Episode 02 - Bernard Tam

For Context: Bernard Tam

Episode # 02

🎙️ Episode Overview

In this episode of For Context, Bernard Tam joins Luke and Gino to discuss contextual theology. Bernard had just turned in the first draft of his dissertation for the Doctorate in Ministry in Contextual Theology program at Northern Seminary. On this episode, they discuss a bit of the program’s impact on Bernard, life and ministry in Toronto, and Bernard’s dissertation. Listen in!

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Bernard Tam: The Living Room Church

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

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Episode Transcript

Gino Curcuruto:

I am Gino Curcuruto.

Luke Stehr:

I’m Luke Stehr.

Gino Curcuruto:

And you’re listening to For Context,

Luke Stehr:

A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology.

Gino Curcuruto:

Welcome back to For Context. This episode we have as our guest, Bernard Tam. He’s a pastor and he’s finishing up the Contextual Theology program at Northern. He just, I believe he’s submitted his, a draft of his thesis. So he’s going to be, he lives in Toronto. I’m probably saying that wrong. They probably say Toronto, Canada, Ontario, Canada. And he’s a dear friend of mine. I’m excited to have this conversation with him and Luke. So listen in. We are Fitch really critiqued how we don’t have a radio dynamic. So I thought just a flat line silent introduction would be a really cool way to start this episode. Now welcome back to For Context. I’m Gino with Luke and

Luke Stehr:

I’m here.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, good, good, good.

Luke Stehr:

Dave Fitch was right to critique our radio dynamic.

Gino Curcuruto:

He was, we’re more contextual theologians than performers. So that’s a little juke there. Got him,

Luke Stehr:

Got him. But today we’ve got Bernard Tam with us and I’m so glad Bernard could be here. Bernard, I think I’ve met you exactly once in real life.

Bernard Tam:

Yes.

Luke Stehr:

But it’s really great to be with you digitally again, so thanks for joining us.

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to just chat and hang out.

Luke Stehr:

Yeah, well if you can’t tell from the accent. Bernard, where are you from?

Bernard Tam:

I’m from Toronto, Canada.

Luke Stehr:

Not Toronto.

Gino Curcuruto:

It’s not Toronto.

Bernard Tam:

Some people can call it that,

Luke Stehr:

Who? Who may call it Toronto,

Bernard Tam:

The un-Torontonians.

Gino Curcuruto:

Ah us.

Luke Stehr:

It’s a Shibboleth, so

Gino Curcuruto:

That’s good. That’s good. Well, I want to tell you, I want to say before we jump into the questions, Bernard and I have become friends because of this program. In some ways we were introduced through Fitch for something else. We’re both part of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, but then through our overlap in seminars when I was in the master’s program, we’d hang out and got to spend some time with him and then we’ve become friends. So I’m excited to see you though. I do talk to you regularly. I’m excited to see you. I am also excited for you to share about your experience in the Contextual Theology program. I understand you have just submitted your final thesis.

Bernard Tam:

First draft. Yes

Gino Curcuruto:

First draft. Okay.

Bernard Tam:

Waiting for all the critiques and the red marks.

Luke Stehr:

Well maybe you can talk some of it out now and those critiques and red marks won’t feel so bad when they come. You’ll think, oh, I should have done that maybe.

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, we’ll see how it goes.

Luke Stehr:

But why don’t you tell us just about your ministry context and your church structure?

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, totally. I’m part of a church called the Living Room Church. It’s in what is known as Midtown Toronto. So just imagine the city of Toronto and then you draw a giant circle around kind of the core. We’re kind almost dead set in the middle,

So we’re kind of straddling the urban center and what eventually becomes a suburbs. So we’re kind of like this unique space where interestingly in my research, it’s really hard for people to define. It’s almost like a little bit of a nebulous space that people are constantly trying to figure out the definition, but it’s just never a clear one, but in the midst of it. So I’ve been a part of this community for about 13 years and over the last 10 we’ve been kind of emerging into a network of house churches and part of which is just realizing where our points of connections with our neighborhood is that it’s actually not necessarily a Sunday service that people are looking for, but it’s the deep relationality in our living room that people have an openness and a willingness to kind of embrace and engage with one another. So we’ve been doing that for a little bit. We’re still learning. I feel like it’s never a simple, you don’t just do one thing and that’s it. There’s always learning, there’s always changes.

