WEBVTT
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Hello, David Meyer.
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What's going on, Mark?
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Yeah, this is this is fun.
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This is fun.
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So um you and I now have known one another reasonably well.
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I want to say it feels like going on two years.
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Yeah.
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Maybe more, but yeah.
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Yeah, maybe more.
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And you were a client before I met you.
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And then you were gracious enough to join a uh uh what's what do they call it, right?
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A focus group?
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A focus group uh to help us think about um how to position what's going on right now.
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But this was literally, I want to say um 18 months ago.
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And what was fascinating about the focus group is that uh, or I should say focus groups, because we talked to like I want to say 12 or 15, maybe even more, right?
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About what was going on with AI and where we were taking 90.
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And uh the punchline was 18 months ago, people didn't want to even hear about it, right?
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They weren't interested.
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They uh um generally speaking, uh they felt it was uh a disconnected with reality conversation.
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Um and all they wanted to do was talk about how our product could get better as it is, and um and and that part of it was revealing in and of itself, right?
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Yeah.
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And uh and and uh and and and and what it what's fascinating is the topic for today's conversation is change, right?
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You and I geek out about change.
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And just generally speaking, uh, we thought we'd have, I'd say, what I'll call a free-flowing conversation around change and what's going on in the world right now.
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You have your vantage point, and we can talk a little bit about your business, and I have my vantage point, obviously.
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But uh uh these are fascinating times.
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And uh to paraphrase uh our friend Bob Dylan, the times they are changing.
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Come gather around people.
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Yeah, it's uh so for my for my friends in the audience, if you wouldn't mind, just uh uh it'd be great if you could share a little background so they got a sense for this uh this friend of mine.
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So I've been in marketing for my entire career.
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Uh started spoke 17 years ago, almost 18.
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Um and started it because I wanted to find I wanted to create a kind of place that I wanted to work.
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And and and I think we've been successful at that.
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Most of uh most everybody's been around most of the time.
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We've got seasoned professionals.
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Uh as my partner Steve says, would like we hit the nail in straight the first time without bending it all around.
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Most most people have been I think the average tenure is probably a dozen years, and that's awesome.
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A few people have joined in the last few years, but it's really it's some of us have been working together 30 years.
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It's it's just a great group of people.
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And our what we're great at is understanding brand messaging and positioning and setting the brand apart and telling stories.
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We say you you haven't told your story until someone else can tell it.
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So it's really figuring out not so much what you want to say, but what they want to hear, and putting that in a in language that's clear, concise, and compelling, and then position it so hopefully the only reasonable choice for your ideal customer.
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And then take it from there.
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Just, you know, whatever the we find the fastest path to cash.
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And it's just been a lot of fun.
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You know, it's funny you say the only reasonable choice.
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I think it's just a clear and compelling choice, right?
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Yeah.
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I mean, pretty much the same.
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I mean, I don't know what do you think the difference of that is?
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Clear and compelling or only reasonable?
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Uh you know, I don't know about you, but um, I'd rather be like excited about something.
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You know, that's a reasonable opportunity, right?
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Okay.
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All right.
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Yeah, well, hopefully it's compelling.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's what I like.
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You know, it's like, you know, I always like, you know, our time together because I look forward to it because we always have really energizing and interesting and uh, you know, conversations around what's going on and whether it's you know in the broader world or we're talking about you know, the world of EOS and operating systems, or we're talking about brand and marketing or or change in general.
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You know, just I always enjoy the conversations because, you know, uh there's a there's a there's there's a always a positive energy, right?
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That you know, we're you know, the there's that, you know, we're creators, we're builders, we can do this, you know, as opposed to, you know, certain conversations.
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Uh I I remember, I think I told a story once on this podcast, but in in college, um, I fell head over heels for a woman and uh uh she kind of um rejected me after about three dates because she felt I was too optimistic.
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She was more of the, you know, the uh, oh, you can't be bright because you're an optimist, you know, the bright people are all the cynics.
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And and so I wasn't, I, you know, I wasn't her cool dude.
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You know, the guy with the, you know, sitting in the coffee shop bemoaning how, you know, we're all we're all gonna die.
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I don't know.
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But anyway, um, I always enjoy our conversations because you and I both are pretty optimistic about the long term.
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It's exciting.
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Like all the change, it's it well, in my in I think in every industry, I mean, your industry wasn't around, you know, hasn't been around that long.
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No.
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Um, but in marketing, my my first job out of college was in the yellow pages.
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Like there's been a lot of change.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I don't know how many of my you know, how many people have never seen or held a yellow page book or don't, you know, and it's like, and it's just it's been constant change from from the from go.
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Yeah.
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And it's there's always something else.
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And it's just it's exciting.
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It's more I think I would get bored if there weren't constant change.
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That's why I like the industry, because working, I I've never worked in-house for a company because I don't think I'd I don't know if I'd I don't know if I'd get bored doing the same thing every day.
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Right.
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Um, yeah, but jumping from learning about all the different industries and clients and change, it's just it's been fascinating.
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It's been a really interesting career.
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Yeah.
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So you and I uh were together at the uh EOS conference, which was now feels like forever ago, but probably three or so weeks ago.
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And we were chatting about, you know, uh getting together and doing this.
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And uh one of the things that you know you brought up is I you know, I think we should talk about change.
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So what was going on through your head, you know, and what has been going on through your head where you thought this would be a great conversation for us to have?
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Well, we we look back.
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We're the cobbler's kids.
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Like I think most agencies are like this, cobbler's kids with no shoes.
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So we have a hard time treating ourselves as a client.
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But we we're doing a better job of it.
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And we looked, one of the things we we do with our clients is look at who are your best clients.
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I mean, it's obvious stuff.
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Who are your best clients?
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How did you get them?
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What happened?
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Um, just looking for patterns.
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And we did that for ourselves, and we noticed that just about every time when someone came to us, they were on what we've called them thresholds of change.
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Something happened.
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Yeah, it's a new product launch, it's new leadership, it's mergers, acquisitions, it's societal change, the way customers buy, it's um environmental, whether it's environmental or AI or technology, there's some outs, there's some catalyst that um they they reach a point where the the more successful ones realize that they're at the at that inflection point and do something about it.
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And some unfortunately wait until they're in a lot of pain and there's just total misalignment.
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And and it was just in the context of your book, I thought, you know, the the stages of company growth.
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Um there, I think there are probably some parallels.
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I haven't dug that much into it.
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Yeah, you know, your your book I I refer back to it more than I'd like to admit, but just you know, and how 90 and how your mission it's just to help people reach those if they want.
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Not that there's anything wrong with a level three company, right?
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Right.
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If they want to move to level four, it's it's there are these changes, there are these thresholds that they hit.
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Um and it's I just think there's some interesting parallels.
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Yeah, no question.
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I and I think as we said, you know, change is all around us right now, and and uh whether, you know, whether you that change is, you know, you know that in order to turn that vision that you have into reality, you're gonna have to go through stage three, which is where a lot of companies, you know, as an example that run on EOS, um that's sort of where they like, uh right.
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Uh we're in this, I've I've gone out and I've hired, you know, a bunch of good subject matter experts, leaders in marketing, or leaders in sales, or leader in in product, or a leader in operations, and and and now I've got all these people, but they all came with their own playbooks, and they're not really um leaning into making sure that we're all uh you know have the same culture.
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They kind of have their subcultures going on, and the next thing you turn around and you're like, this is hard, and I don't even like this company anymore.
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How'd I get here?
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And now you're like, do I do I just let these, you know, these these people just do it because you know their experience and you know, I don't really know each of their areas of expertise anymore.
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And or do I, you know, have that founder mode moment where it's like, damn it, we gotta all get on the same page.
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And if you're not willing to get on the same page with me, then you know, I'm gonna take care of you.
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But you know, it's it's time for you to to to move on.
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And so, yeah, you know, each of those stages is filled with changes, right?
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I remember when I first encountered EOS and you know, Gino uh used to talk about, you know, every single uh, you know, business owner, founder, entrepreneur, you know, is dealing with 136 issues.
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And if you just think about that, right, just in and and you don't categorize them or compartmentalize them, right?
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That's just overwhelming.
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But when you realize, oh, these are vision issues and these are, you know, you know, measurable issues, and these are just uh, you know, planning issues, and these are just uh, you know, you know uh meeting related issues where we got to make sure we're all on the same page given what we've all agreed to do for this quarter, you know, uh, or these are process issues, right?
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All of a sudden you can take these 136 and you can put them in in the six key components, and it just becomes much more manageable.
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And so um, but the reality is is you know, it doesn't matter whether you're at stage one or you're at stage five, or you know, you now have a multi-company holding uh structure where you're at, you know, at stage six or you're international and you've got, you know, a bunch of different brands, which is kind of stage seven, you know, there's always these issues, right?
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And and and there's always entropy.
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And so change is always is constant, right?
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But some changes are a little bit more obvious and and and impactful than others.
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And uh and and and to your point, those moments where the weight of the need for change is palpable, right?
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Whether it's in the brand, right?
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Or whether it's like I said, whether it's structural or whether it's a leadership or something like that.
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I'd say 80 plus percent of the time, you know, change is driven by pain.
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Yes, yeah, for sure.
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Like that's human nature.
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I mean, that's psychology.
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And it's like people people will rush to change more to avoid plain pain than to rush to pleasure.
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It's motivator, it's fear.
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It's I mean, it's I mean, that's yeah, I mean, we're we're emotional creatures, we're big emotional meatbags and make all our decisions based on emotion.
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Um, and then backfill it with logic.
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And a lot of times that pain with change shows up in its lack of alignment internally.
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That's where it breaks internally before the messaging or any of the marketing changes.
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It's they haven't recognized, they need to recognize it, name it, own it, address it.
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What are we gonna do?
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What has to be true for us to navigate this change?
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Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting.
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I never thought about this until just now.
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So you know, I I try hard as an INTJ, right?
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So I'm an introvert, and in theory, I'm in an intuitive who thinks, you know, um, and then makes decisions quickly as a judger.
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So in theory, you know, I'm less emotional than a feeler, right?
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Um, so you have the thinkers versus the feelers and that third dimension of the four dimensions associated with Myers Briggs.
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And so you think that, you know, a thinker thinks that they're relatively rational.
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But if you think about what we just said, it's actually emotion that's driving change.
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Always, right?
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Because it's pain.
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And and and by definition, there is no pain if there is no emotion.
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Maybe I'm wrong on that one, but I'm pretty sure there's a high R square between an emotional response and pain.
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Yeah, right.
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Yeah, I'm I'm an ENTP.
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So But yeah, it's it's it's the emotion.
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I mean, it's it's Aristotle.
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It's I mean, he was ethos, logos, pathos.
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And it's how does it make you feel?
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Do you trust the person, you know?
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Did do I believe them?
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And then how does it make you feel?
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Yeah.
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Um that's that's the driver.
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I think it's ethos, pathos, logos is the this the order.
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But it's do you trust the person?
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How does that make or the whatever it is, how does it make you feel?
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And then logos logic comes last.
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But it's interesting that um, you know, as an intuitive, I've always said that I believe emotion reveals what my subconscious is processing, right?
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It's not, it's not particularly good at articulating it, right?
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But it's like, you know, it's like something's going on.
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I can't put words to it, but I can feel it, right?
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I my intuition says that there's an issue here, right?
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And so it's fascinating because as an intuitive thinker, right, you're relying on your emotions to give you the to help you tap into the intuitive processing that's taking place, you know, subconsciously.
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And so back to your, you know, the the emotion um uh does precede the logic oftentimes.
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Emotion puts money in motion.
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Yeah, yeah, because otherwise, why would you do it?
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Right?
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It's like, you know, there's so too many other things going on.
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Um how does it make you feel?
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Like why did you choose whatever it is?
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It was how you how it made you feel.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So it's I didn't know you were so young.
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I I I love him.
