Michael Spicher, PhD, Aesthetics Research Lab: How aesthetics can shape luxury brand storytelling

FSW 3 Conversations with Michael Spicher
Jessica Quillin: [00:00:00] this edition of FSW Conversations, I am talking to Michael Spicher, Phd. Michael is a philosopher, consultant, and speaker. founded Aesthetics Research Lab in 2016 to showcase the variety of ways that aesthetics impacts our lives. He is a co editor for Digital Fashion, Theory, Practice, and Implications
which came out a few months ago with Bloomsbury Publishing, and he writes regularly for Beauty Matter. He is a lecturer at both Boston Architectural College and Massachusetts College of Art and Design. To start, Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, I would love for you to share what initially drew you to study aesthetics and how has your perspective evolved through the years?
Michael Spicher: Thank you for having me, Jessica. Um, I started with the question of beauty. Um, I, I feel like, uh, I've always had a sense that beauty was important. I did. Um, I just didn't know exactly why. And, and then when I realized there's a whole you know disciplinary in my background being in philosophy whole disciplinary world dedicated to the study of beauty um the question of what it really is, um, and a question that uh, you know, we [00:01:00] none of us have actually solved or anything but um that got me You know, going into that category and then realizing there's all sorts of other aspects of aesthetics more broadly.
So, um, I've, I've studied aesthetic experience, uh, taste the sublime. Um, And I think my perspective initially was committed to, or maybe inspired by the more lofty experiences, like the, like the mountaintop experiences, the, um.
Jessica Quillin: Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.
Michael Spicher: The amazing works of art. And then I think maybe my perspective over the years has become more grounded in the everyday notions of beauty and aesthetics that surround us in our lives.
You know, A colleague of mine, we were talking about this very thing and she was saying that, uh, she thinks sometimes aesthetics is overlooked in our daily lives because it's, uh, it's like air and water in a sense, where every time you take a breath, you don't think, wow, that's the most amazing breath of air I've ever taken.
But imagine, well, you know, a situation where you couldn't breathe. Then the first breath you take after that [00:02:00] would actually be amazing. And so, um, aesthetics uh, is kind of permeates our lives in such a way that we don't often, you know, specifically consider it. And so that's kind of where I, uh, have been focusing a lot of my energy lately.
Jessica Quillin: And before I actually get questions on luxury, you know, just One question I have, you know, based on what you've just said is do you feel we're moving away from sort of this ability to appreciate these everyday experiences, either because we're too busy or we're too cynical.
Michael Spicher: Um, I would say mixed if I know that that's not like a great answer. It's sort of, uh, it's definitely like a, an answer of a philosopher like yes and no. But, uh, when I first started out, it was very much the feeling of, uh, being a lone ranger, like nobody seemed to care much about aesthetics or beauty, um, in the way that I was trying to make it work.
But now there are lots of people that are, um, bringing I conversations about beauty into business. Um, I mean, I just led an aesthetics workshop at a biotech company. And, uh, so I think there's a lot of, uh, really interesting things happening. People are being much more receptive to it. And I think, um, I, I really tend to think that beauty is something
that people are turning [00:03:00] to in some ways, a little bit more because, uh, well, I guess to quote, um, you know, Dostoevsky from his novel, the idiot, it says, uh, beauty will save the world. And I think at a time where there's a lot of, it seems like there's added uncertainty and we're being inundated with more information.
Like you wouldn't have Pre internet, you know, you wouldn't have heard uh, about as many struggles around the world as you can now just by logging into any social media. Uh, so you, like, I think we have a much more acute sense of, of the problems around the world. And, and people, I think, I do think so, in that sense, I think people are turning to beauty, but I think we're also being very distracted.
So I think that's, it's, it's, uh, it's very individual that we have to fight against that and, uh, force ourselves, uh, to, to, to pay better attention, develop, uh, better, um, aesthetic habits um, and I've recently thought of a phrase, um, about that I call aesthetic future, or like we need to control our aesthetic futures by taking intentional steps now and, uh, paying and paying attention to, um, how our environment makes us feel and things that we like and developing that, that, uh,
Jessica Quillin: I love that. I mean, That's so, um, connects to the wellness movement. I think I think the encouragement to, you know, have people, you know, [00:04:00] focus on, uh, self care and, you know, kind of personal health as a way of sort of, you know, um, safeguarding not only your own perspective, but I think for the health of the human experience in general.
Um, so I think that that's a really powerful concept. Um, yeah. So, um, Speaking of things that are uncertain, you know, you do a lot of work in luxury and, you know, luxury brands and aesthetics seem pretty inseparable. How do you see aesthetics shaping the values and the emotional connections that luxury brands aim to create with consumers?
Michael Spicher: I would, um, I would say, how do I see it shaping how I, I mean, There's two sort of two questions, how I see it shaping or how I think it should shape might be two kind of different ways of thinking about it. Um, I, I do think that one of the things, because aesthetic experience is such a crucial aspect of what it means to be human.
Um, We need to consider this, uh, from the perspective of business. Uh, If we want to engage the whole person, whether it's an employee or a customer, we need to consider the aesthetics, uh, and not just, uh, the, the, um, more intellectual or the more, uh, like data, like people keep saying things like data driven for a lot of businesses.
Um, so, like, We need to consider how aesthetics plays a role into [00:05:00] all of that. All of, uh, our, our, our entire approach, um, if we want to engage the whole person. And so, um, so I do think, uh, I do think, um, aesthetics is, is, uh, one of the key ways that does emotionally connect us to products. I can give you an example from my own life.
I was looking, um, years ago, looking for just to get a new, uh, leather bag to like bring, like to bring to my classes. And, and to, Teach with. And
Jessica Quillin: Um,
Michael Spicher: wanted to kind of like, you know, uh, explore.
We turned to a different, We were on one website, we turned to the next page of a list of products. And she gasped audibly, um, and the one that we ended up getting was the one where she, you know, the, the, the leather bag that she gasped on because, and it was more than, it was like double what we had originally thought we wanted to spend
um, as, as poor graduate students, but, uh, uh, it's, it's the one we went with and, and we were able to rationalize it later. Like, Can we come up with reasons why we do this? But this is, this is what people don't often consider. Is people don't. Um, There's so much literature, uh, from psychology and other, other, uh, disciplines that have basically shown that we don't make [00:06:00] rational decisions.
We make emotional decisions and then rationalize them after the fact. And so I think, um, uh, and Even a Harvard business professor named Gerald Zaltman claims that we, you know, 95 percent of our retail purchases are made from the subconscious. And so if we want to tap into that, that's, that's where, you know, through, um, the aesthetics of the presentation to the aesthetics of storytelling, uh, and everything and every other aspect of it are all crucial for, for any brand to, um, to really connect with people.
Jessica Quillin: No, I love that so much. And I feel like, I mean, so look, we approach things in a very sort of specific lens in my agency because we do content strategy, right? We're looking to help brands sort of take a more holistic approach to content, uh, across channels and storytelling is part of that, I think but you know, one of the points do you make, I think that's interesting as you hear so much in marketing about sort of.
the importance of emotion, as you said, in terms of, you know, making non rational, irrational decisions when it comes to purchasing and everything else like that. But I think there's a different nuance of what you're saying in terms of this need to take a more humanistic approach. And, you know, I know that you've explored the importance of beauty in the human experience a lot.