So we are kind of coming at it with humility as much as we can. What’s kind of unique about our neighborhood is often it used to be known, so the main intersection of our neighborhoods called Yonge and Eglington, and it was once known as the young and the eligible because it was actually where it was a little bit more affordable. The young urban professionals are able to move in and they’re all singles and they’re all trying to figure out life in this big city. But now over the last couple of years, it’s really has changed. The neighborhood is very diversified. It’s not young and eligible anymore. When we first moved in, we were worried I had a 2-year-old. Then we’re like, oh, is he going to have any friends young and eligible? There’s gonna be no kids? And then all of a sudden an explosion happened and there’s so many kids in our neighborhood to the point where some of the new developments in our community have signs that says, even though you are going to be living beside a school, your kids will not guarantee a spot in the school. Wow. That’s kind of how crazy it gets, but it’s been beautiful to see kind of the intermingling, the mixture of culture in our neighborhood.

When I go pick up my kids from school, English is not the common language for you to hear. There’s people from all over, from Europe, from Asia, from Latin America, and there’s this kind of become this eclectic mixture of culture in our community. And so it’s been a gift and a fascinating space to do ministry and learn.

Luke Stehr:

Yeah. What do you feel like as you’ve been in that neighborhood for quite some time now, what are some of the things that as you sit in that space that have emerged for you just as you’ve learned to listen to what’s happening there?

Bernard Tam:

I think one of the things that I’ve observed and learned, and maybe it’s been unearthed through many conversations, is the deep longing for relationships. Just the depth of loneliness living in the city is exposed through many conversations. So I remember when we first moved down into the neighborhood, I was really inspired by Caesar Kalinowski. There was a post that he put about how he was new to the city, I think it was New York, and he just threw himself a welcome to the Neighborhood party. He knows nobody. I’m like, that’s a brilliant idea, let me do that. And so we did. And with Fear and Trembling and my cute 2-year-old in my arm, I made up these little flyers and just passed around the neighborhood like, Hey, hosting this thing, I want to get to know the neighborhood and weren’t sure if anybody going to show up.

I remember it’s like we were doing it at six o’clock and by 5:55 nobody was there and 6:10, nobody was there like, oh man, maybe this is just like Susan and I and my son and that’s it. And then all of a sudden neighbors kind of start coming out. I think at the end we had about 30 or 40 people that had come by the row. So I live in this townhouse complex and in the midst of some of those conversations, one really resonated with me. There was a lady who came up to me later and said, I lived here for seven years, but I have not met so many neighbors tonight. And more and more in these kind of conversations, there’s just this realization that I think everybody’s longing for relationship, but there’s no catalyst for that. There’s nobody to set the table for people to be together to curate the spaces for conversations, to even just be the one to draw people together in the common space. And so I think that was probably one of the biggest learning amongst the hidden socioeconomic realities in urban centers. So there’s just a lot of complexities I find once you’re actually living in the neighborhood.

Gino Curcuruto:

Speak more to that, Bernard. When you look at the changes in your neighborhood, and as you have just explored your context over the years, has that affected the way that you organize as a church or what you do as a church?

