The Boots Before Bootstraps in Recovery with Amanda Koplin

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:01.120
Hello, folks.
00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:13.119
Thanks for joining us on Head Inside Mental Health, featuring conversations about mental health and substance use treatment with experts, advocates, and professionals from across the country sharing their thoughts and insights on the world of behavioral health care.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:18.000
Broadcasting on WPVM 1037, Independent, Commercial, Free Radio.
00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:21.839
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host, therapeutic consultant, and behavioral health expert.
00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:26.879
It is my pleasure to welcome friend and colleague Amanda Coplin to the show.
00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:34.159
Amanda is a mental health entrepreneur, a thought leader who creates innovative solutions to fill gaps in the mental health care system.
00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:46.640
In 2014, she created a created and developed an idea for a mental health urgent care clinic, which she sold back in 2016 to create Coplin Consulting, a nationwide concierge mental health treatment team service.
00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:56.719
Amanda is passionate about helping people achieve mental wellness and creating sustainable support systems and solutions which integrate seamlessly into real life.
00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:11.840
She is a speaker and nationally sought-after consultant who specializes in creating unique treatment plans and recommendations for individuals struggling with psychological concerns such as addiction, eating disorders, lack of motivation, and other issues impacting mental wellness.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:19.920
Amanda attended the University of Oregon for grad for her undergrad, where she received two bachelor's degrees because she's like, you know, has to top it off with two.
00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:25.599
One in psychology and one in women and gender studies, and a certificate in the substance use prevention program.
00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:32.640
She attended Yeshiva University, Albert Einstein's College of Medicine, where she received her master's in mental health counseling.
00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:40.560
Following graduate school, she did in-home counseling for kids in family court and kids charged with felonies in Supreme Court in New York City.
00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:48.159
This is where she learned the impact of working with people in real life and the impact of working with all of the systems involved with a person of concern.
00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:55.040
This is the experience and passion she brings to Coplin Consulting with a mission to help others recover their quality of life.
00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.280
Amanda, welcome to the show.
00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:58.560
Thank you.
00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.439
It's always impressive when someone else reads your bio.
00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:02.560
You're like, is that me?
00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.599
I know it's you know, you're like, who is who are they talking about?
00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:06.560
What are you talking about?
00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.759
Did Chat GPT make me look better than I am?
00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.080
You know, they make us look good, right?
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:14.159
That's what that's better in pictures.
00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:20.000
Um, although, you know, I you're you're very modest and I appreciate that.
00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:27.439
But you and I have gotten to work pretty closely together uh using this conscierious approach, um, which I think is fantastic.
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:42.400
And and we had what I feel to be a lot of great success with the individual that that we worked with that was you know struggling with a variety of issues, familial issues, sobriety, mental health, and needing the kind of wraparound support.
00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:49.680
But but you know, and and you know, for this individual, which is not unique, they had to keep working.
00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:52.319
They couldn't just quit their job, you know.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:03:03.919
So they had to be able to like pull off what was ultimately treatment in their home and while they continued to work, make an income, pay their bills, and do all the things.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:25.919
And it's, you know, theoretically, there the series of systems in in what we would refer to as, you know, you and I work on the private pay side primarily, and the community mental health system supposedly, you know, quote unquote, is designed to do exactly what you're doing for people who, you know, live in our communities and suffer from mental health uh issues and challenges.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:49.520
They, you know, they they're supposed to get treatment, they're supposed to get, you know, bed management and coaching support and act teams, and and if you throw VR into the mix, they're supposed to be, you know, helping them get jobs and and sustain employment as well, not just get the employment, but sustain it, which is kind of the hardest trick to pull, so that they can, you know, pay taxes and contribute and everything else.
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.479
And there's a whole world of politics out there.
00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.080
It's like, well, these people need to get to work.
00:03:54.159 --> 00:04:01.439
I'm like, I tell you what, I'm just gonna give you schizophrenia for a second and see how well it is you fare in getting a job.
00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.439
It's the compassion that people have, it's absurd and ridiculous these days.
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:06.719
That's part of the problem.
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:13.280
But you bring like all these services in and all the stuff in as a team.
00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:15.840
Tell me a little bit about the model.
00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:25.839
Let's talk about the model that works, the one that you've you use on a regular basis to serve the clients that come to you, and and we've been able to witness in our team as well.
