00:00:04
Speaker 1: Turning, Turning Somebody. Welcome to Hello Somebody, a production of The Black Effect Podcast Network and I Heart Media. Where we rage against the machine, where we raise our voices against injustice and stand up for justice. Where we embrace hope and joy with an optimism for a bright or more justus future. Each week I'll be dropping knowledge, whether it's a solo episode from me or a hearty discussion with esteem guests doing great things in spaces and places of politics, entertainment, social justice, and beyond. We get real, baby, I mean really real. We get honest, We get up close and personal for you, Yes, you, because everybody is somebody. Before we begin, I want to give a special shout out to my team. Thank you, sim Tiffany Sam and the team over at Good Juju Studios, Erica, England, Pepper Chambers, the Hot One, and my social media team. There is always, and I mean always, a time in history when a courageous, unapologetic and bowls soul sees that some ship needs to change and that heroic soul steps up without equivocation. I don't think people get the whole picture or fully understand the bravery it takes for a person or a group of people to stand up a against corrupting forces, against corporate giants, against hell, just standing up to anybody that may be bigger than them physically and financially. Well, I must say that every body eventually has its day, and today, in this very historic moment, I have with me the one and only Mr Chris Small's president of Amazon Labor Union, and he saw and stepped up against those giants. I want to call him a giant killer because that's what he did. He slay them giants, and they don't know what to do with themselves. He was bold enough and brave enough and courageous enough to say enough is enough. So we're gonna get into this. Christian, how are you, Darler? Thank you, thank you so much. Oh it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to have you on this show. I've been watching you and following you, and you're fighting as most people know. And there may be some people new to listen to I love somebody or even some people new to both meeting you and myself, but I want them to know that you took a very painful moment in your life. Well, I'm jumping the gun, but being fire. You're gonna tell this story. But you took a painful moment in your life and you turned it into something magnificent. And I know that a lot of people want to know what was the force behind motivating you taking a moment in your life that could have set somebody else off in a different path, meaning that they just gave up totally because of the mammoth on the other side of this fight. What happened and what motivated you to keep pushing? Yeah, well, it was definitely the pandemic. It was a life of death situation going on in the country, in the world, and Amazon and along with other industries had as deemed as essential workers as you know, and to be deemed as an essential worker and not treated as such. Um. But for years on years and working at this company, I just couldn't take it anymore, especially when it came to COVID night team watching, my associates, my former colleagues, people that work underneath me coming the building every day without Ppe getting sick one by one of the domino effect right in front of me. I couldn't just stand there and be complacent about the situation if I had to take action, So that led me to do so. I'm old enough to remember when we did call workers such as Amazon workers. I remember the word being spread that Amazon workers save Christmas. You know, it's kind of like a little joke, but it was true that because of the onslaught of the pandemic in a lot of people couldn't get out the way that they would usually do if they celebrate the holiday and they shop. And it was Amazon workers of all all the levels within the warehouse, the people who drive the trucks, the people who pack all of that, you all really save Christmas. And people were appreciative. I know, folks can not necessarily see my air quotes right now, But then all of a sudden that was lost. You had a whole bunch of political leaders and business leaders singing your praises, and then all of a sudden people acted like essential workers, like Amazon workers, grocery store workers, medical workers, you know, the kinds of workers that all the rest of us needed to be able to carry on our lives. Amazon was very much a part of that. And then all of a sudden there was no praise and no uplift for essential workers at all. Do you think that we are too quick to forget because we are such an instant society we see it today. And then we move on to the next what is it about no longer seeing both Amazon workers and also your counterparts and other industries as essentials. And then my last point to this question not just saying the words essential, but treating you as though you are essential. Yeah, I think much of the economy starting to get that rolling the tension away from the issues in this country, which starts in the window in the media as well, not just but the labor movement, but with every every movement, the social justice, environmental you know, women's rights, the war, everything that's taking place in this country. You know, media gets dragged in several different directions, so it was easy for our stories, our voices to get buried. And that was my also ulship of mind to keep our story and our voices alive, just my you know, continue to put in the work in and do demonstrations across the country to amplify our voices. And then when it came time to unionize, we had to change course a little bit, change up our strategy. We had to definitely reach out for community support and in return, we realized that it was divided in and uh and we didn't really have that that option. We have the resources, are the established unions behind us. We had to do a real grass roots and that's how we had to beat Amazon. We had to bring it into the warehouse, connect with the co workers, let them know the issues of what's going on, and really build and earned trust with them. Otherwise you've never got it done. And what lessons did you learn? I mean, you were forced into that grassrooms position. Obviously you would have loved to have had the support of larger, more established unions. But since you found yourself being pretty much on your own, you and the rest of the people who believe in your calls, what are some of the lessons that you learned in this tumultuous process. What I definitely learned is, Uh, it doesn't matter the amount of money, the millions of dollars that the company spent against us, doesn't matter about their union busses meaning the building seven, It doesn't matter what they can do. When the power of the people come together, and when we all come together, we can defeat anything. And that's exactly what this campaign provement is that ordinary people from all different backgrounds, ethnicities can come together and defeat what we call Goliath, and you know, we want to continue to amplify that on the national scale. Here in dek Stat Island that's just one building, and there's several other campaigns that are still taking place. Of course, investment Alabama. We want to make sure that you know we're gonna take care of all across the country. You know, even in Ohio, this work is reaching out to us. We've been contacted by every building in the country since we won. And I just think right now we're part of a really bigger revolution when it comes to Amazon work. It's just like Starbucks. Now you really are Chris and just all those who are fighting to just even unionize, and you had like this burst I think in one in particular, where you saw a lot of our sisters and brothers and family and friends who are already unionized, really fighting and pushing for better wages, better work conditions, and better benefits. John Deer comes to mind. There were nurses that were on strike during that time. There were teachers that were striking. It was Baker's you know, from the Bakers Union. Just the onslought of those who are