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Commando Lee Spencer - "Training, instinct, and mindset kept me alive."

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Commando Lee Spencer - "Training, instinct, and mindset kept me alive."

 In this powerful follow-up conversation, Frank returns to share the extraordinary story of how he survived a life-threatening accident on the M3, lost his leg, and fought his way back from the edge of death. He speaks candidly about the split-second decisions, the long road through recovery, and the sheer force of mindset, training, and instinct that kept him alive.

The discussion also goes far beyond the accident itself. Frank reflects on the challenge of leaving the military, the loss of identity that can come with stepping outside that world, and the importance of purpose, standards, and accountability in civilian life. He and Hugh also explore the psychology of high-pressure decision-making, the value of military training, and why having a clear “why” matters so much after service.

Frank also talks about his remarkable achievements after injury, including rowing across the Atlantic and setting records as part of the world’s first all-amputee crew, before going on to row solo to South America. Throughout the episode, he offers honest, insightful reflections on resilience, recovery, and the responsibility to keep wounded service personnel in the nation’s conscience.

You can follow Frank here: https://leespencer.co.uk/

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This episode is sponsored by Sin Eaters Guild - sineatersguild.co.uk

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رونوشت 🔗

WEBVTT
00:00:41.319 --> 00:00:44.039
Frank Frank Spencer back into hey show.
00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:45.239
You can't stay away, can you?
00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:46.280
Can't stay away.
00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:47.959
Look, I I appreciate it.
00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:49.000
No, you're welcome.
00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:50.679
Thanks for having me again.
00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:56.039
Well, in all seriousness, I'm I I said this last time, you know, you're welcome back anytime.
00:00:56.120 --> 00:01:00.200
And I know that you're in London fairly, fairly frequently.
00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:01.879
So why the like why not?
00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:02.599
You know, why not?
00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:03.959
It's a good chat every time.
00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:08.039
Um, however, so so we've got a load more questions from the patrons on this.
00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:12.039
We're not gonna we're not done an icebreaker on this one because you did one very recently.
00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:14.599
Um if we get around at the questions, cool.
00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:24.359
But on the last episode, for people who haven't listened to this, I'd suggest going back and listening to the first episode with Frank only a few weeks ago, uh, or a few episodes back in your list.
00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:38.759
Um, were you talking about Frank's uh experience and relatively unique um uh not perception, yeah, vantage point of viewing the Afghan campaign in the different worlds you did out there.
00:01:38.839 --> 00:01:41.000
So I'd strongly recommend you go and go and do that.
00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:47.879
Um for those of you who follow Frank, you will know that uh you'll know that Frank has got three limbs instead of four, he's different your leg.
00:01:48.039 --> 00:01:55.319
And uh you may assume that he lost that limb in his service, and that is not actually the case.
00:01:55.479 --> 00:01:58.359
Uh I know some of the story, I don't know the entire story.
00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:05.559
However, we're gonna talk on this this this podcast now, if it's right with you, Frank, about basically from leaving the military onwards.
00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:06.759
If that are you good with that?
00:02:06.839 --> 00:02:07.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:07.399 --> 00:02:11.319
Because you've done a shed loads of issues left as well, and and uh I'd like to get into that.
00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:15.159
But to start with, so how did you lose your leg?
00:02:15.640 --> 00:02:18.360
Um, yeah, don't don't abbreviate this.
00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:26.199
Like let's go in, go, let's you know no, no, the the hesitation wasn't um uh uh working out how to abbreviate this.
00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:30.120
So the hesitation was I'm so I'm so used to uh lying.
00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:41.879
Um I I'll I go from a breakdancing accident to uh um four monkeys uh pinned me down and one sawed it off in Long Lee and long story.
00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:46.040
Um no, I actually stopped at an accident on the M3.
00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:53.320
Um pulled over, a card crashed into the central reservation and uh it was all smashed up.
00:02:53.480 --> 00:02:57.159
At the time I'd done three Afghans, one Iraq, so I would have counted myself.
00:02:57.320 --> 00:02:57.879
You were still in?
00:02:58.040 --> 00:02:58.439
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.640
Yeah, I would have counted myself as a very uh competent first aider.
00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:06.680
Actually, I was returning back to Chick Sands um after Christmas leave.
00:03:06.920 --> 00:03:25.240
Finished a convent in London and uh the South Coast and uh with the FCO and I was going back to start training to take up a more more of an operational, less training role with the FCO.
00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:36.600
Um so that's why I was going back to Chick Sands, and uh it was a Sunday night in January uh 2014.
00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:40.200
A card crashed into the central reservation.
00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:45.800
I immediately pulled over, and uh first thought was making sure the people were out of the vehicle.
00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:48.520
So it obviously just happened and there was no charger, yeah.
00:03:48.760 --> 00:03:49.719
Yeah, I didn't see it happen.
00:03:49.800 --> 00:04:16.120
I could I I was driving, and you know when you you look and you think you could see hazard lights, so you immediately pull off the accelerator, and I thought that doesn't look right, that doesn't look like it should be on the hard shoulder, so I started to slow down, and as I came up level, I could see the car crashed into the central reservation and it had its hazard lights on, but it was also a car on the uh hard shoulder to someone else had pulled over.
00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:22.519
I pulled up behind them, uh, got out, uh, made sure that the people were out of the vehicle.
00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:26.439
It was two, uh they're all Polish, not that it's got anything to do with it.
00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:34.040
It's a very heavily pregnant woman and two guys, and um just one car involved, just one car involved, just said you to plowed.
00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:36.040
Yeah, one car, one car.
00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:54.840
Um that it it was kind of um straddling the fast lane and the middle lane, but it was all beat up and there was bits of uh bumper and um so that it looked like the crash had happened and then they'd progressed a good hundred, two hundred and fifty metres.
00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:59.160
Excuse me, so it's all debris and and everything in the road.
00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:06.920
Um, so it'd been quite a violent crash, but they'd they were all okay, even the uh woman who was very heavily pregnant.
00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:16.600
And uh I checked them over, and then you start thinking about uh internal injuries and things like that, especially with the uh woman who was pregnant.
00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:28.120
But I thought there was nothing I could really do to add value to the situation uh other than walk along the hard shoulder and use the torch on my phone to warn oncoming traffic.
00:05:28.280 --> 00:05:33.639
Uh so I told the people that were there, I said, right, that's what I'm gonna do, turn to go.
00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:45.800
And as I turned, uh, I heard an enormous bang and uh almost simultaneously felt myself hit and I could hear screaming, lots of noise.
00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:53.079
It's really weird because I kind of went into myself so I could hear everything that was going on, but it was like I wasn't there.
00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:56.519
If that doesn't make sense, but it's the best I can do, really.
00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.280
Yeah, like kind of an out-of-body kind of thing, yeah.
00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.680
More more inner body, I kind of went into myself.
00:06:04.840 --> 00:06:07.240
I don't know that that makes sense to me.
00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:16.439
Um, and I could feel myself moving, and I knew something bad had happened, and I kept telling myself, in a minute, all this all this movement's gonna stop.
00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:18.519
You've got to check yourself over.
00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:31.000
And uh probably um about three, four minutes worth of memory could have only been a couple of seconds in reality, and I kind of landed kneeling down.
00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:37.560
Um and uh me Oh, so you were thinking all this as you were basically flying through the air gap.
00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:38.280
Jesus.
00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:44.280
So I sort of landed kneeling down and um I sort of patted myself down, checked my face.
00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:49.240
I don't know why, but I had a real fear that my jaw had gone.
00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:50.759
Don't know where that came from.
00:06:51.000 --> 00:07:10.360
Don't never come across an injury like that previously, or um so I kind of checked my jaw first of all, patted myself down, and then that's when I noticed my left leg, the one that's still there, that was going at a right angle instead of going behind me when you kneeled down, it was going at a right angle.
00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:12.280
Off to the side, yeah, yeah.
00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:13.000
Oh my god.
00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.160
So it was completely dislocated at the knee.
00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:15.720
Oh my god.
00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:17.240
That's what I realised quite badly.
00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:33.800
Yeah, yeah, and I fell backwards down a grassy slope, which was confusing because moments before I was on the hard shoulder, um, I crawled under the barrier back onto the hard shoulder, and that's when I saw that my right leg had gone.
00:07:33.960 --> 00:07:43.000
Um, there was like a bit of my boot and a bit of my leg still attached by some sinew, looked pretty grim, but I knew it had gone as soon as I saw it.
00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:45.240
How did you react when you realised that?
00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:48.280
Um, I thought, fuck, my leg's gone.
00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.680
But instantly I could see how much blood I was losing.
00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:54.439
I was like, I've got to stop that bleed.
00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:56.439
But was there any kind of sense of panic there?
00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:57.879
No, it was calmness.
00:07:58.040 --> 00:07:59.240
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:07:59.960 --> 00:08:09.319
Yeah, and it wasn't it wasn't unexpected, which was shocking in itself.
00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:09.480
What do you mean?
00:09:09.800 --> 00:09:42.679
I think um this is just a theory, when you go out the gate in Afghan, you make peace with something like this possibly happening, because it happened all the time, and I think I still had that in me, even though it was two years since I'd been in Afghan, or 18 months, but um it's two years, but I think I still had that in me because it was so matter of fact, oh, let's gone.
00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:49.480
It's also probably yeah, it's yeah, it's also probably an element of normalization there with those kinds of injuries.
00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:50.679
You go, huh, I don't know.
00:09:51.079 --> 00:09:51.959
Leg stiffy, huh?
00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.840
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, because you've seen know so many people, yeah.
00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:12.840
Um, but sort of jumping ahead here, a lot of people uh think of the irony, they go, Oh, you know, you do you do three Afghans, get through it okay, and then you lose your leg on the side of the road.
00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:14.200
I don't see irony.
00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:29.879
Um if I hadn't have done the Afghans, even though I know that I'd have looked at my leg and gone, um, I probably should get a tournique or something on that, it there wouldn't have been the urgency without Afghan.
00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:35.320
So it's not just the way I see it, it is the way it is.
00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:45.879
Life happened, it could have happened to anyone, but because luckily I'd been to Afghan, as soon as I saw it, I was like, I've got to stop that bleed.
00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:54.279
And I had from that moment a laser focus on stopping the bleed.
00:10:54.440 --> 00:11:01.159
And if I'd if I'd have hesitated a few moments, I wouldn't be here now.
00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:04.360
It was that close.
00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:10.360
So how did you and you're on your you're on your own now down the bank, realizing this is the immediate aftermath of.
00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:11.560
So what so what happened?
00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:12.919
You got hit by another car, I take it.
00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:30.519
No, so what had happened is a um yeah, no, uh, a car hit the one that had crashed first of all, and uh hit it with such force it span it round three times with such violence that his engine flung out.
00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.399
His engine went about 70 metres, nearly a ton of metal.
00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:44.039
So I was hit by the engine, and then I was knocked about 15-20 metres through the air to land the other side of the barrier on the grass verge.
00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.080
And where were the occupants of the car that had crashed in the first place?
00:11:47.560 --> 00:11:52.279
The uh guy who uh drove the car into the one that had crashed first of all.
00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:55.240
So the car that crashed first of all was a BMW 4F series.
00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:56.279
But were they on the hard shoulder?
00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:01.240
They they were on the hard shoulder at the stood right next to me.
00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.679
Um so bear that in mind in a second.
00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:08.279
They were stood right next to me when you when it happened, yeah.
00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:19.159
And the uh the guy who drove it was a Audi Six, Audi, it was a sport anyway, a big Audi.
00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:20.519
A6 sport, yeah.
00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:22.360
A big R6, maybe.
00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:23.399
I don't know, whatever.
00:12:23.560 --> 00:12:24.519
But it was a big Audi.
00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.759
Yeah, he just had cuts and bruises, apparently, but I didn't know that at the time.
00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.799
So that's what happened.
00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:33.560
It here was such false.
00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:39.080
There was no uh when they tried to do skin analysis to see how fast he was going, he didn't break.
00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.960
So he's obviously you know what time was it?
00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:42.840
What time was this in the morning?
00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:43.560
It was midnight.
00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:47.399
Midnight, he is midnight belt in it along a quiet motorway, yeah.
00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:51.320
And he's just looked down, looked up, and gone, oh, bang, and it's happened.
00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:54.679
I mean, we've all done it.
00:12:55.159 --> 00:13:02.840
Yeah, middle of the night, the road's empty, but you know, it's just uh I suppose it's very easy to lose concentration anyway.
00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:07.320
We won't speculate on why it happened, but um all right, so you're down the bank.
00:13:07.560 --> 00:13:11.879
So okay, you need to stop the bleeding, but you you're in a world of pain right now.
00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:19.080
Yeah, so I shout, I shout, as soon as I see it, when I'm up when I'm on the grass verge before I fall down, I shout medic.
00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:27.799
And then as I'm shouting it, as I'm shouting it, I've I thought part of my brain went, Where did that come from?
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:38.519
Because I I didn't make a conscious decision to shout that, it just happened, and then part of my brain was kind of marvelling at training.
