
And was it some scary stuff happening towards you around that time?
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.799
Yep.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.920
Well, uh, that was the point, I think.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:54.880
I think, oh, really?
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.599
You think you're gonna buy your way out of this thing?
00:23:57.920 --> 00:23:58.880
No way, man.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:06.400
And it was like, you know, they say character isn't revealed when life is easy.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.759
It's revealed when doing the right thing can cost you.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:10.240
Uh-huh.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:11.519
And that's how we felt.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:14.000
I mean, we were not going to compromise what we believed in.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:16.640
That's just the kind of guys we were as pr as a team.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:21.519
And it was it it stood as a challenge against corruption.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.000
And we all wanted to do something about it.
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:25.759
But here was an opportunity.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:28.799
At least, at least possibly get a trial.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:30.240
Because they were going to throw it out.
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.079
There was going to be no trial.
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.599
Did you receive, I'm saying, did you like receive threats and stuff?
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:36.000
Yes.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:36.559
Yeah.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:38.000
What kind of threats were you receiving?
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.839
Well, the biggest thing I received was the night before my closing argument.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.759
Uh, we were finishing up for the day.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.839
Next day was the arguments in the morning.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.200
I get a call from a former classmate and a guy that used to work in our office.
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:52.559
Like 10 calls.
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.440
I get to my office, there's all these pink notes.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.720
Urgent, urgent.
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.559
I'm like, what's so urgent?
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.559
So I call him up and I say, hey, I'm not going to say his name.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.960
We'll just say Frank for a name.
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:05.920
Hey, Frank.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:06.319
What's up?
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:07.680
He goes, Man, I got to see you.
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.400
I got to see you.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:09.039
It's really important.
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:10.000
It involves your case.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.440
I go, Well, just tell me.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:12.160
No, no, no.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:13.279
It's got to be in person.
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.240
Well, the guy was so persistent, I'm like, what a pain.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:17.920
He says, Meet me at Geno's Eats.
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.519
It's a pizza place in Chicago.
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:20.480
So I do.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.880
And I walk in, he's sitting in a little booth.
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:24.640
He's got a duffel bag next to him.
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.039
And he's Oh, Greg, how you been, man?
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.440
You know, I had a nickname called Disco DA for some stupid oh, Disco.
00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:33.759
And he said, I said, Yeah, what's up, my man?
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.480
I'm sort of got to get finished getting ready for this argument.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:37.680
It's about seven o'clock.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.680
He said to me, You know, you got you're prosecuting the wrong guy.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.640
I'm looking at him like, yes, what?
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:45.839
He goes, Yeah, you are.
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.240
He goes, I know the defendant.
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:50.400
And he that's good, he's a good people, man.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.559
And I go, uh, no, he's not.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.079
He's a double murderer.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.119
Oh, no, no, no.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.440
And he's arguing with me out of nowhere.
00:25:57.519 --> 00:25:59.759
And he goes, well, let me put it this way.
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:05.119
His family is very appreciative of people who do the right thing.
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:14.400
He takes his, he takes his stuff up, he lifts it off the seat, he unzips it, and there's hundred-dollar bills and wrappers, and it was just packed with them.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:15.680
And he's holding it like this.
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:20.559
I'm like, I'm I'm still I'm like dumbfounded.
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.880
And he goes, There's$50,000 here.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:23.759
It's all yours.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:24.720
He zips it back in.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.640
All you got to do is tone down your closing argument.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.759
I was sort of known for closing arguments back in the day.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.720
And uh I looked forward to him.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:39.359
And I stared at him for a second and I said, F apostrophe.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:40.640
Yeah, you can say it.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:41.680
I said, fuck me.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:42.880
I said, fuck you, man.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.200
I'm gonna tell you what I said to him.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:51.359
I said, if you ever fucking come near me in the rest of my life, we're gonna have a big problem.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.920
And he sat there like, what's wrong, man?
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:55.680
I go, I said, you know what?
00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:00.400
To think that you thought I might take this fucking money, are you sick?
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:01.759
Where did you come up with that?
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:05.839
I mean, I was more insulted that he thought I might take it than he even offered it.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.640
So I left and went to payphone, called my partner, we called our boss, we reported the whole thing, you know.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:14.960
And then whatever happened then happened.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:16.240
I mean, I I'm out of it now.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.359
I mean, I gotta do a close argument the next day.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:21.519
But that's how desperate they got.
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:25.759
Because they realized, and they had three of the best criminal lawyers.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:27.359
They had the dream team at the time.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:31.680
I mean, their three lawyers combined had 98 years experience.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.240
My partner and I had a total of nine.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:36.960
I know they had to have it out for you after that.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:37.680
Oh, yeah.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:38.400
Yeah.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.319
I mean, there's another little sideline that's sort of sort of amusing.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:44.799
When I was in law school, I had the long hair.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:49.279
So my second year last semester, one of my classmates says, you know what?
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:56.400
You should take uh Sherman Maguson, he's a professor, uh, trial technique, trial advocacy, how to try a case.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.920
He said, because he only gives not worse grade as a B.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.160
Sounds good to me.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.440
So I take the class.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:05.200
Again, everybody's got suits and ties.
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.079
I got long hair and the whole yeah.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:10.559
I go through the course, I thought I did okay, you know.
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:12.079
Gets to the last day.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.039
He hands everybody their grade on a sheet of paper, folded over it, and you walk out, and that's the end of it.
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.599
But he said to me, Greg, could you stay over for a second?
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:20.960
Okay, you know.
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.039
He goes, I'm sitting at a desk like this.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:27.359
He takes another desk, he brings it so he's facing me, you know, his knees are almost touching mine.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:35.279
And he reaches over and puts his hand on my shoulder, like across, and he goes, I'm gonna give you some good advice, like a dad or something, you know.
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:38.480
He said, Um, I got your grade right here.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.519
It's the lowest grade I've ever given.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:46.000
He goes, You should have got a D, but I gave you a C minus.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.519
Because you do not have what it takes to be a trial lawyer.
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.519
You don't have the charisma, you don't have the style, you don't have the posture.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:55.200
He went out all litany.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.400
I'm like, I'm like 23, 24 years old.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.440
I didn't really want to be a lawyer anyway, but it was still insulting.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:02.079
I mean, you know.
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.440
And he goes, So if you become a lawyer, just be a corporate lawyer.
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:06.559
Don't ever go to court.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:13.440
Well, he was the lawyer that led that defense team that my partner and I went up against, and we took him down two hours.
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.640
The jury came back guilty of, I mean, quick.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:26.160
So when we were all done, and the judge, the jury left the courtroom, he stands up and we happen to cross pass, and there were some reporters there.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.240
And I said, Hey, Mr.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:32.240
Maggotson, not bad for a C minus student, huh?
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.799
So I got my day, comebacks of bitch, as they say.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.640
I mean, I never lost the case.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.960
I mean, and here's a guy telling me, that's what I'm saying.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.400
Don't let people affect how you run your life.
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.480
He told me I should, I mean, it's an expert telling me that I should never do this.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:49.519
Right.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:52.480
I mean, and like I said, I didn't plan it.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.480
But once I got into it, I mean, the good Lord gave me the talent.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:03.680
I mean, there's no question about it, because I never craved for it, didn't necessarily want to do it, yeah, but I did.
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:13.119
I want to give, like, I want to go back a little, give fair context to the to the way you look at things when you're trying things.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.680
So when you came from what was it, Minnesota or Canada?
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:18.480
Which part you say?
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.359
I lived south of Canada, then we live near the Minneapolis, St.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:21.839
Paul.
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.640
When you got to Chicago, it was a shock for you because of the racism.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:26.880
Oh.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.440
Because of where you come from, there wasn't.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.920
You and you was amongst people of color so much so.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:34.400
Yeah.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:50.400
So when you get here, I mean, when you get to Chicago and see that, talk about some of the things you you you had to go through, especially being a white man, being accepting to people of colour, black people, Mexicans, and all of that stuff.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:50.960
Like you.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:51.599
Yeah.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:52.079
Yeah.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:52.640
Yeah.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:57.440
Um, well, I was about 12, 13, the first time I heard the N-word, so to speak.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.400
You know what I mean?
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:00.160
I didn't know what it meant.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.039
You know, I said, what's that?
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.240
You know, of course, my white friend's like, what are you stupid?
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:07.039
And this and that.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.000
I go, why?
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.079
I mean, nobody had an explanation.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:13.519
That's just the way it is, you know.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:20.160
But you know, when you're raised knowing that's not how it is, I never went into it.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:21.599
I never fell prey to that.
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:26.880
Of course, and when I got into music, you know, it never was an issue.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:31.440
He's a drummer, he's a bass player, he's a keyboard player, he's a sax player.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.079
I don't care what color he is, it never even crossed my mind.
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.519
We don't care about that.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:39.920
So when I became a prosecutor, Chicago was very divided.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:43.680
I mean, it was pretty back in those days.
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:57.119
And I don't want to say I took he for it, but I can say this um there was uh not a policy, but sort of an unspoken when you select a jury, try to keep as many black people off the jury as you can.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.160
And I thought that was the absolute most stupid thing.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.880
I don't care racism or not, it's ignorant.
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:06.559
And I'll tell you why.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.759
One of the guys I played in the band with, his name was Reuben Locke.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.680
I loved Ruben, he was a great drummer, and I would stay at his house, you know.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:18.480
His mom, his dad was named Ruben, and and uh his dad was a bus driver.
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:30.480
And bus drivers I've found are the most down to earth, don't want crime, get sick of people giving them a hard time when they're driving their bus in any neighborhood.
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.400
They're not about color.
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:35.680
They're about leave me alone, let me drive my bus.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:45.599
So I, you know, so I told my one case, this one partner, and I said, first of all, I don't care what color, but he's a black, he's a bus driver.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:46.240
Too.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:48.559
Oh, I said, are you stupid?
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.160
Have you ever lived around black people?
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:51.039
Do you know what it's like?
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:56.240
Do you know what it's like to teach high school in a black community based on based on what they have to put up with?
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:00.480
They're not they're not against, they're for law and order.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:02.160
They want things to be controlled.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.319
And I said, There's no way.
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:05.839
I mean, we're stupid.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:07.119
And I wouldn't do it.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:16.480
I just wouldn't, they call that the uh, you know, pre like using your preemptory challenges to eliminate races, which is the dumbest thing you could do.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:25.519
I mean, there's those people in those communities are probably more against crime than us kids out in the suburbs that have never even seen crime.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:31.680
And I I knew that right away because to think that you just exclude people.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:40.079
And that was a that was where once I was told a supervisor came up to see us on trial.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.319
I mean, there were two or three black people in the jury, you know.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:48.880
When I left, they said I was told this you better win that case.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.720
You better win that case.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.559
As if, oh, if I don't, then what?
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:57.039
So it was it changed.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:58.000
Don't get me wrong.
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.839
I mean, within my office, two years older or younger made a big difference.
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:06.319
So as younger people were coming in after me, they didn't come with that attitude.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:10.400
And then there was an actual Supreme Court case that said you can't do that.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:16.480
Batson, you you that can't just and I never even considered it, you know.
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.119
I because I thought it was stupid too.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:20.800
Racist and stupid.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:26.639
I'm gonna go to the like Chicago like ghetto community and all of that stuff.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:36.400
Like, obviously, we don't have access to before the white people bring it to us, or whether the drugs and the alcohol putting the stuff, you know what I'm saying?
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:37.679
Putting the stuff in the hood.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.400
And I want to know how you looked at that in you know, we're dealing with poverty and all of that too.
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:50.159
So the positions you put in to have to make money or whatever, and you it some can't get jobs, or you know what I mean?
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.519
How did you look at that?
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.239
That uh I looked at it as if people had no hope.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:55.599
I mean, there was no hope.
00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:02.960
I mean, you're living in a community where there aren't jobs that that really mean anything, and how do you get them?
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:08.960
You know, um, the unions were all pretty much one, you know, one race.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:15.519
And so the opportunities weren't there, and you and when you're a young person, I became a gang prosecutor.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.239
I became the first chief of gang prosecutors.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.480
And I really learned even more then is that um who are the idols?
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:23.920
You know, who do you look up to?
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:24.960
Who's got the nice car?
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:26.480
Who's got the nice stuff?
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:27.840
The drug dealers.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.159
You know, so where's who who other idols do you have?
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:38.159
I mean, unless you play basketball really well or some sports, what's your escape?
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:39.199
It's not easy.
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:49.440
And you know, you got a lot of women who are single parents and they're trying to work their job and take care of their family, and they're they got these young boys, and who are they looking up to?
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:49.760
Yeah.
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.840
So there's nobody else, you know.
00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:04.079
And and and you know, when you when you appreciate what the situation is, it makes it somewhat not easy, but you understand what you're dealing with, okay?
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:10.639
And I think that's why this in this convergence case, I see this white kid man, multimillionaire at every opportunity in the world.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:18.880
Could have and he's in a th he's in a wife of a double murder, and all these other people who can't afford a great attorney, they may not even be guilty.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:20.559
But how what are their chances are?
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:25.119
And it just it was just one of those situations I just said I've had enough, I can't deal with this.
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:33.360
So, yeah, I mean, I I I I approached it from a totally different way because I didn't, I wasn't raised.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:40.559
I I mean, I was like someone was dropped from somewhere else in this system because I didn't come from the background that most of these people did.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:43.599
Yeah, it was a unique experience.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.599
So, yo, you you come from there uh like Larry Hoover and all of them, right?
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:50.960
I met Larry Hoover.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:51.519
You did?
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:52.639
What was that like?
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:54.000
He was cool.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:37:05.840
I mean, here's what happened when I became the head of the gang unit on the west side of Chicago and Cabrini Green and West, there were two prevalent gangs, the gangster disciples and the vice lords.
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.400
And they were at serious war.
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:15.599
Now, the problem that created a lot of heat was a lot of gang members aren't good shots.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:20.400
They'll be running down an alley, pointing a gun behind them and shooting at the people chasing them.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:21.280
And guess what?
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.840
A lot of people get shot that aren't part of any of this.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:25.920
And that's what was happening.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:26.320
Okay.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.760
A lot of people were getting innocent people were getting shot.
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:35.280
So my boss at the time said to me, Why don't you see if you can talk to Larry Hoover and Willie Lloyd?
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.679
Willie Lloyd ran the vice lords, Hoover was the gangster disciples.
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:41.440
So I did.
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:43.840
So I went to prison, met him.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:44.880
He was cool.
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.039
I said, Man, you know, here that's what I said to him.
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:53.280
I said, you know, I'm out here trying to get things under control and get the bad guys off the street and the killers.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:54.559
I said, but you know what?
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:56.239
You have more control than me.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:57.840
You and Willie Lloyd do.
00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:05.119
I said, because you could tell these people to cool a little bit and quit shooting people innocently and be a little at least be controlled the way you approach.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:06.719
You're supposed to be a community group.
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:07.679
That's how they, you know.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.719
And he said, okay, man, I'll see what I could do.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.239
I went, well, Liddy Lloyd.
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:14.719
And you know, for nine months the crime went down.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.559
And it erupted again.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.159
But I mean, it worked.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.559
I mean, it's just because nobody's willing to approach people as people, you know.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.320
He was Larry Hoover, and I knew I knew who he was.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.480
I mean, he was he ran it from the prison.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.920
I mean, there's no question about it.
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:39.280
And because then I knew he did, and we were understood that, that he would have the ability, if he so chose, lay back here, cool it.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:46.159
And uh, innocent people getting murdered went down dramatically in that area of the city.
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:55.039
Are you have you paid attention much to what goes on in the news as far as the gang banging now?
00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:02.480
Like what's going on in the streets with the you know, King Vines and uh well, that didn't really happen in Chicago, but like the Old Block in Chicago.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:10.559
And all of that, when you compare the two eras, like this era versus that era, like where did it get worse?
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:12.000
It's completely different.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:13.519
And I'll tell you what.
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:20.559
The fact that I was able to talk to two men and get the violence down, that's impossible today.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:22.719
There's no two men running anything, see.
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:32.320
And the reason that happened, in my opinion, when they tore down Cabrini Green and the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, there were gang members, many living in those buildings.
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:33.519
They controlled the buildings.
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.840
But when you tear something down, where do you send the people?
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.719
Where do they go now?
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:37.679
Well, now what?
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:38.880
What did you just do?
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:47.760
So people that would live like in a certain building, which was a there was black disciples and black gangs, certainly, they're different, you know.
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:55.519
They might move to their a home in the south side where the opposition gang was across the street.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.960
That's what you've got now.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:02.400
You've got one block, there's a gang, next block, there's a gang, all remnants of the past.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:09.840
Whereas when you had leaders, Jeff Ford, who was the El Rukins, he was a company, he could control what was going on.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.719
I mean, wasn't much different than the mafia one time.
