Six Feet Under

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Music.
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Hi, welcome to In Sync, the podcast that explores the history and impact of
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some of your favorite music moments in TV and film.
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I'm your host Rachel Brodsky and I'm Aviv Rubenstein. Today we're going to talk
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about one of Rachel's all time favorite needle drops in one of her all time favorite shows.
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Sia's Breathe Me in the series finale of six ft Under.
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And a little later in the show, we're going to talk to Gary Kalmar and Thomas
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Gilovich, the music supervisors for six ft under about how this needle drop came to be.
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But first a little background on the show, the song and the artist just a quick
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note In our conversation about
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six ft under. I mispronounced Thomas Gold Bitch's name a couple of times.
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I learned the proper pronunciation after we recorded. So I'm sorry to Thomas
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for sounding like a bit of an unprepared ass all that and more on this episode of in Sync.
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Music.
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Okay. So tell me how you came to love six ft under like you did.
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Okay. This is a pretty good story. I think so.
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I didn't have HBO. So six ft Under is one of the first prestige,
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I guess TV, dramas in the early days of HBO'S launch into not HBO.
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Yeah, it's in the Pantheon of great, early two thousand's TV shows on HBO.
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Kind of came out around the same time as The Sopranos and Sex in the City though.
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I don't think it gets talked about enough as much as those other two shows.
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The way that I came into the show was that I was studying abroad in luck And I got sick all the time.
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It's like any, it's like I got, I came down with like,
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the worst colds of my life and in one week I had horrible, horrible food poisoning
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and I basically spent the entire week in bed just watching illegally downloading
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and watching episodes of 6ft under and the cops are at the door. Yeah.
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But I think the statute of limitations has passed because this was like, 2007.
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Yeah. So, um, I basically streamed the entire series that week.
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Just binge the whole thing. And it is now my comfort show.
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Interesting since seen it probably. I don't even know how many times, at least 567 times.
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It's an interesting comfort show for sure, because it's very much about death and die.
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Yes. But it's also one of the most touching and poignant shows I think.
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Like, yes, it's technically about death and dying. This is a show that is a
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drama about a family that, that runs a family business that happens to be a funeral home.
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And you learn a lot about embalming lots of things that I think Jewish kids
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don't get to learn about because, because these Jewish families don't historically embalm their dead.
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So it's a dark show. It's a really funny show.
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It's a character driven show. And you basically see this, this group of people,
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some of whom are part of the family and some of whom are friends of the family
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and co workers with the family.
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Um, in this sort of a snapshot of like five years out of this family's life
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and what and what each of them go through and how they grow and I love character driven shows.
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Yeah, you'll hear in a little bit about kind of the sweet spot that six ft under
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hit between being like morbid, you know, there's, there's death in every episode.
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They're talking about embalming and you know what happens to a body as it's
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decomposing and also like, weirdly very life affirming.
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That's why I love it. That's why I love it. It's a show that grows with you.
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Um, as I have watched it repeatedly over the last maybe 13 years of my life,
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it's something where you kind of like you.
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Like when I was younger, I identified with like the youngest daughter Claire
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clip played by Lauren Ambrose because I was around her age when Great Lauren
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soon to appear in Yellow jackets.
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But then as I get older I identify with and empathize with characters who are more in their thirties.
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And I love the way that it's not often that you watch a show where you feel
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like you're growing with the characters of the characters grow with you.
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And you also get to kind of pass through the characters and their stages of
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their life, which is quite exactly.
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So it's a very life affirming show. It's very funny. It points out just a lot
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of really, um, it's very absurd and I'm,
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I'm a great lover of absurdism and like, anything that kind of points out,
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like, just sort of skewers.
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Things that you do in everyday life and yeah, things are supposed to be serious,
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but we're talking specifically not about the whole show.
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This will be a love fest on six ft under. Don't you worry? But we're talking
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about one needle drop specifically, which is the one that everyone talks about on this show.
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Yes. Yes. So this show did a great job across the board with music and it's
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probably as Aviva sing talked about the most for its serious finale which aired
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in 2005 and the, the season or the serious finale, I should say closed out with
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a very famous song by a very famous singer, Sia's Breathe Me ends the entire series.
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You can't take a picture of this. It's already gone.
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Music.
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Help. I have,
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I
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the worst. There's No one else.
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Music.
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May. So this, this is a famous song write.
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This song became probably much, much more famous because of specifically this
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the way it was used in this episode.
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So, CIA is an Australian singer songwriter today. She's definitely best known
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for her 2014 Chandelier um probably also cheap thrills.
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It definitely holds up. But in 2004, CEO was probably better known in the indie scene.
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She had provided vocals in the British Duo 07.
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She was in a jazz band called Crisp. Her first solo album only see dropped in 1997.
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And then she followed that up with healing is difficult that came out in 2001.
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But Breathe Me was on her third solo album. Arguably her breakout album color. The small one.
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I, I remember CIA, I remember the CIA music video where she put all those condoms
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on her head and I knew her as this sort of like freak out artist.
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And I had no idea even at the time that I saw this episode had no idea that
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this was the same person.
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When was this, when, when was the condoms on the head there I think that that
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was like 2006 or 2007. I didn't see this finale until about two 1008 because
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I had fallen off of the show when I moved to college and no longer had HBO.
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I think most people identify with her as really having a breakthrough moment in the 20 tens.
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And around this time where she was not showing her face, she had already gone
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through a few different career journeys.
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By the time she became famous for Chandelier, she had become pretty sought after
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for writing songs for other artists. She was like, I, you know,
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I don't want to be in the spotlight anymore.
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Um She has spoken about her journeys with mental health and I think she,
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you know, she felt her anxiety and depression and so on.
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Um was just not suitable for a life in the spotlight. So that's basically why
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she in the 20 ten's started. Um.
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Writing specifically more for, you know, more in the spotlight.
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Artists like I think like Katy Perry is one for Jonah and many other,
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she's probably made written more of the hits, more hits than,
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than you know, her from Yes,
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that being said, um Chandelier I think was one that she wanted to keep for herself
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if memory serves and then it kind of took on a life of its own.
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And then um more recently she has, I mean, she's, since then Chandelier took
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up, she's done a ton of hit collaborations like Titanium with David Guetta.
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I didn't know that was her, that I know that song from Pitch Perfect. That is very much her.
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She, I think more recently though has come under a little fire for a movie she
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put out recently talking about musicians and movies.
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Yes. Um called mu which I did not see, I have no plans to see it.
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It starred her Muse Maddie Ziegler who I think she was on dance moms and Maddie
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Ziegler is the girl from the new West Side story, right? No,
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I think that's Rachel Ziegler.
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I'll just go myself. I didn't realize that those were two different people.
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Maddie Ziegler was in an HBO movie recently with, what's your name?
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Oh, she's like, yeah, this is a totally, totally, maybe she wasn't.
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So, you were right? No, it's cool.
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Um, uh, it makes sense because Maddie Ziegler became really well known when
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she was only about 12 for being this terrific dancer.
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And I actually interviewed her once back in 2014 and thought she was remarkably
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self welcome post for a 12 year old.
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And um anyhow Maddie Ziegler is.
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She's no longer a kid. But at the time, um I think her appearing as a dancer and.
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The music video for Chandelier became so went so viral that Maddie basically
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appeared in like every other um see a video like from that era.
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Yeah. And anyway, she has since
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appeared in the movie, music playing um a young girl on the spectrum.
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She is not actually herself on the spectrum and I didn't see the movie,
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but from my vantage point, it kind of looked like not criticism seemed a bit
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in line with. Do you remember the movie?
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The other sister? Yes, Juliette Lewis Yellowjackets cast member,
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Juliette Lewis to me and that movie got a lot of hate at the time because I
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mean, it was like a And this is like 20 years later. Yeah.
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So I think I think your, your assessment of like these characters on the spectrum
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is more nuanced than even the performance was, which was like
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from all accounts, once again, for any of you music stands out there that like
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love it and think we're way off, neither of us have seen it.
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So we're talking out of our asses but it seems like it was just kind of the
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one note of, you know, mental, mental handy.
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Yeah, I mean, we have come a long way culturally in the way that we talk about
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who we should be casting in roles where, um you know, the characters have our.
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Special needs or they're on the spectrum and um it's become the disabled community
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has a, has a motto now that says nothing about us without us,
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which is, yeah, I didn't know that.
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Yeah. So, so C C has been well say canceled light for, for not taking the time
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to cast an actor that is authentically, you know.
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And I think also the movie I just heard was not great. Also true.
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If the movie was great, people would probably over. It doesn't help.
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One last thing that I want to say about CIA because I'm seeing some notes.
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CIA has actually never won a Grammy, but she has been nominated for nine.
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Yeah, incredibly shocking that she didn't win for Chandelier.
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It is and in 2021 NPR called CIA, the 21st century's most resilient songwriter
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Brazilian is definitely the key word.
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CIA has had many lives as a singer songwriter, performer, director.
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Um I think we'll be seeing a lot more from CIA that is in a nutshell.
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Cia's background. But in the year 2004, she was fairly not well known.
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I mean, she was probably better known in indie music circles,
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definitely played on college radio, independent radio and noncommercial radio.
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Thus, this is how she ended up on our show, Gary Callum, our show, correct.
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So we're going to be talking to Gary Calamari and Thomas Lubeck who were music supervisors
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on six ft under about their experience finding this song getting the song in
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the, in the finale of six ft under and kind of the shock waves that it made in the culture, right?
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See his career, their careers and the culture at large.
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Because if there's one thing that is true about six ft under,
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it was a, it was really a cultural Touchstone of the early and mid two thousands
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and and now maybe we can switch gears and talk about finally six ft under.
