Why Men Men Need the Lover—and Women Need the Warrior

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Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips.
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We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith.
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Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning.
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I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist.
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I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being.
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Our focus here is knowledge and healing.
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Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever.
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There is hope.
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Now, let's get going.
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Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby.
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And I am so excited.
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This is always such a delight.
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It's such a delight for me to talk to this individual.
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He is my first return guest, also.
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So I'm really stoked about that.
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Yeah.
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I'm so honored.
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Yeah.
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So you're my first return.
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But for those who don't know him, you need to know him.
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His name is Sam Jolman.
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He is a licensed professional counselor.
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He's a trauma therapist with more than 20 years of experience specializing in men's issues and sexual trauma recovery.
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Being a therapist has given him a front row seat to hear hundreds of men and women share their stories.
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His writing flows out of this unique opportunity to help people know and heal their stories and to find greater sexual wholeness and aliveness.
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He received his master's in counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and was further trained in narrative-focused trauma care.
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Y'all all know how much I love that here, through the Allender Center at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology.
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Sam lives in Colorado with his wife and three sons, and together they enjoy exploring the best camping spots, which y'all know why Sam and I vibe, right?
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Like you're you're now getting the picture.
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He loves to do it in his uh pop-up camper, which is such an awesome vibe.
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Sam goes to therapy, loves fly fishing, and can be found trying to catch his breath on the floor of his local CrossFit gym, which I that is one thing we don't share because I would be deceased.
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I often feel like I'm dying as well.
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So um, yes, it is it is my uh my resiliency training.
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It's where I face hard things repeatedly come to the end of myself.
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I think that's amazing.
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For me, that's yoga because like I'm not gonna be a flip a tire, do a burpee kind of girl.
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That's not my vibe.
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But for me, yoga can be really challenging.
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There are a lot of emotional things that are held in the body.
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So for me, that is where I tend to work all of that stuff out and catch my breath in a different way.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And I, you know, full disclaimer, I am not the 20-year-old ripping his shirt off.
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Uh, you know, before the workout, um, I'm I actually get to do it now with my 15-year-old son.
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And so it is phenomenal to just go come to the end of myself a few times a week and fist bump my 15-year-old son.
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So yeah, it's pure joy.
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That is such a precious time.
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Like, you know, they say so much that the days are long and the years are short.
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And to be able to do something like that that brings you both to the end of yourselves in a safe, controlled way is super beautiful.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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And he gets up at 5:30 in the morning with me and never complains and loves it and um gets all the fist bumps from the coaches, and he's already beating me in certain things, and I'm sure more to come.
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So it is, it is all joy for us to both get initiated uh by our father, uh, in our bodies at least.
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And yeah, it's been good.
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I love that.
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That's so good.
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So you wrote a Substack not that long ago.
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I want to say it was like maybe a month or two months ago, um just on the warrior and on it, you know, in your book.
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So for those who don't know, Sam's book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, is one of my favorite books of all time.
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I recommend it to all of my male clients.
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I recommend it to a lot of my female clients.
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I adore it.
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And so it you really lean in that book into the lover and understanding men's sexuality in a different way than we were taught in, you know, or not taught at all in a lot of cases.
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And it is such a beautiful book.
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And in this particular substack, you were talking about the juxtaposition of the warrior and the lover.
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So let's talk about that a little bit.
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Maybe catch our listeners up on what that substack is, which they should totally be following you.
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They should absolutely be subscribed.
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Um, so tell us about that substack.
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Yeah, you know, I was trying to tease out how the dominant story for men around their sexuality has been, you know, sexuality lives in the in the kind of the category of war or and requires kind of the warrior within you, right?
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I, you know, I can't count, you know, it's how many times I've been advertised a men's conference, right?
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And it's all about fighting the battle and being the warrior, right?
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And and it seems, right, even books like Every Man's Battle, that um, you know, sexuality lives in the category of the warrior for kind of Christian men, right?
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That's where we need to fight it.
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That's where we we need the warrior in our sexuality.
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And I was just writing about how I think that sets us up, um, both men and women, um, in marriages and beyond, to see sexuality as something both to be afraid of, but also something that um, you know, lives in a battlefield, right?
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That a man needs a certain amount of sex, right?
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That's a common trope.
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Man certainly needs a certain amount of sex to fight lust.
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And, you know, and it's a wife's job to make sure he's being fulfilled so he doesn't turn to pornography, which research says actually doesn't help, right?
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Frequency of sex does not reduce um um your use of pornography um because it's in a different category, right?
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It's a different part of who you are, but we've been taught that that's what's needed, right?
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Um, and for men, right, you need to be suspicious of everything that moves in you.
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It's probably the beginnings of lust, um, and need to be really guarding your heart.
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And I do believe we are called to fight lust.
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That is absolutely true.
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We're called to fight objectification.
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So I'm not I'm not minimizing that call within the Bible, but what I'm saying is we've we've lost touch with these other visions of sexuality, male sexuality, female sexuality within the Bible, right?
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Primarily Song of Songs, Adam, which is the picture of the lover.
