Andie James: Hello and welcome to First Encounter. I am Andie James, a historical romance enthusiast and author. And I am very excited for today's episode because my guest is one of my dear friends, Sri Savita. she's also a historical romance author. you may or may not know her book. I hope you do. She has one novella out. It's called The Deed with the Duke. It's fantastic because she writes Regency set books centering on Indian characters, which I love because we just need more representation and they're fantastic. so I'm so excited to be joined by Sri today. we are discussing Devilish by Jo Beverley because Sri talks this book up all the time. And I was like, Well, if you love it this much, we gotta talk about it on the podcast because I've never read Jo Beverley. So this will be totally new to me. And I wanna know why you enjoy this book so much, because I trust Sri's taste and you know, she's she's just great. So welcome, Sri. I just like rambled on and on. You're so welcome. Yeah.
Sri: Thank you for having me here. I'm so excited. I love chatting with you and I'm really excited about this book.
Andie James: And another point that I'm gonna mention because I think it is going to be relevant to our discussion of Devilish, is Sri is a psychology professor. That is her day job outside of writing romance. and so she's really good at getting to the depths of her characters and the thought process and what's behind the emotions and the feelings and all of that. And I think That's part of the reason she really enjoyed this book. And I know we're gonna get into some of the underlying stuff when we discuss it. So just pointing that out to say that she knows of what she talks about when we're gonna get into gender dynamics, power dynamics, all those great things.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: Well, thank you again so much for joining me. I'm very excited to chat with you. before we dive into discussing the book, which I hope some of you Have had a chance to read. And if not, hopefully this conversation will make you want to read it. but spoilers ahead, you always know that we're going to discuss this book. So if you don't want to be spoiled, go read it and then come listen. but anyways, I digress. Before we get into the book, I want to talk a little bit more about Sri because, like I said, I think she's a fantastic writer. I d I do again, I'll just hold this up again because yay. So The Deed with the Duke is her book that is out. It's fantastic. It's a novella, but it's a hefty novella. and it's just, again, the characters, the emotion. She's so good at this. But you have an upcoming project. releasing October 9th. this was just recently announced, but our other friend, author Katherine Grant, Who hosts the Historical Romance Sampler Podcast She's been on here before. Hopefully, you guys are familiar with Katherine. But Katherine has created this wonderful world in her own novels called Northfield Hall. She has lots of books associated with it. So it's just it's she's created this wonderful setting that I won't go into much. My episode with Katherine, we discussed it all. follows the Preston family, which runs this estate, Northfield Hall, that's very open and progressive and has people working there from all backgrounds, all classes as part of the estate. and so she, from what I understand, I'll let Sri take this over in a minute, but Katherine organized this project. It's an anthology coming out that looks at holidays at Northfield Hall and Sri has written one of the contributions to this anthology. Diwali with
Sri: It's hard.
Andie James: her duke. and I was lucky enough to get to read this early, and you guys it is so fantastic. So, Sri, why don't you tell us a bit more about about this anthology project and your contribution to it.
Sri: Yeah, so I was kind of casually talking with Katherine, I think, you know, prior to the release of the Deed with the Duke, because I'm writing a family series and so that book came out first. It would actually be book two in the series because this Diwali book is going to be the parents' story. So that's book one. and at the time, you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to expand you know, from Raaz's character or Camellia's character and like what I was going to do with that story, because that book came out in a another multi author collab, but we were already across different shops. So I was just kind of chatting with Katherine about, you know, just the nerves of being someone that had a debut, being someone that you know, you look around and I don't see a lot of books or characters like mine. And so I sort of take that to mean there's not a want or a need for these stories. And so I was kind of, you know, just spiraling. No, no, of course not.
Andie James: Not true.
Sri: so Katherine was, you know, just really great about reassuring me that there was a place for these stories and that, you know, I'm I'm doing something that is interesting. I'm doing it well. And you know, I had mentioned that it's hard to kind of get into some of these like holiday collaborations because a lot of them center on Christmas. And,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know, my characters are sort of in an interesting place because a lot of them are born and raised in England. And that I think is interesting to me because it's true for my own story, right? Like I was born in the United States. and I think that that's you know, presents a different complexity to think about your identity. As an Indian person, what are your connections to India? What are your connections to, you know, maybe your parents if they've immigrated here, the languages, and then also being, you know, rooted to England in a way where you didn't have to assimilate as much because you were born there. and
Andie James: Right.
Sri: y and you know, there's more to then talk about with the characters who had to do that. So Camilla's working class and she did come from India. and so I had mentioned that, you know, if I were gonna do a holiday story, I might do one about Diwali because I haven't seen one in Historical romance. it was a little daunting to think about how I would fit those traditions and cultural elements into Regency England. I think for a lot of my stories, they do tend to be very deeply character driven because the the thing that I'm trying to focus on is bringing forward those elements that are there in the society. And you know, Courtney Milan has talked about how there's all these textiles, there's tea, there's all these imports that are from India, but the people themselves are not centered and in the focus. And so what I do is say that these things are already here. It's possible for them to be celebrating Diwali. They have
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: the elements needed to do some of these traditions. So that was something that, you know, I had just sort of said as a passing comment. And then Katherine came back to me a little later saying that she was thinking about doing this holiday at Northfield Hall idea. And she wanted to incorporate multiple authors to talk about different holidays. So not just, you know, one story, not just about
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: one holiday. And to bring in some of that diversity because it really suits like the world that she's already created and the values of her characters.
Andie James: Right.
Sri: So that was so meaningful to say, you know, because Katherine's kind of the first person that I knew in historical romance. And for her to not only, you know, validate what I'm doing and the kinds of things that I care about in my writing and in my stories, but to also create a space for me to be able to write this story that was something that, you know, was daunting because I haven't seen something like this before, you know, would it fit? Would it be something that people want? And for her to say that like, yeah, there's a space for this to shine. And I, you know, I couldn't stop thinking about the fact that you had mentioned that you might want to write a Diwali story. So That's kind of what you know the conversation started as. And then she said that she was gonna bring some other authors on board. our friend Isabella Kamal is also writing
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: she's actually writing a couple stories in the anthology. So one is on Valentine's Day and then one is on Eid. So that is just super special and awesome to be part of a you know a an idea like this that you know just just gives you that space to say. Yes, it's fiction, but sometimes it feels so dire. It feels like, you know, this is a degree of believability that readers can't extend, right? And that's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: not true. And I think I think that's why, like I said, with a lot of my books, I focus a lot on the characters because the the main thrust of what I'm trying to do is show that there is a way for their cultural practices, you know, their day-to-day lives that fit into this world, I need to spend time showing that, right? So that's what I'm gonna
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: center. I'm not necessarily focusing on huge external plots, which is kind of different than why I enjoy Devilish There's a lot of like espionage and, you know, things like that happening there in court politics. So,
Andie James: There is, yeah.
Sri: you know, that's not necessarily the kind of thing that I'm doing, and especially with this family series. A lot of it is really just coming to terms with, you know, their Who they are in the world that they move in. And you know, to sort of like plug why Devilish speaks to me so much is because I think I've just sort of, you know, branding is like an evolving thing for a lot of authors. And I think for me, you know, my characters do really try to figure out what their sense of power and control means. Because I think those things are so fascinating to me, because as a person of color, as someone that is unrepresented in a lot of spaces in historical romance, my characters too. I think it's something that is at the forefront of your mind in some way, maybe not in an explicit, obvious way, but you do move through the world in a way where you're told very early on you'll have to work twice as hard to go half as far or whatever
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: it is. So I think that those themes about power and control are really about just taking up space in the world. And like in the authors note for Deed with the Duke, I say that it shouldn't be a hard stretch for people to see characters like mine in this world. but sometimes I'm walking alongside the path that history took because they have to carve out their own space. And that is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to research the jewelry, the clothing, the, you know,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: the foods and try to fit those things in. I was just reading about, you know, actually, we were talking about your novella, and you mentioned like in the section that we were reading, you know, the character was menu planning and talking about potatoes and peas. And I was like, you know what? Alumatter has potatoes and peas. Like I could work this in in a way where like the ingredients literally are already there. It's just a matter of, you know, emphasizing that in a way where I'm saying, hey, look, this is Indian, but it fits with the world. So that's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: what I did. I have a character thinking about like how great would it be if I updated the French fare to include some Indian things. And that's in in the next siblings book within this series. So, you know, there's things like that where it's it's a little difficult because then I'm right from a degree of like, you know, I am not someone that's well, living in England and obviously not during the Regency era, but I think some of those like challenges
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: of like bringing some of this forward in a way where and I think also with holiday stories, you know, some of those feel-good moments and things like that, we've talked about this. I think sometimes like you really do just have to tell yourself, like, readers love the cheese, cringe doesn't exist.
Andie James: yeah.
Sri: Because I tend to hold myself back a lot because one of the hardest things, as much as I enjoy drafting, is that There's so much of me wrapped up in what I'm doing, it really does feel like I'm on trial in some sort of way. And especially with the way that people care so much, you know, about historical accuracy, that's another level of worry or fear that comes into the writing process. So That's why I like internal turmoil. I have a lot of it. My characters have a lot of it.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And I think that, you know, the angst is warranted. I love manufactured melodramas. So like I don't want, you know I do have themes of grief because of my own personal experience as a writer and I think know that's sort of woven into especially the Diwali story and for the next book as well and you know Raaz's father has passed that point my father passed recently and so you know I think I think that's there but that's not necessarily that kind of heavy angst where you know it's like literally life or death is not the kind of angst that I enjoy so much as like it's this idea of shedding control. I do think in romantic relationships there is going to be an exchange of power. Whether you want to talk
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: about it as power dynamics or not, because I think power dynamics gets kind of an ugly rap. It's not always about coercion, it's not always about manipulation. My characters do some of that, and I think that's human. I think people are going to do things that are not nice to people they care about, too. or, you know, they're gonna
Andie James: Yes. Yeah.
Sri: lash out because they're trying to protect themselves. And so that's the thing that's interesting to me, is really this like. This anguish about what are you willing to give up or let go of? Because you have to recognize that in order to have the kind emotional connection that you want, the mutually satisfying physical intimacy that you want, there's a degree of having to let go of something. Like you have to set aside your ego, you have to make yourself vulnerable and share something honest and real. You know, admit when you've done something wrong. And those are things that are hard to do for anyone. and so that's why I think that power is kind of inherent to romance, to human behavior. I think
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: my characters are searching for what degree of control they can have in their lives, and of course, romance is gonna kind of threaten that for them, so they really have to figure out like how
Andie James: Right.
Sri: how do I establish my sense of of power. While still getting the connection that I want, getting that happily ever after can you have all of those things? What you have to give up and what feels like a sacrifice, what feels like you know, a change, right? Because that's the the struggle, is like some costs for change are gonna be too high. And when do you feel like, okay, that's the line for me, or I'm willing to make that sacrifice?
Andie James: Right. What are your like kind of set boundaries and what can you
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: adapt and what can you not?
Sri: Yeah. And again, I think that's it's so wonderful to see that. I think historical romance does it really well and also Devilish because you know there's a lot of discussion about, especially women, like what the power is that you can have, especially
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: when you have a society that has so many boundaries and limitations. Like that's what I think is so interesting about writing historical romance,
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: Regency, you know, societies where there is a lot of rules and structure, but I don't want my characters to be limited by that. I want them to overcome it in some way. And that's the story.
Andie James: To examine it and to yeah.
Sri: Exactly. And that's the story. Yeah.
Andie James: For sure. Well, again, I mean, if that wasn't enough to convince you that Sri really thinks deeply about her characters and what she's writing, you really should check out her projects. So The Deed with the Duke is out now. You can find this in Kindle Unlimited and other places. and the upcoming anthology, The Holidays at Northfield Hall, that is releasing October ninth. I am going to put links in show notes on like where you can access that. And it's five total novella length stories in one volume, written by Sri, our friend Isabella Kamal, Katherine Grant, and Charlie Lane. So it's gonna be fantastic. I'm very excited for it. Like I said, I have read Diwali with Her Duke, and it is so good, you guys. It's so good.
Sri: It was it was such a great and and we can definitely talk about the characters and things like that too. It was such an interesting and fun experience to be able to write within Katherine's world and to sort of see how we
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: were gonna map out these holidays. I think it's gonna be a really unique, fun offering as far as holiday stories and anthologies go. So I'm hoping people like it.
Andie James: It is unique and I love it. And I love that it encompasses multiple holidays. It's not just the standard ones. Like I I honestly I was trying to organize something like this myself where we could talk about like someone's gonna write a winter solstice story, someone's gonna write like you know, but then it kind of fell apart and that's fine. You know these things happen.
Sri: Yeah. Yeah. Things happen.
Andie James: but I just I love that idea of focusing on on more and Katherine's the the world she set up at Northfield Hall is such a perfect setting for it. So I'll link
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: to to the conversation I had with Katherine so you can learn more about that series and the Prestons and kind of 'cause it's really fantastic and more people should see the episode I did with Katherine. so Sri, before we dive into Devilish, you've already hit at some great themes and things that we want to talk about. But I wanna know a little bit more broadly about how you got into reading romance and liking romance and then how you decided you wanted to write it.
Sri: Yeah, it's an interesting sort of journey when I look back on it too. not it wasn't, you know, that long ago that this started. It was 2020 my sister
Andie James: Same.
Sri: From cancer in February. And you know, grief is a very hard time. It's not a linear journey. And I found a lot of comfort in books. And you know, prior to that, that was probably like my second year as a faculty member. You know, there was grad school while you're dissertating and doing the master's and PhD. I wasn't reading a lot for fun. I definitely wasn't writing a lot for fun.
Andie James: No.
Sri: I wanted to stay connected to some of my roots, and I actually came to fiction to writing fiction through writing poetry. And so I got involved with my grad school's lit journal as poetry editor and then editor-in-chief. But it sort of stayed connected to that world. and my sister was the one who was always kind of encouraging me to get back into reading. She's You should try audiobooks, which I now love, because she's like, that's a way that you can fade it into you know your chores
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: or whatever it might be. And so I had sort of returned to reading because it was something that was a comfort. You know, we had more time to be able to get back into things during the pandemic. I was thinking of my sister and how she was kind of encouraging me to get back into reading. And like I had sort of gotten into some things in December of 2020. So like right before she had passed. But I was rediscovering what I still liked. I'm like, what do I still like reading? Like, and so I was going back to things that I had read when I was younger that I liked. things weren't necessarily hitting the same way and I felt like, am I just not gonna find a book that I like? And then I was and so then I got into I think I was doing romance before I started reading it. So I got into romance and I was like, here we go. Like this is the high octane, you know, feeling that I want.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And I think I always describe it as like this is kind of weird, but I think about it as like you're seeing the world through like a fly's eyes, like everything is so heightened. Like I love the tension of like those little things, you know, those little gestures, those things that people aren't saying. Like all that stuff is psychologically interesting. And just like, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Andie James: The Darcy Hand flex, it's the perfect metaphor for all of it. Or not metaphor, but you know, it just it encapsulates. I mean it's it's a visual rather than what we love in a book, but it just it's everything about what we love.
Sri: Yes. Yeah, it's everything. And I think I think those are the things that I was really craving. Like I just love sort of those like small gestures that are big things, those things that are like so heightened. Like again, that internal angst around, you know, it's it's just very human behavior. And I wasn't, I think romance really does that better than other genres. Like you get so up close and personal with each character, especially if you've got dual POV. I don't feel like you really attach to the characters in the same way. Well certainly I don't necessarily feel like that with like literary Fiction. I think with other like genre fiction, you can definitely find that. Because I also started reading fantasy and romantasy at the time. And I think that's how I kind of found my way to historical. Because, you know, I do love contemporary romance. I think I actually started in that space thinking about what I wanted to write. Because I didn't think that I Would be welcome historical. So that was a big thing too, because I was reading a lot of historical. And as I said, my background is in poetry. The kind of prose that I like to write, the kind of melodrama, the kind of angst, the kind of turmoil. Historical is just such a beautiful playground for that. And I don't
Andie James: It's so great. Yeah.
Sri: I don't get the same sense of being able to run free with all of that. In other genres. And so I was like, you know, working on my contemporary stories, which you know I may go back to at some point, who knows? But I was longing to write historical. And so I think that, you know, I started a book which I have finished. This is the one that I talked to you about. It's a pirate heroine, smuggler hero, and I will return to that at some point.
