WEBVTT
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00:00:01.679All right, hey everyone.
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00:00:04.320I'm here with Nicholas Freer, who I think a lot of you know.
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00:00:16.239Um he's uh I think president at Finnish Media Corps and um uh works with if you don't know him, you know you either know him, you know, Morgan Busby, you know, Nate Pucci, who spoke at FMS this year.
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00:00:19.359Um you guys have been around for quite a while.
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00:00:31.679Um and uh one of the better publishing groups for sure out there in terms of size, like one of the fastest growing um, I would say in the last several years, um publishers out there.
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00:00:33.840And so thanks for being here, Nicholas.
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00:00:35.439Thank you, John.
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00:00:36.880Yeah, glad to be here.
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00:00:50.479And today we're gonna do we're gonna go in kind of a little bit of a different direction, I think, because um well first we're we're gonna get we're gonna dive into kind of the as you put it um before this call, kind of building the business for the long term.
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00:00:53.920And so getting into a little bit more the operational kind of side of this.
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00:01:01.679Um but before we do that, um I'd love to get your take on kind of, you know, we're recording this as you know, middle of March 2026.
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00:01:15.120Um kind of the you guys over the last year, two years have have made a very large shift in the the way that some of your businesses are run in terms of going more to that live model that Nate presented at FMS.
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00:01:20.000Um how are you kind of looking at the industry right now in terms of just like the broad macro view?
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00:01:26.159Like what are you seeing and and how would you kind of put where we are right now in context of the last several years?
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00:01:27.280Yes.
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00:01:35.519Well, you know, I do think, uh, and I think Nate mentioned exactly that uh when you gave us a presentation at uh your wonderful event in uh beginning of the year.
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00:01:42.959Um this the whole idea of make it make sense, I think is something that will continue to matter more and more for customers, right?
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00:01:45.760Where um our customer base is maturing.
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00:01:55.760When we have to um not only age-wise, they they do that also, but new customers are growing in, but they're maturing in the way they consume our content and and and everything that we put out there, right?
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00:01:58.159And we have to take that very seriously, right?
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00:02:07.519Um, so make it make sense to get a customer on board in a in a way that we've probably neglected for a decade or two uh before, a little bit, right?
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00:02:10.960Where the messagings toward the customers did not make a lot of sense.
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00:02:14.000We all have to be very true, like true to ourselves, right?
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00:02:18.159If you look at our inboxes, we say, okay, let's send more email, it's always going to be better.
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00:02:23.840Um But um that has turned out to not be as true anymore, at least for us, right?
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00:02:38.400And and that's why we made this colossal shift towards a more model is based around, well, ideally every message that goes out there should make sense that it should lead into something that customers consume that is feeding into that messaging ideally, right?
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00:02:48.080We've probably always said that we want to do something like that, um, link everything together, kind of like the red thread to all sorts of communication, but we haven't done that, right?
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00:02:53.919And um so our initiative here uh is really feeding into that.
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00:03:08.159And um that from every point, the moment we acquire a lead, um, the moment we start talking to that lead and then put them into the live shows that Nate has talked about, and we now kind of do eight of eight of them every day, almost like linear television, like back in the day, right?
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00:03:14.159And we have people who get on to those shows without even that we even need to talk to them anymore, right?
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00:03:15.759Uh so it's great.
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00:03:19.280It's almost like, you know, just back in the day at 8 p.m., this show is on TV.
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00:03:20.080People show up for it.
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00:03:23.199And that's because that's what we want, because they want to be there, right?
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00:03:24.080Right, right.
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00:03:25.199That's standing attention.
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00:03:26.000Can I back up a little bit?
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00:03:33.199So, what do you mean when you say um the messaging from the time that the the you acquire the lead um wasn't always making sense?
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00:03:36.560Like when you say it didn't make sense, like what are you referring to?
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00:03:37.439Yes.
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00:03:55.919I mean, um we all know, you know, uh um that that one of the most effective things uh uh that you know we've done in the past is the moment we acquire a lead, sure, there's some sort of like welcome funnel uh that should ideally put them on a list and then talk to them, this is this is what this list is about, and this is what you're gonna be hearing from.
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00:03:57.360All that happens still, right?
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00:04:00.560And I think probably most publishers do like pretty good job at that.
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00:04:04.159But at the same time, the monetization machine is running, right?
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00:04:07.120So there's a bunch of offers left running left and right.
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00:04:11.039And so suddenly this lead is on five different hot lists, right?
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00:04:12.240Just because they're interested.
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00:04:14.560And now the messaging gets crazy, right?
00:04:14.879 -->
00:04:23.519And um uh the more sophisticated the business is, if you have a very simple business that you only sell two products or something like that, you're a smaller publisher, you can control it, right?
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00:04:25.120And it and I think it's very doable.
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00:04:30.000But as soon as you grow, right, as we are right now, we have 200 products, right?
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00:04:38.560So um, and we have so many campaigns running at the same time, and I think all bigger publishers have that same situation, then you run into issues.
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00:04:42.240It'll be, we could call it cross-pollination, which is a great thing.
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00:04:50.560Um, and it probably leads into you know great sales, but at some point you see dimension returns because especially new to far customers who don't know us, they just don't get it.
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00:04:52.399They don't understand what's going on.
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00:04:55.680And their in bus their inbox gets flooded by all of that.
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00:05:02.800And no matter how good and clean your email segmentation and everything is you do, uh, there'll be problems.
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00:05:05.040And uh that's how you use customers.
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00:05:08.560And that's we what we really wanted to stop, especially with new to far people.
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00:05:09.759Right, that makes sense.
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00:05:16.240And because even if you're, like you said, the most controlled you are um at scale, you have more so you have I think I feel like there's a couple problems here.
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00:05:22.480One, you have the, like you said, the like we just happen to have these five promos that are working right now, and we're and this was our marketing calendar.
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00:05:30.160We're gonna mail them out to you know the database based on where that where our marketing team sees that's them in the segment, right?
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00:05:36.800They're new to file, they're active 30 or 60 or 90 day clickers, whatever they are, they're gonna get this list or this promotion.
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00:05:49.360But then you also have the other problem that that person has subscribed to other things that are being delivered in similar format, and they're getting emails from everybody about everybody's promo.
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00:05:55.920And since it's all coming in one inbox and it can all kind of start to it's very easy for it to jumble together.
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00:06:08.639And we, you know, it's a constant problem for for decades of people who are like trying to unsubscribe from a product that is from a different publisher than the person they reached out to because they get confused about who like this email.
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00:06:12.000I'm not sure who this product that I bought is from anymore.
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00:06:16.959Um and so like that that issue of confusion is definitely a persistent one.
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00:06:30.000And so then what so you're saying that the live shows, and I think Nate called it like going from trying to get attention to owning attention or having standing attention, like you just described, where you have um it's a TV show that people show up for.
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00:06:35.199Um is that the is that the primary solution then for you guys?
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00:06:42.240Yeah, I mean the the format itself uh helps us to really isolate the what we can deliver to to customers, right?
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00:06:44.319And like we get them really excited about that.
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00:06:47.360But messaging has to be isolated as well for that, right?
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00:06:52.800Whether it's you know through a telegram channel, whether it's through Discord, whether it's through SMS or email, right?
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00:06:56.480The messaging for that channel is really consistent with it, right?
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00:07:02.800Um that you know say you have an SMS list that pushes um people or try tries to push people into one of your live shows.
00:07:02.879 -->
00:07:06.560It probably gives the typical, hey, it's starting now, join, right?
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00:07:12.480Um, but at the same time, it needs to provide them with content that feeds into whatever that live show provides.
00:07:12.560 -->
00:07:16.879Let's say we have a show in the morning that gives people an opening trade for the day.
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00:07:19.680Um that's what they expect, that's what they want.
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00:07:22.399So the messaging around that will also be that.
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00:07:27.680And if you look at a ratio of promotional to um uh to content, right?
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00:07:31.839Um, and I think there's been magic numbers of what that should be, right?
00:07:31.920 -->
00:07:33.360Um they change every year.
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00:07:36.160And if you ask two different people, they tell you two different numbers.
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00:07:43.360Um but we really try to stick with like, you know, one starting now versus and one piece of content, right?
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00:07:44.639So it'd be like 50-50.
00:07:44.720 -->
00:07:47.360And that starting now is not really promotional in that sense.
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00:07:48.879It's not even buy this, right?
00:07:48.959 -->
00:07:50.959It's more, hey, show starts now.
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00:07:56.800Yes, there will be something sold on the show afterwards, but that's not the main purpose of the messaging, right?
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00:07:57.920And people like that.
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00:08:05.360People really like the you know, the rates of people like unsubscribing from these kind of lists are extremely low in comparison, right?
00:08:05.759 -->
00:08:07.439And um and very healthy, right?
00:08:07.519 -->
00:08:11.040And I I recommend you know just trying to do that like on the side, right?
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00:08:13.519If you if you don't believe it, it's working, sure, right?
00:08:13.600 -->
00:08:16.160But try it on the side, try to do an isolated list.
