Shepherds Not CEOs

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For decades now, pastors in churches of many sizes have been running what some coach describe as a business model, usually involving pastors that function as CEOs.
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The church in America is both understaffed by men who truly love God and overstaffed by men who have a corporate vision for the local body of Christ.
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Join us as we look at this issue that we face in the crisis of the American Church, where we examine the difference between grooming the sheep and fleecing them.
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Welcome to Gospel Grandpa's, where we just four guys sitting around having a conversation about gospel things.
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Today we're going to talk about the church and more specifically the leadership and the pastoral ministry of the church.
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And we're going to talk a little bit about the structure of the church and some good things and some maybe criticisms of the of the church.
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But I want to read this quote as we get started, kind of where this idea came from.
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Ran across this quote that says this we need fewer CEO pastors and more actual shepherds.
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And in our discussions in the Chick-fil-A booth over a couple of different Saturdays, we started having these conversations about what church looks like, what the pastoral ministry should look like, what pastors do, what is the role of a pastor, what should a pastor be?
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And it it got us on this track of the different churches that we're involved in, the different styles, the different pastors that we've served under.
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And so Taylor, why don't you kick it off with the quote that you talked about just a second ago?
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And talking about the threat to the church.
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Yeah, so one of the quotes I'd recently heard on this subject was by Paul Washer, a man who's greatly impacted my own spiritual life.
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And somebody asked him in a QA recently.
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And his answer surprised me, and I'm sure it surprised everyone else.
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He said, Pastors.
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Pastors are in our day and time, not by necessity of the office, but in our day and time, the greatest threat to the spiritual health of the church.
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And that's really counter-cultural in the church scene, in the American church scene, for you to say something like that, or for Washer to say something like that.
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Of course, we know he has said many things that are countercultural, so that's that's right on par.
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But one thing that I want to talk about throughout this conversation is, and we can kind of dive into that in the beginning, is the different pastors that we've all sat under.
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You know, we were talking about a few minutes ago, Jacob is a pastor skid.
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The typical, you know, you use that phrase PK.
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Right.
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You know, that looks different for every pastor skid, but you also have Taylor who has served under pastors, and even in the very beginning, didn't really look up to pastors at all or very much, and then has come at s at one point to actually be a youth pastor himself and then served on on staff at a church.
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We have Dalen who has served in pastoral ministry, although in the worship setting, but also in that role has served under different pastors.
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And so we we have these different contexts for what pastors look like with the role of a pastor.
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And so I just want to go to Jacob.
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I want to start there and just talk unpack the idea of a pastor.
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And in in your mind, what does that look like?
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And what should that role, just from a j real general broad spectrum, what does that look like?
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Well, the very first thing I think about when I hear the word pastor is shepherd, overseer.
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Absolutely obviously somebody who is leading the way, kind of directing the flow of service, and if you want to say interpreting what the Lord would have done during that time of gathering for that specific week or you know, whatever.
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But as I was thinking about this earlier and getting prepared, and then I thought about the fact that the very first word I thought about when pastor is said, I thought about Psalm 23 that the Lord is my shepherd.
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Yeah, I shall not want, he leads me, you know, beside still waters.
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He makes me to lie down in green pastures.
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And I feel like ultimately that's supposed to be the role of the pastor is to look like that, to to shepherd us in the way that Jesus Himself would, obviously, and always constantly be pointing to him.
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And I think maybe in our modern day there's a lot of things you could critique at any church within any camp or denomination about pastors not really fully expressly showing who Jesus is.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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I think that's maybe maybe what Washer was getting at when he said pastors were the biggest threat to the church.
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Why?
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Because we see a lot well okay, I say we, in my camp specifically, you know, it's not quote unquote a denomination.
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I know there are particular denominations within the charismatic camp itself, but a lot of it is non-denominational, they're not necessarily submitted to a particular like governing body, if you will.
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And so there's not always this structured like target to be aiming at exactly.
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And so some things kind of fall by the wayside as you go.
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And and in that setting, when you have a pastor who has who is the one who founded the church, who's not like within an organization just overseeing a church for the organization type of thing.
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I think there's a lot of damage that can be done because you don't have anybody to submit to specifically.
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Yeah.
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And you start where where's the line?
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I guess here's here's what I'm getting at.
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Where's the line of what is your desire for the church versus what is the Lord's will for the church?
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You're getting right at the root of it.
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And I think that's really important.
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Taylor, you and I have talked about this several times, where if you start, especially you talked about the the person who's starting the church from the very beginning, or even just starting a ministry before it becomes a church, you really have uh hopefully a genuine desire to see it grow.
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And you really want it to see it grow.
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And so in the beginning, your grassroots effort, you're really working hard.
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And I think one of the pitfalls or one of the traps that people in those situations can fall into is trying to grow it in size, and sometimes you lose focus, like you were talking about, the focus of what the real main point of the issue is and why we started this to begin with.
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Can can I read the some scripture verses as far as how the Lord outlines overseer, bishop, pastor, elder, these these interchangeable terms that we understand as Protestants.
