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Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders who want to help their companies execute faster.
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As always, we're virtual.
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I'm at home in Bucks where the sun has just come out after a grey morning.
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And Vicky, where are you today?
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I am still in deepest dark at Oxfordshire, or am I?
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Or are you?
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Sorry, that is an in-joke between Sam and I because I'm never in Deepest Dark at Oxfordshire.
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I'm always in Deepest Dark Buckinghamshire, the same as Sam, but for some reason I seem to have been located in Oxfordshire for the last few years.
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It's just kind of more or less Oxford by the time you get up to where you are.
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So we're on the border.
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We're on the border.
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So having clarified that for our listeners, we got on today.
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Well, Sam, as you have done so many podcasts with us, you will know that I'm always very enthusiastic about the guests on our podcast.
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But today is a really special one for us because today we have, I'm not going to say just a client with us, but a super, super special client from my perspective because we've got Okta on the podcast today.
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And I have been working with Okta since November 2019.
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And in reflecting and preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about it.
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And yesterday I was doing a train the trainer session with Tony Roberts, who is another super talented member of Okta customer success team.
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And it took me back to a conversation that I had with Tony back in the kitchen at Okta in November 2019, where he told me how concerned he was about how great the culture was within Okta and customer success, about how fast the company was growing and how worried he was that they were going to lose this great culture as they grew.
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And in doing the train the trainer session with him yesterday, I went back to the very first training deck that we used.
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And the title of that deck that we always go back to is Building Solid Foundations for Growth, which is what these guys have done.
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And we're going to share this today, but we're going to share it in a slightly different way because I think for this to really resonate, we need to make it more personal.
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And so what we have today is Andy Bryars is back with us, who recorded a podcast with us last year.
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So he's going to give us the context to start with.
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But we've also asked Jamie McDonald to join us because Jamie has been on such a journey with Okta over the last few years, particularly moving from an individual contributor role to a leader role.
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And I think he's got such a valuable story to tell.
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Well, ladies and gentlemen, that's all we've got time for on the podcast today.
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So thanks for listening.
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That is my longest interception ever.
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I'm so cruel to you.
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You are I could take it though.
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So let's introduce our valued guests today.
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So Andy, maybe you can go first.
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Just tell us a little bit about yourself, refresh people's memories from your earlier appearance, please.
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Yeah, so uh thanks for inviting us, and uh really nice to be here again.
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Um so just a reminder, I'm lucky enough to uh be running the AMIA Customer Success Team here at Okta.
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Um, and I'm really delighted that we're gonna get to shine a light on Jamie's story.
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I've been involved in working with Jamie for coming up to seven years now, and between us we've built this team from the ground up.
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Um there's there's around 35 of us, and I'll get Jamie to go into the detail, but we're going through a lot of change, organizational change as we go through growth.
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Uh and I'll touch on that a little bit later.
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But um, most importantly, since we met Sam, we I think we recorded in in the middle of lockdown in COVID.
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And uh the most insightful thing for me in the last uh year is that we met the team for the first time all together, which uh you know never happened before because um half the people joined in in the pandemic, and we're meeting customers again.
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So uh it's great to be coming back out out of the pandemic, regardless of all the problems we've got around the world, um, and to actually be seeing customers because that's what we we enjoy doing.
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Andy, could you give us a little bit of information on how the team has grown?
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And also um, it would be great if you can share how you're using Beacon Force.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So just a level set for everybody who's listening to this.
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Ox is going through a rapid hypergrowth of over 50% year-on-year growth.
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Um, we've got a change in leadership, um, and there's a new level of discipline um and rigour to how we're going around things.
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Um, we're actually targeting to grow from 1 billion to 4 billion in the next three years.
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So that's that's the sort of rate of growth we're expecting.
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And in order to achieve that, we are looking at our operating model and how we transform that for this next phase of growth.
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Um, so we're really focused as a team on how we navigate through a huge amount of change.
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And last year, just a reminder for the listeners that we acquired uh AutoZero, which is a customer identity platform, one of the uh leading vendors in that space for 6.5 billion.
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So, in the middle of all our all our growth, we're also attaching uh another significant business into that.
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So, what we're finding is our current models won't scale for what we need in the future.
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So, what what we've done uh since we last spoke is we've built out, or we're building out a center of excellence, which Tony Roberts is actually leading, so that we can become more repeatable and we can drive best practice.
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We're building out our own technical strategists, which are effectively architects, because our products are getting wider and deeper.
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So we need more technical expertise to help with conversations with customers.
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We've introduced a third-party outsourced organization to help us in some of the um smaller customers that we are still responsible for.
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And we're working really closely with our counterparts in the US that are building out digital services.
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So for me, that's really exciting as a leader that we get to play in both digital, uh outsourced and our own customer success motion in one entity.
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Um all that said, and all this change, we're looking at how we our delivery model, operational model, and how we operate that from next financial year.
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Now, where does Beacon Force fit into that?
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So for us, managing through all this change is really important that as a team we are fixed on a single purpose and that our values are top of mind.
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And and Beacon Force allows us to do that, it keeps it top of mind every day.
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Uh for those of you not aware, you ask a you get asked a few questions, uh, it takes a minute, two minutes, uh, and it maps how you're executing.
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So if you're highly stressed, we could see that if you're bored, uh, but ideally we want to be what they call the flow.
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Um, so uh I hope that answers your question there, Vicky.
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But uh Beacon Force is now embedded in uh day-to-day operations.
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Great sense.
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Maybe Jamie, you would be so kind as to give something of a potted career history, how you got to where you are today, please.
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Of course.
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I work as the regional manager uh for customer success.
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I manage the UKI and the South Amir regions for Okta.
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So I guess I think what's important actually is uh way back before I just started my career when I was at university, because I actually did product design, which was an interesting start into my tech career, because it what it was really about was uh it was user-centric design and problem solving.
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Um they sort of taught me how to break things down to um, you know, sort of a bits and bytes level, and then rebuild it centered around the user.
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And I think what I learned there, I've taken through my career, certainly in uh customer services, uh, it's really stayed with me.
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Um and some of the the roles I've had where we have been helped to sort of build and develop the service or the frameworks and engagement with customers, it's really set me up for being able to help develop that sort of thing.
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Having done product design, I jumped straight into becoming a systems administrator, rolling out NT351 and Windows 95 on the desktop.
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Uh, that was great fun.
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Um long time ago now.
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But having done that and then moved into third line support, I took a bit of a career change.
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And rather than really focus on the on the technical side, I moved into uh technical account management at Microsoft.
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And that was uh an absolute fantastic role and a fantastic time to be there.
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They were scaling quite rapidly uh back then.
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So we actually moved from something like 70 technical account managers to 120 in about two years while I was there.
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And uh there was a great environment where one of the key taglines was don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.
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And again, having that kind of environment to grow and develop in back in my early career really helped shape and develop my sort of later years as well.
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So from being a technical account manager there, I bounced around in service delivery roles.
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I actually took a couple of uh team leader roles, uh, one with a company called Lenovo, just as um, it was actually the Think brand, which uh Lenovo bought from IBM.
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I uh got hired for a team leader role.
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And when I arrived on the day, they told me there was no team leader role.
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There was only a technical account manager role there for me.
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So my management career didn't uh start till a little later on.
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But sort of moving forward, I went back to Microsoft for a number of years and then I moved to Citrix, which uh Vicki, I know you know very well, but I was hired as one of the first three uh customer success managers globally for their new customer first organization.
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So we were tasked with building what a customer success manager was, what they did, what was an operating model, what was the engagement framework with customers, et cetera.
