William Joyce Part 1: How a British Patriot Became a Nazi Traitor

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:07.519
What happens when someone who thinks themselves a loyal patriot turns out to be the worst kind of traitor?
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:12.480
The story we're telling today is the answer to that question.
00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:28.239
It's the story of William Joyce, better known to history as Lord Hohor, a devoted Hitler fanboy who worked for the Third Reich during the Second World War, broadcasting pro-Nazi propaganda into the ears of the British people.
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:39.840
A loathsome creature who reminds me of certain other drifting hypocrites who today are working against Britain's interest despite claiming to love their country.
00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:44.000
William Joyce is this week's History's Devil.
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:08.480
Hello folks, and welcome to History's Devils, a podcast journey through the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, and shithels.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:18.480
We're talking Lord Ho-Haw, aka William Joyce, infamous Nazi propagandist, and joining me to pick this guy apart and understand the impetus for his treachery.
00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:24.079
I have with me, fresh offenduring the sordid tale of Donald Trump and Vince McMahon.
00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:30.319
Which, if anyone's wondering what the hell I'm talking about, check those episodes out in the History's Devil's Back catalog.
00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:31.519
Jane friend.
00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:33.599
Jane, how are you?
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:35.200
I'm very well, thank you.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.519
And thank you for having me back on the show.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:38.480
Great.
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:46.799
So we're we're we're doing a pivot here from again your last appearance talking about a wrestling promoter and a president.
00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:52.799
We are instead talking about a guy who who goes on an odyssey of fascist discovery.
00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:53.680
Let's call it that.
00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:54.239
Wow.
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:58.480
Which yeah, I'm I'm romanticizing our subject from the start.
00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:00.480
But he it is an odyssey.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:13.120
He starts as, you know, as we'll get to, he starts as a pretty sort of base level kind of uh conservative fellow and then and then gets increasingly radicalized to the point where he ends up serving Hitler during the Second World War.
00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.319
So let's get into who this guy was.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:22.560
William Joyce was born in 1906, not in Britain, but in Brooklyn, New York.
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.199
He was raised in Galway, Ireland.
00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.039
His father, Michael, was a Catholic.
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.199
His mother, Gertrude, was a Protestant.
00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:32.240
Somewhat unusual union in these times.
00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.439
More important than the religion, however, was the politics.
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:49.039
Politically, young William was raised to be a unionist, that is to say, an Irish person who believes very much in the validity and sanctity of the act of union that brought Ireland under British yoke back in 1801.
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:56.639
So this meant that Joyce was implicitly a believer in the dominance of Britain and its empire.
00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:06.960
He saw the empire as not only a force for good in the world, but a necessary force of order that could corral the likes of the shambolic Irish into line.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:08.400
That's his view of the Irish.
00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:12.400
Basically, he he he hates the Irish, but he lives amongst them, right?
00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:21.439
And this perception of Britain is an important one because for anyone listening who knows a little bit about Adolf Hitler, this is precisely how he thought of the British Empire.
00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:33.199
He thought of it as this racially superior worlds policeman that could, in theory, work alongside something like the Third Reich to keep a boot heel on the throat of the planet's lesser peoples.
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:39.120
And William Joyce from the younger stage sees the Irish as lesser peoples.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.960
And I'll just get this plug out of the way.
00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:57.919
For anyone who's interested in that union between the German or the Nazi way of thinking about the British Empire and people in Britain who thought similarly that they could have a partnership with the Third Reich and kind of rule the world.
00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.280
See episodes four and five of History's Devils.
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:06.240
Um check out those episodes about the British Peace Party and all that kind of stuff.
00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:11.520
Um and while you're there, like, subscribe, comment, and listen to all the other episodes in the back catalogue.
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:13.039
Leave reviews and star ratings.
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:14.879
Give us five star reviews.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:16.800
Only five stars allowed.
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:18.560
Only five stars allowed.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.120
We are doing, we are doing our goddamn best.
00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:22.560
But um, yeah.
00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:24.319
Cheap plug over.
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:25.759
Had to get that in.
00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.519
Let's get back to the business of William Joyce.
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:37.439
So unsurprisingly, given his political views, young Willie Wills is not a fan of Irish republicanism.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:47.680
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that his hatred of republicanism and loyalty to Britain become a core aspect of his personality and identity as a youth.
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.120
Okay, these are heavy political questions that are important to him from a very young age.
00:04:53.360 --> 00:05:05.279
This is not a kid who is just going to be happy kicking a football around with his mates, stealing coal, setting fire to things, whatever it is that kids in the early 20th century did for fun.
00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.279
You know, getting cholera.
00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:09.199
Licking lead.
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:11.519
Licking lead, yeah, no, none of that stuff.
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.160
None of the fun, wholesome pastimes of your.
00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:54.319
He hero-worshipped a lot of military figures like Nelson, etc.
00:06:54.959 --> 00:07:02.399
So he actually claims as a as a young lad to have joined a branch of the scouts in Galway.
00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:18.639
Now, the scouts had uh the scouting movement had arrived in in Ireland at this time, um, but we actually don't have any evidence to say there was a scouting uh group, a group, a branch of the scouts um in Galway at the time.
00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:20.639
What a strange thing to lie about.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.839
A lot of things to lie about, like yeah, you you would I mean you would join an organization, right?
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.079
And and you you would do it for real.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.560
Why would you lie about being in the scouts?
00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:43.759
But he gained a uniform somehow and the badges and the insignia, and he sort of learned some of the made his own yeah, it's such as his enthusiasm.
00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:49.360
Yeah, and and it's sort of this kid playing dress up, uh essentially.
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:58.959
Um and and and I think that you know the the the there was a later on in the 20s, there was a branch of the of the scouts there, but it just seems really odd.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:11.040
And it it does highlight actually, this is a good example of how he starts to sort of fantasize and this tendency to lie um about his belonging, I think.
