Lessons from founding 22 companies | Dom Pym, Up Bank

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Welcome to Imperfect Company, the podcast where great founders tell the real story of building a startup in Australia. Uh, I'm Lee Jasper, founder of Aconex, now building Firmble, and investing through Glitch Capital.
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And I'm Sam Kronenberg, founder of A Cloud Guru, uh, now building Cuttable, and also investing through Glitch.
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Uh, every episode we sit down with a founder, we kinda get to know them, hear their stories, and, and go deep on one or two of the things that they've lived more closely than anyone else. Today our guest is Dom Pym.
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So he's a fintech legend as far as Australia goes.
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Uh, one of the first- well, one of the founders of one of the first neobanks in Australia, one of the only ones still standing from that era, um, so we can talk about that. Yeah.
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Uh, but, you know, has invested, uh, widely across the fintech sector, uh, and more broadly with the Australian, uh, ecosystem after selling up to Bendigo Bank, which is another story in itself, or almost selling, not quite [laughs] there I think, from what I understand.
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But, um, earn-outs are still going. But, uh, yeah, love to talk about your journey and how you started as a founder and, and hear more about the ups and downs, the scrapes and scars of building businesses along the way.
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I'm very excited about today, 'cause you have a pretty wild ride. Your, your background, your history is, is amazing. Yeah, it's been, been a journey- Yeah [laughs]... for sure. Yeah. So let's go way back.
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Uh, when and how did you get into building startups? And, and your, your first business was a grain trading exchange, so how, how did [laughs] how did you end up doing that?
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Well, it's probably even further back than that. Like, I, I started, um, a company at 14, and it was, you know, a little printing company.
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There's not much to say about it really, but it was, it was, it, you know, the, the start of the journey. And then really the first company I've...
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Been tracing it back and thinking about who, who are the people that have surrounded me over the years, uh, and it's sort of like the old adage of surround yourself with people better than you. You know- Yeah...
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make yourself redundant. Yeah. And I kinda go back all the way actually to the record label. Like, the record label- Hmm...
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um, was really the first company that was a startup, and it was, um, in the era of, like, just when music was going digital. Mm-hmm.
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And so what I realized is that every time I start a new company, there's something happening globally that is extremely disruptive- Right... uh, and we're sort of taking advantage of that.
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So we became the second iTunes content aggregator in the world. Um, and we ended up with building a digital record label, which became the largest independent record label in Australia. And it was- Really?...
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almost by accident. Um, you know, it was like someone asked me to be their band manager- Hmm... and I started writing software to manage bands.
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Next thing you know, we have 500 bands, and then we built a recording studio, and then we bought a music school- Oh, wow... and we created an entire ecosystem to help people get into the music industry.
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How, how old were you at this point, like- Oh, this is when I was, uh, 26. Really? So this was a little while later. I had a corporate career in between. Like, I worked- Yeah...
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at SAP, the, at the time, the second-largest software company in the world. Yep. And so- You started as a developer, is that right? Yeah, I was a software developer, but I was...
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Like, you can be humble and say you're a software developer, but, like, I was the youngest employee of SAP ever- Really?... and the first undergraduate they ever recruited. And computers were just becoming a thing.
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Like, they were all mainframe. And so- Mm... really the job at the time was helping people to, uh, move to client-server, and very quickly it- Yeah... became, well, there's this new thing called a web browser. Yeah.
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How, how do you run on the web? Mm. And there's amazing, like, amazing stories. I worked with 47 of the Fortune 500, and we helped so many big brands just i- internet enable, including SAP. Mm.
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And so I became part of what's called the regional group, which were the three best software developers. Right. Maybe there were five of us in the end. Yeah.
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And they were just the best software developers, moved around the world to help enterprises succeed in the internet era. So youngest employee ever. How, how young were you? 19. 19? Yeah.
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So you didn't have a degree, or- No, I didn't have a degree... you just- I was actually studying at the time... did you go back to uni?
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No, I, well, I had a, a four-year degree and, and, and, and, um, one year was meant to be a kind of work experience- Right... industry-based learning. Okay.
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And so I did that, and it went so well I became the second highest billing consultant in Australia- [laughs]... in my, in my sort of u- u- undergraduate year. The only one there that understood the internet. Yeah. Yeah.
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And then they were like, "Well- And presumably pretty good margin on you. [laughs] Yeah.
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Well- I worked at McKinsey and I worked out what I was getting paid at one point for what I was being charged out, and it was, like, 9% or something [laughs] So you might have been charged out at maybe- Oh, no, they made a lot...
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50 times what you earned. And, and I worked it out too, and I presented to them at the end of the year. So I submitted my, uh, industry-based learning, we call it cooperative education.
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I, I, I submitted that report and I won best co-op student of the year or whatever. Mm.
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But I also created a report for SAP, and I pitched to them that if I would stay on, then I had to get a piece of the action, because they were billing me out at 600,000 and I earned 25,000. [laughs] You know? Yeah.
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So, so I said, "Well, you know, if I'm one of the highest billing consultants and I'm working with companies like Toyota and- Yeah... you know, NAB and BHP and this sort of stuff, I think I can add a lot of value."
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And, uh, ended up there... Uh, I left actually after a while, but I ended up coming back, and then I was there about seven years. Six, six, seven years. Yeah, right. And so you
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made the record label while working at SAP, or after?
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No, so, so the, the, the guy I met on my first day at work, I went into the elevator, I'd got the job, I went into the elevator, and there was just someone in there, held the door for me or whatever, and I said, "G'day."
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And he said, "Oh, g'day. Who are you?" "I'm, my name's Andrew." "My name's Dom."
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And, uh, he was a graduate, and so he was in the graduate program, and they didn't have an undergraduate program, so they said, "Oh, Dom, do you mind just joining the graduate program?"
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[laughs] And then we ended up traveling around the country and around the world together, um, and we worked on a lot of projects together, and then he was a musician. Oh, right.
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And many years later, obviously six or seven years later, he said, "Do you, um, you know, wanna manage our band? Um, and we need a website, you know, you're the web guy." [laughs] "Can you help us, you know, get a...
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get, get something in a web browser?" Oh, wow. Um, and then later on he said he's gonna quit SAP and start a record company, and would I wanna be his business partner. And so I'm like, "Sure."
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Well, like what an adventure [laughs] Yeah I was kind of semi- let's say semi-retired because by then I'd done so much around the world and, and made so much money- Mm...
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and everything to me, it was like, oh my God, like I could just buy a farm and just chill out. Yeah. Um, so why not do a record label, you know?
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So I'd say that the record label, I've sort of now worked out that some of the people that work at Up today- Mm...
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and some of the people that work in some of the other startups that I'm funding today worked at the record label. Oh, right. And so some of them followed me for- Right...
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23 years through six or seven different companies. Oh, wow. But- Um, and so there's a- Mm... r- a real affinity with those people.
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So yeah, like The Grain Exchange was the one that people know, but before The Grain Ex- And that came out of... Was it, how did you... Was it a whole separate business? Yeah.
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So when, when we had the record label, um, my first job in IT when I was much younger, maybe 16, I think, um, what was building a data feed to the stock exchange- Mm... and building, uh, stock market trading software.
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And my best mate's dad, it was his company- Mm... and I just, um, sort of stumbled into it. But within a few years, I'm like CTO. Mm. Um, and so just before I started with SAP, and
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I went off and did the SAP thing, and then I came back when I was 26, years later, and said, "Um, maybe I'll buy that software company," 'cause there's something nostalgic about it, you know? Mm.
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So I bought it for a dollar. [laughs] I just bought that old software company, and we merged it in with the record label, and we got all the developers and stuff, and you know, it- How, you bought...
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How did you buy the company? So it was an active operating company? It was an active company, but it was like, the guy was old and he, you know, they had- Okay... the people that were involved had- [laughs]...
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not a lot of interest in it. It wasn't a hugely- It was just kind of stagnating... successful company. Yeah. It was kind of stagnant. So I said, "Can we transfer the IP for a dollar?"
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You know, "I'll buy all the assets," basically. And how many people in the company? Mm. I mean, hardly any. We got maybe three or four people. Three or four engineers. Um, yeah.
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And, and so- So that then became the Grain, that then- No, no. So the record, the record company needed to make money. Right. How do you make money in the record industry, right?
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So, so we, we, we started building software as well because we had, um, uh, graphic designers, we had videographers, we had software developers.
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We had all these people in-house at the record label, but they weren't making money. Mm. So we're like, well, we could be making commercial software as well.
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And so we kind of ended up with a bit of a startup hub where we're doing projects in-house. Like an incubator in a sense. Like an incubator sort of thing. Yeah.
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And one of the things we did was build this stock market software. Some of the people that worked there- That was for the exchange? Or that was separate- Well, we, we, we did- Like 4D-... we did a deal. We did a...
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Our, our main heads of agreement was with Westpac, but we were trying to sell it to Com- Comsec at the time. Right. And also E*TRADE, which was ANZ. And so we just- Yeah...
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got NAB Trade, ANZ, which was E*TRADE, Comsec, and, and Westpac, and we tried to sell them all this trading program, which we'd moved from being sort of a, a piece of software to a, a web platform, and online broking was starting to happen.
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Comsec were moving- Mm... from like telephones to online broking. Mm. And so we thought that was really cool.
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Now, our biggest investor in that company, um, happened to be the managing director of the largest private company in the world, which was a commodities company. Mm. Um, it was called Glencore.
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Right, they're publicly- I know them... listed now. Yeah. Mm.
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And so it was always like a competition between Glencore and Cargill, who, who were the biggest commodities traders in the world, and this guy from Glencore in Australia said, um, "Could you do what you're doing in equities, but in commodities?"
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Mm. And we're like, "Why not?" Yeah. So we, we, we were, I would say we were mostly looking, how do you make money? Like, we had to survive. Mm-hmm.
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And so anything that came across our desk, we just sort of had a crack at it. Yeah. I'll, I'll tell you a couple of things about that. Like when we started, we had no revenue- Mm...
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and we had no investors other than this one guy. Mm. And there was two of us, um, me, me and my co-founder, Tommo. And I approached Marty Howe, who was, um, co-founder at Real- REA, um- Mm...
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real estate group, and he wanted to build his next startup, so he came on as the third co-founder. Yep.
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And so the three of us were then brainstorming, like how, how do you make a software company successful while we're building a grain exchange at the same time? And so we built a couple of apps that,
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you know, I'm gonna joke and say no one's ever heard of, but the first one we did was Lonely Planet, and so we built the, the app for Lonely Planet because it was something like 73 of the top 100 apps in the App Store, the App Store had just launched.
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Mm. Um, about, about 70-something of the top 100 were all Lonely Planet books, like they're all Lonely Planet apps- Yeah. Right... for each different city. Yeah.
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And so we built an aggregated one, and we were one of the first 12 companies in the world to build in-app purchasing for, for the app store. And Lonely Planet was based here in Melbourne.
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And we're based here in Melbourne. Yeah. Our CTO became their CTO. Oh. In fact, he was at Aconex before that. Um, um- Yeah. James Pearce... James Pearce. Yeah. Very funny- And so James-... guy, James Pearce...
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sort of was the connective tissue there. Yeah. And then one of our mates rang up from Automattic in, in- Mm... uh, in the US and said, "We're building this thing, it's a CMS for the internet- Mm...
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um, and we wanna, we wanna build a- an app 'cause apps are all the rage."
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And Steve Jobs was getting up on stage and announcing in-app purchasing, and so he presented the Lonely Planet app, like the logo was on, you know, on the, on the back thing or whatever.
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Our logo wasn't there, but we built it. Mm. We did it for a fixed price, and so we didn't make much money. Um, but, but then- [laughs]... then these guys from Automattic rang and said, "Oh, can you build this little app?
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It's called WordPress." And so we're like, "Okay." And so we built WordPress, and there was maybe three of us working on it. Mm. Um, and then now it controls 25% of the internet.
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Um, but you know, again, a fixed price, but it was like, we're trying to make money, so we were like contracting ourselves out. When Apple launched the App Store- Sorry, you built the app for WordPress? Is that right?
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The WordPress mobile app. Really? The first one. Wow. You know, and it was the first- That's impressive... Ruby on Rails open source app in the world. Yeah. Huh. Um, and so like- Do you know whatever happened to Ruby?
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We did a bit of Ruby back then. It's still going. Well, well, we, we used Ruby on Rails for the bank, like we became- Right... the first bank in the world in production- Yeah... with Ruby on Rails. Yeah.
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It's still around. It reached mainstream. It's just not as... Yeah. JavaScript ate everything. Yeah. And, yeah.
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But so, so when you say like the first company and w- how did you get there, like I almost like stumbled into being a founder- Mm...
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um, because of this guy I met in the elevator that said, "Do you wanna come and run a record label?" And then like from then on, it was like just, um, chaos. So you built the... You s- sorry [laughs]
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I'm trying to connect it all together. So the, as you're building Lonely Planet, WordPress, [clears throat] these apps, is the company you're operating the grain company? Yeah. Yeah. So the company was...
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Well, we had three companies, but, you know, like the- Yeah... the, the advisor said, "Set up a, a, you know, an IP company and set up an employment company." Yeah. So- Yeah...
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so the head company was a company called Clear Interactive. Yeah. Mm. And Clear Interactive was a bunch of software developers. Yeah. But Clear Grain was one of the subsidiaries. Okay. And, and- And that owned the IP...
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and Clear Grain was our- Yeah... main, that was our- Yeah... main game. Yeah. And we built the world's first grain exchange, online grain exchange. Yeah. And we- Yeah... we, you know, we patented the concept.
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We've got this thing called a G ticket, a grain ticket. Yeah. And it, it's a, a digital representation of a commodity. It's like a mortgage or a title. Yeah, right. Like a title to grain.
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And you can h- How, how many grains? [laughs] I'll tell you what, like you learn these things. Like, I knew nothing about grain, right? Mm.
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But, but we, we learnt very quickly that there's th- a thing called commingled grain. Because y- you know, you, you, you harvest a field and you put it in a silo. Yeah.
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It goes in a truck, and it goes to a distribution or a, or a port. Mm. Um, and it ends up in, uh, like mixed with everyone else's grain. So how do you create a title to it? And so we had to- That's a great point...
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grade the grain. Mm. And then you have a title to a certain grade. Mm. And you, when you get it out, let's say you put 10 tons in. Mm.
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And then someone takes five tons of your grain out, and they pay you for it, um, it's not your grain. Mm. It's commingled grain, but you get paid based on the grade. Of that, yeah. And, and, and so- Mm...
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the title would be to the, to the grade of the grain. But anyway- Right...