00:08:16.319 -->
00:08:21.360You can do email, you can do SMS, whatever you want to do, and just see what happens, you know.
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00:08:42.320And um, we've been like the health of those lists, um, and the way like this this this channel to keep on communicating with a customer, not losing them, has become extremely valuable for us and gave us this you know continuity in a business that especially in trading, because we're you know we're trading French publisher, um, that we didn't have that.
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00:08:46.320You know, we went through those big cyclical launch cycles all the time.
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00:08:48.000We're hurting at times.
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00:08:49.519And everybody knows this, right?
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00:08:55.600Uh, everybody here who uh in that community who has a business like that is you know, we're the launch cycle's bad.
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00:08:57.840You're it's difficult, right?
00:08:58.240 -->
00:09:01.519And um uh that has not been the case with our shows, right?
00:09:01.679 -->
00:09:07.360Of course, they also run through a cycle, but it's much more flat and it's much more controllable, I feel like.
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00:09:09.279So revenue is more predictable.
00:09:09.440 -->
00:09:14.960So now I, you know, as a decision maker in the business, can be more bold in my investment decisions.
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00:09:24.879So I can buy more leads because I know, okay, well, you can be confident that even if the launch cycle is not that great, um, we'll have this kind of this base revenue coming in.
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00:09:28.639And that has been what made me sleep much better for the last six months, to be honest.
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00:09:45.679Uh yeah, no, that that was I think that was one of the most like to me like shocking things when when I was seeing those numbers is that uh you know you're talking about a very stable daily revenue, um, which is not it has never been normal, right?
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00:09:51.200We've always been even before we were in hot list, it's very much dependent on you know whatever the promotion is.
00:09:51.279 -->
00:09:56.799And so um that that that piece right there is is I think very exciting to a lot of people.
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00:10:12.320And for people who maybe embarrassingly didn't come to FMS and maybe where they were there and they forgot um the uh uh the promotional model then somebody comes onto the show, so they're getting these very light touches.
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00:10:18.720Um basically come we're starting now, and it's not like hey, here's this big lead up to a pitch.
00:10:18.879 -->
00:10:20.399Um they're getting a content show.
00:10:20.480 -->
00:10:25.600How is the how is how are the offers then pushed out to get that kind of consistent revenue?
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00:10:26.480Yes.
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00:10:32.879Um again, making making it make sense is um uh is the key here for me, right?
00:10:32.960 -->
00:10:37.279Because there's a couple of options how you can pitch somebody towards the end of that uh that show model.
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00:10:40.399It's always content first, and then it feeds into the pitch part.
00:10:40.960 -->
00:10:42.559Um that could be a couple of things.
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00:10:47.440Um we don't always have the capacity, but eight shows a day, seven days a week, right?
00:10:47.519 -->
00:10:51.840So you can't always have like a big spectacle uh on every of these shows, right?
00:10:52.000 -->
00:10:53.919So we do stream offers, right?
00:10:54.000 -->
00:10:58.080We do stream recordings of uh um of successful offers that we have.
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00:11:00.000Kind of like the good old Evergreen, right?
00:11:00.159 -->
00:11:02.080Uh that you uh that you kept on sending.
00:11:02.159 -->
00:11:03.919But we integrate that into the show.
00:11:04.000 -->
00:11:10.799So the show host talked about, you know, something, let's say some sort of chart pattern, uh, something interesting they've discovered in the market.
00:11:10.960 -->
00:11:12.879And now they say, and you know what?
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00:11:16.720Um we actually have this wonderful offer uh from Lance Polito.
00:11:16.799 -->
00:11:21.679He's actually using exactly something similar to that, and he has a presentation.
00:11:21.759 -->
00:11:26.799Um, and I'm gonna stream it like at the end of that, and then you know it'll lead into the stream, right?
00:11:26.879 -->
00:11:32.720Which is kind of like the let's say the C tier um of how to promote in that kind of model, right?
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00:11:34.000The weakest, so to say.
00:11:34.240 -->
00:11:37.600So always say something new, life is always the best thing.
00:11:37.679 -->
00:11:38.960That's A plus, right?
00:11:39.200 -->
00:11:46.000Sending an evergreen of something that has been going on out, you know, probably doesn't catch the most attention in comparison to something completely new.
00:11:46.159 -->
00:11:48.399So that's kind of like the lowest tier, I would say.
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00:11:50.480That's a majority of the shows, right?
00:11:50.559 -->
00:11:52.000Because again, there are so many of them.
00:11:52.159 -->
00:11:53.600But it makes sense still, right?
00:11:53.759 -->
00:11:55.120People get people get the option.
00:11:55.200 -->
00:11:57.759It's like, okay, um, something's coming now.
00:11:57.840 -->
00:12:03.519I'm I'm seeing a presentation now that feeds into something that I saw before, but it kind of makes sense why it's been shown.
00:12:03.679 -->
00:12:05.840It's not just okay, and now it's over.
00:12:05.919 -->
00:12:07.840Here's some watch this ad.
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00:12:12.320Um and that um and that makes people stick around, you know.
00:12:12.399 -->
00:12:17.840Let's say if you have 500 people in a room, there'll still be like two or three hundred that watch the offer in the end.
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00:12:20.080They stay around, like they'll they'll be there, right?
00:12:20.240 -->
00:12:22.320And then first when we tried this, I was worried.
00:12:22.480 -->
00:12:27.519I would say, oh gosh, you know, maybe people maybe 10% stay, I don't know, you know.
00:12:27.679 -->
00:12:30.559Um but that you have the attention, they're there, right?
00:12:30.720 -->
00:12:35.840And you can still have a moderator in the chat that answers questions that's are in is in relation to the two.
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00:12:39.759Well, how does the content feed into what they're just seeing now on the ad?
00:12:39.919 -->
00:12:49.120And then obviously the better version is if let's say we want to promote a uh um a product from Lance Dipolito at the end of the show.
00:12:49.360 -->
00:12:54.159Well, ideally Lance comes in and at the end of the show, like the real Lance, right?
00:12:54.240 -->
00:13:00.960And now suddenly the show hosts and Lance go back and forth about hey, you have this cool new thing, and now Lance does the pitch, right?
00:13:01.200 -->
00:13:04.240Um, that is obviously the best thing you can you can kind of do, right?
00:13:04.399 -->
00:13:06.000And everything in between, right?
00:13:06.159 -->
00:13:10.399Um where it's like part Lance does a short intro and then it goes into the stream.
00:13:10.720 -->
00:13:12.799You can do, you can play around with that, right?
00:13:13.120 -->
00:13:16.639But that's obviously a much stronger and it makes even more sense to think.
00:13:16.879 -->
00:13:17.039Yeah.
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00:13:17.360Yeah.
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00:13:18.320Yeah.
00:13:18.399 -->
00:13:20.639And it and I love that.
00:13:20.720 -->
00:13:27.120And I think for anyone who's listening, who isn't aware, this isn't like a model that isn't scaled.
00:13:27.279 -->
00:13:39.120Like you've scaled this, and it I don't I know no one likes to get into specific numbers, but it rhymes with probably somewhere in the neighborhood of$70, 80 million a year in terms of like um sales here.
00:13:39.200 -->
00:13:45.200And so like this is a very robust approach to Finpub.
00:13:45.440 -->
00:13:52.399That I think um it is one of the most innovative things I think we've seen in the industry in the last 10 years in terms of models.
00:13:52.559 -->
00:13:55.600Um and so it's really exciting for me to see you guys doing this.
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00:14:00.159And so but it's it's a big challenge for folks.
00:14:00.240 -->
00:14:10.639And so I I'm really curious because prior to this, you were very much like you said, hot list driven, um kind of the traditional marketing calendar that everybody else is kind of familiar with.
00:14:11.039 -->
00:14:23.200From an operational perspective, then um what were the challenges to even begin to start to test this model and how is it different operationally like than the more traditional model for you?
00:14:23.279 -->
00:14:27.440So where were the biggest challenges, roadblocks, and like what are the things that you've kind of learned from this?
00:14:27.840 -->
00:14:28.480Yes.
00:14:28.799 -->
00:14:34.879Um, well, first of all, you need um you need people to to to run the shows, right?
00:14:35.120 -->
00:14:49.039And it can't only be uh your best editors, your best groups that you could fill a day with eight shows at all times that will burn them out, you know, and I'm now probably one or two of them saying it's like, hey, you're we're you know, they work really hard on this, right?
00:14:49.279 -->
00:15:04.960So this is really needs to be a bit of a cultural shift also in how editors are perceived in the job of the editor, whether maybe in the past has been you know comfortable uh uh at times or for under certain circumstances.
00:15:05.120 -->
00:15:12.159Hey, maybe you go live once a week, or you know, you you you write your email newsletter, and then there's a big promo every now and then, like once a quarter or something.
00:15:12.399 -->
00:15:15.759And um and I get that that's like awesome.
00:15:15.840 -->
00:15:17.600If that works, right if that monetizes.
00:15:17.679 -->
00:15:26.000But if that stops working or it puts the business at too much risk just because you're too dependent on the success of that, and if it fails, now suddenly you're really in trouble.