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:21.760
I mean, and when you it's funny though, when you when you break these things apart, you've got these little satellites, and they're there's no control.
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:33.039
I mean, I I don't I I'm not certain, but I think that more communicating with the leadership at the time would have worked better than the way they did it.
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:34.480
That's just my opinion.
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.400
How was it with the mafia back then, too?
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:49.599
Um drug dealing in Chicago or the drug distribution, distribution at the time, they didn't have very much power.
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:57.599
I mean, they had some, but I mean it was I mean, when you get the Al Rukans and these gangs, they're in charge.
00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:58.639
They took over.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:40:59.920
I mean, they really control.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.079
I mean, they're they might the mafia might have some in-roads with what's going on in Colombia or wherever it's coming from.
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.840
But as far as no, they they they they took over.
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:12.239
I mean, that's who was running it for sure.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.480
At least uh at least as far as we knew.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:18.880
Yeah, can you get into the the royal family or yeah, royal family?
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:19.280
Yeah.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.199
Oh, you heard of royal family?
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:23.119
You heard of royal family?
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.800
Yeah, yeah, that one and then, because I do my research ahead of time as well.
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:29.920
Um the royal family, and then I believe it was Murray.
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.199
Murray Hooper.
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:33.119
Hooper, yeah.
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:35.679
Um, it was definitely the royal family.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.639
That was the biggest case I've ever tried before since.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.760
Okay, what do you think?
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:46.159
And the royal family, uh, the tribune wrote an article about them, full page.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.960
The leader's name was Roger Connors, Coachese, also known as the Chief.
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:55.039
They were like between, say, 35 and 40.
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.239
They weren't kids.
00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:01.199
They had all been members of various gangs and they had served a lot of time in prison, many, many years.
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.880
And while they were in prison, they met some members of the Chicago mob.
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:18.079
And the plan was put together that they, when they got out, they would form their own organization and become a professional hit squad across the country for the mob.
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:19.760
And why would they do that?
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.960
Money.
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:25.360
But no one would ever link these black guys to the Italian mob.
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.159
You never heard of such, they would think you never heard of this.
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.639
They thought it through.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:32.239
And so that's what they became.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:42.239
They became not only did they control drug traffic and the drug dealers, they also, on different times of the day or week, they go out and commit hits across the country.
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:50.400
And the newspaper did a story, and the headline was The Royal Family Are the Kings of Killing.
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:59.920
So my next book is called Pursuing Kings, because that was a case that got dropped in my lap the first day I became chief of gang prosecutions.
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.320
It's the biggest case ever to this day.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:06.000
No case has ever been bigger than that one, as far as except for John Wayne Casey.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.880
I mean, these guys were responsible for well over a hundred executions or whatever.
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:13.119
And it was it was a business.
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:18.079
Uh they knew it well, and they messed up on one case pretty bad.
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:19.599
They got caught.
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.119
So uh it wasn't fun going after them.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.320
We had a flipper who was a driver on a triple.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.000
These guys were shotgun, gang, uh, drug dealer.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:34.960
And uh the flipper, I turned them into a witness for us.
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.159
They tried to kill him in the witness protection.
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.159
That's how much power they had.
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:41.360
Because they had mob power.
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:50.000
See, because they were so mobbed up too, in a way, the mob wanted to protect them also because that was their their they were doing a good job for them, you know.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:56.079
And then they went and did a double murder in Arizona my contract, and that was their undoing.
00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:59.760
That in that particular case, they were trying to.
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:06.400
The mob in Chicago, Joe Ferriola and some other names were listed as possible.
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:11.679
They were relatives of one of the guys in Arizona that contracted the royal family.
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:25.119
They went to this house and they were going to take out the owner of the household because he owned a printing company that the mob wanted to buy so they could start printing chips and counterfeit money to go to Las Vegas, which is pretty close, you know.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:28.880
And he and his partner, his partner was all for selling, but not him.
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.719
So he said, we'll take him out.
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:32.000
So they go out to do it.
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:38.400
Now there's three of them: a Phoenix police officer and Murray Hooper and William Bracey, members of the royal family.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.679
They show up in New Year's Eve at these people's houses about 8 o'clock.
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:54.400
They go get in, they tie everybody up, put them on a bed, put stocks in their pocket, in their mouth, tape, duct tape them, hogtime, and then they shoot the man twice in the head, so his throat.
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:58.880
His wife's mother was in town from Iowa visiting.
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:00.079
She was 72.
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:01.840
They shot her twice in the head.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:13.920
He shot the wife in the back of the head, but it didn't transverse up.
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:15.679
It transfers down.
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:16.320
Mr.
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:19.199
Carotid Artery, I mean, this is a miracle.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:19.760
Mr.
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.039
Spinal cord, they left.
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:25.360
She comes too.
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:28.480
She's drowning on her own blood because of the sock.
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:32.719
But there was so much blood on it, she pushed her tongue and able to get the blood to come out.
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:40.800
The woman had the wherewithal being shot in the neck to roll off the bed down the hallway, all duct tape.
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:44.159
The people that were coming to their New Year's Eve party are pounding on the door.
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.519
Nobody's answering.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.159
They look and they see her on the floor.
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:50.559
She survives.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.760
And more than that, they didn't wear masks.
00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:00.880
One thing I tell people if somebody's in there robbing your house at a home invasion, not wearing masks, the odds are pretty good you're probably going to get killed.
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.480
Because if they're not hiding their identity, they don't want to leave witnesses.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:06.559
They screwed up in that one.
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:09.280
She was able to ID them eventually.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.480
Which pretty turned it, they turned the case.
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:14.880
And then there was the flipper in Chicago.
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:17.280
There was a young woman named Laverne Lyle.
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:19.440
She was 19 years old when I met her.
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.719
She had already had five children, which is sad.
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:24.639
I mean, you know, living by herself.
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:25.440
Yeah.
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.079
And she had seen the night of a triple murder in Chicago.
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:36.559
She had seen the royal family guys leading three men that were tied, hands tied behind their back, and get into a car.
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:42.000
She had seen the R flipper, the witness who was the driver, and the three gang members.
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:47.039
And after this all went down, she had anonymously called the police.
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:50.400
She says, I gotta, I gotta get my kids out of this neighborhood.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.320
I mean, I I gotta tell you something.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.199
I have but you gotta promise me I can move.
00:46:56.559 --> 00:46:59.280
So I talked to her and we move her.
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.320
We move her witness witness protection program.
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.320
She testified she saw him leading.
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.400
We don't have anybody except for the driver, the car, the flipper.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:11.440
So you know, flipper, take change of sides, yeah.
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:12.800
That's what it is.
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:18.559
Um, he he's the only person that actually could testify that they did it.
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:21.039
So we put him in witness protection.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:23.119
They tried to, he got almost got killed in that.
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:26.320
That we had to move him to Fredville Witness Protection.
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.840
So it was uh never a dull moment.
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:36.239
And I'm back and forth to Arizona with this the woman that survived came to Chicago, ID'd them as the ones in Phoenix.
00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:52.159
I mean, it was a it was uh pretty scary and pretty the witnesses are like the the the flipper the the I the guy that was our on our turn side, gotcha, his name was Morris Nellum, M-O-R.
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.360
He had a twin brother named Norris Nellum.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.480
Now, Norris was a member of the royal family.
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:07.199
And so Morris, who was born like two minutes later, he was known as twin, you know, on the street.
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:09.920
He wasn't because Norris was the cool guy.
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:17.440
Well, we had to move Norris out of Illinois to another prison in another state because they would have taken we had to move his family in Texas.
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:22.559
Everybody had to be relocated because they definitely would have taken somebody out, his girlfriend.
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.119
So that was another thing, just dealing with that.
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.719
You know, we're not the feds.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:30.480
The feds, we don't do this, but we had to learn real quick.
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.159
The feds weren't gonna help us.
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:34.960
It's funny how they don't get involved when they don't want to.
00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:38.480
Except for eventually they did when we banged almost.
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:43.119
This guy's gonna get killed if we don't, we we can't protect them that way that you guys can.
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.840
So that was that was pretty bad.
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.960
They all they were all tried and all sentenced to the death to death.
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.199
All of them, both cases.
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:58.320
You don't be scared in these moments when you're doing this?
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:05.599
Well, yeah, no, I mean, first of all, it's unlike some countries, usually you don't kill the prosecutor.
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:07.119
No, I had it happen to me.
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:09.760
I did have somebody put a legitimate hit on me.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:18.239
They stole the service air missile out of an Army Reserve base thing, and they're gonna blow up my house and kill my wife at the time and baby.
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:24.880
So, I mean, that sort of shook me up because they recovered that missile and the launcher.
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:36.800
So it was it wasn't just and that was testified to in a courtroom by a witness that was present when this kind of they had my address, knew where I lived.
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:41.360
My wife and my child had to go live in San Diego for six months.
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.719
I'm holed up with the police in a hotel, which I hated.
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:46.639
That sucked.
00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:51.760
But you know, it it's like it's like you're in war, you know.
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:56.880
I mean, my boss from Daly had said we're this is we declared war on gangs.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:01.840
Well, what you don't realize when you say those kind of things, the other side goes, oh, really?
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.119
You declare war on us?
00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:03.920
Well, guess what?
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.159
It's a war, then we're gonna fight it like a war.
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:07.119
That was a mistake.
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:08.559
He shouldn't have said that.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.159
Um sorry, Rich.
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:14.400
Uh that wasn't a good way to approach what we were doing.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:16.400
And every there was posters everywhere.
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:18.000
War on grand gangs.
00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:19.360
He said, Are you just a sheep?
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:20.320
Are you a follower?
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.320
I mean, really clastic comments, and they were printed in all the high schools.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.280
So um, yeah, it wasn't uh it wasn't the way, you know.
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:33.519
I I I'm just taking orders, and you know, okay, that's what you're doing.
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:40.719
So, yeah, that way I had three legitimate contracts put on me.
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.679
And I'd never had I never dealt with that.
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:46.639
You know, I didn't think you kill a prosecutor.
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:48.079
I guess you they tried.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:50.400
They took it, took it serious.
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:54.559
Contract was if you don't kill him, kill his wife and baby.
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:55.039
Yeah.
00:50:55.280 --> 00:51:01.920
And so he happened to be the the uh leader of this gang, it was a Latin gang, Spanish Cobras.
00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:10.079
He had been in a hospital because he was having a problem in prison, uh-huh and he was laying in the bed next to an armed robber who had a problem.
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:17.360
Well, that for some reason the prison officials let this guy's gang of members in to his hospital room next to this guy.
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:23.519
And he heard the guy, the guy next door heard him planning this hit and break detail.
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:28.079
So he contacted the authorities when he got out of the hospital.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:35.599
And quote unquote, when he talked to me, he goes, Man, I didn't give a shit if they kill your ass, but that ain't white killing your wife and baby.
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.039
That's exactly how he said it.
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:39.039
I don't give a shit if they kill your ass.
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:40.000
I mean, that's what he said.
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:40.559
I don't care.
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:41.840
I mean, yeah, yeah.
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:44.719
That's your problem, but not your wife and baby.
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.199
Which I thought was pretty honorable, to be honest with you.
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:50.079
I mean, I mean, that tells you something, you know.
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.920
And he testified in court, there's newspaper stories about it, right?
00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:55.599
Just said it just like that.
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.800
Well, what was your wife's reaction to towards you, though?
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.800
Was she like, hey bro, you gotta get up out there?
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:01.199
I don't know.
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:02.800
She was pretty strong, you know.
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:08.079
Um, they moved out winter's protection in California for a few months.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.559
Um, but I don't know.
00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:12.239
I mean, she took it better than I thought.
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:13.440
We changed her name.
00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:17.440
There, I I gave her it, we gave her a different last name than mine.
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:21.599
And everything would that any utilities were not in her my name.
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:28.320
Like my son to this day doesn't have a social media account because he got the same name as me.
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.360
He wanted somebody to get confused.
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:34.559
I'm not concerned about it any longer.
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:35.119
Yeah.
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:44.400
I mean, you know, I as old as I am, almost everybody I prosecute is is it was as old if not older, and they're gone.
00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:48.719
Or I just don't think I mean here's the thing: we weren't framing people.
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.000
I mean, when you frame people, then somebody's got to reason to come back at you.
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:57.840
When you're doing what they know they did wrong, eventually they'd get over you.
00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.239
Because it's not like you made it up.
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:04.239
You make it up, you may be making your own bed too.
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:06.320
That's a different story.
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:16.480
So I think when you when you can live your life knowing you did that you did the right thing and you did not cross that line, I don't I don't worry about it.
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:18.159
I really don't.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:39.920
And when you talk about corruption in that system, what's the the the worst way you've seen something tried or well I sat in a courtroom as a judge, uh, first of all, in the criminal court system, as some people can tell you, if a defendant takes a bench trial, that's a little weird.
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:43.440
Because judges, no bullshit.
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:49.360
You can't you can't pull the wool normally, unless the judge is corrupt, over a judge's eyes, right?
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:53.360
They they see what's, you know, juries you can play with a little bit, but not judge.
00:53:53.679 --> 00:54:00.639
So when a defendant takes a bench trial, you're like, hmm, well, it's a little weird.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:03.119
Well, in this case, I was a witness to it.
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:05.280
I was there, I was just in the courtroom.
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:08.000
Uh, there was a hitman named Harry Aylman.
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:11.280
He was the number one hitman for the mob at the time.
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.039
Number one guy.
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:20.800
He had killed a um a union, the head of a union that they uh shot him right outside his house in the morning.
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:26.239
There were two eyewitnesses who weren't were just one guy was walking his dog and somebody was out get getting their milk.
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:29.840
We used to deliver your milk by your porch, getting their milk.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:31.760
They saw the whole thing.
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:33.679
They told the police.
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:35.840
They testified.
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:38.000
But he took a bench trial.
00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:41.599
And the judge got up there and said, Not guilty.
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.960
We're like, not guilty.
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:50.000
Then we found out later the judge took 10 grand and he eventually shot himself.
00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.920
Committed suicide when the Feds were just about to get him.
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:55.920
It came out.
00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:58.960
You know, normally when you have a not guilty, that's jeopardy, right?
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:08.800
Uh the first time I think in history that a person found not guilty, the courts ruled, no, we could try him again because it would the first one wasn't legit.
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:09.119
Okay.
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.159
They proved, they basically proved the judge took money.
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.000
They had the guy that paid him.
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:15.519
So they retried him.
00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:16.639
He got life.
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.119
Same, but years later.
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.679
I think 15 years later.
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.360
So that was pretty raunchy corruption that we all knew.
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:34.400
Is that what ultimately like uh made you get away from prosecuting?
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:40.800
Well I didn't, I never encountered, and I'm not taking sides here.
00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:44.480
I never encountered at the time a corrupt prosecutor.
00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:47.760
Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying whether there was or wasn't.
00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:52.639
I never, and I honestly can say that because a good boy, never once.
00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:57.920
So no, I I got out of it because for the first reason was because you can't make a living.
00:55:58.239 --> 00:55:58.880
And not then.
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:00.559
It was the pay was so bad.
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.280
I mean, it was the greatest experience on earth.
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:10.400
I mean, I tried 64 felony jury trials, 62 or murders by the age of 33.
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:13.360
That's pretty good, that's a lot of experience, quickly.
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:18.639
So usually the only path was go to become a criminal defense attorney, which I did for a while.
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:19.599
I just didn't like it.
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:23.599
I I just I never wanted to be a lawyer anyway.
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:28.320
I mean, the prosecution was just I thought we were doing the right thing and I was speaking for victims, you know.
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:33.119
I mean, if I had just run around doing chocolate cases all day, I would have left a lot sooner than that.
00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.559
But this was something I felt made a difference, you know, in it.
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:42.400
And we were do we we we we weren't framing people and making up evidence and hiding evidence.
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:44.559
I couldn't live with myself if I did that.
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:51.840
I mean, we represent supposedly justice, and that's a nice word to use, but in my case, we really did think that way.
00:56:52.400 --> 00:57:00.480
So um I got back in the music business, and then I got back into some other unrelated businesses and did very well.
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:12.239
So I never um I I enjoy watching sometimes these live TV shows, uh movies on uh not movies, um trials on TV.
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:18.079
Uh and I I only watch them to see the skill of the attorneys, the attitude of a judge.
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:21.760
But you know, sometimes they're really good, sometimes they really suck.
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.599
So it just depends on the case.
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:24.320
Yeah.
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:28.239
Mentally, do that get overwhelming though?
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:31.599
The the the amount of murders you gotta do.
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:40.239
I tell I I'll tell you when it when it really uh first time it hit me round about, um, I was having lunch.
00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:42.400
I had been doing these for like eight years.
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:45.840
I was running the gang unit, you know, and tried all these murder cases.