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, I think that’s a good question. I think in some ways it has kind of drawn us to think about where and who are the population that God might be opening spaces and doors for us as a church to connect and engage with. One of which I think it’s the doors that open for the marginalized seniors in our community. As I mentioned before, this neighborhood was known as the young ineligible urban professionals. They are lively now. We have a lot of young families. But at the same time, being in this community, we also gotten to know there are hidden communities within a community. So we have actually found out that there’s seven subsidized housing, city subsidized housing complexes. And actually of the seven, there’s actually a couple that are mainly for seniors. And so we’ve, through the years, started building relationship with some of these buildings and some of the seniors and through which I think we realized that, oh, God might be inviting us into these spaces to be ones who are bearing the good news to be Christ as we are entering these buildings. So that was actually quite a big shift at our church to see not just doing church with our kind of younger, we do have an intergenerational group, a group of 40 people, so it’s as intergenerational as you can get with 40 people.

But the beauty is, I think when we have these relationships and then conversations begin and through one conversation, it kind of opens up like a door. And then the next thing you know, we are invited in to be a part of the Christmas celebration at the senior care homes, by the care groups itself, which is run by the government. Usually churches and religious organizations are kind of kept at a distance, but because of the relationship we’ve built and some of the seniors kind of becoming a part of our church community, there’s a trust and there’s an openness.

And that’s kind of been what we’ve been learning to respond and to engage with. And I can tell another story about what we’ve been learning. As I mentioned earlier, there’s a lot of youth in a lot of kids in our community because the population here has changed so much to young families. The rapidity of growth is just incredible. I was looking at my oldest son, he was 12. He is part of a middle school. So here in the city of Toronto, there’s a primary school and it is a junior school. And then this high school, so junior school is kids from grade six to eight. So in our neighborhood currently there’s a one middle school or junior school, and their population is 600 kids. So imagine 600 grades, six to grade eights in one school. I can’t even imagine one which I have, but it’s just so many kids. And then also hearing that after the redevelopment of the school, the capacity of that school is going to be 900 kids. So I’m blown away. I would be petrified walking through those doors.

Gino Curcuruto:

Can I just tell you that I guess taught a class of 18, maybe 17 sixth graders for my daughter who’s an English teacher, I needed a sabbatical after one hour.

Luke Stehr:

Yeah, you’re still alive. You made it.

Bernard Tam:

It’s a gift, man. Teaching kids is such a gift. And I’m setting the context a little bit about the junior high kids because it was something that our church and a couple other churches begin to recognize. There’s so many kids in our neighborhood, but why isn’t there more spaces for youth to experience Christ, but also just a safe space for kids to be, we live in an urban center. There is not a ton of space, a common space and third space. And so out of that came a conversation with a friend of mine who is starting Young Life Toronto, which is a ministry with kids. And together, out of that conversation, we just started saying, what would it look like for us to just explore starting something? I remember him telling me, oh, we need about 20 families. Then I told him, well, I have one me. And then I was like, well, can we start with that? And out of that conversation began a dream of like, oh, let’s invite other churches. Let’s see what we can do with other people. And so we started reaching out churches from different theological backgrounds, traditions, and began a conversation of dreaming of what would it look like for us to collaborate.

And so out of that, actually we launched our first youth group. I think it’s been over a year. And it’s just been a very humbling journey of learning and working with different partners and seeing how to work with different groups of kids from neighboring midtown communities. But the beauty of seeing what collaboration and partnership emerges out of a recognition of an opportunity in a dream that is so much bigger than one single local church. And recognizing that we are co-laborers and sojourners in the work of God here in our local contexts. And so that’s been a lot of fun and kind of crazy at the same time.

Luke Stehr:

So if I can ask, we’ve talked about some of the ways you’ve seen your church just move into the community. What does an average, because you’ve also talked about you’re not a Sunday centric model, and so for some people that’s a really new concept for the other two people I’m on this call with. It’s very familiar to them. But what is an average week in the life of Living Room Church look like?

Bernard Tam:

That’s such a hard question, man. I don’t know if there’s an average week.

Luke Stehr:

What did last week look like?