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l- long story short, like we, we, we did a few other projects, none of which are a- as exciting as, you know, Lonely Planet [laughs] or WordPress.
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Um, but, but it was just to make money so that we could build the grain exchange. And then of course, we had to raise more money. Yeah.
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And we became more of a traditional startup, where we had shareholders, and we had- Yeah. Yeah... you know, we had to worry about giving a return to investors. And- Yeah... and we, you know, we had equity for the staff.
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And in fact- Yeah... we had no ESOP, so the staff back then- You just gave them shares... bought, no, they bought in Oh, they bought in, oh. They bought in, yeah. Yeah. Oh, they bought into- They bought in, yeah...
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your staff paid to buy into the company? Yeah, well, we needed money, so everyone- Oh, so they were... [laughs] Isn't that crazy? Well, we didn't do it to raise money- Oh, right...
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but we gave all staff the opportunity to invest. And a lot... Did we not? Yeah. I think we had something like 50 to 100 of our staff- Yeah... actually invest in the business over the years.
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Aside from options, a lot of people got options, but- W- at Cuttable, we'll often, we- we'll say to c- uh, employees, "Hey, you can trade off some of your salary if you want more equity." Yeah.
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So you can take a pay cut and turn that- Yeah, we always used to do that, yeah... so that's like our kind of equivalent of like you can- Yeah, you can just buy it, yeah... you can buy it, which I, I really like that.
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Yeah. 'Cause if you've got more conviction, you can- Yeah... you can go in. Well, this w- this was 2007, and so just prior to that, um, in the late '90s, I'd been in Silicon Valley.
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And living in Palo Alto, it's very different. Um- Mm... you know, it seemed like it was the future. Mm. And the dotcom boom hadn't happened, and the dotcom bust hadn't happened yet. Yep. Um, and there was no Google.
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There was no Facebook. There was- Yeah... no Instagram, none of these WhatsApp. None of these companies existed, but- There was Hewlett-Packard and- There's Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft and, you know- Yeah...
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like, um, you know, the, the, the, the university, Stanford. You know- Yeah... there, there was not much really there. I, I, I do joke now- Was it, was it, was it called Silicon Valley back then?
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It was called Silicon Valley- Had that name?... but, but I joke now that- It was more down, so San Jose area, because that's where all the, I mean, a lot of the, the chips and everything- Yeah, yeah... were made.
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Right HP was in Palo Alto. Yeah, Fairfield Semiconductor were there. Yeah. You know, like there was this- Yeah, okay... but, um, Intel had launched, you know. But we, we, um, uh, we used to ride our bikes to the office.
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Yeah. And it was through the fields. There was like vineyards and cows and horses and stuff. Like, it's- Orchards and horses... yeah, orchards, and it looks very different- No way. Wow... to what you see now.
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And people don't believe me, but it happened very quickly between the late '90s and the early 2000s. Mm. All these companies we know today, like- Mm. Built out, yeah... you know, came out, you know. Yeah. Wow.
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So that was a journey. Yeah. But I'm just saying you go from that to sort of being in Australia and staff buying in to get equity, like it's a very different- Yeah... sort of, uh, situation. Yeah.
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And so we, we're very c- we, we, we wanted to be advocates. Um, we sold that company after 16 months. So we started it, and within 16 months we sold it. So we, we, we had a five-year restrain of trade. Yeah.
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So, you know, we couldn't, like, compete, and we couldn't recruit the people. Not that, you know- Okay... we didn't want to. Yeah, yeah.
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But with, after those five years, nearly all of those people came to work in our new software company, and the new software company was Ferocia, and it b- it, it built up. And so there's a continuity.
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There's some people that started at the record label- Mm... went through the grain exchange, came to Pin Payments, then went to Ferocia, and then are now working with Up today- Yeah... at Bendigo Bank. Yep, that's great.
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And on the exit for the grain exchange, that sounds like it was not easy. It wasn't good. Um- [laughs] Was that one... We're gonna talk about worst days in the office, but that- Well, that was one of the worst days.
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That w- that's, uh, one of the things that comes to mind. It wasn't bad at the time.
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There was one thing really bad about it, which I'll tell you, but I'll just say this, that essentially there was a cultural mismatch between- Mm... a large regulated public company- Mm...
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buying a scrappy startup of 32 people. Mm. Mm. Now, I say 32 people, but the worst day in the office was... I've got lots of them, but- [laughs]... I'll tell you one of them related to this startup.
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[laughs] But, but this one was, you know, you've been struggling. You can't pay salaries. You know, you beg, borrow, and steal from your mates. Mm. You, you get family members to chip in.
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You're out raising capital full time. Like, you just, you got 32 people, you gotta, you, you gotta pay their salaries every month. Mm. Mm. Um, and we weren't making a lot of revenue.
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We're making no revenue at the time, like little projects like the WordPress one or whatever. You know, we, we, we, we did them fixed price. We hardly made anything. Mm.
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And we had this incredible technology team, but we had, we had to pay them. So- Mm... when, when the opportunity came to sell the company, it was, um,
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I would say a unanimous decision from n- by now five co-founders- Mm... um, who, who w- didn't get along perfectly, like as you can imagine. Mm. And so selling the company seemed like
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a, a good thing to do, and all the staff would get their money back, and, you know, all the... Like it seemed like the, the right thing to do. Mm.
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So we're probably a little bit anxious, and, uh, each staff member was interviewed as part of due diligence.
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And what I would say is my best mate at work, we'd worked together at the record label, we'd worked together at the grain exchange, we'd built these apps together, we traveled around Australia together visiting farmers, and all this sort of stuff, the, the, the most awesome work person you can think of, I, I, I, at the time I didn't call him this, but now I call this type of person the chief imaginer.
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Mm. Like he was the ideas guy. Yep. And he was my best work mate. Mm. And we'd worked-... very hard building the band management software and, and the record label- Mm... and everything.
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Anyway, they did interviews with all the staff, and they, they came back to me and, and uh, the business partners and said, um, "We'll acquire the company. We only want 31 people." Ugh.
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I'm like, "What do you mean 31 people? We've got 32 people." And they said, "Well, we don't like this guy." No. And the hardest day probably in my professional career w- was walking him to the door- Oh...
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taking his security pass, taking his computer, and- Mm... we had an ultimatum. We, we, we couldn't sell the company to them with 32 people. Mm. I mean, it took 10 years before he spoke to me. Oh, really? Mm. Oh my God.
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That's, that's hard. Pretty bad. That was a hard one. Yeah. That's, that's tough. But you know, you have lots of regular tough stories- Yeah... like money and this sort of thing.
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Like we, we, we- Yeah, the people ones are always- But the, but the people ones are the ones that really break your heart. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know- Was he an owner of the company as well?
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Uh, well he was a shareholder. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he at least got something out of it also. Well, it, well, well, well it ended up a really, really bad exit. So, so to your question- Mm...
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we, we, we sold the company, and it was a big sale. It was, I think it was 27 million plus earn out. And, um, f- for us- A good return for people who invested or? No.
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Well, what happened was they broke into the three tranches. Right. And the first tranche was paid up front. Okay. And it was cash, you know. Yeah.
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Um, the, the, the subsequent tranches required not just time, but also deliverable. Um, within five weeks of acquisition they were firing people. Mm. Within five months there was a handful of us left, um,
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including my business partner- Mm... who, who, who'd, who'd had to, um, ha- had, had to leave and, and came up with some deal to, to get out. Mm. Um, you know, then they sued us, and they...
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Um, we, we spent five years of our lives and $10 million fighting this legal suit. They sued you? They sued us. They sued you for what? But you had, yeah. Yeah. It was the most bizarre thing ever.
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The reason they sued us- Because they'd underfunded. Presumably they hadn't put- they hadn't invested to enable you to earn the- Well, the, the reason they sued us- Yeah. To give you-... very, very quickly- Yeah...
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is so they could get jurisdiction.
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So they're a New Zealand company, we're an Australian company, and as soon as they sued us, we went to our lawyers, and they're like, "Oh, mate, you sh- you guys should've got in first." You know, so- Oh, goodness...
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yeah, they didn't fund the company. They fired people. They, there was- Yeah, they didn't give you a chance-... massive trauma mismatch. Nothing happened, like- To hit your targets... impossible. Yeah.
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So we ended up fighting it in the High Court of New Zealand. But we all had three legal, like three court cases, two in Australia. Mm.
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Um, I think it was, um, county court, magistrate's court, or magistrate's court and high court. Or so, two different courts. Mm-hmm. Um, we won both of those cases. And how did you fund that?
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'Cause you, you sort, you've- Well, this is like, you asked me the worst- So, 'cause each shareholder has to- You asked me-... somehow fund... No, no, no. Like, yes, that's the way it should work. In theory, yeah.
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Uh, me and my business partner took it on ourselves and kept everyone else, uh, well, protected everyone else interest.
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We didn't, we, we, we, we, we really didn't want to end up in a situation where our staff were dragged into this sort of like- Yeah. Yeah... it was messy. Yeah. Very messy. Yeah.
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And, uh, you know, it was a 12-week court case. It was the first webcast court case in New Zealand. It was front page news.
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The, the, the, the stock exchange, the regulator was suing us, and they had a habit of doing this. Um- Wow... and we were standing up for the little guy. Um- So this is the New Zealand Stock Exchange?
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New Zealand Stock Exchange. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's all new people. Why was, why, sorry. Why was it webcast? Uh- Because you were in- Well- No... people were all over the world. Yeah. Like by then- Okay...
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you know, people were living in London or- Yeah... living in Hong Kong. So you had to connect a lot of them. Um, and there was a lot of, uh, connection. Yeah.
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But it, it just happened to be, like, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time when new technology is happening. Mm. It's the fir- co- first court case to use technology in that. [laughs] Of course.
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Have you ever been through court, Sam? Anything with- I have... with Cloud Guru? But I can't talk about it. Yes. But I have you. Yeah, yeah, I have. It's, it sucks. Yeah. There's just nothing fun about it.
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We had a, at Akamai- Yeah... we had one of our shareholders weirdly sue us. Um, and we had a, a long court case, cost millions of dollars. Yeah.
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Um, you know, I won't go into too much detail there, but it was, but just- Well, maybe he wants to talk about it, right? I want to talk about it. I, nobody wants to- Yeah...
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but I, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna write a book about it. Um- Yeah... and, and- Me, and, and Grant, if you can. I mean, when I say can't, there's certain things I can't talk about- Well-... but, but certain things I can say.
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We- Mm... the, the thing, it was wor- it was just draining. Yeah. And yeah, it just goes on, and you're trying to run a business. It's so draining. And you've got all this- Well, it's destroyed us. Yeah.
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But, but the thing is that my business partner and I fought together and fought hard, and we won the two court cases in Australia. We, we, we didn't win the one in the Y- in the New- in New Zealand, but neither did they.
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So for the first time in the New Zealand High Court history, um, after s- we spent 10 million, they spent 15, $25 million on lawyers, barristers, the whole thing. Um- We didn't spend that much. [laughs] Yeah.
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[laughs] I thought 5 million was a lot. At, at, at the end of the court case, um, there's a 100-page judgment, like a finding, and, um, the, the, the, the result is a nil all draw. No cost awarded to either party.
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Nobody wins. Just walk away. Um- [sighs] Oh, wow. Well, the lawyers win. So the lawyers made a fortune. Of course they do.
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[laughs] But, but I'm just saying that was one of the ha- I would not wish that on my worst enemy. No. That was one of the hardest things ever. There's only... I, I'm a, I'm an optimist. Like, I look at the positives.
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Yeah. The, the, one of the positives, my business partner and I were together 15 years, and we fought really hard through that journey, and that was five years of hell. Mm.
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And it helped solidify our relationship to, to bring us into building up, you know? Like to, to- Yeah... to create the next company together.
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And, and the other thing is there was a five-year wait where we couldn't, like, poach the staff. Yeah. So we didn't, but we were in court for five years.
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Like, we went in court f- we were in court for 12 days, but, but, but the whole process- Yeah. But the whole process takes years. Yeah... took so long.
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And so then, then at the end of that process, the staff were able to come back and we created a new software company, and the new software company is what I'm known for.
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It's like the, it's the, it's the- So you, and then so you- Yeah, that whole process, d- did that, what did that inform in the way you s- set up the next setup? Oh, everything. Yeah. E- e- everything that went wrong.
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So for example, you asked about the, um, the staff and the shareholders. The first tranche was seven million. Yeah. And we'd raised seven million. Through selling their money. So we gave everyone their money back. Yeah.
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And we felt like that we'd done the right thing. Mm. Now you gotta pay tax, and there was all sorts of- Mm... you know, capital gains. Yeah.
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There were other things to consider, but from our perspective, we'd done everything we can to get everyone their money back. Yeah. And so we felt that that was the right thing to do.
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Um, but the other tranches never came. Oh. Right So you never saw any upside? So, so how did we pay for it? I mean, one of the other worst days of my life was that a family friend had lent us money to, to pay- Mm...
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for salaries and things. Um, and I'd mortgaged the house five times. Mm. And, um, and, and I- you can go to a bank and you can say to the bank, "I can't pay the mortgage," and they'll, and they'll give you a reprieve.
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You know- Mm... they'll say, "Well, there's a period of time where it'll capitalize, and, you know, we won't, we won't make you pay it until you get back on your feet."
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Um, but you can't do that with your mate who's lent you- Mm... you know, a lot of money. Yeah. Um, and so I was in tears. I remember sitting in Faulkner Park in, uh, I guess it's St. Kilda, South Yarra- Mm...
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um, and, and just sitting on a park bench crying, like, 'cause I, like how, what do I do? I just- Mm... I, I didn't know what to do. So- Mm... so for us, like, getting from that level of destitution- Mm...
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to then creating a new company, which we eventually sold at a value of 250 million. Yeah. Like, it's, it's an extraordinary sort of- Yeah... you know, it was exactly 10 years. You strike me as a very principled guy.
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Would... If you could undo that court case, if you could push a button and go back and undo it and not, not have to have done it, would you do that, or were you standing on the principle? I would never, never undo it.
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Like, like this person who sued us- Yeah... will never work again. Yeah. Like, they, they, they lost their job, um, they're a bad person- Yeah...
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and they, they su- and they'd sued so many other people, and we uncovered so much bad stuff in discovery and along that journey- Yeah...
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that I feel like it might be righteous, but I feel like we did the right thing- Yeah... and I would never wish it on my worst enemy, but I'd do it again tomorrow. Yeah. Because you gotta stand up for, for what's right.
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You gotta do what's right. Yeah.
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Well, you gotta do the right thing, and there were so many people that settled- Well, having been told that going to court is you should never expect justice, 'cause it's just the way- Yeah... the court system works.