Andie James: I mean it's hot pirate summer, so I mean, you know
Sri: Yeah, exactly. It was a it was a great training ground to kind of do the kinds of things I wanted, to have a little bit more of like a secondary, you know, mystery sort of plot and practice those kinds of things. and I just really loved it. And again, I was having those conversations with Katherine about like, you know, should I take this sleep? Like, should I do this? Because it's
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: I I don't know how. I mean, I get that people understand that releasing a book is scary, but like the amount of fear that I felt, like the amount of spiraling like before the Deed with the Do came out, is so different because I really felt like this is a larger issue, and I've talked about this with that book That it's taken a lot of time, I think, for me, for media representation, we're still not quite there to accept that. you can have romantic leads that are people of color. And especially
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: we don't see that a lot with Asian or Indian people. We don't see that a lot with Asian men. And for me to be able to write about characters who share some elements of my identity, who you know find the things that make them Indian attractive about each other, that's something that's super meaningful. Like Katherine, you know, I stay out of reading my reviews there was a reader who had said, like, this was so meaningful to me to see that characters like me were talking about these features and appreciating that in each other. And this is something I talked to you about because you know, if we get a chance to get into that in Devilish, there's a character who I think it's worth talking about. The fact that, you know, I think we're in in a time now where people can be and should be more careful in how they're talking about representation, especially if they're not
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: writing about their own ideas. identity. but
Andie James: yeah, for sure.
Sri: you know I one of the things that I make a point to do, of course, I love, you know, these romantic descriptions of like, you know, brown eyes, like drinking chocolate. I use it myself too. But when I'm talking
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: about skin, there will be times where I say brown. Because I don't commoditize brown skin. And I also want to say that that's enough. Like that's enough of a modifier. Like that my characters are brown. There's a lot of this like You know, joke about like whenever I'm reading romance, I just sub in, like, insert whatever actor they really like or whatever it is. And I'm like, you better
Andie James: Right. Right.
Sri: not be doing that with my books. Like my characters are brown. They are Indian. They're going that's gonna be like super emphasized in what I'm doing, which is why I focus so much on the characters. Like, and you know, anyway, that that's just a lot of stuff to say that I think that you know that. That was part of my hesitation for way as long as I did before I got into writing romance and specifically writing historical romance.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And then like I said, this collab opportunity for The Deed with the Duke came up. And that was through an editor I was working with for other work, because I also have a background in writing Erotica. And so, you know, we were talking about this collaboration that she wanted to do. And I decided, okay, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take the chance to do this for this this one book. Who knows? Like we'll see how that lands. It I didn't I didn't have
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: a plan for a series at all at that point. and then I started thinking about like, well, maybe I should think about this just in case. And then that's you know where things really took off. I thought about, okay, well. What's the story with Raaz's father? Because you know, at the beginning, he's sort of dealing with his own grief. And then, you know, thinking about his siblings for the rest of the series, and then thinking about his parents when we had this discussion. Actually, at that point, I was talking to my editor for The Deed with the Duke, and I had mentioned Katherine had already talked to me about this idea, and she was the one who said, Well, what if you wrote it about? Raaz's father. And that was really what opened up that idea for me. So, all this to say, I kind of came to romance because you know, I came to fiction first because I was trying to reconnect with something me and my sister shared. Like seeing the way that authors depict grief is comforting because you kind of can work through some of your things on the page, especially in romance. I think I can put up with more of that emotional torture because you know you're gonna be okay in the end, right? You're gonna be taken care of. And I think exactly, exactly.
Andie James: Right. Right. You can put through it because they'll be a happy ending.
Sri: And that's what I like doing too. I'm like, yes, I will give you the angst because I know. I'm gonna take care of you at the end. So, and that's also something with my journey where I think because I love to sort of like really turn the the keys on that angst, you know, it It can be daunting to figure out how I'm going to give them an ending that like really sails them over the top here and stuff. So that's like an interesting challenge too. But I think in romance I was seeing that, you know, first I think was more on the fantasy side. It's like reading about like Death Dragons easier than reading about like death by cancer. but in historical, it's a genre where you know there's no shortage of dead fathers or dead siblings, but
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: It has also been cathartic and and healing to, and that's what I kept saying, you know, because I came to Bookstagram thinking like I'm just gonna read and I'm reading to heal, and then I was writing to heal. And so, like, I think seeing this mirror for things that I was feeling in the characters, I mean, we know that that's why we love to read, right? That human connection. So I just really fell back in love with it, and I'm so thankful that that like that spark of reading, that sparking. Of writing, like waited until I was ready to return to it. And I just feel so
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: grateful for that. That's like one of my whys that I come back to when I'm like, God, why do I have to keep editing right now? Or something, you know, like, so
Andie James: Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
Sri: yeah, that's a very like windy journey. But yeah, sometimes I'm like, I can't believe I waited so long to put out my first historical. But I'm so glad I I did because now, you know, I I see myself writing it for a long time and hopefully people want to keep reading it for a long time.
Andie James: And I hope you are because I love your writing and I think we do need your characters and we need more representation. But well let's talk about the actual book that we're here to discuss. I mean not that I don't want to talk about you, but so I had heard you mention, so Sri I I don't even know honestly how We became friends. It was just, you know, authors chatting in the historical romance space.
Sri: Those are like the best friendships where like I'm like, I actually can't remember when like you weren't in my life and we weren't friends, you know?
Andie James: I I d I don't know. I just, you know, in the last three years as I've entered kind of this world of historical romance and connected with other authors, you just you meet people in different ways. And it's so funny because I feel like a lot of my closest friends now I've never met in person because we just exist in this world through videos like this and whatever. But so Sri is also part of my writing group now and so I don't know. But I'd heard you mention this book a few times. And I remember it was a couple months ago or something, and you were talking about rereading it for just like a comfort reread. And I was like, you keep talking about this book. So we need to talk about it on the podcast. So I think I know, having read it now and knowing you, why this book is something that you love so much. But can you just tell us a little bit about like what is it that keeps bringing you back to this book?
Sri: Yeah, so there's a few different things. I think that given the two lead characters' positions and status in society, so Diana's a countess in her own right.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: and Bey is, you know, he has this like really like shadowy, like mythical almost persona.
Andie James: Well let's I sorry, I just told you to tell us why you like it, but maybe we should do a brief synopsis first. So people are like, what the heck are we talking
Sri: Yeah yeah yeah we can do that. We can do that.
Andie James: about? So you know this book better than I do, but I'm gonna try to summarize this a little bit. so Devilish, it's actually the final book in a series about the Malloren family.
Sri: So it's in the middle. She Jo Beverley has Mallorens and Friends, which is her whole series. And again, I love family series. Obviously, I'm like writing one of them. but there's like I think it's 13 books. I have a couple left to read. The first five
Andie James: see the way I saw it broken down our website was she had this in a group of five that was like the siblings. So this is the last in that group. And then it goes on to like include other people connected with the family. Okay. So
Sri: Yes, she has the siblings first. Yes. And then she moves into like the and friends. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Andie James: but yeah, so it's it's this whole kind of world she created around this family, the Mallorens. And Bey, our main character, short for Beowulf, which I love.
Sri: I know. I know. It's so dramatic. I y that's one of the reasons I love it.
Andie James: It's so dramatic. yes. So he is a Marquess and I wow, I'm blanking on his actual title right now because they don't say it Rothgar. Thank you. Yes, he's
Sri: Lord Rothgar. So mm-hmm.
Andie James: the Marquess of Rothgar. and the it's you know, w obviously we're kinda getting the you know, when they introduce the family, I can tell that we've already like seen their stories and how they've fallen in love, but it does make me interested to kind of go back and see the way that he is portrayed in those books because he's very
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: much this like the backbone of the family, right? And helping Yeah.
Sri: And she's written it that way. Like in her in her author's note, I think she says that like you see his story or like you see him present in all of those siblings
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: stories. And so, you know, and you also see that throughout the rest of the series too in the other books that I've read too. Like he's always kind of pulling the strings, you know, behind the curtain.
Andie James: Yeah. Yes. He is the Marquess. He's the one who needs to be in control. Like Sri mentioned power a lot because we're gonna talk about power and control. but so he he's our main lead, and then our our female main character, his his co lead, Diana. as Sri just mentioned, she is a countess in her own right. So she is one of those kind of rare instances where as a female she was able to inherit because there was not a male. she was the only child, there was not a male child. and so she inherited the title when her father died. so she's a woman with a lot of power. And the reason this book works, and the reason I like all the dynamics, is because like the conflict is essentially that they have both said that they're never gonna marry for different reasons, but that's like super legit. So for Diana, it's
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: like if she marries, like yeah, she still technically is the countess, but because of we know how the the world worked at the time, like essentially her husband would then really be the one in control, right?
Sri: Yeah. Yeah, she has a great line where she's talking to Beys' sister, and I I put this in my notes of like things I liked. and you know, Bey's sister is like, Well, if you marry, like you'll still be the countess. And she's like, But I wouldn't be the Lord. And so she's very aware of the fact that and you know,
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: and this is mentioned in her point of view chapters and Bey's as well, that like You know, we've I think we've talked about things like the marriage acting culture, like under the law, the husband and wife are one person and that person is the husband. And so
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: she really is cautious about even just, you know, as we'll get into like her explorations around like still having desire and and interest in physical relations and things like that. Yeah.
Andie James: Yes. Yes. So she's determined never to marry because she wants to keep the control and take care of her people and just all very legit reason, right? I should also say that this book takes place in like seventeen sixties sometime. So
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and it was written in two thousand. So I
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: think that's important because there's a few problematic things, but I also think it's very progressive for its time.
Sri: I agree too. And that's something that really spoke as well. Like I said, I think when I was talking
Andie James: Yeah. So we'll talk about
Sri: about, there are definitely some problematic things, but a lot of the
Andie James: There are.
Sri: like really frank discussions are, you know, just refreshing because I'm like, these are themes that like I still am thinking about, you know, for better, for
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: worse.
Andie James: But it's very, I think, progressive in the way that it engages looking at really just kind of these ideas of desire and kind of possessing your sexuality, I guess, and also consent, which we'll talk about as well. But but yeah, so it's 1760s. and because Bey is kind of powerful, he really has an important role in the king's court, which is important. And this is the king and queen that we see in Bridgerton. Okay. So just
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: I don't know if that helps or not, but and this is it's also important that this is just kinda after one of the many conflicts that England's had with France that has just been resolved.
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: But it's prior to the French Revolution, it's prior to the American Revolution. Okay. So we're just we're on the brink of that, but it hasn't happened yet. but Bey Rothgar, he Yes.
Sri: Sorry, I just wanted interject too. I think like a big part of this, and we'll get to dissecting Bey's character, but you know, the the fact that he's sort of the lead of his family, like with his younger siblings, and then the way that he also manages the king, because the king is younger
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: than him, is really interesting to me. again, like he has a lot of power, but there's he likes to shield a lot of that. Like he is not someone that needs to put all this on display. Like he's not you know, rakish in the ways where you might see somebody that's really clamoring for attention. And and that sort of like icy needing to keep everything controlled kind of thing is what I think is really compelling about his character.
Andie James: Yeah, it's interesting. But his reason for never wanting to marry, even though he is a Marques, he needs to, you know, worry about errors and passing on the family line and all of that. but he when he was young, so all his siblings, he has four siblings who were married in the previous books, and we meet them all in this book, they all come from a different mother. So and it sounds like she was a pretty wonderful woman. She's since deceased, but but she but Bey's mother had Bey and then had another child. He had a little sister, and she went mad. She went a little nuts and she ended up killing his little sister and he witnessed it.
Sri: Just in interjection to say, like, I don't think this is, you know, covered in the book as much, but it's another way where I think like, you know, it's interesting to think about how things like postpartum depression and you
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: know the stress of motherhood are I don't think Jo Beverley touches on it a ton with his mother, or at least in that kind of language. But it does show up, you know, in other books as well through the series. And, you know, it's something he grapples with and other people in his family because it, you know, really changed the course of their family. But I find that interesting too. Like I think that she, you know, is bringing up something that's worth discussing. And I don't know that I've seen a
Andie James: Yes, for sure.
Sri: ton of that in historical romance, but I would love to, you know.
Andie James: Yeah. and so then I don't remember I think she then kills herself too. I don't remember if it said, but I know she she she she kills the baby. She kills the baby and then she dies. And so and
Sri: Yes, yes, yeah, yes.
Andie James: he he like witnessed this. He was like five and
Sri: I think it was also like there was a th it was like scarlet fever or something, right? 'Cause there his like his parents and then, you know, he was me he was supposed
Andie James: maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: to like stay away and that also like ate at his conscience too that he couldn't like go and save people. And his broth his other brother was sick as well, brand.
Andie James: Yeah. So this has yeah, this has hugely shaped him, obviously. Like huge early life trauma. but he
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: is just determined that he will not have a child because he doesn't wanna have any chance of passing on mental illness to to any child. He does not want that to continue. And so he's relying on his brother and his brother's child to then take on. the title. and he's just adamant. He will never marry. He will never have children. and so it's they're very legit reasons that they both have for not wanting to marry. but then there's it gets really complicated really quick because of gender dynamics, power dynamics. She had petitioned the king to be able to take up her family seat in Parliament and the House of Lords and he was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're a woman like and basically like kind of saw it as you're stepping out of your place and
Sri: Yeah. And she recognized herself in a
Andie James: we need to get you married and so it
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: gets really complicated really fast. There's also people trying to kill Bey because of his influence with the king, has to do with it's really complicated, but it gets into the dynamics again between England and France and trying
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: to see what was all going on there. but basically that's our setup. And then they end up getting kind of being forced to work together. she
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: has to go meet the king. He wants her to get married, she's trying to find ways to avoid it. Bey's trying to help her, and he essentially has said, like, if you really can't get out of this, I'll marry you because I'll kind of
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: let you be as much as possible. But this is gonna be a marriage and name only. The problem is they're wildly attracted to each other,
Sri: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andie James: and she's very much like I'm kinda like all my friends are getting married and all that like and I'm very
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: attracted to this man and I have these desires and I wanna know what physical
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and romantic love is all about and
Sri: And she knows enough about him to say like he's I mean he's a threat to her, like in a way like your crush might be a threat to you. But she is really drawn to the fact that like he has no need to take what I have and he's gonna let me have what I have. And I find
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: that kind of like that initial just respect and being able to say, like, I see you as an equal is so I mean it's attractive to me. Like I I like that that they see
Andie James: It is a practice.
Sri: They see each other. I I agree. I'm like, yeah, I want to be
Andie James: In today's present time. Yeah.
Sri: seen as competent in my own life. Like that's amazing. And at for that time it was amazing too. So that's something that like really speaks to what I like to see in romance.
Andie James: So, anyways, that's a brief synopsis about some of the main points. I mean, we could go on and on because there's a lot
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: in this book. I will say, I told Sri this. We've been emailing. I did really enjoy this book. I see why she loves it. I love a lot of the the themes that it touches on, the the the power dynamics, the commentary on gender, all these pieces. But for some reason, it just didn't all I didn't love it. I didn't not like it. I love what it's doing. But for some reason I just didn't finish the book and be like, I love this book. And I'm I'm still figuring out why. I think part of it a little bit was pacing. I'm not gonna lie.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: it it dragged in the middle for me. but I, you know, and there was a whole we don't need to go we can go into it because it's symbolic, but there was this whole part with an automaton, which is fine. I don't mind automatons. But it was they kept talking about how very
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: realistic like little child. And it just creeped me the hell out. And every time they talked about it, I'm just picturing this like
Sri: I know.
Andie James: creepy doll that's like, I don't know, it just
Sri: No, I mean it is it is like the the like porcelain doll in the attic and like I Necessarily a horror person, but I like a little element of like psychological gothic flavor. And so it's like dark enough for me because if you have internal turmoil and you have internal angst, you're gonna have some like it's a weird book. Like you're gonna have some weirdness, you know. So when you were saying that, I was like, this is so funny to me because yes, there were times I was like, talking about the Avatar, but like I just sort of let that
Andie James: Talking about? Yeah.
Sri: go. I was like, well. You know, like I said, it's it's like Hamlet and his skull, right? Like you get the
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: symbol, you get the obsession, and you're like, Well, they're gonna just have to like get back to this. But yeah, and that's fine because
Andie James: Ha ha ha
Sri: well, just hearing you talk about like how how strange you think it is, is even funnier because for me, like I think I said this in my review at one point. I'm like, I feel like she wrote this book specifically for me. Like it just hits on all the things that I like, and I'm like, I don't know what that says about me, but it was doing it for me, and it still is
Andie James: And I love that it does it for you. And I wanted to love this because I know you love it.
Sri: Please.
Andie James: and it just I don't know. I just like I said, all the elements were there. It just I don't know, for some reason. And it's not I did not dislike it at all. yeah.
Sri: Yeah. No, obviously there's a lot to talk about, but I get it. And there's parts where, you know, I think like one of the things we were talking about in terms of some of the old school things, like Diana's attack, like there's a lot there that
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: I'm like, whoa, this is kind of heavy. And like I don't know that I wouldn't necessarily handle it like this, but you know.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah. There's a point where she's literally like seconds away from being raped. So it's like, well, and I mean I would
Sri: Yes, yes, it's a it's a lot.
