The Negotiation Skills Every School Leader Needs with Scott Walker

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Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
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of FocusED where we shine a light on what matters
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most in education today. I'm Joe and TJ and we
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are the Schoolhouse 302. FocusED is a collaborative
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program with our partners from the Delaware Department
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of Education and Wilmington University where
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we bring you innovative conversations from thought
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leaders, practitioners, and educational voices
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that are shaping the future of teaching and learning.
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At the end of the show, definitely listen to
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our message about our sponsor, Bullseye. It's
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a solution you need to be a stronger instructional
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we are all about that here at The Schoolhouse
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302. And don't forget to follow us at theschoolhouse302
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.com and like and share for more leadership content
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and to connect with us for leadership coaching.
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professional learning, and more. As always, we
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hope that you enjoyed this episode of FocusED,
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and we can't wait to hear from you. Hello, everyone,
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and welcome to FocusED, where we invite expert
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guests to join us, and we are absolutely thrilled
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to have Scott Walker on the show with us. Welcome
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to the show, Scott. Yeah, thanks. Great to be
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here. Well, we're totally excited. And tonight
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we're focused on finding order in the chaos,
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thriving during times of adversity and becoming
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expert communicators. So TJ, why don't you tell
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us a little bit more about Scott? Sure thing.
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Scott Walker spent 16 years as a Scotland Yard
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detective engaged in covert counter -terrorist
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and kidnapping operations, successfully resolving
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more than 300 cases. He left the police force
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in 2015 to support organizations, government
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departments, and private individuals in negotiating
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the release of hostages all over the world. He's
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a sought after worldwide speaker and he coaches
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executives and leaders at all levels on how to
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enhance their resilience, develop their emotional
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intelligence and protect their communication
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skills. He consults with companies to help them
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build a resilient culture and develop engaged,
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fulfilled, purpose driven and productive teams.
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We're going to get into a bunch of that. This
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evening, Scott, I want to start here with your
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book, Order Out of Chaos. And I feel like the
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central theme or central argument or one of them
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is that disorder often is the starting point
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of growth rather than the enemy of it. What first
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convinced you that chaos could actually be constructive?
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Well, that's a great question straight off the
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bat there. I think chaos and conflict is something
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that we often run away from. But I would always
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say to people, actually, conflict is not a dirty
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word. But let me just unpack that a little before
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somebody starts kicking back on that. Basically,
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when we get uncomfortable, when there's conflict,
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when there's disagreement, when there's uncertainty,
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we can kind of want to avoid it. or we fight
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or we allow the amygdala to take over you know
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the whole fight and flight and the prefrontal
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cortex part of our brain that's responsible for
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you know wiser more objective rational thinking
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kind of kind of reduces um and in a in a kidnapping
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case you know these life or death high stakes
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high emotion where as you can imagine there's
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lots of conflict at least initially and It taught
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me about how you've got to move towards it. You've
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got to move towards the conflict and embrace
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it and have and learn to have really difficult
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conversations. And the caveat I'll ask really
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or make here is this is not about being rude
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or belligerent or argumentative. It's simply
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moving towards it and staying grounded. and calm
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as much as possible we can go to some of those
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techniques in a moment and that allows you to
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kind of be comfortable with being uncomfortable
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and then get curious and find out what's really
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driving the other person and driving that conflict
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and then from that place you can make better
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decisions and have better conversations which
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is ultimately what negotiation is all about and
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you may be thinking well this is all very interesting
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scott but What's this got to do with my job?
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And all I say to people is life is one big negotiation,
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right? Simply a conversation with the purpose
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that we're looking to bring about influence and
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persuasion and above all, cooperation and collaboration
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wherever possible. And if we can do that, if
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that's our mindset, it can help us overcome the...
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the conflict. I know it's quite a long answer
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to a pretty straightforward question, but hopefully
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it gives you some insight there. No, it's a great
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overview, I think, of the conversation to come
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and you hit on a lot of different points there.