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Um so how did the thresholds of change concept first emerge inside spoke?
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I it was just a realization.
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It was just uh hopefully it was hopefully it can help people understand what's going on and give them a framework for how to address it or just to realize it.
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Sometimes just naming it helps people deal with it.
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Oh yeah.
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And so it's like if we can help just if we can help clients or anybody just realize that they're undergoing some change and focus on how to address it, how to get ahead of it, how to stay aligned, how to make a plan.
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Yeah is is that what you're finding right now?
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Is that let's just say a team realizes that, you know, they're they're they're in the midst of change.
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And um and then the next thing is it's like, okay, so how are we going to deal with this?
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Because you've now said a couple of different times, you know, there's an alignment.
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It's 100%.
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Yeah.
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It's I know I I know that we're we we lit, I literally at our last quarterly said we got an alignment, you know, actually before the quarterly, before the quarterly, uh, we realized we had an alignment issue.
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And so we did a survey and you know, around six or seven categories.
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And sure enough, right, there was an alignment issue.
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And then we literally spent, I want to say two or three hours talking about it at our offsite, right?
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And part of the alignment issue was around, you know, certain individuals had a uh uh, you know, they were focused on the now.
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And certain individuals were focused on, you know, six months to 12 months from now, right?
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And and and and then I'm sitting here going, I'm I'm really focused on a year or two years or three years or five years from now, right?
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And working my way backwards, and they're like, you know, no, there's too much change going on.
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Let's just align on the moment we're in.
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I'm like, but you know, as I've said for literally since I started the company, I'm always a woo, I'm always fearful of I call it the animal house scene where the guy pushes the conduct the the marching band leader out of the way, grabs the baton and then goes into the alley.
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It goes into the alley and everything like, you know, everything breaks up, right?
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The trombones, you know, band.
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I love that scene.
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:16.000
I'm like, dude, I do not want to be, you know, going into the alley.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.799
I don't, you know, and and and for us to go, what the hell?
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.119
Right?
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:23.039
Because I've experienced it too many times in my even with 90, right?
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.000
Where it's like, I won't even bore you with all the stories, right?
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:31.839
But it's like we talked about this, we all aligned on this, and then everybody got heads down and they forgot about it.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.200
And next thing you know, we're like, well, shit, how'd we get here?
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.000
Well, and then so I mean, not to go back to Animal House, but how could you not?
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:53.519
You they cut back to that scene later towards the end, if I recall, and everything else is going on, the band's still in the alley, there's no visionary taking them anywhere, like they just stayed there.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:54.960
Yeah, it is.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:08.240
I mean, it's always the byproduct of I think and I'm sure other agencies are the same, or other marketing or other consultants are the same.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:20.480
Where after one of our working sessions or workshops or modules, the benefit that people don't know that they're gonna get, but we almost always see is alignment.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:27.279
Yeah, they walk out with a clear it's before we'll start we start.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:45.279
One of the things we'll do is like if we're doing a messaging, um, if if their messaging positioning is off, we'll ask the leadership team, whoever's in the room, we'll give them all a a note card and say, write down the single most important thing that you guys do.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.599
Like what are you what's the what's your single most important message?
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:56.880
And I don't think we've ever had two people write the same thing.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:04.799
And it's just like I mean, and it's just like and they're all none of them are wrong.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.279
None of them are bad answers.
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.720
They're just not the same.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.359
They're just not moving in the right.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.559
They don't all have that same shared vision.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.039
And it's it's kind of fascinating.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:19.519
How many times do you think you've done this now?
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.319
We've been in business 17 years.
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:24.559
So what's your gut?
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:37.359
I mean, just just you know, for the audience's sake, what's a gut number on how many times you've done this work and seeing that the leadership team is not aligned, and what percentage of the time is the leadership not aligned?
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.200
It sounds like you're saying it's over 95%.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:41.359
Not aligned, yeah.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:41.839
Yeah.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:42.960
Absolutely.
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:43.359
Yeah.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:44.400
Absolutely.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.920
And the number of times, I mean, I'd have to look and see.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.720
I mean, we've had over, we've been in business 17 years.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:55.119
I'd have to look, but definitely over a hundred clients, right?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:55.440
Yeah.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:04.319
We tend to keep the good news is we tend to keep clients um for a long time.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:04.720
Yeah.
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.640
So, you know, we've had clients that have been with us as long as we've been in business.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:09.839
And that's crazy.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.279
Yeah, it's um there's just yeah, it's we've been very fortunate that way.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.720
There's a just a good level of trust and it's nice.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:25.200
Is it is it is well, just just to sort of finish on this one though, is it a hundred percent of the time?
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.200
Oh a hundred percent of the time.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:28.960
That's crazy, right?
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:38.640
100% like some of them might be close, but yeah, if there's if there if there are three people in the room, it's they're not aligned.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.400
And I I thought it was just me.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:51.279
Yeah, you're you are a special snowflake, but yeah, no, and it can be it's it's fascinating.
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:58.000
And I I gotta tell you, I'll be honest, like Cobbler's kids, and if I did this with our company, it'd be the same thing.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.599
Like, we're cute, and I think part of it's just there's constant change.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:15.920
And like you were like you were saying about your company, it's like we've got people focused on the doing now and people focused on doing what's next, like because we're evolving, we're constantly evolving, yeah.
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:20.960
It's and it's the messaging for us is is difficult too.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:39.279
And we're you know, it's it's by the time and this isn't unique, I don't think, to to us or to you, but by the time you come up with messaging and do whatever, and it's on your website, which is the anchor of your brand, if that takes six months, something's changed.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:39.839
Yeah.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:46.319
Well, it's like we did, we did, we did um branding work recently, I would say.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.799
And uh um, and it doesn't reflect what's going on right now.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:25:06.880
And and and and I said when we started the you know work internally, I said, guys, right, I we I think we need to to be thinking about once again, this is a you know, this whole issue around time span or of of reference, right?
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:14.559
So um, and and by the way, we can get we can bring that back to stages of development here in a second, because I think it'll it'll help folks, right?
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:23.839
But you know, my perspective was you know, we need to be thinking about where we're going to be next, not now, right?
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.319
But the work, right, that everybody aligned around was now, right?
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.440
And guess what's happened?
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.440
Next is now, right?
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.720
In no time at all.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:36.640
In in no time at all, right?
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:39.519
And um, and it's and it's going super fast, right?
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:54.960
And then and and and to be specific, you know, we are now in um the uh uh beta to close beta, but and if you're interested, if you're a client, you're welcome to join our beta, right?
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.880
But we're in a closed beta right now with what we call ask mass.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:08.799
And so ask mas is uh the culmination of over two years worth of work, where it's really why we raised the Series B, right?
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:23.759
Ask MAS, you just ask MAS anything about what's going on in your company, and whatever is in the operating system, you know, whatever's in 90s operating system or whatever's connected to 90s operating systems through integrations, AskMAS can interrogate, right?
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.400
So you can ask MAS as an example.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:38.000
Um, you know, do are the rocks that we, you know, we are that we've selected for the quarter, um, you know, what percentage of them are aligned with, you know, with our goals for the year?
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.160
Um, do we have any rocks that are duplicative as an example, right?
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.640
You can ask MAS which parts of your organization are not having effective weekly meetings.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.039
You can ask MAS anything, right?
00:26:49.599 --> 00:27:03.839
And um and it can see because it, you know, because we took two years to figure out how to connect everything in the system to this, you know, to this brain, for lack of a better phrase, right?
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:19.839
That can that can see and and it not just can see, but then it's like, all right, Maz, can you create, you know, um an issue for me uh for the senior leadership team that says, hey, we got it, you know, we got five rocks that are duplicative or in conflict, right?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:29.680
Or, you know, create a create a to-do for me to go talk to Joe because you know, Joe's team's not, they're not, they're they're not updating their KPIs, right?
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.359
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:41.359
And so, and so, but the brand didn't really, you know, contemplate um work, you know, ask mass being in the world yet, right?
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:53.039
So um, so it's it's it's interesting, right, back to the way I like to look at this stuff, and and I think the alignment tension comes in here, right?
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.519
Is there's now, next, later, and never, right?
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:04.000
And and all three of those, four of those categories, right, or buckets are really important.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:14.079
You know, the never stuff, there's people who there are people who just you know constantly bring something that that's like they think it's a cool idea, and it's like, no, that doesn't make any sense.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:23.839
Or they or they want to have you know your ICP, instead of your ICP being being very focused, they want your ICP to be, you know, your your personas, right?
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.640
That that you you know, it's like, no, guys, there are a big difference between the personas that we support, right?
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:36.319
So we obviously we have visionaries and we have integrators and you know, we have leadership team members and we have team leaders and we have individual contributors.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:38.240
They're all individual personas, right?
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:43.759
And then you can even go in and start, you know, cutting this all up by stage of development, by industry.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.240
I mean, you could personify the hell out of everything, right?
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.319
And eventually, and it matters, right?
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.960
Because ultimately, you know, our software knows who you are, right?
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.599
So they know what seat you're sitting in, right?
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.160
They they know what company you're sitting in, right?
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:09.920
They know what industry your your guys are in, they know which stage you're I mean, really you can get super, super, you know, like laser focused with your personas, but they're personas, right?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.559
They're not, you know, they're they're heuristics for helping us communicate better.
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.000
And I could go on, right?
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:17.680
But they're not our ICPs.
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.119
And so you have these fights, uh, I say fights, right?
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:26.880
But you know, we do have these battles every now and then around personas versus ICPs, as an example.
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:28.559
And it's like, come on, guys, right?
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.039
We're not like this is in the never, right?
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:38.160
The ICP is forever turning, having 20 ICPs is in the never bucket, right?
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:43.920
But in there are a bunch of different examples, like never, we're never gonna be, you know, a payroll processing company.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:45.839
It's in the never bucket, right?
00:29:47.039 --> 00:30:09.519
But getting people aligned on now, next, later, and never, um, across, you know, brand, across product offering, across structure, across, you know, the things that are important for you to win the stage of development you're in right now, right?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.079
Um, it sounds so easy.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:21.920
I mean, every time you roll out a new feature or a new update or new anything, like how do you guys how do you guys handle that?
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.799
Like what's what's that look like for you?
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.519
Well, those are really interesting conversations, right?
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:40.640
Because now with you know, agents and technology being the way it is, um, you know, the way the the way that we'll do it in three months is gonna be different than the way we're doing it right now, right?
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.640
So that's and and but that's now next, not now.
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:45.599
Right.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:51.200
And so that's your classic issue as a as a founder, as a visionary, as a CEO.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.119
It's like, hey guys, right?
00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:00.640
Next we're gonna start working on transitioning to leveraging, you know, agents to do this kind of work as an example.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.440
That doesn't mean we're doing it now, right?
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.079
And uh so don't freak out about it, right?
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:14.400
And it may be that we get into the next quarterly planning session and we don't have uh we don't have the resources to do it, you know, to make it now.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.599
So it's gonna sit in the next category, right?
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:48.319
Lots of stories around, you know, founders, CEOs, visionaries, whatever you want to call them, you know, just thinking out loud and all of a sudden people running and or or even some of my senior colleagues, um, you know, we've got some stories within our company where, you know, someone will come up with an idea, and the next thing you know, and because they're a senior, you know, they've been here for, you know, you know, since very early on and highly respected, it's like, well, we're gonna go execute on that.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.720
It's like, no, we don't have the resources to execute on that.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:57.359
But the next thing you know, you're sitting there and people are complaining because so-and-so has you know, asked us to do this stuff.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.400
And I'm like, but we don't have the resources for it.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.440
Why are you even thinking about it?
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:02.559
Why didn't you bring that to me?
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:11.519
So, you know, this now, this now, next later and never um stuff, I think is is very important for alignment, right?
