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00:01:06.921Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk about the gifted and twice exceptional brain and how it affects our thinking and experience of the world differently.
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00:01:11.522There are a lot of stereotypes and stigma around the term giftedness, and I'm here to challenge those.
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00:01:17.358I'm here to raise awareness and to have a conversation around the topic of what it means to be a gifted and twice exceptional adult.
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00:01:21.201Common experience among gifted folks is that they feel out of place.
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00:01:22.453They don't quite fit in.
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00:01:28.837They're too sensitive, too intense, too emotional, too overexcitable and too deep thinkers of the world and about themselves.
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00:01:32.795So if you have been called too much of about anything, this show is for you.
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00:01:33.878I'm Nadja.
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00:01:37.814I'm too loud, too colorful, too bubbly, too bossy and I love to talk too much.
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00:01:38.978So welcome to my world.
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00:01:40.242I'm so happy you're here.
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00:01:43.343Too bossy, and I love to talk too much.
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00:01:44.266So welcome to my world.
00:01:44.266 -->
00:01:44.990I'm so happy you're here.
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00:01:50.411So welcome everyone.
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00:01:51.593I'm glad to have you back listening in today.
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00:01:52.576Today we have Gail Post on the podcast.
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00:01:55.945She's a clinical psychologist, a doctor in clinical psychology.
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00:02:20.804She's a parenting coach and consultant, workshop leader, writer, parent of two gifted young adults and a clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania and she has been in practice for over 35 years and she specializes in intellectual and musical giftedness and twice exceptionalities.
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00:02:33.557She has written a lot of different blogs, chapters for books, articles, and she has also written a very amazing book which we're going to talk about today.
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00:02:40.754It's called the Gifted Parenting Journey a guide to self-discovery and support for families of gifted children.
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00:02:42.697Journey a guide to self-discovery and support for families of gifted children.
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00:02:44.299So thank you so much, gail, for joining today.
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00:02:46.562I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
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00:02:48.603Thanks for having me.
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00:02:49.525I'm excited too.
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00:02:50.425This is so great.
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00:02:53.512So I hope I said everything correctly.
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00:02:58.085Is there anything you would like to add, or is there anything I misspelled?
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00:03:00.812That's no, totally fine.
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00:03:13.860So, listening to your introduction, the topic you're talking about and specializing in do you have a gifted story of your own?
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00:03:16.177Can I address the elephant in the room?
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00:03:17.795Are you a gifted adult?
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00:03:22.175You know, I don't know, maybe probably.
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00:03:28.159You know I grew up in an era where they didn't really test for giftedness, or at least I wasn't.
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00:03:30.831I wasn't tested, but you know I was.
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00:03:35.061I was in, you know, the advanced reading groups, all that stuff.
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00:03:38.575I was a very I know that I was gifted in music.
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00:03:46.236I started music at a young age and performed at a high level but did not go into that as a career, so that was kind of a given.
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00:03:50.180But intellectually I was actually kind of an underachiever in high school.
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00:04:09.082I know it sounds weird, I have a PhD and all, but I think what Delisle refers to as a selective consumer, that I picked and chose what I liked, what interested me, the teachers I liked, and I gave it everything, and all the other subjects I kind of pushed by the wayside.
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00:04:18.981Of course, once I got into college I had to step up my game a little bit, especially once I realized I wanted to go into clinical psychology and go to grad school for that.
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00:04:30.997Then that was a very competitive program and I had to really learn how to study for the first time and all those skills that a lot of gifted kids and other kids in general don't have.
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00:04:39.896So my interest in this niche, in my clinical practice is really based on years of.
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00:04:47.255First of all, after leaving some of the agency type settings that I had been in and working in private practice.
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00:05:03.552I saw a lot of folks who were really bright, high achieving people and there were certain characteristics, sort of an intensity or an impatience with things not going as quickly or perfectionism, all those adult qualities that kind of stand out.
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00:05:05.117So that really piqued my interest.
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00:05:22.551And then, raising two gifted children I got involved with a local high school parent gifted parenting support group where we advocated for change with how children were identified, how services were delivered, all of that.
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00:05:28.129And once my youngest was about to graduate I decided I wanted to keep advocating.
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00:05:41.884So I started a blog which wasn't about myself, it wasn't about children or stuff kind of leaked in, but it was mostly about parenting advocacy, gifted adults, gifted children, gifted education.
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00:05:52.457And that blog, gifted Challenges, has been going on 11 and a half years now, so a long time, and I try to put out a post once a month if possible.
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00:05:59.442I also have a newsletter where I send that out for people to sign up, just with information going on out in the gifted world.
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00:06:05.719You know just different articles that I find interesting, and I've been writing for a range of different publications.
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00:06:16.332I'm working on two research papers, one related to resilience in gifted individuals and also the other based on some research I did prior to my book.
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00:06:19.860But mostly I'm, you know I write about mental health issues.
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00:06:28.693I also write on Medium, which is a popular site, and I write for a publication there called Wise and Well.
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00:06:44.493So just doing a lot of things, but my mission is really to get the word out how gifted folks children, adults and parents of the gifted really struggle and their needs are not recognized struggle and their needs are not recognized.
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00:06:48.822Reading through your book I felt there's so much love, you know, coming through for people and especially the parents.
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00:07:16.698So it's not another you know typical parenting book of like how to deal with your children, but it's really the book for the parents themselves and I could really feel how you would like to share some like love to the parents, saying you know what you do is enough and here are some tools and you're not by yourself and you know giving them like a virtual hug.
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00:07:19.991Somehow I felt Did I read that correctly?
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00:07:20.933Oh, thank you.