Bernard Tam:

I’ll explain a little bit. We kind of operate a little bit of an alternating week schedules. So on the first, third and fifth, we gather all the house churches together for a service that’s a little bit more traditional, this preaching, there’s prayers, worship, musical worship and communion together. And then on the second and fourth, we invite people to be a part of house communities where they’re now, so typically meeting on Sundays, but our encouragement is that you don’t have to meet on Sundays, find a day that works for everybody, be intentional in coming together and be around a table that you can share life and just the stories together. And then in between, we don’t really have a ton of stuff. We do have a bible study that a couple of people who are really keen on kind of theology. We have a lot of people who are inclined to theology. So we were kind of a weird church, people who actually read a heck of a lot. And so there are different groups that people kind of form and build throughout the week, but nothing really particular. I think we are still working that out, if I’m really honest. And Gino would probably have heard a lot of my sharing. It’s about we’ve been doing this for 10 years, but we’re still trying to figure it out.

Luke Stehr:

I think any institutional Sunday centric church would also say they’re still trying to figure it out.

Gino Curcuruto:

We’re all trying to figure it out.

Bernard Tam:

We’re all trying to figure it out.

Luke Stehr:

That’s so great.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, thinking about trying to figure it out. I mean, you’ve already touched on some of what I would say is some of your brilliance with contextual theology and practice and would love to dive more into that. But specifically in the program, the contextual Theology program, you probably learned some of this somewhere, maybe some of it’s intuitive for you, but in the course of your studies at Northern, was there a seminar that was more important to you? I mean, I’d hate to say favorite, how do you choose? But also, I don’t know if our listeners even know the structure of it. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that since you’re at the tail end of it. And we’re kind of in the beginning. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what the sequencing was like for you and why that might’ve been important, and was there a class that really stands out to you?

Bernard Tam:

It’s funny you talk about sequencing. So I have another friend who actually was the one who brought us into this program. By us, I mean, there’s three of us from Toronto that have been friends already. And then we were thinking about doing more studies, and as we were talking, we were like, oh, maybe we can check out Northern. And then eventually we became kind of the Canadian contingent of our cohort, which was kind of cool. We have five now. And my friend who introduced us kept talking about this dialogue box. He’s like, once you get the dialogue box, you understand what you’re doing. And we were like, what are you talking about? We’ve never heard of this dialogue box. Fitch has never told us about this until we did thesis design, which is the very last course

Luke Stehr:

You say, I haven’t heard of this. So we’re not there yet.

Bernard Tam:

And then we were learning about, oh, this is the space where culture and theology and all of that kind of collide, and you begin to learn how to dialogue between it. And then we’re like, oh, that totally makes sense.

And so I think when we talk about sequence, although I understand why thesis design needs to be last, so many building blocks of learning about contextual theology, understanding incarnating, the gospel, the scriptural background, the physiological leadership, all of those are kind of building blocks towards the end. But I think even having a little bit more on the concept of how do you put all of this together is kind of that dialogue box. So I think for me, that was very helpful at the very end, but I had wished that it was also explained to us earlier so that we are already mapping out how these pieces come together. So I think that’s the only thing about sequence.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah. Yeah. I think we’re getting some of that. I think maybe we’re getting these little intros. This is probably really in the weeds now information, but we’re getting like, okay, this class fits into this part of your thesis design in seminar three, so maybe he’s listening,

Luke Stehr:

Which for these people who are not part of Northern’s program, I get asked all the time, oh, what’s your thesis about? I’m like, I’ve been told not to even think about that. You’re really discouraged from even beginning to approach thinking about what your thesis will be until the end of this program.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes,

Luke Stehr:

I’ve learned, I have no idea what it’s about.

Gino Curcuruto:

I tell you that the one time when I got to have coffee with Stanley Howard was, and he asked me what my thesis was about, it was very embarrassing to say, I’ve been told not to think about that right now. And he’s like, “What’s Fitch doing?!”

Luke Stehr:

Straight from the lips of Stanley himself?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bernard Tam:

Should have recorded that.

Gino Curcuruto:

I wish I had. I wish I had. Well, was there one of the seminars that has been impactful maybe in some of the things that you’re doing right on the ground right away? Was there one more than others or how would you describe that? I mean, maybe that’s a better question.

