Chris McHugh

WEBVTT
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Some of you might like to know a little bit more about uh our drummer.
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The drummer writing is a little bit of a multiple hearts of all America.
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You do your kind of drumming, and I'll do my time drumming.
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Get up there behind those drums, bring it back, close your eyes, get right on the groove there, give it a quick steady thing.
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I'm in Los Angeles with Chris McHugh.
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Chris, thank you, man.
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You're welcome.
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Good to be here.
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You just uh got in last night, you were saying.
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I did, yeah.
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Got in around eight o'clock and went to a little industry shindig with uh that Casey Musgraves was playing at, and that was that was great.
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Um and then probably drank too much as usual.
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Look at this guy.
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Look at that guy.
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Just as we start, ladies and gentlemen, the Thunder strolling in Michael Iverson.
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What's up, Michael?
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Me too, man.
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Good dad.
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What's up, man?
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What's up, buddy?
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How's everything, man?
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Have a seat.
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Do your thing, man.
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Oh, come on.
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Have a seat.
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Yeah.
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Well this is all this is all happening.
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There'll be a new uh round table.
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Yeah, we're we're starting something new here.
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Yeah, alright.
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Welcome, Michael.
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Thanks, man.
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You just getting up?
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Yeah, just getting up.
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Come in a little closer.
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Yeah.
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If you can, I know it's awkward, but try.
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I could have slept a little longer too, but I'm not gonna lie.
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I thought see what a I had too many.
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Really?
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Four, yeah, I think I had four gin and tonics and a couple of plane on the way out.
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A couple of tequilas last night.
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There you go.
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It's my puppy, man.
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Yeah.
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I got no excuse.
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Yeah.
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I got a cat.
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That'll do it.
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That'll do it.
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What's going on with me?
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Yeah.
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So uh you you were saying you Chris was at this shindig last night, a Hollywood thing.
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Yes.
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Do you like it?
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Uh well it it was actually cool.
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It wasn't too pretentious or anything, and it and it was um it was, you know, um kind of an event where um this agent tries to introduce some of his music clients to other people in the industry, some movie people and stuff like that.
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So they he has these like parties and uh and the artists will play, like with a full band and everything, you know, not like a small club, but it's great.
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I mean there were, you know, there were um, you know, just people from different facets of the industry, and and I think in this where we're at right now, it requires some non-linear thinking like that, you know, for people to just work together, meet together in a way that really is not um, you know, uh it has to be forced.
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Well, yeah, and and you know, I think it's the the time where people need to stop thinking, you know, on a on a monetary level and and just kind of get more into the creative process, you know.
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I mean, I I'm it it it's funny that the whole can of worms with the analog, digital, all that kind of stuff.
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To me, we really should be making the best art possible, certainly when it comes to music, because technology says, man, you can do whatever you want, and this is the shit we've chosen to do.
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Some of us don't don't choose it.
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I mean, you know, I'm primarily, you know, like yourself.
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I mean, we're side men, so it's it's it's not like we're we don't really get a lot to say at a certain point, you know, really just in the service industry to a degree.
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You know, I mean you nobody can mess with the space in between the notes, you know, that we're playing.
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Well, they could in post, but but you know what I mean?
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Like it it's not like you and I are going, uh, you know, this is what the song is, you know.
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I mean, I don't do you write?
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Yeah, a little.
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Yeah.
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I don't know.
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I sometimes have that blurry line between at what point do you just shut your mouth and do what you're told?
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Yeah.
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At what point do you sort of say, hey, you know, why don't we try this or try that?
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That's actually like if I could ask Chris some questions, that's the kind of stuff I'm really interested in.
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Yeah.
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Like I'd like to know.
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This is one thing I've always wanted to know from someone who at your level is like talk me through the process of like the phone call to to wrapping a record.
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Okay.
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Like, so I'm a producer you haven't worked with before, right?
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For an artist that you know has whatever, some money, maybe a label deal, whatever it might be.
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Yeah.
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So where do you start the negotiation?
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They hit you up because they know you're Chris McQueue, you have the track record of all those records.
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Right?
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So yeah, yes, yeah, yes, factually what you're saying, yeah, is correct.
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Although it's it's funny to hear, but yeah.
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Well, like typically I'll get a call either from um a production assistant or the producer himself, herself, you know, either either one.
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And you know, usually you know, the first thing is just to find out about availability when they're looking to record.
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And um, you know, a good thing about Nashville is a lot of the rates are kind of predetermined to.
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Because LA seems like the Wild West, right?
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As far as that can is concerned.
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Yeah, is it is it a union deal down there?
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Yeah, it's it's union in Nashville.
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Uh but what's interesting about Nashville is uh the the the the the word union can bring up a lot of uh you know a lot of visions of Teamsters?
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Yeah, and and just and just weirdness or people freak out, is that all of a sudden going to Jimmy Hoffa down there?
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Yeah, or just the double double the cost of of what they're doing.
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But what the Nashville Union has done is they've set up rates that really work with whatever budget that you have.
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It's really more about just But don't don't people know that Chris McHugh has a rate?
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I would guess.
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I would guess so.
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They just kind of know what it is.
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Yeah, I mean, but but it's not, you know, like even Chamberlain and I were talking about.
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There's times that people call and go, man, I I have no money, but this is what we're doing.
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Yeah.
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And you're okay with that.
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Yeah, and it it it depends on what you're doing.
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So you take a listen to it, and if you're like, this is cool, I'll be a part of it.
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Yeah, I mean, if you believe in something and there's a way to know that you're not going to be taken advantage of.
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That that that's the other thing, you know, more than more than any of it is more to me about, you know, I I would hate for there to be musicians who are working on the floor and who are they're all like working at a very, very cut rate, and then there's something along the way that's not in that space.
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Like we're all working at a cut rate, and we're working at the most expensive studio, and we're paying book rate.
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It's like, guys, that that's a disconnect.
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It's like let's the human beings, that's the most important part of it.
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I mean, I like gear and I like all that kind of stuff, but I need to feel like all of that's together.
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And if I know that everybody's rolling the dice on it, and it is a I hate, you know, it's not like a labor of love, but it's like we're just looking at this as a it's it's just a smaller budget thing, then that's cool, you know.
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Uh but most of the time, yeah, they do know, you know, that it's a typical rate in Nashville.
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You know, it's it's um normally what I would do, I would say, you know, 95% of the time, is what is the double scale rate.
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That's like I think it you can go on the AFM website, but I think it's basically like it's close to$700 for a three-hour block.
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We do things in a three-hour block.
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And um, you know, uh, and that that would be for anything that is basically of a major label.
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That's really just how it is.
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It's kind of that part of it is understood.
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But there is negotiation along the way, it depends, you know.
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How do you go with that, Chris?
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Is that something you picked up along the way of like how to separate yeah, like I love making music, but at the same time, I don't want to get I don't want to feel like I'm being taken advantage of.
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Yeah.
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How do you balance that?
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You you just feel it.
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I think it's more of like um, and and I think anything is is worth at least, like you can, you know, you should follow your gut at least once.
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And if you go into that project and you go, oh, this is uh this doesn't feel right, then then you just don't do it again.
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Right.
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And and I think if anything I've I've learned you know as I've gotten older is I really don't ever want to put myself in any kind of you know creative situation where I'm not happy to be there.
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Because I've seen myself get negative and be like, you know, God, this fucking date sucks, you know, these songs are shit, and why did I say yes to this?
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And you know, you know how it is, man.
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When you're playing and you're feeling that, it's projected all over.
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Yeah, you know, and so I think if anything, it's it's like when I was younger, I did anything, uh, whether it paid or not.
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And then as I got older and my time became less free, then it changed, you know.
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That's that's really kind of more what it was.
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When did it change, would you say, specifically?
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Oh man, I think, you know, getting married, having kids, and and just getting busier.
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But it what what like what year?
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We peg it?
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Can you remember like what album you did or what?
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I would probably I mean, I would say like in the early, you know, like around 95, something like that, you know.
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I'd been in Nashville for about 10 years at that point.
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I that's when I'd kind of like decided that I was not gonna tour anymore.
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Uh and just you know, wanted to stay, you know, in in Nashville and just solely make records.
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And at that point, you know, you really could do that.
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And it and it was you could feel the progression as you did that.
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Nowadays, I think that that model is basically gone.
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Like, and I don't mean that in a negative way, it's it's just different now.
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I think, you know, we it there's more exciting things going on with all of it.
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Playing live, doing studio stuff, you know, trying to write.
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If you don't think you can write, you should try it.
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It's really kind of, you know, it it it's it's almost like with the situation that the industry is in, it's more like we have to stop thinking about what it was like.
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And it and it has to become more of a I don't know, like most music is very uh disposable.
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And people people treat it that way, and I think we have to stop treating it that way.
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Uh and it really it comes into doing it more from the heart.
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Everybody's gotta, you know, we've all got bills, we've all gotta make make a living.
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But when that's the thing that's driving you, man, you know, we all know, man, that just kills you.
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When all you're thinking about is money and and and you know the idea of like getting paid, or that that's my primary thing, then it really gets bad, you know, because it that's a tough game to play.
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It always is.
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Even when when the industry was like there was a ton of money in big budgets, that was bad then, you know, for what it does to your to your soul as a musician, you know.
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Did you go through that?
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Oh yeah.
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I mean, you know, you you it it becomes, you know, uh it it's it's always a challenge.
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I'm always challenged by like uh you know, like Chamberlain's a perfect example of it.
