1
00:00:02,383 --> 00:00:05,828
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
2
00:00:05,848 --> 00:00:09,312
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
3
00:00:09,413 --> 00:00:13,218
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
4
00:00:18,362 --> 00:00:21,465
Joining me today is Dr. Steve Yacovelli, owner and
5
00:00:21,505 --> 00:00:25,189
principal of Top Dog Learning Group, LLC. Dr. Yacovelli
6
00:00:25,229 --> 00:00:29,233
specializes in fostering inclusive leadership and creating impactful, diverse
7
00:00:29,333 --> 00:00:32,717
organizational cultures. He uses his extensive experience in
8
00:00:32,737 --> 00:00:36,240
leadership development, empowering leaders to drive authentic
9
00:00:47,748 --> 00:00:51,049
Yes, this is one of my favorite conferences of the whole year, so I'm glad
10
00:00:51,069 --> 00:00:54,850
that we were able to do this live. Your background, your
11
00:00:54,890 --> 00:00:58,851
vibe, your LinkedIn presence, it screams
12
00:00:59,031 --> 00:01:02,953
everything that I wanted to learn about you and the work you're doing,
13
00:01:03,373 --> 00:01:07,574
and very well done. Thank you, thank you. You showed up very authentically,
14
00:01:07,614 --> 00:01:10,936
which is important. Thank you, thank you, that's the plan. Speaking of
15
00:01:10,996 --> 00:01:14,400
authentic, right, I want to focus on allyship and how
16
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,625
does authentic allyship really work compared
17
00:01:21,830 --> 00:01:25,214
Yes, the rainbow washing every June. The pink washing
18
00:01:25,254 --> 00:01:28,857
every October. Yeah, it's, you know, what's sad
19
00:01:29,537 --> 00:01:32,960
and interesting in these weird and wonderful times is, and
20
00:01:32,980 --> 00:01:36,562
I'll just speak on behalf of the queer community being the gay leadership dude, but not
21
00:01:36,622 --> 00:01:39,845
speaking on behalf of every queer person in the entire planet, but what
22
00:01:40,045 --> 00:01:43,607
I hear in my circles, as well as with my client partners and DEI
23
00:01:43,647 --> 00:01:46,970
in general, is that this shakeup of diversity, equity,
24
00:01:46,990 --> 00:01:50,312
inclusion, and what's happening is kind of showing the true colors, no rainbow
25
00:01:50,332 --> 00:01:55,115
pun intended, of companies who really are true allies. What
26
00:01:55,215 --> 00:01:58,536
I find fascinating is the companies who really back down
27
00:01:58,817 --> 00:02:02,038
when there was a little bit of pressure under their fire
28
00:02:02,058 --> 00:02:05,219
under their feet, it's going to come back and bite
29
00:02:05,259 --> 00:02:08,700
them. And when you start to see the numbers of Gen Xers
30
00:02:08,780 --> 00:02:12,041
coming into the workplace, when you start to see, I mean, you know, I'm in my,
31
00:02:12,261 --> 00:02:15,443
my, I'm a Gen Xer and I'm in JZ here, excuse me. But
32
00:02:15,523 --> 00:02:19,744
as a Gen Xer, I mean, I haven't touched Chick-fil-A in decades. And
33
00:02:19,784 --> 00:02:22,985
that's how the queer community is. Loyalty is a big deal. We look for
34
00:02:23,005 --> 00:02:26,646
the folks not just who show up at a pride parade with their rainbow swag
35
00:02:26,666 --> 00:02:30,347
going on, but who in August are also sending
36
00:02:30,487 --> 00:02:33,707
amicus briefs to the Supreme Court on behalf of us for whatever issue is going
37
00:02:33,847 --> 00:02:37,088
on. And that's going to stick. And so I think true allyship are
38
00:02:37,128 --> 00:02:40,309
those who don't back down, who are the companies who say, you know what,
39
00:02:40,449 --> 00:02:43,810
our corporate value is, say, inclusivity. We're going to stand by
40
00:02:43,850 --> 00:02:47,351
it. Folks who are doing that right now, they're gonna succeed in
41
00:02:47,431 --> 00:02:50,672
the next three, five years. And those who aren't, we are going
42
00:02:51,533 --> 00:02:54,694
How have you addressed or talked to organizations? Because I've
43
00:02:54,714 --> 00:02:58,716
heard this before in my career. Something as simple as, hey,
44
00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:01,937
we can't afford, I'm using air quotes, we can't afford to
45
00:03:02,017 --> 00:03:05,198
create gender neutral bathrooms. Some
46
00:03:05,258 --> 00:03:08,439
of that stuff that seems like a no duh, we
47
00:03:08,479 --> 00:03:11,601
put in all these business reasons why we can't do it.
48
00:03:13,609 --> 00:03:17,333
So there are different ways you can show your inclusivity as a business, big
49
00:03:17,373 --> 00:03:21,097
and small. Sure. Okay. That might be a legit excuse. We don't have the physical infrastructure.
50
00:03:21,117 --> 00:03:24,660
Okay. But what else? Um, you know, I was just walking past the,
51
00:03:24,921 --> 00:03:28,224
um, the, the, um, you know, they have portable bathrooms, they
52
00:03:28,244 --> 00:03:31,467
have different things you can do. I mean, there's other ways, but you can do something small as,
53
00:03:31,788 --> 00:03:34,891
Hey, here's a corporate policy that allows you to put your pronouns in
54
00:03:34,931 --> 00:03:38,414
your email signature. I've had client partners who they weren't allowed to
55
00:03:38,454 --> 00:03:42,538
do that. And I'm like, why? How much does that cost? And
56
00:03:42,638 --> 00:03:46,282
it's an option thing. You can make it standard or not. But you can show
57
00:03:46,422 --> 00:03:49,625
inclusivity and allyship in big ways. And yeah, and
58
00:03:49,645 --> 00:03:52,708
then there's other ways. Let's figure out how we can use our employee network and
59
00:03:55,891 --> 00:03:59,553
What do you think are some of the most significant barriers that HR faces
60
00:03:59,753 --> 00:04:03,455
as they're trying to foster these more inclusive environments?
61
00:04:03,715 --> 00:04:07,016
I think it starts at the top. A lot of my direct
62
00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:10,218
client partners are HR professionals, executives, and what they
63
00:04:10,258 --> 00:04:13,519
tell me is they're like, I want to do this, but I'm getting pushback from
64
00:04:13,559 --> 00:04:16,761
those at the C-suite. where I have senior executives who
65
00:04:16,841 --> 00:04:20,642
just don't, quote unquote, I'm using air quotes now, buy into how
66
00:04:20,702 --> 00:04:24,584
inclusivity impacts our bottom line, even though the data is ridiculous. And
67
00:04:24,604 --> 00:04:28,165
so I think that's the biggest barrier, is that lack of seen
68
00:04:28,425 --> 00:04:31,786
and perceived executive sponsorship. And I actually approach
69
00:04:32,187 --> 00:04:36,168
inclusivity as a change management project. I was an IBMer for a while. working
70
00:04:36,188 --> 00:04:39,451
in change management. And so we say, just do the exact same
71
00:04:39,491 --> 00:04:42,993
process that you would do for a new software implementation. Yes,
72
00:04:43,053 --> 00:04:46,336
it's humans, but all the same steps that you do, including having
73
00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:50,259
visible executive sponsorship, that's what makes or breaks a change project. You're
74
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,083
Yeah, for sure. Have you run into scenarios where
75
00:04:56,983 --> 00:05:01,629
leadership has a hard time divorcing their personal
76
00:05:01,689 --> 00:05:05,370
beliefs into their corporate
77
00:05:06,291 --> 00:05:09,572
And that's sadly common. And you see that just
78
00:05:09,772 --> 00:05:12,973
at various levels, people who are maybe longer tenure, you might
79
00:05:12,993 --> 00:05:16,794
have a different philosophy than people who are newer in their professional journey. What
80
00:05:16,894 --> 00:05:20,096
I tell every single client partner of mine is, what
81
00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:23,638
are your corporate values? And I have yet to find an organization that
82
00:05:23,718 --> 00:05:27,140
doesn't have something that points toward inclusivity, celebrate
83
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,103
differences, whatever. And I say use those as a sword and a shield. Because
84
00:05:31,424 --> 00:05:34,726
that's the agreed upon way that every employee from
85
00:05:34,846 --> 00:05:38,149
top to bottom in the org chart are supposed to do the work. And
86
00:05:38,209 --> 00:05:41,291
if a senior executive, if a junior executive, if a
87
00:05:41,331 --> 00:05:44,794
whoever isn't going along and playing by those values, then
88
00:05:44,814 --> 00:05:47,937
that's an opportunity to have a conversation with them. Because they're not playing by the state of
89
00:05:49,818 --> 00:05:53,541
Yeah. All right. I want to ask you kind of a complex question,
90
00:05:57,283 --> 00:06:00,446
But I think it's important. You know, as you
91
00:06:00,466 --> 00:06:03,868
look at the gamut of the queer community, right, it's not one
92
00:06:04,008 --> 00:06:07,130
thing. It's a diverse community in
93
00:06:08,611 --> 00:06:12,672
And I've run into scenarios where people
94
00:06:12,692 --> 00:06:15,973
who are not part of the community will say things like, well, I don't know how
95
00:06:16,013 --> 00:06:20,775
to address a transgender person, or I don't know how to address somebody
96
00:06:20,895 --> 00:06:24,296
who is heterosexual, but they dress like
97
00:06:24,336 --> 00:06:27,777
a woman because it makes them feel good, and that's how they want to show up. How
98
00:06:27,817 --> 00:06:31,078
do we, as HR people, start to change the narrative that
99
00:06:31,098 --> 00:06:34,759
it's not like you need permission, right? Like, they're not
100
00:06:34,799 --> 00:06:38,860
requesting your permission to be themselves. It gets complicated.