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00:07:22.899Yeah, thank you.
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00:07:24.772I'm so glad that that came across.
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00:07:32.096I mean, it really was kind of a labor of love because I have just encountered so many parents who struggle.
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00:07:33.438They don't feel understood.
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00:07:39.210They feel like they can't even talk about their child's successes because they're worried people are going to think they're bragging.
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00:07:45.780Or if they complain, like you know, if they complain like you know, gee, my child really, you know, is failing such and such a class.
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00:07:50.571They're like, oh well, don't worry about it because they're going to go to Harvard or some nonsense like that, you know.
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00:07:53.539So it's really tough on parents.
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00:08:04.615Also, a lot of the guidance out there in terms of child raising is geared toward normative, typically developing children, and it doesn't always fit in the parents of children.
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00:08:07.831They have kids who question everything, you know.
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00:08:13.010They're like little junior lawyers who are always trying to convince the parents otherwise.
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00:08:20.798Or they may have a lot of intensity or they may have a lot of rigidity, like not wanting to do certain things just because it doesn't feel right.
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00:08:24.129Many have a lot of rigidity, like not wanting to do certain things just because it doesn't feel right.
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00:08:30.557Many have a lot of empathy and sensitivity and feel for others and have a lot of compassion and other kids have some impatience.
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00:08:32.982They're frustrated that their peers don't get it.
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00:08:35.173Many don't fit in.
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00:08:44.192Often they have what is known as asynchronous development, where their maturity lags behind their intellectual abilities.
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00:08:45.459So people don't quite get it.
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00:08:55.077You know, their parents are in the checkout line and their child is reading the ingredients on a can of food, but they're having a meltdown and the checkout clerk is looking like what you know.
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00:08:56.080That doesn't make sense.
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00:09:01.702So it's a challenge for parents and they need to really appreciate it.
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00:09:15.962So you mentioned already a few difficulties that gifted parents face right If they have the luxury to really understand or getting the child tested.
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00:09:24.514I think that's also not always a given, depending the socioeconomic background, the school area, I believe in the us, for example.
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00:09:28.543In other countries that's not done either.
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00:09:45.036So you do mention, though, that parents usually have a good understanding, that they have the gut feeling, but sometimes they really don't dare say out loud oh, my child is actually gifted.
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00:09:50.743What would you say to those parents that are listening that they say well, I'm not sure.
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00:09:59.913Well, you know, first of all, the label is fraught with complexity because there's often this urgency about.
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00:10:06.540I need that label to validate what I see and there's so many different definitions of giftedness out there.
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00:10:11.776Typically an IQ of 130 or above is kind of the standard definition.
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00:10:18.893But there are many other forms of giftedness creativity, mechanical skills, artistic and creative skills.
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00:10:21.295I mean there's so many other medical skills, artistic and creative skills.
00:10:21.295 -->
00:10:22.475I mean there's so many other aspects of it.
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00:10:28.761But parents are often looking for that validation and children perform, even if they get IQ testing.
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00:10:31.263They perform differently on a given day.
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00:10:42.113You know, if they're tired or cranky or hungry, they're not going to do as well If they don't like the person offering the testing they're not going to do as well.
00:10:42.113 -->
00:10:43.016And things change as they get older.
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00:10:46.591Some parents want to get their children tested as young as three, and they're just usually not ready for that.
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00:10:51.483It's, you know, they might get a sort of a rough idea at that age, but it's.
00:10:51.483 -->
00:10:54.035There's a lot of development that still needs to happen.
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00:11:09.148Often, the sweet spot for testing is between about ages six and eight, but you could get tested at any point, and it just gives information about strengths and weaknesses, because we're not all at the same level.
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00:11:15.394We all have our strengths, we all have things that we struggle with, and I think it's really good information.
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00:11:17.081What you pointed out was really valid.
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00:11:18.487It's a very expensive thing.
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00:11:20.372I personally don't do testing anymore.
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00:11:21.896I haven't done that in a long time.
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00:11:26.492I think that people who do evaluations need to be doing them on a regular basis.
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00:11:34.975I don't do that, so I put that aside but, it does cost a lot of money when people get tested and insurance often doesn't cover it.
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00:11:51.280As you mentioned, there are some states in the US where the school systems offer the option for gifted evaluations, but every state is different here and I don't know if it's the same in different provinces or countries, but it's.
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00:12:03.829You know, some states don't even acknowledge the term gifted and others have a legal mandate that if your child needs to be tested they will be tested, have a legal mandate that if your child needs to be tested they will be tested.
00:12:03.829 -->
00:12:10.918But some researchers now are saying let's look at local norms, let's look at how the children are in the context of their classmates.
00:12:10.918 -->
00:12:23.375So, regardless of testing, if you have a teacher as a student who is really exceptional and grasps things quickly and eager to learn all that it know, it doesn't really matter if they're tested or not.
00:12:23.375 -->
00:12:29.060They need some kind of enrichment or acceleration, otherwise they're going to become bored and miserable.
00:12:29.060 -->
00:12:36.382So in some ways the testing isn't always that necessary, but it's informative, but again, not critical.
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00:12:59.805Yeah, you mentioned just something very important that you know the gifted children is not just a nice label to have because, as you also mentioned in the book, you know sometimes it can feel for others when you say, oh, I'm the parent of a gifted child, that they feel like that's a privilege and your child will succeed in life.
00:12:59.805 -->
00:13:03.988But, as we both know right, it comes with challenges.
00:13:03.988 -->
00:13:17.350The social, emotional needs of the gifted are different and, as you mentioned, they get bored or just don't perform very well in a regular classroom.