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First Timothy three, start at verse one.
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The saying is trustworthy.
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If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
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Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach the husband of one wife, sober minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
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He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive.
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For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how much will he care for God's church?
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He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
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That's interesting.
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Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
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Right, so we we we're talking about the way pastoral leadership looks, and there are reasons why there are aberrations, and we'll continue to get into that.
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But I think it's important we stop and say, here's God's standard.
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There's multiple others.
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Second Timothy four, John 10 is a good place to go.
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We talk about Jesus being the good shepherd.
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Yep.
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Lots of scriptures here, but 1 Timothy 3 is one of those touchstone passages.
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This is what God wants from his men.
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Yeah.
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This is what God desires, this is what he commands from his men.
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Above reproach.
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Yeah.
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And a huge long list on top of demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit from Galatians 5, right?
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It's a very, very high office that the Lord esteems greatly.
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So it's I think it's important when we talk about not going beyond what's written.
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I think it's also important to say this is what God desires from his men, which means this is what we should desire from his men.
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It also means we should not place and tie up heavy burdens that are extra biblical on men that he did not place on them.
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That's a good point.
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That's a really that's a really good reminder and caution.
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What would be an example of an extra biblical, like oh, easy.
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Easy.
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The CEO model that we're talking about, that you're a Fortune 500 CEO with this mega church multi-campus satellite model.
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I'm just using that because it's low-hanging fruit, where you are managing a system of governance that is not at all biblical.
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When you're putting that on a man, I mean, we saw this with Mars Hill, we saw this with Mark Driscoll.
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You've got ten different campuses, and you're beaming it in, and you're supposed to be spiritually responsible for all these people.
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If you're a shepherd, you if you're a shepherd, you have to be able to shepherd the flock, right?
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Not just them see your face on a screen.
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That's a good that's an unbiblical qualification and expectation to put on a man who he's spiritually responsible to the Lord, to the great shepherd, Christ Himself.
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If he doesn't know those people, he doesn't know their first name, their last name, be able to recognize them.
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Your church is too large, you don't have enough leadership, hire a new man, plant the church, move on.
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But when you are in charge of so many people, and we've been at places for a long time, in our case, you end up with somebody who has a spiritual responsibility, but they don't have the tools for the task.
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Yeah, and I would also add, you know, a lot of times you also get situations where either maliciously, you know, through through the pastor's undoing or sometimes unintentionally, they become the main attraction of the church rather than Jesus or the gospel.
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People come to hear so-and-so instead of right.
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I mean, we hear that we hear that a church is all over the place, you know.
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Well, I just I just love Pastor So-and-so's teaching.
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Yeah.
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You know, that's that's why we came here.
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I th there was actually a a church that I had served at one time where I was the worship leader and we had a audition process for for people who wanted to serve on the worship team.
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Right.
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And one of the questions that was on the questionnaire that they all had to fill out was, you know, what led you to this church?
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And every single one of them, that there was literally without exception, was it was that pastor's teaching, yeah is what had brought them to this church.
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And and to me, you know, obviously that that was really concerning and and should have honestly thrown up way more red flags than it did for me at the time.
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But, you know, I I think I think that is something that happens a lot that would be an example of an undue burden that we put on a pastor.
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I I totally agree with you.
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I want to play devil's advocate here for just a second, just for the sake of the conversation, because I think you can also look at it from the perspective of the person who says, okay, but that so-and-so, the reason that I like their teaching is because they're they're able to explain it in a way that I understand it.
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Is is that a bad thing?
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That you know you found someone who can unpack it and explain it in a way that makes more sense to you or you can understand it easier.
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I don't think that in and of itself is a bad thing, but it it becomes a question of what is you know, what is the it becomes a question of the heart, right?
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Both on the side of the the person attending the church and the pastor.
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What is you know, what does the pastor do with that if he becomes aware of it?
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Yeah, it's a it's a hard issue.
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What's what's the what's your question?
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I can say that in our church specifically, there's been many times where people are like calling into the office on a week where dad, the pastor, may be out of town, and they're like, Oh, is Pastor Tracy going to be in town this week?
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Or is he, you know, is somebody else speaking?
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And now I haven't heard of these happening, any of that happening recently, but it's happened many times in the past, and when they hear that he's not gonna be there, they won't show up.
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And the attendance drops because he's not there.
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Well, why do you have the rest of your pastoral staff?
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Yeah, they're supposed to be able to take over the pulpit and actually in a manner that will continue to lead the flock where they're supposed to go, right?
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This this concept and sentence or two, right?
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The concept of the cult of personality, which is what Dalen's talking about.
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Yep, it's what Jacob's talking about.
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Oftentimes it's not just charismatics, it's it's all of us.
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That probably needs to be addressed.
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You know, we need to touch on that at some point.
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It is a huge pitfall that we experience with pastors.
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And again, I mean, I I want to emphasize that I I have seen both sides of this.
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It's not it is not always a malicious thing.