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:53.440
And I was going over a case, and there was pictures of a a young woman and her and her friend who had been shot by a rival gang.
00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:56.800
They weren't gang members, and part of her head was missing, you know.
00:57:57.039 --> 00:58:04.320
And I'm looking for clues at the crime scene where she was to help maybe sometimes you find things in pictures.
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:06.239
It's hard to, you know, the angles.
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:10.960
And I was having lunch in the lunchroom where the courthouse was.
00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:19.920
And I'm sitting right here, and I got my file, and I got these pictures, and I ordered some food, you know, and I'm just God, they're eight by ten color right here.
00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:24.639
Woman walks up and screams and drops the plate of food on the floor.
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:30.159
She's like, Oh my god, I can't believe you're looking at that while you're having a lunch.
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:33.920
And I'm like, Oh, really?
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:36.159
Didn't even affect me.
00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:40.880
See, I mean, I would look at gore and I only looked at it as evidence.
00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:47.119
I mean, I I would think about the people, but at that moment, that was evidence, you know.
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:52.719
And that's what struck me like you've lost your uh you've lost your sensitivity to everything.
00:58:52.960 --> 00:59:02.320
I mean, I mean, it made me think maybe you should do something different for a while because I mean I was hardcore too, you know.
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:07.840
So even like death in your family and stuff, it really didn't get to you at that.
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:17.599
Well, I was um I would come, I would come home and I'd still have cases on my mind, you know what I mean?
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:24.719
And I'd I know their mother would say I would pace downstairs at night, you know, thinking about cases.
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:32.639
And the more I did that, the more I I I don't want to say I was losing sense of reality, I was losing a sense of humanity.
00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:41.039
Because it was just give the victims a voice, get the bad guy, you know, and how are we gonna do it?
00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:43.840
And I'm gonna do everything I can to do it.
00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:45.599
And so I became obsessed with it.
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.000
I mean, it was like I was a crusader, you know.
00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:50.079
And you can't do that.
00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:55.840
You get too deep, you lose your objectivity, and that's bad too.
00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:02.559
So, and I think I I I still had it, but I'm pretty sure I got out at the right time.
01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:07.119
I wonder how how'd you look at the Menendez brother trip?
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:09.440
In what respect?
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:12.000
And I I thought it was a joke.
01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:19.519
I said, like I I've told my daughter, I said, you know, you can make all you want about dad abused them, so they shot that.
01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:20.800
Why'd they shoot mom?
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:23.679
What's the excuse for shooting mom?
01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:26.239
Oh, because she didn't want to live without her husband?
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:28.639
That's an excuse to kill him or her.
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:33.760
I think if they wouldn't have killed her, they would have had a better shot at their defense.
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:36.000
Yeah, mom takes it off the table.
01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:36.960
You don't have a defense.
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.400
You can do what you think about dad, no reason to shoot mom.
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:41.039
Okay.
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:42.320
That's what I thought.
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:49.039
Uh that that just randomly popped in my head to remember some of the details of uh John Wayne Gacy.
01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:49.760
Yeah.
01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:51.679
Uh very well.
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:53.519
Very, very well.
01:00:53.599 --> 01:01:04.559
I was at a, it was uh, I think Chris just before Christmas, 1978, I was at it, we were having a uh 26th Street prosecutor dinner, like you know, for for Christmas.
01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:09.440
And I my boss was in Bill Kunkel, who became the prosecutor of John Gacy.
01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:14.960
And he was sitting next to me, and we were sitting there, and all of a sudden somebody comes up to me and says, uh, Mr.
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.039
Kunkel, you got a phone call.
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:18.400
So he leaves, you know.
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:20.320
He was a soup, he was a boss, you know.
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:23.599
He comes back and he, you know, this guy liked food.
01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:25.519
I mean, this man loved food.
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:27.840
And he didn't hardly eat anything.
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:30.079
So he says, I gotta go.
01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:30.800
I go, what's up?
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:33.119
He goes, they found a bunch of bodies in a basement.
01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:34.800
That's all I heard at the time.
01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:36.320
I'm like, what?
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:42.320
And I eventually went into the house after they tore the floor up back in the day.
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:47.119
I was there in Somerdale, suburbs of Chicago.
01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:54.159
And during the course of that case, um, I was very close to Bill Conko, very close.
01:01:54.320 --> 01:02:00.000
Um, I walked into court one day when the jury was out of the courtroom, and I just wanted to drop a message off to him.
01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:06.559
And Casey was sitting in a chair, like maybe a little closer than you are, and you could feel evil.
01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:08.400
I never felt evil before.
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:09.360
I felt evil.
01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:13.519
I mean, this this guy was frightening just to be a the aura was there.
01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:17.760
You could just feel this horrible, and it radiated.
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:23.519
And I was young, blonde haired, you know, and he's like, smiled at me.
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:25.599
I said, Oh, I almost threw up.
01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:29.599
Like he's smirking at me as I'm talking to my boss.
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:31.440
Evil.
01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:33.280
That was scary.
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:35.599
Never went back in that corner today.
01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:38.800
Not even the way I just couldn't be around the guy.
01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:39.119
Yeah.
01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:40.800
And most people felt that way about.
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:42.960
It was a terrible feeling.
01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:47.599
Was it something you had to do to get just just in case you ran into something like that again?
01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:51.360
Did you have to prep yourself to be able to Yeah?
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:54.719
I mean, Roger Collins, the leader of the royal family.
01:02:55.440 --> 01:03:06.079
He was like, he was so cool, he was suave, he was smart, he was calculated, but he was pure evil.
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:09.599
But he was like, he was a gentleman.
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:12.559
Good morning, Mr.
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:13.360
Owen.
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:17.119
And I know that guy would take me out and shoot me in one second.
01:03:17.679 --> 01:03:24.800
One time during the course of the trial, I had gone to the lockup to talk to some other person, and he was there.
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:29.440
I had never heard the expression before, so maybe I was stupid.
01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:32.559
He goes, Hey, Mr.
01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:33.280
Owen.
01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:35.360
This guy was built too.
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:38.880
He was like rocky, but a lot taller, in perfect condition.
01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:41.840
He's I walk along, I said, Hey, what's that, Roger?
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:48.480
He says, You keep fucking with us, and we may put some red rum on your ass.
01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:50.559
What does that mean?
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:52.079
Red rum.
01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:54.239
It's murder, you know.
01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:55.440
I didn't know what it meant.
01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:58.719
I go and tell somebody go, what the fuck is Calentworth?
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:00.480
Red rum on my ass.
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.440
That wasn't fun, man.
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:06.000
When I realized what he said, I'm like, ooh.
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.559
Yeah.
01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:09.840
Yeah.
01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:12.880
That was that was a little eye-opening.
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:26.880
It gotta be like something to be the man in the streets, run the streets, even run, run a lot of the people in law and stuff, and then lose to a blonde-haired ex-rock star.
01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:29.199
Blonde or blue eyed, too.
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:31.360
Even worse.
01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:33.519
Yeah.
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:37.199
Man, are you kidding me?
01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:42.079
Murdering people and like still like a sore thumb down there, man.
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:46.159
He just he said it as calm as he could, too.
01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:48.000
He just leaned like this ego.
01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:52.719
He said, he says that, hey, Miss Downey, you keep fucking with us the way you are.
01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.199
We might put some red rum on your ass.
01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.559
I'm thinking, was they gonna pour something in my ass or something?
01:04:58.639 --> 01:04:59.679
Some red rum or something.
01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:01.599
I mean, that's how stupid I was.
01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:04.400
So I went outside and said, hey man, he put.
01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:09.519
I didn't say anything to nobody.
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:12.079
I mean, you know, that's being an asshole too.
01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:13.519
So it's what he said, fine.
01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:14.239
That's what he said.
01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:19.360
You didn't get yourself into any training as far as like self-defense or anything?
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:22.000
No, I no, they yeah, yes, they did.
01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:27.119
They put me through a course in firing a handgun, you know, three weeks.
01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:29.360
So I was packing most of the time.
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:29.920
Okay.
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:32.719
And they gave me a special place to park in the back.
01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:34.400
But you know, guns are bullshit too.
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:37.039
If somebody comes on, you don't have time to grab your gun.
01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:39.360
I mean, you're done.
01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:41.199
And I knew that.
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:43.760
I had a police radio in the car.
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:49.280
Back in those days, see, we didn't have any cell phones, no car phone, none none of that stuff.
01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:56.000
I guess it just made me I guess maybe it just made me feel better because it wouldn't have done anything if something would have happened.
01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:58.719
But yeah, they did, they trained me.
01:05:59.199 --> 01:05:59.599
Oh, yeah.
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:01.440
One more thing before we do this.
01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:06.800
For those of us who don't know, can you explain to us the different levels of prosecution?
01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:08.000
Different levels?
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:08.639
Yeah.
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:16.159
Well, basically there's there's there's two types of prosecution.
01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:16.559
Okay.
01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.719
One's called vertical prosecution and one's called horizontal.
01:06:21.039 --> 01:06:26.400
And what it means is this in felonies, for example, a person gets arrested for a felony.
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:35.840
At that point, like in Illinois, a prosecutor is called and he determines whether or not there's sufficient evidence to charge a felony.
01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.519
It's called a felony review assistant, you know, newer guys.
01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:46.159
Then after that, the case gets assigned to a bond judge who's a different state attorney.
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:49.199
Then after the bond judge, it goes for a preliminary hearing.
01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:52.639
Different judge, a different prosecutor, different level.
01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:58.559
After the preliminary hearing, if there's probable cause, it's sent to the grand jury, the guy's indicted.
01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.440
Now it gets assigned to a felony trial court.
01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:07.039
And once it's there, there's usually, at least in my case, there were three prosecutors per courtroom.
01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:10.480
One was the boss, like a pilot, a co-pilot, and flight engineer.
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:14.320
And that case would be that would be assigned in that courtroom.
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:16.400
Now those prosecutors get rotated in and out.
01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:26.400
So the day a case gets charged, there's one, two, three, there could be six or seven different prosecutors who have that case before they go to trial.
01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:34.000
So you're not as actually as familiar as the one in the beginning was because you weren't there.
01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:45.039
Vertical prosecution, like we had in the gang unit, the minute that crime is committed and there's arrest mate, somebody from my unit shows up and they stay with that case from beginning to end.
01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:49.440
They try the case, they do the preliminary hearing, they question the witnesses, they do everything.
01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:51.119
Far more effective.
01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:55.280
But there's not the manpower for every department to have that.
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:57.599
But that's how we did it then.
01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:01.280
You you obviously gotta get your chops and stuff too.
01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:10.239
So uh you had to be a public defender as a at a point where you have to go to No, start right out as a prosecutor.
01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:11.280
Okay.
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:16.479
Well you well, you start out misdemeanor court or a traffic court or something.
01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:24.560
So you you learn to try cases with stuff that, you know, if you screw it up, killers aren't gonna walk free because of a shoplifting case, right?
01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:28.000
So that's the proving ground, training ground, you know.
01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:34.079
And you try m hundreds of cases almost a day, and so you're learning to think on your feet.
01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:35.279
You gotta think quick.
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:38.960
And if you don't, your bosses find out you're done.
01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:41.039
I mean, you gotta be able to adapt.
01:08:41.359 --> 01:08:49.039
And that's how they make a determination whether you're gonna be good in the front of a jury is how quick you react to situations that occur in the courtroom.
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:56.239
Interestingly, we uh had an impromptu thought about you sitting down with somebody from the streets.
01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:57.199
So is that right?
01:08:57.359 --> 01:09:03.199
Yeah, so one of our YouTube favorites, our channel favorites, Akasha has came.
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:05.760
Well, I don't know if he wants to go by Akasha or Arsenio.
01:09:06.079 --> 01:09:08.239
You know, he named after Arsenio Hall.
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:08.880
Of course.
01:09:09.039 --> 01:09:09.439
Yes.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:11.119
He's named after Arsenio.
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:11.920
Is that right?
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:13.680
Yeah.
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:14.960
He was one of my favorites.
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:18.319
So I loved Arsenio Man back in the day.
01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:20.239
My name is Akasha.
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:23.600
Uh, my birth name is Arsenio Williams.
01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:26.479
Uh I'm from Kansas City, Missouri.
01:09:26.640 --> 01:09:29.840
I'm a third-generation Avalon Gangster Crip.
01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:39.039
So what that means is my father, aunts, uncles was all first generation Crips.
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:41.359
And then I'm the baby.
01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:43.920
So my father is the baby out of his siblings.
01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:47.840
So all of his kids are the babies of the cousins.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:50.560
So the second generation is my older cousins.
01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:55.600
Some of my older cousins in their 40s and 50s, and they've been gang banging since the 80s.
01:09:55.680 --> 01:10:01.600
So, and then it came to me, my little brother, and my sister was able to avoid it anyway.
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.840
Like Crip, gang banging was like my birthright.
01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:13.439
Uh my mom lived in Kansas City, so I went back and forth between Kansas City and Watts from Avalon Garden Projects.
01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:14.640
That's in Watts.
01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:19.119
And if you know anything about LA, Watts has always been fucked up.
01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:22.319
It's never been a good time in Watts.
01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:24.239
Um, came a crib.
01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:26.880
I was going back and forth between Watts and Kansas City.
01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:36.720
And at the age of 16, I was charged with five first-degree murders, five armed criminal actions, two kidnappings, two disposing of bodies.
01:10:37.039 --> 01:10:40.800
And I was facing the death penalty at 16.
01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:44.079
But they eventually ended up dropping a bunch of the cases.
01:10:44.239 --> 01:10:48.479
And at 18, I was found guilty of second-degree murder, armed criminal action.
01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:50.800
I was sentenced to life in a penitentiary.
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:52.640
I went to the penitentiary.
01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:56.880
I went, they sent me to the worst penitentiary in the state of Missouri at 18.
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:11.680
And throughout my time in prison, I probably was one of the most aggressive and violent dudes coming from Kansas City as far as like born in the 80s.
01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:12.800
You know what I mean?
01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:19.520
I had a lot, I caught a lot of major violations, but I never caught another case because I already had a life sentence.
01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:20.960
I was never supposed to get out.
01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:27.520
But during the course of my incarceration, I started writing urban fiction books.
01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:39.119
So I wrote maybe 110 books throughout my time in jail from between 2014 and I came home in 2023.
01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:45.520
So between 2014 and roughly like 2021, 2022, I wrote 110 urban fiction books.
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:49.039
That's not including short stories that went with the book.
01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:52.880
So altogether, I probably wrote over 250 stories.
01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:57.279
But actual full books was probably like 100 and something.
01:11:58.319 --> 01:12:11.920
And in 2021, the Missouri, Missouri passed the law where saying if you're under the age of 18 and you've been found guilty of a crime, uh, you can't be sentenced to a life sentence.
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:14.319
After 15 years, you'll be eligible for a parole.
01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:18.000
At this time, I'd already been locked up 20 years.
01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:20.560
I already been in penitentiary 20 years.
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:23.600
So as soon as that law got changed, it came up.
01:12:23.840 --> 01:12:28.479
With me having a successful, I made millions selling books in prison.
01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:34.239
Uh so with me already having the success of the books, y'all have to let me go.
01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:42.000
Like, like, so I basically made a complete 180 from being one of the most violent dudes on the streets, one of the most violent dudes in jail.
01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:53.359
So I basically like did my own therapy via writing the books, and that converted over to them changing the law, and I came home a year later.
01:12:53.600 --> 01:13:00.239
And since I've been home within the past three years, I came home January 19, 2023.
01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:05.039
So I came home, I went to Arkansas just to deinstitutionalize and get myself together.
01:13:05.119 --> 01:13:12.640
And between like September of 2023 and to now, I done filmed, I'm a film producer now.
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:24.079
Uh I probably done filmed eight or nine movies that I executive produced, and I've been on set for probably like 20, 25 movies that I'm just like a producer on.
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:41.840
And uh I done really kind of like brought the indie film game to Kansas City and it's been out here shooting movies, but for like uh years I was just traveling, going places, learning movie thing, going across the country, shooting movies.
01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:48.239
And then I brought all of that back to Kansas City, and that's what I've been doing since I came home in 2023.
01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:51.439
I mean, that that's absolutely mind-boggling.
01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:52.960
And I'm not saying it because you're here.
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:59.039
I'm just telling you the fact that I visited plenty of prisons in my experience as a prosecutor.
01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.439
Not somewhere I'd want to spend an hour.
01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:10.640
I had a case where I had to go visit somebody in prison, and um, they went through a it was a prosecutor, went through an intensive search, as you know.
01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:19.520
They put me in a cell as as opposed to a visiting area, and they closed the door and it freaked me out immediately, like I can't get out of here.
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:21.039
This door is locked.
01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:25.600
I never it never hit me as hard as when it went clang.
