The Law in Education – When School Discipline and Due Process Collide – IDRA Classnotes Podcast Episode 260

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[VO] This is episode 260 of IDRA
Classnotes.
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Erin Einhorn: There are tons of research
showing that two kids commit the same
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offense if the child is Black, if the
child has a disability, they're more
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likely to get a more severe punishment.
And the most shocking thing for me is we
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have decades of research showing it
doesn't work. Suspensions do not make
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schools safer. They do not make learning
easier. So, we have this inequitable,
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harmful, ineffective tool, and our schools
have been using it consistently for
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decades.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: Welcome to the IDRA
Classnotes podcast. I am Makiah Lyons, a
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legal fellow here at IDRA. Today we're
diving into something that affects
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millions of students and families across
the country: school discipline
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policies. Today we're joined by Erin
Einhorn, an award-winning investigative
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reporter. Erin's NBC News article exposed
the variations in how states handle
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school discipline, and it inspired IDRA to
launch their own study examining
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school discipline policies across all 50
states. Now Erin is working on her
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upcoming book, Dismissed: The Children
We've Lost to School Punishment, and the
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Urgent Need for Change. It's set to be
published soon. Erin brings incredible
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depth to education journalism. She's
reported on some of the country's most
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prestigious outlets, including NBC News
and The New York Daily News. Erin has
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won the National Education Beat Reporting
Prizes twice, and her work has been
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recognized by the Webbys, the Online News
Association, and the Collier Prize,
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just to name a few. In addition, Erin's
also covered the nation's largest public
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school system as an education reporter.
Thank you so much for being here, Erin.
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Erin Einhorn: Thanks for hosting this
conversation. It's really important.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: Of course. So before
we get started, I really do want to
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provide our listeners with a brief
background of how we got here, really some
of
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the legal background. School discipline
cases haven't made it to the Supreme
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Court often at all. States and local
government often leave education issues,
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including school discipline, to the states
to decide. Our starting point here is
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the Supreme Court's 1975 ruling in Goss v.
Lopez. Nine students in Ohio were
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given 10-day suspensions from school. But
here's the problem: the school's
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principals didn't provide hearings for the
students before ordering the
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suspensions. But Ohio law at the time only
required that parents be notified of
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the school's decision within 24 hours and
required them to explain the reasons
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their students were suspended. So they
went to court challenging these actions.
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The Supreme Court essentially said that
students' rights were violated by this
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disciplinary action. The Supreme Court
said Ohio provided a right to education
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to its citizens and could not deprive them
of the right without first providing
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the students and their families with some
sort of process to be heard, to hear
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the allegations, to challenge them. These
are the basic concepts enshrined in
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the due process clause of the 14th
Amendment to the US Constitution. It's
really
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this idea that some things are so
important that before the government,
here,
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state actors can take these things away
from you. They owe you something first:
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a fair process. At minimum, a notice of
the action, what the state wants to do,
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what the school wants to do, and why
they're doing it, and an opportunity to be
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heard, to present your side of the story.
This was significant. The court said
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students have such an important interest
in education. The 14th Amendment
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requires schools to provide them with a
fair process, even for temporary
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removals. So under Goss v. Lopez, schools
are not able to suspend students for
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longer than 10 days without notice and
some sort of hearing process. This is the
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minimum standard. But here's the thing:
that decision recognizes that students
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have this important interest. And in that
sense, this is wonderful. But notice
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and hearing is a pretty low bar. It
doesn't actually require much from states.
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And some states have stronger rights for
students. Others have weaker rights.
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Even district to district within a state,
the processes followed in handling
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school discipline can be really different.
So that's enough yapping for me. The
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star of the show is really Erin. So I'd
love to start off by asking you, Erin,
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what inspired you to investigate school
discipline? You've published a lot of
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journalism about education broadly also.
And I know you have a book coming out.
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Where did this all start for you?