00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:25.839
Um but I it it could I think there's a there's a couple of explanations for why he's potentially doing this, and it could be that he's just drawn to this idea of belonging to an organization and he and he likes putting on the uniform and he likes strutting around and feeling important.
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.680
That is highly possible.
00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.960
Um but I think another explanation could could be that we're you know we we are we are in the era of we are inculcating young people into the ideals of uh the British Empire.
00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:53.440
So uh the Scouting Movement was notoriously uh uh a sort of an imperialist organization to sort of militarize young young boys um and educate them.
00:08:53.679 --> 00:09:03.039
Um and in fact, uh its founder, Robert Baden-Powell, was um was in the military, and that was the whole purpose of the Scouting Movement.
00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:20.799
So um I I I think it the idea of it is imparting some of these core values that really spoke to Joyce, this idea of being disciplined and being loyal to your country, and he clearly loves that, and that is a thread we see through most of his life.
00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:22.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:29.759
Um, yeah, dressing up, arresting imperial decline by being part of this great movement.
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:42.399
Uh it it all makes sense, and it definitely makes sense when we know where he's going to end up by 1919, when he gets his chance to play soldier, and in the process indulge in this love of Britain and its empire.
00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:47.360
And that's because in January 1919, the Irish War of Independence breaks out.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:53.440
Now, just to explain the causes of that briefly, you have the Irish UK elections.
00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:59.039
So this is elections for Irish seats that are happening within Ireland's part of the UK, so it's a UK election.
00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:04.080
Sinn Fein, the Republican Party, gets a massive swather of the vote.
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:08.399
It's about 70%, I think, in uh this 1918 election.
00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.480
But its members refuse to take seats in Westminster to represent Ireland.
00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:30.480
Instead, they proclaim that they now have a mandate to form their own parliament, an Irish parliament, uh the Doyle Eren, and the this act of defiance of British rule sparks a war between Irish Republicans and the British in Ireland to cement this new political order that Sinn Fein has proclaimed.
00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:37.919
Now, Joyce is uh 13, 14 years old at this time, and he throws himself into this.
00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:39.440
He he loves it.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.600
He pledges to serve British interests against Irish Republican threats.
00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:49.200
There's some confusionslash lies about what he actually did during the war.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:51.200
Again, he's telling tall tales throughout.
00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:58.960
We know that he I don't know if he just spruced up the scout uniform or whatever, but he's wearing a hell of a lot of khaki at this time.
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:00.960
And and this is at school, right?
00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:08.159
So he's he's he's at school wearing khaki, and this is another another trend with him.
00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:14.960
He's gonna be the know-it-all who's explaining the politics of this to his his thicko classmates.
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:16.000
That's how he sees it.
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:20.000
So he's gonna go up to them and go, oh, this is why this is happening, and da-da-da, and all this.
00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.679
And unsurprisingly, he gets beaten up a lot for this.
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:30.320
Like he he gets they really don't like this guy coming up to them, particularly on one occasion.
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:38.159
He uh again, the story is that he he corners a fellow pupil who's wearing an Irish tricolor flag, so nationalist flag over his shoulders.
00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:51.759
Joyce, who never knows when to keep his trap shut, never knows when to just let sleeping dogs lie, goes up to the kid, sort of sticks a sticks a finger in his chest, and is like, you take that off now, you know, you traitor, etc.
00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:54.960
The boy goes tells him to jump in a ditch.
00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:03.919
Joyce then pulls out a pistol that he has stolen from a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and he threatens to shoot the kid.
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:06.559
Now, I'm not sure if this is a true story.
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:12.399
Again, it's it's one of these that gets lost in the sort of mythos of Joyce, but it's on brand for him.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:30.159
And I could believe it's true because he, despite being a youth, despite being a teenager, he does catch the eye of the British head of the Galway Army garrison, and he actually decides, you know, this this kid's clearly on our side against the Irish, let's employ him as a runner.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:44.799
So Joyce ends up working first as a runner for the army, but then he gets a real chance to play soldier when he attaches himself like a parasitical leech to the local unit of the black and tans.
00:12:45.120 --> 00:13:08.399
So to explain these people, for those who are not aware, the black and tans are these brutalized, most likely traumatized First World War veterans who are whipped out of the trenches, and then a few months later they are sent to Ireland and told, look, help out the Royal Irish Constavalry, help out the British Army there and suppress Irish descent.
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:15.039
These guys they're called the black and tans because the hastiness of their deployment means that they're wearing this stitched-together uniform.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:17.039
It's part police uniform, part khaki.
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:20.720
They are basically given free reign to do whatever the hell they want.
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:28.000
They engage in in arbitrary executions, plunder, uh, setting fire to stuff, raping women.
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:32.159
They do all kinds of horrific stuff that today we would call war crimes.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.159
And they they they are they are brutal bastards.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:37.840
And Joyce loves them.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:39.440
He thinks they're spiffing.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.519
Wonderful guys, you know, upholding the values of the empire, etc.
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:45.600
It's it's a red flag, isn't it?
00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:46.320
It's yeah.
00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:47.200
It's a red flag.
00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:52.080
If your if your child is enthusiastic about the Tans, look out.
00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:52.720
Look out.
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.759
That's that's that's um get him to therapy.
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:57.440
He does not go to therapy.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.720
Instead, like I say, he he sort of becomes their mascot almost.
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:06.000
And it's funny, uh, some of the Tans who with whom he was associated would recall later.
00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:16.399
They would say that he was he was kind of like a pesky little brother, this sort of over-eager little sproglet who's just could sort of nipping at their heels all the time.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:25.200
And worse than that, again, like on the schoolyard where he's trying to explain the politics to everyone, he's acting like he's a trained soldier, he's acting like he's one of them.
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:33.519
He's like telling these these hardened veterans of the Somme, you know, make sure you keep your rifles clean, make sure you keep your kit in order, all this, all this sort of stuff.
