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Sometimes it's harder for people who've been around Jesus to find the way of Jesus because there's stuff that Jesus said, and I'm like, oh man, what am I gonna do with that?
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Like, I gotta now I can't unsee it.
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Our core engagement with knowing God is to wrestle with him and to have conflict, um, which most people I find don't do.
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I have a hard time with like the way we sell religion, and right now I care a lot about this next generation, and I worry that they just experience God, but they don't know him.
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And that that bothers me.
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I do firmly believe that spiritual formation is I gotta learn something about Jesus, I have to relearn something about Jesus, and I have to unlearn something about Jesus.
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Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
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So that's what we're exploring.
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All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
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Yeah, so so uh Tommy, Tommy and I go way back.
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Uh closest friend on the planet.
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Uh we uh we talk pretty much every single day.
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Uh Tommy grew up in uh a little town called Altadena.
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Um I'm gonna stop the disrespect right there.
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Born and raised in Pasadena.
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Can I just take over?
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Because this is ridiculous.
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Uh Luke, our producer, knows Altadena.
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It's it's a first call Altadina.
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All right.
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It's a it's a carton of milk and butter.
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Um, but anyways, so Tommy and I uh we we roomed together in college, best men in each other's weddings.
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Uh Tommy is the CEO of UIWI, um Urban Youth Workers Institute, or if you want to say it phonetically, ooh, we uh Urban Youth Workers.
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Uh uh Tommy's uh an incredible communicator.
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Uh he has a podcast um called The Radical Middle, um, that he and different um urban youth workers uh kind of you know communicate on about the complexities of this world and and how to navigate it.
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Uh he actually uh has a book that just dropped called um embracing the tension.
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And it's really, I think, one of the reasons why I so badly wanted him to come on this podcast because Barks, you and I, we've been talking so much about what it means to follow Jesus.
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And I think uh we'll come back to this after we talk about the Rams, but this concept of like our world is so complex.
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And you know, the church I serve at, we have this phrase following Jesus in a complex world.
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And one of the things that Tommy's been really helpful for me is a framework of how to follow Jesus in the complexity of our world and the divisiveness and the struggle, um, and how to really embrace the radical middle.
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And so let's talk about following Jesus in a complex world.
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And kind of this concept of what you write about in the tension.
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I think so many of us we're um when things get hard, even just the idea of tension, for many of us, we just we pull away, you know, you you you start ghosting someone that you might have a disagreement about, you um and some of it like you even mentioned it it's could be trauma related.
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There there's there's a bunch of stuff that's happening, but um it feels like the way of Jesus, even if you take the the gospel story of him seated at the right hand of the Father and choosing to enter the broken and beautiful realities of this world, uh it's like his whole ministry was leaning in to embrace um the tension and the radical kind of middle.
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Talk about why this idea has been so formative for you and how has it shaped your ministry and for for Eric and I, as like pastors and leaders and the people who are listening to the podcast, um, give us an in some insight into why this matters today more than ever.
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A lot of it was I was, you know, not to go all the way back, but I was born into tension.
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Like it was like my parents weren't doing really well.
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Uh there's infidelity, there was there's a whole bunch of stuff going on.
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Born into that.
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I'm I'm mixed, even though this is what I look like, you know what I mean?
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I know people can't see it, but I have blue eyes.
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Um, but I I grew up in the black community in Pasadena, California.
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Um and uh and so that was my reality.
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I'm like Filipino and all types of European, but feeling like an outsider, but wanting desperately to be a part of it.
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So I grew up in that community.
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My dad was in and out, started another family in Mexico.
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So I have Mexican brothers and sisters, and so he kind of abandoned um me and and did that, and then we reconciled and we figured all that out.
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But and then I when I came to Jesus, I just when I read uh scripture, I just read all this.
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He's a revolutionary figure to me.
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And yet I was growing up right, you know, coming to Christ in the 90s, early 90s, um, kind of maybe the height of evangelicalism.
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Um, and and yet I read Jesus and I'm like, this guy is revolutionary.
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And then I looked at the church and I thought this isn't very revolutionary.
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This is like status quo, you know, just do these things.
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And so my engagement with tension happened to just be that's what I lived in all the time, uh, experiencing all that.
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And then I took the the teaching of Jesus seriously, and and then and then when Steve and I were actually we were interns at a church um in Costa Mesa, California.
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And I remember sitting there and it was a it was an up-and-coming church.
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Uh Steve, you were the preaching intern, right?
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Yeah.
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And and I was the youth intern.
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And all these beautiful people, it's Orange County, you know, and it was a big worship church, and everybody's worshiping.
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And I was like sitting there with my arms crossed because I just felt like all these people are hypocrites.
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And and we were on the west side of Costa Mesa and kind of the hood, and it was it was an awesome neighborhood.
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And I'm like, why aren't we doing things here?
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And the church was like, it's not really in our values, we just support people that do.
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And that bothered me.
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And I had a come to Jesus moment, and I just was like, God, your church is full of hypocrites.
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Like, I'm over this.
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And God just simply kindly said to me, Well, yeah, you're right.
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He like affirmed it.
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Yeah, totally, full of hypocrites.
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And uh, you are the church, so why don't you go do it?
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Like, be the church that you want to see.
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And that's where Steve and I, um, Steve had started a small group Bible study called, and we called it Solidarity.
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And we just took that seriously and we were like, why don't we actually go live this out?
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And we took one verse to keep the bar low.
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Love your neighbor as yourself.
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And then I went on a on an experiment for 17 years, running and leading that, turning into a nonprofit.
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And then within that nonprofit, a ton of tension, right?
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Immigration, uh, you know, police, uh, um, poverty, um, economics, politics.
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Like it was so difficult.
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And so this whole book is my 25-year journey of, okay, if Jesus tells me things like um, you know, the abundant life in John 10 10, that he's here to give me the abundant life and that his yoke is easy, his burden is light.
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I had to reconcile.
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If I believe that the God's word is truth, I had to reconcile how does this actually work.
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Because uh I would I uh Steve knows I'm not for the status quo.
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Like, if this thing's not real and it doesn't work, then I don't want to follow it.
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Like, why waste my time?
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Let me go find something else.
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But I went through that journey and man, Jesus rings true and is and and so it wasn't about like you know, not dealing with hard issues, not dealing with, you know, all the issues of sexuality or or politics or the economy, or all that.
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It was rather that if you pressed into it, there's a pathway there to help you become who you were created to be.
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And as you do that, then you actually become can become the vessel to bring healing and light to this world, and that God has a strategy in that.
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So that I mean that's kind of like, you know, in short, what why I started all this and what that looks like.
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Um, and it's it's been a wild ride, and um, and it still rings true.
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Like the gospel still rings true.
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I still wrestle with it, I still uh you know, ask a lot of questions.
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Um, but there's a pathway that I've I've discovered.
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Um, and man, uh during some of the worst times of my life, some of the most difficult things, like Jesus is it, man.
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There's like nothing else.
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So, so I just wrote a book on like a pathway to that.
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I suspect just hearing your story that the last 25 years has informed that book.
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Uh right?
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Could could you say, like, man, like uh why is it that you chose to write and what is it over the last 25 years that made you write this book?
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Because I have a tension with it.
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That's why.
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Like, I think the church can do better.
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I think it's the mo it can be the most powerful institution in the world, and a lot of ways it has been, but it's also used that power for evil and and destruction, and yet I could see it being like so incredible.
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And then my own experience with Jesus has been like there's nothing else, man.
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He's incredible.
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So the tension for me though was I I have a hard time with the Christian industrial complex.
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So I I have a hard time with like the way we sell religion and um the way you know things are are structured, and um, like right now I care a lot about this next generation, and I worry that um, you know, we're doing all these big worship um events and things, which is great.
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That's awesome.
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I have nothing against that.
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But um, but I worry that that kind of industrial complex is just like we should do more of these, and we can make this money and we could sell these albums and all that.
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And then the generation like they just experience God, but they don't know him.
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And that that bothers me because most churches don't do discipleship.
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It's too hard.
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So we just gather a lot of people.
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So I have like this tension with that where I'm like, ah, like I, you know, um, and again, I I came up, you know, listening to public enemy and rage against the machine, and right.
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So there's a little punk rock kind of revolutionary, but I've I've given all that to the Lord, and you know, I've been humbled a lot.
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I planted a church, I'm a pastor, I know how hard it is.
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On the backside of that, I just was like, God was like, hey Tommy, um, hey, that's really cool that you have all this angst, you know, against you know, all these things.
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But also, um, I've given you a gift in the last 25 years, and I need you to sit down, do the hard work to map that out so that other people can also learn and grow in that.
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So that's really why I wrote the book, because I really struggled with that.
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Um, and that was attention for me.
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And and through the book, I I explained like what that looks like, um what it looks like to, you know, uh wrestle with truth, and that our core our core engagement with knowing God is to wrestle with him and to have conflict, um, which most people I find don't do.
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And I go, oh man, you're missing it, dude.
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Um, and Steve was the one that put me on a lot of this, uh, you know, uh the Jewish understanding of knowing God is to wrestle with him.
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And you you find that in Genesis with Jacob.
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And and so I it in that that's that's what this is.
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And so I've just created a guide to say, okay, here's how I've gone through it.
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And literally, and Steve knows this because he he loves me, he's walking with me.
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I'm going through some really hard things right now, and I find myself actually doing this same process in my life right now.
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And so it still rings true.
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So it's not one of those things where it's like, hmm, I should write a book.
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Like, what should I write about?
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It was this is a lived experience that I'm still living in right now, and so that's kind of why why I wrote that this book.
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You know, usually when you you talk to someone about writing a book, it's it's very, very flowery.
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You know, they're just like everything is, but I think just that the human side of I remember those drives back from the church, and and I was like, Yeah, but like you gotta be in it to change it.
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And you were like, I don't know if it wants to change, I gotta be outside of it.
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Like, and and and like watching like the prophetic voice that was powerful, but also the humility that you had to learn.
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And then I think I like stayed in it, and there was some humbling that happened within me, and and it was just like this amazing ways that the Spirit of God like is relentless in our own sanctification, like that relentless in helping us become more whole and holy.
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But all of it, no matter who you are, and Eric, you you've you've tasted and seen this in in different capacities, requires uh the follower, the disciple, to lean in.
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Uh and that I think is uh you know, this underlying current um that's underneath the book is this invitation to lean in to the suffering.
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To leave there's an invitation for formation or an invitation for transformation or spiritual formation that comes from the lean in.
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And I think that's um, you know, I we could we could throw out different topics of like, all right, how do you lean in well?
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But maybe step back and say, hey, at like a 30,000-foot view, give us give us a little bit of that pathway, like, you know, of what that pathway looks like.
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Because what's so amazing is once once people hear the pathway, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, you can drop different topics into the pathway, and you're like, oh, yes, like you mentioned, truth.
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Oh, yeah, like let's start here, or let's do so.