00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:39.240
I don't know.
00:13:39.560 --> 00:13:40.600
Exactly what it is again.
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.080
It'd been two years since I've been in Afghan.
00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:48.360
And uh then I thought, well, no one's gonna react to that because they don't know what you mean.
00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.519
So the next thing I shouted was, I need medical attention.
00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:55.080
Because I don't know why.
00:13:55.320 --> 00:14:05.560
But uh and um as I fell down the grass verge, uh there was um the car that I pulled up behind.
00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:15.560
There was a young guy who was with the uh three Polish people out the out the vehicle, and there was an older guy who was on the phone.
00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:19.320
So before this happened, I said, Are you on the phone to the police?
00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:20.200
And he went, Yes.
00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.320
I thought, right, one job I haven't got to do is dealing with that.
00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:25.159
I said, Is everyone out of the vehicle?
00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:25.879
He said, Yes.
00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:36.679
He goes, My mate is with them now there, and I sort of walked about 10-15 metres and out of the gloom they appeared, and I was stood right next to them when it happened.
00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:44.279
Um I sh I am now laying bleeding and I shouting, I need help.
00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:55.399
And uh they the three Polish people didn't come down to help me, which was annoying at the time, but in reality, they were stood right next to me when that engine hit me.
00:14:55.560 --> 00:14:57.560
How it missed them, I have no idea.
00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:00.360
So obviously they're they're quite traumatized.
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:10.440
Um, and the young lad comes down and I said, I need a tournique now, and he went, tourniquet, okay, tourniquet, and he disappeared.
00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:13.960
And I thought he doesn't know what a tournique is.
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:15.320
Is he Polish as well?
00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:17.159
No, no, he was uh English.
00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:24.919
Um and I remember thinking to myself, right, you've got to communicate better with people.
00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:28.919
And uh it was kind of learning on the job a little bit.
00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:35.240
The clarity of thought you is quite amazing, isn't it, when you think of what you've what you've just immediately gone through at that point.
00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:46.039
You know, your body's been turning into a world of turmoil, but you've got this clarity of thought which can must be the the primary driver for that must just be survival instinct, yeah.
00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:52.279
Yeah, and and then how you how and what what you communicate then is driven by the training and instincts, right?
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:53.000
Yeah.
00:15:53.320 --> 00:16:02.200
So then next thing that happened really was a uh breakdown vehicle pulls up next to us, you know, like um AA or whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:03.639
Something like that, yeah.
00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:12.519
And the guy puts on his orange flashing lights, uh, he jumps out, he's got a beard and glasses, and he had an air of kind of practicality, and I thought.
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:13.720
You're still down the bank at this point.
00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:15.480
Yeah, no, I'm I'm on the hard shoulder here.
00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:16.840
How did you get back up?
00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:18.759
I'm on the hard shoulder.
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.639
I thought when you got knocked, you got knocked down the grass purge.
00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:23.159
Yeah, the grass forge went up.
00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:24.200
I fell down the grass.
00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.240
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, right.
00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:34.360
Yeah, so it was I fell backwards down grass forge and then crawled under the barrier onto the hard shoulder.
00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:35.480
Wow, okay.
00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:37.320
I didn't make that clear, it was up to the rock.
00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:38.120
No, no, sorry.
00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.600
And um, so the guy jumps out and I thought, right, brilliant.
00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.399
Uh I said I need a tourniquet now on my leg.
00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.159
Took one look and he went, I can't go down there, I'll be sick.
00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:51.879
I was like, that I'm going to bleed to death.
00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:53.159
Fucking hell, man.
00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:54.759
No, well, right.
00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.399
No, I don't try and excuse that.
00:16:57.639 --> 00:16:59.639
No, no, let me explain.
00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.039
He said, he goes, the ambulance will be here in a minute.
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:12.759
And honestly, is the weirdest thing, even though I knew I didn't have time for the ambulance, right?
00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:25.240
Even though I knew that, it felt like laying back and just wrapping myself in cotton wool, and just yeah, everything will be okay.
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:31.240
And it was actually it was a fight to get out of that.
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:32.680
But he was there.
00:17:32.840 --> 00:17:33.960
I couldn't reach him.
00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:35.160
Does that make sense?
00:17:35.320 --> 00:17:38.440
Yeah, he he was sort of wrapped in his own cotton wool.
00:17:38.600 --> 00:17:39.560
Yeah, it makes sense.
00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:40.519
You know, I saw that.
00:17:40.600 --> 00:17:41.960
And I still want to throttle him.
00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:46.440
I thought about saying to him, look, this is serious.
00:17:46.600 --> 00:17:52.279
I'm going to die unless you do something, and you're gonna have this, you know, this is gonna affect you.
00:17:53.080 --> 00:18:01.480
Um but he was also the only person there, and I was scared of antagonizing, and I know how ridiculous that is.
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:10.120
I was scared of anti antagonising him as if he'd go, oh well, you can help yourself then, mate, and then jump back in his vehicle and pull off as if he'd do that.
00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:24.519
Um so all the time I'm sort of bleeding to death and going into shock, and I can feel this happening, and um I just didn't know what to do.
00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:35.400
Uh the I subsequently found out that I'd lost over half my body's blood when the ambulance did turn up.
00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:37.160
Spoiler alert, I didn't die.
00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:47.960
Um when the ambulance did turn up, they couldn't move me because I'd lost that much blood that had to fly um blood in and gave me a transfusion.
00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:49.240
On yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:50.760
On the motorway, yeah, yeah.
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:51.480
Jesus.
00:18:51.800 --> 00:18:58.680
Yeah, uh I say to people, I was absolutely balanced on a knife edge between life and death.
00:18:58.760 --> 00:19:00.680
Yeah, and I absolutely was.
00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:13.240
And the only way I can describe it is is the cold of the tarmac was just I just felt it, felt it go right through into my absolute core.
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:29.880
And um I knew the only way I can describe it is there was uh there was an abyss, not the A, it was the abyss, was there right next to me.
00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:38.440
So it I couldn't touch it, couldn't see it, but I could it it was as real as anything I've ever experienced.
00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:41.400
I don't know, I don't know how else to explain it.
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:55.560
Just on the subject flying the blood in, just by chance, the next guest is walking in you uh as you walk out is uh helicopter uh London ambulance London helicop London ambulance helicopter ambulance pilot.
00:19:55.800 --> 00:19:56.440
Oh, right, okay.
00:19:56.840 --> 00:19:57.880
Might have been the same bloke.
00:19:58.040 --> 00:20:00.200
Yeah, no, it's a it's a girl, it's a lady, it's a girl lady, yeah.
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:00.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:03.880
Well, I didn't see the uh pilot anyway, yeah.
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:15.080
Um so absolutely um and you know I said I was gonna use my uh phone to warn oncoming traffic.
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:29.160
I still had my phone in my hand, and I thought about I genuinely contemplated whether I should just ring um Claire, my wife, to say goodbye.
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:41.400
I genuinely contemplated it because I thought if I don't, this might be my only chance to do it, but if I do it, that's an aw in the coffin.
00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:46.280
That's admitting that I'm gonna I'm not gonna live.
00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:51.560
And so that I was I was sat balancing that thought.
00:20:52.520 --> 00:20:55.480
Um can I pa can I pause there a second?
00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:56.040
Sorry.
00:20:56.280 --> 00:21:00.680
So so you weren't able you weren't able to tournique yourself at all.
00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:06.840
You ended up you ended up being there bleeding out until until uh the ambulance turned up, which was a wheeled ambulance.
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:08.360
No, not yet.
00:21:08.600 --> 00:21:08.920
Okay.
00:21:09.560 --> 00:21:14.040
Yeah, I've got about half an hour before the ambulance gets to me.
00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:16.360
Half an hour, half an hour.
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:17.560
Fucking hell.
00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:18.200
Like well.
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:30.440
Out of the gloom, a large Rastafarian gentleman from Hackney called Frank and his daughter, Zanelli, said Do you need any help?
00:21:30.520 --> 00:21:32.680
I said, I need a tourniquet now.
00:21:33.080 --> 00:21:38.120
Whipped off his belt, wrapped it round my leg, and we just couldn't get it tight enough.
00:21:38.760 --> 00:21:51.320
Um at the start of this journey to work, so near Oakhampton in uh Devon, about half hour into the journey, I got a flat tyre, so I changed the wheel.
00:21:51.400 --> 00:22:01.160
And as I was uh jacking the um the uh van up, I took a quick picture, posted it on Facebook and said, could this journey get any worse?
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:33.160
I promise you, I promise you, but the reason I say that is I knew where my uh tyre wrench was because I just threw me uh spare excuse me, through the flat tire into the um back of the van with a tyre wrench, and I thought I could send this guy Frank, I didn't know it was called Frank then, um, to get the tyre wrench and use that as a windlass to tighten because it just couldn't get their belt tight enough.
00:22:34.840 --> 00:22:56.280
But I I could see my van, it was probably about 30 metres away, 20, 30 metres away, and I knew that if I sent him to the van, there's a real chance that by the time he came back I'd be unconscious, and if I was unconscious, I was dead.
00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:57.640
I knew that.
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:07.000
And I just had this idea, and I and the first like I had the idea then immediately thought, why didn't I think of this before?
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:13.240
Is I got his daughter to stand on my femoral artery and right you're groining there.
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:14.120
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:21.480
I had a pair of jeans on and I tried to feel for the pulse, but I'd lost uh she was 22, 23.
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:27.080
So I was trying to feel for the pulse of for where the ephemeral was.
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:27.800
I couldn't feel it.
00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:29.480
I'd lost so much blood anyway, it was so weak.
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:30.760
There'd be no pressure every day, yeah.
00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:39.240
Guest got her to get her heel in, and she dug her heel in, and I didn't know I could feel myself bleeding until I felt it stop.
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.320
Genuinely felt it stop.
00:23:42.520 --> 00:23:52.120
And um we waited about half an hour from that point for the uh ambulance to turn up.
00:23:52.280 --> 00:23:54.600
In fact, the first responder came, first of all.
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.520
So for 30 minutes, she is stood on your femoral artery.
00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:04.200
Um the there was a older guy who I first spoke to when I got out of the van.
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:09.480
He suddenly appeared and I looked at, I don't know where he'd been this whole time.
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:22.360
Perhaps he was stood with the um uh the Polish people and didn't realise I needed uh help and the guy who was with me wasn't helping.
00:24:22.760 --> 00:24:25.560
Um he suddenly turned up.
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:31.960
I done some quick maths, realised he was a lot bigger than uh than Zanelli, who's Frank's daughter.
00:24:32.120 --> 00:24:33.800
So I swapped him over.
00:24:34.280 --> 00:24:41.000
Um and then I rang my wife because I thought, right, I've got a chance at living here.
00:24:41.320 --> 00:24:45.640
And uh I was looking at my van and I thought, well, someone needs to pick that up.
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:52.600
And also, she's gonna get a knock at the door at some point, so I thought I need to prepare her for that.
00:24:52.840 --> 00:24:57.480
So Claire, I rang Claire and said, Look, I've been in an accident.
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:06.920
Um, and as I was on the phone to her, I saw some blue lights going on the other carriageway, and I said, I was like, look, I'll have to call you back.
00:25:07.080 --> 00:25:11.000
And I thought it's the police, it's an ambulance, and I said, No, it's the first responder.
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:13.320
And I sort of done the maths.
00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:27.720
I thought, right, I'm about three minutes away from three, four minutes from the junction, so six to eight minutes from to get here, and that's when I genuinely first thought, I might have a chance here.
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:32.680
First responder, it was pulls up next to us.
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:38.520
He opens the door, and um, I'd learnt my lesson about uh communicating with people.
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:49.240
So, um, for anyone who who's not in the military, and a a medical report called a nine-liner, so you've got these nine lines that which is critical information that you give over succinctly.
00:25:49.400 --> 00:26:08.840
Um so I kind of civilianised this nine-liner, so I had it in my head what to tell him and how to say it, and then he gets out of the vehicle and I says, Right, I've got a catastrophic bleed, lower right leg, and and he went, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I've got to put my luminous vest on.
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:25.160
So I was like that, really, so I bit me tongue, waiting for him, and he sort of faffed around in the back, put it on, and then uh he goes, right, and I went.
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:30.600
To be fair, there's a fair point because it will happen to you, not that a luminous vessel.
00:26:31.080 --> 00:26:32.760
But we can see there's a logic there, maybe.
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:35.640
Yeah, but then you know, have a bit of sense.
00:26:35.800 --> 00:26:40.040
There was there was a pickup truck with orange flashing lights there.
00:26:42.440 --> 00:27:12.040
And uh so he roots about, puts it on, and then he sort of like turns round and goes, right, and I went, right, I've got a catastrophic bleed, lower right leg, and that and he went, I've got to do a triage, and that's when the first time I thought, ah, there might I might not be the only person injured here, and I knew that if there was someone else worse off than me, I was dead.
00:27:12.360 --> 00:27:13.640
I knew that.