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And so we've we've taken, we need to take sexuality.
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My point was we need to take sexuality out of the warrior uh category and put it in the lover category, that your sexuality is meant to be an overflow of the lover within you, which is not a conversation I think we're having in the church, um, at you know, men's conferences.
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I have not seen a lover conference for men ever, right?
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It's always the warrior conference.
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Um, and I think there's, you know, there's inherent problems with the category of the war warrior in general in these um conferences, but also just a deep absence about the sensual, relational, emotional side of you as a man, the part of you that loves sensuality, but also loves comfort and attachment and vulnerability, right?
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All these other things that are actually a huge part of your sexuality thriving.
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So I'm in that article saying we need to move it out of the warrior.
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Your sexuality doesn't need more warrior, most likely.
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What it needs is more lover.
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Yes, yeah, and and I think that is like as a woman to hear that, right?
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My whole self goes, yes, please, because I'm not a conquest.
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I'm not something to be one, right?
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I'm someone to be connected with, I'm someone to be intimate with, and outside of just the realm of sexuality, but in my whole person, right?
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Yes.
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And I'm not supposed to be the only lover.
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But I think that weight gets put on women so often is like, well, you have to be demure and tender and quiet and all of these things.
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And so the parts of us that are warrior that are created in the image and likeness of God get stamped out.
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And and I don't think we should be warriors in the bedroom either, frankly.
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Like, but it it's like this total distortion to me of what God designed as good and beautiful between a man and a woman.
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Yes.
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Yes, well said, right?
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Like another trope that we've heard, right, is well, sex is for men and romance is for women.
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Um, and right, and so, you know, and and there's jokes that have, you know, like the wedding day, the wedding ceremony is for the woman, the wedding night is for the man.
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And all of that is hogwash.
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It is false lies about um these horrible um caricatures of gender, that men only want sex, right?
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And that women only want romance.
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They want the emotional, relational side.
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And so, guys, you know, make sure you, you know, um plan a date night or at least buy flowers and chocolate on Valentine's Day.
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Um, and you know, but you really don't need it yourself.
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And it's so false.
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And it sets men up to believe that if they long for emotional connection, which by the way, men and women are equally capable of attachment.
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There is no difference in a man's capacity for full emotional expression.
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I think it's like seven months in the womb.
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At seven months in the womb, you have full capacity for all emotion, both boys and girls.
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So, men and women, you are equally capable of emotional expression, emotional connection, and attachment, right?
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There's no difference between men and women there.
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As well, women are just as sexually wired as a man.
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They're not more complicated, right?
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Than a woman than a man.
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Um, sexually, it's not that they want sex less inherently or are less sexual.
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They're equally wired.
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Eight to ten thousand nerve endings in your genitalia, literally wired neurologically.
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Um and so we set both men up to believe that they aren't emotional and women up to believe they aren't sexual, and both are false.
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So I would say, you know, take Song of Songs, right?
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As a picture of the equality of that.
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Both of them love sex, but they also deeply love each other and are writing poetry to each other, both the man and the woman.
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It's not just one voice here.
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So I think we've just lost um that picture and that important picture of masculinity and femininity um in a dance that you are equally sexual and you are equal equally capable of emotional attachment and connection, and we need to recover that for us both.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And it's so minimizing to both men and women to look at it the way that we often have in church.
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You know, I think as a woman, like it has been so hard to embrace feminine sexuality, like healthy feminine sexuality, because if you express desire and longing and things like that, you're considered forward or slutty or other things, right?
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And it's like, but I can keep that with it's it's almost like, especially as a single woman in the church, which is what I am, if you express any desire for a physical connection one day, it's oh, you're gonna take my husband.
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And it's like, no, because it can operate within the bounds of scripture, people.
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What in the world?
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You know, and so it's just like you can't even say, I have a desire for this.
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And men and women are not taught to talk about desire.
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They're not taught to talk about that in terms of relationship as a whole, not just sexually, you know, but as like, hey, I desire this for us.
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I desire this kind of relationship, I desire this kind of physical contact in these places and that sort of thing.
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Like, we're just not taught that.
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And so especially if a woman starts talking about like, I desire this, you know, it, you know, and she's married and like, hey, I desire to try this or to connect with you in this way or whatever, it it's like, wait, is there a problem?
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You know, or if she has a higher sex drive than her husband, like then he thinks he's broken because of the way we've been taught.
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And none of that is true.
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Right.
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Right.
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It's so true that um, you know, the darkness of a woman, as you named well, right?
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That you're um scandalous or slutty if you have sexual desire and you you actually desire that physical connection of sex.
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Um, equally as well for a man if you desire emotional connection, right?
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It's like turn in your man card, right?
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Because you're supposed to just want sex.
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You're not supposed to want the emotional romantic stuff.
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Um, you know, according to and so you're it it's emasculating if you confess that.
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And right, and I have been in my office that will say things like, I know I'm supposed to just always want sex.
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Um, I had a man say to me, you know, my wife has been pursuing me sexually and I just need a date time.
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I'm just looking for romance.
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And, you know, he said, I know I'm like it's I I'm actually more like the woman in the relationship, right?