01:14:26.479 --> 01:14:31.119
And it and I went through I said, Hey man, the door's locked.
01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:32.560
You'll be fine.
01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:34.159
I wasn't fine.
01:14:34.720 --> 01:14:44.159
So I can't even begin to imagine in any way, and nobody can, unless you've been through this, and and the fact that you came out the other side.
01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:48.720
I mean I'm dumbfounded.
01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:55.600
I mean, I I wish I'd have known about you sooner because what a voice you have for rehabilitation, number one.
01:14:56.319 --> 01:14:57.680
For giving people hope.
01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:04.239
I mean, as you know in the community where you're from, one thing that's devoid for most people is hope.
01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:06.000
What do they have to look forward to?
01:15:06.399 --> 01:15:07.039
Where are you going?
01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:08.319
Who are your idols?
01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:11.359
You know, I mean, who who are your leaders?
01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:20.479
See, you represent uh honestly one of the more the most strongest leaders for people who think they want to go the other direction.
01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:22.399
That's a big thing, man.
01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:26.640
So I gotta ask you what made you turn?
01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:28.800
I mean, not turn, change or whatever.
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:30.960
Yeah, you can't, you know what?
01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:32.880
There's words you can't use anymore.
01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:36.159
I said, Wow, how many?
01:15:36.319 --> 01:15:39.840
So, how did you transition from a pro a rock star to a proscaner?
01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:43.520
No, no, no, you transition transform, maybe.
01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:51.199
Okay, so so what came about for you while you're where were you doing time here in Missouri?
01:15:51.359 --> 01:15:52.000
Yeah.
01:15:52.479 --> 01:15:54.720
What was it that hit you all of a sudden?
01:15:54.800 --> 01:15:55.760
I mean, what was it?
01:15:56.000 --> 01:16:00.079
I'll say the turner point was my uh one of my best friends getting killed.
01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:05.359
And it wasn't just I so basically every dude that I was around and with on the streets is dead.
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:06.399
They all got killed.
01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:08.960
Nobody that I was with is alive.
01:16:09.199 --> 01:16:10.399
Nobody that I was with.
01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:11.439
No, I'll take that back.
01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:15.520
My uncle, he died, he over he OD'd, but I don't think that's natural causes, though.
01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:17.359
Yeah, that ain't natural causes.
01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:22.159
Yeah, that ain't that ain't everybody that I was around I was with got killed.
01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:26.479
Uh and one of the last people to get killed was a good friend of mine.
01:16:26.800 --> 01:16:30.640
And when he got killed, he got shot 11 times in his back with an assault rifle.
01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:34.560
And I know how he thinks, I know how he moves.
01:16:34.720 --> 01:16:42.079
And then as soon as he got killed, just started coming out that it was somebody that we embraced, somebody that we was that we was cool with.
01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:47.600
So with that, it really had me like suspicious of everybody that I thought was cool.
01:16:47.840 --> 01:16:50.640
And then it had me second guess at everything.
01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:58.640
But then there were certain people that I knew was still like, these are still the homies, these are still people that look up to me.
01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:06.560
This is still, and I just knew like I can't continue like this because I love these dudes.
01:17:06.640 --> 01:17:09.199
I love these people, these people that I care about.
01:17:09.359 --> 01:17:14.319
So I have to figure out a way to open the door for them to be able to walk through.
01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:20.159
Because I opened the door with the banging, and now I have to figure out a way for another door for them to walk through.
01:17:20.319 --> 01:17:30.960
Because I feel like if you were gonna be, I feel like a great leader is only a good follower because you have to understand what the people that you're leading need and want and desire.
01:17:31.119 --> 01:17:34.319
And the people that I was trying to lead, they wanted a better life.
01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:37.840
So I said, okay, let me figure something out where everybody can eat.
01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:43.279
So I started writing the books, and with the books, when I kept the money, it led to a lot of other stuff.
01:17:43.439 --> 01:17:46.159
I'm literally was a club promoter in prison.
01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:50.079
I'm throwing parties on the street where women would be like, hey, go to this party.
01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:51.520
I'm not listening to you.
01:17:51.600 --> 01:17:52.239
How you know?
01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:53.279
Because it's my party.
01:17:53.439 --> 01:18:05.680
How you throwing a party you would just so but anyway, it it kind of opened doors that people that I cared about can go through because of the money that I made from the books, I was able to do certain stuff.
01:18:05.760 --> 01:18:09.680
And now, with me being a film producer, I'm an employer.
01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:12.319
I employ a lot of people in order to do it.
01:18:12.399 --> 01:18:19.439
But that was really kind of like the the shift when he got killed because it made me question the people that I thought was loyal.
01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:26.239
And it's like, damn, y'all would kill him, and he was the dude that's like anything happened.
01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:29.520
He's gonna be frontline, front center.
01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:30.560
He don't he don't care.
01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:31.760
He's like, ah, what happened?
01:18:31.840 --> 01:18:35.760
He's gonna, if y'all kill him, then it means I know y'all would kill me.
01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:36.960
I already told on me.
01:18:37.039 --> 01:18:37.600
You know what I mean?
01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:39.520
People done already told on me.
01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:45.439
So the next thing is for somebody that I love or somebody I'm close to to kill me, and I'm like, that's not about to ever be the case.
01:18:45.680 --> 01:18:53.199
That's interesting you say that, because I remember as a prosecutor, you know, there's a normal gang shooting where it's just rivals.
01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:56.079
It's not hatred necessarily, it's just rivals.
01:18:56.239 --> 01:19:03.920
And but there were some cases I had, like the royal family, where this leader, he'd kill anybody, I mean, he'd care less.
01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:07.279
I mean, and no and no compunction to shoot and kill anybody.
01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:09.920
I would wonder to myself, how can he have friends?
01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:18.720
I mean, if you're wanting to kill some person and their kid who you don't even know, what if you get on his wrong side, would he kill you too?
01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:21.920
I mean, did is that uh well, how did you feel?
01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:33.039
I mean, the because you you weren't at least as far as I can see, you were a member of a gang or gang related, and you were have rivals, right?
01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:34.880
And those rivals were the enemy.
01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:38.000
They're like soldiers, and you're the one side, and is that is that true?
01:19:38.239 --> 01:19:38.479
Yeah.
01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:39.039
Okay.
01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:51.279
So whereas if you were just out there killing for the sake of killing for money, contracts, things like that, you know, and you could care less who you killed than what was just my job.
01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:55.600
Yeah, wouldn't you find it hard to trust people you're working with?
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:57.760
Because what if it was their job to take you out?
01:19:57.920 --> 01:19:59.600
I mean, they wouldn't think twice, right?
01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:07.359
I mean, so it's crazy that you say that because I was raised around like real killers.
01:20:07.760 --> 01:20:09.520
Like real killers.
01:20:09.680 --> 01:20:10.399
You know what I'm saying?
01:20:10.479 --> 01:20:13.279
Like, I literally had people because I got shot.
01:20:13.439 --> 01:20:15.760
So y'all forgot that I got shot when I was young.
01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:16.960
I got shot four times.
01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:18.319
My whole left side got shot.
01:20:18.399 --> 01:20:24.399
I got shot in the knee, got shot in the back, got shot in my thigh, came out my my penis, got shot in the head.
01:20:24.479 --> 01:20:27.199
The bullet in my head is still here, the bullet in my back is still there.
01:20:27.279 --> 01:20:31.199
So it's a bullet in the back of my head, and it's a bullet like right by my spine.
01:20:31.279 --> 01:20:38.880
So I can actually feel the weather because the uh the cartilage, because you know, cartilage goes around any foreign object in your body.
01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:40.319
The cartilage just started to move.
01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:45.279
It'll rub against my back, like my head, I can know when it's rain, when it's about to be cold, all of that.
01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:53.119
But after I got shot, my uncle, who was a savage killer, literally trained me.
01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:58.479
Like, this is how you kill people, this is how you do this, this is how you get up on them, you gotta watch them.
01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:01.039
This is whoopy whoop, you do this, you do that.
01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:02.319
This is how you load this gun.
01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:10.159
This is how you do it, you get on them like this, literally like training me, like in the car, or get out on him, oh, get on him, whatever.
01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:10.960
You know what I'm saying?
01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:12.479
Showing me all of this.
01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:17.760
But the thing of it was I never respected hit men.
01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:22.239
I never respected people that took people's lives for money.
01:21:22.319 --> 01:21:23.520
I'm a man of honor.
01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:29.359
And it's just certain things you shouldn't do for money because this person hasn't done anything to you.
01:21:29.680 --> 01:21:29.760
Right.
01:21:30.079 --> 01:21:32.640
This person isn't trying to do anything to you.
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:36.159
You literally is about to take somebody's life for some money.
01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:43.039
And there's no telling how much money or what this person could have done to benefit other people.
01:21:43.279 --> 01:21:49.600
And you just took that away from them because somebody else was too much of a pussy to go do it themselves.
01:21:49.680 --> 01:21:50.960
So now they're paying you.
01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:51.279
Yeah.
01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:57.279
I never respected the dudes that put hits, I never respected the dudes that took hits because of this dude.
01:21:57.359 --> 01:22:02.800
And now if you in jail and somebody telling on you, then it's kind of like, ah, okay, you couldn't get to him.
01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:09.439
But if you on the street and you have access to this person, man, you know what the dude say on train today, you gotta put your own work in, homie.
01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:16.479
You need to go, if you hate him that much, then you go do as crazy as it may sound, but I just never respected that.
01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:19.680
That's just like that's just like some scavenger shit to me.
01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:29.760
Yeah, see, like what what really uh motivated at the time, I was 1980, 81 when I became the head of gang unit in Chicago.
01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:32.079
I got out to LA to visit with their unit.
01:22:32.159 --> 01:22:36.000
They had a unit called Crash, criminal resources and street hoodlums.
01:22:36.399 --> 01:22:38.159
They had fancy jackets.
01:22:38.399 --> 01:22:42.479
They wanted me to have, I didn't already need a jacket, man, but they wanted to give me one.
01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:44.560
You know, I went on a raids with them.
01:22:44.960 --> 01:22:46.640
Um, and they were cowboys.
01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:47.199
They were different.
01:22:47.439 --> 01:22:50.159
I mean, these guys were real different.
01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:53.359
I mean, they were it was aggressive.
01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:55.119
I mean, they were very aggressive.
01:22:55.279 --> 01:23:00.560
And they would ride in one-man cars, and I said to them, aren't you a little concerned?
01:23:00.640 --> 01:23:09.760
Well, that's why we have to be the way we are, you know, wear these black uniforms and because if they were alone and they encountered a situation, they had to like scare the hell out of people.
01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:16.479
So they said, which I thought, well, that's that's not gaining any good community relationships if you're doing that.
01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:26.000
But uh one thing um that that that our main goal was this to get the violent offenders off the street as a prosecutor.
01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:27.279
And the reason was this.
01:23:28.159 --> 01:23:33.920
So many cases we had in Chicago, they would shoot at a rival and miss and kill an innocent person.
01:23:34.319 --> 01:23:35.920
So, you know, that's not that's not right.
01:23:36.079 --> 01:23:43.039
I mean, you know and and and I don't know how it was where you were, but back in the day, these gangbangers were bad shots.
01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:45.039
I mean, they would just shoot wildly.
01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:54.159
I had a case where there was a gang fight taking place between two gangs, and a young girl was 15 and a a young man would just come off a leaf in the Marines.
01:23:54.319 --> 01:23:58.319
They got shot right in the head with high-powered rifles, and they had nothing to do with it.
01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:04.640
And that's what really gets the public really upset because the innocents getting killed.
01:24:05.279 --> 01:24:23.600
So our goal was to go after the violent offenders that are out shooting everybody, not just rivals, but anybody, the gang leaders who had some uh control over this, and people that are trying to intimidate young kids to being in gangs.
01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:30.239
And back then they would employ 15, 16-year-olds, it which when I started, they were still juveniles.
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:31.680
And then the law changed.
01:24:31.840 --> 01:24:38.800
In fact, I went and helped speak to them about moving them up to the criminal adult system because they knew what they were doing.
01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:44.800
So, how did you view prosecutors from your perspective?
01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:48.319
So I have a funny outlook.
01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:49.600
So it's like this.
01:24:50.319 --> 01:24:52.079
I respect prosecutors.
01:24:52.159 --> 01:24:55.279
I've never said fuck the police in my life.
01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:58.239
Uh okay, I have said fuck the police.
01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:00.479
But I never, but I never like it.
01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:04.079
That's never been like my feelings towards the police.
01:25:04.239 --> 01:25:05.359
You know, it's police might be.
01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:06.800
I was like, man, fuck the police, man.
01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:12.640
God, yeah, they get, but I done said fuck my mom, I done said fuck homes, I done said fuck a lot of people in the moment.
01:25:13.039 --> 01:25:14.720
But I never felt like fuck the police.
01:25:14.800 --> 01:25:17.359
I never had issues with judges or any of that.
01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:27.680
Even when I got found guilty and they gave me all that time, I wasn't, I wasn't like, oh, fuck my judge, fuck my prosecutor.
01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:33.760
Nah, like police, prosecutor, judge, they are necessary in society.
01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:35.279
You have to have that.
01:25:35.520 --> 01:25:46.880
And it does something to me when I like see people be so happy, especially black people, be so happy when they see something happen to a police officer.
01:25:47.359 --> 01:25:54.000
Because as soon as your daughter get kidnapped and raped, you need the police now.
01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:55.840
Now you need the prosecutor.
01:25:56.000 --> 01:25:58.880
Now it's, oh, why y'all ain't getting justice for such and such?
01:25:59.039 --> 01:26:00.159
Justice, no, hold up.
01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:01.680
No, you can't have it both ways.
01:26:01.760 --> 01:26:05.520
You can't say fuck 12, fuck the law, fuck the police, fuck this, fuck that.
01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:07.760
But then when this happened, oh, it's justice.
01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:14.159
In order to get justice, you need police, you need prosecutors, you need judges, you need a justice system, you need a judicial system.
01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:16.159
So I always understood that.
01:26:16.319 --> 01:26:20.560
I just always felt like I've never in my life down 911.
01:26:20.640 --> 01:26:22.960
Even when I got shot, they just took me to the hospital.
01:26:23.119 --> 01:26:29.439
Because I always felt like by me living outside the perimeters of the law, that the police aren't for me.
01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:30.720
I don't pay taxes.
01:26:31.039 --> 01:26:34.640
Y'all are for the people that pay taxes, y'all are for the people that vote.
01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:36.079
That's y'all group.
01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:38.000
I'm outside of that.
01:26:38.159 --> 01:26:39.520
And I understood that.
01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:48.960
But I never had an issue with the police because I understood people that pay taxes, get up, go to work, try to take care of their kids.
01:26:49.199 --> 01:26:52.960
They need somebody to protect them from motherfuckers like me.
01:26:53.119 --> 01:26:59.039
Not saying motherfuckers like me personally, but people that live outside of the perimeters of the law.
01:26:59.920 --> 01:27:05.680
Because you're gonna have some people that live outside the law that have no morals, and they're gonna do anything.
01:27:05.920 --> 01:27:12.560
And then you let then you have a very small group of people that's like, yeah, I know what I am, but they don't have anything to do with me.
01:27:12.640 --> 01:27:14.720
So they leave the innocence innocent.
01:27:14.800 --> 01:27:16.560
But you most definitely need the police.
01:27:16.720 --> 01:27:19.359
I've never had a problem with prosecutors, judges, none of that.
01:27:19.439 --> 01:27:21.600
There's certain motherfuckers that need to be in jail.
01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:23.680
There's people I've been around in prison.
01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:26.079
I'm like, well, I hope they don't ever let your ass out.
01:27:26.640 --> 01:27:32.720
You need to stay in here because there's certain people that need to be off the streets, period.
01:27:33.199 --> 01:27:37.039
So I've never had an issue with them.
01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:42.800
Well, I'll tell you an interesting case just about that that what you're speaking to.
01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:44.319
I was a young prosecutor.
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:46.960
I tried a case, it was an armed robbery of two gay guys.
01:27:47.119 --> 01:27:48.720
They didn't they didn't call them gay at that time.
01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:50.880
I don't know what they called them, but they were dancers.
01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:51.199
Yeah.
01:27:51.520 --> 01:27:56.319
And they got stuck up by two guys, and the one guy was a bad guy, he had a bad record.
01:27:56.960 --> 01:27:59.279
Eventually the police identified who they were.
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:01.039
Case went to trial.
01:28:01.600 --> 01:28:04.000
Well, you've got uh two victims, right?
01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:09.119
One victim breaks up and doesn't has nothing to do with the other, their boyfriends at the time.
01:28:09.279 --> 01:28:10.239
He won't testify.
01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:11.439
He's out in LA.
01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:17.840
So we got to put a case on two armed robbers, and the one victim is extremely effeminate.