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But- Yeah. I did learn- But doing the right... Yeah... no, I did learn something that day that, um, when the judgment came in that, um, that, that, that there's no...
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Like the justice and the law are two different things. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and, and, you know, like regardless, like I,
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I was in the witness stand for three days, like cross-examination by barristers and the judge, you know, interrogating- Mm... my ability to tell the truth, my intelligence- Mm...
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um, my motivations, whether I'm doing the right thing, all this other stuff. Mm. And it, it, it breaks you down into, um, like the base elements of being a human. Um- Mm...
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and, and, and yeah, it's a horrible experience, but it's an experience that meant, to your question, everything changed when we started the new company- Yeah...
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because we're like, "We will not take, um, uh, we will not sell the company ever. If we do sell the company, we will take cash, thank you very much- Mm. Mm... and we want it all up front.
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Um, and we wanna make sure everyone is rewarded." Yeah. Like, we had no ESOP. You know, we talked a little bit earlier about not having an ESOP. Mm.
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And, um, and, and that meant when we sold the company, we had to come up with a new sort of structure- Mm... that would allow us to pay money to all the staff members. Yep. And our goal was, like,
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make as many millionaires as you can when you're selling a company like that. Yeah. Yeah. But you've got 63 people. Mm. Um, you can't make them all millionaires. So imagine that decision. Mm. Yeah.
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Talk about worst day at work. Like, how, how do you go through a spreadsheet of people you've worked with for 10 years- Mm... and decide which one gets more than a million and which one gets less than a million?
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So you actually did post sale, you hadn't worked out what... So people didn't have equity allocated. No. You just did it post- There were two shareholders, me and my business partner. It was messy. Right.
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But you know, we, the reason there were two shareholders is 'cause of the court case. We didn't ever want ever a- another shareholder. Oh, I see. Yeah.
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Like, we never wanted to have anyone to be disappointed, anyone to be- Mm... dragged through the courts. We didn't want anyone, any, particularly a staff member- Mm... um, to have to put up w- like wear that risk.
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So, so that was a tough one, but, um- Bit Erin Brockovich working [laughs] who gets a big check. It's- I made it so-... that's hard. It's pretty, it's pretty tough. So- Uh, that, that was a tough one...
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so when you're doing this, wh- which company is this where you're going through the spreadsheet? Uh, this was- This was-... this was Froxa. Froxa- Oh, Froxa... was the parent company, but we- Yeah... we built up.
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Yeah, yeah. So this is when you're selling up. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So, so walk me through, so, so start that.
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So you, you then, you got this court case going on, you can't employ everybody, but then the minute you can, you start Froxa at that point? Well, we'd started Froxa well before that. But just not with those people.
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Not with those people. With other people. Then they came across- Some people came from the record label. Um, and then we waited, you know, and some people went off to, I don't know, um, uh, Red Bubble or, um, uh- Yeah...
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Envato or, you know, other companies. Other companies. Yeah. And so then you, you say you partnered then with Bendigo Bank to build up. That's the- Well, the, like maybe I'll tell that briefly- Yeah...
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is that w- we approached Bendigo originally to raise money. Right. Um, so we, we need to raise money. We need to- Mm... uh, you know- And what were you...
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Did you have a, were you going to build a banking app at that point? Was that the plan? That wasn't the plan. Uh, we were building a, th- we thought we'd go back and build the share trading app.
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You know, we'd go back- Ah... and build something for CommSec. Yeah. Yeah. And we'd got a heads of agreement, I don't know, um, a few years earlier with, with, um, Westpac, and so we thought, you know,
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this internet thing's on a tear. Why don't, why don't we build online broking? So we went back to that, and we had another crack at it. Um, and we pitched it to a bunch of people and didn't get a lot of traction.
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Uh, we did meet lots of great people like Matt Common and Rod Brister- Mm... and Pete Steele, and all these people who were at CommBank at the time, or CommSec at the time. Mm.
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But w- we, we, we ended up, um, at Bendigo Bank, and we met with the managing director, the CEO, um, and we said, you know, "We're trying to raise money, and this is what we're building."
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And he said, "That's all great, but that's not really how it works. Like, we're not, the bank's not gonna just give you guys money.
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Um, you know, we can do a loan or something like that, but, you know, it's just, you, you really wanna talk to, like, maybe a venture capitalist, you know, whatever." Yeah.
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"Um, but we do have a tender out at the moment to build an internet banking system. You guys seem to have a pretty good track record building internet stuff. Do, you know- [laughs]...
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would, would, would you guys be able to build an internet banking system for us? Mm. Um, and it needs to be mobile because there's this new thing, you know, the iPhone's just come out. Yeah.
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Um, everyone's moving to mobile. Mm. Mm. We've been tinkering with that ourselves. Um, you know, would you wanna pitch for the tender?" And so we did.
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We pitched for the tender up against IBM, Oracle, SAP, Sandstone, all the incumbent sort of banking players, and, uh, and we won the tender So we ended up building for six years the mobile and internet banking system for Bendigo Bank.
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Six years? Yeah. So this is cl- so this is not agile, as we call it? This is classic style.
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This is a- Well, no, we were, we, well, it- It might have been agile, but it is- We were a separate company, but w- so we could operate on our own way, and this is where- Mm-hmm... we built the Ruby on Rails app.
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So in 2011- Yeah. You couldn't launch, you couldn't launch anything before six years, or you had to have enough functionality? No, no, like within a couple of years we, um, we got to market. So we started in 2011. Mm.
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Um, the project, we won it and w- the project started in 2012, and then by 2014 we'd launched the first version- Right... into production. Yeah. Um, but then- Wow...
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it was a journey of just building internet and mobile banking for the next four more years- Yeah... before we said, "You know what? We should build a digital bank." Um, and I'll tell you why.
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Uh, one answer is frustration. The, the, the banks in Australia are already awesome- Mm-hmm... um, but y- they're still frustrating.
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Um, but on a global basis, the, the, the, the mobile apps for the Australian banks was a very high bar. Mm. Very, very good, very good on a global basis. Yeah.
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But we- When I moved to the US I couldn't believe how- Oh, yeah... bad the banking apps are. That's, that's what happened, right? They're terrible. Yeah. So, so what happened was three Aussies that we know. Yeah.
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One, one guy, Simon, uh, uh, uh, one, one, one... I wouldn't even need to say their names. You'll know who they are.
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But, but they started, um, uh, Moven, which is a digital bank in the US that sold into, um, TD Waterhouse in Canada. And then, uh, I'll, I'll say it, so it was, um, uh, Brett King- Mm...
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um, and, and his brother Troy King had worked, uh, was working at our company. Yeah. Um, and then, a- and so that was frustrating 'cause it's like an Aussie building a digital bank in America. Yeah.
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Um, and then, and then, uh, w- Simon was out of Sydney. He didn't work with us, but he was someone that we knew and we'd seen him on the circuit. He ended up becoming a co-founder of Monzo. Okay.
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And so Monzo was amazing. I became a Monzo shareholder when I was living in the UK. Um, and, and so I thought, you know, this is cool. We've got now two Aussies.
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And then a third Aussie came along, uh, Josh Wrych, and he, um, used to go to Melbourne Uni- Mm... with my, my best mate's girlfriend. Uh, and they were really good mates.
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And, and he went and built another digital bank called Bank Simple. It was, it was generally considered the first digital bank in the world. Hmm.
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And so he, uh, so those three people, these are the three Aussies leaving Australia and building a digital bank in another country. Mm. And we're like, "There's no digital banks in Australia."
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Well, there's ING, and we all used ING. Mm. Um, but that's the closest thing we had. So, so there was a bit of frustration, but there was also like we're already building banking software for Bendigo. Yeah.
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What if we build a digital bank? So we ended up, through a introduction, um, working with two of the Big Four banks- Mm... and we're under NDAs and all that sort of stuff. But the, you know, th- there were two of them.
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O- one of them wanted us to build a digital bank in Asia across 10 countries with a $400 million budget.
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[laughs] The other one wanted us to build a digital bank in Australia, and they sort of had a $50-ish million budget, which they ended up allocating to their core systems.
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So we did four and a half years of heartache from the time we launched the Bendigo app- Mm... working with the largest credit union in Australia- Mm...
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trying to get them up and running, and then working with two of the big banks, and we made millions. So you're doing that, so you, you've got the app- Parallel with Bendigo...
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in parallel, you're also- But we never, we never went live. None of that went to customers ever. Ah, right. And so it was four and a half years of frustration, so- Why is that?
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'Cause of some, somebody s- some manager sitting within the bank goes, "No, we can't release it"?
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Or was there- When you've got a $400 million budget and you've got McKinseys and IBM and Oracle and SAP and everyone in there- Mm... um, you end up with hundreds and hundreds of people trying to build a digital bank.
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Yeah. We, we, we had less than 15 people in our team- Yeah... and we were, we were just killing it. Yeah.
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So, so we ended up building the, the, the digital banks for these different banks, but they never went live, and that was very frustrating. Yeah. So we said, "You know what? Why don't we just build our own digital bank?"
246
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Yeah. And then we found very quickly that you need a banking license and you need about $200 million. $100 million for reserve and another $100 million to fund the business. Yeah. You need runway. Yeah.
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And so, like, how do you get $200 million and a banking license? It's pretty hard. Now, there were rumors that they were going to look at changing the re- the regulations- Mm...
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the legislation in Australia, so that you could have a restricted banking license and you could start a bank. Um, but I'll give you an example.
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One of the reasons they need to change it is you can't own more than 20% of a, a company, a, a bank, right? Mm. But, but, but if you're a founder- Wow... and there's two of you and you own- Yeah, yeah...
250
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you've got 50 each, you can't make a bank. Mm. Um, so they had to change that. They had to change the cap, so you can't have $100 million in reserve if you're two people doing a new startup bank. Yeah.
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So they made it 2 million, like just put 2 million in reserve and get a restricted license- Yeah... but you can't launch it to the public. You can only have a restricted customer base. So, so these things- Wow...
252
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were being talked about- Mm... and they'd happened in the UK.
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And in the UK, Monzo, Starling, M26, Revolut, all these banks were launching in the UK, and so the Australian regulators were looking at what was happening there. So Revolut's from that era as well, isn't it?
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Yeah, all of them are from that era. Mm. And so Revolut and Monzo both came across my desk. I invested in Monzo, and I didn't invest in Revolut.
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Um, you know, you, you have no regrets in life, but when I look back at that opportunity, like people are getting four and a half thousand times return, you know? Wow. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] And we go, "Why?"
256
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[laughs] And I, and, and it was a sort of seed investment back then. It was, uh, a crowdfund investment. So I wa- I was one of the first thousand people that invested in Monzo- Mm... but I said no to Revolut.
257
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Um, and my reason for saying no- [laughs]... is probably interesting too, because I didn't like the culture.
258
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I didn't like the people that were there, and I just, I couldn't, I, I couldn't bring myself to make an investment when it didn't align with my values. Mm. Whereas Monzo did. Yeah.
259
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Um, and so I was very excited about that. But anyway, so, um, so this was happening in the UK, and in the US they weren't giving out banking licenses, but you can buy them.
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You could actually buy a, a failing bank and, and take over their license sort of thing. Oh, right. There's several, what, 4,000 or 5,000 banks in the US. There, there are 4,500 at the time. Yeah.
261
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Yeah, so, so some ones- So, so, so this was happening overseas. Mm. And so what we did is we said, "Well, we're gonna start a bank."
262
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We went to an offsite, which was at my business partner's farm on the Great Ocean Road, and, uh, you know, it could sleep like 24 people, and I think we were 15 people or whatever.
263
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And so we sort of brainstormed how would you build a bank in Australia, and one of the things we realized is obviously you need a banking license. Mm. So we thought, "Well, we already work with a bank- Mm...
264
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and we're considered a material outsource provider," which is a regulatory sort of, um, label that they give someone who is legally responsible for the performance of the software. Right.
265
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And so we said, "We, we're kind of already building a bank, but we're just doing it for Bendigo." So we sat down and talked to Marnie, who was the CEO at the time.
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Um, and Marnie said, um, you know, she's meeting with all the people who wanna build a digital bank just to check out their options. Mm. And I'm like, "That's okay, but, but we already have a partnership."
267
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So what if we did it together? And we agreed to do a 50/50 joint venture and that they would provide the banking license. Mm-hmm. Um, they would pay money for...
268
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You know, they would fund it, um, and, and the core banking system they already had. So what we could do is we could build a bank in an accelerated way- Yeah...
269
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using all the people and all the knowledge that we developed over the prior six years- Yeah... with a partner that we'd been working with that we already trusted, with executives who backed us and sponsored us.
270
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Uh, it was like all the- So you had the relationships and, yeah- Perfect ingredients... it all sort of came together, yep. Yeah. Yeah.
271
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So we did that for about three, four years, and then on our 10th anniversary, they acquired us. So- Hmm... interesting t- thing through that. So you've got a, a partner that's half the business.
272
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So Sam sold Cloud Guru, I sold Aconex. We... Well, in the Aconex case, we had a, essentially a pro- We had a few suitors, if I can put it that way.
273
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We kept saying no, no-no to people, and eventually we had Oracle and one or two others that we were talking to and could run- Mm... a process.
274
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How do you run a process when there's only one potential acquirer who owns half the business? Well, they had no rights to the IP, and they didn't have any sort of, um, uh... There was, w- there weren't...
275
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W- it wasn't agreed that they would be the acquirer. So what happened was- Yeah... we thought we'll need to raise money outside of Bendigo. We'll need to, like- Mm... 'cause we owned all the IP. It was our company.
276
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It was an unincorporated joint venture. They own, they own half the company, but the IP- No, they didn't own half the company... they didn't, oh. They owned nothing. So it was just a JV for delivery.
277
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It's an unincorporated joint venture. It's just a contractual agreement. And- Right, okay...
278
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one of the things we worked out was that, um, uh, in order for the regulator to be satisfied, the, the bank had to be 100% owned subsidiary of the bank. Right.
279
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Of the, of the public company, of the, of the, of the licensed entity. So one of the things we worked out was that for the app- Mm...
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to be published in the App Store and the Google Play Store, it could only be published according to the Google and the Apple terms if it was owned by the bank.
281
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And according to the regulator, you can't operate as a bank in Australia, can't use the word bank in Australia unless you're a licensed bank. So we worked out that we could set up a subsidiary of Bendigo- Mm...
282
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and that subsidiary could have a joint venture with us- Mm... and that the regulators looked one level deep. And so they were like, they were satisfied- Mm...
283
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that that subsidiary was 100% owned by the bank, but that subsidiary had a contract with us for a 50%, um, joint venture- Mm... and yet we got to retain all the intellectual capital and- Right... intellectual property.