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Why did he need to say that?
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Yeah, it so sets us up to believe that we're violating or betraying something when actually both are very true um in the genders.
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Yeah.
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I think it's interesting that we have so leaned into battle language in the bedroom, but not in the other places it's supposed to live, right?
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Because there is battle language, there is military language in scripture, but it's against the enemy, right?
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It's it's that.
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And and women are equally told to avail themselves of the, you know, the armor of God in Ephesians, for example, right?
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That's not gendered.
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Yes.
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That's that's like both of us need to put on the armor of God, right?
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And and war against the evil one, not against each other, not in the bedroom, not in all these other places.
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And I think like we have so taken the wholeness of humankind out of some of these things.
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I know you and I had talked, you you do this wonderful Zoom for your Substack subscribers.
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And we had talked about that.
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That like I want to see women own more of their warrior as a whole, as a whole person, and men own more of their lover as a whole person.
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And and what a beautiful gift it would be if we understood that the battlefield isn't our, like, it isn't our sexual relationships, but is against the enemy, is against, you know, sin, is against all of these other things, and that we were battle partners, right?
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Like I often tell guys when I'm working with them that like, especially when we're working on like gender stuff, you know, like the the Ezre that a woman is called, it's your battle partner, right?
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Like God is saying he gave you Xena warrior princess.
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Like this is it, right?
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Yeah, and so like I see women not owning that because we're told that we're supposed to be quiet, we're supposed to be submissive, we're supposed to be the lovers, we're the nurturers.
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And it's like, but did I need to be nurtured too?
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Yeah.
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Right.
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How is that gonna happen?
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Right, right.
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And men need to be fought for just as equally, right?
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I think of all the times like I need my wife to fight for me in prayer or just relationally to help me battle my own voices of shame, right?
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How many times I need to just open up to her, right?
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It's all the time.
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It's you know, on the regular, weekly at least, that I need to talk to her and say, hey, can you help me see right?
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Right.
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And her being able to speak a voice of truth to me and you know, and knowing from our years together, it's so important that you as a man can receive the the warrior in your wife as well, that she's fighting for you.
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Um, in that conversation as well, you know, I uh a place I saw this need um for women was in an article I had read on some research around women and uh women experiencing anything from sexual trauma, sexual violence, to kind of daily cat calls, right?
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Um, that women suffer.
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And the the this research was on is there anything that makes a difference in how a woman presents herself, right?
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And again, we need to be careful.
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This is not this is not blaming anyone for their harm.
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It is always 100% squarely the fault of the violator, period, right?
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Making a choice to violate.
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But the point is, again, is there something that these they actually interviewed, I think it was men who were guilty, who were incarcerated for sexual violence of some sort against women.
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And what these men said was seeing a woman's rage at their actions actually made a difference.
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So when women got angry and and verbally angry at what they were doing, right, they actually said that made them back away because it was it was startling for them to to to and it was unpredictable.
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Um, and it made me think, oh my goodness, there's the blessing of the warrior and a woman that you need to be able to have access to your rage and your anger, even your anger at being sexualized by a man.
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Um, and that that can actually uh actually impacted these men that were incarcerated to say, don't mess with her.
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She has access to her rage.
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And again, this is in no way blaming anyone for their violation.
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It's not saying that made a hundred percent of the difference.
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We're simply saying it mattered to these men and they could they could talk about it.
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Um, so again, the blessing of the warrior and a woman is important.
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Um and you know, when it comes to the warrior and men, I um I I almost viscerally cringe myself because it's such a misused word right now in our culture.
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The idea of men becoming warriors, right, is I it it it almost comes across as baptizing violence or baptizing male aggression, right?
00:19:56.100 --> 00:19:58.100
Like, well, I'm a warrior, right?
00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:06.420
And uh, you know, I've heard men justify things um in the really, really bad things in the name of being, well, I'm a warrior, right?
00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:11.539
And what they really mean is just you're you're actually just um aggressive.
00:20:11.860 --> 00:20:22.660
Um, you know, the idea of being a warrior is not one of just sort of beating your chest and yelling really loud and raging and running into a field, right, in battle.
00:20:22.900 --> 00:20:25.539
Um, that's actually just being a savage, right?
00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:33.380
Just a warrior is somebody who has extreme restraint on behalf of a cause.
00:20:33.860 --> 00:20:36.980
So, you know, this idea of being a warrior as a man.
00:20:37.220 --> 00:20:41.460
Um I you know, is it even helpful language now?
00:20:41.620 --> 00:20:44.660
I I think there's something to keep.
00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:48.180
I think the Bible used this language.
00:20:48.340 --> 00:20:51.700
I think it had no category for what we have for it now.
00:20:51.940 --> 00:21:01.460
Um and there's problems in the church around that language and masculine um bravado or you know domination.
00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:04.180
Um, none of that is a genuine warrior.
00:21:04.340 --> 00:21:07.779
A warrior is always somebody who served on behalf of a cause.
00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:20.019
Um in a book I read, you know, they said the warrior's motto is today, this comes from a Native American expression, today is a good day to die.