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.920
Like, tell me about the model that you're using for your concierge level support.
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:36.879
Well, first off, going back to your comment about like, okay, you know, here are all these expectations.
00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:40.560
Let me slap schizophrenia on you, and then you try to make those happen.
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:47.279
Like, you know, I always say to people, it's like so many people are like, oh, you gotta pick yourself up by your boots, Jason, but they haven't got any boots.
00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:48.639
Like, you haven't got any boots.
00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:49.839
They don't have shoes.
00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.800
Can we just give them some boots?
00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:57.120
Can we start with the boots?
00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:59.839
How about we give them some boots first?
00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.519
And then we can ask them to pick up the boot straps, but right.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:20.000
Um but but back to your other question about the model, I think it's really about designing programs around families in the context of their real life because each family, each person is going to deal with different obstacles.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:29.120
And um I think a lot about the country doctor who used to come out to each family and spend hours at a time.
00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:34.000
Um and they knew the family so intricately and each member of the family and their issues.
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:41.759
And it wasn't this rushed insurance model that was like, okay, here's the code, here's the limit, next, next, next.
00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.279
And you had to see 200 people in order to just break even.
00:05:45.519 --> 00:06:00.879
And so being able to take the time to not only assess but design a plan and then evolve it with the person as they go along and use higher-level professionals who get that uh country doctor feel, right?
00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:04.959
Where they're super invested to the point of even living with people sometimes.
00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:07.920
Um it's a game changer.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:26.879
And I think that the other big piece is um very frequently people forget that a lot of the family members are traumatized people, they just didn't end up in treatment or at a point of such dysfunction that they spiraled down and caused alarms in the system to go off.
00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:31.279
They just are higher functioning and managing the day-to-day.
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:47.519
But having somebody come in and help the whole system to put floaties on and you know, get their head above water and then not only stop drowning, but then say, okay, where's the life raft?
00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.759
We're gonna swim to the life raft, and then we're all saddled together back to shore.
00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:52.560
Yep.
00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:59.040
Um so Taylor Tomlinson talks about float her full her, you know, get your floaties, right?
00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:16.879
So being able to keep the family in mind, and it's one person, one family, um, and they're on a whole journey from the beginning of recovery until the end of like where they're in maintenance, and it slowly ties titrates down with them.
00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:27.759
I think that's the game changer versus a, all right, we're gonna start at 10 hours a week, or you know, we can't go above 10 hours a week, and then in two months we're gonna go to six hours.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:34.480
And, you know, my whole um beginning of my career, all my licensure hours were at community mental health.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.879
It was an alternative to incarceration program.
00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:39.040
There was a whole system that evolved.
00:07:39.120 --> 00:08:06.480
But what I realized is that a lot of these parents were those kids that just grew up and got older, but never got the skills that they needed to be equipped in order to facilitate positive emotional regulation, in order to give consequences that weren't involving physical uh, you know, altercations or hitting, or, you know, like everybody in the system was that kid just at different ages.
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:17.920
And to be able to recognize that everybody's doing their best and not everybody's equipped just because they're a certain age or they have a title of parent, you know, it it's a game changer.
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:37.039
Yeah, I think that you you said something that, you know, I've had this conversation with lots of folks, and we're talking, you know, this great chasm, this divide between, you know, community behavioral health and state funded behavioral health versus private pay behavioral health with some insurance coverage in between that'll exist in between.
00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:43.120
And I think something that occurred to me as you were talking is that our trigger mark is off.
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:54.480
We don't, you know, there's a lot of the person has to reach a certain level of crisis before the system is triggered to respond.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:02.399
And not only is the trigger mark off, and I think police would agree with this, the responder is off.
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.960
Like the trigger mark is the person getting into trouble, right?
00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:08.000
Some kind of trouble.
00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:15.200
They're on they're running around on somebody's property or they're beating on a door or they're they're they're having an episode, you know.
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:25.519
Um, and a lot of times they either end up in one of two places, they'll end up, you know, in front of the police, on in some version of in front of the police, or they end up in the hospital.
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.799
Neither system is designed to actually provide care.
00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.679
They're designed to provide safety.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:41.759
So, you know, the person's theory, you know, they're gonna be they're not gonna do anything if they're incarcerated, they're not gonna do anything if they're in in in h in the hospital theoretically.