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00:13:31.162Right, right a regular classroom and also the asynchronous development, or if children have a learning difference on top ADHD right or autism, dyslexia, all of that.
00:13:31.162 -->
00:13:33.735That also makes it all more complex.
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00:13:48.382Right, yeah, I mean, you bring up a good point Children who are and adults who are identified as twice exceptional where they were gifted, but they also have a co-existing concern that can work against their gifted ability.
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00:14:05.345So someone with I should mention adhd or autism spectrum disorder, they struggle with how they use their gifted abilities and their giftedness may be masked and their, their exceptionality, may be masked, since schools often don't identify them.
00:14:05.730 -->
00:14:17.615I see this particularly with girls, that girls are often overlooked, because how those two conditions are manifest is really different depending on the gender of the child.
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00:14:26.181Boys are very quickly called out as having ADHD and in fact maybe they don't have it, maybe they're just highly energetic and they just want to run around.
00:14:26.181 -->
00:14:33.676They don't want to sit still because school's tough, you know, school forces kids to sit still at their desks and a lot of kids aren't ready for that.
00:14:33.676 -->
00:14:38.451So it does take some training and skill to kind of evaluate that.
00:14:38.451 -->
00:14:41.459But what we know is a lot of gifted kids are overlooked.
00:14:41.459 -->
00:14:51.973Certainly children who are persons of color, grew up in carverish homes, english language learners, children who just don't should the teacher, you know, look gifted, whatever that means.
00:14:51.973 -->
00:14:58.834So it could be that they're not super verbal, they don't talk a blue streak, they have very unique interests.
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00:14:59.975So they get overlooked.
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00:15:08.245And certainly the exceptionalities, everything from learning disabilities to a mental health condition, to ADHD or autism they get overlooked.
00:15:09.691 -->
00:15:28.000So I do not have children, but reading through your book and reading a lot about gifted children because there's a lot or currently I believe, a little bit more content targeted for children I can relate as my former self as a gifted child.
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00:15:42.831I wasn't identified in school but I could really relate to the story of not having to do homework and then, once school gets a little bit tougher, then you don't know how to sit down and study.
00:15:42.831 -->
00:15:59.878So that's always very interesting for me to read these stories and like, oh yeah, I experienced that and going through this material so kind of like healing my inner child, I feel like yes, oh good.
00:15:59.918 -->
00:16:34.620I'm so glad because it is such a reminder, because, regardless of what was going on academically in schools, most gifted adults, when they look back, they recognize some of the emotional features they're not always quite fitting in feeling socially awkward, feeling like they react stronger than their peers to different things, struggling with their sense of self, existential issues at an early age, finding their sense of identity, losing faith in some of the values that may have been tossed their way when they were younger.
00:16:34.620 -->
00:16:43.336Some stop going to religious services that their family goes to or they may question you know, why is there war?
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00:16:44.261Why is there poverty?
00:16:44.261 -->
00:16:54.195Like they're just really struggling on a deep level and I think, looking back, a lot of gifted adults see that in their childhood.
00:16:54.195 -->
00:17:20.634As I was writing this book, before I wrote it, I put together an online survey and sent it out through some of the gifted parenting groups and other websites and a lot of responses got 428 responses, which was amazing, and people answered some basic questions and they also shared some of their experiences in a very heartfelt way way.
00:17:20.634 -->
00:17:25.295But it was interesting, as you talk about not always knowing if you're gifted that 25% of the parents recognize that they were gifted even though they weren't identified.
00:17:25.974 -->
00:17:31.988Once they had a gifted child and they could see like, oh, that's not normal behavior, right?
00:17:31.988 -->
00:17:45.007You know, like I may have been told that I talked before I was one, or I may have been told by my parents that you know was reading before I was three and so I assumed that was normal when my child started to do that, and then I see the other kids don't.
00:17:45.007 -->
00:17:54.726So you know, we only have our own personal experience to draw on and you know, or what our parents shared about our experience growing up and that just seems normative.
00:17:54.726 -->
00:17:57.778And then a lot of times, you know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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00:18:07.270So gifted kids, often if they're biological children of their parents, their parents are also probably gifted or there's a lot of other relatives or siblings who are gifted.
00:18:07.714 -->
00:18:14.648So they kind of grew up in this conglomerate of giftedness and they just think that's the way the world works.
00:18:14.648 -->
00:18:15.441But it's not.
00:18:15.441 -->
00:18:16.246It's really not.
00:18:16.246 -->
00:18:22.045And you know, even for myself as a psychologist I should have known better, but I didn't.
00:18:22.045 -->
00:18:28.203You know, raising my own kids it's a whole different ball game and I didn't always recognize certain things.
00:18:28.203 -->
00:18:31.379I just thought, yeah, that's kind of normal, that's the way it should be.
00:18:31.379 -->
00:18:38.722You know, because I also wasn't a developmental pediatric psychologist either, so I wasn't as familiar with the younger ages.
00:18:38.722 -->
00:18:48.780But then, as I saw what some of the other kids were like volunteering in the schools when they were in elementary school, I would see what the rest of the class was like.
00:18:48.780 -->
00:18:51.927Oh yeah, they are different, for better or worse.
00:18:51.927 -->
00:18:56.898So now we got to do something about it and help them get through this without it messing them up.
00:18:57.541 -->
00:19:15.403Oh, I love that story and thank you for sharing this, and I just want to point out because in your book you mentioned that you know, when parents of gifted children get confronted with their own possible giftedness, that it's usually the women that might reject it the most.
00:19:16.987 -->
00:19:33.298Right, I know that was what some of the research that I read had pointed out that they're often like, no, it's probably the dad, or it's probably some uncle or something, but it couldn't be me Whereas the men were almost like they're more ready to jump on the bandwagon and be like yeah that was probably good.