Andie James: argue in a way she well, she's already been assaulted, but it's yeah, yeah, it is happening. Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I still talk about it. I mean it's still an attack, like she was, you know, kidnapped.
Andie James: Yeah. So it's it gets a little little it goes more into detail than I feel like a lot of books being written today would.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: And part of me is like, I applaud the the bluntness and the the ability to go there. But I think maybe it's just 'cause we're worried about like you know, content warning kind of thing. Like this could be really triggering to some people, but like yeah. Yeah.
Sri: Yeah. Yes. It's a different. Yes, definitely. And I think like also with the heavier like court elements and like that sort of things seem like very and and we can talk about this theme too, but things seem like, nothing's happening. And there's a lot happening like in the background. And it's interesting because like, yeah, that's not the sort of thing, it's not like I need books to always take place at court. It's the more It's just the like pulling strings and the sort of consistent
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: flips and power that I find really interesting.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: but yeah, I will say that like that's something she definitely focuses on. Jo Beverley herself, I think, has said in one of her author's notes, she likes writing some of those things. And I do find those discussions interesting because they all, you know, different characters at different points, like have a hand in sort of shaping a lot of these politics and like are very close to the king. And so There's a lot of, you know, attention on that and interest in that, and I find it Interesting to see how they sort of do the self serving while also trying to do like what's for the greater good. and I think this is something kind of about like Georgian romance in general. Cause like I think Elizabeth Hoyth does this well in Maiden Lane. I'm reading Anne Stewart's Rufless right now, and there's like elements of some of this, like Georgian romance is not afraid to get a little dark, a little body, like there's a little bit more of like feeding. the darker impulses and the id that I find I don't know again what that says about me, but I find it really interesting from a psychological perspective, certainly. And so I think that's why again it it's compelling to me to sort of and I that's what they're struggling with, right? Like both Diana and Bey have positioned themselves as like We are going to resist, which is kind of an inactive stance for their characters for the whole book. And yet they're presented with like this temptation all the time. Like they they acknowledge directly their desire for each other, which I'm like
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: hot. You can talk about things really frankly. Like, I'm into that. Exactly.
Andie James: Yeah. Open communication is it's good. It's good. Yeah. Well, and I loved I think you brought this up in some of the notes you shared with me, but like I I mentioned I feel like this book is kind of ahead of its time a little bit in the way it discusses consent because
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: she's she's really like you know, we c we can come together. I can have this experience and that can be it. And he's like, Mm, really? You know, can't can you just have just you know
Sri: And she like at the start of the book, his sister has been doing some work to like get these pamphlets out there. And she's like, you know, cause it 'cause that's interesting too. Like I love the whole like having to control your reactions around like your entire family being there and they're like We've already clocked that like the two of you, you know, have been making eyes at each other. And so his sister has basically conversation with each of them to sort of like intervene. And like they're both very clear on what's happening. They're like, like I'm just being told off. Like, and of course that's only gonna make me want this more. So
Andie James: Right.
Sri: she gives Diana a pamphlet and and Diana has like some experience with things, you know, through her own explorations. But then there's reading material and you know, she's been doing her own reading. So she's like, she Definitely naive in a lot of ways that she and Faye sort of butt heads about because there's an age difference, because she, you know, was in his view silly to try and get her role in the House of Lords, and that's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: started this whole mess and brought attention to her. So now she has even less freedom than what she had. There's a great line where she's like, Or he he's like, Yeah, I'm trying to return you what you have now. And he's like, But not what I had an hour ago. He's like, What you had an hour ago is like a false idea of what you have. You know, you couldn't
Andie James: Yeah. Right.
Sri: just run free. Like you weren't gonna have unchecked power, even if you're in the north. And I find the north-south thing really interesting too.
Andie James: Yeah, yeah, 'cause her her holdings, her estate, her earldom,
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: is in the north and there's a lot of conversation about having to go south to London and to the king and kind of this
Sri: Yeah, and that it's sort of like this this more like refined, like quote unquote tamed court life of London and the sort of friction that they have. The wilds of the north. Exactly. Right. So I find
Andie James: Yeah. The wilds of the north. Yes. Yeah.
Sri: that, you know, of course it speaks a lot about their characters and Bey being very controlled and Diana having some impulses that he finds immature because Of her frustrations as a woman, which like I think she holds it together pretty well. Like, I'd be mad about a lot of things that I feel like she did not just, you know, start popping off about.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: and I think, right, it has to do with, you know, her age, her gender, what power
Andie James: Mm.
Sri: she thinks she has. And there there's an interaction that, you know, prior to this book. they have because I'm just gonna talk about this briefly because I think it's it's sort of it's mentioned in different ways and I think it might be kind of important to their characters, but his brother Brand married her cousin in the prior book and that relationship was interesting too. She Rosa wants to, you know, she needs to have like an heir to her husband's title in order to kind of maintain the properties and stuff and the new like heir that's gonna be coming in because her husband's like sick at that point is, you know, a bad man and so I forget how Brand ends up there. I'm pretty sure he's just like by the side of the road and they like rescue him. And then she's like, hmm, I wonder if I can like start a relationship with this man that is supposed to be like rehabilitating in my home. And obviously there's like all kinds of ethical concerns there. And so Rothgar understandably is like this woman and her cousin, this countess, have like drugged my brother. and he's trying to like, you know, investigate like, are they gonna like try to kill him? Like, what are they doing? Are they gonna take advantage of him? Again, power dynamics with like, you know, assault and rape and things like that. and so anyway, he goes to like confront. And like rescue Bran. By this point, he and Rosa are just like, We're good, like, we love each other. And but
Andie James: It's fine, yeah.
Sri: like no one else has gotten the memo. So then Diana like manages to like get the upper hand because she pulls a pistol on him. And like he has never had someone, you know, yeah, challenge
Andie James: Challenge him that way.
Sri: him that way and just succeed in like pulling the wool over his eyes, right? And like she also is in disguise, like as Rose's maid through a lot of the book. he wasn't watched to that. So both of them start the book in a way where they're coming together for this family wedding already on guard because she's like training her fencing master her you know her the person that's like coaching her in shooting and she's like I cannot let him unnerve me like that because she hesitated before you know shooting I think was the the thing. And Bey is like no one has ever managed to like get this close to me.
Andie James: Ha ha ha.
Sri: In a lot of ways. And she's a woman and she's younger. And so he's like, What am I gonna do about this? So both of them are like, Yeah,
Andie James: Like how dare she I know.
Sri: exactly. How dare she? They're both kind of like on guard already because they feel like they've made a fool of themselves in front of each other.
Andie James: Well, and this book starts. So for me not having read the previous ones, right? So this is my first introduction to him as a character. This book opens and it's kind of funny because it actually opens from his brother's point of view. It doesn't open from Bey's point of view. And so I it took me a second. I was like, Who's the main character here? 'Cause I was like, it
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: is not, I don't think it's the guy who's name like it took me just a couple of pages to clock that like he was not it.
Sri: Yes. Yeah.
Andie James: but like anyway, it was just interesting. but it starts with like him in a duel with a pretty skilled person.
Sri: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Andie James: it's and then so it's kind of like you're already seeing this like challenge to him in a way.
Sri: Yeah, and he's aware of it. Like that's the thing too, is that he's like calculating the steps. I find that interaction with him and his brother Bright, especially on this read, like it was something that was more fascinating to me because there are a lot of friction because Bright was like I I can't remember if they shared the same mother or not, but there's like some friction between like who should have had the title and who shouldn't, or something like that, where like they used to butt heads about, you know, who was gonna have this power.
Andie James: Well, they they don't have the same mother as how I read it. but
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: Bright is the next in line if
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: he if Bey does not have a child and so basically it's gonna fall then on Bright's son and Bright doesn't wanna put that pressure on his son.
Sri: Right. So there's yes. And that's what I thought was really interesting too, because like Bright is very obvious about being like. Why will you not marry to help me in this way and to help my son? And they have a very like again frank conversation about Bey being like, well, one of your options is to give me the child. Or like, you know, I could just go now. And like, you know, he's like, Do you thirst for the Marquisette? And he's like, no, I don't. I need you to like, he's like, I need to like, you know, you need
Andie James: Yeah. It's like I don't want it.
Sri: to get a grip and like get married. That's what I want. So they, that's the friction that I found like super interesting because Bey up until this point is someone who's, and you see this in the book too. He's a protector. He's willing to go to all
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: lengths for his family, but this is the one line that he will not cross. And you know, with a brother that he's like the closest to, Bright's
Andie James: Yes. Yeah.
Sri: super frustrated about that. He's like, what
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: do you mean that like this is all of a sudden what you can't do? You know? The whole like the mouth and all things are possible. Like he is used to removing obstacles. So like this
Andie James: Yeah. Well it was interesting too that they Yeah. Right.
Sri: is a place where he's like, what why was the line?
Andie James: Mm-hmm. But I think that initial kind of opening with the duel at first was like, what is this? But it it does a couple things because one, it shows us that there is a real threat to Bey because this has kind of been set up. we find out that the guy he's dueling is very skilled, and it was someone prompted him into doing this essentially because they wanted to see if they could kill Bey. and this part of this kind of overall plot that we got of someone trying to take his life and and he's he's keen to it. He's like he's like I think there's something else going on here. But he's pissed because it is kind of the more he again, he's used to being in control. He's used to not being bested except by Diana in the previous book, which they mention a lot in this one.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and so, you know, before when he's dueled, like it's always like he's masterfully kind of just been in control the whole time. But because this was intentionally a skilled person to try and match him, to try and kill him, he had to exert like a lot more effort than he usually does. And so
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: he's mad that he had to show publicly this side of himself that he likes to keep hidden, right?
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: It's like he's shown both the the the extent of his mastery that he is very good at this, but also that like he's more human and he couldn't just be the polished. I'm just in control and I'm gonna smack this down. And I think that tells us so much about him.
Sri: Yeah, even Bryant's like, you know, hey, that was close. And Bran says that at some point too. He's like, from what I heard, like that was close. And so it is like that's the first sort of You know, because the the incident with Diana was in the prior book, but this is the first place where you see immediately, like I think even if you haven't read the books right away, you know, they talk about the Eminence de War like the Dark Marcus. Like you can tell that this guy has this like smoke and mirror kind of persona. He nobody knows that much about him. They know he's powerful. He's sort of pulling all these strings. at some point Diana's like, Are you a secret agent? He's like, No, but I employ a lot of shadowy figures. Like he likes to keep his power.
Andie James: Right.
Sri: In the background, in a way where like people know it, but they don't know the full extent. And he and he had to reveal himself. And you know, like you said, this is the first place where we see that there's like a chink in the armor, and he is, you know, he's cracking in a way, and he's becoming human, like he is cracking through the whole book. And like, I do love to see a man break, I love to see a man cry in romance. Like, again, I don't know what that says about me, but I I find it like
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: So compelling to take like any kind of like really uptight, like restrained, controlled, starchy character and just see them struggle with with things unraveling,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know.
Andie James: Yeah, but it's really interesting because he always wants to be in the protector position. Like that is his thing because he couldn't protect his sister, right? And so it's like this very
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: and but there's a several times in the book where Diana protects him and he almost can't handle it. Like it's like he can't handle it.
Sri: No, he definitely cannot handle it. Yeah. He and he he again, like they speak really directly about it where he's like, I think you've forgotten like who's in the role of who's protecting who. And at one point she's like, I have
Andie James: Right.
Sri: the instinct to protect. And he's like, Well then we're likely to trip over each other because I mean he's getting like
Andie James: Right. It's like we're gonna butt heads 'cause we both
Sri: Yes. He's irritated. He's like, no, like you have to let me help you in these ways. Like, you know, when we're training her for court. And he's like, yeah, it's okay. Like, don't show me that you can rise from your curtsy. Like you have to let me do that. You know, like this is not a place to
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: to act unwise. And he's very like, you know. He will plan out all the chess moves before making a move and Diana's more impulsive in certain ways. And so that's part
Andie James: I usually.
Sri: of the friction too, where he's like, you are gonna you have to be careful because we cannot be forced into this like marriage and name only. It's gonna be a disaster like for both of us because we are really into each other.
Andie James: Well, and that planning though, sorry, my brain's linking back now to where I was trying to go a long time ago and then we diverted, but that is fine. No, it's
Sri: That's okay that happens to me all the time.
Andie James: okay, that's fine. But I was talking about consent because in the scene where they do come together, this is actually after Diana has saved him because they've been ambushed on the road
Sri: Yes. Yes.
Andie James: south to go to London to meet the king. And she ends up having the the the hero shot that ends up Killing the last bad guy so that they themselves cannot be killed.
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: And it's the first time like she's killed someone and she's
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: kind of shaken by it. So they have this moment of like passion of the afterviolence. It's like you're heightened and you're you need, you know.
Sri: I know.
Andie James: Anyways, and he understands what's going on, she understands what's going on, but they're like, Okay, yeah.
Sri: Yeah, he just says it. He's like she he like can tell and I have to just like plug this line because it still, like I said, lives like rent-free in my head. and so he's, you know He's like, the seats in my coach, like fold down into a bed. And she's like, what? And he's like, well, just so you can like rest and like recuperate. And then she's like
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: looking at him, you know, it's like, I want to jump phones right now. And he's like, Yes, it happens. He's like, I know it happens sometimes after violence. And I was like,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: I cannot believe that he actually just like said it like that. And he's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: like, you know, he's like rubbing his thumb over her lip or something. I'm like, sir, this is too much for me. And I'm just reading the book. Like, I'm about to compose.
Andie James: That's which I know. So it's later it's later that night. They're at the inn and they're giving in after a lot of conversation, whatever, of like this is our one time. And but they're kind of i and it's kind of at first they're gonna like do
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: everything without like fully doing the Deed, right? Because it's kind of like, well,
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: let's experience passion, but we can't cross that line because it'd be too much. And he's I can't remember exactly what he says, but there's some moment where they're they're getting hot and heavy. And he's like, you need to decide right now. He's like, because you
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: cannot he's like, you have to decide before we go into this if we're gonna cross that line officially or not, because you can't decide in the moment, because you won't be able to like I can't remember how he phrases it, but it's basically like he's saying
Sri: I remember and it w and it's so like in it that's a thing that you sort of see like again with that like violence scene in other scenes too. Like he is maybe not comfortable, but he's sort of like the interesting part about that is like she's in what would be like the typically masculine role, right? Like she has to like work
Andie James: Okay.
Sri: off her energy after this like violent thing, and he's like fine acknowledging that because he also knows what that feels like. They talk about like, you know, the sort of like need for him to sort of like resolve. conflict by like has to sort of kill the bad guy and she like thwarts one of those chances or something. So it's very much like, you know, that the alpha sort of energy. But at the end, you know, again, they're acknowledging like, you're just like speaking in under the effect of danger is what he tells he it's what he tells Diana when she comes to him. And then she's like, and are you not? And he's like, well why do you think that I'm letting you sit here, you know? So
Andie James: Yeah, what do you think? I let you into my room. Why do you Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: Exactly. Which he which is a very clever way of like he never will directly just be like, Yeah, me too. He's gonna sort of like say, You can take the implied meaning, because again, he has to think keep those things close to his chest. Yes, but when they are negotiating like the consent part,
Andie James: keep that upper hand, yeah. But yeah, but it's so Yeah.
Sri: he you know He's like, you have to decide now if we take the safe path or not. And he's like, so you won't be able to stop otherwise. And he's like, no, I will stop. I love that, you know, he it this isn't a thing that's gonna like, I'm not gonna be so swept away that I'm not gonna be thinking about this, which is also something that she she wants him to be swept away and be more human, but he's like, No.
Andie James: Right. No.
Sri: and he's like, it's just not something you can decide in the heat of the moment. And I thought that that was also great. Yeah,
Andie James: He's like, you're not gonna be logical because you're gonna be swept up in these feelings.
Sri: exactly.
Andie James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I loved it. It was great. But
Sri: Me too.
Andie James: and there's something I mean, we've mentioned her saving him, but another piece that is commented on a lot, and he's trying to like teach her how to mask this in terms of being able to please the king and stuff, is that she she's very competent. And I think because of her role, she has trained, like like you've alluded to. in all these kind of what are normally the manly pursuits. So like she is a crack shot. She knows how to fence. She's very assertive with her opinions. And this is all the stuff that he's saying. Like you cannot show this. You need to be the demure female who is, you know, saying, yes, I do need the guidance of a husband and stuff. And but it shows how much he understands the game that needs to be played, for lack of a better word, in terms of those court politics.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and in some ways it's like
Sri: And he and he understands like that it's hard for her. Like at one point she says,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: I resent on your rely on your protection. He's like, it's a universal experience for like my siblings somewhere else. Like he knows. Just very direct then about saying that like, yeah, I can do this because I'm a man. You can't, like, you can't show that you understand Greek and Latin and like you can't rise from your own curtsy. And like he
Andie James: Right.