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Right.
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Well consumerism, that's number two.
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So here here's a way that I feel like it's it could be considered not malicious, is if you take the concept of if God calls a man to pastor a certain body of people, a church, then there must be people who are called to be planted in that church.
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What do you I mean Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
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Is there y'all tell me what you think about that?
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No, I I don't dis I don't disagree with you.
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My my mind was going on a slightly different track there.
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So if y'all want to, you know, go with that this far.
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No, I just was saying that there needs to be at least an understanding of it's not always bad that you're attracted to the the way the pastor ministers or the way that revelation flows out of him by the Spirit of God.
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Yeah, I just I think I think it's important, number one, if if you are that person that that is that likes the way that that pastor explains things.
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I mean, I'm one of those people.
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I I do really enjoy the way that our pastor explains the Bible.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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But I think it's incumbent upon that person to recognize that within themselves and constantly be on guard that they are still they're seeking the ultimate prize of Christ and the gospel rather than and I I would I would say just to go a little bit further on that, I I I agree that it's not in and of itself an issue if someone like we were talking about a second ago is goes goes somewhere because someone can unpack scripture in a way that makes sense for them or explain it.
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But it is something that you need to constantly monitor, constantly be on guard about and and be aware of yourself so that you don't kind of fall asleep to just the fact that oh I I just go there because I like him.
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Yeah, Paul Paul makes a point of saying some of you Paul follow Cephas, and some of you follow Barnabas, and some of you say I follow Paul.
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I was literally about to write all that out too.
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So so there's this again the cult of personality that we have.
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One of the things that I think is important, and I can I don't have any problem sort of just being the jerk here.
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One of the things that's important for us to say, I think, is that if a man is called, Second Timothy 4, I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom, preach the word.
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Be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, and exhort with complete patience and teaching, for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
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Is that not our day?
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Yeah.
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So so the question that I pose to you, brothers, would be this when we're talking about our pastors and who it is that's feeding us through the Word of God, every deviation, or let me say it differently, every word that you say that's outside of the scriptural authority of what is written is you explaining, expositing, exegeting, innovating, whatever term you would like to use.
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You can't improve upon the scriptures.
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We have men that climb into pulpits all over America in every denomination who are convinced that they're gonna put lipstick on a pig as if the scriptures need you to modify them.
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Right.
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That's blasphemy.
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It is.
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Okay?
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And secondly, I think we talk about you asked this question earlier, trying to stay on topic here.
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If we're talking about the extra biblical models that are put on pastors in today's American sort of mainstream evangelical church, one of them would be we ask our pastors to be our priests.
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And I and I mean that even in the evangelical sense.
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So I think that that man is supposed to represent me before God, and vice versa.
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I think that he's my intermediary.
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So I need him to do something for me that he serves on a stage to do that.
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You put him in a position that he has no business being in.
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He he knows God, and I just know about him.
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So as long as he teaches me what he knows by being in communion with God, that's a priest, ladies and gentlemen.
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Yes, exactly.
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Right?
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We're not Catholics, nobody in this room is.
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That's exactly in line with uh recently what I've been thinking about, because I I was listening to a sermon on prayer, and I won't get us way off topic, but it goes right in line with what you're saying.
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And it's I believe it's it's the heart of the individual who is looking at it from that perspective that is the issue, not necessarily the pastor, but pastors can fall prey to that by taking that unto themselves when they see it.
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But my point was I was listening to a sermon on prayer, and I got this like revelation, epiphany, whatever you want to call it.
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But this thought came up in me that I was like, you know, people all the time on social media, especially Facebook more than anywhere else, are like throwing it out there, oh, pray for me that such and such is going on.
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And and I saw it in a different way when I was thinking about that simple phrase, pray for me.
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How many people out there are asking for other people to pray for them?
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You know, they're not bringing it to the Lord themselves.
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Absolutely, so they're looking for a mediator, mediator, yes, right?
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Even if that's just some random person out there on the internet, like pray for me so I don't have to.
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Yes, like I can't be bothered to lay down all my cares and worries before the feet of Jesus and pray for myself.
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And and it's the same line you're talking about right here with pastors, that's too many people come to church on a Sunday morning wanting the pastor to do all the preparation, all the reading of the word, and you impart to me what you know so that I can be on your level in my relationship with God.
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I'll I'll say something scandalous.
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Turn it right to you, Lane.
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What's interesting about what you're saying is that I see this all the time.
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We think that, and this is wrong, that something the pastor gives me on a Sunday morning is better, more qualitative, more quantitative, more lasting, more eternal, more spirit engendered, more Christ-exalting than what I get every day in fellowship with Christ through his word and the spirit.
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And we are convinced of that truth within evangelicalism.
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Yeah.
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And it is false, it is erroneous at best, and it's heresy at worst.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:27.680
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:35.519
The fact that that man, this is Roman Catholic, I'm explaining Catholicism as somebody who believes in those 95 theses.