00:19:33.298 -->
00:19:35.463But yeah, yeah, typical Now.
00:19:35.463 -->
00:19:38.939Hopefully that's changed because some of that research was from 20 years ago.
00:19:38.939 -->
00:19:42.688Hopefully women are more capable of recognizing their own strengths.
00:19:43.175 -->
00:19:45.361And I'm just going to refer to the first question.
00:19:45.361 -->
00:19:51.817I asked you if you're a gifted adult, and so probably very likely.
00:19:51.817 -->
00:19:54.859But yeah, I think for me you know using this term.
00:19:54.859 -->
00:20:02.464I think for me you know using this term, this label, for myself it feels weird saying I am a gifted adult.
00:20:02.524 -->
00:20:05.426It's not something you know.
00:20:05.426 -->
00:20:25.483One says, and I use it for advocacy and I know that's also a very big topic for you, right, Learning how to advocate for your gifted children so they get the support that they need.
00:20:25.483 -->
00:20:28.234So, and basically, me taking on this icky label, still feeling like okay, like Paula Prober said, like barely gifted.
00:20:29.195 -->
00:20:32.044I know, I love how she said that that was perfect.
00:20:32.254 -->
00:20:51.688So basically, but just saying it so that other people may feel like more comfortable embracing it as they go into adulthood, because gifted children grow up to be gifted adults and the problems don't go away, don't they right and in my, in my clinical practice I I work mostly.
00:20:51.788 -->
00:20:56.678I don't work with young children, I work with teens and adults and a lot of the gifted adults I see you.
00:20:56.678 -->
00:21:07.310You know it's the same stuff and maybe they feel a little more empowered, but it's the same stuff of finding their peers or finding a creative outlet or finding a job that meets their needs.
00:21:07.310 -->
00:21:19.587It's really challenging, lots of frustration that goes on and recognizing those gifted quirks and needs.
00:21:19.587 -->
00:21:25.003You know, not in a negative way, but you know just differences and needs.
00:21:25.003 -->
00:21:28.639It's so important to find the right fit and to be okay with that.
00:21:30.805 -->
00:21:44.476Yeah, and what I really loved about, you know, the book is that you focus really on the parents and say you know, good parenting starts with self-discovery journey.
00:21:44.476 -->
00:21:46.743So it's not so much about.
00:21:46.743 -->
00:21:50.534Here are the tools to help, you know, raise gifted children.
00:21:50.534 -->
00:22:02.019But it's really this let's go through this journey of self-discovery, even if this sounds a little bit counterintuitive because you might have, you know, kind of an emergency situation with your children here.
00:22:02.019 -->
00:22:11.048Do you want to explain a little bit why that is so important and what are some of the steps that you recommend in this self-discovery journey?
00:22:12.534 -->
00:22:16.563Sure, some of that, I think, comes from my psychology background.
00:22:16.563 -->
00:22:20.723Just that I feel that we learn if we can look inside.
00:22:20.723 -->
00:22:39.586That doesn't mean, like you know, hours and hours and hours of going over our childhood, necessarily, but it's more about looking at what we need, what we're truly feeling, kind of having that inner compass, understanding ourselves more and then looking at how we were raised, what our family of origin taught us.
00:22:39.586 -->
00:22:56.488There are certain automatic, reflexive behaviors and beliefs that it's like oh, that's just how things are done, it's just how we do things, and it may not be how you want to parent or how you want to just live as a gifted adult, just because that's how your parents raised you.
00:22:56.488 -->
00:23:00.713So, to really pick apart, you know what influences me.
00:23:00.713 -->
00:23:06.050So, whether it's gifted parenting or just gifted adulting, what influences me?
00:23:06.050 -->
00:23:07.735Is it my family of origin?
00:23:07.735 -->
00:23:08.717Is it my friends?
00:23:08.717 -->
00:23:09.941Is it my community?
00:23:09.941 -->
00:23:12.084Is it what I read about online?
00:23:12.084 -->
00:23:20.127Is it what my boss tells me to do, like what are the influences and which ones seem to fit and which ones don't?
00:23:20.127 -->
00:23:41.535And to have that sort of internal recognition that, oh, that doesn't feel right, that it isn't going to work, and, as a parent, to have that recognition about yourself, that you know I subscribe to certain type of parenting approach versus another, but also what works with my child and what works in the moment with my child.
00:23:41.535 -->
00:23:51.570So you might have a child, for example, that responds well to humor and you can sort of joke with them and, you know, kind of get them out of their stuckness.
00:23:51.570 -->
00:24:03.726But then there might be a certain point where you don't want to use humor because then they're going to feel devalued, like maybe they come home and they're really crushed because their best friend rejected them or they did poorly on a test.
00:24:03.726 -->
00:24:05.009That's not you know.
00:24:05.009 -->
00:24:13.346So to be attuned that attunement is so important, to be attuned to what your child needs in the moment and to have a whole toolbox of things.
00:24:13.346 -->
00:24:18.561You can use different strategies, approaches, but each child is very different.
00:24:18.942 -->
00:24:27.435Having two children of my own, I was really able to understand and actually be amazed at how different one child is from the other.
00:24:27.435 -->
00:24:31.545I think parents of only children often don't have that luxury to see that.
00:24:31.545 -->
00:24:36.224Well, you know, they may think everything that's going on is my fault, I'm doing it all wrong.
00:24:36.224 -->
00:24:42.083You know, as a parent, as opposed to no, they have a certain temperament and that's what we have to work with here.
00:24:42.083 -->
00:24:52.987So it's it's complicated, but again it's about looking deeply and doing that through a variety of different modalities.