Sri: understands the frustration, but he's also like, this is if you want what you want, which is not gonna be what you originally wanted, because that's never gonna come to you. But if you want to maintain what you have and you don't want to get married to me. This is what I can do for you. And you're gonna have to kind of get on board with the fact that, like, let's be practical about this. You're gonna have to do this in order to get what you want. Like, can you keep that in mind? Or are you gonna react really like instinctively about certain things? So, like those discussions are interesting because they just see a lot about each other. Like they do see a lot
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: about each other's behavior. And I find that interesting because they don't keep it to themselves. Like they will just call each other out on
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: that stuff, you know?
Andie James: Well, it was interesting as I was reading it because I kept going back and forth between being part of me was like impressed that he understands all this and like he knows how to play the game and get her what she wants. and he's willing to do that for her and help her. And but then the other part of me was like, God, stop telling her to suppress who she is. Let her shine, let her be these, you know, and it was kind of like
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: I kept going back and forth where I was like pissed and I was happy. But the thing is, like, I think the reason it frustrated me so much is that That is life. We're constantly
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: within our, Like like I I was thinking I think about it in the context of not to go off on a tangent here. I'm we're talking about a book, but Sri and I both self-publish our books. And there
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: is a lot of decisions that you have to make that you've maybe never even thought of before when you are trying to publish and sell and market your books. Because we live in late stage capitalism and it is a hellscape. And I am constantly battling with myself. And now AI's entered the picture, so but it's like I hate that I am beholden to Amazon
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: to sell my books to but it's like how much are you willing to play the game to get what you want
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: and need because there's some part of you that has to compromise a little bit because if you are going to just to use the analogy of this book, and sorry, I'm going off now, but like if I'm gonna be Diana and I'm gonna embrace all these things about me and say, no, I'm going my own way, you may end up losing the thing you really want. And like so
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: for me it's like what where and how am I willing to compromise what I'm doing in order to put my books out in the world. Otherwise They may never be discovered, they may never be read, I may never make enough to be able to have the money to invest in and publish another book.
Sri: Mm.
Andie James: Anyway, I I I just I I think I was so frustrated because I see these same conflicts in many aspects of life.
Sri: Yeah. And far be it from me to defend a man, but I am gonna, I'm gonna jump in on Bey's behalf here because he does
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: say in the coach, you know, when they get sort of fatigued, where she's like, I think you must really want to marry me because, you know, we're giving up. And she does sort of joke at one point. She's like, maybe I should just do that to like make all these women tear their hair out. And he's like, Don't, like, I'm gonna be really bad to you. but he says, he's like, You're just an extraordinary woman in in some sort of way, and she's like, You know, is that a compliment? And he's like, Don't beg for compliments. And she's like, Can't you say that extraordinary in like a positive light or an attractive light? And he's like, Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. And so that's when they like kind of talk about like that elephant that's sort of in the room. But, you know, he'll give her that. He'll call her Iron Hand, right? Like he knows he's like, You're still that like warrior maiden of the north. And like he talks about
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: that, you know, he's like, You have to sort of surrender and like trust me if we're gonna, you know, do this at the end. Yeah.
Andie James: Yeah. Well, and that's what makes it okay. And that's what redeems it is that he's telling her you need to suppress
Sri: Like he sees her even if there's strategy.
Andie James: these things, not because I don't want you to be them. He's
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: saying you need to do it in order to be able to like have the best outcome of this crappy situation. But I see you, I understand this.
Sri: Yeah. And other people aren't gonna see it. They're not gonna appreciate it. So it's like why show that next.
Andie James: Yeah. But he's like, I respect it. I want you to still be that person. He's not trying to like ultimately change her. And that's why I'm like, okay.
Sri: No. And they talk about that too. Like at the end, you know, she where they're kind of getting their their resolution. She's like, You adore me exactly as I am. And or you like me exactly as I am. And he's Yeah, I adore you exactly as you are. And so I think that there's something, I don't know, to me, it's like you're kind of facing it together. Yes, she has more of a risk. But you know, even when they're talking about she's like, like I'll still see you at court. And he's like, Did you think that I was gonna abandon you? Like that hurts him a lot, you know? And and
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: even at one point he's like, I have to get back. Like I just wanna breathe the same air that she's breathing. Like this man is gone,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know? And like
Andie James: yeah.
Sri: There's there's distance that he's keeping because he trusts that she can do what she needs to do. Like when they're talking about some of the shadowy things that he's doing, he's like, I would not be telling you these things if I didn't think you could keep a secret. So there's just that again, that mutual trust, that respect. He's, you know, teaching her. How to do this strategically, but he's not doing it for her, right? Like, yes, he has to lift her from the curtsy, but he's like, I trust you to be able to manage this. Like they come up with a code at like her, you know, creation of
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: this code for how they're gonna talk about the king and queen. She's like, I could spy, it would just be gossip. And so, you know, there's stuff like that where he is giving her freedom and he is letting
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: her sort of do these things that are more like mentally interesting and like you know more of that like engaging part of being a queen's attendant other than just like she's the best people on the survey like how much of a lady are you like are you quote unquote normal you know so there's there is this part of like being on display but he does remind her and I you know he's like I see you and I know who you are it's just one of those things where like I don't know
Andie James: Mm.
Sri: it reminds me of something like the Hunger Games where it's like you have to hold on to like the core of who you are, right? So he will strategically tell
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: her Or, you know, when she needs it, he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna share this secret with you and like we'll talk about the work that I'm doing and like You know, don't be conventional. Disappoint me, Diana, 'cause like he knows that she has views that aren't conventional.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And you know, the whole Iron Hand thing. Like he he really he will give her those things when he sees that she hates it. And she doesn't always have to ask for it either. Like
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: he'll know. So again, I I don't know. Like I said, I do not defend men like this, but there's just something about Bey that I
Andie James: No, it's okay.
Sri: like I just understand where he's coming from in a way where
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: Like I get that you want to give her like everything and you can't, and you're so used to like holding things back, even from like your
Andie James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: family. Like you have to be cruel and practical with Bright, like your brother that you're super close to, and and his son who you love, and say, like, no, I'm not willing to do this for you. And it's and she recognizes that too. Diana's like At one point, you know, Rose is like, Yeah, I guess like Rothgar's hot if you admire a finely made blade. And she's like, He's not just a weapon, like can't you see how like alone and lonely his life is? Like you do see that through all these things because you're making difficult decisions. you are seen as like cold and that's the persona that he has and she's like, No, that's not the Bey that I see, right? So I don't know. I find that like, yeah, it's just very touching for me.
Andie James: Well and it's interesting too because at one point she kind of keys into the fact that the king is actually basically like she was distracted at one point and agreed to let the king and queen choose who she would marry, like kinda deferring to they know best. Because she was thinking about him. Yeah. And so she's kinda and then she's like, Wait, what did I just agree to? So she's trying to like stall the king, like
Sri: Because she was thinking about Bey and we're talking about Yeah, the king's like, and you wanna get married, don't you? And she's like, Yes.
Andie James: Yeah, and so she's like playing off this whole like, Well, I'd really like to marry someone I love. So like can you give me a little chance to investigate these candidates and like see so she's trying to like buy time, but she
Sri: Yes. Yeah.
Andie James: clues in at some point to the fact that the person the king actually wants to match her with is Bey. And
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: so in some ways it's like a solution to the problems because
Sri: Yep.
Andie James: you're gonna he's gonna say, like the king is gonna say, This needs to happen and they can't really argue with it and then They both can like give in to what they really want. But she's like, but this isn't the way I want it. Like he cannot be forced. And so she's like, he
Sri: Yes, I that. Yes.
Andie James: like it'll never work if he is forced into this marriage. I need to find a way to break through to him to say, It is okay. You can give in. Like you can have a child. You can take this risk. You can, yeah. And so then the mission in the rest of the book,
Sri: You can have love, right? Like I think it's and she says that at one point too. She's like, I just
Andie James: yeah.
Sri: go ahead. Right. Right. It's it's letting
Andie James: It's like making him love her. Well, he already loves her, but you know.
Sri: himself sort of right. And and that's well, I do have more to say about that too, because I I do think there's some interesting things there. But right, I see like that to me is also interesting too. Because I think for characters we see, like, you know, the choice points are like In order to kind of keep the story going, they get what they want, but maybe it's not in the way they want it, or they don't get what they want. Those are the things you have to navigate. And so that's a place where she's like, no, that would be worse than not marrying at all, because we're we're just gonna stick more tightly, or at least he's gonna stick more tightly to the fact that like I can't let myself you know be fully in this with you, and that they were forced to do it. It's like it she doesn't want. his surrender in that way. Like she wants him to want
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: to give this. And it's the same thing for her. And so that adds like another layer to what's going on there. Because like of course there's these like longing looks and like her little like fan signal to say that I love you. I was
Andie James: Okay.
Sri: like, my God, that's so cute.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: But they can't like they cannot let the king actually be encouraged by that because that's gonna cause more problem. So like they have to like keep more distance while they're still sort of like constantly wearing each other. and I think You know, that's just kind of like that's that's heartbreaking. Like it's angsty in a way where it's like you have something within reach. You have something that could
Andie James: Mm.
Sri: be the perfect solution. But again, they talk about him being, you know, Dedalus in the maze. And I think it is one of those things where that's what I find fascinating with my characters. We're like, you know, and him people talk about this with romance all the time. It's like, well, why can't you just have a conversation? Sorry. At that point, like that feels like the most frightening thing to do. So he's built up so many walls.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: He doesn't see that like This is self-created. He doesn't see that there is a way out. I think that is what happens to people. Like you cling so tightly to what you know. And if you know is this false cage that you've built up, then yeah, that is gonna be what you cling to. So I find that, you know, really interesting. There was something that you just mentioned about
Andie James: I was talking about how she's like, I need you to want this. Like it can't be forced, it can't be
Sri: right. And the sort of like her, you know, the the shift in like she sees it being more possible. Like, okay, my new mission is to like make him see that he deserves these things. I mean at one point she says, like, you know, I just hunger. Like, tell me it's wrong for us to go through life alone. And like that's what kind of breaks him. or like tell me it's right for us to go through life alone. And I just find that like so moving too. because eventually like he does realize through his siblings, through himself that like he knows he's causing her pain. And like that is unbearable compared to causing himself pain. But I think it's interesting too, because sometimes with heroines, like this isn't an arc I always like where they have to be the steadier one. They have to be the one that's like,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know, convincing the other person to love and love them. And what was interesting about what I wrote, no, no, no, me too. That's
Andie James: I've totally written that though.
Sri: what I was saying. With the Diwali book, like that is exactly what ends up happening. Like, Rachika is the steadier. Person because she has accepted being human. Like she even talks about, like, the way that I tried to solve this problem might not have been the right thing. And he doesn't even let her take that fault. And she's like, it's okay though. Like I can admit when I've made a mistake and I've done something wrong. You can't do that. Like, you don't think that you're even allowed mistakes, or you know, you have the falsehood that you're above them. Like that. Is what makes you fragile. Like that rigidity is what's easy to break. And I think that's interesting, especially when you map it on to like these gender roles, where I think we do see in historical romance, like the heroines have to be the ones that open the alpha male up to love and like they're the softer ones. And so this is maybe a ver, you know, a variation of that, but in a way where I don't feel
Andie James: Yeah. Well
Sri: like any point is losing power. In fact, like
Andie James: Yeah, 'cause how many times have we seen the story where it's like, I refuse to have an heir? Because it's like,
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: I can't carry on the family line, but this is such a different way in which it's set up for the reason why. It's not that
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: like I'm spiting my father who was terrible, which is kinda kinda
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: what I wrote. I mean, I the first book in my current series, Bequeathed, like, my hero West has just inherited his own Marquisate About a Marques here. and he basically like the woman, you know, that he falls for, he just is like, No, my father would have loved her, and I cannot do anything that would please him. And so he's just like,
Sri: But that's human too.
Andie James: Yeah. And so, but it's like, you know, it's this, but this is it's not like I refuse to have an heir, but it's more like I
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: can't do anything that would make my father happy. You know,
Sri: Right.
Andie James: and or or would have. I mean his father's now dead,
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and it's so it's just the stubbornness that she has to break through. And so there's some real parallels
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: here. but you know, Jo Beverley does it much more masterly than I do in terms of having kind of like a real legit reason where he is just like scared to
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: of like what could happen. Like there's a legitimacy there.
Sri: And there's a there's a power too in that like you know it the book starts with him talking to Bright about like the countess has like a big house than off our abbey. Like there are certain things that like Diane has more of, has more power in and You know, he's talking to Brand at one point and his other brother about like, well, what if things did pass through like the mother and they took the mother's last name and like titles passed down that way, which is like you think he's in this role of like trying to limit Diana, but his views themselves are not like that. And he talks about like, you know, being instrumental in the in the marriage acts and stuff. And so, you know, you I think like, yes, he he's the one that sort of has to put these boundaries down because Diana's more willing to. move past them. And then ultimately that's kind of what is the shift in opening up to love because she's willing to kind of break those barriers in the heat. So you sort of see the strengths of both of their ways of thinking about things. Like his ability to kind of like put emotion aside and do the thing that needs to be done to achieve the end that is ultimately going
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: to make her happy is important in the beginning. And then her ability to say like Life is risk, right? They talk about that, and which is still something I'm learning. So, you know, it's still important. So, you know,
Andie James: Amen.
Sri: her ability to see that and say, like, again, just say things like, Tell me it's right for us to go through life alone. Like, I don't think that that's what we're meant to do or what anyone's meant to do. Like, this is a right for every human being. And even though she's younger, even though she's naive and less experienced in the ways of the world, where he's like, What you want is child, you're never gonna be in the house of lords. Here's a place where She's right. And her ability to put those rules, those boundaries is what is helpful and important and appreciated, and just part of like their love story. So you get to see each of them have a role. Not to mention along the way where there's all these different flips, but like they're truly two people who are coming together to make a relationship where they still get to be their own people. And the things that
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: make them who they are are really appreciated about each other. And like neither one of them has to. And she
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: says that's she says that too. She's like, I do you feel change? And he's like, Yeah, I'm transformed. She's like, I don't want you to be changed. It's not supposed to happen like that. Like, this isn't meaningful. Yeah.
Andie James: Like I I still want you to be you. Yeah.
Sri: He's like, I'm like, you know, she's like better than like changing in the ways that like all people change when they're in love. And that's what he says. He's like, you're still gonna have to put up with the fact that like I need to be all powerful, I need to be all knowing, like, you know, you can't give me orders. I love that part too, where like when after the end, they're sort of talking about the fact that he's like, We didn't because of course they did not take the safe path. And he's like, if there's consequences, like you have to tell me. And she immediately
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: like, that's a place where she can be practical. And she's like, No. it would cause him too much pain. you know, we can't acknowledge this child. It's gonna be mine to handle alone, and you'll have to accept that. And he's like, don't give me orders. And she's like, well, don't try to fight me on this. And I I find that wonderful. Because it's I mean, I love like banter and bickering as much as the next person with enemies to lovers, but here's a place where like They're trying to do things out of care for the other person, not just their own interests. And that's creating friction because again, they both have the impulse to protect, the impulse to sort of stand in the way of like, they're too similar.
Andie James: Yeah. They're too similar and so they yeah.
Sri: They're like, let me jump in front of that bullet first. And like then they're both
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: cracking their heads together because they're trying to get there first, you know? So I just find that
Andie James: Right.
Sri: like, I find that because it's like the one place where they're incompetent because it's like motivated by competence in other ways. Like they're they're trying to like. after their hearts, you know.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we could talk forever, but we've already have been talking forever. So to sum up, this was this book has so much great commentary that I feel is in a way ahead of its time. Maybe I'm not giving two thousand enough credit, but you know,
Sri: Ha ha ha.
Andie James: but just you know, in terms of commentary on gender and different roles and power and it's just there's so much great things to say here. So I see why you love this book. I did thoroughly enjoy it. I so appreciate what it was doing. And I am interested to read more because like now I'm like got this taste of this family and just just no creepy child automatons and we're good. I know, I know, but yeah,
Sri: Don't worry, that's that's only a Bey thing.
Andie James: I just I just need to get over it. It just it's seriously every time I pictured it in my head, I just pictured like almost like a Chucky doll and it like creeped me the hell out. But
Sri: That's that's fair. I also think like related to that, like you know, we talked about it's it's the image of like Diana as like the son that like her dad didn't have, their future child. Him as a child that needs to heal. I also
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: find it just so endearing that like his name is Beowulf and he asks her to call him Bey. Like everybody close to him calls him Bey. I'm like, wow
Andie James: I know.
Sri: is so cute. Like that is just a little boy who is scared, like inside, you know, like he's
Andie James: I know. I love it.
Sri: not the dark Marquess you know, like he's he's just scared.