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:39.279
And you can just you we've all met this guy, you know, we've all encountered this guy in various walks of life.
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.960
This is a recognizable type, and you just want to smack him upside the head.
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:53.200
Like the the the sense of entitlement and superiority is like even just reading about his character from this period, like it's aggravating, it's so infuriating.
00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:54.080
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.480
You want to leap into the pages and throttle him.
00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:09.360
Like he's he's and and so you can imagine these guys who again, for for all that they are brutal, they're they're they're soldiers, they kind of know what they're doing, and they've got this irritant hanging around them.
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:21.039
And it's ironic that it's the Irish Republican Army, the IRA, whom Joyce obviously detested, they actually give him the validity of being a soldier that the black and tans deny him.
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:25.279
Because, as I say, they treat him like a you know the unit mascot.
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:30.559
But it's the IRA who actually target him for death, apparently.
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:43.919
One story is that they send a sniper out to set up a position on the street where the Joyce family home is, with the idea of picking off the now, what is he, 15, 16, something like that year old when he returns from a day out with the black and tans.
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:55.360
Now, again, not sure if this is if this is true, but what is true is that by the time the Irish War of Independence ends in 1921, Joyce was known to the IRA.
00:15:55.519 --> 00:16:07.679
He was known as a sympathizer with the British, he was hated accordingly, but he could not be killed by the IRA because before the peace is agreed, a ceasefire is enacted.
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:09.919
And Joyce is an agent of the crown.
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:23.120
So killing him, satisfying as that might be for the IRA in Galway, they're like, well, if we if we kill an agent of the crown, we're we're going to endanger this ceasefire, which is going to endanger the peace that both sides are uh working towards.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:40.960
So he he's protected for a time, but then once that ceasefire ends and the peace is decreed, and Ireland is divided into Irish Free State and what today is the Republic of Ireland and then Northern Ireland, which remains part of the UK, the IRA at that point can do whatever the hell they want with Joyce.
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:46.480
They have free reign to target him so long as he remains in the Irish Free State, and that means he needs to get the hell out of Dodge.
00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:53.519
And for what it's worth, you know, Joyce's father, Michael, he took the prospect of the IRA assassinating his son rather seriously.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:17:07.119
And so, with the help of the British Army officer who initially recruited William into the Galway garrison, they get him relocated to the relative safety of England, and Joyce gets enrolled in an army unit in Worcestershire.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:09.599
Surprise coming.
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:18.000
Little cosplay soldier boy does not last very long in the real army because he uh I I know, I know, I'm shocked too.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:20.400
Yeah, you could you could see that coming, right?
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.240
Yeah, yeah, could see it coming.
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:23.519
And it's the same story.
00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:27.200
He struts into the barracks like he did with the Tans, overconfident.
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:29.680
Hey, lads, I'm a soldier like you.
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:31.920
Let's serve Britain, etc.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:36.079
Bragged about all the fighting he did in Ireland, which wasn't real.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:43.839
Older, more mature soldiers saw this pretentious, pretend tough guy with his chest puffed out, dismissed him for the poser he was.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:50.640
And this, in addition to the fact that he's underage, this leads to him being discharged from the British Army in 1922.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.160
So not a glorious career in the military.
00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:00.400
He gets discharged, and then, well, obviously, I mean, this is what happens when you leave the army.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.319
You become a teacher.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:05.519
It happens to all of us, you know.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.480
We fail at life and then you you go and teach.
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.319
Um you just flip that switch.
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.160
So, what's his what's his teaching career?
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.000
What's he trying to do once the soldier fantasy dies?
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:21.200
Well, yeah, he he is still keenly aware that he is an intelligent guy, right?
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.839
So uh he he gives university a try.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:32.000
Um now I think he enroll in a in another institution and and that doesn't work out.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.559
I I'm sure I read that he was destined to do medicine and it just didn't work out for whatever reason.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.799
Um but anyway, he he enrolls at Birkbeck College in London.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.759
So he is studying for a degree in English language and literature.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:51.920
And um while he's there, he joins a couple of university societies, as you do.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:56.079
Um, one of them being um the Students Conservative Society.
00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:01.839
So he's honing his his you know his oratory and everything at this point.
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.519
Um, but anyway, he he basically he continues to express extreme, extreme views in his time there.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.440
And he finally graduates in 1927 with his degree.
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:25.920
Um, and now this one this is when it becomes a little bit more interesting because he gets a job teaching, but he is teaching colonial students to prepare them for their university entrance exams.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.359
So this could be, I don't know, kids from India, maybe?
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:30.000
Yeah, possibly.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:32.400
Or from Africa, kids of colour.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:33.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:40.480
So so people from from the you know from the wider British Empire um who want to go to university.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.039
So um I'm not I'm not precisely sure what he's teaching.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:47.200
Presumably it is language, it is language skills in some some way.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:20:00.079
Um and it seems really incongruous with his beliefs, but as a big fan of the ideals of empire, he would have seen this as, you know, he's doing a duty.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:06.720
He is he is seeking to improve uh, you know, the empire in in the broadest sense.
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.079
Raise up the lesser colonials, yeah, yeah.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:18.000
He's doing them a favor, and you know, and and and he would have believed in the sense of an imperial hierarchy.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:24.880
And I think he then would have felt this sense that um he's in a position of authority over these people.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.240
So he again, it would have helped him feel superior.
00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:39.440
Um, and it and it's just yeah, it's a just a continuation of his of his earlier, you know, his years as a as a kid when his you know different different uniforms, he's now in another position of authority.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:47.680
And I and I think it it's really clear he he feels that his talents are not recognized, and this is why he pursues this path.