101
00:06:39,221 --> 00:06:42,802
Yeah, and I think we as HR professionals and
102
00:06:43,022 --> 00:06:46,283
as workplaces have the opportunity to shape the culture. And so we
103
00:06:46,303 --> 00:06:50,704
can set those parameters on what is expected and not expected within
104
00:06:50,904 --> 00:06:54,145
the confines of our workplace culture. And so I think it's being
105
00:06:54,165 --> 00:06:57,586
very crystal clear. One of the things that I've been saying to
106
00:06:57,626 --> 00:07:00,668
a lot of folks is, Let's take it
107
00:07:00,728 --> 00:07:03,970
back to the bare bones. What is your feedback environment like in
108
00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:07,813
your workplace? And they're like, what? That's a standard leadership
109
00:07:08,253 --> 00:07:11,616
101 thing. You should, as an organization, have some sort of state of way. It could
110
00:07:11,636 --> 00:07:14,838
be the EECC method. There's so many models out there that are just simple. But
111
00:07:14,878 --> 00:07:19,101
there are ways that we say, hey, when we provide feedback in a respectful way at this organization, here's
112
00:07:19,161 --> 00:07:22,583
what we do. And then you use that on top of whatever scenario fits about
113
00:07:22,603 --> 00:07:26,164
you. Hey, you mispronounced me five times. Then
114
00:07:26,184 --> 00:07:29,585
providing that effective feedback in a respectful way, that's the norm. But that's also
115
00:07:29,645 --> 00:07:33,266
holding each other accountable, i.e. back to the value system. And
116
00:07:33,286 --> 00:07:37,027
I think it's also empowering all folks to
117
00:07:37,047 --> 00:07:40,349
not go down the path of engaging in
118
00:07:40,389 --> 00:07:43,672
silent collusion. If you're familiar with that term, it's when someone
119
00:07:43,692 --> 00:07:46,855
says that disparaging remark, and I use an example in
120
00:07:46,875 --> 00:07:50,378
my keynote that I'm doing later, and it's true, this executive said,
121
00:07:50,939 --> 00:07:55,143
just as we're about to start this meeting, well, you know all women drive, and your
122
00:07:55,163 --> 00:07:58,346
look on your face is exactly what the 39 of us in the room except
123
00:07:58,366 --> 00:08:01,828
for this executive did. But we all looked and no one said a word. And
124
00:08:02,028 --> 00:08:05,349
at that moment, we were engaging in silent collusion. And I think we can be better
125
00:08:05,449 --> 00:08:08,571
at workplaces as HR people to encourage people to not do
126
00:08:08,611 --> 00:08:11,852
that. Because when you don't engage in silent collusion, you create an
127
00:08:11,892 --> 00:08:15,073
inclusive environment where people can just say, hey, I'm sorry, what did you mean by that
128
00:08:15,113 --> 00:08:18,335
statement? And it's not, what did you mean by that statement? Then shields up,
129
00:08:18,355 --> 00:08:21,716
people aren't going to be inclusive or open to the feedback. And
130
00:08:21,736 --> 00:08:25,002
I think we can create those types of models and examples in
131
00:08:25,062 --> 00:08:28,247
ourselves and with our senior executives that model the way to hold
132
00:08:28,287 --> 00:08:31,412
each other accountable in that respectful way of what we
133
00:08:32,677 --> 00:08:36,358
I think that also can be true, just how you live your everyday life.
134
00:08:37,398 --> 00:08:41,259
I was at a conference much earlier this year and I was talking to this wonderful CEO
135
00:08:41,299 --> 00:08:44,380
and he was talking about this woman that I should have on the
136
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,520
podcast. And he's like, she's an amazing woman founder. And I
137
00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:51,081
stopped him right there. I said, Hey, listen, I was like, she's not a woman founder.
138
00:08:54,322 --> 00:08:57,705
Oh my gosh, you're so right. I knew I could say that. I
139
00:08:57,745 --> 00:09:01,328
didn't know this person very well. But it's something very simple
140
00:09:01,368 --> 00:09:04,650
as that. We don't necessarily think how
141
00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:07,853
much language impacts things and the
142
00:09:09,094 --> 00:09:12,236
I was creating a class for a client not too long ago, and it
143
00:09:12,256 --> 00:09:15,359
was on inclusive language. We had the pronoun thing in there, which of
144
00:09:15,379 --> 00:09:18,901
course I knew, and some other things. But as I started researching certain
145
00:09:18,941 --> 00:09:22,643
phrases, that we say in in very very common language
146
00:09:23,203 --> 00:09:26,765
and and the history of those and where they started I was like oh my gosh and
147
00:09:26,805 --> 00:09:29,906
I find myself correcting I was correcting an HR executive yesterday and
148
00:09:30,486 --> 00:09:33,627
they're like and I said I'm sorry I don't mean to be like the HR police which I
149
00:09:33,647 --> 00:09:36,828
know we are always labeled as that all the time but I'm like I just wanted to share that
150
00:09:36,868 --> 00:09:40,290
with you and she's like I had no idea said I didn't either until maybe
151
00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:44,792
like six months ago as this white cisgender gay dude But
152
00:09:44,812 --> 00:09:48,414
it's just like, that's the fun thing. We're all in this together to learn. And
153
00:09:48,454 --> 00:09:51,796
like with your example, you maybe didn't know that person, but it sounds like
154
00:09:51,816 --> 00:09:55,118
you automatically had some semblance of trust. And that's what
155
00:09:55,138 --> 00:09:58,260
we can all do. What can we do to build that rapport and that trust so that
156
00:09:58,301 --> 00:10:01,643
when those hiccups happen, and they will happen to all of us, that
157
00:10:01,663 --> 00:10:04,885
we can say, hey, let me course correct you. Oh, thank you for that. Now I know. Let's move on.
158
00:10:05,225 --> 00:10:08,629
Yeah. Jason Sudeikis shared yesterday a little bit about Ted
159
00:10:08,669 --> 00:10:12,353
Lasso and that approach of like curiosity and
160
00:10:12,393 --> 00:10:15,977
like almost a little bit of dumbness to it, for lack of a better word.
161
00:10:16,878 --> 00:10:20,342
Yeah. Like, oh, oh, that word had it like. If
162
00:10:20,382 --> 00:10:23,924
we can bring more of that curiosity and just
163
00:10:26,785 --> 00:10:30,047
I saw a meme or a cartoon or whatever, and it was this one
164
00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:33,229
person was talking to this person in a wheelchair, and they're like,
165
00:10:33,309 --> 00:10:36,511
how should I refer to you as a disabled? And they had
166
00:10:36,531 --> 00:10:39,672
all these words, and he's like, just Bob. And it
167
00:10:39,692 --> 00:10:43,236
really got to the root of it, didn't it? All my trans friends,
168
00:10:43,477 --> 00:10:47,701
they're just like, just use the name that I use. I'm like, yes,
169
00:10:47,942 --> 00:10:51,165
yes, let's do that. How hard is that? It costs nothing. And
170
00:10:51,205 --> 00:10:54,469
the respect can go super far. And the last thing I'll say is,
171
00:10:55,410 --> 00:10:58,894
I always remind people that diversity, everybody is diverse.
