What's Flawed about Perfectionism with Dr. Greg Chasson

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:00.959
Hello, folks.
00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:12.400
Thanks for joining us on Head Inside Mental Health, featuring conversations about mental health and substance use treatment with experts, advocates, and professionals from across the country sharing their thoughts and insights on the world of behavioral health care.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:17.839
Broadcasting on WPVM 1037, The Voice of Asheville Independent Commercial Free Radio.
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:21.359
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host, therapeutic consultant, behavioral health expert.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:25.039
It is my pleasure to welcome friend and treatment professional, Dr.
00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:26.320
Greg Chasson.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.160
With his PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Houston, Dr.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:35.439
Chasson is a full professor and licensed board-certified psychologist at the University of Chicago.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:44.079
He is one of the world's leading authorities on transforming compulsive and impulsive behaviors with an international reputation as an in-to-man professional trainer.
00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:45.920
As an active scholar, Dr.
00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:53.920
Chasson has published 70-plus scientific publications and carried out grant-funded research projects in the field of OCD and related disorders.
00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:06.400
Greg is also the author of an award-winning leadership book on perfectionism called Flawed: Why Perfectionism is a challenge for management, available at flawedbook.com and wherever print, e, and audio books are sold.
00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:06.879
Dr.
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:08.959
Chasson, welcome to the show.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:10.319
Thanks for having me.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:12.640
Appreciate you uh taking the time today.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:34.480
And um I'm, you know, we we we got to meet, I guess it's now a couple of years ago, two or three years, almost three years ago, when you presented at a conference, uh, the autism research conference down in uh Hollywood Beach, well, that was that's sponsored and put on by the folks down there at uh at uh New Directions for Young Adults.
00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:44.640
Uh and they have you come in because the people who are on the spectrum, they work, that's their population, of course, uh really do suffer from a lot of OCD.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:02:00.480
Um but the first time I got to see you, which was really uh really cool, was when you you got to talk about the topic that's here in your book, which is flawed why perfectionism is a challenge for management, which is cool.
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.319
Um I've gotten to dip into it.
00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:04.319
I'm not finished yet, but I've dipped into it.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:12.560
But you know, the whole like quote, perfectionism is the enemy of good and that it prevents people from getting things accomplished.
00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:18.240
Give me the you know, I I also happen to know you well enough because we we got to present again.
00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:22.000
You presented again at the same conference, and and I got to present there as well.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:26.960
You and I sat down for dinner and um our wives talk more than we did, which is great.
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.879
Um but you also buried the conversation, didn't I?
00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:33.759
Oh yeah.
00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:35.120
Well, I mean you're frozen.
00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:40.479
My my social collateral kind of goes up whenever I bring my wife to things.
00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:41.280
So they let me know.
00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:43.360
Yeah, well that's why I'm better than the wife to things, yeah.
00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:44.159
Right?
00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:45.439
Exactly.
00:02:45.919 --> 00:03:05.520
Um, so you know, the thing that the thing that occurs to me, and the thing that you were talking about is this, you know, as perfectionism is uh is is this challenge for management principles, and that you've taken that over to serving some pretty complex, I mean, your work serves pretty complex individuals.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:10.960
Like you work with some of the like people that are really struggling really hard.
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:18.000
What is it that caused you to jump over to to produce this book and kind of take it to a management principles area?
00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.680
Like what did you where is the where was the start point and where was the parallel?
00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:22.879
Where did what got you started?
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:30.560
That's a great question because that Todd tells me how much you are in sync and in tune with the mental health profession and the community.
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:46.879
Because I don't know that I've ever gotten a similar question like that from your standard podcaster, because to them, it they don't see that this is a direct translation from a clinical world into something that is more of a lay world.
00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:55.360
And so that question doesn't even come to their mind, but I'm happy to answer it because it was a happy sort of development and evolution.
00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:58.159
I mean, I'm in the world of OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder.
00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:06.719
I direct the clinical services, uh the psychosocial services over at the University of Chicago as a faculty member and psychologist.
00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:23.600
And we see the some of the most severe cases of obsessive compulsive disorder in related conditions, things like health anxiety, hoarding, body dysmorphic disorder, skin picking, hair pulling, and just OCD proper, which can get extremely severe.
00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:36.639
And part of the OCD spectrum is severe instances of perfectionism and getting stuck on fear of making mistakes and being responsible for bad things happening.
00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:40.480
And so it's not synonymous with OCD perfectionism.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:45.279
But if you think about a Venn diagram, you have OCD and you have perfectionism that overlap.
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.240
And in that center, it's a ton of overlap.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:05:00.480
Not everyone with OCD has perfectionism, and not everyone with perfectionism has OCD, but it is this area that drew me because of my own personal experience with perfectionism growing up that I'm happy to talk about.
00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:05.920
But also professionally in the world of OCD, you see it a ton.
00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:11.759
And so it is something that I've worked on clinically and personally for years.