Andie James: I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyways, Devilish by Jo Beverley. There's a lot to dissect. And so if you guys read it, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If not, maybe you will go check it out. like I said, it was totally new to me. Jo Beverley has passed, unfortunately. She passed about ten years ago, but she has quite a rich body of work.
Sri: That's that's another thing that, you know, we didn't touch on directly, but in terms of like why a lot of us write, like it's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: not really about like leaving a legacy. For me, it's like leaving a fingerprint in the fabric of time to be like, hey, for a while I was here and look at how great that was. And like, especially because I think about grief a lot in my own experience and the way that I write. I just think that's amazing that like even after she's passed, it's like I think that was 2016. So I picked up these books just within the past year. So
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know, and Katherine says this a lot: like the publication day is like the first day in a very long life of book of a book,
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: and you never know when it's going to find someone that needs it. And so
Andie James: You don't know when it's gonna hit, yeah.
Sri: so that was just that's something kind of like you know magical about that too.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah. We can only hope. Well, Sri, thank you so much for joining me and for making me read this not making me, but you know what I mean. Giving
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: me a reason to read this book. and like Yes, thank you for traumatizing me. No, it's okay. And lace cuffs. We didn't go into that, but I like hate I hate the fashion of this time and the wigs and the my god.
Sri: Thank you for traumatizing me with the automaton. We didn't. We didn't. Well, you know, that's so that's funny to me too. I think it's just, you know, the beauty's armor thing that I talk about and all her rings and stuff, and she gives him a ring.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: I think it's like it's part of the Georgian like drama.
Andie James: It's very set in the Georgian and it's it's it's great. But so anyways, thank you again for joining me. Everyone, read the Deed with the Duke. Again, I'll have links to info on the anthology that's coming out. I'm very excited for all the stories in that. and I'm really terrible about like plugging my own stuff. So I never go into this, but you guys please if you enjoy this podcast. you know, like it, subscribe, all the things, either on YouTube, on whatever platform and what you listen to that, because it does help in terms of reach and all that. So I appreciate that. I do have a Patreon for this. I haven't done a ton with it. and I don't mention it a lot, but part one of the perks when you join one it just helps support me in doing this. paying for software and all that. but the other thing is whenever I release something you get it an e copy as part of subscribing to Patreon. Like that's the perk. and I also have an upcoming novella. It's coming out October 2nd. It's part of a multi-author series, which you're gonna hear about in a couple weeks because we're gonna do a bonus episode talking about that series. but yeah so if you decide, you know, that you want that, you could subscribe to the Patreon and that could be one way that you could get access to that. and I'm not ready to share details yet, but I do have other stuff coming before the end of the year.
Sri: Ooh, exciting.
Andie James: there'll be details soon, but there's more coming. So it's worth it to look into that. to subscribing to the Patreon and all the link to that and everything is always in in the description under under this episode. So I'm really bad at plugging myself, so I just thought I'd do it today. Please like and subscribe and support this podcast. and I do have upcoming projects if you want to do that. well enough. 'Cause it's gonna be a long episode. Sri, thank you so much again. Devilish by Jo Beverley. Let's go read some more by her. And I I just love all the deep psychology and all this in this book, which I know you do too. So all right. Yeah.
Sri: Yes, I do. Thank you for having me and letting me you know, talk about a story that just really impacted me.
Andie James: Yeah. No, it's great. It's great. Well, happy reading and listening, everybody, and we'll see you next time. Bye.
Sri: Thank you for having me here. I'm so excited. I love chatting with you and I'm really excited about this book.
Andie James: And another point that I'm gonna mention because I think it is going to be relevant to our discussion of Devilish, is Sri is a psychology professor. That is her day job outside of writing romance. and so she's really good at getting to the depths of her characters and the thought process and what's behind the emotions and the feelings and all of that. And I think That's part of the reason she really enjoyed this book. And I know we're gonna get into some of the underlying stuff when we discuss it. So just pointing that out to say that she knows of what she talks about when we're gonna get into gender dynamics, power dynamics, all those great things.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: Well, thank you again so much for joining me. I'm very excited to chat with you. before we dive into discussing the book, which I hope some of you Have had a chance to read. And if not, hopefully this conversation will make you want to read it. but spoilers ahead, you always know that we're going to discuss this book. So if you don't want to be spoiled, go read it and then come listen. but anyways, I digress. Before we get into the book, I want to talk a little bit more about Sri because, like I said, I think she's a fantastic writer. I d I do again, I'll just hold this up again because yay. So The Deed with the Duke is her book that is out. It's fantastic. It's a novella, but it's a hefty novella. and it's just, again, the characters, the emotion. She's so good at this. But you have an upcoming project. releasing October 9th. this was just recently announced, but our other friend, author Katherine Grant, Who hosts the Historical Romance Sampler Podcast She's been on here before. Hopefully, you guys are familiar with Katherine. But Katherine has created this wonderful world in her own novels called Northfield Hall. She has lots of books associated with it. So it's just it's she's created this wonderful setting that I won't go into much. My episode with Katherine, we discussed it all. follows the Preston family, which runs this estate, Northfield Hall, that's very open and progressive and has people working there from all backgrounds, all classes as part of the estate. and so she, from what I understand, I'll let Sri take this over in a minute, but Katherine organized this project. It's an anthology coming out that looks at holidays at Northfield Hall and Sri has written one of the contributions to this anthology. Diwali with
Sri: It's hard.
Andie James: her duke. and I was lucky enough to get to read this early, and you guys it is so fantastic. So, Sri, why don't you tell us a bit more about about this anthology project and your contribution to it.
Sri: Yeah, so I was kind of casually talking with Katherine, I think, you know, prior to the release of the Deed with the Duke, because I'm writing a family series and so that book came out first. It would actually be book two in the series because this Diwali book is going to be the parents' story. So that's book one. and at the time, you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to expand you know, from Raaz's character or Camellia's character and like what I was going to do with that story, because that book came out in a another multi author collab, but we were already across different shops. So I was just kind of chatting with Katherine about, you know, just the nerves of being someone that had a debut, being someone that you know, you look around and I don't see a lot of books or characters like mine. And so I sort of take that to mean there's not a want or a need for these stories. And so I was kind of, you know, just spiraling. No, no, of course not.
Andie James: Not true.
Sri: so Katherine was, you know, just really great about reassuring me that there was a place for these stories and that, you know, I'm I'm doing something that is interesting. I'm doing it well. And you know, I had mentioned that it's hard to kind of get into some of these like holiday collaborations because a lot of them center on Christmas. And,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know, my characters are sort of in an interesting place because a lot of them are born and raised in England. And that I think is interesting to me because it's true for my own story, right? Like I was born in the United States. and I think that that's you know, presents a different complexity to think about your identity. As an Indian person, what are your connections to India? What are your connections to, you know, maybe your parents if they've immigrated here, the languages, and then also being, you know, rooted to England in a way where you didn't have to assimilate as much because you were born there. and
Andie James: Right.
Sri: y and you know, there's more to then talk about with the characters who had to do that. So Camilla's working class and she did come from India. and so I had mentioned that, you know, if I were gonna do a holiday story, I might do one about Diwali because I haven't seen one in Historical romance. it was a little daunting to think about how I would fit those traditions and cultural elements into Regency England. I think for a lot of my stories, they do tend to be very deeply character driven because the the thing that I'm trying to focus on is bringing forward those elements that are there in the society. And you know, Courtney Milan has talked about how there's all these textiles, there's tea, there's all these imports that are from India, but the people themselves are not centered and in the focus. And so what I do is say that these things are already here. It's possible for them to be celebrating Diwali. They have
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: the elements needed to do some of these traditions. So that was something that, you know, I had just sort of said as a passing comment. And then Katherine came back to me a little later saying that she was thinking about doing this holiday at Northfield Hall idea. And she wanted to incorporate multiple authors to talk about different holidays. So not just, you know, one story, not just about
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: one holiday. And to bring in some of that diversity because it really suits like the world that she's already created and the values of her characters.
Andie James: Right.
Sri: So that was so meaningful to say, you know, because Katherine's kind of the first person that I knew in historical romance. And for her to not only, you know, validate what I'm doing and the kinds of things that I care about in my writing and in my stories, but to also create a space for me to be able to write this story that was something that, you know, was daunting because I haven't seen something like this before, you know, would it fit? Would it be something that people want? And for her to say that like, yeah, there's a space for this to shine. And I, you know, I couldn't stop thinking about the fact that you had mentioned that you might want to write a Diwali story. So That's kind of what you know the conversation started as. And then she said that she was gonna bring some other authors on board. our friend Isabella Kamal is also writing
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: she's actually writing a couple stories in the anthology. So one is on Valentine's Day and then one is on Eid. So that is just super special and awesome to be part of a you know a an idea like this that you know just just gives you that space to say. Yes, it's fiction, but sometimes it feels so dire. It feels like, you know, this is a degree of believability that readers can't extend, right? And that's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: not true. And I think I think that's why, like I said, with a lot of my books, I focus a lot on the characters because the the main thrust of what I'm trying to do is show that there is a way for their cultural practices, you know, their day-to-day lives that fit into this world, I need to spend time showing that, right? So that's what I'm gonna
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: center. I'm not necessarily focusing on huge external plots, which is kind of different than why I enjoy Devilish There's a lot of like espionage and, you know, things like that happening there in court politics. So,
Andie James: There is, yeah.
Sri: you know, that's not necessarily the kind of thing that I'm doing, and especially with this family series. A lot of it is really just coming to terms with, you know, their Who they are in the world that they move in. And you know, to sort of like plug why Devilish speaks to me so much is because I think I've just sort of, you know, branding is like an evolving thing for a lot of authors. And I think for me, you know, my characters do really try to figure out what their sense of power and control means. Because I think those things are so fascinating to me, because as a person of color, as someone that is unrepresented in a lot of spaces in historical romance, my characters too. I think it's something that is at the forefront of your mind in some way, maybe not in an explicit, obvious way, but you do move through the world in a way where you're told very early on you'll have to work twice as hard to go half as far or whatever
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: it is. So I think that those themes about power and control are really about just taking up space in the world. And like in the authors note for Deed with the Duke, I say that it shouldn't be a hard stretch for people to see characters like mine in this world. but sometimes I'm walking alongside the path that history took because they have to carve out their own space. And that is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to research the jewelry, the clothing, the, you know,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: the foods and try to fit those things in. I was just reading about, you know, actually, we were talking about your novella, and you mentioned like in the section that we were reading, you know, the character was menu planning and talking about potatoes and peas. And I was like, you know what? Alumatter has potatoes and peas. Like I could work this in in a way where like the ingredients literally are already there. It's just a matter of, you know, emphasizing that in a way where I'm saying, hey, look, this is Indian, but it fits with the world. So that's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: what I did. I have a character thinking about like how great would it be if I updated the French fare to include some Indian things. And that's in in the next siblings book within this series. So, you know, there's things like that where it's it's a little difficult because then I'm right from a degree of like, you know, I am not someone that's well, living in England and obviously not during the Regency era, but I think some of those like challenges
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: of like bringing some of this forward in a way where and I think also with holiday stories, you know, some of those feel-good moments and things like that, we've talked about this. I think sometimes like you really do just have to tell yourself, like, readers love the cheese, cringe doesn't exist.
Andie James: yeah.
Sri: Because I tend to hold myself back a lot because one of the hardest things, as much as I enjoy drafting, is that There's so much of me wrapped up in what I'm doing, it really does feel like I'm on trial in some sort of way. And especially with the way that people care so much, you know, about historical accuracy, that's another level of worry or fear that comes into the writing process. So That's why I like internal turmoil. I have a lot of it. My characters have a lot of it.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And I think that, you know, the angst is warranted. I love manufactured melodramas. So like I don't want, you know I do have themes of grief because of my own personal experience as a writer and I think know that's sort of woven into especially the Diwali story and for the next book as well and you know Raaz's father has passed that point my father passed recently and so you know I think I think that's there but that's not necessarily that kind of heavy angst where you know it's like literally life or death is not the kind of angst that I enjoy so much as like it's this idea of shedding control. I do think in romantic relationships there is going to be an exchange of power. Whether you want to talk
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: about it as power dynamics or not, because I think power dynamics gets kind of an ugly rap. It's not always about coercion, it's not always about manipulation. My characters do some of that, and I think that's human. I think people are going to do things that are not nice to people they care about, too. or, you know, they're gonna
Andie James: Yes. Yeah.
Sri: lash out because they're trying to protect themselves. And so that's the thing that's interesting to me, is really this like. This anguish about what are you willing to give up or let go of? Because you have to recognize that in order to have the kind emotional connection that you want, the mutually satisfying physical intimacy that you want, there's a degree of having to let go of something. Like you have to set aside your ego, you have to make yourself vulnerable and share something honest and real. You know, admit when you've done something wrong. And those are things that are hard to do for anyone. and so that's why I think that power is kind of inherent to romance, to human behavior. I think
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: my characters are searching for what degree of control they can have in their lives, and of course, romance is gonna kind of threaten that for them, so they really have to figure out like how
Andie James: Right.
Sri: how do I establish my sense of of power. While still getting the connection that I want, getting that happily ever after can you have all of those things? What you have to give up and what feels like a sacrifice, what feels like you know, a change, right? Because that's the the struggle, is like some costs for change are gonna be too high. And when do you feel like, okay, that's the line for me, or I'm willing to make that sacrifice?
Andie James: Right. What are your like kind of set boundaries and what can you
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: adapt and what can you not?
Sri: Yeah. And again, I think that's it's so wonderful to see that. I think historical romance does it really well and also Devilish because you know there's a lot of discussion about, especially women, like what the power is that you can have, especially
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: when you have a society that has so many boundaries and limitations. Like that's what I think is so interesting about writing historical romance,
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: Regency, you know, societies where there is a lot of rules and structure, but I don't want my characters to be limited by that. I want them to overcome it in some way. And that's the story.
Andie James: To examine it and to yeah.
Sri: Exactly. And that's the story. Yeah.
Andie James: For sure. Well, again, I mean, if that wasn't enough to convince you that Sri really thinks deeply about her characters and what she's writing, you really should check out her projects. So The Deed with the Duke is out now. You can find this in Kindle Unlimited and other places. and the upcoming anthology, The Holidays at Northfield Hall, that is releasing October ninth. I am going to put links in show notes on like where you can access that. And it's five total novella length stories in one volume, written by Sri, our friend Isabella Kamal, Katherine Grant, and Charlie Lane. So it's gonna be fantastic. I'm very excited for it. Like I said, I have read Diwali with Her Duke, and it is so good, you guys. It's so good.
Sri: It was it was such a great and and we can definitely talk about the characters and things like that too. It was such an interesting and fun experience to be able to write within Katherine's world and to sort of see how we
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: were gonna map out these holidays. I think it's gonna be a really unique, fun offering as far as holiday stories and anthologies go. So I'm hoping people like it.
Andie James: It is unique and I love it. And I love that it encompasses multiple holidays. It's not just the standard ones. Like I I honestly I was trying to organize something like this myself where we could talk about like someone's gonna write a winter solstice story, someone's gonna write like you know, but then it kind of fell apart and that's fine. You know these things happen.
Sri: Yeah. Yeah. Things happen.
Andie James: but I just I love that idea of focusing on on more and Katherine's the the world she set up at Northfield Hall is such a perfect setting for it. So I'll link
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: to to the conversation I had with Katherine so you can learn more about that series and the Prestons and kind of 'cause it's really fantastic and more people should see the episode I did with Katherine. so Sri, before we dive into Devilish, you've already hit at some great themes and things that we want to talk about. But I wanna know a little bit more broadly about how you got into reading romance and liking romance and then how you decided you wanted to write it.
Sri: Yeah, it's an interesting sort of journey when I look back on it too. not it wasn't, you know, that long ago that this started. It was 2020 my sister
Andie James: Same.
Sri: From cancer in February. And you know, grief is a very hard time. It's not a linear journey. And I found a lot of comfort in books. And you know, prior to that, that was probably like my second year as a faculty member. You know, there was grad school while you're dissertating and doing the master's and PhD. I wasn't reading a lot for fun. I definitely wasn't writing a lot for fun.
Andie James: No.