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:48.000
So they're designed around these safety marks, they're containers, but they're not care, they're not treatment.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:53.200
I can dope you up with meds and sit you back on the street, doesn't resolve the problem.
00:09:53.440 --> 00:10:07.679
So the trigger mark is off because we we don't go individuals don't know when to go seek help, and the helpers don't necessarily get in front of the individuals who need it in a time frame that is going to be really truly kind of interventive.
00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:12.639
Um, and I you probably see this even, we see this even in conscierge level.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.519
Families come to us when they're in crisis.
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:20.639
It's rare that I get somebody who's pretty proactive about what they're doing.
00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:27.360
I mean, I I I might be able to count, you know, on one hand the number of cases that we're truly being proactive about something.
00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:41.679
When you work with the families and they're coming to you in crisis, it's almost like, okay, yeah, this the system's had the trigger marks off and everything else, but you're diving into the family to find this root of the problem.
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:43.279
Where do you start?
00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.559
Where do you usually start when you've got a client that comes to you and they're in need and they're in crisis and everything else?
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:50.159
Like, where do you start?
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:55.279
I start with the one who's ready to change.
00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.480
Oh, that's I like that answer.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:00.000
Yes.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:10.000
And in family systems, the person who is the canary in the coal mine isn't always the person who's ready to change, right?
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:19.919
And so I always say, as long as one person in the family is ready to change, people can't act the same way or react the same way if you're not acting the same way.
00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:53.039
And so um it sets off kind of a uh domino effect, but um I have I have worked with so many adolescent and young adult families um where I've gotten the person of concern to say a lot of uh you know, three-word phrases, like uh, you know, that were not very flattering.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:12:08.879
Um like I mean, it's incredible every single time that if I can set somebody who never talks to me more than if you get out of my house, um, don't make another little girl cry.
00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:10.080
I hate you.
00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:15.519
Having you in my house makes me want to kill myself, which I'm like, that is very dramatic.
00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:26.799
Um and that person could still be set on a path to recovery without ever really engaging with me because the parents were willing to engage and do something different.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:37.120
And um it shows the power that each person has in a system to facilitate the change that they desire.
00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:48.799
And I think the other big thing I've noticed in these families is that people stop parenting at the age their child got a mental illness and suddenly it's gonna be the depression.
00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:53.679
Well, yes, and everything becomes a product of the mental illness.
00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.879
Well, that's the depression, just love him harder.
00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:58.320
Oh, you know what?
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.759
That's the eating disorder, just let that go.
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.039
Oh, that's you know, that's the addiction.
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:08.879
Um, you know, what he needs is help, not criticism.
00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:20.480
And if you got your mental health disorder at 12, 13, you're still a child who needs boundaries, guidelines, structures.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:28.240
And so a lot of yes, and a lot of these these parents, they, you know, they're like, oh, you're like the super nanny of mental health.
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.759
Yeah, because I'm coming in and I'm separating out.
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:33.120
No, that's bad behavior.
00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:41.440
Your 12-year-old is running the house, and like your child not looking you in the eye or rolling themselves in a rug or running about the house.
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:44.480
That's not an eating disorder because we're not talking about food.
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.440
That's a child who's running the household.
00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:52.799
And what would you do if your child didn't have an eating disorder and was doing that stuff?
00:13:52.960 --> 00:14:02.960
Oh, I'd take the phone, I would ground them, so start doing that, and then let's figure out how to support the eating disorder part, or let's figure out how to guardrail against the addiction.
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:08.559
So then, you know, that person later becomes 20, 30, 40, 50.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:14.159
So depending on when they got whatever the thing is, that's where their development stops to.
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:25.440
And um, there's you have to go back and start to reparent through those developmental stages, even as an adult, um, to help people get back on a track.
00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:50.320
And I think, you know, that's part of why this model works so well, because it looks on such so many deep levels of where a person is, who a person is, and um, you have the time to do it when someone's able to pay through what where their care actually needs to start and end, versus insurance saying medically stable, cut care.
00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:54.799
Oh, you know what, they've been in residential for this long, drop them down.
00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:58.960
But from a clinical sense, we all know they're not ready.
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.440
Insurance is a monetary sense, not a clinical sense.