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:27.519
And I have this entire framework based on evidence, evidence-based approach from a cognitive behavioral perspective, that really I think provides a very palatable way of thinking about perfectionism that patients really gravitate to.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:33.519
And so when I was teaching my students how to provide treatment for perfectionism, at one point they stopped me down.
00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.720
They're like, dude, because all my students call me dude, dude.
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:37.839
Right, of course.
00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.560
Dude, you should write this down.
00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.720
And I that's when I started thinking, oh, maybe, maybe I should, maybe I should.
00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:46.399
And that's a good idea.
00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:46.959
Yeah.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:51.279
And so I wrote it down, but I as I was writing, I was like, I can't write this for everyone on the planet.
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:57.680
I need to kind of come up with an audience, a domain to for for applying this.
00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.959
And I thought of leadership and workplace because that's where you see this a lot.
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:12.399
And you know, it wasn't really a huge stretch to translate a lot of the clinical terms and phenomena to the workplace setting to provide a guide and roadmap for people who might see this in the workplace.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:26.319
This never in it doesn't really re it did not register with me until you just said it that perfectionism and OCD are different.
00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:32.639
And that there's, you know, they have this big Venn diagram crossover, and they've got a lot of territory they share with one another.
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:37.759
What's the difference between perfectionism and and obsessive-compulsive disorder?
00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:39.600
What is the difference in your mind?
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.720
And and clinically speaking, you know, what's the definition there?
00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:52.160
Yeah, perfectionism really can be multifaceted in that you don't necessarily need to have traditional obsessions and compulsions.
00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:56.720
The thoughts that come to you don't need to feel intrusive or like they're invading into your territory.
00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:58.879
That's the characteristic of OCD, right?
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:05.120
You're walking around and all of a sudden you have a thought that attacks you, that feels inconsistent with who you are and what you want to be thinking about.
00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.639
That is OCD obsessions in a nutshell, right?
00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:12.160
And then you do things to try to calm yourself when those thoughts strike.
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.199
So you try to engage in behaviors to neutralize them.
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:29.519
You wash excessively if you have an intrusive thought about getting sick, or if you have a thought about murdering someone that makes you feel appalled and horrible as a human, you might do things to protect yourself or the people around you.
00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:33.600
Maybe you hide all the knives in your house or you avoid certain people that you have thoughts about.
00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:41.519
And so those are very classic, what we call ego-dystonic, which is basically saying that they're not consistent with what you want to be thinking about.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.759
They're very alien to you and they're very disturbing.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:50.079
Some people with perfectionism have those types of perfectionistic thoughts.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:52.720
I got to do this right or bad things will happen.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:54.560
It feels alien to them.
00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.160
It feels really inconsistent with what they want to be thinking about.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:04.639
But on the other hand, there's a lot of people with perfectionism where their thoughts are completely consistent with their worldview, right?
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:06.000
It's not alien to them.
00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:07.360
It's not intrusive.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.920
They have thoughts of this just is the way the world works.
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:10.879
I need to have this perfect.
00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:11.920
I cannot make mistakes.
00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.399
I should do it this way and I shouldn't do it that way.
00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:20.160
Those kinds of thoughts are not aligned with an OCD way of thinking, right?
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.399
OCD is very intrusive and inconsistent.
00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:27.120
And so you have types of perfectionism that don't map on to OCD very well.
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:31.680
And then of course there's OCD that doesn't have any connection with perfectionism, right?
00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:38.559
That you have people fearing all sorts of things that has not that has nothing to do with responsibility and fear of mistakes.
00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.120
And so there really isn't a perfect overlap.
00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.000
Uh, but there is a lot of overlap sometimes.
00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:56.399
Well, and it's, you know, uh in working with clients that we serve and uh on the on the mental health side, I've certainly you know been witness to clients that I had one client who suffered from pretty terrible schizophrenia.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.440
Um and he suffered from OCD, and he he's a big baseball fan.
00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.639
So he would in order for his team right?
00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:05.200
Yeah.
00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:12.879
In order for his team to win, he had to stand on one leg and hold his arms like like he did that for like 36 hours one time.
00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:15.840
So that he could wow, that's a that's impressive.
00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:19.200
Uh that's impressive and sad at the same time.
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.200
But also, was his name No Mar Garcia Para?
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:22.720
Because that would make a lot of sense to me.
00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:23.120
Right.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:29.039
That would that's an old reference for those who are your older listeners.
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:34.080
He's got a he has a little investment in why he wants that game to come outright.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:34.799
Right, right.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:36.559
Slight amount of investment.
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:40.559
That might be that crossover of perfectionism and OCD right there, you know.
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.279
That's a magical that that's a signal of OCD for sure.
00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:49.840
But I think the lay public, you know, they use OCD to talk about perfectionism.
00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:56.240
That's there's there's there's this there's this loose kind of association there without a differentiation.
00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:12.480
And I think it's like you say, you heard me ask a question that's never been asked because a lot of people don't make these connections between something that they use in their common terminology and something that people you know experience at clinical levels that's terrible, that's um impacting their lives.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:32.399
Now, when you you know, as you went into this audience that it that that experiences perfectionism, they might experience aspects of OCD because there's this line where if they don't get it perfect, then they start having the thoughts and the thoughts become disturbing, right?