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And how it used music to further the moments that Rachel has been waiting for
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so brief history of six ft Under
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the show stars Peter Krause as Nate Fisher, whose father Nathaniel Sr dies and gives him the
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the ownership of their family, funeral home, Fisher and sons, funeral home to Nate.
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Their other son, David played by Pre Dexter Michael C Hall is very jealous and
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so there's like this brotherly competition between them.
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Um and they also have to take care of their mom, Ruth Fisher Fisher played by
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Frances Conroy and their younger sister Claire Conroy. Claire Claire Fisher.
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Played by Lauren Ambrose when Nate does receive like, I think half of a stake
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in of ownership in the family business.
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It's like this is something he has run away from his whole life.
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He never wanted to be a funeral director.
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He has a lot of inner conflict about that and, and uh it's like he doesn't live
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in Los Angeles where his family is based. He's currently, he's kind of more
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someone who like runs, you know, a bit more free spirit has lived in many places, held many jobs.
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Um, and his, his younger brother who already runs the business with his father who has since deceased.
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He has just done what everyone has expected of him.
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I think he, in his heart of hearts, hearts Wants to be a lawyer and um is just
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kind of just moved into the funeral home business out of a sense of family duty. Right. Right.
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The show premiered in June of 2001 and it ran until August of 05.
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It had 63 episodes in total, which in the grand scheme of things is not that
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many episodes when we're talking about network shows that used to do 12,
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three episodes per season.
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The show focuses as Rachel mentioned on mortality and the symbiotic nature of
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life and death and the death industry, those who live off of death, right?
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And Alan Ball, the creator of the show, who also wrote the screenplay for American
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Beauty won an Oscar for the screenplay for American Beauty.
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Elaborate on the questions of the show's pilot this way, he says,
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who are these people who are funeral directors that we hired to face death for us?
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And what does that do to their own lives? To grow up in a home where there are
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dead bodies in the basement to be a child and walking on your father with a
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body laying on the table opening opened up and him working on it.
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Like what would that do to you?
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So these, these are the questions that six ft under explores throughout its
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entire run, five season run. But.
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It all starts with the pilot. Cultural critic Sally Munt said one might,
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this is, this is as the show is taking off.
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Cultural critic, Sally said one might risk saying the show has an uncanny or
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queer rendition of class positions in relations.
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New York magazine said that the show carefully avoided moralism,
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but there were times where it felt like the message that death has terrible
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timing but also could be a karmic gift.
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And Alan Ball said that this was not the message of the show.
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Um and that there was no message in the story but only a recognition that death
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comes in the middle of messy things and doesn't wait around for us to sort out our lives, which
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is a theme that carries through the entire series but is no more present than in the finale.
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Um the first season averaged about five million viewers per episode.
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Rolling Stone reports that in 2004, the show was averaging $6.2 million 2.5.
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So compare that with a network show of the time friends averaged 24 million
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viewers per week in 2001. So that's not to say the six ft Under wasn't a hit or wasn't relevant.
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20 for the show. 24 premiered in 2001 because of course it did and its first
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season averaged 8.6 million.
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So for HBO, which is a subscription based service to even come Within spitting
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distance of like a big network show, like 24 is huge.
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But this is all, to note that HBO shows, including like all the way up to this day.
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The most popular ones of all time game of Thrones are sopranos or whatever.
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They live a little more through their cultural and critical significance than
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how many people watch. Right.
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Yeah. They're water cooler shows if water coolers still existed.
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And the show's first season received 23 Emmy nominations. Yeah.
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It was highly critically acclaimed, incredibly, incredibly popular.
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And it's interesting that, I mean, now I think this week we,
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that the, the house of the dragon numbers came out and I think it was something like,
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like 10 million viewers, which actually is very, very big. And, yeah. And, and.
00:22:03.642 --> 00:22:10.252
Network shows have declined. So now like a 10,000,010 million views in a in
00:22:10.252 --> 00:22:13.332
a week is actually very, very good for a network show.
00:22:13.342 --> 00:22:17.322
When 20 years ago that would have gotten you canceled. It won Golden Globes,
00:22:17.332 --> 00:22:22.012
it won screen Actors Guild Awards and even won a Peabody for general excellence
00:22:22.022 --> 00:22:25.347
in its treat of death and humanity.
00:22:25.357 --> 00:22:31.017
So even though it only got five million views per week, the show was like a cultural juggernaut.
00:22:31.027 --> 00:22:36.527
But I want to take us back to how the show got started because the finale of
00:22:36.527 --> 00:22:43.112
the show talks directly to the pilot of the show in a, in a really interesting way.
00:22:43.292 --> 00:22:49.902
So this is from Alan Ball in a rolling stone interview from 2015 and the 10
00:22:49.902 --> 00:22:53.532
year anniversary of the finale of um of six ft Under.
00:22:53.532 --> 00:22:58.442
So I'm gonna be Alan Ball for a second in the fall of 1999. I was working on
00:22:58.442 --> 00:23:03.372
a television series I created for ABC called Oh Grow Up, which in retrospect,
00:23:03.372 --> 00:23:06.492
I'm not sure as a show that I myself would have ever watched.
00:23:06.502 --> 00:23:11.762
But American Beauty had premiered in September of that year and So I got a call
00:23:11.762 --> 00:23:17.432
from the then president of HBO Carolyn Strauss asking if I would meet with her for lunch.
00:23:17.442 --> 00:23:20.912
And that was right about this time that I had discovered the Sopranos and,
00:23:20.922 --> 00:23:25.092
and I was amazed that, oh TV, can be like this, right? And this is kind of the
00:23:25.092 --> 00:23:29.602
first, as Rachel mentioned the first through the wall, these shows that were
00:23:29.602 --> 00:23:31.602
pressed eg and also popular.
00:23:31.612 --> 00:23:35.972
So Alan, I met with her and she told me that she had been thinking about a TV
00:23:35.972 --> 00:23:39.812
series set in a family run funeral home and something in my head just clicked.
00:23:39.822 --> 00:23:42.722
But I was doing this other show and I'm not a person who could do two shows
00:23:42.722 --> 00:23:45.432
at once. So I said, well, good luck with that.
00:23:45.572 --> 00:23:49.322
And I really like the idea, but I can't because I'm doing the sitcom and not
00:23:49.322 --> 00:23:54.632
too long after that, abc very graciously canceled my show. So.
00:23:54.766 --> 00:23:59.226
Alan went back to Atlanta for Christmas break because my mom was still alive
00:23:59.226 --> 00:24:01.196
back then. And I just wrote the pilot.
00:24:01.206 --> 00:24:05.316
I had two years left on my TV deal and people are already calling me and saying,
00:24:05.326 --> 00:24:08.616
oh, we have this washed up comedian who's going to do his own show and you're
00:24:08.616 --> 00:24:11.326
the perfect person to write it for him or, oh, I have
00:24:11.346 --> 00:24:17.746
a great idea about this guy who dies and is reincarnated as a dog and he gets adopted by his ex wife.
00:24:17.756 --> 00:24:20.266
And I thought I can't go back to that sitcom World.
00:24:20.276 --> 00:24:24.356
I gave it a shot but it's not where I want to be. So I wrote the pilot on spec,
00:24:24.366 --> 00:24:27.926
which is no one asking him to write the pilot. He just did it for free.
00:24:28.076 --> 00:24:32.626
And I had my agent sent it over to HBO. Hey, you know that show we talked about,
00:24:32.626 --> 00:24:34.746
well, here's a version of it that I just wrote.
00:24:34.786 --> 00:24:40.556
Fun fact. However, there was a copyright infringement suit because Alan Ball
00:24:40.556 --> 00:24:45.106
stated at one point that he came up with the premise of the show after the death,
00:24:45.116 --> 00:24:48.876
the death of his sister and his father, his sister died when he was 13.
00:24:48.876 --> 00:24:51.216
So we're talking long after the death of his sister.
00:24:51.226 --> 00:24:57.166
However, in an interview on the series DVD collection, he into HBO.
00:24:57.166 --> 00:25:00.106
President Carolyn Strauss proposed the idea to him.
00:25:00.116 --> 00:25:04.176
And in that 2015 article for Rolling Stone, he just came out and said it,
00:25:04.176 --> 00:25:06.766
Carolyn Strauss asked me to write this thing.
00:25:06.816 --> 00:25:12.386
But screenwriter Glenn o'donnell asserted that she was the original source of
00:25:12.386 --> 00:25:18.836
the idea and she passed it to Strauss and Strauss passed it to Alan Ball and
00:25:18.836 --> 00:25:20.936
Ball had no knowledge of this, of course.
00:25:21.016 --> 00:25:24.846
But the U S Court of Appeals Ninth Circuit proceeding on the assumption that
00:25:24.846 --> 00:25:26.256
this assertion was true,
00:25:26.276 --> 00:25:31.466
rejected her claim, the assertion that he had written it about his sister and
00:25:31.466 --> 00:25:36.106
his father, which he never repeats like I couldn't find the interview.
00:25:36.106 --> 00:25:42.446
So this is kind of an interesting, maybe he got some blowback coming up.
00:25:42.646 --> 00:25:47.256
I didn't know any of that. Yeah. But back to Rolling Stone after and back to
00:25:47.256 --> 00:25:51.186
Alan Ball after they read it, they invited me in and I went in and met with
00:25:51.206 --> 00:25:55.036
Carolyn and Chris Albrecht who is running HBO at the time and they said we really
00:25:55.036 --> 00:25:57.676
like this, but we have a main note for the whole thing.
00:25:57.686 --> 00:26:01.346
It feels kind of safe. Could you make it more fucked up?
