184 - What AI Can't Replace | Matthew Mottola

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Welcome to the Free Cities podcast. My name is Timothy Allen and this is the official podcast
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of the Free Cities Foundation.
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Hello and welcome to this episode number 184 of the Free Cities podcast.
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Yes, hello from a very hot United Kingdom.
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We're actually having a heat wave here, which is amazing, obviously.
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But for me, alas, I am in a darkened studio recording this.
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There's literally no windows in my studio.
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it's actually a former photographer's developing studio so it's basically designed to not let any
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light in and I can't be bothered to put a window in so whenever I sit in here it's pitch black if I
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want it to be anyway believe it or not as well today's my birthday and I'm in this dark studio
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with no windows um I'm not looking for sympathy it's not all bad the reason I'm doing this is
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because we've got our best of all best friends coming to stay with us this weekend from another
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part of the UK so I'm getting all my weekly stuff done Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday so that I can take
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Thursday, Friday and then the whole weekend off to enjoy some quality time with some of the most
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quality people in our lives. It's all worth it. This week on the show well I have an episode
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for the location independent workers amongst you and everyone else of course. Quick plug for the
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new search feature on freecities.fm in the commonly searched section if you go to search you'll see a
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button with nomads written on it that's my curated list of episodes related to digital nomadism flag
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theory and remote work etc of which obviously this episode will become a part of there's 19 episodes
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there at the moment related to this world and that will be growing over the next few months
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as I post interviews that I made at the Running Remote conference in Austin a few weeks ago.
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That's where this one comes from. Many thanks to Liam who runs it. I was lucky enough to be granted
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a prime spot right next to the stage where I was carrying out my off-the-cuff interviews with all
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the interesting people I could find. So these episodes will have a slightly different vibe
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to the norm there's obviously the background hum of the conference and a more pacey style i suppose
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as we were perched on stalls at a small table a few of the interviews came in at under half an
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hour as well so in those cases i'll probably be running them together in twos or threes
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let's see what happens this particular one was a full hour long so here it is in all its glory
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on its own. I'm speaking with a gentleman by the name of Matthew Mottola. He's a freelance
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economy specialist who was early at Gigster, helped build the Microsoft 365 freelance toolkit
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and co-authored The Human Cloud with HarperCollins, which is one of the definitive books
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on AI and the transformation of the freelance economy. He now runs Human Cloud, which is an
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aggregator of flexible talent platforms. Something in between Fiverr and Upwork, as he described
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more of that in the episode. This is actually a discussion, amongst other things, about the
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transformation of the working environment that we can all see happening around us. I think,
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personally, it's undeniable now that everything is changing in a major way. If it wasn't obvious
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to you during the COVID era, then I would say the AI era will probably ram the point home for you.
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In fact, about 10 minutes in, Matthew fairly casually tells me that, according to him,
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large companies spending over a billion on talent are looking at 40% layoffs, driven obviously by AI,
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mainly because it compresses about five jobs into one, something I'm pushing back on in the
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interview but to be honest he didn't budge and i would guess he knows a lot more than i do about it
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in other parts of the interview we get into ai automation of course uh in his case human cloud
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his company has a podcast which forms the backbone of the company's pr and outreach etc much like the
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Foundation does and he's quite amazingly automated 98% of its workflow using Claude.
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I'm amazed by that, not least because I don't trust AI that much and there's an interesting
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back and forth there about whether that kind of content actually wins long term. I'm not convinced
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it does as you probably hear me say a number of times on this pod however i'm fully aware i'm
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quite old school i do come from the analog world of media but i know that ai slop is everywhere now
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and there's certainly a backlash in me that started quite a long time ago and is now in
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full swing so make your own mind up about that one we also end up wandering into the world of
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cities of course the microsoft misclassification lawsuit and one that i often end up talking about
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university advice for those of you with kids it's the age-old question isn't it and i keep asking
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it is it worth going to university anymore anyway one thing to mention here this was actually my
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first time in Austin at a trade conference and oh my god was everybody talking about AI and I mean
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literally everyone was talking about AI it's quite obvious there's a bubble brewing here
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not sure what that means but so many people I spoke to were incredibly conservative when it
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came to predicting where all this is going everyone's talking about ai but the opinion is
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split on what this actually means i think i got about a 50 50 doom to not doom ratio the market
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is very split and we're certainly living in a very very very interesting timeline as i've
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mentioned to quite a few people since I got back. In Austin, I got more driverless Ubers than I did
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human controlled ones. So excuse my language, guys, but this shit is actually happening. There
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are going to be obviously lots of people losing their jobs over the next number of years. The
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question is, what will the market look like on the other side of all this? And that's where so
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many people are split i don't know what the answer is myself however i think we all need to try and
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position ourselves as best we can for the coming years and i hope interviews like this and the other
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ones i made in austin with people who are working at the front line of the change in the way we work
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will help you think about that for yourself and your family right veritas villages they're my lead
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sponsor they're building energy self-sufficient communities in latin america for freedom lovers
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like me like you like all of us and they've just released a fantastic community update video
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on their coronado site this is an excellent peek inside one of their new communities to see the
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process as it evolving you can see things like home construction progress the wellness and recreational concepts that they going to be applying soon the building of the new tilapia pond and much much
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more it's a youtube link i won't say it out here but look in the show notes and click on it if
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you're interested in veritas villages they have projects in other places costa rica panama nicaragua
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just go to our affiliate link www.veritasvillages.com forward slash free cities don't forget
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to say that we sent you but i do highly advise going to look at that video because it's hot off
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the presses and you can see what's actually going on there give you a good idea of whether or not
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you'd be interested in having a plan b option in a place like a veritas village or even
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a plan a option in these rather tumultuous times let's say right value for value
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top five who are you this week number one my og and on and on thank you number two christopher
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albanese many thanks christopher number three oh that's somebody new it looks like an ad but so
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what biomarkets hq thanks for the sats then set in stone number four and number five is the man like
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shadrach and comments this week tomex episode from last week getting a lot of love from everyone
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and on and on says thanks for the shout out that's it mate well you keep topping the list
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of donators so i'm going to shout you out and thanks for the sats again this week justin bianchi
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code they all loved the tomex episode christopher albanese said tomex did a great job with the last
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Bitcoin poker tournament and this episode has me pumped to come back for the conference in September.
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It's hard not to feel invigorated after a week in Prospera, even more than Bitcoin or AI. I hope
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history will judge Free Cities as the industry of the 21st century. I have to agree with you there,
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Christopher. I mean, I did a whole month in Prospera and it was by far the most productive
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month i've had in well i'd say living memory because i work from home here and
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and i can't remember when i got so much done i'm glad you liked it and looks like i'll be
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seeing you at the conference right aj thanks for the plug bayon markets hq thanks for the sats
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you're a big spender thank you very much indeed and finally how do you say that black or blv
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blvck blvck thank you for the sats right before we get into it don't forget as i mentioned just now
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www.freecitiesconference.com if you want to visit this year's free cities bash in prospera it will
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be the biggest event they've ever held obviously you won't want to miss that all the links and
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everything you could possibly want to know is in the show notes if you look closely enough
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including, I'll mention once again, because it really is good, the Veritas Village video,
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which is an update on the progress in their new Coronado village. Right, time to sit back and
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relax and enjoy my conversation with Matthew Mottola.
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I saw you talking to a friend of mine, so I came over and I butted in because he's normally
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got interesting friends.
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Very interesting friends.
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Yeah, right.
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So you better tell me who you are.
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Yeah, so Matthew Mottola, CEO of Human Cloud.
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We are a platform for flexible talent solutions.
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You think about the kind of OG freelance world, which was like a couple platforms, right?
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Upwork, Fiverr, Freelancer, you name it.
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Wow, you call that OG.
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Dude, I'm 54.
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That ain't OG.
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But anyway, go on.
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Technically, it goes back to 97.
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Okay, I remember it was Elance, Odesk.
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But so there's now a thousand plus of these solutions.
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And when we look at the world, we say, hey, it's going to become more flexible.
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What does that mean?
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Usually independent contractors, usually talent platform led.
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But there's thousands of these things.
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It's fragmented.
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Most of them aren't even here.
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And so we aggregate that so companies can go more flex, which not agency, not staffing,
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something in the middle.
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So an aggregator of platforms that offer work to freelancers.
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Yes, exactly.
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Okay.
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And the reason it matters, because why, who cares, right?
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Why have this middle layer?
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The scoping is where these platforms shine.
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So if I tell you, hey man, we want to do a Super Bowl ad, you think, okay, just a video.
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No, no, no.
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We're talking shooting.
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We're talking script.
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potentially five plus vendors, 100 plus contractors, our platforms are really good at doing that scoping.
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So you have, well, I'm thinking, like I say, I have, strictly speaking, I've been a freelancer
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my whole life. Even when I used to work in, I was like a news photographer and a newspaper when I was
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in my sort of twenties. I was a freelancer there. I never actually got a job.
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That was OG.
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Yeah, it was.
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You were OG.
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Well, and it was word of mouth. We got all our gigs by phoning someone up, a picture editor,
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you would have called them at the time. You phone them up on the desk and say,
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Hi, my name's Tim Allen. Can I show you my portfolio? And you go in and you have a meeting
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and they say yes. And then they talk to their mate and their mate. And that was crazy. But
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you're talking about things like Fiverr, Upwork. Next level. So Fiverr, Upwork are good for,
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let's say task-based, quick, and typically like a hundred bucks to a thousand bucks, right?
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But you're not going to give them $10 million.
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Oh, right. So there is a layer of freelancers that, and what's that layer called? The rich
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freelancer.
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Think about it now. We'll go boring. Think about it as professional service, right? So if you want
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to spend 500 to 5 million, you go to Deloitte. If you want to have an ad campaign, you go to an ad
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agency. If you want software development, you go to Accenture, right? It's the layer before that,
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that says, hey, this is definitely a multi-freelancer or multi-individual thing.
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This is not a quick task. This is not a quick landing page. This is a big engagement.
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And you used the example earlier of a Super Bowl ad. Is a lot of it media stuff then?
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Yes. Yes. So at Microsoft, which is my background, I was Gigster, Microsoft, now Human Cloud.
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Around 79% of it was creative. And think about it, it's because it's easy to scope and be outcome
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based. So you would literally say, right, I want to, well, let's use the Superbowl ad as an example.
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You, you, you, is it like Fiverr where you sort of like put your, I want this on, on the site and
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then a bunch of freelancers reply to it or not? No, no, no. I was going to say, not for that kind
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of money. No, no. Because so think about in the middle, right? Think professional service firm,
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think a staffing firm. Staffing firm is Fiverr if you replicate that. So staffing firm goes,
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oh, you want Super Bowl campaign? Here's a thousand resumes and you as the CMO or marketing
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manager. I don't want that. I don't care. Right. Agency or professional services firm is the
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opposite. Is okay. You have a problem. Want to get a Super Bowl campaign done. We'll do all of it
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for you. Problem is they'll do it for maybe $30 million. The thing they sell you, they don't have
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the people who actually did it on the project. In the middle is where we sit. So you have these
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flexible talent solutions that have the exact people who did the exact project beforehand.
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So you don't have to worry about, okay, we're going to get a bunch of fluff. We're going to
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get a bunch of scope creep, a bunch of agencies creep, but we're also not going to get that
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staffing experience. But who is on the platform? Is it someone who's in charge of a team of people?
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Say someone who's already done an ad, say they did an Uber ad. So why aren't they working at
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agencies? That's what I don't understand. Yes, there's an inevitable question because the agencies
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are actually hiring freelancers, they just don't tell you. Because if you look at what
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an agency work is someone wins it someone does the work And if you look at the agency structure it was typically full led but increasingly full employees are not the ones who are the best at X skill X being say something like digital growth growth campaigns video
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production, you, right? You are not going to go work at an agency. I need to access you. And so
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these flexible talent solutions are really good at leveraging digital networks rather than having
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to have a bunch of full times on their book. And do you find that people are sort of agencies
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growing up on your site, so to speak.
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Yeah, it would make sense.
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So what we see, because it's such a good,
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so in a perfect world, we're all full-time employees
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or we're all agencies, right?
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That would make life so much easier.
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The best freelance platforms are like 20 to 50 full-time employees
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per every 1,000 to 5,000 freelancers.
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So it's not an absolute, right?
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It's not all full-time employees, not all agencies,
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but it's re-balancing that equation where for only, let's say,
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one full-time employee, you have 100 contractors. They're just resetting that equation.
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Right. So they are companies on there. They're not individuals who say like, this is how it used
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to work when I was young, right? Because I worked in the ad world as well. I had an agent, used to
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get me jobs, really well paid. And I, as the director, used to pull in my favorite people,
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basically. Right. Now, if I was to go on your platform, I'd do it exactly the same way. I'd go
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in on your platform as me. I might invent a name for my company, even though it's just me.