00:24:52.987 -->
00:24:59.288So it could involve chatting with close friends who you really trust or a partner you really trust.
00:24:59.288 -->
00:25:02.802Chatting with close friends who you really trust or a partner you really trust.
00:25:02.822 -->
00:25:04.730It could involve reading, getting educated, learning lots of different approaches.
00:25:04.730 -->
00:25:11.826It could be joining a group for gifted adults or parents of gifted children and seeing what they think.
00:25:11.826 -->
00:25:20.588It could be talking to other professionals a teacher, a pediatrician, a physician, a psychotherapist who's trained in this.
00:25:20.588 -->
00:25:38.067So just finding a range of different tools certainly spiritual guidance can help some people creative outlets, drawing about it, writing about it, singing about it, reading about it, like whatever outlets you have, the more insight you have, because we're all growing and learning.
00:25:38.067 -->
00:25:44.043I mean, I'm still learning so much at this point in my life and it makes life fun to be able to learn.
00:25:44.043 -->
00:25:47.685So it's not like we suddenly figure it all out by the time we're 30.
00:25:47.685 -->
00:25:49.321That just does not happen.
00:25:50.635 -->
00:25:56.880Oh, we all think that, right, when we're small we're children, we're like if I'm an adult, I will have it all figured out.
00:25:58.684 -->
00:26:00.395Right, exactly, boy.
00:26:00.395 -->
00:26:01.640It's not the way it is.
00:26:01.961 -->
00:26:06.925No, that's the joy of life to continuously learn and grow.
00:26:06.925 -->
00:26:09.382And yeah, the self-discovery piece.
00:26:09.382 -->
00:26:40.063I really love that and I also see you know my friends who are parents finding out their children are twice exceptional trying to tell them that their own gifted journey might be really important for them to take on right now and not wait until you know the child has all the support and you have figured it out for your child because it's usually in parallel.
00:26:40.063 -->
00:26:47.865That works probably best when you learn also for yourself if you're a gifted or twice exceptional adult.
00:26:49.176 -->
00:27:04.620I just said, it is quite a learning experience and one that hopefully people can embrace and not feel bad about, because it's just another way of learning and not using giftedness as an excuse or as a badge of honor in some way.
00:27:04.680 -->
00:27:13.286But it's just a fact, you know, just like your eye color or your skills and talents in certain areas or the things that you really struggle with.
00:27:13.286 -->
00:27:23.321It's just something to work with and to figure out how to make it grow and blossom in a healthy way, rather than pushing it away or pretending it doesn't exist.
00:27:23.321 -->
00:27:48.978I mean, I've actually read articles online not as much lately but years ago where people would be like I'm not going to allow my child to be gifted, that's going to mess them up and so they're not gifted and I don't go along with it, or things like giftedness is only an elitist concept, it's only for parents who, you know, think too highly of their children, like all this negativity as it goes to.
00:27:48.978 -->
00:28:09.988There are cognitive differences across populations and and that's just the way it is and just to work with it, just like if a child required special education where they had cognitive deficits that made it harder for them to learn, you wouldn't say that doesn't exist and we're not going to help them.
00:28:10.228 -->
00:28:27.904I mean, it's really the same thing currently, what I hear in my surrounding is not so much the elitist, it's just learning for the first time about the concept, actually learning that this exists.
00:28:27.904 -->
00:28:36.937And they, of course they heard the term, but they had all this prejudice and would never assume this label were for them or their children.
00:28:36.937 -->
00:28:52.446And now they're confronted with this term, what it means to be different, getting some explanation for their own experiences, but it's usually a little bit of an emotional roller coaster in the beginning.
00:28:52.446 -->
00:28:54.261Yes, exactly.
00:28:55.737 -->
00:29:01.317It's really hard to take on the label yourself and also to deal with your child and to know what to deal with your child and to know what to say to your child.
00:29:01.317 -->
00:29:06.185So some parents don't tell their child at all.
00:29:06.185 -->
00:29:07.708They won't explain it to them.
00:29:07.708 -->
00:29:13.816Others, you know will, might go overboard, like celebrate like yeah, you're gifted, but it's you know.
00:29:13.816 -->
00:29:16.201You don't say yay, you know you're.
00:29:16.382 -->
00:29:17.725You know I don't know what.
00:29:17.725 -->
00:29:18.326You know you're.
00:29:18.326 -->
00:29:20.375You're a certain height.
00:29:20.375 -->
00:29:21.238I remember my youngest child.
00:29:21.238 -->
00:29:23.024I was like, what do you want for your 16th birthday?
00:29:23.024 -->
00:29:24.878And he's like I want to be six foot two.
00:29:24.898 -->
00:29:27.284I'm like it doesn't work that way.
00:29:27.284 -->
00:29:30.236You know, like you know.
00:29:30.236 -->
00:29:40.336But I mean cause you know you can't ignore just the reality of how people are, physically, emotionally, cognitively and who better than us, as parents, to explain it to our children?
00:29:40.336 -->
00:29:46.857Because if we don't, someone else will, or they'll figure it out themselves in a way that doesn't make sense.
00:29:46.857 -->
00:29:51.375So they they're not if it's not explained to them in a very matter of fact.
00:29:51.836 -->
00:30:00.567Yeah, you know you scored a certain amount on a test, so you're going to be in a program at school that's going to probably be more fun and enriching, but you know it's not a big deal.
00:30:00.567 -->
00:30:04.145It's just you know, like you already know, that you're good at math or something.
00:30:04.145 -->
00:30:09.427You know like it's just as matter of fact as it doesn't make you better than anyone else.