00:27:14.760 --> 00:27:31.160
Um, and the cold, heartless drive of pure and utter survival instinct, I felt that surge through me, and I couldn't care less about anyone else.
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:39.640
Um was quite I'm quite ashamed of it, shocked by it, really, about how hard that was, that thought.
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:41.880
It's completely justified though, that thought.
00:27:42.040 --> 00:27:44.920
Uh, I didn't know I had that in me.
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:46.680
I thought I'd be a little bit more compassionate.
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:48.520
You think I'm close to death, you were fine.
00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:53.960
Um, but I I turned around to him and says, Look, catastrophic bleed, I'm your priority.
00:27:54.120 --> 00:27:58.680
And then a bloke went, There's no one else, there are no other casualties.
00:27:59.080 --> 00:28:05.240
And the first responder, it was almost like it was like, Okay, then they're still with you.
00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:18.840
Jeez, and he put uh he put the tournique on over my jeans, and uh he sort and then he sort of wandered off to put some plasters on other people, bizarrely.
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.640
Um and uh the guy was this guy ambulance service?
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.200
No, I don't know what I'm not sure.
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.680
First responders, are they volunteers?
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:29.240
I don't know.
00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:30.040
Sounds like St.
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:31.000
John's ambulance to me.
00:28:31.320 --> 00:28:32.600
Yeah, something along those lines.
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:40.680
So anyway, he um he put a tourniquet over my jeans, and the guy who stood on me uh feminil, he went, got off, and I went, no, jump back on, mate.
00:28:40.760 --> 00:28:43.400
I don't trust that that's on tight enough.
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:46.840
So he stayed there until uh the ambulance came.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.200
The police came first, um, then uh an ambulance.
00:28:52.520 --> 00:29:02.840
When the ambulance came, um as soon as they they obviously cut my jeans away and put two tourniquets above the knee on.
00:29:03.320 --> 00:29:08.040
Um as soon as they the ambulance got there, I knew I was gonna live.
00:29:08.280 --> 00:29:18.520
I knew I had a cut on my um in my palm on my left hand, my left leg was completely dislocated and my right leg had gone.
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:21.240
But apart from that, I knew I was unharmed.
00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:23.400
I knew there was nothing else going on.
00:29:23.800 --> 00:29:25.800
Um so I knew I was gonna live.
00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:27.480
What was the level of pain you remember?
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.080
I'm just about to say The dislocated knee is no walk in the park, isn't it?
00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:38.200
As soon as the um as soon as they got those two tourniquets on, I felt the pain wash over me.
00:29:38.360 --> 00:29:40.600
And I said, lads, give me morphine.
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:46.200
And um the paramedic who was there, he was packing my leg away.
00:29:46.840 --> 00:29:50.360
They got me on a stretcher and was packing, and they said they'll try and save that.
00:29:50.520 --> 00:29:52.440
And I looked down and I went, that's gone.
00:29:52.760 --> 00:29:54.280
They're not saving that.
00:29:54.600 --> 00:30:01.320
And uh he turned around and I said, give me morphine, and he said, Uh you're in the you um you're in the army, Lee.
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:03.240
I went, No, no, I'm a boot neck.
00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:08.360
He went, Well, you've got a power looking after you now, um and I went, okay.
00:30:08.520 --> 00:30:13.160
And then he went, uh he said, I can't give you morphine because you lost too much blood.
00:30:13.320 --> 00:30:15.080
You know what morphine does, don't you?
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:19.320
It's like he was questioning me, and I was like, Yeah, it's a respiratory depressant.
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.400
And he went, Yeah, see, we can't give you it, you're gonna have to hang in there.
00:30:23.560 --> 00:30:30.200
And uh um they got a they got a line in which was quite impressive for how much blood I've got.
00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:38.200
Yeah, uh so um morphine.
00:30:38.280 --> 00:30:47.800
Um, I don't know how it works, but it basically stops your blood taking in uh as much oxygen as it should.
00:30:48.120 --> 00:30:53.560
Um, so it it basically makes you less able to breathe.
00:30:53.880 --> 00:31:00.760
And um it doesn't actually do anything to you to the mechanics of your lungs getting full of oxygen.
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.600
It slows the heart slightly as well, doesn't it?
00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:03.000
Does it?
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:03.720
I think so, yeah.
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:05.240
I think it slows the heart slightly.
00:31:06.600 --> 00:31:11.960
If you haven't got a lot of blood going around your body, which I didn't, which means you haven't got a lot of oxygen going around your body anyway.
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.000
Yeah, so that's why they couldn't give me uh morphine.
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:17.720
Um I wasn't testing you then, by the way.
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:26.600
So I was um then a helicopter landed, and uh they picked me up, put me in the back of a helicopter, and gave me a transfusion.
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:39.880
They got a line into me, and uh there was a doctor there in the helicopter, and um he said to me, he goes, No, it was the uh medic, sorry.
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:57.640
He said, Right, Lee, we're gonna give you something better than morphine now, we're gonna give you ketamine, and I felt the pain wash away, and as the pain washed away, I looked up at this uh doctor and I said to him, This morphine, uh this ketamine, sorry, this ketamine's brilliant.
00:31:57.800 --> 00:32:06.360
He goes, because I want to say I was with you yesterday in Romford Market, but I know that's not true, and that's the last thing I can remember.
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:11.000
Goodness me.
00:32:11.080 --> 00:32:16.360
How long are you so how long was it before between getting hit and lifting lifting off?
00:32:16.520 --> 00:32:17.080
I don't know.
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:28.520
It was um I it's hard to um estimate time, but Frank uh he says it was about half hour from him getting to me before the ambulance got there.
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:31.560
That's a long time.
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:33.880
It's a long time.
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:40.200
Yeah, I I I want to see the chances of survival uh like slimmer than slim.
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:56.920
I once this once I got weight, once they closed down the femoral, and the guy had all of his weight on there and he was balancing, um I knew that that that just stopped the the bleeding.
00:32:57.320 --> 00:33:20.440
And then from then on, um I was told afterwards that uh that it was my physical condition and shape, um muscle density, and the fact that that uh I I kept fighting mentally that kept me alive.
00:33:20.760 --> 00:33:23.640
So your physical and mental fitness help with it, they're saying yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:24.920
That's right, that's what they said.
00:33:25.080 --> 00:33:27.000
But uh makes sense.
00:33:27.320 --> 00:33:33.480
There's there's very few injuries, I'd say, where being unfit gives you a better chance of survival.
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:33.960
Yeah.
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:35.800
I can't imagine any.
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.120
Um so that was that's it.
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:48.680
I woke up the next day in a hospital bed in um Tootin in uh the ICU.
00:33:48.920 --> 00:34:02.600
I actually fought my way out of a coma three times, and there's a bit of a story to this about two weeks before two two things happened that really I find really odd.
00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:10.760
First one was about two weeks before, or a week before it was less than two weeks.
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:20.039
A week before I'm laying in bed with a missus, can't sleep, and I don't know where it came from.
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:30.280
I just said, um if I'm ever in a coma or something like that, um just want you to know that I'll be inside fighting to get out.
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:33.159
And Claire went, Why are you saying that?
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.039
I said, I don't know, and I don't know why I did.
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.039
And she went, that's an old thing to say.
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:39.559
I went, yeah, well, oh well.
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:45.960
And then I never said anything about it, didn't think about it anymore.
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:57.559
And um I fought my way out of a coma three times, and the third time they decided it would have been it's because they tried to keep me in an induced coma.
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:16.039
Um uh because they after they uh amputated my leg, what was left of it, uh they I needed a couple of more operations, so they were just gonna keep me under and do uh as as easy as an easier option.
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:26.760
Um but I fought my way out twice, and on the third time, uh instead of uh sending me back under, they thought it'd be easier if I just woke up.
00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.880
And um they rang my wife.
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:33.400
Like, so if I go backwards, her story.
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:35.239
So she gets a phone call from me.
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:49.400
Um she calls my um mate um uh Bondi, who was one of my couples when I was a sergeant, and he um he he he he had a restless night and said I knew something was gonna happen.
00:35:49.559 --> 00:36:27.159
So he just put his uh got out of bed, put his trousers on, drove all the way, uh drove, picked Claire up, drove all the way to the hospital where I was already there by then, and then drove back and I met a uh a Royal Marine the other night who remembers that day because Bondy was a PTI at Limston, and he said we got a particularly bad thrashing from that PTI who said I've just had to go and you know I've got I'm in a bad mood because I just had to go and uh go drive my mate's wife to, and that was me.
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.599
He can remember that moment anyway.
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:37.159
So um uh they sent uh she went back to my mum's house in Essex.
00:36:37.319 --> 00:36:45.239
Uh this is my wife, Claire, when they was on their way back when they got a phone call from the hospital asking, saying, Are you still on the hospital grounds?
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.480
Well, no, and obviously she heart in her mouth, you know, thinking the worst.
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:51.639
And they said, Oh, your husband's awake.
00:36:51.799 --> 00:36:58.440
And um uh spoke to Claire, and uh I can't remember this because I was a bit groggy.
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:04.679
Um, but apparently I said, you know, I'm just glad to be alive, and I could, I can remember.
00:37:05.319 --> 00:37:15.480
Um, when they brought me round, the there was a female doctor, I think it was the surgeon who operated on us, and I think she said, Look, I'm very sorry, Mr.
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:16.839
Spencer, you lost your leg.
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:46.759
And I said, I'd be surprised if it was there, and I could remember every moment I'm fighting to uh be alive, and I think that fight stayed, and why I um uh I didn't uh that's why I fought my way out of the coma three times, but that saying to Claire, she said later when later on that day, like she spoke to me, got a shower, and then turned around and came back.
00:37:46.839 --> 00:37:50.839
But when she was in the shower, she just remembered that conversation we'd had a week before.
00:37:51.319 --> 00:37:52.599
So that's the first thing.
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:56.279
And the second thing is even weirder.
00:37:56.759 --> 00:38:01.000
Um I pull over, I see the see the crash.
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:05.639
I don't see the crash happen, but I see the car crashing on the uh central reservation.
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:14.279
I pull over, um, grab my phone, and then I go to open the door to get out, and I'll make and I think right keys.
00:38:14.359 --> 00:38:25.559
So I take my keys out, the van, and as I open the door, again, this is really hard to describe I didn't hear a voice.
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:37.319
It was like I was aware of a voice, as if someone had said it, but it would just appeared in my head, and it was be careful, this is dangerous.
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:50.199
Those words, I didn't hear them, it was like I just became aware of them, and it was like someone pulled me back and stopped me opening the door, although I didn't feel anyone pull me back, really weird, hard to explain.
00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:51.719
So at what point was that?
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:52.359
When was that?
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:56.440
Getting out of the vehicle after I'd just pulled over in front of the crash.
00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:57.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:13.079
I've never it shocked me because of like Iraq and the three Afghans I did and all the things that happened, all the firefights, all the stupid things I've done.
00:39:13.319 --> 00:39:16.920
I've never experienced that before, and it shocked me.
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:18.839
It really shocked me.
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:24.279
And I went, oh I had to get out anyway.
00:39:24.359 --> 00:39:56.519
But do you think do you think we're we're not the superficial now, but um there's a before I asked the question, so when I was a lot younger, uh there was a family friend, uh long long story short, he got he got killed in an accident uh on his pushbike, got hit by a driver, but it was not the driver's fault, it was his on the pushbike, he'd be pissed nighttime middle of the road, you know, swerving about basically, I think.
00:39:56.759 --> 00:40:04.039
Um but that morning uh he he he his behaviour that morning was super uh uncharacteristic.
00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:12.679
I remember my parents were counting that he was like good friends with my parents and he lived next door and and he was behaving in a way that he was going away for a long time.
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.319
The way the things he was saying.
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:25.719
Um like he told my mother, you know, that you know, just remember I I love you, or words to that effect, you know, you you're great, I love you as in as a friend, you know, I love that kind of thing.
00:40:25.799 --> 00:40:27.719
And then that evening he got killed.
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:34.519
Um and you and you mentioned about the you know the the coma, the dr the when you said your wife got the coma.
00:40:34.839 --> 00:40:38.039
Do you think I've got sorry, I'm gonna sneeze.
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:39.480
Go for it, I've got sight to my head.
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:40.440
Go for it.
00:40:40.839 --> 00:40:41.719
That's the devil.
00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:47.400
Almost, almost similar, uh, almost uh same uh story.
00:40:47.559 --> 00:41:00.839
My best friend, uh lad called John Brown, he uh he cleared up all of the loose ends in his life, came round to see me, knocked at the door, was like hello mate.
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:03.159
He says uh he came in.
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:08.519
We went upstairs in my bedroom and he said uh put comfortably numb on Pink Floyd.
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:09.480
Oh, what a tune.
00:41:09.799 --> 00:41:12.679
Put that on, and then he was like, Okay, I'll see you later.
00:41:12.759 --> 00:41:15.000
I was like, that's odd.
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:15.880
What'd you do that for?