172
00:10:59,374 --> 00:11:02,698
And I even heard that yesterday, someone had made that comment, and I was like, no, every
173
00:11:02,738 --> 00:11:06,301
single human in your workplace is diverse. Even the whitest gender dudes, the
174
00:11:06,361 --> 00:11:09,444
left-handed people, the parents. I mean, I use the five layers of
175
00:11:09,464 --> 00:11:13,148
diversity by Garden Schwartz and Rowe as a way to explain to people, especially
176
00:11:13,188 --> 00:11:17,072
my people who aren't the quote unquote traditional diversity, in
177
00:11:17,112 --> 00:11:20,494
my inclusive leadership programs, and it really helps them feel included and seen
178
00:11:20,814 --> 00:11:24,716
that, oh my gosh, because I'm in sales versus someone in accounting,
179
00:11:25,016 --> 00:11:28,318
that can lend me looking at the world just a little bit differently. Yes,
180
00:11:28,498 --> 00:11:31,560
yes it does. And of course, there's bigger and smaller ways that we look at the
181
00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:34,762
world differently, like you being gay, I impact the world differently and
182
00:11:34,802 --> 00:11:38,043
look at the world than someone who's not, but that's okay. They all contribute to
183
00:11:38,103 --> 00:11:41,385
how we interact and experience, and if we honor those
184
00:11:43,345 --> 00:11:46,588
Yeah. How have you coached leaders in
185
00:11:46,628 --> 00:11:50,052
your partnership with them that come to you and say, okay,
186
00:11:50,452 --> 00:11:54,536
I'm all in on allyship, I'm all in on inclusivity, but
187
00:11:54,637 --> 00:11:58,260
I need the data to show that these programs are working? Yeah.
188
00:11:59,061 --> 00:12:02,865
And that's a fair question. And I mean, especially as an external vendor, they
189
00:12:02,985 --> 00:12:06,128
often, and I actually want this because it justifies them buying my
190
00:12:06,168 --> 00:12:09,552
services. But I also find that organizations can
191
00:12:09,572 --> 00:12:12,875
get lazy with the measurement strategies when it comes to corporate
192
00:12:12,895 --> 00:12:16,058
learning, when it comes to inclusivity, when it comes to employee engagement. Yeah, you
193
00:12:16,098 --> 00:12:20,103
might get that one data point here and there, but I think smart organizations are
194
00:12:20,143 --> 00:12:24,027
looking at a holistic dashboard of the direct and indirect contributions
195
00:12:24,147 --> 00:12:27,450
to moving the needle for, say, an inclusive leadership program or
196
00:12:27,470 --> 00:12:31,032
whatever. And I think it's, if we're not asking
197
00:12:31,072 --> 00:12:34,753
this, do you feel that you belong to our employee base, we're
198
00:12:34,773 --> 00:12:37,934
missing a massive metric that we can go back and show that, oh,
199
00:12:39,074 --> 00:12:42,975
98% of our people feel that they belong, fan-flippin-tastic. Or 12% feel that
200
00:12:42,995 --> 00:12:46,136
they belong, ooh, that's an opportunity. So I think it
201
00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:49,917
starts there, but it also takes money and resources. And
202
00:12:49,937 --> 00:12:53,078
I think some organizations just wanna look at, say, butts in
203
00:12:55,939 --> 00:12:59,562
Yeah. How have you, I like the metric around belonging. I
204
00:12:59,602 --> 00:13:02,884
think what's interesting as I've thought about and
205
00:13:02,944 --> 00:13:06,306
researched what Gen Z's priorities are, it's
206
00:13:06,846 --> 00:13:10,129
fascinating. I think it's going to completely revolutionize work
207
00:13:10,149 --> 00:13:13,311
in so many ways that we don't quite know yet because they
208
00:13:13,351 --> 00:13:16,693
don't want to have a BFF at work. They have their BFF outside of
209
00:13:16,733 --> 00:13:19,875
work. A work is a job. Yeah. And,
210
00:13:20,116 --> 00:13:23,178
and for, I'm also Gen X for, for me, it's a
211
00:13:26,319 --> 00:13:29,760
This is my life. This is my part of my identity. And it's not
212
00:13:29,860 --> 00:13:33,402
the same. Yes. How does that change some of those concepts around
213
00:13:36,603 --> 00:13:39,864
I love that you ask this question because I'm a data nerd as well. And
214
00:13:40,444 --> 00:13:43,785
I've been reading all these different studies that came out in the last year that
215
00:13:43,845 --> 00:13:47,886
really tell an interesting story and a different story than what's in the headlines. And
216
00:13:48,166 --> 00:13:51,687
case in point, I love the Gen Zers. They are going to flip our
217
00:13:51,727 --> 00:13:54,889
workplace on its head in a great way. 83% of
218
00:13:54,909 --> 00:13:58,271
them, according to one study, expect their company to do diversity,
219
00:13:58,311 --> 00:14:02,253
equity, inclusion work. And they won't go to
220
00:14:02,313 --> 00:14:05,495
that place. So right there alone, that one data point, if you're listing as
221
00:14:05,535 --> 00:14:09,478
an HR talent management person or whatever, you're
222
00:14:09,498 --> 00:14:12,800
not going to get the best talent if you're not having these types of things. And
223
00:14:12,820 --> 00:14:16,362
then looking at it through the rainbow lens, the queerness, I
224
00:14:16,382 --> 00:14:21,645
believe it's 28% of Gen Zers identify as queer. adults.
225
00:14:22,005 --> 00:14:25,248
So that's, that's higher than the 9% on the overall, which is, this is
226
00:14:25,288 --> 00:14:28,550
Gallup that just came out a couple months ago. And so those two data
227
00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:32,052
points alone, it's like, oh my gosh, if you're backing out of your pride events
228
00:14:32,593 --> 00:14:35,895
and you're kicking off, you're kicking out your DEI efforts, like you're,
229
00:14:36,015 --> 00:14:39,437
you're not doing yourself a service, especially in three years
230
00:14:39,457 --> 00:14:42,899
from now, what 2030 is when Gen Z will, will be a
231
00:14:42,979 --> 00:14:46,041
third of the workforce. It's like you have a third of the
232
00:14:46,062 --> 00:14:49,204
workforce that expects you, most of them expect you to do DEI and a
233
00:14:49,244 --> 00:14:52,586
third of them identify as queer. And that's just one
234
00:14:52,726 --> 00:14:55,909
facet of diversity that's out there. So, yeah, companies need to be paying
235
00:14:55,949 --> 00:14:59,472
attention to Gen Z. And if they're not, they are going to miss the boat very quickly.
236
00:14:59,713 --> 00:15:03,536
Yeah. Well, and I like that you said earlier that the concept around,
237
00:15:03,556 --> 00:15:07,220
you know, rainbow fine June or
238
00:15:08,981 --> 00:15:12,745
Or pink wash in October. Because if your organization is
239
00:15:12,785 --> 00:15:16,246
doing it right, those shouldn't be the only moments
240
00:15:16,286 --> 00:15:20,047
that you're talking about different inclusion initiatives. One
241
00:15:20,087 --> 00:15:23,388
of the things that we've done over the years that I've really loved is that as,
242
00:15:23,808 --> 00:15:27,328
you know, there's these different celebratory months nationally, we kind
243
00:15:27,368 --> 00:15:30,649
of lean into it from a different perspective. Meaning we'll bring in a speaker, we'll
244
00:15:30,709 --> 00:15:35,010
offer food that's like aligned with that cultural expectation
245
00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:38,891
or those types of things. And we'll have real conversations about
246
00:15:38,931 --> 00:15:42,312
what that's like, and we'll help to teach about language and
247
00:15:42,332 --> 00:15:45,734
some of those things. And those are super low lift things,
248
00:15:47,695 --> 00:15:51,677
Yeah, you know, it's one of the things I do a lot of keynotes, both in person and virtual. And
249
00:15:52,497 --> 00:15:55,759
yes, as the gay leadership dude, June is very busy. Typically, it
250
00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:59,141
was a little quieter this year, I got to admit, because people's budgets
251
00:15:59,181 --> 00:16:02,644
were a little weird. My three signature talks that I do are
252
00:16:02,684 --> 00:16:05,967
meant to be universal. So I'll have the LGBT employee resource group
253
00:16:05,987 --> 00:16:09,471
say, hey, we want to talk about that being a consciously inclusive leader program for
254
00:16:09,551 --> 00:16:12,974
our queer folks. I said, yes, and invite every other ERG. Because
255
00:16:12,994 --> 00:16:16,197
the strategies to be an inclusive queer leader are the same and to be as
256
00:16:16,257 --> 00:16:19,981
inclusive female leader, black leader, insert all of the differences here.