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So that was a really interesting time and function to help develop that.
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From there, I moved to Oracle, but they were looking for customer success managers that could span multiple product pillars to support their largest customers, you know, the largest banks and uh enterprise organizations.
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So again, I helped them develop sort of a different engagement framework based around customer success supporting their customers, which stood me in great stead for when I moved to Okta, which was now just nearly seven years ago, as the first Okta CSM hired in AMIA.
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Great, thanks for that, Jamie.
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Good canter through your career today.
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Maybe you should give us a bit more detail on your role today as at Okta and your journey into management, if you don't mind.
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Of course.
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Yeah, started at Okta as a senior CSM.
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Being the first customer success manager on the ground here in AMEA, we didn't have a very comprehensive engagement, customer engagement framework.
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So uh there was a lot of um work to do in helping build out the the customer success function, how we work with customers.
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Back then there was uh we were growing again, still at 50% year on year.
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So uh there was a lot of opportunity ahead of us.
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We'd spoken, I'd spoken to my uh the manager who who hired me about possible leadership roles.
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But when you know when you're growing at 50% of one person, it it still takes time to build out the function and get to a size where you need that kind of management structure.
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So we sort of worked very hard supporting the largest customers in Amir.
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Um, but as we were getting to a size where we needed that management structure, I actually went through a couple of impactful life events which really sort of derailed me.
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So I lost my father and my wife uh soon after and was diagnosed with cancer.
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So um it really, I really wasn't in a good position to move to a manager role, which you know, everything uh being considered, I think, was uh the best thing for Okta anyway, because at that point Andy moved into the manager role and has been absolutely fantastic developing and growing the organization.
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And I'm so glad it worked that way.
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These things do work out at times.
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But you know, Andy and Okta supported me through that time.
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I continued my career and developing in role as an IC, but then the opportunity came a little later on, back in sort of 2021, to move into a player manager role.
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I had my first three people to to manage.
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The player track player manager transition is always interesting, isn't it?
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Um, you know, I remember doing that, and it you know, instantly your your friends are slightly wary of you because you're you're sort of the boss now.
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It's uh it's a funny old, funny old transition, isn't it?
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It is, it is, and I I I think it's probably the hardest transition to do into that kind of role.
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It really is.
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But also not just because you know, management is a different framework, is a completely different role to an IC.
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And trying to do two different roles at the same time is is really not easy.
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Um and it's something that we we we try and avoid now looking at our teams as much as possible, just because the stress that it can put on someone, and you know, trying to have one head for their customer role and then one head for their their management role.
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We went.
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And yeah, the the first, you know, me and Tony working through it, it was kind of challenging.
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Um, it got a little easier uh later on, and now we've got a um you know a really good grasp of what we need to do, what's best to do, and how to help people transition, as we have recently with Sandy as well.
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For me, what Jamie did through that transition, he shared leadership qualities before we promoted him into a former manager.
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And what I find really interesting now is Jamie's applying that same methodology to individual contributors in his team that want to step up and become a manager or do a different role.
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And we're showing that you can be you can show leadership qualities without the formal title.
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And so we've got stretch goals for everybody in the team, and it's I think it's paying dividends for everybody.
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That's a really good point.
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I think that makes sense.
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I think um I don't whether it's probably not relevant to Okta, I suspect, but I do think businesses have to be careful about making people do roles with management responsibility without formally promoting them or uh or paying them appropriately.
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A friend of mine's been through a difficult situation where she's been effectively promoted without being given the job title and without being given any pay rise.
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So she's left.
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You know, she'd be happy to take on the additional responsibility, but they're they're not treating her right.
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I suspect that's rather different, a doctor.
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The the other, the other counter of that as well, Sam, is kind of what Andy was alluding to there is you can be a leader without having direct reports and leading different areas of the business and showing leadership.
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And I think that's what the customer success team, you know, as Andy said, they're all they've all taken on some kind of responsibility.
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So they're all being challenged, which is when you go back and look at Beacon Force and seeing if the team are feeling challenged and seeing if they're growing, we can see that and see where people have got gaps and actually feel like that they need more challenge and they feel because we all need to feel like we're continuously learning.
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Of course, yeah, and I think uh that that that is a really good point, Sam.
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And so, you know, we've got an opportunity at the moment how we are adapting to manage and support the South Amir region as they grow and develop.
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So we don't have enough accounts or uh revenue there to put a formal structure in.
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But one of our team has showed great leadership potential, has got some fantastic skills and experience, and especially um experience in the region.
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Move them now into a team leader role to start evolving and adapting and just to get their arms around the region.
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Um, he will be looking to then move into a manager role when we have enough um CSMs, when we have enough revenue there, and then moving into the regional manager role and growing and developing with that region.
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So, you know, we haven't thrown them into having all the responsibility and all the job yet with no sort of promotion.
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They're going to be slowly growing and expanding as the region expands, and they will get those promotions as they um as they build that team.
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So that's like a phased approach, isn't it?
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And it and again, going back to we all want to feel challenged and that we're learning, it's it's continuous growth, but you're giving them a path to to go on, and I think that is clear from the work that you've been doing with the rest of the team as well.
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And and what you've experienced yourself.
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Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
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It's um a fantastic environment to be able to do this.
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I think that's what my friend didn't have was a defined path and support from managers to show her the way into the position that she was effectively doing.
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So let's talk about obviously you've expanded rapidly.
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I presume you've got a process, a journey for your new starter.
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Perhaps you could talk about that a little bit, please.
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Yeah, of course.
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Um, so I was I was I was thinking about this earlier, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized how much we do for new starters and how comprehensive our onboarding system strategy and process is.
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Um it's quite phenomenal.
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I've I've not known this from any other company.
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And I think you know, a lot of this has been uh helped, has developed over time through, you know, Andy, Tony, myself, but also with the work we've done with with Vicky and Amplified.
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Um so I really think that the the process starts in the interview process.
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So when we go through, when we start interviewing someone, they've got the opportunity to meet between six and eight members of our team between the managers and CSMs.
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So we have a very comprehensive uh process which um takes them through meeting the CSMs individually, meeting the team managers, and then uh a group presentation.
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But that gives both parties the opportunity to get a really good idea of what the people, the culture, and the the company is like.
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So, you know, for me that's when the onboarding starts.
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It's about making sure that someone is making the right decision to move to your company when they actually get on board with us.
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It then, I mean, the we we start sort of with the official team.
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So we have an official buddy um who runs a weekly meeting and uh talks to that person about all kinds of things, everything.
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Um the the manager, the team manager will have to start with daily catch-ups with that uh new person.
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They'll obviously move probably out to weekly, etc., as they get onboarded.
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The first three days are official Okta onboarding, so they get completely immersed in what it is to be Okta and what it is to work here.
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From day four onwards, we we we um move them into our 30, 60, 90-day CSM onboarding induction program.
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So the first month typically they are focused on on online training, training courses, gaining the knowledge and experience of our platform products, etc.
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The second month typically we start to get them out and about.
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So they start shadowing um various team members, they start getting more involved in seeing what sort of customer issues we're managing and how we approach customer meetings, etc.
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Um, and then yeah, sort of uh the the third month tends to start looking at the full onboarding, so picking up their customers, starting to do handovers, but even those customer handovers we take our time with uh will run two monthly meetings.
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The first monthly meeting they will shadow, the second monthly meeting they'll kind of run, but still with the incumbent CSM on that meeting as well.
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So, you know, we support that transition.
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And I think for me, this is absolutely key because uh, you know, we put a lot of time and effort into making sure people are comfortable, they understand Okta and can bring Their best self forward through the culture that's been built, you know, by Andy, yourself, Vicky, and Amplified.