And I'm wondering about that, how this concept of sort of, Humanism and [00:07:00] this sort of whole person approach really translates into sort of luxury branding and storytelling um, because, you know, I think you see moments of this from luxury brands in, I think, discreet marketing campaigns. But, you know, one of the things we're always sort of, I don't want to say hammering into brands from a content strategy perspective.
I mean, I'm in the middle of writing a book on, you know, How you do a content audit and all of that. But from a storytelling perspective, I feel like you see moments of this and there are some brands like, you know, Hermes and even Brunello Cuccinelli and Laurel Piano that do kind of dive into that more sort of whole person kind of, you know, emotive state of storytelling.
But I'd be interested from your end, how that concept of sort of humanism and emotional connection really translates into branding and storytelling on your perspective and sort of, you know, who's doing it well and, and kind of what are the challenges with that.
Michael Spicher: Uh, I would say with storytelling, one of the things I think people misunderstand maybe about storytelling it's in terms of, you know, branding is that it's not just a way to convey information. That's part of it. Like you want to connect with, uh, you want to, You want to convey certain information about your company, about your specific products, but, um, there's a researcher that I've read [00:08:00] about where  
uh, they, uh, they talk about the importance of making the story aesthetically pleasing in itself. Uh, so it's not just, It's not just, uh, a means to an end. It should be good for its own sake and if it is, they conclude that, uh, it will be engaging and it will be repeatable. So if you hear a story about a brand and you're kind of already leaning toward that brand anyway, yeah, you might go with it, but it's not because of the story.
It's just, you know, maybe the story adds some information that you didn't previously have. But, but if you have a story that you're, Uh, If a company tells a story and the story is really good, then they, then people will repeat it and, uh, and, and engage with it. And I think, and I think that's the difference with, uh, that's, that's, that's To me, like aesthetics is, you know, to use like business terminology, it's like a force multiplier.
And, um, and so you, whatever you're doing, I pretty much always say, whatever you're doing, aesthetics will make it better. In some sense, and I think that's where, uh, people miss out. They, They might have a clever story uh, and then there's other things like, you know, like something that's funny. It could, could also have the same kind of thing, but something that's really, um, aesthetically engaging, uh, is, is, uh, [00:09:00] I think, like, Um, pushes it over the edge, I guess.
Uh, and, and when people remember your story, I mean, they, they, they do tend to retell it. I mean, I, I've, I've connected with some different people um, and I still remember like, even like, even like the thinnest narrative where it's not like this elaborate, I mean, it doesn't, that's, that's the thing I think people miss is it can be very simple.
Jessica Quillin: Yeah.
Michael Spicher: I can mention one that I thought did it really well. Um, There's a company I met, uh, the founder in New York, uh, at a, at a beauty industry event and a founder of this company called Fable in Maine and, um,
Jessica Quillin: the story behind the name of the company was just simply he had memories of his grandmother 
Michael Spicher: telling him and his sister's stories while rubbing oil into their hair.
And it was just this really relatable, uh, story that, uh, I remember it, you know, several years later, it has stayed with me, um, because it's, and like I said, it's very simple. But it became the name of their brand. Um, and, uh, so I think, uh, I think that's, that's one example of a company that has, has done it well, they're not necessarily, um, yeah, anyway.
Jessica Quillin: No, I love that. And I, I think like I said, so much of sort of, look, I'm coming into this, I started life as a brand started as an. Uh, kind of moved into becoming an enterprise content strategist. So I sort of have opinions of where I'm like, I don't [00:10:00] come in to tell, to tell luxury brands, what stories to tell.
I think they have their own heritage to that, but I think there's an interesting, uh, point in what you're saying in terms of this difference between the luxury brand's own story and owning that story and defining it really well, and really making a mark in terms of defining what makes their identity as a brand
unique in like and a uh, signifier in somebody's mind on the one hand, but there's also the stories they tell through marketing and how they sort of convey those emotional ideas to really build connections and sell products um, you know, but uh I think you know you and I both work in digital in the digital space And I think it's a very challenging thing for brands to do and i'm wondering for mira and what are sort of the unique challenges luxury brands face when communicating aesthetics in a digital landscape?
Um, you know It's not a lecture example, but you see the backlash against, well, two things. Now we've got the Coca Cola Christmas ad, that's, that's AI, right? And then you've got Jaguar's rebranding now, which comes across as just, what are they doing there? Um, So just, you know, what are sort of That challenge from a digital standpoint in terms of, I think, both brand [00:11:00] storytelling as this concept of how you as a brand define your own story versus the stories you're actually telling sort of at that sort of product and individual, um, you know, uh, consumer level there
um, because as you know, digital changes everything. And I think, especially in today's sort of, uh, creator economy, this sort of notion of, um, narrative co creation and this need for sort of consumers to participate, but also to have their own stories be part of that. And there's this huge sort of, I think, space where brands, as you say, are focusing more on the broadcast side of things and what they wanna say.
So I'm just wondering from your end, sort of what are sort of the opportunities and challenges of aesthetics for, for brand communication within that sort of digital space?
Michael Spicher: Yeah, I think, um, this, this might slightly go outside of the scope of your, your question a little bit, but I, I, one of the things I've been really concerned with or thought was, uh, strange is this, because the digital space allows us to do things we can't do physically. Um, I think there's been this over kind of commitment to make everything look sci fi.
And I think it doesn't connect [00:12:00] with a lot of people. And so I think that's one of the challenges is, uh, how do we, how can we do, like, we can still do some interesting, creative things that can't be done in the physical world. Um, But we can still maintain, uh, and connect with, um, our, our humanity in the physical world.
And I think, I think, uh, we've, we've maybe overplayed the novelty of some of the digital uh, aspects and at the expense of, of connecting with, uh, with, with people, uh, because people, one of the things we know from, uh, philosophy and the science of perception is people gravitate toward what is familiar. Um, and so you have to connect something familiar.
It can't be, It can't be completely different or, or they won't. they'll just feel that's not for me. Uh, So I think that's one of the, I think that's one of the biggest challenges is, is making sure that you connect with, uh, with people where they are and, you know, kind of guide them into a digital space rather than kind of impose the digital space onto them.
Jessica Quillin: I love that. And actually that speaks very well, not to tear my own heart again for content strategy, but we, we, We spend a lot of time working with clients to really, I think, emphasize the importance of these um, and I think it's really important to have these guided experiences. And I think approaching people where they are and, and not just
[00:13:00] blasting everything at them, but really kind of providing both the kind of contents, content and context they need within digital spaces to feel comfortable. Feel acknowledged. I think there, and then, you know, kind of. be eager recipients of storytelling because there are stories that they feel like things they, they know and they want to aspire to.
Michael Spicher: When, when One of the lessons we know from like actual master storytellers, like, uh, like, you know, Kurt Vonnegut is he, he, in his guide of, um, I think like seven or so rules of. of writing. One of the rules is write just for one person. And so I believe if I'm not mistaken, he, he always thought of his sister as he wrote his, uh, fiction.