00:30:09.427 -->
00:30:19.405You're not better than the other kids, but you know, you see how some kids, you know, run faster or draw more accurate pictures in art class or whatever.
00:30:19.445 -->
00:30:24.557It is Like you see that and maybe you're good at, you know really good at math, and that's okay, you know, go for it.
00:30:24.557 -->
00:30:27.625But does it make you special or better than anyone else?
00:30:27.625 -->
00:30:34.268And to really drive in that concept that it's it's okay.
00:30:34.268 -->
00:30:37.442Otherwise they're going to wonder like, oh, is this what?
00:30:37.442 -->
00:30:43.041What I need to do in life is to be a super achiever or people will respect me where I have to.
00:30:43.041 -->
00:30:51.250If I don't get an A on every test, I'm not going to be gifted anymore when it has nothing to do with grades and all that.
00:30:51.250 -->
00:30:54.278So there's a lot of misconceptions that children will pick up.
00:30:54.298 -->
00:30:55.983It's sort of like sex education, right?
00:30:55.983 -->
00:30:59.945Like if you don't teach your children stuff, they're going to figure it out in ways that maybe you don't want them to.
00:30:59.945 -->
00:31:01.972So kind of the same thing.
00:31:01.972 -->
00:31:03.636I hadn't really thought of that until now.
00:31:03.636 -->
00:31:07.935But you know, like with gifted education, it's up to us to kind of guide our child.
00:31:07.935 -->
00:31:19.001Or to point out, like gee, when you were playing with the kid next door, you sounded kind of mad at them, you know, because they didn't figure out the rules of the game as quickly as you.
00:31:19.121 -->
00:31:23.528But you need to develop some patience that it might be harder for them.
00:31:23.528 -->
00:31:31.788Or I noticed when we went to this family party that you, you know, just played on your iPad the whole time.
00:31:31.788 -->
00:31:32.756You wouldn't interact.
00:31:32.756 -->
00:31:38.399And I know it's hard sometimes to get along with other kids, you don't know, but it's a good skill to learn.
00:31:38.399 -->
00:31:44.653So let's talk about what'll help you next time so that you figure out ways to feel more comfortable reaching out.
00:31:44.653 -->
00:31:51.866So again, it's up to us to kind of guide them, but we need to understand ourselves and our own beliefs and what's important.
00:31:53.055 -->
00:31:58.067Yeah, I can only say that's so true.
00:31:58.067 -->
00:32:36.304And you know, when I read your book and I am, you know I'm actually an HR professional and I work with leadership topics and being a great leader also starts with self discovery and you know, working on yourself as a leader before you start managing a team, so I was like, oh, that's parallel to, you know, parenting, and so I think people can really draw these parallels that you know, everything that you want to do and improve in your life starts with yourself and your self-discovery.
00:32:36.304 -->
00:32:55.045And especially if you're an adult who didn't learn this from your parents in this great way, as you described, this great parenting, you have to do this for yourself in adulthood right To kind of relearn and learn all of these lessons.
00:32:57.055 -->
00:32:59.404And how to you know, like you say, you're in HR.
00:32:59.404 -->
00:33:01.643I mean that's so complicated.
00:33:01.643 -->
00:33:04.641How do I work collaboratively with my colleagues?
00:33:04.641 -->
00:33:06.807How do I get along at work?
00:33:06.807 -->
00:33:12.826How do I push for promotion without stepping on toes or making enemies?
00:33:12.826 -->
00:33:16.898You know that's a whole nother topic that's so interesting to me.
00:33:16.898 -->
00:33:17.961That is work life.
00:33:17.961 -->
00:33:38.984And again, getting back to the gender differences you brought up about identifying giftedness, that women are much less likely to promote themselves in a work setting unless they feel like they are 100% solid and 100% sure of what they're doing, whereas men in some of the studies out there can be maybe about 70% there.
00:33:38.984 -->
00:33:43.238They don't have to feel like I have it down 100% before I promote myself.
00:33:43.338 -->
00:33:48.684And you know, come to my bosses and ask for a raise or ask for a different position.
00:33:48.684 -->
00:33:55.524So it's, I think, about recognizing our strengths that we bring to the table in a work setting as well.
00:33:55.524 -->
00:34:03.367Like you're saying, in terms of leadership, we have to be honest with ourselves, respectful of people we lead, or they're not going to respect us.
00:34:03.367 -->
00:34:08.101They're gonna, they're gonna respond out of fear, but they're not going to really learn from us.
00:34:10.206 -->
00:34:17.759Is there something you could draw parallels from, like advocacy for your children, but also advocacy for yourself at work?
00:34:37.646 -->
00:34:42.297I'm learning through these conditions or I have, you know, I have creative ideas that come up when I'm in certain settings, like just to kind of advocate for learning needs.
00:34:42.336 -->
00:34:49.599They may not be able to accommodate it, but to just put it out there and that also shows a level of self-awareness.
00:34:50.345 -->
00:35:12.533So, for example, I don't know how it is for you in Switzerland, but here in the States over the past 10, 15 years in a lot of businesses there's been this concept of open office setting, open concept where people are maybe at desks together but there's no doors, there's no way to go off privately.
00:35:12.533 -->
00:35:17.727And I think that finally realizing that doesn't help productivity.
00:35:17.727 -->
00:35:26.169There's way too many distractions, it's too communal, it's not going to help people, especially if they have work.
00:35:26.169 -->
00:35:30.729They have to focus on the computer about writing or whatever it's going to take away from them.
00:35:30.729 -->
00:35:34.718But I think that's a concept that will go by the wayside.