257
00:16:20,501 --> 00:16:23,863
And then we also couple that with, I really try to push them to do things
258
00:16:23,983 --> 00:16:27,205
in an intersectionality effort. So I had one group that they have
259
00:16:27,485 --> 00:16:31,027
a very new employee resource group that's young professionals, like fantastic way
260
00:16:31,047 --> 00:16:34,329
to focus on the Gen Zers. And they said, well, you know,
261
00:16:34,429 --> 00:16:37,892
but we want to partner with them as the LGBT employee resource group, because obviously
262
00:16:37,932 --> 00:16:41,634
we have young queer people in that group. And I said, fantastic, do
263
00:16:41,694 --> 00:16:44,916
a joint effort between your two ERGs. and I'll come in and talk about the
264
00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:48,177
six leadership competencies you should focus on. That's a universal thing. And
265
00:16:48,217 --> 00:16:51,618
it's really been fun to talk through these things like, for Black History
266
00:16:51,658 --> 00:16:54,840
Month, who are your queer black people that you want to have a chat about? And
267
00:16:54,860 --> 00:16:58,241
just really making it that, showing less of the, let's
268
00:16:58,441 --> 00:17:01,562
silo it in one month and say, oh, you know what? By the
269
00:17:01,602 --> 00:17:04,824
way, October is also LGBTQ plus history month. Let's have
270
00:17:04,844 --> 00:17:08,225
a chat there. And make the different ways
271
00:17:08,405 --> 00:17:12,007
of, I guess, allyship exposure be really
272
00:17:14,448 --> 00:17:18,290
And that intersectionality piece, I think that's
273
00:17:18,511 --> 00:17:22,433
really where some of the inclusion conversations should
274
00:17:22,593 --> 00:17:26,355
focus on. Like you said, we've had these siloed
275
00:17:27,096 --> 00:17:30,758
initiatives. We're not siloed people, right? We're super complex.
276
00:17:32,185 --> 00:17:35,408
That's why I love that five layers of diversity model because it kind of shows that.
277
00:17:35,988 --> 00:17:39,411
And it goes everything into personality as the core of what makes every
278
00:17:39,451 --> 00:17:42,654
single human in the space unique. And that's true.
279
00:17:42,674 --> 00:17:45,737
I mean, you know, twins, they're not the same. So, you know, I
280
00:17:45,757 --> 00:17:49,240
think you're right. We are so complex and we are so intersectionality and,
281
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,623
you know, you might be a parent. Well, you are a parent. I am not a parent. So that's a
282
00:17:52,743 --> 00:17:56,026
different experience that we have. I'm a canine parent. So that's a thing for
283
00:17:56,066 --> 00:17:59,248
me. And so, you know, left-handed people, I always give this
284
00:17:59,308 --> 00:18:02,590
example. I mean, gosh, in the 80s, I felt so
285
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:05,891
bad for our left handed friends who were like creating their their left
286
00:18:05,931 --> 00:18:09,513
handedness on that right handed desk. But that was a way that it impacted their
287
00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:12,714
life. Yeah. And if we think about it through that lens and know
288
00:18:12,734 --> 00:18:16,076
that we are all going through these differences together, I think we'll we'll finally
289
00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:20,920
Yeah, I love that. As we kind of wrap up our conversation, I'm
290
00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:25,044
curious how you've coached HR leaders to handle
291
00:18:25,084 --> 00:18:28,388
backlash or resistance internally. And I hate that
292
00:18:28,428 --> 00:18:32,071
we have to sit in this space, but sometimes we do. Sometimes we
293
00:18:32,191 --> 00:18:35,475
ourselves are not there yet. How have
294
00:18:37,296 --> 00:18:40,839
I know I'm repeating myself, the values. I
295
00:18:40,879 --> 00:18:44,301
go back to the mission and vision, but most likely the corporate values. Because at
296
00:18:44,321 --> 00:18:47,484
the end of the day in the workplace, that's what we're supposed to do. Matter of
297
00:18:47,504 --> 00:18:50,626
fact, I'm a little rabble rouser on social media, I
298
00:18:50,646 --> 00:18:53,988
will say. Last summer, when it was the first of the Robbie
299
00:18:54,008 --> 00:18:57,271
Starbucks, who was harassing different companies, like the
300
00:18:57,311 --> 00:19:00,713
Lowe's and such, and they started pulling back, I started going
301
00:19:00,753 --> 00:19:03,855
to their websites, taking screenshots of their corporate values, and I
302
00:19:03,895 --> 00:19:07,677
would redline SharpieMarker, of course, virtually, where
303
00:19:07,757 --> 00:19:11,458
like, oh look, you have a corporate value of inclusivity, yet you just did this. And
304
00:19:11,478 --> 00:19:14,639
I was posting it, and sadly, I got backlogged because there was
305
00:19:14,659 --> 00:19:18,120
too many of them. But it really made me sad that here's these companies
306
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,281
who verbally say, or say in
307
00:19:21,341 --> 00:19:24,861
public, we value this, but then doing the opposite. And
308
00:19:24,881 --> 00:19:28,122
that's disheartening for me as an external person. I can only imagine as
309
00:19:28,162 --> 00:19:31,803
an HR professional inside what that looks like. I have a lot of friends who
310
00:19:31,823 --> 00:19:35,204
were really upset with Target, and I have a lot of friends who actually lost their jobs from
311
00:19:35,244 --> 00:19:38,388
Target. And I think we can learn from those experiences. I
312
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:42,334
think at the end of the day, as an HR professional, you have
313
00:19:42,354 --> 00:19:45,779
your own personal values too. And if they align with not
314
00:19:45,859 --> 00:19:49,444
just what's stated values on your corporate website, but
315
00:19:49,484 --> 00:19:52,689
what's really lived, then that's great. If they're not,
316
00:19:52,729 --> 00:19:56,112
then that's kind of some soul-searching. But it's also having that hard
317
00:19:56,172 --> 00:19:59,475
conversation with the senior executives to say, look, we're
318
00:19:59,595 --> 00:20:02,738
living these values this way, but we're stating them this way. That's a
319
00:20:02,778 --> 00:20:05,961
disconnect, and people know it. And sending that alarm, and if
320
00:20:06,181 --> 00:20:09,544
nothing happens to it, or there's lack of movement, then maybe we have to try
321
00:20:10,745 --> 00:20:14,189
Yeah, and just like everything else, you know, as a fellow Gen
322
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:18,234
Xer, we didn't have social media tracking all of our behavior
323
00:20:18,295 --> 00:20:21,839
and great choices that we had as teenagers. But that's not
324
00:20:21,859 --> 00:20:24,943
the case now. Even in our organizations, it's not the case. So, you
325
00:20:25,263 --> 00:20:28,546
know, you might think something is proprietary or,
326
00:20:28,846 --> 00:20:31,968
you know, but I mean, you just hop on TikTok and look
327
00:20:31,988 --> 00:20:35,669
at all the people who've recorded their terminations, you know, like very, very
328
00:20:35,749 --> 00:20:38,910
public. So it is a different environment we have
329
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:42,471
to think of. As we wrap up our conversation and you look ahead
330
00:20:42,531 --> 00:20:46,372
to the future, right, how do you anticipate inclusion, specifically
331
00:20:49,953 --> 00:20:53,054
Yeah, well, we talked about the amount of Gen Zers, and I
332
00:20:53,074 --> 00:20:56,456
think that's going to be a massive push. For organizations to really take
333
00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:59,779
a notice and say, huh, how are we looking at
334
00:20:59,859 --> 00:21:03,242
our queer and also ally team members and
335
00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:07,145
figuring out how we're supporting them? I think as things
336
00:21:07,225 --> 00:21:10,808
progress in our society, who knows what direction it's going to be, I
337
00:21:10,828 --> 00:21:13,911
think it's companies having an opportunity to step up to
338
00:21:13,931 --> 00:21:17,033
the plate. As we saw with marriage equality and say, you know
339
00:21:17,073 --> 00:21:20,616
what, this is the right path we need to do regardless of how
340
00:21:20,696 --> 00:21:24,121
it might hit our bottom line. Now I know that's very sensitive. And I mean,
341
00:21:24,241 --> 00:21:27,469
I have lost business this year because companies are saying, you know what, we
342
00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:30,958
need to pause that inclusive leadership program, Steve, that
343
00:21:30,978 --> 00:21:34,457
you bring to us. And I hear that and I get that, but so
344
00:21:34,517 --> 00:21:38,100
does all of your employees. And I think we need to be really mindful
345
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,522
as HR professionals what messages we're sending by
346
00:21:41,722 --> 00:21:45,144
taking action or being silent. And I think that
347
00:21:45,384 --> 00:21:48,466
what we do now is going to impact how we're perceived in
348
00:21:48,986 --> 00:21:52,188
Yeah, for sure. Well, Steve, such a great conversation. Thank you. Thank
349
00:21:55,177 --> 00:21:58,481
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
350
00:21:58,781 --> 00:22:02,084
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
00:00:02,383 --> 00:00:05,828
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
2
00:00:05,848 --> 00:00:09,312
