Kristen Borth: Hi everybody, welcome to Primo Perspective. I'm Kristen Borth.
Lorie: And I'm Lori Mills.
Kristen Borth: Lori, ⁓ we're gonna be talking about a really sad story today, but I wanna talk about it because I think there's some confusion on the patient side. And I think that ⁓ there's some support or some ideas that we could give for the hospital side. So ⁓ I know that you've heard this story, but for our listeners, I was reading and listening my news, and across the top.
Lorie: Yes.
Kristen Borth: Came toddler found dead, but pronounced alive in the morgue. And I was like, what? So I clicked on immediately, started reading the story. And a toddler, little Vincent, was ⁓ found in the pool. He was estimated to be in the pool for about five minutes. His parents rushed him to the hospital, and police were there, and police kept saying to the nurse and the doctor that they kept.
Lorie: Yeah.
Kristen Borth: Thinking that he was breathing or taking gasps of air. And ⁓ there's two components of this, these articles that I was reading that one nurse kept telling this doctor, I keep hearing him gasp. I think that he's breathing. And the doctor turns to the nurse and says, I went to medical school, I know how to do my job. Stop. And declares, like, pronounces him dead. So they send him down to the morgue.
Lorie: Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: And the medical examiner then ⁓ comes upon that, talk about an interesting moment as a medical examiner. That would be my nightmare. But ⁓ hears him gasping, sends him for an MRI, finds out that his ⁓ you know, his brain is still active, but that he has issues. And I'm going to pass it over to you right after I say the one sentence I was searching for the entire
Lorie: Yes.
Kristen Borth: time I was reading these articles was what caused the brain injury? Was it the water, the pool, or was it a malpractice type situation?
Lorie: So yeah, you and I have not really discussed this, but I will tell you, with them having a recorded statement of the provider saying what he did, that hospital's gonna have to write a check. There it regardless of where the brain damage comes from, if it come from the pool or if it come from the medical care, that statement in itself is guaranteed that family will get a settlement.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ my god. Yeah.
Lorie: you you cannot have that type of attitude and not expect it. I have I worked with a risk manager one time and she could disfuse almost any situation. So, you know, when something like that happened, she was like the first person they would put to go have a conversation with the patient's family or with the patient or whatever, anything that happened for a risk management standpoint. ⁓ but I also want to say
Kristen Borth: No.
Lorie: My thought on that is you have a provider who will not listen to educated staff who is in the room. So what did the staff do? Did they pursue it further? Did they go find another physician and tell them or find the chief medical officer and be like, this is what's going on? Or did nursing call the their DON and explain, we got this situation. I need somebody to come to the ER. somebody needs to to see this besides us. ⁓ you know that that in itself made me wonder what did the staff do? Now granted the doctor, I was like, I'm I'm kind of furious with him that he had that because that made me wonder, does he trust his staff that works with him? Does he trust the staff that's working in the ER with him? Another question is, is this a known trait of this provider?
Kristen Borth: Mm. Right. Mm-hmm.
Lorie: Is does he always blow off nursing staff or you know, belittle people that try to go against maybe what he said? ⁓ is it is that a tendency for him to do that? And you can bet if he has those tendencies and there's records of other things like that happening in the past, that he's definitely going to have to write a check himself, not only the hospital.
Kristen Borth: Definitely think, I definitely think that he should be in deep water. I mean, but then I have this whole thought, and obviously we understand components of of you know medical care, and that's why we talk about it, that's why we do this, but at the same time, I worked in an ER and in a nursing home, and I can tell you as parent.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: The stink that I would put up if I was hearing a police officer and a nurse or other, you know, medical professional say that they were, you know, they were hearing gasps, be like, what are you doing? Can you check this? Can you like I would be pushing the doctor as well? So it made me wonder on the patient side, do they know that they're empowered? Because we've been doing some crossover episodes where we're talking about, you know.
Lorie: Yep. Yes.
Kristen Borth: Patient questions, I wonder if they know that that's something that they can do as well. Do they feel empowered to do that?
Lorie: No, they don't. They don't realize that there are patient advocates that work in the facility. And usually they're going to be in your risk management department, but they're they're going to be patient advocates that you can call when you're having a problem ⁓ at the hospital and those advocates will go up and talk to the patient's family. They'll talk to the patient at the patient's, you know, where they can then speak. ⁓ and they will investigate. And then they'll bring that back. And it's a lot of times, you know, I've I've been in those meetings where cases were discussed afterwards. ⁓ you know, and it was brought back. And sometimes the risk manager would would say, We're wrong. We're wrong. and I've been in that situation, and no, this is not the story I'm gonna tell you, but this is another story. ⁓ I've been in that situation where I I had to report the ER.
Kristen Borth: I'm waiting.
Lorie: for just really reprehensible treatment that I got ⁓ as a patient. And I I I struggled with that because I'm always about protecting my docs if they're doing what they're supposed to do and all. but I I had to wrestle with that and I actually formally reported the hospital I worked at, their ER.
Kristen Borth: Wow.
Lorie: to risk management. And I had a sit down with the the chief ⁓ medical officer from the ER and the risk manager and myself. ⁓ and Sam was in there with me and we had we had a discussion about what we thought had happened and and the E the ER director at first was kind of belligerent. But then the risk manager looked at him and she she said she told him what was wrong with her when she came in the door.
Kristen Borth: Mm.
Lorie: They knew she already had her lab work done. Everybody knew what was wrong with her. And y'all let her lay there all day without giving her any insulin. And she went developed encephalopathy, got to where she couldn't talk. And so it's very important that we understand that patients have rights. And that was not my right just because I worked there. That was my right as a patient. I needed to advocate.
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: sometimes patients aren't in the position to advocate for themselves because they're too sick or they're they're unconscious. But you need or they're a child. You need someone there with you that can advocate for you as well. And and and make sure because let's face it, bad things happen everywhere. we're humans, there are mistakes that happen.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Lorie: And that's sad to say, and it's unfortunate that it does happen, but it happens. We are humans. But for a mistake to happen because someone intentionally ignored a situation is a whole nother issue.