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.679
They're trying to control dollars, not people's health outcomes.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:36.639
Unfortunately, you know, it's a it's a whole, I mean, talk about a topic, we can get in a rabbit hole on the revenue-based outcome, yeah, revenue-based approaches to health care versus health outcome-based approaches to health care, are routinely, you know, it uh I get why insurance companies want to want to put parameters around you know how much it costs to give a person the care that they need.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.840
But you know, my like my mom, you know, she's 80 something.
00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:46.000
She if you you know, when she was in her 70s, she broke her hip, right?
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:52.159
So there's a protocol for, and it's a long-established protocol.
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:58.559
Like it's, you know, a person in their 70s something breaking the hip is like the most one of the most common injuries that ever happens, right?
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.840
They fall, yep, they're not as bones are a little brittle, etc.
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.000
So you go through this protocol.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.840
They get a surgery, they get the replacement, they have to go through PT.
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:14.159
They may take some time to be in assisted care so that the healing can take place because they don't want them to go back in the home.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.679
They found that when they went back in the home too early, what did they do?
00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.840
They fell over again, right?
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:27.840
Give them all the the walker and all the equipment and all the stuff and send a PT person out to them and all these other things.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.799
It was really well done, you know.
00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:41.519
But it's something that over time they've learned somehow that if they don't do these stages of care, they end up paying for the surgery again.
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:43.600
Again and again, it gets more complicated, etc.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:45.200
It's a far greater cost.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:50.879
Now that that, you know, you're talking about something that exists over a period of two, maybe three months.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:58.399
What do you think it's gonna take for them to see like behavioral health care and mental health care?
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:06.400
Because what you're talking about and where you're starting with families, which is a largely where insurance companies back off and stop covering anything, right?
00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:12.960
In-home care, concierge level, you know, behavioral health adjustments for families, family systems, et cetera.
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.519
Like, you know, finding an insurance company that's gonna pay for that.
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:22.960
It's like, well, you're not a hospital or residence, or you know, there's no license associated with, we'll pay you for therapy, but that's it, you know, whatever, right?
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:29.680
What do you think it's gonna take for them to because the the period of time is so much longer, I think that that's part of it.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:35.279
What do you think it's gonna take for them to understand where the actual rubber meets the road in behavioral health care?
00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:37.680
Because they they killed it in the 90s.
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:44.319
Like we're we're still reeling from the managed care decision that was made back then, and here we are in the situation now.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.200
What what's it gonna take to convince them otherwise, do you think?
00:17:47.599 --> 00:18:06.160
I've asked myself that a million times because I do think from a revenue model, you know, in the long-term data from clients who have schizophrenia, bipolar, addiction, eating disorder, a variety of different disorders, right?
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:21.519
When we see them through the extent and drop down with them at a rate that's good for them, not good for uh an insurance company, we do see the sustainability of the model over time.
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:33.200
And I've asked myself a million times with the high relapse rates and the amount of rehabs they're paying for again and again and again, balancing between different levels of care again and again and again because they've been dropped too early.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:44.960
If it makes more financial sense to pay longer for a first time, because we know the more times people are in treatment, the harder it is uh for them to recover.
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:56.559
And um, from a dollar amount, it makes sense to me to pay longer for a first time than it does to keep paying for frequent relapses.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.759
Yeah, I mean hospitalization is not cheap.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.720
You know, residential residential treatment ain't cheap.
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:13.440
And if a person does, I mean, if you did it right the first time, you could stay in well under, you know, say$100,000.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:20.160
You know, if an insurance company is paying and that sort of thing, like you really can do some good treatment with that amount of money.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:24.000
Yeah, I've seen people spend$100,000 staying in a hospital.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:25.039
Yeah.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.640
And so, you know, I don't I don't know.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:35.839
I think that they don't understand the math because the amount of time that it takes for it for the resolution to happen.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:46.880
You know, I had somebody say, well, you know, they'll never do it because most most insurance prescribers, most, you know, people are paying for their insurance, they'll stick with their insurance company like two or three years.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.039
So then nobody wants to take the hit.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:59.440
Because it's gonna take for us to change the system, if you somebody's gonna have to take a hit, you know, for a minute, you get it back, but it if you got you got to take a hit in the beginning.
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:09.839
So I I mean, part of me believes that with companies like yours, and as we see it, you know, the thing is is that we we all talk about evidence-based practices, right?
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:15.440
But the truth is we had evidence-based practices about this model before managed care came in.