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.200
It it's it's shameful.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:38.400
It's shameful.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.559
We've left that, but we still act like it.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.880
We still act like we need that man.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.000
Like if he's got one hour and you've got all week to spend with the Lord, yeah.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:53.359
Don't tell me that what he can do in one hour is better than what the Lord has been doing all week through you.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:53.839
Right.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:54.799
Absolutely not.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:22:13.279
You you were a youth pastor for a little while, and one of the things that we say about Parents and specifically in youth ministry is there's a lot of parents who disciple their children by dropping them off at youth ministry on Wednesday nights, and sometimes they bring them on Sunday mornings as well.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:23.839
And it's up to the youth pastor to raise their kids spiritually, to shepherd their kid, and that's the only nutrition that that child gets.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.480
No, they don't get any teaching.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.359
That's I'm not saying all parents, I'm saying there's a large group of people.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:36.480
And this is one of the criticisms that we have towards parents in the way in the American church today and young families.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:39.519
The same is true about us as adults individually.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:47.920
There's a lot of people who, and this is kind of what we're talking about, they they leave all of their spiritual growth to their pastor.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:51.119
They don't feed themselves at all throughout the week.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.480
I think that's a huge thing for us to be weary of and be aware of.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.440
I want to talk about the mega church.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.279
Can I you got one more thing?
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.480
I just want one sentence.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:02.720
Yeah.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.480
Your pastor can't grow you.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:05.039
No.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:07.599
That's a misnomer.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:08.000
Yeah.
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:09.279
That's false.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:11.839
Like, I'm not attacking what you said.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:12.240
No.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.279
I'm saying that is a false belief.
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:17.519
The Holy Spirit gives the growth.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:18.160
Right.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:19.759
Your pastor does not do that.
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:20.640
Well, that's exactly what I'm saying.
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:26.000
If you think they're magic words that are coming from the stage, they're not, you are deluded.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.920
This is not a spell he's casting on.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:28.799
I'm gonna calm down.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:30.799
This is not a spell he's casting on you.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:34.559
Well, it's exactly what Paul said in what you referenced earlier.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:39.759
Some water, some plant, it's the Lord that causes the increase, right?
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:40.079
Yeah.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.480
I'm sorry, I just I that need to be said, I think.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:43.279
No, that's true.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:57.359
To recap what you said a second ago, the a lot of people think that the words that the Lord gives to your pastor are somehow different than the words that he could give to you or does give to you.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:13.359
Sometimes the words that he gives to you or the you know, revelation or whatever we want to call it is can be way better or much more rich than what he gives to your pastor, but we just we don't believe that or see that as regular parishioners.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:14.720
But the Levites.
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:16.799
It's like what Paul says in Ephesians 4.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:21.759
We are to grow up in all aspects into him, Christ, who is the head of the church.
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:22.799
That is Christ.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:24.799
He's the head.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.359
Yeah, the Levites in the Old Testament are the only ones who could touch and carry the ark.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:33.519
Now in Christ, according to Hebrews, we've all been made priests.
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.440
We all have access.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:36.480
Praise God.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:38.720
We boldly approach the throne of grace.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:40.559
That's the reason the veil was torn.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:41.119
Right.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.559
Never to be mended from top to bottom, not bottom to top.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:47.359
Anyway, I just fired up.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:48.640
I want to talk about this.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:54.079
We got off on the megachurch thing a minute ago, and we we talked a little bit about that.
00:24:54.160 --> 00:25:10.000
I want to go back to that for a second because I think when we talk about this idea of a CEO pastor, we often see that in mega churches and specifically these multi-campus church situations that are popping up more and more, especially in bigger metropolitan areas.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:23.920
But one of the things that you talked about that I want to unpack is this idea of the main pastor who does the primary teaching for all the campuses, is also supposed to be the shepherd.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:29.680
And I is there a situation, and this is I want to get your thoughts on this.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:48.160
Is there a situation where that person, because if you know anything about these types of setups, most of them are set up in such a way that each campus has its own campus pastor and campus worship pastor in in most of the multi-campus black churches?
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:48.640
Yeah.
00:25:48.880 --> 00:26:02.799
And then the the primary, you know, power hour, if you will, on Sunday morning comes from the main pastor, but but everything else, the shepherd role in a lot of situations comes from the campus pastor.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:20.240
So is there a way that you think is okay for that person who does the primary teaching on Sunday morning to not necessarily be the shepherd, but just be an I guess you could call him an evangelist or a a preaching pastor, and that's it.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.599
So feel free to disagree with me here.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.519
I'll also add the caveat of saying I don't know everything about the model.
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.119
Maybe there are people who do this in a healthy way that I'm not familiar with.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:40.799
A couple of thoughts that came to mind when you were talking about this would be you're describing a pope.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:47.359
We got bishops and archbishops, and we've got these people that oversee certain regions.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.799
And at the top we got the Pope who makes the decisions for us.
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:58.000
He speaks, he speaks ex cathedra, he gets up on a screen, and he stands on the balcony and he talks.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.720
Here we are again, back to Rome.
