AI Is Optimising the Wrong Things | Shivedita Singh | Human Layer AI Podcast

Aakarsh Sharma: Most conversations about AI start with the machine. This one starts with the human. Welcome to the human layer AI. I'm your host, Aakash Sharma. On this platform, we sit down with leaders, thinkers, and practitioners to understand how AI is leading in their world, the decisions it changes, the profession it displaces, and the layer of human judgment that still remains. Today joining me is Sivedita Singh. We are going to talk about human layer in climate tech. What AI gets wrong about energy transitions. Sivedita Singh is the head of partnerships in Fusion Fashion Tech Society. You've gone from chemical engineering to working on energy and sustainability. Co-founded consulting firm Constructivist and advisory on net zero building led RE124 seven CFE initiatives at climate group. Simultaneously co-founded silly up the mental health community for the youngsters. And for the first time I'm reading from flashcards because your list of achievements is too much. So welcome to the platform. Prevent is honored to have you. Thank you for the wonderful introduction. think there isn't anything you have missed. I started with campaign engineering and I remain fascinated by energy and sustainability. And so I have been opportune to get a lot of opportunities in the sector to learn, to contribute. And I still consider myself a student and I'm still learning vast ecosystem that is offering us challenges as well as opportunities. That's a great approach. So let's start with design tension. Most people see climate change policies and mental health as mutually exclusive. How do you see them as connected? I think this is a wonderful perspective to start with. And my friends are also asking me this since forever that why you went into psychology was the connection between energy, climate or mental health. So I would say they'll be deeply connected. And mental health touches all spectrum of what's happening in the climate world. So there are varied ways in which you can understand these intersections. One would be when we see the impacts of extreme weather events on the survivors and they report to have mental health concerns in the long term. As per research, suicide is one of the most common indicators which is reported. They are links to anxiety disorder. and post-traumatic stress disorder as well. But enough research has not been still done into this area, but you're better see, it gets to mental health concerns remain. The other aspect would be when we think of redesigning these systems. So all of us have come across some of the other systemic failures and they're very much connected to what's changing across the world in terms of the conversations on energy or system ability or our understanding of systems in general. So we are now thinking about redesigning these systems and mental well-being plays an important part how we are designing these systems for climate policy or moderns in general. So I'll give you an example from the garment supply chain. So there's an organization called Self-Employed Women's Association. Last year have been the years of extreme heat. These garment supply chain workers, most of those have been women. were facing the adversities due to high heat and losing the workers. So in order to compensate them in terms of this loss in workers or the effects of heat or their health, SEWA came up with a model where it was compensating these workers with a certain amount of money when the temperature crossed a certain threshold. So this ensured that these women are making for what's being lost due to this change in weather. in terms of their wages and they can also use that money to invest in their health. So this is how we are thinking now when we are designing our projects or initiatives or policies and we are making the mental well-being, the health or the mental health an important component of designing these policies. And last I would speak, we all have heard that climate anxiety or eco-anxiety So it's, it's, it's pervading all across the professionals who are working in this arena and also among the journal populace because now the impacts of climate change much more tangible and we all are feeling it in one way or another. So whether we term it or not, the climate anxiety is ⁓ something that we are facing. Yeah, very rapidly now. So these are some of the ways in which the climate policy is connected to mental health or mental well-being. But the most important consideration for me is to make it an intricate component of designing the systems or whichever way we are taking this vision forward. So is this the philosophy behind silly optra? When I started with the silly Oprah, it was during the COVID times and I was seeing around me a lot of mental health concerns that people were reporting and Oprah was created to offer a safe space to these people to express their concerns and find support. But climate change was not in my mind at that point of time. But now when I look back, I do see that yeah, it is even the world of climate change is... is deeply related to mental health and why not to, I think the same space I would like to offer to the people in this space as well. And AI is being designed to optimize energy grades, load balancing, demand forecasting, smart metering, but optimization often means efficiency for the system, not necessarily humans within it. So from your work on RE100 and CFE, you have seen the tensions play out where what is optimal for the grid is not optimal for the communities. Yeah, sure. First of all, like when you mentioned about RE100 or the carbon free initiative, let you know that this corporate procurement of renewable energy is one of the strong drivers of uptake of renewable energy now world. And there could be varied ways in which the decisions are playing out between the corporates and the communities, one of which could be that When these these corporates are claiming the 100 % renewable procurement, the projects are being set up in a different geography while their operations are happening in different local settings. the