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:24.319
Because I think a lot of times if you if you don't have the discipline around those four buckets, you you will end up fighting over stuff that you're really not as disconnected on as you think you are.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.480
It's just a question of timing, right?
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:34.400
But there are a lot of people, you know, who I think predominantly live in the now, right?
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.799
Even even on your leadership team, right?
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:39.680
And, you know, that's back to the stages of development.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.200
You know, that first stage is, you know, that's all about now, right?
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:45.680
Stage one, product market fit, that's now, right?
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:58.160
Are we are we figuring out how to how to get this so that people actually think this is uh something they'd be willing to to buy and and spend money on and and spend enough on so that we have a commercially viable business.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:01.039
And and so that's you know, zero to ninety days, right?
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:02.799
That's your that's now.
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:10.480
And then, and then when once you have that in place, uh now you can move to having a now and a next, right?
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:16.799
So the now is the is is is sort of this current 90 days, and the next is the next quarter, right?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.200
We're not gonna worry about this until next quarter.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:27.839
And and and that next quarter person, you need you know, needs to be someone who's, you know, that's sort of like your second layer of your organization, right?
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:34.799
So your first layer of your organization is all about the zero to ninety, second layer of the organization is about the ninety to three sixty.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:44.799
And so, you know, so and and you can say that that 90 to 180 is is is all about the next, and then everything else is in the later or the never.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:51.279
And then and then as you stack the next layer, it's one to two years, the next layer is two to five, and the next layer is five to ten.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:59.519
And now, you know, you'll have people like me who are sitting here in the five to ten, and you know, I'm like, I'm not worried.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:06.000
If you're dragging me into now, then um fair enough.
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:07.599
I'll I'll I'll solve for it.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.800
But you need to know my brain's not in now, right?
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:11.119
Right.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:14.320
And, you know, and my brain really isn't in next.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.800
My brain is almost always in later.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:38.800
And so, you know, you can you, you know, I'm willing to help on now and and and and next, but you know, but and then I'm trying to do my best to understand that, you know, you're either, you know, yeah, if you're on the senior leadership team, you should be, you know, pretty much in the in the in the later category, but managing your people in the next and the now categories really, really well.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:44.480
But um alignment around now, next, later, and and and never super important.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:51.599
What other areas do you see people struggling with in terms of alignment?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.199
I think it's having clarity.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:57.039
I think it's there's almost information overload.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:06.880
Um and there it's like there's information everywhere, and it's just creating that clarity around it and having the confidence.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.599
Um and that confidence will build trust.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:18.079
Aaron Powell When you're helping teams, and it's interesting, you talked about, you know, you've had clients now for decades, right?
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:28.719
When you when you're helping your clients, do you find that you're visiting alignment how often?
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:32.079
Is it 90 days, 180 days, once a year?
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.280
How often are you all getting back in?
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.400
We meet with clients at least quarterly.
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:42.639
I mean, we meet with them more often, but like we're not sitting in on their quarterlies.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:56.400
I think to answer your previous question, and it's the biggest mistake we see around when when alignment's off is that people throw more tactics at it.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.400
They it's it's that like that's gonna solve it.
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:02.480
It's like more this, more that.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.519
And it's like that is absolutely not the answer.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:10.400
Like more, it's just it's it amplifies the problem instead of fixes it.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.239
Yeah, it's interesting, right?
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:20.639
We uh I've noticed that is especially when there's this core, like really important work that needs to be done, right?
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:26.239
And then there's uh yeah, it this this sounds like the asshole founder, right?
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.559
Then there's this performative work, right?
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:32.639
Where people are working just to stay busy, but it's not really good work, right?
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:47.119
And so um I think there's, you know, if you can have a way to sort of understand like the ratio of performative versus like really important work that's going on, that's probably tells you something, right?
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:50.880
It either tells you that you have too many people, right?
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.480
Or that there's misalignment.
00:36:54.559 --> 00:37:12.880
And so people are just trying to appear busy so that they don't have to address the real issue, which is we're not all on the same page, and so the work you're doing, the work we're doing collectively, isn't actually as powerful as if we were all on the same page.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.480
And yeah, and more isn't always better.
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:22.559
And no, it's like uh it's you know, we're back to AI.
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.239
It doesn't it's a great tool.
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:30.960
Um, it doesn't help you think better.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:33.840
It exposes bad thinking faster.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:45.280
Yeah, and it's like doing more of bad is worse, and it's and it's like and then there's the authenticity angle.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:58.000
Um consumers consents, it's it's that synthetic sheen of AI thinking that lacks, I think you know, now more than ever, that that human element.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:05.360
So that that shared vision is and that clarity is all grounded in humanity.
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.760
Um it's and then back to the feeling and the emotion.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:16.960
What when you think about feeling and emotion, in particular, sort of with founders or CEOs, visionaries, whatever we want to call here, right?
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:31.039
Um what do what do these leaders mostly get wrong during these threshold moments where change is here, but they may not be competently addressing it.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:36.159
I there's an attachment to what got them there.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:41.920
Yeah there's and again, it's making it's an emotional decision.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:50.960
They're emotionally attached to what it was, and the the good ones are ready to embrace what it is and what it's gonna be.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:39:05.119
But it's it's like you know, dragging an acre through the sand sometimes and having really frank conversations with people, which is sometimes hard, but has to be done.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:13.360
But it's it's that um emotional connection to what was and what got them there, and like this is my baby, yeah.
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:19.599
Like, and sometimes kids move off and go to college and or whatever.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:30.239
There's a chance it's not always gonna be, you know, so um it's I think it's that emotional tie to the with the founder where they just get stuck.
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:59.519
What percentage of the time is the struggle with change resting at the founder's level, an individual within the leadership team's level, or at the leadership team, generally speaking, aligned against the founder, right?
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:01.920
I was going indifferent.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.960
I think the answer where I thought you were gonna go is having the whole team aligned.
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:12.320
I think Right.
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:13.199
So it's not a line.
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:14.559
We've already agreed it's not a line.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:28.719
Now the question is if we get the leader and the leadership team aligned, the the thing that breaks is outside of the leadership team and communicating that throughout the organization.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:35.199
And so it's I mean, I add to your first question, is it the leadership team or the founder?
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:38.480
Or or an individual on the leadership team, right?
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:45.440
Because I think you could, you know, you could kind of have, you know, maybe those, you know, if you think about that as a pie, as a percentage of the pie, right?
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:47.599
I think the founder's obviously easy, right?
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:56.880
The leadership team generally, and when I say leadership team, I mean multiple members of the leadership team being, you know, sort of against what the founder wants to do, right?
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:58.079
Back to alignment.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:02.000
Or there's just one member of the leadership team who's like, you know.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:07.199
It's one member of the leadership team, is probably what we see most.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:08.159
Mostly.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.679
And not the founder?
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:16.400
The founder will come along before, you know, every member of the leadership team.
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:23.280
That's been your ex But your experience is when you're going through these misalignment, realignment moments.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:31.280
Once again, and I hate to be sort of pushing on a an answer here, but I'm curious I'm curious, right?
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.480
Is it is it is it typically the founder?
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:42.639
Is it typically one member, or is it typically a bunch of the leadership team against the founder?
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:47.519
That is the problem?
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:48.639
Yes.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:52.239
Where the misalignment uh exists.
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.000
I think I think it's getting it's one or two members of the leadership team.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:06.320
I think whether it's the founder or the majority of the leadership team and the leadership teams that we work with are great.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.320
And they can see things that the founder doesn't.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:28.639
And most good founders that we've worked with, we've been fortunate, um, can see it, might take some time and embrace it, but getting the whole team uh aligned around it takes longer.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:33.599
That's you know, getting the the stragglers on board, I think takes longer.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:39.599
I think most founders, at some point you realize you have some self-awareness, it's like you can't smell your own breath.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:42.400
Like, like someone needs to tell you.
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:42.880
Yeah.
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:43.760
Yeah.
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.320
And most good founders are are open to that.
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.000
You know, they have to be.
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:50.480
Yeah.
00:42:50.800 --> 00:43:01.679
Once they get to a certain size, certainly, whether it's the leadership team or a board or whatever, you you have to Yeah, I mean, other otherwise you're you know, you're you're gonna fail eventually, right?
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:10.800
If you you know, you know, we it's a it's you know, it's a reason a lot of, you know, whether it's you know having someone with you with your expertise and and wisdom, right?
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.440
Or whether it's having you know a coach, right?
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:18.719
You can't read the label from inside the jar, is the expression we use that you use the you can't smell your own breath, right?
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:27.119
But ultimately, you know, if you're I would I would say if you're a reasonably intelligent founder, right, you want to do what's right for the long run.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:36.559
And and you know, a lot, and especially if you're not not just a founder, but you know, you you you're a significant, you know, if not the entire shareholder base, right?
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.360
I mean, you you're you're not stupid.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:47.679
Um, and the reality is you want to do what's right, but but sometimes you know you're you're locked into something more than you think you are.
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:59.679
Well, and my guess, not having ever sat on your leadership teams, is that one of the jobs and what makes your leadership team great is they probably reel you.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.599
You in sometimes.
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:05.840
But that's their job.
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:08.480
So that's I mean, so there's an alignment thing too.
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:16.719
So it's whether it's it's pushing you out or pulling you in, it's that it's that right tension between now and next and later.
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:17.280
Yeah.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:17.840
Exactly.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:18.239
Yeah.
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:26.639
And I and and and that's usually like I said earlier, I we have had fights over ICP as an example, right?
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:28.079
Over the years.
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:33.519
And um which to me is crazy because in my mind it's always been the same.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.199
It's never changed, right?
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:40.079
But um but you know, we we we've had moments, right?
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:54.079
And and we've had we, you know, and we've we've had moments over, you know, recently on uh on you know, sort of on, you know, thinking about the brand, you know, through the lens of you know, a car manufacturer, right?
00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.880
You know, are you a Chevy, you know, are you a BMW, are you a Porsche, are you a Bugatti, right?
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:00.960
Who where, you know, where where do you sit?
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:05.920
Are you sort of and you know, from a from a from a value prop position?
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:17.199
And so, you know, I I think, you know, in my mind, we've nothing's ever changed, but but it's interesting how you find yourself coming back to these conversations more often than not.
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:26.079
And and especially once again, back to the the the theme for the you know, for our discussion today, when when things are changing, right?
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:41.920
Um, and and and so, you know, when when you know when things are changing, you know, it's you know, it's like, oh shit, does something that's core that we viewed as core, does it need to be need to change?
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:48.400
Or no, it's you know, it was built to help us actually pass through, you know, this change.
00:45:48.800 --> 00:46:05.760
But your brand evolves and like it it yours certainly has, but and it's not brand isn't really what you or the company say, it's what people conclude about your actions and your behavior and how you work.
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:17.679
So that's it's your brand doesn't live in your brand guidelines, it lives in the minds of your best customers, and you know, that's that's that's where the brand lives.
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:21.039
You can but but this is an interesting conversation, right?
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:29.360
So I so I I do tend to um I I'd say maybe on the margin, right?
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:36.639
But a great brand, I mean, you know, if you don't screw with it, like I always like to talk about Disney, right?
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.519
Disney never should I've I've said this for decades now, right?
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.599
Disney never should have bought ABC as an example, right?
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:50.320
Because Walt, you know, you know, Walt it was very clear about who Disney should be, right?
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:59.039
And it was about you know about families and making people happy and and um and obviously it was an entertainment company.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:05.119
Um and you know, there's stuff that's like just core to who Disney is, right?
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:17.199
And then, you know, it lost its way a little bit, and then Eisner and Wells came in and they, you know, really leaned into, but then you know, they went and acquired ABC and God knows what else.
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.480
And you know, the news isn't always here to make people happy.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:29.360
In fact, one you know can make a reasonable argument that people read about, you know, you know, right, people are interested, read and bleed, whatever it is, right?
