Aakarsh Sharma: Hi Jyoti, welcome to the platform. is a tremendous honour to have you on the show. Although it's our second round, could you introduce yourself to the new audience?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: Hi Aakarsh thank you for inviting me for this podcast. So my name is Jyoti Glory Bernard. am a clinical psychologist associate. I been working for the mental health field for ⁓ like 12 12 plus years. I am also with NipSid. I train the counselors for juvenile justice, who are involved ⁓ in juvenile justice.
Aakarsh Sharma: Later.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: I am also working with an organization in Los Angeles, California. So I look after the revenue cycle management there. I don't see the patients because I'm not licensed over there, of course. ⁓ And I do have a private practice where I see patients online. ⁓ is all ⁓ work.
Aakarsh Sharma: Right, right. this can be a very good segue to about ⁓ having a license and practicing because now that the startup culture ⁓ are apps that essentially provide therapy. So ⁓ what have views on that, like is it even legal?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: No, it's not legal. So according to RCI Mental Health Act 2017 ⁓ who is providing therapy ⁓ to be licensed from RCI. ⁓ I say therapy, means there is a going on. There's a ⁓ going on. ⁓ is something anyone can give. So of course when has ⁓ counseling psychologist clinical psychologist ⁓ so that ⁓ AI cannot the therapy because you will not for cancer and ask ⁓ AI ⁓ to the to do radiotherapy or to do chemotherapy. ⁓ So similarly ⁓ mental health as well.
Aakarsh Sharma: This is a very good point about cancer. Do you think that the opposite party may argue that are healing power of therapy and not radiation? So both things are different.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: There is nothing like healing in therapy. can be done with physical wounds, not the psychological ⁓ wounds because you cannot see it. ⁓ So have to be precise in your treatment. You have to be calculated in your treatment and AI know that because human brain, human issues, mental illness, mental ⁓ these are very areas ⁓ of treatment. There's nothing like healing. Yes social media it is all about healing and stuff ⁓ because I have been practicing ⁓ ⁓ is more of like a treatment the the people the patients who come to me ⁓ is Like purely treatment and not ⁓ healing that kind of stuff. So ⁓ Yes, the opposite party may say that ⁓ but ⁓ AI do it ⁓ because it is very complex. In fact, AI can regress the patient's condition. can aggravate ⁓ the situation. it doesn't know the regulation ⁓ it needs to stop. ⁓ ⁓ trained clinically, ⁓ have the experience, they have the exposure, ⁓ ethics of course, the ethical guidelines and boundary, AI doesn't have that kind of boundary.
Aakarsh Sharma: ethics.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: and they clone your brain so whosoever is the user they just the way ⁓ want. Therapists do not act they do the treatment ⁓ like precise calculated treatment.
Aakarsh Sharma: So ChatGPT might say, ⁓ you are right, others are wrong, which is exact opposite of what the therapists would say. You are wrong here. And the fact that it has been designed by developers to please and make others happy. it goes without question that the discomfort that is faced in therapy is not the same in talking to AI giving you validation.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: ⁓ Yes, of course. Let's say someone comes with psychosis they are using ChatGPT AI would say, first of all, you need to pause here. I am with you. You are absolutely correct.
Aakarsh Sharma: Mm-hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: do one thing. Let's this. ⁓ So, know, these are the dialogues I have actually tested ChatGPT how you know someone let's say I I acted like patient of schizophrenia and ChatGPT just validated all my thoughts. Okay. they not ChatGPT doesn't know that what is going on with the patient ⁓ and they are validating patient. ⁓ So, it kind of patient in most of the cases. And there been cases where, ChatGPT has regressed the psychosis. ⁓ So that was AI induced psychosis, ⁓ you know, there was the full episode of paranoia where the patient killed their family members. it has been in the news as well.