And when we do that, it actually, you know, I think maybe the, the, the people might shy away from that thinking like, well, I want to reach everybody or I want to reach a wider, but by doing by focusing on this, it actually creates a more intimate approach rather than saying, I want to, I want to advertise to a thousand people.
If you focus on one, and I think it actually does the, I think it actually does that better and creates this more [00:14:00] intimate thing. Rather than, you know, and so I think we can learn lessons from, from actual master storytellers. That,
Jessica Quillin: love, I love that. And, you know, I've been, uh, I've been preaching the benefits of narrative marketing for literally 16 years. And, but I, but, but no, But I, I totally agree with you. And, you know, while I realize I'm bashing all my UX design friends, um, and, you know, sort of the approach that most people take to digital design with generalized personas of audience groups.
Um, I. Think the noise of the current kind of digital ecosystem now makes that sort of, if you will, micro experience creation so much more valuable. And I think luxury is naturally positioned to do that. Um, We've had enough of, you know, perfume ads with Charlize Theron coming out of random, uh, pools of gold.
I think with no narrative, I've actually done my own, uh, I. I read an article like two years ago doing basically an anatomy of a perfume ad as I took a Dior perfume ad and I literally mapped it on like a literary like story map kind of thing and it's ridiculous and there's no plot. I'm not saying that adds any plot but I think from what you're saying, you know, this ability I think of brands to be more specific and honest in in kind of that authentic is is such a powerful thing.
Um, so I, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that [00:15:00] your work on digital fashion specifically has gained a lot of attention recently. And you even have a book that just came out on the topic and I would love for you to discuss what digital fashion means to you and how aesthetics plays a role in its appeal.
Oh, the book. There it is.
Michael Spicher: Sorry, digital fashion, say the question again. I got distracted by grabbing the book.
Jessica Quillin: I just know it's very exciting and congratulations on that. I just wanted you to discuss what role, sorry, what digital fashion means to you and how aesthetics plays a role in its appeal.
Michael Spicher: Yeah, I, uh, that's, that's, um, well, First of all, I should say that's, um, kind of my chapter in the book is on that exact question because, um, when we think about digital fashion versus physical fashion, um, physical fashion, uh, like if it, if it were raining outside and you wanted to protect yourself from the rain and the only thing you could find was some ugly jacket, you know, you, you would, you would wear it, you know, even if you hated it, just, you'd rather wear this ugly jacket than get, uh, you know, get soaking wet from the rain.
Digital fashion does not have those kinds of issues because digital fashion can't protect you from the elements. Um, So what's left when you strip away any real functionality to it, then the only thing that's left is, uh, aesthetics and I think meaning, which I think they're, I think those are related, but, uh, they're sort of, they're still separable.
Um, we, For me, digital fashion is [00:16:00] a way, um, that we can learn to create and express our identities and develop our identities without, uh, the, uh, the strictures of, uh, uh, of the physical world. Um, without the, the, the Like, even if you, Even if someone has like a gigantic closet, it's still limited. Whereas you could, uh, and You still don't want to waste space, uh, in a closet or a house for things that you may or may not actually ever really like.
So the digital space gives you an opportunity to develop your, uh, your aesthetic. Um, I mean, It's not fully there yet. Uh, So I want to be clear about that, but it, you know, it gets, it keeps getting better and better every, every year. But, uh, the other, I mean, The other problem is people with their identities, they may feel uncomfortable going into dressing rooms.
They may feel uncomfortable going and buying certain things at a physical store, um, or even ordering them online where, you know, you don't know if you're going to really like this. Uh, So this gives you a chance to, to explore in ways that, um, and, um, that are safer, more, uh, you know,  
Jessica Quillin: cheaper. Gen Z wears a [00:17:00] garment 7 times before 
Michael Spicher: it ends up in landfill, um, and things like that.
And a lot of the problems arise with social media culture, and things like that. So, uh, You know, the famous, uh, the big, one of the biggest companies dress X, they, um, they basically say, you know, if you, you know, we're obviously not going to not wear physical clothes anymore, but if you want a garment that you're only going to use for a digital purpose, then just get a digital garment.
And it's so much better for the environment than something that's going to ultimately end up in landfill because, you know, a lot of people don't know that uh, I mean, I think it's, I think it's gained, um, people have gained this knowledge quicker in the last couple of years, but, um, that a lot of times if you buy something and then you return it and get your refund, you think, okay, great.
You know, that was, That worked. Uh, but a lot of times the company just trashes the garment that you sent back and they don't actually resell it. So. Um, That whole process may have worked on your end, but it still just put a garment in landfill that shouldn't have otherwise been there.
Jessica Quillin: Yeah, definitely. And there are so many important things that you just said that I want to try to pick them apart a little bit. Um, One of the things you mentioned was just [00:18:00] this sort of idea that you can sort of express your authentic self through digital fashion. I'm just wondering, in your opinion, how does digital fashion allow for new expressions of aesthetics, um, especially when compared with traditional fashion?  
Michael Spicher: Uh, one of the, One of the key ways is you can, you can do things that you just can't do in the physical world, uh, like sneakers made of fire Uh a dress made of water. So there's lots of uh, lots of things like that that people have done that uh, just can't be done in the physical world, but I I do think um, Uh that we like we are in charge of You know, each one of us is in charge of developing who we are.
And part of that, a huge part of that is our aesthetic taste. And, And part of that is obviously, um, our clothing. Um, and, And a recent study in 2021 done by, um, a team that consisted of at least a few psychologists and at least one philosopher. Um, they. They've begun to show that, uh, people, um, associate their, uh, um, aesthetic taste as, as an integral part of their identity, um, in a way that we, like maybe surprises some people.
So, uh, you know, Someone said my favorite color used to be blue, but now it's green. We probably don't think something super significant has [00:19:00] changed about that person, but if someone were to say, uh, I, I was an atheist and now I've become really religious or I, or vice versa, you know, or I was, um, uh, politically right.
And now I'm politically left, you know, or vice versa, we would think something more significant about their identity has changed than just they used to wear a lot of black and now they wear a lot of blue or something, you know, um, and what people have in the same, uh, study also agreed was that if they were to change from listening to classical music to pop music, they rated that as high as changing religious or political affiliations.
And so, uh, so it's not like we often we have, we love saying things like beauty is skin deep and and there's I get why those expressions make sense. You know, I think there's truth to some of these cliches, but the same time we value our aesthetic taste as as as as integrally, uh, or intimately tied to our identity.
And, uh, and I think we can't ignore that either. So that's why it's, it's a little bit [00:20:00] complicated because on one hand, you know, you, we can see how, uh, beauty and aesthetics have, have kind of oppressed others, but at the same time, we. Also think they're so valuable for our lives.
Jessica Quillin: Yeah, and I just love, I think, From just my own personal experience to see how digital fashion can allow that sort of emotional resonance and I think that sense of sort of personal creative expression, um, you know. it's in, in even the general, the generational differences that you're mentioning there.