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:44.880
There's just a big difference between ABC and Disney in terms of you know their go-to-market and and and what they need to do in order to remain um you know uh uh a successful you know enterprise.
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:49.599
So I I you know I I think at their core great brands, right?
00:47:50.400 --> 00:48:00.960
But it is into the history between Disney and ABC is and I'm not gonna get this 100% right, but it was like the wonderful Disney on Sunday night.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:21.360
Like Disney came to them, none of the other networks wanted anything to do with it, and Disney was like, We're gonna create an hour for you, and none of the other networks wanted to touch it, and Disney was the you know, the the worst performing, weakest network of them at the time.
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:22.320
You mean ABC?
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:23.519
Yeah, ABC, yeah.
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:24.000
Yeah, okay.
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:33.039
And took it so that that relationship goes back decades um before.
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.880
So but it is interesting, it's not at the core of the brand.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:37.519
Right.
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:40.719
And and if you look at, you mean we can go through a bunch of different brands.
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:41.679
Sure.
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:42.480
Yeah, right.
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:42.880
Yeah.
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:45.840
ESPN's in more in more interesting though, right?
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.679
Because it it it very much was entertainment.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:48.320
Entertainment.
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.199
So, you know, as opposed to right, news.
00:48:51.920 --> 00:49:00.400
Um but you know, but yeah, I'm just pushing back a little bit on I I I think great brands do not actually change that much.
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.199
But that's because they don't change that much.
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:08.800
That's it still lives in the heart and minds of their consumers.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:16.239
So, you know, I think like Budweiser has had some missed steps over the years.
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:27.280
Um, and when they get back to their core, you know, they're they're fine again, but it's like it's it's just staying consistent.
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:33.519
Like I mean, the Bud Light debacle handful of years ago was like, oh my God.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:41.199
There was an example where someone came in and just didn't think through the fact that they were insulting their primary customer base.
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:49.760
And the insult wasn't the commercial, it was the response to the commercial where where the mess up took place, right?
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:54.480
It wasn't a commercial, it was a commember that wasn't even public.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:55.920
It was like yeah, yeah.
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:57.679
Well, and then the influencer side.
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:12.800
But but on that, on that whole front, it really, you know, it wasn't, I don't think their their their their core base was like all up in arms over, you know, that it was what they what they doubled down defending that.
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:14.559
That's where you're like, wait a second, right?
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:20.960
And give an influencer a thing, and you know, was it insulted, literally insulted the customer base?
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:27.199
And so, you know, it's interesting, but I guess back to back to the change that's going on right now.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:51.280
You know, what's your what's your sense for how from specifically from a brand and positioning perspective, do you do you feel like a a significantly higher percentage of your clients are finding themselves in a at at a threshold of change because of everything that's going on in society right now and specifically with technology?
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:54.000
More so than normal?
00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:03.360
For sure, but a lot of them, I mean, we're still we still have clients that haven't adapted to consumers.
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:12.559
I mean, we see successful companies that just really haven't addressed how consumers' buyer behavior has changed.
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:24.400
I mean, and that's been a long time where you know consumers are in charge and they're you know, they're making their decision before they ever reach out to sales.
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:28.480
And some customers, some companies still don't get that.
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:33.039
Um so it's there's there's laggards everywhere.
00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:57.280
But I think you know, having that consistency and and and honesty and integrity is paramount importance, and that's so you know, the companies that realize that and address it and move along with it, it a a change a brand change can be a shift.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:59.840
It doesn't have to be a 180.
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:06.159
Um what you're doing and what you're delivering, it should be consistent, it shouldn't be a surprise.
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:13.039
Like it shouldn't be you know, and now for something, it shouldn't be you doing payroll.
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:13.599
Right.
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.719
It it it should be evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary.
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:17.920
Absolutely.
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:18.400
Yeah.
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:32.079
If a founder listening today, you know, feels stuck between the old version of their company and what's coming next and trying to figure out how to evolve as opposed to be a revolutionary, where do they begin?
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.400
They need to realize where they are.
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:41.280
Um, they need to like so name the threshold.
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.039
It's you know, where are you?
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:54.320
And just name that threshold, and then just tell the truth about what changed and what happened, and then really quickly get aligned as quickly as you can.
00:52:54.960 --> 00:53:12.880
Um and then you know, I guess clarify the priorities and the trade-offs you have to make, but then really commit to the clear narrative for the brand and be able to back it up with proof.
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:23.760
So it's and you know what when when you say quickly, since we're we've been dealing right, since we've been dealing with it, since I literally have been dealing with this in my team, right?
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:30.320
I've been dealing with this, you know, what I what I find is you know, I'm la I'm like, I'm clear, right?
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:30.880
Right.
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:42.559
And uh and let's just do this, and then, you know, and then you know, because we got a bunch of people on our leadership team, you know, someone will come up and say, dude, you're just forcing this.
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:45.760
People aren't, you know, they're they're you know, you're forcing alignment.
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.199
That's not alignment, right?
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:50.960
So obviously it depends on how many people are involved, right?
00:53:51.440 --> 00:54:04.719
Um but uh you know your experience, how swiftly can a realign, how swiftly does it typically take for a realignment?
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:10.880
Give me the, you know, don't don't include the 10% outliers in terms of really fast or super slow.
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:19.199
What's the 80% typically look like in terms of how how much effort and time it takes to realign around a change?
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:29.440
I don't think I can answer that question because by the time they come to us, there has been some acknowledgement that there's change.
00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:29.840
Yeah.
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:33.920
Where we come in.
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:37.519
So they've they they know that there's a change.
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:41.039
It takes some time to define the destination.
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:53.199
It's they they're there because that's where that's where it takes some time is really to divide define the next and the later.
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:58.320
Um and clarifying that with the leadership team in the company.
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.559
Like it doesn't take longer.
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:05.119
With us, it doesn't take longer than two months.
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:06.480
You know, it's a process.
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:07.119
Right.
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:11.840
And and it takes it sometimes, it's a lot a lot less time.
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:26.480
Um that's just and that's just you working with the leadership team, or is that you helping the leadership team actually, you know, sort of uh uh navigate the entire change process, including with the entire company?
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:29.440
We no, that's just the leadership team.
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:30.559
That's just my thought.
00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:30.800
Yeah.
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:31.280
Yeah.
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:45.840
No, that's just getting the leadership team and like nailing the positioning and aligning to what the destination is and mapping out how to get there, but rolling it out to the entire team can take a while.
00:55:46.079 --> 00:56:00.480
Um, you know, it's like you because you've got to you've got to reposition the narrative, you've got to and then before you do anything, got to get the team aligned before you activate anything through marketing or go-to-market efforts.
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:01.039
Yeah.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.159
So it's it's a process.
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:14.639
And and I it really depends on the founder and the leadership team how nimble they are and how big and how long they've been, you know, how big a boat are you turning?
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:23.039
If it's a$500 million company, it's harder to turn than a$10 million company.
00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:23.599
Yeah.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:33.519
It's just the the nimbleness and agility that is ingrained in the systems and processes over however long it took for them to get there.
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:34.159
Yeah.
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:35.440
And the culture too, right?
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:38.800
Whether a culture is used to change like this or not.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:40.239
Right.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:40.800
Yeah.
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:41.519
Yeah.
00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:42.480
Yeah.
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.599
Well, listen, I would love to spend a lot more time on this.
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:49.679
I think you and I could spend another two hours on this conversation.
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.719
But uh but we're gonna have to bring it to a close here.
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:59.119
Is there anything, you know, any parting thoughts that you'd like to love to share?
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:13.519
If you're struggling with it, a good question to ask yourself is the old story no longer matches reality because and then answer that question.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:28.000
And if get your whole leadership team to answer that question clearly, and that'll help that'll help you know make the next steps easier, you know, realizing what that is.
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:31.760
Why isn't the old story matching?
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:35.920
You know, what just look you know internally.
00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:45.119
I think I think that's that's probably the it's the simplest and hardest thing to do is to have that conversation.
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:46.320
Yeah.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:57.599
And then once and then and then once you have that conversation, I presume the next thing is now do we think we can do this on our own, or do we think we need someone to help us navigate uh this change?
00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:02.239
Because once again, as we've said earlier, you know, you can't read the label from inside a jar.
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:06.079
I think there's some wonderful in-house marketing teams.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.159
And we've worked with them.
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:10.880
Um so I'm I'm biased.
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:31.199
I think having someone outside coming in that isn't emotionally anchored to something and isn't and doesn't have the issue with internal marketing teams sometimes is they don't have the freedom to say the emperor is wearing no clothes as often.
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:38.239
They're they're like if if a client fires us or they get mad at us, okay.
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:47.599
Like we try, we tried to help, but yeah, that internal team sometimes I think they see it and it's harder for them to say it.
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:48.159
Yeah.
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:53.760
I think another another thing is, you know, sometimes it's not the team, sometimes it's the founder, right?
00:58:53.840 --> 00:59:02.480
And so, you know, a really healthy team would go in saying, look, it could be the founder, it could be the team, it could be one of the members on our team.
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:06.000
Um and you know, it doesn't really matter, right?
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:08.639
What matters is we figure out how to get aligned.
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:10.400
Absolutely.
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:11.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:11.760
Yeah.
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:18.239
Pick that vision, you know, define it, know what Nets looks like, and map to get there.
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:33.360
I mean, the rest of it, I don't want to say is easy, but the hardest part is aligning around it, picking out what it is, why it's not working, what what next is, and you know, mapping out how to get there is easy after that.
00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:36.800
Well, maybe even the harder part is just admitting you you've got a problem.
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:46.960
I mean, because you said it's like the old, you know, the the old story no longer matches reality because you answer that question, that's a hard part.
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:47.760
Yeah.
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:53.360
So David, like I said, I we could go on, man, but um and maybe we'll have a part two and a part three.
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:56.320
I I'm confident someday we'll have a part two and a part three.
00:59:56.559 --> 01:00:02.400
But um uh I'm gonna add your contact information down below, or we're gonna add it.
01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:07.519
Um, but uh if people want to get a hold of you, what's the right way to do that?
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.719
Our our website is smoke spokemarketing.com.
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.039
Um we're there.
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.400
Uh LinkedIn is always an easy way to get me.
01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:20.079
All right, cool.
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:21.599
Yeah, all right, all right.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:22.800
Thank you, my friend.
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:23.679
It was great.
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:24.239
Thanks, man.
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:24.960
I'm just a pleasure.
01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:26.719
I enjoyed all that.
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:27.599
All right.
01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:28.639
Cheers.
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:06.639
Hello, David Meyer.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.320
What's going on, Mark?
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.439
Yeah, this is this is fun.
00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:12.480
This is fun.
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:21.120
So um you and I now have known one another reasonably well.
00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:26.000
I want to say it feels like going on two years.
00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:26.800
Yeah.
00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:28.480
Maybe more, but yeah.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:29.839
Yeah, maybe more.
00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.600
And you were a client before I met you.
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:42.719
And then you were gracious enough to join a uh uh what's what do they call it, right?
00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:44.240
A focus group?
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:52.479
A focus group uh to help us think about um how to position what's going on right now.
00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:59.439
But this was literally, I want to say um 18 months ago.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:11.519
And what was fascinating about the focus group is that uh, or I should say focus groups, because we talked to like I want to say 12 or 15, maybe even more, right?
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:17.040
About what was going on with AI and where we were taking 90.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:23.680
And uh the punchline was 18 months ago, people didn't want to even hear about it, right?
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:24.959
They weren't interested.
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:35.040
They uh um generally speaking, uh they felt it was uh a disconnected with reality conversation.
00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:46.560
Um and all they wanted to do was talk about how our product could get better as it is, and um and and that part of it was revealing in and of itself, right?
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:47.200
Yeah.
00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:57.599
And uh and and uh and and and and what it what's fascinating is the topic for today's conversation is change, right?
00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.000
You and I geek out about change.