Sri: I wanted to stay connected to some of my roots, and I actually came to fiction to writing fiction through writing poetry. And so I got involved with my grad school's lit journal as poetry editor and then editor-in-chief. But it sort of stayed connected to that world. and my sister was the one who was always kind of encouraging me to get back into reading. She's You should try audiobooks, which I now love, because she's like, that's a way that you can fade it into you know your chores
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: or whatever it might be. And so I had sort of returned to reading because it was something that was a comfort. You know, we had more time to be able to get back into things during the pandemic. I was thinking of my sister and how she was kind of encouraging me to get back into reading. And like I had sort of gotten into some things in December of 2020. So like right before she had passed. But I was rediscovering what I still liked. I'm like, what do I still like reading? Like, and so I was going back to things that I had read when I was younger that I liked. things weren't necessarily hitting the same way and I felt like, am I just not gonna find a book that I like? And then I was and so then I got into I think I was doing romance before I started reading it. So I got into romance and I was like, here we go. Like this is the high octane, you know, feeling that I want.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And I think I always describe it as like this is kind of weird, but I think about it as like you're seeing the world through like a fly's eyes, like everything is so heightened. Like I love the tension of like those little things, you know, those little gestures, those things that people aren't saying. Like all that stuff is psychologically interesting. And just like, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Andie James: The Darcy Hand flex, it's the perfect metaphor for all of it. Or not metaphor, but you know, it just it encapsulates. I mean it's it's a visual rather than what we love in a book, but it just it's everything about what we love.
Sri: Yes. Yeah, it's everything. And I think I think those are the things that I was really craving. Like I just love sort of those like small gestures that are big things, those things that are like so heightened. Like again, that internal angst around, you know, it's it's just very human behavior. And I wasn't, I think romance really does that better than other genres. Like you get so up close and personal with each character, especially if you've got dual POV. I don't feel like you really attach to the characters in the same way. Well certainly I don't necessarily feel like that with like literary Fiction. I think with other like genre fiction, you can definitely find that. Because I also started reading fantasy and romantasy at the time. And I think that's how I kind of found my way to historical. Because, you know, I do love contemporary romance. I think I actually started in that space thinking about what I wanted to write. Because I didn't think that I Would be welcome historical. So that was a big thing too, because I was reading a lot of historical. And as I said, my background is in poetry. The kind of prose that I like to write, the kind of melodrama, the kind of angst, the kind of turmoil. Historical is just such a beautiful playground for that. And I don't
Andie James: It's so great. Yeah.
Sri: I don't get the same sense of being able to run free with all of that. In other genres. And so I was like, you know, working on my contemporary stories, which you know I may go back to at some point, who knows? But I was longing to write historical. And so I think that, you know, I started a book which I have finished. This is the one that I talked to you about. It's a pirate heroine, smuggler hero, and I will return to that at some point.
Andie James: I mean it's hot pirate summer, so I mean, you know
Sri: Yeah, exactly. It was a it was a great training ground to kind of do the kinds of things I wanted, to have a little bit more of like a secondary, you know, mystery sort of plot and practice those kinds of things. and I just really loved it. And again, I was having those conversations with Katherine about like, you know, should I take this sleep? Like, should I do this? Because it's
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: I I don't know how. I mean, I get that people understand that releasing a book is scary, but like the amount of fear that I felt, like the amount of spiraling like before the Deed with the Do came out, is so different because I really felt like this is a larger issue, and I've talked about this with that book That it's taken a lot of time, I think, for me, for media representation, we're still not quite there to accept that. you can have romantic leads that are people of color. And especially
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: we don't see that a lot with Asian or Indian people. We don't see that a lot with Asian men. And for me to be able to write about characters who share some elements of my identity, who you know find the things that make them Indian attractive about each other, that's something that's super meaningful. Like Katherine, you know, I stay out of reading my reviews there was a reader who had said, like, this was so meaningful to me to see that characters like me were talking about these features and appreciating that in each other. And this is something I talked to you about because you know, if we get a chance to get into that in Devilish, there's a character who I think it's worth talking about. The fact that, you know, I think we're in in a time now where people can be and should be more careful in how they're talking about representation, especially if they're not
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: writing about their own ideas. identity. but
Andie James: yeah, for sure.
Sri: you know I one of the things that I make a point to do, of course, I love, you know, these romantic descriptions of like, you know, brown eyes, like drinking chocolate. I use it myself too. But when I'm talking
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: about skin, there will be times where I say brown. Because I don't commoditize brown skin. And I also want to say that that's enough. Like that's enough of a modifier. Like that my characters are brown. There's a lot of this like You know, joke about like whenever I'm reading romance, I just sub in, like, insert whatever actor they really like or whatever it is. And I'm like, you better
Andie James: Right. Right.
Sri: not be doing that with my books. Like my characters are brown. They are Indian. They're going that's gonna be like super emphasized in what I'm doing, which is why I focus so much on the characters. Like, and you know, anyway, that that's just a lot of stuff to say that I think that you know that. That was part of my hesitation for way as long as I did before I got into writing romance and specifically writing historical romance.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And then like I said, this collab opportunity for The Deed with the Duke came up. And that was through an editor I was working with for other work, because I also have a background in writing Erotica. And so, you know, we were talking about this collaboration that she wanted to do. And I decided, okay, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take the chance to do this for this this one book. Who knows? Like we'll see how that lands. It I didn't I didn't have
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: a plan for a series at all at that point. and then I started thinking about like, well, maybe I should think about this just in case. And then that's you know where things really took off. I thought about, okay, well. What's the story with Raaz's father? Because you know, at the beginning, he's sort of dealing with his own grief. And then, you know, thinking about his siblings for the rest of the series, and then thinking about his parents when we had this discussion. Actually, at that point, I was talking to my editor for The Deed with the Duke, and I had mentioned Katherine had already talked to me about this idea, and she was the one who said, Well, what if you wrote it about? Raaz's father. And that was really what opened up that idea for me. So, all this to say, I kind of came to romance because you know, I came to fiction first because I was trying to reconnect with something me and my sister shared. Like seeing the way that authors depict grief is comforting because you kind of can work through some of your things on the page, especially in romance. I think I can put up with more of that emotional torture because you know you're gonna be okay in the end, right? You're gonna be taken care of. And I think exactly, exactly.
Andie James: Right. Right. You can put through it because they'll be a happy ending.
Sri: And that's what I like doing too. I'm like, yes, I will give you the angst because I know. I'm gonna take care of you at the end. So, and that's also something with my journey where I think because I love to sort of like really turn the the keys on that angst, you know, it It can be daunting to figure out how I'm going to give them an ending that like really sails them over the top here and stuff. So that's like an interesting challenge too. But I think in romance I was seeing that, you know, first I think was more on the fantasy side. It's like reading about like Death Dragons easier than reading about like death by cancer. but in historical, it's a genre where you know there's no shortage of dead fathers or dead siblings, but
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: It has also been cathartic and and healing to, and that's what I kept saying, you know, because I came to Bookstagram thinking like I'm just gonna read and I'm reading to heal, and then I was writing to heal. And so, like, I think seeing this mirror for things that I was feeling in the characters, I mean, we know that that's why we love to read, right? That human connection. So I just really fell back in love with it, and I'm so thankful that that like that spark of reading, that sparking. Of writing, like waited until I was ready to return to it. And I just feel so
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: grateful for that. That's like one of my whys that I come back to when I'm like, God, why do I have to keep editing right now? Or something, you know, like, so
Andie James: Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
Sri: yeah, that's a very like windy journey. But yeah, sometimes I'm like, I can't believe I waited so long to put out my first historical. But I'm so glad I I did because now, you know, I I see myself writing it for a long time and hopefully people want to keep reading it for a long time.
Andie James: And I hope you are because I love your writing and I think we do need your characters and we need more representation. But well let's talk about the actual book that we're here to discuss. I mean not that I don't want to talk about you, but so I had heard you mention, so Sri I I don't even know honestly how We became friends. It was just, you know, authors chatting in the historical romance space.
Sri: Those are like the best friendships where like I'm like, I actually can't remember when like you weren't in my life and we weren't friends, you know?
Andie James: I I d I don't know. I just, you know, in the last three years as I've entered kind of this world of historical romance and connected with other authors, you just you meet people in different ways. And it's so funny because I feel like a lot of my closest friends now I've never met in person because we just exist in this world through videos like this and whatever. But so Sri is also part of my writing group now and so I don't know. But I'd heard you mention this book a few times. And I remember it was a couple months ago or something, and you were talking about rereading it for just like a comfort reread. And I was like, you keep talking about this book. So we need to talk about it on the podcast. So I think I know, having read it now and knowing you, why this book is something that you love so much. But can you just tell us a little bit about like what is it that keeps bringing you back to this book?
Sri: Yeah, so there's a few different things. I think that given the two lead characters' positions and status in society, so Diana's a countess in her own right.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: and Bey is, you know, he has this like really like shadowy, like mythical almost persona.
Andie James: Well let's I sorry, I just told you to tell us why you like it, but maybe we should do a brief synopsis first. So people are like, what the heck are we talking
Sri: Yeah yeah yeah we can do that. We can do that.
Andie James: about? So you know this book better than I do, but I'm gonna try to summarize this a little bit. so Devilish, it's actually the final book in a series about the Malloren family.
Sri: So it's in the middle. She Jo Beverley has Mallorens and Friends, which is her whole series. And again, I love family series. Obviously, I'm like writing one of them. but there's like I think it's 13 books. I have a couple left to read. The first five
Andie James: see the way I saw it broken down our website was she had this in a group of five that was like the siblings. So this is the last in that group. And then it goes on to like include other people connected with the family. Okay. So
Sri: Yes, she has the siblings first. Yes. And then she moves into like the and friends. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Andie James: but yeah, so it's it's this whole kind of world she created around this family, the Mallorens. And Bey, our main character, short for Beowulf, which I love.
Sri: I know. I know. It's so dramatic. I y that's one of the reasons I love it.
Andie James: It's so dramatic. yes. So he is a Marquess and I wow, I'm blanking on his actual title right now because they don't say it Rothgar. Thank you. Yes, he's
Sri: Lord Rothgar. So mm-hmm.
Andie James: the Marquess of Rothgar. and the it's you know, w obviously we're kinda getting the you know, when they introduce the family, I can tell that we've already like seen their stories and how they've fallen in love, but it does make me interested to kind of go back and see the way that he is portrayed in those books because he's very
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: much this like the backbone of the family, right? And helping Yeah.
Sri: And she's written it that way. Like in her in her author's note, I think she says that like you see his story or like you see him present in all of those siblings
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: stories. And so, you know, and you also see that throughout the rest of the series too in the other books that I've read too. Like he's always kind of pulling the strings, you know, behind the curtain.
Andie James: Yeah. Yes. He is the Marquess. He's the one who needs to be in control. Like Sri mentioned power a lot because we're gonna talk about power and control. but so he he's our main lead, and then our our female main character, his his co lead, Diana. as Sri just mentioned, she is a countess in her own right. So she is one of those kind of rare instances where as a female she was able to inherit because there was not a male. she was the only child, there was not a male child. and so she inherited the title when her father died. so she's a woman with a lot of power. And the reason this book works, and the reason I like all the dynamics, is because like the conflict is essentially that they have both said that they're never gonna marry for different reasons, but that's like super legit. So for Diana, it's
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: like if she marries, like yeah, she still technically is the countess, but because of we know how the the world worked at the time, like essentially her husband would then really be the one in control, right?
Sri: Yeah. Yeah, she has a great line where she's talking to Beys' sister, and I I put this in my notes of like things I liked. and you know, Bey's sister is like, Well, if you marry, like you'll still be the countess. And she's like, But I wouldn't be the Lord. And so she's very aware of the fact that and you know,
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: and this is mentioned in her point of view chapters and Bey's as well, that like You know, we've I think we've talked about things like the marriage acting culture, like under the law, the husband and wife are one person and that person is the husband. And so
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: she really is cautious about even just, you know, as we'll get into like her explorations around like still having desire and and interest in physical relations and things like that. Yeah.
Andie James: Yes. Yes. So she's determined never to marry because she wants to keep the control and take care of her people and just all very legit reason, right? I should also say that this book takes place in like seventeen sixties sometime. So
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and it was written in two thousand. So I
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: think that's important because there's a few problematic things, but I also think it's very progressive for its time.
Sri: I agree too. And that's something that really spoke as well. Like I said, I think when I was talking
Andie James: Yeah. So we'll talk about
Sri: about, there are definitely some problematic things, but a lot of the
Andie James: There are.
Sri: like really frank discussions are, you know, just refreshing because I'm like, these are themes that like I still am thinking about, you know, for better, for
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: worse.
Andie James: But it's very, I think, progressive in the way that it engages looking at really just kind of these ideas of desire and kind of possessing your sexuality, I guess, and also consent, which we'll talk about as well. But but yeah, so it's 1760s. and because Bey is kind of powerful, he really has an important role in the king's court, which is important. And this is the king and queen that we see in Bridgerton. Okay. So just
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: I don't know if that helps or not, but and this is it's also important that this is just kinda after one of the many conflicts that England's had with France that has just been resolved.
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: But it's prior to the French Revolution, it's prior to the American Revolution. Okay. So we're just we're on the brink of that, but it hasn't happened yet. but Bey Rothgar, he Yes.
Sri: Sorry, I just wanted interject too. I think like a big part of this, and we'll get to dissecting Bey's character, but you know, the the fact that he's sort of the lead of his family, like with his younger siblings, and then the way that he also manages the king, because the king is younger
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: than him, is really interesting to me. again, like he has a lot of power, but there's he likes to shield a lot of that. Like he is not someone that needs to put all this on display. Like he's not you know, rakish in the ways where you might see somebody that's really clamoring for attention. And and that sort of like icy needing to keep everything controlled kind of thing is what I think is really compelling about his character.
Andie James: Yeah, it's interesting. But his reason for never wanting to marry, even though he is a Marques, he needs to, you know, worry about errors and passing on the family line and all of that. but he when he was young, so all his siblings, he has four siblings who were married in the previous books, and we meet them all in this book, they all come from a different mother. So and it sounds like she was a pretty wonderful woman. She's since deceased, but but she but Bey's mother had Bey and then had another child. He had a little sister, and she went mad. She went a little nuts and she ended up killing his little sister and he witnessed it.
Sri: Just in interjection to say, like, I don't think this is, you know, covered in the book as much, but it's another way where I think like, you know, it's interesting to think about how things like postpartum depression and you
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: know the stress of motherhood are I don't think Jo Beverley touches on it a ton with his mother, or at least in that kind of language. But it does show up, you know, in other books as well through the series. And, you know, it's something he grapples with and other people in his family because it, you know, really changed the course of their family. But I find that interesting too. Like I think that she, you know, is bringing up something that's worth discussing. And I don't know that I've seen a
Andie James: Yes, for sure.
Sri: ton of that in historical romance, but I would love to, you know.
Andie James: Yeah. and so then I don't remember I think she then kills herself too. I don't remember if it said, but I know she she she she kills the baby. She kills the baby and then she dies. And so and
Sri: Yes, yes, yeah, yes.
Andie James: he he like witnessed this. He was like five and
Sri: I think it was also like there was a th it was like scarlet fever or something, right? 'Cause there his like his parents and then, you know, he was me he was supposed
Andie James: maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: to like stay away and that also like ate at his conscience too that he couldn't like go and save people. And his broth his other brother was sick as well, brand.
Andie James: Yeah. So this has yeah, this has hugely shaped him, obviously. Like huge early life trauma. but he
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: is just determined that he will not have a child because he doesn't wanna have any chance of passing on mental illness to to any child. He does not want that to continue. And so he's relying on his brother and his brother's child to then take on. the title. and he's just adamant. He will never marry. He will never have children. and so it's they're very legit reasons that they both have for not wanting to marry. but then there's it gets really complicated really quick because of gender dynamics, power dynamics. She had petitioned the king to be able to take up her family seat in Parliament and the House of Lords and he was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're a woman like and basically like kind of saw it as you're stepping out of your place and
Sri: Yeah. And she recognized herself in a
Andie James: we need to get you married and so it
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: gets really complicated really fast. There's also people trying to kill Bey because of his influence with the king, has to do with it's really complicated, but it gets into the dynamics again between England and France and trying
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: to see what was all going on there. but basically that's our setup. And then they end up getting kind of being forced to work together. she
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: has to go meet the king. He wants her to get married, she's trying to find ways to avoid it. Bey's trying to help her, and he essentially has said, like, if you really can't get out of this, I'll marry you because I'll kind of
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: let you be as much as possible. But this is gonna be a marriage and name only. The problem is they're wildly attracted to each other,
Sri: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andie James: and she's very much like I'm kinda like all my friends are getting married and all that like and I'm very
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: attracted to this man and I have these desires and I wanna know what physical
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and romantic love is all about and
Sri: And she knows enough about him to say like he's I mean he's a threat to her, like in a way like your crush might be a threat to you. But she is really drawn to the fact that like he has no need to take what I have and he's gonna let me have what I have. And I find
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: that kind of like that initial just respect and being able to say, like, I see you as an equal is so I mean it's attractive to me. Like I I like that that they see
Andie James: It is a practice.
Sri: They see each other. I I agree. I'm like, yeah, I want to be
Andie James: In today's present time. Yeah.
Sri: seen as competent in my own life. Like that's amazing. And at for that time it was amazing too. So that's something that like really speaks to what I like to see in romance.