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And if you said, if I was pitching for one of your Super Bowl ads, I would show you my resume
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and it would be because I know all these people that want to work for me. Is that kind of how it
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works? Kind of. Right. Kind of. So what you'd see is you would say, okay, Super Bowl campaign,
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And let's get it done.
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What we would say is let's focus on the capabilities.
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Now, this is where things get different, meaning different,
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like last week and next week might be different.
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To me, a capability is an agent, a skill set, or an outcome.
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So the skill set is something like, well,
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we need a JavaScript developer.
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We need a Descript, meaning like a video automation platform.
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An agent is give us this agent.
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And so what you would do is you'd come to us,
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and we would say, OK, there's five solutions
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that seem to fit your goal.
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This solution, which is a talent platform, would say, okay, we want to get a Super Bowl campaign done.
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Let's talk about you at the most hyper-specialized level, and let's place the exact people.
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So your book, right?
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These flexible talent solutions, they're just better at leveraging that book.
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So they would say, you know, your first name was Dave.
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They would say, hey, this is Dave.
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Dave's done these 500 projects with companies just like you, and we're going to place Dave on your project,
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but will also help scope it out so that you don't have to worry about, you know,
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all the milestones and SOW creation.
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Right. So the bits I wasn't an expert in.
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So my cameraman, I could still pick.
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But the guy that did the graphics or wrote the code for something we need.
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Okay. Right. I understand. I understand. Right.
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Can we broaden the topic then and go a little bit on to...
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I mean, it's the essence of what you're talking about is remote work as well, isn't it?
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There's no such thing.
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It is pure remote work.
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Yep.
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I break a tone.
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I call it the transition.
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And what I mean by this is there's a transition happening and there's a flip.
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And the transition, I would argue, is from full-time default to flexible default.
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And it doesn't mean everything to freelance at all or everything to remote.
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It simply means work is becoming more flexible because technology is making it easier to be
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efficient.
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And so the transition is, hey, I have 100 full-time employees.
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let's lay off 40 right now we're seeing across most large companies let's lay off 40 percent
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really is that happening 10 to 40 percent easily i heard someone on stage recently like this morning
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saying we're not laying anyone off i thought she was lying as well that was a she wasn't he
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you reckon 40 percent yeah minimum why not minimum i wouldn't say minimum i'm gonna say
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for full-time employees that spend over a billion on talent, I'm saying there's going to be 40%
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layoffs. And they might say only 10, but in reality, they're recalibrating easily up to 40.
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All right. Going back to what you were saying, were you saying a company would
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restructure itself by knocking off the 40% and then appearing on your platforms,
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so to speak, as a company with 40% less people? Yes.
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And then the people that they're missing, you fill in the gaps.
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Yes.
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And what we're seeing, especially in the past two months,
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so it was Disney and it was, there was one other company,
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direct marketing layoffs.
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And then we were seeing this spike on our site,
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meaning marketing related inquiries was up like 140%.
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At the same time, we were seeing layoffs happen across the industry
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directly in marketing departments.
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Wow, 40%.
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It's funny, I'm having mixed conversations about AI.
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You're number seven today and I would say, let's look in at these now.
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I'd say it was pretty 50-50, doom and the opposite of doom.
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What's the opposite of doom?
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Gloom.
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No, gloom is...
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That's doom and gloom.
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Never mind.
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Well, there it is.
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Happy.
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Happy, yeah.
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It's 50% good, 50% bad.
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It's ending all our jobs.
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I'm saying it from a place of happy, but realizing that there's definitely some recalibration.
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So what I mean by this too, so if you look at a team, LinkedIn said it best, or Satya said it
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best about LinkedIn. The five jobs that used to mean front-end, back-end, PM, designer, and
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something else have now been scrunched into one called a builder. That means that now for every
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five roles, that's now just one role. Likewise, I think who was the, there was another one that I
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heard last week with block teams of 14 are now teams of six. So the reason I say 40% is it's
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really simple. You need less to do more. And of that, when you build up, you'd rather have it be
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specialized, outcome-based and elastic rather than having a bunch of full-time employees.
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Do you think that 40%, how much of that 40% of people are going to find other work? Do you think?
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I don't know. Don't ask me.
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Oh, shit.
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But this is what a lot of people are saying.
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And I think, well, I take that as meaning they're not.
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I wouldn't say that, but keep going, keep going.
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Well, because it does seem quite serious.
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Like, look, in my, I'm 54, right?
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In my experience of life, when people get dramatic and frantic,
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it's normally the time to stay calm because it's not going to happen.
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That's been my experience over the last 54 years.
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When people are screaming and shouting, you know, the world's about to collapse, it never does.
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So you don't need to worry.
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But with this, I'm starting to doubt my own thesis because some people are,
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well, they keep saying what you're saying.
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I don't know.
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Normally, people are quite happy to put their opinion out there and say, yeah, probably.
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But it's really, I don't know.
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And I don't know either.
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I've talked to a lot of people and I don't know.
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Like I was in, you know, I've had more Waymos there than I've had human driven cars, right?
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Since I've been in Austin.
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So I can conclude people who drive cars are probably going to go out of business slowly
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but surely.
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Right.
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So what can we say about...
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So let me pitch the happy.
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Actually, I'll give you the real doom, but then I'll give a happy spin, okay?
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I'm actually going to use you as the perfect example. So let me start with the Doom. So at Human Cloud, we were spending between five and 10 a month on production. Podcast, newsletter, media, all that. When we dug in, we automated 98% of it using Claude, but then integrating with different tools.
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Wait a minute.
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Yep.
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Because I know about producing media. Where did you streamline that much? Because you still have to produce the media, right?
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So the only thing that wasn't automated was this right here a
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Little bit of the scheduling at first but now actually that even getting replaced as in getting the guests in Yeah as in scheduling Yeah well you had an AI doing that We about we starting to we starting to And we lucky because we have most of the it all warm guests So we not having to go prospect but I tell you
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exactly what. So you and I record this right now, right? It kicks over to something like Riverside.
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Riverside does magic editing and then creates five to 10 highlight videos. Now, here's the funny
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part. We still have yet to figure out how to get Claude to talk to Riverside. So a human goes in
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and manually downloads.
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But then Claude, the skills we've built, comes in,
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goes to the download folder on the local machine,
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creates all the highlight videos,
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creates the actual podcast ready for production in megaphone.
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And then I still have to click schedule,
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but all of it's been created.
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Now it also creates an article.
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It also creates the emails to the guest,
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three of them saying, hey, I had a great time,
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and then week before.
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it also creates five to 15 of the highlight videos that Riverside had created. It puts them onto
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YouTube. It fills out the title, the description. So when you play this out, like this is invaluable,
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this will never get replaced, but all that other stuff is within reach. Now here's the happy side,
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right? Cause that's, that's really bad. Like that isn't bad. Not for me, isn't it? No, for you,
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it isn't. I mean, what you've just described, sorry to butt in, but you've described my workflow,
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except there's a few more times in mine where I have to put my hand in.
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There's lots of that that I haven't automated.
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Editing has automated.
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So has show notes, show has articles.
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But I'm still uploading articles.
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And I'm still, like, uploading the YouTube video.
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And I'm still sending that email by hand.
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And actually, personally, I'm not ready to give that up yet
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because AI is so sloppy.
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I hate getting AI emails and I hate looking at AI summaries of stuff already. And it's not been that
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long. So I've started stopping that and I've started writing bits myself and making it very
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obvious that it was me actually doing it. But anyway, go on. Now, I'll make that really scary.
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We actually have a slash human command and it's then implemented into our audit command that it
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now is trained to not look like an AI. And every two weeks, it's doing new research to figure out
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what an AI would do. Terrifying. But here's the happy picture. You, so I'll give you a cloud.
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We don't care if our podcast is as good as yours. We care that it's consistent,
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the guests are good. So we have a lot of leeway on stuff we can automate.
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What I just described to you, agencies and full-time employees are billing out 10 to 25k
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a month to do what we now do. And it's 98% automated. So that's the doom, right?
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Well, before you go on, for example, clips, right? So my podcast has clips. We have two a day across
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social media. I have to check every single one of them by hand for spelling mistakes, for just not
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getting the point, for all this kind of stuff. So that I'm not even prepared to give to an AI yet.
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the AI creates it. So the AI, I use Opus, one of the, you know, it creates all the things. I go
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into every one. I correct the spelling mistakes because it's bad with proper nouns. It says
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gonna instead of going to, and I can't seem to tell it to not. It's so badly done, you know,
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things like that. So I'm, I agree with that, that you can automate all this stuff, but how
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good do you want your sort of yes so here's the good okay so here's the so we gave the doom which
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is holy crap 98 of a twenty thousand dollar a month job just got automated by by us right and
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i didn't bring up how it's integrated into our newsletter and other things so even our newsletters
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and stuff are now automatically generated as well right beautiful flywheel but so here's the happy
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picture. When we were just spending, say, $20,000 a month, in absolute terms, that means nothing.
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In relative terms, meaning if your level of podcast delivers X number of customers or we
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can tie it to something, it's infinitely more valuable than it was prior. And another analogy
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I'll use is it used to be only one podcast episode a week. We now can have up to three.
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You probably could have one a day, to be honest, because it's just computation power.
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But so in my view, the talent equation, I guess we talked about it before, the ARR per employee is the highest it's ever been.
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That's terrifying for employees that aren't used to having an ARR associated with them.
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It's incredible for those that are okay with being tied to their impact, to their outcomes, to the actual end result of their ARR.
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Hmm, interesting, because I'm going to push back on that. But not to say that what you're saying
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is wrong, but that in my world, that may not work long term as a strategy. For example, I have one
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episode a week. In order to go up to two episodes a week, I would, because I do everything in person,
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I've chosen to do every episode in person, which is, as you know, a massive expense,
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a massive ball ache. I have to travel around the world. But I come from the world of filmmaking.
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I think this is important. And my long-term strategy is it should be this. And I suspect
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in the future, this will show up as a rare quality of a podcast. So I agree. You can put
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out three a week. You can put out one a day. But I'm already sick of AI. And I'm already sick of
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products and content and stuff, I suspect the curated, good, high-end bit of content might
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win out in the long run. I don't know. I don't know what you think about that. Because, you know,
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what I've realized, say, with the foundation that I work with, Free Cities Foundation,
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they basically can repurpose all of this stuff into so much content. Like you said,
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It can be a newsletter.
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Every conversation I have can be a news article.
383
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Yep.
384
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But we just pick one of the things you...
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Or two or five.
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We choose something you said.
387
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And this is great because what is the rare part of what's going on here?
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It's this.
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This is the one part that AI isn't doing.
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And it probably won't ever do because why would it?
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Why would it go out there looking to meet real people in real life
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when there's a guy or a girl that can actually do that?
393
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But it does seem to be the source of all this stuff.
394
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And I'm concerned about my own product that I don't want to dilute it too much with AI.
395
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That's my gut feeling on it.
396
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But then again, I'm old school.
397
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I come from the world of newspapers and magazines and nonsense like that from the past.
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So I hear you.
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I'm going to use an analogy of underwear versus a t-shirt.
400
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Underwear, I don't care.
401
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Can look however it wants.
402
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I just want the cheapest underwear bought on Amazon t-shirt until you get until you meet a lady in a club and then you
403
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So it's not a great analogy when you have to sort of strip in front of someone. That is true
404
00:32:18,694 --> 00:32:20,014
Well, I don't know what you're gonna say yet
405
00:32:20,014 --> 00:32:24,234
I was gonna say if as you know, my wife has yet to push back and so until she does
406
00:32:24,234 --> 00:32:26,734
I'm okay with the Amazon, right? You don't know what she's thinking secretly
407
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I think and this is what happens in in in business
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There's gonna be stuff that we're okay with being just maximally optimized
409
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and then there's going to be stuff that we want to be curated.
410
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I'll use even the analogy of a car, right?
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Like horses are now more valuable than they ever were.
412
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But with that said, I don't ride around on a horse, right?
413
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I use a car.
414
00:32:48,854 --> 00:32:51,514
I think that's similar to what's going to happen.
415
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I use the podcast analogy.
416
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It's good enough for what we need it.
417
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It's not good enough for being really, really, really, really good.
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But for what we need it for, it's good.
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What do you think then?
420
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which parts of the podcast workflow,
421
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and by that I mean,
422
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I'm including all these articles and sub stacks,
423
00:33:10,894 --> 00:33:13,434
reels, short clips, everything.
424
00:33:13,434 --> 00:33:15,714
Which part of that stack do you think
425
00:33:15,714 --> 00:33:18,614
people don't mind seeing an AI version?
426
00:33:18,614 --> 00:33:19,934
Phenomenal question.