00:15:26.240 -->
00:15:34.879Um, so now it it really adds a lot of like time on uh our guru's calendar, and they've been fantastic about it, to be honest.
00:15:35.039 -->
00:15:41.440Um, so that has been like, you know, they proved it out with um uh Nate himself, right?
00:15:41.519 -->
00:15:43.679Uh Nate and Graham are copy chief.
00:15:43.759 -->
00:15:45.039Uh both of them started the show.
00:15:45.120 -->
00:15:46.639It's called the opening playbook.
00:15:46.879 -->
00:15:48.960I highly recommend everybody to kind of watch it.
00:15:49.039 -->
00:15:52.320Um I think if you just Google it, you'll you'll find it pretty quickly.
00:15:52.559 -->
00:16:00.320Um they um they proved it out for uh you know weeks and weeks and just showed like we can get this to work, right?
00:16:00.639 -->
00:16:06.159Um and uh we can we can do this also without it being like too scripted.
00:16:06.320 -->
00:16:11.679Like that doesn't have to be every day a copywriter has to write like a big script for the show.
00:16:11.840 -->
00:16:12.639No, right?
00:16:12.799 -->
00:16:18.399Because these people are fantastic at talking about the stock market, that's what they're passionate about, right?
00:16:18.480 -->
00:16:20.879That's what they know a lot about, that's what their job is, right?
00:16:20.960 -->
00:16:25.279They watch the market and um and that's just what they share with the customers, right?
00:16:25.440 -->
00:16:34.159So you have to create this kind of like understanding within, let's say, the guru community, um, that this is the way to sustainably make money moving forward, right?
00:16:34.320 -->
00:16:35.519And show the numbers.
00:16:35.600 -->
00:16:38.240And I think I think that that's what convinced them in the end.
00:16:39.679 -->
00:16:45.039And then the second thing is with the team, um, of course, there need to be some bigger changes.
00:16:45.200 -->
00:16:47.840So we started hiring show hosts for this, right?
00:16:48.000 -->
00:16:54.080Well, either we hired them from the external or we developed people like internally who had like skill in front of the camera, right?
00:16:54.240 -->
00:16:59.519Um, you know, we had someone who was working in the broadcasting department but showed great skill in front of the camera.
00:16:59.600 -->
00:17:02.399Now suddenly they run two shows on the weekend, right?
00:17:02.559 -->
00:17:14.720Um and obviously you can incentivize people that way um to you know um grow, right, to become better, which I think is something that excites me personally a lot to develop internal talent and make them into something better, right?
00:17:14.960 -->
00:17:19.279So you have to identify those people, hire them, and fill the calendar accordingly.
00:17:19.920 -->
00:17:25.200From a broadcasting perspective, to be honest, John, um things things got a little simpler, right?
00:17:25.359 -->
00:17:28.480Because we do send significantly less email overall.
00:17:28.720 -->
00:17:36.240So we don't have to build this in-depth marketing calendar anymore that has like this constant ad messaging.
00:17:36.400 -->
00:17:36.559Right.
00:17:36.720 -->
00:17:39.519So that got easier, uh frankly, right?
00:17:39.759 -->
00:17:45.839Um and um and that is something that excited me, or it was suddenly the broadcasting team is now smaller than it used to be before.
00:17:46.000 -->
00:17:48.240And it like reduced complexity, right?
00:17:48.400 -->
00:17:51.599And and again, less email, better email health, more fruitpit.
00:17:51.759 -->
00:17:55.440Like it's it's kind of like a cycle that that's very positive.
00:17:55.920 -->
00:18:01.119That is such a crazy thing to say in this industry, right?
00:18:01.200 -->
00:18:07.279Because for forever, since since we went online, the kind of rule has been send more mail, make more money.
00:18:07.519 -->
00:18:07.759Right?
00:18:08.000 -->
00:18:09.519Send more, send more, send more.
00:18:09.599 -->
00:18:25.440And that's why we have this kind of like arms race of like, you know, I mean, I'm I have it, I have a Gmail that is pretty much destroyed, and it's my primary one because I got put on everyone's master list, and you can't unsubscribe because everyone has put you on so many different lists.
00:18:25.519 -->
00:18:33.839And so it's like a Twitter feed now, and I still have people reaching out to me and I and I miss messages and stuff because it's like they're not even on the first page if I don't catch it, you know.
00:18:34.160 -->
00:18:54.240Um and so like to say that you send less mail and have and have grown so much and have um stabilized revenue, I mean when I say this is like an innovative, this is like the most revolutionary thing I've heard since I've started FMS in terms of how this business works, right?
00:18:54.400 -->
00:19:00.960Like um the hot list model added billions in revenue to the industry.
00:19:01.119 -->
00:19:10.480Um and now to be able to sit there and say, hey, we're we're able to make a more consistent revenue without losing money at all.
00:19:10.640 -->
00:19:17.519Like we're not going for lower revenue, we're growing revenue, and you're sending less total mail is is just remarkable.
00:19:17.680 -->
00:19:19.359Like it's just remarkable.
00:19:20.319 -->
00:19:20.720Yeah.
00:19:20.960 -->
00:19:22.559Yeah, we're pretty excited about it.
00:19:22.640 -->
00:19:28.720You know, I mean, um, granted, you know, this is uh uh this is still a relative new um thing.
00:19:28.799 -->
00:19:35.359You know, we're doing this for um I mean, all in, probably about six, seven months, doing it for 10 months or so, something.
00:19:35.519 -->
00:19:38.400Of course, it still needs to be proof itself out, right?
00:19:38.559 -->
00:19:42.880We're going through cycles now, the market's been difficult at beginning of the year, obviously, right?
00:19:43.119 -->
00:19:51.279But I'm pretty confident that um uh under different circumstances, the beginning of the year would have been pretty tough for us, you know.
00:19:51.519 -->
00:19:53.920And um we're we're doing pretty well, right?
00:19:54.160 -->
00:20:03.039Um you know, didn't but double our business at the beginning of the year now, but um I think under other circumstances we would have been hurting quite a lot.
00:20:03.519 -->
00:20:05.839Um let me just add one more thing.
00:20:06.000 -->
00:20:17.759What we still do if we launch new products, like entire new products, we do still want to keep that knowledge of how to proper launch and do the good old spiel of you know launching a product.
00:20:17.920 -->
00:20:20.079We still want to keep that in-house, right?
00:20:20.319 -->
00:20:32.480Because I mean, as a you know, as someone running a business, you always need to build a contingency plan and make sure that, hey, if this new thing you're trying is not like working out for certain circumstances, you still need those skills inside.
00:20:32.559 -->
00:20:36.799You can't have like a new team that suddenly doesn't even know what you know a hot list is anymore, right?
00:20:36.880 -->
00:20:38.160That would be really problematic.
00:20:38.400 -->
00:20:42.640So we still do that, um, but it has been reduced drastically, right?
00:20:42.799 -->
00:20:50.640Where it's the need for copy, for example, has been reduced drastically for it, because now suddenly you need so much less messages.
00:20:50.880 -->
00:20:59.279So now you can focus the energy of people writing these messages on making the messages that they do create like much more, much better, right?
00:20:59.440 -->
00:21:03.200It's not like, oh, I need to write a hundred emails today, or maybe write 10.
00:21:03.359 -->
00:21:06.160But they're now you put a lot of effort in that.
00:21:06.319 -->
00:21:14.079We all know you know if you take time and if you really think through what you're doing, it's always going to be a little bit better, just a couple of percent added here and there.
00:21:14.559 -->
00:21:15.119Right.
00:21:15.519 -->
00:21:17.839And it's always been a game of percentage points.
00:21:18.000 -->
00:21:19.440So it matters.
00:21:21.119 -->
00:21:26.000So that's that's so what's what's a what's a core kind of editorial?
00:21:26.240 -->
00:21:27.920Let's let's like look at this in segments then.
00:21:28.000 -->
00:21:30.319What's a kind of a core editorial team now look like for you?
00:21:30.400 -->
00:21:43.920You have a showrunner that you added into the mix, um, you have the guru who has to commit to being um showing up like kind of almost every day or or at least a few times a week on a show, whatever, whatever the model's gonna be for people.
00:21:44.160 -->
00:21:47.920Um what also so what is it what does the editorial piece look like?
00:21:48.000 -->
00:21:55.440And then, you know, how is your franchise kind of structured, I guess, um around an editor?
00:21:56.160 -->
00:21:56.799Yes.
00:21:57.119 -->
00:21:59.759Um, I mean, uh we you know, we operate.
00:22:00.240 -->
00:22:02.079In like different imprints, right?
00:22:02.640 -->
00:22:10.640So we have uh two bigger marketing teams that operate all of our imprints, but they're kind of like mirrored copies of each other, right?
00:22:10.880 -->
00:22:13.759Um they all are consisted of the same kind of team structure.
00:22:13.920 -->
00:22:22.480There's a broadcasting component, there's a paid editorial component, there's a free editorial component, and then there's a marketing messaging um uh component, right?
00:22:22.720 -->
00:22:25.359They're all fed by a centralized copy team.