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We find that it's not just the buddy, the manager that onboards that person, the whole team does.
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Everyone reaches out to that new hire.
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They set up one-to-ones, they they bring them along to meetings and they engage with them.
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We have a very collaborative environment through Slack, through Zoom, team meetings, through our offices.
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We then engage with Amplified for that new hire.
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We run them through the disk assessment.
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We run the comparison reports for them and their manager to understand how best to function and work together.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:51.119
We then run them through the five dysfunctions workshop to help onboard them further into our culture and show them why we do the things we do and why we work the way we do.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:23:08.799
Beacon Force is now key to that, getting them on board with answering these questions so that we can understand where they are on their journey and we can pick up early warning signs if they seem to be getting bored or if they seem to be overly stressed with the process.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:15.519
So, you know, it's it's really key that people are on boarded as quickly as possible, but at their own pace.
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:25.599
As I said, we put a lot of time and effort into this because the quicker we can get them comfortable and onboarded, the quicker they start bringing their best self.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.039
That we've hired these people for their skills and experience.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:36.079
We want what they are bringing to us to help us develop and grow because you know people are our differentiator.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.599
So there's a couple of things I want to pick up on there.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:52.240
Firstly, I remember some of the early work that we did together as you were growing, and how the rigorous interview process that you had was looking at the skills and experience.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:24:02.160
And one of the things that you guys realized very quickly was actually the number one thing that you were looking for is these people need to be team players of the attitude there.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.720
And I think that has really stood you well.
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:18.319
And so the buddying program that you have and the way that you were just talking about how everyone collaborates, I get to see that firsthand because when we do that first five behaviours workshop with the team, and I say, right, we're going to match you two up.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:19.359
Have you ever spoken before?
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:21.119
Oh, yeah, we've spoken loads of times.
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.319
They might be in different countries, but they already know each other.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.359
So that's really apparent to me and very valuable.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:37.359
But I also want to just highlight here, and I think it's important, I was out to dinner with you guys last November, I think, for a pre-Christmas celebration.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.759
And I think it was you, Jamie, that said, Oh, you feel like you're one of the family now.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.440
And I was like, Oh, that was a massive warning bell to me.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:52.079
Because I'm like, if I'm feeling like I'm one of the family, and it was through these workshops of the onboarding, because we'd had to do so many of them.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.000
I'm thinking, this isn't right.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:59.200
Because our job is to make you guys self-sustainable so that you don't need us anymore.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.000
That's that's that's what we're aiming for, and that's why we've introduced Beacon Force.
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:11.599
But also, you know, I mentioned at the start of this doing the train the trainer with Tony yesterday, and we've been doing it with yourself as well, Jamie.
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:22.640
So that actually those new that new hire training that we're doing doesn't come from me anymore, it comes from you guys because the five dysfunctions and the five behaviors you live and breathe this so well now.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:32.079
It comes so naturally to you, as I've observed in watching your team meetings and in talking to other team members, that you can do this now.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.279
You don't need us to do it.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:39.200
And I think that that is a huge component of the success that you're having within the team now.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:40.720
That's a really good point, Nikki.
00:25:40.880 --> 00:26:06.799
Actually, it was like trying to cut the umbilical cord is like we knew that to empower our teams, we needed to really take ownership of what you've taught us in the last three years, and I think with Jamie and Tony in particular taking on that ownership, um, Beacon Force, making sure it's top of mind, is really starting to embed this into uh our operational cadence as a team.
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:07.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:14.240
Do you have specific values that you recruit against to try and imbue into your team?
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:16.480
We do.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.559
So yeah, it's it's funny you you ask.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:38.960
We we've just been through our recent um review process, and as part of that, we review employees against our company core values, which are love our customers, never stop innovating, act with integrity, be transparent, and empower our people.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:44.960
And these the these five core values are like they were written for the customer success manager.
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:49.920
The only other sort of what I'd add to that myself is is around trust.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:27:04.559
Um, you know, we'll go back to building this foundation and you know, Patrick Lencioni, it's it's been absolutely critical for us to build a very you know strong foundation of trust through the teams.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.039
I feel like I need to do a drum roll.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.319
Because I've got a big announcement to make here.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:21.440
On this podcast, we are announcing our first amplified team experience ambassador, is Jamie McDonnell.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.400
And I could not be more proud.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:29.279
So this is recognition for Jamie as a leader.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:42.559
And if I just talk a little bit about what a team experience or team X, as we've trademarked it, um, ambassador is, is they embody the best of what it means to lead a team.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.880
They're humble, kind, nurturing, and continually learning.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:28:05.119
And not only that, for those of you that have listened to these podcasts before and have heard me talk about the gardener leader, and a gardener leader being one that enables team members to flourish and grow, that is exactly what Jamie does.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:15.920
And I've seen this in practice, I've witnessed how he leads his meetings, I talk to many of his direct reports, and I know that Jamie does this.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:26.880
And we have some very specific criteria that we'll share as notes on the end of this podcast to enable this to happen because it is absolutely it needs to be measured.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:28.960
We don't give these out willy-nilly.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:37.039
So it's absolutely wonderful to be able to recognize you, Jamie, as our first team experience ambassador.
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:39.119
Congratulations, Jamie.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.720
No, thank you ever so much.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.359
I uh I'm honoured, I really am.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:29:06.079
There are so many individual contributors that look at how do they move into a manager leader role, and um the way that you have embraced this and how you are continuously looking to self-improve, you just set such a wonderful example, and that's what that that's why you have this award.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.559
I want to add one more thing to this, Vicky, as well, which will make Jamie cringe even more.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:17.440
So uh Patrick Lencioni tells us that uh conflict and healthy conflict is really important in the team.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:23.200
Yeah, Jamie, the way that Jamie operates, uh, and he certainly makes me more accountable.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:31.759
Um, he's very methodical, he's systematic, he thinks on things, and you can see him processing it before he gives an answer.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:37.200
I am a little bit more shoot from the hips um and worry about the consequences later.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:45.680
So Jamie's like so complimentary to balance the management team out to make sure we're a little bit more thoughtful.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:30:00.880
Uh so thank you, Jamie, for actually something that you've just talked about there, Andy, that's just triggered with me is one of the things that Jamie is exceptionally good at that a lot of leaders are not and find it difficult is holding people accountable.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:13.920
So having the clarity of what their expectations are and then holding he holds you accountable, he holds me accountable, and he holds his team accountable, and he doesn't shy away from those difficult conversations.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:22.079
And I think the way that you do that, Jamie, really sets you apart from many other leaders that I get to work with.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.200
So are you seeing positive effects, Jamie, from building such a strong team?
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:28.559
One would assume so.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:31.839
Yes, we are, absolutely.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:38.160
The number one has to be our extraordinarily high retention rate.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:47.200
So here at Okta in customer success, we've lost one CSM in the past seven years.
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.960
You know, and we're a team of over 30 now.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.839
So in all that time, we have only ever lost one CSM, which I think is absolutely phenomenal.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:05.279
It's certainly unheard of by myself in my career, but it's certainly not by accident either.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:12.400
This is something we've worked very hard to build, and it's it's really paying off.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:20.720
So I think the third point for me is that we have you know one of the highest internal employee engagement survey results across our organization.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:39.279
Uh, we have you know really positive feedback from the whole team uh across Amir about how uh we're doing and you know how much they enjoy working with us, for us, um, and how much they you know expect to be here for quite some time.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:45.599
So obviously, since jumping into a management role, um you've amassed some serious experience.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:53.759
Um, if you were to go through all that again, what would you tell your your younger self, your pre-managerial responsibility self?