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I'm I'm so challenged by his drive creatively and artistically, you know.
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Uh it it he's he seems, you know, man, with all the, you know, for for every one really cool date there is, there's 20 of them that are just, you know, you didn't want to take like a shower like you're, you know, a prostitute, you know, you just got gangbanged, you know.
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Like, oh god, get it off of me.
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But um, you know, he his his primary drive seems is is so much more on the artistic end, you know, and uh I like that about what he's doing.
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I'm I'm also really, you know, I think artists in general hit me that way.
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Like, um, you know, the good thing about the internet is that there the the presence of that really does exist.
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There's there seems to be a way for for people to be more who they really are, like less jive, less marketed, even though it's really marketed.
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Like, and uh that's what made me the the happiest is kind of getting off of that thing of um just you know being being driven by the the how many records I was playing on, and you know, uh and and it it just um it's tough because you can't do everything.
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There's no way to do it.
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And there's always it's also subjective to whatever's going on.
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It's just it's a crazy thing.
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And um a drummer in Nashville just passed away the other day, Tommy Wells' name is and um he uh I mean I met him in like 1986 or something, just like a good friend of Larry London's and you know there was a good like 15-year period where he was in in the kind of like A-list calls, and and then as things changed and you know, different producers come in and whatever, you know, it it shifts a little bit, but he kept working and and he always worked, you know, he just did whatever anybody called him to do, you know.
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And that's a good thing about Nashville, is that I think a difference between that and LA and even New York is that there's so much of the this kind of songwriting demo stuff that is always just moving, no matter what.
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Uh a musician can can make a living.
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And to me, in you know, what was funny about about Tommy is is he was always just the sweetest guy, but you know, people would say, well, you know, Tommy wasn't doing what he used to do anymore.
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And I just really hate that because to me, it's like if you can make a living playing music, the perception of it or what it means is such bullshit because you know the thing is is nobody can take that away.
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If you're if you're sitting on the chair and you're playing drums, well, who's doing that?
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That's you.
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So whether it it meets whomever's standards of a great gig or a cool gig or a blah blah blah, you know, you you're you're doing the playing.
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That's you.
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So it it it is that.
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And if it's good and it's great and it and it feels good, you know, uh uh, then that's it.
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It's it's not up for, you know, so and so's the hottest, and that stuff doesn't it doesn't mean anything, you know.
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I think I think it it's sad because you you know the the people limit who they'll listen to, you know.
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And man, that that the the gems are in basically hearing everybody play, hearing as much music as as as you can.
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Um and stop thinking about you know the the transactional side of all of it.
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It's like it really creates a kind of a status anxiety that I see a lot in Los Angeles is that you have this a bunch of guys that are kind of my age that maybe came in just at the end of the money, and they have dudes that they know who maybe live in blah blah blah, have a Lamborghini, blah blah blah.
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They have this sense of entitlement, maybe that that's the way it should have been for them.
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And that's every conversation in this town seems to spiral down to some bottom point of like, yeah, but now it's all fucked.
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Yeah, like what's the right thing?
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And let me let me add that um, you know, and I say this with all due respect, like what you were saying about where you're at and guys like Chamberlain, I'm saying, I think it's it's probably easier from a place where you've made a living and you've got some money and you've got the house, you know what I'm saying?
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What I'm getting at, and it's a guy's where it's like, yeah, but you're not, you know, scrapping for that next, you know, mortgage payment.
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But what I hear you say, Chris, is that once you get to that idea that you had when you were like 20 of like I'm gonna be the big session guy, rah-rah, rah, rah, rah, it's like it's still you sitting on the seat playing drums.
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You know, you've got to feel good about what you're doing, right?
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Whether regardless of whether it's on MTV or you're doing Kimmel tomorrow night or whatever it might be.
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Yeah, I mean that that that that is the thing.
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And it and it that stuff bogs you down what you were talking about, just the status anxiety, and and because to me that's all what an ever-changing bar.
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What does it mean?
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You know, like when I was a kid, it was all the all the fuse and jazz drummers were the that that was the status.
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Well, man, you want to ask those guys what they made?
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They made nothing.
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You know, there there was more voodoo about what they were doing as opposed to actual money.
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And that that's the interesting thing about it.
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They didn't quit playing.
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I mean, you know, if if you were to go and find out what Elvin Jones made in his lifetime, I don't think it's what he should have gotten.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:16.480
Right, right, right.
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:22.000
I mean, if you put him up against, you know, w what uh Right.
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.640
It it that's it's it's that's why the status thing, it's just not fair.
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:27.519
And you know what?
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:33.680
It it's it's such a waste because you're moved to do what you do by your, you know, for for yourself.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:40.480
You know, you're you're born with that thing to become uh you know an artist and and to create.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:49.200
And in that purest place, you know, where you're motivated to do that, it has nothing to do with anything other than the joy of doing it.
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:54.160
And it's all the shit that happens along the way that that that's what's fucked.
00:18:54.319 --> 00:19:04.640
When those guys say it's fucked up now, you're like, well, yeah, it is, but you know, it's not just because of the fact that the industry isn't isn't as lucrative as it is.
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.319
It's just all of that shit.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:09.440
It's it it becomes, you know, but you're still busy impure.
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:09.920
Am I right?
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:21.440
Like, well, yeah, and and that's why it's it's kind of, you know, I I I think anybody listening to this, you know, it's it's yeah, I mean, it's easy for me to talk about what my my perspective is like on things, you know.
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:22.720
It's just less money.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.799
I mean, you're even making probably less money than you were ten years ago.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:28.319
Well, I don't know.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:29.839
I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:32.079
It's just different, you know, what do you're as busy do?
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:33.200
That hasn't changed, right?
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:34.960
No, that that that hasn't changed.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.839
It it's um You're still turning stuff down and saying, you know, obviously, and and you just can't do things, right?
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.480
Yeah, you can't well, I mean, that's just scheduling, you know.
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:48.960
I mean a wise man once told me that that, you know, if if you're booked on something, that means someone else isn't.
00:19:49.279 --> 00:20:09.599
It's just you're just filling a spot, you know, like the and and you know, it it um but I will say that it it it's like I think you know the difference is is now um it's even more reliant on each individual to not give up.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:14.720
Like, in and I don't mean that like in the crazy sense of that, you know.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:28.880
I mean at a certain point if you if you have, you know, if you have a family and you have a wife and stuff like that, you know, you may you may want to go and and and get a normal job, you know.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.400
You still play on the weekends or or or whatever.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:44.799
But if you are, you know, uh you have to look at what you've come out of, what you've come from, because and and weigh that in to where you're at in life.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:57.920
And you you just can't let all of the negativity shut you down to keep pursuing what you're doing because it it's just um it goes against.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:59.200
I mean, you would do it anyway.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:00.880
You would play anyway.
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:19.440
Um and you know, that type of uh that talk, you know, the status anxiety stuff, the the it it you would be better off just just just picking up your sticks and just playing.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:31.119
And you know, if you find yourself in at different times in my life I've had, you know, kind of core relationships with other musicians that could veer off into the negative side.
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.079
And man, and I never have ever felt looking back at that.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:43.279
I mean, I've I've pissed and moaned about shit too, and all of it is a waste of time because it's really a moment that I could have actually gotten to know some of these other guys.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:53.200
Not only just, you know, creatively, but also as human beings and and people, you know, uh rather than talking about it's like talking about politics, you know.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:22:04.000
It's like if if if that is something that interests you, that's great, you know, and I encourage anybody who's who Like that to really get all of the information before you open your mouth.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:10.240
But why if you're not if there's nothing you really can do about it other than vote?
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:19.599
I would really balance that part of your life and get a little bit more realistic and use your time in in just a better way.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:36.000
You know, it's like if you look at how just how everything, um, well not everything, but a lot of things have j have have have grown just uh, you know, even in Los Angeles, you think about all the bands that just got together.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:41.440
They didn't go together and go, hey man, we're gonna make millions of dollars.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:23:05.519
They got together and said, man, let's let's let's, you know, I'm a songwriter and I have some something to say, and I something, you know, and then it then it turns in it can turn into the other thing, you know, but but it's like that uh that purity I think is is what I really long for, you know, more in just in music.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:14.799
And it uh I feel like a lot of music now, period, in the whole world is very is made very much by committee.
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:28.079
It's trying to please so many people and so many things, and and uh you know, the accounting department and whatever, uh it that that's why it is a bit bland, you know.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:34.480
It's kind of like uh but there's some brilliance happening all at the same time, you know?
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.759
And and uh that's all the good shit, you know.
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:50.000
It's it's it's never been I think in history, I can't really look at a time and go, the charts were ruled by music that was made purely.
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.720
It's not that doesn't really exist.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.400
I I I don't think, you know.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:00.559
I mean there's always been a bunch of shit and some really great stuff, you know?
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:32.240
And um I think one thing uh, you know, I'm I know I'm rambling, but it it's funny, you know, doing what we do, to go back to your original question about um, you know, when do you when do you say, when do you keep your mouth shut, when do you make a suggestion, when do you do whatever, it's like, you know, you you you have to think about, you know, what what's what's your agenda, if you will, in in doing that.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.720
I would, you know, and it's to me it's broken down.
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:45.039
There's really simple things of like, you know, certainly with with the dates that I do, you're presented with a song, it could be anything from a guitar vocal to a full-blown demo.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:52.960
And the producer will, you know, often say, here's what I like about what they did in the demo.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:00.160
And number one, the first thing that that you're gonna get hit with is just your overall attitude.