Bernard Tam:

I think I’ll say it from this way first. I think more than the seminars, I think the gift of studying in cohorts has been an incredible gift to have the same people journeying together and keeping in touch with each other, even though we meet each other six months at a time every six months. But in between the still conversations and the week long seminars has been just very generative and been a part of the development and the formation journey. So I think I’m a big supporter of cohort learning because there is something about being through it together that is just very special.

Luke Stehr:

In terms of the question, well, maybe to riff on Gino’s question. Oh, sorry.

Bernard Tam:

Maybe

Luke Stehr:

To riff on Gino’s question, are there moments with your cohort that have stood out to you?

Bernard Tam:

I’ll say a fun one, and then I’ll say it kind of a real one. I think the cool thing about our cohort is that there’s foodie in our mist. And so people who are really into food and they’ll Google the best restaurants in our neighborhood or try things. I think one of the coolest experience we had was to go to a Chinese hot pot and where Jonathan Tran was also with us, and we were there as a whole cohort and people who’ve never had hot pot before, they’re like, what is this? Why are we boiling our meat? And then it’s like, what is this a baby octopus? We’re going to eat that. And it’s like, yeah, Chinese, we eat everything. And just the ability to share a meal and share live and share experiences together. I think that’s been such a great gift. But in terms of the seminars itself, I think as a cohort, I know a couple of the people have shared the same sentiment when we were with Al Roxburgh to not just focus on the lecture and his wisdom, what was most captivating for us, I think it’s the slowing down in the practice of dwelling in the word.

Because every day we had the practice, I think you guys just finished taking the course. I don’t know if he did the same thing, but

Gino Curcuruto:

He did.

Bernard Tam:

He had us every morning start with dwelling the word, I think in the afternoon too. And at a doctoral level to experience something like that has been so disruptive in a healthy way because I think we often think we need to come in here, we need to take as much knowledge as possible, but then we are reminded the point of this is not just to incur knowledge or wisdom, but it’s to actually encounter and experience the disruption of Jesus, even in this week with your cohort together. And so I think that was in terms of very transformative and influential, I think that was one of them, one of the experiences that comes to mind immediately.

Luke Stehr:

Yeah. I know that was really profound for our cohort too. I think we’re still all processing all the things that Roxburgh did to us that week.

Bernard Tam:

I’m sure there’s a lot going on,

Luke Stehr:

But it was good. I want to hear you two talk about Bernard’s thesis.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, let’s talk about it. Why don’t you start, obviously Bernard, it’s your thesis. I’m curious if some of the learning from the young life and other networking with other churches was influential in your thesis design or what you did, but maybe you should describe what it is and then you can answer some of that.

Bernard Tam:

How technical do you want me to go?

Luke Stehr:

Let’s go super technical

Gino Curcuruto:

Do it. We’ve got two listeners.

Luke Stehr:

It’s for the nerds.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes, do it.

Bernard Tam:

So I think genuine you’re saying that how does the young life and kind of a collaborative spirit and some of the stuff that we’ve been doing in the neighborhood kind of inspire the thesis? I think that is kind of the heartbeat of it. It was really funny, just kind of taking a step back. I was talking to my wife about preparation for thesis, and you guys have said, we’re not supposed to really know what we were writing on until till the very end. And so she always thought that I was going to write my thesis on house churches and that I would resolve all the unclarity of house churches through this thesis. And then I told her, no, I’m actually writing on how churches can collaborate. She’s like, what? I was waiting for you to solve all our issues.