01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:22.560
I put him on the witness stand, the jury laughed at him back then.
01:28:22.720 --> 01:28:24.880
I mean, I laughed at him, and he was telling the truth.
01:28:25.119 --> 01:28:29.119
I had him step from the jury box, they say, look around the courtroom, see if you see the people.
01:28:29.439 --> 01:28:31.439
And he go, Oh, he's right there and right there.
01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:34.640
And the jury laughed, okay, which I thought was disgusting, you know.
01:28:35.600 --> 01:28:37.760
So uh we finished the case.
01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:40.800
The jury was off for 25 hours.
01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:43.439
They were really over days.
01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:46.079
And they found these guys not guilty, okay?
01:28:46.880 --> 01:28:47.680
And they hugged.
01:28:48.159 --> 01:28:50.079
Some of the jurors hugged the defendants.
01:28:50.640 --> 01:29:02.399
Well, during the time that jury was deliberating, his lawyer came up to my partner and I, and he said the following he said, I sure hope you get this these guys, because this blue one guy named Blue, he's gonna kill somebody for sure.
01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:04.720
Not guilty, right?
01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:10.800
Eight months later, he killed a 65-year-old guy who's selling candy out of his house to kids in the neighborhood.
01:29:10.880 --> 01:29:11.119
Uh-huh.
01:29:11.279 --> 01:29:12.560
Shoots him violently.
01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:14.479
I prosecuted that case too.
01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:14.800
Uh-huh.
01:29:15.039 --> 01:29:18.399
So as a prosecutor, there's two most horrible things.
01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:20.640
Number one, prosecuting an innocent man.
01:29:20.720 --> 01:29:24.319
That is without question the worst thing you could ever do.
01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:26.640
Number two, losing a case.
01:29:26.960 --> 01:29:32.479
And as a result, the guy you the guy come not guilty, not that it's your fault, they say goes out and kills somebody.
01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:34.880
So I've experienced the second one.
01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:35.359
Okay.
01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:39.279
And question I had for you.
01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:46.479
When you were encountering people in prison, did you ever encounter anybody who thought they got framed by the police or the prosecution?
01:29:47.520 --> 01:29:48.720
They thought they got framed?
01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:49.520
Yeah, framed.
01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:55.119
Like they're putting it on him and he didn't do it, and they're intentionally putting it on him or whoever.
01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:59.520
As opposed to as opposed to somebody that was innocent.
01:29:59.600 --> 01:30:01.199
And you're saying the police actually went up to the city.
01:30:02.720 --> 01:30:10.479
A person who thought who you who conveyed their innocence, but the state put it on him for whatever reason.
01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:13.359
I'm saying I probably was, but I wouldn't have given a fuck.
01:30:13.520 --> 01:30:16.880
If they would have came to me, I'm like, I don't give a fuck about your case, man.
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:17.520
I don't care.
01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:19.920
I was one of I was one, yeah.
01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:25.600
If you wasn't a young gang banger, I didn't give a fuck about nothing you was talking about in jail, or older gangbanger.
01:30:25.840 --> 01:30:26.159
Okay.
01:30:26.399 --> 01:30:31.279
So your feeling was they're there for a reason, and whatever it is, it is.
01:30:31.439 --> 01:30:37.680
And you're not gonna dwell on their their accusations of being framed or they're innocent.
01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.159
Nah, I just didn't give a fuck about nobody else's case.
01:30:40.399 --> 01:30:40.560
Okay.
01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:45.520
No, so it's so a person could come to me like, man, the police frame me, they set me up, they did this.
01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:46.880
I don't give a fuck.
01:30:47.119 --> 01:30:51.760
I was I was a very yeah, I was a very aggressive dude.
01:30:51.920 --> 01:30:55.199
Like, so a dude like that probably wouldn't even want to talk to me.
01:30:55.439 --> 01:30:57.520
When did you stop being aggressive?
01:30:57.840 --> 01:30:58.800
I never did.
01:30:59.039 --> 01:31:03.199
I just I just converted my aggression to the books.
01:31:03.520 --> 01:31:09.359
Oh if you really just trip over it, like I'm I got I'm very big on self-analysis.
01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:11.199
So I look at myself.
01:31:11.359 --> 01:31:16.640
So I just converted my aggression from the gangbanging and the violence over to the books.
01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:24.000
To write over a hundred books, over 250 something stories in less than 10 years, that's an aggressive approach to writing.
01:31:24.239 --> 01:31:25.840
That's what shows passion, too.
01:31:25.920 --> 01:31:27.680
Yeah, a lot of passion.
01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:32.000
So he he can answer the question you have for him.
01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:37.680
What as far as like being uh wrongfully committed or uh frying.
01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:47.359
We was around somebody that was fine, wrongfully basically my silhouette, no audience.
01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:49.199
Um you can talk about it.
01:31:52.079 --> 01:32:08.319
We're gonna really my question is this as a pro former prosecutor, um have you ever been involved or dealt with somebody who was basically innocent but still was arrested, charged, and put on trial, and maybe even convicted?
01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:12.960
Do you do you do you want to go from the standpoint of uh wrongfully convicted?
01:32:13.119 --> 01:32:13.439
Yes.
01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:15.600
Okay, so yes, I'll I went to trial.
01:32:15.680 --> 01:32:19.119
So Akasha, this is my brother here.
01:32:19.359 --> 01:32:22.960
So I went to trial.
01:32:23.279 --> 01:32:24.640
Okay, but what was the charge?
01:32:24.960 --> 01:32:27.760
So my charge was first degree robbery or criminal action.
01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:28.159
Okay.
01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:45.520
So now I'm not gonna get fully into details, but one thing is that the witnesses in the case said we didn't see a face, we knew silhouettes and body shapes and sizes.
01:32:46.960 --> 01:33:02.399
So the whole thing of the case is that because they had a personal relationship with the co-defendants in my case, they said if they did it and we know that they did it because they're always together, he did it too.
01:33:03.359 --> 01:33:04.720
They brought a case like that?
01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:06.159
They brought a case like that.
01:33:06.560 --> 01:33:07.760
And you were to go to trial with it?
01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:10.239
I went to trial with it and I lost their trial.
01:33:10.560 --> 01:33:10.880
No.
01:33:12.319 --> 01:33:13.359
There was no actual ID.
01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:14.000
It was a sort of thing.
01:33:14.159 --> 01:33:15.520
There was no actual ID.
01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:17.760
I would show you my whole transcripts.
01:33:17.920 --> 01:33:20.479
They said that they never seen the face.
01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:24.000
They knew me because of body size, shape, and silhouette.
01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:26.960
Well, first of all, I can just say this.
01:33:27.119 --> 01:33:36.399
As a prosecutor, I wouldn't have put the case on because I would have thought I was gonna lose, number one, because how do you win a case when the eyeballs are given that kind of description?
01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:38.319
The defense attorney would tear them up.
01:33:38.479 --> 01:33:40.960
I mean, that that's that's how we approached it.
01:33:41.199 --> 01:33:46.479
Because if I was a convinced beyond any doubt in the world, I'm not gonna go after somebody.
01:33:46.720 --> 01:33:50.800
After somebody who says, oh, it looked like a silhouette.
01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:52.159
Really?
01:33:52.319 --> 01:33:53.520
And yet they did that?
01:33:53.760 --> 01:33:59.359
They did that and prosecuted me and and charged me, did you know, did it and you got a charge for?
01:33:59.600 --> 01:34:00.880
Did you give a statement?
01:34:01.439 --> 01:34:02.640
No, I didn't get no statement.
01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:05.600
Did they give did they need them to talk on you?
01:34:06.079 --> 01:34:13.760
So what they did was they they found out, so throughout the case, they found out that we knew these people, and these people knew us.
01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:14.560
The victims?
01:34:14.800 --> 01:34:16.960
The victims, so forth.
01:34:17.279 --> 01:34:29.439
So because I was connected with the family of the victims, they said, well, if these people did it, and we know these they did it, then he did it too.
01:34:32.880 --> 01:34:35.680
That's a robbery was it a robbery?
01:34:35.920 --> 01:34:36.720
It was a robbery.
01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:37.199
Armed?
01:34:37.760 --> 01:34:38.880
Armed robbery.
01:34:39.439 --> 01:34:40.800
What time of the day?
01:34:41.119 --> 01:34:46.239
This was maybe they say it happened three, four, maybe in the morning.
01:34:47.199 --> 01:34:48.560
Did you have an alibi?
01:34:48.880 --> 01:34:50.159
Yeah, I had an alibi.
01:34:50.479 --> 01:34:51.279
Where were you?
01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:53.439
At home, in the bed, sleep.
01:34:53.840 --> 01:34:54.560
With anybody?
01:34:54.720 --> 01:34:55.119
Yes.
01:34:55.359 --> 01:34:56.720
Had an alibi, everything.
01:34:56.800 --> 01:34:58.640
I'll show you my whole trial transcript.
01:34:58.720 --> 01:34:59.680
You'll laugh at it.
01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:01.920
You will say, How did he even get convicted?
01:35:02.079 --> 01:35:04.800
Had a top lawyer,$30,000 John Anthony Turner.
01:35:05.119 --> 01:35:05.840
This is what I'm saying.
01:35:05.920 --> 01:35:10.319
I mean, that's the first thing, because uh, I don't know what they call, what's the what's the prosecutor called here?
01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:12.000
County attorney, DA?
01:35:12.640 --> 01:35:14.239
Uh assistant district attorney, okay.
01:35:14.319 --> 01:35:14.640
ADA.
01:35:15.039 --> 01:35:15.760
ADA or something.
01:35:15.840 --> 01:35:16.000
Yeah.
01:35:16.560 --> 01:35:25.039
Okay, so normally, like where I'm from, the state's attorney, somebody from their office, the DA, it determines whether you should be charged with a felony.
01:35:25.199 --> 01:35:27.359
I don't even know how they got through that phase.
01:35:27.600 --> 01:35:29.279
Why would they think you should be charged?
01:35:29.439 --> 01:35:31.119
Because somebody said you hang with them?
01:35:31.279 --> 01:35:32.319
So this is the thing.
01:35:32.479 --> 01:35:38.640
They said more so it was because the the history of knowing the victims.
01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:39.439
So what?
01:35:39.680 --> 01:35:49.600
So that's where the conviction came from because oh, they know him, that they ride with him every day, or they know him, that they would know his body size, his shape, and his silhouette, or whatever they say.
01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:54.319
Um did the okay, how many other offenders were there?
01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:55.600
Besides you?
01:35:56.079 --> 01:35:56.399
Two other.
01:35:56.800 --> 01:35:57.680
There were three all together.
01:35:58.720 --> 01:36:00.159
Did they make statements?
01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:00.800
No.
01:36:01.119 --> 01:36:02.159
Nobody made a statement.
01:36:02.239 --> 01:36:03.520
So nobody pointed a finger at each other.
01:36:03.760 --> 01:36:05.439
Nobody pointed a finger at each other, nobody said.
01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:06.880
And they got convicted too?
01:36:07.119 --> 01:36:08.000
They got convicted too.
01:36:08.159 --> 01:36:08.800
From Silicon Valley.
01:36:10.800 --> 01:36:11.600
I went to trial.
01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:15.359
So after I went to trial, some other stuff happened.
01:36:15.439 --> 01:36:17.439
But we ain't, that's nothing to get into.
01:36:17.680 --> 01:36:20.800
You know, it was, it was, it's, it is what it is.
01:36:21.039 --> 01:36:22.880
What'd you want what'd you end up getting for that?
01:36:23.039 --> 01:36:24.399
I ended up getting 15.
01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:24.960
No.
01:36:25.520 --> 01:36:26.159
Yeah.
01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:28.239
For that?
01:36:28.399 --> 01:36:28.720
Yep.
01:36:28.880 --> 01:36:30.560
How many offenses before that had you had?
01:36:30.640 --> 01:36:31.119
A few?
01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:32.880
Uh one other offense.
01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:34.880
Anything serious before?
01:36:35.439 --> 01:36:36.319
Slightly.
01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:36.960
Before.
01:36:37.199 --> 01:36:39.119
Well, see, it was so it was slightly so.
01:36:39.359 --> 01:36:40.479
You look too young to have done anything.
01:36:40.800 --> 01:36:47.439
So what happened was, so what happened was I uh I had brought a weapon to school.
01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:47.920
Okay.
01:36:48.159 --> 01:36:48.720
Earlier on.
01:36:48.880 --> 01:36:49.520
You know what I mean?
01:36:49.680 --> 01:36:52.640
So this was probably a few years earlier, we brought a weapon to school.
01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:52.960
Sure.
01:36:53.199 --> 01:36:54.159
Had the same lawyer.
01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:56.159
Same lawyer represented me on that.
01:36:56.720 --> 01:36:58.880
I mean, I did well on that case.
01:36:58.960 --> 01:37:02.239
You know, they was talking about at that time it was so much going on.
01:37:02.319 --> 01:37:05.920
They had the Columbine, you know, they had the Columbine shooting the guns and stuff in school.
01:37:06.000 --> 01:37:07.119
So it was a big deal.
01:37:07.279 --> 01:37:12.479
So when that happened, I they actually I was on CNN and Nancy Grace, she spoke on it, which no.
01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.319
Yeah, she spoke on the situation.
01:37:14.399 --> 01:37:18.319
This was so it was a big deal.
01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:20.000
He did good on that case.
01:37:20.159 --> 01:37:20.880
You know what I mean?
01:37:21.039 --> 01:37:27.600
I there, I mean, for you for the offense, I was 17 going on 18.
01:37:27.680 --> 01:37:27.840
Okay.
01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:32.159
So, but by the time I took my time, or well, I got what I got for it, I was 18.
01:37:32.239 --> 01:37:33.199
So, but he did good.
01:37:33.279 --> 01:37:34.640
I didn't have to do no jail time.
01:37:34.720 --> 01:37:41.279
I ended up doing probation, SIS, and you know, but so you had an offense for something involving a firearm.
01:37:41.600 --> 01:37:41.920
Right.
01:37:42.079 --> 01:37:42.399
Okay.
01:37:42.800 --> 01:37:45.199
Did you testify at the second trial, at the trial?
01:37:45.680 --> 01:37:46.000
No.
01:37:46.720 --> 01:37:48.239
Who testified for you?
01:37:48.479 --> 01:37:48.880
Nobody.
01:37:49.039 --> 01:37:50.079
No alibi witness.
01:37:50.319 --> 01:37:56.800
You told me at that time he was like, man, listen, don't get on the stand, you know, your history, your background, they're gonna bring this up.
01:37:57.119 --> 01:38:00.239
And then, okay, because I had been shot, I had been gang activity.
01:38:00.319 --> 01:38:00.880
It's a lot of stuff.
01:38:00.960 --> 01:38:02.960
It's a whole thing.
01:38:03.840 --> 01:38:09.039
But why did they call a witness that would say you weren't there?
01:38:10.720 --> 01:38:12.479
He said he need her.
01:38:12.640 --> 01:38:14.560
It wouldn't help the case or something.
01:38:14.640 --> 01:38:16.399
It was it was a lot going on.
01:38:16.800 --> 01:38:18.319
So I don't know about that, man.
01:38:18.640 --> 01:38:22.880
But it was a lack of knowledge too, you know, to the judicial system and how trials go and how that works.
01:38:23.279 --> 01:38:29.520
At that time, you know, I'm pretty used to anything of the judicial system or how it works.
01:38:29.600 --> 01:38:32.720
So it was like So a surprise, so so okay.
01:38:33.920 --> 01:38:36.000
So you went to trial by yourself.
01:38:36.239 --> 01:38:36.800
Right.
01:38:38.079 --> 01:38:41.279
And the only evidence was a silhouette.
01:38:42.880 --> 01:38:46.880
No physical evidence, no nothing.
01:38:47.279 --> 01:38:50.479
There just there were against mine.
01:38:50.720 --> 01:38:52.640
But you're but you're uh against your silhouette.
01:38:53.279 --> 01:38:54.159
That's it.
01:38:54.399 --> 01:39:01.840
Okay, so so how how long after from the rest of the trial, how long did they take to get to trial?
01:39:01.920 --> 01:39:04.720
From the time you got arrested for it to the trial, how long was that?
01:39:04.880 --> 01:39:06.319
Uh about a year.
01:39:07.199 --> 01:39:07.520
Man.
01:39:08.079 --> 01:39:10.640
And they ever did they ever offer you any kind of a plea deal?
01:39:10.800 --> 01:39:11.920
Oh, they offered a plea.
01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:14.880
Yeah, they first the first offer they came with 30 years.
01:39:15.119 --> 01:39:15.840
30 years?
01:39:16.159 --> 01:39:17.039
30 years.
01:39:17.600 --> 01:39:18.560
He called my father.