00:26:01.346 --> 00:26:05.896
He likes to read Alan Ball has retold that anecdote many times because there
00:26:05.896 --> 00:26:12.876
have been many oral histories of six ft under and elements to the show since it came out.
00:26:12.886 --> 00:26:18.916
And that's, and every time I see that, can you make it more fucked up like that? That lives on.
00:26:19.470 --> 00:26:24.940
He goes into great detail about talking about like the pilot penis and the network
00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:27.530
iness of the show where, you know, it's this,
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:31.540
this prodigal son returning and we have a son that runs the home and runs it
00:26:31.540 --> 00:26:34.640
very well and, and delights and kind of order.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.770
So we have Order Meets K Yes. And they don't want to be running this thing together
00:26:37.780 --> 00:26:40.120
and like what a wacky sitcom idea.
00:26:40.130 --> 00:26:45.670
And so I have to imagine especially coming directly from ABC and coming from
00:26:45.670 --> 00:26:51.740
a sitcom world that the original pilot was like very much in that kind of comedic.
00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:58.620
Yeah, like um buddy calm, like kind of an odd couple, sort of kind of things.
00:26:58.620 --> 00:27:03.460
Yeah, I didn't know that either. And so the whole time, like in my timeline
00:27:03.460 --> 00:27:07.630
of things, I can see how like, oh Island Ball comes from.
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:12.390
Um He wrote the screenplay for, as you mentioned earlier, American Beauty.
00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:17.500
American Beauty. Yeah, which is which the two programs like once a show,
00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:22.300
once a movie, but they both kind of operate in like a similar, like family.
00:27:22.310 --> 00:27:27.380
Yeah, like how everything looks on the surface versus what it's like underneath.
00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:32.300
And I don't blame Alan Ball for playing it safe on TV.
00:27:32.300 --> 00:27:37.400
Because at this point there are two TV shows that are doing things cinematically.
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.940
They're, they're like tackling really deep, hard issues and allowing characters
00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:45.250
to be, like, fun and messy. And so there's not a lot of precedents.
00:27:45.260 --> 00:27:51.850
Exactly. And so, so I think it's like a really a good confluence of events and
00:27:51.850 --> 00:27:55.290
like, luck that, like, American beauty was such a huge hit.
00:27:55.300 --> 00:27:57.240
That movie couldn't get made today.
00:27:57.530 --> 00:28:03.240
Um for several reasons. Um And they're like, well, just like you're a TV guy,
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.390
take what you've done in the movies and turn it into TV.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.320
Um Fun fact.
00:28:08.330 --> 00:28:12.340
This is a quote from Alan Ball. I don't really write characters with specific actors in mind.
00:28:12.340 --> 00:28:16.030
But once I considered casting after the script was finished,
00:28:16.040 --> 00:28:20.320
I was thinking about Christopher Meloni and Justin Thoreau as being the two
00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:24.030
brothers, Nate and David because I thought they looked like siblings and they're
00:28:24.030 --> 00:28:25.775
both two actors who really admired.
00:28:25.775 --> 00:28:30.535
And Chris was on Oz on HBO at the time. So he was already in the family.
00:28:30.655 --> 00:28:33.775
But Chris got the S V U thing before we went into production.
00:28:33.985 --> 00:28:39.355
So we narrowly missed out on an alternate universe where Christopher Meloni played Nate.
00:28:39.445 --> 00:28:43.375
There is actually one episode in the show where they explore an alternate universe.
00:28:43.703 --> 00:28:49.633
Is that right? Yes. Well, um Peter Carozza still plays himself,
00:28:49.643 --> 00:28:52.713
but it's like this alternate universe dream sequence
00:28:52.993 --> 00:28:57.593
where um he's like, I think, I think he's still technically comatose because
00:28:57.593 --> 00:29:00.323
his character has, has a.
00:29:01.073 --> 00:29:03.073
He has a VM.
00:29:03.083 --> 00:29:07.478
Um Yeah, he, he kind of like goes through these different, like dream sequences
00:29:07.478 --> 00:29:11.668
where he's, you know, in living like 10 different kinds of lives.
00:29:11.678 --> 00:29:18.778
So on Peter Krause, Peter Krause plays Nate Fisher and this speaks to like how I came to the show.
00:29:18.788 --> 00:29:22.368
So I was a big fan of Peter Krause from a show called Sports Night,
00:29:22.378 --> 00:29:26.413
which was an Aaron Sorkin show on ABC pre West Wing.
00:29:26.683 --> 00:29:32.343
So this is Cross in um in Entertainment Weekly. He said I had done two seasons
00:29:32.343 --> 00:29:36.273
of Sports Night and I was disappointed that it didn't get picked up for a third season.
00:29:36.283 --> 00:29:40.443
Only about a month and a half went by before I was auditioning for six ft under
00:29:40.453 --> 00:29:45.458
Allen brought me in to read for both Nate and David and I couldn't and he couldn't
00:29:45.458 --> 00:29:47.118
make up his mind and his luck had it.
00:29:47.128 --> 00:29:50.228
He really liked Michael Hall who was the perfect choice for David.
00:29:50.238 --> 00:29:52.738
So the character of Nate swung my way.
00:29:52.748 --> 00:29:55.188
But this story is a lie.
00:29:55.258 --> 00:30:01.038
This is not the real story I remember watching.
00:30:01.038 --> 00:30:05.208
So I remember the reason that I started watching six ft Under in the first place
00:30:05.218 --> 00:30:11.643
was I was home sick from school one day and I was watching the View and do as one.
00:30:12.923 --> 00:30:17.593
And cross A was on the view talking about.
00:30:18.029 --> 00:30:22.849
Starting six ft under. And he said, I looked for the clip but I couldn't find
00:30:22.849 --> 00:30:27.709
it. He said that sports night had not been canceled yet and he was secretly
00:30:27.709 --> 00:30:31.589
hoping that it got canceled because he really wanted to do six ft under.
00:30:31.739 --> 00:30:36.209
And I was like, how could you Casey McCall, how could you do?
00:30:36.219 --> 00:30:41.409
That is the exact reason that I saw that I started watching six ft under.
00:30:41.609 --> 00:30:45.259
That's amazing. What's kind of funny is that, you know, I don't know if you
00:30:45.259 --> 00:30:48.449
ever saw much parenthood, I did watch parenthood.
00:30:48.459 --> 00:30:55.349
So the whole reason why I started watching parenthood was on it and also because law relies on it.
00:30:55.369 --> 00:30:59.719
Lauren Graham, I've never seen a single episode of Gilmore Girls.
00:30:59.729 --> 00:31:03.289
I know I'm going to have a talk last episode. Yeah.
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:06.669
Okay. But I was going to say though that I think Peter Krause gave an interview.
00:31:06.669 --> 00:31:10.569
I don't have exact one pulled out, but I do remember him talking about how the
00:31:10.569 --> 00:31:16.109
whole reason he took, um, the role in parenthood was because it was so much,
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:21.039
it was just not dark, it was just so, it was just so the opposite of what his role in.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:25.379
I mean, his character in 1600 deals with, with such an immense amount of life
00:31:25.379 --> 00:31:31.229
change and grief without getting into specifics, accidentally takes ecstasy in one episode.
00:31:31.239 --> 00:31:34.699
That's actually one of my favorite episodes. It's his favorite episode. Two.
00:31:34.709 --> 00:31:39.759
Yeah. So now let's jump forward to the finale. Right? So now we've,
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.629
we've cast the show, we've created the show.
00:31:42.769 --> 00:31:48.939
So Alan Ball in 2004 calls HBO and he says, I'm done, I can't do another season
00:31:48.939 --> 00:31:50.029
after this upcoming one.
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:55.519
And they said, well, then we'll just end the show because it's really not uncommon
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:59.539
for showrunners to just leave shows and for networks to replace them.
00:31:59.549 --> 00:32:03.999
And so, and usually the show that happens, the show does take a noticeable decline in quality.
00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:09.229
Absolutely. The notable exception is veep which gets better after Armando Iannucci leaves.
00:32:09.569 --> 00:32:12.789
I have never really seen too much of it.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.679
It's a major blind spot for me and I don't, I'm not, I don't dislike Armando
00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:18.279
Iannucci. I love him in fact.
00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:21.299
But when David Mandel comes in, that's when the show really.
00:32:21.585 --> 00:32:25.935
That's great. So HBO says, well, then we'll just end the show.
00:32:25.945 --> 00:32:30.635
Oddly enough, I did the exact same thing on True Blood and they kept it running for two more seasons.
00:32:30.645 --> 00:32:35.475
I think it was because True Blood was generating a lot more money for them. six ft under dead.
00:32:35.925 --> 00:32:41.465
Yeah. True Blood came out around the time where vampires were just all like,
00:32:41.475 --> 00:32:46.245
but these, but unlike Twilight, these vampires had sex. Very graphic sex.
00:32:46.255 --> 00:32:50.875
I couldn't do true blood. I never, I watched like a half of an episode. I was like, I can't.
00:32:50.885 --> 00:32:56.175
The first three seasons it gets progressively were the first season is fire.
00:32:56.185 --> 00:33:00.215
The second, the second season I will defend.
00:33:00.225 --> 00:33:04.135
I really like it. The third season it starts to get camp and then everything
00:33:04.135 --> 00:33:09.585
past the third season, don't even don't, it's just complete track and it just
00:33:09.585 --> 00:33:11.365
gets progressively trashier.
00:33:11.375 --> 00:33:14.885
I have to imagine that Alan Ball did True blood for the same reason that Peter
00:33:14.885 --> 00:33:19.125
Krause did parenthood where it's like, oh, it's not about like death and morbidity
00:33:19.125 --> 00:33:21.385
and me confronting my mortality. Great.