427
00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:26,352
And I'll actually show you, so the intention or the core value prop that our podcast delivers for
428
00:33:26,352 --> 00:33:32,872
is trust. It's not the article. It's not even the presentation because we do it virtually
429
00:33:32,872 --> 00:33:40,472
intentional. For us, it's trust. Our listeners and our customers trust that if you're on our
430
00:33:40,472 --> 00:33:46,772
podcast, we've done the vetting and you're not, can I swear a little bit? So our guests are not
431
00:33:46,772 --> 00:33:52,072
full of shit. And we don't have prepared questions. So that's the part that is intangible,
432
00:33:52,072 --> 00:33:56,972
will never, ever, ever be replaced. If you want questions and to be full of shit, go to CNN or
433
00:33:56,972 --> 00:34:02,852
some sort of major, you know, major media. So that's intangible. As of now, everything else
434
00:34:02,852 --> 00:34:08,652
is all secondary to that. So the fact that we use, you know, a 98% automated production,
435
00:34:09,352 --> 00:34:14,692
you still trust the guest because it's the guest that's important and the trust that we vetted you,
436
00:34:14,692 --> 00:34:16,492
not everything else.
437
00:34:16,632 --> 00:34:19,092
But when I go on your sub stack
438
00:34:19,092 --> 00:34:22,192
and I see the hallmarks of ChatGPT
439
00:34:22,192 --> 00:34:23,732
and it pisses me off
440
00:34:23,732 --> 00:34:25,312
and I'm like...
441
00:34:25,312 --> 00:34:25,732
Then you'll hate it.
442
00:34:25,852 --> 00:34:26,892
I'm not reading this shit.
443
00:34:27,172 --> 00:34:28,012
No, but I do.
444
00:34:28,092 --> 00:34:28,672
I'm already...
445
00:34:28,672 --> 00:34:29,792
That's already happening to me.
446
00:34:30,092 --> 00:34:32,132
And like I was telling someone earlier today,
447
00:34:32,512 --> 00:34:35,312
I have had Claude do some of my show notes.
448
00:34:35,892 --> 00:34:38,152
And recently I've just been scrapping them
449
00:34:38,152 --> 00:34:39,352
because the way it writes it,
450
00:34:39,352 --> 00:34:40,412
it's just like, oh my God,
451
00:34:40,472 --> 00:34:42,912
that's such an AI way of explaining
452
00:34:42,912 --> 00:34:44,392
what this episode is about.
453
00:34:44,692 --> 00:34:46,392
And I'm now going against it.
454
00:34:46,452 --> 00:34:48,952
So I'm using it for structure sometimes.
455
00:34:49,752 --> 00:34:54,272
I used it the other day because I was re-interviewing a guest after four years.
456
00:34:54,892 --> 00:34:57,212
And I thought, I wonder what we said last time.
457
00:34:57,272 --> 00:34:58,472
I don't have to listen to the podcast.
458
00:34:58,892 --> 00:35:00,972
I just said, AI, what do we talk about?
459
00:35:01,072 --> 00:35:02,132
What should we talk about this time?
460
00:35:02,372 --> 00:35:02,932
Things like that.
461
00:35:02,952 --> 00:35:04,592
But I hardly ever come in with notes.
462
00:35:06,652 --> 00:35:08,092
There's a good conversation to be had there.
463
00:35:08,092 --> 00:35:13,272
But what I'm trying to say is the backlash in me, right?
464
00:35:13,272 --> 00:35:20,052
it might be because I'm an old fart and I'm 54 and I'm not young and AI native. I don't know.
465
00:35:20,112 --> 00:35:24,772
What do you think? When you will care about, so with us, you'll see the MDash. Well, no,
466
00:35:24,772 --> 00:35:29,032
you won't because we have the human agent, right? So you won't see the MDash. But what you care
467
00:35:29,032 --> 00:35:33,332
about is this, the conversation. You're going to be listening to our podcast while you're at the gym,
468
00:35:33,432 --> 00:35:37,252
while you're commuting. You're not going to be caring about MDashes. The second thing you're
469
00:35:37,252 --> 00:35:40,572
going to care about is the actual data we're talking about. So you're going to care about
470
00:35:40,572 --> 00:35:44,512
the fact that our founders who come on our podcast will be talking about their margins.
471
00:35:44,512 --> 00:35:49,752
We'll be talking about the business cases. The M-dashes, they don't care about. The comparable
472
00:35:49,752 --> 00:35:55,992
for us is Deloitte billing 500K or an expert network charging $2,000 an hour. So for us,
473
00:35:56,032 --> 00:36:00,992
it's just a different value prop. And that's why we're, I would say the M-dashes, you don't care
474
00:36:00,992 --> 00:36:04,392
as much because you're going to get the raw data on workforce intelligence.
475
00:36:04,912 --> 00:36:06,912
What is your podcast, by the way? I haven't even asked you.
476
00:36:06,992 --> 00:36:08,232
Human cloud. Just human cloud.
477
00:36:08,232 --> 00:36:08,792
Human cloud.
478
00:36:08,892 --> 00:36:09,792
And this is the thing.
479
00:36:09,892 --> 00:36:10,892
It's all tied.
480
00:36:11,192 --> 00:36:14,612
And this is where I think, you know, remember that term like think local?
481
00:36:15,552 --> 00:36:16,152
Act global.
482
00:36:16,172 --> 00:36:17,352
Was it act local, think whatever?
483
00:36:17,672 --> 00:36:18,632
Think global, act local.
484
00:36:18,832 --> 00:36:22,452
So I think what's happening is companies are having to have founder-led marketing.
485
00:36:23,052 --> 00:36:24,812
There's more channels than ever before.
486
00:36:24,812 --> 00:36:28,332
So that founder is going to hop on a podcast, going to do a good newsletter, whatever it is.
487
00:36:28,712 --> 00:36:33,072
So there's more channels, but the core value prop has never been more important.
488
00:36:33,332 --> 00:36:37,932
So for us, our core value prop is getting to the most efficient, flexible talent resource.
489
00:36:38,232 --> 00:36:43,672
to transition your company to be less full-time and more flexible. Everything else is secondary.
490
00:36:43,672 --> 00:36:48,632
So our podcast is getting you the data to transition from fixed to flexible.
491
00:36:48,632 --> 00:36:55,032
Something we discovered on this podcast, because originally it was purely funded by the Free
492
00:36:55,032 --> 00:37:00,872
Cities Foundation and it was basically to spread ideas of free cities and independent jurisdictions
493
00:37:00,872 --> 00:37:05,832
and stuff. What we actually discovered in the beginning, which probably is exactly what you're
494
00:37:05,832 --> 00:37:12,792
talking about was that it was a brilliant networking tool. We basically met everyone
495
00:37:12,792 --> 00:37:17,832
really quickly. And even people you probably couldn't get a meeting with were quite happy to
496
00:37:17,832 --> 00:37:27,272
sit down for longer on a podcast. So if I was starting a company now, one of my big hires would
497
00:37:27,272 --> 00:37:35,872
be a professional worker who can do the podcast really well. Because I see it now, it can be
498
00:37:35,872 --> 00:37:42,732
the source of so much marketing and anything you want, basically. But you need someone
499
00:37:42,732 --> 00:37:50,512
good to do it. Because a lot of people just can't do it. So you started your podcast,
500
00:37:50,512 --> 00:37:52,512
did you start your podcast for that same reason?
501
00:37:52,512 --> 00:37:58,612
Yes, but it was an extension. And I'll give you the evolution. So Gigster early, we're doing 100%
502
00:37:58,612 --> 00:38:03,292
custom software through the cloud, all remote networks, fall in love with that. Microsoft,
503
00:38:03,632 --> 00:38:08,312
let's get enterprises to fully embrace these freelance workforces. Exact opposite. Every
504
00:38:08,312 --> 00:38:12,472
enterprise is saying, hell no, we don't want to do that. So then I go and I publish a book because
505
00:38:12,472 --> 00:38:16,752
no one knows what freelance is called the human cloud, right? Published with HarperCollins and
506
00:38:16,752 --> 00:38:20,992
went through the traditional channels. Then as part of getting that book out, we met all these
507
00:38:20,992 --> 00:38:25,752
incredible people. Then what I learned was, have you used like GLG, AlphaSites, Tegas,
508
00:38:25,852 --> 00:38:31,852
these expert networks, they'll pay someone. So they will charge you a thousand to five thousand
509
00:38:31,852 --> 00:38:37,472
bucks an hour to talk to someone like me, to have a conversation over the phone where I just tell you
510
00:38:37,472 --> 00:38:42,392
what we did at Microsoft or what we see from clients. So we published this book,
511
00:38:42,432 --> 00:38:45,392
which is telling the stories to show that, Hey, the world's going flexible.
512
00:38:45,572 --> 00:38:49,972
We then meet these people who GLG would charge thousand to 3000 bucks an hour.
513
00:38:49,972 --> 00:38:50,852
What are they, an agency?
514
00:38:51,392 --> 00:38:52,152
An expert network.
515
00:38:52,772 --> 00:38:53,432
An expert network.
516
00:38:53,552 --> 00:38:53,972
Is that a thing?
517
00:38:54,192 --> 00:38:54,692
It's a thing.
518
00:38:54,972 --> 00:38:55,332
Right.
519
00:38:55,492 --> 00:38:55,972
It's a thing.
520
00:38:56,252 --> 00:38:57,172
I'm so old-fashioned.
521
00:38:57,172 --> 00:39:01,712
So then our podcast turned into all about transparency, which the core of our platform
522
00:39:01,712 --> 00:39:02,952
is about transparency, right?
523
00:39:02,992 --> 00:39:07,852
It's about getting data into the hands of people that Deloitte used to bill 500K to get
524
00:39:07,852 --> 00:39:08,432
that data for.
525
00:39:08,532 --> 00:39:11,212
But this is once after you'd started Human Cloud.
526
00:39:11,212 --> 00:39:12,952
So the podcast has only ever been...
527
00:39:12,952 --> 00:39:13,052
Right.
528
00:39:13,292 --> 00:39:14,352
So the podcast was first.
529
00:39:14,852 --> 00:39:15,892
And then the company started.
530
00:39:16,012 --> 00:39:16,792
And then the company started.
531
00:39:16,952 --> 00:39:18,632
That's what's happening to me, funnily enough.
532
00:39:18,712 --> 00:39:19,312
It's interesting.
533
00:39:19,312 --> 00:39:21,332
But anyway, that's a whole nother story.
534
00:39:21,432 --> 00:39:21,712
But anyway.
535
00:39:22,172 --> 00:39:26,272
And then the podcast we've had to navigate, which you probably have, you get 200 episodes
536
00:39:26,272 --> 00:39:29,332
and you go, oh, we've had every guest possible under the sun.
537
00:39:29,392 --> 00:39:30,072
What do we do now?
538
00:39:30,472 --> 00:39:31,532
Do we bring on the same guests?
539
00:39:31,672 --> 00:39:32,692
Do we expand?
540
00:39:33,132 --> 00:39:36,432
So for us, the podcast has kind of become this source of truth.
541
00:39:36,692 --> 00:39:40,952
In some ways, it's founder brand in terms of it's quirky in some ways.
542
00:39:41,192 --> 00:39:45,532
But then it's also a just way to extend everything we're already doing.
543
00:39:45,672 --> 00:39:47,972
So on our platform, we see who the best solutions are.
544
00:39:47,972 --> 00:39:52,632
we meet with the best solutions every quarter. And the podcast is more about highlighting the
545
00:39:52,632 --> 00:39:56,992
best on the platform because we have the data from the platform. Right. So it's all connected.
546
00:39:58,172 --> 00:40:03,792
Yeah. I don't have the problem of returning guests too much. I'm on episode, well, we're
547
00:40:03,792 --> 00:40:10,292
nearly 200 now. I do have returning guests though, because I think it's important to have them come
548
00:40:10,292 --> 00:40:16,372
on every now and then. There are news updates that need to happen. So, I mean, there's a few
549
00:40:16,372 --> 00:40:20,092
people that have been I think three the most I've ever had anyone on I think is three times
550
00:40:20,092 --> 00:40:26,692
because once a year I mean we've been going four years once a year we all meet at conferences or
551
00:40:26,692 --> 00:40:31,812
whatever and it's actually quite important to find out what's happening because I don't know
552
00:40:31,812 --> 00:40:37,072
about your industry but my industry is moving incredibly quickly and fast and evolving very
553
00:40:37,072 --> 00:40:43,052
fast so it's important to have I mean I even started doing news episodes recently every now
554
00:40:43,052 --> 00:40:47,792
and then if something happens that's obviously affecting the world I revolve in we turn it into
555
00:40:47,792 --> 00:40:54,512
a little bit of a new segment um but but I am what I'm grappling with currently is knowing
556
00:40:54,512 --> 00:41:02,712
I suppose what to do next because I haven't got enough time I'm at that funny point where
557
00:41:02,712 --> 00:41:09,692
I haven't got enough time to do too much more myself but I haven't got the inclination possibly
558
00:41:09,692 --> 00:41:13,032
to pay someone to come on and do it.