00:21:20.900 --> 00:21:27.860
In other words, it was an awakening to I will give my life on behalf of a greater good.
00:21:28.340 --> 00:21:34.340
Not my own good, not my own desires, but on behalf of a greater good, a greater cause.
00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:40.660
And in fact, right, if my own aggression shows up, I'm gonna back away.
00:21:40.900 --> 00:23:17.980
And I need to check myself so that I can step back into being a warrior.
00:23:18.139 --> 00:23:24.859
That's what it meant to have a warrior mindset was I'm serving a greater cause, not my own.
00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:28.379
And I'm willing to even give my life for that greater cause.
00:23:28.539 --> 00:23:30.299
We don't have that, right?
00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:49.659
We think of warrior as like, um, in masculine culture, I think as like, you know, puffing yourself up and beating your chest, and like it's all about me and my ego, not sacrificing on behalf of the people I love or the God I love, right?
00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:51.420
Or the cause that I love.
00:23:51.659 --> 00:23:53.819
Um, that's the warrior.
00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:55.659
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:55.819 --> 00:24:04.460
And I, you know, as you say that, I think of two beautiful examples of men in my life that have shown me their warrior, two good buddies of mine, good male friends.
00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:12.059
You know, one, um, there was a security guard kind of nosing around my van being all creepy like, and uh we were walking out of an event together.
00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:19.339
And he like, without even asking if I needed that, walked over to my van with me and I was like, what is that guy doing?
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.579
Um, and he let me take the lead on like going, what are you doing?
00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:23.980
Right.
00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:27.980
So he didn't diminish my warrior, which needed to be in place in that moment.
00:24:28.139 --> 00:24:31.099
Um, and I wasn't told I was aggressive either, which is interesting.
00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:36.460
Cause sometimes I've had men say, you know, when I show some of my own strength, like, oh, well, that was very aggressive.
00:24:36.619 --> 00:24:38.299
Like, no, that's called assertive, my brother.
00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:39.579
Like, what are we doing?
00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:49.579
Um, but like, you know, he was there with me and I could feel from him that if he needed to, he would step in and I would be cared for.
00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:51.099
Like it wasn't even a question.
00:24:51.180 --> 00:24:53.500
Like I could feel it coming off of him toward me.
00:24:53.579 --> 00:24:54.859
And it was like, oh, wow.
00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:55.339
Okay.
00:24:55.500 --> 00:25:01.740
And I just remember thinking, I feel very safe here in this place, and also not diminished.
00:25:01.819 --> 00:25:08.299
Like I knew that I was being cared well for, but I also wasn't being minimized, which was incredibly beautiful.
00:25:08.619 --> 00:25:14.539
And then the other is a friend of mine who heard some of a sexual assault story that I had.
00:25:14.779 --> 00:25:22.539
And he said to me, if I was your father, because my dad did not step up to the plate, unfortunately, in that situation to help me when I disclosed it to my parents.
00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:26.460
Um, he said, if I was your father, I'd be sitting in jail because I would have killed that person.
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:28.299
And I just remember being like, wait, what?
00:25:28.379 --> 00:25:29.259
People feel this way?
00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:31.339
Wait, what do you mean you would have protected me?
00:25:31.420 --> 00:25:32.460
I what?
00:25:32.859 --> 00:25:39.180
And and and he said it with such a matter-of-fact statement that no, I would that would not have been okay.
00:25:39.339 --> 00:25:40.220
I would have cared for you.
00:25:40.299 --> 00:25:42.139
It would have not gone well for the other human.
00:25:42.460 --> 00:25:44.379
Was like, oh my gosh.
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:45.740
Like, wow.
00:25:45.980 --> 00:25:49.099
And I didn't need either man to lift a finger.
00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:50.539
I needed to know that they could.
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:51.819
That's it.
00:25:52.139 --> 00:25:56.379
You know, and that, and that my autonomy was not sacrificed in that place.
00:25:56.619 --> 00:26:01.819
So I wasn't minimized, but also I knew that they were with me in battle.
00:26:02.139 --> 00:26:06.779
And that is a glorious way of the warrior showing up.
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:07.500
Yes.
00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:08.220
Yep.
00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:09.579
That's amazing.
00:26:09.740 --> 00:26:10.700
That's so good.
00:26:10.940 --> 00:26:17.339
Yeah, you know, when I think about, you know, times that I've experienced a woman warrior, right?
00:26:17.500 --> 00:26:20.859
I think of um, we had a supervisor in my grad program.
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:27.579
Her name was Lottie, Lottie Hillard, and she um since passed on to glory.
00:26:27.740 --> 00:26:30.859
Um, but we called her the Velvet Hammer.
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:34.379
She was um just a spitfire of a woman.
00:26:34.460 --> 00:26:40.299
And it always um she um supervised me for a time after grad school.
00:26:40.379 --> 00:26:47.980
And then out of that, because all of your stuff shows up when you're doing your counseling, we transitioned actually to her being my therapist for a time.
00:26:48.139 --> 00:26:53.180
And I just remember it always felt like she she came for me.