Kristen Borth: Unfortunately. Yes. Yes. And I feel like the media in this specific situation, and and don't get me wrong, it's atrocious, but I feel like they are especially trying to activate that that patient patients, you know, get treated this way at hospitals all the time. This happens all the time at the hospitals. And maybe it's, you know, some of the articles that I picked, because I tried to choose from a variety of news sources to Get a really perspective on ⁓ you know, what they were saying. But I felt like a lot of them were very critical of hospital activities. And I I'm not saying that it's not warranted because in this situation and the trauma that those parents were probably going through that that kept them from maybe being as clear headed as maybe they would.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: like to think they would be or I would like to think I would be. But ⁓ it just like I I hope that somewhere we can find this balance of th this is not the hospital's end game with patients. And you know this is this is a unique experience that
Lorie: Yeah. No, no, by far no it's not.
Kristen Borth: Like you said, does happen more often than we would like it to and is unfortunate. But this is a unique experience of a certain situation, a certain provider, certain staff, even, because I know so many ⁓ nurses and I love them for this, but I know so many nurses that are not like, you know, sit back and and and wait because the doctor says to do this or doctor says this is what you should do. They are strong for a reason and I love them for it because I don't know that I would always be so upfront. So
Lorie: Yes. So and that that is a lot of it ⁓ at times is your your nurses have to be very strong because they have to they have to be able to advocate for their patients. I've had nurses advocate for me as a patient because I would come in so very sick. ⁓ one of the first times I went in, I was so very sick, they thought I was drunk.
Kristen Borth: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lorie: Or that I had been drinking and as because my blood sugar wasn't high at all, it was normal, but I was in DKA. So the physician, one of the things he asked me, he I mean, he was livid, he came in the room and he says, So when is the last time you've had a drink? And I was like, I had a glass of wine about three weeks ago. I mean, and I was being sincere. I that was. ⁓ but the nurse, she could never get him to put orders in. for some medic medicine and stuff. And so she she come in and she put sh I don't know what she did, but anyway, she got my medicine. She said, You've gotta have this and we're gonna get it And so sh she got me medicine. But that nurse advocated for me. And yeah. Mm.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. And I I mean I've seen them do that so many times. and especially it was interesting because in the nursing home, you didn't have providers rounding often. They they came in, you know, once a week, sometimes depending on the the provider. So you might have a provider there every single day, but it's a provider for a specific resident. And so I remember watching those nurses, you know.
Lorie: Right.
Kristen Borth: This is what's been happening the last five days. You need to do this, doctor. And the doctor's like, well, I don't see that happening. And they're like, but it's been happening every single day. Look at the chart. It's documented. And they advocate where, you know, patients, families can't all always be there to do that. But I I I do I have to get I have to give our nurses kudos because it they know their stuff and they're they're pushing for the betterment of patients too. But I think that can also.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.
Kristen Borth: That strongness from our nurses can come across like they're against patients as well. Cause I don't always come across warm and f fuzzy when you know you're you're trying to get things done and the nurses be or and the patient's feeling terrible and the nurse is just like, I gotta get this done. It's not always warm and fluff fluffy.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right. Fluffy, no, it's this not. And you know, you talked about pati people perceiving or patients perceiving bad care in facilities and things like that. You know, we have a lot of quality standards that we hospitals must follow. And y we may be hitting all the marks on those p quality scan standards, which are for good care, but your patient
Kristen Borth: We do.
Lorie: may perceive because they had to wait too long for for medication or that no one was able to come help them get up to go to the restroom, you know, s as soon as they buzzed and things like that. And there's a whole big thing about short staffing and all. So sometimes, and I'm not saying it that in this case at all, but sometimes when people perceive they're getting bad care, it's not really that they're getting bad care. They're just not getting the immediate attention. That they perceive they should be getting as a patient. I I think that's it. And I've been guilty of that too. I have. I've been guilty of of that. So I want to give you a statistic. I looked it up. How often have patients been pronounced dead and come back to life? It is actually.
Kristen Borth: Okay. ⁓ my. I feel like this is gonna be way higher than I think it should be.
Lorie: It no, it's actually very, very rare. But it yes, but there are eighty one up to eighty-one documented cases of this actually happening. And I don't know what that time frame was. One one study said it had happened 60 times in 40 years. So I mean it's you know, it's it's a big thing. But the name of it is Lazarus phenomenon. Yes, that's what they named it. Yes, Lazarus Phenomenon.
Kristen Borth: Really? Really? ⁓ I didn't know that.
Lorie: So now I'm gonna tell you a story. I'm gonna tell you something that you I don't know that you know this. So our cohort, Vicky, who works with us, her mother, and let me say this: I got permission to tell this story before I'm telling it. Okay. So Vicki's mother was very sick and in the hospital. Very, very, very sick. She'd been in the hospital for, I believe, weeks at this point. She coded.
Kristen Borth: Okay, perfect. Mm.
Lorie: She died. The doctor pronounced her. The doctor was in a conference room with the family, talking to them, telling them, you know, their mother had passed away, what had happened. Da da da da da. The nurse comes in and tells the doctor, this is several minutes later, she has a pulse. Yes. For real. And this just our very own Vicky. ⁓
Kristen Borth: Man. For real. Our very own Vicky. ⁓ my goodness.
Lorie: Then they rushed her mother to surgery and and and so I'm telling you this too because I asked Vicky, I said, would you be comfortable doing a podcast with Kristen and I to talk about this because it is such a rare phenomenon, but it does happen. And there were there was no malpractice discussion at all in the hospital with this because it it truly it happened just the way she was telling it. I mean they they worked on her, they pronounced her.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. You what?
Lorie: He was talking to the family and the nurse comes and gets him. She's alive. So then they took her to surgery, and I'm not sure what surgery she had, but she lived another few weeks. And I and I mean she was like talking and laughing and and enjoying her family's company. She was still in the hospital and she did eventually die of I want to say two weeks later, maybe. ⁓ but yes, that did happen. So, you know, it it's rare, but it happens.
Kristen Borth: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ my word. Well, that gives me so much hope for you know sweet little Vincent's family because they're talking about the it in the news, they're talking about how they don't know what kind of brain damage this could cause, but it's extensive.
Lorie: Right.
Kristen Borth: Therapy that's gonna need to happen. And you know, at that age, their brains are forming and and there's so many big things, but that gives me hope that they he can go on to live a full life. I mean, it's a miracle, anyways, that that he not that necessarily I'm I'm gonna say this, not necessarily that it was caught.