already within the House of Labor. And when you couple that, people who are already unionized, who look at what is happening in the system and they make a collective demand together, Putting aside political affiliations, which president you supported, what party you are from, your ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religions, all of that stuff goes out the door when you're trying to either one unionize or two. You're already unionize and you're fighting for better benefits, wages, and work conditions. And I see, Chris, what is happening within the labor movement as a template for bringing working class people from all backgrounds together to fight against an entire system, being social, political, economic, environmental, and racial, to fight for something that is bigger and better than us. How do you feel about people seeing the work that you're doing and others within the labor movement as a template to bring people from all walks of life together to demand better. That's the key. You know, what I said to Lizzie Graham was the same thing. You know, it doesn't matter if you're on the left of the right, So you you do see a connection between the larger labor struggle and the struggle for all working class people to demand better, to live good lives and You definitely set the stage for that multiple times. But I think especially for the world to see when you were at the Senate hearing and you had a chance to have an exchange with the Senator Lindsey Graham. Yeah, like I said, you know, this is not a left of right thing. This is a working class issue, and uh, we have to uplift ourselves. We can't rely on billionails to do it. We that we can't rely on the establishment to do it. You know, grassrooms, community efforts, bringing people together from all backgrounds. That's how we decelete the system that doesn't work for us. Yeah, I totally agree for people who have never ever maybe they don't have an Amazon worker in their family. There are many people have never worked in the factory. Can you walk us through a typical day and an Amazon warehouse? Absolutely, So I'll give you what I used to go through, uh as an experience. I live in New Jersey, which is about fifteen minutes from the city. If you're driving without traffic and you don't have a vehicle, you have to commute, you know, commuting this public trains, with the bus, train, subway, ferry. I had to take all three of these different options. To get the Amazon Staton Island. So most workers in the New York area that goes to that island, they had to take the bus to the city, then the train downtown to the ferry, and then the ferry across the river to that nowland, then another bus, the forty, which goes to the last stop, which is Amazon, and that could take anywhere between two and a half and three hours, depending on where you're coming from, what borrow you live in. If you live in New Jersey, so two and a half the three hours each way on top of your ten or twelve hours ship I work both. I used to tell my New Highs if you have a gym members it, you might want to cancel it because you're gonna be doing tend to twelve hours of calisthetics, pulling, reaching, veniting, lifting items all day long. You're on the station. You have to make productivity, which is for my department, the hourly rate was four items hour, So I had to pick at the station, which is like sort of like a cubical life station, and it's like a robot that brains over sort of like a bookshew, and you pick these small items that customers order, you know, all day long and you're doing that pretended to allowers. So yeah, it was very physical and more so mentally took a toll of you as well. Used to see my style terry confinement because these buildings don't have any windows. These buildings are massive, the size of fourteen NFL football fields, a million square feet. It takes five to ten minutes to walk to the bathroom and you only get it thirty minute months for the hours that you put in. So you know, just imagine being in that four days a week and beyond. So, Chris, let me go back to something you said, because I don't want to lose it. You said you only get a thirty minute lunch for eight ten to twelve hour shift. So to turn, I want to share. If you get thirty minutes and you also get a fifteen minute or twenty minute break, they give you two breaks for the day. Same thing with the twelve hour shift. You may get a forty five minute months, but you also get another second break and then out of it. It still wasn't enough, hardly enough to work those long hours and have you know such a little break time. Yeah, I agree. In the grueling physical work and you mentioned no windows. Oh, no, the only windows you see is in the cafeteria. Anywhere else in the building. You know, there's windows that are that you can't even they'll see for yourself. They're all the way up top, or if the building has them at all, they may not even have them. So you wouldn't even know if there was a weather occurrence because you have no windows or very few windows. Oh yeah, definitely. You know, we didn't have that strass to our phone before the pandemic either, So imagine that those years that I worked that Amazon, you didn't have access to your phone. We have to put our phones and lockers. They're allowed to have the phones going the pandemic, and because of you know, our efforts with the union amplifying that you know, our phone leads to beyond us at all times, because it would happened with the tornado. Yes, you don't have that access, you know before, and and that was another issue as well. I mean, it sounds very much to me reminiscent of sweatshops that we had once upon a time in this country, and those were i mean for a long time, you know, workers of this nation, and that's how we were able to get you know, that is why labor exists. Was the fight for those things, better work conditions, better benefits, a better salary, and all of that kind of stuff. But to me, hearing you describe what a typical day could be like for a worker coming from New Jersey or in the Greater New York area working at the Staten Island, it seems to me as if this is regression and not progress. And I, for the life of me, do not understand why any local, state, or federal labor board or organization that is charged we're looking out for workers would even agree to those kinds of work conditions, and particularly when you get to work permit for the buildings, that is a local issue. I served on a local city council here in Cleveland that comes from a local level. Why would any local government approved that kind of building for workers. There's something psychological about windows, and this is real. This is not just need to Turner saying it. There's science behind having real sunlight and science behind having fresh air and the impact that having those things have on our psyche and our physical body. Conversely, not having those things have an impact on our psyche and our physical bodies. Oh yeah, I agree a hundred Once again, I mentioned it was solitary complinement. You're in this building from sun up to sun down. You don't see it in the sunlight when you're outside unless you go outside for a break, and your track on your second grade, so you don't have them as time. It's real prison, like. I visited quite a few prisons in my life, you know, with my my father being incarcerated, and I can tell you there's not too much of a difference, especially now stating only because of the Union campaign, they build up offense with barbed wire. Never see that at the Amazon. Yeah, there's defense with barbed wire right outside of dfk A. There's a scaffold there. Now, it doesn't make any sense why they put that up, But you know, all these things that just build real prison like. You know, the buildings already far out away from the inner city and it takes you know, once again two hours three hours to get there if you're commuting. It's a disconnect from society. And that's why it's important that we amplify their voices and we do our demonstrations out there and press