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.920
He says, Oh no, I just thought I just wanted to come around and see you.
00:41:19.319 --> 00:41:38.119
He'd had this girlfriend um called Rowena, she was a lovely girl, and he kind of messed her around and and he he ended that in a way, and it weren't just that, it was lots of loose ends in his life that he tied up, and then a day later he died on a motorbike.
00:41:38.359 --> 00:41:55.159
And I remember at the time thinking, because we you know we see things as humans, and then we attach meaning to them, so we pick out things that fit a narrative, you know.
00:41:55.480 --> 00:42:09.319
So, and that's the same with what you're saying with your friend, and I would have argued that well, actually, he'd probably done very, very similar things, but he didn't die, so you didn't notice them.
00:42:09.799 --> 00:42:21.960
It's only because he died that you then attribute those actions to a narrative that until that happened to me, and it's changed the whole way.
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:27.319
No, it hasn't changed the whole way, it's it's opened up questions.
00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:48.839
There's lots of things that um you people have said to me, well, perhaps it's your your subconscious, um, your limbic system, essentially, the part of your brain, the lizard brain, um, that knew that this was and and it was communicating that this is a dangerous situation to you to your more conscious mind.
00:42:49.319 --> 00:42:51.159
That don't cover what I felt.
00:42:51.319 --> 00:42:53.079
That just don't cover what I felt.
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:53.799
I don't know.
00:42:54.119 --> 00:43:00.039
See, that's what that yeah when you said it, I thought that that didn't strike me as out in the ordinary.
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:05.319
So that's that's got it sounded to me as you saying that to yourself, be careful, but in a th in a third person kind of thing.
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:08.679
Yeah, but what what I thought was out of the ordinary was the coma comment to your wife.
00:43:08.759 --> 00:43:12.359
So so describe that, so it wasn't what you felt.
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:13.559
So what was it then?
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:15.000
Don't know.
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:25.559
It in in all the dangerous things I've done, all the situations I've been in, I've done three Afghans and an Iraq, and you and you know never felt it.
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:35.639
That's what shocked me was the fact I'd never felt that or heard that voice before, and I've been in way more dangerous, obviously dangerous situations.
00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:44.199
And that's where pop, you know, someone said, Well, perhaps it's your subconscious telling your conscious because your conscious hasn't picked up on how dangerous it was.
00:43:44.279 --> 00:43:49.000
And I was like, now it's it this is the hard shoulder of a motorway, middle of the night.
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:54.599
Kind of know how you know I didn't think go skipping out of the van, you know.
00:43:55.159 --> 00:44:05.480
It I knew it was a dangerous place, but that voice, it weren't a voice, it's the only way I called it a voice, but it wasn't.
00:44:05.799 --> 00:44:06.839
What do you think it was?
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:08.199
Don't know.
00:44:08.279 --> 00:44:18.039
Um as in I didn't hear a voice, I just became aware of the words, aware of the meaning, as if, and it was like someone screamed it.
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:27.719
It was so at the forefront of my mind, and that I didn't feel anyone pull me, but I stopped as if someone had pulled me.
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:29.319
Are you religious?
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:47.079
No, I do I don't look, we live we live in a universe where a particle can be a wave until you look at it, yeah, yeah, where an electron could be in two places at the same time.
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:54.679
Um there's there's a really famous experiment, and anyone who's listening to this, please Google it.
00:44:54.839 --> 00:45:12.199
It's how uh the northern Eurasian robin migrates and how it knows to go south, and they got it down to uh quantum mechanics and basically a particle being in the same place, two places at the same time.
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:15.799
Um, I can't remember the ins and outs of it.
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:21.639
But if a robin knows to go south.
00:45:23.319 --> 00:45:47.319
Because an electron or a particle, subatomic particle, can be in the same place at the same time, then time or space doesn't work the way we think it works, which is probably a really good explanation of quantum mechanics, which is that nothing works the way we think it does.
00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:48.679
Alex, I've I've got it here.
00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:50.039
Let me just explain this.
00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:51.000
So let's have a look.
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:52.440
I've I've never heard of this, by the way.
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:54.839
I I understand quantum entanglement entanglement and all the rest.
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:56.039
I say I understand it.
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:58.359
I understand it as a Joe Blog's layman.
00:45:58.599 --> 00:45:58.839
All right.
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:00.679
I understand that you don't understand.
00:46:00.759 --> 00:46:03.079
It's probably as good as anyone ever gets.
00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:11.880
The the bird is the European robin, widespread across Europe and into Western Asia, including Russia and uh parts of the world.
00:46:12.759 --> 00:46:19.000
Uh they are migratory and they fly southwest or south to winter in southern Europe and North Africa.
00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:21.159
How it connects to quantum mechanics.
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:22.679
This is AI telling me this.
00:46:22.839 --> 00:46:36.599
Experiments suggest that light sensitive proteins called cryptochrome 4A in the Robin's eye form short-lived radical pairs whose electrons become quantum entangled.
00:46:36.759 --> 00:46:53.480
The Earth's magnetic field slightly alters the spin states of these entangled electrons via the radical pair mechanism, effectively giving the bird a quantum compass that helps it distinguish north from south during migration.
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:54.920
Oh my god.
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:56.199
Oh my god.
00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:58.359
My goodness me.
00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:02.519
I bet you didn't think this podcast would be going into quantum mechanics, would you?
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:04.679
I did not think that at all.
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:11.960
Yeah, but my point, my point being is that the way we see time isn't, I don't know.
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:12.920
I don't know.
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:24.440
I'm not um I'm not suggesting I know or I've got a uh I've got a theory on how these things happen.
00:47:24.519 --> 00:47:32.119
And and going back to my friend John Brown and your friend who live next door to you, that Paul Jenkins isn't it.
00:47:32.359 --> 00:47:43.079
Paul Jenkins, that perhaps well, time doesn't work the way we think it does, it slows down at speed, the faster you go, time slows down.
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:43.719
How does that work?
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:49.559
I'll tell you why.
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:55.319
Because it's infinite, right?
00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:56.359
Time is infinite.
00:47:56.519 --> 00:48:07.319
Okay, and uh what I subscribe to the to the view that time is infinite, and when you when you like even thinking about infinity boggles the mind.
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:12.199
So if it's infinite and it has no beginning and it has no end, no, but time does have a beginning.
00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:15.000
I don't think it does, it's infinite, it's just a measure.
00:48:15.319 --> 00:48:18.519
Well, I think time began at the big bang.
00:48:19.319 --> 00:48:23.960
I think that that's that that the universe began at the big bang.
00:48:24.279 --> 00:48:25.880
I think time began then as well.
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:27.480
You need to look into that, I think.
00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:35.079
But if that well, if the time began at the big bang, then then there was nothing before it, and you can't you can't have something from nothing.
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:50.599
Well, I'm gonna say something now, and I want not just you to know, but anyone who listens to this, I do not think that I know better than the you know uh the the greatest minds that that we've ever imagined.
00:48:51.639 --> 00:49:11.239
I think it boggles the mind possibly time oh excuse me, time only exists in consciousness, and that's why um when you when a conscious mind observes something, it changes it, it changes it from a wave to a particle.
00:49:12.279 --> 00:49:18.279
Okay, that's kind of where I was getting, not on not on the change the way of the part, kind of where I was getting with the the infinite time, right?
00:49:18.359 --> 00:49:22.119
So because so if if time on the So in answer to your question, no, I'm not within.
00:49:22.359 --> 00:49:33.880
To your point, if time is infinite, it has a start and it's had an end, then time has always existed, it will always exist, and all of the eventualities that are happening now have happened, are happening now, will always happen forever.
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:48.039
But does all of the mean that there's no uh free will, there's no we're kind of locked into something that's gonna happen anyway.
00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:49.880
No, I don't believe that.
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:51.079
But you're not religious, okay.
00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:53.000
Let's get off quantum mechanics.
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:53.799
Okay.
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:55.079
I was religious, yeah.
00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:56.839
I met my I met my wife, Clara.
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:05.239
I was a born-again Christian from the ages of uh about 15, about 18, 19.
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:07.559
18.
00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:10.679
15, 18, three years, yeah, probably.
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:13.239
You weren't raised religiously, though?
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:13.639
No.
00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:14.679
That was the opposite.
00:50:14.759 --> 00:50:17.400
I was raised religiously, wrong Catholic, and then I binned it.
00:50:17.799 --> 00:50:19.639
I went to a Catholic school.
00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:31.319
Um half my family were Catholic my dad's side, and uh yeah, I became a born-again Christian when I was 15.
00:50:33.639 --> 00:50:35.799
Might have been 14 now, 15.
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:37.799
That's where I met my wife, Claire.
00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:39.559
So, what do you think?
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:48.679
So you you just you are you resigned to sort of not trying to understand where that feeling came from in the car before you got out that warning?
00:50:48.839 --> 00:50:50.839
Um, I don't know if I ever will.
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:55.639
Um it absolutely happened.
00:50:56.519 --> 00:51:02.279
Uh it might be a coincidence, these things happen.
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:13.960
People have psychotic episodes all the time, and the chances of a psychotic episode of that nature happening just before I very, very nearly die.
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:25.400
Quite slim, but you know, if one in one in a million chances they happen, you know, once in a million, you know, then they exist.
00:51:26.279 --> 00:51:28.759
Um, I don't know.
00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:33.799
Um, another question I'd had for you, I was writing them down as you were talking earlier.
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:38.920
When you said you you fought your way out of a coma three times.
00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:43.799
We so were you conscious inside you inside the coma?
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:45.799
You described to me then fighting your way out.
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:47.000
So how do you know you didn't?
00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:57.079
I was told that I kept waking up, they put me under and you're shrinking because you're and I and I was pulling tubes out and and then they'd give me a higher dose and get me back under.
00:51:57.159 --> 00:51:57.559
I'd done that.
00:51:57.799 --> 00:52:00.440
And you were screaming in that coma, and then you're completely out.
00:52:00.759 --> 00:52:01.799
I've got no memory of it.
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:08.279
No, no, and I had no memory of it um then either.
00:52:08.839 --> 00:52:11.319
So I've got no memory of the memory.
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:18.279
Yeah the co people's experiences of comas kind of fascinate me.
00:52:18.359 --> 00:52:36.119
I've had a few guests on room of varying experiences another Royal Marine called um Chris Shirley, Royal Marine Annex RMP, uh, and he I'm sure he described well he coming out of the coma.
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.559
I don't think he fought his out, but he was coming out of the coma and and like losing his shit.
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:40.920
Like, what the fuck is going on?
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:44.199
I've had that experience, but it was uh in an operation.
00:52:44.440 --> 00:53:10.199
And there's another guy who had on called Aaron Welsh who wrote a book about his his experiences, and he he got uh it was basically I can't remember the medical term, it's anesthesia induced psychotic episode, and he was in a coma for induced coma for I think it was maybe four days, maybe ten days, but in the coma, he he lived a life for three months.
00:53:10.279 --> 00:53:16.279
He was a three-month in his he was in a three-month-long reality inside his coma, and it's horrific.
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:19.799
Like he like came out of it a change, man, because of the things he was going through in there.
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:21.480
It was a horrific experience.
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:23.159
Um that's so serious.
00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:27.480
It is and then when I released the the what the heck is the condition called?
00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:29.799
When I released the episode, it's frightening, Frank.
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:33.480
I like to the point where I think I do not want to go under with general.
00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:34.759
Oh, it's general anaesthetic.
00:53:34.839 --> 00:53:36.920
Yeah, I do not want to go under with the general, it wasn't a coma.
00:53:37.799 --> 00:53:40.199
I've experienced something similar years and years ago.
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:50.679
Uh when I released that episode, um I someone else who's actually a patron of the podcast messaged and said, I went through exactly the same thing, not the same kind of dreams, but I went under.
00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:59.960
And it literally was basically a living nightmare where you don't re you you realize you're under, but you everything is real.
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.119
It's you can feel it, you can taste it, you can touch it.
00:54:02.279 --> 00:54:04.440
But I I had a uh I broke my jaw.
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:05.319
Aaron Welsh's one.
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:06.679
Sorry, Aaron Welsh's one.
00:54:06.839 --> 00:54:07.960
This is how how bad it was.
00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:09.719
Have you ever seen Event Horizon?
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:13.079
Yeah, you know how horrific the horror scenes are in Event Horizon.
00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:13.559
Do you remember?
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:15.639
No, they are grim, they are grim.
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:18.440
The scenes of hell in there are like real grim.
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:20.839
That was what Aaron Welsh's experience was like.
00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:21.960
Three months.
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:28.839
Yeah, it's like there was at one point in it uh for hours and hours and hours, and I think it would happen daily.
00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:38.920
He is suspended in the air, and he's looking down, and he's looking at a planet, and the entire planet is covered in basically his brother.
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:39.639
It's close.
00:54:39.719 --> 00:54:54.199
If it's brother, uh and it's just bodies, and it's all his brother lying next to each other, like clones, but they're all his brother, and they get in tortured and quartered and hung and just like physically tortured, and he hears above watching it, and he can't do anything about it.