00:22:25.519 -->
00:22:35.599Um, they're all fed by centralized systems operations, Martech, and all that kind of stuff that cater to their needs depending on what they need, what they need to do.
00:22:35.839 -->
00:22:53.200Um the free, the free editorial team is the one that needs to, together with the gurus and the guru's analysts, because uh depending on how big a franchise gets, you know, we you know you need uh need analysts to even make it possible so that fulfillment can be uh can can be done.
00:22:53.359 -->
00:22:58.000Uh creates this kind of messaging again that that makes that should make sense ideally, right?
00:22:58.400 -->
00:23:11.200Fully fed into what is the guru guru doing on a daily basis, like what is their basic principle of their products and ideas, combined with what are their shows promised to deliver to the customer.
00:23:11.440 -->
00:23:11.759Right.
00:23:12.079 -->
00:23:14.960So that is what the free editorial team is creating.
00:23:15.039 -->
00:23:20.960Um and a bunch of um bunch of the content is now also going out through those SMS channels for those shows, right?
00:23:21.119 -->
00:23:29.039It's like short to the point content pieces that are part of the promise what the show is supposed to deliver, right?
00:23:29.440 -->
00:23:39.759Yes, we you know the free editorial team also writes still email newsletters on a constant basis because you know that is a that is a source, so that's a that's a channel that we don't want to lose.
00:23:39.920 -->
00:23:41.519And they're doing a fantastic job with it.
00:23:41.599 -->
00:23:45.519Like we use a lot of AI supporting this, of course, like everybody does now.
00:23:46.160 -->
00:23:47.839We're getting better and better at it.
00:23:48.160 -->
00:23:53.039The quality and the quantity of uh content output is has increased quite a lot.
00:23:53.279 -->
00:23:59.039Um, but um it again, it needs to be messaging that all makes sense together, right?
00:23:59.200 -->
00:24:08.240For every channel, every marketing channel that we have, and now the show, every single show is one, the messaging should be very consistent with what the show is promising on a constant basis.
00:24:08.559 -->
00:24:11.359That is what the free editorial team is kind of structuring right now.
00:24:11.519 -->
00:24:22.559So um each of um each of those we call them pods, uh our marketing units that I just described, each of them have one um free editorial um manager.
00:24:22.720 -->
00:24:23.920Um, you call that.
00:24:24.480 -->
00:24:28.160So there isn't a team of 20 writing that, right?
00:24:28.319 -->
00:24:32.079So now they'll probably, if they see this, they'll probably say, yeah, oh you know, we have a lot to do.
00:24:33.039 -->
00:24:34.799And I agree, they're they work really hard.
00:24:34.960 -->
00:24:38.960Um but um uh it's uh it's it's not a big team anymore.
00:24:39.039 -->
00:24:42.079And I think we can manage the manage the messaging like that, right?
00:24:42.240 -->
00:24:45.839Especially if we help the gurus help a little, the analysts help a little.
00:24:46.160 -->
00:24:52.480So getting the best content out to customers is uh what we try to try to do at all times.
00:24:53.039 -->
00:24:53.839Right, right.
00:24:54.079 -->
00:25:13.839And then for the for the show concepts, then are you using basically kind of the same the same kind of framework you would maybe use for a free e-letter and say like we're gonna make this into a show concept, but structure or from a from an editorial standpoint, conceptually you're you're still looking at like these are kind of the framework um that we would use for an e-letter, but now we're just delivering that conversation in this format.
00:25:14.079 -->
00:25:14.960Is that about the same?
00:25:15.839 -->
00:25:16.079Yes.
00:25:16.240 -->
00:25:25.119If you if you look at like conceptualization of um uh an e-letter, and you know, I still remember from back in the day how that would take a lot of time, right?
00:25:25.200 -->
00:25:34.799You would put like a lot of ideas and effort into building a product or building an e-letter, um, maybe even have like conferences about it with a bunch of people um all trying to align.
00:25:35.039 -->
00:26:06.960You know, I um what I like about a good concept for an e-letter or now one of those shows is if the promise is explained really quickly, if a customer gets it just um, yeah, of course I need to, I need to um uh I need to get on that show because every day at the closing bell, right, there will be a chart pattern laid out for me in this show that explains to me uh you know what I can do after hours or what I can do for the for the next opening or analyze a certain commodity on a constant basis.
00:26:07.200 -->
00:26:23.920Very simple, very clear promises that are not too general, but I think people are um not sick because it still has a place, but people are bored of too generalized content where it's like, yeah, well, we'll talk about the market and see, you know, maybe uh we'll just uh I mean, I don't know.
00:26:24.079 -->
00:26:26.799You can turn on the TV or anything, anything for that.
00:26:26.880 -->
00:26:28.240Like it's it's gonna be the same.
00:26:28.400 -->
00:26:31.279Something very much niche to the point.
00:26:31.440 -->
00:26:34.400And and that's how those are conceptualized, right?
00:26:34.480 -->
00:26:36.240And that promise needs to be delivered.
00:26:36.400 -->
00:26:38.480I'm not sure if we always do a good job at that.
00:26:38.559 -->
00:26:42.160Sometimes maybe we move away a little bit from it, but at least that's what we try.
00:26:42.240 -->
00:26:45.519And it's also if we review what we're doing there, we have to challenge ourselves.
00:26:45.680 -->
00:26:46.880Do we still hold up that promise?
00:26:46.960 -->
00:26:53.519Or does that show need to be course corrected because it has moved too much into a different direction and doesn't add up anymore?
00:26:54.160 -->
00:26:57.359Yeah, but I love that because it's not we're not talking about just general market news.
00:26:57.440 -->
00:26:58.960This is you can get that.
00:26:59.279 -->
00:27:05.039And honestly, like the I'm sure the revenue per user on a general market news kind of TV show, right?
00:27:05.200 -->
00:27:15.359Like that's there's a reason they have the advertising model for their other and hopefully brand advertising because it doesn't deliver the same way as a really targeted niche conversation to a specific audience can.
00:27:15.839 -->
00:27:19.759Um so you're doing eight shows a day.
00:27:19.920 -->
00:27:23.519What do you guys just you what do you guys use for um your streaming platform?
00:27:24.400 -->
00:27:28.480Um so I mean, we try to do like an omni-platform approach.
00:27:28.559 -->
00:27:34.640So we try to give customers as many um uh um many opportunities to to watch our show.
00:27:34.799 -->
00:27:42.079But I think at the core we use WeSpop um um to get stuff out there, but we'll stream on um uh stream on YouTube.
00:27:42.400 -->
00:27:49.119Um usually every of our imprint has a YouTube channel also where we host the videos, you know, gets some organic traffic.
00:27:49.359 -->
00:27:53.440We have tapped into a whole new uh YouTube um uh path.
00:27:53.519 -->
00:27:55.440Uh it's called Unfiltered Finance.
00:27:55.519 -->
00:27:56.640Uh, we're quite happy with it.
00:27:56.720 -->
00:27:59.119Like we got an amazing showrunner for it, Emily.
00:27:59.200 -->
00:28:06.640She used to be a TV anchor, and um uh she she's doing a fantastic job at uh kind of like building that up for us.
00:28:06.799 -->
00:28:08.559Um and you know, everybody should check it out.
00:28:08.640 -->
00:28:10.720It's uh it's pretty cool stuff that she's doing.
00:28:10.960 -->
00:28:13.519Um but we didn't have a YouTube strategy before.
00:28:13.599 -->
00:28:18.720So it's not exactly like um we'll want to grow organic traffic through putting it there.
00:28:18.960 -->
00:28:23.759But if somebody wants to watch it through YouTube, because they that's that preference, right?
00:28:24.079 -->
00:28:29.599Um, you know, we'll you know, we create it at some point and then we stream it into all sorts of different uh places.
00:28:29.759 -->
00:28:30.799Um that's what we do.
00:28:30.880 -->
00:28:31.119Yeah.
00:28:31.519 -->
00:28:31.680Yeah.
00:28:31.839 -->
00:28:40.160I think that's another area where you guys have been kind of on the on the leading edge of things, is that you use way more um platforms um than most other publishers.
00:28:40.240 -->
00:28:43.119I mean, you have Discords, you have tele, like you said, you have telegrams.
00:28:43.279 -->
00:28:46.480Um how does that piece fit generally for you guys?
00:28:46.640 -->
00:28:55.039Because you do like it's con it's both content, it's the editorial piece is is hosted in different places, and there's marketing that way.
00:28:55.200 -->
00:28:59.279So um, what does that look like for you to use all these different platforms?
00:28:59.680 -->
00:29:00.079Yeah.
00:29:00.319 -->
00:29:06.559I mean, um you need you need everything to be backed by a very solid Martech foundation, right?
00:29:06.960 -->
00:29:16.319So it can't be that all of these have to be um maintained uh um and somebody needs to even get like an access to all of that.
00:29:16.559 -->
00:29:24.480Ideally, everything's created in one single point of truth, and then just it gets multiplied into all these platforms, right?
00:29:24.720 -->
00:29:28.160Um, that's the best path forward that you could take with that kind of stuff.