conferences out there. If I was doing any media, they had to come meet me in the trenches because that's what it was. That's exactly right, because it's I want the people who are on this journey with us today to understand that because most people in the world order from Amazon, it's not a matter of Amazon going away. It is a matter of Amazon being a better corporate citizen and treating its workers with the respect and dignity that they deserve, starting with benefits, work conditions, and wages. I was struck, Chris, when I went to Bessemer, Alabama. Mean to a person, and we know that their majority African American workforce, majority African American woman workforce. I was just really struck by the fact that I have not heard, and you've certainly been around many more Amazon workers than I have, but I did not hear and have not heard to this very moment, any Amazon worker who wanted Amazon to go out of business. What I did hear from the workers was that they wanted to be treated through actions and deeds, both through my paycheck, through my work conditions, through my benefits, with the respect and dignity that they deserve, and helping this company become the Juggernai that it is in the world, even after all the abuse and the stories that I've heard, and the one that you are lifting up today, I still did not hear one Amazon workers say that they wanted Amazon to go out of business. Yeah, that's true, even for my case as well. You know, they just they try to use that against us. They're like, oh, the million dollar lawyers sent you know my Twitter handles shut down Amazon to the n l r B saying that you know, we want to shut down the building. We want to shut down Amazon. It's ridiculous. It's like, no, we don't. We want our jobs. We just want to be treated better. We want better pay, we want better medical leave options, we want to pension, you want job security. You know basic things that I show you now, the companies should be able to afford with no problem. They took one million of their dollars and stopped putting it towards union busting, and they can actually pay everybody a decent living waves. And that's all we're asking for is a fair share and to be treated with respect until be treated as a sense of workers. Since we are in necessity, you are on the fight until we get that. Look to me, when I saw shut down Amazon, I was thinking it meant shut down of bullshit. And let's get to the real ship. That's how I took it. Shut that down, shut down this old way of doing things, and let's do things the right way to meet. Local government has a role to play, Chris, I am harping on the building, and I can envision. I've been in several prisons, you know, over my professional life as well, and I can visualize it. And to me, when you talk about going on lunch, I can visualize being in the yard when you're just getting the chance to look up at the sun and get a little fresh air. And then you got to go back in, like you said, to solitary confinement. It makes no sense. And then you said, uh, a scaffold and of fence with bob wire. How in the hell did the locals allow Amazon? See, we gotta put this blame everywhere. Government has a role to play, local, regional, state, and federal, and they are letting Amazon do this to the workers. Because if the federal government in particular was carrying the carrot and the stick, they wouldn't get be able to get away with this. If federal, local, state, and regional leaders who are elected were more outraged, Amazon wouldn't be able to get a weight with this because government writes the rules. So who would in the hell approved a building that has very few windows. I'm just really and everything that you're saying, just really disappointed with those who are elected to office because they are allowing this company to get away with it. And it really all goes back to big money in politics too. Many of these elected officials are bought and soul. Chris, absolutely, I've noticed that in my short two years and organizing how politics play into this organizing realm. We have to apply that question too. I had to call out alc That's what it took to get her out there. She came out there. You know, now we're tight, you know, we're good, and she started to help out even more. And that's what it takes good takes us to hold them accountable. And we have to do that, especially the unions that's been around. You know, Amazon has been around for twenty eight years, you know, and the stuff that we're doing, of course is unpresidented, but at the same time, these established unions have been doing a lot more, a lot sooner, and you know, we have to hold them accountable as well as you know, the new up and coming grassroots organization. I want to make sure that everybody is involved in trying to fight against Amazon, because they're in every state, They're in every major city across this country. And once again, all the workers since we won have reached out to us from every building in the country and beyond, even overseas. So we're gonna need a lot of support. We're gonna have to all be David versus Golia. Yeah, beautiful. I'm so glad to hear that people are ready to rise up, and a lot of that comes from the courage that you showed, the courage that our sisters and brothers and family and friends showed the best summer to really say we're gonna fight. We don't care what they say and what they do, we are going to fight. I want to draw attention to something I think it was one of the Amazon lawyers said, because they under estimated you, and your story is one of triumph, but it's not without paining, and it's not without sacrifice. People see you where you are now, and they see all the interviews and the calls that you get, but very few people understand what it took for you to be in this moment. They see you on top so to speak. And I'm using on top not to say that you it is not an indication that you are above the people, but I mean people see you at the top of the game and this game, which is to fight for unionization and Amazon. But very few people know the moments of anxiety, the moments of ridicule, the moments of doubt that you had to endure before you opened everybody's eyes by doing what my grandmother used to say it. She used to say this, I can show you better than I can tell you. And that's exactly what you did. And one moment in particular is I believe this came from one of the attorneys, but you can tell me. And and the quote I'm quoting this person, they say he's not smart articulate. That statement really gave me chills, It really did. And it just reminded me that oppression and arrogance and racism is still alive. And well, what were your initial thoughts when you saw that or when you read that, and how did you prove them wrong? How did you do with my grandmother said I can show you better than I can tell you. I noted it, for sure. I remember when it came out it was like a week or two after I was fired two years ago, David Spolski said that, you know, I'm not small articulate. Instead of answering for the UM team time they're helping safety concerns to the media, that was their playing their smear campaign. And Jeff Bezos himself was in that room and also signed off on that as well. So of course it motivated me to continue advocating. Definitely upset at me, that is definitely something that I stigma on the black community. To say something like that definitely made my lawyers upset. I remember my lawyer reached out to me, and he was more upset than I was because I didn't understand it at first, and it took me a minute to understand what he sent me. I'm like, wait a second, I'm reading something that was set about me, and oh, oh okay. So I noted that, and you know, I said, you know, I'm gonna show them. Travel the country, advocated front of Jeff Bazo's mansions and penthouses all across the country from New York all the way to Beverly Hills. Then we went up to Seattle, we went to Corporate and went to the spears, and then we went to Alabama as well. We had to stop down there, and we came back home and we said, you