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:40.080
Um or and they and then it starts to become disorder when that person can't control the way that makes them feel.
00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:41.919
Yes, absolutely.
00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:47.519
Uh how do you how do you bridge this clinical information?
00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.879
Because this is a struggle that we all have, I think, for treatment professionals.
00:10:50.960 --> 00:11:01.919
How do you bridge a lot of this clinical information in a way that is receivable to folks that are on performance ends and management ends and kind of regular regular quote unquote regular public, right?
00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:03.279
Yeah, it's a great question.
00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:04.559
It's really not easy.
00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:05.440
It's iterative.
00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:14.720
And one of the things that has been one of the biggest roadblocks to me getting out there is people assuming that because I'm a professor, I'm gonna be boring as hell when I go up to talk about things.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.799
I've seen you speak, you are not boring.
00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:17.600
I can say that.
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:26.559
I mean, people think that you're gonna be just this really stuffy, esoteric, you know, and just even the word esoteric probably already makes me esoteric.
00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:35.360
But the idea is that people people just assume this because it is a tough skill to translate some of this stuff to a lay audience.
00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:50.399
And it's you know, it takes practice, it takes iterative, uh, iterative, um, you know, make making mistakes and not being perfectionistic, so to speak, and going up there and I, you know, reading people's facial expressions and trying to be empathic and like, what is this person talking about?
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.720
And being able to see that look on their face and going, okay, oh, this clearly did not hit.
00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.039
Uh so let me rephrase that.
00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:58.559
But yeah, it's tough.
00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:03.600
And I think it helps to understand that perfectionism is on a continuum.
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:05.440
There's more and less in everybody, right?
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:07.039
We all have some elements of it.
00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:13.200
Maybe some people have very little, but some people have extreme paralyzing amounts of it, but most of us fall somewhere in the middle.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:23.840
And it doesn't really become debilitating until it gets in the way of your functioning and causes you not to do things or maybe causes tremendous stress uh for you and the people around you.
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.720
And unless it's meeting that marker, it's just part of everyday experience.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.840
And so everyone sees perfectionism, either in themselves or the people around them.
00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.480
And so that part hasn't been hard, right?
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:41.440
People have an understanding of what I'm talking about once I get into it.
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:50.000
Now, what they don't understand is the breadth or sort of the how far reaching this type of perfectionism goes.
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:53.120
They see it as people being afraid to make mistakes.
00:12:53.200 --> 00:13:11.120
But my as my book goes into flawed, it really has tentacles that extend far, far out into all sorts of characteristics that I'm happy to dive into, but it tends to be this most surprising aspect of of uh of perfectionism when I speak to people.
00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:23.120
Well, and you know, the I So I have a background in doing management training and facilitating experiential experience-based training and development.
00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:29.200
So this this whole aspect of bridging over into management's really um really interesting to me.
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:39.840
And so the you know, we start to dive into territory from a person's psychological health to an organization's psychological health.
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:40.399
Right.
00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:55.120
And that, you know, when a person is experiencing levels of perfectionism that start to that start to dance on the edge of disordered, you know, they're they're taking it a little too far.
00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:55.759
Yeah.
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:01.600
One one thing is a lot of the people that they're that are working for them or that they're leading can't follow them there.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:03.200
Yes, yes.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:08.799
Yeah, it's you see it uh organizations are people, right, in general.
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:17.840
So if you have you know, the people you know often think that there's something special, but they're really just or people they're made up of people, right?
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:29.519
And so, yes, you need to think about social dynamics in addition to individual dynamics, but you definitely can have a massive impact on the organization with a display of perfectionistic tendencies.
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:30.639
I mean, you see it all the time.
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:36.480
I mean, perhaps one of the biggest things that I see with perfectionism is procrastination, right?
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.840
Because people get stuck and they don't want to work on things because they're so anxious.
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:41.200
I don't know what you're talking about.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.200
Yeah, we'll get to it later.
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:45.919
We'll get to it later.
00:14:46.159 --> 00:15:00.720
But yeah, um the you know, and of course, procrastination just brings everything to a grinding halt, but not even just procrastination, even just slowed processes, just just an absolute slowdown because you're trying to find the perfect process, the most efficient, the most effective.
00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:08.399
And of course, the irony of is that in doing so, you've just slowed yourself down to a grinding halt, the most ineffective or inefficient.
00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:16.159
And so you get these uh cogs in the wheel that just bring everything down to a halt.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.360
And that is extremely costly for organizations.
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.240
And it's a dollar, there's a dollar value on that.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:27.120
And the the other area that people forget is turnover.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:46.399
If you're working for a perfectionist and they are rigid and rule-bound rather than principle bound, and project moralistic standards on other people, like they expect you to and should be a certain way, it's a hard environment to work for someone that's self-righteous and sanctimonious, which is what that looks like.