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
3
00:00:09,413 --> 00:00:13,218
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
4
00:00:18,362 --> 00:00:21,465
Joining me today is Dr. Steve Yacovelli, owner and
5
00:00:21,505 --> 00:00:25,189
principal of Top Dog Learning Group, LLC. Dr. Yacovelli
6
00:00:25,229 --> 00:00:29,233
specializes in fostering inclusive leadership and creating impactful, diverse
7
00:00:29,333 --> 00:00:32,717
organizational cultures. He uses his extensive experience in
8
00:00:32,737 --> 00:00:36,240
leadership development, empowering leaders to drive authentic
9
00:00:47,748 --> 00:00:51,049
Yes, this is one of my favorite conferences of the whole year, so I'm glad
10
00:00:51,069 --> 00:00:54,850
that we were able to do this live. Your background, your
11
00:00:54,890 --> 00:00:58,851
vibe, your LinkedIn presence, it screams
12
00:00:59,031 --> 00:01:02,953
everything that I wanted to learn about you and the work you're doing,
13
00:01:03,373 --> 00:01:07,574
and very well done. Thank you, thank you. You showed up very authentically,
14
00:01:07,614 --> 00:01:10,936
which is important. Thank you, thank you, that's the plan. Speaking of
15
00:01:10,996 --> 00:01:14,400
authentic, right, I want to focus on allyship and how
16
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,625
does authentic allyship really work compared
17
00:01:21,830 --> 00:01:25,214
Yes, the rainbow washing every June. The pink washing
18
00:01:25,254 --> 00:01:28,857
every October. Yeah, it's, you know, what's sad
19
00:01:29,537 --> 00:01:32,960
and interesting in these weird and wonderful times is, and
20
00:01:32,980 --> 00:01:36,562
I'll just speak on behalf of the queer community being the gay leadership dude, but not
21
00:01:36,622 --> 00:01:39,845
speaking on behalf of every queer person in the entire planet, but what
22
00:01:40,045 --> 00:01:43,607
I hear in my circles, as well as with my client partners and DEI
23
00:01:43,647 --> 00:01:46,970
in general, is that this shakeup of diversity, equity,
24
00:01:46,990 --> 00:01:50,312
inclusion, and what's happening is kind of showing the true colors, no rainbow
25
00:01:50,332 --> 00:01:55,115
pun intended, of companies who really are true allies. What
26
00:01:55,215 --> 00:01:58,536
I find fascinating is the companies who really back down
27
00:01:58,817 --> 00:02:02,038
when there was a little bit of pressure under their fire
28
00:02:02,058 --> 00:02:05,219
under their feet, it's going to come back and bite
29
00:02:05,259 --> 00:02:08,700
them. And when you start to see the numbers of Gen Xers
30
00:02:08,780 --> 00:02:12,041
coming into the workplace, when you start to see, I mean, you know, I'm in my,
31
00:02:12,261 --> 00:02:15,443
my, I'm a Gen Xer and I'm in JZ here, excuse me. But
32
00:02:15,523 --> 00:02:19,744
as a Gen Xer, I mean, I haven't touched Chick-fil-A in decades. And
33
00:02:19,784 --> 00:02:22,985
that's how the queer community is. Loyalty is a big deal. We look for
34
00:02:23,005 --> 00:02:26,646
the folks not just who show up at a pride parade with their rainbow swag
35
00:02:26,666 --> 00:02:30,347
going on, but who in August are also sending
36
00:02:30,487 --> 00:02:33,707
amicus briefs to the Supreme Court on behalf of us for whatever issue is going
37
00:02:33,847 --> 00:02:37,088
on. And that's going to stick. And so I think true allyship are
38
00:02:37,128 --> 00:02:40,309
those who don't back down, who are the companies who say, you know what,
39
00:02:40,449 --> 00:02:43,810
our corporate value is, say, inclusivity. We're going to stand by
40
00:02:43,850 --> 00:02:47,351
it. Folks who are doing that right now, they're gonna succeed in
41
00:02:47,431 --> 00:02:50,672
the next three, five years. And those who aren't, we are going
42
00:02:51,533 --> 00:02:54,694
How have you addressed or talked to organizations? Because I've
43
00:02:54,714 --> 00:02:58,716
heard this before in my career. Something as simple as, hey,
44
00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:01,937
we can't afford, I'm using air quotes, we can't afford to
45
00:03:02,017 --> 00:03:05,198
create gender neutral bathrooms. Some
46
00:03:05,258 --> 00:03:08,439
of that stuff that seems like a no duh, we
47
00:03:08,479 --> 00:03:11,601
put in all these business reasons why we can't do it.
48
00:03:13,609 --> 00:03:17,333
So there are different ways you can show your inclusivity as a business, big
49
00:03:17,373 --> 00:03:21,097
and small. Sure. Okay. That might be a legit excuse. We don't have the physical infrastructure.
50
00:03:21,117 --> 00:03:24,660
Okay. But what else? Um, you know, I was just walking past the,
51
00:03:24,921 --> 00:03:28,224
um, the, the, um, you know, they have portable bathrooms, they
52
00:03:28,244 --> 00:03:31,467
have different things you can do. I mean, there's other ways, but you can do something small as,
53
00:03:31,788 --> 00:03:34,891
Hey, here's a corporate policy that allows you to put your pronouns in
54
00:03:34,931 --> 00:03:38,414
your email signature. I've had client partners who they weren't allowed to
55
00:03:38,454 --> 00:03:42,538
do that. And I'm like, why? How much does that cost? And
56
00:03:42,638 --> 00:03:46,282
it's an option thing. You can make it standard or not. But you can show
57
00:03:46,422 --> 00:03:49,625
inclusivity and allyship in big ways. And yeah, and
58
00:03:49,645 --> 00:03:52,708
then there's other ways. Let's figure out how we can use our employee network and
59
00:03:55,891 --> 00:03:59,553
What do you think are some of the most significant barriers that HR faces
60
00:03:59,753 --> 00:04:03,455
as they're trying to foster these more inclusive environments?
61
00:04:03,715 --> 00:04:07,016
I think it starts at the top. A lot of my direct
62
00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:10,218
client partners are HR professionals, executives, and what they
63
00:04:10,258 --> 00:04:13,519
tell me is they're like, I want to do this, but I'm getting pushback from
64
00:04:13,559 --> 00:04:16,761
those at the C-suite. where I have senior executives who
65
00:04:16,841 --> 00:04:20,642
just don't, quote unquote, I'm using air quotes now, buy into how
66
00:04:20,702 --> 00:04:24,584
inclusivity impacts our bottom line, even though the data is ridiculous. And
67
00:04:24,604 --> 00:04:28,165
so I think that's the biggest barrier, is that lack of seen
68
00:04:28,425 --> 00:04:31,786
and perceived executive sponsorship. And I actually approach
69
00:04:32,187 --> 00:04:36,168
inclusivity as a change management project. I was an IBMer for a while. working
70
00:04:36,188 --> 00:04:39,451
in change management. And so we say, just do the exact same
71
00:04:39,491 --> 00:04:42,993
process that you would do for a new software implementation. Yes,
72
00:04:43,053 --> 00:04:46,336
it's humans, but all the same steps that you do, including having
73
00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:50,259
visible executive sponsorship, that's what makes or breaks a change project. You're
74
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,083
Yeah, for sure. Have you run into scenarios where
75
00:04:56,983 --> 00:05:01,629
leadership has a hard time divorcing their personal
76
00:05:01,689 --> 00:05:05,370
beliefs into their corporate
77
00:05:06,291 --> 00:05:09,572
And that's sadly common. And you see that just
78
00:05:09,772 --> 00:05:12,973
at various levels, people who are maybe longer tenure, you might
79
00:05:12,993 --> 00:05:16,794
have a different philosophy than people who are newer in their professional journey. What
80
00:05:16,894 --> 00:05:20,096
I tell every single client partner of mine is, what
81
00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:23,638
are your corporate values? And I have yet to find an organization that
82
00:05:23,718 --> 00:05:27,140
doesn't have something that points toward inclusivity, celebrate
83
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,103
differences, whatever. And I say use those as a sword and a shield. Because
84
00:05:31,424 --> 00:05:34,726
that's the agreed upon way that every employee from
85
00:05:34,846 --> 00:05:38,149
top to bottom in the org chart are supposed to do the work. And
86
00:05:38,209 --> 00:05:41,291
if a senior executive, if a junior executive, if a
87
00:05:41,331 --> 00:05:44,794
whoever isn't going along and playing by those values, then
88
00:05:44,814 --> 00:05:47,937
that's an opportunity to have a conversation with them. Because they're not playing by the state of
89
00:05:49,818 --> 00:05:53,541
Yeah. All right. I want to ask you kind of a complex question,
90
00:05:57,283 --> 00:06:00,446
But I think it's important. You know, as you
91
00:06:00,466 --> 00:06:03,868
look at the gamut of the queer community, right, it's not one
92
00:06:04,008 --> 00:06:07,130
thing. It's a diverse community in
93
00:06:08,611 --> 00:06:12,672
And I've run into scenarios where people
94
00:06:12,692 --> 00:06:15,973
who are not part of the community will say things like, well, I don't know how
95
00:06:16,013 --> 00:06:20,775
to address a transgender person, or I don't know how to address somebody
96
00:06:20,895 --> 00:06:24,296
who is heterosexual, but they dress like
97
00:06:24,336 --> 00:06:27,777
a woman because it makes them feel good, and that's how they want to show up. How
98
00:06:27,817 --> 00:06:31,078
do we, as HR people, start to change the narrative that
99
00:06:31,098 --> 00:06:34,759
it's not like you need permission, right? Like, they're not
100
00:06:34,799 --> 00:06:38,860
requesting your permission to be themselves. It gets complicated.