00:33:21.395 --> 00:33:27.455
It's about morbidity. But in like a very, like, different, more fantastical, no one's ever really?
00:33:27.625 --> 00:33:31.635
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting though. I'd love to talk to him about that someday.
00:33:31.645 --> 00:33:34.155
Alan, if you're a friend of the show, if you're listening.
00:33:34.395 --> 00:33:39.215
Um, so Alan Ball's goes on to say, I think when you've done 60 episodes and
00:33:39.215 --> 00:33:43.285
you told 60 hours worth of story, every show has a shelf life and a lot of them
00:33:43.285 --> 00:33:48.195
go on way past their shelf life and that decision I believe is always financial.
00:33:48.195 --> 00:33:51.065
It just felt like I don't know what else we can do with these characters.
00:33:51.075 --> 00:33:54.725
And I'd like to work on something new and I'd like to have something that has
00:33:54.725 --> 00:33:57.035
a different tone. I don't want to just repeat myself.
00:33:57.045 --> 00:33:59.685
What do you learn if you do that? You just get really lazy.
00:34:00.069 --> 00:34:05.739
So when I convened Allen, still, when I convened with the writers for that last
00:34:05.739 --> 00:34:10.229
season, because we all knew it was the end, we had to know where everyone was
00:34:10.229 --> 00:34:13.479
going and someone in the room said we should just kill everybody.
00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:18.449
And I was like, that's funny, whatever. And I wish I could remember who it was because it wasn't me.
00:34:18.459 --> 00:34:24.279
But they said, no, no, no, we should be with each character at the moment of their death.
00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:28.299
And when I heard that I was like, well, of course, I mean, what else can you do?
00:34:28.429 --> 00:34:31.639
That's the perfect organic ending for the show. So,
00:34:31.664 --> 00:34:35.614
so we haven't mentioned that the beginning, the gimmick at the beginning of
00:34:35.614 --> 00:34:38.934
every episode of the show was a cold open where you saw someone's death,
00:34:38.934 --> 00:34:43.494
starting with Nathaniel Sr in the pilot, played by Richard Jenkins and continuing
00:34:43.494 --> 00:34:45.514
on to the beginning of each episode.
00:34:45.524 --> 00:34:47.994
You'd see the death of the week fade to white.
00:34:48.004 --> 00:34:53.454
And then the title and the title was also like the name of the person that died
00:34:53.454 --> 00:34:56.679
in like the year that they were born to the year like their headstone.
00:34:56.829 --> 00:35:01.939
So when it came to the finale of 6ft under the show's creator and this person
00:35:01.939 --> 00:35:04.529
in the writer's room that he cannot remember.
00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:09.059
Subverted the closed loop that he had set up in the pilot of the show and every
00:35:09.059 --> 00:35:14.239
episode after so that we see all the characters that we love and their organic,
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:18.539
perfect, their organic, perfect ending of their, of their lives.
00:35:18.549 --> 00:35:23.059
So from the cast, do you want to, let's do some dramatic readings.
00:35:23.059 --> 00:35:24.529
You wanna be Frances Conroy?
00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:28.819
Oh, yes, I love her. I met her once. Tell you about that. She's one of my first
00:35:28.819 --> 00:35:32.189
celebrity sightings in Los Angeles. I would, I really freaked out.
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:36.569
I only know her as Ruth Fisher. I've seen her in eight million.
00:35:36.809 --> 00:35:41.829
I'm like, oh, it's Ruth Fisher. Yeah, because she was so immortal in that role. Yeah. Incredible.
00:35:41.939 --> 00:35:46.229
So, this is Frances Conroy. When I got the final script, I just started crying.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:51.909
It was a very rarefied piece of writing that Alan did. It was just so extraordinary and delicate.
00:35:52.229 --> 00:35:59.049
And I would say that her moment, like with the moment that she passes in,
00:35:59.049 --> 00:36:00.869
this is when I also start crying.
00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:07.109
Richard Jenkins says, can you imagine not doing that if someone had not figured
00:36:07.109 --> 00:36:11.609
that out or that thought hadn't occurred to somebody? It is the perfect way to end it.
00:36:12.319 --> 00:36:15.469
This is Michael C Hall. I'll be Michael C Hall. Yeah, of course,
00:36:15.499 --> 00:36:20.329
we were all working very hard and the script for the next episode comes while
00:36:20.329 --> 00:36:24.009
you're shooting the previous one, it was the same with the finale script.
00:36:24.019 --> 00:36:28.029
But when I read it, I thought as I think the audience did when they saw it.
00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:33.579
Of course, I've never seen something so simultaneously surprising and satisfyingly
00:36:33.579 --> 00:36:35.519
obvious as the way that show ended.
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:40.509
And once that first card comes up, you're just there as the waves continue to crash over you.
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:44.989
Freddy Rodriguez says I have never seen anything like that and never read anything like that.
00:36:44.999 --> 00:36:48.999
I've never been a part of anything that ended that way and I felt that it was
00:36:48.999 --> 00:36:53.129
a proposed what the show meant to me and what it did for television.
00:36:53.189 --> 00:36:56.559
It didn't surprise us that Alan came up with something like that because he
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:58.629
didn't because he's Alan.
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:05.179
But then to see it come out and see people's reactions to it even 10 years later is really gratifying.
00:37:05.678 --> 00:37:10.128
So in the finale of the, of the series, we see all of our characters flash forwards
00:37:10.138 --> 00:37:14.318
to their own deaths in the future with the show's trademark fade to white all
00:37:14.318 --> 00:37:16.768
over the sea. A song that we've been talking about today.
00:37:16.938 --> 00:37:21.668
Rolling Stone called it one of the most finely executed hours of television
00:37:21.678 --> 00:37:27.048
and a fitting send off for a series that found beauty in life's most tragic moments.
00:37:27.248 --> 00:37:29.728
The final episode alone was nominate.
00:37:30.493 --> 00:37:31.803
Amazing.
00:37:32.603 --> 00:37:38.493
And if we have a minute, I want to talk a little bit about how music was overlaid
00:37:38.503 --> 00:37:42.393
on the show and just the general use of music. Absolutely not.
00:37:42.403 --> 00:37:46.863
Alright. Well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do it. I was going to steamroll over you.
00:37:46.873 --> 00:37:53.013
So, you know, from the very beginning, music was a creative component in the making of this show.
00:37:53.023 --> 00:37:55.938
I think something that I really loved about this show is just,
00:37:55.948 --> 00:38:00.458
it was really keen on both like I had diverse set
00:38:00.468 --> 00:38:06.128
of like genres and time periods and it would play like you're like super well
00:38:06.128 --> 00:38:11.168
known hits like by Radiohead or something and they would delve into much newer
00:38:11.168 --> 00:38:14.998
like college rocky bands like there's a very famous scene on the show where
00:38:15.008 --> 00:38:17.858
they use Death Cab for cuties.
00:38:17.873 --> 00:38:22.463
I need you so much closer. Transatlantic schism.
00:38:22.473 --> 00:38:27.773
Trans Atlantis is um and the whole group is just singing the,
00:38:27.773 --> 00:38:30.743
you know, the main line from that song. And that was a very new song then.
00:38:30.753 --> 00:38:37.483
So lots of up and coming bands particularly acts on noncommercial radio did
00:38:37.483 --> 00:38:41.933
get placements on six ft under like an early career arcade fire.
00:38:42.088 --> 00:38:47.758
The Dandy Warhols, one of my old favorites from the early oh black rebel motorcycle
00:38:47.758 --> 00:38:53.798
club, Phoenix Interpol, Imogen Heap, the aforementioned Death Cab.
00:38:53.808 --> 00:38:57.718
Then on the sort of higher profile and.
00:38:58.098 --> 00:39:03.448
You had Radiohead Coldplay, Joni Mitchell, PJ Harvey,
00:39:03.458 --> 00:39:08.288
Nina Simone, there was a real eclectic mix of genres across the decades and
00:39:08.288 --> 00:39:16.748
that's actually more to, to reuse or to use a really, really popular song is, in my opinion.
00:39:17.246 --> 00:39:22.276
Far more difficult than to, than to find something that no one knows about.
00:39:22.286 --> 00:39:27.056
Because when you use a really, really popular song in a, in a project,
00:39:27.066 --> 00:39:30.206
everyone associates it with the last time that they heard it right.
00:39:30.216 --> 00:39:36.486
It is very easy for the audience to lose focus and think about their relationship
00:39:36.486 --> 00:39:38.626
with that song from before.
00:39:38.636 --> 00:39:45.486
And so you have to have a real talent and real placement skill to get people
00:39:45.486 --> 00:39:49.846
to not lose focus and to keep paying attention to the scene,
00:39:49.956 --> 00:39:53.296
even though they're, you're using a song is very, very familiar.
00:39:53.306 --> 00:39:59.006
Music is just like, used to really, like, delve into each character's histories,
00:39:59.116 --> 00:40:03.836
their motivations and even off screen characters.
00:40:03.836 --> 00:40:06.776
Like, like we were saying before, like Richard Jenkins character,
00:40:06.776 --> 00:40:09.846
the family patriarch dies in the first episode
00:40:10.026 --> 00:40:15.296
and you kind of get the sense that um everyone's kind of playing catch up with him, like, like
00:40:15.306 --> 00:40:20.416
now that he's gone, did any of us ever really know him because they keep like
00:40:20.426 --> 00:40:27.576
discovering uh evidence in his life that it just kind of goes unexplained about like.