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.759
And so you get a lot of turnover, you get a ton.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:54.480
And of course, that's been quantified, that's not cheap in any fashion.
00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:04.720
Well, and you're also talking about, you know, you you go over to the development sign, there's there's all the you know, Peter Sangang and Tom Peters and all these guys they talk about like the ladder of inference, for example.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:13.200
It's you're assigning a person when they start to go over a line in perfectionism, there's a values assignment to it.
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.919
You know, perfect has a meaning.
00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:21.279
It's not just a mark, it's not it's not just a benchmark for people to achieve.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:24.159
Hey, this is a standard of quality we want to achieve.
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:29.840
You know, if you're a manufacturer or you're an engineer, standards of quality are part and parcel for your world, right?
00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.159
So that's healthy, that's okay.
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:44.480
But then you start to assign meaning and value to a professionistic standard, if it starts to go over the line, it's almost like you get it's almost like an organization can really get lost.
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:48.240
How do you, in your mind, like how do you treat that?
00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.799
Like, how do you treat that with an organization?
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.000
Yeah, you first, you know, yeah, that's right.
00:16:54.080 --> 00:17:02.639
The I don't know that they're dramatically different in terms of of what you would need to do, but you first would need to dissect and figure out where this is happening.
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:12.640
You know, in my adventures getting the word out about perfectionism in organizations, I've really learned that you don't see a ton of it at the tippy top of the organization.
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:19.759
You don't see a lot of it at the CEO level because you just really self-select.
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.720
You can't be a CEO and be terribly perfectionistic.
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:28.720
You have to be willing to take quick failures and learn and move on.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:38.799
And the for the most of the CEOs that I've talked to, and there have been a lot of them, the idea of perfectionism, they've had the hardest time understanding it because they're like, I don't understand people who are perfectionistic.
00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:40.720
They're just, it's not in their blood.
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:49.519
However, you go one notch down into the C-suite, CEO, CFOs, you know, CTOs, CHOs, they are the perfectionists, right?
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:51.680
Because highly perfectionistic, right?
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:52.240
Yeah.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:58.240
And so the CEOs actually, when you see a perfectionist uh CEO, that does not last very long.
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:02.480
I've heard stories about this where the entire organization just grinds to a halt.
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:14.880
Way too rigid, not innovative, not risk-taking, hard to work for people like that because of the uh should statements that come with the perfectionism, like you should do it this way, you should do it that way.
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.759
Just that really brings down the morale of the entire organization.
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:35.519
It's really when you get a healthy organization where at the top you have some flexibility and some of what you described, striving for perfection, but not holding yourself to that value and striving is not the same thing as perfectionism.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.160
Striving for excellence is not the same thing, right?
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:50.960
And so you when you start to see that, that's when you get into the organization, you have to find the pinpoints of where this is occurring, certain leaderships, certain um processes and funnels within the organization.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.759
You can find pretty quickly where the slow points are and where the grinds are.
00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:06.079
And that's where you need to start talking about how this impacts teams and the process and providing strategies and new frameworks for thinking about this.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:10.880
And those some so some of those frameworks are at the culture level, not just at the individual level.
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.559
When you're talking about cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, really in the end.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:16.559
For but for an organization.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:26.400
Um, so I my question to you is, and I'm I'm super this is a topic that I have a lot of interest in and I've done lots of reading on and everything else.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.680
So I'm I'm really curious about some of the some of the stuff that you do.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.319
Like, what is the delivery for an organ?
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.920
Like, I know what cognitive behavioral therapy looks like for an individual.
00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:36.480
Yep.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.480
Uh, but what is the delivery for an organization?
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:47.519
What is a CBT-based strategy delivery intervention look like for an organization?
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:48.480
I'm glad you asked.
00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:50.720
That's a great question, also one I've never heard before.
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, it's good because people don't understand what CBT is or how it translates, and that was a great question.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:11.119
I'll give you a great example because my entire book and the strategies in there are based on evidence-based approaches like CBT, acceptance and commitment therapy, essentially exposure and response prevention, which is the gold standard treatment.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:12.400
A little ERP for people.
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.960
A little ERP for OCD and anxiety disorders, which is, you know, we're talking success rates in the 80 to 90 percent.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:21.759
I mean, that's unheard of in most mental health treatments, right?
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:28.319
And so I I would be stupid not to try to translate those principles and strategies to an organization.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:29.519
And that's exactly what I've done.
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.440
Well, list I I mean, or lazy.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:35.119
You might be just lazy, you know, you might you might not just want to do it.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:36.400
Yeah, all right.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:21:00.240
And so what I've done is really tried to create a framework and language that doesn't dive heavy into the clinical jargon and essentially camouflages the principles in a way that seem palatable for people in an organization that don't want to be labeled with some sort of horrible diagnosis and don't want, you know, they don't, or they don't want to even think about this as a mental health treatment.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.559
And so what I'll, for example, I'll give you an example.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:07.680
I use something called the emphasis framework for helping organizations and individuals.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:12.799
The emphasis framework, if you really boil it down, is exposure and response prevention.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:14.640
But I don't tell people that, right?