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:02.079
That's number one.
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:04.240
Number two, I'm not going back.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.920
Number two, I wish the listener understood.
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:18.240
Number two, I think it's important to understand to be a shepherd with a crook, you need to be close enough to grab the sheep.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:20.160
Okay?
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:22.000
That's number two.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:32.079
Number three, can a the question you're asking is can we have a pastor who is at the top of the model?
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.279
Trying to be charitable at the top of the model, right?
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.799
And he oversees and speaks.
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:47.279
The problem is we confer spiritual authority to the person who speaks the spiritual authority.
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:50.240
Right?
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:51.200
The scriptures.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:28:00.079
So if Pastor Driscoll is speaking back in the day at Mars Hill, that's the famous example of how it blew up.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:08.880
If he's speaking on the screen, but campus pastor says something that I don't like and I disagree with, well, I always got the guy who actually teaches me the Bible.
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:09.839
He's the authority here, right?
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:11.440
You can stay home and watch him on TV.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:11.759
Right.
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:12.480
We we can do that.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:13.519
And that and that's the other thing.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.640
I know you're really big on this.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:16.079
You may want to speak on this, right?
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.480
You've got you've got to create buy-in.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:27.119
And so when you have this multi-campus model, you might have a system that does not create or engender buy-in.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:28.000
Right?
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:38.880
You have people who, again, with the consumer model, we stream everything in, we pipe it in, we have all these services, we do all these things, we got all these people and all these moving parts.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:44.960
And it's really just to make everything sort of streamlined and comfortable.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:50.799
And you are consuming, especially when you're watching it from home.
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:55.039
I mean, COVID has totally changed the way that we've done church since 2020.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:56.079
Changed the landscape.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:56.799
Forever.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.640
We've gone back in a lot of ways, but it's not the same anymore.
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:01.039
Yeah.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:01.599
Mm-hmm.
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:05.599
I think we probably all see that at our respective churches and our respective roles.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:07.839
It's just not the same.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.680
It's totally changed the way we do church.
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:20.160
And there's some good things that come out of it, but there's a lot that has pushed people away from the actual central gathering of believers together.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:26.640
And that's a whole nother podcast topic that we could go into is just the gathering of believers and why is that important.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:52.319
But specifically talking about pastoral ministry, I want to also just to kind of recap, if I understand what you're saying here, you're kind of saying once you get to a certain size, instead of breaking off into certain different campuses, you're you're really better off creating different church plants where there's a smaller congregation where a shepherd can lead that congregation more effectively.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:53.440
Yeah, I am.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:59.440
I mean, uh the statistics will tell you like 90% of all churches in America are a hundred people or less.
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:00.960
Right?
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:05.440
Lots of us in this room, we'd flirt with that number at our churches and be above that.
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:05.759
Yeah.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:06.079
Right?
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:09.119
All of us, I think, would be above that at our respective churches.
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:15.680
But most of them have been small, and that's the way it's been throughout church history, except for rare exceptions.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:21.200
Antioch and Jerusalem and some of these central hubs in the New Testament in Acts.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:27.359
But for the most part, lots of house churches, lots of individual life on life contact.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:32.799
This is where we come back to what you and I were talking about the other day, Dalen, which is the word discipleship.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:33.200
Right.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.079
Yeah, I'm just throwing that out there.
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:37.440
Take it wherever you want to go.
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:43.119
I don't want to get off topic, but let's let's talk another that's a really good segue into where I want to go next.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:31:03.119
Just this idea, and I want to hear from Dalen too, from the sense of you've been a worship leader in multiple churches, and you've been in the in the planning process of these different churches as far as planning the service, behind the scenes of the inner workings, the structure, and those sorts of things.
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:17.359
I want to talk just a little bit about Jacob talked in the in the beginning of this episode about a pastor or not a pastor yet, but someone who maybe starts a ministry or wants to start a church.
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:25.839
And oftentimes we see that start as a Bible study or start as a small group of people, maybe in a home or in a small room or at a coffee shop.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.079
That's kind of where it begins as a grassroot.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:36.880
And you're a lot more genuine and close and tight-knit, and there's a lot more opportunity for that one-on-one discipleship.
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:45.599
As you grow, you can sometimes get away from that because it gets too big, but there's a need for structure.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:57.519
And so, really, what I'm getting at is how do you have structure in the organization without really being a quote unquote CEO pastor that we're criticizing?
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:03.920
Is because as you become an organization, a church is an organization, whether we like it or not.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:04.960
That's what it is.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:06.799
It has to have structure.
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:11.920
We can talk about how many programs are too many, but you you have to have some sort of structure.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:15.599
And so just give me your thoughts on that.