101
00:06:39,221 --> 00:06:42,802
Yeah, and I think we as HR professionals and
102
00:06:43,022 --> 00:06:46,283
as workplaces have the opportunity to shape the culture. And so we
103
00:06:46,303 --> 00:06:50,704
can set those parameters on what is expected and not expected within
104
00:06:50,904 --> 00:06:54,145
the confines of our workplace culture. And so I think it's being
105
00:06:54,165 --> 00:06:57,586
very crystal clear. One of the things that I've been saying to
106
00:06:57,626 --> 00:07:00,668
a lot of folks is, Let's take it
107
00:07:00,728 --> 00:07:03,970
back to the bare bones. What is your feedback environment like in
108
00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:07,813
your workplace? And they're like, what? That's a standard leadership
109
00:07:08,253 --> 00:07:11,616
101 thing. You should, as an organization, have some sort of state of way. It could
110
00:07:11,636 --> 00:07:14,838
be the EECC method. There's so many models out there that are just simple. But
111
00:07:14,878 --> 00:07:19,101
there are ways that we say, hey, when we provide feedback in a respectful way at this organization, here's
112
00:07:19,161 --> 00:07:22,583
what we do. And then you use that on top of whatever scenario fits about
113
00:07:22,603 --> 00:07:26,164
you. Hey, you mispronounced me five times. Then
114
00:07:26,184 --> 00:07:29,585
providing that effective feedback in a respectful way, that's the norm. But that's also
115
00:07:29,645 --> 00:07:33,266
holding each other accountable, i.e. back to the value system. And
116
00:07:33,286 --> 00:07:37,027
I think it's also empowering all folks to
117
00:07:37,047 --> 00:07:40,349
not go down the path of engaging in
118
00:07:40,389 --> 00:07:43,672
silent collusion. If you're familiar with that term, it's when someone
119
00:07:43,692 --> 00:07:46,855
says that disparaging remark, and I use an example in
120
00:07:46,875 --> 00:07:50,378
my keynote that I'm doing later, and it's true, this executive said,
121
00:07:50,939 --> 00:07:55,143
just as we're about to start this meeting, well, you know all women drive, and your
122
00:07:55,163 --> 00:07:58,346
look on your face is exactly what the 39 of us in the room except
123
00:07:58,366 --> 00:08:01,828
for this executive did. But we all looked and no one said a word. And
124
00:08:02,028 --> 00:08:05,349
at that moment, we were engaging in silent collusion. And I think we can be better
125
00:08:05,449 --> 00:08:08,571
at workplaces as HR people to encourage people to not do
126
00:08:08,611 --> 00:08:11,852
that. Because when you don't engage in silent collusion, you create an
127
00:08:11,892 --> 00:08:15,073
inclusive environment where people can just say, hey, I'm sorry, what did you mean by that
128
00:08:15,113 --> 00:08:18,335
statement? And it's not, what did you mean by that statement? Then shields up,
129
00:08:18,355 --> 00:08:21,716
people aren't going to be inclusive or open to the feedback. And
130
00:08:21,736 --> 00:08:25,002
I think we can create those types of models and examples in
131
00:08:25,062 --> 00:08:28,247
ourselves and with our senior executives that model the way to hold
132
00:08:28,287 --> 00:08:31,412
each other accountable in that respectful way of what we
133
00:08:32,677 --> 00:08:36,358
I think that also can be true, just how you live your everyday life.
134
00:08:37,398 --> 00:08:41,259
I was at a conference much earlier this year and I was talking to this wonderful CEO
135
00:08:41,299 --> 00:08:44,380
and he was talking about this woman that I should have on the
136
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,520
podcast. And he's like, she's an amazing woman founder. And I
137
00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:51,081
stopped him right there. I said, Hey, listen, I was like, she's not a woman founder.
138
00:08:54,322 --> 00:08:57,705
Oh my gosh, you're so right. I knew I could say that. I
139
00:08:57,745 --> 00:09:01,328
didn't know this person very well. But it's something very simple
140
00:09:01,368 --> 00:09:04,650
as that. We don't necessarily think how
141
00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:07,853
much language impacts things and the
142
00:09:09,094 --> 00:09:12,236
I was creating a class for a client not too long ago, and it
143
00:09:12,256 --> 00:09:15,359
was on inclusive language. We had the pronoun thing in there, which of
144
00:09:15,379 --> 00:09:18,901
course I knew, and some other things. But as I started researching certain
145
00:09:18,941 --> 00:09:22,643
phrases, that we say in in very very common language
146
00:09:23,203 --> 00:09:26,765
and and the history of those and where they started I was like oh my gosh and
147
00:09:26,805 --> 00:09:29,906
I find myself correcting I was correcting an HR executive yesterday and
148
00:09:30,486 --> 00:09:33,627
they're like and I said I'm sorry I don't mean to be like the HR police which I
149
00:09:33,647 --> 00:09:36,828
know we are always labeled as that all the time but I'm like I just wanted to share that
150
00:09:36,868 --> 00:09:40,290
with you and she's like I had no idea said I didn't either until maybe
151
00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:44,792
like six months ago as this white cisgender gay dude But
152
00:09:44,812 --> 00:09:48,414
it's just like, that's the fun thing. We're all in this together to learn. And
153
00:09:48,454 --> 00:09:51,796
like with your example, you maybe didn't know that person, but it sounds like
154
00:09:51,816 --> 00:09:55,118
you automatically had some semblance of trust. And that's what
155
00:09:55,138 --> 00:09:58,260
we can all do. What can we do to build that rapport and that trust so that
156
00:09:58,301 --> 00:10:01,643
when those hiccups happen, and they will happen to all of us, that
157
00:10:01,663 --> 00:10:04,885
we can say, hey, let me course correct you. Oh, thank you for that. Now I know. Let's move on.
158
00:10:05,225 --> 00:10:08,629
Yeah. Jason Sudeikis shared yesterday a little bit about Ted
159
00:10:08,669 --> 00:10:12,353
Lasso and that approach of like curiosity and
160
00:10:12,393 --> 00:10:15,977
like almost a little bit of dumbness to it, for lack of a better word.
161
00:10:16,878 --> 00:10:20,342
Yeah. Like, oh, oh, that word had it like. If
162
00:10:20,382 --> 00:10:23,924
we can bring more of that curiosity and just
163
00:10:26,785 --> 00:10:30,047
I saw a meme or a cartoon or whatever, and it was this one
164
00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:33,229
person was talking to this person in a wheelchair, and they're like,
165
00:10:33,309 --> 00:10:36,511
how should I refer to you as a disabled? And they had
166
00:10:36,531 --> 00:10:39,672
all these words, and he's like, just Bob. And it
167
00:10:39,692 --> 00:10:43,236
really got to the root of it, didn't it? All my trans friends,
168
00:10:43,477 --> 00:10:47,701
they're just like, just use the name that I use. I'm like, yes,
169
00:10:47,942 --> 00:10:51,165
yes, let's do that. How hard is that? It costs nothing. And
170
00:10:51,205 --> 00:10:54,469
the respect can go super far. And the last thing I'll say is,
171
00:10:55,410 --> 00:10:58,894
I always remind people that diversity, everybody is diverse.