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:07.359
And in and what, you know, that's when it kicks into what I would call the service industry part of what we do, right?
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:21.839
You are there to bring energy, you're there to bring a groove, you're there to bring sensitivity, uh expensive drum kits, thank you, Johnny.
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:32.640
Uh, and and to work with the engineering staff to make this record what the producer and the artist want it to be.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:34.960
It's really the artist's dream.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.880
He spent his whole life, her whole life, doing this.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:51.440
The last thing they want is some dickhead drummer to come in and start, you know, vomiting his opinion and and just shitty attitude.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:55.839
I've done it a few times, you know, and and hate it.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.720
And thankfully, you know, I've got a few friends who are like, dude, you're an ass.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:04.240
God, what a fucking asshole you are.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:10.880
And and then you, you know, you have to look at it and go, God, that really was, it's really not my thing at that point.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:19.359
And um, you know, so when you listen to the demo, what what I mean even about your attitude is you could go, God, that fucking sucks.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.039
Who the fuck is that played on that?
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.400
That's awful.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.559
It's really easy to pick anybody's thing apart, you know.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:31.359
And the problem is, is it's just there's nothing in that.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:40.079
It's like a waste of time because you really, the focus still just needs to remain on that artist having their dream become a reality, you know?
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.079
And man, I'm a fucking sarcastic jackass.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:50.880
Like I can be dark humor, awful person, and it is work to not do it.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:58.079
But I know that everything, everything flows better, and the whole day is better if I don't give in to that little little devil.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:03.440
Have there been situations where you after a day's work you thought, I think I really pissed them off.
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:04.400
Oh god, yeah.
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:04.960
Like a lot of people.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:12.960
Oh no, dude, a lot where I'm scrambling, like calling the producer and going, uh, man, you know.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:20.880
No, I I have had where And do the and do they say to you, like, yeah, dude, you were you were a little you were you were You pushed it, man.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:21.519
Too much.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:22.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:30.559
Oh yeah, no, I've I've had I've had artists um who basically were like, I never want to work with that guy again.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.359
You were told this by the producer after the fact, yeah.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:44.000
And and not not not enough to where I mean, you know, there's no way to make everybody happy, but I will say this women hate sarcasm.
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:58.400
And I have fucked myself uh, you know, by just being a dick on dates with female artists because they either they either get it or they don't.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:02.880
And if they don't get it, man, you you could you're just you're out.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.440
I'm just a fucking bull in the china shop, man.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:20.160
I'm just like a dumbass dude, you know, born in Camden, New Jersey, just saying shit that is just like I'm waiting for my dad to hit me, you know, and and of course I'm a grown man and he's passed away, so no one hits me.
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:20.640
Yeah.
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.680
And you got a bass player there going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:25.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.279
Tell him how much this sucks.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000
You know, fuck with the engineer more.
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:30.480
Yeah.
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:32.640
So it's not good.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.440
Like it it's you know, that you just have to hold it back.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:36.079
Oh, yeah.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:37.279
Yeah, I got you, I got you.
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.240
Well, and and and just check where you're at, you know.
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:40.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:46.000
And and man, if you can't behave, then say no to the date.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:46.799
You know?
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:56.640
It's like um well, and and what a funny thing, you know, to it's it is it is really, you know, not to get 12-steppy, and I'm not in in the program, maybe I should be.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:57.920
You're not a friend of Bill W.
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.960
Well, I'm a friend of some of his friends, but okay.
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:05.279
Uh but I would say that that the gratitude thing really is is really important.
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:18.640
I mean, it it does keep your shit in check, you know, because that thing, that status uh anxiety thing, really will force some real negative behavior, you know.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:24.880
Yeah, you know, so-and-so was able to come in and like really command the date and do blah blah blah.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:35.440
It's like, guys, almost everybody on that date was fucked up on cocaine, so how much coke how much is a coke is in Nashville right now?
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:36.960
No idea.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.079
I have no idea.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:39.039
You have no idea.
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:39.680
No, I don't.
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:40.720
I really I really don't.
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:43.200
I don't um I don't see it.
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:44.880
Not a lot of sniffling going on?
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:46.720
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:55.680
I would say if anything, Nashville has a good marijuana prescription drug program, probably, like like everywhere else.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:04.559
But uh you know, um I did learn though from the those few situations.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.799
The the one was really not that long ago.
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.440
It was only like about 15 months ago.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:15.680
I was with a female artist, and she just did not get my line of humor at all.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:35.200
But I was able to uh to to to talk to the producer and talk to her, and I was able to apologize and go, you know, uh thank you actually for saying what you said because I I'm learning from it, I'm I'm growing from it, and it's really what you want, you know.
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:58.160
You you you everybody gets tired, everybody has a shitty day, and um if you are, you know, getting paid, you know, especially, I mean at you know, you're talking about if there's times I'm getting 200 bucks an hour, I should be the nicest fucker in the world.
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:00.480
I shouldn't have an attitude ever.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:06.000
If somebody asked me to play a fucking fill with my feet, I should go, yeah.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.000
That's the other side of it.
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:21.920
That that's the thing that nobody talks about with with the status thing or these guys that have Maseratis and Lamborghinis, and and I would say, you know, in in in my situation, I'm I'm you know, possession-wise and all that.
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:23.200
I have a lot of stuff.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:26.240
I don't have those kinds of cards, but you know.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:27.519
You don't want them.
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:42.799
Well, but to be sensitive to the rest of the brethren, it's like for me to act like, you know, that I haven't um made a living and been uh you know, that it's been lucrative to be a drummer, that's a lie.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:43.519
Because it it has.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:44.640
That's what I was saying earlier.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:53.920
Yeah, but but it's like, you know, uh it you can get that can be shitty too.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:54.319
Yeah.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.359
You you can be ungrateful about whatever, you know.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:31:58.240
You've seen that.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:59.599
Well, I've done it too.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.480
You know, I mean you were just I mean, I can be a a a dick, you know.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.039
I can walk into SoundCheck today and just be Johnny Negative pants.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.599
Does it happen with Keith Urban where he's does he ever say to you, like, dude, what the fuck, man?
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:18.000
Oh, or yeah, I mean, where he'll just go, Well, you're off today.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.960
You know, you're just I don't know who you are.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.519
You know.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:23.200
So they're just they're just all on to you.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:31.599
Everyone knows, and it just Well, I I think I mean you think about how, you know, you man, you guys were on tour for three years, two years.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.359
I mean that's a different beast.
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.200
You don't do that though, you don't go out that long.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:39.119
No, but but we've all been working together for six years, this band.
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:46.000
I mean, you know, and and I've been working with Keith for 12 years and nine years touring.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:47.759
So everybody knows everybody.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.039
It's like There's no hiding.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:50.799
Yeah, I mean, it's like we're all married.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.200
You walk in the room like, oh fuck.
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:02.000
You know, Mike didn't sleep, or you know, where's the tampons or whatever, you know.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:14.880
The problem is that when you're when you you know work with a lot of the same musicians on dates, and then the new artist comes in, you you have to you have to change, you know what I mean?
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:15.920
Yeah, you have to make them feel well.
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:21.680
You can't bring the same inside joke shit and anchorman humor and all that shit, you know.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.039
Uh you have to be sensitive to this artist who is a hypersensitive person.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.039
Uh artists are hypersensitive.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.759
That that's what makes them what they are.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:40.480
Uh and also that thing you're gonna remember that they've just spent two years with those songs and like this is their this is their plus it's like, oh god, I'm late.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.279
Uh, where am I gonna get decent coffee on the way to this goddamn thing?
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:43.599
Yeah.
00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:47.519
But for them, it's you know, if I had one less drink last night.
00:33:48.160 --> 00:34:08.480
Well, yeah, and too, and you know, everybody, you know, who who is who's been a professional musician for any length of time, working with you know, any kind of artist, they they can be artists are difficult, session players are difficult too, but like, and it's in the communication process is what you really find it's interesting.
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:16.400
You're you're either, you know, when you're getting direction, man, it's all about the tone in which it comes at you.
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:24.239
And I think if anything, for what I would say to a young, you know, a young drummer is to get over that.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:31.039
You know, you don't have to continue to work with this artist if you're not clicking.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:48.800
But at the moment, when you're making the music, just you know, I would say, you know, don't put up with being abused, but also know that you know a lot of a lot of people they don't really even know how to talk to people.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:54.800
So sometimes, you know, that you you're dealing with someone who feels like they're never listened to.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:35:01.920
So if they're in the studio and they're working on their dream, they're gonna be like, listen to me.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:08.880
You will play this fill and you will fucking do it like this, and that's what's gonna happen.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:13.360
And the worst thing you could do is go, oh man, that fill sucks.
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:16.719
Do you still get that that that little pang of ego though?
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:22.719
Where someone's micromanaging you to the point where you're like, damn it, like just let me do my thing.
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:27.119
I know, but I've I've I've gone to the I've gone to the good side side.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:27.519
Okay.
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.840
Now I'm just like, man, I I know what I would do.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:33.840
I know what I would play.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:35.440
I'm not interested in it.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.320
You know?
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.039
It it it kind of opened another door.
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:46.000
Now I want to say, there's probably people who really know me that are laughing because they've heard me say some shit to people.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:36:07.920
Like, I have said, you know, when I've really This is awful, I was on a date and I was really, really getting pushed by the producer uh and I said, you know, man, I appreciate all these ideas that you're coming up with and these things you're trying, but how many number one records have you played drums on?