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:22.480
We we had we had like act teams that really gave the time, and we had care models that had a continuum of care.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:28.240
We had those things in place, and then we killed them because everybody felt like they were too expensive.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:43.519
All of a sudden, we're in this situation with people coming through, including like you're talking about, the people, the kids I worked with back when I graduated from my undergrad in psychology, are now like they're in their 40s, you know what I mean?
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.240
And they still need care.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:57.039
Like, but the complications that happened over the period of time, you know, they're incarcerated and they're homeless and they're like reliant on the system, but it never quite catches up.
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.079
So you're doing work that helps people catch up.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.200
Do you do any what like do you do any data?
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.079
Like, what's what's the data in your in your system as you do concierge level work?
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:08.880
What do you see?
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:14.720
And and maybe you don't do any formal collection of data, but like give me some success rate numbers for you.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:25.759
Like when you really work with someone, I've seen you work, I've seen you already be successful, but it took a while and it took a staggered, you know, progressive levels of care approach.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:32.559
What are you seeing on the success numbers with the people that you work with that really get to kind of have the systems approach?
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:46.000
So I I think the really hard part for me is that when I start with each family, I ask each person, what does success look like for you?
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:55.200
And then we start to standardize it into like, okay, this is what it looks like for things to get better, this is what it looks like for things to get worse.
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.759
And um, every month we're reviewing it to see where we are.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.559
On the chart and what's a how close we are to their definition of success.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:14.880
I think that so often people, whether it's clinicians or uh insurance or treatment center, like different systems are constantly defining what your success should be.
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:26.160
So I I'm very, very much into allowing families the agency to define success for themselves, which then makes it harder to track across everybody.
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:46.880
But you know, what I've realized, I don't know the exact number of, you know, this amount of percentage of people are successful, but I can tell you that the ones who have not been successful are typically family members.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:59.839
There's an enabler who can't get on board, um, and whose identity and purpose is tied to the sickness and facilitation of well-being of the the person who's struggling.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.359
Um there's Munchausen's ask.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:05.519
Very much so.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:22.400
There's um such deep institutionalization of the person of concern that there's no assets in life to stay for, so they don't mind going back and they know and like the structure and actually have purpose, passion, and community within institutional structures.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:33.279
Um and those those are really the two big things um that I've realized undermine people's success rates.
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:42.720
But this is what I love about keeping people in real life is that we build assets in their life instead of losing assets and trying to come back and rebuild.
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:49.839
And um, if people have one thing that's worth not losing, I know that we can be successful.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.759
The scary part is when people say, take it.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:24:02.000
And you're like, oh no, there's real like it's a power struggle where I'll give up everything just to keep the autonomy of saying F you.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:13.599
I'm you know, you can take everything you think matters to me, and the one thing you can't take is my dignity and ego, and I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt myself just to hurt you.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:21.440
Um but if people have one thing, even one thing that's worth keeping in life, I know they're gonna be okay.
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:30.480
And and something that is that can be redefined.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:45.359
You know, I find that um a lot of people, this thing that you're talking about, whatever it is that's that's that's important, working with a client right now, and um they suffer from you know suicidal ideation and they've had some hopelessness and trauma and the whole nine yards.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.720
Like a story is not unfortunately it's not new, right?
00:24:49.279 --> 00:25:07.279
And and but they're bel they want people they're having trouble with relationships, they want people to change their minds about like how serious this is and how they're regarded and everything else, but they believe that this kind of behavior is gonna cause these people to change their minds.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:16.880
I'm like really you so they're just gonna change their minds because you do something awful or you say something awful.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:19.759
It's like so let's flip this a little bit.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:30.079
Their math is off, you know, like how they're calculating what it is that's gonna happen as a result of their own behavior or choices, and they're skipping it.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.079
It's like that person who walks in the room, it's like, you showing up here makes me want to kill myself.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:38.960
It's like, well, first of all, I can see that you're having a feeling about the fact that I am here.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:43.839
I want to kill myself is not a feeling, it's an action.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:51.039
And maybe you have a feeling that causes you to believe that that course of action is going to be the way that you should proceed.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.599
But let's first let's do all the math.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:58.240
You know, let's like in school, I want you to show all your math, show all your work.
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.960
What's the feeling that you're having right now?
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:04.000
And that one, it's my favorite question.