Lorie: Right. Right.
Kristen Borth: Because I do know the protocols that are in place because I have to check them every time. So not necessarily that it was caught, but that it was dismissed in some ways or put off in some ways and then brought back around and to show that you know he he is still here. I mean, talk about a roller coaster for his family, but that that would just put so much, it would fill my heart with so much hope.
Lorie: Easily.
Kristen Borth: And then hearing other stories like Vicky's mother where you know she's talking and this was after minutes. ⁓ wow. ⁓ my word. That's amazing.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It it is. So and and you know, I'll throw this out there. You and I both are profess professed Christians and we believe in miracles and things like that. And to me, that that that is a miracle. It's a miracle. And that, you know, and and we don't know, like you said, what kind of brain damage Vincent's going to have, but it could be that he recovers fully, hopefully. You know, that would be my wish. And that's what we could pray for. ⁓ so it's ⁓ it it's
Kristen Borth: Yes. Yes. It is. Mm. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Lorie: It's very interesting cases like this to to look at. You know, you've seen the the ⁓ books where what it was it, Seven Minutes in Heaven when the kid the little kid died. And ⁓ yeah, there's several several different ones that I've watched movies or read those books and it it and it's amazing ⁓ for that to be that way.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. Forgot about that book. Yeah yeah.
Lorie: ⁓ I I yeah, I I don't discount miracles at all. I I still believe that miracles can happen. And sometimes, you know, they come in and forms like this. And and I think it's hard for us to accept it nowadays that that could truly be a miracle from God. You know? ⁓ so I there's a lot to unpack in this, and I and I'm I'm looking forward to waiting on how this unfolds. ⁓
Kristen Borth: No. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I want to follow this. I want to see how it unfolds with the hospital setting and how it unfolds for ⁓ Vincent and his family as well. So let's take another detour and let's talk about the hospital side because as a hospital, you are managing so many different patients coming in, and when one scenario
Lorie: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Kristen Borth: One situation, one encounter, ⁓ launches you into the media, launches you into the news. It's chaos for the hospital just in general, but it has to still underlying be business as normal because you are still treating patients while this you know media storm is happening. So, from your opinion, what do you think hospitals
Lorie: Right. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: Either do really well or should do really well. And where do you think they they could use some, you know, good support?
Lorie: Well, I think part of the problem is is the patient or the the patient's representatives, they can say anything they want to say and it's perceived as that's the way it is. But because of HIPAA and other compliance and other things, hospitals can't come out and tell you a lot of times really what happened because they're bound by these rules and regulations. And so it's hard for them other than to come out and say, We did everything we could, our staff performed appropriately, ⁓ you know the patient We don't know what happened. That they can't really give any details. They can just come out and say, and I've been in that situation to where patients have gotten on Facebook and wrote either wrote really disparaging ⁓ posts about providers where I worked or providers that I knew, or they've got on and done Facebook Live and and would be complaining about, you know, what happened at the hospital and this, that, and the other. And and I think sometimes myself, I really want to get on there and I want to comment back and say, well, this is why this is happening. This is why it took two weeks to get your CT ⁓ prior authorized and you couldn't you had to have it in two weeks is because of your insurance company. We want to get on there and tell those things. And we we really can't. one of my clients is a small rural facility and people are always Talking about the bad things that happen at the the little hospital. ⁓ and I always want to tell them, you know, guys, bad things happen at every hospital. But, but you just hear about it more in a small town and a small hospital than you do in the big hospitals. ⁓ the other thing is you
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: Like I said, patients just perceive sometimes that things are bad care. When it's not really bad care, it just takes a long takes longer than the patient thinks it should. ⁓ I I've I've wanted to write a letter to the editor at this facility I'm at now because this is my heart. I've I've been at this facility, I've worked there for years and years, ⁓ back in the early two thousands. And I wanted to write a letter to the editor and just say, Okay, yeah, you you fuss about your hospital, but where else are you gonna go? Your next closest hospital is 30 miles away in one direction, 55 miles in another direction, and 82 miles in another direction. You know, and there are countless lives that have been saved at this royal hospital. I can I mean there's some stories, ⁓ my gosh, amazing stories.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right.
Lorie: And these patients have been saved, and nobody really talks about that. Nobody gets on Facebook a lot of times and promotes the great things that have happened to them at this hospital. It's always the bad things. ⁓ you know, recently someone had made a post on Facebook about some things that had happened there and they had to have a full-blown investigation. And when they got down to the bottom of the investigation,
Kristen Borth: Right. Yeah.
Lorie: What was portrayed on Facebook is not actually what happened. And so, yeah.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. I do think you that that that that all in of itself it points me to where I think that a lot of hospitals should invest a little bit more than they do. ⁓ and I understand, you know, money's tight, it's hard, but I do think that hospitals need to do a better job at being their own social media advocate.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: So you can have a Facebook page or an Instagram page or whatever, you can have those. But if you are not promoting of the improvements that you're doing, these don't even have to be the compliance, you know, talking about the hot topics that may be coming out in your hospital. If you are talking about what you're doing to be better for your community or serve your community, I feel like that goes a long way.
Lorie: Right. Mm-hmm.
Kristen Borth: Not to stop, you know, the attacks, but to showcase that you're putting the best foot forward. And I do feel like most hospitals are doing that. You know, during COVID, this became a really big thing. A whole book was written by a nurse that said that, you know, hospitals were declaring patients were were deceased.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yes. Right.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ with COVID when it wasn't COVID, and they were letting them die because of COVID, and there was all this stuff. And so I feel like some of that and what we've learned from that, which I don't know that experience, so I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I feel like some of that we should learn from and push forward. They're like, okay, well, how will we combat this? Let's let's put in some time now to get some social media because that's how a ton of people get their news now. And
Lorie: Yes.
Kristen Borth: Let's put in the time now so that we can do better at showing our community what we're trying to improve, what we're trying to do for them.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, you're talking about during COVID and at the facility I was at during COVID. There was a, I believe a journalist from Arizona. I know that's kind of a coincidence, but it was from somewhere out west called our ICU medical director because there was a patient
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: And that patient's family had been putting stuff out on social media about the hospital wouldn't do this. They were wanting the hospital to give the patient ivermectin and all this kind of stuff. And the the patient they did the hospital finally, they just they did everything they could do. I and I wanna say they even used ivermectin. ⁓ but the patient died anyway.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ Mm.