You know, I'm, I'm mother to a gen alpha kid who's in Roblox all the time and, you know, watching his sort of evolution from, an 11 year old to now a 13 year old within a space I mean he he's quite good at coding. And things like in his own space like he builds roller coasters in like a sim game like he knows he learned physics from it and he does A lot of stuff but Even within roblox when he first joined for for years his um avatar was a gingerbread man and it was just because it made him happy and then you know, he recently changed it to um sadness from inside out and we asked him why he changed that he was like well she's my favorite character because she's so cute, she's really kind, and she's really nice, and that's the kind of person I want to be, and it's just this sense, I think, of almost, I don't want to say selflessness, but this, this sort of, it's an, it's an, it's a, it's a signifier of personality, but I think it's also this sort of, you know, uh, space where people can, you know, feel comfortable, and I, and I think really craft an identity that feels true to them, [00:21:00] and I think that that is a really powerful thing, um, you know, and just to kind of move more into sort of the, the fashion side of things, I mean, I think there's a lot of, also, practical applications to digital fashion from obviously virtual try ons. And digital fashion.
Um, you know, My friend Louise Lange and digital twin is doing some really amazing practical things to sort of bridge that gap between sort of those digital and physical tools and just on that sort of, you know, fashion as aesthetic sort of beauty side of things. I'm curious what you think about the idea of digital experiences and that sort of emotional resonance quotient and how it's They compared with physical luxury items because you know when you own something you get that sort of tactical.
It's mine I own it kind of feel and I'm just wondering from your end do you feel like digital experiences can ever have that same emotional connection?
Michael Spicher: Yeah, I, I don't, I hasn't, I'm very hesitant to say same, uh, but I do think an emotional connection, my, my kind of concern with, or whatever, my, my personal feelings, I guess, on, on, um, a lot of the digital stuff, not just fashion, but just in general, I, I guess I think about it in terms of
Jessica Quillin: Yeah.
Michael Spicher: back when people used to own records or [00:22:00] CDs, uh, you would, you know, this is, this is mine.
I own this. Um, And now we've replaced all of that, um, with streaming. So you just pay endlessly. Forever. And then if you stop paying, you have nothing to show for it. So I do, I do think there's an interesting challenge here. I know that's, like I said, that's not, that's not the exact same context, but I think there's an interesting challenge of how we, uh, You know, there's something there's something tactile about opening, um, uh, something physical that now is something only digital.
And the same thing, even with going through photographs, of course, like we're such an image obsessed culture now, because everyone has a camera in their pocket, and Uh, there's a difference between just scrolling through like the thousand pictures on someone's phone versus holding a photograph in your hand.
And so I I do I do worry about that kind of, um, like emotional distancing that the digital often brings So that's where I'd be hesitant to say it's the [00:23:00] same, but I do think there is clearly emotional connections. And, um, one of the, one of the, you know, not to get, not to get too philosophical, but one of the, uh, uh, kind of approaches to philosophy, um, started by Edmund Husserl, uh, that is called phenomenology talks about intentions and experiences and he's, and this is where, you know, I, I bring this up in my, in my chapter in the book as well.
I. I'm, I think for digital things right now, I'm less concerned with, um, uh, like in terms of philosophy, I'm less concerned with the actual nature of digital objects rather than our intentions and experiences. And I think if we focus more on that, then we can get, uh, we can get a clearer understanding of our emotional attachments and approach because, um, There is a, there is a difference.
Uh, I mean, It's clearly different that you like holding an, a physical photograph. Uh, like I, I, I can imagine. like Holding a physical photograph of a loved one that's passed away versus just scrolling through like a thousand photos on your phone of that person. There seems to be something different going on there.
And people talk about this with, uh, with reading books, like holding a physical book versus a digital book, but there's, but there's benefits of everything. [00:24:00] Like I've heard some people like, uh, especially a lot of academics just hate digital books. And I'm thinking, well, the one thing digital books can do that physical books can't is.
You can zoom. So if you if you If you have, uh poor eyesight, you can enlarge the text you can't just you can't like go on a physical page and like move your fingers to enlarge the text on the page But you can do that on a digital book. So there we I think we're still in a process of figuring out what the digital can do in our connection to it and that's why I I think it's so important to ask You Um,   I mean, not to not to, you know, fully push philosophy, but that's why I think it's important to ask a lot of these philosophical questions about the digital.
Uh, It's already overtaken our lives, so it's too late to avoid that. But even as new things come about, like digital fashion, like the conversations that seem to have quieted down a little bit about the metaverse, um, they're still happening. This, that people don't like that word anymore. Um, uh, and, and as AI, you know, it's becoming more and more prominent.
I mean, questions about Like, how do we, like, I think the biggest question is how do we maintain our [00:25:00] humanity and with, while using these things, these things are tools. And I think when we think about them more than tools, they're really good tools maybe, but when we think when we put too much emphasis on them as being more than a tool, I think that's when we get into trouble.
Jessica Quillin: Yeah, no, and I agree. I'm just going back to too many undergrad classes on sort of like early robots and this sort of need of, you know, uh, I, I grew up with sci fi. I've been steeped in it from forever. But this notion that like robots are going to take over the world and I, I, I, you're stating how I, I feel about this.
I, I, I think AI and these sorts of digital tool, uh, you know, technologies are tools. And I think when properly contextualized, they can have a lot of power, um, there. I'm just also thinking tangentially when you're talking about sort of this ability of digital, I think to, um. I think create a new role almost within sort of our spectrum of human experience.
Um, you know, I come to everything and I can never turn this off. Look, I'm a, I'm a romanticist. I spent, you know, four years deep in the annals of Percy Bysshe Shelley's poetry. And, you know, he had this whole wild theory that, um, you know, if you could make poetry like music, you could basically influence the human imagination directly through the air without people even knowing when they're reading something that it was, you know, good.
And it would start to be able to create this sort of ideal human society and make people in the world a better, better place. But, you know, without going into, you know, weird things of, you know, the empty sign of music and, you know, influencing people without being, knowing that they're being influenced, which is slightly weird now that I think about it in that context.
But I think there's something in this concept of the sort of beauty of the digital experiences. And I think especially for luxury and fashion, um, to inspire better practices, more sustainable practices. And, And, you know, kind of in that [00:26:00] aesthetics of beauty, give beauty a new position of, uh, you know, allowing people to pause and appreciate sort of that, that quality and, and, um, timelessness of luxury.
And so I, I know you work, um, with Cartier and other luxury brands, I'm curious for your perspective, specifically on luxury and this sort of notion of that balance between innovation and timeless aesthetics, um, because, you know, my biggest criticism, which is going to be everywhere in the book I'm writing of luxury is that, um, the pandemic caused a lot of very poor decision making from a digital perspective. Actually, just to be clear.
In general, Fashion luxury tends to take a very additive approach to technology and just like, okay, this vendor selling me this, I'm going to add this new tool. We're all in the metaverse. Okay, I'm going to go over here. I'm all in AI. I'm now over here. And I think you, you start to lose this sort of, we're only focusing on innovation and we're forgetting about our cultural values as like, you know, a heritage brand or this notion of luxury is elevated.
So I'm just wondering how can digital fashion sort of help luxury find its place within this sort of new world. I mean, Even I know I realized that that's like giving a temporal aspect of something that's continually evolving. But This notion of do you feel like [00:27:00] digital can help luxury balance that sort of innovation, timelessness, or should luxury just go back to being analog?