00:40:27.766 --> 00:40:33.066
Nate having just come home um to sort of take over the family business discovers
00:40:33.066 --> 00:40:39.366
that his father used to, he bartered uh an empty room above an Indian restaurant
00:40:39.376 --> 00:40:41.396
as a form of payment for a funeral.
00:40:41.406 --> 00:40:46.536
And this and so he would just use this kind of, yeah, but, but it's like the
00:40:46.536 --> 00:40:50.386
whole mystery is what did he use this room for? Why did he need this room?
00:40:50.396 --> 00:40:56.776
And Nate finds a stack of records in that room and then puts on the Amboy Dukes
00:40:56.776 --> 00:40:59.066
is a journey to the center of the mind.
00:40:59.376 --> 00:41:04.246
And then while that song is playing Nate, like kind of goes through a like a
00:41:04.246 --> 00:41:08.386
bunch of visualizations of scenarios of what on earth his father could be.
00:41:08.386 --> 00:41:11.756
It could have been up to and like what necessitated the need for this room.
00:41:11.766 --> 00:41:16.146
Yeah, I mean, music, character specific music at its best just feels like part
00:41:16.146 --> 00:41:18.596
of the costume, part of the wardrobe, right?
00:41:18.606 --> 00:41:25.316
And I think a big theme for this episode and a big theme for six ft Under is well, of course, right?
00:41:25.326 --> 00:41:28.646
Of course, this is how we have to end the series. Of course,
00:41:28.656 --> 00:41:33.316
Rachel Griffiths is dancing around two P J Harvey and in her
00:41:33.326 --> 00:41:39.026
apartment in her house because like that feels so grooved into her character
00:41:39.026 --> 00:41:41.156
and like notched into who
00:41:41.186 --> 00:41:45.196
the D N A of the character and the D N A of the show that it is,
00:41:45.196 --> 00:41:48.236
that is a very, very difficult thing to pull off that
00:41:48.316 --> 00:41:51.886
every single character has that like of course, they listen to this moment
00:41:52.066 --> 00:41:56.056
and you've got Claire Fisher, the youngest daughter of she, I think you meet her.
00:41:56.056 --> 00:42:00.616
She's in high school and then she moves over into college, which is art school
00:42:00.626 --> 00:42:04.756
because her character is an artist and she mostly listens to like Death Cab
00:42:04.756 --> 00:42:08.366
for Cutie and whatever other indie rock artist was popping at the time.
00:42:08.376 --> 00:42:14.406
But on Claire, this was, this was my, this was my big secret for you. So, do you know?
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:18.699
Why the show ends with Claire's perspective.
00:42:18.709 --> 00:42:23.679
I think I've read interviews that illuminate why?
00:42:23.689 --> 00:42:28.469
But I'm just going to tell you because it's sort of like a passing of the torch, right?
00:42:28.479 --> 00:42:35.439
It is. But Claire is according to Alan Ball, the P O V of the show,
00:42:35.439 --> 00:42:42.659
even though Nate is the main character, he, he Alan Ball created Claire to be a proxy for himself.
00:42:42.669 --> 00:42:50.149
He was the youngest sibling in his family and he, his personality and his likes
00:42:50.149 --> 00:42:54.999
and dislikes and prejudices instead and whatever else came out through Claire.
00:42:54.999 --> 00:43:03.729
So uh your final scene in this series has the version of its creator by its creator
00:43:03.879 --> 00:43:10.629
driving away and kind of saying goodbye to all of the characters that she, he has created.
00:43:10.689 --> 00:43:16.009
I love that. I did not actually know that we're going to take a quick break
00:43:16.009 --> 00:43:18.639
and you might hear a couple of ads after the break.
00:43:18.649 --> 00:43:22.149
You'll hear our conversation with Gary Kalmar and Thomas Gilovich.
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:31.760
Music.
00:43:34.699 --> 00:43:39.439
My name is Gary Callum. Are I am a music supervisor, Thomas Gilovich.
00:43:39.449 --> 00:43:44.399
I'm a music supervisor, been a music freak since I saw the Beatles on the Ed
00:43:44.399 --> 00:43:48.959
Sullivan show at my grandparents house in the Bronx in 1964.
00:43:48.959 --> 00:43:50.599
And then never looked back.
00:43:50.909 --> 00:43:56.969
I've worked at record stores. I've managed bands. I'm a radio DJ still.
00:43:56.979 --> 00:44:01.529
But my main job, my day job is as music supervisor and I've worked on,
00:44:01.659 --> 00:44:04.979
of course, six ft Under with Thomas and.
00:44:05.427 --> 00:44:11.837
House Dexter Weeds. Um The man in the High Castle, I worked with Gary Callum
00:44:11.837 --> 00:44:16.277
are on six ft under. And since then, that was early in our careers.
00:44:16.277 --> 00:44:18.897
I was also at KCRW was a DJ there at the time.
00:44:18.907 --> 00:44:22.107
And I've worked on a number of different projects over the years,
00:44:22.107 --> 00:44:28.117
including breaking bad and better call Saul Show called Halt and Catch Fire
00:44:28.127 --> 00:44:29.847
Show called Ray Donovan.
00:44:29.857 --> 00:44:34.877
I worked on a show called Sneaky Pete, The Walking Dead, which was an AMC series.
00:44:35.067 --> 00:44:39.147
I'm currently working on Oh my goodness, Poker Face, which is a new series with
00:44:39.147 --> 00:44:41.727
Ryan Johnson and Natasha Leone.
00:44:41.737 --> 00:44:45.447
Lots of very different projects right now. A couple of real under achievers here.
00:44:46.077 --> 00:44:49.457
Um Well, it's a real pleasure to have you guys on.
00:44:49.467 --> 00:44:54.797
I've probably already talked Gary's ear off too many times about what a six ft Under fan.
00:44:54.797 --> 00:45:00.047
I am. So, um it's wonderful to have you guys on the inaugural episode of In
00:45:00.047 --> 00:45:08.507
Sync With Love to talk to you a bit about how you first became aware of the series six ft Under.
00:45:08.517 --> 00:45:13.667
I heard about it first, I worked on one of my very first projects was an indie
00:45:13.667 --> 00:45:16.097
film called Shadow Hours.
00:45:16.107 --> 00:45:19.607
And I worked on that project and it was, it was a mess. Essentially,
00:45:19.607 --> 00:45:21.417
the director and the producer got into a fight.
00:45:21.417 --> 00:45:25.987
One was financing it. One was building it and they stopped talking to each other
00:45:26.397 --> 00:45:31.627
and they sent me in with a new set of editors to completely change the entire sound of the show.
00:45:31.637 --> 00:45:36.607
And it was a mess. Um We got it done and then the film got picked up at Sundance.
00:45:36.607 --> 00:45:40.477
Gary had a film as well at Sundance. We both had independent movies at Sundance
00:45:40.477 --> 00:45:41.807
that year, which was super fun.
00:45:41.817 --> 00:45:47.457
Um And that assistant editor reached out and told me about a project for HBO,
00:45:47.467 --> 00:45:52.227
a pilot um and said you should read the script or see if you can get involved.
00:45:52.457 --> 00:45:55.827
So I reached out to Laurie Joan M Houser, who was the post production producer
00:45:55.827 --> 00:45:59.407
at the time and just said, I'd love to get a chance to look at it and she was
00:45:59.407 --> 00:46:03.287
very skeptical because I didn't have any credits at the time. And really, I'd like to.
00:46:03.816 --> 00:46:08.336
And uh I kept on cajoling. And finally, she said, well, I'll send you a script
00:46:08.336 --> 00:46:11.646
and you can let us know we have a problem. We've got too much expensive music
00:46:11.646 --> 00:46:15.596
and we don't quite know how to afford it and would love your creative ideas.
00:46:15.606 --> 00:46:19.166
Um And that started the whole process where Gary and I realized we could probably
00:46:19.166 --> 00:46:22.356
do the project better together than apart.
00:46:22.366 --> 00:46:27.156
So it was an opportunity for us to work together. And I think we both had experience,
00:46:27.156 --> 00:46:30.606
I think Gary had more experience than I did at the time, but it seemed like
00:46:30.606 --> 00:46:32.296
it would be a better project to do together.
00:46:32.296 --> 00:46:36.036
So when we got hired, we basically dove into the project together from the first
00:46:36.036 --> 00:46:42.446
episode on, I know that you probably saw the overall like log line and what
00:46:42.456 --> 00:46:44.136
the show would be about ostensibly.
00:46:44.136 --> 00:46:49.146
But did you go into it with any ideas of the type of music you'd want to select
00:46:49.146 --> 00:46:54.676
and like any, any philosophy for how you want to select music for this series
00:46:54.676 --> 00:46:57.896
that perhaps differed from previous work, you've done?
00:46:58.066 --> 00:47:01.786
One of the things that was really clear was it was a family story,
00:47:01.796 --> 00:47:05.326
which meant that we had different characters in that family that we got a chance
00:47:05.326 --> 00:47:09.886
to kind of sketch out what kind of music they would listen to and Gary can cover this as well.
00:47:09.886 --> 00:47:13.326
But I think we had a lot of fun in figuring out what would Nate listen to and
00:47:13.326 --> 00:47:14.996
what would day David listened to?
00:47:15.046 --> 00:47:18.536
David was closeted gay in the first episode. And it was like,
00:47:18.546 --> 00:47:22.106
interesting to figure out like, where would his music taste be and what would
00:47:22.106 --> 00:47:27.156
happen if he got into a relationship and he was able to open up more and, and where would he land?
00:47:27.166 --> 00:47:30.366
And Claire was sort of an angry teenager. And we thought, well,
00:47:30.366 --> 00:47:31.906
where would she evolve into?