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.880
So I think anything I told myself, I you know, I wouldn't listen to anyway.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:31:59.920
I have to learn that.
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:06.079
Yeah, but um I think the one thing I've learned is patience.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:07.680
Uh it takes time.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:22.559
Um, you know, you you need to take the the long-term approach, uh, build a strong foundation, and then once you start with that strong foundation and continue to grow and develop from there, things will come.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:31.039
It takes time to build anything, you know, be it a a career yourself, a team or an organization.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:37.359
And I think in the past I've just not been uh patient enough with myself or where I am.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:38.480
That makes sense.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:44.559
I think Vicky said on the last podcast that we recorded that in her early days she was something of a bull in a china shop.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.200
I think that probably chimes with most of us, doesn't it?
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:53.279
When we're so keen to get on with life and our careers and you know, take the opportunities ahead of us.
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:56.640
Um having that patience is is important.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:03.839
You know, and I think it's important to say, you know, on the last podcast, we talked with Tim about DISC.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:09.279
So on disc, Jamie's starting point is a D.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:16.880
And you know, Tim talked about Ds being, you know, drivers and being impatient.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:24.480
And and very often you go into a meeting and the D's are very, very, very easy to identify.
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:41.440
I haven't hadn't got a clue where Jamie was on disc when I met him because he's so well balanced, and you're very considered in your approach, Jamie.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:46.160
Um but you have that driving force, you have that steely determination.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:52.240
So you've certainly learned that patience and and demonstrate that incredibly well.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.240
It's been uh a hard, a hard lesson to learn.
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:58.480
I'm still learning.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.400
Are we all?
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:13.840
So as we bring our podcast towards its inevitable conclusion, um perhaps you'd be so kind, Jamie, to um give us some some key takeaways, ideally three for our listeners.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:14.800
Absolutely.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:27.039
If it if it was me, the the three takeaways I would say, you know, make the effort to hire rights in the first place, to build that foundation, put time and effort in resource to ensure that it's right for both sides.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:34.800
I would then say definitely take the time again and uh and put the resource into onboarding your people.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:41.679
Just because someone's come from a senior leadership position doesn't mean that they can hit the ground running in the first week.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:50.480
They need to help adapting and you know, evolving into your company, otherwise you might find that they're running running in the wrong direction.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:35:12.639
So just before you go on to the third one, I think that's a really, really, really important point because when we um when we did the podcast with Mark Templeton, um, he said one of the big changes that happened with Citrix as they went through growth was they hired too quickly, they hired the wrong people.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:27.599
And and I think your point there, if you're not giving them the guiding principles and they go off in a different direction, that's where you get all that internal conflict and the silos forming because you've just got people building their own little empires.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:34.800
And I think you know, you've got multiple teams now within customer success, but it's still one team.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.000
You're still building out that that team of teams.
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.320
Sorry, I'll let you get back to your third point.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:41.760
No, no, not at all.
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:43.280
I agree with everything you said.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:51.679
It's uh I think the third piece here is find a methodology to help you grow and develop that works for you.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:58.239
You know, we we use the five dysfunctions, Patrick Leot and Sioni's teachings, and it works really well for us.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:06.000
But unless you have an idea or a framework that you're working to, again, you know, you don't know what direction people are going in.
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:07.199
And I think that really helps.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.159
You know, what you just talked about there is having a framework.
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:22.960
What we also see in the tech industry is it's the next shiny thing and the next shiny thing and the next, and so L and D are going, oh, here's a new thing, let's go and roll that out.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.960
Here's a new thing, let's go and roll that out.
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:34.639
And we did a podcast at the very beginning of when we did podcasts, and it was with Verena Sunday, and her podcast was about pick a lane and stick to it.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:41.039
So pick your framework, stick to it, and then if you are going to add bits, add them in, but add them into the framework.
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:47.440
Don't just do something else on the side and something because it has to be super simple.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:57.039
And and one of the things that I think has has made this team so successful is that every time you bring new hires on, they get introduced to the same framework.
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:04.719
So you've got this consistency across the team, and that really is giving you those solid foundations to grow as you are.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:12.320
Yeah, I think the other thing we've learned, Vicki, over time is uh in the tech industry, there's a lot of complexity.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:18.239
And what you've really done at Amplified is allowed us to really focus with this theme of simplification.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:20.719
And it sounds easy, but it's really hard to achieve.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:29.599
But I think we've found that if we can focus and execute on those really important points, um, we actually get a lot more benefit.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.760
So simplifying what we're doing is always top of mind for us.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:40.639
I I love that you're saying that because the way, you know, simplicity is the last point, isn't it, on our speed check.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.960
So we have purpose, trust, clarity, and simplicity.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:52.320
And, you know, being clear on your purpose, you guys have always had a clear purpose, but you've refined that even more.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.440
The trust in the team, we know by measuring that how strong it is.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:06.320
And in fact, you came in on our speed check at 83, which just so happens to be what we say is industry best practice, and we we got that number before you did your speed check.
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.199
So that was just magic that that came in.
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:14.559
But I think now with the work that we've done with you about simplicity, because I described the simplicity bit.
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.320
Sprint simplicity for me is like the sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:22.559
It's like the last bit to really tweak it and the focus that you guys have put in there.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:29.199
I'm actually really looking forward to doing another speed check with you because you are executing at speed, because you have been able to simplify things.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:36.719
I know we've still got a little bit of work to do there, but my goodness, what a journey we've been on over the last two and a half years.
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:37.920
Amazing stuff.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:41.280
So, our last question of you, Jamie, before you we let you go.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.039
Do you have a book recommendation for our listeners, please?
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.559
That's a really tough one, but uh really easy as well, I think.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:52.400
It has to be The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lincioni.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:53.039
It's the foundation.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:54.559
I've heard him, I've heard of him.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:57.440
I thought great stuff.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:06.719
The fact that that's that is your book recommendations and you're always looking for new books goes back to keeping it simple and going, right, of everything.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.000
This this is the one.
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:09.280
Definitely, definitely.
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:10.320
Great stuff.
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.079
Thank you, Jamie, and also thanks, Andy, too for joining us again.
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:18.800
I really appreciate your input, and I'm sure our listeners found that absolutely invaluable.
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:20.559
Um, so we really appreciate it.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.559
It just remains for me to say thanks for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group.
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:28.559
Your comments and subscriptions are as always gratefully received.
00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:17.600
Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders who want to help their companies execute faster.
00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:19.039
As always, we're virtual.
00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.719
I'm at home in Bucks where the sun has just come out after a grey morning.
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:24.879
And Vicky, where are you today?
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:29.039
I am still in deepest dark at Oxfordshire, or am I?
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:30.640
Or are you?
00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:37.840
Sorry, that is an in-joke between Sam and I because I'm never in Deepest Dark at Oxfordshire.
00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:43.920
I'm always in Deepest Dark Buckinghamshire, the same as Sam, but for some reason I seem to have been located in Oxfordshire for the last few years.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:47.759
It's just kind of more or less Oxford by the time you get up to where you are.
00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:50.000
So we're on the border.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:51.119
We're on the border.
00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:55.039
So having clarified that for our listeners, we got on today.
00:00:55.439 --> 00:01:05.439
Well, Sam, as you have done so many podcasts with us, you will know that I'm always very enthusiastic about the guests on our podcast.
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:21.519
But today is a really special one for us because today we have, I'm not going to say just a client with us, but a super, super special client from my perspective because we've got Okta on the podcast today.
00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:29.040
And I have been working with Okta since November 2019.