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Erin Einhorn: Yeah. This was a few years
ago at NBC News. I was just working on
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a story about-- it was right after COVID,
and kids were coming back, and we were
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hearing about-- there were sort of spikes
in difficult behavior and spikes in
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suspensions and expulsions. And I said,
"Well, okay, let me--" I was just doing
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kind of just an ordinary, routine story
about that, and I wanted to include a
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family, how their lives had been affected
by a school discipline issue. And I
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was connected with a family, a 10-year-old
boy who'd gotten in trouble at
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school. He was being bullied. It was a
fifth grader. And these two kids were
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kind of picking on him, and he told them
to back off. And they're like, "Well,
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we're going to beat you up on the
playground at recess." And he was scared.
And
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so he brought a pair of scissors. He
grabbed scissors. They were actually
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elementary school child safety scissors.
Brings them to the playground, and the
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bullies come around, and he waves these
scissors in the air just to scare them
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off. And they go running and screaming,
and they tell a teacher. And the school
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looks at the video, and they see video of
this little boy waving these scissors
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in the air. And they expel him for a year.
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Erin Einhorn: And when I met this family,
actually, they were trying to find
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another school, but it turns out in
Michigan, as in, I think, well, many
states,
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if you're expelled from one school, you're
essentially expelled from all of
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them. No other school. This was a tiny
charter school, but that child's home
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district wouldn't take him. None of the
neighboring districts. And he lived in
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the Detroit area where there are hundreds
of charter schools. So much school
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choice, but nobody would take this little
boy. And I was so shaken by this
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because this was this one school's
decision. A lot of schools would have
handled
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this situation very differently. But this
one school made the decision to expel
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him. And I was just, what is going to
happen to this little kid? When he does
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return to school, how changed will he be
from this experience? Because this was
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right after COVID. He'd just missed a year
for-- he was out because of COVID,
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and now he's going to miss another year.
He could only find an online school
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that would take him. And I was like, how
many kids are there who've been through
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something like this? And I started looking
for other families to talk to and
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ended up getting a fellowship. And within
a year, I talked to 60 families from
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all over the country who'd had all kinds
of really stunning stories. And I knew
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that they needed to be a book. And that is
kind of how I got started on it.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: That's amazing. It is
odd to say positive things about such
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negative stories, but it is phenomenal
that you were able to kind of make such
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contact with so many families that have so
many things in common but might not
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even really know. That's incredible. So
kind of broadly, there's a lot going on
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in the education landscape right now. Why
do you think it's important we turn
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our attention to school discipline at this
moment?
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Erin Einhorn: I'd always known that, okay,
suspension was damaging or something
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like that. But actually, in my mind, I
always thought it was the bad kids. You
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hear from teachers about, "Oh, I feel
unsafe," or, "The kids are feeling
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unsafe." Yeah, I always thought this was
kids who are being really violent, and
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we need to keep our schools safe, and we
need to have strict standards. But in
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fact, as you look into it, most
suspensions go for minor things, right,
like
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disruption and defiance and whatever,
right? And it's not dealing drugs in the
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bathroom or threatening your classmates
with knives, right? It's often kids who
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are having difficulty or whatever. And if
they're suspended, even a one-day
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suspension, we have decades of research
showing how harmful even a one-day
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suspension can be to a child, right?
Suspension over and over in peer-reviewed
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research, has been shown to increase the
risk of dropping out, reduce graduation
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rates. It's been shown to increase the
odds of a child getting in criminal
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trouble and then ultimately lifelong
consequences, including lower wages and
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less likely to own a home and even health
issues, right? You're more likely to
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have health difficulties if you were
suspended. So we have decades of research
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showing it's harmful. We have decades of
research showing that it's grossly
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inequitable, right? So kids of color, kids
with disabilities, homeless kids,
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foster youth, LGBTQ kids are more likely
to be disciplined at school than their
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White, more affluent, [inaudible] so poor
kids are also. They're more likely to
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get in trouble, even though there's no
evidence that they're more likely to
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offend. So there's tons of research
showing that two kids commit the same
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offense. If the child is Black, if the
child has a disability, they're more
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likely to get a more severe punishment.