00:47:31.906 --> 00:47:35.686
And we thought a lot about Ruth and sort of like the idea of like,
00:47:35.696 --> 00:47:39.076
what was Ruth's private life, like, what did she want?
00:47:39.076 --> 00:47:43.066
And we had this idea at some point along the lines that she loved the idea of being a dancer.
00:47:43.066 --> 00:47:46.216
And she liked the idea of having like ballerina type music. There was a dainty
00:47:46.216 --> 00:47:50.166
nous to it. So I think we had lots of interesting ideas of the characters and
00:47:50.166 --> 00:47:54.276
what they would listen to and we just kind of played those ideas against each other.
00:47:54.356 --> 00:47:57.536
And I think we all just kind of learned as we went along. Even Alan Ball and
00:47:57.536 --> 00:48:01.426
Alan Pool, you know, we're not, I mean, Allyn ball, I don't think was all that
00:48:01.426 --> 00:48:03.186
experienced as a showrunner.
00:48:03.836 --> 00:48:07.256
I think we did have some initial ideas like Thomas said and we did put together
00:48:07.256 --> 00:48:09.176
playlists for the different characters.
00:48:09.186 --> 00:48:13.406
Nathaniel turned out to be a Peggy Lee fan, although in a secret life,
00:48:13.406 --> 00:48:14.906
he was also a Ted Nugent fan.
00:48:14.916 --> 00:48:20.316
Of course, we needed classical music for the funerals and Nate and everybody.
00:48:20.326 --> 00:48:25.086
Brenda turned out to be a KCRW fan, which was right in our wheelhouse because
00:48:25.086 --> 00:48:27.006
we both worked at KCRW at the time.
00:48:27.496 --> 00:48:31.006
Um but I think it was just sort of a learning experience, you know,
00:48:31.006 --> 00:48:34.626
from episode one, you know, it just all sort of developed, you know,
00:48:34.626 --> 00:48:36.476
for, for all of us musically.
00:48:36.476 --> 00:48:40.816
And otherwise I think another thing which was really fun was we had the teasers
00:48:40.826 --> 00:48:45.326
which were kind of like the death of a character that would lead us in.
00:48:45.336 --> 00:48:48.866
And I think that led us to some really fun adventures with music,
00:48:48.866 --> 00:48:55.036
music as counterpoint or allowing mixtures of comedy and horror and being very
00:48:55.036 --> 00:48:57.896
genuine in some situations and being a little bit ironic and others.
00:48:57.896 --> 00:49:01.196
And that was I think a fun learning experience for us that was kind of built
00:49:01.196 --> 00:49:05.426
into the premise of the show, you mentioned a little bit about providing a sound
00:49:05.426 --> 00:49:07.226
track or playlist for each character.
00:49:07.226 --> 00:49:10.166
Did you divide the character? Like, did
00:49:10.176 --> 00:49:14.576
Gary, did you take, you know, Brenda and Frances Conroy and,
00:49:14.586 --> 00:49:19.726
and Thomas, you took Nate and David or, or is it something that you collaborated
00:49:19.736 --> 00:49:22.256
with each other on every playlist?
00:49:22.616 --> 00:49:27.186
We pretty much collaborated together on every playlist, you know. Yeah.
00:49:27.206 --> 00:49:33.396
In those days we were very, very close working wise and, yeah,
00:49:33.396 --> 00:49:39.876
I mean, we would go over everything so wistfully but we would, you know, overdo it.
00:49:39.876 --> 00:49:43.596
I mean, we would work with our music editor who we drove crazy and we would,
00:49:43.596 --> 00:49:48.256
like, cut in all of these songs prior to playing them for Alan Ball and Alan Poul.
00:49:48.647 --> 00:49:53.297
And I won't say we were taking advantage of him. We all were just learning how
00:49:53.297 --> 00:49:57.837
to the process, but I don't think either of us do it that way these days.
00:49:57.847 --> 00:50:02.167
I know, I don't think we have different sensibilities, but we're also friends
00:50:02.167 --> 00:50:06.927
and I really respect and admire Gary. So a lot of times when he would jettison
00:50:06.927 --> 00:50:12.257
an idea that I was really excited about, I would make me think about whether he was right after all.
00:50:12.267 --> 00:50:15.167
You know, and I think that there's something very valuable about being able
00:50:15.167 --> 00:50:19.047
to, you know, just sort of be excited about an idea and then realize it's not
00:50:19.047 --> 00:50:22.257
a good idea and having someone to bounce those ideas off is really helpful.
00:50:22.267 --> 00:50:26.507
I think it's, it's one of those things that I like working with the team always
00:50:26.507 --> 00:50:29.327
simply because I think it's really helpful to get feedback and.
00:50:29.827 --> 00:50:32.047
You know, we're all trying to do the best job possible.
00:50:32.057 --> 00:50:36.687
You also mentioned a little bit, there's a little bit of a sense of figuring it out as you went along.
00:50:36.687 --> 00:50:42.007
I'm wondering how much of the music was influenced by the actors and their performances
00:50:42.007 --> 00:50:47.157
specifically, you mentioned that Frances Conroy's character Ruth had this kind
00:50:47.157 --> 00:50:50.657
of lilting ballerina sort of music that was associated with her.
00:50:50.667 --> 00:50:54.957
And to me that just is a reflection of like the way she speaks, right?
00:50:54.967 --> 00:51:00.407
Like that, her character's voices, that kind of lilting flowery cadence.
00:51:00.407 --> 00:51:05.887
I'm wondering if that's something that was informed by her performance or something
00:51:05.887 --> 00:51:10.077
that you came up with organically or like kind of in parallel with her performance,
00:51:10.087 --> 00:51:12.087
I would say informed by the performances.
00:51:12.087 --> 00:51:17.137
I mean, I think one of the really fun parts of music supervision for me is getting
00:51:17.137 --> 00:51:20.897
to know and falling in love with the characters over the course of time when
00:51:20.897 --> 00:51:25.247
you're doing a film, it's a much more strategic thing and you kind of go in there with an idea,
00:51:25.262 --> 00:51:27.842
idea of what you want to build.
00:51:27.842 --> 00:51:31.912
It's almost like a philosophy that you're setting up. I think the cinematographers go through that.
00:51:31.922 --> 00:51:35.342
I think, you know, I think the casting people do as well. It's like you say,
00:51:35.342 --> 00:51:39.932
I'm going after a certain type of actor or I'm looking for certain types of
00:51:39.932 --> 00:51:43.632
shots or I want the camera to be pulled back a little further.
00:51:43.632 --> 00:51:47.212
I don't want people in the frame completely and there's a certain experience
00:51:47.212 --> 00:51:51.392
you get with that we work the same way and a lot of it really is off of the.
00:51:51.707 --> 00:51:53.877
Actors and their performances.
00:51:54.187 --> 00:51:57.447
You know, I'm thinking about breaking bad. Like I know when I was working on
00:51:57.447 --> 00:51:59.507
that early on, like how we?
00:51:59.972 --> 00:52:04.532
Dealt with Aaron Paul's character, Jesse was really very much like
00:52:04.542 --> 00:52:08.212
we had some ideas, we tried those ideas out and then as we got to know him more,
00:52:08.222 --> 00:52:12.132
we were able to shift with him and with those ideas, and I think that that was
00:52:12.132 --> 00:52:17.012
sort of a valuable part if we hadn't paid attention to his performance and how unique he was.
00:52:17.012 --> 00:52:21.262
And the same applies. I think to Frances Conroy who is an incredible actress,
00:52:21.262 --> 00:52:24.262
we had access to the dailies at some point and I remember just
00:52:24.272 --> 00:52:28.472
watching her different takes and seeing what the actress is thinking about and
00:52:28.472 --> 00:52:32.962
how she's delivering different options for her other actress and for editorial to choose from
00:52:33.242 --> 00:52:38.522
it informed thing for us that there are smart ways of thinking about how you
00:52:38.522 --> 00:52:40.522
can help to inform that moment
00:52:40.532 --> 00:52:45.022
with something that captures something that may be in the subtext of the scene
00:52:45.032 --> 00:52:50.372
that the actor clued in on and that we can kind of help bring out a little further
00:52:50.382 --> 00:52:53.312
the song that plays over the final.
00:52:53.332 --> 00:52:57.112
I mean, it's, you know, I feel like it's been talked about many times because
00:52:57.112 --> 00:53:04.232
it is so well known at this point that gets, you know, I believe it was in an entire subject of.
00:53:04.602 --> 00:53:08.242
An oral history on Vulture, which I really enjoyed reading and I appreciate
00:53:08.242 --> 00:53:13.422
you guys sitting down with us to talk about it again because it is just that game changing.
00:53:13.682 --> 00:53:17.012
I feel like for the art of music supervision itself.
00:53:17.022 --> 00:53:24.152
Um But kind of going back to the beginning. Um when you guys first kind of realized
00:53:24.152 --> 00:53:26.422
like how this series would end.
00:53:26.612 --> 00:53:31.662
Did you like to, what extent did you sit down with Alan Ball before picking
00:53:31.662 --> 00:53:35.392
this song and putting it out there as I recall?
00:53:35.392 --> 00:53:40.122
Well, first of all, I was reminded that we actually introduced that song in
00:53:40.122 --> 00:53:44.632
the fifth season promo teaser promo before the season aired.
00:53:44.642 --> 00:53:47.982
So, and it worked very nicely in the promo.
00:53:47.992 --> 00:53:50.872
Although we had no idea that we would bring it back. I mean,
00:53:50.872 --> 00:53:56.212
we went through many other ideas as I recall and my memory is a little hazy,
00:53:56.212 --> 00:54:02.732
but I think Alan Ball just told me and told us that Claire was driving into the great unknown.