Lorie: And it was just one of those things that COVID was just something we didn't know anything about, you know. And and I saw physicians and nurses all during that time because I worked in a hospital during COVID. And and we they pulled non-clinical staff to go work in the hospital, ⁓ like doing temperatures at the doors, working in the nurses stations and things like that. ⁓ and I providers were so just downtrodden because
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lorie: They were doing everything they knew to do and and doing other things that they never thought they would do, trying to save people's lives. And then they have these reporters from, you know, out west. We even had one physician who was followed home by patients' family. Like, yeah. I mean, it we had some physicians that had to be escorted out of our it was mostly our critical care physicians, had to be escorted to their cars after they were
Kristen Borth: Right. Really? ⁓
Lorie: ⁓ getting off work because there had been death threats and all kind of threats made against them because, you know, you couldn't you couldn't go see your family member because of COVID and it and I think we just kinda all just got so bundled up in the the anxiety of all of it that we let our humanistic side go. And I don't know that we've gathered all that back yet.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Lorie: But like you said, yes we've got to figure out for hospitals to promote the good things that they do. Yeah, bad things happen. But how do we promote the good things they do? I also do think that we sh healthcare facilities should be more accepting of responsibility when it is their fault.
Kristen Borth: I agree. I agree. Mm-hmm.
Lorie: Yeah, we screwed up. We we we screwed up. And yes, it's gonna cost you when you do that. But ⁓ the risk manager I was talking about earlier, she she said that it was easier to talk to a family if you admitted what what happened was your fault and wrong, and they were less likely to sue than if you adamantly denied it.
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: Knowing that you had some fault in it, if you adamantly denied it, the patients were more likely to sue ⁓ than not.
Kristen Borth: Which totally makes sense to me because I definitely trust a facility or an organization more that admits that something is wrong and it was their fault and they're gonna fix it. I immediately think, ⁓ that that organization, which may sound weird, but that organization's more self-aware. They're aware that they're not, they're not perfect. They're not trying to put on, you know, this showcase of, ⁓ everything is great. Everything is perfect.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: And and so I immediately trust them just a little bit more. And I think it is hard for hospitals to do that because so much in the hospital is life or death. You know. And it's I mean, I I've seen I've seen family members, I've seen my docs, ⁓ you know, crumble after a situation.
Lorie: Right.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ with a patient and and them them reacting in a very human way because they were trying everything that they could. The patient still ⁓ you know, coded, the patient still wa ⁓ died in the end, and they tried everything. And it's the patients don't always see that. And I think COVID turned the theory on a head where you know you're you're supposed to go to the ER with somebody all the time, never show up by yourself. You know?
Lorie: Right. Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: And that was a whole thing. And so I think that's partially why patients were really frustrated. It's like, well, you've been telling me for decades, don't go to the ER by myself. And now I'm supposed to leave them here to just be watched by you in this crisis. Like I I I get I get the frustration. That was such a high stress time. But it's almost like it's almost like some of our docs have PTSD.
Lorie: Right. It was.
Kristen Borth: And ⁓ you know, a and haven't come down from that time period to go into situations like this.
Lorie: They do. Yeah. And I think since COVID, I I I'm pretty sure I I've read a lot of articles about this, that the violence toward healthcare workers has just exploded. and you know, I've yeah, I worked in health care, working health care, but I didn't necessarily run the risk of a patient hitting me or, you know, pulling a gun on me or stabbing me, like our nursing and and our
Kristen Borth: Increased. Yeah.
Lorie: clinical people are are seeing now. And ⁓ sometimes you have to wonder, does fear make you want to just kind of distance yourself from those patients? You know, I and maybe they don't get the care that they need because you're afraid. You know, that that's a possibility. Especially if it's somebody that's been violent or or someone that comes in and they're violent
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It totally. ⁓ Yeah.
Lorie: You know, w w what happens in those situations.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. Totally different topic. But we do see that a lot when you know you've got the 5150s that come in and maybe they are a little bit ⁓ out of control. And so providers tend to pull back because it's like, ⁓ you're blowing that out of proportion. ⁓ calm down because they have to de escalate the situation. And some of the time, you know, those kind of spiral out of control. So yeah, I I I truly I don't know. I'm ⁓
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: My heart goes out to the whole situation. And, you know, even even somewhat to this doctor that made a horrific mistake because now he's gonna live with that forever. And and ⁓ you know, gonna deal with that. But also, you know, the the staff and the parents and and Vincent himself. And ⁓ so yeah, I I just I I I think. There's so much to this that you can unpack and that you could you could look at it and read it from all different avenues and be like, ⁓ well, this was the hospital's fault. And it was. But there's just so much to it when it comes to
Lorie: It is, it is. And and like you said, it this is going to to be a continuous story over several months, ⁓ most likely. ⁓ but yeah, it it's going to be interesting to see how it happens. But I I do think that hospitals we are going to have to get to a point that we're not so closed off to the world and that we, you know, we defend
Kristen Borth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lorie: what needs to be defending, but we also accept responsibility for our failures.
Kristen Borth: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, as we wrap up, do you have any closing thoughts?
Lorie: So yes. No, other than I'm I'm excited to do the the podcast with Vicky, me, you and Vicki to talk about her story because I knew I knew that was gonna get you because I I didn't think you knew that. ⁓ and it just fit right in with this. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to do that, you know, but I guess my biggest thing, because I talk about this, is advocacy. Advocacy is so important for yourself or have somebody that can advocate for you.
Kristen Borth: Yes. No, I didn't know that. Yeah. That'll be fun.
Lorie: ⁓ to make sure that and if you you know, if if something like that ever happened again, I would like to think that the staff or the family would escalate it further than just that physician and and get others involved that can do something about it.
Kristen Borth: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And ⁓ you know, I'll just say that in closing, Vincent, little Vincent, you're in our hearts and our prayers and ⁓ you know, the whole family just hoping for the most miraculous outcome ever. So ⁓ that that just that would, you know, be the icing on the cake. And ⁓ so yeah, that wraps us up for today, Lori.
Lorie: Right. Wraps us up. All right, Kristen. We'll talk to you later. Bye bye.
Kristen Borth: All right. Sounds good. Bye.
Lorie: And I'm Lori Mills.