I mean, I'm just.
Michael Spicher: I mean, I think I, I think, um, you're trying to reduce it to an either or is, is, is, uh, wouldn't work anyway. So I think, um, I think using all the tools we have at our, uh, disposal, but I think, but I will say this. I think some companies feel like they have to do something digital now. And I think that's a mistake, too.
Some companies, maybe they don't need to do anything digital. Maybe, Maybe everything's fine. Uh, I don't mean, I don't mean, um, just, uh, keep the status quo either. But, uh, I think like this, we, we, we embrace everything novel. And you see this in all contexts. Um, uh, like, uh, uh,  
Jessica Quillin: Are you talking about Gucci is what we want to know.
Michael Spicher: I, well, I was thinking about music, like we're, we're one, like, you know, you would see this with trends
um, like, like some style of music becomes, uh, popular. Then all of a sudden every record label has their token band that represents that style of music. And, uh, even, and, and they don't always do it well and such. So I think, I think we, we, uh, we often jump on board to some new novel idea without any thought.
And, uh, just because everyone else is doing it. So we should do it too, in order to stay, you know, trendy or, or cutting edge. And I'm just not sure that's the best approach. Um, If you can't figure out [00:28:00] why you're doing this, then don't do it. Uh, you know, um, I, like, it just seems obvious to me that, um, That, you know, or, or spend some more time thinking about it before you do it.
Like, Even if you feel, Even if you have a sense, like we should be doing this, whatever, you know, whatever the new technology is, uh, cause we probably don't even know some of the new technologies that might exist 10 to 20 years from now. Um, and so I, so yeah, I think, uh, digital, um, can help with innovation, but it, you know, it goes back to something we, you know, we've already talked about if it doesn't.
if it doesn't keep and maintain the human aspect of your company, then I think you're doing it wrong in some sense and uh and digital is You know as people definitely tend to gravitate toward the familiar. Um, Digital could be a nice tool to help that along, to help, to help, uh, like, you know, as you, as storytelling through digital, um, media, uh, and so on, like there, there's ways to do it, but, uh, if you can't really, um, if your company can't figure out why they're doing it.
I know I just, I know I just said this, but it's so worth repeating. Then I don't think you need to do it or, or you do table it for a while and really think through it before just jumping on board. There are so many things that just, uh, you [00:29:00] see it happen, uh, you know, where people, you know, dive into something because they feel like they have to and then It just it was completely wasted effort and they just blew a bunch of money on nothing because they didn't really develop a strategy before diving in and I think people I think people are doing that with AI right now too.
Jessica Quillin: Yeah. Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, you're like, it's, I just, we wrote, We wrote a white paper a month ago, uh, talking about sort of this notion of it was in retail technology, specifically of just the tech uh, kind of overspend, if you will. I mean, You have brands with overinflated tech stocks because they've just.
they haven't just bought the new technology. They've bought all the technology. And it's just like, there's no rhyme or reason as to why every team needs its own, you know, CRM for this, or this team is in the metaverse or that team is, uh, you know, on Instagram, or we have three teams to manage Instagram and all of this sort of thing.
And it can be very expensive, but also I think distracting. And, you know, our whole point with content strategies, content is not just digital, right? It's, it's. I mean, Content for us, this is very expansive, anywhere your target messaging, sorry, anywhere your brand messaging, um, meets your target audiences and, you know, the sense of needing to tell stories in physical space where your customers are shopping in there and having that feel [00:30:00] consonant with the digital experience there.
And I think there's been so much attention on that. You know, what Gen Z needs as that sort of up and coming next generation, which is why you see all these people jumping into the metaverse and trying to encourage the next generation of consumers and focusing on acquisition. But it's like most of the people buying stuff right now are, especially ultra high net worth and high net worth individuals are millennials and Gen X and it's this sort of notion of today's consumers, have different tastes and you really need that balance.
Um, so what I'm curious about is for you just sort of. You know, kind of in a widespread kind of way. How do you think a refined understanding of aesthetics can help luxury brands better connect with discerning consumers, understanding that these different generations have shop in different ways and have different tastes, and how can sort of understanding aesthetics help kind of understand those, those audiences with their different tastes.
Transcription
Michael Spicher: is I think sometimes we jump on bandwagons and it's, it comes off as more like, uh,   uh, very superficial to the generation that we're trying to reach. Uh, and, and I think that's the biggest thing is I think authenticity is something that is very much connected with a [00:31:00] brand's aesthetics.
And when we change that, um, not that it shouldn't change over time. Uh, that's not what I'm saying or about to say, but, but when we change it too quickly, because we think we have to do a complete 180 to reach someone else, I think it often reads very, very, uh, um, very superficially to that, to that target audience.
And so, um, I would say, uh, With, with this question, um, What we know is that consumers want more of an experience now than they ever did there. They'll pay more for that. The rather than, And aesthetics is a big part of it. And if you can develop a really good, um, aesthetic strategy for your company. And it's more than just the way your product looks.
It's more than just marketing. Um, I'm, I'm working on a draft of a book right now called, is your business beautiful? And it's all about these kinds of questions, um, from how to create a whole atmosphere. So it's not just, um, you know, it's not just window dressing as maybe some people have, uh, thought of, uh, aesthetics in some context, it, it, it, it should permeate your entire business strategy.
And I [00:32:00] think when it does that, then you don't have to, like, uh, you don't have to convince people. I mean, I don't mean like you don't have to market or whatever, but people will, people see that. Um, it's just, it's the same thing with when you meet an individual and they're very genuine, uh, You know, and we, you know, we're occasionally wrong about that.
And we'll, we'll occasionally be wrong about a business as well, but it's a similar principle, just doing it on a larger scale.
Jessica Quillin: No, I love that. Um, and I got to ask because I spent way too many years reading about the sublime not to ask, which is, you know, I think this concept of beauty as sort of an elevated platonic concept that exists, you know, uh, almost everywhere. You know, predefined as a preset notion is, is very sort of fixed with them, large parts of philosophy, like the beautiful with a capital B.
And, you know, um, I'm just curious, kind of, especially In applications to, to business, how are you sort of defining and benchmarking beauty within that context in a way I think that is more open because I, for me, I take a version of beauty that's more kind of inclusive and open and sort of, you know, uh, I don't want to say. Minimalist, but, but I mean, it's, it's something that is sort of this, this happy place where everyone can be themselves, be truly expressive and, you know, kind of gets to the core of what's good about human values and all of that. But there is so much sort of to debate within what's good versus not. It's like when people ask me what's good content versus not content, I'm like, it's all relative.
So I'm just wondering for beauty itself, especially for business, um, how are you sort of defining what beauty is first as that sort of. [00:33:00] Concept like concrete concept to to sort of, uh, shape the rest of the conversation. Silence. Silence.
Michael Spicher: What I do instead, um, and it's still, you know, still work in progress. This could, this could change slightly, but What I do instead is offer some of the standard characteristics of beauty that have been offered for thousands of years and, and have been also reconfirmed in new scientific studies, many of them.