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Erin Einhorn: So we have tons of research,
decades of research showing it's
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harmful. Decades of research showing it's
inequitable. And the most shocking
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thing for me, as I kind of got into this,
is we have decades of research showing
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it doesn't work. It's ineffective.
Suspensions do not make schools safer.
They
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do not make learning easier. In fact, they
erode relationships in schools. They
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make schools less safe. They make schools
less effective. So we have this
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inequitable, harmful, ineffective tool,
and our schools have been using it
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consistently for decades, so I don't know
that now is, I mean, really, the time
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to be having this conversation was decades
ago. And we probably a decade ago,
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did start having those conversations in
the Obama administration. There was a
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Dear Colleague letter that the president's
agencies had issued, and schools
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started reducing, and rates have come down
a little bit. But as behaviors spiked
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after COVID and as people kind of got
exhausted by some ineffective reforms, the
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instinct has been, well, we've got to
crack down. We've got to do it more,
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punish more. We need to be-- we need to be
strict. And so, this conversation
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needs to happen a lot more often than it
does because people think they
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understand it, and really, they might not.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: I also find that as
well. We even know down to the kind of
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grade levels, right, a suspension in
eighth grade is a lot more impactful than
a
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suspension in seventh. Same thing for
ninth. Ninth is a pretty impactful year,
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but it's more likely to happen in ninth
because students are often getting used
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to a new kind of high school. And so I
agree with you. There's so much data that
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we could be using, so much understanding
we could be operationalizing, and we're
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not. And that's got to be frustrating for,
of course, ourselves and our
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professional endeavors. Myself as an
attorney, and I'm sure as you're
collecting
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these stories, it feels a bit ridiculous
that these stories just keep coming in.
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But I'm sure these concepts, right, of
kind of due process or the students'
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rights come up a lot when you talk about
school discipline policies, especially
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with students and their families. And a
lot of people might not really know what
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it even means. What do you think families
need to know about due process?
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Erin Einhorn: Well, one of the things, so
I talked to 60 families from 28
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states, and obviously, there's 14,000
school districts. There are a million
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different circumstances out there. And
some kids who get punished are completely
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guilty. Some kids are completely-- I mean,
I was surprised by the number of
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stories I heard from kids who were
provably innocent, right? Of my 60
families,
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there were four separate cases of kids
accused of using marijuana who took drug
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tests that showed that they were clean.
They were actually innocent, but they
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were punished anyway. And actually, three
of those kids were star athletes who
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were headed to college on sports
scholarships. And just the accusation
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completely changed the trajectory of their
lives. And ultimately, in some of
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those cases, they were able to get lawyers
and ultimately get those allegations
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resolved. But the college scouts were gone
by then, or they missed their
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basketball season or their baseball
season, and that was it. That opportunity
is
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gone. And there were kids who were
defending themselves in fights, and there
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were kids who did something accidentally.
One of the boys that I write about in
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my book, his mother lent him a book bag,
and he was rooting around in the bag
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and found sort of a personal protection
device, sort of a taser thing. And
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anyway, he was like, "Oh, what is this?"
And he takes it out of his bag. The
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school expels him or essentially expels
him for a year. And then it was just
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kids doing stupid kid stuff. I had an
11-year-old boy who lit a piece of toilet
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paper on fire over the toilet in the
bathroom and dropped it in, and the fire
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went out. And they not only sent that kid
to an alternative school for four
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months, they charged him with felony
arson. I mean, there was a kid who was
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playing with a toy gun at his house,
right? And he wasn't even at school. And
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then they're charging-- that kid was
expelled for four months and also charged
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with brandishing a toy gun. So you get
just-- and all of these families were
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just so surprised because you kind of feel
like if you're accused of something,
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you're going to have a right to defend
yourself like you do in court. You get a
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lawyer. You can come in, and you can make
your case. You can defend yourself.