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:09.839
It's like it really just it forgive the expression, it kills a lot of that reactiveness.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:16.000
It's like we're gonna identify the feeling first and then see if you've got other choice besides just that one for this feeling.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.480
My favorite is the sassy ones that are like, I feel like I want you to get out.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.920
Okay, let's let's play with that a minute.
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.960
That's an interesting feeling that you're having.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:37.759
Let's talk about that for a minute.
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:46.400
No, you know, like I mean, and and in many ways, like you're you you hope that they have some of that, right?
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.599
Because that means you got something you can engage with.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.240
It's like now we got something we can work with, right?
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:59.359
Yeah, it's like I want you to have these feelings and be willing to express them because then we can work with it, then we can do something.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:03.680
People who are quiet, internal processors and imploders, they're a little more difficult.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:05.759
You got to see it before it comes out, right?
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:09.200
Because a lot of times it's gonna come out in the explosion, right?
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:15.359
I don't know if you you knew this, but um I'm a certified hostage negotiator.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:19.519
So I went in, I got my level two school.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:20.720
Yes.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:24.880
I got my level two hostage negotiation certification in January.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.559
And um, so I'm doing this with the police force.
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:32.079
And I guess, you know, with the police, they have something called an OODA loop.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:37.119
Observe, orient, decide, act, and then you loop, right?
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:37.839
You keep doing it.
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:39.119
I'm like, oh, that's cool.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:39.599
Okay.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:46.720
Um, so you know, during the like final kind of exam, it's a practical thing.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.559
You're it's a role play and all of that.
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:56.240
But you know, the guy who was the role player, who was the hostage taker, he was like, Yeah, you kept throwing off my oodaloop.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:07.920
And I was like, you know, that's that's exactly what I want to do in life because people come in with these scripts that they want you to play out and they're unspoken.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:10.960
This is gonna be my line, this is gonna be your line.
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:19.200
And if I can throw off someone's oodaloop, now there's room for a new story to evolve because you haven't filled in that blank yet.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.559
And so now we get to co-create a new narrative.
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:57.039
And um, you know, if I come into a house and a young adult or a kid is like, you know, thinking I'm there to change them and I'm there for them, and I don't even and they're gonna lock themselves in their room and I don't even don't even talk to them the whole first day, second day, and then you know, they start getting confused, and we're all downstairs laughing, and now they're getting angry because you're now laughing with my family, and you're having a good time with my family, and we're playing poker, hanging out, and they come downstairs.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:28:59.599
Now the whole thing has to shift, right?
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.720
You know, it can't be you're here because you're trying to force me to change and my parents hate me and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:08.559
Now they're confused.
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.160
They come down and figure out what's going on and what you know, they they think I'm there for them.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.319
I say, oh no, actually, I'm here for your parents.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:21.200
They're ready to change and they don't want the things to continue the way they're they're happening.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.519
And so they decided they're gonna do something about it.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:28.079
But if you're open to changing and you want to change too, happy to work with you.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:36.240
But I'm here for the ones who want to do something different, and like it just disorients you so much you're not even sure how to respond.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:38.640
Um, and you have to reorient.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:47.519
But think about how that conversation ends up playing out for somebody who's angry, resentful, always the problem, right?
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:50.319
Like it's it's different.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.279
With my oodaloo.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:59.039
You go back to the script I had in mind for you.
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.519
That's fantastic.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:02.480
Yeah.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:07.759
I I I really we're we're gonna have to that that I'm gonna have to take this term now.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:09.759
It's and use it.
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:13.519
The because I call it pat pattern disruption, you know.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:21.440
It's just like, hmm, so I'm just gonna ask you some questions about what you just said and not react to them.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.160
Like this, you know, the kid that's got, you know, or the person who's talking about suicide.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.400
Oh, you make me want to kill myself and all that stuff.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.559
They make those statements like, hmm.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:37.039
And you don't you don't immediately go, oh, you know, react or you know, become concerned for their safety.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.559
The first thing you do is like, let's talk about that for a second.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:45.759
Um, I and I just want to ask you some questions because I'm I'm unclear about this statement.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:52.000
And then then they're like, wait, you're not freaking out because it said something.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.200
So sometimes I made myself want to kill myself too.
00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:58.319
And here we are.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:00.319
So where do we go from here?