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:11.280
And just generally speaking, uh, we thought we'd have, I'd say, what I'll call a free-flowing conversation around change and what's going on in the world right now.
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:18.240
You have your vantage point, and we can talk a little bit about your business, and I have my vantage point, obviously.
00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.520
But uh uh these are fascinating times.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:27.199
And uh to paraphrase uh our friend Bob Dylan, the times they are changing.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:29.680
Come gather around people.
00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:45.520
Yeah, it's uh so for my for my friends in the audience, if you wouldn't mind, just uh uh it'd be great if you could share a little background so they got a sense for this uh this friend of mine.
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:51.840
So I've been in marketing for my entire career.
00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:56.960
Uh started spoke 17 years ago, almost 18.
00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:05.439
Um and started it because I wanted to find I wanted to create a kind of place that I wanted to work.
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:11.280
And and and I think we've been successful at that.
00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.599
Most of uh most everybody's been around most of the time.
00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:19.039
We've got seasoned professionals.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:26.639
Uh as my partner Steve says, would like we hit the nail in straight the first time without bending it all around.
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:33.520
Most most people have been I think the average tenure is probably a dozen years, and that's awesome.
00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:41.120
A few people have joined in the last few years, but it's really it's some of us have been working together 30 years.
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:43.360
It's it's just a great group of people.
00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:58.000
And our what we're great at is understanding brand messaging and positioning and setting the brand apart and telling stories.
00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.919
We say you you haven't told your story until someone else can tell it.
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:20.800
So it's really figuring out not so much what you want to say, but what they want to hear, and putting that in a in language that's clear, concise, and compelling, and then position it so hopefully the only reasonable choice for your ideal customer.
00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:22.079
And then take it from there.
00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:25.439
Just, you know, whatever the we find the fastest path to cash.
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:26.639
And it's just been a lot of fun.
00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:29.120
You know, it's funny you say the only reasonable choice.
00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.920
I think it's just a clear and compelling choice, right?
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:32.639
Yeah.
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.399
I mean, pretty much the same.
00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.639
I mean, I don't know what do you think the difference of that is?
00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:40.879
Clear and compelling or only reasonable?
00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:46.240
Uh you know, I don't know about you, but um, I'd rather be like excited about something.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.360
You know, that's a reasonable opportunity, right?
00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:50.240
Okay.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:51.920
All right.
00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:54.720
Yeah, well, hopefully it's compelling.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:55.680
Yeah.
00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:56.160
Yeah.
00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:57.120
I mean, it's what I like.
00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:20.240
You know, it's like, you know, I always like, you know, our time together because I look forward to it because we always have really energizing and interesting and uh, you know, conversations around what's going on and whether it's you know in the broader world or we're talking about you know, the world of EOS and operating systems, or we're talking about brand and marketing or or change in general.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:31.839
You know, just I always enjoy the conversations because, you know, uh there's a there's a there's there's a always a positive energy, right?
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:42.560
That you know, we're you know, the there's that, you know, we're creators, we're builders, we can do this, you know, as opposed to, you know, certain conversations.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:59.439
Uh I I remember, I think I told a story once on this podcast, but in in college, um, I fell head over heels for a woman and uh uh she kind of um rejected me after about three dates because she felt I was too optimistic.
00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:08.319
She was more of the, you know, the uh, oh, you can't be bright because you're an optimist, you know, the bright people are all the cynics.
00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:12.160
And and so I wasn't, I, you know, I wasn't her cool dude.
00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:21.680
You know, the guy with the, you know, sitting in the coffee shop bemoaning how, you know, we're all we're all gonna die.
00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:22.480
I don't know.
00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:28.879
But anyway, um, I always enjoy our conversations because you and I both are pretty optimistic about the long term.
00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:30.000
It's exciting.
00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:40.480
Like all the change, it's it well, in my in I think in every industry, I mean, your industry wasn't around, you know, hasn't been around that long.
00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:40.959
No.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:49.360
Um, but in marketing, my my first job out of college was in the yellow pages.
00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.879
Like there's been a lot of change.
00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:53.439
Yeah.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:07:07.759
I mean, I don't know how many of my you know, how many people have never seen or held a yellow page book or don't, you know, and it's like, and it's just it's been constant change from from the from go.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:08.560
Yeah.
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:10.560
And it's there's always something else.
00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:11.920
And it's just it's exciting.
00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.519
It's more I think I would get bored if there weren't constant change.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:31.040
That's why I like the industry, because working, I I've never worked in-house for a company because I don't think I'd I don't know if I'd I don't know if I'd get bored doing the same thing every day.
00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:31.600
Right.
00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:37.920
Um, yeah, but jumping from learning about all the different industries and clients and change, it's just it's been fascinating.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.079
It's been a really interesting career.
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:41.040
Yeah.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:50.720
So you and I uh were together at the uh EOS conference, which was now feels like forever ago, but probably three or so weeks ago.
00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.920
And we were chatting about, you know, uh getting together and doing this.
00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:01.199
And uh one of the things that you know you brought up is I you know, I think we should talk about change.
00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:09.040
So what was going on through your head, you know, and what has been going on through your head where you thought this would be a great conversation for us to have?
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:11.600
Well, we we look back.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.680
We're the cobbler's kids.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:17.120
Like I think most agencies are like this, cobbler's kids with no shoes.
00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.480
So we have a hard time treating ourselves as a client.
00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.079
But we we're doing a better job of it.
00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:29.040
And we looked, one of the things we we do with our clients is look at who are your best clients.
00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:30.399
I mean, it's obvious stuff.
00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:31.680
Who are your best clients?
00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:32.320
How did you get them?
00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:33.519
What happened?
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.919
Um, just looking for patterns.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:47.200
And we did that for ourselves, and we noticed that just about every time when someone came to us, they were on what we've called them thresholds of change.
00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:49.120
Something happened.
00:08:49.360 --> 00:09:22.159
Yeah, it's a new product launch, it's new leadership, it's mergers, acquisitions, it's societal change, the way customers buy, it's um environmental, whether it's environmental or AI or technology, there's some outs, there's some catalyst that um they they reach a point where the the more successful ones realize that they're at the at that inflection point and do something about it.
00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.799
And some unfortunately wait until they're in a lot of pain and there's just total misalignment.
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:36.080
And and it was just in the context of your book, I thought, you know, the the stages of company growth.
00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.720
Um there, I think there are probably some parallels.
00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:42.720
I haven't dug that much into it.
00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:59.200
Yeah, you know, your your book I I refer back to it more than I'd like to admit, but just you know, and how 90 and how your mission it's just to help people reach those if they want.
00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.720
Not that there's anything wrong with a level three company, right?
00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:03.360
Right.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:11.679
If they want to move to level four, it's it's there are these changes, there are these thresholds that they hit.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.960
Um and it's I just think there's some interesting parallels.
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.600
Yeah, no question.
00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:43.279
I and I think as we said, you know, change is all around us right now, and and uh whether, you know, whether you that change is, you know, you know that in order to turn that vision that you have into reality, you're gonna have to go through stage three, which is where a lot of companies, you know, as an example that run on EOS, um that's sort of where they like, uh right.
00:10:44.159 --> 00:11:11.679
Uh we're in this, I've I've gone out and I've hired, you know, a bunch of good subject matter experts, leaders in marketing, or leaders in sales, or leader in in product, or a leader in operations, and and and now I've got all these people, but they all came with their own playbooks, and they're not really um leaning into making sure that we're all uh you know have the same culture.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:18.799
They kind of have their subcultures going on, and the next thing you turn around and you're like, this is hard, and I don't even like this company anymore.
00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:19.840
How'd I get here?
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:32.960
And now you're like, do I do I just let these, you know, these these people just do it because you know their experience and you know, I don't really know each of their areas of expertise anymore.
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:38.000
And or do I, you know, have that founder mode moment where it's like, damn it, we gotta all get on the same page.
00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.919
And if you're not willing to get on the same page with me, then you know, I'm gonna take care of you.
00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.440
But you know, it's it's time for you to to to move on.
00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:50.639
And so, yeah, you know, each of those stages is filled with changes, right?
00:11:50.960 --> 00:12:04.720
I remember when I first encountered EOS and you know, Gino uh used to talk about, you know, every single uh, you know, business owner, founder, entrepreneur, you know, is dealing with 136 issues.
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:11.519
And if you just think about that, right, just in and and you don't categorize them or compartmentalize them, right?
00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:12.799
That's just overwhelming.
00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:33.440
But when you realize, oh, these are vision issues and these are, you know, you know, measurable issues, and these are just uh, you know, planning issues, and these are just uh, you know, you know uh meeting related issues where we got to make sure we're all on the same page given what we've all agreed to do for this quarter, you know, uh, or these are process issues, right?
00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:40.960
All of a sudden you can take these 136 and you can put them in in the six key components, and it just becomes much more manageable.
00:12:41.440 --> 00:13:00.960
And so um, but the reality is is you know, it doesn't matter whether you're at stage one or you're at stage five, or you know, you now have a multi-company holding uh structure where you're at, you know, at stage six or you're international and you've got, you know, a bunch of different brands, which is kind of stage seven, you know, there's always these issues, right?
00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:03.919
And and and there's always entropy.
00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:07.279
And so change is always is constant, right?
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:12.559
But some changes are a little bit more obvious and and and impactful than others.
00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:27.360
And uh and and and to your point, those moments where the weight of the need for change is palpable, right?
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.360
Whether it's in the brand, right?
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:34.240
Or whether it's like I said, whether it's structural or whether it's a leadership or something like that.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:43.440
I'd say 80 plus percent of the time, you know, change is driven by pain.
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.120
Yes, yeah, for sure.
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:50.799
Like that's human nature.
00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:52.080
I mean, that's psychology.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:14:00.480
And it's like people people will rush to change more to avoid plain pain than to rush to pleasure.
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.200
It's motivator, it's fear.
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:17.039
It's I mean, it's I mean, that's yeah, I mean, we're we're emotional creatures, we're big emotional meatbags and make all our decisions based on emotion.
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:19.519
Um, and then backfill it with logic.
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:27.840
And a lot of times that pain with change shows up in its lack of alignment internally.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:35.120
That's where it breaks internally before the messaging or any of the marketing changes.
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.240
It's they haven't recognized, they need to recognize it, name it, own it, address it.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:41.360
What are we gonna do?
00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.679
What has to be true for us to navigate this change?
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:47.360
Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.440
I never thought about this until just now.
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:55.039
So you know, I I try hard as an INTJ, right?
00:14:55.120 --> 00:15:04.480
So I'm an introvert, and in theory, I'm in an intuitive who thinks, you know, um, and then makes decisions quickly as a judger.
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:10.960
So in theory, you know, I'm less emotional than a feeler, right?
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:17.440
Um, so you have the thinkers versus the feelers and that third dimension of the four dimensions associated with Myers Briggs.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:23.840
And so you think that, you know, a thinker thinks that they're relatively rational.
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:31.919
But if you think about what we just said, it's actually emotion that's driving change.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:33.919
Always, right?
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:35.440
Because it's pain.
00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.679
And and and by definition, there is no pain if there is no emotion.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:46.159
Maybe I'm wrong on that one, but I'm pretty sure there's a high R square between an emotional response and pain.
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:47.039
Yeah, right.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.919
Yeah, I'm I'm an ENTP.
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.279
So But yeah, it's it's it's the emotion.
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.120
I mean, it's it's Aristotle.
00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:59.039
It's I mean, he was ethos, logos, pathos.
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.639
And it's how does it make you feel?
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:04.799
Do you trust the person, you know?
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:06.080
Did do I believe them?
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:08.080
And then how does it make you feel?
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:08.639
Yeah.
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:10.720
Um that's that's the driver.
00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.639
I think it's ethos, pathos, logos is the this the order.
00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:16.159
But it's do you trust the person?
00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.559
How does that make or the whatever it is, how does it make you feel?