559
00:41:13,072 --> 00:41:13,732
If you see what I mean.
560
00:41:13,912 --> 00:41:14,772
I know exactly what you mean.
561
00:41:15,252 --> 00:41:16,832
It's a funny situation.
562
00:41:18,492 --> 00:41:19,652
Because we did the opposite.
563
00:41:19,992 --> 00:41:21,552
We paid too much for the podcast
564
00:41:21,552 --> 00:41:24,792
to then gut it and put the money towards the platform.
565
00:41:25,572 --> 00:41:27,892
But it all comes back.
566
00:41:28,152 --> 00:41:30,032
So if you need a solution on our platform,
567
00:41:30,192 --> 00:41:30,932
I'll pitch you after.
568
00:41:30,932 --> 00:41:32,812
But so for us,
569
00:41:33,192 --> 00:41:45,310
it all connected to the greater vision which is the transition to a flexible workforce We actually don want to be a podcast and a media brand but our industry is still so early that it needs those stories
570
00:41:45,490 --> 00:41:52,070
Think about Salesforce before the cloud was even trusted. Salesforce had to be category creation.
571
00:41:52,430 --> 00:41:56,830
So they spent two years doing the craziest marketing stints to get executives to just
572
00:41:56,830 --> 00:42:03,510
sign off on having CRM in the cloud. Our industry, at least, is still in that maturity.
573
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:09,630
Can I ask at Human Cloud, do you spend any money on marketing other than the podcast?
574
00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:10,430
Yes.
575
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:14,490
We used to spend 80% of our money on marketing.
576
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:17,730
We now spend around 60% of our money on marketing.
577
00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:20,330
Mostly in-person has the best ROI.
578
00:42:21,570 --> 00:42:21,850
But...
579
00:42:21,850 --> 00:42:22,090
Really?
580
00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:22,870
What do you mean?
581
00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:24,690
Like meeting someone at a conference?
582
00:42:24,970 --> 00:42:25,230
Yes.
583
00:42:25,530 --> 00:42:25,910
Absolutely.
584
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:26,610
Travel.
585
00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:31,190
In-person QBRs are by far the best investment.
586
00:42:31,210 --> 00:42:31,510
What's a QBR?
587
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:32,550
Quarterly business results.
588
00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:36,910
So you have a meeting, everyone comes, you tell them about blah, blah, blah.
589
00:42:37,050 --> 00:42:39,010
Tell them how great they've done or how bad they've done.
590
00:42:39,130 --> 00:42:41,490
Tell them where they can improve, but it's in person, right?
591
00:42:41,530 --> 00:42:42,750
So you have that experience.
592
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:50,570
The biggest thing we didn't expect with AI is our developer costs have not had to majority go into that.
593
00:42:50,990 --> 00:42:54,870
So typically as a founder, when you go raise, your last deck says,
594
00:42:54,990 --> 00:42:57,530
hey, we need this amount of money to do these three things.
595
00:42:58,010 --> 00:43:01,570
And like one through three is usually technical or developer led.
596
00:43:01,570 --> 00:43:08,710
it's now mostly distribution costs. So for us, we haven't had to invest in a large developer team,
597
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:13,850
which is new. This is new as in the last six months. But so yeah, so we majority spend on
598
00:43:13,850 --> 00:43:18,150
marketing. And we majority spend on buyers, to be honest, getting companies to understand
599
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:21,550
what this industry is, why they need it, because of our model.
600
00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:26,250
But what does the podcast come under? Because I would call it marketing, you see?
601
00:43:26,590 --> 00:43:28,910
I'd call it growth. Call it growth.
602
00:43:28,910 --> 00:43:29,530
Okay, okay.
603
00:43:29,530 --> 00:43:31,970
Because it's kind of sales, right?
604
00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:37,890
And this is where the core functions of a company are changing so much.
605
00:43:38,570 --> 00:43:39,210
Is it marketing?
606
00:43:39,350 --> 00:43:39,750
Is it sales?
607
00:43:39,850 --> 00:43:42,790
I personally, I get queasy about marketing.
608
00:43:43,050 --> 00:43:46,930
Because to me, marketing means you're going to sound good, but there's no tieable ROI to it.
609
00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:48,690
But I don't think...
610
00:43:48,690 --> 00:43:49,590
That's just a word.
611
00:43:50,070 --> 00:43:50,550
It's just a word.
612
00:43:50,970 --> 00:43:55,050
You and me talking now is marketing your company, for example.
613
00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:58,410
But you don't have to tell me about your company.
614
00:43:58,710 --> 00:43:59,490
You don't have to.
615
00:43:59,530 --> 00:44:02,870
I don't care about that side of it.
616
00:44:03,250 --> 00:44:05,090
I'm interested to find out who you are.
617
00:44:05,370 --> 00:44:08,530
But obviously, by finding out who you are, I find out what you do.
618
00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:13,590
So in a way, I'm not cynical about it like that.
619
00:44:14,250 --> 00:44:15,550
No, honestly, I mean it.
620
00:44:15,650 --> 00:44:15,990
I hear you.
621
00:44:16,010 --> 00:44:16,410
I mean it.
622
00:44:16,510 --> 00:44:19,930
I would say if your company's good, then it gets marketed.
623
00:44:20,610 --> 00:44:24,290
And I would say if you have a podcast where you interview everyone from your industry
624
00:44:24,290 --> 00:44:26,710
and it's called the same name as your company,
625
00:44:27,470 --> 00:44:29,050
I would say that's brilliant marketing.
626
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:35,050
And I would say that's the best marketing because you're basically getting to sit down at the table with anyone you want in your industry.
627
00:44:35,150 --> 00:44:37,950
And I think we were talking earlier off camera.
628
00:44:38,850 --> 00:44:46,530
The kind of remote work world, the kind of flexible work world doesn't really have an outlet, a media outlet.
629
00:44:46,750 --> 00:44:47,770
It's really interesting.
630
00:44:47,950 --> 00:44:51,410
I've gone through this process with the Free Cities movement that I'm in.
631
00:44:52,130 --> 00:44:53,530
I'm that now.
632
00:44:53,630 --> 00:44:54,790
So I have become that.
633
00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:57,930
And I didn't think about it much at the start.
634
00:44:57,930 --> 00:45:04,490
but in the last year it's become really obvious oh right and and that's made me want to grow it
635
00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:10,990
then it gave me a kick up made me think oh yeah someone's got to do this uh you know and i feel
636
00:45:10,990 --> 00:45:15,910
and you feel in a slightly privileged point because sooner or later someone else is going
637
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:21,390
to do it as the industry grows why the hell has the remote workspace not got one because
638
00:45:21,390 --> 00:45:28,750
it's a really big business, right? Yeah. I don't exactly know, but I can confirm what you're
639
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:35,970
saying. And for me, it's been as early as 2012 I've been in the space. I'll speak from the
640
00:45:35,970 --> 00:45:41,870
freelance side. Freelance had a moment. We've had about three moments. We had a moment in the
641
00:45:41,870 --> 00:45:47,290
Elance ODesk merger, which created Upwork. We had a moment 2018, 2019, Upwork went public,
642
00:45:47,290 --> 00:45:53,570
Fiverr went public. We then had the COVID moment where both remote and freelance did. Now, last
643
00:45:53,570 --> 00:45:58,710
year, I can say that it was a terrible year for a lot of the freelance related companies. And right
644
00:45:58,710 --> 00:46:04,990
now, the term freelance is more associated with an individual who's working for themselves. And
645
00:46:04,990 --> 00:46:11,430
it's more of a lifestyle thing, not a embedded corporate infrastructure. For us, I think the
646
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:17,350
reason is when you go into it and I'm going to say mid to large enterprise, you don't have a chief
647
00:46:17,350 --> 00:46:22,990
freelance officer. So because of that, you don't have a dedicated budget because of that, you don't
648
00:46:22,990 --> 00:46:29,030
have things funding a media channel or something of that nature. To me, the core reason is remote
649
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:36,010
work and freelance. They're not the core technology. They're simply accelerants to what's already going
650
00:46:36,010 --> 00:46:41,850
to happen because of other technologies. So like, what is like freelance? What the hell is it? Right?
651
00:46:41,870 --> 00:46:47,390
And who cares about it? It's literally just a contract that says I choose to work as an
652
00:46:47,390 --> 00:46:52,670
independent contractor. And in hopes that means the government's not going to sue you employer for
653
00:46:52,670 --> 00:46:57,910
not paying my benefits and taxes, because I've chosen to be an independent contractor. Now,
654
00:46:58,050 --> 00:47:01,950
you can't have an industry called the independent contractor industry because it's boring,
655
00:47:01,950 --> 00:47:07,630
right? Freelance sounds sexy and it did sound sexy for a while, but it's still not the core
656
00:47:07,630 --> 00:47:12,290
driver, which is, hey, individuals want to work for themselves and companies want to hire people
657
00:47:12,290 --> 00:47:17,330
for their outcomes, not in a perpetual full-time employment contract. So that's why I think is
658
00:47:17,330 --> 00:47:22,670
because there's not that embedded institutional structure that then has downstream effects of
659
00:47:22,670 --> 00:47:27,890
what creates a typical industry. Look at Salesforce, they have Dreamforce, right? Because they had a
660
00:47:27,890 --> 00:47:31,790
company that was so successful that they could rent out a whole city to have a conference
661
00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:37,430
related to it. HubSpot, another one. They have their HubSpot conference in Boston. Hell of a time.
662
00:47:37,970 --> 00:47:42,770
There's been no company that's been large enough to foot the bill for like a dream force or
663
00:47:42,770 --> 00:47:48,790
something of that nature. So why to me, those are the core components of it. Upwork and Fiverr have
664
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:54,670
been successful. They're not renting out a whole city to create a conference. So I was just about
665
00:47:54,670 --> 00:48:01,990
to say, I think if your industry has a conference, you should have a media group or conglomerate as
666
00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:08,790
well. And I think, I mean, running remote is a remote work, freelance work, digital nomad type
667
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:14,970
conference. So it should have, I'm surprised. I'm surprised. I mean, we cover it. I probably do,
668
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:22,890
I don't know, 10% of my episodes are about working this kind of stuff because it's relevant,
669
00:48:22,890 --> 00:48:26,930
because a lot of our listeners are thinking about moving jurisdictions, about being in different
670
00:48:26,930 --> 00:48:32,490
places and who treats you best, where do you pay less tax, where can I optimize my life, you know.
671
00:48:33,330 --> 00:48:36,210
But yeah, maybe I should move into that a little bit more.
672
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:38,830
Will there be a free city conference?
673
00:48:39,210 --> 00:48:39,550
Yes.
674
00:48:39,890 --> 00:48:41,530
When, where, and can I come?
675
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:42,430
Of course you can.
676
00:48:42,850 --> 00:48:47,330
Well, it's in Honduras on the 3rd to the 6th of September this year.
677
00:48:47,530 --> 00:48:48,030
Great plug.
678
00:48:48,610 --> 00:48:50,070
It's our fifth conference.
679
00:48:50,070 --> 00:49:07,790
So we've had, well, let me think, four. Actually, is it the sixth? The first two conferences were a bit like private only kind of thing. But then we've had, I think we've had four in at least in Prague. And this year, for the first time, we're going to an actual free city. Prospera. I think you know about Prospera, don't you? You know what it is?
680
00:49:07,790 --> 00:49:16,990
Oh, tell me more. Prosper is an actual free city in Honduras. It got regulatory autonomy from a
681
00:49:16,990 --> 00:49:24,110
change in the Honduras constitution a number of years ago. So lots of biotech firms are going
682
00:49:24,110 --> 00:49:29,710
there. Fringe industries are moving there. You can live there. You get all the tax benefits of
683
00:49:29,710 --> 00:49:33,390
living there. You can start your company there. I've just lived there for a month. I came from
684
00:49:33,390 --> 00:49:38,270
there to here. Gonzalo is living there. You know Gonzalo. He's living there at the moment.
685
00:49:39,710 --> 00:49:48,830
So, yes, we're having a conference. But going back to what I was saying about this space,
686
00:49:49,390 --> 00:50:05,328
it seems like there should be something a little bit more substantial to cover the space to be the media outlet I wondering whether what you do is or are you not specific enough Who do you interview on your pod
687
00:50:05,528 --> 00:50:07,248
So we interview, it's a really good question.
688
00:50:07,608 --> 00:50:12,168
We interview the best executives for talent platforms.