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.160
Get in line.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:19.119
Oh wow, I mean, you know, the as serious as it is, I think that the that to me, and this is what makes us right for the work is that the work is fun.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:22.079
Like, I enjoy doing this with people.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:37.279
Yeah, I enjoy helping them lift them, you know, having conversations that cause them to lift themselves out of in, you know, improper thinking, improper identification of feelings, improper alignment to family systems.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.279
Like I enjoy that work.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:45.920
I enjoy watching people start to realign, you know, re-orient, reorient, right?
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.079
Towards a place that's gonna aim them at well-being.
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:51.119
Yes.
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.359
That's cool to do.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:54.319
Yes.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:32:02.640
Um the other thing, and I I like this is so let's go out on the limbs here for a second.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:20.960
Um because you've got, you know, you work with teams of people, so you've got to pull people in that are, you know, at least, you know, half as good as you at doing what we're talking about, um, and can follow, you know, can be with a person and and follow some directions from the team and those kinds of things.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:23.920
Not everybody's cut out for this work.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:28.720
You know, there's a lot of people who get there's a couple of different ways.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:43.200
You know, there are some people who want to help others because the the driver is they they experience a person, say, who's having anxiety, and that causes them to have anxiety.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:48.720
And when they go to help that person, what they're really doing is they're trying to resolve their own anxiety.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:49.599
Yeah.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:59.599
They try like your anxiety is causing me anxiety, I want to help you because I want to stop feeling anxious, which yeah, which is a terrible equation for helping other people.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.519
The contagion of emotion.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:03.119
The contagion of emotion.
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.240
So you've you gotta have some immunity to that.
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:16.480
Um, it comes with experience, but also there's there's also a kind of person that is automatically like I carry and an immunity that I've had it since I was a child.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:18.559
I didn't know I had it as a child.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:25.519
I just as I became as I oh, you know, I this has got to been cool because I've had this ever since I was young.
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:29.119
It's just something I had, which is great for the work that I do.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:50.720
But the other, you know, this this other piece that that I see in the field, and I'm wondering what what you do to kind of like choose team members and everything else is this this Chiron's disease, is that you know, I am fulfilling it's the other side, I'm fulfilling my life by helping others.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:34:00.000
And I'm not saying that what we're doing is not purposeful and fulfilling, you know, like sure it is, but I'm not getting juice, you know.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.640
This person's process of healing is not juicing me.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:08.239
I'm not like I don't I'm not looking for credit, you know what I mean?
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.639
Like, I'm gonna open some doors for you.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:18.639
I'm gonna really love seeing you walk through a few of them and find a way that you can embrace wellness for yourself.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:23.119
And I could, I really don't care whether I get credit for any of that.
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:29.519
I have to I'll play the bad guy for you, if that's what you need, in order to walk this path differently.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:44.800
I'll play my role, whatever that role is, and then you can believe mom and dad are great again for some reason, and I was just a terrible evil person that came into your life, and all of a sudden some things got better somehow, and my parents are wonderful again, but that guy, he's awful.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:46.639
And I've got a client's like just like this.
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:51.199
Like they said, their life is much better, but I was a terrible person who made them go to treatment.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.400
Like I will live in that role for as long as I do.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:00.320
You know me.
00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:03.360
That's the story I have.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:04.559
Right.
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:10.320
We we we have a we both have t-shirts with with bus tracks on the back of the shirt.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.280
Um where somebody just threw us at the bus and we were totally okay with that role.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:23.519
How do you like what is your what is your experience with finding people who kind of have this magic, but their their egos in healthy check?
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:26.079
Like, what is your how do you find that?
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:29.280
What do you look for in people that are part of your team?
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:41.039
Years ago, I um was watching a Netflix documentary on the greatest coaches, and I also read this book called The Talent Code.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:49.360
And what I realized from all those things is that it's not skill set that matters, it's the psychological profile.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:54.400
And you cannot cultivate a psychological profile, you can cultivate a skill set.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:04.239
And so I designed a whole psychological profile that we use to rate different candidates that we go through the interview process with.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:17.519
And we first do, you know, a talk interview where we ask questions, and everybody gives good answers in interviews, and then the um, so we have our first round interview, the second one's a panel, the third one's a role play.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:30.000
And so the question is can they actually apply what it is they've been talking about and how it works out when you have a personality fighting back, or you have conflict and family dynamics?
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:42.000
And um the thing that drives me more crazy than anyone else is when somebody is trying to look good for the family or look good for you because you're the big boss or whatever.