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.599
Even though I just told the entire public that right now in this talk.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:18.400
Right, right, right.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:24.240
But essentially, what I do is I think about tasks in three different buckets.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.359
There's emphasis A, emphasis B, and emphasis C.
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:27.920
All right.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.599
Emphasis A is the give it everything you got, 110%.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:33.279
Right?
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.480
This is this is truly where you put your energy, your effort, everything.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.039
Then there's emphasis B, the get or done strategy.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:42.240
Just get or done.
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:48.160
Doesn't need to be perfect, doesn't need to be garbage, probably for things that just need to get done that you can't completely ignore.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:49.119
Right.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:54.160
Then there's emphasis C, which is the let's not do it at all strategy, right?
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:55.599
Like let's just skip it.
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.480
And there's a time and place for all three of these.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
I am completely acknowledging.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:05.200
To judgment or criticism because there's really truly an adaptive time for each of these, right?
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:10.720
And it's based on your values, what's really important to you or your organization, right?
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:19.920
So if you're planning your wedding and that's really important to you, if you're trying to study to get into med school, the MCAT test might be really important for you to give it 110%.
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:25.920
You know, whenever I go on podcasts, I give it 110%, you know, those kinds of things.
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:31.599
But if you can't do that for everything, there's just not enough resource, right?
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.480
Emphasis C, I'm gonna skip B for a second.
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:37.359
Emphasis C also has a time and place.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.079
Just nothing, not everything is worth your time and energy.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:41.759
We're just not gonna do that, right?
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:42.079
Right.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.720
I never open my junk mail right in the recycling.
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.920
I never answer the customer service satisfaction survey at the end of my call with Verizon.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:51.200
Sorry, Verizon.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.440
Verizon a sponsor on your podcast.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:54.319
I'm so sorry.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:58.880
You know, we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll have to dub that out and talk to Verizon.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.160
If they're willing to give us some dollars for the promo, then maybe we can keep it up, right?
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.200
But these are things that it's just not worth my time.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.640
I've determined based on my values that I just don't necessarily want to do those things.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.440
Now, if occasionally I will if I want to say something, but it's just not worth my time.
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.839
So I'll purposely emphasis C that based on strategy, based on values, right?
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:31.119
Emphasis B is where most things typically fall to be adaptive, because a common pattern among people with perfectionism or in organizations with perfectionism is that everything becomes emphasis A.
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:37.119
There's no way of sort of figuring out and triaging where tasks go.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.599
And so they try to emphasise A everything.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.599
And what happens is that that's just not possible.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:48.720
And so things get forced or pushed into emphasis C, not because of your values, but because of your anxiety and perfectionism.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:50.559
You lost your time and your energy.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.799
Yeah, you know, you didn't make an intentional decision about it in advance.
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:55.599
Exactly.
00:23:55.759 --> 00:24:01.759
And so your anxieties and perfectionism is driving everything in the organization or in your individual task lists.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:21.839
And so what I do is I go in there and I talk about let's do some exercises where we start to put these tasks into buckets to essentially um prioritize, and then you're going to purposefully do things in an emphasis B way where you typically would want to do them emphasis A.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:22.960
Right.
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:26.799
That is camouflaged exposure therapy.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:28.960
I know it's hard to do that.
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:29.920
That's pretty cool.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:41.039
No, I well, the question that occurs to me is you know, I think about all the I think about the companies that I've worked with in the past.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:49.279
Um, you know, I spent a decade doing corporate facilitation, you know, from from engineers to CEOs and everything else.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:58.319
And I think about like what are the things that we processed when we, you know, because uh the experien experiential methodologies is ultimately this microcosm environment.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.200
Let's give you a problem to solve and let's watch how you solve it.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:01.680
Yeah.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:01.920
Yeah.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:08.720
And let's talk about the the the problems you experience, the frustration, how does that translate to your work world?
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:14.240
What are some solutions that you have for for adjusting your culture so this works better, right?
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:22.079
And I'm having a hard time thinking of a place where you know this approach that you're talking about doesn't fit.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:23.359
I exactly.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:24.480
I mean, honestly.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:30.640
I know because it fits at the individual level and what are organizations, just a bunch of individuals, right?
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:31.359
And so I've seen this.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:36.480
I've seen this work in my therapy office tremendously.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:38.160
And I'm like, why would this not translate?
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:39.599
Of course it translates, right?
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:44.400
Well, I mean, you're also talking about beh- I mean, you're talking about human behavioral stuff, obviously.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:48.319
And sometimes you have people unable to manage conflicts.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.519
Sometimes there's personality, you know, divides that happen within an organization.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:58.880
But in many ways, they're they're they're kind of like you say, they're this values misalignment.
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:06.319
And it's almost if you go in, if you go into a conflict model, you know, conflict model looks pretty close to the model you're talking about.