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:35.439
And in reflecting and preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about it.
00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:49.200
And yesterday I was doing a train the trainer session with Tony Roberts, who is another super talented member of Okta customer success team.
00:01:49.519 --> 00:02:16.639
And it took me back to a conversation that I had with Tony back in the kitchen at Okta in November 2019, where he told me how concerned he was about how great the culture was within Okta and customer success, about how fast the company was growing and how worried he was that they were going to lose this great culture as they grew.
00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:24.800
And in doing the train the trainer session with him yesterday, I went back to the very first training deck that we used.
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:34.159
And the title of that deck that we always go back to is Building Solid Foundations for Growth, which is what these guys have done.
00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:44.719
And we're going to share this today, but we're going to share it in a slightly different way because I think for this to really resonate, we need to make it more personal.
00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:51.199
And so what we have today is Andy Bryars is back with us, who recorded a podcast with us last year.
00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.759
So he's going to give us the context to start with.
00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:10.080
But we've also asked Jamie McDonald to join us because Jamie has been on such a journey with Okta over the last few years, particularly moving from an individual contributor role to a leader role.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.120
And I think he's got such a valuable story to tell.
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.520
Well, ladies and gentlemen, that's all we've got time for on the podcast today.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.120
So thanks for listening.
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.120
That is my longest interception ever.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:27.680
I'm so cruel to you.
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:31.759
You are I could take it though.
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:36.479
So let's introduce our valued guests today.
00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:38.080
So Andy, maybe you can go first.
00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:43.039
Just tell us a little bit about yourself, refresh people's memories from your earlier appearance, please.
00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.759
Yeah, so uh thanks for inviting us, and uh really nice to be here again.
00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:54.879
Um so just a reminder, I'm lucky enough to uh be running the AMIA Customer Success Team here at Okta.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:01.199
Um, and I'm really delighted that we're gonna get to shine a light on Jamie's story.
00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:08.639
I've been involved in working with Jamie for coming up to seven years now, and between us we've built this team from the ground up.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:18.560
Um there's there's around 35 of us, and I'll get Jamie to go into the detail, but we're going through a lot of change, organizational change as we go through growth.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:20.800
Uh and I'll touch on that a little bit later.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:27.920
But um, most importantly, since we met Sam, we I think we recorded in in the middle of lockdown in COVID.
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:44.160
And uh the most insightful thing for me in the last uh year is that we met the team for the first time all together, which uh you know never happened before because um half the people joined in in the pandemic, and we're meeting customers again.
00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:54.480
So uh it's great to be coming back out out of the pandemic, regardless of all the problems we've got around the world, um, and to actually be seeing customers because that's what we we enjoy doing.
00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:59.439
Andy, could you give us a little bit of information on how the team has grown?
00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:05.360
And also um, it would be great if you can share how you're using Beacon Force.
00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:07.360
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.439
So just a level set for everybody who's listening to this.
00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:19.040
Ox is going through a rapid hypergrowth of over 50% year-on-year growth.
00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:29.600
Um, we've got a change in leadership, um, and there's a new level of discipline um and rigour to how we're going around things.
00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:35.040
Um, we're actually targeting to grow from 1 billion to 4 billion in the next three years.
00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:39.360
So that's that's the sort of rate of growth we're expecting.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:48.000
And in order to achieve that, we are looking at our operating model and how we transform that for this next phase of growth.
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:54.560
Um, so we're really focused as a team on how we navigate through a huge amount of change.
00:05:55.120 --> 00:06:07.920
And last year, just a reminder for the listeners that we acquired uh AutoZero, which is a customer identity platform, one of the uh leading vendors in that space for 6.5 billion.
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:15.360
So, in the middle of all our all our growth, we're also attaching uh another significant business into that.
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:21.439
So, what we're finding is our current models won't scale for what we need in the future.
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:35.120
So, what what we've done uh since we last spoke is we've built out, or we're building out a center of excellence, which Tony Roberts is actually leading, so that we can become more repeatable and we can drive best practice.
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:43.120
We're building out our own technical strategists, which are effectively architects, because our products are getting wider and deeper.
00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.680
So we need more technical expertise to help with conversations with customers.
00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:59.680
We've introduced a third-party outsourced organization to help us in some of the um smaller customers that we are still responsible for.
00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:05.680
And we're working really closely with our counterparts in the US that are building out digital services.
00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:16.480
So for me, that's really exciting as a leader that we get to play in both digital, uh outsourced and our own customer success motion in one entity.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:27.120
Um all that said, and all this change, we're looking at how we our delivery model, operational model, and how we operate that from next financial year.
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.759
Now, where does Beacon Force fit into that?
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:40.639
So for us, managing through all this change is really important that as a team we are fixed on a single purpose and that our values are top of mind.
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:45.519
And and Beacon Force allows us to do that, it keeps it top of mind every day.
00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:55.839
Uh for those of you not aware, you ask a you get asked a few questions, uh, it takes a minute, two minutes, uh, and it maps how you're executing.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:02.560
So if you're highly stressed, we could see that if you're bored, uh, but ideally we want to be what they call the flow.
00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:05.759
Um, so uh I hope that answers your question there, Vicky.
00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.360
But uh Beacon Force is now embedded in uh day-to-day operations.
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:10.160
Great sense.
00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:16.480
Maybe Jamie, you would be so kind as to give something of a potted career history, how you got to where you are today, please.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:18.160
Of course.
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.319
I work as the regional manager uh for customer success.
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.639
I manage the UKI and the South Amir regions for Okta.
00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:45.039
So I guess I think what's important actually is uh way back before I just started my career when I was at university, because I actually did product design, which was an interesting start into my tech career, because it what it was really about was uh it was user-centric design and problem solving.
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:53.279
Um they sort of taught me how to break things down to um, you know, sort of a bits and bytes level, and then rebuild it centered around the user.
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:00.799
And I think what I learned there, I've taken through my career, certainly in uh customer services, uh, it's really stayed with me.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:15.440
Um and some of the the roles I've had where we have been helped to sort of build and develop the service or the frameworks and engagement with customers, it's really set me up for being able to help develop that sort of thing.
00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:24.320
Having done product design, I jumped straight into becoming a systems administrator, rolling out NT351 and Windows 95 on the desktop.
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:25.919
Uh, that was great fun.
00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.840
Um long time ago now.
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:34.240
But having done that and then moved into third line support, I took a bit of a career change.
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:41.200
And rather than really focus on the on the technical side, I moved into uh technical account management at Microsoft.
00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:45.440
And that was uh an absolute fantastic role and a fantastic time to be there.
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.559
They were scaling quite rapidly uh back then.
00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:55.519
So we actually moved from something like 70 technical account managers to 120 in about two years while I was there.
00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:02.960
And uh there was a great environment where one of the key taglines was don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.
00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:12.480
And again, having that kind of environment to grow and develop in back in my early career really helped shape and develop my sort of later years as well.
00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:18.399
So from being a technical account manager there, I bounced around in service delivery roles.
00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:29.440
I actually took a couple of uh team leader roles, uh, one with a company called Lenovo, just as um, it was actually the Think brand, which uh Lenovo bought from IBM.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.000
I uh got hired for a team leader role.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.519
And when I arrived on the day, they told me there was no team leader role.
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.080
There was only a technical account manager role there for me.
00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.600
So my management career didn't uh start till a little later on.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:58.080
But sort of moving forward, I went back to Microsoft for a number of years and then I moved to Citrix, which uh Vicki, I know you know very well, but I was hired as one of the first three uh customer success managers globally for their new customer first organization.
00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:07.919
So we were tasked with building what a customer success manager was, what they did, what was an operating model, what was the engagement framework with customers, et cetera.