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.599
Did you work with him again?
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:15.920
No, that one was over.
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:17.119
Yeah.
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:20.400
Uh you know, it Yeah, yeah.
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:29.840
And well, okay, now there's a part of everybody that's like, oh, well that's funny, and it's you know how neat it would have been to say that.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:34.559
But in reality, I mean I I made somebody feel like shit by saying that.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.280
And and it's really that's not cool, you know.
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.000
There's nothing good about that at all, you know.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:42.079
If I were a comedian and I were Louis C.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:46.880
K or something, and people paid money for to see me do that, that's a different thing.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.000
But that's not what we're doing.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:58.559
We're we're in there making making music, and that's just the time when you that's when you've gotta re- really re-evaluate and and and get out almost.
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:00.480
Like, take a week off.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:03.760
Or find out why are you doing what you're doing, you know.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:32.559
If you're hit with all of those pressures, if you're carrying those those boulders on your back of the status anxiety, of like, you know, I know what I'm doing more than these people are, then you know, you gotta slip into the up to that other place because there is a no one can take, again, like what I said before, I mean, even stuff that's gridded, I still know who the players are that are playing.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:37.440
So there's no way to completely take that out.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:52.400
So at the at the very worst, you know, in that situation, if they were to just take samples of everything that you're doing and lining it all up, it's still at the moment that you're playing the song, no one can take that part away.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.480
What they do with it really doesn't matter at that point, you know.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:04.320
You can't be overprotective of that because what what you're doing is, you know, you're you're collaborating with a bunch of different people.
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:10.400
And, you know, the vision for it may not be your vision, you know.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.159
If they called you to come in and play drums, that's what you do.
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:20.719
They're gonna they're gonna ask you to play some fills, they're gonna ask you to play some things that you're not comfortable playing.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:26.159
Um, and you really do grow by doing it.
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:27.679
Let me ask you this.
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:34.800
Did you have do you ever get the the feeling, hey, I'd like to break into the the LA scene or the New York scene?
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:36.320
How did they call you?
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:36.960
Do you does it?
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:38.000
I a little bit.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.119
I mean, I've worked a little bit out here and a little bit up in New York.
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:46.000
Um I mean, you know, in a romantic way, yeah, it'd be nice.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:39:00.960
But I mean, you know, it it it um it that falls into that thing of like it's it's kind of different than reality and you know uh it can make me anxious, you know.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:04.639
It can make me like, well, why the fuck don't I get blah blah blah?
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:08.079
And um I'm more than just this.
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.519
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at.
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.440
Is there stuff that you're thinking like, oh how come they don't ask me to do?
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:14.159
I'd love to do it.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:15.519
They never ask me.
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:16.159
Totally.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:16.559
Yeah.
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:20.320
Some stuff I know why they don't, I could just couldn't do it, you know.
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:25.199
But I mean, yeah, everybody romanticizes about uh you know doing.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:34.639
I mean, I would, you know, I I'm envious of most of my friends, but and that what's funny is they feel the same way too.
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:34.880
Right.
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:37.039
So that's why it's all just a big game.
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.400
Yeah, yeah, you know.
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:43.840
Um I made the mistake one time of uh in a Bill Bruford clinic.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:55.199
Uh this is a long, long time ago, but I I grew up listening to a lot of prog rock, you know, which is funny, but uh playing for a country artist.
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:56.960
That's where you got the concert toms now.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:58.480
Well, that's true.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:25.199
That that is that is my homage to Phil, but you know, it those two guys, you know, Bruford and Paul Collins have a very you know a very British style in the way they play, and they they kind of compliment each other, but they are quite a bit different, and I think it's funny that you know uh Bruford wound up he was the first second drummer that Genesis had, you know.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:39.519
And uh I I you know asked some question about that at a clinic, and and you know, Bill is very, very, very British and very dismissive.
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:45.840
And he he said something that really basically was go fuck yourself, you know.
00:40:46.800 --> 00:41:02.320
When I brought up the point that both he and Phil had had, you know, what I thought is is was similar style in the way that they approached their drumming in in that type of music, in prog music or pop music or however you call it, you know.
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:11.360
But you know, he he elaborated a little more than that, was that you know they they both envied each other's bands and and wanted to do what each other was doing.
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:15.440
Um Bruford's book is pretty interesting.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:25.920
It's it's it's very dry, like it's very, it's very um, you know, it's not filled with like you know, juicy, gossipy details.
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:31.599
But one thing, you know, he said, I took so much grief for for quitting, yes, when I did.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:37.039
He said, uh, he said, man, I I was I was 23 years old.
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:44.559
You know, I I didn't know this the status of anything.
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:48.000
I just wanted to do something cool, you know, musically.
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:51.760
I felt trapped in in what I was doing with Yes.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:57.039
I felt like we'd made the best record we ever did, we were never gonna make a better record than Close to the Edge.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:58.719
So I was done.
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:07.119
And, you know, his the the thing with Frip is that he was very enticing in the challenging part, creatively.
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:14.400
Like, you know, basically, if you want to do something really cool and outside, you'll come play with us.
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:20.880
And of course, it was it was the truth, but none of that had anything to do with money at all.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:28.880
Like, if anything, he as an artist has chosen the most non-money things ever.
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:34.559
But think about the statements that that guy has made musically, it's fucking insane.
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:37.519
And will last forever.
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:53.039
I can't there's the there's no way that you can take any musician, but especially a drummer, a young drummer, and play him something from fragile or close to the edge, and not they're not going to be moved by that.
00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:00.480
The snare tone, period, let alone what he played, how he played it, why he played it.
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:04.320
And and uh that's what I want.
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:06.320
That's the status I want.
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:09.199
The other shit's gonna be gone when you die anyway.
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.440
It doesn't, it doesn't mean anything.
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:15.119
Uh you know, uh really a mensch is what you want to be.
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:16.719
You want to be a drumming mensch.
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:21.519
You want to inspire others to to move forward, to keep going.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:26.639
That's that's the thing that brings the the joy, that's what puts a smile on your face.
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:41.599
I mean, you know, that it's that thing, you know, you you when you're a kid, you put a set of headphones on, man, and you and you're listening to like levee breaks at the point of where like your jaw's doing that thing, like, and you're like, I'm gonna lose my hearing, but I don't care.
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:44.800
That's that's still the shit.
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:50.000
That that doesn't that that does more to me than anything.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:50.800
You know?
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:59.760
We did um a thing in Vegas, the side heart radio thing, and Muse was playing on the same night, and their sound check.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.639
When we arrived at the arena, they were sound checking.
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.960
Fucking brilliant.
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:20.800
I mean, muse's taking some heat, you know, because I don't know, maybe whatever they did on this new record, but all of that stuff, like uh the you know, he I don't know the drummer's name, please forgive me, but it was great.
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:23.840
I was totally moved by this thing.
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:30.079
But he was doing a thing like where he had, you know, he's obviously triggering his drums on certain songs.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:33.840
They did six songs in a 30-minute set.
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:40.400
And he, you know, their thing is is very, very detail-oriented, obviously.
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:42.400
But his sounds changed every song.
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.760
One song would be just the kit on the floor, you know.
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:52.800
Next song he would be playing, he's not not even playing drums, he's just playing, you know, like on that madness tune.
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:55.519
You know, he's just playing a cat or something like that.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:04.719
But the size of the sounds and the power of it, it kind of put me back in a really good place.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:09.519
I'm like, fuck, man, that is some big dick shit right there.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:17.519
Like they came in and they had all of their pyro and it sounded like a fucking million dollars.
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:22.719
They probably lost so much money by playing that gig.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:25.920
But I mean, I will never forget it.
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:38.480
It it it had the the I know musically there and and even creatively, they're they're nothing like Pink Floyd, but it had that size, that like cinematic, holy fuck.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:45.519
Like I felt that thing of like a kid of that there was something very mysterious going on that I didn't fully understand.
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:53.119
But, you know, as as my intellect kicked in and I could watch what was going on, is a lot of the shit was happening on the floor.
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:58.079
There wasn't a big, there wasn't a guy going meh, you know, and they were up there, you know.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:04.239
It was and and it was and dude can sing like a motherfucker.
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:06.639
Anyway, that's my my news kick.
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.679
But what I'm saying is that that's what you want to do.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.239
You want to move people, whatever you're playing.
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:15.679
It doesn't it the genre or do you think you do that?
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.519
Um I mean, yeah, I think I mean I know you get it.
00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:43.599
Yeah, I think yeah, I mean I get enough, you know, I mean another thing that's good about the the internet too is I do get, you know, I get the feedback and and um you know it it it it is it does it's also motivating you know it's motivating for me, you know, to to hear it and know that people are listening and and you know there is selfishness in it too.
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:47.199
I would still go about the way that I'm going about things.
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:59.920
You know, at the end of the day, it's like you know, I'm still feeding my own ego with it, but it's nice to know that you can you can accommodate other people in that that that at the same time.
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:03.199
That's really the essence, I think, of uh Session Player.
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:04.239
Write that down.
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.519
Uh is is really that.
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:18.960
It's like, you know, you you you do have to um, you know, it's part service industry, part this is purely my style, this is how I do it.
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:26.079
But we're gonna walk out of here with you getting what you what you need and what you want, you know.
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:33.360
I don't, you know, uh believe in the real kiss ass thing.
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:34.559
I hate that.