01:39:18.880 --> 01:39:20.319
These people out here ain't playing, are they?
01:39:20.800 --> 01:39:22.000
30 years from that first time.
01:39:22.319 --> 01:39:24.079
So yeah, so I ended up bonding out.
01:39:24.159 --> 01:39:25.600
So I was out, I was fighting again.
01:39:25.920 --> 01:39:27.039
Yeah, I was out on bond.
01:39:27.119 --> 01:39:28.399
So when he called, the first time.
01:39:29.039 --> 01:39:29.920
What was your bond, by the way?
01:39:30.079 --> 01:39:31.520
My bond was 75,000.
01:39:31.680 --> 01:39:33.199
So 7,500 awatt?
01:39:33.520 --> 01:39:34.079
Uh, yeah.
01:39:34.560 --> 01:39:34.720
Okay.
01:39:35.039 --> 01:39:36.720
So 7,500 a walk.
01:39:36.880 --> 01:39:43.439
And uh the first offer he called with probably two months after my bond was like, he was like, Yeah, I just talked to the prosecutor.
01:39:43.600 --> 01:39:45.760
Uh the first offer is 30 years.
01:39:47.760 --> 01:39:48.079
Yeah.
01:39:48.399 --> 01:39:49.840
I can't even take my own.
01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:56.880
See, it's hard to believe how hot they were so hot to try it over a silhouette that they can't even the identification.
01:39:57.359 --> 01:39:58.960
What do they mean by a silhouette?
01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:04.560
What was the defining So they said we came in with do-rag mask on.
01:40:04.880 --> 01:40:09.920
So anybody know that if you have a do-rag mask, remember the black do rag mask you put around your head?
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:16.079
If you put it over your face, I don't care if it's light outside, you're still not going to be able to see any facial features.
01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:16.640
Right.
01:40:16.800 --> 01:40:22.399
So they convicted me off a silhouette saying that the black mask could show the shape of my face.
01:40:26.399 --> 01:40:27.840
And you didn't do it.
01:40:35.600 --> 01:40:37.520
I'm just saying I went to trial.
01:40:37.760 --> 01:40:38.960
Okay, that's whatever.
01:40:39.199 --> 01:40:43.199
But I'm just saying it's hard to believe that you got convicted of that.
01:40:43.359 --> 01:40:44.000
Yeah, definitely.
01:40:44.239 --> 01:40:45.600
That wouldn't have happened in Chicago.
01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:46.800
Now you look it up.
01:40:47.039 --> 01:40:50.000
We would have put that thing out for next to nothing just to get rid of the case.
01:40:50.159 --> 01:40:52.560
Because that would, I don't want to lose a case like that.
01:40:52.800 --> 01:41:04.239
So to his question, you came across, he you, he, he's definitely came across somebody with that type of uh case or that type of, you know, so and and it's it's plenty more than that.
01:41:04.399 --> 01:41:04.720
Really?
01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:06.319
It's plenty more people that I know about.
01:41:06.800 --> 01:41:09.920
He was saying like something that the police went out their way to frame somebody.
01:41:10.079 --> 01:41:11.119
Well, yeah, they made it up.
01:41:11.520 --> 01:41:14.560
Well, yeah, I mean, uh you see, here's the thing.
01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:18.720
I don't know whether it happens a lot, and that's why you see it on TV, or it doesn't happen very often.
01:41:18.880 --> 01:41:25.039
That's why you see it on TV because they're highlighting a case that doesn't happen that often, or maybe it happens all the time.
01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:26.000
See, I don't know.
01:41:26.319 --> 01:41:30.319
Like when you was talking about crash, they do that.
01:41:30.880 --> 01:41:32.720
They do that all the time.
01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:38.960
Like crash used to literally pull up on us and bust us down right on Avalon.
01:41:39.039 --> 01:41:39.199
Yeah.
01:41:39.359 --> 01:41:40.880
Or on or on the feed.
01:41:41.039 --> 01:41:45.840
Well, basically, what they'll do, they'll literally just strip you out on the street right there.
01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:46.720
I saw it happen.
01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:52.880
Yeah, they'll literally, everybody strip.
01:41:53.359 --> 01:41:56.239
Take off everything, and then they're gonna take pictures of you to see your gang tattooing.
01:41:56.479 --> 01:41:58.640
They see your gang tattoos and shit.
01:41:59.039 --> 01:42:00.399
I saw it happen.
01:42:00.560 --> 01:42:02.800
I mean, I I I was with the ride-along, and they did.
01:42:02.960 --> 01:42:03.600
I was shocked.
01:42:03.680 --> 01:42:07.600
I'm like, I said, Do you guys can get away with this?
01:42:10.560 --> 01:42:13.359
There were cowboys out there in LA when they saw it was out there.
01:42:13.600 --> 01:42:15.039
And they'll frame you.
01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:21.760
And they used to do the thing where they'll like take this dude from this neighborhood and take him over to that neighborhood.
01:42:21.920 --> 01:42:22.720
Yeah, I heard that.
01:42:22.880 --> 01:42:28.720
And then when you'll go to LA County, they'll take you from one pot and put you in another pod.
01:42:28.960 --> 01:42:30.640
Pod with the rival gang members.
01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:32.079
Because they knew all the policies.
01:42:32.399 --> 01:42:34.239
That would go that goes on other places too.
01:42:34.399 --> 01:42:34.720
Yeah.
01:42:34.880 --> 01:42:40.239
I mean, just I just I was never I just never seen any police officers more aggressive than the crash unit.
01:42:40.399 --> 01:42:40.560
No.
01:42:40.960 --> 01:42:42.239
I remember I mentioned it too.
01:42:42.319 --> 01:42:43.359
I saw it, man.
01:42:43.760 --> 01:42:45.920
They had their jackets, they were all proud of that.
01:42:46.159 --> 01:42:47.359
Yeah, they had tanks.
01:42:47.520 --> 01:42:48.079
They had everything.
01:42:48.399 --> 01:42:52.000
They had the uh because they'll they'll they'll come to your house with tanks.
01:42:52.159 --> 01:42:52.399
Yep.
01:42:52.560 --> 01:42:54.640
Because I I want to say, uh, what's his name?
01:42:54.800 --> 01:42:56.000
The Gates dude.
01:42:56.159 --> 01:42:58.560
Uh his last name was Gates.
01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:00.399
He was the uh police chief.
01:43:00.479 --> 01:43:02.399
Yeah, he was the police chief for a long time.
01:43:02.640 --> 01:43:03.439
I didn't met him.
01:43:03.600 --> 01:43:08.640
He went and started buying military equipment for the LAPD.
01:43:08.800 --> 01:43:09.199
Yep.
01:43:09.359 --> 01:43:12.640
When they used to kick in people's houses, they used to use you'll see it.
01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:17.359
You'll just see tanks coming down the street like it's a rod just to serve a warrant.
01:43:17.520 --> 01:43:18.880
That was a Marine car out there.
01:43:19.279 --> 01:43:20.640
That's who they recruited from, man.
01:43:20.720 --> 01:43:22.560
After Vietnam, everybody came out of the war.
01:43:22.640 --> 01:43:24.399
They wanted them an LAPD.
01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:30.239
Every Marine, I mean, I think everybody I ever met was a poor Marine, and they were hardcore dudes.
01:43:30.479 --> 01:43:32.880
They were like, they had to be.
01:43:33.279 --> 01:43:34.319
We went on a raid.
01:43:34.479 --> 01:43:39.439
It used to be when you raided somebody's house, you had to wait till the sun was up before you could crash in, you know?
01:43:40.399 --> 01:43:49.760
So I'm in the car with there was like six cars, and they got one guy on a payphone waiting for somebody to call from the Griffith Observatory saying, okay, the sun just came up.
01:43:49.840 --> 01:43:51.760
And they got the battering ram.
01:43:52.319 --> 01:43:53.600
So it was Hispanic.
01:43:53.680 --> 01:43:54.800
So I'm in the car.
01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:56.880
Cap puts the gun back to me.
01:43:56.960 --> 01:43:57.600
I go, What's this for?
01:43:57.920 --> 01:43:58.319
Just a case.
01:43:58.479 --> 01:44:00.479
I go, these guys are really cowboys.
01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:02.880
They're handing a prosecutor a pistol out here in the street.
01:44:03.039 --> 01:44:04.319
They don't know me that well.
01:44:04.479 --> 01:44:06.479
So I get out of the car, I stay there.
01:44:07.039 --> 01:44:08.319
They bust down the door.
01:44:08.399 --> 01:44:09.439
Now I can see inside.
01:44:09.520 --> 01:44:10.800
This is the whole family.
01:44:10.960 --> 01:44:12.640
They got everybody on the floor, man.
01:44:12.880 --> 01:44:15.359
Little kids, I mean, they're screaming.
01:44:15.439 --> 01:44:16.560
And guess what happens?
01:44:16.720 --> 01:44:24.319
The guy they're looking for comes jumping through the screen and the window on the front, and there's me with a gun in my hand.
01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:27.359
And I'm like, I ain't shooting this guy.
01:44:27.520 --> 01:44:28.960
I don't care what happens, man.
01:44:29.600 --> 01:44:30.880
My hands like this.
01:44:31.680 --> 01:44:33.600
Because I'm not shooting some guy.
01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:35.600
And they finally tackled him.
01:44:35.760 --> 01:44:38.479
But I know how cowboy they were because I saw it happen.
01:44:38.560 --> 01:44:40.239
I mean, I was like, ooh, man.
01:44:40.399 --> 01:44:41.359
I went back to Chicago.
01:44:41.439 --> 01:44:42.000
I said, I don't know.
01:44:42.079 --> 01:44:44.000
We can do it, we ain't gonna do it like this.
01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:47.439
So my extent to dealing with cries was just getting stripped.
01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:48.880
We used to call it stripped down.
01:44:48.960 --> 01:44:49.119
Yep.
01:44:49.279 --> 01:44:51.600
They'll just come and get you, strip you down right there.
01:44:51.680 --> 01:44:56.159
But I done heard war stories of yeah, yeah, crash.
01:44:56.399 --> 01:44:59.520
Why do you think those NWA and then what do you think them songs came from?
01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:00.319
That shit was really good.
01:45:00.560 --> 01:45:01.279
I know it was going down.
01:45:01.840 --> 01:45:02.960
I may be white, but I saw it.
01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:04.079
I saw it crash was a whole.
01:45:04.319 --> 01:45:05.920
And I knew this ain't cool out here.
01:45:06.079 --> 01:45:07.119
These people are crazy.
01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:09.760
Yeah, crashes, them crash officers is different.
01:45:10.640 --> 01:45:11.520
Can I tell one funny story?
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:12.479
You'll get a kick out of it.
01:45:12.560 --> 01:45:20.399
So the first day I show up at the crash unit in LA, and I'm talking to this guy met that was a lead prosecutor of that gang crime unit.
01:45:20.479 --> 01:45:23.439
Because I'm there to like see how they do it, you know.
01:45:23.760 --> 01:45:25.520
So he says, you know, Greg, I'm really busy.
01:45:25.600 --> 01:45:28.560
I'm putting together a warrant with these guys, and they got their jackets on.
01:45:28.720 --> 01:45:31.680
And he says, I but I'll get you somebody to show you around, right?
01:45:31.840 --> 01:45:35.920
So this little short Asian guy comes walking by, he's one of their prosecutors.
01:45:36.000 --> 01:45:37.279
He goes, Hey, Lance.
01:45:37.680 --> 01:45:39.760
I go, he goes, Could you show Greg around?
01:45:39.840 --> 01:45:41.600
So I'm going around the guy, and he's laughing.
01:45:41.920 --> 01:45:43.439
He's the funniest guy I ever met.
01:45:43.680 --> 01:45:47.119
So we we get toward the end, and I go, I gotta ask you a question.
01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:50.159
How'd you get a name like Lance?
01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:51.840
He was a Japanese guy.
01:45:52.000 --> 01:45:59.279
He goes, Well, my parents were in a war, and then they were in a term in camp, you know, and the sergeant was real good to us, and we got out.
01:45:59.359 --> 01:46:00.640
His name was Lance.
01:46:00.720 --> 01:46:03.199
So when I was born, right after the war, they named me Lance.
01:46:03.279 --> 01:46:06.640
His name was Lance Edel, the judge of the OJ Simpson case.
01:46:07.439 --> 01:46:08.720
That's who that Lance was.
01:46:08.800 --> 01:46:12.640
He probably he was the judge, and years later, we became the OJ Simpson judge.
01:46:13.199 --> 01:46:15.439
He was the funniest dude I've ever met, though.
01:46:15.520 --> 01:46:16.800
He was so funny.
01:46:17.039 --> 01:46:20.720
So most people probably wonder why is the guy Japanese named Lance Edel?
01:46:21.039 --> 01:46:21.600
Lance.
01:46:22.000 --> 01:46:22.800
That's why.
01:46:23.840 --> 01:46:25.199
That's the story there.
01:46:25.600 --> 01:46:27.680
So how long was you a prosecutor in Chicago?
01:46:27.840 --> 01:46:29.119
Uh almost 10 years.
01:46:29.359 --> 01:46:30.079
From when?
01:46:30.479 --> 01:46:33.439
From 1975 to 1985.
01:46:33.680 --> 01:46:39.119
So you was there doing all the Caprini Grings and during all of that time.
01:46:39.439 --> 01:46:44.800
Yeah, Jeff Larry Floyd, Larry Hoover, Willie uh Jeff Ford.
01:46:45.359 --> 01:46:46.479
Jeff was cool.
01:46:46.800 --> 01:46:47.359
Was you there?
01:46:47.439 --> 01:46:49.520
Was you around when the Forecon uh hustlers?
01:46:49.760 --> 01:46:51.920
I heard you talk about the uh dude with the Rocket.
01:46:52.560 --> 01:46:53.680
Was you there when the Foreconner?
01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:55.119
Yeah, I forget his name.
01:46:55.279 --> 01:46:57.119
I think his name was Angelo something.
01:46:57.359 --> 01:46:57.600
Yeah.
01:46:57.760 --> 01:47:01.840
Well, the the the Vice Lords were at the time were run by the guy named Willie Lloyd.
01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:02.159
Yeah.
01:47:02.399 --> 01:47:03.920
And they were opposite of the gang.
01:47:04.079 --> 01:47:06.720
They were like the Crips and Bloods, but they didn't call them Crips and Bloods.
01:47:06.800 --> 01:47:08.479
They were the opposite, you know.
01:47:08.720 --> 01:47:16.239
Um But yeah, I mean the then the Black Gangster Disciples and the Black Disciples were rivals and the El Rukins.
01:47:16.720 --> 01:47:18.640
And I spent time at Old Block.
01:47:18.880 --> 01:47:20.079
You probably heard of that.
01:47:20.399 --> 01:47:22.159
Uh Parkway Gardens.
01:47:22.319 --> 01:47:22.479
Yeah.
01:47:22.800 --> 01:47:22.960
Yeah.
01:47:23.600 --> 01:47:31.760
I mean, I mean, those housing units were my daughter got a visit to Robert Taylor homes back about 92-93.
01:47:32.239 --> 01:47:33.840
It was an eye-opener for her, trust me.
01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:36.720
That's where he took me, not the Search Tower.
01:47:37.119 --> 01:47:40.079
To the Robert Taylor, Robert Taylor House.
01:47:40.319 --> 01:47:43.439
I heard that the Robert Taylors had like 75,000 residents.
01:47:44.079 --> 01:47:45.119
Sure did, maybe more.
01:47:45.199 --> 01:47:46.640
And half of them were gang members.
01:47:46.720 --> 01:47:46.880
Yeah.
01:47:47.039 --> 01:47:49.439
And that Kabini Green had another gang member.
01:47:49.520 --> 01:47:50.880
I mean, they ran those buildings.
01:47:51.119 --> 01:47:54.239
There was a tariff you paid to come in and out.
01:47:54.479 --> 01:47:57.520
So you was so you were a prosecutor during the sniper era.
01:47:57.840 --> 01:47:58.319
Yeah.
01:47:58.560 --> 01:47:58.880
Yeah.
01:47:59.279 --> 01:48:01.199
You know who Tony Occardo is?
01:48:01.359 --> 01:48:01.840
Yeah.
01:48:02.079 --> 01:48:04.079
You ain't never had no dealings with that side.
01:48:04.720 --> 01:48:05.279
He was older.
01:48:05.359 --> 01:48:07.840
You know, he was uh he lived out in River Forest.
01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:11.279
He was the head of the Chicago mob, and then there was Sam G and Connor.
01:48:11.840 --> 01:48:12.159
Yeah.
01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:16.800
This royal family, they got hooked up with a guy named Joe Fariola, who was number two.
01:48:17.119 --> 01:48:18.640
Joe DeGaulle, they called him.