communities often report that while your projects are being set up in Ireland, why are you not getting the benefits of these projects? So the corporates are still able to make the claims for remittables, but the communities feel that they are not getting the benefits of these projects. So this is a very prominent example of how this distinction is playing out. I need to extend it further while you say that AI can help you to optimize the grids in varied ways. So certainly it can help you to figure out the locations. There are transmission lines. are being set or where the renewable assets should be installed. But often this dynamic do not consider what are the rights of the community, what the biodiversity. So these are again the variables which are not included in this optimization process and these conflicts to play out. And on this note, I'll also say that while I was working on these initiatives, there's a program called Responsible Renewable Energy Initiative. They're trying to balance this distinction between the developers, procurers and the communities. If we talk about the policy gap, you have worked on policy recommendations like Delhi as global city by 2047. So when policymakers talk about AI, in terms of urban infrastructure and sustainability. What's the biggest blind spots that you have observed and what are they not asking that should be asked? I think this is one of your questions that left me wondering for long because I have been following the AI conversation as they are happening in India. And I would say we are still at the very start of what's being pending out. So the evolution of AI is definitely exponential, but the ways in which it is changing our realities, is still to be seen or observed. Definitely the experts in the organizations are talking about how AI will make someone a more productive worker, how it will make our processes, products, or the way we are doing things more efficient. But I think one of the important things that that we missing in this conversation is what is the vision? What do we want? I think there is a lack of clarity on this aspect. For instance, if I say about cities, do I want my cities to be healthier? Do I want my cities to care about dignified labor? Or do I want my cities to be based on health or mental well-being? So I think these are some of the questions which are missing. and are important because if we are not asking these questions, if we are not integrating them in our innovation or the governance structure, then AI will optimize the wrong things for us. First of all, we have to decide what do we want? And I think once we have clarity on that aspect, AI can definitely help us with the efficiency and optimization for a lot of things. Switching from urban context to the rural context, India is racing towards 500 gigawatts of capacity by 2030. And AI is pitched as the accelerant, massive informal energy economies, rural communities with inconsistent grid access and force that could be easily displaced. So how do you think a just transition can be made as AI comes into the picture? I don't know because the developments are ongoing and are happening and there have been projections from various exports and organizations that this could be the possible displacement in the jobs. But there is very much lack of credibility and consensus on what might be happening and how this is going to pan out. So I think as of now, it is important that we make this conversation urgent as this technological change is happening. and deep diving into what might be changing in this transition process, not leaving it to chance and planning out if there is a certain displacement of jobs from a sector in which sectors are the new opportunities needed for we can support the people in capacity building and navigate into these other jobs which are existing or taking shape. So I think we have to play a very proactive part in balancing out this transition. And yes, all those who are on this were at least important positions of decision-making. I think they have a very crucial role to play in this transition. Your medium piece argues about keeping people at the heart of energy transition. Most AI systems are designed around data and infrastructure, not human behaviors, not trust, not adoption. So if you were advising AI teams who are working on solutions for climate change for Indian households, what are the priorities you would recommend to them? Okay. Okay. So the one thing that I suggest to them is to not build in isolation, but build in co-creation with the people. think whatever product or service or the system that you are building for the Indian households, if you are taking their personal experience in how we are designing it, their feedback. So I think they would also be having a sense of ownership in how things are getting designed for them. And this could be very important aspect in building trust. And next I would say is to keep things very transparent from the very start, be it the data, be it your intention on why you are designing this product or the ethical consideration. So I think the transparent systems are the best systems and the systems are speed for themselves. So if you're keeping all aspects transparent, I think This would be the key to building the trust with the baby. I think we have covered Arash first of all, thank you for this excellent conversation and bringing this such an important topic to the community. And I think we discussed on a lot of parts, how energy sustainability and AI are intersecting because our conversation revolves a lot around what's happening in the climate. and in the mental health and young people are inspired to work in the sector. I would want to say to them that yes, there's a strong sense of purpose in the sector, but there are a lot of opportunities, joy also in the process. So as far as we are able to balance things out, we can definitely reach towards the goals as are needed. Thank you so much. Beautiful insight. Thank you so much Akash for having me. It was a lovely conversation and I loved talking to you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Pleasure is mine.