689
00:50:12,488 --> 00:50:15,208
There's thousands of them, and we interview the executives.
690
00:50:15,528 --> 00:50:20,808
So talent platforms, though, that would be very separate from, say, the world of digital nomads.
691
00:50:20,968 --> 00:50:22,768
They're not on talent platforms.
692
00:50:22,768 --> 00:50:26,908
And the answer I have, which is, this is me being too transparent as a founder.
693
00:50:27,328 --> 00:50:28,768
There's not enough money on the individuals.
694
00:50:29,068 --> 00:50:36,068
So my prior company, it was actually an operating system for freelancers to run their business, build their business.
695
00:50:36,368 --> 00:50:39,408
And to put it blunt, there's just not that much money in that industry.
696
00:50:39,788 --> 00:50:39,908
Right.
697
00:50:40,048 --> 00:50:42,348
There's enough for like taxes.
698
00:50:42,528 --> 00:50:46,368
So there's like collective and others that do solopreneur taxes and finances.
699
00:50:46,368 --> 00:50:53,368
but in terms of the, you know, as a group, the individual freelancer segment is massive,
700
00:50:53,368 --> 00:50:59,888
but I don't know if we want to get too geeky, the actual GDP discretionary income is not that high.
701
00:51:00,028 --> 00:51:06,368
Whereas there's over 140,000 staffing firms predominantly making between 10 and 30 million
702
00:51:06,368 --> 00:51:11,588
a year. And there's five that are really, really huge. So the staffing industry is huge. The
703
00:51:11,588 --> 00:51:17,188
solution layer is huge. We specialize in getting the better solutions. So you come to Human Cloud
704
00:51:17,188 --> 00:51:22,588
to find the best solutions, not to find the best freelancers, individuals, because our belief is
705
00:51:22,588 --> 00:51:30,008
the scoping is so damn hard. You're going to need these solutions. Now, back to your, which I'm kind
706
00:51:30,008 --> 00:51:35,888
of forgetting now, but your question related to the media. Yes. So here's the contradiction we have.
707
00:51:35,888 --> 00:51:43,248
when we do best, and I'm speaking for the industry, when the flexible talent industry does best,
708
00:51:43,808 --> 00:51:49,408
nobody knows who we are. And it's like, it's like missed. It's like nobody knows that we're even
709
00:51:49,408 --> 00:51:54,928
there. And that's the point. The goal is not everyone to know about freelance flexible work.
710
00:51:55,008 --> 00:52:00,508
The goal is for the CMO to create the most amount of pipeline or views they've ever created
711
00:52:00,508 --> 00:52:05,648
because flexible talent enabled them to build out the campaigns, the Super Bowl ads that enabled
712
00:52:05,648 --> 00:52:10,688
that to happen. So we have an inherent contradiction in that we succeed when nobody knows about
713
00:52:10,688 --> 00:52:14,848
us, which from a media perspective creates a nightmare because the best leaders don't
714
00:52:14,848 --> 00:52:19,888
want to talk about it. They simply want to be the best CTO, CMO, COO, CPO, whatever it is.
715
00:52:20,148 --> 00:52:26,168
Is that true? I thought, Diary of a CEO, things like that. I thought CEOs love
716
00:52:26,168 --> 00:52:29,848
blowing their own trumpet. They do, but they don't want to talk about our world,
717
00:52:30,028 --> 00:52:34,988
right? They want to talk about their own company. They don't want to say, hey, I'll ask you this.
718
00:52:34,988 --> 00:52:37,608
hey, how'd you create the best podcast in the world?
719
00:52:38,128 --> 00:52:39,448
Well, other people did the work.
720
00:52:40,288 --> 00:52:40,388
Right.
721
00:52:40,828 --> 00:52:41,088
Right?
722
00:52:41,288 --> 00:52:42,388
How'd you create the best?
723
00:52:42,528 --> 00:52:43,488
Let's just look around.
724
00:52:43,628 --> 00:52:45,888
How'd you create the best operating system?
725
00:52:46,388 --> 00:52:48,748
Oh, actually, we had the best freelancers.
726
00:52:50,488 --> 00:52:52,248
It's a secondary point, right?
727
00:52:52,268 --> 00:52:56,548
It's not the core driver of what the best companies want to talk about.
728
00:52:56,548 --> 00:52:59,068
But you are speaking to your client base.
729
00:52:59,068 --> 00:53:06,548
like like i i wouldn't if you are in a world of freelancers i would say you know they're not a
730
00:53:06,548 --> 00:53:10,448
disparate well they are quite a disparate bunch actually you know well no do you know what i mean
731
00:53:10,448 --> 00:53:17,288
they're not connected necessarily this is a core problem so i've i've learned in entrepreneurship
732
00:53:17,288 --> 00:53:24,008
it's easier to identify what you need and tell you what you need in your language rather than to
733
00:53:24,008 --> 00:53:28,828
try to define to you what i think you need and have you believe my world i don't want to do that
734
00:53:28,828 --> 00:53:33,188
I want to identify your problem and I want to give you a solution that you don't have to even learn.
735
00:53:33,328 --> 00:53:34,868
It just solves it for you, right?
736
00:53:36,028 --> 00:53:40,008
Freelance is very inherent to what most leaders want.
737
00:53:40,408 --> 00:53:47,328
Most leaders want a loyal bunch of strong outcomes and a workforce that when they say, is it done?
738
00:53:47,368 --> 00:53:48,128
The answer is yes.
739
00:53:49,288 --> 00:53:53,288
Freelance, historically, and there's been some books that kind of ruined this.
740
00:53:53,868 --> 00:53:56,388
They brag about being on a beach, right?
741
00:53:56,468 --> 00:53:57,568
Working hour four hours a week.
742
00:53:57,568 --> 00:54:00,988
no executive wants to hear that, right?
743
00:54:01,028 --> 00:54:02,208
Executive wants to hear that
744
00:54:02,208 --> 00:54:04,248
it was the best ever campaign done
745
00:54:04,248 --> 00:54:05,708
on time, on budget, right?
746
00:54:05,968 --> 00:54:07,268
Now the best freelancers
747
00:54:07,268 --> 00:54:09,848
are the ones that are on time, on budget
748
00:54:09,848 --> 00:54:11,328
and usually not talking about it.
749
00:54:11,408 --> 00:54:12,588
So there's the contradiction there.
750
00:54:12,788 --> 00:54:14,168
The last thing I'll bring up is
751
00:54:14,168 --> 00:54:16,928
and this is very related to you.
752
00:54:17,448 --> 00:54:19,428
If you can figure out a way
753
00:54:19,428 --> 00:54:22,208
to make independent contracting work
754
00:54:22,208 --> 00:54:25,348
free, fair
755
00:54:25,348 --> 00:54:31,988
and predictable in that governments aren't going to sue me, then we would have a much easier world.
756
00:54:31,988 --> 00:54:37,228
The reality is if I go hire, let's say a thousand freelancers and I pay them over
757
00:54:37,228 --> 00:54:41,168
a hundred million dollars, most governments are going to come back to me as a company
758
00:54:41,168 --> 00:54:46,088
and try to make sure I paid my taxes and get me for misclassification.
759
00:54:46,608 --> 00:54:53,348
So there's also a lot of legal risk that is so boring that also exposes companies and companies
760
00:54:53,348 --> 00:54:58,228
don't want to talk about it. Kind of like they don't let you know that they actually are staffed
761
00:54:58,228 --> 00:55:04,408
by over half contractors. Like Google doesn't show off their 60% contractors. They don't have
762
00:55:04,408 --> 00:55:11,628
ads talking about that. I suppose the interest I have in it is in the freedom aspect. And this is
763
00:55:11,628 --> 00:55:17,548
why I've always been a freelancer. I've never had a job, so to speak. I've always worked for myself
764
00:55:17,548 --> 00:55:23,388
because, and that doesn't mean I necessarily dropped, you know, left at the drop of a hat.
765
00:55:23,428 --> 00:55:26,488
I don't think I ever did that. I was a very loyal, I'm always a very loyal employee,
766
00:55:26,488 --> 00:55:32,188
so to speak, but never as an employee, but as a freelancer. So that's my interest in it. And
767
00:55:32,188 --> 00:55:38,528
the outcomes that kind of help show that that's a good outcome, that's what I'm interested in.
768
00:55:38,748 --> 00:55:45,668
Same with digital nomads. I like digital nomadism because it allows people to find the best place,
769
00:55:45,668 --> 00:55:50,948
to get the best life and hopefully still do what they want to do. I like freelancers because
770
00:55:50,948 --> 00:55:57,788
similar reasons. It gives them the flexibility to say yes or no if they want, but it gives them
771
00:55:57,788 --> 00:56:04,048
that freedom. So that would be my take on it, really. And I agree with you what the company
772
00:56:04,048 --> 00:56:09,368
wants to hear and what the reason. So I match both worlds, right? Because I started freelancing,
773
00:56:09,488 --> 00:56:14,348
right? I fell in love with this concept of it. And what is best for the company and the individual,
774
00:56:14,348 --> 00:56:20,468
you are so good that you're willing to work based off your outcomes and you're willing to allow that
775
00:56:20,468 --> 00:56:25,768
employer to fire you whenever they want rather than having to worry about severance and all the
776
00:56:25,768 --> 00:56:31,028
things that can get them in trouble. So you are so good that you're willing to put your employment
777
00:56:31,028 --> 00:56:35,968
on the line to not take what I just call is a perpetuity contract or a permanent contract.
778
00:56:36,508 --> 00:56:41,788
And that's because you're so good. Now there's a lot of connotations, right? So if we're talking
779
00:56:41,788 --> 00:56:47,628
about freelance because I get to work whenever I want with who I want. True. But the reality is,
780
00:56:47,688 --> 00:56:51,908
it's also because you're so good that you'll commit to the outcomes. Yes, I do agree with that.
781
00:56:52,188 --> 00:56:58,928
Not that I'm saying I'm so good, but that it's a free market of work. And I like that. Yes. Because
782
00:56:58,928 --> 00:57:05,408
I feel competitive. If I didn't feel competitive, I would probably want to get a job where I could
783
00:57:05,408 --> 00:57:10,888
lock it in forever. But I wouldn't want to employ someone on those terms necessarily anyway.
784
00:57:11,168 --> 00:57:11,528
Exactly.
785
00:57:11,668 --> 00:57:13,348
I mean, it's one of the flaws in the system.
786
00:57:13,448 --> 00:57:15,748
But it's been easier to do that, right?
787
00:57:15,788 --> 00:57:20,708
It's been easier to say, hey, I would rather have a team of 100 people that I can just go,
788
00:57:20,788 --> 00:57:21,408
did you do this?
789
00:57:21,408 --> 00:57:24,748
And I know they'll do what I say, even though they'll only do 10% of what I say,
790
00:57:24,788 --> 00:57:27,368
rather than having to go, okay, I need to get something done.
791
00:57:27,808 --> 00:57:31,688
Let me fish out in the free market and have to worry about this person who's going to say yes
792
00:57:31,688 --> 00:57:32,408
or no, potentially.
793
00:57:32,868 --> 00:57:34,448
Now, it's not that difficult.
794
00:57:34,628 --> 00:57:36,168
You and I know that's not the case, right?
795
00:57:36,168 --> 00:57:42,268
And one of the biggest myths is freelancers, people believe they work with new clients all the time.
796
00:57:42,808 --> 00:57:46,228
You probably work with the same clients over and over and over.
797
00:57:46,588 --> 00:57:48,328
And that's just something most people don't know.
798
00:57:48,568 --> 00:57:57,828
So like tying to the beginning of the episode, we tell the stories that shatter the myths that get in the way of companies hiring freelancers and hiring flexible work.
799
00:57:58,408 --> 00:57:59,388
And that's one of the biggest myths.
800
00:57:59,388 --> 00:58:05,028
And that's like, man, if I could just get, if I could take, I don't know, magic and put
801
00:58:05,028 --> 00:58:08,708
it into a company's brain, it would be that myth of, hey, that freelancer is probably going
802
00:58:08,708 --> 00:58:12,288
to work with you longer than any other tenured employee you have.
803
00:58:12,288 --> 00:58:14,128
Do you know what though?