Aakarsh Sharma: Could you define is psychosis for the audience and what is AI induced psychosis? ⁓
Jyoti Glory Bernard: Okay sure, So AI induced psychosis is not a clinical term. for now it is not there in ICD-10 or ICD-11 ⁓ I am sure like ICD has included ⁓ addiction so ⁓ near I feel that AI induced mental illness ⁓ would be in ICD as well because the way it is going ⁓ so ⁓ is where ⁓ the ⁓ ⁓ talk
Aakarsh Sharma: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: they may not take care of their hygiene or may hear the voices ⁓ command ⁓ or ⁓ like auditory hallucinations or visual hallucinations ⁓ where they hearing the voices that you do need to take you do not need to go to the bathroom because ⁓ people have cameras or they are watching you ⁓ or they broadcast your pictures ⁓ okay ⁓ ⁓ function impaired ⁓ Now let's talk about the psychological. In the psychological impairment there is delusion. And can be anything. It can be ⁓ delusion paranoia, delusion ⁓ of delusion reference. The patient may think that they are on ⁓ a secret mission. They are friends with a lot of celebrities but that's not the case, that's not real. They have lakhs and lakhs of money in their bank account but it's like in the minus. And they may say that they ⁓ a celebrity or something of that sort. ⁓ They a lot of energy and they may get irritable. Their mood may get... anxious or suspicious or know elated, elevated or maybe sad and their affect as in the emotion for certain situation. may also feel very lay by, lay by lessen their lot of fluctuation in the affect. ⁓ with social impairment, ⁓ they think ⁓ that neighbors and other people are keeping a watch on them ⁓ because they very important to the society they are on a secret mission ⁓ they are special agent ⁓ that is what schizophrenia is and they may not talk to their family as well because they may think ⁓ my mother has ⁓ poison in my food I'm not going to eat food so that's how the biological function gets impaired ⁓ the patient is not taking food so that is psychosis. Psychosis be found in ⁓ schizophrenia, and ATPD ⁓ are other like ⁓ personality disorder ⁓ these are ⁓ can just I can you know widely ⁓ that these are the disorders where a person can have psychosis and AI psychosis when I say so I I have a of patients now you know that are lot of rape cases going on in India. There a lot of news which is negative around the world. A lot of war is happening. So there is a patient who started saying that I am a part of Illuminati. Why? Because ChatGPT has told me. OK. Jeffrey Epstein is a demon. I am using ChatGPT so much that it is just a thought. Maybe initially it was just a thought but due to this abuse or overuse it created a psychosis
Aakarsh Sharma: Right.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: In some cases they may need therapy and medicines. This is making them anxious. Their sleep cycle is getting impaired. There is a loop happening. It is reassuring your thought whether it is a logical thought
Aakarsh Sharma: Hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: ⁓ not letting you think. ⁓ is just feeding your illogical thought ⁓ the trap keeps going on and on and on. ⁓ they have not slept throughout the night ⁓ they keep researching, they keep reading about, they keep watching ⁓ ⁓ all stuff should be consumed what is there on social media ⁓ ultimately happens is they start ⁓ with logic but when get into
Aakarsh Sharma: Mm-hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: into this loop, their logical thinking goes away, their rational thinking gets impaired. So there is no limit, they go beyond the limit. why ⁓ cannot do therapy. Because will not have the judgment, ⁓ they not have the insight that what is happening ⁓ with person.
Aakarsh Sharma: or a reality check that what are you saying, are you thinking. But an interactive ⁓ platform is a yes man, it can really... ⁓
Jyoti Glory Bernard: AI not become the master. AI should work your assistant. I don't AI platforms but when I use it is mostly for writing an email. I don't use AI for making a treatment plan or notes. AI cannot do that. I am still not using AI as my master but I use sometimes as my assistant. So when you remove AI from the picture, yes, the family members and the friends can just give you a suggestion that maybe you need to see a doctor if you are having these kind of thoughts. Maybe you need to see a therapist. Maybe we can seek help online. Maybe we can go offline and see the professional in person. yeah, that makes very, you know, difference.
Aakarsh Sharma: I I
Jyoti Glory Bernard: I get
Aakarsh Sharma: your time. Yeah. Okay. The last question I want to ask you is, the thesis of therapy is confidentiality at its heart and applications are prone to leaking data, what privacy issues might take place in the so-called therapy that they're taking from AI?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: that ChatGPT data is not secured. ChatGPT can use it anytime. But when we come to therapy, it has to be ⁓ following the ethical guidelines. clinical psychologist, licensed clinical and the ⁓ associates, they follow the ethical And it's an offense. It's a offense if they, you leak the confidentiality. leak the patient's identity. In the US there are some HIPAA compliance AIs. is GPT which can be for making the therapy notes or you know they can use it for like therapists also use it sometimes for creating the notes, creating the treatment plans. Their documentation, must say ⁓ documentation in the US is So they have started using it. Maybe if someone wants to use an AI, ⁓ can ⁓ this. ⁓ I would still say confidentiality be taken care of. It can HIPAA compliant. But again, the when I say the treatment, it cannot do the treatment. So it's better that they should see a mental health professional in person or via online.
Aakarsh Sharma: What services do you offer and how can people reach out to you for your services?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: I been doing online therapy. So have continued with that. ⁓ They reach out to me on my WhatsApp number and they can also reach out to me via Gmail ID. They need to that they need ⁓ the session. ⁓ I usually see patients who with depression, personality disorders, anxiety and ⁓ with ⁓ So the severe cases because I refer the severe cases to the doctors when they the medication or other intervention. ⁓ But if are stable enough to ⁓ get the to understand ⁓ the concept the therapy, then these are the disorders ⁓ which I give treatment for.
Aakarsh Sharma: Thank you so much for being part of the platform. Hope to...