But I think I’ve always kind of wrestled with why is our witnesses as church so poor because we can’t collaborate and connect with one another? And that has always been kind of a driving question with me. I remember when I was a youth pastor, just this deep conviction from God to get to know our neighboring churches because I’m in our kind of one kilometer block this seven churches, and I’m like, why aren’t we even having some sort of a dialogue? It was kind of funny. I remember just cold calling everyone and just showing up at the door. And then usually the first question that they asked is, well, what are you selling? And then I’m like, I have nothing to sell. I just want to get to know you. I just want to have a relationship just down the road. And I think all of that transpired to this research on exploring, well, what does that look like? So my research question, which kind of changed a little bit at the very end, and I’ll explain a little bit more. So I began with this question of what does the mission imagination of five Midtown churches move them towards kingdom collaboration? So I do focus on mission because I still believe that that is a big part of the ecclesial identity of the church.

But as we are thinking and wrestling with mission, what does that kingdom relationship look like? But through the process of the interviews, it kind of became clear that everyone kind of has a clear missional identity. But the problem with that missional identity is that it is hyper individualized. It’s kind of my preferred mission. It is compiled and define and discern just by us. There’s no an extended discernment together. And also there is this aspect of being in the urban center and what Hartmut Rosa would describe as social acceleration, the pace of our lives, the influence of technology we’re always chasing and trying to accomplish. And these become the factor of how we view our understanding of mission, our view on church, how we relate with other people, and even the purpose of seeing other local churches beside us. And so out of that, I kind of started to dig a little bit deeper into these secular theories and trying to unpack what are these cultural forces that are at work?

And out of which I had kind of used two other theories to describe the kind of experiences in these cultural climates to which I had defined it as facelessness and this experience of this embodiment. And so in the thesis, I was trying to unpack a little bit more on how in our relationship with one another, the other actually becomes an idea. They’re distance. They do not have a face, they do not have a story. They’re just a concept. But our call as the church is not to conceptualize the other, but actually to incarnate and to enter with the other. So a lot of my kind of theological work was surrounded in Miroslav Volf’s work on Exclusion and Embrace and this kind of theology of embrace, which I really appreciate, even though it was a really hard read, and it took a long time to try to figure out how does this help unpack a little bit. But I’ll share a little bit about what I’ve also found in a theology.

Gino Curcuruto:

Can I jump in? Jump in right before you do that because No, that’s good. Because there’s so many questions that are in the background of this. You’ve mentioned even on this, in this time together about how do we even define Midtown Toronto? And I wonder mean we could talk about that, what your research found. That’s not the most compelling thing. The other thing is how do we relate to each other as churches theologically with our differences? And how does that contribute to othering or the facelessness? I think that you’re kind of getting to,

If I’m tracking with this correctly, but I mean then all of that contributes to a social witness. It’s not a positive one so far. And so you’re going to talk about moving towards embrace of the other, I believe the faceless ones

Or how do you, and so that’s not even the goal, though. The goal is not just simply to see the other, it’s actually a shared mission, if I remember your question. So yeah, with that little recap or my interjection to make sure I’m tracking, please continue. This is great.

Bernard Tam:

No, thanks Gino. Sometimes when I get rolling, I feel like, oh my gosh, there’s so much going on and how do I unpack it? How do I bring it all into a simpler understanding? But I think thanks for reminding about the social witness part, because part of my wrestling in this thesis is that churches in the community is not just defined by what we do, but is how and who we are doing it together. This social witness idea, it is I think, very significant in a time where antagonism and the kind of violence that we are experiencing with the other and where the church needs to be, then now a different space that operates in a way that reflects a form of humility, of love, of patience, of mutuality. Because if the church is not embodying that kind of love, the message of love is almost untenable. Right. Well,

Luke Stehr:

I love that, even in what you’ve just said, I think for anyone with a theological ear, but if you don’t, what you’ve done is you’ve already in what you’ve said, that’s you putting Hartmut Rosa and Miroslav Volf both into conversation, this technological acceleration, the facelessness really pairing that with the idea of exclusion, this the way we say no to the other, and moving that more towards a theology of Embrace. It’s really well done. I think, way of putting those two thinkers into conversation with one another towards a missional end, which is I just love it.

Bernard Tam:

Thanks.

Luke Stehr:

But keep going.