Uh, so, uh, For example, proportion is one of the oldest going all the way back to Plato and Aristotle, uh, oldest conditions of beauty, um, uh, integrity. Radiance, uh, Francis Hutchison and, uh, offered the idea that beauty is uniformity amidst diversity. And so I think, uh, that kind of idea, Um, we don't often think of that as beauty, but I think, uh, I think what Hutchison is getting at here is something that is very applicable to the business context.
For example, I, I wrote a short thing about, uh, like building a team, like building like a good team. And, and if you had a team, if you, let's say you had to build a team of 10 people and you hire 10 visionaries, nothing's going to get done. Like, great. They can all, They can all have these brilliant lofty ideas, but you need, you need a mixture of, of different types of people.
And I think that's what will [00:34:00] create, uh, you know, what, what we might not, we might not ever call it this. And I don't think we're ever going to necessarily translate all of our language into the language of aesthetics when talking about business, I think it provides a framework for thinking through the business though.
And so, uh, like. Like part of what got me even to think this way was, uh, uh, a book I read called organizational aesthetics by Steven DeGroot. And he, he's starts the book by saying, you know, people often ask if a business is profitable. Uh, Then maybe they might ask if it's ethical, but they almost never ask if it's beautiful.
And so, uh, like I said, I don't think that's going to become a thing, uh, where people all of a sudden, that's like the new language of businesses. Uh, like Let's talk about the beauty of this business or that, but, you know, but I do think. If someone is really concerned about, you know, really, uh, analyzing the success, uh, and, and how to move forward and, and, and things with their business, adding this other, other framework for thinking about it is very useful.
Um, And in fact, uh, uh, Pauline Brown, um, in her book. Aesthetic intelligence talks about. She thinks aesthetics is like going to be the defining role of business in the next, in the next decade. Um, And I, I think there's something interesting about [00:35:00] that kind of thinking and you see it, you see it popping up in conversations more than I ever have before.
And I think that's, uh, to me, that's very fruitful where I would say is, uh, people often don't have, um, uh, the depth of knowledge from a background in aesthetics or studies of beauty. And I think sometimes that's part of the problem is I think we need to gain a better understanding, which is part of the reason why I do what I do is offer workshops and, and, uh, writings and, and talks on these things.
So that way, You know, people people have a sense like I sort of like this. I sort of don't like that, but they don't necessarily always know how to explain that and put it into language. And we know from, um, from, uh, There's a philosopher I know, uh, Anne Sophie Barowich, who's specifically working on smell, uh, uh, and, and, and like researching our understanding.
And she said, what makes people who are like wine tasters who often use smell first or perfumers. There's nothing necessarily special about them [00:36:00] physically. They've, They've developed this ability um, and, and, and smell is one of the most notoriously difficult to put into words, but they've developed this ability over time and, and some studies that she refers to, um, in her various works talk about how, uh, you know, within a few You know, the lay person can can significantly improve their understanding and ability to explain what they're smelling.
And so, to me, that smell because it's so notoriously are considered, you know, ambiguous, more so than other things. Um, the other senses. Uh, If we can do that with smell, how much more can we do that? You know, with, uh, you know, like we should be able to, it's like, uh, uh, to me, It's like a paradigm of, of, of how we can train ourselves to be better at aesthetics.
We just don't think we need to, uh, in some ways.
Jessica Quillin: no. And I love that. I mean, look, I wrote an entire book on effectively synesthesia. So, uh, you know, I, I, I agree with that, but I think there's a lot of power for the business landscape and sort of this idea of. Um, you know, building something better and, and, and that, you know, kind of valuable.
I mean, I think, you know, one of the reasons I started my agency in the first place was just this notion that content everywhere, it's not good, it's very bad. And it doesn't need for, you know, kind of, I think one of the reasons, you know, fashion and luxuries was sort of a natural place for me post PhD
okay. Spending years working in opera, but is this notion of that the beautiful as it [00:37:00] exists at least it's it's feasible within the construct of fashion luxury and that's a place where aesthetics I think is contextualized and has business value. And I think itself in this sort of pick you I mean, One of the reasons we're writing a book on luxury content strategy is because luxury content is really peculiar in a way, right?
It's luxury. They're Veblen goods, right? They don't need to exist. We have equivalent products at even of equivalent craftsmanship. And because this brand makes it as opposed to this brand, I'm going to be willing to pay, you know, 2000 dollars for as opposed to 250 dollars. And it's, it's in that aesthetic value, both of the brand story, but also the good itself.
And, And I think this notion of businesses focusing on more value based experiences for both employees. And I think for their overall sort of business outlook, um, has so much power. And I think so much of the corporate culture we've all been, uh, raised in has taken that out of us. Um, you know, and I, I've, I've seen it myself.
I mean, I post PhD, my first job was at Washington national opera working. I mean, I used to go straight for Placido Domingo. So I've been in that space of like, I'm running my own magazine. I have to do all this, but like just being worn down by the bureaucracy and the system of like, okay, yes, I'm publishing a magazine, but I also have to like work with a graphic designer and do all this and get it out on deadline and, and, you know, have people have opinions about it.
And this notion of business as this theory, I'm going to go there. Sort of man centric type of world and you have to get everything done on hard deadlines. And yes, it's fine if it looks pretty, but really we need to be, especially now with digital, everything needs to be faster, cheaper. [00:38:00] And, you know, Omni channel everywhere at once.
And I think for luxury, it's a struggle because they're supposed to be focused on the slower, the beauty of it. And I think digital is a space where they sort of get a bit lost at times. And you, I think for us, at least content strategy is this notion of having a sort of centralized integrated framework to drive content planning, creation and management across channels as that sort of conduit through which luxury storytelling can really start to sing because as you say, you can focus on building those moments and not have to be everywhere at once.
Um, you know, and I would be curious just from your end. I think, um, I see brands like Bottega Veneta, which now has no social right. They rely on sort of other people talking about them to sort of build buzz this and I think this notion of a luxury brand being able to sort of express beauty and create its sort of own aesthetic moments through its culture and um, you know, as they move forward to the future, whether or not you feel like people are going to be more selective with digital or do you, do you think that, that people are going to start to sort of expand more?
Michael Spicher: Um, I [00:39:00] think people should be more selective with digital,
Jessica Quillin: Mhm.
Michael Spicher: what you, What you sort of said about, you know, it's all about content now is the problem with a lot of it is it's lacking in substance and it's just quantity over quality. And I think that's the biggest, to me, that's the, that's probably the biggest challenge of, of, of the digital world is that there is this need to constantly
put out content and, and people have grown to expect it, but partly because we played into that, you know, companies played into that. And so, uh, uh, and it probably would have happened, you know, some degree anyway, even if companies were resistant to it, like, so I don't, I don't know. I don't necessarily know how we could have, um, avoided it, but we, we expected it to be so much content that, uh, we, we, we don't have an appreciation for quality, but I do think this is one of the things that I think when we.
pander to that mentality, we just become one among many. But when we actually separate our content, it may happen slower I mean, that's the, that's the problem. I think businesses don't want that word anymore. Slow, but, uh, but. When we, um, someone, you know, gave an analogy years ago about something in some other context, but I think, I think it's appropriate here to like, if you take a feather and just blow at it, it goes pretty quickly.