Andie James: So, anyways, that's a brief synopsis about some of the main points. I mean, we could go on and on because there's a lot
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: in this book. I will say, I told Sri this. We've been emailing. I did really enjoy this book. I see why she loves it. I love a lot of the the themes that it touches on, the the the power dynamics, the commentary on gender, all these pieces. But for some reason, it just didn't all I didn't love it. I didn't not like it. I love what it's doing. But for some reason I just didn't finish the book and be like, I love this book. And I'm I'm still figuring out why. I think part of it a little bit was pacing. I'm not gonna lie.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: it it dragged in the middle for me. but I, you know, and there was a whole we don't need to go we can go into it because it's symbolic, but there was this whole part with an automaton, which is fine. I don't mind automatons. But it was they kept talking about how very
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: realistic like little child. And it just creeped me the hell out. And every time they talked about it, I'm just picturing this like
Sri: I know.
Andie James: creepy doll that's like, I don't know, it just
Sri: No, I mean it is it is like the the like porcelain doll in the attic and like I Necessarily a horror person, but I like a little element of like psychological gothic flavor. And so it's like dark enough for me because if you have internal turmoil and you have internal angst, you're gonna have some like it's a weird book. Like you're gonna have some weirdness, you know. So when you were saying that, I was like, this is so funny to me because yes, there were times I was like, talking about the Avatar, but like I just sort of let that
Andie James: Talking about? Yeah.
Sri: go. I was like, well. You know, like I said, it's it's like Hamlet and his skull, right? Like you get the
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: symbol, you get the obsession, and you're like, Well, they're gonna just have to like get back to this. But yeah, and that's fine because
Andie James: Ha ha ha
Sri: well, just hearing you talk about like how how strange you think it is, is even funnier because for me, like I think I said this in my review at one point. I'm like, I feel like she wrote this book specifically for me. Like it just hits on all the things that I like, and I'm like, I don't know what that says about me, but it was doing it for me, and it still is
Andie James: And I love that it does it for you. And I wanted to love this because I know you love it.
Sri: Please.
Andie James: and it just I don't know. I just like I said, all the elements were there. It just I don't know, for some reason. And it's not I did not dislike it at all. yeah.
Sri: Yeah. No, obviously there's a lot to talk about, but I get it. And there's parts where, you know, I think like one of the things we were talking about in terms of some of the old school things, like Diana's attack, like there's a lot there that
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: I'm like, whoa, this is kind of heavy. And like I don't know that I wouldn't necessarily handle it like this, but you know.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah. There's a point where she's literally like seconds away from being raped. So it's like, well, and I mean I would
Sri: Yes, yes, it's a it's a lot.
Andie James: argue in a way she well, she's already been assaulted, but it's yeah, yeah, it is happening. Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I still talk about it. I mean it's still an attack, like she was, you know, kidnapped.
Andie James: Yeah. So it's it gets a little little it goes more into detail than I feel like a lot of books being written today would.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: And part of me is like, I applaud the the bluntness and the the ability to go there. But I think maybe it's just 'cause we're worried about like you know, content warning kind of thing. Like this could be really triggering to some people, but like yeah. Yeah.
Sri: Yeah. Yes. It's a different. Yes, definitely. And I think like also with the heavier like court elements and like that sort of things seem like very and and we can talk about this theme too, but things seem like, nothing's happening. And there's a lot happening like in the background. And it's interesting because like, yeah, that's not the sort of thing, it's not like I need books to always take place at court. It's the more It's just the like pulling strings and the sort of consistent
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: flips and power that I find really interesting.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: but yeah, I will say that like that's something she definitely focuses on. Jo Beverley herself, I think, has said in one of her author's notes, she likes writing some of those things. And I do find those discussions interesting because they all, you know, different characters at different points, like have a hand in sort of shaping a lot of these politics and like are very close to the king. And so There's a lot of, you know, attention on that and interest in that, and I find it Interesting to see how they sort of do the self serving while also trying to do like what's for the greater good. and I think this is something kind of about like Georgian romance in general. Cause like I think Elizabeth Hoyth does this well in Maiden Lane. I'm reading Anne Stewart's Rufless right now, and there's like elements of some of this, like Georgian romance is not afraid to get a little dark, a little body, like there's a little bit more of like feeding. the darker impulses and the id that I find I don't know again what that says about me, but I find it really interesting from a psychological perspective, certainly. And so I think that's why again it it's compelling to me to sort of and I that's what they're struggling with, right? Like both Diana and Bey have positioned themselves as like We are going to resist, which is kind of an inactive stance for their characters for the whole book. And yet they're presented with like this temptation all the time. Like they they acknowledge directly their desire for each other, which I'm like
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: hot. You can talk about things really frankly. Like, I'm into that. Exactly.
Andie James: Yeah. Open communication is it's good. It's good. Yeah. Well, and I loved I think you brought this up in some of the notes you shared with me, but like I I mentioned I feel like this book is kind of ahead of its time a little bit in the way it discusses consent because
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: she's she's really like you know, we c we can come together. I can have this experience and that can be it. And he's like, Mm, really? You know, can't can you just have just you know
Sri: And she like at the start of the book, his sister has been doing some work to like get these pamphlets out there. And she's like, you know, cause it 'cause that's interesting too. Like I love the whole like having to control your reactions around like your entire family being there and they're like We've already clocked that like the two of you, you know, have been making eyes at each other. And so his sister has basically conversation with each of them to sort of like intervene. And like they're both very clear on what's happening. They're like, like I'm just being told off. Like, and of course that's only gonna make me want this more. So
Andie James: Right.
Sri: she gives Diana a pamphlet and and Diana has like some experience with things, you know, through her own explorations. But then there's reading material and you know, she's been doing her own reading. So she's like, she Definitely naive in a lot of ways that she and Faye sort of butt heads about because there's an age difference, because she, you know, was in his view silly to try and get her role in the House of Lords, and that's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: started this whole mess and brought attention to her. So now she has even less freedom than what she had. There's a great line where she's like, Or he he's like, Yeah, I'm trying to return you what you have now. And he's like, But not what I had an hour ago. He's like, What you had an hour ago is like a false idea of what you have. You know, you couldn't
Andie James: Yeah. Right.
Sri: just run free. Like you weren't gonna have unchecked power, even if you're in the north. And I find the north-south thing really interesting too.
Andie James: Yeah, yeah, 'cause her her holdings, her estate, her earldom,
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: is in the north and there's a lot of conversation about having to go south to London and to the king and kind of this
Sri: Yeah, and that it's sort of like this this more like refined, like quote unquote tamed court life of London and the sort of friction that they have. The wilds of the north. Exactly. Right. So I find
Andie James: Yeah. The wilds of the north. Yes. Yeah.
Sri: that, you know, of course it speaks a lot about their characters and Bey being very controlled and Diana having some impulses that he finds immature because Of her frustrations as a woman, which like I think she holds it together pretty well. Like, I'd be mad about a lot of things that I feel like she did not just, you know, start popping off about.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: and I think, right, it has to do with, you know, her age, her gender, what power
Andie James: Mm.
Sri: she thinks she has. And there there's an interaction that, you know, prior to this book. they have because I'm just gonna talk about this briefly because I think it's it's sort of it's mentioned in different ways and I think it might be kind of important to their characters, but his brother Brand married her cousin in the prior book and that relationship was interesting too. She Rosa wants to, you know, she needs to have like an heir to her husband's title in order to kind of maintain the properties and stuff and the new like heir that's gonna be coming in because her husband's like sick at that point is, you know, a bad man and so I forget how Brand ends up there. I'm pretty sure he's just like by the side of the road and they like rescue him. And then she's like, hmm, I wonder if I can like start a relationship with this man that is supposed to be like rehabilitating in my home. And obviously there's like all kinds of ethical concerns there. And so Rothgar understandably is like this woman and her cousin, this countess, have like drugged my brother. and he's trying to like, you know, investigate like, are they gonna like try to kill him? Like, what are they doing? Are they gonna take advantage of him? Again, power dynamics with like, you know, assault and rape and things like that. and so anyway, he goes to like confront. And like rescue Bran. By this point, he and Rosa are just like, We're good, like, we love each other. And but
Andie James: It's fine, yeah.
Sri: like no one else has gotten the memo. So then Diana like manages to like get the upper hand because she pulls a pistol on him. And like he has never had someone, you know, yeah, challenge
Andie James: Challenge him that way.
Sri: him that way and just succeed in like pulling the wool over his eyes, right? And like she also is in disguise, like as Rose's maid through a lot of the book. he wasn't watched to that. So both of them start the book in a way where they're coming together for this family wedding already on guard because she's like training her fencing master her you know her the person that's like coaching her in shooting and she's like I cannot let him unnerve me like that because she hesitated before you know shooting I think was the the thing. And Bey is like no one has ever managed to like get this close to me.
Andie James: Ha ha ha.
Sri: In a lot of ways. And she's a woman and she's younger. And so he's like, What am I gonna do about this? So both of them are like, Yeah,
Andie James: Like how dare she I know.
Sri: exactly. How dare she? They're both kind of like on guard already because they feel like they've made a fool of themselves in front of each other.
Andie James: Well, and this book starts. So for me not having read the previous ones, right? So this is my first introduction to him as a character. This book opens and it's kind of funny because it actually opens from his brother's point of view. It doesn't open from Bey's point of view. And so I it took me a second. I was like, Who's the main character here? 'Cause I was like, it
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: is not, I don't think it's the guy who's name like it took me just a couple of pages to clock that like he was not it.
Sri: Yes. Yeah.
Andie James: but like anyway, it was just interesting. but it starts with like him in a duel with a pretty skilled person.
Sri: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Andie James: it's and then so it's kind of like you're already seeing this like challenge to him in a way.
Sri: Yeah, and he's aware of it. Like that's the thing too, is that he's like calculating the steps. I find that interaction with him and his brother Bright, especially on this read, like it was something that was more fascinating to me because there are a lot of friction because Bright was like I I can't remember if they shared the same mother or not, but there's like some friction between like who should have had the title and who shouldn't, or something like that, where like they used to butt heads about, you know, who was gonna have this power.
Andie James: Well, they they don't have the same mother as how I read it. but
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: Bright is the next in line if
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: he if Bey does not have a child and so basically it's gonna fall then on Bright's son and Bright doesn't wanna put that pressure on his son.
Sri: Right. So there's yes. And that's what I thought was really interesting too, because like Bright is very obvious about being like. Why will you not marry to help me in this way and to help my son? And they have a very like again frank conversation about Bey being like, well, one of your options is to give me the child. Or like, you know, I could just go now. And like, you know, he's like, Do you thirst for the Marquisette? And he's like, no, I don't. I need you to like, he's like, I need to like, you know, you need
Andie James: Yeah. It's like I don't want it.
Sri: to get a grip and like get married. That's what I want. So they, that's the friction that I found like super interesting because Bey up until this point is someone who's, and you see this in the book too. He's a protector. He's willing to go to all
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: lengths for his family, but this is the one line that he will not cross. And you know, with a brother that he's like the closest to, Bright's
Andie James: Yes. Yeah.
Sri: super frustrated about that. He's like, what
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: do you mean that like this is all of a sudden what you can't do? You know? The whole like the mouth and all things are possible. Like he is used to removing obstacles. So like this
Andie James: Yeah. Well it was interesting too that they Yeah. Right.
Sri: is a place where he's like, what why was the line?
Andie James: Mm-hmm. But I think that initial kind of opening with the duel at first was like, what is this? But it it does a couple things because one, it shows us that there is a real threat to Bey because this has kind of been set up. we find out that the guy he's dueling is very skilled, and it was someone prompted him into doing this essentially because they wanted to see if they could kill Bey. and this part of this kind of overall plot that we got of someone trying to take his life and and he's he's keen to it. He's like he's like I think there's something else going on here. But he's pissed because it is kind of the more he again, he's used to being in control. He's used to not being bested except by Diana in the previous book, which they mention a lot in this one.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and so, you know, before when he's dueled, like it's always like he's masterfully kind of just been in control the whole time. But because this was intentionally a skilled person to try and match him, to try and kill him, he had to exert like a lot more effort than he usually does. And so
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: he's mad that he had to show publicly this side of himself that he likes to keep hidden, right?
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: It's like he's shown both the the the extent of his mastery that he is very good at this, but also that like he's more human and he couldn't just be the polished. I'm just in control and I'm gonna smack this down. And I think that tells us so much about him.
Sri: Yeah, even Bryant's like, you know, hey, that was close. And Bran says that at some point too. He's like, from what I heard, like that was close. And so it is like that's the first sort of You know, because the the incident with Diana was in the prior book, but this is the first place where you see immediately, like I think even if you haven't read the books right away, you know, they talk about the Eminence de War like the Dark Marcus. Like you can tell that this guy has this like smoke and mirror kind of persona. He nobody knows that much about him. They know he's powerful. He's sort of pulling all these strings. at some point Diana's like, Are you a secret agent? He's like, No, but I employ a lot of shadowy figures. Like he likes to keep his power.
Andie James: Right.
Sri: In the background, in a way where like people know it, but they don't know the full extent. And he and he had to reveal himself. And you know, like you said, this is the first place where we see that there's like a chink in the armor, and he is, you know, he's cracking in a way, and he's becoming human, like he is cracking through the whole book. And like, I do love to see a man break, I love to see a man cry in romance. Like, again, I don't know what that says about me, but I I find it like
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: So compelling to take like any kind of like really uptight, like restrained, controlled, starchy character and just see them struggle with with things unraveling,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know.
Andie James: Yeah, but it's really interesting because he always wants to be in the protector position. Like that is his thing because he couldn't protect his sister, right? And so it's like this very
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: and but there's a several times in the book where Diana protects him and he almost can't handle it. Like it's like he can't handle it.
Sri: No, he definitely cannot handle it. Yeah. He and he he again, like they speak really directly about it where he's like, I think you've forgotten like who's in the role of who's protecting who. And at one point she's like, I have
Andie James: Right.
Sri: the instinct to protect. And he's like, Well then we're likely to trip over each other because I mean he's getting like
Andie James: Right. It's like we're gonna butt heads 'cause we both
Sri: Yes. He's irritated. He's like, no, like you have to let me help you in these ways. Like, you know, when we're training her for court. And he's like, yeah, it's okay. Like, don't show me that you can rise from your curtsy. Like you have to let me do that. You know, like this is not a place to
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: to act unwise. And he's very like, you know. He will plan out all the chess moves before making a move and Diana's more impulsive in certain ways. And so that's part
Andie James: I usually.
Sri: of the friction too, where he's like, you are gonna you have to be careful because we cannot be forced into this like marriage and name only. It's gonna be a disaster like for both of us because we are really into each other.
Andie James: Well, and that planning though, sorry, my brain's linking back now to where I was trying to go a long time ago and then we diverted, but that is fine. No, it's
Sri: That's okay that happens to me all the time.
Andie James: okay, that's fine. But I was talking about consent because in the scene where they do come together, this is actually after Diana has saved him because they've been ambushed on the road
Sri: Yes. Yes.
Andie James: south to go to London to meet the king. And she ends up having the the the hero shot that ends up Killing the last bad guy so that they themselves cannot be killed.
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: And it's the first time like she's killed someone and she's
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: kind of shaken by it. So they have this moment of like passion of the afterviolence. It's like you're heightened and you're you need, you know.
Sri: I know.
Andie James: Anyways, and he understands what's going on, she understands what's going on, but they're like, Okay, yeah.
Sri: Yeah, he just says it. He's like she he like can tell and I have to just like plug this line because it still, like I said, lives like rent-free in my head. and so he's, you know He's like, the seats in my coach, like fold down into a bed. And she's like, what? And he's like, well, just so you can like rest and like recuperate. And then she's like
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: looking at him, you know, it's like, I want to jump phones right now. And he's like, Yes, it happens. He's like, I know it happens sometimes after violence. And I was like,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: I cannot believe that he actually just like said it like that. And he's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: like, you know, he's like rubbing his thumb over her lip or something. I'm like, sir, this is too much for me. And I'm just reading the book. Like, I'm about to compose.
Andie James: That's which I know. So it's later it's later that night. They're at the inn and they're giving in after a lot of conversation, whatever, of like this is our one time. And but they're kind of i and it's kind of at first they're gonna like do
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: everything without like fully doing the Deed, right? Because it's kind of like, well,
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: let's experience passion, but we can't cross that line because it'd be too much. And he's I can't remember exactly what he says, but there's some moment where they're they're getting hot and heavy. And he's like, you need to decide right now. He's like, because you
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: cannot he's like, you have to decide before we go into this if we're gonna cross that line officially or not, because you can't decide in the moment, because you won't be able to like I can't remember how he phrases it, but it's basically like he's saying
Sri: I remember and it w and it's so like in it that's a thing that you sort of see like again with that like violence scene in other scenes too. Like he is maybe not comfortable, but he's sort of like the interesting part about that is like she's in what would be like the typically masculine role, right? Like she has to like work
Andie James: Okay.