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Talk, talk that, talk that out for us.
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Uh it's funny, you talk about humbling.
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I Steve and I were on the Camino, and and I was wrestling with writing this book, and there was somebody on the Camino who's an author, and I was spouting off about you know the industrial complex or whatever.
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And and I'm like, oh well, like the nine different steps to do this.
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And Steve just pulls me aside and goes, Hey, that guy wrote the nine path, the the nine pathway, or what was it called?
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It's it was it was like this guy's a legend, and he wrote basically about each of the Beatitudes, and it's like the the nine like pathways.
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Ninefold path, ninefold path, yeah.
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And it's an awesome book.
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And I was like, dude, it's not like shut up, dude.
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Like, what's the matter with and so I like I just you know uh um people listening will probably be like this guy's an idiot.
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Um, but listen, I was I was as I was wrestling with that, I I came to a place and humbled, man.
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And and so I did write it as a way of like almost like a hero's journey, like you're going on a backpack trip, like you're on the Camino.
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So super simple pathway in the sense of and infinitely complex, but um one, I think give yourself the permission to actually decide if you want to take the path of Jesus or not.
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That's like where you start.
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Like you and and I just want to give people permission, like, yeah, you might have grown up in the church or you might have been wrestling with it, or the last like you know, 10 years, you've been like, I don't know if I really believe this.
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Do the work to actually figure out do I want to you know, walk the path of Jesus, not just my denomination or my church or my family's culture, whatever the thing is.
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Okay, stop there, tell me.
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I think this is what's been so awesome about what Plum Creek is doing.
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Um, you know, as someone who's kind of like inside, outside, like um get the privilege to go and teach there from time to time, but to see it from the outside of like these follow um guides, and whether it's on prayer, whether it's on formation, discipleship, like that's that's been like the the piece where people are being introduced and Eric, I don't know, like just like that.
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So resonates with me.
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The phrase we use to describe the journey is pretty simple.
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It's like, well, if Jesus was right about God, about life, about the soul, then it would just make sense to rearrange your life around what he said is true.
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Yeah.
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And and it's it this has been the big journey, though.
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You know, as you said, uh, you know, I grew up uh all I've ever known is uh megachurch uh my whole life that I've been inside of this in the same way that the three of us have.
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And the thing that I became really convicted about was oh you cannot rearrange your life if you don't know what he said.
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Like there is no rearrangement if you don't know what he said.
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And um, I think what we have to do to your point is reintroduce ourselves to this rabbi.
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Like, what did he actually say?
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And then wrestle with we say it all the time.
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It's like being an admirer, that's it's cool.
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Hey, if you want to be an admirer, that's that's cool.
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Um that's fine.
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But really, discipleship is all around the single word of rearrangement.
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It means like something's sitting at the center of your world, something is so uh dude, that does resonate with us because I think that's a hard sometimes.
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I wonder if it's harder to um find Jesus uh for someone who's been around the church for a long time.
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Oh, absolutely.
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You know how many people I meet that they they come to Christ and they're like this is the greatest thing ever, and then they they get together with the church and they're like it it bums them out because they're like, This isn't how come you guys aren't as excited?
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You know what I mean?
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And so I so yeah, and and I think if you guys have churches that make space for people to wrestle and ask questions and hard questions, and and a lot of times, you know, we do want to keep the status quo, so we we you you learn the culture really quick, like hey, we don't ask that question, right?
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Even up top leadership, when we talk about leadership, yeah, I know you have all the values on the wall, but we're not actually living those out.
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Can we ask questions about that?
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And so it so that whole thing, so you start with that.
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Do you are you even interested in the ways of Jesus?
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Like, do the work, like figure it out.
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Because don't don't waste your time with all these years and showing up to services and do that if you're really not in it.
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Like, I would just be like, oh, be free of that.
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But if you're interested and you're you want to, okay, go on, start on the path of Jesus.
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And for a lot of people, they feel like they've already gone down that road, but they actually didn't know Jesus.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:26.720
Like they went down the Southern Baptist road, or they went down the charismatic road, or they went down like, and there were pieces of Jesus, but it wasn't like that, wasn't what you said, like the source of it, like the core, right?
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:35.920
So once you do that, then I we just simply go kind of like what I call the planes of truth, and you have to wrestle with truth.
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.640
And uh, the big point there is that truth is a person.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.240
Why would God do that?
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.039
Because, yes, truth is black and white, you know, it's not relative.
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:51.759
However, you're called into the gray of relationship, and and how do you actually live out the truth?
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:53.680
And that's really hard for people.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.720
When the adulterous woman, you know, they're gonna stone her.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.160
He he basically is like, hey, anybody condemn you?
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.079
She's like, No, he's like, then neither do I.
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:29.440
He just erased a line.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:36.799
She there was a sin there, and he erased the line, and then right after he goes, Hey, go and sin no more, and then he draws the line again.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.799
So, how do we do that?
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:43.680
And it takes work and intentionality, and then and then you get to really fun parts.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.160
I think what you were saying earlier, Steve.
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.839
I I talk about the the caverns of identity and going in.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.039
Who are you really made?
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.160
And then you get to the hip the switchbacks of hypocrisy.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.599
And I think one of the an easy thing for your guys' churches to hear, and whoever's listening to this, one of the best.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.319
Spiritual practices that you can do is to confront your own hypocrisy.
00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:13.759
And it's one of the hard like people hate to do that, but listen, you can't do it outside of the ways of Jesus because you can't.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:22.400
There's parts of the body of Christ that sit there and they, you know, they just beat themselves up, which honestly is just them working their way to heaven, right?
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:31.279
They feel like if I'm contrite enough, if I'm like, oh, I'm the worst, and I'm just a worm, and I'm I'm I'm I'm wretched, and I'm just, you know, and you're punishing yourself.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.319
Well, then what was Jesus' work on the cross for?
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:41.759
So, so there's that side of it, and then there's also the other side of it, and just going like, but I am, I have done wrong.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:42.880
I am a hypocrite.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.000
How do I receive that and then do better?
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:56.880
Like, and only through the power of Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and you know, uh the power that we have over sin through Christ, can we even actually engage in that?
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:58.480
And yet, that's the pathway.
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:05.200
And so many people, they don't they want to ask for forgiveness once and then never want to ask for forgiveness again, right?
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.519
Like, let's just do that one thing once.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:08.880
And I that was so uncomfortable.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:11.279
I don't ever want to do that again with anybody else.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:21.759
And so there's a pathway there that when you embrace that, that tension that we find within ourselves, it's actually the path to your healing and your wholeness.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:32.400
But if you don't have people doing that, and we're just showing up at a service once a week to hear the pastor's process of what they're going through, and I go, hmm, that's good.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.480
And then I never go through it myself.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:35.200
Yeah, right.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.359
Oh man, that you're missing it, dude.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.400
You're wasting your time.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:46.079
So, and then it and then you know, the journey can kind of goes on, and and we talk about you know the heights of purpose and the valley of compassion.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:58.880
And there's a bunch of theology in there that I want to help, especially leaders, pastors, and people who are involved in the kingdom of God, like understand um, you know, a theology of work and suffering and per presence.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.839
And then the last chapter is really just talking about what you guys are both trying to do in your churches.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:10.880
What if, as you continue to grow into this person, what if there's a whole group of these types of people in the world?
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.960
And it's a really easy jump to go, that would be amazing.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:21.200
The world would be a million times better if you had groups of people that went through this process.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:29.599
So we bro, I want to talk about uh two things specifically um out of your book.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:44.000
I want to talk about you know the depths of nuance, but I want to say like um uh what what we've been working through as a community is actually reintroducing the ideas of Jesus.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.359
So um we released a guide that are the 93 things that Jesus said in just the Gospel of Matthew.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.079
That's awesome.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:25:07.920
With a because I I had this thought, I'm like, man, to your point, I'm like, oh, you you may have walked down a road that has pieces of Jesus, but what would it look like if you just our whole church um walked through all that he said?
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:08.400
Yeah.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:15.759
And then so on one side it's like, here's what he said, here's a brief little thought, and then journal on the other side.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:41.680
Imagine doing the work of like confronting, because I I got to thinking, you know, when you when we talk about uh you know the human experience and and um moving someone beyond what they've known, you know, specifically, you know, we're we're challenging people to look their bias right in the eye.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:52.720
Like, you know, there's a confirmation bias that exists, even with the way of Jesus, where we go, we judge all these new ideas on how easily they fit and confirm the old ideas.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:26:20.240
So it's like it this is why I say sometimes it's harder for people who've been around Jesus to find the way of Jesus, because dude, I I mean I worked on this thing for the last 18 months, and it can it messed with me because like there's stuff that Jesus said, and I'm like, oh man, what on what am I gonna do with that?
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:23.599
Like, I gotta I now I can't unsee it.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:24.880
You know what I mean?
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:26.000
Absolutely, man.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:33.119
I'm just like, I'm excited that you're being courageous enough to do it because what it'll do is as you jump, let's talk about nuance.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:40.319
As a as you guys lead pastors of these like significant churches, a lot of stuff's happening.
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.559
There's a tendency for us to be like, I it's a weird thing.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.680
Like, I've got to know all the things, right?
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.680
I've I've gotta like Steve's gotta be the smartest guy in the room, right?
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:57.119
Or you know, Eric's gotta know, like, just have wisdom, like just hit every time somebody comes to you.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.599
And the reality is like that's just not true.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:03.119
Like, it's okay for you guys to just be like, I don't know.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:03.680
You know what?
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:05.279
I haven't dealt with that yet.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:12.240
I and I like we're we're doing it, and because you're nervous, because like, oh my gosh, like what like why would people want to follow me?
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.039
Are they gonna stay?
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:14.319
Are they gonna grow deeper?
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:18.559
Like, but but that's where we want to reframe all this for people.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:23.839
Like, I just want to give a different paradigm, same, same gospel, same Bible, yeah, same truth.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:32.160
I just want to give either an ancient way of understanding it or a different framework for our context today to say, hey, one, that's okay.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.559
It's okay you're on the journey, you have questions.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:36.559
It how is this working?
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:38.880
I you know, like that's a big question for me.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.880
I just go, how's this working?
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:48.480
And if I believe this is truth, then I've got I the the onus is on me to figure out then how does it actually work out?
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:56.160
Um, and and so there's a lot of that in there, and you can't have that without conversation.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.279
And so a lot of the thing with nuance is that the relationship is the conversation, and the conversation is the relationship.
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.440
How how deep are your conversations with God?
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:07.359
Because you've written about this, yeah.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.920
Why why is it that you think people struggle with the the nuance piece?
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.559
What why is it that people struggle with that?
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:24.799
On a real simple level, here in here in in Southern California, right, we drive crazy fast on freeways, right?
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:26.799
Like Steve knows.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:35.680
And you can ask anybody, and maybe you know where you guys are at too, who's ever's listening, has anybody ever cut you off to get off to you know off the freeway?