00:26:53.500 --> 00:27:02.539
Um, you know, I would talk to my wife about it, and she said, you know, it sounds like she comes for you like she has a machete hacking through a jungle, right?
00:27:02.619 --> 00:27:05.019
Like she is gonna get you, she's gonna find you.
00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:09.899
And there was this energy of love, but also a kind of ferocity, right?
00:27:10.059 --> 00:27:20.859
She would confront me with, you know, um, you know, just point-blank confrontation when I was out of line, but she would just as fiercely fight the voices of my shame.
00:27:21.259 --> 00:27:27.180
And and it was the it was one of the most powerful times of feeling loved with strength, right?
00:27:27.339 --> 00:27:36.379
It wasn't simply just tender, but it was it had a kind of, dare we say, aggression or you know, an assertiveness to it.
00:27:36.460 --> 00:27:39.099
Like she was going to call out the voices of shame.
00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:46.299
I will never forget how loved I felt in the wake of her strength and her warrior heart.
00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:48.139
Uh it matters.
00:27:48.379 --> 00:27:49.899
It matters greatly.
00:27:50.379 --> 00:27:50.940
It does.
00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:59.180
And when we minimize the lover or the warrior, we are minimizing a part of ourselves that God has rightly given us, right?
00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:07.980
Because if we are made in the image and likeness of God, and these are things that we see in how we are created, then these are things that need to play out.
00:28:08.059 --> 00:28:15.339
They need space, they need expression in appropriate ways so that we are walking in the fullness of who we are.
00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:21.019
And then we are in beautiful ways submitting one to another, just like the Bible talks about, right?
00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:25.180
Like we submit first to God, then to one another in beautiful ways.
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:28.940
And it's submission is not subjugation.
00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:38.539
Those are not the same word, because I know the S-word, especially with my my audience here on Hey Tabby, is you know, submission has been weaponized, which is just horrific, right?
00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:50.220
But when we are looking for everyone to flourish, and I think oftentimes about how I conceptualize power with the guys that I work with in particular, is power with or power under, right?
00:28:50.379 --> 00:28:57.500
And the power under isn't that you are a doormat, it is that you are pushing the other up into the flourishing that God has for them, right?
00:28:57.579 --> 00:29:00.779
The Gottmans would call it making life dreams come true, right?
00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:03.099
Where we are for each other's dreams.
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:05.099
Yeah, that's so good.
00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:05.500
Right.
00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:08.619
You know, I think about, you know, the other day we were out.
00:29:08.700 --> 00:29:13.579
I was out with my sons, and I felt this call in that it was hot.
00:29:13.659 --> 00:29:18.619
It was like 95 here in Colorado, and my son was at a cross-country meet.
00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:21.019
Um, and he ran out of water.
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:24.220
And which is a big deal when you're a runner, right?
00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:27.740
Uh and so I I just knew it was a moment.
00:29:27.899 --> 00:29:29.259
Here's my water.
00:29:29.500 --> 00:29:29.819
Right.
00:29:29.899 --> 00:29:31.019
Without thought, right?
00:29:31.099 --> 00:29:35.819
I just I saw the moment of like, this is what it means for me to love my son.
00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:37.980
This is what it means for me to sacrifice.
00:29:38.139 --> 00:29:40.539
This is my today is a good day to die.
00:29:40.700 --> 00:29:44.059
Now, I'm not, I wasn't literally gonna die of thirst in that moment.
00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:48.859
I actually wasn't running, I was in the shade, but I knew he needed my bottle of water.
00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:51.500
And so without thought, here, take mine.
00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:53.500
Um, because he needed it, right?
00:29:53.579 --> 00:30:01.819
It's moments like that that I think actually help us um grow and mature as men, right?
00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:05.500
It's that sacrifice, it's not the chest beating.
00:30:05.740 --> 00:30:16.779
Um, you know, if the men's retreat is about trying to pep rally you into some, you know, physical, you know, chest beating, it's not doing its job.
00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:18.299
That's not the warrior.
00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:21.500
Um, a warrior is one of restraint and self-sacrifice.
00:30:21.659 --> 00:30:22.619
As you've said, right?
00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:24.059
The the strength under.
00:30:24.139 --> 00:30:25.339
I love that picture.
00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:27.740
Um, that's really powerful.
00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:33.420
I just think, you know, it I always think about when you talk about retreats, I think about the men's and women's retreats.
00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:36.779
I've heard about the women's retreats that I've been at and whatnot.
00:30:36.940 --> 00:30:40.059
And when I helped lead women's ministry, our retreats were not like this.
00:30:40.139 --> 00:30:44.379
We we were very much like, let's get into the word, let's like do this wrestle here, right?
00:30:44.619 --> 00:30:46.059
Like when we did fun stuff.
00:30:46.220 --> 00:31:01.259
But like in as a general whole in Western Christendom, what we see is the guys go to a camp and they get to shoot arrows and paddle canoes and all of this other stuff and do like manly things and build fires and women have to go craft.
00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:05.420
And I'm like, no, I don't want to craft.