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.120
And then logos logic comes last.
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:34.240
But it's interesting that um, you know, as an intuitive, I've always said that I believe emotion reveals what my subconscious is processing, right?
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:38.159
It's not, it's not particularly good at articulating it, right?
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.480
But it's like, you know, it's like something's going on.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:46.080
I can't put words to it, but I can feel it, right?
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.159
I my intuition says that there's an issue here, right?
00:16:50.480 --> 00:17:05.839
And so it's fascinating because as an intuitive thinker, right, you're relying on your emotions to give you the to help you tap into the intuitive processing that's taking place, you know, subconsciously.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:16.400
And so back to your, you know, the the emotion um uh does precede the logic oftentimes.
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.759
Emotion puts money in motion.
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.559
Yeah, yeah, because otherwise, why would you do it?
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:22.799
Right?
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.200
It's like, you know, there's so too many other things going on.
00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.039
Um how does it make you feel?
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.200
Like why did you choose whatever it is?
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:30.960
It was how you how it made you feel.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.599
Yeah.
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:32.079
Yeah.
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.200
So it's I didn't know you were so young.
00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:40.720
I I I love him.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:46.640
Um so how did the thresholds of change concept first emerge inside spoke?
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.480
I it was just a realization.
00:17:48.880 --> 00:18:03.759
It was just uh hopefully it was hopefully it can help people understand what's going on and give them a framework for how to address it or just to realize it.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.920
Sometimes just naming it helps people deal with it.
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:09.119
Oh yeah.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:25.680
And so it's like if we can help just if we can help clients or anybody just realize that they're undergoing some change and focus on how to address it, how to get ahead of it, how to stay aligned, how to make a plan.
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.759
Yeah is is that what you're finding right now?
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:38.319
Is that let's just say a team realizes that, you know, they're they're they're in the midst of change.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:44.720
And um and then the next thing is it's like, okay, so how are we going to deal with this?
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.079
Because you've now said a couple of different times, you know, there's an alignment.
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.599
It's 100%.
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:50.960
Yeah.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:19:02.960
It's I know I I know that we're we we lit, I literally at our last quarterly said we got an alignment, you know, actually before the quarterly, before the quarterly, uh, we realized we had an alignment issue.
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.920
And so we did a survey and you know, around six or seven categories.
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.640
And sure enough, right, there was an alignment issue.
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:17.519
And then we literally spent, I want to say two or three hours talking about it at our offsite, right?
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:26.960
And part of the alignment issue was around, you know, certain individuals had a uh uh, you know, they were focused on the now.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:32.799
And certain individuals were focused on, you know, six months to 12 months from now, right?
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:40.160
And and and and then I'm sitting here going, I'm I'm really focused on a year or two years or three years or five years from now, right?
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.640
And working my way backwards, and they're like, you know, no, there's too much change going on.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:47.200
Let's just align on the moment we're in.
00:19:47.359 --> 00:20:05.359
I'm like, but you know, as I've said for literally since I started the company, I'm always a woo, I'm always fearful of I call it the animal house scene where the guy pushes the conduct the the marching band leader out of the way, grabs the baton and then goes into the alley.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:09.279
It goes into the alley and everything like, you know, everything breaks up, right?
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.880
The trombones, you know, band.
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:11.839
I love that scene.
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:16.000
I'm like, dude, I do not want to be, you know, going into the alley.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.799
I don't, you know, and and and for us to go, what the hell?
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.119
Right?
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:23.039
Because I've experienced it too many times in my even with 90, right?
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.000
Where it's like, I won't even bore you with all the stories, right?
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:31.839
But it's like we talked about this, we all aligned on this, and then everybody got heads down and they forgot about it.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.200
And next thing you know, we're like, well, shit, how'd we get here?
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.000
Well, and then so I mean, not to go back to Animal House, but how could you not?
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:53.519
You they cut back to that scene later towards the end, if I recall, and everything else is going on, the band's still in the alley, there's no visionary taking them anywhere, like they just stayed there.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:54.960
Yeah, it is.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:08.240
I mean, it's always the byproduct of I think and I'm sure other agencies are the same, or other marketing or other consultants are the same.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:20.480
Where after one of our working sessions or workshops or modules, the benefit that people don't know that they're gonna get, but we almost always see is alignment.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:27.279
Yeah, they walk out with a clear it's before we'll start we start.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:45.279
One of the things we'll do is like if we're doing a messaging, um, if if their messaging positioning is off, we'll ask the leadership team, whoever's in the room, we'll give them all a a note card and say, write down the single most important thing that you guys do.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.599
Like what are you what's the what's your single most important message?
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:56.880
And I don't think we've ever had two people write the same thing.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:04.799
And it's just like I mean, and it's just like and they're all none of them are wrong.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.279
None of them are bad answers.
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.720
They're just not the same.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.359
They're just not moving in the right.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.559
They don't all have that same shared vision.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.039
And it's it's kind of fascinating.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:19.519
How many times do you think you've done this now?
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.319
We've been in business 17 years.
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:24.559
So what's your gut?
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:37.359
I mean, just just you know, for the audience's sake, what's a gut number on how many times you've done this work and seeing that the leadership team is not aligned, and what percentage of the time is the leadership not aligned?
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.200
It sounds like you're saying it's over 95%.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:41.359
Not aligned, yeah.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:41.839
Yeah.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:42.960
Absolutely.
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:43.359
Yeah.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:44.400
Absolutely.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.920
And the number of times, I mean, I'd have to look and see.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.720
I mean, we've had over, we've been in business 17 years.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:55.119
I'd have to look, but definitely over a hundred clients, right?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:55.440
Yeah.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:04.319
We tend to keep the good news is we tend to keep clients um for a long time.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:04.720
Yeah.
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.640
So, you know, we've had clients that have been with us as long as we've been in business.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:09.839
And that's crazy.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.279
Yeah, it's um there's just yeah, it's we've been very fortunate that way.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.720
There's a just a good level of trust and it's nice.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:25.200
Is it is it is well, just just to sort of finish on this one though, is it a hundred percent of the time?
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.200
Oh a hundred percent of the time.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:28.960
That's crazy, right?
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:38.640
100% like some of them might be close, but yeah, if there's if there if there are three people in the room, it's they're not aligned.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.400
And I I thought it was just me.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:51.279
Yeah, you're you are a special snowflake, but yeah, no, and it can be it's it's fascinating.
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:58.000
And I I gotta tell you, I'll be honest, like Cobbler's kids, and if I did this with our company, it'd be the same thing.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.599
Like, we're cute, and I think part of it's just there's constant change.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:15.920
And like you were like you were saying about your company, it's like we've got people focused on the doing now and people focused on doing what's next, like because we're evolving, we're constantly evolving, yeah.
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:20.960
It's and it's the messaging for us is is difficult too.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:39.279
And we're you know, it's it's by the time and this isn't unique, I don't think, to to us or to you, but by the time you come up with messaging and do whatever, and it's on your website, which is the anchor of your brand, if that takes six months, something's changed.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:39.839
Yeah.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:46.319
Well, it's like we did, we did, we did um branding work recently, I would say.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.799
And uh um, and it doesn't reflect what's going on right now.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:25:06.880
And and and and I said when we started the you know work internally, I said, guys, right, I we I think we need to to be thinking about once again, this is a you know, this whole issue around time span or of of reference, right?
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:14.559
So um, and and by the way, we can get we can bring that back to stages of development here in a second, because I think it'll it'll help folks, right?
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:23.839
But you know, my perspective was you know, we need to be thinking about where we're going to be next, not now, right?
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.319
But the work, right, that everybody aligned around was now, right?
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.440
And guess what's happened?
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.440
Next is now, right?
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.720
In no time at all.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:36.640
In in no time at all, right?
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:39.519
And um, and it's and it's going super fast, right?
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:54.960
And then and and and to be specific, you know, we are now in um the uh uh beta to close beta, but and if you're interested, if you're a client, you're welcome to join our beta, right?
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.880
But we're in a closed beta right now with what we call ask mass.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:08.799
And so ask mas is uh the culmination of over two years worth of work, where it's really why we raised the Series B, right?
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:23.759
Ask MAS, you just ask MAS anything about what's going on in your company, and whatever is in the operating system, you know, whatever's in 90s operating system or whatever's connected to 90s operating systems through integrations, AskMAS can interrogate, right?
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.400
So you can ask MAS as an example.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:38.000
Um, you know, do are the rocks that we, you know, we are that we've selected for the quarter, um, you know, what percentage of them are aligned with, you know, with our goals for the year?
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.160
Um, do we have any rocks that are duplicative as an example, right?
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.640
You can ask MAS which parts of your organization are not having effective weekly meetings.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.039
You can ask MAS anything, right?
00:26:49.599 --> 00:27:03.839
And um and it can see because it, you know, because we took two years to figure out how to connect everything in the system to this, you know, to this brain, for lack of a better phrase, right?
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:19.839
That can that can see and and it not just can see, but then it's like, all right, Maz, can you create, you know, um an issue for me uh for the senior leadership team that says, hey, we got it, you know, we got five rocks that are duplicative or in conflict, right?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:29.680
Or, you know, create a create a to-do for me to go talk to Joe because you know, Joe's team's not, they're not, they're they're not updating their KPIs, right?
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.359
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:41.359
And so, and so, but the brand didn't really, you know, contemplate um work, you know, ask mass being in the world yet, right?
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:53.039
So um, so it's it's it's interesting, right, back to the way I like to look at this stuff, and and I think the alignment tension comes in here, right?
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.519
Is there's now, next, later, and never, right?
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:04.000
And and all three of those, four of those categories, right, or buckets are really important.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:14.079
You know, the never stuff, there's people who there are people who just you know constantly bring something that that's like they think it's a cool idea, and it's like, no, that doesn't make any sense.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:23.839
Or they or they want to have you know your ICP, instead of your ICP being being very focused, they want your ICP to be, you know, your your personas, right?
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.640
That that you you know, it's like, no, guys, there are a big difference between the personas that we support, right?
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:36.319
So we obviously we have visionaries and we have integrators and you know, we have leadership team members and we have team leaders and we have individual contributors.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:38.240
They're all individual personas, right?
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:43.759
And then you can even go in and start, you know, cutting this all up by stage of development, by industry.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.240
I mean, you could personify the hell out of everything, right?
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.319
And eventually, and it matters, right?
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.960
Because ultimately, you know, our software knows who you are, right?
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.599
So they know what seat you're sitting in, right?
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.160
They they know what company you're sitting in, right?
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:09.920
They know what industry your your guys are in, they know which stage you're I mean, really you can get super, super, you know, like laser focused with your personas, but they're personas, right?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.559
They're not, you know, they're they're heuristics for helping us communicate better.
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.000
And I could go on, right?
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:17.680
But they're not our ICPs.
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.119
And so you have these fights, uh, I say fights, right?
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:26.880
But you know, we do have these battles every now and then around personas versus ICPs, as an example.
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:28.559
And it's like, come on, guys, right?
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.039
We're not like this is in the never, right?
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:38.160
The ICP is forever turning, having 20 ICPs is in the never bucket, right?
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:43.920
But in there are a bunch of different examples, like never, we're never gonna be, you know, a payroll processing company.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:45.839
It's in the never bucket, right?
00:29:47.039 --> 00:30:09.519
But getting people aligned on now, next, later, and never, um, across, you know, brand, across product offering, across structure, across, you know, the things that are important for you to win the stage of development you're in right now, right?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.079
Um, it sounds so easy.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:21.920
I mean, every time you roll out a new feature or a new update or new anything, like how do you guys how do you guys handle that?
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.799
Like what's what's that look like for you?
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.519
Well, those are really interesting conversations, right?
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:40.640
Because now with you know, agents and technology being the way it is, um, you know, the way the the way that we'll do it in three months is gonna be different than the way we're doing it right now, right?
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.640
So that's and and but that's now next, not now.