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And Scott, I want to make some inroads into the
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book. And you did say, you know, what does this
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have to do with me? And as educators, obviously,
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we're not in these life or death situations,
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although they can exist. But in the book, you
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vividly describe the red center. It's something
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that, you know, as I read, I really took a lot
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of stock in, thought about it. And when you mentioned
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the amygdala just a second ago, I thought about
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like the central nervous system. And the central
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nervous system in a hostage negotiation situation,
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it's the same. as a heated IEP meeting or a student
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disciplinary hearing. You know, it's the same
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biological constructs. Can you describe what
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happens to us biologically in those tense moments,
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in those heated exchanges? But how do we find
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our inner red center? And I really think our
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audience could benefit from that. Yeah, the red
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center concept. On a hostage case, on a crisis
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and a kidnapping case, it's usually the physical
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location where the communications are taking
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place from us. That could be the family of the
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hostage. It could be the company with employees
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being taken and communicating with the kidnappers,
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usually by telephone. And as you can imagine,
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it's a tense, really uncomfortable, high stakes,
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high emotion environment. And, but eventually
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over time, my job was to bring order out of chaos
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from that, which is where the title of the book
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came from. And over hundreds of cases, you know,
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300 odd cases, 15 plus years, I realized that
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actually this place, Red Center, it's also a
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metaphor, as you alluded to. It's also this place
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within each and every one of us. It's seen as
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an inner fortress, an inner citadel, a place
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that. um we we need to realize that no matter
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what is put in front of us however difficult
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the person the situation the circumstances we
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have this inner ability to withstand that otherwise
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it wouldn't be put in front of us in the first
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place and somehow we'll find a way to overcome
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that now some people may think well that's a
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bit whatever but actually if you think about
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it You've got to find and accept reality as you
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find it, not as you would wish it to be. And
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we have to take that personal responsibility.
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And then we're in this position. And the way
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we can kind of tap into that inner red center,
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the inner fortress, so to speak, is imagine you
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stood on a riverbank and there's a river flowing
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in front of you. And that's the emotion that
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you're experiencing, both you and other people.
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And it's swirling in front of you. And occasionally
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what happens, life pushes you in the river. But
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you get out, you dry yourself off and you kind
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of carry on with your day. But occasionally what
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also happens is we get pushed in. Life pushes
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us in. And then rather than getting out, we end
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up going for a swim. And then we get taken out
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to sea. And then we start to drown in the ways
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of overwhelm and conflict. Whereas what we want
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to do, if we do fall in, that's fine. But we
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get out. We don't start swimming in that. And
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we try and stay on the riverbank. And the best
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way to describe to me was to observe but not
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absorb. So we want to observe what's going on.
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from that slightly detached place, almost like
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a balcony view on the riverbank. And this is
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not about ignoring, pushing away, suppressing
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any emotion, far from it. It's like I mentioned
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at the beginning, it's turning and facing the
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difficult emotion. But feeling the feeling, noticing
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where it shows up in our body, for me, before
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every phone call with the kidnappers, it would
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be... like a churning in the stomach it was it
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wasn't nerves or fear per se but i just got this
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churning and and i knew i had to bring my attention
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to that i had to feel the feeling but drop the
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story forget the story i'm telling myself about
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why i'm feeling guys needed to feel it and allow
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that to dissipate because what happens is when
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we get our hot buttons get activated or people
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like to use the term triggered now What happens
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is you get cortisol and adrenaline being pumped
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through your body. And you can't do anything
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about that biologically. It just happens. It's
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a fight or flight mechanism from millions of
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years ago over through evolution. So we just
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need to be able to ride the wave. And I have
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this three -step process that I discovered the
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hard way. And I can share the story in a moment,
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if you want, about how I discovered this. this
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this three -step process to really harness that
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red scent and to prevent yourself from being
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nudged in and going for a swim and the first
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step is to interrupt the pattern and that could
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be if you're sat down and you engage in a bit
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of a heated dialogue or you're getting a bit
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stressed or a bit overwhelmed or your hot buttons
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are being pressed stand up and go get some fresh
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air Take some deep breaths, go and get a drink,
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listen to some music, but something that's going
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to stop you from continuing in that negative
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spiral. And then the second step, as I've alluded
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to, is riding that cortisol or adrenaline wave.
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And you have about 90 seconds to do that. And
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then anything longer than 90 seconds, and you
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just press and repeat on the loop inside your
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head, the story. And then we move to step three.
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Once you're regulated and your autonomic nervous
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system is balanced and those swirling emotions
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have dissipated, step three is you can ask better
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questions. You know, those really great searching
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what and how questions. What was all that about?
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What have I missed? What are the opportunities
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here? How could I do that differently? Questions
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that you would never wanted to ask when you've
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gone for a swim in the river because all you
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want to do is prove that you're right, they're
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wrong, blame name or shame. Whereas actually
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the call light of day, you know, I'm sure I can't
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be the only one on this call that has pressed
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send or said something within that first 90 seconds
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and then regret it and try to get it back, but
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it's too late. Scott, I really like the three
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steps. I think listeners can take those steps
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away. for sure and use them, implement them in
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practice. And I really love the biology, the
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cortisol pumping through our veins. about how
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long that takes to dissipate etc i want to take
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one step backwards though and talk about the
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mistakes that people make on their way to getting
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to the three steps because i feel like the panic
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sets in and then all of a sudden we're doing
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things to ourselves that are going to cause us
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to fall into that into that river and i was thinking
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about the metaphor and swimming with the current
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to get out of it rather than against it but are
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there things that people do that hinder their
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ability to even get to step one to even think
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to do those steps yeah the what people generally
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try and do is they make any negotiation any conversation
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of importance particularly when it starts to
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get heated they make it all about themselves
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it's all about me myself and i and the golden
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rule one of the golden rules of successful negotiation
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no matter what context is it's not about you
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and there's a great cliche but it's a cliche
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for a reason because it's been around for so
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long and it's right is seek first to understand
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before being understood and i think the mistake
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people do is they ignore that it's all about
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well let me tell you why you're wrong In fact,
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I'm not even going to let you finish saying what
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you're going to say. And I'm going to jump in
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there and I'm just going to shut you down. And
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I'm going to name blame or shame because that
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makes me feel good. Even though at the time what's
00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:33.629
actually happened is you're allowing that cortisol
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and adrenaline, the amygdala part of the brain
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to be in the driving seat. That's great. If the
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saber tooth tigers jumped out of the bush and
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is about to attack you. But it's not good if
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you're dealing with a student or a parent or
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some other stakeholder or even with your kids.