00:54:02.732 --> 00:54:05.922
I don't think he mentioned that unece initially about the deaths of all the
00:54:05.922 --> 00:54:10.702
characters. I think, you know, that kind of evolved in his mind and his writing.
00:54:10.712 --> 00:54:15.732
But I think it was just as I said, it was just Claire driving off to her new life.
00:54:15.742 --> 00:54:21.992
And I remember we did put together a nice cassette, a maybe at the time where
00:54:21.992 --> 00:54:24.572
CD burn CD of other choices.
00:54:24.582 --> 00:54:27.332
And there were some other strong ones as well.
00:54:28.123 --> 00:54:34.353
Ultimately, Alan Pick Breathe Me, which we are very thankful for because it worked so beautifully.
00:54:34.573 --> 00:54:38.403
And as I've said before, I think the stars were aligned. I mean,
00:54:38.403 --> 00:54:40.233
it was such a beloved show.
00:54:40.243 --> 00:54:45.613
It was such a great, beautiful written ending to the show and well executed.
00:54:46.063 --> 00:54:49.083
And you know, the song just, just work beautifully.
00:54:49.093 --> 00:54:52.823
Shout out to our editor at the time, Michael Rubio who cut it to make it work
00:54:52.823 --> 00:54:55.523
so beautifully and extend the original recording.
00:54:55.533 --> 00:54:58.943
And Bruno Roussel for the music editing, which was substantial.
00:54:58.953 --> 00:55:04.243
Do you recall with those other choices would have been name names?
00:55:04.253 --> 00:55:06.263
I don't recall.
00:55:06.283 --> 00:55:10.813
I wish I did, but I don't recall. But I'll tell you I did also,
00:55:10.813 --> 00:55:14.203
you know, I taught a class at U C L A extension of Music supervision class.
00:55:14.643 --> 00:55:19.393
And the final, one of the final projects was to put a new song into that scene.
00:55:19.603 --> 00:55:22.803
I'd love to take that challenge. Yes.
00:55:23.433 --> 00:55:26.713
Although none have worked quite as brilliantly as Sia's Breathe Me.
00:55:26.713 --> 00:55:31.373
But there were some other, you know, like I said, the canvas was beautifully
00:55:31.373 --> 00:55:35.893
laid out for, you know, a lot of different songs that, that could have worked really nicely.
00:55:36.063 --> 00:55:41.113
You know, this one turned out to be the best and somewhat historic but other
00:55:41.113 --> 00:55:42.283
songs worked in there as well.
00:55:42.293 --> 00:55:46.853
I think you, you mentioned once before, probably many times that you had found
00:55:46.853 --> 00:55:48.893
the song originally just from deejaying.
00:55:48.953 --> 00:55:52.963
Is that I remember that correctly. I think the song goes back to the,
00:55:52.973 --> 00:55:58.643
the 07 record in a way because 07 released a record, I forgot exactly what year.
00:55:58.643 --> 00:56:03.783
But around this time period and see a, was a guest vocalist on one of the tracks
00:56:03.783 --> 00:56:08.293
and we ended up putting the song distractions into the show and I don't remember what it was.
00:56:08.293 --> 00:56:11.503
Gary or myself, but one of us had reached out to her management who were in
00:56:11.503 --> 00:56:14.323
Australia and they sent a first record over.
00:56:15.268 --> 00:56:18.188
I certainly wasn't terribly impressed with. I was like, okay,
00:56:18.198 --> 00:56:21.368
you know, fine. And then they sent a second record which was color,
00:56:21.368 --> 00:56:23.368
the small one I think was the name of it.
00:56:23.378 --> 00:56:26.978
And I remember you and I both really liked it a lot and I think that we ended
00:56:26.978 --> 00:56:32.228
up pitching another song from that same record in the previous season and probably
00:56:32.228 --> 00:56:37.158
also pitched Breathe Me to the Allens in that time period.
00:56:37.158 --> 00:56:39.498
I think that's where the idea began to percolate.
00:56:39.508 --> 00:56:41.558
I'm vaguely tell me if I'm getting
00:56:41.558 --> 00:56:44.508
this wrong, but I feel like that might have been how it all evolved.
00:56:44.518 --> 00:56:49.418
I just know I had a love for that song Breathe Me and I was playing it on the
00:56:49.418 --> 00:56:53.948
radio and, you know, as with other songs for the show, I mean,
00:56:53.948 --> 00:56:58.268
it just sort of carried over when it was time to pitch ideas for that initial promo.
00:56:58.278 --> 00:57:02.028
And then for this final scene, you know, I thought this one could work.
00:57:02.038 --> 00:57:05.508
You know, I thought others could work as well. It's interesting because conventional
00:57:05.508 --> 00:57:09.978
wisdom would say, okay, you received the scene or you receive the scripted scene
00:57:09.988 --> 00:57:16.508
and you run through a million songs trying to find the one that is like the glass slipper, right?
00:57:16.518 --> 00:57:23.938
And it seems like you just were like looking for opportunities for this like
00:57:23.938 --> 00:57:29.718
magical collaboration of a song that you already had used and wanted to potentially use again.
00:57:29.728 --> 00:57:33.908
What was so special about this?
00:57:33.918 --> 00:57:38.998
What like what was the secret sauce of the song? Explain to us why no song has
00:57:38.998 --> 00:57:42.068
ever worked as well in the classes that you've taught.
00:57:42.078 --> 00:57:46.608
You know, it's hard to say what that magic is. I mean, it was just a beautiful
00:57:46.608 --> 00:57:48.898
song, beautifully recorded, great production.
00:57:48.908 --> 00:57:52.698
I think there's one part of the song that always kind of gets me a little choked
00:57:52.698 --> 00:57:57.998
up is when CSS be my friend and I think I forget who we see at that point,
00:57:58.008 --> 00:58:00.708
but I'm actually getting slightly choked up right now.
00:58:00.828 --> 00:58:04.108
But when she says, see my friend, it just sort of opened up and it's just.
00:58:04.402 --> 00:58:08.422
You know, it's funny when you put a simple lyric like that, see my friends to
00:58:08.422 --> 00:58:13.482
some beautiful music all of a sudden it becomes, you know, it takes it to another level.
00:58:13.492 --> 00:58:17.272
So at what point you said that you weren't quite aware that it was going to
00:58:17.272 --> 00:58:20.802
be the flash forward to the deaths.
00:58:20.812 --> 00:58:26.922
Did you, were you notified of that before you saw cut? Did you just see it for
00:58:26.922 --> 00:58:31.242
the first time in the cut? What was it like seeing that scene with that song
00:58:31.242 --> 00:58:33.992
placement for the first time when it all finally clicked together?
00:58:34.212 --> 00:58:38.082
I think we were honestly very nervous because number one, this is,
00:58:38.092 --> 00:58:42.072
this is a sequence which is working outside of the comfort zone of every department.
00:58:42.082 --> 00:58:47.042
Like we were not like, you know, doing futuristic costume design or, you know,
00:58:47.252 --> 00:58:50.972
like there was a lot of stuff that was way outside the comfort zone and the
00:58:50.972 --> 00:58:54.962
early versions of the sequence were really tricky and they looked rough and
00:58:54.962 --> 00:58:59.102
I think I was certainly feeling like, oh my God, we're gonna jump the shark on our final moment.
00:58:59.352 --> 00:59:03.072
Additionally, we had a song that was I'm guessing here in the timings,
00:59:03.072 --> 00:59:06.222
but I want to say like five minutes and 40 seconds in full length.
00:59:06.232 --> 00:59:11.332
And we had a sequence that was 5 20 it was 6 40 was the length of the sequence,
00:59:11.342 --> 00:59:15.062
which meant that we had to extend the song pretty dramatically.
00:59:15.062 --> 00:59:18.622
And I think one of the magical parts of it was the music editing.
00:59:18.622 --> 00:59:24.222
And again, shout out to Bruno Roussel who did a fantastic job of taking an unmasked
00:59:24.222 --> 00:59:29.872
erred instrumental with a mastered vocal version and somehow being able to match
00:59:29.872 --> 00:59:33.102
them. So we didn't notice that there were audio differences in it.
00:59:33.112 --> 00:59:36.812
So there's an enormous amount of technical work that went into all of it.
00:59:36.812 --> 00:59:40.492
And I think that's sort of a key part that's important to know about this job
00:59:40.492 --> 00:59:44.212
is that it's very collaborative, meaning every department has to kind of do
00:59:44.212 --> 00:59:46.082
their own bit of magic and
00:59:46.262 --> 00:59:50.132
it has to feel seamless, you know, and I think finally when the thing was done
00:59:50.132 --> 00:59:54.362
and all the visual effects were done and all of, you know, it was shot and edited
00:59:54.362 --> 00:59:57.842
in such a beautiful manner and the song was able to carry the whole sequence.
00:59:57.852 --> 01:00:02.622
It had a cumulative effect, but that was also masking an enormous amount of
01:00:02.622 --> 01:00:07.472
work that went into every department to try to make that thing work, you know, and I think.
01:00:07.850 --> 01:00:11.670
It could easily be laughable to see Keith climbing out of like some future,
01:00:11.670 --> 01:00:14.640
you know, armored truck, which was school hubcaps.
01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:17.830
You know, it's like it was an attempt to make things look, you know,
01:00:17.830 --> 01:00:22.810
futuristic and, you know, or even like, you know, Billy nodding off with Brenda,
01:00:22.810 --> 01:00:26.380
which I think I laughed the first time I looked at it because it looked so ridiculous.