284
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And so it was an interesting model, and it was u- very unique. Um, and it was the- So that-... first time in Australia that had been done. So that subsidiary published the app, but you owned the IP for the app?
285
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Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so- They li- they essentially had a license agreement- Yeah... for that. Uh, uh, that's right. Yeah.
286
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And so then we said, "Okay, well, we want to, um, raise more money because Bendigo can't provide enough money." Yeah. Um, and so we went, "Well, let's do a seed round, and we'll do a $70 million seed round.
287
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It'll be the biggest seed round in Australian history. That'd be fun." Mm. So we had 106 meetings with venture capitalists, and every single one said no. So then the bank said- 106 meetings?
288
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Yeah, so the bank said- And that was a little bit, mostly in the US? No, all in Australia.
289
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There was many in Australia that we could, and then, uh- 106- No, what happened was- It wouldn't have been 106- No, what, we started the j-... all family offices and others or- Yeah, everybody... yeah...
290
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anyone that would give money. But we started- Right... the journey in Australia, and then we- Mm... went to the bank with the tail between our legs and said, "We can't raise money," or, "We're struggling."
291
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And they said, "Oh, you should talk to our mates at Goldman Sachs. They'll be able to help." Mm.
292
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So we met Goldman Sachs, and then they took on the project that they would run the seed round for us, and they introduced us to the rest of the 106.
293
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So they were public companies, they were, um, family offices, they were venture capitalists. They were all within the Goldman's network. Right. And we got enough to fill the round- Mm-hmm... but no lead. Yeah.
294
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And so the reason I started... after we sold the company, the reason I started a fintech venture capital firm- Is to be able to lead-... is to be able to lead rounds- Yeah...
295
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to be able to price rounds, to do due diligence- Yeah... to, to be able to raise capital in Australia because- Mm...
296
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there we were as the most successful bank in Australia ever, I'd say, the fastest growing bank that Australia had ever seen. Um, 80% organic growth, word of mouth.
297
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Um, you know, four times more people say they love Up than any other bank in Australia- Yeah... all of the banks combined. Yeah. So you're like, "Well, if it's so amazing, why won't anyone fund it?"
298
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And it turns out there's a regulatory issue in Australia where the ESVCLPs aren't able to invest in fintech without- Yeah, it's carved out... yeah, with- wi- without some... They lose their tax incentive.
299
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Why was that ever carved out, do you know? Well, because the, the, the, the view at the time, 15 years ago- Yeah, mm... was that there was no idea about fintech.
300
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Th- that these were financial services, these were lenders- Yeah... banks- But from, but from, presumably government thought
301
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erroneously, as usual, um, that [laughs] that they, they protect probably mum and dad investors from making a mistake- Yeah... or investors from- And, and-... going into fintechs which are high risk. I don't know. Yeah.
302
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It- There would have been something... it's more than the fintech. It's any regulated company. So it could be a biotech or it could be a regtech- Oh, I didn't even know that...
303
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or it could be any, any, any regulated- Oh, right... company in Australia. Yeah, okay. And so you can get an exemption and, you know- Mm...
304
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Square Peg, AirTree, Blackbird, they, they've all got exemptions and, and they set up a sidecar, or they invest through a non-ES- ESVPL- ESVCLP structure. Well, I mean, Glitch has that.
305
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We've got the ESVCLP plus the MIT for anything that doesn't fit. That's it. So you can do an MIT- But you don't get the- You don't get the tax incentive... yeah, mm-hmm.
306
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Um, and so with the new, um, budget and all that, like, nightmare, um- Yeah...
307
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uh, you know, we pushed really hard with Tech Council and others to, to make sure it's not ESVCLP, and that it's any investment structure- Yeah... that gets those any sort of incentive that is created. Yeah.
308
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So anyway, the reason- I don't even know if they've done that. The only crazy thing they've done with they've got that 10-year time limit which
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doesn't matter for a fintech or s- or a, um, or tech- or a software company, but if you're in biotech- Yeah... it's pretty- 10 years is-... doesn't exist... not a lot... but, but that's the reason why.
310
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So after meeting over- Mm... 100, um, potential suitors, we decided to invite Bendigo to these meetings so they could sort of see how amazing Up was, and Up was on a tear. We're growing at thousands of customers a month.
311
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But you're inviting somebody who you might wanna raise capital from to a meeting where you're getting nos. Yeah, but then they got to see how amazing it was, and then we got yeses. Eventually we got yeses- Ah...
312
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but we didn't have a lead. Didn't have a lead, yeah. And so we said, "Well, Bendigo, you know, would you lead it?" And then we met a public company and they wanted to lead it. They sent a term sheet.
313
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Then we met another public company, they wanted to acquire us, and so they sent a, um, a, an acquisition offer, which they later rescinded. Mm. But, um, uh, because they got acquired.
314
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So you did, you could actually run a process even though they were- We ran a real process. Yeah. And, and but Bendigo were in that process, and they got to see it, and they were like, "Oh my God."
315
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We should do this Why are we doing this? What are we missing out on here? Yeah, yeah Um, and maybe we should acquire it.
316
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And so they made us an offer that was, I would say, nowhere near as good as the other offers we'd been made, but it's the right home for Up- Mm...
317
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given the 10-year relationship, given that they had this community focus of doing good, b- you know, giving- Mm-hmm... something back, um, that, you know, they're, they're the, they're the disruptor, you know?
318
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They're not one of the big four, um, so they're disrupting. Mm. They're the fifth biggest. Um, ev- all the ingredients just seemed right.
319
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You know, we'd worked with them for a decade, so there were established relationships. The CEO was the sponsor of the project. Yeah. Um, you know, we'd worked on the risk committee.
320
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Um, you know, I was already a shareholder. I've been a shareholder of the bank since they listed 30 years ago. Mm.
321
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And so everything about it just seemed like it was, like, the right fit, even though they weren't offering as much money as others would pay. Mm. Um, and one- Many wouldn't do that.
322
00:43:03.124 --> 00:43:11.984
Well, one of the lessons I learned was that my business partner, Tommo, I always say it's his story to tell, not... I won't tell his story, but I'll tell you from my perspective, he's 20 years older than me. Mm.
323
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I learnt so much from him- Mm... just of his wisdom and his experience. Mm.
324
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And so one of the things he said to me, which I've never forgotten, I, I, I live this value today, is, you know, you gotta exit at the right time.
325
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You've gotta exit to the right company, the right person, the right investor. Mm. And it needs to be done so that there's something still on the table for them. Yeah. And, and that makes a lot of sense.
326
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And so, you know, we, we, we... Well, I would say we... th- I think you can do it as a private company is that when we sold Aconex as a public company,
327
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I think Oracle was a good home for, for Aconex, but was it the best home? I don't know. But we couldn't have taken a lower offer anyway as a public company 'cause of the- No... fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.
328
00:43:53.784 --> 00:44:01.304
Yeah, difficult. Difficult So you can't really wait. Yeah. You know, uh, is the product gonna do better there? Are they better people? This and that and other things. So we ended up...
329
00:44:01.904 --> 00:44:07.324
Well, I think, uh, Oracle I still think is a good home for Aconex, but we couldn't... I don't think we could've gone anywhere else anyway 'cause they had the highest offer on the table.
330
00:44:07.364 --> 00:44:19.744
Well, also, like, you know, shit happens, as they say. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the economic climate was such that the company that made us the best offer for acquisition got acquired themselves and canceled the offer. Oh.
331
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Um, th- another company who said they would lead the round, then they said they would acquire us partially, then they said they'd acquire us completely. Yeah.
332
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Um, they, um, dragged their feet, and the reason they dragged their feet was they were shopping around looking for other things, too. Mm. Um, they ended up acquiring someone else.
333
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Um, and so, you know, you're in that situation where it's not just about the money, it's about, will our 10-year employees, some of them 20-year employees, will they still have a job? Um- Yeah...
334
00:44:46.644 --> 00:44:58.924
uh, you know, as it turned out- Yeah... we had 63 people, and 2 people left to create a new company, so 61 moved over. Five years later, 55 of those 61 people were still working there. Wow. And we had a...
335
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We've got now an independent subsidiary of the bank that has its own head count, its own budget, its own executive team. The CEO of the bank sits on the executive of, of, of Bendigo Bank.
336
00:45:08.524 --> 00:45:19.744
So, like, it was just a really good- Mm... sale structure- Mm... a really good, um, uh, c- continuity for the employees, and it gave us the freedom and the independence to operate the way that we wanted to operate.
337
00:45:19.784 --> 00:45:28.984
We're very agile. We're delivering software 10 times a day to production. Mm. Um, how do you get acquired by that? Are you still involved? Well, I, I'm still a shareholder of Bendigo Bank. Yeah.
338
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But you're not involved day-to-day. But, like, day-to-day, I just... Mm. Uh, for three years, I was on the advisory board- Right, on the advisory... after sale- Yeah... and now we're five years post-sale.
339
00:45:36.644 --> 00:45:50.404
I, I'm not involved day-to-day. Not involved, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I became a customer of Up years ago when it came out. I loved it, uh, very cool. But the, the way I found Up wasn't through advertising or anything.
340
00:45:50.464 --> 00:45:59.084
It was a friend saying, "You gotta check this out." Yeah. Like, and I have a friend, to this day he's still the biggest fan of Up. He does everything on it.
341
00:45:59.504 --> 00:46:09.184
And, but he was going around the office, like, proselytizing Up back in the day, and there's like... it's like you captured lightning in a bottle there. Oh, yeah. Like, you just had this- He's eye glassed...
342
00:46:09.244 --> 00:46:20.424
this love for your product. And to me, it felt like you brought together, like, a really cool, like, compelling brand, but then the product experience was fantastic.
343
00:46:20.464 --> 00:46:29.564
Like, the onboarding experience was like, oh, my God, a big bank can be like this? Yeah. Like, this is like- Seconds to none. Yeah, like within, I don't know, it felt like...
344
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I can't remember, but it felt to me like 5 or 10 minutes I had, you know, a, an account with Apple Pay and the card on my phone, and, like, that was just a game changer. So you obviously have this...
345
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You've, you've built this ability to, to bring together brand and product and great user experience, um, to really nail that, nail that, um, that market. Is that coming from you? Do you have a deep love of building
346
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beautiful product experiences and brand? Do you have... Is that particular people in your team? Like, how did you bring that together? Yeah, I mean, I have a massive passion for that. Mm.
347
00:47:02.804 --> 00:47:14.084
Um, but there's, uh, there's just amazing people that we've, um, carried through. Yeah. And when I trace it back, two people from the record company ended up at Up- Yeah... which was 22 years later. Yeah.
348
00:47:14.164 --> 00:47:26.664
Um, and, uh, tho- those two people had a massive impact on the culture and a massive impact, um, on h- how we built stuff. But we also, um- Did you actually do something different? I mean, in the sense that- Oh, yeah...
349
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we've got product teams, you know, you try and understand the customer, but did you try and reinvent it? Did you speak- 100%, 100%. Like, we were the first to do nearly everything in banking in Australia- Mm...
350
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in the world sometimes, so- But would you... Did you have a view that the customer knew what they want? No, no. Or you said they didn't know, therefore we'll- They don't know. They don't know... yeah, they don't know.
351
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Yeah We have a philosophy that there's, there's three... I call it the buckets of shit, but you can call it requirements if you like.
352
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[laughs] There's three, like, pools of things that you need to consider as a product person, and one of those is all of the requirements, the laws, the, the rules, the, the, the technical capabilities, um- Yeah...
353
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the legislation. Like, you know, these are, these are core requirements that have to be delivered, the business requirements, you know. Yeah. Then there's all the things that customers come up with and think they want.
354
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Yeah. And then there's your imaginings, your ideation, your internal ideas, disruption, innovation, creativity. Yeah, yeah.
355
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But those three things- So the strength of that product was the third bucket, was, uh, where you could- Yeah, because it was disproportionately prioritized. Yeah.
356
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So, so we would, we would deprioritize, uh, or we would find solutions for a regulatory solution or a regulatory problem, rather than filling in a physical form- We would do a digital form Mm-hmm...
357
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we would automate the form, we would eliminate the form, we'd make it invisible, you know? So- Mm-hmm...
358
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:43.320
so you'd try to, um, uh, prioritize the ideation over, say, the customer requirements over the business requirements. The business requirements are just mandatory things. They're like table stakes. They've gotta be done.
359
00:48:43.700 --> 00:48:52.900
And so for us, it was like I read the legislation. Mm-hmm. Like, just read it- Mm-hmm... understand it. Mm-hmm. And then you know what? Most banks in Australia, the people that work there have never read it. Mm-hmm.
360
00:48:52.940 --> 00:49:01.300
And it- Yeah. And, and, and so if you, if you, if you're fastidious and do that... I, just to answer the question- Mm-hmm... there were some key people. Our brand father, we call him. Mm-hmm.
361
00:49:01.460 --> 00:49:10.220
Um, he, he, um, uh- [laughs] Oh, my God... you know, he created the triangle, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, and he, uh... You know, before him, like I was working with our first designer- Mm-hmm...
362
00:49:10.240 --> 00:49:16.500
on the brand, and we made a custom font, but it was just the letters UP. Yeah. It was just, yeah. Yeah. And before that we had a, another brand called Alt.
363
00:49:16.540 --> 00:49:22.040
And then, and then we got a new designer, uh, and he brought a whole new perspective, uh, because she went on maternity.
364
00:49:22.080 --> 00:49:29.780
And so, you know, we got this new designer and, and, and he ended up, like basically asking me a question. I remember the whiteboard session. Mm. Like, like you can't forget it.
365
00:49:29.860 --> 00:49:41.280
You've got the brand father, you had the chief imaginer- Mm... and the head of design. And the head of design says, "Something's not right. Like, do we wanna be a bank or do we wanna build an app that people love?"
366
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:51.060
And I said, "Well, tell me what you mean." And he wrote on the whiteboard like a sort of, a, a sort of Gartner sort of drawing or whatever- Mm-hmm... and said, "Where, where are all the banks?"
367
00:49:51.220 --> 00:49:58.520
You know, and the banks are down the bottom. The user experience is horrible. Yeah. The branding's pretty bad. It's very corporate. They treat you like a number. Customer service is no good. Mm.
368
00:49:58.520 --> 00:50:04.020
You know, all that sort of stuff. And what are the apps that people love? And if you look at the home screen back then of, of people's phone- Mm...
369
00:50:04.540 --> 00:50:14.540
uh, they had all their favorite apps and they were TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, um, uh, you know, Gmail, um, you know, like all, all these apps- Yeah... that people just love. Spotify. And Spotify- Yeah...