Bernard Tam:

I hope Fitch loves it too, because

Luke Stehr:

He has to grade you.

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, no, I think thanks for that. I think that’s encouraging. I’ll share this side note, since we’re talking about the program as a whole. I find at this very last leg of the program where I’m writing a thesis where our class is talking, we have a cohort chat, the feeling of imposter syndrome is so real. There’s always kind of this uncertainty of like, am I on the right track? Is this even meaningful? Is this even purposeful? But at the same time, recognizing that this is part of the humbling process, this is actually the way that I think we should all approach academia, is that it isn’t that we become experts, but we become more curious and we become more open to the way that we are approaching learning. And so that’s been kind of a helpful kind of wrestling with the approach of learning. So yeah,

Gino Curcuruto:

That’s really good. That’s really good. So you’ve done a lot of analysis. You’ve done some interviews, keep going, share. What are some of your findings along, or I don’t want to jump to the conclusions or your way forward where you always propose further research needs to be done or something like that. But I

Luke Stehr:

Think this is also a good aside for people who aren’t going through Northern’s program but are curious about it. This is, I’m guessing you’re getting to ethnographic research methods. So that’s part of the training we receive as students is in conducting ethnography. So field work, semi-structured interviews, the whole thing. So I’m curious to how you’re forming this bridge from your theological work and your theological analysis to what you’re actually discovering on the ground as you’re talking to people. And I think that’s where Gino’s going too, but for, again, the non northern crowd, we’re really trying to make this theological ethnographic bridge. I haven’t seen the dialogue box, so I guess that’s where we’re going.

Bernard Tam:

I think actually the, what’s interesting is we have an idea, we have a proposal. We have set up these concepts that we are going to try to explore and focus on. But I think the beauty of this practice is that a lot of these cultural engagement and theological reflection actually comes out of the ethnographic research. So doing the ethnographic research, doing the interviews, doing the observations, all of that becomes that which informs back or informs first into how you approach culturally, because I could have a certain idea of where I want to go, but if the research is actually not about that, then this doesn’t really make sense. And so there’s got to be this openness. And I believe that’s kind of part of the dialogue is that we begin somewhere, but in these different pieces that are coming at it, learning to listen and see kind of the threads and the connections that are beginning to form and then kind of leaning in into those pieces.

The research is going to be wide. There’s going to be a lot, but there will be particular things that maybe the Holy Spirit will be revealing and prompting and emphasizing and showing that lean into this space. And so I think that’s what I had experienced. I think in this process, I actually started off focusing on two other social theorists like Levinas, Emmanuel Levinas, and in Maurice Merleau-Ponty, which I still used in the thesis, but I had to realize that this part needed a bigger and better framework because of the ethnographic research, because what I’ve seen, I’ve heard. And then they began to inform back into how do I approach it culturally? Well, these boundaries and these settings are needed in order for me to dive deeper into these people, which actually fits well in engaging with the dialogues.

Gino Curcuruto:

So you didn’t just come up with a, yeah, you up with a question imposed your theological imperatives on your context, and then write your paper to say what happened. I’m obviously joking, but I think you had a question. You did some ethnographic research. It maybe reframed your question, or at least some of the social theorists and theological questions that you’d have around that, which is kind of like a dialogue.

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And even my research question in the end, I had to share a little bit about how that’s kind of shifted, not shifted, but I think part of the finding is that maybe the question had, it’s not wrong, but it’s through the research, the reflection, the learning. It’s not actually the mission imagination of churches that leads to kingdom collaboration, but it’s an imagination of kingdom collaboration that is a missional imagination in our community community. So that’s been kind of interesting to approach. I remember talking to my supervisor, he’s like, did I do this wrong? That’s not my question. And then he’s like, no, no, this is good. This is meant for what it’s supposed to do. And I was like, oh, okay. Alright.

Gino Curcuruto:

And that’s the social witness that you’re talking about, correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Bernard Tam:

Correct.