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.480
Um, he does, he's not a teacher forever.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:21:01.200
It's important to say he feels the sense of his um possible political career calling him, and he he tries for several jobs after this point.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:12.160
He tries for several jobs in local government, in civil service until he applies for a role at the foreign office, and he's rejected for that role.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:32.559
Now, this is possibly because um a letter of recommendation is sought, um, and I think it was from the principal of his first uh he went to a polytechnic, I think it was sent from from the principal there, and and it basically said he has extreme political views, not what you want if you're gonna work for the foreign office.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:46.799
Um, so so it's clear that he's disappointed, and I think this is really the point where he develops this resentment, this bitterness towards the political establishment.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.039
Um and obviously, you know, he he feels he's failed.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.640
He's failed in several careers.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.440
He's still a young guy, but he's failed in several careers already.
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.759
It's quite an achievement to be to to fail so much at such a young age.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:01.599
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.240
Yeah, give him give him give him props for trying.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:11.759
Yeah, you can't you can't fault this guy's ambition, but it is that thing of the ability doesn't seem to match the ambition, does it?
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:19.839
No, he feels a bit kind of listless wandering through these these different pursuits, and and and he's can't really find his his place.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:27.680
But what this does enable him to do is develop still his efforts at public speaking.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:36.079
Um and he develops this really, I suppose, almost jarring offensive presence on stage.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.880
You know, you can't fail but to notice him.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:50.559
And and to the point where he later is described as being you know short, muscular, he's hyped up, he throws his head back and shuts his eyes and in tone.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:57.440
So he understands that it's this grandiose performance, and that is what he's developed really well through his early years.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:18.319
Which is going to be important because he's he's failed as a soldier, he's failed as a teacher, he's too opinionated, he's too obnoxious, he's too overconfident in his own beliefs and abilities, but the guy can talk, and this makes him a perfect recruit for this hot new cool ideology that's sweeping across Europe in the 1920s.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:19.599
Fascism.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.680
There it is, there it is, there's the F-word.
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:24.000
Yeah.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:29.599
Uh so wow, this is turning into a plug-heavy episode.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:37.200
But I have to say that our first episode of History's Devils, we talked about the origins of British fascism, and this is not about Oswald Mosley.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:46.000
We'll get to him in a bit here, but we talked about what's happening in the 1920s with the British Fascisti, and we need to uh cover back over this ground here.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.799
So just a brief, brief clipped version.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:54.480
The British Fascisti are established in 1923 by a lady by the name of Rotha Linton Orman.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:05.920
It's perhaps disingenuous to think of these as a fascist movement as we would think of today, because it's really conservatism on steroids and it's a very broad church.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:25.279
It's everyone from anti-Semites to people who uh fear for the loss of prestige and power in the empire, it's people with concerns about immigration, it's people who uh are anti-German and are now switching to being vehemently anti-communist, it's people who are anti-Irish.
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:32.720
It's basically people who have just got a lot of problems uh looking at the world around them and going, you know what, this place is going to the dogs, we need to do something.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:35.119
And uh Joyce gets wrapped up in that.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:36.799
He joins the British Fascisti.
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:46.640
He ends up uh being part of a division of the Fascisti called K Unit or K Squad, which is run by a name, a man by the name of Maxwell Knight.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.200
Uh the K is from his last name.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:56.240
They are donned in an all-black uniform, so it's a precursor to the black shirts that Oswald Mosley is going to make famous.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.640
They tend to spend most of their time beating up communists in Hyde Park.
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:02.160
Uh, that's their main vocation.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:21.119
They they break they do some break-ins of the Communist Party of Great Britain headquarters as well, but it's mainly scuffling with communists because the again communism is is I I wouldn't say it's rising as a force in Britain at this time, but you have a communist party and you have you have communists and fascists, and they're they're getting it on in the streets, you know.
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:47.440
But the the big event that occurs for Joyce in terms of his career and in terms of how how he evolves into this big fascist figure occurs in October 1924, when he and a bunch of lads from K-Squad go along to a Conservative Party speech that's being delivered in Battersea, and they are there to provide security, basically, for the for the politician who's speaking that night because they know that there's a bunch of communists who are going to turn up and try to shout him down.
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.240
And such is the volatile politics of this era.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:26:01.599
You got two squads of bully boys turn up with two opposing political views, thing falls into fisticuffs, there's a big fight, and in the middle of this, Joyce gets razored from lip to ear.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:03.519
This is the era of the razor gangs.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.200
This is Peaky Blinders, everyone's got a razor under their cap, it's that thing.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:13.519
And someone whips out a razor, holds him down, and cuts him from his lip right up to his eye, basically.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.480
It's a big, deep, gnarly wound.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:21.279
And it's really an important point for Joyce because there's there's two things here.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.319
One, he's now got his battle scar, right?
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.480
The the warrior has his war wound, and it's a doozy of a war wound.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.359
Like I say, this this scar where when it heals, it's pure Bond villain.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.319
You know, it's it's a it's a badass scar.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:37.759
Can't take that away from him.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.599
And this gives credibility and balance to his fantasy of being a soldier.
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:53.039
And the second thing is because this is some frackar and there's communists and fascists and fists and chairs and cudgels flying around, he's able to say, Well, it was a bunch of Jews who did it to me.
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:54.079
Which is not true.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:58.400
Um isn't there a story about it possibly being an Irish woman?
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.880
Yeah, there's there's all kinds of stories.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.079
And and again, this is part of the the mythology.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.519
You you you can't separate fact from fiction with a lot of this.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:14.480
But uh yeah, there's there's there's various stories and accounts of like I well, I thought it was just an angry Irish woman that did it.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:19.200
Um but yeah, which is not beyond the realms because he has pissed off the Irish.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:19.680
That's the thing.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.319
This guy's got this guy's got a long list of enemies.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:28.880
So could be Irish, it could be communists, uh, but this he's the only one who's saying, yeah, it was a gang of Jews who who targeted me.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:30.240
And again, it's that ego thing.