00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:08.139
Like I like to craft, but like that's not what I want to do.
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:09.980
I don't want to have a women's tea.
00:31:10.139 --> 00:31:14.059
I would love to have a women's archery, you know, event at a retreat.
00:31:14.139 --> 00:31:15.259
Like, why don't we get to do that?
00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:16.619
Why do the guys get to do that?
00:31:16.779 --> 00:31:20.059
Why do the guys, you know, go like, oh, we're gonna give them a sword?
00:31:20.139 --> 00:31:20.700
That's great.
00:31:20.779 --> 00:31:21.819
I want a sword.
00:31:21.980 --> 00:31:23.500
Like, why can't I have a sword?
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:28.299
And I look at that and it's like, I wonder how many guys look at a woman's retreat and are like, I want good food.
00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:33.180
Why do they just give us the same five tacos every time and not even a table to sit around?
00:31:33.339 --> 00:31:33.579
Right.
00:31:33.740 --> 00:31:41.099
Like, why don't we get like a whole spread from a wonderful restaurant with like bacon and eggs and all of these things and a salad?
00:31:41.180 --> 00:31:42.139
Like, why can't I have that?
00:31:42.220 --> 00:31:45.019
And I look at that and I'm like, how did we get here?
00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:46.619
How did we get here?
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:47.339
Right.
00:31:47.659 --> 00:31:48.299
Right.
00:31:48.539 --> 00:31:52.299
Well said, you know, and I I hope something is shifting.
00:31:52.539 --> 00:32:03.019
The the men's retreats I've been at recently, you know, I can think of one, it was a father-son retreat um through Chris Bruno and Restoration Project.
00:32:03.259 --> 00:32:09.579
And, you know, what was beautiful about this retreat is yes, there was some of the adventure stuff and the bonding with your son.
00:32:09.740 --> 00:32:14.220
And this, you know, this was an intentional time, fathers, 50 dads, 50 sons.
00:32:14.539 --> 00:32:23.180
But by the end, right, the the beautiful part of what they did is they've invited men not just to external expression, but into their own hearts, right?
00:32:23.259 --> 00:32:27.980
We actually sat around and talked, right, and a men's retreat.
00:32:28.139 --> 00:32:33.659
And, you know, we've missed that part where you just get to not just a cheap Bible study, right?
00:32:33.740 --> 00:32:36.779
But where you actually share from your heart and share your story.
00:32:36.940 --> 00:32:38.539
And these guys did it well.
00:32:38.779 --> 00:33:46.599
And by the end of the time, it was all set, you know, we were sharing our stories about our own fathers and our own fathering.
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:48.440
Most of us were in tears.
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.200
And then there was this moment at the end where we were gonna bless our sons.
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.160
And there was not a dry eye among the dads, 50 men for 50 men.
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:05.000
Um, I didn't see everyone, but all the dads I saw and all the dads I was around who were blessing their sons were in tears, right?
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.839
Because they were, they had, were allowed to let their heart show up.
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.679
Um, we've needed that in our in our times as men.
00:34:12.759 --> 00:34:14.759
We don't just need a pep rally, right?
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:16.119
A spiritual pep rally.
00:34:16.279 --> 00:34:22.519
What we need is a chance to sit down and actually enter our own hearts, um, which I feel like we're starting to get.
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:34.119
Um, you know, it's it's interesting as you're sharing this, you know, there is that sentiment that we need to get away from as well, which is that men go out to kind of fight the world, right?
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:44.279
They go to battle at work, they go to battle um out in the world, and then they come home with their spoils of war, but the woman is at home safe, right?
00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:48.599
Away from the challenges that the man is protecting her from, right?
00:34:48.759 --> 00:34:58.759
And then he needs her to soothe him um and and you know, take care of his battle wounds, including sexually, and send him back out, right?
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:08.199
And it's not to say a man doesn't battle when he's at work, but we totally miss the fact that the home is profoundly a context for battle as well, right?
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:08.920
Absolutely.
00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:17.720
And this idea of that that the home is this safe place without that a woman doesn't need to be a warrior, she is totally battling if that's the setup, right?
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:24.440
If she's a stay-at-home mom, which that's not even true of a lot, no many women, right?
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:29.079
So um, and you know, dads who are stay-at-home dads now.
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:35.320
Um, we just need to get away from the idea that there's a context in which we both don't need to war.
00:35:35.640 --> 00:35:42.360
We both are called in the Garden of Eden to rule and subdue and be fruitful.
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.000
It's not one or the other, gender-wise.
00:35:45.160 --> 00:35:46.120
It's to both.
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:51.079
You need to guard the Garden of Eden and you need to be fruitful within it.
00:35:51.240 --> 00:35:53.320
You need to be the warrior and the lover.
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:56.360
Absolutely.
00:35:56.519 --> 00:36:03.160
And I'm so curious, you know, as a woman in the church, what might it be like?
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:12.599
And and I like to take it out of just the sexual context because I, you know, I, you know, my contention with the evangelical church is that it's a sex addict.
00:36:12.680 --> 00:36:19.000
It talks about intercourse and doesn't talk about intimacy, but there's intimacy to be had in all relationships.