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:37.359
And you're like, dude, what the heck?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:46.880
You know, and they they go over that median, you know, the the the triangle, and they're kicking up dust because they're you know, and you're like, dude, what's your problem?
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:52.960
Um, well, and you can be upset at that person, and then and then you do it.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:57.039
And when you did it though, it was I I had to get to the hospital.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.480
Like you don't know what's going on.
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:11.279
Like I, you know, I was late for work, uh, whatever the thing is, like just our innate human nature is to be like, well, I have a lot of nuance for myself, but I have very little for anybody else.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:21.279
And that has to do with all of our brokenness and drama and all the things that like, how can I, how can I give so much grace to me, or maybe I'm not giving grace to me.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.200
Maybe my internal voice is so harsh, and that's why I'm harsh on other people.
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:26.880
And that's why you get that, right?
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:31.119
Where you're like, oh, these lazy people, I did it and I pulled myself up on my own.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.160
Why can't they do it?
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.519
And it doesn't, it doesn't smell, taste, feel anything of Jesus.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:46.079
And what that tells me is because people react that way and I react that way, it means that I don't understand the full gospel.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.079
It means that I haven't wrestled with it enough.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.640
It means that I haven't like fully understood it and understood what Jesus did for me.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:00.960
And until you can continue do that that process and receive that, dude, the gospel's not that great of news.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:03.920
Like it's like, oh, cool, I don't get to go to hell.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.440
Um, how about you want to live in heaven now?
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:08.640
Like, there's parts of that.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:12.160
Like, you how about you want to be more of who you're created to be?
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.319
Do you want to see your relationships be healed?
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.759
Do you want to live with purpose?
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.720
Do you want to, you know, your identity be shaped and formed?
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.319
Like that all that's found in the nuance.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.440
And the nuance isn't so that you can be like wishy-washy, right?
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.519
Like, well, hey, whatever you want, man.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:34.880
You know, it's more like the it's a barometer to go, man, uh, why does that person irritate me so much?
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:40.640
Probably because you see parts of you in that person that irritate you and bother you.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.759
Well, if you just capture that and press into that, then there's a pathway there.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.599
God's inviting you, He's always up to something.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:50.799
So He's like, Yeah, let's let's have that conversation.
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:57.599
And and people are so afraid of that because they're not good at conflict, they don't want to go through the pain of it.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:22.720
I do firmly believe that spiritual formation is I gotta learn something about Jesus, I have to relearn something about Jesus, and I have to unlearn something about Jesus.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:31.920
And those three pieces on the regular, and and going, man, like I uh man, I gotta, and I gotta have grace for myself in in all of those processes.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:40.799
When I'm relearning something about Jesus, then I'm like, dude, I should know better, I know better, and yet I still don't get this.
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:54.960
Or, man, I thought I was so right in this moment, or but I don't understand forgiveness or reconciliation in the way that Paul writes about it or Jesus embodies.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:03.519
I man, I I just I want grace and I want mercy and I want everybody else to experience justice.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:08.319
Like, I don't want justice, you know, and and and and then I gotta unlearn that.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.400
I gotta unlearn, no, I actually deserve justice too.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:22.640
So what makes me get to receive grace and not be able to give that to another person in a way that's not wishy-washy to what you're saying.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:30.319
So, so walk us through that because I think I think again, these are those moments where people are listening, going, yeah, yeah, I want that.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.880
And I think leaders ask why questions.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.119
I think most congregations are asking how questions.
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.640
Well, how do I do it, man?
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:47.359
How did how how how how do I and you can just say like, well, go read the book, or you know, but but like how how in your own life, um, do you walk this out?
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:49.839
That's a great question.
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:51.519
I'll give you a it is a great question.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:51.839
Thanks.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.200
No, I mean it's like, is this your first podcast?
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:57.599
No, that's you're doing really great, Steve.
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:23.680
Um I uh so I had a neighbor once, uh, and on this neighbor had a truck, and and they had they had they would create, okay, so like go somewhere and create these stickers that were like these um super political stickers, and they pasted them all over the truck, and it was against one certain party about and they were like super offensive, and it was all over the truck, right?
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:35.359
And and I was just always like, ah, this guy, you know, and I got to know him or whatever, and and I was like, okay, you know, if he ever found out some of the things I believe, he would he would hate me, you know what I mean?
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.440
So he had this truck, all this crazy political stickers all over it.
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:46.880
Um, and then the school um you know sends out an email and goes, Hey, you should check Megan's Law.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.480
And Megan's Law is the the website that shows all the sex predators, right?
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.039
Um in your area.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:56.559
Guess who was on there?
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:58.000
Yeah, my neighbor.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:59.119
You know what I mean?
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:18.159
And and I and I so this thing happens, and I'm like, dude, so I'm living right next to, you know, uh sexual predator who's on this list, and I'm like, and yet he has this this truck that has all these like things that are that are against this certain group of people.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:26.719
And to me, I'm like sitting there feeling pretty self-righteous, like, dude, how could you even say any of this stuff against any other group when you're this?
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:28.159
This is who you are.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:35.920
And then, and then as I'm thinking through that, I'm I'm you know, I'm my just normal time in scripture.
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:42.320
I'm reading through uh the gospels and and I'm going, I have to wrestle with.
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:46.639
So the first step is you have to be in God's word and you have to wrestle with it.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:54.079
And I'm wrestling with it, going, like, okay, God, I know, you know, like Romans tells me that all of sin falls short of the glory of God.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:59.599
I feel like God, some people have fallen a lot farther than others, right?
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:03.599
Like, but I had to sit, so I had to sit and wrestle with God's word.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:04.880
So that's step one.
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:11.119
You have to be in God's word enough, like Eric said, to like wrestle with it and then apply that to your life.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:18.639
So now I'm next door to this guy and I'm like, okay, he like this guy's the he's terrible.
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:24.480
And yet I'm like, man, but him and I to a holy God have fallen.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.119
We both are in the same spot.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.360
So what do I do with that?
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:33.360
And then how do I, as a as a dad of five children, right?
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:37.920
At the time, you know, um, I'm like, how do I engage with that?
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:39.840
And how does Jesus see this guy?
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:43.039
And then how do I engage with wisdom, right?
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:46.159
Because I'm not like, yeah, dude, hey, can you watch my kids for me?
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:46.880
No, dude.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:47.599
You know what I mean?
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.079
Like, but also with like, how do I see him in the way that Jesus sees him?
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:56.000
And then how can I actually display the kingdom of God to this man?
00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:00.159
Like, okay, that's it's it's right there.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:08.800
And so part of that is right, I so I have to first step, I have to be in God's word and I have to wrestle with it in my life.
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:15.679
Second step, I have to actually spend the time, and this means that you guys have to have margin to sit and think through this stuff.
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:23.519
You you actually have to wrestle with it, you have to talk about it, you have to like figure that out and how does it actually work out, right?
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:25.519
You can't do that with everything all the time.
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:31.760
You can just, God's gonna put things in front of you, the scripture that you're reading, your life, there's enough there.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.400
Take that one thing, capture it, and think through it.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:38.559
And then I have to practice what does it look like then?
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:40.480
What does the gospel mean in my life?
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:44.480
And that means I have to practice forgiveness and being forgiven.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.400
And I know that might seem like a large like jump.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:53.519
Like, um, how do you go from like, you know, think God's word to thinking about this to forgiveness?
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.239
It's because I have unforgiveness in my heart.
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:59.679
So with my neighbor, I could be like, dude, that guy's a piece, dude.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:01.199
Like, screw that guy.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.760
Oh man, I okay.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:10.480
If God tells me that um if I don't forgive, I won't be forgiven.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.960
Ooh, I okay, what does that mean?
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.039
And and how is this guy actually offended?
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:16.079
Hey, like, I don't know.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.119
Do I need to forgive?
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:18.400
Like, how does that work?
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.760
I have to think through that.
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:29.440
And then as I do that, I have to like then like ultimately, I just have to have that that consistent self-reflection.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.000
I have to confront my own hypocrisy.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.800
Where am I not living that out?
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:36.079
How am I?
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.920
Where are the areas that I've sinned?
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:43.199
And then I need and then I go back to to forgiveness, and I I need to then deal with that with God.
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:49.519
And then the last thing is, um, if it's possible, I have the conversation, right?
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.280
I have the conversation with God.
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.599
Hey, I'm better than this guy, God.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:55.599
You know what I'm saying?
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.960
Like, and objectively, I could be like, uh, I am.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:00.559
I haven't done what he's done.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.639
And also I have to work through, but I'm I can also be a piece.
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:07.360
You know what I mean?
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:18.559
Like, I I can like do the things that go on in my head, the things that I say, my anger, the way that I you don't don't want to forgive people, or I want to, you know, get back at somebody that hurt me.
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:32.559
Like, there's all that stuff, and see that journey of just dealing with nuance and all this, because then I can have the conversation not only with God, but then if there's conflict with others, I can have that conversation with them as well.
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:34.719
This is this is the work.
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:36.639
You know, this is the work.
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:50.079
And in and you know, um, Eric spent some time with Dallas Willard, and you know, um, and uh Tommy, uh Tommy was my roommate, Eric, when I would call Dallas every day.
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:51.679
Um, you remember that, Tommy?
00:38:51.840 --> 00:39:05.440
Like when I got his home number and from USC, and I would just leave him a message and I would call um be like, hey Dallas, I read Divine Conspiracy, and I just would like call like on the on the on the regular and you're like Chris Harley or Chris.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:07.679
Yeah, it was uh I really liked your book.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:10.960
Yeah.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:13.119
So about time when you wrote that.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:21.360
But one of his great phrases, you know, is um, you know, Grace is opposed to earning, but never opposed to effort.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:37.119
What I what I want to ask, and I mean this in all seriousness and also playfulness, is does it feel like too much work for so many people?
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:38.559
You know what I mean?
00:39:38.639 --> 00:40:01.199
Like in and like what that process you laid out, like it is the work, you have to do that work, and uh it feels like in this day and age the spiritual musculature that we have shaped and formed people hasn't been to lean in and do that work, and so it's almost like that feels like a triathlon.
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.760
I just is there a way I can just get the 5k like can I get the 5k, Jesus?
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:18.880
Can I just get like can I just get like I see so much easier for my life to get heaven and not have to even deal with that dude and think everything I want to think, allow the energy to go through my body.
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:20.320
Can't stand that guy.
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:21.440
He's a bad dude.
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:22.320
I'm awesome.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:37.840
Jesus knows I'm awesome, and I'm gonna I'm gonna highlight John 10 10 because um not the part where the thief steals, kills, and destroys, but the part that says that there's a life abundance and overflowing, and like I want that life, I just don't want to do the work.
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:47.199
So I love that because in those verses, right, you do have those two, like that he does talk about the thief and the enemy, and and that's what I'm talking about.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.639
It's like, what is it?