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And I've got four teenagers, so I've had plenty
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of practice with this. And so, TJ, really, it's
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understanding or having a mindset rather than
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a checklist that seek first to understand before
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being understood. And above all. bring curiosity
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in fact bring more curiosity than assumption
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because assumptions are like earplugs they just
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get in the way they enable our biases and our
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prejudices to get in the way whereas if we can
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bring more curiosity it just uncovers a whole
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load of data emotion information that can then
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enable us to um to kind of help the situation
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right to help the conversation and ultimately
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all of what i did as a negotiator and what i
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teach now it's ultimately about how to have better
00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:57.299
conversations you know yeah it can sound super
00:15:57.299 --> 00:15:59.659
sexy going in and negotiating with kidnappers
00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:01.440
and dropping money out of helicopters and all
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.820
that stuff but in every aspect of life it's about
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.179
let's just try and have better conversations
00:16:08.179 --> 00:16:13.019
um and so that's yeah that's probably a fair
00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:17.519
bit to say on that scott you talked about one
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.820
of the biggest mistakes that we make about like
00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:23.659
making it about us and it's just so easy to do
00:16:23.659 --> 00:16:28.720
you know just i think we all you know just find
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.500
ourselves in that space when we're hurt or we
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:36.159
get really afraid or nervous and so on I do want
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:40.360
to ask you, is there a myth? Like, is there a
00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.720
myth around negotiation that impedes people from
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.980
being effective or more effective? I know there's
00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:51.139
these mistakes we make and the name blame shame
00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:53.679
that that should be right off the off everybody's
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.679
tongue for now on. And I love the idea about
00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.240
being curious. I heard one time a dear friend
00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.549
say to me, Joe. Don't be furious. Just get curious.
00:17:02.870 --> 00:17:06.329
And it was sound advice. I really like it. And
00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:08.630
I needed it. I need those punchy little things
00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:11.670
to remember. But I would wonder if there's a
00:17:11.670 --> 00:17:15.309
myth around negotiation that decreases our ability
00:17:15.309 --> 00:17:19.670
to be more effective. Well, this is the million
00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:24.150
dollar question, right? I think I still come
00:17:24.150 --> 00:17:28.900
up against it where people think. negotiation
00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:33.180
is about winning okay the subtitle of my book
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:36.460
is how to win any negotiation however and i could
00:17:36.460 --> 00:17:39.259
define what winning means uh afterwards separately
00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:44.039
i'll explain that now really briefly that winning
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.339
it in from my point of view here is can i look
00:17:47.339 --> 00:17:50.059
in the mirror at the end of each day and go actually
00:17:50.059 --> 00:17:52.000
i gave my best i approached it with the right
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.180
mindset the right intention i did the best i
00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:57.609
could that's what winning is in that respect
00:17:57.609 --> 00:18:01.130
but other people and there's this misconception
00:18:01.130 --> 00:18:04.009
and myth that someone has to win and someone
00:18:04.009 --> 00:18:08.410
has to lose whereas what you want to aim for
00:18:08.410 --> 00:18:12.250
is that long term cooperation and collaboration
00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:15.670
rather than trying to get a bigger slice of the
00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:18.869
fixed size pie hey let's just work together to
00:18:18.869 --> 00:18:22.210
expand the size of the pie itself so we can all
00:18:22.210 --> 00:18:27.730
get bigger slices um and people another myth
00:18:27.730 --> 00:18:32.390
is well it's it's wrong to um not show weakness
00:18:32.390 --> 00:18:34.609
but it's wrong to kind of show too much of your
00:18:34.609 --> 00:18:38.970
hand whereas actually if i can if i can bring
00:18:38.970 --> 00:18:42.970
empathy to a to a negotiation to a conversation
00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:45.430
and all empathy is it's not sympathy i'm not
00:18:45.430 --> 00:18:47.730
taking on the feelings or problems of the other
00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:52.109
person i'm just taking the time to demonstrate
00:18:52.109 --> 00:18:56.529
my understanding where the other side where the
00:18:56.529 --> 00:18:59.829
counterpart where the other person is at and
00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:03.029
this is particularly powerful if we disagree
00:19:03.029 --> 00:19:08.049
if we disagree on something Joan and I go okay
00:19:08.049 --> 00:19:11.609
well it seems like this deal this issue this
00:19:11.609 --> 00:19:14.130
report whatever is really important to you and
00:19:14.130 --> 00:19:18.190
you feel like actually I'm not putting my weight
00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:21.640
here I'm not doing what's expected of me Even
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.140
though I think you're completely wrong, it doesn't
00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:27.759
matter. By me taking the time to share that and
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:31.400
actually putting myself in your position, trying
00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:35.759
to get inside your head, how do you see, playing
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:39.099
devil's advocate here, how do you see me and
00:19:39.099 --> 00:19:43.819
my position? And the myth is, well, we've got
00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:45.859
to kind of keep those cards close to our chest.