370
00:50:14.560 --> 00:50:23.740
this sort of stuff. Yeah. So, so he said to me, "Do we wanna compete with CommBank, Westpac, NAB, ANZ, Macquarie, ING, or do we wanna compete for people's attention?
371
00:50:24.100 --> 00:50:32.920
Do we wanna build a brand that people love more than they love Spotify, more than they love Snapchat?" Mm. Like, can we do that? Mm. And I'm like, that was the moment for me- Mm...
372
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:43.260
that was like, we're not building a bank, we're building financial literacy- Yeah... for the next generation of Australians, and we're using our ability to solve problems with software. Yeah.
373
00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:54.560
Our ability to build a customer experience that the world has never seen. Yeah. So, you know, we were the first to host in the cloud. Mm. But that meant our costs per annum were less than...
374
00:50:54.760 --> 00:51:04.440
[Siri beeps] [laughs] She's... All right, Siri. [laughs] Yeah. Siri's bringing it up. Somebody's app's just taken over. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Um, but our cost of, of, of acquiring a customer and our cost, cost of,
375
00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:16.220
uh, retaining a customer in a year, for a traditional bank, they'd spend between 400 and 800 bucks to acquire a customer, depending on the type of account. Yeah. And then they would spend 1,700 y- a year to retain them.
376
00:51:16.520 --> 00:51:26.080
Really? Mm. So we would spend less than $10 to acquire them- Yeah... and then 16 cents to retain them. To retain, yeah. And so the, the, the- You gave them a great experience... the, the economies of, uh- Yeah...
377
00:51:26.200 --> 00:51:37.040
scale and the, uh, and, and the, the sort of opportunities were extraordinary. But one of the ways we did that was we worked with Google- Mm... to be the first bank in the world hosted on GCP. We worked...
378
00:51:37.080 --> 00:51:40.700
And then we could use Kubernetes na- native, you know, for our deployments, our real-time deployments.
379
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:52.300
And then we, um, we did a, we did a partnership with Apple to launch, um, instant issuance in Australia, and you're like, whatever. Mm. Um, uh, ANZ launched with Apple Pay, and they got 800,000 new customers. Yeah.
380
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:59.560
Well done. Pat on the back. We launched with instant issuance, and you could sign up an account in less than two minutes. Yeah. Now, no one had been able to do that before in Australia. Mm.
381
00:51:59.600 --> 00:52:08.040
So, so there were so many world firsts, so many Australian firsts. We were like, we weren't building a bank. Yeah. We were building something that would help people with their money. I'll give you another example.
382
00:52:08.560 --> 00:52:17.240
Money is tangible to older people. It's coins in your pocket. Yeah. It's, it's a r- it's a roll of notes. It's a wallet. Yeah. It's thing... You know, like a physical, like- Yeah...
383
00:52:17.260 --> 00:52:27.780
leather wallet, and it weighs your pocket down, and you've gotta take it out and hand it over to the shopkeeper. For the next generation of Australians, that didn't exist. Yeah. We had 89% of point of sale was digital.
384
00:52:28.160 --> 00:52:35.820
Mm. Like the highest in the world. Mm. Um, we have, um, uh, electronic currency and real-time transfer of money that is ubiquitous. Yeah.
385
00:52:36.060 --> 00:52:44.560
So the next generation of Australians didn't know that money had weight, that it was tangible, and we were thinking, "Well, how do you use your senses, the senses of the body?" Mm.
386
00:52:44.560 --> 00:52:54.800
Whether it's sight, whether it's, uh, sound- Mm... whether it's feeling, how do you use those senses to, to create a tactile, tangible, um, representation of money? And so we have haptic feedback in the app.
387
00:52:55.180 --> 00:53:04.340
Like if you get money and you pay someone money, it hits your account and you can feel it- Yeah. Yeah... hitting your account. Yeah. And so we tried to make the money tangible. If you pay for something- Mm...
388
00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:10.100
you get a push notification and, and your phone vibrates. Yeah. Um, and so you feel like, "Oh my God, I just paid for that pizza."
389
00:53:10.460 --> 00:53:19.380
Um, these were things that no other bank had done, not just in Australia, but anywhere in the world. Yeah. And cust- y- your customer isn't asking for that. No. So you're not...
390
00:53:20.060 --> 00:53:25.600
You're, you're prioritizing the imagining, the ideation. You're, you're imagining and then taking it out- Yeah... and then seeing what works. Yeah. And, and, and we...
391
00:53:25.720 --> 00:53:32.860
Because we were deploying software to production 10 times a day, it's essentially continuous deployment. We could just- Okay... iterate and iterate and iterate, and we could- Yeah...
392
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:41.320
release software to 1,000 customers or 10 customers or a million customers and get their feedback. So we'd start with- So you could A/B test all sorts of things. Yeah, A/B test everything- Yeah...
393
00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:50.320
but in real time with real customers in production. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet your customers remember that haptic feedback part so much more than pretty much any other feature of the app. Of course. Right? Yeah.
394
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:55.280
But the funny thing is that it's almost subconscious to them, and now they expect it. Yeah. They expect it from every other bank.
395
00:53:55.480 --> 00:54:06.800
Like when we did push notifications, they expected it from Revolut, they expected it from Monzo. Yeah. They expected it from N26. We, we, we- Mm... created something even before Up, um, and it's called the activity feed.
396
00:54:07.160 --> 00:54:11.960
Mm. And it's just a continuous feed of all your financial and your non-financial transactions.
397
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:23.020
Now, before we built that, we went and did a, a demo of it in Barcelona, and, uh, we were in Paris and London and stuff, um, back in 2012. Um, and it's before all these digital banks launched. Mm.
398
00:54:23.040 --> 00:54:29.640
And every bank in the world had... The landing page was your accounts page. Yeah. You know, you open it- Yeah... it's on your accounts, and you choose your account, and you'd perform an action.
399
00:54:29.900 --> 00:54:35.860
There's your balance, yeah. And, and there was a self-fulfilling prophecy where everyone said, "But the accounts page is the most popular page." And I'm like, "But it's the landing page." Yeah.
400
00:54:35.860 --> 00:54:41.980
"So of course it's the most popular page." [laughs] Like, you know? And so we, we- It can't not be. Yeah... No. So we created this thing called an activity feed- Mm...
401
00:54:42.020 --> 00:54:50.236
and then we launched it with Bendigo before we had built Up. You know, we launched it for their- Mm... for their internet banking, and it was such a massive hit- Um, and we A/B test everything.
402
00:54:50.556 --> 00:54:59.076
It became so popular that no one wanted to land on the, uh, accounts page anymore. Mm. They wanted to go directly to their money. Why? Because it was like Snapchat, Instagram, TikTok, uh- Mm...
403
00:54:59.156 --> 00:55:05.176
uh, Facebook, Twitter, all these apps were just a, a, an infinite scrolling app. Yeah. And suddenly- Yeah... your bank was that too. Mm. Yeah.
404
00:55:05.196 --> 00:55:15.356
And so now I can tell you this, there is not a bank in the world now, today- Mm-hmm... there is not a digital bank that launches today that doesn't have an infinitely scrolling activity feed as the landing page. Mm.
405
00:55:15.396 --> 00:55:23.176
And so it's not- I think my bank might not have that. [laughs] Yeah. It's a pretty old school bank. You are, yeah. But do you know what I mean? [laughs] Like, those are the sort of things that it's not- [coughs]...
406
00:55:23.216 --> 00:55:32.816
it's not that we patented it, or that we- Yeah... protected it, or that we're even proud of doing it. We just got on with business and we had a massive influence. We put our cards, um- Mm... uh, vertically.
407
00:55:33.196 --> 00:55:39.356
Well, why did we do that? Or why did we make the physical card vertical? To fit the phone, yeah. So it would fit on the phone, right? Mm-hmm. And when you tap your phone, you're tapping it vertically.
408
00:55:39.396 --> 00:55:45.916
You're not turning your phone around and tapping it horizontally. And so we did that. Now, when Starling did that in the UK three years later- Mm...
409
00:55:46.216 --> 00:55:51.636
um, it was worldwide news, you know, that they're giving customers something new and innovative and all this other stuff. But we'd done that down here. We were the first to do it.
410
00:55:51.636 --> 00:56:00.556
So do you just mean, when you say it's vertical, you just mean- Yeah... the, the- The card is not horizontal like a normal card. It's twisted this way and it's vertical. And so the branding- Right...
411
00:56:00.596 --> 00:56:05.216
and the numbers, everything on the card- So all, everything's oriented-... is oriented-... like portrait, portrait not landscape... in a different way. Portrait, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wow.
412
00:56:05.256 --> 00:56:13.556
Now- And, and- I do have one of my cards is portrait now. Well, now they're- Yeah... now nearly all Australian banks are issuing portrait cards now. Yeah. And Up was the first. We're the first with Mastercard. Yeah.
413
00:56:13.776 --> 00:56:20.916
And so before all these other banks were doing it, you know, we're doing... So we're just doing things because it felt right. Yeah. We're just doing things because we'd try it and people would love it.
414
00:56:21.476 --> 00:56:31.096
So why did you sell then? What do... So what... I mean, you know, you need to raise money, so I often have this debate with founders, what, when is the right time to sell? Mm. Should you sell, shouldn't you?
415
00:56:31.456 --> 00:56:38.976
Um, you know, in Apex I didn't really wanna sell. I love what I was doing, but we had a responsibility to shareholders, so we did. Why did you do that? We sold, we sold very early. Yeah.
416
00:56:38.996 --> 00:56:47.916
And well, like, but it was 10 years in our journey. Still 10 years. Yeah. Uh, it was- Now-... three years in the journey of Up, but it was 10 years in our journey. It was very early. Um, pa- part of it was
417
00:56:49.256 --> 00:57:01.436
that we were kind of done with the disruption. We were kind of done with the- Mm... it was now growth. It was now, um, home loans. It was now new products. It wasn't the same disruption that we had created.
418
00:57:01.476 --> 00:57:08.416
And those people I mentioned around the whiteboard- Mm... those are the people that have followed us through many companies. Those are the people where I'm now funding their companies. Yeah.
419
00:57:08.496 --> 00:57:15.596
Um, those are the people that, you know- Great... just want something new and fresh to bite into. Mm. And most people stayed until year 14, year 15. Yeah.
420
00:57:15.996 --> 00:57:24.636
Um, and, uh, a- and now the people that have left to start their new companies, we're the first check. Mm. So I think, like, for me, I, I joke and say 20- Did it feel like the right...
421
00:57:24.716 --> 00:57:34.356
Was it- It just felt like the right time. Yeah. 2022, so we sold in 2021. Yeah. 2022 was, I call it peak Dom, because I won three awards as, um, Fintech Leader of the Year- Mm...
422
00:57:34.436 --> 00:57:41.056
for three different, like, industry bodies or whatever, and one was CEO of the Year, and the other two were Fintech Leader of the Year, whatever. Mm. But it's basically three awards saying I'm a good leader.
423
00:57:41.716 --> 00:57:51.196
But 2025, I won Australian Investor of the Year. Yeah. And so I'd sort of transitioned from building and disrupting- Building to... Mm-hmm... to now helping others to build and disrupt.
424
00:57:51.376 --> 00:57:59.976
And I'm 20 years younger than Tomo, and Tomo and I were the two shareholders. Yeah. So, you know- Mm... like, the time was right for Tomo. His kids were all grown up and- Yeah, yeah...
425
00:58:00.036 --> 00:58:08.056
you know, like, I mean, d- you know, he went on to start, like, Ferocia Mark Two. Yeah. Mm. And so I think- Yeah... um, the timing was right for us as shareholders. Yeah.
426
00:58:08.116 --> 00:58:17.156
Um, the timing was right for our staff and for their careers. Mm. Um, the, the timing was right for the bank. I mean, they were ripe for it because they wanted technical disruption, they wanted cultural disruption.
427
00:58:17.576 --> 00:58:25.616
You know, in, in the banking sector, it's all redundancies and closing down branches. So if you had the fastest growing digital bank in Australia- Yeah... I mean, that's an asset. Yeah.
428
00:58:25.636 --> 00:58:32.636
And in fact, it's become such an asset that it's, you know, the market cap now is billions more than it was when they bought it. So
429
00:58:33.556 --> 00:58:48.176
how did, uh, your experience with the exit of the grain trading company impact your decision-making around the exit at Up? Yeah. So we, we were fastidious contractually, and we were very bullish on terms. Yeah.
430
00:58:48.576 --> 00:58:56.376
And we didn't budge. Yeah. We cash up front only. Yeah. There's still an earn-out, though. Well, the earn-out- But, but there's structure... is like an optional. I'll tell you how it worked. It's hilarious.
431
00:58:56.416 --> 00:59:06.835
So the, the bank made an offer- Yeah... and then negotiation happened. And by the time, uh, by the time the deal was done, we essentially had taken the entire earn-out and to be paid up front.
432
00:59:06.916 --> 00:59:08.096
Everything was paid up front. Right.
433
00:59:08.616 --> 00:59:16.196
And of course, Tomo's an awesome negotiator, and Tomo went back in and said, "Now that we've got everything and it's all secure and the contracts are done, we're gonna be signing tomorrow.
434
00:59:16.716 --> 00:59:22.756
We, we need more because we've gotta pay the staff. You know, we've gotta look after our staff, we've gotta create this new program." Mm-hmm. "And then what about us?
435
00:59:22.976 --> 00:59:29.856
Like, you're buying this thing and we're not getting anything." And the bank were, like, shocked because they're like, "We're, we're paying the earn-out up front now." Yeah.
436
00:59:29.876 --> 00:59:40.056
So we end up in extended negotiations over 24 hours- Mm... about how you would create, um, uh, longevity and keep the staff and everything. And for the bank, it was a retention strategy. Mm.
437
00:59:40.076 --> 00:59:46.636
How do they keep the staff and keep them focused on making the bank profitable- Mm-hmm... um, because we weren't profitable at the time we sold.
438
00:59:47.036 --> 00:59:51.476
We were profitable- So the earn-out was really a retention of staff rather than- So it was really more retention of staff, and then- Mm...
439
00:59:51.476 --> 01:00:00.036
a little earn-out for us i- i- if some criteria were met that we had no control over. It was nothing to do with us. Like, you know, if you, if you could... And, and it's just on foot. We've got 30 more days to go. Yeah.
440
01:00:00.056 --> 01:00:09.016
We're five years in, so I won't go into the detail, but it was basically just saying there's, um, some, some products and some profitability metrics and some things that are really important to any bank- Mm. Yeah...
441
01:00:09.036 --> 01:00:15.676
especially a public bank, public company. Um, and so if those things are able to be achieved, which they weren't at the time of sale- Mm. Yeah...