00:36:19.160 --> 00:36:25.079
You know, the type of intimacy is going to be a bit variable depending on the context of the relationship.
00:36:25.240 --> 00:36:30.200
But I have deep, intimate relationships with my male friends that are not at all sexual.
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:32.519
They are just deep, beautiful friendships.
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.079
In fact, a buddy of mine was texting me about my move and how am I doing and all of that stuff.
00:36:37.240 --> 00:36:39.000
And he knows my heart, right?
00:36:39.160 --> 00:36:40.120
He knows my world.
00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:41.480
He cares deeply for me.
00:36:41.640 --> 00:36:50.360
There have been a few times where like he'll listen to a podcast that I've done or whatever, or he'll know like something I've posted where I'm like, what is happening in Christendom?
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:52.440
And I'm commenting on it.
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:55.720
And he's just like, hey, don't let him get you down.
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:56.599
Don't stop fighting.
00:36:56.680 --> 00:36:58.680
I, you know, I'm I I see you.
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:07.559
And like that is beautiful intimacy that he's like, I see your heart and I am with you, and I am holding you up behind the scenes and all those things.
00:37:07.720 --> 00:37:18.360
And I wonder what it would be like for the church, what flourishing would come if we all leaned into that and leaned into, I want to know your heart.
00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:20.599
I want to know like about you.
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:24.760
I want to know you, and I want to know your lover parts, your warrior parts.
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:29.480
Like, I want to be your friend and I want to have an intimate friendship with you, right?
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.440
And then in married relationships, obviously that's gonna go deeper.
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:36.199
It's gonna be, you know, it's gonna have more aspects of intimacy with it.
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:50.360
So, like, what would it be like though, if just as brothers and sisters in Christ, yes, we said, I see you, I want to know you, I want to war with you in the right places, and I want to I I want to see your lover.
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:51.880
I want to see your tenderness.
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:52.519
Yep.
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.119
Yeah, that's so good.
00:37:54.360 --> 00:38:09.079
You know, I I think about our mutual love of the Allender Center and the narrative-focused trauma care training, and I think of the context of those, you know, group um essentially group counseling environment, right?
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:13.559
Where you're receiving care around your own story and it's co-ed.
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:33.000
And I I can still feel in my body what it was like to be fought for by the women in my group, along with the men, but that ability to share space and feel fought for and loved or cared for um changed me.
00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:43.880
Um literally, I could feel a transition in my body of like, this is very different than what I've known in my story, um, and very healing.
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:52.280
So I agree, you know, the lover is not just um, you know, the the you know, the song of songs lover.
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:58.199
Yes, that's the lover, the man and the woman, but a lover is just anyone who loves, right?
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.480
That could be you love um a sunset.
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:04.280
Um, it could be you love a dog, right?
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:08.679
It could be that you love God's creation, it could be that you love a cause.
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:12.840
It could be just that you sit with a friend and care about their heart.
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:14.920
That's you being a lover.
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.639
Um, no, not sexual, right?
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:21.079
It's not that everything the lover does is sexual.
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.960
Um, but everything the lover does is driven by love.
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:30.199
Um I think you're right to say like we need to recover that in Christendom.
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:41.719
Um we we've had, you know, a reasonable, you know, engagement with the warrior uh in masculinity, but it's time we make a transition.
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.960
We need more, we need something fuller.
00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:45.719
Um, I think it's tired.
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:52.760
I think men are tired um uh of always having to kind of be uh, you know, in the pap rally.
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:53.800
Sorts are heavy.
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:54.920
Right.
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:56.599
Swords are heavy.
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:57.559
Sometimes put it down.
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.920
You know, I as I'm listening to you think of this, I'm I talk about this.
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:05.800
I'm thinking of something, one of my own experiences in narrative-focused trauma care.
00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:09.480
And it was a story engagement, one of my stories by a man.
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.639
And there were two things that happened in that engagement that absolutely turned me upside down in beautiful ways.
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.719
And he was both a lover and a warrior in the same moment for me.
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:27.880
And the very first thing was when we went to begin our engagement, he said to me, I have longed to do this with you for so long.
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:30.599
And like it was so honest.
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.880
Like he desired to be in this story with me.
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:35.960
And I was like, Oh no.
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:37.960
Like it was so disarming.
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:39.480
I was so seen.
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:41.240
I was like, I don't know what to do with that.
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:45.079
Like, oh my goodness, because it was so unexpected for that to be the opening.
00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:50.199
And then later on in the story, it's a story of me being physically injured and being left alone in it.
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:54.039
And he said, I want to get down on the floor with you.
00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:55.320
Will you let me?
00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:01.240
And he was both a lover and a warrior in that moment because he wasn't leaving me in my own darkness by myself.
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:08.440
And he was coming in tenderly, but to contend for me, to contend for my younger self that needed that care and kindness she didn't get.
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:21.079
And so I think there's also not a dichotomy necessarily between the lover and the warrior that we are one in the same, and that in the lover, we are warring in the right places, also.
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:22.840
That's so well said.