Uh, then it just sort of stops and flows and falls. Whereas like a locomotive. Uh, I mean, the old locomotives, not necessarily the, you know, current trains, but it took a while to get going, but then once they were at speed, I mean, they were like unstoppable. And I think that's the, that's sort of [00:40:00] the difference that we need to, to, to work on here is, uh, people, I think, can weed through the junk.
We have to allow them to do that, though. And I think when we when we assume that our customers aren't very bright, um, it doesn't mean that we our business might not might be, you know, successful. But I think we, uh, I think what will really be a key. If I mean, that's, That's part of the idea of aesthetics in the first place is it's a key differentiator between businesses.
And so if you really put some thoughtful substance behind your, your aesthetics of your business. Um, I do think that, you know, like I said, it may happen a little slower, um, you know, all things considered, but, um, I think it ultimately be stronger. And your brand will have an authenticity that all the people that just keep jumping on the next bandwagon just aren't going to have.
Um, So it's a difference between like longevity and like the quick dollar. And where businesses tend. I mean, Sometimes it feels like businesses are just completely short sighted. I know that that's such a generalization. So I know that that's not 
Jessica Quillin: Preaching to the choir here. So no, I get that. No, but I think there's so much in what you say, I think, especially for luxury, because it goes with all I've [00:41:00] been saying about. You know, sort of the need to sort of We say over and over again in Fashion Strategy Weekly that, uh, brands focus on sort of the tactics for sort of short term content marketing.
And we get asked in every single workshop, how do I make my content go viral? And I'm like, do you want your content to go viral? Like it depends on what your goals are and it depends on what you're trying to do, who you're trying to communicate with. And, you know, we really try to drive home that every piece of content needs a why
and I, and I really love from your end, this notion of having an aesthetic strategy to marry with your brand strategy so that your brand strategy then has that sort of value based lens, because I think from that you can start to drive that quality content kind of down the line, you know, via that sort of content strategy framework.
So I, I think that's a very powerful thing. Before I get to my last question, I did have one question sort of on, we've spent a lot of time talking about brands. Um, and you mentioned the notion of sort of consumers themselves not having a lot of education about aesthetics. And I'm just wondering from your end, sort of what tools can, Well, I mean, how do you sort of start to educate consumers in terms of the value of aesthetics and place it as something that they, they, they should, um, you know, value because, you know, the everyday consumer, even the everyday [00:42:00] luxury consumer is
it's busy and they're going through this sort of noise of their everyday lives. And I think aesthetics is something at least sort of Western culture has sort of, uh, presented and educated as, as, as superfluous, right? It's, it's sort of that sort of, you know, uh, cherry on top of, you know, kind of experience new and, you know, I get this all the time because I worked in, I worked in opera for years and it's just sort of like the necessary unnecessary, which is obviously why we love luxury.
But I, For the ordinary consumer and not even talking luxury consumer, how do you sort of, how do you sort of, what value do you think there is in aesthetics education for, you know, sort of the everyday person? Um, and how do we start making that possible?
Michael Spicher: Yeah. I mean, I think this is where businesses really need to lead. And, uh, I think sometimes, like, I think sometimes we just,
Jessica Quillin: We assume we know what the customer wants and there's research to back
Michael Spicher: some of these things up. So, I mean, I don't mean to, I don't mean to sound like we're just making stuff up and, you know, uh, so there are, we, we have, we have some, We have research, but I think there are also people that The people that have truly innovated something.
I think, I think that's what we, what we need some business leaders to just do. And, uh, that's, that's one thing. The other thing I would say is take my workshop, but I think I think the thing is we need to stop, uh, and this is where I'm not really sure how we could get this out to the, the masses. Um, uh, it's part of, you know, It's part of my goal.
So, uh, I haven't figured out the, uh, the best way, uh, to, to reach everyone yet, but, um, but I think we need to stop. Well, I mean, I'm actually, let me rephrase it this way. I think things like Maslow's hierarchy of needs have have curbed our thinking in the wrong direction while I get it that Uh, do I need if i'm starving do I [00:43:00] need food or do I need to go to an art museum?
Okay, that's there's an obvious question there. Very rarely are those two things actually pitted against each other though. Um We should want people to flourish. We know, We know from studying, uh, despite what, uh, oppressive regimes may think to the contrary, we know from research that societies where, where most, where more people have a higher level of well being, uh, are better and part of our well being is, um, having access to positive aesthetic experiences.
We know this, uh, it's not, it's not a surprise anymore. And so I think, uh, that's the, I think that's the first step is is not treating beauty as something that is just added on to a, you know, once everything's going well. We know from, um, you know, I mean, one of my favorite stories is, uh, is, is, is about the need for aesthetics is, is comes from one of the most, maybe unexpected places.
Um, when Primo Levy was a prisoner in Auschwitz. He talks about, uh, him and his fellow prisoner one day had to walk across the camp to get the lunch for their, their group and while they're walking, he begins to recite Dante and he, he sees immediately that his, you know, his fellow prisoner had never read Dante.
So he gets even more excited to share this with them and he gets to a part where he can't remember this connecting line. And, uh, As he's going through this, he, you know, he, he, he, uh, he starts over again to try and like jog his memory. It just doesn't work. And he, he makes this bold claim that he's, he says, I would have given up my, my daily food just to remember this.
And this isn't, you know, this is a concentration camp. This isn't like skipping breakfast and, you know, gorging yourself on lunch. This is, you know, this is it. And so, People might wonder, well, that seems, that doesn't go with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like you need food, you don't need poetry. And he says, the reason why he would do it is, uh, he says this in his book, if this is a man is because for a few moments, he forgot who he was and where he was.
And so the importance of aesthetics, even in these like even for a few brief moments are absolutely crucial. And I think, you know, that's, that could have been the key to him surviving, um, in that horrible situation, uh, where we're in, you know, so I, I, it's not to say that, you know, anyone who didn't survive because they didn't recite poetry.
It's just, but, uh, I do think we need, uh, when, When life gets really difficult, people often turn to things like, like [00:44:00] pleasing experiences, um, to help them through it. Uh, And often they, it corresponds with some aspect of aesthetics.
Jessica Quillin: No, I love that. And I think there's so much in the power of aesthetics and self identification and in all of that sort of, um, pulling you out of the darkness. Um, so no, that that's that's wonderful. Um, and I realize we are way over time. So I have one final question, which is just what advice would you give to emerging brands looking to use aesthetics and
you know, digital forms of expression to establish both authenticity and exclusivity and storytelling because we've talked a lot about big brands. And I think there's sort of a space for people who are sort of just starting out and want to do things, um, you know, differently. And to really, I think, be, well, truly expressive, but also, I think, use some of those sort of basic principles of aesthetics for business that you've been talking about.
So any advice? Silence.
Michael Spicher: think it clearly relates. Um, it's from the design from like, just sort of the, like the more generic version notion of design. A lot of designers think of aesthetics as making something pretty. So you, So you make it work, you spend all your energy doing that.