Kristen Borth: Lori, ⁓ we're gonna be talking about a really sad story today, but I wanna talk about it because I think there's some confusion on the patient side. And I think that ⁓ there's some support or some ideas that we could give for the hospital side. So ⁓ I know that you've heard this story, but for our listeners, I was reading and listening my news, and across the top.
Lorie: Yes.
Kristen Borth: Came toddler found dead, but pronounced alive in the morgue. And I was like, what? So I clicked on immediately, started reading the story. And a toddler, little Vincent, was ⁓ found in the pool. He was estimated to be in the pool for about five minutes. His parents rushed him to the hospital, and police were there, and police kept saying to the nurse and the doctor that they kept.
Lorie: Yeah.
Kristen Borth: Thinking that he was breathing or taking gasps of air. And ⁓ there's two components of this, these articles that I was reading that one nurse kept telling this doctor, I keep hearing him gasp. I think that he's breathing. And the doctor turns to the nurse and says, I went to medical school, I know how to do my job. Stop. And declares, like, pronounces him dead. So they send him down to the morgue.
Lorie: Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: And the medical examiner then ⁓ comes upon that, talk about an interesting moment as a medical examiner. That would be my nightmare. But ⁓ hears him gasping, sends him for an MRI, finds out that his ⁓ you know, his brain is still active, but that he has issues. And I'm going to pass it over to you right after I say the one sentence I was searching for the entire
Lorie: Yes.
Kristen Borth: time I was reading these articles was what caused the brain injury? Was it the water, the pool, or was it a malpractice type situation?
Lorie: So yeah, you and I have not really discussed this, but I will tell you, with them having a recorded statement of the provider saying what he did, that hospital's gonna have to write a check. There it regardless of where the brain damage comes from, if it come from the pool or if it come from the medical care, that statement in itself is guaranteed that family will get a settlement.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ my god. Yeah.
Lorie: you you cannot have that type of attitude and not expect it. I have I worked with a risk manager one time and she could disfuse almost any situation. So, you know, when something like that happened, she was like the first person they would put to go have a conversation with the patient's family or with the patient or whatever, anything that happened for a risk management standpoint. ⁓ but I also want to say
Kristen Borth: No.
Lorie: My thought on that is you have a provider who will not listen to educated staff who is in the room. So what did the staff do? Did they pursue it further? Did they go find another physician and tell them or find the chief medical officer and be like, this is what's going on? Or did nursing call the their DON and explain, we got this situation. I need somebody to come to the ER. somebody needs to to see this besides us. ⁓ you know that that in itself made me wonder what did the staff do? Now granted the doctor, I was like, I'm I'm kind of furious with him that he had that because that made me wonder, does he trust his staff that works with him? Does he trust the staff that's working in the ER with him? Another question is, is this a known trait of this provider?
Kristen Borth: Mm. Right. Mm-hmm.
Lorie: Is does he always blow off nursing staff or you know, belittle people that try to go against maybe what he said? ⁓ is it is that a tendency for him to do that? And you can bet if he has those tendencies and there's records of other things like that happening in the past, that he's definitely going to have to write a check himself, not only the hospital.
Kristen Borth: Definitely think, I definitely think that he should be in deep water. I mean, but then I have this whole thought, and obviously we understand components of of you know medical care, and that's why we talk about it, that's why we do this, but at the same time, I worked in an ER and in a nursing home, and I can tell you as parent.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: The stink that I would put up if I was hearing a police officer and a nurse or other, you know, medical professional say that they were, you know, they were hearing gasps, be like, what are you doing? Can you check this? Can you like I would be pushing the doctor as well? So it made me wonder on the patient side, do they know that they're empowered? Because we've been doing some crossover episodes where we're talking about, you know.
Lorie: Yep. Yes.
Kristen Borth: Patient questions, I wonder if they know that that's something that they can do as well. Do they feel empowered to do that?
Lorie: No, they don't. They don't realize that there are patient advocates that work in the facility. And usually they're going to be in your risk management department, but they're they're going to be patient advocates that you can call when you're having a problem ⁓ at the hospital and those advocates will go up and talk to the patient's family. They'll talk to the patient at the patient's, you know, where they can then speak. ⁓ and they will investigate. And then they'll bring that back. And it's a lot of times, you know, I've I've been in those meetings where cases were discussed afterwards. ⁓ you know, and it was brought back. And sometimes the risk manager would would say, We're wrong. We're wrong. and I've been in that situation, and no, this is not the story I'm gonna tell you, but this is another story. ⁓ I've been in that situation where I I had to report the ER.
Kristen Borth: I'm waiting.
Lorie: for just really reprehensible treatment that I got ⁓ as a patient. And I I I struggled with that because I'm always about protecting my docs if they're doing what they're supposed to do and all. but I I had to wrestle with that and I actually formally reported the hospital I worked at, their ER.
Kristen Borth: Wow.
Lorie: to risk management. And I had a sit down with the the chief ⁓ medical officer from the ER and the risk manager and myself. ⁓ and Sam was in there with me and we had we had a discussion about what we thought had happened and and the E the ER director at first was kind of belligerent. But then the risk manager looked at him and she she said she told him what was wrong with her when she came in the door.
Kristen Borth: Mm.
Lorie: They knew she already had her lab work done. Everybody knew what was wrong with her. And y'all let her lay there all day without giving her any insulin. And she went developed encephalopathy, got to where she couldn't talk. And so it's very important that we understand that patients have rights. And that was not my right just because I worked there. That was my right as a patient. I needed to advocate.
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: sometimes patients aren't in the position to advocate for themselves because they're too sick or they're they're unconscious. But you need or they're a child. You need someone there with you that can advocate for you as well. And and and make sure because let's face it, bad things happen everywhere. we're humans, there are mistakes that happen.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Lorie: And that's sad to say, and it's unfortunate that it does happen, but it happens. We are humans. But for a mistake to happen because someone intentionally ignored a situation is a whole nother issue.