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:32.240
They targeted me because I am me.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:41.039
And it should be said, though, that that that claim to the to the Jews targeting him is it it's not completely out of left field.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:46.960
Anti-Semitism had been a part of British conservative culture going back to the Victorian era.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:55.200
However, by the 1920s, this stuff is getting more overt, and political figures with unambiguously anti-Semitic platforms are coming to the fore.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:03.279
Uh, one of the fellows we mentioned in that first episode of History's Devils was the World War I veteran/slash uh expert on the camel.
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.200
Uh I forgot about him.
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:07.279
The camel doctor, the camel doctor.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.079
The camel doctor.
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:14.079
Uh Arnold Lee, who is also one of Britain's uh, you know, predominant anti-Semites.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.039
Uh he becomes part of the British fascisti.
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:24.160
There's another fella kicking around at this time called Henry Hamilton Beamish, which is, you know, his name kind of tells you the kind of man he's gonna be.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:25.359
That says it all.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:25.599
Yeah.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:26.559
It's perfect.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:35.920
He he forms a group called the Britons in 1919, who are basically uh anti-Semitic, anti-immigration, anti-communist.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:41.119
And Beamish goes on to actually attend Nazi meetings alongside Hitler in 1923.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.640
He he f he's unambiguously anti-Semitic.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:53.519
So this stuff is getting more mainstream, and Joyce is part of that increasingly radicalized anti-Semitic wing of the British far right.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:59.039
And as such, he's already on that path towards Nazism as early mid-1920s.
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:08.240
He's already on that trajectory, and the fact that he's raised and the fact he's able to blame it on the Jews, that becomes part of that story he's telling himself of where he's gonna go.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:23.119
And that story continues into the 1930s when he ends up meeting and joining the association of a fellow by the name of Oswald Mosley, who is the founder of the British Union of Fascists.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:31.759
The BUF is established in 1932 to really bring together these discordant parts of Britain's far right.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.839
The British Fascisti has basically fallen apart at this time.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.359
Well, well, it has fallen apart.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:42.880
The the the the founder, Rotha Linton Orman, has gone to drink herself to death in the Canary Islands.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:44.640
Half the membership has left.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:57.119
Arnold Lees, the aforementioned camel doctor, he's formed something called the Imperial Fascist League, which does not have a massive membership, but they're very hardline, anti-Semitic, uh pro-Nazi, basically.
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:08.160
And there's various other small fascist groups, and and Mosley corrals all these together and says, Look, I'm in charge of y'all, and and I'm in charge of this thing called the British Union of Fascists.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:17.759
And Joyce, who has this rep because of the hard work he's put in and because he's been razored and everything else, he becomes uh a pretty high up in the BUF.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:28.640
He's a fierce lieutenant of Mosley's, but more than that, he's seen by some people, including Mosley himself perhaps, as a rival to the leadership of the British fascist movement.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:37.279
And that's because uh this goes back to what you were saying before about his this this gift of oratory that he's been developing for years now.
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:44.880
Fascism was and still is all about speaking through smoke and mirrors and performance.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:50.559
Okay, it's it's not about explaining detail, policy, structure, it's not about truth and facts.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:31:02.720
Fascism is about vibes, it's raw, violent emotion, the ability to inspire people to do heinous things by expressing that raw, violent emotion through convincing oratory.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.119
Oswald Mosley was damn good at this.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:08.480
William Joyce was better, right?
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:15.359
You've got there are people uh at the time talk about how he's this terrifying dynamic force when you put him in front of the mic.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.839
He's just this intense, angry, yet also articulate young man.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:27.920
He's got the scar from where he was razed, he's got the reputation of being a loyal defender of Britain, going right back to his time with the black and tans in Ireland.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:40.319
Mosley, in contrast, he's this, you know, polished posh boy, spent most of the 1920s bouncing around different political parties trying to find a way to grift himself into a position of power and influence.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:55.200
And so for the purists in the British Union of fascists, there's an argument to say that William Joyce, he's the real deal, and they should be following him rather than Oswald Mosley, who by comparison seems like a bit of a pretender.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:55.680
Yeah.
00:31:55.839 --> 00:32:05.839
So they I they they clearly had had a rivalry, but it I mean, is it true that they didn't get along and and actually was it was a hatred for each other?
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:13.519
I think it's that it's that thing of you know, we we don't like each other, but we we kind of sort of need each other.
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.759
And and I do think that Mosley respected Joyce to an extent.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:31.200
I think he he respected, if not the man, he respected what he could do for the movement and the fact that he was very good at what he did, which was this this oratory, also, you know, helping out with the general organization of the BUF.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:41.839
But that's the thing with these these any kind of populist party, there is only room for one Il Duce, you know, there's only room for one Fuhrer.
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.079
You you can't have two two front men.
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:44.880
Yeah.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:53.279
And and and and as I said, by by virtue of the fact this is performative, it's it's about big personalities and being emotive.
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:58.960
And if you have two of those people in the same space, uh it doesn't it doesn't work.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:32:59.440
You can't.
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:01.039
It there's just a clash, right?
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:02.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:10.240
And there's no I mean there there's times when they do seem to fall out, but they they keep it on the down low, you know.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:15.039
It's not it's not something that's out there, they're they're mindful, they don't want to put that out to the world.
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:17.839
So by and large, he's being very successful.
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:19.680
His political career is going very well.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.839
He's finally found somewhere to belong.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.759
It's all going well.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.039
But how's his personal life at this time?
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.400
What's happening behind the curtains of William Joyce's house?
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:31.200
What's going on?
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:32.799
Funny you mention it.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:40.000
You you would you would imagine that a person of his ilk would maybe have somewhat of a dysfunctional personal life.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:43.039
And I think we can say that is true.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:45.839
Um so good.
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:47.519
That's what we want to believe.
00:33:47.680 --> 00:34:02.319
Um, so he he actually he he gets married twice in his lifetime, the second of which we'll come on to uh later, but um in 1927 he marries a lady called Hazel, Hazel Barr.