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:22.559
Yeah, I th I think this is something where being wise with resources can really help.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:23.039
Yeah.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:33.759
You know, I mean, uh there's different softwares for everything, but one of the one of the applications that we use all the time, and I'm sure you guys do too, Jacob is Planning Center.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:49.920
And, you know, that allows me as the worship pastor to plan the music and and you know, connect with what what the the pastor's gonna be preaching on, the the passage that he's gonna be preaching on, tie into that with our songs and what we're doing musically that week.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:01.200
And that kind of takes the reason I'm sharing that is that that takes sort of the structure burden off me and and our time that we get to spend in person together, right?
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:20.880
So that I can spend that time working with the musicians, you know, hopefully discipling them, walking alongside them, you know, being able to ask how their weeks are going, you know, and and I I think also structure and shepherding or decipling don't have to be mutually exclusive.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:40.079
Like, for example, we have it structured that after every rehearsal, we rehearse on Wednesday nights after church, and after every rehearsal, we have a time where we just talk and share updates about how you know each other's life is going and how we can we how we can be praying for each other as a worship team.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:54.319
I think stuff like that is really important to make sure that you're being intentional about integrating into your structure so that it it can be structured, but but also with a emphasis on personal discipleship.
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:56.079
Yeah, I I think that's good.
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.880
Lots of this is just keeping the main thing the main thing.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:33:59.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:00.799
We've got drift.
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:08.880
We all in in our ministries and our lives, our personal discipleship and walk with the Lord, we drift.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:09.360
Yeah.
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:11.039
Don't miss the forest for the trees.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:11.599
Absolutely.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:12.239
We drift.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:13.360
Do you do you guys see that?
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:14.079
Oh, absolutely.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:15.360
What in our respective roles?
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.559
I think it's really easy to drift.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:26.079
I I think when you especially people like us who we're gonna be in church every Sunday, by and large.
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:34.639
And sometimes that can become routine and and you can just your mind can drift away and check out.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.480
You're just kind of going through the motions.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.079
That's that can be an easy place to get to.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:52.800
One thing one thing that I want to talk about just as we wrap up here is I think this is really important for the listener more than anything.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:54.639
Why does this matter?
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:56.719
Why are we talking about this?
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:05.199
The this idea of a CEO pastor, how does this affect the people that go to that church?
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:11.599
And I know that most of us can speak on this from one perspective or another.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.880
We've all had some sort of interaction with this type pastor.
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.440
And so Taylor, I'll I'll just start with you.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.840
How does this affect someone that goes to that church?
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.000
You become a cog in the machine.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:35.280
You become a statistic rather than a disciple.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:36.960
An advertising metric.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:37.760
Yeah.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:41.519
You become a marketed group.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.199
You're surveyed, you're counted, you're tabulated.
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:53.360
Yeah, we do this number where we're pointing at heads, you become a part of people, not persons.
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:56.559
The Lord died for persons.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:57.039
Yeah.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.360
Not going to get into the whole Calvinism thing, but the Lord died for individual people.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:10.719
He died for human beings specifically, not a mass of faceless, nameless people.
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:11.519
Right.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:20.559
When we are in a model like this, especially, you know, a megachurch or or something like that, because I think that's how you phrase it.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:21.039
Right.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:28.559
When we're in a model like that, the tendency becomes my hands are not getting dirty.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:32.400
My life is not my life is not getting invested oftentimes.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:35.280
Throw my my coins in the coffer.
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:37.119
I lift my hands or I don't.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.599
I sit in the balcony, I I do whatever.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:42.000
I'm a consumer.
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:47.760
One of the big one of the big issues, and I don't know if you want me to talk about this, just tell me if you don't.
00:36:48.239 --> 00:37:02.719
One of the big issues with this kind of model that is created is the question of are we making disciples in church, or is the goal to make converts?
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:06.639
Are we preaching to potential sheep?
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:10.880
Or are we preaching and teaching and discipling the sheep that are present?
00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:24.639
Does the church exist and the pastor's job from the stage meant to be to build and edify the Lord's people or to evangelize the lost?
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:28.480
My answer would be the former, not the latter.
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:36.800
Your job is to feed the Lord's people, to teach them, to disciple them, to give them the word, be ready, preach the word in season and out of season.
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:39.840
And their job is to go and make disciples.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:41.840
Their job is to great commission.
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.519
Their job is to evangelize.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:38:00.320
One thing that comes to mind when you're saying that is the thing that we've talked about several times, and it's a criticism, especially in larger churches, is this idea that whenever the kids go to camp and you come back, and the pastor's first question is, Well, how many kids got saved?
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:00.960
You're right.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:03.199
How many kids got baptized?
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.440
Why why don't we have more people in Sunday school?
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:10.559
Last Sunday we only had 17 people.
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:12.159
Why did we not have 20?
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:15.280
Some of these questions that come up, the bigger you get.
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:24.079
And and there are people who have really good intentions as they grow a church, as they develop a ministry.
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:39.280
But it's it's a huge caution for someone who's in that role of a pastor to really be on guard that your intentions remain pure and you're focusing on shepherding your people and teaching people.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:48.079
I th I think a possible solution to to this problem could be we need to we need to redefine our metrics of success.