172
00:10:59,374 --> 00:11:02,698
And I even heard that yesterday, someone had made that comment, and I was like, no, every
173
00:11:02,738 --> 00:11:06,301
single human in your workplace is diverse. Even the whitest gender dudes, the
174
00:11:06,361 --> 00:11:09,444
left-handed people, the parents. I mean, I use the five layers of
175
00:11:09,464 --> 00:11:13,148
diversity by Garden Schwartz and Rowe as a way to explain to people, especially
176
00:11:13,188 --> 00:11:17,072
my people who aren't the quote unquote traditional diversity, in
177
00:11:17,112 --> 00:11:20,494
my inclusive leadership programs, and it really helps them feel included and seen
178
00:11:20,814 --> 00:11:24,716
that, oh my gosh, because I'm in sales versus someone in accounting,
179
00:11:25,016 --> 00:11:28,318
that can lend me looking at the world just a little bit differently. Yes,
180
00:11:28,498 --> 00:11:31,560
yes it does. And of course, there's bigger and smaller ways that we look at the
181
00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:34,762
world differently, like you being gay, I impact the world differently and
182
00:11:34,802 --> 00:11:38,043
look at the world than someone who's not, but that's okay. They all contribute to
183
00:11:38,103 --> 00:11:41,385
how we interact and experience, and if we honor those
184
00:11:43,345 --> 00:11:46,588
Yeah. How have you coached leaders in
185
00:11:46,628 --> 00:11:50,052
your partnership with them that come to you and say, okay,
186
00:11:50,452 --> 00:11:54,536
I'm all in on allyship, I'm all in on inclusivity, but
187
00:11:54,637 --> 00:11:58,260
I need the data to show that these programs are working? Yeah.
188
00:11:59,061 --> 00:12:02,865
And that's a fair question. And I mean, especially as an external vendor, they
189
00:12:02,985 --> 00:12:06,128
often, and I actually want this because it justifies them buying my
190
00:12:06,168 --> 00:12:09,552
services. But I also find that organizations can
191
00:12:09,572 --> 00:12:12,875
get lazy with the measurement strategies when it comes to corporate
192
00:12:12,895 --> 00:12:16,058
learning, when it comes to inclusivity, when it comes to employee engagement. Yeah, you
193
00:12:16,098 --> 00:12:20,103
might get that one data point here and there, but I think smart organizations are
194
00:12:20,143 --> 00:12:24,027
looking at a holistic dashboard of the direct and indirect contributions
195
00:12:24,147 --> 00:12:27,450
to moving the needle for, say, an inclusive leadership program or
196
00:12:27,470 --> 00:12:31,032
whatever. And I think it's, if we're not asking
197
00:12:31,072 --> 00:12:34,753
this, do you feel that you belong to our employee base, we're
198
00:12:34,773 --> 00:12:37,934
missing a massive metric that we can go back and show that, oh,
199
00:12:39,074 --> 00:12:42,975
98% of our people feel that they belong, fan-flippin-tastic. Or 12% feel that
200
00:12:42,995 --> 00:12:46,136
they belong, ooh, that's an opportunity. So I think it
201
00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:49,917
starts there, but it also takes money and resources. And
202
00:12:49,937 --> 00:12:53,078
I think some organizations just wanna look at, say, butts in
203
00:12:55,939 --> 00:12:59,562
Yeah. How have you, I like the metric around belonging. I
204
00:12:59,602 --> 00:13:02,884
think what's interesting as I've thought about and
205
00:13:02,944 --> 00:13:06,306
researched what Gen Z's priorities are, it's
206
00:13:06,846 --> 00:13:10,129
fascinating. I think it's going to completely revolutionize work
207
00:13:10,149 --> 00:13:13,311
in so many ways that we don't quite know yet because they
208
00:13:13,351 --> 00:13:16,693
don't want to have a BFF at work. They have their BFF outside of
209
00:13:16,733 --> 00:13:19,875
work. A work is a job. Yeah. And,
210
00:13:20,116 --> 00:13:23,178
and for, I'm also Gen X for, for me, it's a
211
00:13:26,319 --> 00:13:29,760
This is my life. This is my part of my identity. And it's not
212
00:13:29,860 --> 00:13:33,402
the same. Yes. How does that change some of those concepts around
213
00:13:36,603 --> 00:13:39,864
I love that you ask this question because I'm a data nerd as well. And
214
00:13:40,444 --> 00:13:43,785
I've been reading all these different studies that came out in the last year that
215
00:13:43,845 --> 00:13:47,886
really tell an interesting story and a different story than what's in the headlines. And
216
00:13:48,166 --> 00:13:51,687
case in point, I love the Gen Zers. They are going to flip our
217
00:13:51,727 --> 00:13:54,889
workplace on its head in a great way. 83% of
218
00:13:54,909 --> 00:13:58,271
them, according to one study, expect their company to do diversity,
219
00:13:58,311 --> 00:14:02,253
equity, inclusion work. And they won't go to
220
00:14:02,313 --> 00:14:05,495
that place. So right there alone, that one data point, if you're listing as
221
00:14:05,535 --> 00:14:09,478
an HR talent management person or whatever, you're
222
00:14:09,498 --> 00:14:12,800
not going to get the best talent if you're not having these types of things. And
223
00:14:12,820 --> 00:14:16,362
then looking at it through the rainbow lens, the queerness, I
224
00:14:16,382 --> 00:14:21,645
believe it's 28% of Gen Zers identify as queer. adults.
225
00:14:22,005 --> 00:14:25,248
So that's, that's higher than the 9% on the overall, which is, this is
226
00:14:25,288 --> 00:14:28,550
Gallup that just came out a couple months ago. And so those two data
227
00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:32,052
points alone, it's like, oh my gosh, if you're backing out of your pride events
228
00:14:32,593 --> 00:14:35,895
and you're kicking off, you're kicking out your DEI efforts, like you're,
229
00:14:36,015 --> 00:14:39,437
you're not doing yourself a service, especially in three years
230
00:14:39,457 --> 00:14:42,899
from now, what 2030 is when Gen Z will, will be a
231
00:14:42,979 --> 00:14:46,041
third of the workforce. It's like you have a third of the
232
00:14:46,062 --> 00:14:49,204
workforce that expects you, most of them expect you to do DEI and a
233
00:14:49,244 --> 00:14:52,586
third of them identify as queer. And that's just one
234
00:14:52,726 --> 00:14:55,909
facet of diversity that's out there. So, yeah, companies need to be paying
235
00:14:55,949 --> 00:14:59,472
attention to Gen Z. And if they're not, they are going to miss the boat very quickly.
236
00:14:59,713 --> 00:15:03,536
Yeah. Well, and I like that you said earlier that the concept around,
237
00:15:03,556 --> 00:15:07,220
you know, rainbow fine June or
238
00:15:08,981 --> 00:15:12,745
Or pink wash in October. Because if your organization is
239
00:15:12,785 --> 00:15:16,246
doing it right, those shouldn't be the only moments
240
00:15:16,286 --> 00:15:20,047
that you're talking about different inclusion initiatives. One
241
00:15:20,087 --> 00:15:23,388
of the things that we've done over the years that I've really loved is that as,
242
00:15:23,808 --> 00:15:27,328
you know, there's these different celebratory months nationally, we kind
243
00:15:27,368 --> 00:15:30,649
of lean into it from a different perspective. Meaning we'll bring in a speaker, we'll
244
00:15:30,709 --> 00:15:35,010
offer food that's like aligned with that cultural expectation
245
00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:38,891
or those types of things. And we'll have real conversations about
246
00:15:38,931 --> 00:15:42,312
what that's like, and we'll help to teach about language and
247
00:15:42,332 --> 00:15:45,734
some of those things. And those are super low lift things,
248
00:15:47,695 --> 00:15:51,677
Yeah, you know, it's one of the things I do a lot of keynotes, both in person and virtual. And
249
00:15:52,497 --> 00:15:55,759
yes, as the gay leadership dude, June is very busy. Typically, it
250
00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:59,141
was a little quieter this year, I got to admit, because people's budgets
251
00:15:59,181 --> 00:16:02,644
were a little weird. My three signature talks that I do are
252
00:16:02,684 --> 00:16:05,967
meant to be universal. So I'll have the LGBT employee resource group
253
00:16:05,987 --> 00:16:09,471
say, hey, we want to talk about that being a consciously inclusive leader program for
254
00:16:09,551 --> 00:16:12,974
our queer folks. I said, yes, and invite every other ERG. Because
255
00:16:12,994 --> 00:16:16,197
the strategies to be an inclusive queer leader are the same and to be as
256
00:16:16,257 --> 00:16:19,981
inclusive female leader, black leader, insert all of the differences here.