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:10.159
And they lived in what seemed like some version of you know matrimonial bliss, I suppose.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:20.719
But she, of course, is there beside him during his rise in his political career in through fascist politics, and she supports that, um, which I think you kind of have to really.
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.239
It's just the way it is.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.519
It wouldn't work if she voted to the Greens.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.719
No, no, no, the arguments over the dinner table would be catastrophic.
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:33.840
So so so, yeah, so she she is supporting him.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:49.519
Um, they actually have two children, two daughters, and uh more recently, one of his um daughters said, you know, he he was a loving father and he was her daddy, and that's all she knew.
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:56.719
Um, yes, there was that sort of public political side to him, but um, you know, he was quite devoted at home.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:06.239
Um and they they sort of they they they drift along in um sort of this kind of domestic situation, let's call it.
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:12.400
And there's there's evidence that they move around from place to place and he's giving speeches in meeting halls.
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:20.079
Um but as you might imagine, it starts to fall apart a little bit.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:28.239
Um there's lots of evidence that he is unfaithful, um, and he starts having affairs.
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.760
Because he's a rock star.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:31.760
He's a rock star, naturally.
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:34.559
All the fascist groupies are gonna throw themselves at him.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:35.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:36.000
Exactly.
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:37.360
You could you can imagine this.
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:51.920
And and there's all kinds of um sort of rumors and and myths um that you know, that he he takes up a little house on the southeast coast, and um possibly that's you know, that's where he put a mistress.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:52.960
I don't know.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:59.920
But anyway, this is this is probably facilitated by the fact he's going around giving speeches and still still um developing that.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.840
But he becomes increasingly unpleasant and difficult.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.679
Um, and yeah, their their marriage starts to break down.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:15.199
So by by sort of 1936, um they are separated and they divorce in 1937.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:19.760
And actually, Hazel goes on to marry one of uh Mosley's bodyguards.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.880
So it comes back to you, you've got to keep it in the family.
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:26.639
Keep it in the family, it's it's a fascist scene thing.
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:27.440
Exactly.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Yeah, you gotta you gotta be part of their scene.
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:30.559
Yeah.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:46.159
Um, and so then it's actually not too long after this that he is moving again in in these in these fascist circles and and a particular set of people, and he meets a lady called Margaret Kairns White.
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:50.079
Now, I think the story is they were at a party.
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:54.960
Um, he's being his typical rock star, aloof character in the corner.
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:56.639
Canton charisma.
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:58.159
Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:36:59.920
He doesn't even need to try, right?
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.239
Because he steals up and emanates.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.519
That's it, his magnetic personality.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:13.519
Um, but the but essentially, yeah, the story is he he's he spots her, they're introduced, um, they seem to get along well.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:18.639
Um, you know, Margaret was was also a committed fascist.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.440
Um, so again, they share the same belief.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:27.599
So um, I don't know how true this is, but apparently at this party he says, Hey, do you want to get married?
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:28.639
Yeah, go on then.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:30.000
Just like that.
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.840
Just it's it's simple.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.920
That scar is doing a lot of work.
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.119
It's it's doing a lot of the heavy lifting right now, I tell you.
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:37.840
Yeah.
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:48.639
Um so so yeah, so then so then they are married, they um almost kind of settle into his fully committed to his political career at this point.
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:54.480
Um and meanwhile, elsewhere, elsewhere in Europe, trouble is brewing.
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:58.960
Trouble is brewing, and with that, there's there's a blowback onto the BUF itself.
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:14.719
So at about the time, in fact, that things are starting to stabilize in his personal life, stuff is starting to go haywire with Mosley, um, who actually sacks this star, this rock star from the BUF in 1937.
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.280
Now, there's a couple of reasons behind this, I think.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:20.239
One is almost certainly jealousy.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:26.159
Uh, there's been a few years, there's been a good couple of years now, they've been in this sort of love-hate relationship.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:39.920
Um, and you could see Mosley perhaps understanding that he has this uh very charismatic rival and that he does have to do something to get rid of him.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.159
But I I think the context is what really pushes that that grievance over the edge.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:48.480
And the context is that the BUF is is entering into a period of decline.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:55.280
So in 1934, Joyce is, I can list off his his various jobs with the BUF at this point.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.320
He is the West London area administrative officer, which sounds very interesting.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:01.280
Catchy.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:02.239
Catchy.
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.519
He is the deputy leader, that's punchier, sounds sounds better.
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.199
And importantly, he is the head of propaganda.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.760
The significance of this will become apparent when we look at his later career in Nazi Germany.
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:20.880
Um, so he's he's wearing a lot of hats, and he's he's one of the few people it should be mentioned in the BUF who's being paid well for the various jobs he's doing.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:26.159
So he's he's got a there's a price tag attached to this man because he is he is worth it.
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.639
And the question is, why is he doing so many jobs?
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:36.639
And it's because the fascist movement, you know, he he's the best they've got, which is kind of like saying he's the nicest guy in prison.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:41.599
You know, he's he's he's he's the best, he's the best of the shits.
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.519
And that's because the talent bench of the BUF is really not very deep.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:50.960
It's basically Mosley, Joyce, and a bunch of jabronies, you know, like that they're they're the only game in town.
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:57.280
And this makes him more of a threat to Mosley, and it makes him a target for the latter when he has to trim the BUF's budget.
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:03.119
And that moment comes at the end of the 1930s because of the aforementioned decline in the BUF's fortunes.
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:07.599
And this is happening both domestically and as as a consequence of international events.
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:20.000
So domestically, I would say the height of the BUF uh comes in June 1934 when they have this massive rally at the Olympia in West Kensington, this magnificent Victorian domed venue.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.800
15,000 odd people at this rally.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:36.320
Beneath the crowds, though, like it looks great, but beneath the assembly, there's not a lot happening politically because by the mid-1930s, the BUF's membership is about 40,000.