00:29:28.400 -->
00:29:35.279Just give the customer the chance to watch it on their like on the platform of their preference, right?
00:29:35.359 -->
00:29:38.160But without adding like complexity for the team with it.
00:29:38.319 -->
00:29:41.119So there needs to be work done beforehand, right?
00:29:41.279 -->
00:29:44.720And uh, you know, Dave Ditman and his team um doing a great job with that.
00:29:45.039 -->
00:29:47.839They're trying to, you know, always make it as simple as possible.
00:29:49.039 -->
00:29:51.359I have a strict rule that we don't compliment David Ditman.
00:29:52.880 -->
00:29:53.200Okay.
00:29:53.440 -->
00:29:57.599Yeah, that's uh you know, um I've known David since that in a 2005.
00:29:57.759 -->
00:29:59.119Uh great friend, yeah.
00:29:59.279 -->
00:29:59.839Love him.
00:30:00.160 -->
00:30:00.880Yeah, yeah.
00:30:01.039 -->
00:30:13.039And uh yeah, he uh you know, uh he and his team uh trying to make it as simple as possible, not only for employees uh that had then have to operate it, because that's what I want to get rid of at all times, right?
00:30:13.119 -->
00:30:16.799Kind of like nonsensical tasks for employees, right?
00:30:17.119 -->
00:30:30.000And and you know, and I think maybe we can talk more about that at some point, but if you use AI, if you use you know any kind of vibe coding or anything like that, right, should never be at the expense of like, oh, we have to get rid of a lot of people, right?
00:30:30.079 -->
00:30:34.079I think that's a very poor choice uh on a on different levels, right?
00:30:34.240 -->
00:30:41.279It's like like like to keep the same people, make them better, make them earn more, make them grow, but with like much, a much bigger output.
00:30:41.440 -->
00:30:51.519So let's get rid of all nonsensical tasks, which would be to just post the same video on six different platforms that now this person is waiting there and upload and all that kind of stuff.
00:30:51.759 -->
00:30:57.759Automate that, make it as simple as possible, um, and uh free their time up to do more meaningful tasks.
00:30:58.160 -->
00:30:58.720Right, right.
00:30:58.960 -->
00:31:08.240Which is again, like I think about when Morgan came to one of a when well hosted one of the um FMS Pro Accelerator meetings in Jacksonville last year.
00:31:08.480 -->
00:31:09.759Is it last year?
00:31:10.319 -->
00:31:18.000Um, and he showed a lot of the AI tools you guys have been building for the for the um copy team, and it was pretty impressive how many different things.
00:31:18.240 -->
00:31:29.839And you're right, like how many, like just even I was like even simple things, you're like, oh, that makes so much sense to like we have a format generator for trade alerts, so that's all consistent, and it's like nobody has to do the same, like nobody has to set this up.
00:31:30.079 -->
00:31:37.519Um so with the AI piece, then like where are like how are you using this then to get rid of all these nonsensical tasks?
00:31:37.599 -->
00:31:46.640Like, what do you think are the biggest kind of um time savers or um output maximizers that you guys have developed?
00:31:47.039 -->
00:31:47.519Yeah.
00:31:47.839 -->
00:31:55.599Well, I think one of the biggest that can show for real numbers and it's just um uh it's been unstoppable for us or uh called Groupot.
00:31:55.759 -->
00:32:00.640I don't even know how that name came up, but uh you know, but it's um Groobot.
00:32:00.880 -->
00:32:04.720Uh um I'll have to check with the guys again what the uh why it was called that.
00:32:04.880 -->
00:32:08.559Um but um it's uh essentially an appointment setter, right?
00:32:08.640 -->
00:32:10.079Um we use it for telesales.
00:32:10.559 -->
00:32:14.079Um and um you know it has been a game changer, right?
00:32:14.160 -->
00:32:21.440So the job of the setter um that has been like an absolute requirement for um high-ticket sales um always, right?
00:32:21.599 -->
00:32:22.079One-on-one.
00:32:22.240 -->
00:32:30.079I mean, I'm not a telesales guy myself, but everything I've always seen, yeah, you need great setters that like warm up these leads and put them in place for the for the agents.
00:32:30.319 -->
00:32:38.000So Groupat does that um um to put it very simply, and it fills up a pipeline um uh for all these agents.
00:32:38.160 -->
00:32:47.440So they they log on in the morning, and now that day is scheduled with like these meetings, and they just need to you know pick the ripe uh uh fruit um and uh make the sale.
00:32:47.599 -->
00:32:51.920And it's great for the customer too, because they get a lot of context and information beforehand.
00:32:52.160 -->
00:33:03.440The the um you know, the groupot campaigns that are running, they can be written and they can be they can be put in place by the best person possible that you have on your team, right?
00:33:03.599 -->
00:33:13.119So now imagine the smartest guy, best experience in sales and all of that kind of stuff, is kind of like the the conductor of Groupot, right?
00:33:13.200 -->
00:33:15.039Sitting there like doing a little orchestra.
00:33:15.119 -->
00:33:17.839Um and it will be so much more impactful.
00:33:18.000 -->
00:33:24.559Like no, like uh you know, no setter in the world could do the same job as like your chief of sales, right?
00:33:24.640 -->
00:33:24.720Right.
00:33:24.880 -->
00:33:27.359It's like the smartest guy, the best guy, best experience.
00:33:27.599 -->
00:33:37.839So um the likelihood of those um of those um uh um of those appointments actually happening and somebody actually showing up for it, it's much higher, right?
00:33:37.920 -->
00:33:45.039Because now you you know have an AI talking to these customers with the voice of that head of sales, right?
00:33:45.279 -->
00:33:47.440And so that has been massive for us.
00:33:47.680 -->
00:33:49.920What's that what's that look like from the customer's perspective then?
00:33:50.000 -->
00:33:51.599Like how is this conversation happening?
00:33:51.680 -->
00:33:54.640Is there a is it a chat on the on the website?
00:33:54.799 -->
00:33:57.680Is it kind of a series of emails that goes back into a chat?
00:33:57.839 -->
00:34:01.119Like how how does that look from from the customer experience?
00:34:01.440 -->
00:34:05.680Well, there's a certain set of rules in place of like what leads are eligible, right, for for that.
00:34:05.920 -->
00:34:10.480It could be, you know, and you could change those rules and you can play around with it kind of like that's segmentation, right?
00:34:10.559 -->
00:34:11.840That's that's always first.
00:34:12.000 -->
00:34:26.239Um let's say we first we look at people that have um you know bought a certain product from uh Roger Scott last week, um, and they've also owned another product from Roger, and now they may be eligible for a bigger bundle product, right?
00:34:26.320 -->
00:34:27.920That uh could be interesting for them.
00:34:28.159 -->
00:34:32.480And so um now it starts to contact them, um, and it's usually omni-channel.
00:34:32.719 -->
00:34:39.840Try to do SMS, it's uh it's it's email, um, you know, it's a sequence that could start on both, and it goes back and forth with them, right?
00:34:40.000 -->
00:34:46.079Um it's like, hey, you know, you've bought this and uh this is why it has been great, this is why it makes sense to to look at that.
00:34:46.159 -->
00:34:49.119And have you have you heard that Roger has like these other products, right?
00:34:49.199 -->
00:35:02.239And it starts talking to them and then obviously starts asking questions like, okay, well, could you would you consider like for like um you know a consulting um with us and talk to one of our um people to kind of talk about your product portfolio?
00:35:02.320 -->
00:35:04.320Because we think there might be something for you.
00:35:04.559 -->
00:35:10.960And um uh and then you know it just goes on back and forth, really to the moment of um let's schedule this.
00:35:11.039 -->
00:35:12.079Are you free to stay?
00:35:12.239 -->
00:35:12.719Are you not?
00:35:12.800 -->
00:35:13.280And so on.
00:35:13.440 -->
00:35:14.880There's always an escalation path.
00:35:14.960 -->
00:35:19.920If that you know, if the the AI can't answer something, it'll always go back to a human, right?
00:35:20.159 -->
00:35:25.199Um, so uh we'll obviously have to review it and make sure that there's you know great communication happening with the customer.
00:35:25.440 -->
00:35:32.320Customer's not being told anything that we don't want them to be, because that's always the most important thing for me, just do right by the customer, right?
00:35:32.480 -->
00:35:36.559Yeah, and um and that's how uh the appointment comes to be.
00:35:36.719 -->
00:35:39.280And uh so we are able to schedule so many of them.
00:35:39.440 -->
00:35:42.079And uh and it's running on all cylinders, right?
00:35:42.159 -->
00:35:46.480And uh um yeah, uh that has been a blessing for uh for the sales team.
00:35:46.639 -->
00:35:50.000And again, you don't need to get rid of people that were sellers.
00:35:50.239 -->
00:35:56.880That's it's quite important for me because it sounds like yeah, you found a way to save some money on paying the seller salary.
00:35:57.039 -->
00:35:57.840No, not at all.
00:35:58.079 -->
00:36:04.000Now develop them into you know, maybe junior agents or develop them into somebody that helps writing campaign.