257
00:16:20,501 --> 00:16:23,863
And then we also couple that with, I really try to push them to do things
258
00:16:23,983 --> 00:16:27,205
in an intersectionality effort. So I had one group that they have
259
00:16:27,485 --> 00:16:31,027
a very new employee resource group that's young professionals, like fantastic way
260
00:16:31,047 --> 00:16:34,329
to focus on the Gen Zers. And they said, well, you know,
261
00:16:34,429 --> 00:16:37,892
but we want to partner with them as the LGBT employee resource group, because obviously
262
00:16:37,932 --> 00:16:41,634
we have young queer people in that group. And I said, fantastic, do
263
00:16:41,694 --> 00:16:44,916
a joint effort between your two ERGs. and I'll come in and talk about the
264
00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:48,177
six leadership competencies you should focus on. That's a universal thing. And
265
00:16:48,217 --> 00:16:51,618
it's really been fun to talk through these things like, for Black History
266
00:16:51,658 --> 00:16:54,840
Month, who are your queer black people that you want to have a chat about? And
267
00:16:54,860 --> 00:16:58,241
just really making it that, showing less of the, let's
268
00:16:58,441 --> 00:17:01,562
silo it in one month and say, oh, you know what? By the
269
00:17:01,602 --> 00:17:04,824
way, October is also LGBTQ plus history month. Let's have
270
00:17:04,844 --> 00:17:08,225
a chat there. And make the different ways
271
00:17:08,405 --> 00:17:12,007
of, I guess, allyship exposure be really
272
00:17:14,448 --> 00:17:18,290
And that intersectionality piece, I think that's
273
00:17:18,511 --> 00:17:22,433
really where some of the inclusion conversations should
274
00:17:22,593 --> 00:17:26,355
focus on. Like you said, we've had these siloed
275
00:17:27,096 --> 00:17:30,758
initiatives. We're not siloed people, right? We're super complex.
276
00:17:32,185 --> 00:17:35,408
That's why I love that five layers of diversity model because it kind of shows that.
277
00:17:35,988 --> 00:17:39,411
And it goes everything into personality as the core of what makes every
278
00:17:39,451 --> 00:17:42,654
single human in the space unique. And that's true.
279
00:17:42,674 --> 00:17:45,737
I mean, you know, twins, they're not the same. So, you know, I
280
00:17:45,757 --> 00:17:49,240
think you're right. We are so complex and we are so intersectionality and,
281
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,623
you know, you might be a parent. Well, you are a parent. I am not a parent. So that's a
282
00:17:52,743 --> 00:17:56,026
different experience that we have. I'm a canine parent. So that's a thing for
283
00:17:56,066 --> 00:17:59,248
me. And so, you know, left-handed people, I always give this
284
00:17:59,308 --> 00:18:02,590
example. I mean, gosh, in the 80s, I felt so
285
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:05,891
bad for our left handed friends who were like creating their their left
286
00:18:05,931 --> 00:18:09,513
handedness on that right handed desk. But that was a way that it impacted their
287
00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:12,714
life. Yeah. And if we think about it through that lens and know
288
00:18:12,734 --> 00:18:16,076
that we are all going through these differences together, I think we'll we'll finally
289
00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:20,920
Yeah, I love that. As we kind of wrap up our conversation, I'm
290
00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:25,044
curious how you've coached HR leaders to handle
291
00:18:25,084 --> 00:18:28,388
backlash or resistance internally. And I hate that
292
00:18:28,428 --> 00:18:32,071
we have to sit in this space, but sometimes we do. Sometimes we
293
00:18:32,191 --> 00:18:35,475
ourselves are not there yet. How have
294
00:18:37,296 --> 00:18:40,839
I know I'm repeating myself, the values. I
295
00:18:40,879 --> 00:18:44,301
go back to the mission and vision, but most likely the corporate values. Because at
296
00:18:44,321 --> 00:18:47,484
the end of the day in the workplace, that's what we're supposed to do. Matter of
297
00:18:47,504 --> 00:18:50,626
fact, I'm a little rabble rouser on social media, I
298
00:18:50,646 --> 00:18:53,988
will say. Last summer, when it was the first of the Robbie
299
00:18:54,008 --> 00:18:57,271
Starbucks, who was harassing different companies, like the
300
00:18:57,311 --> 00:19:00,713
Lowe's and such, and they started pulling back, I started going
301
00:19:00,753 --> 00:19:03,855
to their websites, taking screenshots of their corporate values, and I
302
00:19:03,895 --> 00:19:07,677
would redline SharpieMarker, of course, virtually, where
303
00:19:07,757 --> 00:19:11,458
like, oh look, you have a corporate value of inclusivity, yet you just did this. And
304
00:19:11,478 --> 00:19:14,639
I was posting it, and sadly, I got backlogged because there was
305
00:19:14,659 --> 00:19:18,120
too many of them. But it really made me sad that here's these companies
306
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,281
who verbally say, or say in
307
00:19:21,341 --> 00:19:24,861
public, we value this, but then doing the opposite. And
308
00:19:24,881 --> 00:19:28,122
that's disheartening for me as an external person. I can only imagine as
309
00:19:28,162 --> 00:19:31,803
an HR professional inside what that looks like. I have a lot of friends who
310
00:19:31,823 --> 00:19:35,204
were really upset with Target, and I have a lot of friends who actually lost their jobs from
311
00:19:35,244 --> 00:19:38,388
Target. And I think we can learn from those experiences. I
312
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:42,334
think at the end of the day, as an HR professional, you have
313
00:19:42,354 --> 00:19:45,779
your own personal values too. And if they align with not
314
00:19:45,859 --> 00:19:49,444
just what's stated values on your corporate website, but
315
00:19:49,484 --> 00:19:52,689
what's really lived, then that's great. If they're not,
316
00:19:52,729 --> 00:19:56,112
then that's kind of some soul-searching. But it's also having that hard
317
00:19:56,172 --> 00:19:59,475
conversation with the senior executives to say, look, we're
318
00:19:59,595 --> 00:20:02,738
living these values this way, but we're stating them this way. That's a
319
00:20:02,778 --> 00:20:05,961
disconnect, and people know it. And sending that alarm, and if
320
00:20:06,181 --> 00:20:09,544
nothing happens to it, or there's lack of movement, then maybe we have to try
321
00:20:10,745 --> 00:20:14,189
Yeah, and just like everything else, you know, as a fellow Gen
322
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:18,234
Xer, we didn't have social media tracking all of our behavior
323
00:20:18,295 --> 00:20:21,839
and great choices that we had as teenagers. But that's not
324
00:20:21,859 --> 00:20:24,943
the case now. Even in our organizations, it's not the case. So, you
325
00:20:25,263 --> 00:20:28,546
know, you might think something is proprietary or,
326
00:20:28,846 --> 00:20:31,968
you know, but I mean, you just hop on TikTok and look
327
00:20:31,988 --> 00:20:35,669
at all the people who've recorded their terminations, you know, like very, very
328
00:20:35,749 --> 00:20:38,910
public. So it is a different environment we have
329
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:42,471
to think of. As we wrap up our conversation and you look ahead
330
00:20:42,531 --> 00:20:46,372
to the future, right, how do you anticipate inclusion, specifically
331
00:20:49,953 --> 00:20:53,054
Yeah, well, we talked about the amount of Gen Zers, and I
332
00:20:53,074 --> 00:20:56,456
think that's going to be a massive push. For organizations to really take
333
00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:59,779
a notice and say, huh, how are we looking at
334
00:20:59,859 --> 00:21:03,242
our queer and also ally team members and
335
00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:07,145
figuring out how we're supporting them? I think as things
336
00:21:07,225 --> 00:21:10,808
progress in our society, who knows what direction it's going to be, I
337
00:21:10,828 --> 00:21:13,911
think it's companies having an opportunity to step up to
338
00:21:13,931 --> 00:21:17,033
the plate. As we saw with marriage equality and say, you know
339
00:21:17,073 --> 00:21:20,616
what, this is the right path we need to do regardless of how
340
00:21:20,696 --> 00:21:24,121
it might hit our bottom line. Now I know that's very sensitive. And I mean,
341
00:21:24,241 --> 00:21:27,469
I have lost business this year because companies are saying, you know what, we
342
00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:30,958
need to pause that inclusive leadership program, Steve, that
343
00:21:30,978 --> 00:21:34,457
you bring to us. And I hear that and I get that, but so
344
00:21:34,517 --> 00:21:38,100
does all of your employees. And I think we need to be really mindful
345
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,522
as HR professionals what messages we're sending by
346
00:21:41,722 --> 00:21:45,144
taking action or being silent. And I think that
347
00:21:45,384 --> 00:21:48,466
what we do now is going to impact how we're perceived in
348
00:21:48,986 --> 00:21:52,188
Yeah, for sure. Well, Steve, such a great conversation. Thank you. Thank
349
00:21:55,177 --> 00:21:58,481
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
350
00:21:58,781 --> 00:22:02,084
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