442
01:00:16.036 --> 01:00:26.616
um, then, you know, uh, th- then there'll be an additional, um, additional bonus payment for us. Um, and it's really just a, an extra little reward that we had- Mm... no control over. Mm.
443
01:00:26.656 --> 01:00:28.656
Like, normally with an earn-out- Yeah... you're there- Yeah...
444
01:00:28.696 --> 01:00:36.696
you're employed, you're making decisions, you're recruiting people, you're building product, you're, you're, you're selling product, and you have some influence over it. Yeah. So it's not like your traditional earn-out.
445
01:00:36.736 --> 01:00:43.732
We got all the earn-out up front essentially. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's how it influenced it the most And... Okay. Because we, we, we wanted- Yeah...
446
01:00:44.052 --> 01:00:53.512
we wanted to make sure that every single staff member was rewarded, from the chef- Yeah... to the masseuse, to, like, literally everyone that had ever worked at the company was... got money out of the sale.
447
01:00:53.532 --> 01:01:00.012
[laughs] You had a masseuse? Yeah. Did you actually have a masseuse? Yeah. Oh, yeah, he, he, he, um, uh, he, he used to be- Sounds very start-upy...
448
01:01:00.132 --> 01:01:09.312
he used to be a, um, a, a, a fitness trainer and a, and a masseuse at, um, and, and, and a physio- [laughs]... a, a, at the St. Kilda Footy Club, right? Yeah, right. He was working as a masseuse in the company. Yeah.
449
01:01:09.352 --> 01:01:16.612
And so he was, he, he- Like full time... you know, but he did Pilates, Tai Chi- Ah... uh, Boxercising, uh- That guy's a all... yeah, he, he did everything. Yeah.
450
01:01:16.612 --> 01:01:23.052
Um, and he, and he was an absolute legend, and he still works there today. And you have a- Really?... have a chef as well. Uh, well, it was Tomo's eldest daughter. Right.
451
01:01:23.132 --> 01:01:25.872
Um, and she, she would call herself more of a cook than a chef. Right.
452
01:01:25.912 --> 01:01:33.832
Um, but you know, she'd been there since day one, and we wanted to make sure that just like everyone else, like- Did you do lunches for pe- Yeah, we, we had food for staff and, you know, we had, um...
453
01:01:34.132 --> 01:01:43.072
So, so we always wanted to look after the staff's physical and mental wellbeing. Mm. And so, uh, and so we, we had, uh, cultural, a lot of cultural sessions.
454
01:01:43.492 --> 01:01:53.272
We had non-mandatory, we call it Tomo Time, like in honor of Tomo- Mm... 'cause he's so awesome. So, so w- we, we, we, we would have, uh, Tomo Time every month, and it was non-mandatory attendance. Mm-hmm.
455
01:01:53.572 --> 01:02:03.352
100% attendance for 10 years. Like, unless you were sick. And what was that? And what, what, what happened in Tomo Time? Mate, like, like it's, Tomo Time was extraordinary. So a lot of the things that- [laughs] It was...
456
01:02:03.392 --> 01:02:08.212
A lot- Still don't know what happened in Tomo Time. [laughs] Well, it's Chatham House Rules. I'm waiting, mate. No, I'll tell you what happened. I'll tell you. I'm excited.
457
01:02:08.252 --> 01:02:15.912
So a lot- This is going live to the world, so, uh- Yeah. So, so a lot of the things that, um, that, that, that Tomo, uh, took from the corporate world into the football world- Mm-hmm...
458
01:02:15.912 --> 01:02:26.292
he was a, a AFL footy coach, um, things like a, um, a, you know, a, a, a, a, a multi-captain leadership, a rotating leadership, um, a, a leadership team. There was lots of different things- Yeah...
459
01:02:26.312 --> 01:02:32.352
that he took, sort of let's say from the corporate world- Mm... in- into the footy world, and now they're at all the winning clubs in, in, in AFL. Yeah, right.
460
01:02:32.432 --> 01:02:41.952
Um, and, and then he took that experience into the startup world. Mm-hmm. So I'm like the software developer, the product designer, you know, I'm the sort of entrepreneur, the 30,000 foot guy- Yeah. Yeah...
461
01:02:41.972 --> 01:02:51.712
you know, like this sort of disruptor. And then Tomo's bringing culture and team and strategy and this sort of stuff. Mm-hmm. And so w- in Tomo Time we would do things like Triple H, hero, hardship, highlight.
462
01:02:52.092 --> 01:03:00.772
And we would do stop, start, keep. Um, you know, we, we would, um, uh, we had a demo culture- Mm... so everybody would, um, demo. Yeah. It wouldn't matter if you were the chef or the cook, um- You'd demo something...
463
01:03:00.792 --> 01:03:06.452
you, you could demo something. Yeah. Everyone would demo. We do that at Colourful. Right. Yeah, and just have this, like- Yeah... um, iteration and, and, it, extraordinary stuff.
464
01:03:06.752 --> 01:03:13.712
And so, um, and so hero, hardship, highlight, it's, it's that person's private business, but it's very vulnerable.
465
01:03:13.752 --> 01:03:20.832
And I can tell you that, like, when I did, I did the first stop, start, keep, um, or maybe Tomo and I did it together. Um, and- So stop, start, keep being- And Tomo-...
466
01:03:20.832 --> 01:03:24.792
of, of the things you're doing today, what are you stopping- Yeah, Tomo-... what are you starting with? Yeah. And Tomo would stand in front of the entire team- Mm...
467
01:03:24.812 --> 01:03:35.172
and by that stage we might've been, I don't know, 20 people, 30 people, whatever, and everyone would tell Tomo what to stop doing, what to start doing, and what to keep doing. Oh. And Tomo...
468
01:03:35.352 --> 01:03:45.092
Like when I did my, uh, hero, hardship, highlight, I was in tears. I did the first one. And I stood up and talked about bad shit that happened in my childhood, um, and shared that with the team.
469
01:03:45.132 --> 01:03:57.712
And Tomo said, um, "In the footy club, you stand in a, in a, in a change room- Mm... um, nude in the shower, um, with other blokes, um, and you're very vulnerable. And you'd never do that in a corporate environment."
470
01:03:57.752 --> 01:04:00.652
But that, that vulnerability- [laughs] Except in Finland... right, yeah.
471
01:04:00.652 --> 01:04:09.952
[laughs] But, but, but that vulnerability where you get up and you share something, and it w- could be a work thing, it could be a personal thing, whatever it is, and you say, "Well, this was the hardest thing that happened to me in my life."
472
01:04:10.192 --> 01:04:21.192
Yeah. For some people, the hardest thing that happened in their life was they fell off their bicycle. Mm-hmm. For other people, there's rape, there's murder, there's, um, depression, there's cancer- Mm-hmm...
473
01:04:21.212 --> 01:04:32.552
there's all these horrible things that happens in people's lives. And people would get up and tell these stories, and the entire company would be in tears. And you, you imagine going to work the next day- Mm...
474
01:04:32.712 --> 01:04:39.792
after finding out what had happened to someone in their childhood- Mm... or what had happened to someone when their entire village was raped and murdered. Mm.
475
01:04:39.992 --> 01:04:46.452
Like, you imagine that you just thought that was just a person. You know, just thought that was someone coming to the office every day- Mm. Mm... and just getting about it.
476
01:04:46.792 --> 01:04:56.752
And, and for people that live a privileged lifestyle, that are in, you know- Mm... a, a great country like Australia, that have got a great job and all that other stuff, um, you just think they're normal people.
477
01:04:56.791 --> 01:05:02.952
And they are normal people, but a lot of people have been through a lot of heartache- Yeah, yeah, sure... to get to where they are. And so the vulnerability of sharing that- Mm...
478
01:05:02.972 --> 01:05:11.572
with the team, um, every month during Tomo Time, it was voluntary. No one had to do it. And yet everyone volunt- every month for 10 years, someone volunteered to do it.
479
01:05:11.612 --> 01:05:19.352
So somebody would do it, it'd be one person every month that would- Well, sometimes it'd be more than one person, but generally people would do it time and time again because it's cathartic. Mm.
480
01:05:19.492 --> 01:05:27.112
Um, and it builds a team culture- So what-... that's extraordinary... what does it build? Is it the bond between people? Yeah, absolutely. Like, can you imagine- Yeah...
481
01:05:27.132 --> 01:05:32.852
working late or a weekend or something to try and hit a deadline and, you know, and, and build some new feature or get something in the- Yeah...
482
01:05:32.872 --> 01:05:42.092
App Store or whatever it is, but the person you're sitting next to is, kind of feels like you know them better than you know your best mate? Mm. You know them better than you know your life partner. Culture.
483
01:05:42.092 --> 01:05:51.432
Like that, that creates an extraordinary culture. Does it, on the flip side, does it make it harder to let someone go that's not performing because you, you feel- I mean, it was very hard to let people go...
484
01:05:51.432 --> 01:05:54.692
so personally attached? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's always hard- But-... but does that make it harder?
485
01:05:54.712 --> 01:06:06.072
Yeah, uh, I think it does, but again, Tomo had these amazing experiences, and one of the rules that we had, this, uh, they probably still have it, maybe they don't because the bank have different rules, but, but one of the things we had was whenever we're exiting someone- Mm...
486
01:06:06.112 --> 01:06:18.372
rather than if they quit or if we terminated them- Yeah... r- rather than them, um, working their earn out, you know, working their, um, their, their- Yeah... leave period or whatever, um, the day that we agree- Yeah...
487
01:06:18.432 --> 01:06:25.192
that you're no longer gonna be working here, you walk to the door. You, we have a- Yeah... celebration. We go out for lunch with the whole team- Mm... and everything, and then it's a weight off their shoulders.
488
01:06:25.232 --> 01:06:31.452
They don't have to be hanging around for three months- Yeah... not doing anything- I agree. Yeah, that's horrible... and all that stuff. Yeah. And it seemed really controversial when Tomo first mentioned it.
489
01:06:31.812 --> 01:06:40.332
It was one of the great things about working- Yeah... at Ferocia is that you knew the day you were done, you were done. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and people were just relieved. It seems like you've had a very-
490
01:06:41.420 --> 01:06:51.000
Um, high retention though over the- Extraordinary Yeah. And I- Extraordinary... I expect that my strong culture should- We, we, we, we used to publish- Yeah... on our front page of our website, of the bank- Yeah...
491
01:06:51.220 --> 01:06:57.460
every single person that had ever worked at the company and every person that had left. Mm. And we'd, we had a thank you- It's extraordinary...
492
01:06:57.500 --> 01:07:09.400
on the homepage to all the people that helped us build it, and there were only ever 27 people on there. In that whole time- That had left... 27 people had left. Yeah, right. We only had 63 people. Wow. Yeah.
493
01:07:09.460 --> 01:07:16.140
So like, it was extraordinary. So you've got this great culture. We're ta- we're wanting to ask you about the ha- you had one hard day at work. Other,
494
01:07:17.060 --> 01:07:27.040
even though you've got that great culture, presumably there were still some pretty shitty days. Oh, yeah. What's one or two of the hardest days? I mean, we had to fire two- Worst days at the office...
495
01:07:27.080 --> 01:07:39.660
we had to fire two people because they were, um, working on a side project that was in breach of the regulations. They were working on a side project that, um, on company time. Mm-hmm.
496
01:07:39.700 --> 01:07:45.080
And we had a philosophy that anyone could do anything and we would invest any IP. Yeah. We would support them, we'd invest in them.
497
01:07:45.120 --> 01:07:54.060
We'd, they could work on it at work and all this other stuff, and they just took advantage of us. Mm. And we were so generous, um, and they just fleeced us. Um, and so we had to have- Mm...
498
01:07:54.060 --> 01:08:02.360
a conversation with them to say, "Look, we've done an investigation, and we know what you're doing, and it's completely inappropriate. And all you had to do was be honest with us.
499
01:08:02.500 --> 01:08:07.800
Just tell us that this is what you want to do, and we would've said to you, you can't do that here because of- Mm... the relationship- Yeah...
500
01:08:07.820 --> 01:08:15.420
we have with the bank, because of the contracts we have, because being a material outsource provider," all that sort of stuff. Yeah. "We can't have our staff working in that industry- Yes... on this thing." Mm.
501
01:08:15.420 --> 01:08:25.460
Um, and it's just, it's almost common sense. But you know, they persisted, and so we had to fire them. Um, uh, I wouldn't say that- Did you do that? Tomo do that? Who, who did that? Tomo and I usually do it together.
502
01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:35.320
Yeah. Um, you know, we had a- I think it's a, a mark of a good founder. Uh, it annoys me when some, some businesses, the leaders don't do the hard stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like, get HR to do it. Well, we- Yes...
503
01:08:35.340 --> 01:08:41.960
we, we, we didn't really have HR. Um, we, everyone was an engineer, and then me and Tomo. [laughs] Yeah. Um, so, so we didn't really have like a middle management.
504
01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:54.320
But, but we, we had, another rule that we had was that nobody in that 10 years was recruited unless Tomo or I had met them. Mm. And so we'd meet them on the way in and do the final sort of cultural sign-off.
505
01:08:54.360 --> 01:09:01.180
We didn't have to be in all the interviewing and the- Yeah... testing and all this other stuff. But we had to meet them and do the, the final cultural sign-off before they became part of the team. Yeah.
506
01:09:01.200 --> 01:09:10.680
And then everyone had a long dated, um, uh, probation. Um, and we only ever had one person leave during probation, uh, and they left because they decided they wanted to build a different business. Yeah.
507
01:09:10.780 --> 01:09:23.420
Um, a- and, and, and everyone stayed. And then Tomo and I would usually, um, be the people that would, um, see them on their way out if they resigned or terminate them if they, if, if termination was required. Yeah.
508
01:09:23.480 --> 01:09:30.360
Um, and, and, and so- Yeah, I think that's really important... I think the, the founders being that involved in it- You have to... uh, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's part of the culture. Yeah.
509
01:09:30.380 --> 01:09:37.420
Like Tomo used to say again, "The fish rots from the head." Yeah. You've gotta lead by example. I've got other things, like- You can't shy away from the hard stuff as a founder...
510
01:09:37.440 --> 01:09:42.440
sometimes things are hard, but there's a lesson. Yeah, yeah. I've got one I'd, I'd love to share with you, which is- Mm...
511
01:09:42.540 --> 01:09:52.000
um, uh, in the early days, um, we, we had an office in South Melbourne, and it was being gentrified South Melbourne, so there were people, like, sleeping on the street. Yeah. And there were drugs and things. Yeah, right.
512
01:09:52.020 --> 01:09:58.120
But at the same time there were beautiful, like, you know, renovated buildings- Mm... and coffee shops and, you know, all this sort of stuff. Mm.