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:43.360
You know, I think there needs to be, you know, some like uh there just there just has to be some formality in that part, you know.
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:52.480
What do you think about you you you're talking about the museum the muse thing and and then the idea of being a session session guy?
00:47:52.559 --> 00:48:01.119
So walking into a record where you have to basically do you feel ever behind the eight ball as a session guy, as opposed to like a band that's a band.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.920
They have a band sound, they've worked on these songs, they've pre-productioned it for six months or whatever it is.
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:13.840
You're walking in cold, you may be hearing the demo five minutes before you track it, and you have to make it go in there and make it feel like a band that's been playing for a while.
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:20.960
Like how do you uh well that's in the I mean to me the biggest part of that is in the experience of it, like having done it.
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.679
Um But that is the key, you know.
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:36.559
It's it's very easy to uh for for it to be like the default of a session player is a certain line, and it's just gonna be that.
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:42.159
And then it's how do we how do we specialize what this event is, you know?
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:47.440
And and I would say that's why you have to listen to a lot of different music.
00:48:47.760 --> 00:49:10.159
That's why you have to um have a balance of, you know, in your library of listening to how Jeff Ricardo would play a ballad, but you also want to listen to the way that you know Levon Helm played a ballad, and the way Ringo played a ballad, and the way Nigel Olson played a ballad.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:13.280
And what are what's what's modern?
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:16.639
What what are what are drummers doing now, you know?
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:24.559
Um and it's tough because it there isn't a lot of like real shit on the floor, but it but it but it is out there.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:34.400
I mean, you know, uh I mean Dave Grohl is a perfect example of somebody to listen to who wears both hats.
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:37.440
I mean, he plays on a lot of other people's records.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:44.880
And you know, there is a difference between what he does in that setting and what he does, you know, when he's playing with the foos.
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:51.199
You'll see, you'll hear him shift gears quite a bit more, like on that new um Queens of the Stone Age record.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:58.960
I mean, sonically and just his touch, he's you know, um that's what that's what you gotta find.
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:08.719
You know, you you have to almost, I guess to answer your question, you really have to believe that you're someone else at that moment in a way.
00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:17.599
Like, you know, if I were a band and and we were doing this, you know, what would I want this to be like live?
00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:22.960
That's a that's an important thing, is to think about how someone's going to play this live.
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:25.440
How is this going to be reproduced?
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:34.159
Um, and the advantage of touring, as you know, is that you do play in front of live people and you see what works and what doesn't.
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:34.960
You know?
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:41.679
And I don't think, you know, and not to lean too heavy on the rules, but your experience is what you bring into that.
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:42.960
That's why it's different.
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:49.760
If somebody says to you, make this feel live, it's like, well fuck, I don't want to do that.
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:56.320
What what uh are you scared of referencing in the studio that that goes on in Nashville?
00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:57.599
Yeah, sometimes.
00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:58.400
Not not not.
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:00.400
Like from you or from a producer?
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:05.519
Would you ever say, either one, yeah, you know, to myself, well, it's kind of like a Chester Thompson-y kind of thing.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:07.840
Yeah, maybe I could do that and that'd work somehow in here.
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:08.480
Exactly.
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:08.639
Yeah.
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:11.360
Yeah, and somebody'd be like, I don't know what I don't know what that is.
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:11.679
Yeah.
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:13.519
And then and then I'll play it for them.
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:13.920
Uh-huh.
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:21.840
And what's great is it's never exactly like it, you know, and and but it does lead people down a pathway that's really cool.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:25.519
And sometimes it's so subtle, but it does change.
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:33.519
But yes, to to to reference stuff, and and again, that that falls into the thing of not being too too um thin-skinned.
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:38.320
If somebody's says to you, because you gotta remember what this is about is communication.
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:51.039
If a producer doesn't know how to say with words what he wants you to play, and he's playing you a reference, he's basically saying, I don't really know how to communicate this any better than playing this for you.
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.400
Then it's fine.
00:51:52.800 --> 00:52:08.880
If somebody says to you they know you're a fan of whomever, if you're if they know that you're a huge fan of Tommy Lee, they know that that's gonna push a right button in you to play a certain way, and they say, Man, make this feel like Tommy Lee.
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:10.559
Well, that's just communication.
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:15.199
That's not, man, I sure wish Tommy Lee was here, and I hate you.
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:17.920
You know, that's not what it's about.
00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:28.960
And if you take that and and and put it into all the aspects of communication between you and the producer, you know, then it changes it.
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:50.079
You just have to believe that, you have to believe in the fact that you're there at that moment, even if it's a little bit uncomfortable, even if you've decided I'm not gonna work with these people again, you can still learn from the whole situation, you know, which is just how to collaborate with other people, you know, um, because that's how you learn.
00:52:50.320 --> 00:53:01.199
You're gonna pick something up from even someone who's the the the biggest asshole, you know, just vibe-wise and personality in the room.
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:03.360
You you can learn something from that person.
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:05.920
It might be, man, I never want to do that.
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:06.880
What not to do?
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:07.440
Yeah.
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:09.280
Or I've man, I've done that.
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:11.760
Ooh, now I know how it feels on the other end.
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:13.599
You know.
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.559
Um You were mentioned earlier Larry London.
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:16.960
Yeah.
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:17.920
Did you get to know Larry?
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:18.320
Oh yeah.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:19.679
Tell me about Larry London.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:29.679
Man, he was um he was he was physically huge, but he was huge just personality-wise and energy-wise.
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:41.519
Um, I mean, the first time I'd ever even known about him was like looking at drum catalogs, you know, and and then when I moved to Nashville, the only names I knew really were Eddie and Larry, you know.
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:49.360
Well, the second day that I was in Nashville, I was at his drum shop uh that he and his wife ran called DOG Percussion.
00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:58.800
And um the reason why Larry even opened the drum shop is because nobody could get access to any gear like you could live in New York or LA.
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:03.760
And he had done sessions and and you know, basically This was all before Forks.
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:05.440
Way before Forks, yeah.
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:08.320
And so he opened his own shop, you know.
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:13.920
But it was within months that DOG closed and Gary opened his place.
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.960
It was only like this is like nine months or something like that.
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.679
But DOG had been open for years.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:25.360
So I walked in to to just buy like a real snare drum, and Larry was there.
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:32.480
And you know, he was uh he's from, you know, he's born and raised in Detroit.
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:34.639
He was not gentle.
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:38.239
But that that that energy didn't bother me at all.
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:45.519
I mean, I that's everybody, you know, that's the way my dad was very like, you know, kind of gruff and you know what I mean?
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:46.960
You just had man's man.
00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:49.840
Yeah, you just had to kind of go, you know, yeah, hey mister.
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:56.480
Uh but we talked a little bit and he asked me, you know, what I was doing and and invited me to a session.
00:54:57.199 --> 00:54:58.639
And to just hang.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:54:59.280
Yeah.
00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:12.880
You know, he was he he could tell that I I didn't know what I was doing, and he was nice enough to just say, well you should come come to a session, see, see what it is that you will be required to do.
00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:14.800
That is the best thing.
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:16.000
That that's it.
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:24.960
And you can I don't know, it's the only experience other than actually doing it that that is as beneficial, you know.
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.360
Uh so it was great.
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:45.360
I I you know it was at um a studio called Omni, Omni Sound in Nashville, and at this point he was using, he had a real kick, and he had a uh a snare that was real, and his toms were D-drums, and his cymbals were real.
00:55:45.920 --> 00:56:14.880
And it was for some country artists, I can't remember, but what I learned was the drummer runs the session, count-offs, just him, his uh focus on the producer and when it was time to do it, he basically was was the conduit, and he wasn't um, you know, this was in in Nashville, there's really not like a leader leader or an arranger.
00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:18.639
But when Larry is there, that was it.
00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:22.000
He was like, this is this is what's happening, you know.
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:32.880
Uh and the sense that, you know, we're not fucking around, you know, this is somebody's money that's being spent, you know.
00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:46.400
But when he played, just the intensity of it, and and uh being in a control room and then going and sitting out next to him with a pair of headphones on and frightening.
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:50.400
The guy was like, I mean, people talk about people playing loud.
00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:57.280
Loud is one thing, but like a loud, even tone, that's a different thing.
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:02.320
I don't mean like where stuff was like poking out and like, ow, and oh, those cymbals are kind of loud.
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:06.159
I'm talking about where it was like getting punched, you know.
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:15.440
And what you take from that is what he was doing was playing evenly throughout the kit.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.360
Now this was something that this was the type of song that you would want to do that, you know.
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:32.239
There's other sorts, the touch the touch was like, you know, this was the analog, you know, and uh he, you know, he was showing me just the meters and he went, see, that's what you want to do.
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:36.239
You you're you're wanting to peg in the same spot on this particular song.
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:41.519
So then the reason why you do that is that it gives the engineer more control.
00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:58.320
Um and if if I all of a sudden play, you know, four or five dB quieter in the song, if I'm floating like that, then it'll be perceived that the time is moving.
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:00.480
I was like, what?
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:02.800
He's like, oh yeah.
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:05.599
He says it's like it's almost like the Doppler effect.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:15.599
He said, if if you your velocity and your time, those are very much connected things.
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:18.960
I was just like, oh my god.
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:23.280
But what what what you know it's a funny thing.
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:32.960
If you were to play to a click and you and and you're changing the velocity of your kick drum throughout the groove, it'll feel like time is doing something different than it is.
00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:37.440
Even if you lined it up, it's not it's not gonna feel that way.