know what I started, you not Scott Knowledge and UM. The same people that I had from day one. Some of them I used to be my former employees underneath me. I used to be the supervisor. They're still ride with me today. And and that's what it took. It took us all coming back home to New York, coming together, bringing people our comrades with us. And we had people packed their lives up, travel across country and UM organized with us, and we got it done. Yeah you did, And I'm glad you're or. It was upset about it as soon as I read it, just because you know, I'm a professor of African American history and I I understand what that meant is. It was just like using the ansi of Mima one time in my political career that Antiobama was used against me. So when people do that, especially white people, when they say he's not smart, he's not articulate, it's falling back on a tired old UH stereotype about Black people and our intellect and the seat that we're not talking about the eighteen hundreds. Of the nineteen hundreds, we're talking about the two thousands, and they're still playing that game. You know, there was a point in time, I don't know if you recall, there was a candidate they did the reverse. They said of then Senator Obama, he's clean and articulate. Yeah, that person is in the White House right now. He did the reverse, he's clean and articulate, instead of calling them not, he's cleaning articulate. Again, it doesn't matter how they use it. It is a stereotype and a trope against African American people, and it just does remind us that to fight against anti blackness, it's real, and that racism and bigotry will always fall back on its tired old tropes, and that is one of them to paint you as insignificant. Really, that's what they were trying to do. And you did show them. And I'm so glad that you did. And there are thousands and thousands of Amazon workers and other working class people who are glad that you did too. I want to end our session with two things. One that I want to do it with a quote. I'm gonna do a faith based quote. Now, everybody that listens to Hello, somebody, they know my love languages, quotes and scriptures. And then Chris, I want you to respond to it. And then also lastly, I want you to tell people what they can do to be involved, to be engaged, and to help you and your colleagues on this justice journey, because justice is a journey, is not a destination. So I'm gonna pull something from Dr King. He's so quotable, But here we go. May I stress a need for courage, intelligent and dedicated leadership. Leaders of sound integrity. Leaders not in love with publicity, but in love with justice. Leaders not in love with money, but in love with humanity. Leaders who can subject to their particular eagles to the greatness of the cause. When I thought about that quote, I thought about you. You are subjecting yourself to the greatness of the cause. That inspiring word comes from the Reverend Dr Martin Luther King, Jr. And another one I have from the Book of Joshua, the first chapter the ninth verse, and it reads, have I not commanded you be strong and courageous, Do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. And I'm using that scripture in a spiritual sense. I know everybody that's listening to us is not, you know, hail from the Christian tradition. We probably have Buddhists and Muslims and jew sisters and brothers and family and friends, and atheists and agnostics too, you know, people who rock all kinds of different ways. So when I read that, I'm reading it from a spiritual sense of just pouring in to you for the incredible work that you have done and what you are continuing to do. So if you can react to both of those things and then tell all of us what we can do to be more helpful to you and your colleagues in this fight, well thank you, because you know I love getting that type of spiritual motivation as well, because it's needed in this fight. And and that's what you know I take from them from both of the quotes, is that you know the work that I'm doing is God's work. You know, I started two years ago. And if you would have asked me two and a half years ago, would I'd be sitting here talking to Senator turning out have been like, what are you talking about? Just being unemployed? Being fired, being an advocate for workers for so long and continue to do the work that I'm doing. I want to represent everybody. I want to continue to inspire and continue to bring people together. And that's when my journey is about. It's never been about myself. It's always been about the people, and it's going to continue to be that way, no matter who I'm meeting, whether I'm going to the White House, no matter what celebrity I'm standing next to, shaking hands, But none of that matters to me. And anybody that's been around me and know who I am as a person, know that I'm I'm for the people. I was pushed forward by the people, and the people embrace that. You know, we all list together, you know, solidarity forever. Indeed, solidarity forever. And if people want to get involved, what do you recommend they do? And please share all of your social media handles. Sure absolutely, this is the nation wide call action. Amazon hasn't recognized Junete. You guys are paid holiday. They claim they're standing with the black community. Solidarity with the black community. They need to pay us on our holiday and make that a paid national holiday, making the ninth paid national holiday for the company. Right now is only eight As you know, it's been passed since last year. They made an excuse of the reason they're being so close they couldn't do it in time, But they had a whole year to make that decision and it still hasn't been made yet. So I'm I'm asking everybody to amplify that June teeth is not recognized as a paid holiday from Amazon. Cancel your prime, do whatever you gotta do, amplify that, and we're putting out a petition. Please look for that. It's gonna be on our social media. What's gonna be found on Twitter at Amazon Labor on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok at Amazon Labor Union at Amazon Labor Union dot org and myself at shut underscore down Amazon on Twitter at Chris Small's on Instagram. Well, it has been our absolute honor and pleasure to have you. Chris Small's the one and only the president of the a l You. He is making all kinds of good trouble and we are so glad that he is. Please make sure that you do what you can where you are what you have joined this fight, because when you joined the fight with the Amazon workers all over the world, you are really joining the fight with the house of labor all over the world. Chris smalls, what a pleasure. Baby. You keep the faith and I want you to keep the fight. Turnordinary jordinary things somebody and make it turn up believing some turnings, giving us jo somebody time. Yeah, changes coming. The pain is nothing trying to shoot for the stars. If you're gonna aim for something, embrace the love for your brother and sister. You need these the mission brush, we need the puzzle. This pictures painted up and frame it up for the world to see. Came to hate it up. Enough is enough, It's enough making changes or enough in turn of a voice of the truth to wise words despire the youth to keep their eyes on the roof. It's the end. Never give up, keep conquering goals to the eye. Intelligence, silver, wisdom is gold. That to the end. Now is your time, Stay firm, don't fold to the a or you need is the three bones. That's what Randie said. Now I'm gonna make sure these words from Randie spread for all the hair. To give it your hair. She can take him to the promised Land. I swear world pieces what they fear, and Queen's to Cleveland Ohio. We're here, Famous, Famous, Turning any quality Brandell, Hello, Somebody you need to turn, Spanning Somebody, Ship and Turnings, Hell, Somebody you need to turn. Times Great Try Brothers A great more hand. Hello Somebody is a production of I Heart Radio and the Black Effect Network. For more podcast from our heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: Turning, Turning Somebody. Welcome to Hello Somebody, a production of The Black Effect Podcast Network and I Heart Media. Where we rage against the machine, where we raise our voices against injustice and stand up for justice. Where we embrace hope and joy with an optimism for a bright or more justus future. Each week I'll be dropping knowledge, whether it's a solo episode from me or a hearty discussion with esteem guests doing great things in spaces and places of politics, entertainment, social justice, and beyond. We get real, baby, I mean really real. We get honest, We get up close and personal for you, Yes, you, because everybody is somebody. Before we begin, I want to give a special shout out to my team. Thank you, sim Tiffany Sam and the team over at Good Juju Studios, Erica, England, Pepper Chambers, the Hot One, and my social media team. There is always, and I mean always, a time in history when a courageous, unapologetic and bowls soul sees that some ship needs to change and that heroic soul steps up without equivocation. I don't think people get the whole picture or fully understand the bravery it takes for a person or a group of people to stand up a against corrupting forces, against corporate giants, against hell, just standing up to anybody that may be bigger than them physically and financially. Well, I must say that every body eventually has its day, and today, in this very historic moment, I have with me the one and only Mr Chris Small's president of Amazon Labor Union, and he saw and stepped up against those giants. I want to call him a giant killer because that's what he did. He slay them giants, and they don't know what to do with themselves. He was bold enough and brave enough and courageous enough to say enough is enough. So we're gonna get into this. Christian, how are you, Darler? Thank you, thank you so much. Oh it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to have you on this show. I've been watching you and following you, and you're fighting as most people know. And there may be some people new to listen to I love somebody or even some people new to both meeting you and myself, but I want them to know that you took a very painful moment in your life. Well, I'm jumping the gun, but being fire. You're gonna tell this story. But you took a painful moment in your life and you turned it into something magnificent. And I know that a lot of people want to know what was the force behind motivating you taking a moment in your life that could have set somebody else off in a different path, meaning that they just gave up totally because of the mammoth on the other side of this fight. What happened and what motivated you to keep pushing? Yeah, well, it was definitely the pandemic. It was a life of death situation going on in the country, in the world, and Amazon and along with other industries had as deemed as essential workers as you know, and to be deemed as an essential worker and not treated as such. Um. But for years on years and working at this company, I just couldn't take it anymore, especially when it came to COVID night team watching, my associates, my former colleagues, people that work underneath me coming the building every day without Ppe getting sick one by one of the domino effect right in front of me. I couldn't just stand there and be complacent about the situation if I had to take action, So that led me to do so. I'm old enough to remember when we did call workers such as Amazon workers. I remember the word being spread that Amazon workers save Christmas. You know, it's kind of like a little joke, but it was true that because of the onslaught of the pandemic in a lot of people couldn't get out the way that they would usually do if they celebrate the holiday and they shop. And it was Amazon workers of all all the levels within the warehouse, the people who drive the trucks, the people who pack all of that, you all really save Christmas. And people were appreciative. I know, folks can not necessarily see my air quotes right now, But then all of a sudden that was lost. You had a whole bunch of political leaders and business leaders singing your praises, and then all of a sudden people acted like essential workers, like Amazon workers, grocery store workers, medical workers, you know, the kinds of workers that all the rest of us needed to be able to carry on our lives. Amazon was very much a part of that. And then all of a sudden there was no praise and no uplift for essential workers at all. Do you think that we are too quick to forget because we are such an instant society we see it today. And then we move on to the next what is it about no longer seeing both Amazon workers and also your counterparts and other industries as essentials. And then my last point to this question not just saying the words essential, but treating you as though you are essential. Yeah, I think much of the economy starting to get that rolling the tension away from the issues in this country, which starts in the window in the media as well, not just but the labor movement, but with every every movement, the social justice, environmental you know, women's rights, the war, everything that's taking place in this country. You know, media gets dragged in several different directions, so it was easy for our stories, our voices to get buried. And that was my also ulship of mind to keep our story and our voices alive, just my you know, continue to put in the work in and do demonstrations across the country to amplify our voices. And then when it came time to unionize, we had to change course a little bit, change up our strategy. We had to definitely reach out for community support and in return, we realized that it was divided in and uh and we didn't really have that that option. We have the resources, are the established unions behind us. We had to do a real grass roots and that's how we had to beat Amazon. We had to bring it into the warehouse, connect with the co workers, let them know the issues of what's going on, and really build and earned trust with them. Otherwise you've never got it done. And what lessons did you learn? I mean, you were forced into that grassrooms position. Obviously you would have loved to have had the support of larger, more established unions. But since you found yourself being pretty much on your own, you and the rest of the people who believe in your calls, what are some of the lessons that you learned in this tumultuous process. What I definitely learned is, Uh, it doesn't matter the amount of money, the millions of dollars that the company spent against us, doesn't matter about their union busses meaning the building seven, It doesn't matter what they can do. When the power of the people come together, and when we all come together, we can defeat anything. And that's exactly what this campaign provement is that ordinary people from all different backgrounds, ethnicities can come together and defeat what we call Goliath, and you know, we want to continue to amplify that on the national scale. Here in dek Stat Island that's just one building, and there's several other campaigns that are still taking place. Of course, investment Alabama. We want to make sure that you know we're gonna take care of all across the country. You know, even in Ohio, this work is reaching out to us. We've been contacted by every building in the country since we won. And I just think right now we're part of a really bigger revolution when it comes to Amazon work. It's just like Starbucks. Now you really are Chris and just all those who are fighting to just even unionize, and you had like this burst I think in one in particular, where you saw a lot of our sisters and brothers and family and friends who are already unionized, really fighting and pushing for better wages, better work conditions, and better benefits. John Deer comes to mind. There were nurses that were on strike during that time. There were teachers that were striking. It was Baker's you know, from the Bakers Union. Just the onslought of those who are already