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:23.480
Right.
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.719
Maybe there's not even a separate category for these two in the kingdom of God, right?
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:32.519
Love, you know, love is an act of war, you know, this side of heaven.
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.480
And maybe, maybe we just have our own words for them.
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:37.240
But I think you're right, right?
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:44.920
A somebody in their lover is able to be fierce in those ways or very focused and intentional.
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:46.840
Um, I love that story.
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:47.320
Yeah.
00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:48.280
That's really cool.
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:48.840
Yeah.
00:41:49.719 --> 00:42:01.559
So how do you think, because as we kind of get close to the end here, how do you think we can invite men and women into that glorious place of fullness?
00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:15.880
Yeah, you know, I think you know, as a man, to be able to say um there's more for you than just being a warrior.
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:18.280
Yes, you are called to war.
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:24.920
Yes, that is a part of life, this side of heaven, um, the new heavens and new earth.
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:33.719
But you know, to be able to say there is more for you, and especially what pictures have been presented to you of the warrior, right?
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:45.800
Um, there is something much fuller that takes less aggression or energy or puffery, right?
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:57.320
Um, less ego in in many ways that you've I would want you to know as a man that you are fully capable of profoundly deep love.
00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:05.320
You know how you've been wired to know how to pursue other people's hearts and let your own heart be pursued.
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:10.199
Um, you can be vulnerable, you are very capable of that.
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:26.280
So just to begin to say, I want more, there's more to me um than just an ego and and just even a kind of white knuckling it that I get to be pursued and loved.
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:39.000
Um and I think as a woman, to be able to, as we've named, you know, both sexually to be able to say, you know, to claim the design of your body um sexually and be able to say, I have preferences.
00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:42.599
Um, sex is not just for you as a man, it's also for me.
00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:45.079
And then therefore to say, what do I want?
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:45.800
What do I like?
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:47.159
What do I not like?
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:54.199
Um, you know, from the orientation of your own body, not from, well, what does a man want?
00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:55.800
But what do I want?
00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:56.199
Right?
00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:57.559
To be able to own that.
00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:07.240
And then as we're naming, to be able to understand, you are just as much a warrior, um, just as much called to a ferocity um or an assertiveness.
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:14.599
Um and and that can be in the name of love, and uh it is just the same call as a man.
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:26.360
Um those I think, you know, to be able to open your heart to a greater vision um and let God speak to you there about what's next in those trainings.
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:29.079
Yes, I love that.
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:36.440
I'm gonna invite us as we end, I'm gonna invite the people listening to a journaling exercise if they're willing to do it.
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:43.159
So anytime I do anything like this when I'm teaching a class or teaching anybody anything, it's always an invitation that you can accept or decline.
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:44.760
Invitations are never forced.
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:56.599
But if you're willing, if people are willing to do this, I want to invite them to sit quietly, to find a place that's safe and comfortable for them where they feel grounded and and good.
00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:59.320
So that might be at home, that might be in a different place.
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:10.920
Um but invite yourself to notice your lover and invite yourself to notice your warrior and have a conversation with them.
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:18.280
You know, speak to your lover, ask them what they need, what are their fears, what are their vulnerabilities, where is their tenderness.
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.480
And for the warrior, where is their strength?
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:25.159
What battles do they enter into that help others flourish?
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:30.519
And talk to both and feel them where you can in your body.
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:37.639
So checking in, starting at the top of your head or the bottoms of your feet, whatever's comfortable, and it's kind of working your way through your body.
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:39.240
Where do you feel the lover?
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:41.480
Where do you feel the warrior?
00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:46.679
How can they be integrated in your whole self?
00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:52.119
So I just invite everybody to give that a try and see where it takes you.
00:45:52.360 --> 00:46:03.000
And if that feels a little bit scary and you're like, I don't know if I can do that by myself, I would invite you to bring a friend, um, to do it with a friend, maybe, or to do it with your therapist or your coach.
00:46:03.240 --> 00:46:11.719
And just get tender and vulnerable with yourself in those places and learn a little bit about your lover and your warrior.
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:13.960
You might be really surprised.
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:17.000
Sam, you are a delight.
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:19.800
I delight in talking to you so much.
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:21.400
You too, Tabitha.
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:26.440
I mean that things are already moving in my own body as I'm sitting with your exercise.
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:30.840
So um, I can't wait to return to those questions myself.
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:35.320
And I am so grateful for your warrior self and your wisdom.
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:39.079
Um, and thankful, thankful for this invitation.
00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:40.280
You're so welcome.
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:41.400
Thank you for being here, Sam.
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:45.320
And thank you all for listening or watching Hey Tabby this week.
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:47.559
If you have any questions, put them in the comments.
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.119
Sam and I will look at them, we'll answer them if we can.
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:51.639
But we are so glad you're here.
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:53.159
Be sure to like and subscribe.
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:56.199
Please leave a review because it does help people find us.
00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:59.000
And we will see you again next time.
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:03.800
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby.
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:12.920
If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby.
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.840
That's H E Y T A B I, and you can grab it there.
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:18.920
I look forward to seeing you next time.