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But over and over and over again and
again, from stories all over the country,
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kids, little kids, big kids, Black, White,
everything, rich, poor, we're finding
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that they actually didn't-- either they
didn't have rights, they didn't know
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their rights. Or they would ask the
school. The school would say, "Oh, we're
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going to have a meeting." They wouldn't
call it a disciplinary hearing. They'd
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say, "Well, just come to the school. We're
going to have a meeting." And they
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say, "Well, do I need to bring a lawyer?"
"Oh, no, this is just us meeting." And
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they go to that meeting, and in the
meeting, they're told, "Oh, well, we're
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going to transfer you to this alternative
school," or, "We're going to expel
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you," or, "You're going to get this long
suspension." And then they're like,
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"Wait, but--" and so it's almost like, do
they have due process? Do they know
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their due process? I mean, some of the
stories, the people tried to bring
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lawyers, and the school wouldn't let their
lawyer accompany them. It's, "Oh, no.
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Well, the school district's lawyer is not
here. You can't bring your lawyer."
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And, oh, are they-- the school will have a
witness statement. It'll say,
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"Student A claims this." And you say,
"Well, who's student A?" "Oh, well, we
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can't tell you because of privacy." So you
can't cross-examine a witness. You
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don't even know who the witness is. And
the schools got their version of events,
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and the kids come in and discover they
can't even dispute the school's
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assertions. They actually don't have
rights. And if they had a lawyer, maybe it
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would be different. But some states don't
let you bring a lawyer if you have
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one. None of the states that I'm aware of
will provide you with a lawyer. So if
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you can't afford a lawyer, you're
completely out of luck. And so it's just
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really-- it's confusing. And families just
feel really powerless when they go
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through this situation because it happens
really quickly. And a lot of them are
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just completely flabbergasted by it
because they didn't know what was coming.
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And then they feel like there's nothing
they can do about it. And there often is
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nothing they can do about it, short of
filing a lawsuit, which is going to take
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years. And if you're a junior in high
school or a senior in high school, you
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don't have years.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: You don't have years
and you touched on such an important
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issue, is the issue of access to justice.
If you have, you're given maybe a
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handful of days before your hearing, it's
very difficult to get an attorney if
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you think you need one. It's even more
difficult to get one you can afford, and
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it's even more difficult to get one that
might be free, if you actually do need
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a free attorney. And so I think in many
ways, you have a lot of issues with
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access to justice, particularly in
education, right? These are kind of not
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issues are not particularly lucrative for
a lot of attorneys. And so and a lot
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of families just don't have the money to
throw at issues like this. And so, we
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see over and over again that families
really do need assistance here, and it is
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very difficult to kind of coordinate all
of that even with legal aid
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organizations. It's only so fast these
organizations can work to get pro bono
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attorneys, to get people trained, to get
them on the ground. And then, as you
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said, right, if the district is
unprepared, they may deny the attorney
access to
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those hearings because their own lawyers
aren’t in the vicinity at that time.
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And so there's a lot of issues here, I
think, that you were able to touch on. It
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is extremely inequitable. And so, yeah, I
would love to talk about just briefly
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kind of our research here at IDEA. We're
really inspired by the work that you
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were doing to research the due process
laws in all 50 states and DC. We found
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that state laws outlining student rights
were, shockingly, incredibly different
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from state to state, even where we might
not really expect it. For example, it
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sounds really straightforward to say that
schools owe students and their
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families notice and a hearing, right? And
before you kind of might research, you
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might be like, okay, that makes sense. I
have a pretty clear understanding of
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what notice and a hearing might mean. And
that's really what the Supreme Court
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said in GOS, notice and a hearing.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: But, that standard is
the floor here. It's not the ceiling.