And then you just sort of slap some aesthetics onto it. I think that is the absolute wrong strategy. And there's a company in Charlotte, North Carolina called the bolt group that I discovered in doing some research on, on like aesthetics and [00:45:00] product design and such. And they basically, uh, on their website, they have several articles saying you need to consider aesthetics day one.
Uh, and I, so I think, I think developing, um, you know, an aesthetics strategy, um, as part of your identity when you're developing and having as part of the, the, um, you know, the, the earliest conversations is absolutely crucial. How do you want your aesthetics to be? And I can, I can do another, uh, you know, another comparison with individual.
Um, We often think of, as individuals, we often think of our aesthetic taste as very passive. Like, I just like this music. I just like this movie. I just like this color, you know, and there is an element of that. Clearly, like you, you happen to just come across a song, you know, at a store and you just, you know, It just connect, you connect with it instantly, or you are in a museum and you just see a painting and just connect with it instantly.
So that does happen. But, uh, I think when we look at the comparison to, uh, uh, literal physical taste. If you put food in your mouth, you technically taste it, right? [00:46:00] But, uh, there are other things like a lot of, a lot of the drinks tend to fall under this category, coffee, wine, scotch. If you, When you learn how to actually taste them properly, uh, like at first people don't like, a lot of people don't like coffee at first, but then when they learn to, you know, really kind of understand the, the, the, the, the the taste of it, um, uh, when they, uh, or, or wine or scotch or, or, or foods, a lot of people don't really have a sensitivity to all the different ingredients in different food.
So you can develop this by being more actively engaged uh, as an individual. So I think the same thing applies to a company. If you're just starting out, you may not have it all figured out, but, but, but by ignoring it, uh, you know, you, you could be missing out on some much more powerful aesthetic component that you're, that you're, um, not considering.
So I would say. Making aesthetics part of your identity from day one, uh, not and it's more than just your, your logo and your color scheme. I mean, there's a lot more to it committing to, uh, telling story, telling your story, but also committing one of the things about story that we didn't mention is [00:47:00] we often think of stories when it comes to brands as like, what is their history?
What is their mission? And, and, and those are all important things, but each employee has their own story. Okay. And, and they're all equally important. Uh, so someone that's been at a company for 20 years versus the new employee, who's only been there maybe a year or two, they're going to have different stories and we need to, we need to give them time to, um, you know, to, to be able to, uh, and, and maybe the psychological safety to be able to kind of present their, their own stories of how, of the, of the company.
And I think, so I think, I think getting this well rounded approach to aesthetics. Right away is absolutely crucial for, uh, for your, for your future. I think.
Jessica Quillin: No, I love that. And look, as a content strategist, if, uh, design has no soul and appeal from a thing, it's because the content strategist was not involved because that's our job is to ensure that that design is infused with storytelling. But again, content strategy is not about defining those stories. And I think you are quite spot on that brands need that aesthetic framework to really capture.
You know, sort of the essence of that, um, you know, kind of aesthetic [00:48:00] value for their own company. Um, and I also love, you know, bringing in the employees and talking about the importance of that sort of internal voice and making sure that, you know, so much of what I think the interesting applications of everything we've been talking about for, uh, brands are also on that sort of company and culture side of things and creating a more positive place to work where it that inspire people to come every day in this sense of, you know, again, one of the reasons we do a lot of work on.
We do a lot of work on intranets. It's very boring kind of, you know, employee experience side of things. But as a content strategist coming into this, we're very much more than almost anything else concerned about it. What the culture is, what is the vision and goals behind, you know, this platform? What do we need to do for people?
What needs are we meeting? And, you know, how does the look and feel reflect that? And I think that whole sort of equation is what you're talking about as that sort of aesthetic strategy. And that becomes a very difficult process for us as, you know, content strategists to come in because this is something brands need to have sort of, predefined in the first place sort of as part of their brand matrix.
So, um, you know, I love the idea now of an aesthetic strategy as part of brand matrix design, because I feel like it's such a, it should be such a core part of your brand style guide. So, um, that was
Michael Spicher: Even think about, uh, When you're talking about work culture, think about the, uh, the extent of people working from home. Um, So imagine a company like would have a really beautiful building, but if everyone's working from home, who cares about that building anymore? So how do you, how do you maintain a good [00:49:00] employee work culture?
culture when people are in all these remote locations. And part of that is through story.
Jessica Quillin: Yeah.
Michael Spicher: Um, and they've even, uh, Even research has shown that, um, like, uh, well, research meaning, um, uh, interviewing, uh, executives who have made cultural changes at their jobs, it wasn't through data. It was through telling a story of, uh, and through storytelling and, uh, talking about, um, how, you know, different people have, um, I'm trying to get some of the examples right off the top of my head.
I wasn't, this wasn't something I had sort of planned on mentioning, but, but how, um, how people have, um, uh, telling, uh, stories of, uh, employee success. That's what I was trying to look at. Um, And that was more powerful than just saying, oh, if, If more, if nine out of 10 employees did X, then it would lead to X result.
No one that doesn't do anything for people. And we've noticed from science too, like science, um, a lot of scientists I've talked to have said that, you know, there's, there, uh, I said, I should say over the last, like 15 to 20 years, they've started, uh, well, one scientist I should say in particular said, um, you know, we started realizing what the humanities have known all along and the power of narrative, uh, if you just present the data of your science to the public.
It has almost no effect, but when you, when you just present it in the form of a story, um, and, and, and, and that's very much an aesthetic approach.
Jessica Quillin: Yep. So I'm going to give you a parting example of one of my favorite brands that does a lot of, uh, things that you're talking about. Um, I, I'm a runner, I run marathons, I'm [00:50:00] crazy, uh, but goodr, they make running sunglasses and they are, they, I mean, I don't work there, so I don't know, but from the outside looking in, it seems like such a fun place to work and it's a very.
It's a smallish brand, but every runner has those sunglasses. And because it's such a micro community, they do such a good job of making, I mean, they're all about story, right there. I mean, they have this flamingo who's their mascot and it's just a very happy, happy kind of very runner centric brand. Um, so if you're looking for brands that do that, um, they do that.
The other is, you know, we have a case study coming out that looks at Rafa. I realized they're having issues as well, but it's one for whom the sort of lore and, and. And journey of being a cyclist and that sort of narrative value are core to their identity and they very much have an entire sort of brand content strategy built around that ethos.
Case study coming out about that. But I think for everything you're saying, looking, look, I would look at sports as well, and I think it's for fashion luxury, it's such an interesting sort of place that fashion luxury brands can learn from because it's, it's small, but also because it's culture driven. I think those types of micro communities offer so many useful case studies as well.
I wanted to thank you so much for your time. Uh, cause we have run way over, but This was an amazing conversation. Um, so thank you so much.
Michael Spicher:  This is wonderful. 
Jessica Quillin + Bryce Quillin: Thank you for joining us for another great discussion as part of FSW Conversations. For deeper analysis and insights, please visit Fashion Strategy Weekly at fashionstrategyweekly.com, a media publication of strategy agency It's a Working Title. For questions, comments, and concerns, please [00:51:00] reach out to our media team at info@itsaworkingtitle.com. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all of your favorite podcasting platforms.