00:36:04.079 -->
00:36:07.360You know, that's um uh that's how I view it, right?
00:36:07.440 -->
00:36:14.719So now they do they upscale, like they they they do a higher qualified task, they perform a higher qualified task.
00:36:14.960 -->
00:36:17.840And that's what I want them to do, you know, because they'll grow, right?
00:36:17.920 -->
00:36:22.320And I'm happy to pay more money for that, actually, than they did before because now they have more impact.
00:36:22.480 -->
00:36:22.719Yeah.
00:36:23.119 -->
00:36:24.079Yeah, yeah, I love that.
00:36:24.159 -->
00:36:33.440I love that that kind of frame for how to how to um use AI with the team is is to get more more out of the people you have, not get rid of the people you have.
00:36:33.760 -->
00:36:35.840Um and so that's great.
00:36:35.920 -->
00:36:41.519So, what other so besides the Groupot, um, what what else has been really kind of a game changer for you guys?
00:36:41.920 -->
00:36:42.400Yeah.
00:36:42.639 -->
00:36:50.559Um I guess like probably not gonna talk too much about you know editorial and copy, because I think everybody's kind of doing that right now to a different degree.
00:36:50.719 -->
00:36:54.000We have all that, we do all that, we use it, and we it gets better.
00:36:54.400 -->
00:37:01.519Um But um uh I think one of the things that we're uh working on right now, and it's it's very fresh still, but it's gonna go out.
00:37:01.599 -->
00:37:04.639It's uh um, you know, it's a new broadcasting platform, right?
00:37:04.800 -->
00:37:11.280So where we uh try to automize or try to take out the scheduling element almost entirely, right?
00:37:11.599 -->
00:37:16.400Which is is and I said earlier that we do less of it, but still it's a lot, right?
00:37:16.480 -->
00:37:17.920So and it fills people's day.
00:37:18.000 -->
00:37:29.679And it's setting up emails on your um uh on your ESP or on your um uh um on your SMS platform can be a tedious job and it's there's a high potential for error, right?
00:37:29.760 -->
00:37:32.079You always need to do all these items for it.
00:37:32.239 -->
00:37:39.360Somebody needs to deliver the text and the subject line needs to be put in, needs to be proof-checked, it needs to be tested and all that kind of stuff.
00:37:39.599 -->
00:37:47.119So what it'll do now, um, you know, we have the best people again, are kind of like marketing admins that create the calendar, right?
00:37:47.360 -->
00:37:49.760Like inventory managers, we call them.
00:37:49.920 -->
00:37:53.920Um, and they make the best decision that should make us the most money, right?
00:37:54.079 -->
00:37:58.800Like pick the messaging and send it out at the right time that it makes us the most money.
00:37:59.039 -->
00:38:19.280So they create the calendar, and from that point on, AI takes over, takes the messaging, pushes it to our email sender, um, you know, sets it up, does test sense internally, pushes it back as a feedback loop to those um inventory admins that they can kind of see, okay, 18 emails went out.
00:38:19.360 -->
00:38:23.039Those are the snapshots of the um of the test sense.
00:38:23.519 -->
00:38:25.280Good, good, good, good, good.
00:38:25.519 -->
00:38:27.360Um, number seven has an error.
00:38:27.519 -->
00:38:32.800You can basically talk to it as like, hey, change the subject line, it doesn't want that dub way.
00:38:33.440 -->
00:38:34.960Do another test, right?
00:38:35.119 -->
00:38:37.760Without actually logging into the platform, right?
00:38:38.159 -->
00:38:41.920And um there's those multiple security levels of it, right?
00:38:42.000 -->
00:38:44.159Because it tests itself, it proof checks.
00:38:44.239 -->
00:38:49.039Is the information matching that was put in, does it mat, does it match the output?
00:38:49.119 -->
00:38:54.639And if it misses something, there'll always be human interaction at the end that does the final execution of it, right?
00:38:54.800 -->
00:38:59.679But it takes away of the classical broadcaster role almost entirely, right?
00:39:00.239 -->
00:39:08.719Um and that has that's I think gonna be massive for us because now we can we can be so much more granular, right?
00:39:08.880 -->
00:39:16.960So now we can increase again the amount of of broad messages broadcasted, but that doesn't mean that a customer gets more email, but it's more granular.
00:39:17.039 -->
00:39:24.079So now you can you know do a you know a segmentation that's uh a hundred levels deep, right, if you want to.
00:39:24.480 -->
00:39:31.920And um I think that's fantastic, it's just like much humanly possible, other than having a team of 20 people sit there, right?
00:39:32.079 -->
00:39:36.559Performing a very simple task of setting up emails and sending them out, right?
00:39:36.800 -->
00:39:46.880Which now these people can be developed into become system administration uh system administrators for that AI tool, make it better, control it, like you know, make it more granular.
00:39:47.199 -->
00:39:51.199Again, you don't have to get rid of them, absolutely not, because that has never been the goal.
00:39:51.440 -->
00:39:57.280Develop them into something where they can be grow, where they can grow themselves and have more impact for the company and for themselves.
00:39:58.719 -->
00:39:59.199Nice.
00:39:59.519 -->
00:40:11.679Why do you guys think you why do you think you guys have such a how do I put it, like a I don't want to say experimental, but you have a very like like you said, you're very tech forward, you're very test forward.
00:40:11.760 -->
00:40:23.760You're really trying like on each of these areas from platforms to the broadcasting to the basic format, like you guys have to have a culture of kind of pushing the model itself forward.
00:40:24.159 -->
00:40:26.400Um I mean, is that consciously cultivated?
00:40:26.480 -->
00:40:32.880Like, or is it just kind of like the how like how do you guys kind of maintain that culture and how does that culture culture feel inside this business?
00:40:33.119 -->
00:40:40.719Because you are consistently, you know, it's Morgan, it's Nate, um it's you, it, you know, I I know I know you I know you guys also well, right?
00:40:40.800 -->
00:40:50.079Like you know, Dittman for Forever, and um but I really do feel like it's very different than other publishing groups that I that I know, right?
00:40:50.159 -->
00:41:00.559Like other publishing groups almost feel like you know, they like this feeling of being, you know, we're still kind of this old school kind of publishing model.
00:41:01.039 -->
00:41:07.840Um and then they they do launches and things and it works, or they're or they're very copy forward, and so everything's about the copy.
00:41:08.079 -->
00:41:18.639Um but I I do, I think you guys have a very kind of unique culture in the industry um that is pushing the entire model forward, which is fascinating to me.
00:41:19.119 -->
00:41:19.679Yeah.
00:41:20.000 -->
00:41:24.480And you know, I don't think that's uh a product of chance at all.
00:41:24.639 -->
00:41:31.119Um that's very uh that's a very conscious cultural development that we've kind of established over the last couple of years.
00:41:31.360 -->
00:41:38.559And I think at the core of all of this is the the original partnership that we entered uh with Morgan uh back in the day, right?
00:41:38.719 -->
00:41:46.400So, you know, I'm you know, me me coming from Germany, as probably everybody I can't hide the accent, even though I try, you know, sound sound more American with Germany.
00:41:48.159 -->
00:41:59.599Um But um uh um some of the core values that we have in Germany um are very complementary to the values that um make US publishers so great, right?
00:41:59.760 -->
00:42:01.360And both sides have weaknesses.
00:42:01.519 -->
00:42:20.480And I think we're at the beginning of this partnership, both sides were really cognizant of those weaknesses in particular, and just say, well, you know, the American drive to s to sell and the the creative output and the the willingness to grind and grow and all of that is is amazing, right?
00:42:20.559 -->
00:42:22.639And it's it's 10 times better than it is in Germany.
00:42:22.719 -->
00:42:26.400Well, maybe not 10 times, but uh like um a good bit more.
00:42:26.559 -->
00:42:36.159Whereas like the German side is much more, you know, um on the analytic side, much more on the engineering side of the business, putting teams together and all that kind of stuff.
00:42:36.480 -->
00:42:40.320But sometimes what the one side's lacking, the other side just has.
00:42:40.400 -->
00:42:45.039And this, you know, that was that was the beginning of this partnership where we thought, wow, this is great.
00:42:45.199 -->
00:42:47.360Like you, you're great at this, and we're great at this.
00:42:47.440 -->
00:42:49.199So like just pair it together, right?
00:42:49.440 -->
00:43:04.960And I think the product of the last couple of years, and that we can be what you just described, that we can be very aggressive and testing new things and trying new things out is um, you know, Morgan and um also Nate or Graham Lindman or Copy Chief, they're creative geniuses.
00:43:05.199 -->
00:43:10.480They're you know, they're visionaries, they have they have fantastic ideas to drive them forward, right?
00:43:10.880 -->
00:43:25.519So taking all that and then not making like great ideas evaporate because they're there for a month and then they're gone because you couldn't follow up on them and they couldn't materialize them into like a more mature business.
00:43:25.679 -->
00:43:29.760That's now what we could could have built with it, like with help of somebody like Dipman, right?
00:43:29.840 -->
00:43:33.679And just making sure that you know we have the right underbelly for it.