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.119
What's the vision for those of you who are listening?
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:52.960
What's the vision for your life?
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:58.159
And what's the point of following Jesus if you're not gonna receive all that he has to give for you?
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.360
And so if you want the abundant life, there's the other side of that.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:08.000
When you don't press into it, man, the thief is killing, stealing, destroying, and continues to do so.
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:13.840
And and that just continues to make the world worse and worse and worse, and then it's just this vicious cycle.
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:15.280
But that's the piece, though.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:27.360
That's the piece, is I think that the there's a blindness to people going, I've got the abundant life, and they don't know that what's happening is something is being stolen, killed, and destroyed.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:28.719
Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:29.840
And I know that from my own life.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:36.800
I don't mean that projection on top, I just know that, like, oh, I got it, I got it, and then it's like, why don't I feel so empty or so tired?
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:45.760
Bro, Carter, I just heard this in the past week, and uh it uh it's all about like what's called a complexity bias.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:51.519
Our brain is wired to prefer a simple lie to a complex truth.
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:52.079
Wow.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:42:18.800
So it is why we it's why to to do what Tommy just said, like the the amount of work that it takes to take a complex truth, which Jesus lays out in Matthew when he talks about, he lays out that parable, he talks about uh the guy who um had so much to pay back, the amount of what he had to pay back was astronomical, right?
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:20.719
You could never pay it back.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:30.079
And the the whole idea is that you're so angry with other people who owe such little debt, and you don't realize how big your debt is.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.119
It's what you're saying, but that's a complex truth.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:49.280
And and we are this this would be my formation challenge to someone is how many times have you looked across at someone and just made a simple, well, that's just it's them and me.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:51.039
Us and them.
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:56.960
Whether you do it with a party, a political party, you do it with a person, your neighbor.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:05.280
The the work is, is there a complex truth at play here that I just don't want to do the work to see.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:33.679
So here's here's something that I because I don't want to overwhelm people either, right?
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:36.079
I don't want to be like, dude, that's too hard, I can't do it.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:39.360
You can absolutely do this, and here's why you go.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:44.639
So you're right, you're in the switchbacks of hypocrisy, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so hard.
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.920
You come back to is Jesus the way?
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.440
And then you wrestle with the truth, and the truth is a person.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:44:01.920
And so God makes it in this way where he's like, Hey, listen, like it is it is complex truth, that's true, but it's just Me, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:03.440
Come and be with me.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:15.840
And so, so if you're like overwhelmed by that, you can simply just go, I'm just gonna go be with Jesus, which I mean by so if you're gonna go be with Jesus, you got He's given you a book, right?
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:16.719
I joke all the time.
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:24.239
I speak to a lot to youth and young adults, and I'm like, Can you imagine what it'd be like if our spouses gave us a book and said, Here, read this.
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:25.440
This is this is all about me.
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:26.719
That would have been so helpful, right?
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:28.159
And God's given us that grace.
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.760
Here's a whole book about me.
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:31.280
So learn about him.
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:41.679
Um, you have the Holy Spirit, like engage with the Holy Spirit, ask questions, learn to hear God's voice, like actually have the conversation, spend time listening, write that stuff down.
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:44.800
It'll never, it'll never go against scripture, right?
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:48.159
So, you know, spend time in prayer, go on walks with God.
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:55.360
Um, if you have a hard time with this, really practically speaking, when you go on walks, go on a walk, which you should anyway, because it's healthy for you.
00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:01.920
Go on a walk, go somewhere where you can speak out loud and just talk out loud to God.
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:07.199
Because when you pray that way, your brain can only focus on what you're saying.
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:08.079
It can't.
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:14.320
So if you only pray in your mind, you're gonna have like, oh, I need this from the grocery store, or what I'm worried about this.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:26.719
Like, speak it out and then wait and listen, and then just allow yourself the the pleasure and also the risk of going, okay, God, speak to me, and just and learn how to do that, right?
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:31.840
So go, you you carve out time, you put it on your calendar, you go and spend time with God.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:34.079
That will reveal truth to you.
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:41.840
Like, right now, the way that you make sure that's not just your truth and you're just coming up with whatever you want is that's why the church is so important.
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.239
And the other aspect of that is wisdom.
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:51.840
If you feel like God's like, leave your family and and go to the desert and you know, quit your job, like that's not wise.
00:45:52.079 --> 00:46:07.199
And you need to have people, that's why the church, the people of God, um, are in your life so that that they can also do the same process your process that you're doing and affirm or or um push back on, you know, the truth that you're experiencing.
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:18.639
So at the end of the day, yes, you need to sit and you think through this and you know, but look who God like Jesus picked out these probably they were teenagers, right?
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.480
These knuckleheads, right?
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:22.880
And and Peter's a little bit older.
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:29.519
Uh so if those are who he picked, you know, to to follow him, you can do it too.
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.480
And you can see even when Peter was a lot older, he was still struggling with stuff.
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:40.559
So this journey never ends until you die, and then it continues on into eternity in knowing God.
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:45.440
The the the gift of the gospel is that you can experience that now, pieces of that.
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:47.039
That I mean, that's the good news.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:48.480
So that's what I would say.
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:50.800
So I I yeah, I loved how you frame that, Steve.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.519
And I don't want to overwhelm people, but this is the work.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:58.159
And some of you that are listening, you're mature in Christ and you're not doing this stuff.
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:04.000
So, so you don't have an excuse, press on, do the hard work.
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:11.760
You're in your 60s, 70s, 80s, go back to your family, ask for forgiveness, like be humble, continue to grow.
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:14.400
Like, this there's still more for you.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:20.880
No matter how long you followed or know the Bible, like God is infinite in His in His goodness.
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:23.119
And so, why wouldn't you want that?
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:24.559
And I'll I'll end with this.
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.199
But what's uh the great Ruth Bell Graham's tombstone?
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:35.519
You know, it says like date she was born, the date she passed, and like literally Billy Graham's wife on her tombstone.
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:38.480
It says, end of construction, thanks for your patience.
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:40.800
That's on her tombstone, you know what I mean?
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:42.639
It's like that's your point, Tommy.
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:58.320
Like, here's here is this like saint of a woman, and she understood, oh, this side of heaven, I I will never be done being shaped and formed and my life built on the cornerstone, Jesus.
00:47:58.400 --> 00:47:59.679
Like, it's it's constant.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:00.880
That's sanctification.
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:02.559
That is the beauty of the Holy Spirit.
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:04.719
That is the beauty of knowing God's word.
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:09.199
That is the beauty, but God's never gonna force that on us.
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:15.760
He's gonna invite us to just come to watch, to be, to learn, to put.
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:22.960
Um, and I was just even reading like Colossians, like with my small group, and and like just amazing.
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:30.159
Like, you can like hover with these amazing verses of like, oh man, you know, Christ is in us.
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.239
Um, that's the hope of glory.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:41.039
And you know, like you can go to all this, and then like totally skip, like put to death, get rid of like you're like, no, no, no, no, Christ, the hope of glory, man.
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:41.599
That's awesome.
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:42.000
That's it.
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:42.400
I love that.
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:43.119
Seven words.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:44.800
Yeah, bro.
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.639
But then I saw the plans I have for you.
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.199
Yeah, totally.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:49:00.079
And you're like, you sit there and you're like, oh, put to get rid of all the anger and the rage and the slander, the mal like that's put to death, these parts of that old self.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:01.519
Like, that's the work.
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.599
And I think that's that invitation of not trying harder.
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:21.039
Like, as my friend Andy Kolber says, like, no, no, you try softer, but like, man, when you have grace and God and the spirit and Jesus, um, you don't gotta like it's more just this soft ability to allow the work to be done.
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:23.440
So, Tommy, where can people find you?
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.760
Um, because really grateful for what you just shared.
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:31.920
Dude, I uh yeah, socials like at Tommy U Y W I, which I know is like the worst acronym.
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:32.800
Tommy Uwe.
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:33.679
Ooh.
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.000
Um, but yeah, Tommy Nixon just searched it up and you can find the book everywhere.
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:40.480
You know, it's on Amazon and Barnes Noble.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:43.039
And um it and so yeah, would love.
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:44.400
I hope it's helpful to people.
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:52.880
I mean, what the only thing I want people to take away from this is like listen to three witnesses tell you this is the best way.
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:54.800
Didn't take away all the suffering.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.719
I've I incredible amount of pain in my life.
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:03.360
And and I would still be like, nope, this is the way.
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:08.639
Like, I like it's not so I can sell more books or get more speaking, like I could care less.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:11.840
It's like literally, this is the greatest.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.599
And I just want more people to experience it, and I want to experience it more.
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:21.840
And so I I would just hope that people go, okay, maybe, maybe I believe these three jokers, you know what I mean?
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.199
Like, all right, I'll try it and and take that next step.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:37.280
And I'm so thankful for uh churches like your guys's, you know, that can that that are creating guides, you know, and that's all we need to want to be is I'm a guide as I'm being guided.
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:38.079
That's it.
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:40.320
And and everybody listening to this, guess what?
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:41.519
You're called to that as well.
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:43.599
And you can't lead people where you haven't been.
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:46.159
So, man, take it the journey, man.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.079
We we want that for you and we need it.
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.960
So, but thank you guys so much for having me.
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:53.920
Tommy, loved having you on, man.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:54.639
Appreciate you.
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:56.159
Appreciate you guys.
00:50:57.039 --> 00:50:58.719
So that's gonna do it for today.
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:02.960
If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:03.760
Take it with you.
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:05.440
Carry it into your week.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:08.719
Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:12.320
And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.400
We'll be back soon with more.
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:19.119
So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.
00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:15.759
Sometimes it's harder for people who've been around Jesus to find the way of Jesus because there's stuff that Jesus said, and I'm like, oh man, what am I gonna do with that?
00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.559
Like, I gotta now I can't unsee it.
00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:26.399
Our core engagement with knowing God is to wrestle with him and to have conflict, um, which most people I find don't do.
00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:35.759
I have a hard time with like the way we sell religion, and right now I care a lot about this next generation, and I worry that they just experience God, but they don't know him.
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:37.679
And that that bothers me.
00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:51.200
I do firmly believe that spiritual formation is I gotta learn something about Jesus, I have to relearn something about Jesus, and I have to unlearn something about Jesus.
00:00:53.920 --> 00:01:11.120
Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:13.599
So that's what we're exploring.
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:19.359
All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.280
Yeah, so so uh Tommy, Tommy and I go way back.
00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.920
Uh closest friend on the planet.
00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:31.599
Uh we uh we talk pretty much every single day.
00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.439
Uh Tommy grew up in uh a little town called Altadena.
00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:38.959
Um I'm gonna stop the disrespect right there.
00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:40.799
Born and raised in Pasadena.
00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:41.760
Can I just take over?
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:43.200
Because this is ridiculous.
00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.359
Uh Luke, our producer, knows Altadena.