513
01:09:58.140 --> 01:10:04.720
And so, um, and so there were, yeah, some people that were, um, uh, destitute and they'd hang out in the car park.
514
01:10:04.860 --> 01:10:11.160
And so if you'd park in the car in the morning and you'd come in the back door, sometimes you'd see a needle or some drugs or, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah.
515
01:10:11.180 --> 01:10:17.860
And you'd think, "Oh my God, like this is, this is pretty crap." And Tomo was really worried about, about the staff and making sure we had security and protected the staff.
516
01:10:18.340 --> 01:10:27.800
Anyway, what, what, one day, um, uh, somebody, you'd call him an undesirable- Mm... had defecated on the back step of the- No... of the office. God.
517
01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:39.580
Um, and the thing for me was that, uh, when I got to the office, I saw that, and so I went and got a bit of cardboard, and I picked it up and I put it in the bin and I washed it down and I just tidied it up, and then I went about my day.
518
01:10:40.040 --> 01:10:50.640
That was it. It was a bit disappointing that someone would do that, but I thought, you know, like you gotta- Mm... you gotta- Got to deal with it... clean up the shit. Um, anyway, they'd captured it on the CCTV. Mm.
519
01:10:50.660 --> 01:11:00.820
And because they were fastidious about security, we reviewed all the footage every day of what it, you know, what had happened. And our head of, um, uh, system operations had seen me cleaning up the shit. Mm.
520
01:11:01.080 --> 01:11:11.240
Um, and it became, uh, like a meme. Oh. [laughs] Like it was this like- It was, Dom-... if Dom can clean up the shit- [laughs]... you can wash your fucking dishes. Yeah. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear. No.
521
01:11:11.340 --> 01:11:21.020
[laughs] But you can, you can clean your desk before you leave. Yeah, yeah. You know, you can take pride in being part of this team. Yeah. Um, and, and everybody should do that. So it's hard- I totally agree...
522
01:11:21.080 --> 01:11:28.980
it's hard, like- Yeah... doing that sometimes and like, you know, whether it's cleaning the toilet or emptying the fridge with food that's been there for months or, you know- Yeah... some of those things there.
523
01:11:29.020 --> 01:11:37.380
But you know, you have to do them as a founder so that you're saying it's okay for everyone to do this. Yeah. We recently found a used needle at our back door, and I said, "I don't want anyone...
524
01:11:37.440 --> 01:11:44.740
I'll clean, I'll go sort that out. I don't want any staff to have to go-" Yeah, don't... anywhere near that." Yeah. It's the same thing, right? That's the sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
525
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:53.160
So, so I'd say that, um- Yeah, it's back in the day t- it's all the little things. Just you, you... I think it's, I think that's uniquely, maybe not uniquely, but I think it's quite an Australian thing too. Yeah.
526
01:11:54.020 --> 01:12:03.440
I found, and I hope that there's companies in the US that are like that. I'm sure there are, but I found there is much more hierarchy. In Australia, I think that founder being in the trenches, be like a footy team. Yeah.
527
01:12:03.500 --> 01:12:09.460
You're sort of all in there together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that's probably, um... M- money was the other trouble.
528
01:12:09.500 --> 01:12:17.820
Like when, when, when it's a, when, when you've gotta make payroll, w- we, I used to- But you didn't have... You have a long build time to get to market. Yeah.
529
01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:25.080
So you're not, you don't have revenue coming in at that point. No, we never raised a cent. So Tomo and I had funded everything. Mm.
530
01:12:25.140 --> 01:12:33.960
And then the relationship with Bendigo and other banks eventually became our source of, of revenue. Yeah. And the revenue was, like, our funding. But the revenue was project related. That was it- Yeah... project related.
531
01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:39.460
And so sometimes- Yeah... um, we, we didn't have the money and we were like, back to the old days, we have to mortgage the house again.
532
01:12:40.060 --> 01:12:48.016
And, um, and, and you know, Tomo and I, um, never missed a payment, but- Sometimes we might have been a little bit late. Um- Yeah...
533
01:12:48.056 --> 01:13:00.176
and, and it was hard because, you know, I promised my wife after the court case that I would never, um, put the family home at risk. Mm. Yeah. And you have to. Yeah. Like, we've got no other asset. No. Yeah.
534
01:13:00.216 --> 01:13:11.776
So we probably mortgaged the family home five times. Mm. Mm. Um, and you just keep drawing down to... You know, I had a spreadsheet of every, we call them Ferocia babies, like every kid that was born of the Ferocias.
535
01:13:11.816 --> 01:13:21.696
[laughs] Their partner's name, their dog, their cat, you know, their parents. Um, and it got to the point when you're more than 15, 20, 50 people, I can't remember all that, so I kept them in a spreadsheet.
536
01:13:22.916 --> 01:13:32.356
When we were doing the, um, you know, the sort of, uh, sale, we were looking at the spreadsheet and saying like, "This is the people." Mm. Like, the, you know, this is what it's about. Mm.
537
01:13:32.356 --> 01:13:40.136
[clears throat] Like, for them to pay their mortgage each month- Yeah... like, we're, we're responsible for that. Like, we're taking on board that risk. Yeah. And there are people that don't wanna take on that risk.
538
01:13:40.176 --> 01:13:48.996
Like, we've got some of the best software developers we've ever worked with in the world, they don't wanna be a founder. They, they, they want to have a salary- Yeah... and they just wanna- Yeah... build great software.
539
01:13:49.056 --> 01:13:59.596
Yeah. And we had this sorta mantra, "Build great shit with great people in a great environment." Yeah. And we did everything we could to make the environment great. We had fantastic facilities. We provided meals.
540
01:13:59.636 --> 01:14:09.676
We had Friday afternoons off. We had no work hours. We could work remote. Like, we did everything we could to make it the most amazing place where- Yeah... you're leaving home with your family- Mm...
541
01:14:09.756 --> 01:14:17.336
in, from your house, the place you live and love with your partner, to come to an office. Why? Like, it's, there's gotta be some reason that you wanna come there. Mm-hmm.
542
01:14:17.396 --> 01:14:27.716
So we tried to make the environment as best as we could. Um, and we also were fastidious about making sure that the product was something that we're all proud of. Yeah. And we used to say that the barometer- Mm...
543
01:14:27.836 --> 01:14:38.956
of whether we were winning was not customer growth or revenue or anything like that, it was if you're on a tram in Melbourne, and you look over someone's shoulder and they're using your bank. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.
544
01:14:39.116 --> 01:14:46.936
Like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Like, when we, when we had money after we were part of the Bendigo thing and we, we could buy the tram, you know? And we could put ads- Mm... on the tram and everything.
545
01:14:46.976 --> 01:14:55.196
But we, we sort of- I remember that... thought that was almost ironic because the dr- the driver for us was that people would ride their bike to the office, or they'd jump on a tram, and if they saw a Roc- Yeah...
546
01:14:55.236 --> 01:15:02.056
poster or if they saw someone using our app, that was like, they'd, they'd s- Mm... at standup- Yeah... they'd tell everyone. That used to happen- You know?... to us at Cloud Guru- It's pride, you know...
547
01:15:02.076 --> 01:15:08.836
where we'd, we'd see people on the train- Yeah... tra- taking our training courses on the way to work. And you're like- So cool. Yeah... this is the best thing ever. Yeah. Yeah.
548
01:15:08.876 --> 01:15:16.756
Yeah, for Aconex, it was the same buildings that were using Aconex, so we could actually peg them around the city and- Yeah... um, yeah. No, uh, it's the- But very physically-... impact. Yeah.
549
01:15:17.156 --> 01:15:25.216
It's just something about, yeah, seeing your baby in the real world having impact that is- Yeah... just so motivating. It's so, so, so important. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, like I, I,
550
01:15:26.256 --> 01:15:34.376
I, I just say to Tomo that, you know, we saw so many weddings, and we saw so many mortgages, people buying houses. By the end- Mm...
551
01:15:34.496 --> 01:15:45.956
when we sold the company, people were buying investment properties, and people had, you know, paying for their kids to go to a private school. And like- Mm... to go from nothing to then be able to create that- Yeah...
552
01:15:46.156 --> 01:15:56.236
is just... There's nothing else like it. We had two, at least two that I know of, Cloud Guru babies, where the, the couple actually met at Cloud Guru- We had a few of those at Roc too... and then had babies. I love that.
553
01:15:56.236 --> 01:15:59.936
That's awesome. That's so cool. That's awesome. Yeah. It's just, it's great. Hopefully not conceived at work, but...
554
01:15:59.936 --> 01:16:12.196
[laughs] And that's why I stress, it's two that I know of, but I don't know how many more I don't know of. [laughs] Yeah. Um, so we're coming up to time. Um, before we wrap up, I would...
555
01:16:12.236 --> 01:16:20.396
want to hear a little bit about your investments now. So you- Yeah. Mm... you've been a founder. You've, you know, built, I mean, Up and, you know, the, the great, amazing journey.
556
01:16:21.116 --> 01:16:30.396
Now you're giving back through, I mean, investing, obviously to make money, but also giving back and making sure the ecosystem is strong for Australia. So talk to us a little bit about your thinking there and- Yeah...
557
01:16:30.436 --> 01:16:37.516
you said Femia, the family office, and how you're investing through that. Yeah. So it's essentially that w- we had three exits during COVID. Mm.
558
01:16:37.576 --> 01:16:46.796
And, you know, everyone's working from home, and there's lockdowns and all this, and we sold the bank. We sold Ferocia, the software company- Mm... and Up, you know, as, as, uh, during COVID. That's great. Um- Mm...
559
01:16:46.836 --> 01:16:57.476
we also sold, uh, another company that I'd started just before Ferocia called Pin Payments. Um, and we sold that. Like, Stripe had tried to buy it, and then we- Mm... sold it to their biggest competitor, Checkout.
560
01:16:58.016 --> 01:17:06.996
And then I had another company that I'd sort of helped to seed as like a, a, a crowdfunding investment in the UK. Um, and it had exited for more than a billion pounds. It was amazing. Mm.
561
01:17:07.016 --> 01:17:15.456
And so those three exits, just those three exits, provided a pool of capital, uh, for me to, you know, essentially become an investor and, and have a family office.
562
01:17:15.476 --> 01:17:21.496
And so the family office was set up with the mission to elevate the Australian startup ecosystem- Yeah...
563
01:17:21.616 --> 01:17:30.836
to, um, lead rounds so that, um, uh, you know, no one else would ever be in the situation we're in at Up, where we had this great team- Yeah... and this great product, but we couldn't raise money- Yeah...
564
01:17:30.956 --> 01:17:40.156
um, to price rounds, to do due diligence, to, uh, to partner with, uh, other venture firms. We ended up in- And you often be the first check into a fin- a thing- Being the... Wou- we'd love to be the first check. Yeah.
565
01:17:40.176 --> 01:17:48.516
And so the thesis for the family office was fintech 'cause I'm, you know, Fintech Leader of the Year- [laughs]... Mr. Fintech. [laughs] Um, but was also, uh, female founders and female- Yeah...
566
01:17:48.556 --> 01:17:53.696
fund allocators because- Yeah... what we'd noticed is that any underrepresented founder, you don't have to be a woman. Yeah.
567
01:17:53.716 --> 01:18:03.276
Like, any underrepresented founder, um, has a lot more difficulty getting access to capital than, than me. Mm. Yeah. I walk in, I'm a middle-aged white bloke, I can get money pretty easily. Yeah.
568
01:18:03.336 --> 01:18:13.796
So w- we made it our mission to back and be the first check for female GPs- Yeah... and for female founders. And then I like to do a lot of, uh, over the last 25 years, a lot of climate investing, so- Mm...
569
01:18:13.896 --> 01:18:20.536
the family office does, you know, climate stuff as well. So fintech, women, and climate, or underrepresented founders. And then we, uh...
570
01:18:20.576 --> 01:18:26.176
And then along the journey, we sort of found that there were also high-growth startups powering other high-growth startups. Yeah.
571
01:18:26.216 --> 01:18:34.856
And so we call that startup infrastructure, and they could be providing electricity, they could be providing compute, they could be providing, um, continuous deployment. Mm-hmm. There's so many different things- Yep...
572
01:18:34.876 --> 01:18:46.952
that you can do to power every other startup. So Billcard's a good example, where it spun out of Pin- And up, Ferocia was the first enterprise customer. Mm. Now they power Anthropic, OpenAI- Yeah...
573
01:18:47.032 --> 01:18:56.552
SpaceX, um, Shopify- [laughs]... Spotify, uh, Reddit, Airbnb, Uber, like- Cuddalle. Cuddalle. Cloudera. Now, now, now, now Builkite is- It's great... powering everyone, right? Yeah.
574
01:18:56.651 --> 01:19:06.772
But, but that little company just came out of Pin, and then Ferocia was the f- the, the first participant. So the Family Office backs that, and what we did is we did a, um, we, we, we staked a round for them.
575
01:19:07.112 --> 01:19:14.712
Uh, Judy knows the details, but, but we put a million bucks in. Mm. But then we introduced them to AirTree, and then AirTree came in, and then there were two American VCs that came in.
576
01:19:14.732 --> 01:19:22.632
And so we essentially k- we kind of, we did all the DD. AirTree officially led the round, but we kinda co-led the round with AirTree, and we brought that deal to them.
577
01:19:23.112 --> 01:19:33.292
Um, and now it's one of their greatest, uh, investments. Um, and so- Awesome... what we started doing was investing in funds as well. So the Family Office- Yeah... is in 23 funds- Yeah... across 32 vintages- Mm...
578
01:19:33.312 --> 01:19:43.952
which means that we have, um, a vested interest in thousands of startups, mostly in Australia. So the Family Office, that's it, right? Yeah. But it's all Dom's money. Yeah. And we deployed 110 million- Yeah...
579
01:19:44.192 --> 01:19:54.992
into these, into the industry, and we created billions of dollars worth of flow- Yeah... from other investments- Yes... and funds and so on. And that was great, but I don't have any more money. [laughs] Yeah. So- Yeah...
580
01:19:55.032 --> 01:20:00.292
now I've gotta do another startup. So, so now what we said is we, we- And you are doing another one. We'll come to that in a second. Yeah, but we, we, we, we need...
581
01:20:00.432 --> 01:20:08.972
No, I said we need a, a dedicated structure for co-investments and for others- Yeah... you know, to leverage other people's money, and so that's why we set up Triple Bubble. Right.
582
01:20:09.012 --> 01:20:17.212
And Triple Bubble's a dedicated fintech fund. But f- for Euphemia, for the Family Office, it's, for me, it's really the first of potentially many funds. Mm.