804
00:58:14,128 --> 00:58:28,806
Just to put a little spanner in that works So when I was younger I was a freelance photographer I ascended very high up in the ranks of photography And what I noticed was I was a very loyal freelancer So I had my
805
00:58:28,806 --> 00:58:34,006
magazines that I used to work for, and they would always call you up. And you didn't know what you
806
00:58:34,006 --> 00:58:37,946
were going to do from week to week, but your weeks were always full because you had a rotor of people
807
00:58:37,946 --> 00:58:44,226
that always wanted to employ you. And suddenly I noticed in a couple of the places I worked,
808
00:58:44,226 --> 00:58:50,326
some younger editors came in and all of a sudden, why isn't the phone ringing? You phone them up,
809
00:58:50,546 --> 00:58:55,506
they've got their person in. And I remember it shocked me the first time. And it was an age
810
00:58:55,506 --> 00:59:01,366
thing. It was moving to another generation. I said to one of them, I said, why did you decide
811
00:59:01,366 --> 00:59:06,406
to pick someone else? And they said, oh, I just thought we should have some fresh talent, have
812
00:59:06,406 --> 00:59:13,206
a change. And it was almost like, I know it was for the sake of it. It was for the sake of having
813
00:59:13,206 --> 00:59:19,146
fresh talent in because, you know, they were getting a killer product from me and other
814
00:59:19,146 --> 00:59:24,726
freelancers that I knew. And it was exactly what all the staff wanted. But they were new people in
815
00:59:24,726 --> 00:59:30,306
the job. And they thought, I know, let's do this. And they were younger. And they certainly didn't
816
00:59:30,306 --> 00:59:37,066
understand the unwritten agreement that was the nuts and bolts of all the relationships I've ever
817
00:59:37,066 --> 00:59:41,626
had. I don't think I've ever signed a freelance contract, to be honest, if I think about it.
818
00:59:41,626 --> 00:59:45,126
Honestly, I worked at a national newspaper in the UK for seven years.
819
00:59:45,266 --> 00:59:46,546
I never signed a single thing.
820
00:59:47,246 --> 00:59:48,266
Never signed a single thing.
821
00:59:48,946 --> 00:59:49,126
You know.
822
00:59:49,746 --> 00:59:50,986
And let me ask you this question.
823
00:59:52,186 --> 01:00:04,306
If the company now, today, right, 2026, if you are running Microsoft and you had over a billion dollars of that, what would happen to you?
824
01:00:04,866 --> 01:00:08,126
I'd go straight to the Seychelles and just live out my days there.
825
01:00:08,386 --> 01:00:08,546
No.
826
01:00:09,386 --> 01:00:10,526
I have no idea.
827
01:00:10,526 --> 01:00:15,406
You have a group of lawyers getting ready to have this classification lawsuit and you would owe 30% of that.
828
01:00:15,406 --> 01:00:18,406
It wasn't that long ago that we were living like this.
829
01:00:18,446 --> 01:00:26,026
This is like late 90s in London, working at newspapers, literally not signing anything for years.
830
01:00:26,386 --> 01:00:28,186
I didn't care. I didn't want to sign anything.
831
01:00:28,646 --> 01:00:34,686
I just knew that I was going to call every morning from a picture editor and say, go here and shoot this.
832
01:00:35,066 --> 01:00:36,666
And that could happen seven days a week if I wanted.
833
01:00:36,666 --> 01:00:42,666
Yep. Now here's where I'd say it's different is when you have a developer, it's more static in
834
01:00:42,666 --> 01:00:48,006
terms of you might've worked 40 hours a week for five years and it's easier to prove this person's
835
01:00:48,006 --> 01:00:53,746
not working on a gig freelance fractional basis. Oh, okay. I mean, I'm not, I'm not going anywhere
836
01:00:53,746 --> 01:01:00,786
with it. I'm just like pointing out the fact that I, I just, I, I've, I live in, I come from a world
837
01:01:00,786 --> 01:01:06,466
of just gentlemen's agreements. Yep. And often you didn't even shake on stuff. You just, yeah,
838
01:01:06,466 --> 01:01:10,566
sure. Like, you know, you come and work for me and I'll pay you at the end of the month kind of
839
01:01:10,566 --> 01:01:18,166
thing. Yeah. Do you know what shook the industry? So me, when I started at Microsoft, so when early
840
01:01:18,166 --> 01:01:23,706
employees were determining their compensation package, they were offered two directions.
841
01:01:24,266 --> 01:01:31,426
This way, higher cash, no equity. This way, lower cash, equity. Now, they knew what they were getting
842
01:01:31,426 --> 01:01:36,386
into, right? It was not like they didn't trick them or anything. Microsoft goes public. And
843
01:01:36,386 --> 01:01:41,006
there's the employees who took option number two, which was, you know, high cash, no equity.
844
01:01:41,266 --> 01:01:47,426
And who shows up? The lawyers. And what do the lawyers say? Oh, you got mistreated by Microsoft.
845
01:01:47,666 --> 01:01:53,946
Your friends now have mansions and Lamborghinis and you're stuck with your Honda and single house,
846
01:01:54,026 --> 01:02:00,526
right? And the employees go, yeah, you're right. They did wrong me. Okay. Misclassification lawsuit,
847
01:02:00,526 --> 01:02:02,986
$99 million, massive brand hit.
848
01:02:03,606 --> 01:02:06,706
And that's what kind of drew out a little bit of this industry.
849
01:02:07,046 --> 01:02:09,266
So that's where this, if you can make free cities work,
850
01:02:09,346 --> 01:02:12,386
then a lot of this industry will not be that much of a problem.
851
01:02:12,386 --> 01:02:15,046
And it could be a cooler, sexier industry.
852
01:02:15,966 --> 01:02:16,926
Well, okay.
853
01:02:17,306 --> 01:02:21,006
I mean, free cities, unfortunately, are actually currently working.
854
01:02:21,426 --> 01:02:23,206
In Honduras, it's happening.
855
01:02:23,746 --> 01:02:25,106
That's a whole other podcast.
856
01:02:26,086 --> 01:02:27,006
I'm going to finish.
857
01:02:27,286 --> 01:02:28,546
I just got one last question.
858
01:02:28,546 --> 01:02:36,886
because I've asked everyone this simple question, not a simple answer. What is the future of work?
859
01:02:38,126 --> 01:02:43,346
Oh, that's a deep question. I mean, I hear it a lot here. When you say when it on the,
860
01:02:43,346 --> 01:02:48,926
I was looking at who's speaking and it's like, well, who is this person? Oh, he's into the future
861
01:02:48,926 --> 01:02:53,826
of work. I'm like, wow, what's that bad? What flying around in spaceships? What? I've been asked
862
01:02:53,826 --> 01:02:59,686
this question since 2012, right? Okay. Come on. I think, I think when you answered in 2012,
863
01:02:59,686 --> 01:03:08,586
what did you say about 2026 and did it happen? I would say until 2023, actually 2024, I would
864
01:03:08,586 --> 01:03:11,786
have said the world's going to look a lot more freelance. That's what I would have said, right?
865
01:03:12,046 --> 01:03:15,546
I have a different answer now, but it's directionally similar. I would say the world's
866
01:03:15,546 --> 01:03:19,866
going to look a lot more freelance. At the time, my freelance looked like what you're used to,
867
01:03:19,946 --> 01:03:23,646
right? I'm working on a project basis based off my outcomes with the clients that I choose.
868
01:03:23,826 --> 01:03:29,066
Now, what's happened is that word, I think, has been a little bit too ambiguous, so it's
869
01:03:29,066 --> 01:03:30,726
not as specific.
870
01:03:30,726 --> 01:03:34,386
To me, I do think the world's gonna become more agentic.
871
01:03:34,386 --> 01:03:36,386
I did not think this six months ago.
872
01:03:36,386 --> 01:03:38,586
Hold on a minute.
873
01:03:38,586 --> 01:03:39,586
Agentic.
874
01:03:39,586 --> 01:03:40,586
I keep hearing that word.
875
01:03:40,586 --> 01:03:41,586
Yes.
876
01:03:41,586 --> 01:03:42,586
As in AI agents doing things.
877
01:03:42,586 --> 01:03:43,586
Yes.
878
01:03:43,586 --> 01:03:44,586
Is that what it means?
879
01:03:44,586 --> 01:03:46,226
I define agentic as job descriptions.
880
01:03:46,226 --> 01:03:53,526
What I mean by that is they are simply simple, stupid processes that anyone can build, but
881
01:03:53,526 --> 01:03:56,726
they still require oversight and ownership and iteration.
882
01:03:57,066 --> 01:04:01,366
So I call them job wrecks just because they are no different than bringing an employee.
883
01:04:01,866 --> 01:04:04,066
Right. Like that was the purpose of a job wreck.
884
01:04:04,366 --> 01:04:07,086
Hey, I'm over capacity. We need to do something.
885
01:04:07,406 --> 01:04:08,666
Let's get a job wreck. Right.
886
01:04:08,746 --> 01:04:10,806
So I think it'll become agentic.
887
01:04:11,566 --> 01:04:13,066
I wouldn't have said this six months ago.
888
01:04:13,066 --> 01:04:16,546
And I was early in 2016 when you're making money on this and crypto.
889
01:04:17,066 --> 01:04:20,326
I was dealing with deep learning, neural networks, machine learning.
890
01:04:20,586 --> 01:04:22,946
You know, this was pre pre generative AI.
891
01:04:23,526 --> 01:04:30,286
in working in this way, I don't see it ever going back. It's such a game changer. So I see the world
892
01:04:30,286 --> 01:04:35,766
becoming agentic. I see it becoming specialized, meaning you can't just show up and say, hey,
893
01:04:35,766 --> 01:04:42,586
I'm a salesperson. You better be the best at whatever it is that you love. Best in something
894
01:04:42,586 --> 01:04:48,646
like automotive in North America, energy in Malaysia, highly, highly specialized. And the
895
01:04:48,646 --> 01:04:54,986
third is outcome driven. So it's not enough to show up, say, Hey, I need 150K a year for a
896
01:04:54,986 --> 01:04:59,746
marketing job. No, no, no, no, no. You need to be agentic, meaning you have to bring your agents.
897
01:05:00,106 --> 01:05:03,546
You have to be specialized. I'm not just marketing. I'm actually the best in this industry,
898
01:05:03,546 --> 01:05:08,466
in this region. And you better have your outcomes ready. So rather than just pay me 150,
899
01:05:08,586 --> 01:05:12,626
because I'm too lazy to figure out the exact outcomes, it might be, Hey, we'll do a month
900
01:05:12,626 --> 01:05:17,586
engagement. And I believe these are the metrics I'll hit. If hit, we keep going. If not, we move
901
01:05:17,586 --> 01:05:25,306
on. So those, those are the three things I see. That's interesting. Advise my, my three children
902
01:05:25,306 --> 01:05:31,906
who are still too young, but eldest is 14. But when they, I've just had a conversation with my
903
01:05:31,906 --> 01:05:39,466
daughter actually back home, my eldest, she's 14. And I, I, I said to her, look, Alice, you know,
904
01:05:39,506 --> 01:05:45,166
cause I've been speaking to her for about a year and a half about university. Like, and, and when,
905
01:05:45,166 --> 01:05:50,966
And I, cause I, I, I used to be, yeah, maybe you don't need to go to university, but I went
906
01:05:50,966 --> 01:05:53,826
and it was good fun and blah, blah, blah. And I've just been on the phone to her this time. And I
907
01:05:53,826 --> 01:05:58,006
said, look, Alice, I'm going to tell you now, because I'm in the thick of it here. I'm talking
908
01:05:58,006 --> 01:06:04,366
to people that know about this stuff. You do not need to go to university. So what, this is what
909
01:06:04,366 --> 01:06:09,106
I'm going to advise you is you're going to take a year out at 18 and I'm going to set you up with
910
01:06:09,106 --> 01:06:14,586
some fun things to do. I've got friends, you can go work in Austin or whatever. Yeah. And then after
911
01:06:14,586 --> 01:06:19,546
that year, you're going to decide whether you want to go back. I don't want to force her or tell her,
912
01:06:19,546 --> 01:06:26,266
no, you're not going to university. But it does seem like this shit is really changing
913
01:06:27,066 --> 01:06:30,986
massively fast. And the way you've just described it there, I'm thinking,
914
01:06:30,986 --> 01:06:36,826
how do you get into the market now? Well, you choose your market and you go out and you make
915
01:06:36,826 --> 01:06:39,966
some shit in your backyard, at home, in your home,
916
01:06:39,984 --> 01:06:44,444
office, you design some apps, you create some stuff, you start an Instagram account, you get
917
01:06:44,444 --> 01:06:49,524
20,000 followers. That's what you take into your job interview now, right? So here's, it's a,
918
01:06:50,144 --> 01:06:57,164
let me bring up university. What pisses me off so much, the people who used to say you don't need
919
01:06:57,164 --> 01:07:05,004
university, ask them, where'd you go? Most of them went to Stanford or Harvard or you name it, right?
920
01:07:05,504 --> 01:07:09,464
Then the ones that would say, oh, I didn't go to university. Oh, really? Wait, where'd you start?
921
01:07:09,464 --> 01:07:14,144
oh yeah, I dropped out of Stanford, Harvard. So that part pisses me off, right? There's always
922
01:07:14,144 --> 01:07:18,744
like a, you don't need to go to university. Oh, really? Where'd you go? Now, this is where I do
923
01:07:18,744 --> 01:07:26,384
think it's changing. I think the idea of university is you have intentional time to fuck around.