within the House of Labor. And when you couple that, people who are already unionized, who look at what is happening in the system and they make a collective demand together, Putting aside political affiliations, which president you supported, what party you are from, your ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religions, all of that stuff goes out the door when you're trying to either one unionize or two. You're already unionize and you're fighting for better benefits, wages, and work conditions. And I see, Chris, what is happening within the labor movement as a template for bringing working class people from all backgrounds together to fight against an entire system, being social, political, economic, environmental, and racial, to fight for something that is bigger and better than us. How do you feel about people seeing the work that you're doing and others within the labor movement as a template to bring people from all walks of life together to demand better. That's the key. You know, what I said to Lizzie Graham was the same thing. You know, it doesn't matter if you're on the left of the right, So you you do see a connection between the larger labor struggle and the struggle for all working class people to demand better, to live good lives and You definitely set the stage for that multiple times. But I think especially for the world to see when you were at the Senate hearing and you had a chance to have an exchange with the Senator Lindsey Graham. Yeah, like I said, you know, this is not a left of right thing. This is a working class issue, and uh, we have to uplift ourselves. We can't rely on billionails to do it. We that we can't rely on the establishment to do it. You know, grassrooms, community efforts, bringing people together from all backgrounds. That's how we decelete the system that doesn't work for us. Yeah, I totally agree for people who have never ever maybe they don't have an Amazon worker in their family. There are many people have never worked in the factory. Can you walk us through a typical day and an Amazon warehouse? Absolutely, So I'll give you what I used to go through, uh as an experience. I live in New Jersey, which is about fifteen minutes from the city. If you're driving without traffic and you don't have a vehicle, you have to commute, you know, commuting this public trains, with the bus, train, subway, ferry. I had to take all three of these different options. To get the Amazon Staton Island. So most workers in the New York area that goes to that island, they had to take the bus to the city, then the train downtown to the ferry, and then the ferry across the river to that nowland, then another bus, the forty, which goes to the last stop, which is Amazon, and that could take anywhere between two and a half and three hours, depending on where you're coming from, what borrow you live in. If you live in New Jersey, so two and a half the three hours each way on top of your ten or twelve hours ship I work both. I used to tell my New Highs if you have a gym members it, you might want to cancel it because you're gonna be doing tend to twelve hours of calisthetics, pulling, reaching, veniting, lifting items all day long. You're on the station. You have to make productivity, which is for my department, the hourly rate was four items hour, So I had to pick at the station, which is like sort of like a cubical life station, and it's like a robot that brains over sort of like a bookshew, and you pick these small items that customers order, you know, all day long and you're doing that pretended to allowers. So yeah, it was very physical and more so mentally took a toll of you as well. Used to see my style terry confinement because these buildings don't have any windows. These buildings are massive, the size of fourteen NFL football fields, a million square feet. It takes five to ten minutes to walk to the bathroom and you only get it thirty minute months for the hours that you put in. So you know, just imagine being in that four days a week and beyond. So, Chris, let me go back to something you said, because I don't want to lose it. You said you only get a thirty minute lunch for eight ten to twelve hour shift. So to turn, I want to share. If you get thirty minutes and you also get a fifteen minute or twenty minute break, they give you two breaks for the day. Same thing with the twelve hour shift. You may get a forty five minute months, but you also get another second break and then out of it. It still wasn't enough, hardly enough to work those long hours and have you know such a little break time. Yeah, I agree. In the grueling physical work and you mentioned no windows. Oh, no, the only windows you see is in the cafeteria. Anywhere else in the building. You know, there's windows that are that you can't even they'll see for yourself. They're all the way up top, or if the building has them at all, they may not even have them. So you wouldn't even know if there was a weather occurrence because you have no windows or very few windows. Oh yeah, definitely. You know, we didn't have that strass to our phone before the pandemic either, So imagine that those years that I worked that Amazon, you didn't have access to your phone. We have to put our phones and lockers. They're allowed to have the phones going the pandemic, and because of you know, our efforts with the union amplifying that you know, our phone leads to beyond us at all times, because it would happened with the tornado. Yes, you don't have that access, you know before, and and that was another issue as well. I mean, it sounds very much to me reminiscent of sweatshops that we had once upon a time in this country, and those were i mean for a long time, you know, workers of this nation, and that's how we were able to get you know, that is why labor exists. Was the fight for those things, better work conditions, better benefits, a better salary, and all of that kind of stuff. But to me, hearing you describe what a typical day could be like for a worker coming from New Jersey or in the Greater New York area working at the Staten Island, it seems to me as if this is regression and not progress. And I, for the life of me, do not understand why any local, state, or federal labor board or organization that is charged we're looking out for workers would even agree to those kinds of work conditions, and particularly when you get to work permit for the buildings, that is a local issue. I served on a local city council here in Cleveland that comes from a local level. Why would any local government approved that kind of building for workers. There's something psychological about windows, and this is real. This is not just need to Turner saying it. There's science behind having real sunlight and science behind having fresh air and the impact that having those things have on our psyche and our physical body. Conversely, not having those things have an impact on our psyche and our physical bodies. Oh yeah, I agree a hundred Once again, I mentioned it was solitary complinement. You're in this building from sun up to sun down. You don't see it in the sunlight when you're outside unless you go outside for a break, and your track on your second grade, so you don't have them as time. It's real prison, like. I visited quite a few prisons in my life, you know, with my my father being incarcerated, and I can tell you there's not too much of a difference, especially now stating only because of the Union campaign, they build up offense with barbed wire. Never see that at the Amazon. Yeah, there's defense with barbed wire right outside of dfk A. There's a scaffold there. Now, it doesn't make any sense why they put that up, But you know, all these things that just build real prison like. You know, the buildings already far out away from the inner city and it takes you know, once again two hours three hours to get there if you're commuting. It's a disconnect from society. And that's why it's important that we amplify their voices and we do our demonstrations out there and press conferences