00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:50.079
It's it's a first call Altadina.
00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:50.560
All right.
00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:54.400
It's a it's a carton of milk and butter.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:02:00.959
Um, but anyways, so Tommy and I uh we we roomed together in college, best men in each other's weddings.
00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:13.680
Uh Tommy is the CEO of UIWI, um Urban Youth Workers Institute, or if you want to say it phonetically, ooh, we uh Urban Youth Workers.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:20.879
Uh uh Tommy's uh an incredible communicator.
00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:35.599
Uh he has a podcast um called The Radical Middle, um, that he and different um urban youth workers uh kind of you know communicate on about the complexities of this world and and how to navigate it.
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:41.520
Uh he actually uh has a book that just dropped called um embracing the tension.
00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:52.560
And it's really, I think, one of the reasons why I so badly wanted him to come on this podcast because Barks, you and I, we've been talking so much about what it means to follow Jesus.
00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:59.680
And I think uh we'll come back to this after we talk about the Rams, but this concept of like our world is so complex.
00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:04.800
And you know, the church I serve at, we have this phrase following Jesus in a complex world.
00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:19.520
And one of the things that Tommy's been really helpful for me is a framework of how to follow Jesus in the complexity of our world and the divisiveness and the struggle, um, and how to really embrace the radical middle.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:24.240
And so let's talk about following Jesus in a complex world.
00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:31.360
And kind of this concept of what you write about in the tension.
00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:53.360
I think so many of us we're um when things get hard, even just the idea of tension, for many of us, we just we pull away, you know, you you you start ghosting someone that you might have a disagreement about, you um and some of it like you even mentioned it it's could be trauma related.
00:03:53.599 --> 00:04:20.240
There there's there's a bunch of stuff that's happening, but um it feels like the way of Jesus, even if you take the the gospel story of him seated at the right hand of the Father and choosing to enter the broken and beautiful realities of this world, uh it's like his whole ministry was leaning in to embrace um the tension and the radical kind of middle.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:39.199
Talk about why this idea has been so formative for you and how has it shaped your ministry and for for Eric and I, as like pastors and leaders and the people who are listening to the podcast, um, give us an in some insight into why this matters today more than ever.
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:45.199
A lot of it was I was, you know, not to go all the way back, but I was born into tension.
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.560
Like it was like my parents weren't doing really well.
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:52.480
Uh there's infidelity, there was there's a whole bunch of stuff going on.
00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:53.600
Born into that.
00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:56.800
I'm I'm mixed, even though this is what I look like, you know what I mean?
00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.519
I know people can't see it, but I have blue eyes.
00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:04.800
Um, but I I grew up in the black community in Pasadena, California.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.800
Um and uh and so that was my reality.
00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:16.319
I'm like Filipino and all types of European, but feeling like an outsider, but wanting desperately to be a part of it.
00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:17.759
So I grew up in that community.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.560
My dad was in and out, started another family in Mexico.
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:30.160
So I have Mexican brothers and sisters, and so he kind of abandoned um me and and did that, and then we reconciled and we figured all that out.
00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:37.600
But and then I when I came to Jesus, I just when I read uh scripture, I just read all this.
00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:39.920
He's a revolutionary figure to me.
00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:48.879
And yet I was growing up right, you know, coming to Christ in the 90s, early 90s, um, kind of maybe the height of evangelicalism.
00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:54.480
Um, and and yet I read Jesus and I'm like, this guy is revolutionary.
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.560
And then I looked at the church and I thought this isn't very revolutionary.
00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:02.160
This is like status quo, you know, just do these things.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:10.079
And so my engagement with tension happened to just be that's what I lived in all the time, uh, experiencing all that.
00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:20.560
And then I took the the teaching of Jesus seriously, and and then and then when Steve and I were actually we were interns at a church um in Costa Mesa, California.
00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:24.240
And I remember sitting there and it was a it was an up-and-coming church.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.120
Uh Steve, you were the preaching intern, right?
00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:27.439
Yeah.
00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.279
And and I was the youth intern.
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:36.639
And all these beautiful people, it's Orange County, you know, and it was a big worship church, and everybody's worshiping.
00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.920
And I was like sitting there with my arms crossed because I just felt like all these people are hypocrites.
00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:48.560
And and we were on the west side of Costa Mesa and kind of the hood, and it was it was an awesome neighborhood.
00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:50.079
And I'm like, why aren't we doing things here?
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.839
And the church was like, it's not really in our values, we just support people that do.
00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:55.439
And that bothered me.
00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:00.480
And I had a come to Jesus moment, and I just was like, God, your church is full of hypocrites.
00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:02.000
Like, I'm over this.
00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.480
And God just simply kindly said to me, Well, yeah, you're right.
00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:07.680
He like affirmed it.
00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:09.759
Yeah, totally, full of hypocrites.
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.480
And uh, you are the church, so why don't you go do it?
00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:16.959
Like, be the church that you want to see.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:24.000
And that's where Steve and I, um, Steve had started a small group Bible study called, and we called it Solidarity.
00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.920
And we just took that seriously and we were like, why don't we actually go live this out?
00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.480
And we took one verse to keep the bar low.
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.240
Love your neighbor as yourself.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:37.680
And then I went on a on an experiment for 17 years, running and leading that, turning into a nonprofit.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:41.439
And then within that nonprofit, a ton of tension, right?
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:48.800
Immigration, uh, you know, police, uh, um, poverty, um, economics, politics.
00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:50.959
Like it was so difficult.
00:07:51.120 --> 00:08:06.560
And so this whole book is my 25-year journey of, okay, if Jesus tells me things like um, you know, the abundant life in John 10 10, that he's here to give me the abundant life and that his yoke is easy, his burden is light.
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:08.399
I had to reconcile.
00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:13.839
If I believe that the God's word is truth, I had to reconcile how does this actually work.
00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:20.639
Because uh I would I uh Steve knows I'm not for the status quo.
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.839
Like, if this thing's not real and it doesn't work, then I don't want to follow it.
00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:25.040
Like, why waste my time?
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:26.879
Let me go find something else.
00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:44.159
But I went through that journey and man, Jesus rings true and is and and so it wasn't about like you know, not dealing with hard issues, not dealing with, you know, all the issues of sexuality or or politics or the economy, or all that.
00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:50.960
It was rather that if you pressed into it, there's a pathway there to help you become who you were created to be.
00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:00.159
And as you do that, then you actually become can become the vessel to bring healing and light to this world, and that God has a strategy in that.
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:08.159
So that I mean that's kind of like, you know, in short, what why I started all this and what that looks like.
00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:14.080
Um, and it's it's been a wild ride, and um, and it still rings true.
00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.080
Like the gospel still rings true.
00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:22.080
I still wrestle with it, I still uh you know, ask a lot of questions.
00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.279
Um, but there's a pathway that I've I've discovered.
00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:32.320
Um, and man, uh during some of the worst times of my life, some of the most difficult things, like Jesus is it, man.
00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:33.840
There's like nothing else.
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:37.360
So, so I just wrote a book on like a pathway to that.
00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:56.559
I suspect just hearing your story that the last 25 years has informed that book.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:57.600
Uh right?
00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:09.519
Could could you say, like, man, like uh why is it that you chose to write and what is it over the last 25 years that made you write this book?
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:11.440
Because I have a tension with it.
00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:12.000
That's why.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.000
Like, I think the church can do better.
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:27.360
I think it's the mo it can be the most powerful institution in the world, and a lot of ways it has been, but it's also used that power for evil and and destruction, and yet I could see it being like so incredible.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.759
And then my own experience with Jesus has been like there's nothing else, man.
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:32.720
He's incredible.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:39.519
So the tension for me though was I I have a hard time with the Christian industrial complex.
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:59.039
So I I have a hard time with like the way we sell religion and um the way you know things are are structured, and um, like right now I care a lot about this next generation, and I worry that um, you know, we're doing all these big worship um events and things, which is great.
00:10:59.120 --> 00:10:59.679
That's awesome.
00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.600
I have nothing against that.
00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:11.440
But um, but I worry that that kind of industrial complex is just like we should do more of these, and we can make this money and we could sell these albums and all that.
00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.600
And then the generation like they just experience God, but they don't know him.
00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:21.679
And that that bothers me because most churches don't do discipleship.
00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:23.039
It's too hard.
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:25.360
So we just gather a lot of people.
00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:36.000
So I have like this tension with that where I'm like, ah, like I, you know, um, and again, I I came up, you know, listening to public enemy and rage against the machine, and right.
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:43.360
So there's a little punk rock kind of revolutionary, but I've I've given all that to the Lord, and you know, I've been humbled a lot.
00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:47.120
I planted a church, I'm a pastor, I know how hard it is.
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:56.080
On the backside of that, I just was like, God was like, hey Tommy, um, hey, that's really cool that you have all this angst, you know, against you know, all these things.
00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:08.080
But also, um, I've given you a gift in the last 25 years, and I need you to sit down, do the hard work to map that out so that other people can also learn and grow in that.
00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:12.720
So that's really why I wrote the book, because I really struggled with that.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:14.799
Um, and that was attention for me.
00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:32.960
And and through the book, I I explained like what that looks like, um what it looks like to, you know, uh wrestle with truth, and that our core our core engagement with knowing God is to wrestle with him and to have conflict, um, which most people I find don't do.
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.600
And I go, oh man, you're missing it, dude.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:44.399
Um, and Steve was the one that put me on a lot of this, uh, you know, uh the Jewish understanding of knowing God is to wrestle with him.
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.440
And you you find that in Genesis with Jacob.
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.440
And and so I it in that that's that's what this is.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:56.720
And so I've just created a guide to say, okay, here's how I've gone through it.
00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.799
And literally, and Steve knows this because he he loves me, he's walking with me.
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:09.679
I'm going through some really hard things right now, and I find myself actually doing this same process in my life right now.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:12.080
And so it still rings true.
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:15.360
So it's not one of those things where it's like, hmm, I should write a book.
00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:16.799
Like, what should I write about?
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:26.480
It was this is a lived experience that I'm still living in right now, and so that's kind of why why I wrote that this book.
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:32.480
You know, usually when you you talk to someone about writing a book, it's it's very, very flowery.
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:46.399
You know, they're just like everything is, but I think just that the human side of I remember those drives back from the church, and and I was like, Yeah, but like you gotta be in it to change it.
00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.840
And you were like, I don't know if it wants to change, I gotta be outside of it.
00:13:49.919 --> 00:14:00.559
Like, and and and like watching like the prophetic voice that was powerful, but also the humility that you had to learn.
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:17.919
And then I think I like stayed in it, and there was some humbling that happened within me, and and it was just like this amazing ways that the Spirit of God like is relentless in our own sanctification, like that relentless in helping us become more whole and holy.
00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:30.320
But all of it, no matter who you are, and Eric, you you've you've tasted and seen this in in different capacities, requires uh the follower, the disciple, to lean in.