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:19.279
You've got you've got, you know, collaborative approach conflict resolution approaches, you've got avoidant conflict, you know, it's like and you know, either I'm gonna force my way and get my way, yeah.
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.960
I'm gonna I'm gonna negotiate some kind of middle middle in-between, or I'm gonna avoid the problem entirely.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.079
Like you're talking about the same model, essentially.
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.880
Yeah, well, yours is more of an interpersonal model, right?
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:32.880
And that is something I talk about in the book.
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.960
I get into this when I really talk about in my world, we call that assertiveness training, right?
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:45.680
Like how do you how do you interact with people in a way that doesn't cost you too much social capital, but also makes you feel like you're self-respecting, right?
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.319
How do you how do you compromise?
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.640
How do you do things that don't cost you too much, but also don't cost you in your self-worth?
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.759
And this is very much related to kind of what you're describing.
00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:01.279
And yeah, it's again another way of translating what I see in the clinical world into an organizational setting.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:17.359
And in this particular example, what you're describing very well could have originated in the in the corporate world and has influenced the clinical world in the other direction, because I I I do think that there's a back and forth between what, you know, quote unquote the real world and the non in the clinical world, right?
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:41.440
Well, and I, you know, you got to speak to uh working with individuals not only suffering from OCD, but also on the spectrum at our conference, um, and talked about some approaches that we're interested in, including the use of AI, uh, and and the this interpersonal measure that goes into the rigidity and some of the OCD and everything else.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.839
We see that in organizational environments.
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:44.799
We definitely do.
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.480
And I and I think we're seeing a lot more, honestly.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:58.720
Like I think we're seeing a culture of people, we're seeing, you know, millennials and all the gins, down from down from Gen X, of course.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:27:59.759
We're perfect.
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:01.519
Right.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:03.599
Can't beat that generation.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.400
No, you can't beat that generation, leave those guys alone.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:06.720
Right.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:38.960
Um, but all the you know, all these folks are coming out, and there's, you know, we could talk about screens and we're talking about anxiety, and we could talk about all these kind of conditions, and they take them into the work world, and you see all these problems arising that are behavioral, but they're all rooted in a lot of this stuff, which is you know, a person, a person has a values alignment, and and they and I here's a good ex here's a great example, I think, that we see in the world, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, but um gender identity.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:57.680
Yes, you've you've you've got a large component of our of our society that's you know very offended the moment that they get you know misgendered, deadnamed, um, you know, slighted ultimately in any way.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:03.039
And and a lot of what I see at least, and I'm not a person who struggles with this.
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:08.079
I have a very personal connection to this topic myself because I have family members who are trans.
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:14.720
Um, but the the thing that happens for them is they don't they don't experience the world in the same way.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.200
I'm thankful for that because it looks very hard.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:17.680
Right.
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:27.119
Um, they don't experience the world as constantly uh assaulting them, yeah, as constantly offending them and trying to make the world.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.920
In fact, I have clients right now that you know the their orientation, the world needs to understand me.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.400
And if they don't validate me, then it's for naught.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:39.039
You know, that they they go pretty far down into these dark holes with that stuff.
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:39.440
Yeah.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.279
And it's like, okay, there's perfectionism in there.
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:44.720
Oh, yeah.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:45.680
I agree.
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:52.240
And I very much appreciate you bringing up very light topics today, very non-charged.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:54.720
I told you this wasn't a gotcha interview.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:55.440
You know what I mean?
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.720
Okay, Katie Couric, are you trying to cancel both of us at the same time?
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.359
Um I'm not saying people should be misgendered.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.599
I'm not opposing that at all.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:06.799
I'm just playing with you.
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:26.960
Uh, it actually dovetails very nicely into another area of perfectionism that I think is misunderstood and underappreciated, which is people with perfectionistic tendencies get hyper-focused on rules and at the expense of sometimes the underlying principles on which those rules are based.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:35.039
Meaning they get rigid around things needing to be done a certain way because they quote unquote should be that way.
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:39.680
And they sort of approach rules as universal truths, right?
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:43.279
But often they lose sight of the principles that underlie those rules.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.079
I always give a really dumb example of this, right?
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:47.920
So you're at the dumb examples.
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:48.640
I need them.
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:49.359
Yeah.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.359
Well, you're you're at the community pool.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:52.240
It's summertime.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:31:03.599
I know it's hard because it's winter right now, but imagine you're at the summer uh summer pool or the community pool in the summer, and you see a kid drowning, and you look to your right, and the lifeguards are, you know, flirting with each other as they do and not paying attention.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.720
And you look to the left and the parents are on their cell phones not paying attention as they do, and you're like, oh crap, this is up to me.
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:16.640
So you start running towards the pool and you look down and you decide to let the kid drown.
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:21.839
And someone comes up to you afterwards and says, Why the hell did you do that?
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:23.200
You could have saved that kid.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:31.680
And the person says, or you say, Oh, I'm sorry, I ate within 30 minutes, and it says no swimming within 30 minutes of eating.
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.200
Right?
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:34.640
Right there on the rules.