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:46.239
But if you just play something at full velocity that's even throughout the whole track and it floats time-wise, nobody's gonna hear that.
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:51.599
They're gonna be they're gonna they're they're whipped back into the pocket every time.
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:54.480
Because it's it's a reliable thing.
00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:55.840
It's not, you know.
00:58:56.159 --> 00:58:57.679
So can you hit hard?
00:58:57.920 --> 00:58:59.920
As long as it's consistent, you can hit hard?
00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:11.119
Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I I have a certain basic level that I that I play at, but I I don't think that it's more about just having a tone and the and the tone that suits you.
00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:13.360
I don't it you know what I mean.
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:14.960
I Do you change your touch?
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:15.599
Oh yeah.
00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:16.480
You do.
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:25.519
I mean, obviously I get it for a soft thing and it's a heavier thing, but I mean do you have like your levels is is it at that point?
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:33.199
Yeah, I mean it it changes so much the way that um the rest of the band is reacting to.
00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:43.920
And it just it's easier to fall to to to make yourself different than than who you are, if you will, like casting yourself on a song, you know.
00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:58.639
I mean, like a big thing, an easy thing to do is, you know, obviously it's it's very it's probably on its way out, but you know, like throwing tea towels on your toms and stuff, well you can't you can't hit those drums hard.
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:04.159
If you're going to do that, you know, you know there's a certain velocity point where it's just right.
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:08.320
If you go over it, then it it doesn't sound right, you know.
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:16.079
Um so that same philosophy just I think applies to all of it, you know.
01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:33.440
You can easily, I mean you get more uh benefit from having a few different size sticks, you know, and and playing into the music that way as opposed to just going, this is what I do, this is the only way I play, that's it.
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:34.400
You know?
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:41.760
Um it's it's kind of funny, it's almost like you have to develop that and then undevelop it in a way.
01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:55.199
But it's really just about being able to, you know, play consistently at whatever velocity, you know, and it and it has to do with your tuning and your touch and what do you want them to sound like, you know.
01:00:55.360 --> 01:01:03.440
It's always fascinating to me when you see a drummer play in front of you that you've heard on record or or whatever.
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:05.920
It's it's it's awesome.
01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:07.840
I always learn something from that.
01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:18.159
Like, man, I would have no idea that that person's foot was that loud or uh, you know, or something to do with their backbeat, you know.
01:01:18.559 --> 01:01:20.880
The symbol thing I will say is a rule.
01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:23.519
No one should ever hit their symbols hard.
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:25.440
It's just awful.
01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:29.119
That's gotta go.
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:32.079
I don't understand why people can't hear that.
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:34.639
It should never be, you know what I mean?
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:39.360
There's there's a specific level one should hit their hi-hats and symbols.
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:40.800
I'm gonna go on record and say that.
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:42.800
That that should be, that is, that's a rule.
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:45.039
That's a rule, that one.
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:45.840
I hate that.
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:47.599
God, I fucking hate that.
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:50.880
And I also hate when I can't hear a ride symbol too.
01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:58.880
I like dark symbols and all, but you can't, to me, if you're playing your hi-hats, and then you go to the ride and the energy drops.
01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:00.159
I hate that.
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:03.280
Put a mic on it or something.
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:06.880
What else did you learn about London?
01:02:07.360 --> 01:02:23.119
Um I I learned um just uh you know, just simple things like tapping out, you know, coming up with the tempo of the song and having your click track, and you provide that.
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:33.440
Um this was a point where like I think he had a Lin drum with him too, you know, so he was doing some shakers and tambourines and stuff like that to go along with the track.
01:02:33.760 --> 01:02:35.199
It was my introduction to all that.
01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:38.880
I didn't know anything like that, but that's where I didn't find out his own charts?
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:40.800
No, these were charts that were handed out.
01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:41.599
What about you?
01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:46.880
Is it do you ever do you arrive and charts are written, or do you listen through and make your own cheat sheets as you go?
01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:49.599
I'd say 75% of the time they're pre-written.
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:50.159
Oh yeah?
01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:50.480
Yeah.
01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:52.000
Or somebody just fires one out on them.
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:56.960
Yeah, and you know what, in in drummer speak, man, you're really just looking at bars.
01:02:57.119 --> 01:02:57.280
Okay.
01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:58.400
It's real it's really what it is.
01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:01.440
You're looking at bars, and occasionally there's pushes and accents.
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:01.760
Yeah.
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:03.519
Um, and it changes.
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:09.360
You know, the reason why it's not on there is usually we run it through and we're adding things.
01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:15.920
It's it's um it's really just because not all of it is worked out ahead of time, to be honest with you.
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:28.480
You know, it's it's it's not like you know, way back in the in in the day when in the 70s and the early 80s, where everything was pre-arranged and you were handed, you know, basically everything written out.
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:37.039
I mean you would change things occasionally, but it's basically, you know, your kick patterns and stuff like that, that's that's all been worked out ahead of time.
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:46.400
Uh it wasn't so it was really about the singer, not so much really what you were doing, although you know your style could still come through.
01:03:46.639 --> 01:03:52.239
Now, you know, producers and artists are more reliant on what's happening on the floor, actually, you know.
01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:58.719
I mean it's it's they're it gives them the ability to do something different, make a decision on the spot.
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:18.480
It's part of that, the technology thing too, is is like, you know, rather than getting into the big debate about what, you know, what sounds better, you know, A being, you know, the same base or something on both systems and going, well, you know, the analog sounds better.
01:04:18.800 --> 01:04:23.360
Really at this point, we should be making the most badass shit possible.
01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:25.440
There's no excuse to not do it.
01:04:25.679 --> 01:04:28.320
It should be completely open-ended, you know.
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:30.639
Um, and the same thing as live.
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:50.400
I mean, you know, what you what you guys are doing, uh, live is I mean, that's a perfect blend of it's it's performance oriented and yet, you know, via the aid of a computer and all of that stuff is like those are not, you know, voodoo terms.
01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:59.599
Those are just like, it's almost like dive in there, don't be shy with the thing, and figure out what works for you.
01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:04.880
It's not, you know, rather than again, it's like talking about politics, it's like fuck all of that shit.
01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:15.280
Just, I mean, man, you know, drum machines were supposedly gonna knock drummers out of work in 1983 or so or 84, right?
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:23.360
I mean, here we are, you know, God, 30 years later, and it's the same shit.
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:25.360
And it's not happening.
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:27.039
There's it's not happening.
01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:33.039
Drummers are not getting it, it's either you're you're you're good or great, or you're not.
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:38.400
Either you can you can offer something that no one else can or you can't.
01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:48.480
And you know, if a song becomes a hit and it has a drum machine on it, yes, there's gonna be a big rash of drum machine songs.
01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:53.280
That's just like you know, that's just the way that shit works.
01:05:53.840 --> 01:05:59.840
But if a song comes out and it's got a live drummer on it and it's a hit, well you bet you're right.
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:03.679
Live drummers are gonna get a lot of calls.
01:06:03.920 --> 01:06:10.800
You know, they're gonna call that guy, and you know, then when he's all booked up, they're gonna call other people.
01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:17.280
That's why you should stop thinking about how something has killed something and just keep creating, you know?
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:21.039
It because it's that stuff is it changes all the time.
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:27.840
It it's not, you know, there's it's you can't control any of it, you know.
01:06:28.159 --> 01:06:34.400
Um so do you get involved in the uh Ableton programming in the studio?
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:35.599
Oh yeah, yeah.
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:37.760
Cannot live without it.
01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:53.440
I mean that that um to me, I mean, we're really at the point, you know, there's there's no reason for for a drummer to not be very adept at at working with whatever your platform choice is, you know.
01:06:53.599 --> 01:07:01.679
Like, but as long as you can you can program, you can do loops, you can record you like you have a mic going into it.
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:16.400
And if anybody's listening to this and they don't know how to do that, go and watch um Chamberlain's YouTube channel, and you'll you'll see, you know, what what you know what possibilities that there are.
01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:23.599
Uh and look at look at uh any of the Gautier live stuff, uh, because that's what we're talking about.
01:07:23.679 --> 01:07:28.639
It's just a balance between what the computer does and what the live musicians on the floor do.
01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:30.880
And you don't have to do the stuff to a click.
01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:36.480
I mean you're gonna have to play, if you're using a loop and you don't want to use a click, then you've got to play with that loop, you know.
01:07:36.559 --> 01:07:39.519
It just makes it a little easier to have the click, you know.
01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:42.800
But uh that that that's really where we're at.
01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:45.840
I mean, you know, that's exciting to me.
01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:48.960
That's that's not threatening or or scary, you know.
01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:50.400
That that's all the good stuff.
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:54.880
It it it um it should push you creatively, you know.
01:07:54.960 --> 01:08:10.239
I mean it's funny, now's the time, you know, for there to be um I mean I I think it's it I think it's it's gonna happen too for a new set of musicians that come in that are pretty phenomenal, you know.
01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:22.560
I've done a little bit of work with the Grammy Camp stuff, and I mean there are some some kids who are, you know, from the 15 to 20 year old that are fantastic.
01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:54.000
That it's it's not you know it's not shoegazing and it's also not um elitist, like, you know, like uh how anybody can be with any of their genres, but you know, a a um you know often people in in jazz are are viewed as being elitist in that, but they they're coming into music with having been exposed just by the internet of stuff that's all over the map.