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:41.759
Uh and that I think is uh you know, this underlying current um that's underneath the book is this invitation to lean in to the suffering.
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:52.720
To leave there's an invitation for formation or an invitation for transformation or spiritual formation that comes from the lean in.
00:14:53.679 --> 00:15:00.799
And I think that's um, you know, I we could we could throw out different topics of like, all right, how do you lean in well?
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:12.879
But maybe step back and say, hey, at like a 30,000-foot view, give us give us a little bit of that pathway, like, you know, of what that pathway looks like.
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:24.240
Because what's so amazing is once once people hear the pathway, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, you can drop different topics into the pathway, and you're like, oh, yes, like you mentioned, truth.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.200
Oh, yeah, like let's start here, or let's do so.
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.000
Talk, talk that, talk that out for us.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.399
Uh it's funny, you talk about humbling.
00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:42.159
I Steve and I were on the Camino, and and I was wrestling with writing this book, and there was somebody on the Camino who's an author, and I was spouting off about you know the industrial complex or whatever.
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.440
And and I'm like, oh well, like the nine different steps to do this.
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:52.000
And Steve just pulls me aside and goes, Hey, that guy wrote the nine path, the the nine pathway, or what was it called?
00:15:52.159 --> 00:16:02.399
It's it was it was like this guy's a legend, and he wrote basically about each of the Beatitudes, and it's like the the nine like pathways.
00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:04.559
Ninefold path, ninefold path, yeah.
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:05.759
And it's an awesome book.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:10.720
And I was like, dude, it's not like shut up, dude.
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:17.840
Like, what's the matter with and so I like I just you know uh um people listening will probably be like this guy's an idiot.
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:25.039
Um, but listen, I was I was as I was wrestling with that, I I came to a place and humbled, man.
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:31.279
And and so I did write it as a way of like almost like a hero's journey, like you're going on a backpack trip, like you're on the Camino.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:43.440
So super simple pathway in the sense of and infinitely complex, but um one, I think give yourself the permission to actually decide if you want to take the path of Jesus or not.
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:44.559
That's like where you start.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:55.440
Like you and and I just want to give people permission, like, yeah, you might have grown up in the church or you might have been wrestling with it, or the last like you know, 10 years, you've been like, I don't know if I really believe this.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:05.200
Do the work to actually figure out do I want to you know, walk the path of Jesus, not just my denomination or my church or my family's culture, whatever the thing is.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.640
Okay, stop there, tell me.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:11.119
I think this is what's been so awesome about what Plum Creek is doing.
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:34.960
Um, you know, as someone who's kind of like inside, outside, like um get the privilege to go and teach there from time to time, but to see it from the outside of like these follow um guides, and whether it's on prayer, whether it's on formation, discipleship, like that's that's been like the the piece where people are being introduced and Eric, I don't know, like just like that.
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.000
So resonates with me.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.319
The phrase we use to describe the journey is pretty simple.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:50.000
It's like, well, if Jesus was right about God, about life, about the soul, then it would just make sense to rearrange your life around what he said is true.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:50.319
Yeah.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.519
And and it's it this has been the big journey, though.
00:17:53.680 --> 00:18:06.400
You know, as you said, uh, you know, I grew up uh all I've ever known is uh megachurch uh my whole life that I've been inside of this in the same way that the three of us have.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:14.480
And the thing that I became really convicted about was oh you cannot rearrange your life if you don't know what he said.
00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:19.440
Like there is no rearrangement if you don't know what he said.
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:26.880
And um, I think what we have to do to your point is reintroduce ourselves to this rabbi.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.000
Like, what did he actually say?
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.359
And then wrestle with we say it all the time.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.920
It's like being an admirer, that's it's cool.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.079
Hey, if you want to be an admirer, that's that's cool.
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:42.079
Um that's fine.
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.799
But really, discipleship is all around the single word of rearrangement.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:58.559
It means like something's sitting at the center of your world, something is so uh dude, that does resonate with us because I think that's a hard sometimes.
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:07.119
I wonder if it's harder to um find Jesus uh for someone who's been around the church for a long time.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:08.079
Oh, absolutely.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:21.759
You know how many people I meet that they they come to Christ and they're like this is the greatest thing ever, and then they they get together with the church and they're like it it bums them out because they're like, This isn't how come you guys aren't as excited?
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:22.480
You know what I mean?
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:39.759
And so I so yeah, and and I think if you guys have churches that make space for people to wrestle and ask questions and hard questions, and and a lot of times, you know, we do want to keep the status quo, so we we you you learn the culture really quick, like hey, we don't ask that question, right?
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:46.480
Even up top leadership, when we talk about leadership, yeah, I know you have all the values on the wall, but we're not actually living those out.
00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.000
Can we ask questions about that?
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.000
And so it so that whole thing, so you start with that.
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.319
Do you are you even interested in the ways of Jesus?
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:55.920
Like, do the work, like figure it out.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:01.119
Because don't don't waste your time with all these years and showing up to services and do that if you're really not in it.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.519
Like, I would just be like, oh, be free of that.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.079
But if you're interested and you're you want to, okay, go on, start on the path of Jesus.
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:14.240
And for a lot of people, they feel like they've already gone down that road, but they actually didn't know Jesus.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:26.720
Like they went down the Southern Baptist road, or they went down the charismatic road, or they went down like, and there were pieces of Jesus, but it wasn't like that, wasn't what you said, like the source of it, like the core, right?
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:35.920
So once you do that, then I we just simply go kind of like what I call the planes of truth, and you have to wrestle with truth.
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.640
And uh, the big point there is that truth is a person.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.240
Why would God do that?
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.039
Because, yes, truth is black and white, you know, it's not relative.
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:51.759
However, you're called into the gray of relationship, and and how do you actually live out the truth?
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:53.680
And that's really hard for people.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.720
When the adulterous woman, you know, they're gonna stone her.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.160
He he basically is like, hey, anybody condemn you?
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.079
She's like, No, he's like, then neither do I.
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:29.440
He just erased a line.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:36.799
She there was a sin there, and he erased the line, and then right after he goes, Hey, go and sin no more, and then he draws the line again.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.799
So, how do we do that?
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:43.680
And it takes work and intentionality, and then and then you get to really fun parts.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.160
I think what you were saying earlier, Steve.
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.839
I I talk about the the caverns of identity and going in.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.039
Who are you really made?
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.160
And then you get to the hip the switchbacks of hypocrisy.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.599
And I think one of the an easy thing for your guys' churches to hear, and whoever's listening to this, one of the best.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.319
Spiritual practices that you can do is to confront your own hypocrisy.
00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:13.759
And it's one of the hard like people hate to do that, but listen, you can't do it outside of the ways of Jesus because you can't.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:22.400
There's parts of the body of Christ that sit there and they, you know, they just beat themselves up, which honestly is just them working their way to heaven, right?
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:31.279
They feel like if I'm contrite enough, if I'm like, oh, I'm the worst, and I'm just a worm, and I'm I'm I'm I'm wretched, and I'm just, you know, and you're punishing yourself.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.319
Well, then what was Jesus' work on the cross for?
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:41.759
So, so there's that side of it, and then there's also the other side of it, and just going like, but I am, I have done wrong.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:42.880
I am a hypocrite.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.000
How do I receive that and then do better?
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:56.880
Like, and only through the power of Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and you know, uh the power that we have over sin through Christ, can we even actually engage in that?
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:58.480
And yet, that's the pathway.
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:05.200
And so many people, they don't they want to ask for forgiveness once and then never want to ask for forgiveness again, right?
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.519
Like, let's just do that one thing once.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:08.880
And I that was so uncomfortable.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:11.279
I don't ever want to do that again with anybody else.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:21.759
And so there's a pathway there that when you embrace that, that tension that we find within ourselves, it's actually the path to your healing and your wholeness.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:32.400
But if you don't have people doing that, and we're just showing up at a service once a week to hear the pastor's process of what they're going through, and I go, hmm, that's good.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.480
And then I never go through it myself.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:35.200
Yeah, right.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.359
Oh man, that you're missing it, dude.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.400
You're wasting your time.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:46.079
So, and then it and then you know, the journey can kind of goes on, and and we talk about you know the heights of purpose and the valley of compassion.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:58.880
And there's a bunch of theology in there that I want to help, especially leaders, pastors, and people who are involved in the kingdom of God, like understand um, you know, a theology of work and suffering and per presence.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.839
And then the last chapter is really just talking about what you guys are both trying to do in your churches.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:10.880
What if, as you continue to grow into this person, what if there's a whole group of these types of people in the world?
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.960
And it's a really easy jump to go, that would be amazing.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:21.200
The world would be a million times better if you had groups of people that went through this process.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:29.599
So we bro, I want to talk about uh two things specifically um out of your book.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:44.000
I want to talk about you know the depths of nuance, but I want to say like um uh what what we've been working through as a community is actually reintroducing the ideas of Jesus.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.359
So um we released a guide that are the 93 things that Jesus said in just the Gospel of Matthew.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.079
That's awesome.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:25:07.920
With a because I I had this thought, I'm like, man, to your point, I'm like, oh, you you may have walked down a road that has pieces of Jesus, but what would it look like if you just our whole church um walked through all that he said?
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:08.400
Yeah.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:15.759
And then so on one side it's like, here's what he said, here's a brief little thought, and then journal on the other side.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:41.680
Imagine doing the work of like confronting, because I I got to thinking, you know, when you when we talk about uh you know the human experience and and um moving someone beyond what they've known, you know, specifically, you know, we're we're challenging people to look their bias right in the eye.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:52.720
Like, you know, there's a confirmation bias that exists, even with the way of Jesus, where we go, we judge all these new ideas on how easily they fit and confirm the old ideas.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:26:20.240
So it's like it this is why I say sometimes it's harder for people who've been around Jesus to find the way of Jesus, because dude, I I mean I worked on this thing for the last 18 months, and it can it messed with me because like there's stuff that Jesus said, and I'm like, oh man, what on what am I gonna do with that?
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:23.599
Like, I gotta I now I can't unsee it.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:24.880
You know what I mean?
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:26.000
Absolutely, man.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:33.119
I'm just like, I'm excited that you're being courageous enough to do it because what it'll do is as you jump, let's talk about nuance.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:40.319
As a as you guys lead pastors of these like significant churches, a lot of stuff's happening.
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.559
There's a tendency for us to be like, I it's a weird thing.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.680
Like, I've got to know all the things, right?
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.680
I've I've gotta like Steve's gotta be the smartest guy in the room, right?
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:57.119
Or you know, Eric's gotta know, like, just have wisdom, like just hit every time somebody comes to you.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.599
And the reality is like that's just not true.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:03.119
Like, it's okay for you guys to just be like, I don't know.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:03.680
You know what?
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:05.279
I haven't dealt with that yet.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:12.240
I and I like we're we're doing it, and because you're nervous, because like, oh my gosh, like what like why would people want to follow me?