924
01:07:27,204 --> 01:07:32,004
Now, fuck around, I think used to mean you would have the most impressive professors
925
01:07:32,004 --> 01:07:38,464
to really harden what you believed in and basically just teach you stuff that you wouldn't know if
926
01:07:38,464 --> 01:07:42,564
you are self-directed. And I think like, so I went to a school called Babson College,
927
01:07:42,564 --> 01:07:47,984
and I think it still kind of follows this principle. Our professors were not giving us
928
01:07:47,984 --> 01:07:53,524
generic knowledge. They were saying, go solve massive problems. And we were the best in the
929
01:07:53,524 --> 01:07:58,924
world at our businesses. So my professors were not like generic professors. They were ex-CEOs.
930
01:07:58,924 --> 01:08:04,324
They were ex-VPs. Different, different world than, hey, I'm going to go to a school to major in
931
01:08:04,324 --> 01:08:08,524
something everybody else next to me is doing and get a 99 on what everybody else is doing. So
932
01:08:08,524 --> 01:08:14,324
I think universities are flawed in that way. With that said, I think what will always be true in
933
01:08:14,324 --> 01:08:21,644
this part's, one part's generic, one part's, I think, against the grain. Do hard things. So don't
934
01:08:21,644 --> 01:08:26,844
just like sit on your couch and eat potato chips, right? Like if you love rock climbing, like go
935
01:08:26,844 --> 01:08:31,464
nuts at rock climbing. If you love nature, like figure out every plant possible. If you love to
936
01:08:31,464 --> 01:08:36,764
code, figure out the science of coding, right? Go nuts on being and doing really, really hard things.
937
01:08:37,444 --> 01:08:45,944
The second is don't discount affiliation. And what I mean by that is we do love brands.
938
01:08:46,304 --> 01:08:50,844
As much as we act like, oh, it didn't matter where you went to school. It didn't matter where you
939
01:08:50,844 --> 01:08:56,424
work. When I tell people I worked at Microsoft versus I tell people I had a startup that nobody
940
01:08:56,424 --> 01:09:02,764
knows about, Microsoft speaks. I don't think that's going to go away. And so my two things
941
01:09:02,764 --> 01:09:09,664
are do really hard things, but then still look for affiliation, right? Don't be totally on your own.
942
01:09:10,504 --> 01:09:13,924
And I don't think most people are saying that, right? And I may be wrong with it, but I just,
943
01:09:14,064 --> 01:09:19,884
I think we're always going to be brand snobs, even if the world is insanely democratized,
944
01:09:19,984 --> 01:09:25,784
decentralized, you name it. What do you think? You think? No, I appreciate. I mean, one of my,
945
01:09:25,784 --> 01:09:32,364
For example, UK university situation is slightly different to here, but in the same sense,
946
01:09:32,844 --> 01:09:37,304
I've always said to my kids, look, don't bother going to university unless you get into Oxford
947
01:09:37,304 --> 01:09:40,824
or Cambridge, which is because otherwise, what's the point?
948
01:09:40,824 --> 01:09:42,164
What I'm talking about, affiliation, right?
949
01:09:42,164 --> 01:09:42,964
Do hard things.
950
01:09:43,044 --> 01:09:44,344
If you're going to university, go to the best.
951
01:09:44,464 --> 01:09:45,184
Don't mess around.
952
01:09:45,464 --> 01:09:46,784
And there's two reasons for that.
953
01:09:46,844 --> 01:09:50,984
Number one is in Oxford or Cambridge, or maybe another, Edinburgh or one of the other ones,
954
01:09:51,304 --> 01:09:54,764
you will rub shoulders with people who will end up running the country, right?
955
01:09:54,764 --> 01:09:59,604
that's kind of what happens, rightly or wrongly. There's nothing wrong with putting yourself in a
956
01:09:59,604 --> 01:10:04,744
room full of those people. Number two, if you're in Austin and someone says, where do you go to
957
01:10:04,744 --> 01:10:09,844
uni? And you say Oxford, they'll go, oh, I know that. But they won't know Birmingham University
958
01:10:09,844 --> 01:10:15,684
or Leeds University. They don't care. So I don't think that's worth it. I don't think doing business
959
01:10:15,684 --> 01:10:21,044
studies at Leeds University is worth it. I do think doing anything at Oxford or Cambridge,
960
01:10:21,044 --> 01:10:26,564
you know, Harvard is worth it. And, um, you know, and here's another thing that, that I,
961
01:10:26,564 --> 01:10:31,164
and listen, I don't have kids yet, but it's something we always talk about.
962
01:10:31,524 --> 01:10:36,144
My wife and I are polar opposites. I'm very entrepreneurial. I'm okay. Jumping into something
963
01:10:36,144 --> 01:10:42,024
knowing nothing and having to figure it out. My wife is the exact opposite than me. Who would I
964
01:10:42,024 --> 01:10:55,670
rather employ my wife 10 times out of 10 She a dentist All her families are doctors They did really hard things in studying dentistry Totally different path So I do worry when I remember I heard this It was a founder in the
965
01:10:55,670 --> 01:10:59,050
space and he's like, well, in the future, everyone's going to be entrepreneurs. And I
966
01:10:59,050 --> 01:11:04,010
cringed and I was like, why am I cringing? If everyone was entrepreneurs, we wouldn't have
967
01:11:04,010 --> 01:11:10,190
Bell Labs, Xerox PARC. A lot of great things was developed by scientists who never thought to
968
01:11:10,190 --> 01:11:15,650
themselves, how do I sell this? They loved what it was they were doing. So that's my only other
969
01:11:15,650 --> 01:11:19,830
contrarian is like, if you want to be a doctor, unfortunately, you're going to have to go to
970
01:11:19,830 --> 01:11:22,450
school and study, but you're going to have to get in Oxford and Cambridge.
971
01:11:23,070 --> 01:11:29,570
Well, not necessarily with doctor, but this same daughter originally wanted to be a vet because
972
01:11:29,570 --> 01:11:38,610
she rides horses. But I wonder whether that whole world isn't getting competed away. I mean,
973
01:11:38,610 --> 01:11:40,730
Talk about AI taking over.
974
01:11:41,890 --> 01:11:44,590
If we're getting driven around in driverless cars,
975
01:11:45,010 --> 01:11:50,510
then people are going to do medicine without humans as well.
976
01:11:51,070 --> 01:11:54,230
You know, especially stuff where they cut you open.
977
01:11:54,850 --> 01:11:56,410
Of course, a robot's going to do that.
978
01:11:56,770 --> 01:11:58,950
It's because I've watched the way the Wiimose driving, right?
979
01:11:59,090 --> 01:12:00,050
It drives better than me.
980
01:12:00,310 --> 01:12:03,050
It takes what I think is a risk, but it's not.
981
01:12:03,270 --> 01:12:06,070
Like we were going to pull out this morning coming down here.
982
01:12:06,690 --> 01:12:07,370
There's a freeway.
983
01:12:07,370 --> 01:12:08,810
We're about to pull out onto it.
984
01:12:09,030 --> 01:12:11,330
And I looked at the gap and I thought, I wouldn't do that.
985
01:12:11,630 --> 01:12:12,510
And it did it.
986
01:12:12,710 --> 01:12:13,030
Of course.
987
01:12:13,130 --> 01:12:13,730
Yeah, of course it did.
988
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:15,450
Because it knew exactly what was going to happen.
989
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:16,990
I don't, you know.
990
01:12:17,250 --> 01:12:20,670
And the same will be true if I got operated on by a surgeon.
991
01:12:21,170 --> 01:12:25,510
I think the AI robot arm is going to do a better job of the surgeon, probably.
992
01:12:25,630 --> 01:12:25,690
Yeah.
993
01:12:25,890 --> 01:12:26,190
You know.
994
01:12:26,410 --> 01:12:31,830
Let me throw a question at you related to free cities that you're going to have to answer.
995
01:12:31,990 --> 01:12:34,730
And the answer might be your question is stupid and it doesn't matter.
996
01:12:34,990 --> 01:12:35,390
Go for it.
997
01:12:35,390 --> 01:12:39,790
My question for anything related to automation, driverless cars, getting rid of doctors,
998
01:12:41,390 --> 01:12:43,230
well, it's a really boring question.
999
01:12:44,030 --> 01:12:44,830
Who do I sue?
1000
01:12:45,950 --> 01:12:50,190
And that question unfortunately drives a lot of the world we see.
1001
01:12:50,190 --> 01:12:54,110
Because why did driverless cars take, what, 15 years to hit that road?
1002
01:12:54,110 --> 01:12:55,310
Not because it couldn't do it.
1003
01:12:55,870 --> 01:12:58,990
Mostly because we didn't figure out who's it going to sue, right?
1004
01:12:58,990 --> 01:13:01,630
So that's my cynical brain.
1005
01:13:01,630 --> 01:13:04,030
If you figure it out in free cities, then there's the answer.
1006
01:13:04,030 --> 01:13:12,110
Well, in free cities, you basically create the free city with such legal solidity that you don't
1007
01:13:12,110 --> 01:13:18,110
actually have this problem, which and this is just played out in Honduras. So the famous Honduran
1008
01:13:18,110 --> 01:13:25,470
free cities, of which Prospero is one of them, have basically tried to be shut down by socialist
1009
01:13:25,470 --> 01:13:33,790
governments and they had such robust legal networks set up to protect them, including
1010
01:13:33,790 --> 01:13:39,950
bilateral international agreements and everything, that the socialist government failed.
1011
01:13:39,950 --> 01:13:41,330
And that's a big deal.
1012
01:13:41,330 --> 01:13:42,710
That's a massive deal.
1013
01:13:42,710 --> 01:13:45,470
You know, they're not just like they don't.
1014
01:13:45,470 --> 01:13:49,490
They actually wanted to shut them down and they're ideologically opposed.
1015
01:13:49,490 --> 01:13:51,890
So that would be the thing, you know.
1016
01:13:51,890 --> 01:13:56,170
And Prospera and most of the ZAs were literally set up by lawyers.
1017
01:13:56,290 --> 01:13:57,650
I mean, that's really how it works.
1018
01:13:57,770 --> 01:13:59,470
They changed the constitution of Honduras.
1019
01:13:59,810 --> 01:14:01,810
It was a lot of lawyers getting together saying,
1020
01:14:01,910 --> 01:14:04,710
how do we create a place where we're not going to have problems?
1021
01:14:04,890 --> 01:14:08,950
And in their answer, for example, if you want to go live in Prospera,
1022
01:14:08,970 --> 01:14:10,430
you sign a contract to live there.
1023
01:14:10,630 --> 01:14:11,250
Here are the rules.
1024
01:14:11,990 --> 01:14:13,510
You do a service provider.
1025
01:14:13,950 --> 01:14:15,510
You deal with the service provider.
1026
01:14:15,610 --> 01:14:16,890
It's like you can do this.
1027
01:14:16,930 --> 01:14:17,610
You can't do that.
1028
01:14:18,390 --> 01:14:18,850
And that's it.
1029
01:14:18,850 --> 01:14:19,390
It's zero.
1030
01:14:19,390 --> 01:14:22,650
So let me tell you an experience that might be an episode for later.
1031
01:14:23,370 --> 01:14:25,490
So for me, I grew up in a small town.
1032
01:14:26,570 --> 01:14:27,850
Grew up my whole life there.
1033
01:14:27,950 --> 01:14:28,950
Had zero problems.
1034
01:14:29,050 --> 01:14:30,010
Never had house keys.
1035
01:14:30,410 --> 01:14:30,990
Knew my neighbor.
1036
01:14:31,430 --> 01:14:32,030
Loved it.
1037
01:14:32,510 --> 01:14:35,190
And I would argue it was the perfect utopian city in that way.
1038
01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:36,450
Got older.
1039
01:14:36,530 --> 01:14:37,410
Went to San Francisco.
1040
01:14:37,670 --> 01:14:38,750
It was kind of a shithole.
1041
01:14:39,430 --> 01:14:40,330
Homeless people, right?
1042
01:14:40,370 --> 01:14:41,330
Not exactly run well.
1043
01:14:42,050 --> 01:14:42,970
Moved to Singapore.
1044
01:14:43,450 --> 01:14:44,110
Have you been to Singapore?
1045
01:14:44,450 --> 01:14:44,890
Of course.
1046
01:14:44,990 --> 01:14:45,550
Yeah, many times.
1047
01:14:45,550 --> 01:14:53,390
Now, talk about a mental mind, just twist, whatever. In some ways, it's the socialist
1048
01:14:53,390 --> 01:15:03,736
utopia In other ways it the capitalist utopia And there was one example to me that kind of says this is the way the world should go but I don know if this is the case The incentives for healthcare
1049
01:15:04,356 --> 01:15:08,116
I could twist all my conservative friends and liberal friends about this.