00:19:45.980 --> 00:19:49.079
But actually, I want, they're an elephant sat
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.960
in the corner of the room. I'm not going to put
00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.940
things in your head that aren't already there,
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.940
even if it's subconsciously. So I need to drag
00:19:57.940 --> 00:20:02.880
out, present to you all of those things that
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:05.740
you potentially might think that are going against
00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:08.279
me. Does that make sense? And by doing that,
00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:12.299
if I can get them out there first before you
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:16.650
do. It diffuses the tension. It takes the wind
00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:18.509
out of your sails or out of the arguments that
00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:22.170
you're going to present. And you think, oh, actually,
00:20:22.210 --> 00:20:25.470
yeah, Scott gets me. He understands my position.
00:20:25.930 --> 00:20:28.029
But here's a crucial thing for everyone to take
00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:30.609
away on that point is you don't have to agree
00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:33.049
with it. And you're not saying you agree with
00:20:33.049 --> 00:20:36.569
it. You're just presenting it. It sounds like
00:20:36.569 --> 00:20:39.690
or it seems like that you feel or you seem or
00:20:39.690 --> 00:20:44.500
think this. And so that's the. That's some of
00:20:44.500 --> 00:20:48.200
the myths and ways to overcome them in my experience.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.819
I like that you brought up winning because I
00:20:52.819 --> 00:20:56.420
think in the communication, in the negotiation,
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.839
whether it's an IEP meeting that we're in or
00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.279
a heated parent argument, you know, I'm thinking
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.490
about school leaders. I think a lot of times
00:21:06.490 --> 00:21:09.730
we're trying to get our way or position it so
00:21:09.730 --> 00:21:12.710
that the school wins or the leader wins. I'm
00:21:12.710 --> 00:21:15.829
also thinking about the visibility of a leader
00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:20.150
when there's tension in the room and kind of
00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:25.170
like the desire to ensure that you're still in
00:21:25.170 --> 00:21:29.759
the upper have the upper hand in the argument.
00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:32.680
And I couldn't help but to think about humility
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:37.740
when you were presenting that scenario. Can you
00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:41.259
comment on that for leaders so that they can
00:21:41.259 --> 00:21:45.099
play that long game versus trying to win in the
00:21:45.099 --> 00:21:50.420
moment? Because I think there's a mentality there
00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:53.819
around what winning actually means when the tensions
00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:57.369
are high. yes a really good point particularly
00:21:57.369 --> 00:22:00.509
if you hold a position of authority you've got
00:22:00.509 --> 00:22:03.029
the role or the rank or the title and people
00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:07.329
are looking to you and you know because you know
00:22:07.329 --> 00:22:08.970
let's just let's just deal with that right away
00:22:08.970 --> 00:22:11.650
is that we don't negotiate money we don't negotiate
00:22:11.650 --> 00:22:17.720
timelines we negotiate identity and status On
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:19.359
that point, and particularly if you're in a position
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.599
of authority, there will be an identity that
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.460
is attached to that. How you and others see you
00:22:24.460 --> 00:22:27.619
and perceive you in the world. And whenever that
00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:30.859
is threatened, that could be by somebody trying
00:22:30.859 --> 00:22:34.640
to usurp your authority, answer back, be belligerent,
00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:39.920
whoever that may be. As a human being at your
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.299
very core, even if it is subconscious, that is
00:22:43.299 --> 00:22:45.500
an attack on your very fiber of who you are in
00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:50.359
this world. and and we only ever say yes and
00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:53.779
agree to something can mean it long term if it
00:22:53.779 --> 00:22:57.619
will increase or at least maintain our status
00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:00.779
as how we and others see us or perceive us to
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:04.259
be so the first thing is from our own perspective
00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:07.279
we need to be able to manage our own state our
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.779
own emotions first which is why the number one
00:23:10.779 --> 00:23:13.680
skill of all the world's best negotiators is
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.319
emotional self -regulation Can you stay grounded?