01:08:54.239 --> 01:09:11.199
And they're not looking at it the way that we did, as far as, you know, like well, if you're gonna do sessions, you do blank, and if you're gonna be a jazzer, you do blank, and if you're gonna be in a rock and roll band, it's all just a big, you know, uh soup to them now.
01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:12.560
It doesn't mean anything.
01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:16.239
They're they're just moved by the joy of making music.
01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:23.039
They're not, you know, to a degree, almost everybody's famous anyway, so that shit doesn't mean anything to them.
01:09:23.119 --> 01:09:25.840
It's like, yeah, I'm on the internet or whatever.
01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:29.520
Or I tweeted, they don't fucking care about any of that.
01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:34.319
They're just the the thing that motivates them is playing great in a room with other musicians.
01:09:34.479 --> 01:09:39.920
Which is funny because that goes all the way back to why it started in the first place, you know.
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:41.439
So I that that's what I think.
01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:48.479
I think things have been become just at that breaking point where they are gonna get it's gonna go backwards.
01:09:48.640 --> 01:10:12.720
You know, I'm not saying that we're you know we're gonna have another Led Zeppelin or another Beatles or whatever the fuck any of that means, but I just think spontaneous music, you know, and by that I mean just stuff that's made by people on the floor, and the floor meaning, either in a recorded situation or live, is really going to be, you know, better than it's ever been.
01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:15.279
There's no reason for it not to be, you know.
01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:18.560
Um so that's it.
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:20.239
Let me ask you this.
01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:26.640
Why is Chris McHugh not on the new or you are on the new Keith Urban record, but you're not on all the tracks.
01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:27.840
Why?
01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:31.039
Oh man, I just can't play anymore.
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:31.840
Um, no.
01:10:32.079 --> 01:10:37.119
Uh I mean he wanted to do a lot of different a lot of different things.
01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:39.520
Um he worked with a lot of different producers.
01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:41.520
There's a lot of programming on it.
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:44.159
Um So this was discussed.
01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:45.359
No, no, no.
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:47.119
I mean, it's not like it's funny.
01:10:47.199 --> 01:10:59.840
Uh um in the process of him making this record, I wasn't really involved in it the way that I have been in the past, and and not like um, you know, there was no like ill will to it.
01:10:59.920 --> 01:11:06.560
He just had a specific thing, you know, uh, of of what he was trying to achieve.
01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:10.640
Uh I mean I played on there were a lot of songs that didn't go on the album.
01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:19.039
There were there were probably five other tracks other than I think I'm only on two, but does he come to you and beforehand and just let you know heads up?
01:11:19.359 --> 01:11:19.680
No.
01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:21.279
You find out like everyone else?
01:11:21.439 --> 01:11:22.000
Yeah, oh yeah.
01:11:22.319 --> 01:11:24.800
Album comes out and you're like, hey, what yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:28.800
No, that that all that stuff is It's just not discussed.
01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:29.439
No.
01:11:31.359 --> 01:11:34.880
I mean that's I would say that's just kind of the way it is.
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:35.920
That's the way it is.
01:11:36.079 --> 01:11:45.359
You know, there there is the romance of thinking that you'll always be involved in, you know, uh I'm the guy, I'm his drummer.
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:45.920
Right.
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:47.279
No, no, no.
01:11:47.600 --> 01:12:07.439
I mean, you know, um uh at this point, you know, like uh being on tour, it's really just about taking those things that were programmed and making them work um being played, you know, and finding that balance and and how to do that.
01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:16.159
I mean, and that's you know, there's I could get prideful about it and just go, well, this is just stupid programmed bullshit, blah blah blah.
01:12:16.319 --> 01:12:36.159
But I actually like the idea of thinking about how do I portray this live, and it's also nice that when you do figure it out and you know people tell you, man, that feels so much better than the record, then you're like, you know, that's it.
01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:38.239
Job well done.
01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:43.439
You know, it's just a part of of of the way of of the way kind of music is.
01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:51.199
I mean, that that's a perfect example of of like of how of of the lack of uh formality that there is with it.
01:12:51.359 --> 01:12:55.439
I mean, you know, Keith does stuff with me, he does stuff without me.
01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:58.479
It's not like, you know, I mean, we're not in a band, you know.
01:12:58.720 --> 01:12:59.039
Right.
01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:02.960
Well you called it a marriage earlier, so I I guess it's a little bit open marriage.
01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:04.239
Well, yeah.
01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:11.760
I mean, you know, like it's it's more of a marriage in the sense of just kind of being on tour, being being out on tour, you know.
01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:12.239
Right.
01:13:12.479 --> 01:13:16.560
Um, you know, that that's that's it more than anything.
01:13:16.640 --> 01:13:26.399
But you know, he it it um the most interaction that I have is is more just in the actual band guys as far as stuff, you know.
01:13:27.359 --> 01:13:36.800
His schedule is at a point of where it's not really like, you know, a bulk of the rehearsal and stuff is done without him, you know, just putting things together.
01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:38.239
You're the MD?
01:13:38.479 --> 01:13:39.119
Yes.
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:51.199
And um, you know, the one thing is that the one track on on the record uh that I played on, which is called Cop Car, actually cut those drums at my house.
01:13:51.680 --> 01:13:53.520
And uh, so that's fun.
01:13:53.760 --> 01:13:54.560
I like that.
01:13:54.720 --> 01:14:10.560
That was, you know, um just a song that was programmed that um I actually just had commented on it to the producer, the co-writer of the song, and just said, man, you know, this would actually benefit from having some live drums on it, you know.
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:28.239
And so he just he sent me the file, and then I played it on, uh played on it at my house and sent it uh back out to the producer who had um a guy named John Fields, who's another producer, bass player, and he played on it.
01:14:28.319 --> 01:14:35.279
So it was kind of one of those weird things where no one was ever really in the same room, but I'm really happy with how it came out, you know.
01:14:35.520 --> 01:14:37.760
Are you doing most stuff these days at home?
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:39.119
No, not most stuff.
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:40.800
Most stuff's still in the studio.
01:14:41.039 --> 01:14:41.439
Yeah.
01:14:41.680 --> 01:14:47.760
The stuff that I uh am producing and developing on my own is is all at my house.
01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:54.159
And, you know, I would say, you know, maybe 10-15% of what I do is at my house.
01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:56.880
Everything else is is at a studio.
01:14:57.039 --> 01:15:05.279
I mean, I like I like working at my house, you know, but it's not really set up to the most I can track is like bass drums and guitar.
01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:10.720
So it's typically just I'm just putting drums down, you know.
01:15:11.920 --> 01:15:21.359
Uh and it just has to do with with, you know, it's budget stuff, it's um kind of an an afterthought.
01:15:21.439 --> 01:15:38.399
Sometimes people get to the end of a record, you know, a song, and they're like, this could use them live drums, you know, and rather than um, you know, for different cities or whatever, just being able to send the file and do that, you know.
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:42.640
Um I mean that that's a that's a reality.
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:44.399
It's just kind of where we're at right now.
01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:47.039
How long have you been doing the home studio thing?
01:15:47.199 --> 01:15:47.760
A couple years.
01:15:47.840 --> 01:15:48.000
Yeah.
01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:49.439
Two years, yeah.
01:15:51.520 --> 01:16:01.600
Any particular reason you just kind of sunk a bunch of money into that or just thought, well that's a that's where it's headed, or you just wanted to have that that backup or I did it for mainly my own my own stuff.
01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:02.000
Yeah.
01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:02.399
Yeah.
01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:24.000
I've got um uh a couple of different artists that I'm that I'm working with right now that are uh there's no way to, you know, I can't, you know, to be able to go into a studio and try to do things on spec um is uh I can't, you know, that's a favor you can't keep asking, you know.
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:36.960
So it's more about being being it's nice to to especially with new artists to be able to take the time creatively and not feel that budget part.
01:16:37.039 --> 01:16:41.600
It's like, you know, you can do whole songs and go, well that's not it.
01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:45.760
And and trash it and start all over again, you know.
01:16:46.239 --> 01:16:59.920
Um you know, if we were in a band, we would just go to rehearsal hall and set up a cassette and record the song, and you'd go, yeah, that's the arrangement, and then you go into the studio.
01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:04.000
Now it's just, you know, you're you're you know, you're kind of starting there first.
01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:10.960
And but it, you know, your your intention has to remain the same, which is you're just trying to get the best thing.
01:17:11.199 --> 01:17:11.840
You know.
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:16.880
Some of that pressure of of the budget stuff might be what's wrong, too, you know.
01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:21.840
Some of that of having that sense of urgency about it.
01:17:22.479 --> 01:17:24.800
But I I think that whole thing is such a trickle-down.
01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:40.239
It's like I think the the the throwaway part of music starts at the top and it and it falls down, you know, like it it doesn't feel as important um as a s as a society to me.
01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:41.920
That's that's that's just my opinion, you know.
01:17:42.079 --> 01:17:43.520
There's a a lot of debate about that.
01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:51.760
I mean, as a kid, you know, you there weren't really things that could take up your time anyway, you know.
01:17:51.920 --> 01:18:03.199
It's like either we're a sports guy or you're a music guy, you know, or you're a uh, you know, a mechanics kind of guy.
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:05.680
Uh, and that was it.
01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:15.520
You know, we didn't have video games and and and stuff, and if anything, you know, music just has to pull at you harder than it ever did before.
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:17.680
It was a little easier then, you know.
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:24.239
But um to me that that's that's just another reason why it even has to be better, you know.