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:48.559
Yeah.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:39:12.159
We need to and and I guess my challenge would be instead of measuring our success by the number of people we get through the door, let's find a way to measure our success by and I I don't even know how you would do this, but you know, how how many how many hours are you spending in the Word with with someone from your church?
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:22.880
You know, or how many people are you spending time with outside of just when the doors are open at church talking about Christ?
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.119
Yeah, you know, that kind of thing.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:31.679
Is the church's job, like one of the questions we have somewhere buried in here, I hadn't found it, but I know we had it in there.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:35.360
Question is what is the goal of the church?
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:35.920
Right.
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:36.400
Right?
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:43.519
Like we we're if it's a business model, if it's an organization and it's not a business model, but it is an organization to your point, Landon, you're right.
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.920
The question has to be, what do we exist for?
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:51.199
Do we ask that question in our staff meetings?
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:56.719
Do we ask that question every Sunday morning when we get together and we plan service?
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:58.880
Do we ask that after rehearsal?
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:01.280
Do we ask that in our Sunday school classes?
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:03.119
Do we ask that when we greet each other?
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:04.559
Why do we exist?
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:06.719
Why is this church here?
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:14.159
I mean, you would do that in a business, you would do that, you would constantly realign your actions with your stated goal.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:14.800
Yeah, yep.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.480
Your mission statement.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:29.440
If if the Great Commission is our mission statement, to go therefore into all the world and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you, yeah.
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.880
Baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:33.039
Yeah.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:35.840
And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:36.320
Right?
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:37.119
If go ahead.
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.519
No, I was just gonna say just a quick caution here.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:41.519
We are talking about pastors.
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:53.199
So we're talking about this from a perspective of pastors being responsible for leading and shepherding their flock well, asking the question, why am I in the pulpit every Sunday morning?
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:54.800
Yeah, what am I here for?
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:58.800
When I'm the first one at the church and I turn the lights on, why am I doing this?
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.159
What is the point?
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.000
When I walk up and shake somebody's hand and says, How are you doing?
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:05.280
Can I pray for you?
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:06.960
Are you actually going to pray for them?
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.480
All of these things I think are kind of what we're talking about.
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:27.679
But I also want to caution as well, and we can talk more about this when we talk about a general church episode or topic, but this idea that this we're not just giving people that go to a big church, you know, a reason to leave their church.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:30.880
We're not saying everybody at a big church need to leave and go to a small church.
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:32.159
That's not what we're saying.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:47.440
I just want to caution the listener here because the listener also has a responsibility to serve their church and be a part of their church and be a good sheep, to be a good part of the flock.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:49.199
And so we'll talk more about that.
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:53.199
I imagine we'll have another episode talking more about church in general.
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:58.880
I have really strong feelings about the point you just talked about it several times at Chick-fil-A.
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:11.039
This is something I think that'll come back up in another discussion, but I kind of want to stop here just with that caution of there's two sides to that coin.
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:21.679
We're talking specifically about pastors, and and it's good for, but for the listener specifically on this topic, pay attention next time you go to church.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:25.920
Is is your pastor someone who is there to teach the word?
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:30.559
Is your pastor someone who really has a desire to shepherd their flock?
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:36.960
Is your pastor someone who wants to get up on stage and be on camera and be recognized for the things he said?
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:43.679
Is your pastor someone who wants to see their picture posted on Facebook with a really cool quote next to their head?
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.320
Is your pastor someone who wants the recognition?
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.039
Or is your pastor someone who doesn't want the spotlight?
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:50.639
They just want to see people saved.
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.360
Think about these things next time you go to church.
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:57.039
Think about these things next time you're a part of ministry.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:05.760
And that goes for Sunday morning in the spotlight, that goes for Tuesday in a men's group meeting, that goes for Wednesday night discipleship groups.
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:14.159
Anytime you're a part of something that the church has going on, think about these things in regard to your pastor and your church leadership.
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:16.480
Final thoughts before we wrap up.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:19.199
Yeah, definitely I would add this.
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.880
We've been talking about pastors this whole time, like you said.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:43.679
But if if we remember that the Great Commission is equally your responsibility as a sheep, part of the abusive pattern that we see, and we haven't touched on this, and I know we're not going to, but what I'm we can acknowledge there is a huge abusive pattern with pastors in the American church.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:46.079
We read about it on social media every day.
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:47.119
Absolutely.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:59.840
Part of it, part of it is that we have dumped and abdicated our responsibility on them for things that they burdens they were never meant to carry because you're unwilling to.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:20.559
So my charge would be to the listener, if you're not a minister or a pastor of some kind, my charge would be the church building, and some people may not like this, but the church building and the one hour that you meet there is far less important than you think it is because you are the church.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:24.320
You should be living out the Great Commission all the time.
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:26.800
Every one of the other six days.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:30.559
You should be taking the gospel with you everywhere you go.
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:33.119
You should be making disciples.
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:35.440
Whether that's your spiritual gift or not.
00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:38.800
You should be multiplying the flock.
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:39.360
Right.