01:48:18.800 --> 01:48:25.439
And that's how I first came involved with uh mob itself in the firsthand, you know.
01:48:25.840 --> 01:48:28.880
Because Tony Occordo's always been my favorite mobster.
01:48:29.279 --> 01:48:30.399
Because he was low-key.
01:48:30.560 --> 01:48:31.359
Very oh no.
01:48:31.439 --> 01:48:32.720
He never got in charge of nothing.
01:48:33.039 --> 01:48:33.199
Yeah.
01:48:33.439 --> 01:48:34.399
He never served a day in jail.
01:48:34.960 --> 01:48:36.239
A lot of people don't even know who that is.
01:48:36.800 --> 01:48:37.039
Oh, he was.
01:48:37.680 --> 01:48:39.680
He was Al Capone and Tony Accordo.
01:48:39.760 --> 01:48:40.079
Yeah, yeah.
01:48:40.319 --> 01:48:41.600
But he kept real low-key.
01:48:41.680 --> 01:48:44.479
He wasn't like John Gotti, you know, running around on TV.
01:48:45.199 --> 01:48:49.520
So I actually, so I actually got a friend who was a made guy.
01:48:49.680 --> 01:48:52.560
His people was made guys in in Brooklyn.
01:48:52.640 --> 01:48:54.720
And they do not like John Gotti.
01:48:55.039 --> 01:48:55.279
No.
01:48:55.600 --> 01:48:57.039
They cannot stand John Gotti.
01:48:57.359 --> 01:49:03.680
Like black people, people outside of the Lacosa Nosha, they'd be like, oh yeah, John Gotti.
01:49:04.239 --> 01:49:06.319
But people within it was like he fucked them up.
01:49:06.640 --> 01:49:07.039
They hated it.
01:49:07.119 --> 01:49:08.079
He fucked the whole thing up.
01:49:08.239 --> 01:49:09.199
He put heat on him.
01:49:09.359 --> 01:49:09.520
Yeah.
01:49:09.680 --> 01:49:15.439
He got that Rudy Giuliani to get really worked up and they sort of go, they went after everybody across the country at one point.
01:49:16.159 --> 01:49:18.479
Yeah, Tony never got touched.
01:49:18.800 --> 01:49:20.000
Classy guy in a way.
01:49:20.079 --> 01:49:31.600
I mean, so how did you feel about like the gang leader leaders, like the Jeff Force, the Willie Lloyds, the uh the Larry Hoover's, the David Barksdales, and all of that?
01:49:31.680 --> 01:49:34.720
Or you really weren't around for uh for David Barksdale.
01:49:34.800 --> 01:49:35.359
He would already know.
01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:36.399
Oh, I knew David Barksdale.
01:49:37.680 --> 01:49:37.840
Yeah.
01:49:38.560 --> 01:49:39.760
I mean, the whole deal.
01:49:39.840 --> 01:49:46.640
And the and the Latin gang members, too, the famous Cobras, Latin Kings, insane unknowns, two six boys.
01:49:46.800 --> 01:49:49.520
I mean, you had to become an expert on gangs.
01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:53.760
I mean, and know who was affiliated with who, who were they had right and left, you know, the whole bit.
01:49:53.840 --> 01:49:55.119
Like, you know that stuff, I'm sure.
01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:58.800
So, how was your like feeling towards like the gang leaders?
01:49:58.960 --> 01:50:01.760
Like, did you like how you You asked me about how I feel about prosecution.
01:50:02.079 --> 01:50:03.199
How do I feel about gang leaders?
01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:06.239
Okay, I met Larry Hoover and he was cool.
01:50:06.399 --> 01:50:07.520
I met him in prison.
01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:08.720
I actually went and talked to him.
01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:10.800
Willie Lloyd, Feisler, cool.
01:50:10.880 --> 01:50:11.520
I mean, they were cool.
01:50:11.680 --> 01:50:12.239
They were cool.
01:50:12.399 --> 01:50:15.439
They said, Well, you got some balls coming over here and talking with us.
01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:16.880
I go, What are you gonna do?
01:50:17.039 --> 01:50:17.520
Shoot me?
01:50:18.239 --> 01:50:19.680
You know, big joke.
01:50:20.159 --> 01:50:21.600
Jeff Jeff Ford.
01:50:22.000 --> 01:50:23.680
Jeff Ford was very cool.
01:50:23.840 --> 01:50:28.319
He um see, they became the mafia in a way.
01:50:28.399 --> 01:50:31.920
I mean, they ran the drug trade, they ran the gambling, they ran prostitution.
01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:33.520
That's what they did, okay?
01:50:34.000 --> 01:50:41.600
I wasn't, I was more upset as a prosecutor with the level of violence they can inflict on their own communities.
01:50:41.760 --> 01:50:46.640
That's what bothered me, is the fact that get control of your organization.
01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:49.520
I mean, that's one thing about the crime syndicate.
01:50:50.079 --> 01:50:51.760
They were pretty good shots.
01:50:52.239 --> 01:50:54.159
They went to shoot somebody, they shot the right person.
01:50:54.239 --> 01:50:55.279
These guys were not.
01:50:55.520 --> 01:50:58.560
And that was they were the leaders, so it's their job to get control.
01:50:58.640 --> 01:51:01.920
If they're gonna do this stuff, I wasn't a drug prosecutor.
01:51:02.000 --> 01:51:03.760
I didn't go after drug, that wasn't my thing.
01:51:03.840 --> 01:51:09.039
It was violent offenders, and and the leaders who wouldn't, because we we pled with these guys.
01:51:09.600 --> 01:51:10.720
This is your community.
01:51:10.880 --> 01:51:13.199
They always started out as community organizations.
01:51:13.600 --> 01:51:16.880
I don't know if they did that in LA, but no, they started off with gangs.
01:51:17.119 --> 01:51:17.520
They didn't?
01:51:17.680 --> 01:51:18.800
Yeah, they were just gangs always.
01:51:20.159 --> 01:51:25.920
This was like an organization because they would get funding from the federal government for doing certain things.
01:51:26.399 --> 01:51:27.439
And at times they did.
01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:29.520
You know, they thought they were Robin Hood or something.
01:51:29.760 --> 01:51:35.600
But the problem is they bring these young guys in and will get out of control, like violent guys.
01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:40.560
And they would just shoot indiscriminately in a park with a bunch of people.
01:51:40.880 --> 01:51:43.039
That was where we drew the line.
01:51:43.119 --> 01:51:43.520
That's it.
01:51:43.680 --> 01:51:48.319
And that's why we would focus on some of the leaders because they had control.
01:51:48.880 --> 01:51:50.560
Get these people under control.
01:51:51.520 --> 01:51:53.600
And that's how I felt about them.
01:51:53.680 --> 01:51:56.800
I mean, I didn't have a personal animus against them.
01:51:57.039 --> 01:52:02.399
I mean, if they would have done what they said they were trying to do to help the community, but they didn't.
01:52:02.720 --> 01:52:09.039
You didn't have anything, you didn't have any involvement in the uh the Larry Hoover prosecution, or you weren't a prosecutor by the time.
01:52:09.119 --> 01:52:15.119
No, but I was I was there when he but he was in in prison when I visited him in 1980, 81.
01:52:15.600 --> 01:52:16.479
He's still there.
01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:17.520
Yeah, I know.
01:52:17.760 --> 01:52:19.359
He's there a long time, man.
01:52:20.159 --> 01:52:22.479
I know that there's a petition to try to get him out.
01:52:22.720 --> 01:52:24.079
I doubt they're gonna let him out.
01:52:24.319 --> 01:52:25.920
Well, I mean, I think they will.
01:52:26.239 --> 01:52:30.560
I I mean, uh then again, things politics play a big role.
01:52:30.640 --> 01:52:31.760
Like see that day.
01:52:32.000 --> 01:52:38.800
Somebody might let the guy that in Minneapolis out that killed uh George Floyd, but they might not let Larry Hoover out.
01:52:38.960 --> 01:52:41.359
Because Larry Hoover had that 21st century vote.
01:52:41.520 --> 01:52:41.760
Yep.
01:52:41.920 --> 01:52:46.239
That's what really kind of changed everything when he got all those registered voters.
01:52:46.479 --> 01:52:47.279
Well, we had a lot of people.
01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:49.439
Yeah, we got everybody to register to vote.
01:52:49.680 --> 01:52:50.880
Because he's straightened out.
01:52:51.039 --> 01:52:52.720
I mean, he is rehabilitated.
01:52:52.800 --> 01:52:53.359
Like, look at you.
01:52:53.439 --> 01:52:54.880
What if they just say keep you in forever?
01:52:54.960 --> 01:52:57.039
Well, what a waste of humanity that is.
01:52:57.279 --> 01:53:05.439
You paid your debt, you did what you you know, what you were asked to do, and you came out 180 degree, but more than that.
01:53:05.600 --> 01:53:08.239
Not just as a turn, but a success.
01:53:08.399 --> 01:53:12.239
And I'm telling you something, man, I've never heard anything like it, to be quite honest.
01:53:12.640 --> 01:53:15.520
And I'm real serious that what you've accomplished.
01:53:15.680 --> 01:53:17.840
And oh, you're talking about you never heard nothing like me.
01:53:18.479 --> 01:53:19.680
I thought you were talking about Larry Hoover.
01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:20.479
No, no, no.
01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:30.079
You, what you did, I'm talking about because I mean I'm I'm really happy to have met you, just the fact that you did it.
01:53:30.239 --> 01:53:31.840
You know, talk is cheap.
01:53:31.920 --> 01:53:39.600
Yeah, you know, and and and you're not just rehabilitated, you re reformed, rehabilitated, and have something to offer.
01:53:39.760 --> 01:53:50.560
And that's why the more you can get on shows, the more you can talk to these people, these young people who are 17, 18, looking to do some, say, listen, man, I've been down that road.
01:53:50.640 --> 01:53:51.520
And you're honest about it.
01:53:51.680 --> 01:53:52.880
You said, Yeah, I was violent.
01:53:53.359 --> 01:53:54.319
You you're telling the truth.
01:53:54.399 --> 01:53:55.199
You're not sugar-coated.
01:53:55.520 --> 01:53:56.479
Like, well, I really wasn't.
01:53:56.560 --> 01:53:57.199
No, I was.
01:53:57.279 --> 01:54:07.199
But here's what happened: I I I funneled my aggression into something that ultimately was good for me, you, and ultimately now good for everybody else.
01:54:07.359 --> 01:54:10.800
And that's what they need to learn: how to funnel aggression.
01:54:11.039 --> 01:54:13.039
It's really passionate in a way, you know.
01:54:13.119 --> 01:54:15.199
It's like I really feel strongly about this.
01:54:15.520 --> 01:54:19.199
Well, quit feeling strongly about things that aren't going to do good.
01:54:19.359 --> 01:54:20.399
Do something that could help people.
01:54:20.720 --> 01:54:28.239
Let me ask you this: is it throughout your years as a prosecutor, is it anything that you regret doing?
01:54:29.039 --> 01:54:29.600
Yeah.
01:54:30.239 --> 01:54:31.760
Seeking the death penalty.
01:54:32.399 --> 01:54:33.359
And did you get it?
01:54:33.520 --> 01:54:34.880
I did it five times.
01:54:35.439 --> 01:54:38.000
And so you put five people down, did all of them die?
01:54:38.239 --> 01:54:38.960
Only one.
01:54:39.199 --> 01:54:41.279
Um I attended it to.
01:54:42.159 --> 01:54:43.680
And it still bothers me.
01:54:43.760 --> 01:54:45.840
I mean, it was only two years ago.
01:54:47.119 --> 01:54:52.560
And uh I was it was a case, guy was it was a murder, the contract killing in Arizona.
01:54:53.600 --> 01:54:54.960
And I got a letter.
01:54:55.119 --> 01:54:59.760
I still have it from uh Attorney General, the governor, said, uh, Greg Owen, Mr.
01:54:59.840 --> 01:55:08.000
Owen, you are cordially invited to be a witness at the cordially invited, which I thought was sick to say it like that.
01:55:08.880 --> 01:55:15.680
And so I called the prosecutor in Arizona that I worked the case with, and he didn't know if he wanted to go either.
01:55:15.760 --> 01:55:22.079
But the woman who survived, she was real old, she couldn't go, so we figured, well, we'll just go on her behalf, so to speak, because we knew her.
01:55:22.159 --> 01:55:24.640
She was way way too old, 86 or something.
01:55:26.720 --> 01:55:34.800
So a month before the execution, uh, NBC in Arizona asked me to come out there and they did an interview.
01:55:34.880 --> 01:55:36.720
It was a three-day series.
01:55:36.880 --> 01:55:40.079
It's still still we can still find it called The Last Hitman.
01:55:40.800 --> 01:55:43.840
And it was about how the Chicago mob was involved in this case.
01:55:44.399 --> 01:55:49.920
And so um we did the thing, and then I I thought it still I didn't think they'd execute him.
01:55:50.079 --> 01:55:52.479
I thought somebody would be a reprieve or something at the last minute.
01:55:52.640 --> 01:55:56.239
The guy was 78, been there for 43 years on death row in Arizona.
01:55:56.560 --> 01:56:03.760
And so when it got right down to it and they the Supreme Court denied it, and this and that, I thought, well, that's my next book.
01:56:03.840 --> 01:56:05.840
See, I'm writing a book about this king.
01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:09.039
I said, Well, you talk about a conclusion.
01:56:09.520 --> 01:56:12.319
I mean, how many people can prosecute a case and be there?
01:56:12.399 --> 01:56:14.079
And I didn't wasn't looking forward to it.
01:56:14.159 --> 01:56:17.279
It was just I want to know how I felt.
01:56:17.680 --> 01:56:18.560
What did I feel like?
01:56:18.640 --> 01:56:21.840
Because I felt really upset the night before I asked the death penalty.
01:56:21.920 --> 01:56:23.920
I went to see my minister at church.
01:56:24.560 --> 01:56:26.000
Am I doing something bad here?
01:56:26.560 --> 01:56:28.800
You know, do I we have a right to do this?
01:56:29.920 --> 01:56:30.880
So I did it.
01:56:31.039 --> 01:56:32.399
And I did it well.
01:56:32.880 --> 01:56:38.000
You know, and it's I don't know if you can know this, but when you do it once, second time it's not quite as hard.
01:56:38.159 --> 01:56:40.720
You know, third, fourth time it's not hard at all.
01:56:40.960 --> 01:56:44.880
But you know, because you're not even really appreciating what's the significance of what you're doing.
01:56:45.039 --> 01:56:46.159
You never really think it's gonna happen.
01:56:46.239 --> 01:56:48.159
Well, now I'm sitting there, it's happening, right?
01:56:48.399 --> 01:56:55.680
It's 24 people in a little room, very small, tight, little they had eight, eight seats, and there were three levels.
01:56:55.840 --> 01:56:58.800
So it was it, it was smaller, a lot smaller than this.
01:56:59.760 --> 01:57:04.079
And the regimentation they went through before they did this was scary, you know.
01:57:04.399 --> 01:57:11.760
Five guys all dressed in the same outfit, black things over their faces, their same hats, packy pants, black gloves.
01:57:11.840 --> 01:57:16.159
I mean, the guy goes one anyway and they take off certain chains.
01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:19.279
And then he takes certain velcro.
01:57:19.520 --> 01:57:23.680
I mean, it was like watching the Marine Corps at arms, right?
01:57:24.159 --> 01:57:25.119
That made me upset.
01:57:25.199 --> 01:57:26.720
I said, This is stupid, you know.
01:57:26.800 --> 01:57:31.279
And he's he's down in the and then they bring and then all of a sudden the curtain opens, and there he is.
01:57:32.399 --> 01:57:33.520
And they botched it.
01:57:34.640 --> 01:57:40.159
They went to do it, they went to put it in his his arm and they couldn't find a vein.
01:57:41.199 --> 01:57:46.079
And so they went for a smartery and they missed in the blood set of squirting.
01:57:46.560 --> 01:57:48.720
And they got these nurses all full of blood.
01:57:49.119 --> 01:57:50.239
They had to close the curtains.
01:57:50.319 --> 01:57:51.760
Two people passed out, I'm like.
01:57:52.560 --> 01:57:54.319
This is the sickest thing I've ever seen.
01:57:54.399 --> 01:57:56.239
Just the whole process.
01:57:56.479 --> 01:58:02.159
It's like what and he's laying there and they got him all mic'd up, you know.
01:58:02.319 --> 01:58:03.600
You could hear him playing his day.
01:58:04.399 --> 01:58:07.359
And there's a female minister priest at his head.
01:58:07.840 --> 01:58:08.720
She's praying.
01:58:09.920 --> 01:58:13.199
Finally, they get him cleaned up, the warden comes in and makes a big announcement.
01:58:13.279 --> 01:58:18.640
You know, there's no appeals, nobody's called us, so we're gonna carry out the order of the court.