out there. If I was doing any media, they had to come meet me in the trenches because that's what it was. That's exactly right, because it's I want the people who are on this journey with us today to understand that because most people in the world order from Amazon, it's not a matter of Amazon going away. It is a matter of Amazon being a better corporate citizen and treating its workers with the respect and dignity that they deserve, starting with benefits, work conditions, and wages. I was struck, Chris, when I went to Bessemer, Alabama. Mean to a person, and we know that their majority African American workforce, majority African American woman workforce. I was just really struck by the fact that I have not heard, and you've certainly been around many more Amazon workers than I have, but I did not hear and have not heard to this very moment, any Amazon worker who wanted Amazon to go out of business. What I did hear from the workers was that they wanted to be treated through actions and deeds, both through my paycheck, through my work conditions, through my benefits, with the respect and dignity that they deserve, and helping this company become the Juggernai that it is in the world, even after all the abuse and the stories that I've heard, and the one that you are lifting up today, I still did not hear one Amazon workers say that they wanted Amazon to go out of business. Yeah, that's true, even for my case as well. You know, they just they try to use that against us. They're like, oh, the million dollar lawyers sent you know my Twitter handles shut down Amazon to the n l r B saying that you know, we want to shut down the building. We want to shut down Amazon. It's ridiculous. It's like, no, we don't. We want our jobs. We just want to be treated better. We want better pay, we want better medical leave options, we want to pension, you want job security. You know basic things that I show you now, the companies should be able to afford with no problem. They took one million of their dollars and stopped putting it towards union busting, and they can actually pay everybody a decent living waves. And that's all we're asking for is a fair share and to be treated with respect until be treated as a sense of workers. Since we are in necessity, you are on the fight until we get that. Look to me, when I saw shut down Amazon, I was thinking it meant shut down of bullshit. And let's get to the real ship. That's how I took it. Shut that down, shut down this old way of doing things, and let's do things the right way to meet. Local government has a role to play, Chris, I am harping on the building, and I can envision. I've been in several prisons, you know, over my professional life as well, and I can visualize it. And to me, when you talk about going on lunch, I can visualize being in the yard when you're just getting the chance to look up at the sun and get a little fresh air. And then you got to go back in, like you said, to solitary confinement. It makes no sense. And then you said, uh, a scaffold and of fence with bob wire. How in the hell did the locals allow Amazon? See, we gotta put this blame everywhere. Government has a role to play, local, regional, state, and federal, and they are letting Amazon do this to the workers. Because if the federal government in particular was carrying the carrot and the stick, they wouldn't get be able to get away with this. If federal, local, state, and regional leaders who are elected were more outraged, Amazon wouldn't be able to get a weight with this because government writes the rules. So who would in the hell approved a building that has very few windows. I'm just really and everything that you're saying, just really disappointed with those who are elected to office because they are allowing this company to get away with it. And it really all goes back to big money in politics too. Many of these elected officials are bought and soul. Chris, absolutely, I've noticed that in my short two years and organizing how politics play into this organizing realm. We have to apply that question too. I had to call out alc That's what it took to get her out there. She came out there. You know, now we're tight, you know, we're good, and she started to help out even more. And that's what it takes good takes us to hold them accountable. And we have to do that, especially the unions that's been around. You know, Amazon has been around for twenty eight years, you know, and the stuff that we're doing, of course is unpresidented, but at the same time, these established unions have been doing a lot more, a lot sooner, and you know, we have to hold them accountable as well as you know, the new up and coming grassroots organization. I want to make sure that everybody is involved in trying to fight against Amazon, because they're in every state, They're in every major city across this country. And once again, all the workers since we won have reached out to us from every building in the country and beyond, even overseas. So we're gonna need a lot of support. We're gonna have to all be David versus Golia. Yeah, beautiful. I'm so glad to hear that people are ready to rise up, and a lot of that comes from the courage that you showed, the courage that our sisters and brothers and family and friends showed the best summer to really say we're gonna fight. We don't care what they say and what they do, we are going to fight. I want to draw attention to something I think it was one of the Amazon lawyers said, because they under estimated you, and your story is one of triumph, but it's not without paining, and it's not without sacrifice. People see you where you are now, and they see all the interviews and the calls that you get, but very few people understand what it took for you to be in this moment. They see you on top so to speak. And I'm using on top not to say that you it is not an indication that you are above the people, but I mean people see you at the top of the game and this game, which is to fight for unionization and Amazon. But very few people know the moments of anxiety, the moments of ridicule, the moments of doubt that you had to endure before you opened everybody's eyes by doing what my grandmother used to say it. She used to say this, I can show you better than I can tell you. And that's exactly what you did. And one moment in particular is I believe this came from one of the attorneys, but you can tell me. And and the quote I'm quoting this person, they say he's not smart articulate. That statement really gave me chills, It really did. And it just reminded me that oppression and arrogance and racism is still alive. And well, what were your initial thoughts when you saw that or when you read that, and how did you prove them wrong? How did you do with my grandmother said I can show you better than I can tell you. I noted it, for sure. I remember when it came out it was like a week or two after I was fired two years ago, David Spolski said that, you know, I'm not small articulate. Instead of answering for the UM team time they're helping safety concerns to the media, that was their playing their smear campaign. And Jeff Bezos himself was in that room and also signed off on that as well. So of course it motivated me to continue advocating. Definitely upset at me, that is definitely something that I stigma on the black community. To say something like that definitely made my lawyers upset. I remember my lawyer reached out to me, and he was more upset than I was because I didn't understand it at first, and it took me a minute to understand what he sent me. I'm like, wait a second, I'm reading something that was set about me, and oh, oh okay. So I noted that, and you know, I said, you know, I'm gonna show them. Travel the country, advocated front of Jeff Bazo's mansions and penthouses all across the country from New York all the way to Beverly Hills. Then we went up to Seattle, we went to Corporate and went to the spears, and then we went to Alabama as well. We had to stop down there, and we came back home and we said, you know what I