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:38.239
It's kind of plateaued.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:44.079
They've got a couple of counselors in local elections, but they've never managed to land an MP in Parliament.
00:40:44.239 --> 00:41:05.679
And in 1936, moreover, the BUF basically shoots itself in the foot through a stunt that goes on to be called the Battle of Cable Street, which most people will have heard of, but to explain it and to perhaps demythologize it, because there's a lot of nonsense written about the Battle of Cable Street, and uh the truth is is sadly a bit more a bit more uh mundane.
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:17.599
So on the 4th of October 1936, you get a group of 3,000 odd fascists led by Mosley who form up to march through East London, which is a predominantly Jewish area of town.
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:19.679
It's a deliberate provocation.
00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:25.760
They are met by tens of thousands of counter-protesters who fight them in the streets.
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:27.519
Uh they shall not pass.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:33.519
You know, it's this big moment of defiance where the where the Avengers assemble to fight off the fascist Thanos.
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:35.599
And this is not what happened.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.159
This is this is a wonderful myth, but it is a myth.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:45.199
What actually happened is the police turn up en masse, like most of the London Constabulary turn up, most of the Met police turn up.
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:50.320
They assess the situation, they go, Wow, this is gonna turn into a shitshow if we let the march go on.
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:51.920
It's a threat to civil order.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:54.400
So they tell Mosley, disband and sod off.
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:57.840
Go go have a little march in West London where no one's gonna give a shit.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.920
Go do that, but not here.
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:10.639
And there were some clashes between protesters and marches, but realistically, more fighting occurs between the anti-fascists and the police than between the BUF and those who who assemble to oppose them.
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:20.880
So, yes, a lot of people turn out, but it's it's less what happens at Cable Street is less a righteous battle and more a police intervention that snuffed out the fight, fighting before it could begin.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:25.280
So again, it's a it's a humbler truth there, but it is the truth.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.239
The point is, though, it's a defeat.
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.400
Okay, Mosley had to call off the march.
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:31.519
He had to back down.
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:34.159
And fascists, fascists don't back down.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:36.719
You've got to double down, you've got to always be pushing forward.
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:38.719
They're depicted as weak in the press.
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:44.000
Mussolini, who's a financial backer of the BUF, is very unimpressed by this.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.159
He's like, well, why am I backing these losers?
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:51.119
They can't even, they can't even march in into a sordid east end of London without the police.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:53.920
I mean, if they were real fascists, they would have started shooting the police.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:54.559
What is this?
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:56.559
You know, it's it that's that's his view on it.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:09.039
So Cable Street in a nutshell showed that this kind of openly anti-Semitic, paramilitary-style fascism, you know, street violence-level fascism, it's not going to work in Britain like it has in Europe.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:09.840
It's just not.
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:16.800
The context isn't there, the lawlessness isn't there, the breakdown of civil society and political norms isn't there.
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:27.119
And this ties to the other problem for the BUF that they had in the late 1930s, and that was the reputation that Moseley's brother fascists in Europe were developing in the eyes of many in Britain.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:33.039
So in October 1935, Mussolini invades Abyssinia or modern-day Ethiopia.
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:37.199
He drops 300 tons of mustard gas on the Ethiopians.
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:42.079
And this is not just the Ethiopian army, this is villages full of civilians, this is Red Cross personnel.
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:44.880
These are neutral people there doing humanitarian work.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.320
He does that because he's a fascist, and fascists are all about the fuck you.
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:54.639
It's like, yeah, fascists fight wars, you know, sod your international law, sod your niceties.
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.039
We what we got gas, we're gonna use it.
00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:59.440
And this does not go down well.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.000
Look, this makes Mussolini a a bit of an international pariah.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:12.960
And then you've got, you know, good old Adolf on the 7th of March 1936, having become Chancellor of Germany three years prior.
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:25.039
He comes out of his shell, defies the Treaty of Versailles, moves tanks and troops into the Rhineland, the border with West Germany that borders the that was demilitarized after the First World War.
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:30.400
Again, deliberate thumb in the eye of the international community and the post-World War order.
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:37.920
So by the mid-1930s, Europe's fascist dictators are starting to look like these nasty, warlike, lawless bastards.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:52.400
And British fascism, which as I mentioned before, the the fascisti come out of conservatism and a broad church far right, it's a more genteel form of fascism, if that's the right word, to what Hitler and Mussolini are peddling.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:59.840
It's it's as I say, it's conservatism with with I believe I believe a cons contemporary at the time said it was conservatism with knobs on, right?
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:00.880
That's that's what it is.
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:01.360
Yeah.
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:03.920
And that's not that's not mustard gas.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.519
That's not gassing people.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:15.840
So when Mosley tries to do the paramilitary violence gimmick in East London, uh and and fails at it, even more so, he and his party become pretty unpalatable to a lot of people.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:21.440
Not everyone, but but enough people, because Britain, you know, Britain's a conservative country, but it's not radical.
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:25.679
And fascism, we we we we mistake fascism for conservatism.
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:32.719
Fascism is not a conservative ideology, it's radical, it's a radical, violent ideology, it's a scary ideology if you actually see it implemented.
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:36.239
And and I hope I'm not kind of generalizing too much.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:46.159
Um, but as a as a Brit, I feel I've got license to say, well, actually, people probably liked the idea of a lot of these things until it became a reality.
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:47.840
And then it becomes scary.
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:58.800
So and and it and it's it it still surprises a a lot of people to to to look back over this era and find out a lot of people supported fascism in its broadest sense.
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:04.480
But as you say, there's a very different, um, it's very different between conservatism and fascism.
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:10.800
Um, but as you say, the the taste for this waned significantly very quickly.
00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:17.199
Once they see what it actually is, again, fascism, like like like most populist ideologies, it promises you the earth.
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:21.599
And it looks like this, and particularly at this stage, because the second world war hasn't happened yet.