01:58:19.439 --> 01:58:22.399
And the guy looked at us and he goes, Let's get it on.
01:58:23.680 --> 01:58:24.880
The dude is about to die.
01:58:26.239 --> 01:58:29.039
He said it just as plainly as they go, let's get it on.
01:58:29.119 --> 01:58:33.119
And then he said, he says, First of all, why y'all motherfuckers wearing all that?
01:58:33.199 --> 01:58:34.079
I know who y'all.
01:58:34.640 --> 01:58:35.680
The guys with the garbage.
01:58:36.159 --> 01:58:37.600
He says, I know every one of y'all.
01:58:39.119 --> 01:58:43.359
And then they started and they had a camera on these three plungers.
01:58:43.920 --> 01:58:47.199
One, you know, each one went down, you know, you could see it.
01:58:48.159 --> 01:58:49.600
And I said, This is sickness.
01:58:49.760 --> 01:58:51.119
I mean, we shouldn't be doing this to people.
01:58:51.279 --> 01:58:51.760
This is not right.
01:58:51.840 --> 01:58:52.479
This is the government.
01:58:52.560 --> 01:58:54.479
And we're showing this as an exhibition.
01:58:54.880 --> 01:58:58.560
And the people were there, they were just friends of the governor or somebody, you know.
01:58:59.199 --> 01:59:00.479
They were asking us for autographs.
01:59:03.520 --> 01:59:06.800
That to me was the sickest thing I've ever heard somebody say.
01:59:06.960 --> 01:59:08.239
Oh, we have your autograph.
01:59:09.039 --> 01:59:12.000
Some guy's ready to get executed and they want my autograph.
01:59:12.159 --> 01:59:13.520
I said, please.
01:59:14.800 --> 01:59:15.199
Please.
01:59:15.600 --> 01:59:20.079
And my guy next to me, the other prosecutor, I can get chills when I think about this now.
01:59:20.319 --> 01:59:24.800
He said, Man, I don't ever want I am totally against the death penalty.
01:59:25.439 --> 01:59:27.760
And I am way against it now.
01:59:28.000 --> 01:59:28.720
It's not right.
01:59:28.880 --> 01:59:30.239
We don't have a right to do that to people.
01:59:30.319 --> 01:59:36.319
I don't care what they're, I don't care what anybody says, we do not have the right under law to take somebody else's life.
01:59:36.479 --> 01:59:37.920
Life is sacred and precious.
01:59:38.079 --> 01:59:46.239
They may have done something, they're gonna pay for it, and they're gonna pay someday when they go wherever they go, but we don't have a right to do that for on in on somebody's behalf.
01:59:46.479 --> 01:59:48.720
So I got a death row story.
01:59:49.199 --> 01:59:51.199
So I was in Vontier, Missouri.
01:59:51.600 --> 01:59:54.239
Von Tere, Missouri is where they kill the people.
01:59:54.640 --> 01:59:58.079
And I was in the cell with a dude when he got served as death warrant.
01:59:58.399 --> 02:00:00.000
You know, they bring you a death warrant.
02:00:00.239 --> 02:00:02.159
So me and this dude actually got cool.
02:00:02.239 --> 02:00:04.159
He was a cool dude, old dude.
02:00:04.640 --> 02:00:07.039
And um they come to the cell.
02:00:07.119 --> 02:00:10.159
When they come to the cell, they come and uh they call them uh cert.
02:00:10.560 --> 02:00:15.359
You know, the cert where they put on the armor and they got the shield, they got the helmet, they got all of that.
02:00:15.520 --> 02:00:21.359
So they come to the uh cell, it's probably like four or five of them, and they say his name and his number.
02:00:21.439 --> 02:00:22.560
They like come to the door.
02:00:22.640 --> 02:00:23.760
He already knew what it was.
02:00:23.840 --> 02:00:25.359
I didn't know what was going on.
02:00:25.600 --> 02:00:27.359
And they read him his warrant.
02:00:27.439 --> 02:00:33.760
Like, yeah, you got a warrant from the governor of Missouri, you're supposed to be executed at 12.01 a.m.
02:00:34.000 --> 02:00:35.359
on such and such, such and such.
02:00:35.439 --> 02:00:36.640
We're here to serve you your warrant.
02:00:36.720 --> 02:00:38.000
We need you to cuff up.
02:00:38.319 --> 02:00:43.119
And then they open the door, they turn around, they cuff him up, they put him in shackles, and then they walk him out.
02:00:43.600 --> 02:00:49.840
But when the dude, when they came to the door, we just sitting there talking, watching some music videos or something.
02:00:50.000 --> 02:00:52.800
They knock on the door, they turn on the light, he sees him.
02:00:53.199 --> 02:00:55.039
I'm like, man, what the fuck they on?
02:00:55.199 --> 02:00:55.920
He already knew.
02:00:56.159 --> 02:00:57.600
Like, man, they're coming to get me.
02:00:57.760 --> 02:00:59.119
I'm like, man, what you just do?
02:00:59.359 --> 02:01:00.239
I'm a shit talker.
02:01:00.479 --> 02:01:01.600
Ah, man, what you just do?
02:01:01.680 --> 02:01:02.479
Some, some, some.
02:01:02.800 --> 02:01:05.199
He's like, nah, man, they probably about to read my death warrant.
02:01:05.279 --> 02:01:06.319
I'm like, what the fuck is that?
02:01:06.399 --> 02:01:08.000
He's like, man, you know I'm on death row.
02:01:08.079 --> 02:01:08.800
I said, yeah.
02:01:09.439 --> 02:01:09.920
I'm young.
02:01:10.079 --> 02:01:11.520
You know, I'm like 19, 20.
02:01:11.600 --> 02:01:12.800
I'm like, what the fuck is that?
02:01:13.039 --> 02:01:15.199
He's like, man, death warrant is from the governor.
02:01:15.279 --> 02:01:16.960
They about to kill me tomorrow.
02:01:17.279 --> 02:01:18.880
So I'm like, for real?
02:01:19.279 --> 02:01:23.119
And it's it's not funny, but this is kind of funny.
02:01:23.359 --> 02:01:29.439
Because like, if you in the cell with somebody and they take them to the hole, you like, hey man, what you want me to do with this?
02:01:29.520 --> 02:01:30.960
What you want me to do with your property?
02:01:31.039 --> 02:01:31.439
What you want me?
02:01:31.600 --> 02:01:33.039
I'm gonna holler at you, see you later.
02:01:33.199 --> 02:01:35.279
I don't know what the fuck to tell him.
02:01:35.359 --> 02:01:38.000
I don't even, this conversation was so awkward.
02:01:38.079 --> 02:01:40.079
Because he like, yeah, they about to come and give me.
02:01:40.159 --> 02:01:41.359
So I'm looking like, damn.
02:01:41.760 --> 02:01:43.600
Like, you want me to pack your canteen up?
02:01:43.680 --> 02:01:44.239
You want your food?
02:01:44.399 --> 02:01:45.600
What you, what you, what you like?
02:01:45.680 --> 02:01:46.159
I don't know.
02:01:46.319 --> 02:01:49.600
I don't, at the time, it was like, damn, this is fucked up.
02:01:49.920 --> 02:01:52.960
But I just try to find humor and shit to see.
02:01:53.439 --> 02:01:55.439
I just didn't know what to tell him, what to tell him.
02:01:55.600 --> 02:01:57.119
I can't tell you, I'm gonna see you later.
02:01:57.279 --> 02:02:02.479
I can't be like, hey man, you be cool, you be easy, none of the stereotypical goodbyes.
02:02:02.880 --> 02:02:04.800
I'm just looking like, damn.
02:02:05.039 --> 02:02:06.479
He's like, oh yeah, man.
02:02:06.560 --> 02:02:08.720
And then he's not telling me what to do with the shit.
02:02:08.800 --> 02:02:09.920
He got other stuff on his mind.
02:02:10.159 --> 02:02:13.520
I'm sure he's so I'm just like, man, what you want me to do with this shit?
02:02:13.680 --> 02:02:16.239
Like, you got food and shit, these cold, like, what do you like?
02:02:16.319 --> 02:02:17.199
How did this even go?
02:02:17.359 --> 02:02:21.840
Well, he go to the door, they cuff him up, put him in shackles, he don't say nothing else.
02:02:21.920 --> 02:02:23.680
And then they just walk him out.
02:02:24.000 --> 02:02:27.279
But this is how crazy Bon Terra was.
02:02:28.000 --> 02:02:34.319
So they always it's always a party when they execute somebody in the penitentiary.
02:02:34.960 --> 02:02:35.920
I'm sorry.
02:02:42.479 --> 02:02:42.800
Okay.
02:02:43.279 --> 02:02:47.520
So they throw a party when they execute somebody in the penitentiary.
02:02:47.600 --> 02:02:50.560
I don't know if they do it anywhere else, but Yeah, they do separate the extra.
02:02:50.720 --> 02:02:50.960
Yeah.
02:02:51.199 --> 02:02:58.399
So uh when they came to get him, the next day, they'll always lock us down early.
02:02:58.560 --> 02:02:58.800
Yep.
02:02:58.960 --> 02:03:02.640
Like around three, four o'clock, they'll lock the whole penitentiary down.
02:03:02.880 --> 02:03:07.279
But we knew somebody was dying because they'll always give us a certain meal.
02:03:07.439 --> 02:03:10.159
They'll give us hamburgers, they give us cheese.
02:03:10.399 --> 02:03:11.680
We never get cheeseburgers.
02:03:11.760 --> 02:03:13.600
Ever do they put cheese on the hamburgers?
02:03:13.840 --> 02:03:19.279
They'll give us cheeseburgers, tater tots, and homemade chocolate chip cookies.
02:03:19.520 --> 02:03:21.359
That's when you know somebody's getting killed.
02:03:21.439 --> 02:03:28.159
And they'll shut the yard down roughly around three or four o'clock, and then the CEOs actually have a party.
02:03:28.399 --> 02:03:31.359
Not like a, I don't, I've never been to the party, but I heard about it.
02:03:31.439 --> 02:03:41.279
They'll have like a celebration or the state one, and they'll have music and little snacks and all of this old type of shit, and then they'll kill them.
02:03:41.520 --> 02:03:45.760
And then another another thing they did, they cut the uh the cable off.
02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:46.239
Yeah.
02:03:46.479 --> 02:03:53.119
They always cut the cable off so we don't know when or because you know it's gonna be in the news about them uh getting executed.
02:03:53.279 --> 02:03:55.520
They'll cut the cable off for probably about 24 hours.
02:03:55.600 --> 02:04:01.039
You can't watch TV, then they'll feed you this, and then they'll lock us down, and then they'll come and get the person.
02:04:01.359 --> 02:04:05.600
Because in Missouri, uh there's five levels, custody levels.
02:04:05.760 --> 02:04:08.479
One, two, three, four, five, five is the highest custody level.
02:04:08.640 --> 02:04:13.119
But right before you're about to die, that last 24 hours, they consider you a level six.
02:04:13.359 --> 02:04:21.119
And when you're a level six, everything has to be locked down when they move you from your cell to wherever you're going, and then they'll execute you.
02:04:21.279 --> 02:04:23.680
But I was in the cell with a person when they uh execute.
02:04:23.920 --> 02:04:28.880
I didn't know if they killed him, but I know he didn't come back to the cell, and the next day we got the cheeseburgers.
02:04:29.039 --> 02:04:30.399
Well, then you know what happened then, man.
02:04:30.640 --> 02:04:34.079
Yeah, so they they they had uh they had killed him, but that was hella.
02:04:34.479 --> 02:04:40.159
So when you're talking about, I didn't see it, but just like from You saw the part before you saw the part.
02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:42.960
I saw where we were given the whole story basically.
02:04:43.760 --> 02:04:48.640
Um I just want to tell you, um, it's almost like an honor.
02:04:48.720 --> 02:04:53.439
I know that sounds corny, but I'm not a corny person, so I can say it, uh, to meet you.
02:04:53.760 --> 02:04:57.520
Because I always wondered myself as a prosecutor what would happen.
02:04:57.600 --> 02:05:04.000
You know, I prosecuted plenty of 18, 19-year-old young men, and they were given lengthy prison sentences.
02:05:04.239 --> 02:05:08.239
And now for myself, I often wondered, you know, I wonder what really happened.
02:05:08.319 --> 02:05:10.079
You know, what did they do with themselves?
02:05:10.479 --> 02:05:12.000
Did they did something happen to them?
02:05:12.159 --> 02:05:13.680
Did they change to get better?
02:05:13.840 --> 02:05:18.159
I I did feel sorry for the families of the bad people, the defendants.
02:05:18.239 --> 02:05:18.479
I did.
02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:23.840
I felt really bad for the victims, but I also, you know, the mom, everybody's got a mom.
02:05:24.399 --> 02:05:29.199
And um that used to make me feel really sad because they lost someone too.
02:05:30.159 --> 02:05:54.800
So to see someone who came through all that and was prosecuted by a prosecutor like me for committing a murder like I did, and that they um took what happened to them and turned it around so dramatically and offer something for society that's uh very important, especially today, more than ever.
02:05:55.039 --> 02:05:56.640
I want to applaud you for that.
02:05:57.680 --> 02:05:58.479
Thank you.
02:05:59.439 --> 02:06:05.359
Uh let me let me uh let me tell you something real quick too.
02:06:05.520 --> 02:06:12.319
Uh thank you for being even willing to sit down with somebody we said is an ex-gang member.
02:06:12.640 --> 02:06:16.880
Because you you're not from here and you don't know what could go down.
02:06:17.039 --> 02:06:19.920
But you, you know, he may have some type of attachment to that.
02:06:20.079 --> 02:06:22.079
So for you to even have the courage to do that.
02:06:22.159 --> 02:06:27.359
I mean, I know you dealt with a lot of stuff, but you in a whole nother city, and so that was dope.
02:06:27.439 --> 02:06:29.840
We threw the idea and you was like, bring it on.
02:06:30.000 --> 02:06:31.199
So that was dope.
02:06:31.359 --> 02:06:38.159
So in closing, we're gonna ask you to leave us marked out for the uh leave the world marked out with some words.
02:06:38.479 --> 02:06:39.119
Just say what?
02:06:39.279 --> 02:06:44.239
Marked out like just some words for the minds and the hearts for people to stick to their minds and their hearts.
02:06:44.399 --> 02:06:44.720
Okay.
02:06:45.039 --> 02:06:45.439
Yep.
02:06:45.600 --> 02:06:48.399
Yeah, just the camera, talking to the world.
02:06:48.640 --> 02:07:01.119
Okay, so I want to say something that I've learned uh over my lifetime, particularly as a prosecutor, and that says it's this obstacles don't mean defeat, as we've heard.
02:07:01.279 --> 02:07:06.960
Uh, they mean sometimes you have to work harder, think differently, and never give up.
02:07:07.199 --> 02:07:08.720
And I think that's important.
02:07:08.800 --> 02:07:16.239
And, you know, as we say, character isn't revealed when life is easy, it's revealed when given doing the right thing can cost you a lot.
02:07:16.319 --> 02:07:20.000
And I think people have to remember that and don't hide your integrity.
02:07:20.159 --> 02:07:23.199
You know, don't don't be different when your people aren't seeing you.
02:07:23.279 --> 02:07:24.319
You got to show it to.
02:07:25.119 --> 02:07:39.920
So I think that um my my my my my thought about everything I've been through is that we're all people, we make mistakes, we try to do the right thing, and we, you know, hopefully are led by a higher being.
02:07:40.079 --> 02:07:41.840
In my case, it's with the Lord.
02:07:42.079 --> 02:07:47.359
And I've always conducted myself that way, and it's really um done well for me.
02:07:47.439 --> 02:07:53.920
And I've always believed so and even as a prosecutor, you know, my biggest fear was am I prosecuting an innocent person?
02:07:54.079 --> 02:07:55.680
And I couldn't live with that.
02:07:55.840 --> 02:08:00.720
So I felt good about what I did, and um, I felt good about what I heard here today.
02:08:00.880 --> 02:08:01.760
I couldn't feel better.
02:08:01.840 --> 02:08:05.920
So I'm pleased that I had the opportunity to be with you all here today.
02:08:06.079 --> 02:08:06.800
Thanks again.
02:08:07.039 --> 02:08:09.760
The goal is to leave a lashing imprint on their minds and their hearts.
02:08:09.840 --> 02:08:11.680
We pray you've been indelibly marked.
02:08:19.359 --> 02:08:20.159
I didn't know if you wanted to.
02:08:20.319 --> 02:08:20.960
No, no, no.
02:08:21.199 --> 02:08:22.800
I was I was gonna I was gonna say something funny.
02:08:22.880 --> 02:08:24.159
I had something funny, I was about to stop.