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.319
And now first of all, there's no running.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:39.440
There was no running, and I wasn't.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.559
There's no running, so I I I ambled up to the pool and walked.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:49.359
Um, yeah, there's so you know, first of all, I have to explain that sometimes pools have rules that say you can't eat before going in the pool within 30 minutes.
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:54.000
Because apparently, and I learned this from the Red Cross, that rule is totally bow bogus.
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:57.920
That is a a totally mythical, like that is not true.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:02.319
They apparently they don't want you to cramp up and drown, but Red Cross says that that's bogus.
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:03.839
Anyway, so feel free to eat as many people.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.759
Really, they just don't want you to have they don't want you to.
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:07.440
There was another one.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:09.039
Right, right.
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:19.839
Um and so, but the idea here is that there's a rule that you so rigidly followed that you lost sight of the principle on which that rule was based.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:23.119
The principle there is public safety, right?
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:25.519
Or or the the value is public safety.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.960
And the principle is let's all be safe in the community pool, right?
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:31.279
Let's help others if they're in need, right?
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:32.319
You know.
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.319
And the the but what did you do when you let the kid drown?
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.440
Well, you completely violated that value and that principle.
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:47.440
So you were so adherent to this rule that you actually violated the principle that served to create that rule in the first place.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:53.119
And so I know it's a really dumb example, but it illustrates what I'm trying to explain because I see this everywhere.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:00.880
And the other thing is that the person probably thinks that you know, don't go in the pool before 30 minutes of eating.
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:02.319
That's the value.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.640
They've missed they've misplaced them.
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:05.839
Yes.
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:06.799
Exactly.
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:15.200
They get hyper focused on that rule, or they believe that that is the unspoken truth about reality that needs to that somehow it cannot be broken.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.519
It's as, you know, and that's the problem, is that's not how the world works.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:24.160
Rules are suggestions, and I'm not saying we should get rid of rules, right?
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.440
But rules don't always make the most sense.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:35.839
And people have done a ton of research on this looking at that uh, you know, the classic problem of would you steal medicine to save your wife?
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.000
You know, it's stealing, it's quote unquote illegal.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:42.400
It's not quote unquote illegal, it is illegal, right?
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:43.920
You're taking someone else's property.
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.279
Is that morally wrong?
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:47.680
Maybe, but you're saving your wife.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:48.559
Is that permissible?
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:51.440
And so it's this classic question.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:07.440
And the the problem is that people on the spectrum, for example, or people with perfectionism that get really rigid, or people with OCD that get really rigid, they sometimes have a really hard time and they get stuck on these rules and they can't act on the principles, especially when they violate those rules.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:12.400
And what makes it even worse is when they project those standards onto other people.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:16.960
So if you they start expecting them, you know, the same behavior, right?
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:23.760
So you are walking around telling people that they need to be at work on time, and instead you see it as they need to be work at exactly at seven o'clock.
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:30.400
And if they show up at 701 and you're policing them, you're not gonna make a lot of friends, right?
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:31.679
And you're missing the point.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.800
What if that person had a flat tire and they made it in at 701?
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:35.760
That's pretty damn good.
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:36.480
You know what I mean?
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:38.880
Early's the new late, right?
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:39.519
So whatever.
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:41.679
Yeah, whatever, right.
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.519
And so you're walking around policing people on moralistic and rigid morals.
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:54.079
Like you're you're gonna have a really hard time in a culture like that keeping people, and you're gonna have a hard time making friends.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:55.280
Yeah.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:04.480
And I think that you also, you know, in the in the world where a person may not be in management, um, but they're they're experiencing these challenges.
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:09.199
They end up what I'm seeing, this is this is interesting to me.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:17.599
Um, I think I honestly, and you probably you may or may not know of Jordan Peterson, and I'm not trying to promote the guy or anything like that.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:18.079
Yeah.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.599
Um, but you know, he and the trans folks got they've gotten into it.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:28.960
Um and I and I yeah, well, he and he says this.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:47.840
And he's not wrong, because he says the same thing that you and I just talked about, which is you know, when you start observing rules in in you know, without looking at the greater picture, you know, it's like we're gonna force everyone to to observe, you know, gender.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.559
When you know you've got to you've got to observe a person's gender.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:36:00.719
It's like if you make rules about people having to say things or do things like this, that's actually dictatorial, and you're establishing a dictatorial environment.
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:01.840
He's not wrong.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:08.000
Like you're misplacing the the the spirit of what we need to do, which is accept people and do all these things.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:13.920
But what is his response is, if you see these exchanges that he has, is that he's a complete jerk.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:22.239
I mean, he he comes at them with this like, and you are not analytical enough to be seeing the root of your problem.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:36.639
And he he actually gives them a response while not inaccurate from the spirit of it and the delivery of it and everything else, lands utterly flat and disenfranchises everybody that he's talking to.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:41.199
Well, hypocritical because he's doing the very thing that he's blaming them for, right?
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:45.840
He's getting stuck on his moral crusade and he's not uh right.