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That is to say, GOS really only provided
what's called the minimum standard. And
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so states can kind of take that and run
with it and require more of their
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districts or maybe not, right? And so we
see some states have kind of aligned
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their state laws with GOS, and other
states do require their schools to do
more.
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For example, some outline that notice is
required to be in writing. Others don't
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really say anything about that. They'll
simply say that verbal notice would
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suffice. Other states don't necessarily
make that clear. And in that case,
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notice might really just be up to the
district or the school to interpret what
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exactly they think that means. The timing
of these issues, as you kind of
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touched on very widely, some states
mandate that students and their families
get
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at least five days' notice before their
hearing, and some require only what
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might be a reasonable time, while other
state statutes seem, again, to be silent
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and leave it up to districts to make their
own policies. Additionally, while GOS
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kind of establishes that schools need to
provide students and their families
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with a notice and a hearing in the spirit
of fairness, it is interesting that
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most state codes don't necessarily require
that hearing officers in these
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hearings be impartial people. I know in my
own kind of experience that sometimes
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the hearing officers are former employees
of the district, right? They might
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be--
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: Current employees.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: --community members,
right, or current employees, right,
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possibly even current administrators,
right? And so you're talking about--
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especially in small districts, right,
we're talking about going up and having
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decision makers who have known and do know
the school and their administration
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and have relationships. What does fairness
mean in that instance, right? I can't
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imagine that it means much. And on the
other hand, there are some states that
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have entire policies outlining their
requirements of impartiality. And when you
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can't have an impartial hearing officer in
those kind of tribunals and in those
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hearings, what do you need to do? And so,
it's just so different from place to
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place. But I'm curious, what does this
variance mean for the landscape of
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students' rights in the United States? And
from your perspective, what
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opportunities do you see to strengthen
students' rights?
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Erin Einhorn: Yeah. I mean, for me, one of
the great injustices is that some
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kids just have more rights than others,
right? Which is sort of like, "That
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doesn't make sense," depending on what
state you live in, what district you live
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in, what school you go to. And even in
places where they have, like, robust
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rules on the books, the school might not
be fully aware of it, especially, like,
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some districts are tiny at one or two
schools. And there's, like, the
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superintendent is also the music teacher
[laughter] in some of these small rural
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districts, right?
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Erin Einhorn: In my experience with
educators, they are, by and large, trying
to
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do right by their kids. This isn't like
they're not trying to be mean. They're
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not trying to be cruel. They're not trying
to be exclusive. They're just trying
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to keep their school safe. They've got
this allegation against this kid. They're
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trying to do what's fair. And they're
like, "Hey, we're going to have a meeting.
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We're going to figure it out." But it's
like families don't necessarily know
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their rights. The school they give them
notice. "Okay, we're going to have a
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meeting." But do they realize that at that
meeting, your child might be
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expelled, and that you're not really going
to have an opportunity to appeal?
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Erin Einhorn: In most of the districts
where I've seen, the superintendent or
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the principal can make the decision, and
then you can appeal to the school
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board. But how many school boards aren't
going to side with their own staff?
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These are the people they hired. And then
after that, your only recourse might
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be to sue, and you may not have a lawyer.
And then even when you-- you can't
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really sue for damages. It's all I don't
want to go into the weeds on it.
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Erin Einhorn: But also, if you have rights
and you don't know your rights, do
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you even really have rights? So it's like,
I wonder if there were even something
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standard that schools were required to
hand out to every student who's facing a
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potential expulsion that was a simple Q&A.
And, like, "If you would like a
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lawyer, here's a hotline you could call."
It doesn't even have to be legal
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representation. It could just be-- you
don't really want to burden schools with
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a whole bunch of-- if you made a whole
bunch of new rules, that's another
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unfunded mandate. A lot of our schools are
terribly underfunded. And they have a
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lot of priorities that we all would like
them to be able to focus on. And we
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don't really want our schools to have to
spend millions of dollars and hours of
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time on each kid who got in a fight in the
cafeteria.