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:20.819
Can you tap into your red center? Can you feel
00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:25.079
your feet flat on the floor, staying on the riverbank
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:28.099
rather than going for a swim? Can you actually
00:23:28.099 --> 00:23:33.799
develop sensory acuity of what is going on in
00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:36.059
the room, in the meeting, on the call, in the
00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:39.640
session, in the classroom, wherever it is? Can
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:44.819
you adapt your own or regulate your own nervous
00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:48.160
system and be aware of how you're coming across
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.579
is it landing and at the same time tune in and
00:23:52.579 --> 00:23:55.680
try and validate and empathize with a person
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.579
who's actually just trying to shout at you and
00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:00.380
so there's lots of things to consider there but
00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:02.720
most of us are going to be doing this anyway
00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:06.549
The point of me raising it is that we just need
00:24:06.549 --> 00:24:09.630
to be conscious of it and develop it and practice
00:24:09.630 --> 00:24:12.690
it and refine it. So it becomes in the moment,
00:24:12.829 --> 00:24:15.349
you almost, it sounds a bit weird, but we almost
00:24:15.349 --> 00:24:17.509
have like an out of bodily experience. You become
00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:19.930
aware of what you're doing as opposed to being
00:24:19.930 --> 00:24:22.789
in it. Does that make sense? And so, which is
00:24:22.789 --> 00:24:25.670
why I use a riverbank analogy. You know, you've
00:24:25.670 --> 00:24:28.990
cracked it when you can go, hey, this person
00:24:28.990 --> 00:24:32.740
could say or do anything right now. And if you
00:24:32.740 --> 00:24:34.579
measure my heartbeat, it's going to stay the
00:24:34.579 --> 00:24:38.420
same because you manage to take that slight step
00:24:38.420 --> 00:24:41.440
back and you just find yourself in a split second
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.779
so you can observe but not absorb. And then you
00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:49.079
can choose how you're going to respond rather
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:51.180
than react. And there's a difference that you
00:24:51.180 --> 00:24:54.119
want to respond deliberately with intention rather
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:57.339
than react emotionally. And please, it's simple
00:24:57.339 --> 00:25:01.109
but not easy. I get that it takes. Tons of practice.
00:25:01.269 --> 00:25:04.509
However, life gives us plenty of opportunity
00:25:04.509 --> 00:25:07.789
to practice every single day on the easy stuff.
00:25:08.049 --> 00:25:10.710
So when that big moment does come, when that
00:25:10.710 --> 00:25:14.990
real challenging conversation happens, the neural
00:25:14.990 --> 00:25:17.549
pathways have been created, the neuroplasticity
00:25:17.549 --> 00:25:21.849
has taken place. And we're a bit stronger to
00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:26.069
have those difficult conversations without allowing
00:25:26.069 --> 00:25:31.460
ourselves to be dysregulated. Scott, I appreciate
00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:37.440
you saying that this takes time. I still, even
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.420
as a superintendent of seven years and an educator
00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:43.900
for 30, most of it being in some type of leadership
00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:47.339
position, at least 27 years within, there are
00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:50.200
times where there's sweaty palms, heart races.
00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:55.400
And, you know, so this is a skill to truly develop.
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:58.380
And I appreciate you saying too, that life is
00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:03.430
our lab. Like start using this tomorrow. But
00:26:03.430 --> 00:26:06.190
with that, I do want to ask you, there are individuals
00:26:06.190 --> 00:26:09.549
that are on this call right now, listening to
00:26:09.549 --> 00:26:11.809
this podcast, they probably have a tough meeting
00:26:11.809 --> 00:26:15.430
tomorrow. What is one of the most underrated
00:26:15.430 --> 00:26:21.609
negotiation skills? Most people, here's another
00:26:21.609 --> 00:26:25.190
myth for you. Most people think the best negotiators
00:26:25.190 --> 00:26:29.140
are the best talkers. but they're not. They're
00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:33.920
the best listeners. And if there's one tool,
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.380
technique, hack, I would encourage anybody who's
00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:42.099
listening or watching this is to develop what
00:26:42.099 --> 00:26:47.099
I call level five listening. Because all of us,
00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:50.319
myself included, often think we're better listeners
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:53.920
than what we actually are. And you've got levels
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.079
one and two. Which you're just listening for
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:01.039
the gist or you're just listening, waiting to
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.460
rebut them around actually where they're wrong
00:27:04.460 --> 00:27:06.279
and you're right. And you maybe don't even let
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.180
them finish. You talk over them or you're just,
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:10.259
you're listening, you're in a meeting, but you're
00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:12.079
thinking about the Amazon delivery or what's
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:15.019
for lunch and all that kind of stuff. Excuse
00:27:15.019 --> 00:27:17.559
me, but we want to get down to those levels four,
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.799
level five. Because levels one, two and three,
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.000
it's all, we're focusing on ourselves. So what
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.119
about me, myself and I again, we want to tap
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.579
into level four is emotion. You know, we want
00:27:32.579 --> 00:27:36.980
to listen to what's driving this person. What's
00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:41.059
the real emotion? What's the emotion behind this?