Kristen Borth: Unfortunately. Yes. Yes. And I feel like the media in this specific situation, and and don't get me wrong, it's atrocious, but I feel like they are especially trying to activate that that patient patients, you know, get treated this way at hospitals all the time. This happens all the time at the hospitals. And maybe it's, you know, some of the articles that I picked, because I tried to choose from a variety of news sources to Get a really perspective on ⁓ you know, what they were saying. But I felt like a lot of them were very critical of hospital activities. And I I'm not saying that it's not warranted because in this situation and the trauma that those parents were probably going through that that kept them from maybe being as clear headed as maybe they would.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: like to think they would be or I would like to think I would be. But ⁓ it just like I I hope that somewhere we can find this balance of th this is not the hospital's end game with patients. And you know this is this is a unique experience that
Lorie: Yeah. No, no, by far no it's not.
Kristen Borth: Like you said, does happen more often than we would like it to and is unfortunate. But this is a unique experience of a certain situation, a certain provider, certain staff, even, because I know so many ⁓ nurses and I love them for this, but I know so many nurses that are not like, you know, sit back and and and wait because the doctor says to do this or doctor says this is what you should do. They are strong for a reason and I love them for it because I don't know that I would always be so upfront. So
Lorie: Yes. So and that that is a lot of it ⁓ at times is your your nurses have to be very strong because they have to they have to be able to advocate for their patients. I've had nurses advocate for me as a patient because I would come in so very sick. ⁓ one of the first times I went in, I was so very sick, they thought I was drunk.
Kristen Borth: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lorie: Or that I had been drinking and as because my blood sugar wasn't high at all, it was normal, but I was in DKA. So the physician, one of the things he asked me, he I mean, he was livid, he came in the room and he says, So when is the last time you've had a drink? And I was like, I had a glass of wine about three weeks ago. I mean, and I was being sincere. I that was. ⁓ but the nurse, she could never get him to put orders in. for some medic medicine and stuff. And so she she come in and she put sh I don't know what she did, but anyway, she got my medicine. She said, You've gotta have this and we're gonna get it And so sh she got me medicine. But that nurse advocated for me. And yeah. Mm.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. And I I mean I've seen them do that so many times. and especially it was interesting because in the nursing home, you didn't have providers rounding often. They they came in, you know, once a week, sometimes depending on the the provider. So you might have a provider there every single day, but it's a provider for a specific resident. And so I remember watching those nurses, you know.
Lorie: Right.
Kristen Borth: This is what's been happening the last five days. You need to do this, doctor. And the doctor's like, well, I don't see that happening. And they're like, but it's been happening every single day. Look at the chart. It's documented. And they advocate where, you know, patients, families can't all always be there to do that. But I I I do I have to get I have to give our nurses kudos because it they know their stuff and they're they're pushing for the betterment of patients too. But I think that can also.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.
Kristen Borth: That strongness from our nurses can come across like they're against patients as well. Cause I don't always come across warm and f fuzzy when you know you're you're trying to get things done and the nurses be or and the patient's feeling terrible and the nurse is just like, I gotta get this done. It's not always warm and fluff fluffy.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right. Fluffy, no, it's this not. And you know, you talked about pati people perceiving or patients perceiving bad care in facilities and things like that. You know, we have a lot of quality standards that we hospitals must follow. And y we may be hitting all the marks on those p quality scan standards, which are for good care, but your patient
Kristen Borth: We do.
Lorie: may perceive because they had to wait too long for for medication or that no one was able to come help them get up to go to the restroom, you know, s as soon as they buzzed and things like that. And there's a whole big thing about short staffing and all. So sometimes, and I'm not saying it that in this case at all, but sometimes when people perceive they're getting bad care, it's not really that they're getting bad care. They're just not getting the immediate attention. That they perceive they should be getting as a patient. I I think that's it. And I've been guilty of that too. I have. I've been guilty of of that. So I want to give you a statistic. I looked it up. How often have patients been pronounced dead and come back to life? It is actually.
Kristen Borth: Okay. ⁓ my. I feel like this is gonna be way higher than I think it should be.
Lorie: It no, it's actually very, very rare. But it yes, but there are eighty one up to eighty-one documented cases of this actually happening. And I don't know what that time frame was. One one study said it had happened 60 times in 40 years. So I mean it's you know, it's it's a big thing. But the name of it is Lazarus phenomenon. Yes, that's what they named it. Yes, Lazarus Phenomenon.
Kristen Borth: Really? Really? ⁓ I didn't know that.
Lorie: So now I'm gonna tell you a story. I'm gonna tell you something that you I don't know that you know this. So our cohort, Vicky, who works with us, her mother, and let me say this: I got permission to tell this story before I'm telling it. Okay. So Vicki's mother was very sick and in the hospital. Very, very, very sick. She'd been in the hospital for, I believe, weeks at this point. She coded.
Kristen Borth: Okay, perfect. Mm.
Lorie: She died. The doctor pronounced her. The doctor was in a conference room with the family, talking to them, telling them, you know, their mother had passed away, what had happened. Da da da da da. The nurse comes in and tells the doctor, this is several minutes later, she has a pulse. Yes. For real. And this just our very own Vicky. ⁓
Kristen Borth: Man. For real. Our very own Vicky. ⁓ my goodness.
Lorie: Then they rushed her mother to surgery and and and so I'm telling you this too because I asked Vicky, I said, would you be comfortable doing a podcast with Kristen and I to talk about this because it is such a rare phenomenon, but it does happen. And there were there was no malpractice discussion at all in the hospital with this because it it truly it happened just the way she was telling it. I mean they they worked on her, they pronounced her.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. You what?
Lorie: He was talking to the family and the nurse comes and gets him. She's alive. So then they took her to surgery, and I'm not sure what surgery she had, but she lived another few weeks. And I and I mean she was like talking and laughing and and enjoying her family's company. She was still in the hospital and she did eventually die of I want to say two weeks later, maybe. ⁓ but yes, that did happen. So, you know, it it's rare, but it happens.
Kristen Borth: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ my word. Well, that gives me so much hope for you know sweet little Vincent's family because they're talking about the it in the news, they're talking about how they don't know what kind of brain damage this could cause, but it's extensive.
Lorie: Right.
Kristen Borth: Therapy that's gonna need to happen. And you know, at that age, their brains are forming and and there's so many big things, but that gives me hope that they he can go on to live a full life. I mean, it's a miracle, anyways, that that he not that necessarily I'm I'm gonna say this, not necessarily that it was caught.
Lorie: Right. Right.