Jyoti Glory Bernard: Thank so much for inviting me.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: Hi Aakarsh thank you for inviting me for this podcast. So my name is Jyoti Glory Bernard. am a clinical psychologist associate. I been working for the mental health field for ⁓ like 12 12 plus years. I am also with NipSid. I train the counselors for juvenile justice, who are involved ⁓ in juvenile justice.
Aakarsh Sharma: Later.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: I am also working with an organization in Los Angeles, California. So I look after the revenue cycle management there. I don't see the patients because I'm not licensed over there, of course. ⁓ And I do have a private practice where I see patients online. ⁓ is all ⁓ work.
Aakarsh Sharma: Right, right. this can be a very good segue to about ⁓ having a license and practicing because now that the startup culture ⁓ are apps that essentially provide therapy. So ⁓ what have views on that, like is it even legal?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: No, it's not legal. So according to RCI Mental Health Act 2017 ⁓ who is providing therapy ⁓ to be licensed from RCI. ⁓ I say therapy, means there is a going on. There's a ⁓ going on. ⁓ is something anyone can give. So of course when has ⁓ counseling psychologist clinical psychologist ⁓ so that ⁓ AI cannot the therapy because you will not for cancer and ask ⁓ AI ⁓ to the to do radiotherapy or to do chemotherapy. ⁓ So similarly ⁓ mental health as well.
Aakarsh Sharma: This is a very good point about cancer. Do you think that the opposite party may argue that are healing power of therapy and not radiation? So both things are different.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: There is nothing like healing in therapy. can be done with physical wounds, not the psychological ⁓ wounds because you cannot see it. ⁓ So have to be precise in your treatment. You have to be calculated in your treatment and AI know that because human brain, human issues, mental illness, mental ⁓ these are very areas ⁓ of treatment. There's nothing like healing. Yes social media it is all about healing and stuff ⁓ because I have been practicing ⁓ ⁓ is more of like a treatment the the people the patients who come to me ⁓ is Like purely treatment and not ⁓ healing that kind of stuff. So ⁓ Yes, the opposite party may say that ⁓ but ⁓ AI do it ⁓ because it is very complex. In fact, AI can regress the patient's condition. can aggravate ⁓ the situation. it doesn't know the regulation ⁓ it needs to stop. ⁓ ⁓ trained clinically, ⁓ have the experience, they have the exposure, ⁓ ethics of course, the ethical guidelines and boundary, AI doesn't have that kind of boundary.
Aakarsh Sharma: ethics.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: and they clone your brain so whosoever is the user they just the way ⁓ want. Therapists do not act they do the treatment ⁓ like precise calculated treatment.
Aakarsh Sharma: So ChatGPT might say, ⁓ you are right, others are wrong, which is exact opposite of what the therapists would say. You are wrong here. And the fact that it has been designed by developers to please and make others happy. it goes without question that the discomfort that is faced in therapy is not the same in talking to AI giving you validation.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: ⁓ Yes, of course. Let's say someone comes with psychosis they are using ChatGPT AI would say, first of all, you need to pause here. I am with you. You are absolutely correct.
Aakarsh Sharma: Mm-hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: do one thing. Let's this. ⁓ So, know, these are the dialogues I have actually tested ChatGPT how you know someone let's say I I acted like patient of schizophrenia and ChatGPT just validated all my thoughts. Okay. they not ChatGPT doesn't know that what is going on with the patient ⁓ and they are validating patient. ⁓ So, it kind of patient in most of the cases. And there been cases where, ChatGPT has regressed the psychosis. ⁓ So that was AI induced psychosis, ⁓ you know, there was the full episode of paranoia where the patient killed their family members. it has been in the news as well.