Gino Curcuruto:

That’s Great. That’s great. Wow, Bernard, thank you for that.

Luke Stehr:

Oh, that’s going to be good. I’m excited. I hope I get to read it one day. I’m excited to see.

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, happy to share it. Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Well, maybe I’m

Luke Stehr:

At the end.

Gino Curcuruto:

Go ahead. I’m sorry, Luke. I was just going to say that I think we have a little delay, but I was just going to say that that summary statement seems like a huge learning for us, but also maybe for you as well in the process of just what mission is or what that missional witness is. Are there any other things, maybe as my last question to you, any other things that stand out to you as learning that’s really significant in this whole process throughout this whole process of the cohort?

Bernard Tam:

Any other like?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, in your thesis writing that you would say, yeah, I think this, it’s going to help me embody something different than I may have. When I started

Bernard Tam:

The thesis process or the thesis project,

Gino Curcuruto:

I’d say the project or the entire time in the program,

Bernard Tam:

I think the entire program definitely had pushed a, I would say us, because I believe our whole cohort experienced that a much deeper wrestling with culture, especially the underlying narratives that actually has informed our thinking and our practices. Flipping back to what you guys had asked me earlier, are there seminars that has really influenced and shaped us? The “Incarnating the Gospel” seminar with Jonathan Tran was very challenging, both because it’s in a context that I’ve never really studied a ton. It ended up focusing a lot on racial capitalism, which is I think his specialty that helped us begin to really unravel the cultural new that has informed this trajectory of where culture was moving towards. But we needed to break that back into that point. And so I think this whole process has been very helpful and challenging for us to not just see culture as it is, but even seeing what’s behind the culture, the formation of the culture that’s around us, but yet still having the hope and recognizing that God’s still at work and God’s still doing something new.

And actually this one moment in that class with Jonathan Tran was so encouraging. I think he was probably one of the, okay, that might be too harsh, I would say. He is one of the professors that we have engaged with that has so much hope in the church. And he was unabashed to say that. And in one of the lectures he ended up, I think he just went on and just started preaching to us about the hope of the church and how we need to be a part of that. And I think that’s kind of the tension that was really healthy through the process. And that’s part of what we were learning because I think when we go back to our context, when we go back to our areas of ministries and the places that we are serving, we will struggle with the heaviness of the cultural brokenness that is around us, but also the hopefulness of how God is at work. And we kind of tend to that tension. And I think this program has been really helpful in walking through these tensions.

Gino Curcuruto:

That’s great.

Luke Stehr:

Well said. Here at the tail end of your time with Northern, what are some things you just want to celebrate about the doctorate of ministry in contextual theology?

Bernard Tam:

Oh, there’s a lot to celebrate. I think this has been, everyone that I’ve known has gone through the program has really been challenge and changed through it. I think the rigor of the readings, the reflections, the dialogues, really, it’s not just like you’re doing another degree, but the purpose behind it is to really take some of the learning and seeing how it actually directly intersect in the spaces of our ministry. I think that is actually what every seminary education is meant to do. But this one was, I think for many of us, it’s been a very sharpening space and a place that we are learning how to articulate some of the things that maybe we’ve been wrestling with too, because sometimes we have all these thoughts and ideas, but we don’t know how to frame it. We don’t know how to put it into a way that makes sense culturally, makes sense, theologically makes sense practically. And this last four years I think has been part of not putting the words, but giving an environment where these vocabularies are not just words, but they’re meaningful way of framing and shaping how culture meets church meets mission and God being at work in our neighborhoods.

Gino Curcuruto:

Wow. That’s so good. Bernard, thank you so much. It’s always good to talk to you. It’s always good to listen to you talk as well, and just appreciate your time. And Luke, I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty excited about what the next couple of years have for us.

Luke Stehr:

It’s going to be good.

Bernard Tam:

Yeah, you guys will have a blast, I’m sure. Thanks for having me.

Luke Stehr:

Well, thanks for being here. Good luck on getting feedback on here for draft.