Kristen Borth: Because I do know the protocols that are in place because I have to check them every time. So not necessarily that it was caught, but that it was dismissed in some ways or put off in some ways and then brought back around and to show that you know he he is still here. I mean, talk about a roller coaster for his family, but that that would just put so much, it would fill my heart with so much hope.
Lorie: Easily.
Kristen Borth: And then hearing other stories like Vicky's mother where you know she's talking and this was after minutes. ⁓ wow. ⁓ my word. That's amazing.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It it is. So and and you know, I'll throw this out there. You and I both are profess professed Christians and we believe in miracles and things like that. And to me, that that that is a miracle. It's a miracle. And that, you know, and and we don't know, like you said, what kind of brain damage Vincent's going to have, but it could be that he recovers fully, hopefully. You know, that would be my wish. And that's what we could pray for. ⁓ so it's ⁓ it it's
Kristen Borth: Yes. Yes. It is. Mm. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Lorie: It's very interesting cases like this to to look at. You know, you've seen the the ⁓ books where what it was it, Seven Minutes in Heaven when the kid the little kid died. And ⁓ yeah, there's several several different ones that I've watched movies or read those books and it it and it's amazing ⁓ for that to be that way.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. Forgot about that book. Yeah yeah.
Lorie: ⁓ I I yeah, I I don't discount miracles at all. I I still believe that miracles can happen. And sometimes, you know, they come in and forms like this. And and I think it's hard for us to accept it nowadays that that could truly be a miracle from God. You know? ⁓ so I there's a lot to unpack in this, and I and I'm I'm looking forward to waiting on how this unfolds. ⁓
Kristen Borth: No. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I want to follow this. I want to see how it unfolds with the hospital setting and how it unfolds for ⁓ Vincent and his family as well. So let's take another detour and let's talk about the hospital side because as a hospital, you are managing so many different patients coming in, and when one scenario
Lorie: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Kristen Borth: One situation, one encounter, ⁓ launches you into the media, launches you into the news. It's chaos for the hospital just in general, but it has to still underlying be business as normal because you are still treating patients while this you know media storm is happening. So, from your opinion, what do you think hospitals
Lorie: Right. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: Either do really well or should do really well. And where do you think they they could use some, you know, good support?
Lorie: Well, I think part of the problem is is the patient or the the patient's representatives, they can say anything they want to say and it's perceived as that's the way it is. But because of HIPAA and other compliance and other things, hospitals can't come out and tell you a lot of times really what happened because they're bound by these rules and regulations. And so it's hard for them other than to come out and say, We did everything we could, our staff performed appropriately, ⁓ you know the patient We don't know what happened. That they can't really give any details. They can just come out and say, and I've been in that situation to where patients have gotten on Facebook and wrote either wrote really disparaging ⁓ posts about providers where I worked or providers that I knew, or they've got on and done Facebook Live and and would be complaining about, you know, what happened at the hospital and this, that, and the other. And and I think sometimes myself, I really want to get on there and I want to comment back and say, well, this is why this is happening. This is why it took two weeks to get your CT ⁓ prior authorized and you couldn't you had to have it in two weeks is because of your insurance company. We want to get on there and tell those things. And we we really can't. one of my clients is a small rural facility and people are always Talking about the bad things that happen at the the little hospital. ⁓ and I always want to tell them, you know, guys, bad things happen at every hospital. But, but you just hear about it more in a small town and a small hospital than you do in the big hospitals. ⁓ the other thing is you
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: Like I said, patients just perceive sometimes that things are bad care. When it's not really bad care, it just takes a long takes longer than the patient thinks it should. ⁓ I I've I've wanted to write a letter to the editor at this facility I'm at now because this is my heart. I've I've been at this facility, I've worked there for years and years, ⁓ back in the early two thousands. And I wanted to write a letter to the editor and just say, Okay, yeah, you you fuss about your hospital, but where else are you gonna go? Your next closest hospital is 30 miles away in one direction, 55 miles in another direction, and 82 miles in another direction. You know, and there are countless lives that have been saved at this royal hospital. I can I mean there's some stories, ⁓ my gosh, amazing stories.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right.
Lorie: And these patients have been saved, and nobody really talks about that. Nobody gets on Facebook a lot of times and promotes the great things that have happened to them at this hospital. It's always the bad things. ⁓ you know, recently someone had made a post on Facebook about some things that had happened there and they had to have a full-blown investigation. And when they got down to the bottom of the investigation,
Kristen Borth: Right. Yeah.
Lorie: What was portrayed on Facebook is not actually what happened. And so, yeah.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. I do think you that that that that all in of itself it points me to where I think that a lot of hospitals should invest a little bit more than they do. ⁓ and I understand, you know, money's tight, it's hard, but I do think that hospitals need to do a better job at being their own social media advocate.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: So you can have a Facebook page or an Instagram page or whatever, you can have those. But if you are not promoting of the improvements that you're doing, these don't even have to be the compliance, you know, talking about the hot topics that may be coming out in your hospital. If you are talking about what you're doing to be better for your community or serve your community, I feel like that goes a long way.
Lorie: Right. Mm-hmm.
Kristen Borth: Not to stop, you know, the attacks, but to showcase that you're putting the best foot forward. And I do feel like most hospitals are doing that. You know, during COVID, this became a really big thing. A whole book was written by a nurse that said that, you know, hospitals were declaring patients were were deceased.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yes. Right.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ with COVID when it wasn't COVID, and they were letting them die because of COVID, and there was all this stuff. And so I feel like some of that and what we've learned from that, which I don't know that experience, so I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I feel like some of that we should learn from and push forward. They're like, okay, well, how will we combat this? Let's let's put in some time now to get some social media because that's how a ton of people get their news now. And
Lorie: Yes.
Kristen Borth: Let's put in the time now so that we can do better at showing our community what we're trying to improve, what we're trying to do for them.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, you're talking about during COVID and at the facility I was at during COVID. There was a, I believe a journalist from Arizona. I know that's kind of a coincidence, but it was from somewhere out west called our ICU medical director because there was a patient
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: And that patient's family had been putting stuff out on social media about the hospital wouldn't do this. They were wanting the hospital to give the patient ivermectin and all this kind of stuff. And the the patient they did the hospital finally, they just they did everything they could do. I and I wanna say they even used ivermectin. ⁓ but the patient died anyway.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ Mm.