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:45.599
Right.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:51.200
And so that's your classic issue as a as a founder, as a visionary, as a CEO.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.119
It's like, hey guys, right?
00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:00.640
Next we're gonna start working on transitioning to leveraging, you know, agents to do this kind of work as an example.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.440
That doesn't mean we're doing it now, right?
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.079
And uh so don't freak out about it, right?
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:14.400
And it may be that we get into the next quarterly planning session and we don't have uh we don't have the resources to do it, you know, to make it now.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.599
So it's gonna sit in the next category, right?
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:48.319
Lots of stories around, you know, founders, CEOs, visionaries, whatever you want to call them, you know, just thinking out loud and all of a sudden people running and or or even some of my senior colleagues, um, you know, we've got some stories within our company where, you know, someone will come up with an idea, and the next thing you know, and because they're a senior, you know, they've been here for, you know, you know, since very early on and highly respected, it's like, well, we're gonna go execute on that.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.720
It's like, no, we don't have the resources to execute on that.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:57.359
But the next thing you know, you're sitting there and people are complaining because so-and-so has you know, asked us to do this stuff.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.400
And I'm like, but we don't have the resources for it.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.440
Why are you even thinking about it?
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:02.559
Why didn't you bring that to me?
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:11.519
So, you know, this now, this now, next later and never um stuff, I think is is very important for alignment, right?
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:24.319
Because I think a lot of times if you if you don't have the discipline around those four buckets, you you will end up fighting over stuff that you're really not as disconnected on as you think you are.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.480
It's just a question of timing, right?
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:34.400
But there are a lot of people, you know, who I think predominantly live in the now, right?
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.799
Even even on your leadership team, right?
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:39.680
And, you know, that's back to the stages of development.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.200
You know, that first stage is, you know, that's all about now, right?
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:45.680
Stage one, product market fit, that's now, right?
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:58.160
Are we are we figuring out how to how to get this so that people actually think this is uh something they'd be willing to to buy and and spend money on and and spend enough on so that we have a commercially viable business.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:01.039
And and so that's you know, zero to ninety days, right?
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:02.799
That's your that's now.
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:10.480
And then, and then when once you have that in place, uh now you can move to having a now and a next, right?
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:16.799
So the now is the is is is sort of this current 90 days, and the next is the next quarter, right?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.200
We're not gonna worry about this until next quarter.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:27.839
And and and that next quarter person, you need you know, needs to be someone who's, you know, that's sort of like your second layer of your organization, right?
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:34.799
So your first layer of your organization is all about the zero to ninety, second layer of the organization is about the ninety to three sixty.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:44.799
And so, you know, so and and you can say that that 90 to 180 is is is all about the next, and then everything else is in the later or the never.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:51.279
And then and then as you stack the next layer, it's one to two years, the next layer is two to five, and the next layer is five to ten.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:59.519
And now, you know, you'll have people like me who are sitting here in the five to ten, and you know, I'm like, I'm not worried.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:06.000
If you're dragging me into now, then um fair enough.
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:07.599
I'll I'll I'll solve for it.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.800
But you need to know my brain's not in now, right?
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:11.119
Right.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:14.320
And, you know, and my brain really isn't in next.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.800
My brain is almost always in later.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:38.800
And so, you know, you can you, you know, I'm willing to help on now and and and and next, but you know, but and then I'm trying to do my best to understand that, you know, you're either, you know, yeah, if you're on the senior leadership team, you should be, you know, pretty much in the in the in the later category, but managing your people in the next and the now categories really, really well.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:44.480
But um alignment around now, next, later, and and and never super important.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:51.599
What other areas do you see people struggling with in terms of alignment?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.199
I think it's having clarity.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:57.039
I think it's there's almost information overload.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:06.880
Um and there it's like there's information everywhere, and it's just creating that clarity around it and having the confidence.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.599
Um and that confidence will build trust.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:18.079
Aaron Powell When you're helping teams, and it's interesting, you talked about, you know, you've had clients now for decades, right?
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:28.719
When you when you're helping your clients, do you find that you're visiting alignment how often?
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:32.079
Is it 90 days, 180 days, once a year?
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.280
How often are you all getting back in?
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.400
We meet with clients at least quarterly.
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:42.639
I mean, we meet with them more often, but like we're not sitting in on their quarterlies.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:56.400
I think to answer your previous question, and it's the biggest mistake we see around when when alignment's off is that people throw more tactics at it.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.400
They it's it's that like that's gonna solve it.
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:02.480
It's like more this, more that.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.519
And it's like that is absolutely not the answer.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:10.400
Like more, it's just it's it amplifies the problem instead of fixes it.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.239
Yeah, it's interesting, right?
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:20.639
We uh I've noticed that is especially when there's this core, like really important work that needs to be done, right?
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:26.239
And then there's uh yeah, it this this sounds like the asshole founder, right?
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.559
Then there's this performative work, right?
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:32.639
Where people are working just to stay busy, but it's not really good work, right?
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:47.119
And so um I think there's, you know, if you can have a way to sort of understand like the ratio of performative versus like really important work that's going on, that's probably tells you something, right?
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:50.880
It either tells you that you have too many people, right?
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.480
Or that there's misalignment.
00:36:54.559 --> 00:37:12.880
And so people are just trying to appear busy so that they don't have to address the real issue, which is we're not all on the same page, and so the work you're doing, the work we're doing collectively, isn't actually as powerful as if we were all on the same page.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.480
And yeah, and more isn't always better.
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:22.559
And no, it's like uh it's you know, we're back to AI.
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.239
It doesn't it's a great tool.
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:30.960
Um, it doesn't help you think better.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:33.840
It exposes bad thinking faster.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:45.280
Yeah, and it's like doing more of bad is worse, and it's and it's like and then there's the authenticity angle.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:58.000
Um consumers consents, it's it's that synthetic sheen of AI thinking that lacks, I think you know, now more than ever, that that human element.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:05.360
So that that shared vision is and that clarity is all grounded in humanity.
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.760
Um it's and then back to the feeling and the emotion.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:16.960
What when you think about feeling and emotion, in particular, sort of with founders or CEOs, visionaries, whatever we want to call here, right?
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:31.039
Um what do what do these leaders mostly get wrong during these threshold moments where change is here, but they may not be competently addressing it.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:36.159
I there's an attachment to what got them there.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:41.920
Yeah there's and again, it's making it's an emotional decision.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:50.960
They're emotionally attached to what it was, and the the good ones are ready to embrace what it is and what it's gonna be.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:39:05.119
But it's it's like you know, dragging an acre through the sand sometimes and having really frank conversations with people, which is sometimes hard, but has to be done.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:13.360
But it's it's that um emotional connection to what was and what got them there, and like this is my baby, yeah.
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:19.599
Like, and sometimes kids move off and go to college and or whatever.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:30.239
There's a chance it's not always gonna be, you know, so um it's I think it's that emotional tie to the with the founder where they just get stuck.
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:59.519
What percentage of the time is the struggle with change resting at the founder's level, an individual within the leadership team's level, or at the leadership team, generally speaking, aligned against the founder, right?
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:01.920
I was going indifferent.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.960
I think the answer where I thought you were gonna go is having the whole team aligned.
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:12.320
I think Right.
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:13.199
So it's not a line.
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:14.559
We've already agreed it's not a line.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:28.719
Now the question is if we get the leader and the leadership team aligned, the the thing that breaks is outside of the leadership team and communicating that throughout the organization.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:35.199
And so it's I mean, I add to your first question, is it the leadership team or the founder?
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:38.480
Or or an individual on the leadership team, right?
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:45.440
Because I think you could, you know, you could kind of have, you know, maybe those, you know, if you think about that as a pie, as a percentage of the pie, right?
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:47.599
I think the founder's obviously easy, right?
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:56.880
The leadership team generally, and when I say leadership team, I mean multiple members of the leadership team being, you know, sort of against what the founder wants to do, right?
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:58.079
Back to alignment.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:02.000
Or there's just one member of the leadership team who's like, you know.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:07.199
It's one member of the leadership team, is probably what we see most.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:08.159
Mostly.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.679
And not the founder?
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:16.400
The founder will come along before, you know, every member of the leadership team.
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:23.280
That's been your ex But your experience is when you're going through these misalignment, realignment moments.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:31.280
Once again, and I hate to be sort of pushing on a an answer here, but I'm curious I'm curious, right?
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.480
Is it is it is it typically the founder?
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:42.639
Is it typically one member, or is it typically a bunch of the leadership team against the founder?
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:47.519
That is the problem?
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:48.639
Yes.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:52.239
Where the misalignment uh exists.
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.000
I think I think it's getting it's one or two members of the leadership team.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:06.320
I think whether it's the founder or the majority of the leadership team and the leadership teams that we work with are great.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.320
And they can see things that the founder doesn't.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:28.639
And most good founders that we've worked with, we've been fortunate, um, can see it, might take some time and embrace it, but getting the whole team uh aligned around it takes longer.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:33.599
That's you know, getting the the stragglers on board, I think takes longer.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:39.599
I think most founders, at some point you realize you have some self-awareness, it's like you can't smell your own breath.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:42.400
Like, like someone needs to tell you.
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:42.880
Yeah.
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:43.760
Yeah.
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.320
And most good founders are are open to that.
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.000
You know, they have to be.
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:50.480
Yeah.
00:42:50.800 --> 00:43:01.679
Once they get to a certain size, certainly, whether it's the leadership team or a board or whatever, you you have to Yeah, I mean, other otherwise you're you know, you're you're gonna fail eventually, right?
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:10.800
If you you know, you know, we it's a it's you know, it's a reason a lot of, you know, whether it's you know having someone with you with your expertise and and wisdom, right?
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.440
Or whether it's having you know a coach, right?
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:18.719
You can't read the label from inside the jar, is the expression we use that you use the you can't smell your own breath, right?
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:27.119
But ultimately, you know, if you're I would I would say if you're a reasonably intelligent founder, right, you want to do what's right for the long run.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:36.559
And and you know, a lot, and especially if you're not not just a founder, but you know, you you you're a significant, you know, if not the entire shareholder base, right?
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.360
I mean, you you're you're not stupid.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:47.679
Um, and the reality is you want to do what's right, but but sometimes you know you're you're locked into something more than you think you are.
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:59.679
Well, and my guess, not having ever sat on your leadership teams, is that one of the jobs and what makes your leadership team great is they probably reel you.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.599
You in sometimes.
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:05.840
But that's their job.
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:08.480
So that's I mean, so there's an alignment thing too.
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:16.719
So it's whether it's it's pushing you out or pulling you in, it's that it's that right tension between now and next and later.
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:17.280
Yeah.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:17.840
Exactly.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:18.239
Yeah.
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:26.639
And I and and and that's usually like I said earlier, I we have had fights over ICP as an example, right?
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:28.079
Over the years.
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:33.519
And um which to me is crazy because in my mind it's always been the same.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.199
It's never changed, right?
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:40.079
But um but you know, we we we've had moments, right?
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:54.079
And and we've had we, you know, and we've we've had moments over, you know, recently on uh on you know, sort of on, you know, thinking about the brand, you know, through the lens of you know, a car manufacturer, right?
00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.880
You know, are you a Chevy, you know, are you a BMW, are you a Porsche, are you a Bugatti, right?
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:00.960
Who where, you know, where where do you sit?
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:05.920
Are you sort of and you know, from a from a from a value prop position?
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:17.199
And so, you know, I I think, you know, in my mind, we've nothing's ever changed, but but it's interesting how you find yourself coming back to these conversations more often than not.
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:26.079
And and especially once again, back to the the the theme for the you know, for our discussion today, when when things are changing, right?
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:41.920
Um, and and and so, you know, when when you know when things are changing, you know, it's you know, it's like, oh shit, does something that's core that we viewed as core, does it need to be need to change?
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:48.400
Or no, it's you know, it was built to help us actually pass through, you know, this change.