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:44.220
Because if we can identify what that is, we can
00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:46.380
kind of name it. Because if we ever say name
00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:49.559
it to tame it, particularly if the person's dysregulated
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:53.220
in a difficult conversation. If you can kind
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:55.339
of understand, okay, well, they're saying this,
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.160
but why are they saying it? So it's not so much
00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:01.000
the what, it's the why underneath. And then level
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.519
five is going even deeper, and that's listening
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.680
for point of view. Listening for point of view,
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:10.900
beliefs, rules, values. How does this person
00:28:10.900 --> 00:28:13.500
interpret the world? You may be thinking, well,
00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:16.440
blimey, Scott, that's quite a lot to take on.
00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:19.720
And listening at this level. you're not going
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:21.480
to do it when you have a conversation about what's
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:24.220
for dinner but in those difficult conversations
00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:26.900
in the workplace or the home that's when you're
00:28:26.900 --> 00:28:30.720
going to tap into that level four and five and
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:35.480
if you listen where you seek first to understand
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:37.680
before being understood realize it's not about
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.380
you you'll get your chance in a bit you need
00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:43.299
to demonstrate the empathy but if you can listen
00:28:43.299 --> 00:28:46.220
to that point of view and emotion people will
00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:50.750
tell you their pain points their issues their
00:28:50.750 --> 00:28:54.349
challenges what is really not the surface presenting
00:28:54.349 --> 00:28:57.569
issue but what's the real issue and they'll give
00:28:57.569 --> 00:29:01.289
you or they'll indicate what is a bridge a way
00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:04.069
out from them from where they are to a better
00:29:04.069 --> 00:29:07.430
place but if you're going in there with a win
00:29:07.430 --> 00:29:12.670
-lose problem solving uh too soon it's all about
00:29:12.670 --> 00:29:16.890
me you're gonna miss that And it's a skill that
00:29:16.890 --> 00:29:19.950
all of us, all 8 billion of us can do better
00:29:19.950 --> 00:29:21.869
at practicing because correct me if I'm wrong,
00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:25.410
no one's listened their way out of a job or listened
00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:28.490
their way out of a relationship before. And so
00:29:28.490 --> 00:29:32.849
that's the key thing. People should really take
00:29:32.849 --> 00:29:34.789
away from this and practice it for their meetings
00:29:34.789 --> 00:29:38.769
today and every other day. Listening, level five
00:29:38.769 --> 00:29:44.220
listening. seeking first to understand it seems
00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:46.640
like like you said it before it seems simple
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:50.299
but it's it's so hard to do and i think one of
00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:53.799
the reasons for that is that and i'm talking
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:55.700
to the leaders who are listening right now we
00:29:55.700 --> 00:29:59.539
tend to plan plan plan plan plan plan the meeting
00:29:59.539 --> 00:30:02.599
plan the day and one of the things that you suggest
00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:05.359
is that clarity of purpose is more important
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:09.750
than clarity of planning can you can you double
00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:11.569
click on that and tell us what you mean by it
00:30:11.569 --> 00:30:17.470
yeah i mean hey under pressure you rise or fall
00:30:17.470 --> 00:30:19.309
to the level of your preparation and training
00:30:19.309 --> 00:30:22.569
so don't get me wrong preparing is key i'm a
00:30:22.569 --> 00:30:25.970
big planner i like my processes and i know what
00:30:25.970 --> 00:30:30.730
my outcome is going to be um but i i think we
00:30:30.730 --> 00:30:36.009
can prepare too much at times we can plan too
00:30:36.009 --> 00:30:40.680
much because if if If I would go previously go
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:45.140
to negotiation, then all my preparation and all
00:30:45.140 --> 00:30:47.740
my planning, and I think I've cracked it. I kind
00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:50.259
of know what the problem is to be solved here.
00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:53.960
I know all about this person that I need to influence
00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:55.839
and persuade. What's that going to do? Is that
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:57.579
going to make me, is that going to encourage
00:30:57.579 --> 00:31:01.339
me to listen more, bring more curiosity? Or actually,
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:03.180
is it going to make me just make a load of assumptions
00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:07.569
and listen less? And so we need to get the Goldilocks,
00:31:07.670 --> 00:31:11.089
the sweet spot of preparation where we do just
00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:14.069
enough to know what are the better questions
00:31:14.069 --> 00:31:19.329
to ask, when to speak, when to listen. And that
00:31:19.329 --> 00:31:22.750
doesn't matter. It's the same principle, no matter
00:31:22.750 --> 00:31:24.910
what the situation or circumstances or conversation
00:31:24.910 --> 00:31:31.450
you're going to have, really. Well, Scott, this
00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:34.259
has been. A fantastic conversation. Joe, did
00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:35.839
you have one more question you wanted to ask?