583
01:20:17.232 --> 01:20:27.852
And that it's, it's a fintech fund, and now it brings together investors from the fintech ecosystem. Yeah. So our first partner, our first institutional investor was the Commonwealth Bank- Mm... and X15. Mm.
584
01:20:27.892 --> 01:20:37.132
And so that sent a very strong signal to market that this isn't Dom's fund, this is an industry fund. We wanna have the banks in there, the super funds in there. We want, you know, government funds in there.
585
01:20:37.172 --> 01:20:44.892
We want, um, a lot of ex-founders in there. Mm. You know, we wanna do everything we can to accelerate and elevate the ecosystem, and that's just for fintech. Yeah.
586
01:20:44.892 --> 01:20:55.292
So the next fund that we launch should be climate or for female founders or maybe staking female GPs. Yeah. Um, and, and then we'll have an infrastructure fund and so on. So, so I think that, like- Interesting...
587
01:20:55.352 --> 01:21:04.492
basically- Yeah... I, I wanted to give something back. Yeah. Um, and I, I do p- public policy. Um, I'm on the board of Fintech Australia. Yeah. You know, work with the Tech Council.
588
01:21:04.992 --> 01:21:13.952
Um, I'm like the first guest on so many podcasts- Mm... um, when people are getting started. Mm. We, we back a lot of, um, people that are starting a venture firm, and it's the first time they've ever done it.
589
01:21:13.972 --> 01:21:21.512
It's a first fund. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really just like taking risks that other people wouldn't be prepared to take, and I don't even care if I lose all the money. Mm. Yeah.
590
01:21:21.552 --> 01:21:29.092
Like, you know, most people have investors' money- Mm... to worry about. They're, they're regulated. They're, they're, they're sort of operating in a, in a, in a- Mm... sort of constraints.
591
01:21:29.532 --> 01:21:36.012
I come along and just say, "Well, I like what this person's doing." Mm-hmm. "I love this disruption that they're proposing. No one else will fund it? I'll fund it."
592
01:21:36.412 --> 01:21:45.312
Um, and, and, and the other thing is we double down a lot. Like I'm in, say, Birchal, um, which is e- equity crowdfunding- Mm... I think seven or eight times. Yeah.
593
01:21:45.332 --> 01:21:55.732
And like I'm the largest shareholder outside the founders. Yep. Um, and, and I just keep backing. We've got to put in a new CTO, a new CEO, a new CFO, and we've restructured the board. I'm an observer.
594
01:21:55.812 --> 01:22:03.852
Judy's on the board. Okay. Yeah. Like we do everything we can to make that successful. Why? Because it's a, a high growth startup powering other high growth startups.
595
01:22:04.132 --> 01:22:12.292
They raised 250 million odd, um, in, in crowdfunding for other Australian startups. Mm. So to me, that's a critical piece of infrastructure that needs to exist. Yeah.
596
01:22:12.352 --> 01:22:23.592
Um, and if they can't raise VC, well, then they have to talk to Dom. Right. So is this the philos- it's just... It, it, it kind of, uh, mirrors, I think, your life in a sense.
597
01:22:23.632 --> 01:22:34.232
Like you've done so many things, like, and, and they're all disparate. It's like record label, grain exchange, bank. Uh, you've done...
598
01:22:34.912 --> 01:22:42.892
A- and there doesn't seem to be a, a thread there except like let's try to do something new that hasn't been done before. Is that, is that- I found the, I found the thread.
599
01:22:42.952 --> 01:22:52.272
So I was thinking- And then Caligra is a- Well, Caligra's a whole different thing... yeah. It's hardware. Yeah. Well, well, well- It's a new computer... Pin, Pin Payments was, I would say, um, a trailblazer in Australia.
600
01:22:52.552 --> 01:23:01.892
Yeah. Um, it was like Stripe before Stripe launched in Australia. Yeah. Um, and, you know, it, it, it was the first all-in-one, um, online e-commerce payment platform. Yeah. Yeah.
601
01:23:01.952 --> 01:23:10.512
Um, now, now there's, they're a dime a dozen. But- Yeah... um, but at the time it was, it was really revolutionary, and, um, that was a 14-year journey with Grant Bissett. Mm.
602
01:23:10.532 --> 01:23:24.492
And so Grant wanted to start a new company, and his pitch to me was, um, "I wanna build, uh, a new computer, hardware and software, new operating system, um, and it's gonna be for all the people that we know and love and have worked with.
603
01:23:24.532 --> 01:23:33.632
It's, it's for engineers. It's for people building something meaningful, whether it's with AI- Yeah... or whether you just need like super compute on the desktop." Yeah. Um, you know, "It's gonna be amazing.
604
01:23:34.212 --> 01:23:42.472
It's gonna be a trillion dollar company. We're going up against Google and Apple and Microsoft. Like, what do you reckon?" I'm like, "I've gotta be the first check." Yeah. Like, even if it fails- Mm. Yeah...
605
01:23:42.512 --> 01:23:48.892
like, can you imagine the ambition- It's a great endeavor... of something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Like, you, you, so you gotta have a crack at it, you know? And so, and so for me- Have a look. Yeah...
606
01:23:49.132 --> 01:23:59.532
um, I have found now, um... Um, so I said I was a bit sick earlier in the year. Mm. Bacterial pneumonia was horrible. Yeah. And I'm in bed for 10 weeks, and during that time, what are you gonna do? Watch Netflix?
607
01:23:59.932 --> 01:24:08.352
Like, so I started writing a book, and it's 23 chapters. I've written 10 chapters. I know exactly in my head what, what, you know, every chapter. Every chapter has a company.
608
01:24:08.432 --> 01:24:17.252
I've started 22 companies, so I need to do one more. [laughs] So every chapter has a company. Um- Is that just leaving space for one more? Yeah. And ev- every, every chapter has a Dom story. Yeah.
609
01:24:17.272 --> 01:24:23.852
Like I'm in the first Qantas plane crash, you know, in Bangkok in 1999. Man. Um, I've got stories. I've got more stories than you can imagine. I, I worked...
610
01:24:23.892 --> 01:24:29.532
My first job, I was working at 13 underage in a, um, a book binding in a printing, you know, printing factory.
611
01:24:29.612 --> 01:24:39.992
And, um, a- a- and I'm using a four ton or a two ton or something printing press, uh, and I stuck my hand in it and, you know- Oh... ripped my fingers off. Um, so, uh, I have scars to show you. No.
612
01:24:40.052 --> 01:24:51.016
Um, uh, but you know, like I have these stories. Jesus. So every chapter has, um- A story... a, a business- Yeah... and a Dom story. And then also I travel around the world, um, e- eating steak. Um, and so- [laughs]
613
01:24:51.036 --> 01:24:56.556
Um, like I wanna go to the best steak restaurants in the world. But it's not about the steak. Mm-hmm. It's, it's about the people that I ate the steak with. Right.
614
01:24:56.596 --> 01:25:07.076
And the business is not about the business, it's about the people that I started the business with. Mm-hmm. Um, people that I recruited out of university. Like take, um, uh, Xavier Shea, he's the CEO of Up Now. Mm-hmm.
615
01:25:07.136 --> 01:25:11.476
And he's on the executive at Bendigo Bank, a public company that's worth 5 billion-plus whatever. Um,
616
01:25:12.596 --> 01:25:22.916
Grant Bissett, my business partner in Pin, was the first employee of Red Bubble, and he recruited Xavier as his first job. And then Xavier- Wow... came to the Grain Exchange and joined the team there. Mm.
617
01:25:22.976 --> 01:25:31.396
And then when we got acquired, they wanted to build a dairy exchange, and he's vegan so he quit. [laughs] He went and met this guy in, in, in, uh, San Francisco, you probably never heard of him, Jack Dorsey.
618
01:25:31.396 --> 01:25:39.636
[laughs] And they built this little company called Square. Um, and Xavier- Wow... was the director of engineering, the director of payments, and the director of fraud. I don't know what else Square did at the time- Mm...
619
01:25:39.816 --> 01:25:47.356
but he spent seven years or eight years there. I call him a boomerang. 'Cause then he came back to Australia- Wow. Yeah... and he came to our Christmas party, and his brother worked at Ferocia.
620
01:25:47.716 --> 01:25:56.836
And so he came to the Christmas party, and then within three weeks he's running our executive meetings. Within three months, he's the CEO. Wow. And he's been the CEO ever since. So, so that story is just one story- Mm...
621
01:25:56.836 --> 01:26:04.076
and I've got hundreds of them, of these people where, you know, we gave them their first chance in life. Mm. Um, we, we bought them a computer or we gave them a job- Wow...
622
01:26:04.096 --> 01:26:10.656
or we helped them out, and now they're, I don't know, making movies or, um- Mm... you know, build a billion-dollar company or whatever.
623
01:26:10.696 --> 01:26:20.556
And so I realize now that the, the thread is, we call, we used to call it the Ferocia mafia, and we thought that it was like the PayPal mafia or the- Mm-hmm... you know- Yeah... Tesla mafia or whatever. Yeah.
624
01:26:20.596 --> 01:26:31.056
But now I realize it's actually the Zoodio mafia, because the people from the record label ended up going through that whole thread. Mm. And the connection is every time there's a major global disruption- Yeah...
625
01:26:31.256 --> 01:26:35.916
we're there. Yeah. So in the music industry, when it went from physical- Yeah... to digital- Digital, yeah... we were there. Yeah.
626
01:26:35.956 --> 01:26:46.776
In the grain industry when there was the oil for wheat scandal, um, and the, uh, and they deregulated the, um, the, the, the wheat board- Yeah... um, that, that was like a 100, 100-year event. Mm-hmm.
627
01:26:46.896 --> 01:26:53.516
Um, and we were there, and we built this Grain Exchange. And then when digital banking came along and people were using apps, we were there. Um- Mm...
628
01:26:53.536 --> 01:27:03.816
and so I feel, and when, you know, when e-commerce started, we built Pin Payments, we were there. Yeah. So I feel like, um, the next company will be something that's changing in the world, and we're the disruptor. Yeah.
629
01:27:03.836 --> 01:27:13.076
We're the catalyst to show that it can be done differently. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's the thread. Okay. Yeah. Amazing. They seem random, right? That's so cool. They seem random. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
630
01:27:13.116 --> 01:27:20.376
No, but it makes sense. Yeah. It makes sense. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you, Dom. No worries. Thanks for having me. It's been a great chat. I love it. This has been so much fun. Yeah. Been great to hear the story- I've-...
631
01:27:20.396 --> 01:27:30.296
and we could probably do a whole nother episode. Uh, and we won't talk about CGT now, but thank you for your work on that. Um- Pleasure. He is. He-... trying to help the government see the error of their ways on that.
632
01:27:30.316 --> 01:27:36.196
See the light. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's been a hard slog. We won't talk about that today. Yeah. [laughs] But, um, we might do a whole nother episode on CGT and the, the trade. Well, can I just say this, though?
633
01:27:36.216 --> 01:27:44.636
That, um, like I feel very privileged to be a guest. Like, you guys are absolute heroes. Oh, thank you. And, and doing a lot more for the industry than me, so I really appreciate having the opportunity to talk to you.
634
01:27:44.656 --> 01:27:51.176
Well, I think it's, we love giving back and, you know, in the same way you have, uh, investing, like Rich is doing that, investing across the sector.
635
01:27:51.216 --> 01:27:58.096
We've done through our family offices respectively, and being able to put back into the sector is something that we're all aligned around, which is amazing. 100%. But, yeah.
636
01:27:58.136 --> 01:28:05.316
But I think the, the thing that stuck to me from the conversation, just the focus on culture, which again, we did, we're doing that at FirmBut, we did it at Aconex. Yeah.
637
01:28:05.336 --> 01:28:13.016
And we'll get Rob on to talk about the culture we built there, and I think you've done the same, Sam. But culture is so critical. Mm. Uh, and to hear you talk about that, uh, was great.
638
01:28:13.056 --> 01:28:23.096
And, and giving back to those that, 'cause companies are built by great people. Yeah. Right? And making sure- Talk about boomerangs, we've got, of our exec team at FirmBut, five are at Aconex. Uh- Awesome, isn't it?
639
01:28:23.116 --> 01:28:24.496
I mean, just you get this flow of people.
640
01:28:24.556 --> 01:28:34.776
And been interesting with FirmBut now we've got a whole lot of, you know, 20-somethings that are now, you know, key in the business build- So it's the next generation of, of talent that we can nurture, uh, through the ecosystem.
641
01:28:34.796 --> 01:28:42.956
Also, just g- I love that you just... It's all about giving it a crack. Yeah. Just- Yeah... just give it a crack. I always think, like, if you have an idea for something and you want to give it a crack,
642
01:28:43.976 --> 01:28:53.416
what's the down, like, what's the downside really? 'Cause if you give it a crack and it doesn't work... Well, sorry, even if you, if you don't give it a crack, you know what the rest of your life looks like. Yeah.
643
01:28:53.476 --> 01:28:59.636
Just doing what you're doing today. Yeah. You know? So why not give it a go, and if it doesn't work, you'll go back to that path. Well, we have no regrets. Yeah.
644
01:28:59.656 --> 01:29:06.616
Because every time we think we're gonna do something, we just do it. Yeah. Yeah. Just do it and figure it out, and a, a lot of it won't work to start with. But it's not a straight line.
645
01:29:06.616 --> 01:29:13.336
But if you have smart people- It's a hard journey... you'll figure it out. Yeah. A lot of ups and downs. It's really hard. Blood, sweat, and tears. Yeah. It's not easy at all. Yeah. Yeah.
646
01:29:13.396 --> 01:29:18.116
I've found that starting Cutable, like everybody thinks, "Oh, it must be so much easier the second time around."
647
01:29:18.156 --> 01:29:28.936
It's like, well, some things are, but in the end, like, the way you win is to invent a product that hasn't been invented before, and there's no shortcut to that. No. You just have to figure it out. There's no rulebook.
648
01:29:28.936 --> 01:29:36.396
It's bloody hard work. There's no rulebook. You're writing the rulebook- Yeah... while you're building it. Yeah. Exactly. [laughs] Exactly. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Dom. Thanks so much. Very legit.
649
01:29:36.396 --> 01:29:39.476
Really appreciate it. And thank you for those of you who are listening and watching. Yes.
650
01:29:39.496 --> 01:29:46.036
And please, uh, share this, share Imperfect Company with o- uh, others in your network, and that's how we can get more founders to hear these stories.
651
01:29:46.076 --> 01:29:54.236
And ultimately, that's what we're all about, is sharing great stories, but importantly, the hard parts of those stories so that we can all learn from it. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Cheers.