1050
01:15:08,236 --> 01:15:11,236
So you'd go to the gym, you'd see a QR code.
1051
01:15:12,016 --> 01:15:13,336
You scan the QR code.
1052
01:15:13,596 --> 01:15:14,336
What does that mean?
1053
01:15:14,496 --> 01:15:17,556
If you go five times a week, you're going to have cheaper health insurance.
1054
01:15:18,816 --> 01:15:22,616
Singapore had aligned incentives in a way that was best for the society.
1055
01:15:22,616 --> 01:15:25,796
and I would argue it was great.
1056
01:15:26,296 --> 01:15:26,596
Of course.
1057
01:15:27,176 --> 01:15:27,936
It's a trade-off.
1058
01:15:27,936 --> 01:15:30,976
I mean, you can get put in prison
1059
01:15:30,976 --> 01:15:33,456
for crossing the street in the wrong place, probably.
1060
01:15:33,796 --> 01:15:34,336
I don't know.
1061
01:15:34,536 --> 01:15:35,996
Or dropping chewing gum.
1062
01:15:36,356 --> 01:15:37,076
It's an incentive.
1063
01:15:37,496 --> 01:15:39,776
Dubai has the same problem, so-called problem.
1064
01:15:40,196 --> 01:15:42,236
Dubai is incredibly safe, right?
1065
01:15:42,716 --> 01:15:44,136
Dubai has, well, obviously,
1066
01:15:44,336 --> 01:15:45,736
what's happening now is slightly different,
1067
01:15:45,896 --> 01:15:49,356
but if you go Dubai pre-Iran war,
1068
01:15:50,016 --> 01:15:50,836
incredibly safe.
1069
01:15:50,836 --> 01:15:56,276
a lot of people love it there but no you lose free speech yep that's what my friends say that
1070
01:15:56,276 --> 01:16:01,176
Singapore right but it's a trade-off it's a trade-off I don't mind that providing it's
1071
01:16:01,176 --> 01:16:06,576
it's voluntary yep that's the whole thing for me it's voluntary is it voluntary explicit and okay
1072
01:16:06,576 --> 01:16:10,976
explicit and voluntary yeah yep and hence I mean in the case of free cities as well
1073
01:16:10,976 --> 01:16:17,616
you would add on top of that a way to adjudicate independently adjudicate things that you need to
1074
01:16:17,616 --> 01:16:23,196
adjudicate? Like, have you got a problem with it? So in a free city, it runs like really,
1075
01:16:23,396 --> 01:16:27,676
instead of having a government, you have a service provider. So if you have a problem,
1076
01:16:27,776 --> 01:16:34,916
if your contract says you can build this high and they're saying, well, then you can now go to an
1077
01:16:34,916 --> 01:16:39,656
independent adjudicator who will look at that and say no. And it will go with the truth rather than
1078
01:16:39,656 --> 01:16:44,576
having a sort of relationship with the government that blah, blah, blah. So that's the difference.
1079
01:16:44,576 --> 01:16:49,436
But to be honest, for me, at least, they're all degrees of sovereignty.
1080
01:16:49,976 --> 01:16:51,336
They're all degrees of incentives.
1081
01:16:52,136 --> 01:16:53,936
What I want is you to be able to choose.
1082
01:16:54,156 --> 01:16:56,716
I want you to say a bit like the federal system here.
1083
01:16:57,016 --> 01:16:58,336
You didn't like San Francisco.
1084
01:16:58,736 --> 01:16:59,956
Heck, you can move to Austin.
1085
01:17:00,336 --> 01:17:05,516
You can do a lot of stuff in Austin that you can't do over there and vice versa.
1086
01:17:05,956 --> 01:17:08,256
You don't like the way it's governed in Austin.
1087
01:17:08,416 --> 01:17:08,596
Right.
1088
01:17:08,676 --> 01:17:10,596
Maybe you move to somewhere else.
1089
01:17:10,736 --> 01:17:12,516
You know, I got a question for you about that, though.
1090
01:17:12,776 --> 01:17:13,016
Go on.
1091
01:17:13,016 --> 01:17:20,356
So this is what, so I have a, I loved, I love San Francisco in this way.
1092
01:17:21,136 --> 01:17:25,096
So you walk in the same street, well, let me copy it, not in this way,
1093
01:17:25,116 --> 01:17:26,556
because if you clip it, I'll sound like a monster.
1094
01:17:26,796 --> 01:17:29,856
So you walk down the street and you see somebody passed out.
1095
01:17:29,916 --> 01:17:31,356
You see someone doing open air drugs.
1096
01:17:31,956 --> 01:17:33,536
It has gotten better, I will say, in the last year.
1097
01:17:33,636 --> 01:17:34,976
But so that's, that's the way it was.
1098
01:17:35,436 --> 01:17:41,476
Now in the same realm, you have this crazy, innovative, creative streak
1099
01:17:41,476 --> 01:17:45,276
that if the rules were explicit, like a Singapore,
1100
01:17:46,276 --> 01:17:49,336
I don't know if you'd be able to have that level of innovation.
1101
01:17:50,076 --> 01:17:53,856
So part of what I loved about SF was you're so creative
1102
01:17:53,856 --> 01:17:56,096
and just thinking about how to change the world.
1103
01:17:56,256 --> 01:17:59,936
You don't even look down to see that there is someone passed out on the ground
1104
01:17:59,936 --> 01:18:01,116
and then someone doing open air drugs.
1105
01:18:01,396 --> 01:18:01,796
It could be.
1106
01:18:02,096 --> 01:18:02,936
So I don't know.
1107
01:18:03,176 --> 01:18:04,436
That's fine.
1108
01:18:04,636 --> 01:18:05,156
That's fine.
1109
01:18:05,576 --> 01:18:08,876
What you want is a lot of those places all competing with each other.
1110
01:18:09,016 --> 01:18:09,236
True.
1111
01:18:09,236 --> 01:18:15,316
You want a free market of governance. You want badly run places and good run places.
1112
01:18:15,316 --> 01:18:20,196
And like you say, for all intents and purposes, in that sense, San Francisco isn't badly run
1113
01:18:20,196 --> 01:18:27,156
because it allows the space for intense creativity and innovation. So yeah, I don't mind at all. What
1114
01:18:27,156 --> 01:18:31,876
I want to see are lots of competing places. That's why I like the federal system. You've got a lot
1115
01:18:31,876 --> 01:18:35,876
of states all competing with each other and we're seeing it actually work. We are actually seeing
1116
01:18:35,876 --> 01:18:41,796
at work. People are coming here, they're leaving other places. So for me, yeah, more and more of
1117
01:18:41,796 --> 01:18:46,376
that. What I don't like is where you don't get that option. And obviously opt-in, opt-out. It
1118
01:18:46,376 --> 01:18:51,836
goes without saying. You can't be forced to stay somewhere. So opt-in, opt-out. So it ties to the
1119
01:18:51,836 --> 01:18:58,216
beginning because to me, freelance equals the most, I would say, least layers of abstraction
1120
01:18:58,216 --> 01:19:13,982
to choose the impact and outcomes that you want to do And in return the employer gets to choose the impact and outcomes that want Hopefully That all it should be Hopefully exactly A free market agreement between you and them with a contract
1121
01:19:14,142 --> 01:19:15,622
And it gets a little complicated, right?
1122
01:19:15,662 --> 01:19:21,582
Because I mean, a full-time contract to me is the riskiest but laziest thing we have, right?
1123
01:19:21,602 --> 01:19:22,922
We don't look at you as an individual.
1124
01:19:23,062 --> 01:19:25,002
We look at you as a pay band.
1125
01:19:25,002 --> 01:19:28,562
We look at you as a comparable to what you would charge if the company next to me.
1126
01:19:29,342 --> 01:19:32,842
And then it's lazy just in terms of it's not exact.
1127
01:19:32,902 --> 01:19:39,302
software is exact right gets the exact so to me there's so much room in employment to get rid of
1128
01:19:39,302 --> 01:19:44,282
this abstraction get rid of this just laziness and uh we've got a lot of work ahead of us
1129
01:19:44,282 --> 01:19:52,882
we have indeed um matthew no yes and you got me well no it's not even using hopefully you got
1130
01:19:52,882 --> 01:19:58,042
canola hooked up to this i've got i've got too many names written down here i've i've spoken to
1131
01:19:58,042 --> 01:20:02,482
seven people today already, mate. Tired. Like this, intense. Yeah. I've got a bad neck.
1132
01:20:04,842 --> 01:20:07,822
Thanks for chatting. That was really interesting. Thank you. It was fun. Really interesting. No,
1133
01:20:07,862 --> 01:20:12,522
it was. It was really good. I like your perspective. And obviously, it's relevant,
1134
01:20:12,522 --> 01:20:17,202
because I am. How do I consider myself a freelancer? I suppose I am. I haven't said
1135
01:20:17,202 --> 01:20:21,342
that word for so long. You're self-employed. You're not working on a full-time,
1136
01:20:21,622 --> 01:20:25,662
perpetual contract. I think these days, I would call myself an entrepreneur, I think.
1137
01:20:25,662 --> 01:20:32,882
Yeah, that's easier that and even though because previously because I mean really I do create things that are nothing now
1138
01:20:32,882 --> 01:20:36,922
Whereas before I used to look for a market and then go and freelance myself
1139
01:20:36,922 --> 01:20:40,422
But we you know like the original the word comes from
1140
01:20:41,022 --> 01:20:43,022
Lance's to hire doesn't it
1141
01:20:43,022 --> 01:20:46,462
It's a great way to describe it. It's like when I was a photographer
1142
01:20:46,462 --> 01:20:51,482
I had my equipment and I would go and say I'm for sale, you know, I'm for rent who wants me
1143
01:20:51,482 --> 01:20:55,002
You know, I'll fight for you. I'll fight for your team. Yeah, that's basically what it's like
1144
01:20:55,002 --> 01:21:01,802
Whereas now, entrepreneur seems a better idea because I didn't go to anyone and say, do you want to hire me?
1145
01:21:01,862 --> 01:21:07,542
It's like you make something and then it's in the market or you even create the market.
1146
01:21:07,902 --> 01:21:11,342
To your employer, you are the best podcast.
1147
01:21:12,322 --> 01:21:14,502
They don't care what you call yourself.
1148
01:21:15,202 --> 01:21:18,282
You could call yourself any name you want, whatever.
1149
01:21:18,542 --> 01:21:20,002
It's the impact that you make to them.
1150
01:21:20,282 --> 01:21:21,022
I think, I think.
1151
01:21:21,602 --> 01:21:23,242
And I don't know.
1152
01:21:23,242 --> 01:21:27,862
I hopefully this world to, you know, agentic, specialized, outcome driven.
1153
01:21:28,102 --> 01:21:29,362
For some, it's incredible.
1154
01:21:29,642 --> 01:21:31,962
I think in the free city movement, it's aligned.
1155
01:21:33,482 --> 01:21:33,842
Bravo.
1156
01:21:34,222 --> 01:21:35,682
Well, thanks a lot for chatting.
1157
01:21:35,982 --> 01:21:39,502
And it looks like we're getting to the end of the day as well, which is great.
1158
01:21:39,702 --> 01:21:40,182
Let's get some coffee.
1159
01:21:40,422 --> 01:21:41,302
Yeah, let's go and get some coffee.
1160
01:21:41,382 --> 01:21:41,702
Nice one.
1161
01:21:41,942 --> 01:21:42,522
Nice to speak to you.
1162
01:21:42,722 --> 01:21:43,022
Of course.
1163
01:21:45,962 --> 01:21:46,362
Right.
1164
01:21:46,582 --> 01:21:48,742
You made it to the end of the show.
1165
01:21:48,742 --> 01:21:52,942
So I'm going to go ahead and assume that you got some value.
1166
01:21:53,242 --> 01:21:58,662
out of this episode. If you want to help the show, please follow or subscribe right now.
1167
01:21:59,102 --> 01:22:05,302
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1168
01:22:05,902 --> 01:22:12,542
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1169
01:22:12,542 --> 01:22:18,922
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1170
01:22:18,922 --> 01:22:26,842
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1171
01:22:26,842 --> 01:22:32,722
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1172
01:22:32,722 --> 01:22:39,982
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1173
01:22:39,982 --> 01:22:45,222
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1174
01:22:45,222 --> 01:22:51,082
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1175
01:22:51,082 --> 01:22:58,542
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1176
01:22:58,542 --> 01:23:05,222
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1177
01:23:05,222 --> 01:23:07,622
have a good week and see you next time
1178
01:23:15,222 --> 01:23:45,202
Thank you.