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Erin Einhorn: But even just having better
information and resources so that
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families that do feel like they're not
getting a fair shake have an opportunity
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to understand their rights and a mechanism
to appeal and appeal quickly. One of
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the kids who I'm writing about got in a
fight at school. Actually, she got
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jumped by a classmate. And she gets in a
little hallway skirmish. And I think it
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was an administrator tries to break it up.
The administrator gets hit somehow in
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the fight in a state, I think it was
Nevada, that has an automatic expulsion
for
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assaulting a school staff member. And this
kid's facing an automatic expulsion.
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Erin Einhorn: And she appeals it to it was
Las Vegas. So they actually have an
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appellate system. She appeals it and gets
a hearing. And at the hearing, they
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said, "Actually, she wasn't the one who
hit the administrator. It was the other
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girl. And her expulsion's canceled. She
can go back to class." But meanwhile,
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she missed two months of school. So we're
talking about notice requirements.
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We're also talking about the need for
swift justice. And she was completely
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innocent. The school ultimately admits
she's innocent. But there was an error.
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There was a mistake. And who's looking out
for this kid? Parents who feel or
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students who feel trapped, like, you have
nothing to do, need something to do,
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right? It can't be sit at home and wait
two months for justice to happen.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: Absolutely not. And to
that credit, there's also a
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conversation that also happens, and people
think about it a lot less, is once
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you're, particularly in the case of an
expulsion, right what rights do you have
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to come back to school? How do we get you
back to school from maybe alternative
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placements at alternative schools? Once
you've just been removed kind of
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broadly, what rights do you have to not
only come back? But there's also a lot
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of learning loss that happens and things
like that that you have to consider.
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There's also this kind of questionable gap
that happens when the criminal legal
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system interacts, right, with maybe
something that a student has done in
school
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or maybe has done outside of school. So
when you have that pending at the same
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time as you have the school removal
pending, there's a lot of ambiguity around
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kind of what your rights are. These are
kind of interdependent systems, and it
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leaves a lot of students kind of and their
families out cold and this kind of
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feeling of powerlessness, right, where
your hands are tied. And ultimately, a
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lot of discretion is kind of in the hands
of people who might not even know what
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your rights are supposed to be, right? And
you could know, and you could be well
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aware if you're not able to kind of put
some sort of action into place that
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effectuates your rights, right? Like you
said, do you even have them? This is
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such a great conversation. But in your
experience, I know you've talked to so
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many families, and I know you've written
about-- I'm very excited to read your
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book. But what types of stories still need
to be told?
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Erin Einhorn: I mean, I just think that
the stories that need to be told are the
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ones that you're not hearing about, right?
Meaning the people who don't have-- I
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mean, if there was a celebrity's kid who
was suspended at school, you would read
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lots about it. People who have a platform
and a megaphone always get their
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stories out, or have a lot of followers on
Instagram, they're going to get their
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stories out. But the stories we don't hear
are the people-- like all these
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families. I mean, when I started this
process, I kind of wrote an email, and I
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posted it to some loose serve saying like,
"Hey, I want to interview families."
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And I thought I would interview five
families, maybe ten if I was lucky. My
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inbox was inundated. I got dozens and
dozens of emails and text messages and
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social media messages saying like, "Oh, my
God, thank you for telling these
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stories." These are families who want
their stories told. I mean, and what
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happens when a child-- especially if it's
like a big-deal thing that results in
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an expulsion, regardless of whether you
live in a big city or a small town, the
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world in your school is a very small
place, and these are children. And kids
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talk, and there's a gossip, and there's
this and that. And there's a scarlet
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letter associated with being the bad kids.
And there's a lot there's shame for
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the parents. There's shame for the kids.