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:47.199
Right, right.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:49.119
He's like, You're not looking at the entire problem.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.119
I can't even talk to you, you're so dysregulated.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:53.360
You know, he's just he's dissing this person.
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:54.239
He's a psychologist.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.039
I'm like, dude, you're a jerk, is what you are.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:05.920
Yeah, that's the kind of self-righteousness and sanctimony that I think people can look like when they're getting stuck on on these moral rules, right?
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:14.000
And so we get this almost a cacophony of of of these reactions in our world that's happening.
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:20.960
I you know, I can imagine that in an organization that just that tanks production really quickly.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.840
Yeah, you can't get anywhere, you can't get anything done, right?
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:24.559
Right.
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:30.639
Well, because so how do you what's the big one of the biggest stressors in any environment is going to be interpersonal dynamics, right?
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:32.559
And and right interpersonal stress.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.719
So what's the you know, and with a little bit of time we have, I'm sure we spend a lot of time on this topic because I'm super curious about it.
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.719
Um, and I love to hear about the work that you're doing with organizations and people in general.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:56.079
But you know, when you when we talk about interpersonal dynamics, if we come if we approach it this frame that you've named, what's the intervention in a social dynamic, in a social environment, say in a work environment?
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:58.639
What is the intervention for folks like that?
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.360
Um and for the or the culture?
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:03.039
Like how would you approach that?
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:09.440
Well, a lot of it then comes back to how to dress up evidence-based cognitive favor therapy approaches.
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:22.960
So to come full circle, a lot of the work that I'll do on these things like rules versus principles versus values and being careful with approaching people in a moralistic way and how to do so differently and approaching it from an assertive framework.
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:35.360
A lot of it is based on CBT and some of the things we do in, for example, acceptance and commitment therapy or in cognitive therapy, where we break down assumptions about how the world works, right?
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:37.360
And rapid resolution.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.960
I mean, there's a little rapid resolution, sounds like there's some of that as well.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:41.519
Right.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:46.320
And so it really comes down to helping people change their worldview.
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:52.400
And sometimes you do that through behavior, and sometimes you do that through Socratic questioning and teaching them a different framework.
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:58.079
And so everything that I do in organizations stems from the work that we do in the therapy office.
00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:02.719
It just isn't called that because I think it's not necessarily the same.
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:14.159
I'm not treating disorders, so to speak, and I'm not, you got to approach this a little bit more delicately because this is a you know a work setting and it needs to be palatable for groups, not just individuals, right?
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:19.840
And so, but I will sneakily put in evidence-based, right?
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:29.679
Because when we talk about control, I talk about a control a whole lot because I think a lot of perfectionism is this misperception that there's more control than there really is.
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:35.199
And what is the one of the best approaches for dealing with misperceptions of control?
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.840
Acceptance and commitment therapy, right?
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.280
And approaching things from a cognitive diffusion standpoint.
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:52.960
Now, I'm getting jargony, but the idea is how do you help people separate themselves from their thoughts and understand that just because you have a thought and a belief doesn't mean that it's reality and that it's not you necessarily.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:58.800
People have to be coached into practicing mentalization, essentially, thinking about their thinking.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.079
Like, you know, it's like, okay, let's break this down a little bit, shall we?
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:12.320
All those metacognitive strategies and the thinking about your thinking and acceptance and seeing things that you can and being able to figure out what can I control here and what can't I control?
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:14.880
And how do I try to control the things I can.
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.119
You know what Socrates called it.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:18.880
What did Socrates call it?
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:21.760
They or they called it about Socrates' methodologies.
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:24.480
They called it Socratic midwifery.
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:26.559
Ah, Socratic midwifery.
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:26.880
Interesting.
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:35.440
You you you birth a new perspective from a person's misaligned thoughts and values by asking them a series of questions.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.719
You you you birth them into a new That's interesting.
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:40.079
I mean, I know Socratic questions.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:44.079
Socratic midwifery, which is a look that up sometimes.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:45.280
You'll you'll enjoy it.
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:47.119
Um Dr.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.599
Chasson, uh, it has been a real pleasure.
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.719
I always enjoy talking to you, but thanks for taking time to be on the show.
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:53.679
Thanks for having me.
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:55.840
And appreciate some of the the Katie Kirk questions.
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:56.559
Those were awesome.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:57.199
Right, right.
00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.239
You know, I told you it wasn't a gotcha interview, but it was really a setup.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:05.599
So this has been Todd Weatherly on Head Inside Mental Health with Dr.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:09.760
Greg Chasson, WPBM 1037, the voice of Ashville.
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:12.320
Greg, you think absolutely.
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:49.840
I think that the penalty, the pick, I think I picked up it, I've been up, I've been up on the pen, I've been up, I've been so on the last pick, he has to fly away, oh, I want to so long, need to find our way home.
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:56.239
I'll be so lonely elastic, he asked me, need to fall away.
00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:05.679
Oh my home, I want I'll feel so lonely, elasticity, he asked me I need to fall away home, fall by home.