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.039
Are they gonna stay?
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:14.319
Are they gonna grow deeper?
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:18.559
Like, but but that's where we want to reframe all this for people.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:23.839
Like, I just want to give a different paradigm, same, same gospel, same Bible, yeah, same truth.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:32.160
I just want to give either an ancient way of understanding it or a different framework for our context today to say, hey, one, that's okay.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.559
It's okay you're on the journey, you have questions.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:36.559
It how is this working?
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:38.880
I you know, like that's a big question for me.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.880
I just go, how's this working?
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:48.480
And if I believe this is truth, then I've got I the the onus is on me to figure out then how does it actually work out?
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:56.160
Um, and and so there's a lot of that in there, and you can't have that without conversation.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.279
And so a lot of the thing with nuance is that the relationship is the conversation, and the conversation is the relationship.
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.440
How how deep are your conversations with God?
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:07.359
Because you've written about this, yeah.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.920
Why why is it that you think people struggle with the the nuance piece?
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.559
What why is it that people struggle with that?
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:24.799
On a real simple level, here in here in in Southern California, right, we drive crazy fast on freeways, right?
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:26.799
Like Steve knows.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:35.680
And you can ask anybody, and maybe you know where you guys are at too, who's ever's listening, has anybody ever cut you off to get off to you know off the freeway?
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:37.359
And you're like, dude, what the heck?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:46.880
You know, and they they go over that median, you know, the the the triangle, and they're kicking up dust because they're you know, and you're like, dude, what's your problem?
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:52.960
Um, well, and you can be upset at that person, and then and then you do it.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:57.039
And when you did it though, it was I I had to get to the hospital.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.480
Like you don't know what's going on.
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:11.279
Like I, you know, I was late for work, uh, whatever the thing is, like just our innate human nature is to be like, well, I have a lot of nuance for myself, but I have very little for anybody else.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:21.279
And that has to do with all of our brokenness and drama and all the things that like, how can I, how can I give so much grace to me, or maybe I'm not giving grace to me.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.200
Maybe my internal voice is so harsh, and that's why I'm harsh on other people.
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:26.880
And that's why you get that, right?
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:31.119
Where you're like, oh, these lazy people, I did it and I pulled myself up on my own.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.160
Why can't they do it?
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.519
And it doesn't, it doesn't smell, taste, feel anything of Jesus.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:46.079
And what that tells me is because people react that way and I react that way, it means that I don't understand the full gospel.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.079
It means that I haven't wrestled with it enough.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.640
It means that I haven't like fully understood it and understood what Jesus did for me.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:00.960
And until you can continue do that that process and receive that, dude, the gospel's not that great of news.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:03.920
Like it's like, oh, cool, I don't get to go to hell.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.440
Um, how about you want to live in heaven now?
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:08.640
Like, there's parts of that.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:12.160
Like, you how about you want to be more of who you're created to be?
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.319
Do you want to see your relationships be healed?
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.759
Do you want to live with purpose?
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.720
Do you want to, you know, your identity be shaped and formed?
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.319
Like that all that's found in the nuance.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.440
And the nuance isn't so that you can be like wishy-washy, right?
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.519
Like, well, hey, whatever you want, man.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:34.880
You know, it's more like the it's a barometer to go, man, uh, why does that person irritate me so much?
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:40.640
Probably because you see parts of you in that person that irritate you and bother you.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.759
Well, if you just capture that and press into that, then there's a pathway there.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.599
God's inviting you, He's always up to something.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:50.799
So He's like, Yeah, let's let's have that conversation.
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:57.599
And and people are so afraid of that because they're not good at conflict, they don't want to go through the pain of it.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:22.720
I do firmly believe that spiritual formation is I gotta learn something about Jesus, I have to relearn something about Jesus, and I have to unlearn something about Jesus.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:31.920
And those three pieces on the regular, and and going, man, like I uh man, I gotta, and I gotta have grace for myself in in all of those processes.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:40.799
When I'm relearning something about Jesus, then I'm like, dude, I should know better, I know better, and yet I still don't get this.
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:54.960
Or, man, I thought I was so right in this moment, or but I don't understand forgiveness or reconciliation in the way that Paul writes about it or Jesus embodies.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:03.519
I man, I I just I want grace and I want mercy and I want everybody else to experience justice.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:08.319
Like, I don't want justice, you know, and and and and then I gotta unlearn that.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.400
I gotta unlearn, no, I actually deserve justice too.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:22.640
So what makes me get to receive grace and not be able to give that to another person in a way that's not wishy-washy to what you're saying.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:30.319
So, so walk us through that because I think I think again, these are those moments where people are listening, going, yeah, yeah, I want that.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.880
And I think leaders ask why questions.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.119
I think most congregations are asking how questions.
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.640
Well, how do I do it, man?
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:47.359
How did how how how how do I and you can just say like, well, go read the book, or you know, but but like how how in your own life, um, do you walk this out?
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:49.839
That's a great question.
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:51.519
I'll give you a it is a great question.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:51.839
Thanks.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.200
No, I mean it's like, is this your first podcast?
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:57.599
No, that's you're doing really great, Steve.
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:23.680
Um I uh so I had a neighbor once, uh, and on this neighbor had a truck, and and they had they had they would create, okay, so like go somewhere and create these stickers that were like these um super political stickers, and they pasted them all over the truck, and it was against one certain party about and they were like super offensive, and it was all over the truck, right?
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:35.359
And and I was just always like, ah, this guy, you know, and I got to know him or whatever, and and I was like, okay, you know, if he ever found out some of the things I believe, he would he would hate me, you know what I mean?
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.440
So he had this truck, all this crazy political stickers all over it.
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:46.880
Um, and then the school um you know sends out an email and goes, Hey, you should check Megan's Law.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.480
And Megan's Law is the the website that shows all the sex predators, right?
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.039
Um in your area.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:56.559
Guess who was on there?
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:58.000
Yeah, my neighbor.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:59.119
You know what I mean?
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:18.159
And and I and I so this thing happens, and I'm like, dude, so I'm living right next to, you know, uh sexual predator who's on this list, and I'm like, and yet he has this this truck that has all these like things that are that are against this certain group of people.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:26.719
And to me, I'm like sitting there feeling pretty self-righteous, like, dude, how could you even say any of this stuff against any other group when you're this?
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:28.159
This is who you are.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:35.920
And then, and then as I'm thinking through that, I'm I'm you know, I'm my just normal time in scripture.
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:42.320
I'm reading through uh the gospels and and I'm going, I have to wrestle with.
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:46.639
So the first step is you have to be in God's word and you have to wrestle with it.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:54.079
And I'm wrestling with it, going, like, okay, God, I know, you know, like Romans tells me that all of sin falls short of the glory of God.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:59.599
I feel like God, some people have fallen a lot farther than others, right?
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:03.599
Like, but I had to sit, so I had to sit and wrestle with God's word.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:04.880
So that's step one.
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:11.119
You have to be in God's word enough, like Eric said, to like wrestle with it and then apply that to your life.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:18.639
So now I'm next door to this guy and I'm like, okay, he like this guy's the he's terrible.
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:24.480
And yet I'm like, man, but him and I to a holy God have fallen.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.119
We both are in the same spot.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.360
So what do I do with that?
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:33.360
And then how do I, as a as a dad of five children, right?
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:37.920
At the time, you know, um, I'm like, how do I engage with that?
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:39.840
And how does Jesus see this guy?
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:43.039
And then how do I engage with wisdom, right?
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:46.159
Because I'm not like, yeah, dude, hey, can you watch my kids for me?
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:46.880
No, dude.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:47.599
You know what I mean?
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.079
Like, but also with like, how do I see him in the way that Jesus sees him?
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:56.000
And then how can I actually display the kingdom of God to this man?
00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:00.159
Like, okay, that's it's it's right there.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:08.800
And so part of that is right, I so I have to first step, I have to be in God's word and I have to wrestle with it in my life.
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:15.679
Second step, I have to actually spend the time, and this means that you guys have to have margin to sit and think through this stuff.
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:23.519
You you actually have to wrestle with it, you have to talk about it, you have to like figure that out and how does it actually work out, right?
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:25.519
You can't do that with everything all the time.
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:31.760
You can just, God's gonna put things in front of you, the scripture that you're reading, your life, there's enough there.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.400
Take that one thing, capture it, and think through it.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:38.559
And then I have to practice what does it look like then?
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:40.480
What does the gospel mean in my life?
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:44.480
And that means I have to practice forgiveness and being forgiven.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.400
And I know that might seem like a large like jump.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:53.519
Like, um, how do you go from like, you know, think God's word to thinking about this to forgiveness?
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.239
It's because I have unforgiveness in my heart.
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:59.679
So with my neighbor, I could be like, dude, that guy's a piece, dude.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:01.199
Like, screw that guy.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.760
Oh man, I okay.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:10.480
If God tells me that um if I don't forgive, I won't be forgiven.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.960
Ooh, I okay, what does that mean?
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.039
And and how is this guy actually offended?
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:16.079
Hey, like, I don't know.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.119
Do I need to forgive?
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:18.400
Like, how does that work?
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.760
I have to think through that.
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:29.440
And then as I do that, I have to like then like ultimately, I just have to have that that consistent self-reflection.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.000
I have to confront my own hypocrisy.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.800
Where am I not living that out?
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:36.079
How am I?
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.920
Where are the areas that I've sinned?
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:43.199
And then I need and then I go back to to forgiveness, and I I need to then deal with that with God.
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:49.519
And then the last thing is, um, if it's possible, I have the conversation, right?
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.280
I have the conversation with God.
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.599
Hey, I'm better than this guy, God.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:55.599
You know what I'm saying?
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.960
Like, and objectively, I could be like, uh, I am.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:00.559
I haven't done what he's done.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.639
And also I have to work through, but I'm I can also be a piece.
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:07.360
You know what I mean?
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:18.559
Like, I I can like do the things that go on in my head, the things that I say, my anger, the way that I you don't don't want to forgive people, or I want to, you know, get back at somebody that hurt me.
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:32.559
Like, there's all that stuff, and see that journey of just dealing with nuance and all this, because then I can have the conversation not only with God, but then if there's conflict with others, I can have that conversation with them as well.
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:34.719
This is this is the work.
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:36.639
You know, this is the work.
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:50.079
And in and you know, um, Eric spent some time with Dallas Willard, and you know, um, and uh Tommy, uh Tommy was my roommate, Eric, when I would call Dallas every day.
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:51.679
Um, you remember that, Tommy?
00:38:51.840 --> 00:39:05.440
Like when I got his home number and from USC, and I would just leave him a message and I would call um be like, hey Dallas, I read Divine Conspiracy, and I just would like call like on the on the on the regular and you're like Chris Harley or Chris.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:07.679
Yeah, it was uh I really liked your book.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:10.960
Yeah.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:13.119
So about time when you wrote that.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:21.360
But one of his great phrases, you know, is um, you know, Grace is opposed to earning, but never opposed to effort.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:37.119
What I what I want to ask, and I mean this in all seriousness and also playfulness, is does it feel like too much work for so many people?