They get shunned. A lot of these kids
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will tell me they'll come back to school
and their teachers look at them funny
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or their teachers are suspicious of them,
and then they'll be accused again. And
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so they just feel sort of attacked by
their communities. The people that they
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thought they could trust all turned on
them. And then they just feel, yeah, that
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sort of powerlessness combined with that
isolation that comes from that. And
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then they just feel like they have nowhere
to turn and no way to clear their
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name. And then you apply to college-- and
there's a lot of colleges are still
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asking about what you have on your it's
like, "Are you ever going to escape
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that?" I mean, our juvenile justice system
is set up to allow you, when you
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become an adult, to start fresh. We see
those cases, and we say, "That was your
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past. It's not your future." And yet the
story I started out with, with that
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10-year-old boy, he's going to have that
expulsion on his record for the rest of
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his educational experience, and he is
never going to have access to school
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choice in the state of Michigan where he
lives because any school that sees an
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expulsion doesn't have to take you other
than your home district. And if your
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home district doesn't like you or doesn't
have a program that's a good fit for
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you, you're completely out of luck. And
you're just like, "How do you ever get
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out from under that?" And then you apply
to college, and you have to check that
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box that said, you did that. And it's this
decision that an administrator made
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when you were in the fifth grade, you're
never going to escape that. And I don't
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know how often that particular version of
the story happens, but if it can
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happen to him, it can happen to you. It
can happen to your kid. And there's
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nothing you can do.
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Erin Einhorn: This is sort of a side note,
but I have all these stories about,
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like, we're so afraid about mass violence
at school. And I have all these kids
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who made some comment like, "Oh, I hate
you. I want to stab you," or something
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that they just say hyperbolically. And
then the next thing you know, they're
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expelled for threat-making and all this
stuff. And you have no way of saying,
392
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"No, no, it was a joke. I didn't mean it."
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: Yeah. And I think you
touched on something really important
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is that developmentally, there's a lot
going on for young people. I remember
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being a teenager and a young person
hitting puberty. It was a rough time,
right?
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Emotionally, socially, mentally. A lot of
these decisions don't actually readily
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take developmentally appropriate behavior,
even challenging developmentally
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appropriate behavior, into consideration.
And a lot of it doesn't necessarily
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require them to, right? And so this is
just a phenomenal conversation. And I
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really do want to thank you so much for
collecting stories because this is
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something that people absolutely need to
know more about. And I think even
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educators, families, students themselves
will find this work incredibly kind of
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illuminating. If people are interested in
following your stories and following
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your work, where can they find you?
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Erin Einhorn: Well, I'll be honest. I've
been sort of head down on this book. I
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feel like I need to be on social media a
lot more than I am. But I think a lot
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of us [laughter] are taking a little
social media break at the moment. But,
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yeah, I'm Erin Einhorn on Twitter. I'm on
Blue Sky, and I have a writer page on
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Facebook. And as I sort of finish the
book, I'm hoping to start a newsletter. So
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if you follow me on the social media, I'll
be sort of putting stuff out there
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and really just trying to start a real
conversation around this that can
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hopefully lead to at least greater
knowledge, if not necessarily greater
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justice. [laughter]
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: And with that, I would
love to thank Erin for being here
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today and providing such valuable
insights. I do want to remind everyone
that
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Erin has a book coming out soon called
Dismissed: The Children We've Lost to
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School Punishment and the Urgent Need for
Change. We'll also be producing our
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research soon, so look out and sign up for
our email alerts at idra.org. Thank
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you for listening, and we will see you all
next time.
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[music] Erin Einhorn: Thank you for all
the work you guys are doing as well.
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It's so important. Appreciate it.
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Makiah Lyons, J.D.: Thanks, Erin.
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[VO] Thank you for listening to IDRA
Classnotes. For more information on IDRA
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00:30:53,188 --> 00:30:58,174
and other Classnotes topics, go to
www.idra.org. You can also send us your
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thoughts by email to podcast@idra.org.