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:41.119
You should be using scripture.
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:44.719
You should be praying for people, not just sending prayer hands on Facebook.
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:50.239
At the very least, you should be living your life in such a way that it exemplifies Christ.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:51.440
Absolutely.
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:56.800
And you there there should be something different about you when you're out there in the world.
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.119
I used to say this to the kids in the youth group all the time.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:03.440
They would say, I wish that you could be with my friend at my school and share the gospel with him.
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:08.320
And my point to them always was, he put you there with that friend, not me.
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:13.280
I'm with the school that I work at as a science teacher with those students.
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:15.119
He put you where you're at.
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:21.840
He puts you at your place of employment tomorrow, and you at your place, and you at your place, and me on my couch tomorrow.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:22.320
Yeah.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.440
Sound unemployed, but but but you you you get the point I'm making, right?
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:35.679
Like I just want to give that exhortation here is that pastors, we're following after Christ, not a man.
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:36.480
Yeah.
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:37.119
Right?
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:45.360
Yeah, and I would like to give a real quick charge to pastors who might be listening to this episode that to touch on the question you asked.
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.159
Are you asking yourself, why am I behind this pulpit?
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:49.599
What is my purpose?
00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:50.000
Right.
00:45:50.159 --> 00:46:00.800
I heard once, and I'll be really brief with this, but as a worship leader, that that the person I was talking to said they viewed their job as to be invisible.
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:05.679
Like I'm not supposed to draw attention to myself on the stage as a worship leader.
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:09.760
It's not about how good I can sing or play or whatever.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:11.280
It is about him.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.960
So the I should be leading the people to him.
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:17.840
I'm leading them to worship him.
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:22.880
And I would say the same thing to the pastor that it's not about you.
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:25.840
The moon reflects the light of the sun.
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:27.760
It doesn't have its own light.
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:28.559
Yeah, that's good.
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.800
And we are to be the same way, especially as believers in general.
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:33.519
I agree.
00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:38.239
But especially as a minister, you should be a reflection of Christ.
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:45.840
As you look into the miracle, the miraculous mirror of the word, you should be reflecting it back to the people.
00:46:46.480 --> 00:47:14.079
Can I also encourage the listener by saying your life and the impact, the scope of the impact that your life has for the gospel and for Christ is directly proportional, not to how gifted you are, but directly dependent, contingent, and proportional to what grips you and animates you, what moves you, what do you believe the reason for your existence is, and do you act in accordance with that?
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.519
That is not a pastoral thing, that is a human thing.
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:19.199
That is the church's calling.
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:21.119
Christ is our calling.
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.320
Right?
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:35.360
The impact you're going to make tomorrow when you wake up is not based upon how clever you are, or how good you are with words, or your education, or how much money you make, or where you're placed, or your spiritual gifting.
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:43.039
It is based upon your obedience, love, adoration, and worship for Christ.
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:51.519
The disciples, everywhere they went, Act says they were noticed to having been with Jesus.
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:53.519
Said this the other day.
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:54.880
Me and you.
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:11.280
The other exhortation is if we pray for revival, and we should, if we pray for revival, one of the last great revivals, the great awakening in the 1700s here in America, was started by the preaching of John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards.
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:15.119
Jonathan Edwards preached that famous sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:19.760
He read every one of his words in a monotone fashion.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:29.840
People were so terrified of the holy wrath of God that they ran to the river to try to put themselves out of imaginary fire, spiritual fire that they felt.
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:36.159
This is a deadpan Calvinist preacher who wasn't up there screaming bloody murder.
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:40.239
He was preaching the truth of scripture because he believed it.
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:45.039
And if you don't believe it, brother and sister in Christ, how is anyone going to believe you?
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:46.239
Well, that's good.
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:49.840
So that's my exhortation to whether you're a pastor or not.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.519
Yeah, for sure.
00:48:52.719 --> 00:49:14.239
I think this has been a really good discussion and one that we could really expand on in multiple different directions, and I anticipate we will, but hopefully we've given some the listeners something that they can take hold of and and really start to focus on as they move forward, just to pay more attention and be more than worry more about yourself than your pastor.
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:15.360
Yeah.
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:17.599
Absolutely.
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:25.679
Well, guys, thank you for joining us on Gospel Grandpa's for another episode, another good discussion about gospel topics.
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:37.599
As always, feel free to look us up on Facebook or on YouTube at the Gospel Grandpa's also reach out to us via email if you have a question about something we've said, if you want more clarification.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:44.000
If you just want to have more discussion with us, we'd we'd love to jump in there and have a conversation with you.
00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:46.880
That's gospelgrandpaws at gmail.com.
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:51.599
Feel free to send us a topic for something that you'd want to hear in a future episode.
00:49:51.760 --> 00:50:03.280
But as always, we we really are just looking to have a conversation about gospel centered things that hopefully glorifies Christ and helps people in their walk uh with the Lord.
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:06.159
So we'll see you again on the next episode.
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:07.920
But until then, y'all take care.