00:45:48.800 --> 00:46:05.760
But your brand evolves and like it it yours certainly has, but and it's not brand isn't really what you or the company say, it's what people conclude about your actions and your behavior and how you work.
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:17.679
So that's it's your brand doesn't live in your brand guidelines, it lives in the minds of your best customers, and you know, that's that's that's where the brand lives.
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:21.039
You can but but this is an interesting conversation, right?
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:29.360
So I so I I do tend to um I I'd say maybe on the margin, right?
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:36.639
But a great brand, I mean, you know, if you don't screw with it, like I always like to talk about Disney, right?
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.519
Disney never should I've I've said this for decades now, right?
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.599
Disney never should have bought ABC as an example, right?
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:50.320
Because Walt, you know, you know, Walt it was very clear about who Disney should be, right?
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:59.039
And it was about you know about families and making people happy and and um and obviously it was an entertainment company.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:05.119
Um and you know, there's stuff that's like just core to who Disney is, right?
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:17.199
And then, you know, it lost its way a little bit, and then Eisner and Wells came in and they, you know, really leaned into, but then you know, they went and acquired ABC and God knows what else.
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.480
And you know, the news isn't always here to make people happy.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:29.360
In fact, one you know can make a reasonable argument that people read about, you know, you know, right, people are interested, read and bleed, whatever it is, right?
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:44.880
There's just a big difference between ABC and Disney in terms of you know their go-to-market and and and what they need to do in order to remain um you know uh uh a successful you know enterprise.
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:49.599
So I I you know I I think at their core great brands, right?
00:47:50.400 --> 00:48:00.960
But it is into the history between Disney and ABC is and I'm not gonna get this 100% right, but it was like the wonderful Disney on Sunday night.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:21.360
Like Disney came to them, none of the other networks wanted anything to do with it, and Disney was like, We're gonna create an hour for you, and none of the other networks wanted to touch it, and Disney was the you know, the the worst performing, weakest network of them at the time.
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:22.320
You mean ABC?
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:23.519
Yeah, ABC, yeah.
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:24.000
Yeah, okay.
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:33.039
And took it so that that relationship goes back decades um before.
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.880
So but it is interesting, it's not at the core of the brand.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:37.519
Right.
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:40.719
And and if you look at, you mean we can go through a bunch of different brands.
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:41.679
Sure.
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:42.480
Yeah, right.
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:42.880
Yeah.
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:45.840
ESPN's in more in more interesting though, right?
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.679
Because it it it very much was entertainment.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:48.320
Entertainment.
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.199
So, you know, as opposed to right, news.
00:48:51.920 --> 00:49:00.400
Um but you know, but yeah, I'm just pushing back a little bit on I I I think great brands do not actually change that much.
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.199
But that's because they don't change that much.
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:08.800
That's it still lives in the heart and minds of their consumers.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:16.239
So, you know, I think like Budweiser has had some missed steps over the years.
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:27.280
Um, and when they get back to their core, you know, they're they're fine again, but it's like it's it's just staying consistent.
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:33.519
Like I mean, the Bud Light debacle handful of years ago was like, oh my God.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:41.199
There was an example where someone came in and just didn't think through the fact that they were insulting their primary customer base.
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:49.760
And the insult wasn't the commercial, it was the response to the commercial where where the mess up took place, right?
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:54.480
It wasn't a commercial, it was a commember that wasn't even public.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:55.920
It was like yeah, yeah.
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:57.679
Well, and then the influencer side.
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:12.800
But but on that, on that whole front, it really, you know, it wasn't, I don't think their their their their core base was like all up in arms over, you know, that it was what they what they doubled down defending that.
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:14.559
That's where you're like, wait a second, right?
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:20.960
And give an influencer a thing, and you know, was it insulted, literally insulted the customer base?
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:27.199
And so, you know, it's interesting, but I guess back to back to the change that's going on right now.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:51.280
You know, what's your what's your sense for how from specifically from a brand and positioning perspective, do you do you feel like a a significantly higher percentage of your clients are finding themselves in a at at a threshold of change because of everything that's going on in society right now and specifically with technology?
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:54.000
More so than normal?
00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:03.360
For sure, but a lot of them, I mean, we're still we still have clients that haven't adapted to consumers.
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:12.559
I mean, we see successful companies that just really haven't addressed how consumers' buyer behavior has changed.
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:24.400
I mean, and that's been a long time where you know consumers are in charge and they're you know, they're making their decision before they ever reach out to sales.
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:28.480
And some customers, some companies still don't get that.
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:33.039
Um so it's there's there's laggards everywhere.
00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:57.280
But I think you know, having that consistency and and and honesty and integrity is paramount importance, and that's so you know, the companies that realize that and address it and move along with it, it a a change a brand change can be a shift.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:59.840
It doesn't have to be a 180.
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:06.159
Um what you're doing and what you're delivering, it should be consistent, it shouldn't be a surprise.
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:13.039
Like it shouldn't be you know, and now for something, it shouldn't be you doing payroll.
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:13.599
Right.
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.719
It it it should be evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary.
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:17.920
Absolutely.
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:18.400
Yeah.
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:32.079
If a founder listening today, you know, feels stuck between the old version of their company and what's coming next and trying to figure out how to evolve as opposed to be a revolutionary, where do they begin?
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.400
They need to realize where they are.
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:41.280
Um, they need to like so name the threshold.
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.039
It's you know, where are you?
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:54.320
And just name that threshold, and then just tell the truth about what changed and what happened, and then really quickly get aligned as quickly as you can.
00:52:54.960 --> 00:53:12.880
Um and then you know, I guess clarify the priorities and the trade-offs you have to make, but then really commit to the clear narrative for the brand and be able to back it up with proof.
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:23.760
So it's and you know what when when you say quickly, since we're we've been dealing right, since we've been dealing with it, since I literally have been dealing with this in my team, right?
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:30.320
I've been dealing with this, you know, what I what I find is you know, I'm la I'm like, I'm clear, right?
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:30.880
Right.
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:42.559
And uh and let's just do this, and then, you know, and then you know, because we got a bunch of people on our leadership team, you know, someone will come up and say, dude, you're just forcing this.
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:45.760
People aren't, you know, they're they're you know, you're forcing alignment.
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.199
That's not alignment, right?
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:50.960
So obviously it depends on how many people are involved, right?
00:53:51.440 --> 00:54:04.719
Um but uh you know your experience, how swiftly can a realign, how swiftly does it typically take for a realignment?
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:10.880
Give me the, you know, don't don't include the 10% outliers in terms of really fast or super slow.
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:19.199
What's the 80% typically look like in terms of how how much effort and time it takes to realign around a change?
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:29.440
I don't think I can answer that question because by the time they come to us, there has been some acknowledgement that there's change.
00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:29.840
Yeah.
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:33.920
Where we come in.
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:37.519
So they've they they know that there's a change.
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:41.039
It takes some time to define the destination.
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:53.199
It's they they're there because that's where that's where it takes some time is really to divide define the next and the later.
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:58.320
Um and clarifying that with the leadership team in the company.
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.559
Like it doesn't take longer.
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:05.119
With us, it doesn't take longer than two months.
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:06.480
You know, it's a process.
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:07.119
Right.
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:11.840
And and it takes it sometimes, it's a lot a lot less time.
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:26.480
Um that's just and that's just you working with the leadership team, or is that you helping the leadership team actually, you know, sort of uh uh navigate the entire change process, including with the entire company?
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:29.440
We no, that's just the leadership team.
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:30.559
That's just my thought.
00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:30.800
Yeah.
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:31.280
Yeah.
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:45.840
No, that's just getting the leadership team and like nailing the positioning and aligning to what the destination is and mapping out how to get there, but rolling it out to the entire team can take a while.
00:55:46.079 --> 00:56:00.480
Um, you know, it's like you because you've got to you've got to reposition the narrative, you've got to and then before you do anything, got to get the team aligned before you activate anything through marketing or go-to-market efforts.
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:01.039
Yeah.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.159
So it's it's a process.
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:14.639
And and I it really depends on the founder and the leadership team how nimble they are and how big and how long they've been, you know, how big a boat are you turning?
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:23.039
If it's a$500 million company, it's harder to turn than a$10 million company.
00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:23.599
Yeah.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:33.519
It's just the the nimbleness and agility that is ingrained in the systems and processes over however long it took for them to get there.
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:34.159
Yeah.
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:35.440
And the culture too, right?
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:38.800
Whether a culture is used to change like this or not.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:40.239
Right.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:40.800
Yeah.
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:41.519
Yeah.
00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:42.480
Yeah.
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.599
Well, listen, I would love to spend a lot more time on this.
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:49.679
I think you and I could spend another two hours on this conversation.
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.719
But uh but we're gonna have to bring it to a close here.
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:59.119
Is there anything, you know, any parting thoughts that you'd like to love to share?
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:13.519
If you're struggling with it, a good question to ask yourself is the old story no longer matches reality because and then answer that question.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:28.000
And if get your whole leadership team to answer that question clearly, and that'll help that'll help you know make the next steps easier, you know, realizing what that is.
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:31.760
Why isn't the old story matching?
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:35.920
You know, what just look you know internally.
00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:45.119
I think I think that's that's probably the it's the simplest and hardest thing to do is to have that conversation.
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:46.320
Yeah.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:57.599
And then once and then and then once you have that conversation, I presume the next thing is now do we think we can do this on our own, or do we think we need someone to help us navigate uh this change?
00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:02.239
Because once again, as we've said earlier, you know, you can't read the label from inside a jar.
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:06.079
I think there's some wonderful in-house marketing teams.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.159
And we've worked with them.
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:10.880
Um so I'm I'm biased.
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:31.199
I think having someone outside coming in that isn't emotionally anchored to something and isn't and doesn't have the issue with internal marketing teams sometimes is they don't have the freedom to say the emperor is wearing no clothes as often.
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:38.239
They're they're like if if a client fires us or they get mad at us, okay.
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:47.599
Like we try, we tried to help, but yeah, that internal team sometimes I think they see it and it's harder for them to say it.
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:48.159
Yeah.
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:53.760
I think another another thing is, you know, sometimes it's not the team, sometimes it's the founder, right?
00:58:53.840 --> 00:59:02.480
And so, you know, a really healthy team would go in saying, look, it could be the founder, it could be the team, it could be one of the members on our team.
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:06.000
Um and you know, it doesn't really matter, right?
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:08.639
What matters is we figure out how to get aligned.
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:10.400
Absolutely.
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:11.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:11.760
Yeah.
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:18.239
Pick that vision, you know, define it, know what Nets looks like, and map to get there.
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:33.360
I mean, the rest of it, I don't want to say is easy, but the hardest part is aligning around it, picking out what it is, why it's not working, what what next is, and you know, mapping out how to get there is easy after that.
00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:36.800
Well, maybe even the harder part is just admitting you you've got a problem.
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:46.960
I mean, because you said it's like the old, you know, the the old story no longer matches reality because you answer that question, that's a hard part.
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:47.760
Yeah.
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:53.360
So David, like I said, I we could go on, man, but um and maybe we'll have a part two and a part three.
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:56.320
I I'm confident someday we'll have a part two and a part three.
00:59:56.559 --> 01:00:02.400
But um uh I'm gonna add your contact information down below, or we're gonna add it.
01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:07.519
Um, but uh if people want to get a hold of you, what's the right way to do that?
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.719
Our our website is smoke spokemarketing.com.
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.039
Um we're there.
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.400
Uh LinkedIn is always an easy way to get me.
01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:20.079
All right, cool.
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:21.599
Yeah, all right, all right.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:22.800
Thank you, my friend.
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:23.679
It was great.
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:24.239
Thanks, man.
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:24.960
I'm just a pleasure.
01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:26.719
I enjoyed all that.
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:27.599
All right.
01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:28.639
Cheers.