00:54:54.279 --> 00:54:56.359
That was just part of it, and you go, Fuck.
00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:59.639
And it's as real as you and I are talking now.
00:54:59.799 --> 00:55:01.799
And it's three months he was in there for.
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:05.159
That's how and he wrote the honestly, it's like well.
00:55:05.239 --> 00:55:29.960
I I had a I had an operation and uh on a uh broken jaw, broke my jaw, and I woke up and I could feel them tugging around, and then I suddenly thought, oh no, and I couldn't move, and I thought, oh no, they're doing this on purpose, and then everything became clear, and it was layers of conspiracy.
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:45.719
So, first of all, I could see that the doctor was in on this, they've just got me to this position just purposely, so that they could torture me, and I can't move because they they give you neuroblockers to make sure your muscles don't twitch and things like that whenever you give an operation.
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:57.079
Um, so that's why you got like you got a paralysis, and I thought they're doing this on purpose, and then I realised that actually uh my was it my wife?
00:55:57.159 --> 00:55:57.880
Was I married then?
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.759
Yeah, my wife Claire, she knew all about this as well.
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:10.599
In fact, she is the one who instigated it, and then my mum and dad, they were in on it, and and it was these layers, and in the end, there was this is bizarre.
00:56:10.759 --> 00:56:14.199
You know the life of Brian, the film, the life of Brian.
00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:14.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:24.759
You know, like the um the rock uh like the poster for the film, you got like the rocks when it spell out the life of Brian.
00:56:24.839 --> 00:56:25.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:35.639
That was it, that was it, and it just said that's it, in those rocks, in the middle of nothing, because I'm I'm dying now.
00:56:35.719 --> 00:56:37.559
That's it, I'm dying.
00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:48.119
And it was God who'd said that's it, and I went, and I could hear these steps running off into like the distance, and then the door closed.
00:56:48.279 --> 00:56:50.119
I was like, What do you mean that's it?
00:56:50.279 --> 00:56:51.480
He went, That's it.
00:56:51.719 --> 00:57:04.039
Everything was just to take the piss out of you, like the lot the layers of of conspiracy to get me to that point, and then I heard, come on, Lee, breathe, come on, Lee, breathe.
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.079
And I took a massive breath and then burst into tears.
00:57:07.319 --> 00:57:09.639
And it was like That was the joy, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:17.079
Yeah, so basically they I've I spoke to a medic about it like about two or three days later.
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:19.319
I went, you'll never guess what happened.
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:31.480
And he said, Well, basically, you know, um the uh drugs that they use to put you under, um, they send you, you know, at on a lower doses, they send you on a massive trip, don't they?
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:40.199
Um and they give you neuro blockers to stop your muscles spasming whilst they're operating on you.
00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:47.719
Um and they basically time it all so that you come out the operation as that last stitch goes in.
00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:51.079
The less time you're under, the better.
00:57:51.719 --> 00:58:01.319
And uh so what had happened is just a millisecond between the two, and I just had the worst trip you can imagine.
00:58:01.400 --> 00:58:03.239
Yeah, I sort of laugh about it now.
00:58:03.319 --> 00:58:13.880
It was traumatic when it happened, and I burst into tears, but sort of just the thought that that everything was just a joke on me.
00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:16.359
Oh man.
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:19.400
My god, but it happens, doesn't it?
00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:30.440
Yeah, but I I've got going back to me in losing my leg, no recollection of fighting my way out of uh the um uh coma induced coma.
00:58:30.679 --> 00:59:17.239
The brain's behaviour when it's uh in a near-death experience, or when it thinks it is or when it actually is, and the way it behaves differently depending on what the hell is going down in your environment or what's in your body, like carmin or or you know, uh um anesthetic it is amazing, and the very the uh how different we all are in the way we deal with things, you know, like but going back to um that clarity of thought after you've just literally been hit by a flying engine block thrown to the air, you know, which is that is uh about as traumatic an event as a body can take, you know, physically, and then you and then mentally you should be coming around, not should be, yeah, you come around for that panicking, screaming, nope, nope, just laser focus as you described it, laser focus.
00:59:17.319 --> 00:59:19.960
This is a situation I don't need to sort it out, and it's what I need to do.
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:26.440
Even to the point, Frank, where you're cons you're being considerate of other people's feelings and what they may, yeah, how they may behave.
00:59:26.679 --> 00:59:29.559
Yeah, I know yeah, just to help me, yeah, use it.
00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:34.199
I won't like being considered, I didn't want to, I didn't want to inconvenience them, you know.
00:59:34.279 --> 00:59:38.359
It was more a case of I I need to communicate better and yeah.
00:59:39.319 --> 00:59:40.920
It's amazing, isn't it, we think of it.
00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:42.359
It's amazing, isn't it, we think of it.
00:59:42.519 --> 00:59:43.319
No, I don't think so.
00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:44.839
I think it's experience.
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:50.039
I think I think it's the experience that we go through when we go to war.
00:59:50.359 --> 00:59:57.000
So you do you think then that anyone can be prepared to for that kind of situation to act calmly?
00:59:57.159 --> 00:59:57.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:00.440
Yeah, resilience.
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:14.440
Yeah, because I I've been in um when we went into Iraq, uh I was in Charlie Company.
01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:22.839
So Charlie Company 40 Commando, we went in and we captured the Manifold Metroid Station MMS, just outside L4.
01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:26.199
We was in the first wave in the whole invasion.
01:00:26.279 --> 01:00:35.239
So basically, we had to secure the MMS, and then everybody got the go-ahead to roll across their start lines, and that's the whole invasion.
01:00:35.799 --> 01:00:50.279
And I my section took the second building in the whole invasion, and there was a point where it was on the corner, I couldn't see a way in, um, and I was panicking, I couldn't work out how we could get in this building.
01:00:50.359 --> 01:00:57.719
There was a little window at the back, and uh I didn't only have the rest of Charlie Company on my shoulder.
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:14.679
Like you had the rest of 40 commando waiting for us to clear the MMS before they then roll across their start lines, and and actually nearly a quarter of a million coalition soldiers, so I was under a bit of pressure, but was it that many?
01:01:14.839 --> 01:01:17.480
Yeah, yeah, it was at 230,000.
01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:27.000
I didn't realise that and the um my troop sergeant, obviously getting impatient, his name's Craig Rennie.
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:31.639
Craig jumped over the bun line and started taking over, started getting a grip.
01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:37.799
And I had a moment of clarity where I knew this was my moment.
01:01:37.960 --> 01:02:00.839
I just happened to be a corporal, a section commander going in to like you think of how many, how many Royal Marine corporals there were in the entire corps, and how you know how many of them were there at that very point, you know, and how lucky I was.
01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:07.319
And I could just feel that moment, my my one chance slipping through my hand like saying.
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:13.000
And I knew that if I didn't perform then, that's really the end of my career, you know.
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:17.000
And it weren't only that, it was there was more to it.
01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:24.440
Um I'll come on to that in a second to try and in fact, I'll just quickly explain.
01:02:24.679 --> 01:02:30.199
Like mine, I grew up in a um uh quite difficult circumstances, I suppose.
01:02:30.359 --> 01:02:33.880
My dad used to beat my mum up and beat me up as well.
01:02:33.960 --> 01:03:22.199
And my mum used to cry for me to come and help her, and as a little tot, I used to freeze with fear, so I I believed I was a coward and I dreamed of not being a coward, and that's where I always wanted to be a Royal Marine, that's where it came from because I wanted to be someone who was big, strong, tough, and for me, that was the epitome if someone like that was a Royal Marines commando, so that's where it came from, and I spent all of my career absolutely believing that I was a coward, and with a knowledge that um, you know, on exercises or anything like that, was when this becomes real, you're not gonna be able to do this because you're you're a coward, and it was a reality that I'd never challenged.
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:26.119
So I had a conscious thought that used to plague, yeah, goodness me.
01:03:26.359 --> 01:03:34.199
And I never never it was so much part of who I was that I didn't even challenge it, didn't see it as unusual.
01:03:34.279 --> 01:03:36.279
I just knew that I was a coward.
01:03:36.759 --> 01:03:52.679
So there was there was more to that moment than just my my time in the you know in the limelight uh from a career perspective, it was everything that I thought about myself, whether I could actually do the job or not.
01:03:53.400 --> 01:04:10.119
And I had a moment of clarity where going back to doing section attacks on my junior command course, which is the course to qualify you to be a corporal, and being told um to take a condor moment.
01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:22.759
As soon as you come under effective enemy fire, just stop, do nothing, don't even think about it, just do nothing, and then the plan will become obvious.
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:36.759
And I hadn't done that, and as soon as I stopped, I went, oh right, actually, I know what to do now, and I and I went over and I went to my sergeant, I went, Craig, I've got this.
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:45.559
I told him what I wanted to do, and then got on with it, didn't give him the chance to question me and wrestled back control of that situation.
01:04:47.239 --> 01:04:57.880
And I think that that learning experience, because you got you got your two, you got your two brains, really.
01:04:58.359 --> 01:05:01.559
There's a brilliant book that explains it really well called The Chimp Paradox.
01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:13.159
You got the chimp and I listened to it whilst I was rowing, and um actually I do I talk a lot about it.
01:05:13.319 --> 01:05:40.199
Um one of the talks I do is is about making better decisions, and you've got the two parts of the brain, and if you understand how they work and the limitations of both of them, so you've got the human, the human is quite good at doing calculations and working problems out, but he's really focused and misses everything on the peripheral, whereas your limbic system, so that's your prefrontal cortex part of your brain that evolved later.
01:05:40.359 --> 01:05:50.599
Um, your limbic system, which is like your lizard brain, that can't do anything complex, can't think, can't come up with a solution.
01:05:50.839 --> 01:06:03.719
Um, but it does see everything, you know, and and it's more in tune with how you feel, and and in times of high stress, that part of your brain takes over.
01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:21.639
But with practice and understanding, you can listen to that part of your brain that says something, there's a big problem, and but use the the prefrontal cortex in conjunction with it to come up with a solution, and that takes practice.
01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:44.920
So that started really where in that corner of a building in a rack where I nearly lost everything, but that regaining control of the situation by engaging the prefrontal cortex and going, right, I need to work this out, okay.
01:06:45.639 --> 01:06:46.839
I've got the plan.
01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:52.599
That that ability to do that can be taught, and the more you do it, the better you get.
01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:59.400
So actually, yes, you can be taught to to to be more calm.
01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:06.920
And it's not calm, it's it's understanding a situation and coming up with a solution.
01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:09.799
I I totally agree, but I think there's two parts to it.
01:07:10.199 --> 01:07:10.839
I totally agree.
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:12.759
There's two parts, I think there's two parts to this.
01:07:13.079 --> 01:07:21.880
Uh uh, and that is so the one aspect is I think you can you can train yourself or train people.
01:07:22.359 --> 01:07:27.319
People to be better at handling stress, extreme stress.
01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:35.159
And then the second part, which is kind of uh uh role specific, should we say, right?
01:07:35.559 --> 01:07:46.199
Is you can train that you can train in then the ability to make the right decisions in that extreme stress situation.
01:07:46.359 --> 01:07:49.000
Like the first part of being calm and not being a headless chicken in there.
01:07:49.319 --> 01:07:55.639
I that's probably then related to uh that's probably then like overriding the lizard brain instinct fight or flight, right?
01:07:55.880 --> 01:07:58.599
Uh override that and go fight or flight.
01:07:58.679 --> 01:08:02.359
No, we're gonna chill, condo moment, work out what we need to do.
01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:04.839
And the second part is okay, what do we need to do?
01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:06.519
And and and then making the right decision.
01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:07.400
I think there's two parts to it.
01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:07.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:08.679
There's two parts to it.
01:08:08.759 --> 01:08:10.279
You know, um, it's one way of looking at it.
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:11.880
The first part is much easier than the second.
01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:16.359
So I think it's I think it's very, very easy to become comfortable in high stress environments.
01:08:16.439 --> 01:08:18.039
I think anyone can achieve that.
01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:24.199
But then the second part is performing exceptionally well in those environments is not easy to do.
01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:26.920
That takes that takes a lot of preparation.
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:28.279
Yeah, yeah.
01:08:28.599 --> 01:08:29.719
I think that's what I agree.
01:08:29.799 --> 01:08:46.759
Yeah, the the way I frame it is um is to ask yourself a series of questions, and if you answer them, then in in general, we'd call it a combat estimate, but a very um a lot of a combat estimates faff that you don't really need.
01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:49.159
So it's kind of slimming that down.
01:08:49.559 --> 01:08:53.239
First thing you'll ask yourself is what do I need to do and why?
01:08:53.399 --> 01:09:08.839
The why gives you the context, and and it goes on from there, and then another part of um making those decisions, which I think is as important, is communicating those decisions effectively.
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:23.480
There's no point coming to a to the right decision, first of all, regaining control of a stressful situation, the second part coming to a correct decision if it isn't acted upon in the way you intend, it's pointless.