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.000
I mean, I have 10 more questions. I was going
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.740
to say, we're going to have to do a round two
00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:44.059
because I've wanted to jump in 30 different times.
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:46.680
The only thing I'll ask, and we can wrap up with
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:49.319
this, and this is a fan favorite because Scott,
00:31:49.420 --> 00:31:53.559
you know, obviously we didn't even get into like
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:57.559
what you've experienced a lot of like. the negotiations,
00:31:57.579 --> 00:32:00.900
the intensity, like, which is fascinating. And
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:03.420
when TJ and I were prepping for this, we said,
00:32:03.460 --> 00:32:06.539
let's keep this very skill oriented and transferable.
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:09.900
And so we tried to land on that tonight. I am
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:14.420
very curious though, is there a daily habit that
00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:16.880
you do? And this is something that I feel like
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:20.240
our listeners love to hear that keeps you sharp,
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.319
helps you grow. Something that you know, you
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:27.000
have religiously put a... has been a big part
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.539
of your life to grow. Yeah. People want to write
00:32:31.539 --> 00:32:36.640
down three letters, P R C. And the first one
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:43.059
is pause. Second one is reflect and the C's choose.
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:45.740
And what I mean by pause, reflect and choose
00:32:45.740 --> 00:32:50.619
is maybe three times a day, depending on what
00:32:50.619 --> 00:32:52.259
I've got going on. Maybe it's five times a day.
00:32:52.299 --> 00:32:54.960
Maybe it's just once a day. but i will set an
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:59.000
alarm on my phone and i'll just pause when that
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.799
goes off and i'll just sit there for 30 seconds
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:08.220
no more maybe 20 seconds and i'll just reflect
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:10.220
but it's more than reflecting it's just kind
00:33:10.220 --> 00:33:14.220
of tuning into okay what's going on for me right
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:18.019
now i'll put my feet flat on the floor so i can
00:33:18.019 --> 00:33:20.420
kind of be grounded take a couple of deep breaths
00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:24.880
and i go do you know what When I'm about to go
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:26.940
into a call with this person, every time I'm
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:29.660
about to go on a call with this person, I get
00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:32.619
that kind of tension in my shoulders. Why is
00:33:32.619 --> 00:33:34.859
that? Why do I feel that? And maybe you get a
00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:36.759
bit curious and you ask questions why that is.
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.940
So I pause. I'll just stop and reflect and just
00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:44.200
tune in for maybe 30 seconds. And then from that
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.519
point, I'll then choose my next steps, my next
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.240
action from that ground in place. And what that
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:53.599
does is, it's a bit like when you plug your mobile
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:56.539
phone in, you plug your cell phone in. It's just
00:33:56.539 --> 00:33:58.880
doing that several times a day to get like a
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.140
little boost. It just takes you back. Imagine
00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:05.279
a hamster on a wheel. It's like the hamster being
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.880
taken off the wheel. You can catch a little breath.
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.760
You can kind of get a bit of clarity on where
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:15.179
you're at and what's coming. And then you can
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:16.699
make a better decision you can carry on with
00:34:16.699 --> 00:34:19.460
your day. But that's it. It's a trainable skill.
00:34:20.269 --> 00:34:23.349
It's muscle memory. And the more you can do that,
00:34:23.449 --> 00:34:27.429
particularly when the stakes are low and everything's
00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:31.150
easy, the easy becomes when you're certainly
00:34:31.150 --> 00:34:34.349
facing a challenge. So PRC, pause, reflect and
00:34:34.349 --> 00:34:38.389
choose. PRC, it's great strategy. I like the
00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:40.289
hamster on the wheel part of that too, because
00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:43.469
I think sometimes when we feel like a hamster
00:34:43.469 --> 00:34:46.250
on a wheel, when we feel that feeling is the
00:34:46.250 --> 00:34:48.650
exact moment when we need to start to practice
00:34:48.650 --> 00:34:52.349
that. And especially when it's just about the
00:34:52.349 --> 00:34:54.849
day and the urgency of the day and nothing that's
00:34:54.849 --> 00:34:57.630
actually super important, but just the speed
00:34:57.630 --> 00:35:00.289
of the way things are going to then use that
00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:02.869
strategy. And if I just add one thing, TJ, sorry,
00:35:02.949 --> 00:35:04.909
just if I add one thing to that, sorry to speak
00:35:04.909 --> 00:35:08.250
over you there. is you know i'm sure everybody
00:35:08.250 --> 00:35:10.550
listened to this they have back -to -back meetings
00:35:10.550 --> 00:35:15.130
calls or in person and the thing that really
00:35:15.130 --> 00:35:17.750
made a difference for me when i left the negotiation
00:35:17.750 --> 00:35:22.309
world went into business as well was when i finished
00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:25.550
one call or meeting i literally do that like
00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:29.110
a version of the prc where i will mindfully transition
00:35:29.110 --> 00:35:32.900
transfer from the one call or meeting to the
00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:36.960
next, rather than being almost on autopilot and
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:38.880
going from one to the other, where your brain
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:42.159
doesn't have the chance to just pause for a second.