00:35:34.718 -->
00:35:50.090But if that's the case and someone works in an open concept works situation, they might be able to say you know, is it okay if I go over to that you know conference room when it's not in use, just because I need peace and quiet to get my work done?
00:35:50.090 -->
00:35:55.161That kind of a a thing, the best you can advocate for your own productivity.
00:35:56.043 -->
00:36:13.177I would assume that most caring employers, if they can accommodate it yeah that's obviously not true of every work setting, certainly that's just and also like what I see is, you know, light sensitivity, noise sensitivity.
00:36:13.177 -->
00:36:21.289So open offices pose a other level of complexity, intensity and overwhelm.
00:36:21.289 -->
00:36:33.436And, if you can, you know if your employer allows for a day working from home, for example, or something like that, or noise, noise-canceling headphones.
00:36:36.405 -->
00:36:37.347But it's a trial and error.
00:36:37.347 -->
00:36:51.371So I think it's also something to be bold and try out and then be bold and ask for it, because if nobody else does it, it's usually uncomfortable to be the first to ask.
00:36:52.625 -->
00:37:08.972Yes, exactly, and I think if it's done in a kind collaborative team building capacity like you know I know I work best when X, y and Z are in place then it's hard to argue with that.
00:37:09.133 -->
00:37:13.695But you know some work settings are not great and people suffer and it's really unfortunate.
00:37:13.695 -->
00:37:15.285But even if you know a gifted settings are not great and people suffer and it's really unfortunate.
00:37:15.285 -->
00:37:32.907But even if you know a gifted adult is in a work setting that is difficult for them because of the pressures they experience, you know to at least do things to support themselves outside of work or at work, to find peers, to find friends, find people to have lunch with.
00:37:32.907 -->
00:37:34.794You know something to kind of take the edge off.
00:37:36.446 -->
00:37:43.394What I also encountered is I'm also working as a coach, as a gifted and neurodivergent coach.
00:37:43.394 -->
00:37:57.919There's two types of clients the clients that come and would like to learn more about their giftedness and how they can live an authentic life true to themselves.
00:37:57.919 -->
00:38:08.747And then there's clients who, now that I know, I will easily identify them and tell them that this is not the way I work.
00:38:08.747 -->
00:38:16.300But there's clients that come, they know they're neurodivergent but they want to coach just to mask more.
00:38:16.300 -->
00:38:20.836They want to present more quote unquote neurotypical.
00:38:20.836 -->
00:38:22.331They want to fit in more.
00:38:22.331 -->
00:38:24.052How can I fit in more at work?
00:38:24.052 -->
00:38:39.475How can I fit in, you know, just more in the world and present as a neurotypical person or a non-neurodivergent person, and I think that's, in my opinion, quite sad and not living through to themselves.
00:38:41.449 -->
00:38:55.492Yeah, it's really a tough dilemma because so many have suffered already throughout their childhood feeling different, feeling misunderstood, and then they have this dilemma as adults, like when can I truly be myself?
00:38:55.492 -->
00:39:04.811Or when do I have to try to figure out how to conform with, say, the work culture, the social milieu, whatever I mean.
00:39:04.811 -->
00:39:10.188It's really, it's really a tough dilemma and I think that affects, you know, everybody.
00:39:10.188 -->
00:39:14.898But it's certainly harder for folks who are neurodivergent to figure out.
00:39:14.898 -->
00:39:16.688Okay, who can I be?
00:39:16.688 -->
00:39:26.056How can I be authentic and genuine wherever I am, even if it might make some people uncomfortable, or is there a way I can educate them a little bit if they don't understand?
00:39:27.967 -->
00:39:54.251Yeah, finding safe spaces to start unmasking a little bit and of course we cannot, as you mentioned, we cannot walk unmasked all the time usually in our world, unfortunately but also knowing when is it safe to be myself and when is it appropriate to hold a little bit back and finding this path and the concept of masking.
00:39:54.271 -->
00:39:55.596It certainly happens a lot with neurodivergent folks.
00:39:55.596 -->
00:39:57.845Hold a little bit back and finding this and you know the the concept of masking it's.
00:39:57.845 -->
00:40:01.690It certainly happens a lot with neurodivergent folks.
00:40:01.690 -->
00:40:08.208But also, just you know, straight out, gifted folks, without twice exception, in hobby, often had to mask who they were, what their interests were Once they hit middle school.
00:40:08.208 -->
00:40:12.594Once they hit, you know, 12 or 13 years old, they had a choice.
00:40:13.434 -->
00:40:30.856If I don't, do I fit in and tone down my interests, my personality, my energy, my enthusiasm, or do I just, you know, find at least, hopefully, a small group of peers who will accept me as who I am, even if I'm not going to be the popular kid?
00:40:30.856 -->
00:40:40.190It's a really tough one and I think it's manifest differently with boys and girls and certainly now with children who are non-binary.
00:40:40.190 -->
00:40:59.472But even prior to that, just gender wise girls often feel pressure to be attractive and fit some feminine stereotype which often means I can't be nerdy, I can't be good at math, I can't be a high achiever or I won't be popular.
00:40:59.472 -->
00:41:06.312And boys often feel pressure to be tough and masculine and hide their feelings and not be sensitive.
00:41:06.312 -->
00:41:29.285A lot of studies have found that for middle school age kids, gifted boys who are also athletic and who have leadership skills tend to fare the best, that sometimes their you know kind of nerdy giftedness is excused and accepted, whereas those who are not athletic or don't have strong leadership skills really suffer.
00:41:29.625 -->
00:41:30.066Hmm.
00:41:30.066 -->
00:41:48.247So I hope with our conversation we can change a little bit at the also the self-esteem of gifted adults and gifted parents, and through them, also to gifted children, and challenge these gender norms.