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:38.559
You know what I mean?
00:39:38.639 --> 00:40:01.199
Like in and like what that process you laid out, like it is the work, you have to do that work, and uh it feels like in this day and age the spiritual musculature that we have shaped and formed people hasn't been to lean in and do that work, and so it's almost like that feels like a triathlon.
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.760
I just is there a way I can just get the 5k like can I get the 5k, Jesus?
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:18.880
Can I just get like can I just get like I see so much easier for my life to get heaven and not have to even deal with that dude and think everything I want to think, allow the energy to go through my body.
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:20.320
Can't stand that guy.
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:21.440
He's a bad dude.
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:22.320
I'm awesome.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:37.840
Jesus knows I'm awesome, and I'm gonna I'm gonna highlight John 10 10 because um not the part where the thief steals, kills, and destroys, but the part that says that there's a life abundance and overflowing, and like I want that life, I just don't want to do the work.
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:47.199
So I love that because in those verses, right, you do have those two, like that he does talk about the thief and the enemy, and and that's what I'm talking about.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.639
It's like, what is it?
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.119
What's the vision for those of you who are listening?
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:52.960
What's the vision for your life?
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:58.159
And what's the point of following Jesus if you're not gonna receive all that he has to give for you?
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.360
And so if you want the abundant life, there's the other side of that.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:08.000
When you don't press into it, man, the thief is killing, stealing, destroying, and continues to do so.
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:13.840
And and that just continues to make the world worse and worse and worse, and then it's just this vicious cycle.
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:15.280
But that's the piece, though.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:27.360
That's the piece, is I think that the there's a blindness to people going, I've got the abundant life, and they don't know that what's happening is something is being stolen, killed, and destroyed.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:28.719
Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:29.840
And I know that from my own life.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:36.800
I don't mean that projection on top, I just know that, like, oh, I got it, I got it, and then it's like, why don't I feel so empty or so tired?
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:45.760
Bro, Carter, I just heard this in the past week, and uh it uh it's all about like what's called a complexity bias.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:51.519
Our brain is wired to prefer a simple lie to a complex truth.
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:52.079
Wow.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:42:18.800
So it is why we it's why to to do what Tommy just said, like the the amount of work that it takes to take a complex truth, which Jesus lays out in Matthew when he talks about, he lays out that parable, he talks about uh the guy who um had so much to pay back, the amount of what he had to pay back was astronomical, right?
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:20.719
You could never pay it back.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:30.079
And the the whole idea is that you're so angry with other people who owe such little debt, and you don't realize how big your debt is.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.119
It's what you're saying, but that's a complex truth.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:49.280
And and we are this this would be my formation challenge to someone is how many times have you looked across at someone and just made a simple, well, that's just it's them and me.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:51.039
Us and them.
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:56.960
Whether you do it with a party, a political party, you do it with a person, your neighbor.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:05.280
The the work is, is there a complex truth at play here that I just don't want to do the work to see.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:33.679
So here's here's something that I because I don't want to overwhelm people either, right?
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:36.079
I don't want to be like, dude, that's too hard, I can't do it.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:39.360
You can absolutely do this, and here's why you go.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:44.639
So you're right, you're in the switchbacks of hypocrisy, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so hard.
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.920
You come back to is Jesus the way?
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.440
And then you wrestle with the truth, and the truth is a person.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:44:01.920
And so God makes it in this way where he's like, Hey, listen, like it is it is complex truth, that's true, but it's just Me, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:03.440
Come and be with me.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:15.840
And so, so if you're like overwhelmed by that, you can simply just go, I'm just gonna go be with Jesus, which I mean by so if you're gonna go be with Jesus, you got He's given you a book, right?
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:16.719
I joke all the time.
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:24.239
I speak to a lot to youth and young adults, and I'm like, Can you imagine what it'd be like if our spouses gave us a book and said, Here, read this.
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:25.440
This is this is all about me.
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:26.719
That would have been so helpful, right?
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:28.159
And God's given us that grace.
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.760
Here's a whole book about me.
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:31.280
So learn about him.
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:41.679
Um, you have the Holy Spirit, like engage with the Holy Spirit, ask questions, learn to hear God's voice, like actually have the conversation, spend time listening, write that stuff down.
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:44.800
It'll never, it'll never go against scripture, right?
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:48.159
So, you know, spend time in prayer, go on walks with God.
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:55.360
Um, if you have a hard time with this, really practically speaking, when you go on walks, go on a walk, which you should anyway, because it's healthy for you.
00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:01.920
Go on a walk, go somewhere where you can speak out loud and just talk out loud to God.
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:07.199
Because when you pray that way, your brain can only focus on what you're saying.
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:08.079
It can't.
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:14.320
So if you only pray in your mind, you're gonna have like, oh, I need this from the grocery store, or what I'm worried about this.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:26.719
Like, speak it out and then wait and listen, and then just allow yourself the the pleasure and also the risk of going, okay, God, speak to me, and just and learn how to do that, right?
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:31.840
So go, you you carve out time, you put it on your calendar, you go and spend time with God.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:34.079
That will reveal truth to you.
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:41.840
Like, right now, the way that you make sure that's not just your truth and you're just coming up with whatever you want is that's why the church is so important.
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.239
And the other aspect of that is wisdom.
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:51.840
If you feel like God's like, leave your family and and go to the desert and you know, quit your job, like that's not wise.
00:45:52.079 --> 00:46:07.199
And you need to have people, that's why the church, the people of God, um, are in your life so that that they can also do the same process your process that you're doing and affirm or or um push back on, you know, the truth that you're experiencing.
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:18.639
So at the end of the day, yes, you need to sit and you think through this and you know, but look who God like Jesus picked out these probably they were teenagers, right?
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.480
These knuckleheads, right?
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:22.880
And and Peter's a little bit older.
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:29.519
Uh so if those are who he picked, you know, to to follow him, you can do it too.
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.480
And you can see even when Peter was a lot older, he was still struggling with stuff.
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:40.559
So this journey never ends until you die, and then it continues on into eternity in knowing God.
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:45.440
The the the gift of the gospel is that you can experience that now, pieces of that.
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:47.039
That I mean, that's the good news.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:48.480
So that's what I would say.
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:50.800
So I I yeah, I loved how you frame that, Steve.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.519
And I don't want to overwhelm people, but this is the work.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:58.159
And some of you that are listening, you're mature in Christ and you're not doing this stuff.
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:04.000
So, so you don't have an excuse, press on, do the hard work.
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:11.760
You're in your 60s, 70s, 80s, go back to your family, ask for forgiveness, like be humble, continue to grow.
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:14.400
Like, this there's still more for you.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:20.880
No matter how long you followed or know the Bible, like God is infinite in His in His goodness.
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:23.119
And so, why wouldn't you want that?
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:24.559
And I'll I'll end with this.
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.199
But what's uh the great Ruth Bell Graham's tombstone?
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:35.519
You know, it says like date she was born, the date she passed, and like literally Billy Graham's wife on her tombstone.
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:38.480
It says, end of construction, thanks for your patience.
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:40.800
That's on her tombstone, you know what I mean?
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:42.639
It's like that's your point, Tommy.
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:58.320
Like, here's here is this like saint of a woman, and she understood, oh, this side of heaven, I I will never be done being shaped and formed and my life built on the cornerstone, Jesus.
00:47:58.400 --> 00:47:59.679
Like, it's it's constant.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:00.880
That's sanctification.
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:02.559
That is the beauty of the Holy Spirit.
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:04.719
That is the beauty of knowing God's word.
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:09.199
That is the beauty, but God's never gonna force that on us.
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:15.760
He's gonna invite us to just come to watch, to be, to learn, to put.
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:22.960
Um, and I was just even reading like Colossians, like with my small group, and and like just amazing.
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:30.159
Like, you can like hover with these amazing verses of like, oh man, you know, Christ is in us.
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.239
Um, that's the hope of glory.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:41.039
And you know, like you can go to all this, and then like totally skip, like put to death, get rid of like you're like, no, no, no, no, Christ, the hope of glory, man.
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:41.599
That's awesome.
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:42.000
That's it.
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:42.400
I love that.
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:43.119
Seven words.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:44.800
Yeah, bro.
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.639
But then I saw the plans I have for you.
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.199
Yeah, totally.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:49:00.079
And you're like, you sit there and you're like, oh, put to get rid of all the anger and the rage and the slander, the mal like that's put to death, these parts of that old self.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:01.519
Like, that's the work.
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.599
And I think that's that invitation of not trying harder.
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:21.039
Like, as my friend Andy Kolber says, like, no, no, you try softer, but like, man, when you have grace and God and the spirit and Jesus, um, you don't gotta like it's more just this soft ability to allow the work to be done.
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:23.440
So, Tommy, where can people find you?
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.760
Um, because really grateful for what you just shared.
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:31.920
Dude, I uh yeah, socials like at Tommy U Y W I, which I know is like the worst acronym.
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:32.800
Tommy Uwe.
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:33.679
Ooh.
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.000
Um, but yeah, Tommy Nixon just searched it up and you can find the book everywhere.
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:40.480
You know, it's on Amazon and Barnes Noble.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:43.039
And um it and so yeah, would love.
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:44.400
I hope it's helpful to people.
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:52.880
I mean, what the only thing I want people to take away from this is like listen to three witnesses tell you this is the best way.
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:54.800
Didn't take away all the suffering.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.719
I've I incredible amount of pain in my life.
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:03.360
And and I would still be like, nope, this is the way.
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:08.639
Like, I like it's not so I can sell more books or get more speaking, like I could care less.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:11.840
It's like literally, this is the greatest.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.599
And I just want more people to experience it, and I want to experience it more.
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:21.840
And so I I would just hope that people go, okay, maybe, maybe I believe these three jokers, you know what I mean?
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.199
Like, all right, I'll try it and and take that next step.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:37.280
And I'm so thankful for uh churches like your guys's, you know, that can that that are creating guides, you know, and that's all we need to want to be is I'm a guide as I'm being guided.
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:38.079
That's it.
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:40.320
And and everybody listening to this, guess what?
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:41.519
You're called to that as well.
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:43.599
And you can't lead people where you haven't been.
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:46.159
So, man, take it the journey, man.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.079
We we want that for you and we need it.
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.960
So, but thank you guys so much for having me.
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:53.920
Tommy, loved having you on, man.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:54.639
Appreciate you.
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:56.159
Appreciate you guys.
00:50:57.039 --> 00:50:58.719
So that's gonna do it for today.
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:02.960
If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:03.760
Take it with you.
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:05.440
Carry it into your week.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:08.719
Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:12.320
And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.400
We'll be back soon with more.
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:19.119
So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.