00:43:33.920 -->
00:43:39.199And um it's it's not a coincidence that that culture is possible, right?
00:43:39.519 -->
00:43:49.280Because you can burn your business pretty quickly if you just like randomly test and do all sorts of things randomly, but you don't have any kind of structured throughput of it, right?
00:43:49.760 -->
00:43:54.480Um that is you know the bottle and neck of all American publishers are not ideas.
00:43:54.639 -->
00:43:55.920It's throughput, I would say.
00:43:56.000 -->
00:43:56.559You know?
00:43:56.719 -->
00:44:05.920Um it's just yeah, sometimes there's The lack of the ability to deploy and iterate ideas fast enough and make them stick, right?
00:44:06.400 -->
00:44:09.280Um, and uh and that is what we've managed to do.
00:44:09.360 -->
00:44:11.840And so now we can do all these things, right?
00:44:11.920 -->
00:44:18.400And we can have somebody like Morgan, who's a great visionary and is a you know, great business thinker, come up with really cool ideas.
00:44:18.559 -->
00:44:22.400We try new stuff, and we can actually do it in a meaningful way.
00:44:22.480 -->
00:44:25.360We can actually implement it in a meaningful way, and that feels great, right?
00:44:25.440 -->
00:44:27.519And everybody feels more empowered through that.
00:44:27.679 -->
00:44:29.440So net builds the culture, right?
00:44:29.599 -->
00:44:34.480And that hasn't been a coincidence because that is how the partnership was founded.
00:44:34.800 -->
00:44:36.800Clear separation of labor, right?
00:44:36.960 -->
00:44:44.480Like I, for example, I would never I mean, I'm a financial publisher now also for 13 years or something.
00:44:44.639 -->
00:44:57.760I'd never even like question Nate on his decision to create a new product in a word and way, like uh on his strategic uh composition of our guru portfolio or anything of that.
00:44:58.079 -->
00:45:00.400He knows 10 times more than that, and I do, right?
00:45:00.719 -->
00:45:09.440Um separation of labor within empowering the people in their position and then really like believing in them, right?
00:45:09.760 -->
00:45:12.800Hire somebody on customer service that you truly believe in.
00:45:13.119 -->
00:45:16.400We have a new uh chief of customer service we hired recently.
00:45:16.559 -->
00:45:18.480Um she's fantastic, right?
00:45:18.639 -->
00:45:26.800So whatever she wants to do with making a customer happy, I'm not gonna challenge her in that just because you know I'm I'm technically her boss, right?
00:45:26.960 -->
00:45:40.159I create a culture where people are empowered and really happy um to actually express themselves in their job and not put in by some constraints by a person that is a know-it-all, right?
00:45:40.239 -->
00:45:44.000And just claims to, just because I'm here for 20 years, I know everything.
00:45:44.239 -->
00:45:45.360Nah, I don't.
00:45:45.519 -->
00:45:48.320You know, you know, I can still own it if it goes wrong.
00:45:48.400 -->
00:45:49.440That's fine, right?
00:45:49.840 -->
00:45:55.119But um uh it, you know, it's all about empowering them, uh composition of team.
00:45:55.280 -->
00:46:10.880So it's about you know, real separation of labor and believing in each other, and having a leadership team that has that separated out, and everybody believes, no, no, that like she is the best at customer service, so we're gonna follow her on her decisions on that, and not somebody dictating all of that.
00:46:11.039 -->
00:46:15.360Because that can go really well and you can have great growth, but then you can also crash really hard.
00:46:15.440 -->
00:46:17.599And we've seen that over and over again in the past.
00:46:17.679 -->
00:46:18.880And that's what I want to avoid.
00:46:19.039 -->
00:46:27.760So yeah, no, I think I mean that's that that is one of those, you know, there's repeating trends in the industry.
00:46:28.239 -->
00:46:45.280And I think that um successful publishers reaching a point either getting stuck because, like you said, there's the there's one person like who got them there, and that that person kind of runs almost like an ideological tyrant.
00:46:45.519 -->
00:46:48.400Like it's their way of doing it, and that's it.
00:46:48.639 -->
00:46:50.639Um that's a great way.
00:46:50.719 -->
00:46:52.480That's a great way of putting one steal that, John.
00:46:52.639 -->
00:46:53.599Like that's like I like that.
00:46:53.679 -->
00:46:54.000I like that.
00:46:55.280 -->
00:47:01.920Um but that's usually the thing that like you get to a certain point, and it's like that that approach got you here, but it's not gonna get you to the next level.
00:47:02.000 -->
00:47:03.119And so you see that that happen.
00:47:03.280 -->
00:47:16.960But then you also see that like the somebody who grows, and then they may not have a complete collapse, but they fall back quite a bit from where that growth took them.
00:47:17.119 -->
00:47:31.280Um and often, actually, ironically, going back to the start of this conversation, um it often happens or coincides with a market downturn combined with a couple of hot list launch kind of failures, right?
00:47:31.599 -->
00:47:48.880And all of a sudden the volatility of the business is you know really strong to the downside for them, and their cash position starts to fail, and they start to get in a really rough position, and it's very hard to recover because they have to stop their acquisition or dramatically lower their acquisition, so they have fewer leads in the door.
00:47:49.840 -->
00:47:53.920And it can become a really painful cycle for a lot of folks.
00:47:54.320 -->
00:47:54.719Yeah.
00:47:54.960 -->
00:47:58.880I mean, that there can be a lot of like hidden uh um fragility, right?
00:47:58.960 -->
00:48:04.239Like where uh you know you you've masked certain things by aggressive growth.
00:48:04.480 -->
00:48:13.280You didn't have um the underconstruction for it, and now you realize, oh gosh, it's like and I'd much rather get ahead of the curve and like try to construct that before, right?
00:48:13.599 -->
00:48:18.880And another thing in our industry, I think, that that is that is dangerous, like a trap to fall in.
00:48:18.960 -->
00:48:21.840I think you know, I call it vanity metrics, right?
00:48:22.239 -->
00:48:30.400Um when you have a conversation about somebody of you know, whatever they do, like uh click-through rates, uh revenue, right?
00:48:30.559 -->
00:48:35.199Um like our CFO always says, uh says like he wants to live on Net Island.
00:48:35.280 -->
00:48:36.719I I like that a lot, right?
00:48:36.800 -->
00:48:48.559And as as a it's fine to talk to external um folks about more broad, bigger picture um uh metrics, but there's a danger if you start believing them yourself, right?
00:48:48.960 -->
00:48:52.000If you talk about I make so and so much, right?
00:48:52.159 -->
00:48:54.000I make a thousand dollars, right?
00:48:54.239 -->
00:48:57.599But that's the the top line, top line of top line, right?
00:48:57.760 -->
00:49:00.800You should not believe yourself that you actually made a thousand dollars.
00:49:00.960 -->
00:49:08.800That gets dangerous and it becomes copper like corporate culture that you believe your own vanity metrics, you'll start to make really poor decisions.
00:49:08.960 -->
00:49:15.199So be really honest about your like to yourself at least and your in your team, like inner uh you're in a team.
00:49:15.360 -->
00:49:17.760Of course, you don't have to share every metric with everybody out there.
00:49:17.840 -->
00:49:19.920That's that's I understand that too.
00:49:20.079 -->
00:49:23.199But if you start believing them yourself, you're in trouble, I think.
00:49:23.360 -->
00:49:25.199And I think you have to double check yourself.
00:49:25.519 -->
00:49:28.239What metrics do I actually believe in?
00:49:28.400 -->
00:49:29.599So yeah, I love that.
00:49:29.679 -->
00:49:46.719And it reminds me of the kind of the back and forth that um back, I'd say pre pre-COVID with um Porter Stansbury and some of the other Agora publishers at the time and Mark Wise, where you know, there was other groups with higher top line numbers, and they're like, We're bigger.
00:49:46.880 -->
00:49:50.480And he's like, Well, we have a higher net, what matters?
00:49:50.719 -->
00:49:53.039And it's like, yeah, that's that's absolutely right.
00:49:53.199 -->
00:49:54.960What what what what actually matters?
00:49:55.119 -->
00:50:19.199Um that that's yeah, so I guess then um how we don't talk about this much at all, or I don't normally, because it's not my not my wheelhouse, but you know, speaking of people like Ditman, like the tech team you have is is is super important, right?
00:50:19.360 -->
00:50:22.960Like um and increasingly so I feel like.
00:50:23.199 -->
00:50:26.880Uh how do you think of the the tech side of this and the tech?
00:50:27.039 -->
00:50:35.360Because I, you know, I know Matt Paulson over at Market Beat is phenomenal, and he's himself a phenomenal, like he's a he's a programmer, he has a really strong dev team.
00:50:35.519 -->
00:50:43.199Um they've built, and he he's said many times that you know if if Market Beat has an advantage, it's it's their it's their analytics, it's their data.
00:50:43.360 -->
00:50:50.159It's like they're so good at it that they know what they can spend and how to spend it and what they're gonna make, and and they they've built a phenomenal business.