Aakarsh Sharma: Could you define is psychosis for the audience and what is AI induced psychosis? ⁓
Jyoti Glory Bernard: Okay sure, So AI induced psychosis is not a clinical term. for now it is not there in ICD-10 or ICD-11 ⁓ I am sure like ICD has included ⁓ addiction so ⁓ near I feel that AI induced mental illness ⁓ would be in ICD as well because the way it is going ⁓ so ⁓ is where ⁓ the ⁓ ⁓ talk
Aakarsh Sharma: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: they may not take care of their hygiene or may hear the voices ⁓ command ⁓ or ⁓ like auditory hallucinations or visual hallucinations ⁓ where they hearing the voices that you do need to take you do not need to go to the bathroom because ⁓ people have cameras or they are watching you ⁓ or they broadcast your pictures ⁓ okay ⁓ ⁓ function impaired ⁓ Now let's talk about the psychological. In the psychological impairment there is delusion. And can be anything. It can be ⁓ delusion paranoia, delusion ⁓ of delusion reference. The patient may think that they are on ⁓ a secret mission. They are friends with a lot of celebrities but that's not the case, that's not real. They have lakhs and lakhs of money in their bank account but it's like in the minus. And they may say that they ⁓ a celebrity or something of that sort. ⁓ They a lot of energy and they may get irritable. Their mood may get... anxious or suspicious or know elated, elevated or maybe sad and their affect as in the emotion for certain situation. may also feel very lay by, lay by lessen their lot of fluctuation in the affect. ⁓ with social impairment, ⁓ they think ⁓ that neighbors and other people are keeping a watch on them ⁓ because they very important to the society they are on a secret mission ⁓ they are special agent ⁓ that is what schizophrenia is and they may not talk to their family as well because they may think ⁓ my mother has ⁓ poison in my food I'm not going to eat food so that's how the biological function gets impaired ⁓ the patient is not taking food so that is psychosis. Psychosis be found in ⁓ schizophrenia, and ATPD ⁓ are other like ⁓ personality disorder ⁓ these are ⁓ can just I can you know widely ⁓ that these are the disorders where a person can have psychosis and AI psychosis when I say so I I have a of patients now you know that are lot of rape cases going on in India. There a lot of news which is negative around the world. A lot of war is happening. So there is a patient who started saying that I am a part of Illuminati. Why? Because ChatGPT has told me. OK. Jeffrey Epstein is a demon. I am using ChatGPT so much that it is just a thought. Maybe initially it was just a thought but due to this abuse or overuse it created a psychosis
Aakarsh Sharma: Right.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: In some cases they may need therapy and medicines. This is making them anxious. Their sleep cycle is getting impaired. There is a loop happening. It is reassuring your thought whether it is a logical thought
Aakarsh Sharma: Hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: ⁓ not letting you think. ⁓ is just feeding your illogical thought ⁓ the trap keeps going on and on and on. ⁓ they have not slept throughout the night ⁓ they keep researching, they keep reading about, they keep watching ⁓ ⁓ all stuff should be consumed what is there on social media ⁓ ultimately happens is they start ⁓ with logic but when get into
Aakarsh Sharma: Mm-hmm.
Jyoti Glory Bernard: into this loop, their logical thinking goes away, their rational thinking gets impaired. So there is no limit, they go beyond the limit. why ⁓ cannot do therapy. Because will not have the judgment, ⁓ they not have the insight that what is happening ⁓ with person.
Aakarsh Sharma: or a reality check that what are you saying, are you thinking. But an interactive ⁓ platform is a yes man, it can really... ⁓
Jyoti Glory Bernard: AI not become the master. AI should work your assistant. I don't AI platforms but when I use it is mostly for writing an email. I don't use AI for making a treatment plan or notes. AI cannot do that. I am still not using AI as my master but I use sometimes as my assistant. So when you remove AI from the picture, yes, the family members and the friends can just give you a suggestion that maybe you need to see a doctor if you are having these kind of thoughts. Maybe you need to see a therapist. Maybe we can seek help online. Maybe we can go offline and see the professional in person. yeah, that makes very, you know, difference.
Aakarsh Sharma: I I
Jyoti Glory Bernard: I get
Aakarsh Sharma: your time. Yeah. Okay. The last question I want to ask you is, the thesis of therapy is confidentiality at its heart and applications are prone to leaking data, what privacy issues might take place in the so-called therapy that they're taking from AI?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: that ChatGPT data is not secured. ChatGPT can use it anytime. But when we come to therapy, it has to be ⁓ following the ethical guidelines. clinical psychologist, licensed clinical and the ⁓ associates, they follow the ethical And it's an offense. It's a offense if they, you leak the confidentiality. leak the patient's identity. In the US there are some HIPAA compliance AIs. is GPT which can be for making the therapy notes or you know they can use it for like therapists also use it sometimes for creating the notes, creating the treatment plans. Their documentation, must say ⁓ documentation in the US is So they have started using it. Maybe if someone wants to use an AI, ⁓ can ⁓ this. ⁓ I would still say confidentiality be taken care of. It can HIPAA compliant. But again, the when I say the treatment, it cannot do the treatment. So it's better that they should see a mental health professional in person or via online.
Aakarsh Sharma: What services do you offer and how can people reach out to you for your services?
Jyoti Glory Bernard: I been doing online therapy. So have continued with that. ⁓ They reach out to me on my WhatsApp number and they can also reach out to me via Gmail ID. They need to that they need ⁓ the session. ⁓ I usually see patients who with depression, personality disorders, anxiety and ⁓ with ⁓ So the severe cases because I refer the severe cases to the doctors when they the medication or other intervention. ⁓ But if are stable enough to ⁓ get the to understand ⁓ the concept the therapy, then these are the disorders ⁓ which I give treatment for.
Aakarsh Sharma: Thank you so much for being part of the platform. Hope to...
Jyoti Glory Bernard: Thank so much for inviting me.