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.919
So that was a really interesting time and function to help develop that.
00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:27.600
From there, I moved to Oracle, but they were looking for customer success managers that could span multiple product pillars to support their largest customers, you know, the largest banks and uh enterprise organizations.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:46.240
So again, I helped them develop sort of a different engagement framework based around customer success supporting their customers, which stood me in great stead for when I moved to Okta, which was now just nearly seven years ago, as the first Okta CSM hired in AMIA.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:47.600
Great, thanks for that, Jamie.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.240
Good canter through your career today.
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:57.120
Maybe you should give us a bit more detail on your role today as at Okta and your journey into management, if you don't mind.
00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:58.000
Of course.
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.240
Yeah, started at Okta as a senior CSM.
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:11.679
Being the first customer success manager on the ground here in AMEA, we didn't have a very comprehensive engagement, customer engagement framework.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:19.600
So uh there was a lot of um work to do in helping build out the the customer success function, how we work with customers.
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.360
Back then there was uh we were growing again, still at 50% year on year.
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.480
So uh there was a lot of opportunity ahead of us.
00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:34.960
We'd spoken, I'd spoken to my uh the manager who who hired me about possible leadership roles.
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:45.120
But when you know when you're growing at 50% of one person, it it still takes time to build out the function and get to a size where you need that kind of management structure.
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:50.720
So we sort of worked very hard supporting the largest customers in Amir.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:13:01.440
Um, but as we were getting to a size where we needed that management structure, I actually went through a couple of impactful life events which really sort of derailed me.
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:08.399
So I lost my father and my wife uh soon after and was diagnosed with cancer.
00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:31.360
So um it really, I really wasn't in a good position to move to a manager role, which you know, everything uh being considered, I think, was uh the best thing for Okta anyway, because at that point Andy moved into the manager role and has been absolutely fantastic developing and growing the organization.
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.519
And I'm so glad it worked that way.
00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:35.600
These things do work out at times.
00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.840
But you know, Andy and Okta supported me through that time.
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:52.399
I continued my career and developing in role as an IC, but then the opportunity came a little later on, back in sort of 2021, to move into a player manager role.
00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:55.039
I had my first three people to to manage.
00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:58.799
The player track player manager transition is always interesting, isn't it?
00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:06.879
Um, you know, I remember doing that, and it you know, instantly your your friends are slightly wary of you because you're you're sort of the boss now.
00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:11.360
It's uh it's a funny old, funny old transition, isn't it?
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:17.120
It is, it is, and I I I think it's probably the hardest transition to do into that kind of role.
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:17.840
It really is.
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:24.480
But also not just because you know, management is a different framework, is a completely different role to an IC.
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:31.120
And trying to do two different roles at the same time is is really not easy.
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:45.200
Um and it's something that we we we try and avoid now looking at our teams as much as possible, just because the stress that it can put on someone, and you know, trying to have one head for their customer role and then one head for their their management role.
00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:45.919
We went.
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:51.519
And yeah, the the first, you know, me and Tony working through it, it was kind of challenging.
00:14:51.600 --> 00:15:03.360
Um, it got a little easier uh later on, and now we've got a um you know a really good grasp of what we need to do, what's best to do, and how to help people transition, as we have recently with Sandy as well.
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:11.360
For me, what Jamie did through that transition, he shared leadership qualities before we promoted him into a former manager.
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:22.879
And what I find really interesting now is Jamie's applying that same methodology to individual contributors in his team that want to step up and become a manager or do a different role.
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:28.559
And we're showing that you can be you can show leadership qualities without the formal title.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:34.480
And so we've got stretch goals for everybody in the team, and it's I think it's paying dividends for everybody.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:36.080
That's a really good point.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.080
I think that makes sense.
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:54.080
I think um I don't whether it's probably not relevant to Okta, I suspect, but I do think businesses have to be careful about making people do roles with management responsibility without formally promoting them or uh or paying them appropriately.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:16:03.440
A friend of mine's been through a difficult situation where she's been effectively promoted without being given the job title and without being given any pay rise.
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:04.559
So she's left.
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:09.840
You know, she'd be happy to take on the additional responsibility, but they're they're not treating her right.
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.080
I suspect that's rather different, a doctor.
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:27.919
The the other, the other counter of that as well, Sam, is kind of what Andy was alluding to there is you can be a leader without having direct reports and leading different areas of the business and showing leadership.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:35.440
And I think that's what the customer success team, you know, as Andy said, they're all they've all taken on some kind of responsibility.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:51.679
So they're all being challenged, which is when you go back and look at Beacon Force and seeing if the team are feeling challenged and seeing if they're growing, we can see that and see where people have got gaps and actually feel like that they need more challenge and they feel because we all need to feel like we're continuously learning.
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.480
Of course, yeah, and I think uh that that that is a really good point, Sam.
00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:05.839
And so, you know, we've got an opportunity at the moment how we are adapting to manage and support the South Amir region as they grow and develop.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:12.400
So we don't have enough accounts or uh revenue there to put a formal structure in.
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:21.680
But one of our team has showed great leadership potential, has got some fantastic skills and experience, and especially um experience in the region.
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:29.599
Move them now into a team leader role to start evolving and adapting and just to get their arms around the region.
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:40.720
Um, he will be looking to then move into a manager role when we have enough um CSMs, when we have enough revenue there, and then moving into the regional manager role and growing and developing with that region.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:50.000
So, you know, we haven't thrown them into having all the responsibility and all the job yet with no sort of promotion.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:59.119
They're going to be slowly growing and expanding as the region expands, and they will get those promotions as they um as they build that team.
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:01.599
So that's like a phased approach, isn't it?
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:15.359
And it and again, going back to we all want to feel challenged and that we're learning, it's it's continuous growth, but you're giving them a path to to go on, and I think that is clear from the work that you've been doing with the rest of the team as well.
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.400
And and what you've experienced yourself.
00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:20.559
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:24.160
It's um a fantastic environment to be able to do this.
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:36.799
I think that's what my friend didn't have was a defined path and support from managers to show her the way into the position that she was effectively doing.
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.680
So let's talk about obviously you've expanded rapidly.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.720
I presume you've got a process, a journey for your new starter.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.599
Perhaps you could talk about that a little bit, please.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:47.279
Yeah, of course.
00:18:47.359 --> 00:19:01.680
Um, so I was I was I was thinking about this earlier, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized how much we do for new starters and how comprehensive our onboarding system strategy and process is.
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:03.119
Um it's quite phenomenal.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.440
I've I've not known this from any other company.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:18.480
And I think you know, a lot of this has been uh helped, has developed over time through, you know, Andy, Tony, myself, but also with the work we've done with with Vicky and Amplified.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:24.480
Um so I really think that the the process starts in the interview process.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:36.640
So when we go through, when we start interviewing someone, they've got the opportunity to meet between six and eight members of our team between the managers and CSMs.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:48.240
So we have a very comprehensive uh process which um takes them through meeting the CSMs individually, meeting the team managers, and then uh a group presentation.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:57.359
But that gives both parties the opportunity to get a really good idea of what the people, the culture, and the the company is like.
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.960
So, you know, for me that's when the onboarding starts.
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:09.200
It's about making sure that someone is making the right decision to move to your company when they actually get on board with us.
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:13.200
It then, I mean, the we we start sort of with the official team.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:22.160
So we have an official buddy um who runs a weekly meeting and uh talks to that person about all kinds of things, everything.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:30.160
Um the the manager, the team manager will have to start with daily catch-ups with that uh new person.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.079
They'll obviously move probably out to weekly, etc., as they get onboarded.