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:25.519
It's this shiny new thing that's gonna fix all the ills.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:31.119
But then when you actually see what it amounts to, you know, the the concentration camps have been set up at this point.
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:35.360
You know, we've got the the first concentration camps are happening, and then people people know about this.
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:40.480
If they're paying attention, they know about this, and they've seen they've seen what's happened in in Abyssinia.
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:42.480
Hitler's flouting international law.
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:44.559
So, yeah, people are looking at this and going.
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:50.960
Uh, a lot of people in Britain are look at this and going, you know what, this this fascism stuff, I don't think this is British.
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:54.880
Yeah, Joyce, however, does not get this memo.
00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:00.320
When he's booted out of the BUF, in fact, he doubles down on being a Hitler devotee.
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:01.039
Yeah.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:05.679
Um, and he forms this thing called the National Socialist League.
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:13.280
He goes so far as to grow a Hitler tash, which really undercuts the scar gimmick he's got going.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:15.280
Like, just stick with that sunshine.
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:15.760
Stop.
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.400
Why, why be it, why be a derivative of someone else?
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:19.599
Be it, be yourself.
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:28.480
You know, but I I think that look was quite popular in that era, but I don't know whether it's just that was fashion or you know, people were genuinely like, I'm gonna copy Hitler.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:31.440
I think by the time he's growing, I I think you're right, it was a fashion.
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:33.440
You know, Hitler, Hitler doesn't come up with it.
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:35.760
He's he's doing what you know all the cool kids are doing.
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:40.320
But but I think that that by by the time Joyce is doing it, he's doing it because Hitler's doing it.
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:48.079
You know, it's like it's like when everyone got their haircut like David Beckham back back in 2001, whatever it was when he started doing daft things with his hair.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.039
All the lads wanted a Dave Beckham haircut, it's the same thing.
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:57.360
Um so he and he becomes more openly anti-Semitic, uh, more openly anti-Semitic than Mosley.
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:05.519
And it should be noted that that before their break, you know, Mosley is saying to Joyce, can you can you he's off on the anti-Semitic shit.
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:12.079
Like, like, you know, he's Oswald Mosley is telling you to to back off on the Jews.
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:16.880
That's that's how how again, because Joyce doesn't know when to shut his fucking mouth.
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:18.559
He just he can't help himself.
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:32.400
So he's he's he's not understanding that this stuff, despite the that anti-Semitism, that inherent anti-Semitism I mentioned before amongst conservatives in Britain, he doesn't understand that this message is not palatable to a general electorate in Britain.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:43.599
And he just he just he doubles down, he aligns himself openly with the Third Reich, his National Socialist League, is basically saying, look, we want National Socialism in Britain.
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:53.360
And the question, when you're looking at this, the question I have, at least that comes to my mind is how can someone claim they're they're a patriotic Britain when they're acting this way?
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:55.199
This is the late 1930s.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:58.239
War with Germany looks increasingly certain.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:04.559
How does Joyce square that circle of being a Hitler fanboy whilst claiming to defend Britain's best interests?
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:19.519
And I think it's the same kind of psychology that's at play with people like uh Stephen Yaxley Lennon, known by his gimmick name of Tommy Robertson, and Nigel Farage, who, lest we forget, takes money from mysterious Thai businessmen.
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:31.199
Reasoning that both of these men have, other than enriching themselves, of course, is that, you know, the these foreign interests want a vision of the world that in which Britain is not what it currently is.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:36.719
They want an illiberal Britain, they want a Britain that rejects democracy and a rules-based order.
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:41.280
And Fraj and Yaxley Lenin and people like that are going, yeah, well, that that'd be just fine.
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:43.360
That's the version of Britain they want.
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:45.679
And I think Joyce thinks the same way.
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:54.559
Like since the 1920s, he's bet his personal and professional life on the idea that fascism is the ideology of the future and that Britain is going to have to embrace it.
00:49:54.800 --> 00:50:02.079
Joyce expects his country, the country he loves, to align itself with the Nazi world order that the Fury is saying is imminent.
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:11.920
So when the opposite happens, and the BUF can't even organise a march in the East End of London, Joyce is looking at this and going, well, if this is what Britain is, I don't want anything to do with Britain.
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:17.039
Yeah, he he sees himself as as bailing out before it all collapses.
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:29.519
And and he even he he we know he's fantasizing at this time, and he's created this image of of a Britain with a new government, and he's even fantasizing how he's gonna fit into that.
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:38.239
Um he's gonna be a cog in the new government that is gonna that is gonna take control of Britain after all, after you know, after all this is said and done.
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:46.239
Yeah, he's and and this is this is a a really important point to consider given the the decision he's about to make.
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:49.440
He he knows the war's coming.
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:57.440
He doesn't want to be part of Britain if Britain isn't gonna be fighting alongside Hitler in the struggle against the communists, the Jews, the Soviets, whoever else.
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:00.800
Um, and so that's what leads him to fall in.
00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:07.519
To his mind, to be a patriot means to now be a servant of the Third Reich.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:10.559
So, how does that decision go?
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:12.159
How does it end for William Joyce?
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.880
What adventures will he have in Hitler land?
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:19.679
We'll answer these questions in I I think this is gonna have to be a double episode.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:21.280
We'll have to do a part two here.
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:25.440
And in a change from how we've done episodes in the past, I'll just say this to the listeners.
00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:28.960
In the past, we've released double episodes like one week after the other.
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:36.159
This time I'm gonna release these at the same time, so you can go straight on to downloading the next episode and conclude the story of Lord Ho-Hor.
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.000
Jane, thank you for coming along for part one of this ride.
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:41.599
Thank you very much indeed.
00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:43.679
Looking forward to the next part.
00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:47.440
It's coming soon, and uh, we'll see you then, dear audience.
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:51.199
Uh, tune in for the next instalment of History's Devils.