started, you not Scott Knowledge and UM. The same people that I had from day one. Some of them I used to be my former employees underneath me. I used to be the supervisor. They're still ride with me today. And and that's what it took. It took us all coming back home to New York, coming together, bringing people our comrades with us. And we had people packed their lives up, travel across country and UM organized with us, and we got it done. Yeah you did, And I'm glad you're or. It was upset about it as soon as I read it, just because you know, I'm a professor of African American history and I I understand what that meant is. It was just like using the ansi of Mima one time in my political career that Antiobama was used against me. So when people do that, especially white people, when they say he's not smart, he's not articulate, it's falling back on a tired old UH stereotype about Black people and our intellect and the seat that we're not talking about the eighteen hundreds. Of the nineteen hundreds, we're talking about the two thousands, and they're still playing that game. You know, there was a point in time, I don't know if you recall, there was a candidate they did the reverse. They said of then Senator Obama, he's clean and articulate. Yeah, that person is in the White House right now. He did the reverse, he's clean and articulate, instead of calling them not, he's cleaning articulate. Again, it doesn't matter how they use it. It is a stereotype and a trope against African American people, and it just does remind us that to fight against anti blackness, it's real, and that racism and bigotry will always fall back on its tired old tropes, and that is one of them to paint you as insignificant. Really, that's what they were trying to do. And you did show them. And I'm so glad that you did. And there are thousands and thousands of Amazon workers and other working class people who are glad that you did too. I want to end our session with two things. One that I want to do it with a quote. I'm gonna do a faith based quote. Now, everybody that listens to Hello, somebody, they know my love languages, quotes and scriptures. And then Chris, I want you to respond to it. And then also lastly, I want you to tell people what they can do to be involved, to be engaged, and to help you and your colleagues on this justice journey, because justice is a journey, is not a destination. So I'm gonna pull something from Dr King. He's so quotable, But here we go. May I stress a need for courage, intelligent and dedicated leadership. Leaders of sound integrity. Leaders not in love with publicity, but in love with justice. Leaders not in love with money, but in love with humanity. Leaders who can subject to their particular eagles to the greatness of the cause. When I thought about that quote, I thought about you. You are subjecting yourself to the greatness of the cause. That inspiring word comes from the Reverend Dr Martin Luther King, Jr. And another one I have from the Book of Joshua, the first chapter the ninth verse, and it reads, have I not commanded you be strong and courageous, Do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. And I'm using that scripture in a spiritual sense. I know everybody that's listening to us is not, you know, hail from the Christian tradition. We probably have Buddhists and Muslims and jew sisters and brothers and family and friends, and atheists and agnostics too, you know, people who rock all kinds of different ways. So when I read that, I'm reading it from a spiritual sense of just pouring in to you for the incredible work that you have done and what you are continuing to do. So if you can react to both of those things and then tell all of us what we can do to be more helpful to you and your colleagues in this fight, well thank you, because you know I love getting that type of spiritual motivation as well, because it's needed in this fight. And and that's what you know I take from them from both of the quotes, is that you know the work that I'm doing is God's work. You know, I started two years ago. And if you would have asked me two and a half years ago, would I'd be sitting here talking to Senator turning out have been like, what are you talking about? Just being unemployed? Being fired, being an advocate for workers for so long and continue to do the work that I'm doing. I want to represent everybody. I want to continue to inspire and continue to bring people together. And that's when my journey is about. It's never been about myself. It's always been about the people, and it's going to continue to be that way, no matter who I'm meeting, whether I'm going to the White House, no matter what celebrity I'm standing next to, shaking hands, But none of that matters to me. And anybody that's been around me and know who I am as a person, know that I'm I'm for the people. I was pushed forward by the people, and the people embrace that. You know, we all list together, you know, solidarity forever. Indeed, solidarity forever. And if people want to get involved, what do you recommend they do? And please share all of your social media handles. Sure absolutely, this is the nation wide call action. Amazon hasn't recognized Junete. You guys are paid holiday. They claim they're standing with the black community. Solidarity with the black community. They need to pay us on our holiday and make that a paid national holiday, making the ninth paid national holiday for the company. Right now is only eight As you know, it's been passed since last year. They made an excuse of the reason they're being so close they couldn't do it in time, But they had a whole year to make that decision and it still hasn't been made yet. So I'm I'm asking everybody to amplify that June teeth is not recognized as a paid holiday from Amazon. Cancel your prime, do whatever you gotta do, amplify that, and we're putting out a petition. Please look for that. It's gonna be on our social media. What's gonna be found on Twitter at Amazon Labor on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok at Amazon Labor Union at Amazon Labor Union dot org and myself at shut underscore down Amazon on Twitter at Chris Small's on Instagram. Well, it has been our absolute honor and pleasure to have you. Chris Small's the one and only the president of the a l You. He is making all kinds of good trouble and we are so glad that he is. Please make sure that you do what you can where you are what you have joined this fight, because when you joined the fight with the Amazon workers all over the world, you are really joining the fight with the house of labor all over the world. Chris smalls, what a pleasure. Baby. You keep the faith and I want you to keep the fight. Turnordinary jordinary things somebody and make it turn up believing some turnings, giving us jo somebody time. Yeah, changes coming. The pain is nothing trying to shoot for the stars. If you're gonna aim for something, embrace the love for your brother and sister. You need these the mission brush, we need the puzzle. This pictures painted up and frame it up for the world to see. Came to hate it up. Enough is enough, It's enough making changes or enough in turn of a voice of the truth to wise words despire the youth to keep their eyes on the roof. It's the end. Never give up, keep conquering goals to the eye. Intelligence, silver, wisdom is gold. That to the end. Now is your time, Stay firm, don't fold to the a or you need is the three bones. That's what Randie said. Now I'm gonna make sure these words from Randie spread for all the hair. To give it your hair. She can take him to the promised Land. I swear world pieces what they fear, and Queen's to Cleveland Ohio. We're here, Famous, Famous, Turning any quality Brandell, Hello, Somebody you need to turn, Spanning Somebody, Ship and Turnings, Hell, Somebody you need to turn. Times Great Try Brothers A great more hand. Hello Somebody is a production of I Heart Radio and the Black Effect Network. For more podcast from our heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