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:41.759
The first three days are official Okta onboarding, so they get completely immersed in what it is to be Okta and what it is to work here.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:52.240
From day four onwards, we we we um move them into our 30, 60, 90-day CSM onboarding induction program.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:21:03.039
So the first month typically they are focused on on online training, training courses, gaining the knowledge and experience of our platform products, etc.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.960
The second month typically we start to get them out and about.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:18.079
So they start shadowing um various team members, they start getting more involved in seeing what sort of customer issues we're managing and how we approach customer meetings, etc.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:35.839
Um, and then yeah, sort of uh the the third month tends to start looking at the full onboarding, so picking up their customers, starting to do handovers, but even those customer handovers we take our time with uh will run two monthly meetings.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:44.799
The first monthly meeting they will shadow, the second monthly meeting they'll kind of run, but still with the incumbent CSM on that meeting as well.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:47.039
So, you know, we support that transition.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:22:07.200
And I think for me, this is absolutely key because uh, you know, we put a lot of time and effort into making sure people are comfortable, they understand Okta and can bring Their best self forward through the culture that's been built, you know, by Andy, yourself, Vicky, and Amplified.
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:13.039
We find that it's not just the buddy, the manager that onboards that person, the whole team does.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:16.319
Everyone reaches out to that new hire.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:21.759
They set up one-to-ones, they they bring them along to meetings and they engage with them.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:28.640
We have a very collaborative environment through Slack, through Zoom, team meetings, through our offices.
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:32.160
We then engage with Amplified for that new hire.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.240
We run them through the disk assessment.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:40.960
We run the comparison reports for them and their manager to understand how best to function and work together.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:51.119
We then run them through the five dysfunctions workshop to help onboard them further into our culture and show them why we do the things we do and why we work the way we do.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:23:08.799
Beacon Force is now key to that, getting them on board with answering these questions so that we can understand where they are on their journey and we can pick up early warning signs if they seem to be getting bored or if they seem to be overly stressed with the process.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:15.519
So, you know, it's it's really key that people are on boarded as quickly as possible, but at their own pace.
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:25.599
As I said, we put a lot of time and effort into this because the quicker we can get them comfortable and onboarded, the quicker they start bringing their best self.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.039
That we've hired these people for their skills and experience.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:36.079
We want what they are bringing to us to help us develop and grow because you know people are our differentiator.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.599
So there's a couple of things I want to pick up on there.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:52.240
Firstly, I remember some of the early work that we did together as you were growing, and how the rigorous interview process that you had was looking at the skills and experience.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:24:02.160
And one of the things that you guys realized very quickly was actually the number one thing that you were looking for is these people need to be team players of the attitude there.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.720
And I think that has really stood you well.
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:18.319
And so the buddying program that you have and the way that you were just talking about how everyone collaborates, I get to see that firsthand because when we do that first five behaviours workshop with the team, and I say, right, we're going to match you two up.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:19.359
Have you ever spoken before?
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:21.119
Oh, yeah, we've spoken loads of times.
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.319
They might be in different countries, but they already know each other.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.359
So that's really apparent to me and very valuable.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:37.359
But I also want to just highlight here, and I think it's important, I was out to dinner with you guys last November, I think, for a pre-Christmas celebration.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.759
And I think it was you, Jamie, that said, Oh, you feel like you're one of the family now.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.440
And I was like, Oh, that was a massive warning bell to me.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:52.079
Because I'm like, if I'm feeling like I'm one of the family, and it was through these workshops of the onboarding, because we'd had to do so many of them.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.000
I'm thinking, this isn't right.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:59.200
Because our job is to make you guys self-sustainable so that you don't need us anymore.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.000
That's that's that's what we're aiming for, and that's why we've introduced Beacon Force.
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:11.599
But also, you know, I mentioned at the start of this doing the train the trainer with Tony yesterday, and we've been doing it with yourself as well, Jamie.
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:22.640
So that actually those new that new hire training that we're doing doesn't come from me anymore, it comes from you guys because the five dysfunctions and the five behaviors you live and breathe this so well now.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:32.079
It comes so naturally to you, as I've observed in watching your team meetings and in talking to other team members, that you can do this now.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.279
You don't need us to do it.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:39.200
And I think that that is a huge component of the success that you're having within the team now.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:40.720
That's a really good point, Nikki.
00:25:40.880 --> 00:26:06.799
Actually, it was like trying to cut the umbilical cord is like we knew that to empower our teams, we needed to really take ownership of what you've taught us in the last three years, and I think with Jamie and Tony in particular taking on that ownership, um, Beacon Force, making sure it's top of mind, is really starting to embed this into uh our operational cadence as a team.
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:07.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:14.240
Do you have specific values that you recruit against to try and imbue into your team?
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:16.480
We do.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.559
So yeah, it's it's funny you you ask.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:38.960
We we've just been through our recent um review process, and as part of that, we review employees against our company core values, which are love our customers, never stop innovating, act with integrity, be transparent, and empower our people.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:44.960
And these the these five core values are like they were written for the customer success manager.
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:49.920
The only other sort of what I'd add to that myself is is around trust.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:27:04.559
Um, you know, we'll go back to building this foundation and you know, Patrick Lencioni, it's it's been absolutely critical for us to build a very you know strong foundation of trust through the teams.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.039
I feel like I need to do a drum roll.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.319
Because I've got a big announcement to make here.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:21.440
On this podcast, we are announcing our first amplified team experience ambassador, is Jamie McDonnell.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.400
And I could not be more proud.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:29.279
So this is recognition for Jamie as a leader.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:42.559
And if I just talk a little bit about what a team experience or team X, as we've trademarked it, um, ambassador is, is they embody the best of what it means to lead a team.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.880
They're humble, kind, nurturing, and continually learning.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:28:05.119
And not only that, for those of you that have listened to these podcasts before and have heard me talk about the gardener leader, and a gardener leader being one that enables team members to flourish and grow, that is exactly what Jamie does.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:15.920
And I've seen this in practice, I've witnessed how he leads his meetings, I talk to many of his direct reports, and I know that Jamie does this.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:26.880
And we have some very specific criteria that we'll share as notes on the end of this podcast to enable this to happen because it is absolutely it needs to be measured.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:28.960
We don't give these out willy-nilly.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:37.039
So it's absolutely wonderful to be able to recognize you, Jamie, as our first team experience ambassador.
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:39.119
Congratulations, Jamie.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.720
No, thank you ever so much.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.359
I uh I'm honoured, I really am.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:29:06.079
There are so many individual contributors that look at how do they move into a manager leader role, and um the way that you have embraced this and how you are continuously looking to self-improve, you just set such a wonderful example, and that's what that that's why you have this award.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.559
I want to add one more thing to this, Vicky, as well, which will make Jamie cringe even more.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:17.440
So uh Patrick Lencioni tells us that uh conflict and healthy conflict is really important in the team.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:23.200
Yeah, Jamie, the way that Jamie operates, uh, and he certainly makes me more accountable.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:31.759
Um, he's very methodical, he's systematic, he thinks on things, and you can see him processing it before he gives an answer.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:37.200
I am a little bit more shoot from the hips um and worry about the consequences later.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:45.680
So Jamie's like so complimentary to balance the management team out to make sure we're a little bit more thoughtful.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:30:00.880
Uh so thank you, Jamie, for actually something that you've just talked about there, Andy, that's just triggered with me is one of the things that Jamie is exceptionally good at that a lot of leaders are not and find it difficult is holding people accountable.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:13.920
So having the clarity of what their expectations are and then holding he holds you accountable, he holds me accountable, and he holds his team accountable, and he doesn't shy away from those difficult conversations.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:22.079
And I think the way that you do that, Jamie, really sets you apart from many other leaders that I get to work with.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.200
So are you seeing positive effects, Jamie, from building such a strong team?