00:41:48.247 -->
00:41:54.759Is there anything else that you would like to share with us, something that you wish people knew?
00:41:54.759 -->
00:41:56.829Something you wish you knew earlier?
00:41:58.573 -->
00:41:59.655That's a great question.
00:41:59.655 -->
00:42:08.517I just think a lot of this is about really accepting who you are and it's okay to be different.
00:42:08.517 -->
00:42:16.818It's okay to not fit the norm and to find people who will support that in your life.
00:42:16.818 -->
00:42:26.670I know sometimes people are in difficult jobs or neighborhoods where differences are not accepted and they can't always change that up.
00:42:26.670 -->
00:42:31.367But if there's some way to connect, there's a great online community out there these days.
00:42:31.367 -->
00:42:40.893So even if you don't have people in your neighborhood who connect with you, you can find people online many times and just to appreciate it's okay to be different.
00:42:40.893 -->
00:42:42.338You don't have to feel that way.
00:42:44.905 -->
00:42:48.894Yeah, thank you, and it's also great to hear that for myself.
00:42:48.894 -->
00:42:50.597Thank you so much for sharing that.
00:42:50.597 -->
00:42:55.115If people would like to find out more about you, connect with you.
00:42:55.115 -->
00:42:58.295Where is it best for them to find you on the internet.
00:42:59.425 -->
00:43:00.588I'm in a bunch of places.
00:43:00.588 -->
00:43:11.336My website is just my name, gailpostcom and g-a-i-l-p-o-s-tcom, and there's links to other ways of connecting.
00:43:11.336 -->
00:43:29.005But I also have my blog, which is Gifted Challenges, and again, there's lots of articles there, as well as articles that I don't write, but other things that I find interesting that are through my newsletter, or things I post on Facebook, twitter and Instagram.
00:43:29.005 -->
00:43:30.650I don't do as much on Instagram.
00:43:30.650 -->
00:43:32.796It doesn't seem like a medium that really works for me.
00:43:32.796 -->
00:43:46.530I don't even do that much on Twitter anymore, but I have a Facebook page, not my personal Gail Post page, but my Gifted Challenges page that, if you're on Facebook, might be worth checking out Because, again, I do post lots of different articles there.
00:43:47.353 -->
00:44:04.258And you know, if anybody's interested in my book, all the different bookseller sites on Amazon, barnes, noble, on the publisher site Gifted Unlimited and other smaller sites, but mostly, hopefully, if you want to connect, I'd be happy to talk to you further.
00:44:04.258 -->
00:44:26.739I do offer psychotherapy, although I don't offer psychotherapy abroad, but I do in the States and I have something called SciPack so I can see people through telehealth do in the states and I have something called sci-pack so I can see people through telehealth, and it's about 40 different us states at this point authorized to do that, and I do coaching, we'll say, for parents, but also some gifted adults you know, worldwide as well.
00:44:26.739 -->
00:44:30.047So anyway, I appreciate you having me here.
00:44:30.047 -->
00:44:35.739This has been lovely to chat with with you and learn more and also get your perspective on things.
00:44:36.164 -->
00:44:47.007Thank you so much for joining and I will link all the links that you have provided in the show notes so people can just go down and click, so they don't need to go and Google so they find it.
00:44:47.007 -->
00:44:54.548And you just mentioned you offer therapy in the US, in about 40 states, through telemedicine.
00:44:54.548 -->
00:44:57.846Is this for children or also for adults?
00:44:58.908 -->
00:44:59.309Adults.
00:44:59.309 -->
00:45:12.687Once in a while I will see an adolescent, but I usually don't like to do that across state lines, just because if they need to have other resources, I wouldn't know resources in their area.
00:45:12.727 -->
00:45:14.030That's great to know.
00:45:14.030 -->
00:45:19.219Gifted adult therapy in the US through telemedicine.
00:45:19.219 -->
00:45:21.713They can come and reach out to you.
00:45:21.713 -->
00:45:22.870Be careful what you wish for.
00:45:22.870 -->
00:45:27.612You might get a lot of calls oh gosh, and coaching worldwide.
00:45:28.025 -->
00:45:32.697On my website there's a link to the thing called SidePack P-S-Y-P-A-C-T.
00:45:32.697 -->
00:45:40.896That shows what states have agreed to that legislative concept so that they allow for that.
00:45:40.896 -->
00:45:42.631But not every state does.
00:45:42.631 -->
00:45:43.274Okay.
00:45:43.829 -->
00:45:44.664Thank you so much.
00:45:44.664 -->
00:45:56.766Thank you so much, gail, for being here, thank you for sharing, thank you for your time, for your insight, for your lovely book and thank you for the listeners to tuning in and we'll see you next time.
00:45:56.766 -->
00:45:57.407Thank you.
00:45:57.847 -->
00:45:58.931Thank you, take care.
00:45:58.931 -->
00:45:59.412Bye.
00:46:01.658 -->
00:46:04.987I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned something new.
00:46:04.987 -->
00:46:08.815And if you did, please like, subscribe and leave a review.
00:46:08.815 -->
00:46:15.806And if you feel like somebody else that you know could profit from this, please send them a link to this show.
00:46:15.806 -->
00:46:34.373And if you want to learn more, you find everything at giftedunleashedcom and you can also subscribe to the newsletter there, so you will always be up to date for new things that are coming, and all the information that we mentioned today in the episode will be on the show notes for the episode.
00:46:34.373 -->
00:46:42.501So everything is right there for you and, with that said, I wish you a wonderful day and I see you next time.
00:46:42.501 -->
00:46:43.305Bye.