01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:32.039
So the the way I frame the the one of the talks that I give about making better decisions is there's two principles.
01:09:32.199 --> 01:09:54.680
The first principle is taking a condor moment, the second principle is effective communication, and under communication is one thing that we all can be guilty of when we're trying to communicate with someone is what do I want to say, and not what do I want that person to hear?
01:09:54.840 --> 01:10:12.039
What action do I want to initiate, and often um what you want to say is based in emotion, and in high stress situations, that's allowing the limbic system, the chimp, that comes to the forefront.
01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:23.720
Whereas if you think what action do I need to initiate, you know, that enables you to think about communicating to a person in a different way.
01:10:23.880 --> 01:10:27.079
I like going back to that high stress situation.
01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:37.079
I knew when communicating with my troop sergeant Craig, I knew to I needed to get back control of the situation from him.
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:44.439
So I needed to be uh uh decisive, but also don't give him the chance to question.
01:10:44.599 --> 01:10:50.199
So don't ask him any questions, tell him what I'm gonna do and then do.
01:10:50.599 --> 01:10:54.359
So that was one way of that I needed to communicate with him.
01:10:54.680 --> 01:11:00.840
Um then getting my section together and telling them that's a very different way of communicating.
01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:07.800
So you you so communicating decisions, so actually, it's probably I would argue three parts.
01:11:08.119 --> 01:11:21.239
There's taking that condor moment, so regaining control of a situation that's high stress from your chimp from the limbic system, however you want to frame that.
01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:30.439
That's first and foremost, then making the correct decision, then communicating that decision.
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:42.760
That they're all as integral uh to making affecting a uh a positive action.
01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:58.359
You know, now that you are out of the military and uh well out of the military, how do you how do you keep yourself sharp, mentally sharp?
01:11:58.599 --> 01:12:04.439
I don't think uh you know what I mean, but I don't I don't know.
01:12:04.519 --> 01:12:07.559
Um it's very kind of you to think that I am mentally sharp.
01:12:08.279 --> 01:12:09.239
I've got to be kind to you.
01:12:09.880 --> 01:12:12.199
Um I've got some difficult questions for you in a minute.
01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:14.439
Buttering you up.
01:12:14.680 --> 01:12:15.559
I don't know.
01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:29.720
Um I think if you used to say what you what you're gonna miss when you go outside, if I'd have asked you two years before you left, what are you gonna miss?
01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:38.519
You'd have probably said the legs, camaraderie, the piss-ups, the not having a proper job, mucking around helicopters.
01:12:40.119 --> 01:12:41.559
And I bet that was wrong.
01:12:41.720 --> 01:13:31.000
I bet what you missed was doing something that mattered, having a purpose, and I think that's where a lot of people who struggle when they come out of the military, it's your your identity, who you are, is so bound up with what you do to the point where I I I gave a talk, um I was doing a talk for the Ron Wins charity, and with me was General uh Messenger, Gordon Messenger, and he was talking um about his work with the NHS and other stuff that he does, and he said something that really shocked me.
01:13:31.079 --> 01:13:38.760
He said, We don't understand in the military, we don't understand teamwork, and I looked across and I thought, pretty certain we do.
01:13:41.239 --> 01:13:58.519
He went, it's so integral to everything we do that we don't think about it, we don't have to understand it because it is so much part of who we are, and in that and I went, all right, yeah.
01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:16.599
Whereas in the civilian world, you have to acknowledge it, you have to um think about it, you have to understand it, and in the same way, doing something that matters is so integral to what we did that we didn't give it a second second thought.
01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:44.680
And in fact, if you'd have said that to me, what you're gonna miss is doing something that really matters, doing something, having a purpose, I'd have laughed at you, but in that same way, it's so much so integral to what we did that we in a sense don't think about it in any real meaningful way, yeah, yeah.
01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:56.760
Um I think that's what I struggled with um initially was regaining that sense of purpose.
01:14:56.920 --> 01:15:13.399
I when I woke up in hospital and I thought, right, I've got no leg, I had set myself a goal of raising£10,000 for the Rome Marines charity um in my first year as an amputee.
01:15:14.760 --> 01:15:21.079
That's really just re trying to reframe a purpose.
01:15:21.559 --> 01:15:23.079
Um kind of lost.
01:15:23.159 --> 01:15:32.840
I thought the person I was, the person I was the night before was um uh volunteered for special duties, not special forces, make that clear.
01:15:33.159 --> 01:15:45.559
Um but ultimately I you know I passed the course, only three of us passed out of about 126 people who started uh the initial selection.
01:15:46.760 --> 01:16:02.359
Um you know, I I worked in the covert profile in Afghanistan, and you can imagine the competencies you need to um manage to do that.
01:16:03.399 --> 01:16:18.279
Uh we'll see the Gucci technical term is covert human intelligence operations in the most dangerous place in the in on the in the world, and then I went off to work on to comment with the FCO.
01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:35.880
Um so you can imagine, you know, I felt that I'd reached very much the pinnacle of what it was to be a Royal Marine, and then I wake up the next day and I've got no leg.
01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:37.960
I'm not that person anymore.
01:16:38.599 --> 01:16:48.199
And uh not only did I lose a big part of who I was, it was someone that I dreamed of being.
01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:50.920
You know, some I dreamed of being a Royal Marine.
01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:55.399
I was told at 13 at a career's fair, you know, when you take your options.
01:16:55.559 --> 01:16:57.559
I was told you're not what we're looking for.
01:16:57.960 --> 01:17:00.599
Went to the careers office 18.
01:17:00.920 --> 01:17:01.319
Jesus.
01:17:01.559 --> 01:17:03.479
Not million miles from here, Holborn.
01:17:03.559 --> 01:17:05.000
There used to be a careers office there.
01:17:05.159 --> 01:17:05.559
Oh, right, yeah.
01:17:05.800 --> 01:17:13.079
Chief Petty Officer Smith from the Royal Navy didn't even get past the interview stage, said those same words, you're not what we're looking for.
01:17:13.399 --> 01:17:14.599
What for what reason?
01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:15.720
I don't know.
01:17:16.039 --> 01:17:17.239
You have to ask them.
01:17:17.479 --> 01:17:21.079
But then I finally got through the interview.
01:17:21.159 --> 01:17:24.599
Um, was it tried how wrong they were, Frank?
01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:26.760
Yeah, well, that's the thing, isn't it?
01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:57.239
Um then scraped a uh potential recruits course, and I know I scraped it, so I got called in by the SART major and told you've literally just scraped this and got into training, but the whole time striving, you know, believing I was a coward, that moment in Iraq where I faced down uh that belief with action because from that point on I could say, well, here's my evidence I'm not a coward.
01:17:57.960 --> 01:18:15.000
Um that voice got quieter and quieter, and it and it meant that I volunteer, you know, it gave me the uh the confidence to volunteer uh for uh OPSamson DHU Defence Human Unit.
01:18:16.039 --> 01:18:18.599
Um I was too old for selection by then.
01:18:18.840 --> 01:18:29.079
And uh that person that I daren't even dream, like my dream was just to be a Royal Marine, you know, I daren't even dream of being coming.
01:18:29.479 --> 01:18:34.439
That person had gone when I woke up in the hospital without a leg.
01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:41.159
You know, I thought I'm now a disabled person, I can't be that same person, that person I was the night before.
01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:50.359
But giving myself a purpose for raising money for the uh Rome Ways charity, that kind of softened the blow a little bit.
01:18:51.399 --> 01:18:58.119
And the end of that year, I was literally thinking, right, what am I gonna do now?
01:18:58.279 --> 01:18:59.640
Where do I go now?
01:18:59.880 --> 01:19:12.359
And I got an email asking for volunteers to put together the world's first um all amputee crew to row an ocean, having never been in a rowing boat in my life before.
01:19:12.519 --> 01:19:28.119
I put in for that, got in, got on the boat, rowed across the Atlantic, and that rowing the Atlantic, I can still remember the moment that happened where I was rowing along and just suddenly realised I'm still the same person.
01:19:28.199 --> 01:19:38.680
I regained that sense of self, but it's that sense of purpose that was important, regaining that sense of I'm still the same person I was.
01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:49.159
I I think the sense of purpose is what most people would think it is that's is missing when they leave, what they struggle with.
01:19:49.399 --> 01:19:58.039
And funny enough, just on this, like I our our I would say our psychological journeys are not that far apart, uh, believe it or not.
01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:09.880
You won't know because I've not spoken to you about it, but my um I was not far off your thinking when I joined and the reasons for joining.
01:20:09.960 --> 01:20:13.000
I I was not happy with myself, to put it that way.
01:20:13.159 --> 01:20:16.840
Uh I'll I'm just abbreviating you because I've spoken about it before.
01:20:17.079 --> 01:20:37.319
Um, and that that fundamentally changed for me in my on the first Afghan tour where ship went pear-shaped, and I realized actually I can do this absolutely fine or and better, you know, in the most difficult circumstances, sort of prove myself to myself, which is kind of where I joined.
01:20:37.559 --> 01:20:44.439
Um but and what I think when people leave, I think I think they're they think okay, sense of purpose is gone.
01:20:44.519 --> 01:20:46.840
What in and they struggle to regain that.
01:20:47.000 --> 01:21:07.880
What I really think it is, is that the the the values and standards that they have lived their life according to and and what they're measured against, that what you and I are measured against uh in our service are fundamentally different to what it is when you step outside the the military world.
01:21:08.039 --> 01:21:12.039
And also when you step outside the military world, you're not there anymore.
01:21:12.359 --> 01:21:23.159
How you therefore how you map how you measure your own value and self-worth compared to the new society that you're in, the new culture and a new world that you're in is totally different.
01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:37.800
You don't know how to know how to value yourself, and that comes across as a sense of purpose slightly, but I think in reality is you're a fish out of the water, you've gone from one life, which is a set of cultural norms, cultural standards, societal standards, right?
01:21:38.279 --> 01:21:57.640
Ignoring the professional side of it, just that, and you've you're plonked into this new world, and yeah, you've been a civilian before, but years before, and you're plonked into this new world, and you're this person that was built, you're literally your whole existence is built to operate at the best possible possible way, socially, professionally in the military.
01:21:58.039 --> 01:22:01.880
That's who you are now, but you're not in the military anymore, you're in the civilian world.
01:22:02.119 --> 01:22:03.239
What are you worth there?
01:22:03.319 --> 01:22:04.119
What's your value there?
01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:05.319
How do you measure yourself?
01:22:05.479 --> 01:22:08.599
Are you are you valuable in that new world?
01:22:08.760 --> 01:22:15.319
How do you understand what you should do, what what uh um how you should act, how you should behave in this new world?
01:22:15.559 --> 01:22:21.960
And why is everyone else not behaving to the same set of high standards as they did when you were in?
01:22:22.439 --> 01:22:24.680
The teamwork example is a really good example you mentioned.
01:22:24.840 --> 01:22:26.840
I've not thought about it before until you mentioned that.
01:22:27.000 --> 01:22:28.039
Teamwork, you're right.
01:22:28.279 --> 01:22:29.960
It's like it's ingrained in us.
01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:31.880
It's not me, that's uh Tim O'Gordon's.
01:22:32.199 --> 01:22:34.119
Yeah, but when you mention it to me, it's ingrained in us.
01:22:34.199 --> 01:22:44.359
One of the things I really I really had to bite my tongue on multiple times when I first got my nine to five corporate job, right?
01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:51.640
Was one example was the lack of accountability and the lack of integrity that people have.
01:22:51.880 --> 01:23:02.680
And I'm and this is general population, but it is so much lower, the bias so much lower than the military is, and the military aren't well, everyone's really got loads of integrity and loads of honesty and loads of accountability.
01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:04.760
No, that's not the case, but it's much higher.
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:06.359
Do you know why it's a civilian world?
01:23:06.599 --> 01:23:13.640
I think that is um we train 95% of the time for 5% doing, yeah.
01:23:13.880 --> 01:23:17.479
Whereas in business they they haven't got that luxury.
01:23:17.559 --> 01:23:23.960
So, what that means is we are able, there's more accountability because we can fail.
01:23:24.039 --> 01:23:25.479
We're allowed to fail.
01:23:25.640 --> 01:23:39.800
We're allowed to make an absolute cock and ball arsache of an operation on exercise, laugh at it, and then look back on what went wrong and how you improve.
01:23:39.960 --> 01:23:47.319
Whereas in business, if that happens, they're like, Oh, that's my job, that's how I'm providing for my kids.
01:23:47.399 --> 01:23:51.479
That's you know, I could be out of here, it's his fault.
01:23:51.720 --> 01:23:54.359
And it's done at a granular level as well, the individual level.
01:23:54.519 --> 01:24:07.319
If you think about how you were built up as a as a as a Royal Marine, how I was built up as a paratrooper, and how soldiers are built up from you go from civilian, okay, you're a new human being with no you're a new soldier with no experience.
01:24:07.399 --> 01:24:19.399
You know, if you think about uh the level of uh oversight and supervision and training that goes into it on the individual level is far and above what a civilian has.