Lorie: And it was just one of those things that COVID was just something we didn't know anything about, you know. And and I saw physicians and nurses all during that time because I worked in a hospital during COVID. And and we they pulled non-clinical staff to go work in the hospital, ⁓ like doing temperatures at the doors, working in the nurses stations and things like that. ⁓ and I providers were so just downtrodden because
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lorie: They were doing everything they knew to do and and doing other things that they never thought they would do, trying to save people's lives. And then they have these reporters from, you know, out west. We even had one physician who was followed home by patients' family. Like, yeah. I mean, it we had some physicians that had to be escorted out of our it was mostly our critical care physicians, had to be escorted to their cars after they were
Kristen Borth: Right. Really? ⁓
Lorie: ⁓ getting off work because there had been death threats and all kind of threats made against them because, you know, you couldn't you couldn't go see your family member because of COVID and it and I think we just kinda all just got so bundled up in the the anxiety of all of it that we let our humanistic side go. And I don't know that we've gathered all that back yet.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Lorie: But like you said, yes we've got to figure out for hospitals to promote the good things that they do. Yeah, bad things happen. But how do we promote the good things they do? I also do think that we sh healthcare facilities should be more accepting of responsibility when it is their fault.
Kristen Borth: I agree. I agree. Mm-hmm.
Lorie: Yeah, we screwed up. We we we screwed up. And yes, it's gonna cost you when you do that. But ⁓ the risk manager I was talking about earlier, she she said that it was easier to talk to a family if you admitted what what happened was your fault and wrong, and they were less likely to sue than if you adamantly denied it.
Kristen Borth: Yeah.
Lorie: Knowing that you had some fault in it, if you adamantly denied it, the patients were more likely to sue ⁓ than not.
Kristen Borth: Which totally makes sense to me because I definitely trust a facility or an organization more that admits that something is wrong and it was their fault and they're gonna fix it. I immediately think, ⁓ that that organization, which may sound weird, but that organization's more self-aware. They're aware that they're not, they're not perfect. They're not trying to put on, you know, this showcase of, ⁓ everything is great. Everything is perfect.
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kristen Borth: And and so I immediately trust them just a little bit more. And I think it is hard for hospitals to do that because so much in the hospital is life or death. You know. And it's I mean, I I've seen I've seen family members, I've seen my docs, ⁓ you know, crumble after a situation.
Lorie: Right.
Kristen Borth: ⁓ with a patient and and them them reacting in a very human way because they were trying everything that they could. The patient still ⁓ you know, coded, the patient still wa ⁓ died in the end, and they tried everything. And it's the patients don't always see that. And I think COVID turned the theory on a head where you know you're you're supposed to go to the ER with somebody all the time, never show up by yourself. You know?
Lorie: Right. Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: And that was a whole thing. And so I think that's partially why patients were really frustrated. It's like, well, you've been telling me for decades, don't go to the ER by myself. And now I'm supposed to leave them here to just be watched by you in this crisis. Like I I I get I get the frustration. That was such a high stress time. But it's almost like it's almost like some of our docs have PTSD.
Lorie: Right. It was.
Kristen Borth: And ⁓ you know, a and haven't come down from that time period to go into situations like this.
Lorie: They do. Yeah. And I think since COVID, I I I'm pretty sure I I've read a lot of articles about this, that the violence toward healthcare workers has just exploded. and you know, I've yeah, I worked in health care, working health care, but I didn't necessarily run the risk of a patient hitting me or, you know, pulling a gun on me or stabbing me, like our nursing and and our
Kristen Borth: Increased. Yeah.
Lorie: clinical people are are seeing now. And ⁓ sometimes you have to wonder, does fear make you want to just kind of distance yourself from those patients? You know, I and maybe they don't get the care that they need because you're afraid. You know, that that's a possibility. Especially if it's somebody that's been violent or or someone that comes in and they're violent
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It totally. ⁓ Yeah.
Lorie: You know, w w what happens in those situations.
Kristen Borth: Yeah. Yeah. Totally different topic. But we do see that a lot when you know you've got the 5150s that come in and maybe they are a little bit ⁓ out of control. And so providers tend to pull back because it's like, ⁓ you're blowing that out of proportion. ⁓ calm down because they have to de escalate the situation. And some of the time, you know, those kind of spiral out of control. So yeah, I I I truly I don't know. I'm ⁓
Lorie: Mm-hmm. Right.
Kristen Borth: My heart goes out to the whole situation. And, you know, even even somewhat to this doctor that made a horrific mistake because now he's gonna live with that forever. And and ⁓ you know, gonna deal with that. But also, you know, the the staff and the parents and and Vincent himself. And ⁓ so yeah, I I just I I I think. There's so much to this that you can unpack and that you could you could look at it and read it from all different avenues and be like, ⁓ well, this was the hospital's fault. And it was. But there's just so much to it when it comes to
Lorie: It is, it is. And and like you said, it this is going to to be a continuous story over several months, ⁓ most likely. ⁓ but yeah, it it's going to be interesting to see how it happens. But I I do think that hospitals we are going to have to get to a point that we're not so closed off to the world and that we, you know, we defend
Kristen Borth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lorie: what needs to be defending, but we also accept responsibility for our failures.
Kristen Borth: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, as we wrap up, do you have any closing thoughts?
Lorie: So yes. No, other than I'm I'm excited to do the the podcast with Vicky, me, you and Vicki to talk about her story because I knew I knew that was gonna get you because I I didn't think you knew that. ⁓ and it just fit right in with this. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to do that, you know, but I guess my biggest thing, because I talk about this, is advocacy. Advocacy is so important for yourself or have somebody that can advocate for you.
Kristen Borth: Yes. No, I didn't know that. Yeah. That'll be fun.
Lorie: ⁓ to make sure that and if you you know, if if something like that ever happened again, I would like to think that the staff or the family would escalate it further than just that physician and and get others involved that can do something about it.
Kristen Borth: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And ⁓ you know, I'll just say that in closing, Vincent, little Vincent, you're in our hearts and our prayers and ⁓ you know, the whole family just hoping for the most miraculous outcome ever. So ⁓ that that just that would, you know, be the icing on the cake. And ⁓ so yeah, that wraps us up for today, Lori.
Lorie: Right. Wraps us up. All right, Kristen. We'll talk to you later. Bye bye.
Kristen Borth: All right. Sounds good. Bye.