00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:46.079
And it doesn't matter how busy you are. You could
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.679
be the busiest person in education. You'll have
00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:52.679
10 seconds. You'll have five seconds. But that's
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:54.340
what we want. We had a saying in the negotiation
00:35:54.340 --> 00:35:57.519
world, we just want to buy time. Because the
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:59.860
more time we can buy in, if it's just one second.
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:03.380
allows us to get ahead of the business of life
00:36:03.380 --> 00:36:06.320
and then we turn it more regulated then we can
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:09.820
make better decisions from that place and hey
00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:12.840
surely that's better for everybody right that's
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:16.099
so good and such a fantastic strategy for leaders
00:36:16.099 --> 00:36:19.789
and i've got Tons of notes and at least 10 more
00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:22.730
questions to ask, but we're going to close it
00:36:22.730 --> 00:36:26.489
out there. It's been great, Scott. Is there anything
00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:28.949
that you would like to add today for the listeners?
00:36:28.969 --> 00:36:31.489
Anything we didn't ask, a call to action, final
00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:36.610
words? Seek out the worthy opponents. And what
00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:39.050
I mean by that, as people, you know the people,
00:36:39.150 --> 00:36:41.530
we've all got them in our lives where we'd rather
00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:44.309
avoid them. They know which buttons to press.
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.599
Yeah, just turn it with a good intention and
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.599
really work hard at, you know, kind of practicing
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:56.280
this stuff. Learn to listen level five, more
00:36:56.280 --> 00:37:01.420
curiosity, and watch the magic happen. Yeah,
00:37:01.539 --> 00:37:04.679
seek out the worthy opponents. Yep, that's how
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:08.179
we practice. Thank you so much. You heard it
00:37:08.179 --> 00:37:11.539
again on Focus Ed. Scott Walker, everyone, how
00:37:11.539 --> 00:37:13.699
about a virtual and live round of applause from
00:37:13.699 --> 00:37:17.579
our audience? Don't forget to follow theschoolhouse302
00:37:17.579 --> 00:37:20.340
.com for podcasts, blog posts, books to read,
00:37:20.380 --> 00:37:23.179
and more. We'll be back soon with another episode
00:37:23.179 --> 00:37:26.599
of Focus Ed. Until then, stay focused. Thank
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:31.360
you, Scott. Thanks so much for your time. TJ,
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.300
one thing we've seen again and again is that
00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:36.739
great instructional leadership doesn't happen
00:37:36.739 --> 00:37:40.079
by accident. It's built on consistent, aligned
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:44.079
coaching practices. That's right, Joe. And when
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:46.039
I was a deputy superintendent, I knew we needed
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:48.500
a way to scale high -quality coaching without
00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:50.840
losing that personal, real -time element that
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:53.780
makes it so effective. So that's when you brought
00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:57.789
in Bullseye? 100%. Bullseye gave us the visibility
00:37:57.789 --> 00:38:00.190
that we were missing. I could see the actual
00:38:00.190 --> 00:38:02.369
feedback that principals were giving to teachers
00:38:02.369 --> 00:38:04.969
and use it to support their growth as instructional
00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:07.989
leaders. It made coaching the coaches part of
00:38:07.989 --> 00:38:10.289
our daily leadership work, not something extra.
00:38:11.170 --> 00:38:15.030
And Bullseye wasn't some off -the -shelf product
00:38:15.030 --> 00:38:18.190
that boxed you into something else's model? No
00:38:18.190 --> 00:38:21.550
way, dude. You know I don't go for that. Bullseye
00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:24.289
is flexible. They worked alongside us to customize
00:38:24.289 --> 00:38:27.030
a platform around our leadership framework. And
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as our goals evolved, Bullseye evolved with us.
00:38:29.989 --> 00:38:33.329
We never had to fit into their system. The Bullseye
00:38:33.329 --> 00:38:37.769
system fit into ours. Wow, that's powerful. A
00:38:37.769 --> 00:38:40.230
platform that actually grows with you and supports
00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:43.980
the way you lead. customization like you can't
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:46.659
believe and that's why we're proud at the schoolhouse
00:38:46.659 --> 00:38:49.659
302 to partner with bullseye if you're looking
00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:52.559
to bring clarity to your coaching and turn feedback
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.340
into real growth bullseye is the right tool for
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you you can head to bullseye .education slash
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