01:00:26.390 --> 01:00:30.890
But the truth is when you have an emotional power and you're able to move with momentum,
01:00:31.190 --> 01:00:34.940
you forget about all those things and in a weird way, all of those little crimes
01:00:34.940 --> 01:00:36.430
that we were worried about the sort of
01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:41.170
forest for the trees situation, really kind of, we looked at a forest and the
01:00:41.170 --> 01:00:43.830
forest was really moving and I think that's one of those things that's really
01:00:43.830 --> 01:00:46.810
nice about this process of getting it to the finish line and knowing that
01:00:47.070 --> 01:00:49.880
you got to have faith that's going to work and you got to work really hard to.
01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:51.430
Make sure that it feels seamless.
01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:56.090
So nobody has a moment of disengagement. And I think because nobody had a moment
01:00:56.090 --> 01:00:58.740
of disengagement, it was a very satisfying ending.
01:00:58.750 --> 01:01:05.780
Can you describe the before and after effect of when a series ultimately ended,
01:01:06.170 --> 01:01:13.390
what did you feel the reaction would be before it actually aired on HBO?
01:01:13.390 --> 01:01:17.610
And then how did you observe the audience's reaction?
01:01:17.660 --> 01:01:22.410
I felt pretty confident that we had done something really good.
01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:28.020
Again, the scene itself was so amazing and it was the finale of this great series.
01:01:29.300 --> 01:01:33.040
And after seeing it and after seeing, you know, the final edit,
01:01:33.050 --> 01:01:36.210
um I recall feeling very
01:01:36.220 --> 01:01:41.020
confident and very proud that we were able to, you know, add something to this
01:01:41.030 --> 01:01:47.340
great series and this great final scene and, and yeah, the response was pretty
01:01:47.340 --> 01:01:52.370
unanimous that you got, you know, it was an amazing use of the song and a great
01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:54.200
music supervision moment.
01:01:54.820 --> 01:02:00.850
I was not as confident as Gary was because I think especially when you're working
01:02:00.850 --> 01:02:03.260
on a TV show, you're so close
01:02:03.270 --> 01:02:08.850
inside of it and you're very hyper aware of all of the limitations or all the
01:02:08.850 --> 01:02:12.920
things that you're worried are not going to work or all the things like you're
01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:14.800
invested in making it work.
01:02:14.815 --> 01:02:18.305
And for me, at least I felt nervous right at the very ending.
01:02:18.305 --> 01:02:22.765
It was very relieved when people responded as positively as they did.
01:02:22.775 --> 01:02:26.025
There's plenty of good songs and there's plenty of TV shows and I don't really
01:02:26.025 --> 01:02:29.215
work on them, but that, you know, music is kind of random and it just feels
01:02:29.215 --> 01:02:31.025
good and just bounces around the background.
01:02:31.035 --> 01:02:35.645
Um I don't specialize in those type of shows. Like, to me, it has to really
01:02:35.645 --> 01:02:39.605
speak to the character and speak to the story in a compelling way and I'd rather
01:02:39.605 --> 01:02:41.565
not have music if it's not saying anything.
01:02:41.575 --> 01:02:44.245
And I think that's another part of the discipline of the ability to say.
01:02:44.499 --> 01:02:47.529
We don't need music here. Why are we adding it in there? What are we trying
01:02:47.529 --> 01:02:50.159
to communicate? And so that conversation I think is really valuable one.
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:52.019
And it's great when you can do it with someone that you trust.
01:02:52.029 --> 01:02:55.439
I know that we're running out of time. But I did, I didn't want to let you go
01:02:55.439 --> 01:03:00.809
before we could talk a little bit about the long tail of just the industry that
01:03:00.809 --> 01:03:03.829
you work in as, As far as this needle drop goes.
01:03:03.839 --> 01:03:08.999
How did you feel that selecting breathe me for the ending of 6ft under?
01:03:09.009 --> 01:03:12.779
Move the needle at all in terms of how we talk about music supervision today?
01:03:12.789 --> 01:03:19.439
Did you notice an evolution like just in the way that we talk about that art don't be modest.
01:03:19.849 --> 01:03:24.189
I think it did, you know up the ante a little bit. I mean, I just think it showed
01:03:24.189 --> 01:03:27.319
what the possibilities can be of how a song could work in a scene.
01:03:27.319 --> 01:03:32.059
But it's rare to have a scene like that, you know, a canvas like that to put a song up against.
01:03:32.069 --> 01:03:37.459
I think our job is in many ways to both make sure that the general approach
01:03:37.459 --> 01:03:41.679
to music is all working really well that there's a palette that's being followed,
01:03:41.689 --> 01:03:44.689
throwing different ideas at different times and then
01:03:44.899 --> 01:03:48.729
a lot of the best ideas kind of come through that and they make sense because
01:03:48.729 --> 01:03:51.679
we were able to kind of keep and curate that approach.
01:03:51.689 --> 01:03:54.019
You know, I think there's a lot of this hero, like you picked it.
01:03:54.019 --> 01:03:55.719
How did you pick it and so forth?
01:03:55.729 --> 01:03:59.479
I think ultimately, it's really like being curatorial in the sense of bringing
01:03:59.479 --> 01:04:03.669
the right people in getting the right resources together, keeping the conversation
01:04:03.669 --> 01:04:04.969
about the characters and making
01:04:04.969 --> 01:04:08.899
sure the good ideas make it to the top regardless of where they come from.
01:04:08.929 --> 01:04:12.419
I think that's sort of like the best work in my mind is pretty ego free.
01:04:13.189 --> 01:04:14.669
I will, I will say that I'm so
01:04:14.669 --> 01:04:19.529
very proud to have been part of that six ft Under series and the finale.
01:04:19.529 --> 01:04:24.499
And, you know, I think that I often joke that I'm going to have that song playing
01:04:24.499 --> 01:04:28.019
on my tombstone when people walk by, it will trigger something and breathe me
01:04:28.019 --> 01:04:32.299
will come out and that would be just fine. Should I go that direction in my,
01:04:34.290 --> 01:04:36.410
But that would certainly be appropriate.
01:04:38.500 --> 01:04:43.570
In 2015, Alan Ball actually told vulture that all the songs he considered to
01:04:43.580 --> 01:04:51.420
end the show on, none of them were as poetic and poignant as C is ball also told Callum are that he
01:04:51.650 --> 01:04:55.800
wanted something hopeful and wistful, but with a certain feel that they're searching
01:04:55.800 --> 01:05:00.920
for something definitely tracks as far as breathing arc goes.
01:05:01.370 --> 01:05:06.730
Yeah. And as Peter Krause also said in that Vulture piece, Allen's point in
01:05:06.730 --> 01:05:11.230
making the show was to help people feel more alive and make decisions in life
01:05:11.230 --> 01:05:13.490
to be more alive because it's gonna end
01:05:13.780 --> 01:05:17.890
since it aired six ft Under is still considered the basically the Holy Grail
01:05:17.890 --> 01:05:19.820
for a serious finale episodes.
01:05:19.830 --> 01:05:24.410
Younger listeners might be more familiar with Sia's post chandelier career,
01:05:24.460 --> 01:05:29.380
but Breathe me is almost entirely the reason CIA became a mainstream star.
01:05:29.580 --> 01:05:34.120
More than 15 years later. It's still talked about this, this last episode of
01:05:34.130 --> 01:05:37.880
the TV show six ft Under is still talked about as one of the best,
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:41.530
if not the best endings to a TV series in history.
01:05:41.540 --> 01:05:47.050
Alan Ball is one of those directors who will talk about hiring the people that
01:05:47.050 --> 01:05:51.900
he feels are best suited for a project and then just getting out of their way,
01:05:52.070 --> 01:05:57.030
which is, I think a really fantastic management philosophy as someone who's
01:05:57.030 --> 01:05:59.250
had like too many bad bosses.
01:05:59.260 --> 01:06:03.330
And Ball himself admitted that he did not know where the show is going to go
01:06:03.330 --> 01:06:04.570
after the first episode.
01:06:04.580 --> 01:06:10.980
And in, in casting the actors shooting the episode, creating the writer's room,
01:06:10.990 --> 01:06:15.890
he was kind of listening to what the show wanted to be and what the actors were
01:06:16.055 --> 01:06:17.526
Him and it creates a really.
01:06:17.875 --> 01:06:23.846
Satisfying feedback loop as opposed to having to source every idea all by yourself,
01:06:23.846 --> 01:06:27.506
which is when your show runs dry after 10 episodes.
01:06:27.515 --> 01:06:32.926
Thanks for, thanks for doing this. This is fun. I like this. I like this too.
01:06:33.046 --> 01:06:35.075
Let's do another one soon. When,
01:06:35.075 --> 01:06:38.495
when soon, when would you think that we should do another one of these?
01:06:38.506 --> 01:06:44.490
Perhaps next week, next week does work. But until then you can find us on the
01:06:44.490 --> 01:06:48.450
internet on our social media platforms, which we don't have set up yet,
01:06:48.460 --> 01:06:53.060
but it will, it will be set up by the time you hear this and you can shoot us an email.
01:06:53.070 --> 01:06:56.770
Once again, our email will be set up at some point.
01:06:56.780 --> 01:07:01.920
Um But interact with us. However, you get your podcasts and tune in next week
01:07:01.930 --> 01:07:04.010
when we'll be at this all again.
01:07:04.020 --> 01:07:10.560
And for In Sync, the Music Podcast Rubenstein, I am Rachel Brodsky.
01:07:10.560 --> 01:07:12.610
Thank you so much. For listening in with us.
01:07:13.680 --> 01:07:30.466
Music.