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:46.880
And I always say it's like, you know, no one wants to go into fire, like uh fighting a fire with a firefighter.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.000
It's like, am I like, do I look so good at fighting this fire right now?
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:52.400
Like, are you proud of me fighting this fire?
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:59.519
Oh my gosh, I'm like, the water's going right there at the fire, just like you taught me.
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:01.760
But I like you're okay with me, right?
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:03.119
Like you're you're happy.
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:05.039
I'm gonna say right.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:13.760
When you're focused on how you look fighting the fire, then the fire's raging out of control and it's gonna swallow you whole.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:15.519
So it really bothers you.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.159
Because you're not paying attention to what's actually important.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:19.280
Right.
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:24.960
And when you're like when you're not focused on the fire, now my life is on the line with you.
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:34.960
And and that's not a good feeling to fight a fire with someone who cares more about how they look fighting the fire than the fact that the fire is about to like swallow us whole um if we can't get it under control.
00:37:35.280 --> 00:38:07.599
And so being able to test those things from a variety of different angles from asking questions to the pressure of a panel to the pressure of a role play, and then our subsequent training process allows us to be able to see who has the psychological profile, to focus on what's important, to admit when they made a mistake and come back from it and actually have the courage to apologize rather than gaslight somebody and to call it gaslighting when it's not.
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:11.039
Yeah.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:22.800
Um and you know, like be able to move forward in a way that's focused on the client rather than them, that that's the person I'm looking to hire.
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.199
Everything else can be cultivated.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:25.760
Yeah.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:38.079
Eckhart Hole said something when uh he was doing one of his like, you know, audience interview kind of things, and person got up to the microphone and's like, Well, I'm asking about the situation because a friend of mine's in it.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:52.320
And, you know, they tell the situation, and Eckhart goes, Well, I can't speak uh to your friend because I might say something entirely different if they were the person asking this question.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:39:01.519
But I'll answer your question for you, and like it was just brilliant to me.
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:17.599
I was just like, you know, every person has this nuance, and there's a connection that we share, an energetic one that is, you know, out beyond all the mechanisms and psychology and everything else, being able to read a person has got a feel to it.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.840
You know, there's a real intuition and an art to doing that kind of work.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:26.800
And it's like, I mean, uh, I you how would you respond to this situation?
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.920
It's like, well, give me a profile about the person first and everything else.
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:32.639
I mean, I I've literally yelled at a client.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:38.639
You won't talk, you know, just like I've yelled at him because that was the mechanism at that time.
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:45.199
I had to like match them, and then and then and then we started the process of bringing it down.
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.519
And I didn't think about that when I did it.
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:49.519
Like it wasn't something that came out of me.
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:56.639
I just some part of me knew this is the thing that they need from you now, so that you can get here and we can co-regulate down.
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:57.280
Yeah.
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:01.280
And it's hard to teach people that.
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.599
It is because you have to empty yourself of yourself so that you could be attuned to what's in front of you.
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.480
Correct.
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:09.440
Correct.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:10.719
Attunement.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.079
That's a good one.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.880
So you've given me like terms and stuff.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.840
I'm gonna like I'm totally stealing half of this interview for myself.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:22.719
Do it, Amanda.
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.519
It has been awesome having you on the show as I knew it would be.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:27.119
Um, I really love your work.
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:28.079
I love what you're doing.
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:31.599
I'm glad you're out there in the world speaking and doing good things and everything else.
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.400
I can't wait to run into you at a conference here soon.
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:42.079
I'm sure that we will, but um, until then, this has been Head Inside Mental Health with Todd Weatherly on WPVM 1037, the voice of Ashell.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:44.880
Amanda Copler has been our guest and she's fantastic.
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:46.000
We'll see you soon.
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:28.719
I've not been out there, I've not been out there, I've not been out there, I've not been done, it became a pillow, if the nuts, I don't know.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:42:09.280
I'll be not paying our pen, I'll be on the pick I don't think I'll be a bad pen, beat up, I'll be a pen, I'll be a pen.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:24.079
I'll do so no eat the last in here, I need to find our way home, I want to so no eat the last in here, need to fly my way home.
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:39.920
I'll feel so lonely last in here, need to fly my way home, I want it home, I want I feel so lonely, and last in he asked me I need to find my way home, I'll find my way home.