00:50:50.320 -->
00:50:59.760Um but I think again, it's one of those areas of publishing that um is you know it's underappreciated and it's underinvested in for a lot of publishers.
00:50:59.920 -->
00:51:04.880Um so how how how do you kind of view that side of the business and where it fits?
00:51:05.280 -->
00:51:05.840Yes.
00:51:06.320 -->
00:51:12.960Um yeah, well, you know, um uh I'm I'm definitely with Matt there and applaud him for for his success.
00:51:13.039 -->
00:51:16.400You know, it's it's also not a coincidence that he is where he is right now.
00:51:16.559 -->
00:51:16.719Right.
00:51:16.960 -->
00:51:21.599Um and um uh for us it all started with data, right?
00:51:21.679 -->
00:51:37.039When we when we built this up, um when we build up this relationship, the first thing we kind of tackled is really give everything to a pretty hardcore data team that we have back in Germany, which is one of our, I think, biggest core strength of VNR.
00:51:37.280 -->
00:51:52.719Um and um that that data team is is big and it's it's uh um uh it's not cheap and it's not uh it's very skilled individuals uh that can do um fantastic things for your business, right?
00:51:53.039 -->
00:52:02.320So creating a platform of truth for your business where everything is in, it's it's all consolidated, it's all cleaned up, like everything is very neat.
00:52:02.400 -->
00:52:08.159It's not a kind of like a patchwork of how so many businesses are set up with a guru organically over years.
00:52:08.320 -->
00:52:18.320Oh, yeah, you have a data set here in Salesforce, and then there's another one here, and then you have some ESPs, and nothing really talks to each other, and you kind of like pick your data from all these different sources.
00:52:18.480 -->
00:52:23.519No, consolidate it everything in one platform and then start decision making based on that.
00:52:23.599 -->
00:52:25.679And everything else builds on that, right?
00:52:25.840 -->
00:52:27.199That is what you want, right?
00:52:27.280 -->
00:52:30.719And that's what that's that's what you um that's what we did.
00:52:31.039 -->
00:52:48.000Um and recently, again, with AI, I think we started to add new resources to our company that um are a different breed of tech employees that probably haven't existed like that before.
00:52:48.159 -->
00:52:51.199Um, because you would say, oh, you have your dev team, right?
00:52:51.280 -->
00:52:59.039And there's not typically people that are not as savvy with the business decisions behind everything, that don't like intuitively get.
00:52:59.360 -->
00:53:06.320They always need somebody to to translate or give them like requirements for we want this tool.
00:53:06.480 -->
00:53:12.639You can't have the the um you can't have the marketing manager talk to them because they won't speak the same language, right?
00:53:12.880 -->
00:53:14.320So you need somebody in the middle.
00:53:14.480 -->
00:53:52.000Um, but we start to hire um and work with these uh these people that are really young, savvy, hungry guys that just fully embraced um uh the whole palette of uh AI coding out there, um, and um are able to get requirements from a business because they're actually interested in like how the business works and how the business develops and can then transform transform them into tools much quicker because they answer all these questions themselves and they the why behind a tool, why would that tool be needed, right?
00:53:52.159 -->
00:53:56.400They can answer that for themselves, and so they can produce something like much quicker.
00:53:56.719 -->
00:54:03.519Also moved into something where now somebody like a guru or an analyst is basically building their own tools.
00:54:03.679 -->
00:54:05.920We use something like Raplet, for example, right?
00:54:06.000 -->
00:54:07.920Um I think a lot of people are using it.
00:54:08.079 -->
00:54:23.280Now a guru can start to build their own tool and kind of like fake code it themselves and build it like how they wanted to use it, and then that gets passed on to exactly these kind of guys who understand a lot about the business and can then harden that and build into the real tool.
00:54:23.360 -->
00:54:29.440And then Dave's team makes sure that the right data is connected to it, that reporting is uh correct and all of that, right?
00:54:29.760 -->
00:54:48.320So it's um it's almost like moving these worlds closer together, taking out this kind of like invisible wall between marketing and deaf by making the new devs a person that is actually much closer to um to the business than it ever been before, right?
00:54:49.119 -->
00:54:53.039Entrepreneurs, basically, developing entrepreneurs, maybe you can call them.
00:54:53.280 -->
00:54:56.639And that have that's what we're looking for, and that's what we're hiring, right?
00:54:56.719 -->
00:54:58.480Um how are you recruiting them?
00:54:59.360 -->
00:55:04.800So um, you know, again, uh uh is this uh this is one of the things that Morgan does so well, right?
00:55:04.960 -->
00:55:12.559I think the first person that we found in that, you know, I think Morgan just like put out a couple of projects on uh platforms that we said, hey, I want to develop this tool.
00:55:12.639 -->
00:55:15.199Like I need somebody to help me vibe code that, right?
00:55:15.360 -->
00:55:22.480So now suddenly this uh uh gentleman from uh from Norway uh reaches out and say, Hey, you know, I'm I'm I I can do it, right?
00:55:22.639 -->
00:55:31.519And I think the way he did it, like that person did it, he just developed the tool, right, and sent it to Morgan to say, Hey, I did it here, before without taking money or anything, right?
00:55:31.599 -->
00:55:33.119It's just like I'm done here.
00:55:33.760 -->
00:55:36.960And so um I think I can recommend that to everybody.
00:55:37.039 -->
00:55:51.280Like put out, like you want a tool for something, put it on one of these platforms, and just and I guess you have to kiss a bunch of frogs, you know, just because you know, and it just has to be good to identify who actually does a great job at it, right?
00:55:51.360 -->
00:55:53.920Or is just looking to make just a quick bug.
00:55:54.480 -->
00:55:55.840Um that's how we find them.
00:55:55.920 -->
00:55:58.719And then it becomes kind of like they have a network of people.
00:55:58.880 -->
00:56:00.880Now they start to trust us as a business.
00:56:01.039 -->
00:56:06.719So now we work with, you know, we have our uh Norwegian uh our Norwegian crew, like uh three of them.
00:56:06.800 -->
00:56:14.960And they're you know, we invite them here, they come here to Florida, and we um you know work closely with them together at a workshop just like uh last week with one of them here.
00:56:15.119 -->
00:56:24.239And um that that's that's the progress we we we get out of like a like a cool idea, you know, that now translate into something very fundamental for the business.
00:56:24.320 -->
00:56:24.480Yeah.
00:56:24.800 -->
00:56:25.440That's awesome.
00:56:25.599 -->
00:56:26.079I love that.
00:56:26.159 -->
00:56:26.960That's fantastic.
00:56:27.760 -->
00:56:28.239Cool.
00:56:28.559 -->
00:56:29.360Well, I appreciate it.
00:56:29.440 -->
00:56:32.000This is this has been a fantastic conversation, Nicholas.
00:56:32.079 -->
00:56:33.280This this is awesome.
00:56:33.440 -->
00:56:42.239Um I love I love seeing what you guys are doing, and I love like kind of this perspective of kind of what's underneath the hood and how how how it's all kind of come together.
00:56:42.400 -->
00:56:44.079So I appreciate you coming on here and doing this.
00:56:44.159 -->
00:56:45.199This has been fantastic.
00:56:45.360 -->
00:56:46.000Thank you.
00:56:46.400 -->
00:56:47.199No, I'll love it.
00:56:47.280 -->
00:56:47.519Thank you.
00:56:47.599 -->
00:56:49.360Um thank you for having me.
00:56:49.840 -->
00:56:50.159Yeah.
00:56:50.320 -->
00:56:52.000And uh hopefully we'll do more of these.
00:56:52.159 -->
00:57:03.360And actually, for anyone who's an FMS pro member, VNR, you mentioned you know, in Germany, um, is actually hosting one of our in-person roundtables um there in October in Bonn, Germany.
00:57:03.440 -->
00:57:06.639So we're gonna be heading out to Germany, uh, which will be a lot of fun.
00:57:06.719 -->
00:57:08.400I don't know if you're gonna make it or not.
00:57:08.559 -->
00:57:12.880Um if you can if you can leave the the beaches of Florida or if you're planning to do that.
00:57:13.039 -->
00:57:14.239I will I will be there for sure.
00:57:14.320 -->
00:57:20.480You know, and um, you know, I lived in Bonn for many years, so whoever whoever's around, you know, I'll show you the best places in the town.
00:57:20.559 -->
00:57:22.480Uh, and uh, you know, we can have great conversation.
00:57:22.559 -->
00:57:25.119I think it's you know, please, please take John upon this.
00:57:25.199 -->
00:57:29.760You know, I I remember the the London events uh you guys had, it was it were fantastic, you know.
00:57:29.840 -->
00:57:32.320I think I highly encourage everybody to join, really.
00:57:32.800 -->
00:57:33.599Yeah, thanks.
00:57:33.679 -->
00:57:35.760And so um, yeah, I'm looking forward to this one.
00:57:35.840 -->
00:57:37.199So can't wait to do that.
00:57:37.360 -->
00:57:40.559Um, thanks again, Nicholas, um, and have a great one.
00:57:40.639 -->
00:57:41.119Thank you.
00:57:41.440 -->
00:57:42.320Thank you, John.