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:28.559
One would assume so.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:31.839
Yes, we are, absolutely.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:38.160
The number one has to be our extraordinarily high retention rate.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:47.200
So here at Okta in customer success, we've lost one CSM in the past seven years.
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.960
You know, and we're a team of over 30 now.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.839
So in all that time, we have only ever lost one CSM, which I think is absolutely phenomenal.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:05.279
It's certainly unheard of by myself in my career, but it's certainly not by accident either.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:12.400
This is something we've worked very hard to build, and it's it's really paying off.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:20.720
So I think the third point for me is that we have you know one of the highest internal employee engagement survey results across our organization.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:39.279
Uh, we have you know really positive feedback from the whole team uh across Amir about how uh we're doing and you know how much they enjoy working with us, for us, um, and how much they you know expect to be here for quite some time.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:45.599
So obviously, since jumping into a management role, um you've amassed some serious experience.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:53.759
Um, if you were to go through all that again, what would you tell your your younger self, your pre-managerial responsibility self?
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.880
So I think anything I told myself, I you know, I wouldn't listen to anyway.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:31:59.920
I have to learn that.
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:06.079
Yeah, but um I think the one thing I've learned is patience.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:07.680
Uh it takes time.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:22.559
Um, you know, you you need to take the the long-term approach, uh, build a strong foundation, and then once you start with that strong foundation and continue to grow and develop from there, things will come.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:31.039
It takes time to build anything, you know, be it a a career yourself, a team or an organization.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:37.359
And I think in the past I've just not been uh patient enough with myself or where I am.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:38.480
That makes sense.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:44.559
I think Vicky said on the last podcast that we recorded that in her early days she was something of a bull in a china shop.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.200
I think that probably chimes with most of us, doesn't it?
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:53.279
When we're so keen to get on with life and our careers and you know, take the opportunities ahead of us.
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:56.640
Um having that patience is is important.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:03.839
You know, and I think it's important to say, you know, on the last podcast, we talked with Tim about DISC.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:09.279
So on disc, Jamie's starting point is a D.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:16.880
And you know, Tim talked about Ds being, you know, drivers and being impatient.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:24.480
And and very often you go into a meeting and the D's are very, very, very easy to identify.
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:41.440
I haven't hadn't got a clue where Jamie was on disc when I met him because he's so well balanced, and you're very considered in your approach, Jamie.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:46.160
Um but you have that driving force, you have that steely determination.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:52.240
So you've certainly learned that patience and and demonstrate that incredibly well.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.240
It's been uh a hard, a hard lesson to learn.
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:58.480
I'm still learning.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.400
Are we all?
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:13.840
So as we bring our podcast towards its inevitable conclusion, um perhaps you'd be so kind, Jamie, to um give us some some key takeaways, ideally three for our listeners.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:14.800
Absolutely.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:27.039
If it if it was me, the the three takeaways I would say, you know, make the effort to hire rights in the first place, to build that foundation, put time and effort in resource to ensure that it's right for both sides.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:34.800
I would then say definitely take the time again and uh and put the resource into onboarding your people.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:41.679
Just because someone's come from a senior leadership position doesn't mean that they can hit the ground running in the first week.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:50.480
They need to help adapting and you know, evolving into your company, otherwise you might find that they're running running in the wrong direction.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:35:12.639
So just before you go on to the third one, I think that's a really, really, really important point because when we um when we did the podcast with Mark Templeton, um, he said one of the big changes that happened with Citrix as they went through growth was they hired too quickly, they hired the wrong people.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:27.599
And and I think your point there, if you're not giving them the guiding principles and they go off in a different direction, that's where you get all that internal conflict and the silos forming because you've just got people building their own little empires.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:34.800
And I think you know, you've got multiple teams now within customer success, but it's still one team.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.000
You're still building out that that team of teams.
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.320
Sorry, I'll let you get back to your third point.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:41.760
No, no, not at all.
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:43.280
I agree with everything you said.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:51.679
It's uh I think the third piece here is find a methodology to help you grow and develop that works for you.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:58.239
You know, we we use the five dysfunctions, Patrick Leot and Sioni's teachings, and it works really well for us.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:06.000
But unless you have an idea or a framework that you're working to, again, you know, you don't know what direction people are going in.
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:07.199
And I think that really helps.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.159
You know, what you just talked about there is having a framework.
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:22.960
What we also see in the tech industry is it's the next shiny thing and the next shiny thing and the next, and so L and D are going, oh, here's a new thing, let's go and roll that out.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.960
Here's a new thing, let's go and roll that out.
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:34.639
And we did a podcast at the very beginning of when we did podcasts, and it was with Verena Sunday, and her podcast was about pick a lane and stick to it.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:41.039
So pick your framework, stick to it, and then if you are going to add bits, add them in, but add them into the framework.
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:47.440
Don't just do something else on the side and something because it has to be super simple.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:57.039
And and one of the things that I think has has made this team so successful is that every time you bring new hires on, they get introduced to the same framework.
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:04.719
So you've got this consistency across the team, and that really is giving you those solid foundations to grow as you are.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:12.320
Yeah, I think the other thing we've learned, Vicki, over time is uh in the tech industry, there's a lot of complexity.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:18.239
And what you've really done at Amplified is allowed us to really focus with this theme of simplification.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:20.719
And it sounds easy, but it's really hard to achieve.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:29.599
But I think we've found that if we can focus and execute on those really important points, um, we actually get a lot more benefit.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.760
So simplifying what we're doing is always top of mind for us.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:40.639
I I love that you're saying that because the way, you know, simplicity is the last point, isn't it, on our speed check.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.960
So we have purpose, trust, clarity, and simplicity.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:52.320
And, you know, being clear on your purpose, you guys have always had a clear purpose, but you've refined that even more.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.440
The trust in the team, we know by measuring that how strong it is.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:06.320
And in fact, you came in on our speed check at 83, which just so happens to be what we say is industry best practice, and we we got that number before you did your speed check.
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.199
So that was just magic that that came in.
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:14.559
But I think now with the work that we've done with you about simplicity, because I described the simplicity bit.
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.320
Sprint simplicity for me is like the sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:22.559
It's like the last bit to really tweak it and the focus that you guys have put in there.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:29.199
I'm actually really looking forward to doing another speed check with you because you are executing at speed, because you have been able to simplify things.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:36.719
I know we've still got a little bit of work to do there, but my goodness, what a journey we've been on over the last two and a half years.
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:37.920
Amazing stuff.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:41.280
So, our last question of you, Jamie, before you we let you go.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.039
Do you have a book recommendation for our listeners, please?
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.559
That's a really tough one, but uh really easy as well, I think.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:52.400
It has to be The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lincioni.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:53.039
It's the foundation.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:54.559
I've heard him, I've heard of him.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:57.440
I thought great stuff.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:06.719
The fact that that's that is your book recommendations and you're always looking for new books goes back to keeping it simple and going, right, of everything.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.000
This this is the one.
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:09.280
Definitely, definitely.
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:10.320
Great stuff.
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.079
Thank you, Jamie, and also thanks, Andy, too for joining us again.
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:18.800
I really appreciate your input, and I'm sure our listeners found that absolutely invaluable.
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:20.559
Um, so we really appreciate it.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.559
It just remains for me to say thanks for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group.
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:28.559
Your comments and subscriptions are as always gratefully received.