01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:29.439
Uh yeah.
01:18:29.840 --> 01:18:31.520
You started off in the Christian thing.
01:18:31.840 --> 01:18:32.880
I did Nashville, right?
01:18:33.119 --> 01:18:33.680
I did, yeah.
01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:35.199
Um sorry.
01:18:39.279 --> 01:19:00.800
Um I did, I I uh I need to wrap up in about 15 minutes, but um Yeah, I moved to Nashville um to, well, I auditioned for a group called Whiteheart, which is actually a a band that um Dan Huff was in originally.
01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:17.920
And it's you know, I came down and I flew down and auditioned, and it was between me and another guy, and um They decided to just take each of us out, like on a weekend run or whatever.
01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:24.000
And uh, you know, I I went first and so they they didn't call the other guy.
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:46.319
But yeah, and I was was in that band for about four and a half years and and uh was doing started to do uh sessions kind of immediately, you know, like I really didn't know what I was doing, you know, like in 85 and stuff, and then kind of um just you know learned.
01:19:46.800 --> 01:19:56.479
And uh and then by I I quit in in 90, so like five years.
01:19:56.960 --> 01:20:00.560
Um Does it get you involved in a whole scene though?
01:20:00.640 --> 01:20:01.119
That's what I mean.
01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:04.399
Yeah, I mean it it's there is that Christian music scene in Nashville.
01:20:04.560 --> 01:20:04.720
Yeah.
01:20:05.359 --> 01:20:06.079
Are you part of that?
01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:08.159
Were you part of uh I'm not, no.
01:20:08.239 --> 01:20:13.680
I mean I you know there's I play on maybe one Christian record a year.
01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:17.119
Um Do you have to show up at church to get these gigs?
01:20:17.439 --> 01:20:17.920
I don't know.
01:20:18.079 --> 01:20:23.439
I don't uh um I mean it it's it it is it's definitely a thing, you know.
01:20:23.520 --> 01:20:30.079
There's there's there's a whole um side to Christian music and um it's like anything.
01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:32.640
There's a lot of good in it and there's a lot of shit in it too.
01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:36.000
There's a lot of I just was wondering if you have to be real, if you know what I'm trying to get at.
01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:36.720
Yeah, yeah.
01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:40.720
Well they're like, uh, excuse me, I didn't see you at s on Sunday.
01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:44.880
So Well, you're good, but you're not that good, you know.
01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:45.840
You know what's funny?
01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:52.720
I think it when it when it comes to the This is gonna sound bad, but I don't I don't think it's Let it sound bad.
01:20:52.800 --> 01:20:53.039
Come on.
01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:55.279
Well, no, I don't I don't think it's really that kind of thing.
01:20:55.359 --> 01:20:59.840
I don't think people bring, you know, I I was not They would let a Jew play on those songs?
01:20:59.920 --> 01:21:00.800
Is that would you say that?
01:21:00.960 --> 01:21:01.279
Totally.
01:21:01.439 --> 01:21:03.039
Okay, as long as he can play.
01:21:03.359 --> 01:21:04.239
I think that's it.
01:21:04.319 --> 01:21:05.520
You know, and it's fair enough.
01:21:05.600 --> 01:21:06.720
It and it just called them out.
01:21:06.800 --> 01:21:07.039
I love it.
01:21:07.359 --> 01:21:09.760
Well, no, I mean it just posed the Christian music seed in that.
01:21:10.079 --> 01:21:12.399
No, I don't think it's not any kind of kind of exposure.
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:16.800
I would say that the like they'd let a Muslim on bass, they'd like to, yeah, they would.
01:21:17.039 --> 01:21:36.159
I think it's what's funny is that some of the that there were a few Christian artists that I worked with that were really got the the human uh condition, if you will, that were not the it's like anything, you know, there there are people in the Christian community who are they're just nuts.
01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:39.199
And then there are some really good people too.
01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:52.479
Uh and I think the balance is is in when you see someone who is at first more than anything is accepting and interested in other people, period.
01:21:53.680 --> 01:21:56.800
And then everything after that, it just gets weird.
01:21:56.880 --> 01:22:11.760
You know, if you're if you have to look a certain way and dress a certain way and act a certain way, and people have to walk on eggshells around you uh because they're afraid of what you might say and do.
01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:16.800
Well, I don't think that has anything to do with uh love at all.
01:22:17.279 --> 01:22:19.840
That's that's just weird and oppressive.
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:28.560
And the thing is, is that that that community, you know, I really learned how to make records in it, you know.
01:22:28.960 --> 01:22:42.000
Uh and then uh other stuff at the same time too, but but there were a few key people that were working in that industry at that point that were um really supportive and and and I learned a lot from.
01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:46.159
But uh now I I don't even know what it's like.
01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:55.520
I mean, I play on um there's one Christian producer that hires me probably about once a year.
01:22:56.399 --> 01:23:02.399
And uh, you know, it's it's no different than any other date that I do, you know.
01:23:02.960 --> 01:23:10.159
Um let me ask you something about uh being from Jersey, coming into Nashville, was there a struggle to get over that?
01:23:10.399 --> 01:23:15.199
Like you're you're not uh one of us, you're you're a northerner, you don't you don't understand this stuff.
01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:25.279
Yeah, I mean, and at that time too, you know, in in in uh you know, in in '85, and there was not any of the progression that is in Nashville now.
01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:26.399
You know, Mike, you've been there.
01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:33.680
I mean, it's there's elements of it that feel a little bit like LA as far as the types of people that are there.
01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:36.800
You definitely have the redneck side of things, you know, too.
01:23:37.039 --> 01:23:54.319
But um, you know, back then it was very much a country music town, you know, with with country people, good and bad, you know, but it was very st uh, you know, the stereotypes were were flaming at that point, yeah.
01:23:54.720 --> 01:23:59.039
And but as you met people, you know, I mean you you know you meet Larry London.
01:23:59.119 --> 01:24:00.159
Well he's from Detroit.
01:24:00.319 --> 01:24:11.920
He's not he's he's not a he didn't grow up in a holler and you know uh you know you you you see that it's it's really not that.
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:14.560
That's just sort of a perceived kind of thing.
01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:18.640
Now, I mean there's it's it's it's very eclectic, you know.
01:24:18.720 --> 01:24:28.399
There's there's uh oh yeah, I mean just like you're not from the right part of no definitely well and I was I was young, mouthy.
01:24:28.720 --> 01:24:30.560
Did you ever consider wearing a cowboy hat?
01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:30.880
No.
01:24:31.119 --> 01:24:33.520
That never you never but it's happened.
01:24:34.479 --> 01:24:35.760
You've worn one, you're saying.
01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:36.319
Oh yeah.
01:24:36.560 --> 01:24:37.600
Because you were told to, though.
01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:38.239
No.
01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:38.720
Oh.
01:24:39.039 --> 01:24:42.720
No, you you have too many drinks and you put on a cowboy hat or something.
01:24:43.439 --> 01:24:45.680
No, I've never done one for like an act or something.
01:24:45.920 --> 01:24:49.039
You never thought about maybe I should start wearing the hat and the boots and the whole thing.
01:24:49.439 --> 01:24:50.720
No, that didn't never happen.
01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:51.199
Yeah.
01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:52.800
I'm not a cowboy.
01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:53.199
Yeah.
01:24:53.359 --> 01:24:54.960
I I'm not, you know.
01:24:55.199 --> 01:24:55.840
Yeah.
01:24:57.039 --> 01:24:58.079
Didn't didn't do that.
01:24:58.239 --> 01:24:59.119
Yeah, didn't have to do it.
01:24:59.359 --> 01:24:59.680
No.
01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:03.600
And by the way, you guys know each other from Craviato, is that the deal?
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:04.560
Yeah, I think so.
01:25:04.720 --> 01:25:04.880
Yeah.
01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:12.079
Basically, there's a good thing with crab people where if someone comes out to Australia or blah blah blah, you know, they'll hook us up with tickets.
01:25:12.239 --> 01:25:15.600
I went to see Chris play at Rod Laver.
01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:19.119
Yeah, it must have been maybe four years ago now, three, three, four years ago.
01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:32.800
And I actually knew Chris a little bit before that, I got called to do a country record and I had you know two days to figure out how to play modern country music, so I went and bought Keith Urban's greatest hits.
01:25:32.960 --> 01:25:35.760
And I still play along to that record, man, all the time.
01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:39.039
You can ask any of my friends, man, when they come over, I put that stuff on.
01:25:39.279 --> 01:25:42.640
Like, no, no, no, no, seriously, like check out the drumming and the bass playing on this.
01:25:43.039 --> 01:25:44.479
It's fucking incredible.
01:25:45.119 --> 01:25:46.720
They're still not buying it, I'm sure.
01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:47.680
No, they are, man.
01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:50.000
Everybody knows you're a badass, Chris.
01:25:50.239 --> 01:25:51.039
Alright, man.
01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:52.479
I know you gotta get going.
01:25:52.800 --> 01:25:56.560
Um Chris McCugh, folks.
01:25:56.880 --> 01:25:57.760
Thank you for doing this.
01:25:57.920 --> 01:25:58.319
You're welcome.
01:25:58.399 --> 01:26:00.479
And Mike Iveson in on the drop in.
01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:01.359
Yeah, hey.
01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:02.880
We love to have him.
01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:04.479
Thank you, gentlemen.
01:26:04.640 --> 01:26:05.039
Thank you.
01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:05.600
Alright.
01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:07.199
What?