01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:25.319
We're very lucky in that regard because it's let's just think about rifle drills.
01:24:25.479 --> 01:24:34.519
You pick up the rifle for the first time, you're not even allowed to pull the trigger of that rifle until you've passed a load of tests to just show you can handle it correctly, you can do the drills correctly and safely.
01:24:34.680 --> 01:24:37.640
And when you've been shown these things and tested on these things, it's one-on-one.
01:24:37.880 --> 01:24:46.519
One person is watching those individual drills you're doing, what your thumb is doing, what your forefinger's doing, what the grip isn't on it, what your eyes are doing, whether you've got your both eyes up, all of that stuff.
01:24:46.680 --> 01:24:53.960
And you build that up to you go up to another level the first time you go and do a section attack, or even before that, you do fire maneuver, you and your buddy, right?
01:24:54.039 --> 01:24:56.599
You're going to do pairs, fire maneuver, you tools if you can do it correctly.
01:24:56.680 --> 01:25:02.760
And then you've been watched to see if you do all these things that you can do on the rifle, and now you're moving, making sure you're moving in the correct way.
01:25:02.920 --> 01:25:05.239
How are you speaking or communicating to each other?
01:25:05.399 --> 01:25:06.439
What are you observing?
01:25:06.519 --> 01:25:09.800
It's it's granular, like I said.
01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:18.279
It's like the attention to detail is like nothing else, which then I think cascades down to the individual, as in you and I who's been through that and you're being trained.
01:25:18.439 --> 01:25:29.880
You are hyper-aware of every single little thing that you do, from what your body does physically to what your brain thinks, to what your mouth says, how you can and what how you listen affects everything.
01:25:30.039 --> 01:25:32.599
It infects the whole, affects the whole machine.
01:25:33.239 --> 01:25:34.680
The effect isn't the machine, you know.
01:25:34.760 --> 01:25:40.039
So you become hyper-aware of your place in the team and the teamwork and how important it is, without even realizing it, I suppose.
01:25:40.199 --> 01:25:41.159
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
01:25:41.239 --> 01:25:53.239
And I get what you're saying about um being a fish out of water when you first come out in the different uh different way of operating, different standards.
01:25:53.399 --> 01:25:56.760
Um yeah, that that all has an impact.
01:25:57.079 --> 01:26:03.000
But for me, I can only speak about my experience.
01:26:04.519 --> 01:26:11.800
I'm still intimately connected with because I have I'm lucky enough to not have what I'd consider a proper job.
01:26:12.039 --> 01:26:26.359
I can concentrate on doing other things, um which enables me to mix with um servicemen, former servicemen.
01:26:27.239 --> 01:26:32.920
But for me, it's having a purpose, having a reason to do things.
01:26:34.119 --> 01:26:36.920
That's the most important thing I've found.
01:26:37.239 --> 01:26:38.199
You're white, mate.
01:26:38.519 --> 01:26:40.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
01:26:40.680 --> 01:26:51.479
My why, my my purpose, overarching purpose in life now is keeping wounded, injured servicemen and women in a nation's conscience.
01:26:51.559 --> 01:27:01.960
Because I passionately believe that we owe them, and I say them because I wasn't injured in service, we owe the people who've had their lives shattered.
01:27:03.720 --> 01:27:09.239
Families we owe them a life with dignity.
01:27:10.039 --> 01:27:11.880
No bells, no whistles.
01:27:11.960 --> 01:27:18.519
We owe them a life with dignity as a as a basic principle.
01:27:19.000 --> 01:27:20.840
Do you not think that's provided now?
01:27:21.159 --> 01:27:22.439
No, no, absolutely not.
01:27:22.599 --> 01:27:24.199
Not a life with dignity, no.
01:27:24.519 --> 01:27:26.199
What needs to change?
01:27:26.680 --> 01:27:32.039
Um societal change, lots of things, too complicated.
01:27:32.119 --> 01:27:36.920
That's why the military charities are picking up the slack.
01:27:37.079 --> 01:27:49.239
Look, you it there's so there's like you know, brain tumours in children, there's heart diseases, there's so many great um causes that I could have attached myself to.
01:27:49.319 --> 01:28:08.279
But for me personally, what gives me a purpose that drives me is that belief that we owe those who have had their lives shattered, we owe them a life with dignity because they've had their lives shattered in our service.
01:28:10.279 --> 01:28:12.920
That that's my purpose.
01:28:13.479 --> 01:28:16.599
Within that, there's other little purposes, you know.
01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:32.279
Um, every challenge that I've undertaken, there's been a reason behind it, there's been a purpose, otherwise, it's just vacuous nonsense and it doesn't go anywhere.
01:28:32.599 --> 01:28:37.239
I've failed more challenges than I've succeeded in.
01:28:40.039 --> 01:28:42.840
And I and I understand that that's part and parcel.
01:28:42.920 --> 01:28:48.039
If you're gonna try something that no one's done before, there's a chance you might not be able to do it as well.
01:28:49.479 --> 01:28:51.880
So you you you gotta accept that.
01:28:53.319 --> 01:29:02.039
But what softens the blow when those things don't happen is the purpose was right, it was correct.
01:29:02.199 --> 01:29:04.039
Someone should have tried it.
01:29:04.599 --> 01:29:06.760
Someone should try and do this.
01:29:07.559 --> 01:29:09.399
I tried, I failed.
01:29:10.359 --> 01:29:21.640
So having a purpose for me, it not only keeps me sane, it keeps me attached to the person I was when I had a bit different purpose.
01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:23.640
But No less important.
01:29:25.720 --> 01:29:37.640
But when things go wrong, having that purpose, it allows you to fail with dignity if you can, or as close to it.
01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:43.479
So so that's why I get your point that people do struggle.
01:29:43.720 --> 01:29:55.960
Um and it's probably maybe as as important a part of why people struggle when they leave the military is that they're living in a different world with different standards.
01:29:56.599 --> 01:29:57.239
Culture shock.
01:29:57.800 --> 01:29:58.039
Yeah.
01:29:59.159 --> 01:30:12.119
I for me the biggest uh challenge I had was losing um a sense of purpose, missing us, missing a mission, having a reason.
01:30:12.439 --> 01:30:16.279
That was for me per uh for me personally, yeah.
01:30:17.960 --> 01:30:19.960
Uh we've got a lot of questions, mate.
01:30:20.119 --> 01:30:22.680
Um you're right if we can get on to those is that okay.
01:30:23.000 --> 01:30:23.800
Crack on, mate.
01:30:24.039 --> 01:30:24.680
Crack on.
01:30:24.840 --> 01:30:27.159
I am getting chicken wings this time.
01:30:28.519 --> 01:30:29.000
How are you?
01:30:32.199 --> 01:30:33.159
Dave's chicken wings using.
01:30:33.399 --> 01:30:36.519
No, uh wingman's in Soho.
01:30:37.319 --> 01:30:38.760
I might let that have one man.
01:30:40.760 --> 01:30:47.960
Yeah, if anyone wants to get in touch with them and uh get me free wings imagining them in a podcast, I'm kind of obsessed with the thing.
01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:50.760
I get you free bingo wings.
01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:55.000
Um okay, we got we've got a lot of got quite a few questions here.
01:30:55.559 --> 01:30:56.519
Uh let's have a look.
01:30:56.680 --> 01:30:57.800
Let's have a look.
01:30:58.119 --> 01:31:03.640
Uh okay, so from Coke in the in the live stream chat.
01:31:03.960 --> 01:31:08.920
How how does your how does your heartless excuse me?
01:31:09.079 --> 01:31:14.840
How does your hardest experience in war compare to your hardest experience in civilian world?
01:31:15.159 --> 01:31:18.279
Um, what was the hardest experience in war?
01:31:18.599 --> 01:31:21.559
Sangin, um 2010.
01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:23.880
Oh, you talked about the first episode, yeah.
01:31:24.039 --> 01:31:29.399
Yeah, it was a c culmination of lots of uh stress.
01:31:30.439 --> 01:31:38.760
The hardest thing uh I've done is the last two weeks rowing solo um into South America.
01:31:39.159 --> 01:31:41.000
Uh I hit the wall.
01:31:41.640 --> 01:31:49.319
Uh exactly the same as a marathon runner, uh, quite apt after yesterday.
01:31:49.559 --> 01:31:55.159
Um typically they'll they'll hit the wall with three, four miles to go.
01:31:55.319 --> 01:31:57.319
I hit the wall with two weeks to go.
01:31:57.479 --> 01:31:57.800
Yes.
01:31:58.039 --> 01:32:14.840
And then uh physically absolutely exhausted, but I couldn't not row, I couldn't rest because the currents would have pushed me too far north, so I had to keep the same pace going in, had to keep rowing.
01:32:14.920 --> 01:32:16.920
So physical and mental fatigue, guys.
01:32:17.239 --> 01:32:40.760
Well, then the mental gymnastics of having to get out and row without a choice, I couldn't not row was so difficult that I then became um mentally uh exhausted, and then on the back of that was emotional exhaustion, and the last two weeks I can only describe as an absolute honking pit of despair.
01:32:41.000 --> 01:32:46.039
I lost all hope, all reason, had no idea why I was doing it.
01:32:46.279 --> 01:33:04.680
And when I finished my solo row, um if you don't know, I I rode solo from um Europe to South America, so from Porta Mayo in Portugal to Cayenne in South America, I beat the able-bodied record by 36 days.
01:33:04.840 --> 01:33:09.880
Um I still am the fastest person to row from Europe to South America.
01:33:10.119 --> 01:33:13.960
I was the first physically disabled person to row across the Atlantic.
01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:16.680
Um I didn't know that.
01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:22.279
And also the uh the longest ocean row by a physically disabled person.
01:33:22.359 --> 01:33:24.599
So I still hold four Guinness World Records.
01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:26.519
I was in the Guinness Book of Records twice.
01:33:26.680 --> 01:33:35.399
But that that when I finished and I broke the record, I had absolutely nothing left.
01:33:35.559 --> 01:33:37.479
Nothing, no emotion.
01:33:37.880 --> 01:33:39.880
I was absolutely empty.
01:33:40.119 --> 01:33:42.760
I wasn't relieved that it was over.
01:33:43.079 --> 01:33:47.880
I was it just it was as if I just couldn't be bothered.
01:33:48.519 --> 01:34:00.439
And for months afterwards, I couldn't look at the roam in a positive way because that those last two weeks were so mentally traumatic.
01:34:01.159 --> 01:34:09.319
When I said an absolute honking pit of despair, I meant it by far the worst thing I've ever experienced.
01:34:09.559 --> 01:34:11.079
I I believe you, right?
01:34:11.239 --> 01:34:14.279
And I've I've spoken to a few people who've done races like this.
01:34:14.519 --> 01:34:18.119
Uh wrong, not what you did, you did a solo row, right?
01:34:18.199 --> 01:34:22.519
I uh people do the Atlantic, the Atlantic, uh the Tanzka whiskey challenge.
01:34:22.760 --> 01:34:36.920
I had a lady on um called Annisley Park who um she she sailed where is she she rowed the Atlantic solo, kind of like yourself, not not part of anything.
01:34:37.079 --> 01:34:37.960
I gotta get this done.
01:34:38.119 --> 01:34:47.079
And she was a team GB athlete, lot wasn't able to do that anymore, lost her sense of purpose to just actually not too dissimilar, like motivation to yourself, actually.
01:34:47.319 --> 01:35:02.760
Um and she spoke about hard times, and one of the reasons these this the rowing fascinates me, whether it's a team or a pair of four or on your own, on your own particularly, is because of the situations you just you just talk about.
01:35:02.840 --> 01:35:17.159
I've not heard someone talk about it before like this, where because you only hear about the positive sides of these rows, and I've always thought myself there must be some absolutely soul-destroying times on those solar rows.
01:35:17.399 --> 01:35:19.399
But I wasn't thinking two weeks.
01:35:20.760 --> 01:35:22.439
There's a reason, there's a reason behind that.
01:35:22.519 --> 01:35:30.920
I was chased out of uh Porta Mayo by a uh very experienced rower, uh Dutch guy called Ralph Touin.
01:35:31.159 --> 01:35:42.119
We'd been talking, uh, we were planning on going on subsequent years, uh, but he I my mum died three days before I was due to go, so I had to postpone it by a year.
01:35:42.279 --> 01:36:04.199
So we ended up going on the same years, and um uh all of my navigation systems, everything's collapsed five days in, and I had to call into the canaries on the way down, and the record would still stand, but the clock's ticking, with one of the world's most experienced ocean rowers chasing me.
01:36:04.519 --> 01:36:08.599
So, from when I got out, I lost five days in the canaries.
01:36:09.000 --> 01:36:18.199
So when I came out, every rowing session, which I rode two on, one off during the day, two on, two off at night with a four-hour off.
01:36:18.279 --> 01:36:20.680
So it's around 12 hours a day.
01:36:20.920 --> 01:36:53.319
Um every two-hour rowing session, I rode my heart out, absolutely pulled as hard as I could, and that was unsustainable, and that's why I hit that level of exhaustion two weeks from the end, and because of the nature I could have slowed up and rode within what was sustainable, but because of the uh there's a current called the southern equatorial current that goes up the coast of South America.
01:36:53.479 --> 01:37:16.680
If I'd have stopped rowing or rode any less, then um that would have pushed me uh too far north and I would have missed me uh me finishing point, which was critical because there's so much, so few beaches and rivers you can get in, and actually just so much mangrove swamp where you just can't stop.
01:37:16.840 --> 01:37:28.119
There's there's no end to the uh to the Atlantic, it just turns into a mangrove that I had to keep the pace up.
01:37:28.199 --> 01:37:34.119
Plus, the boat was slowing down because of barnacles underneath, couldn't get underneath to scrub the barnacles off.
01:37:34.359 --> 01:37:37.960
So it was a culmination, it was almost a perfect storm.
01:37:38.519 --> 01:37:43.000
Um, and that's why it's still the worst thing I've ever experienced.
01:37:44.279 --> 01:37:45.079
Yeah, it does.
01:37:45.159 --> 01:37:47.000
It's it sounds uh it sounds terrific.
01:37:47.239 --> 01:37:53.559
I I you know if if I was ever asked to do that row, I'd I would almost certainly say no.
01:37:55.399 --> 01:37:55.880
It was amazing.
01:37:56.119 --> 01:37:57.399
I'd almost certainly say no.
01:37:58.680 --> 01:38:00.439
I won't row again.
01:38:00.599 --> 01:38:01.880
Uh I need a purpose.
01:38:02.119 --> 01:38:03.239
Someone gives me a purpose.
01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:06.519
I did have a purpose and almost rowed again.
01:38:06.840 --> 01:38:16.119
Um, in fact, it started, but I had to stop uh because the boat wasn't prepared well enough, and then the people I was rowing with stole the boat.
01:38:18.039 --> 01:38:19.479
That's another story that I don't want to go into.
01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:23.720
If you if people only hear that story, go back to the uh the recent episode with Frank.
01:38:23.800 --> 01:38:25.079
Uh it's a few episodes back.
01:38:25.319 --> 01:38:25.720
Look for that one.
01:38:26.439 --> 01:38:27.079
But that was a purpose.
01:38:27.479 --> 01:38:28.760
I was given a purpose again.
01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:35.640
So when I say I'll never row again until someone comes up with a good idea and a reason to do it, then I'll consider it.
01:38:35.720 --> 01:38:35.960
Yeah.
01:38:36.199 --> 01:38:37.319
Right, we've got five minutes.
01:38:37.399 --> 01:38:40.680
Uh, I'm gonna have to pick and choose these questions from the list that are in you.
01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:47.479
Um, so did all right, so this is one from Cog again.
01:38:47.559 --> 01:38:52.840
Okay, so I had a recent guest on a bit of context here, I had a recent guest on called uh Rowan Byfield.
01:38:53.000 --> 01:39:00.760
Uh he's an ex uh Power Edge sergeant major um SFSG.
01:39:01.239 --> 01:39:05.159
Uh worked uh he was one power than SFSG, obviously worked a lot with the Marines.
01:39:05.319 --> 01:39:23.559
So in that interview, he said that in his experience working with the Marines, limited experience working in the Marines, it was his observation that full screws in the Marines have, and I'm quoting him, less power than what full screws in Power Edge have.
01:39:23.800 --> 01:39:53.000
And what he meant by that was he g he gave the he gave the example of he was sitting in our group, uh bunch of Marines there sitting in our group, listening to platoon commander, um, and the platoon the the platoon basically the platoon commander's plan and what he was saying, some of the stuff should have been questioned or discussed, uh pointed out some stuff to the platoon commander which is normal in Power Edge, like a screw, like uh I don't think that's the greatest idea, or this, that, or whatsoever.
01:39:53.159 --> 01:40:00.680
And no one piped up from any no one piped up in that old group and Rowan ended up doing it, as I recall what he said.
01:40:01.079 --> 01:40:03.479
I was surprised by his description of that.
01:40:03.720 --> 01:40:28.760
I my uh my understanding was Marine Corps kind of the same as power edge corporals and general infantry corporals, and that I you should you should have a duty and an obligation to question or query the plan that has been delivered to you by the platoon commander, and also in doing so you shouldn't be you shouldn't be uh dis um discouraged.
01:40:28.920 --> 01:40:31.880
What what so what's your thoughts on on that observation?
01:40:32.119 --> 01:40:44.920
Um don't know every power reg officer I've ever met, I've assumed was an OR, so they're very different to other officers in the army.
01:40:45.640 --> 01:41:08.519
One I uh worked at DHE for eight years, so I worked with every single cat badge, and the the whole boot neck powers thing that gets you know the uh word I'm looking for um competition, um the rivalry.
01:41:08.680 --> 01:41:15.960
Yeah that I never really experienced that because it was kind of like boot necks and powers against everybody else.
01:41:16.279 --> 01:41:18.039
So we all sat together.
01:41:18.199 --> 01:41:27.239
Um you'd have a little bit of banter, but generally um kind of all got on.
01:41:27.399 --> 01:41:30.199
Um Roman's pointing out a cultural difference there, I think.
01:41:30.359 --> 01:41:51.000
Yeah, I I don't see one thing that I definitely see, and it's the way we are treated, and the way boot necks are treated is far better than any other part of the armed forces.
01:41:51.159 --> 01:41:53.800
A close second is power edge.
01:41:54.279 --> 01:41:56.359
Um in what way?
01:41:56.599 --> 01:41:57.159
What do you mean?
01:41:57.319 --> 01:41:59.079
Just I'll give you an example.
01:41:59.239 --> 01:42:07.159
Um when I was at Headley Court, all the boot necks every weekend, a driver would come and take you home.
01:42:07.559 --> 01:42:17.720
The army, you've got lads who've got like no limbs with their bags, you know, expected to get themselves to the train station or stay at Headley Court.
01:42:17.880 --> 01:42:24.439
Uh the powers, there was a power lad that used to they used to send a taxi for him so he could get a taxi all the way home.
01:42:24.760 --> 01:42:48.599
There's a clear difference in the way they're treated also when I was at DHU the way other officers treated boot necks was different to how they would treat their own cat badge, as in they treated us better than what they were treated there and spoke to.
01:42:49.479 --> 01:43:04.519
Um I'm good friends with brigadiers, uh generals, dare I say, but don't get that outside of the Marines as much.
01:43:05.399 --> 01:43:11.559
I can't comment on the power edge, but I know absolutely with the army in general.
01:43:14.279 --> 01:43:17.880
Whether they questioned, did I question as a corporal?
01:43:18.359 --> 01:43:29.640
The corporal, um, your I was in Charlie Company, and and again, our our boss, he got given the radio in Iraq.
01:43:29.960 --> 01:43:35.640
I won't say his name, but Craig basically became the troop boss, he was our sergeant.
01:43:35.880 --> 01:43:42.199
The senior corporal was a lad called Topsy, he kind of became the troop sergeant, and our boss got given the radio.
01:43:42.359 --> 01:43:43.559
What Craig was that?
01:43:43.960 --> 01:43:47.720
Craig Rennie, it's called uh really, really good bloke.
01:43:47.800 --> 01:43:51.399
He's a huge jawgy bare of a man, mounting leader.
01:43:51.720 --> 01:43:53.159
I think he might even still be in.
01:43:53.399 --> 01:43:55.720
I loved him, he was absolutely brilliant bloke.
01:43:56.039 --> 01:44:09.479
But so I don't know if that if he's uh his experience actually is a is representative of the whole thing.
01:44:09.880 --> 01:44:12.760
I think he's probably a a rarity.
01:44:12.840 --> 01:44:18.199
I think I you know I'd be surprised it did surprise me, but anyway, we are out of time.
01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:30.119
Um so how can I say it again as at the start, you're welcome back in Europe anytime, anytime whatsoever.
01:44:30.279 --> 01:44:34.199
But before that, next time, how can people follow what you're doing?
01:44:34.519 --> 01:44:41.239
Um, and you are doing you do corporate and motivational speaking as well, right?
01:44:41.399 --> 01:44:42.199
Yeah, yeah.
01:44:42.439 --> 01:44:46.199
So um that's how I actually earn a living.
01:44:46.439 --> 01:44:51.079
Um, but I find myself I'm so busy doing other stuff for free.
01:44:51.319 --> 01:44:57.559
Um yeah, so I talk, I'm talking tomorrow, uh singing for me dinner.
01:44:58.279 --> 01:45:01.319
It's a it's an odd way to earn a living.
01:45:01.559 --> 01:45:06.599
It's not something you go up to your careers advisor at school and say, I want this is what I want to do.
01:45:06.840 --> 01:45:10.119
Um, but it means I can concentrate on other things.
01:45:10.199 --> 01:45:19.800
So if you want to follow us, um I'm on most social media except Twitter, so that's a cesspit of hate, uh, or ex, whatever it's called now.
01:45:20.199 --> 01:45:28.680
Um, and I've recently started doing little videos, uh putting videos together of like walking up and darkmoor.
01:45:28.760 --> 01:45:29.559
It's more of a hobby.
01:45:29.640 --> 01:45:33.159
I don't, it's not um, yeah, I really enjoy doing it.
01:45:33.239 --> 01:45:34.119
It is a hobby.
01:45:34.279 --> 01:45:38.920
Uh so there's a couple of uh YouTube videos that I've put out and you want to check them out.
01:45:39.079 --> 01:45:39.239
Yeah.
01:45:39.479 --> 01:45:42.680
Talking about walking with one leg and other things.
01:45:42.840 --> 01:45:45.399
Um, yeah, so come follow us.
01:45:45.479 --> 01:45:52.760
But I suppose if you really uh I wrote a book and the book's out, it's called uh The Rowing Marine.
01:45:53.000 --> 01:46:06.840
If you Google it, you can buy it on most Waterstones, um Amazon and Pen and Sword are the uh the actual publishers, so you can buy it off their website as well.
01:46:07.079 --> 01:46:19.720
Um and that that tells the whole story actually goes from uh my childhood uh to rowing into uh uh KN.
01:46:21.399 --> 01:46:22.519
Well worth a read.
01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:23.399
Well worth a read.
01:46:23.479 --> 01:46:24.760
I highly recommend it.
01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:43.479
And uh I would strongly suggest um if you are listening to this or watching this and uh in a position to recommend or book in speakers for your event, be that corporate or be that after dinner, whatever it is for your uh for whatever it could be, whatever organization, motivational talk.
01:46:43.559 --> 01:46:45.079
I highly recommend uh booking Frankens.
01:46:45.399 --> 01:46:48.920
So definitely, definitely do that.
01:46:49.079 --> 01:46:55.720
I think it's pretty obvious by now the kind of value that he brings based on the two podcasts and the future interviews you can do when you come back in.
01:46:55.800 --> 01:46:56.439
There's loads of questions.
01:46:56.760 --> 01:46:58.039
I'm getting beasted in the live chat.
01:46:58.359 --> 01:46:59.720
It says, Yeah, you better come back.
01:46:59.880 --> 01:47:00.920
My questions need answering.
01:47:01.079 --> 01:47:02.199
That's one of the pictures.
01:47:02.920 --> 01:47:03.399
Definitely, mate.
01:47:03.559 --> 01:47:07.079
Well, I'm always in and out of London, and thank you for the plug for the speaking.
01:47:07.399 --> 01:47:09.559
I'm reassuringly expensive.
01:47:12.439 --> 01:47:12.840
It's a pleasure.
01:47:13.559 --> 01:47:15.239
It's been good to carry on the story again.
01:47:15.399 --> 01:47:20.039
Listen, stay safe and um good luck with a talk tomorrow.
01:47:20.199 --> 01:47:20.760
Yep, yeah.
01:47:21.479 --> 01:47:21.960
We are done.
01:47:22.039 --> 01:47:23.319
See you later, folks.
01:47:24.119 --> 01:47:24.680
That's it.
01:47:24.840 --> 01:47:29.159
If you enjoyed this episode, why not become a Hey Chour patron?
01:47:29.319 --> 01:47:39.159
Patrons will get access to all of the episodes before anyone else, they get advanced viewing of the episodes, and you also get other perks and bonuses.
01:47:39.479 --> 01:47:41.880
All of the information is on charliecharlie1.com.
01:47:41.960 --> 01:47:44.680
Just hit the menu item, become a patron.
01:47:44.760 --> 01:47:52.359
It'll show you everything there, including access to the Heych Hour Discord community and private patron only channels on there.
01:47:52.439 --> 01:47:56.279
So go to charliecharlie1.com and hit the menu item, become a patron.
01:47:56.439 --> 01:47:57.239
Easy peasy.
01:47:57.319 --> 01:48:03.399
Thank you for being a supporter, subscribe to the channel, and I will catch you on the next episode.
01:48:03.559 --> 01:48:04.279
Thank you.

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