Sri: off her energy after this like violent thing, and he's like fine acknowledging that because he also knows what that feels like. They talk about like, you know, the sort of like need for him to sort of like resolve. conflict by like has to sort of kill the bad guy and she like thwarts one of those chances or something. So it's very much like, you know, that the alpha sort of energy. But at the end, you know, again, they're acknowledging like, you're just like speaking in under the effect of danger is what he tells he it's what he tells Diana when she comes to him. And then she's like, and are you not? And he's like, well why do you think that I'm letting you sit here, you know? So
Andie James: Yeah, what do you think? I let you into my room. Why do you Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: Exactly. Which he which is a very clever way of like he never will directly just be like, Yeah, me too. He's gonna sort of like say, You can take the implied meaning, because again, he has to think keep those things close to his chest. Yes, but when they are negotiating like the consent part,
Andie James: keep that upper hand, yeah. But yeah, but it's so Yeah.
Sri: he you know He's like, you have to decide now if we take the safe path or not. And he's like, so you won't be able to stop otherwise. And he's like, no, I will stop. I love that, you know, he it this isn't a thing that's gonna like, I'm not gonna be so swept away that I'm not gonna be thinking about this, which is also something that she she wants him to be swept away and be more human, but he's like, No.
Andie James: Right. No.
Sri: and he's like, it's just not something you can decide in the heat of the moment. And I thought that that was also great. Yeah,
Andie James: He's like, you're not gonna be logical because you're gonna be swept up in these feelings.
Sri: exactly.
Andie James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I loved it. It was great. But
Sri: Me too.
Andie James: and there's something I mean, we've mentioned her saving him, but another piece that is commented on a lot, and he's trying to like teach her how to mask this in terms of being able to please the king and stuff, is that she she's very competent. And I think because of her role, she has trained, like like you've alluded to. in all these kind of what are normally the manly pursuits. So like she is a crack shot. She knows how to fence. She's very assertive with her opinions. And this is all the stuff that he's saying. Like you cannot show this. You need to be the demure female who is, you know, saying, yes, I do need the guidance of a husband and stuff. And but it shows how much he understands the game that needs to be played, for lack of a better word, in terms of those court politics.
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and in some ways it's like
Sri: And he and he understands like that it's hard for her. Like at one point she says,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: I resent on your rely on your protection. He's like, it's a universal experience for like my siblings somewhere else. Like he knows. Just very direct then about saying that like, yeah, I can do this because I'm a man. You can't, like, you can't show that you understand Greek and Latin and like you can't rise from your own curtsy. And like he
Andie James: Right.
Sri: understands the frustration, but he's also like, this is if you want what you want, which is not gonna be what you originally wanted, because that's never gonna come to you. But if you want to maintain what you have and you don't want to get married to me. This is what I can do for you. And you're gonna have to kind of get on board with the fact that, like, let's be practical about this. You're gonna have to do this in order to get what you want. Like, can you keep that in mind? Or are you gonna react really like instinctively about certain things? So, like those discussions are interesting because they just see a lot about each other. Like they do see a lot
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: about each other's behavior. And I find that interesting because they don't keep it to themselves. Like they will just call each other out on
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: that stuff, you know?
Andie James: Well, it was interesting as I was reading it because I kept going back and forth between being part of me was like impressed that he understands all this and like he knows how to play the game and get her what she wants. and he's willing to do that for her and help her. And but then the other part of me was like, God, stop telling her to suppress who she is. Let her shine, let her be these, you know, and it was kind of like
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: I kept going back and forth where I was like pissed and I was happy. But the thing is, like, I think the reason it frustrated me so much is that That is life. We're constantly
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: within our, Like like I I was thinking I think about it in the context of not to go off on a tangent here. I'm we're talking about a book, but Sri and I both self-publish our books. And there
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: is a lot of decisions that you have to make that you've maybe never even thought of before when you are trying to publish and sell and market your books. Because we live in late stage capitalism and it is a hellscape. And I am constantly battling with myself. And now AI's entered the picture, so but it's like I hate that I am beholden to Amazon
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: to sell my books to but it's like how much are you willing to play the game to get what you want
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: and need because there's some part of you that has to compromise a little bit because if you are going to just to use the analogy of this book, and sorry, I'm going off now, but like if I'm gonna be Diana and I'm gonna embrace all these things about me and say, no, I'm going my own way, you may end up losing the thing you really want. And like so
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: for me it's like what where and how am I willing to compromise what I'm doing in order to put my books out in the world. Otherwise They may never be discovered, they may never be read, I may never make enough to be able to have the money to invest in and publish another book.
Sri: Mm.
Andie James: Anyway, I I I just I I think I was so frustrated because I see these same conflicts in many aspects of life.
Sri: Yeah. And far be it from me to defend a man, but I am gonna, I'm gonna jump in on Bey's behalf here because he does
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: say in the coach, you know, when they get sort of fatigued, where she's like, I think you must really want to marry me because, you know, we're giving up. And she does sort of joke at one point. She's like, maybe I should just do that to like make all these women tear their hair out. And he's like, Don't, like, I'm gonna be really bad to you. but he says, he's like, You're just an extraordinary woman in in some sort of way, and she's like, You know, is that a compliment? And he's like, Don't beg for compliments. And she's like, Can't you say that extraordinary in like a positive light or an attractive light? And he's like, Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. And so that's when they like kind of talk about like that elephant that's sort of in the room. But, you know, he'll give her that. He'll call her Iron Hand, right? Like he knows he's like, You're still that like warrior maiden of the north. And like he talks about
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: that, you know, he's like, You have to sort of surrender and like trust me if we're gonna, you know, do this at the end. Yeah.
Andie James: Yeah. Well, and that's what makes it okay. And that's what redeems it is that he's telling her you need to suppress
Sri: Like he sees her even if there's strategy.
Andie James: these things, not because I don't want you to be them. He's
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: saying you need to do it in order to be able to like have the best outcome of this crappy situation. But I see you, I understand this.
Sri: Yeah. And other people aren't gonna see it. They're not gonna appreciate it. So it's like why show that next.
Andie James: Yeah. But he's like, I respect it. I want you to still be that person. He's not trying to like ultimately change her. And that's why I'm like, okay.
Sri: No. And they talk about that too. Like at the end, you know, she where they're kind of getting their their resolution. She's like, You adore me exactly as I am. And or you like me exactly as I am. And he's Yeah, I adore you exactly as you are. And so I think that there's something, I don't know, to me, it's like you're kind of facing it together. Yes, she has more of a risk. But you know, even when they're talking about she's like, like I'll still see you at court. And he's like, Did you think that I was gonna abandon you? Like that hurts him a lot, you know? And and
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: even at one point he's like, I have to get back. Like I just wanna breathe the same air that she's breathing. Like this man is gone,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know? And like
Andie James: yeah.
Sri: There's there's distance that he's keeping because he trusts that she can do what she needs to do. Like when they're talking about some of the shadowy things that he's doing, he's like, I would not be telling you these things if I didn't think you could keep a secret. So there's just that again, that mutual trust, that respect. He's, you know, teaching her. How to do this strategically, but he's not doing it for her, right? Like, yes, he has to lift her from the curtsy, but he's like, I trust you to be able to manage this. Like they come up with a code at like her, you know, creation of
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: this code for how they're gonna talk about the king and queen. She's like, I could spy, it would just be gossip. And so, you know, there's stuff like that where he is giving her freedom and he is letting
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: her sort of do these things that are more like mentally interesting and like you know more of that like engaging part of being a queen's attendant other than just like she's the best people on the survey like how much of a lady are you like are you quote unquote normal you know so there's there is this part of like being on display but he does remind her and I you know he's like I see you and I know who you are it's just one of those things where like I don't know
Andie James: Mm.
Sri: it reminds me of something like the Hunger Games where it's like you have to hold on to like the core of who you are, right? So he will strategically tell
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: her Or, you know, when she needs it, he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna share this secret with you and like we'll talk about the work that I'm doing and like You know, don't be conventional. Disappoint me, Diana, 'cause like he knows that she has views that aren't conventional.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: And you know, the whole Iron Hand thing. Like he he really he will give her those things when he sees that she hates it. And she doesn't always have to ask for it either. Like
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: he'll know. So again, I I don't know. Like I said, I do not defend men like this, but there's just something about Bey that I
Andie James: No, it's okay.
Sri: like I just understand where he's coming from in a way where
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: Like I get that you want to give her like everything and you can't, and you're so used to like holding things back, even from like your
Andie James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: family. Like you have to be cruel and practical with Bright, like your brother that you're super close to, and and his son who you love, and say, like, no, I'm not willing to do this for you. And it's and she recognizes that too. Diana's like At one point, you know, Rose is like, Yeah, I guess like Rothgar's hot if you admire a finely made blade. And she's like, He's not just a weapon, like can't you see how like alone and lonely his life is? Like you do see that through all these things because you're making difficult decisions. you are seen as like cold and that's the persona that he has and she's like, No, that's not the Bey that I see, right? So I don't know. I find that like, yeah, it's just very touching for me.
Andie James: Well and it's interesting too because at one point she kind of keys into the fact that the king is actually basically like she was distracted at one point and agreed to let the king and queen choose who she would marry, like kinda deferring to they know best. Because she was thinking about him. Yeah. And so she's kinda and then she's like, Wait, what did I just agree to? So she's trying to like stall the king, like
Sri: Because she was thinking about Bey and we're talking about Yeah, the king's like, and you wanna get married, don't you? And she's like, Yes.
Andie James: Yeah, and so she's like playing off this whole like, Well, I'd really like to marry someone I love. So like can you give me a little chance to investigate these candidates and like see so she's trying to like buy time, but she
Sri: Yes. Yeah.
Andie James: clues in at some point to the fact that the person the king actually wants to match her with is Bey. And
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: so in some ways it's like a solution to the problems because
Sri: Yep.
Andie James: you're gonna he's gonna say, like the king is gonna say, This needs to happen and they can't really argue with it and then They both can like give in to what they really want. But she's like, but this isn't the way I want it. Like he cannot be forced. And so she's like, he
Sri: Yes, I that. Yes.
Andie James: like it'll never work if he is forced into this marriage. I need to find a way to break through to him to say, It is okay. You can give in. Like you can have a child. You can take this risk. You can, yeah. And so then the mission in the rest of the book,
Sri: You can have love, right? Like I think it's and she says that at one point too. She's like, I just
Andie James: yeah.
Sri: go ahead. Right. Right. It's it's letting
Andie James: It's like making him love her. Well, he already loves her, but you know.
Sri: himself sort of right. And and that's well, I do have more to say about that too, because I I do think there's some interesting things there. But right, I see like that to me is also interesting too. Because I think for characters we see, like, you know, the choice points are like In order to kind of keep the story going, they get what they want, but maybe it's not in the way they want it, or they don't get what they want. Those are the things you have to navigate. And so that's a place where she's like, no, that would be worse than not marrying at all, because we're we're just gonna stick more tightly, or at least he's gonna stick more tightly to the fact that like I can't let myself you know be fully in this with you, and that they were forced to do it. It's like it she doesn't want. his surrender in that way. Like she wants him to want
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: to give this. And it's the same thing for her. And so that adds like another layer to what's going on there. Because like of course there's these like longing looks and like her little like fan signal to say that I love you. I was
Andie James: Okay.
Sri: like, my God, that's so cute.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: But they can't like they cannot let the king actually be encouraged by that because that's gonna cause more problem. So like they have to like keep more distance while they're still sort of like constantly wearing each other. and I think You know, that's just kind of like that's that's heartbreaking. Like it's angsty in a way where it's like you have something within reach. You have something that could
Andie James: Mm.
Sri: be the perfect solution. But again, they talk about him being, you know, Dedalus in the maze. And I think it is one of those things where that's what I find fascinating with my characters. We're like, you know, and him people talk about this with romance all the time. It's like, well, why can't you just have a conversation? Sorry. At that point, like that feels like the most frightening thing to do. So he's built up so many walls.
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: He doesn't see that like This is self-created. He doesn't see that there is a way out. I think that is what happens to people. Like you cling so tightly to what you know. And if you know is this false cage that you've built up, then yeah, that is gonna be what you cling to. So I find that, you know, really interesting. There was something that you just mentioned about
Andie James: I was talking about how she's like, I need you to want this. Like it can't be forced, it can't be
Sri: right. And the sort of like her, you know, the the shift in like she sees it being more possible. Like, okay, my new mission is to like make him see that he deserves these things. I mean at one point she says, like, you know, I just hunger. Like, tell me it's wrong for us to go through life alone. And like that's what kind of breaks him. or like tell me it's right for us to go through life alone. And I just find that like so moving too. because eventually like he does realize through his siblings, through himself that like he knows he's causing her pain. And like that is unbearable compared to causing himself pain. But I think it's interesting too, because sometimes with heroines, like this isn't an arc I always like where they have to be the steadier one. They have to be the one that's like,
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know, convincing the other person to love and love them. And what was interesting about what I wrote, no, no, no, me too. That's
Andie James: I've totally written that though.
Sri: what I was saying. With the Diwali book, like that is exactly what ends up happening. Like, Rachika is the steadier. Person because she has accepted being human. Like she even talks about, like, the way that I tried to solve this problem might not have been the right thing. And he doesn't even let her take that fault. And she's like, it's okay though. Like I can admit when I've made a mistake and I've done something wrong. You can't do that. Like, you don't think that you're even allowed mistakes, or you know, you have the falsehood that you're above them. Like that. Is what makes you fragile. Like that rigidity is what's easy to break. And I think that's interesting, especially when you map it on to like these gender roles, where I think we do see in historical romance, like the heroines have to be the ones that open the alpha male up to love and like they're the softer ones. And so this is maybe a ver, you know, a variation of that, but in a way where I don't feel
Andie James: Yeah. Well
Sri: like any point is losing power. In fact, like
Andie James: Yeah, 'cause how many times have we seen the story where it's like, I refuse to have an heir? Because it's like,
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: I can't carry on the family line, but this is such a different way in which it's set up for the reason why. It's not that
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: like I'm spiting my father who was terrible, which is kinda kinda
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: what I wrote. I mean, I the first book in my current series, Bequeathed, like, my hero West has just inherited his own Marquisate About a Marques here. and he basically like the woman, you know, that he falls for, he just is like, No, my father would have loved her, and I cannot do anything that would please him. And so he's just like,
Sri: But that's human too.
Andie James: Yeah. And so, but it's like, you know, it's this, but this is it's not like I refuse to have an heir, but it's more like I
Sri: Yes.
Andie James: can't do anything that would make my father happy. You know,
Sri: Right.
Andie James: and or or would have. I mean his father's now dead,
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: and it's so it's just the stubbornness that she has to break through. And so there's some real parallels
Sri: Mm-hmm.
Andie James: here. but you know, Jo Beverley does it much more masterly than I do in terms of having kind of like a real legit reason where he is just like scared to
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: of like what could happen. Like there's a legitimacy there.
Sri: And there's a there's a power too in that like you know it the book starts with him talking to Bright about like the countess has like a big house than off our abbey. Like there are certain things that like Diane has more of, has more power in and You know, he's talking to Brand at one point and his other brother about like, well, what if things did pass through like the mother and they took the mother's last name and like titles passed down that way, which is like you think he's in this role of like trying to limit Diana, but his views themselves are not like that. And he talks about like, you know, being instrumental in the in the marriage acts and stuff. And so, you know, you I think like, yes, he he's the one that sort of has to put these boundaries down because Diana's more willing to. move past them. And then ultimately that's kind of what is the shift in opening up to love because she's willing to kind of break those barriers in the heat. So you sort of see the strengths of both of their ways of thinking about things. Like his ability to kind of like put emotion aside and do the thing that needs to be done to achieve the end that is ultimately going
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: to make her happy is important in the beginning. And then her ability to say like Life is risk, right? They talk about that, and which is still something I'm learning. So, you know, it's still important. So, you know,
Andie James: Amen.
Sri: her ability to see that and say, like, again, just say things like, Tell me it's right for us to go through life alone. Like, I don't think that that's what we're meant to do or what anyone's meant to do. Like, this is a right for every human being. And even though she's younger, even though she's naive and less experienced in the ways of the world, where he's like, What you want is child, you're never gonna be in the house of lords. Here's a place where She's right. And her ability to put those rules, those boundaries is what is helpful and important and appreciated, and just part of like their love story. So you get to see each of them have a role. Not to mention along the way where there's all these different flips, but like they're truly two people who are coming together to make a relationship where they still get to be their own people. And the things that
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: make them who they are are really appreciated about each other. And like neither one of them has to. And she
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: says that's she says that too. She's like, I do you feel change? And he's like, Yeah, I'm transformed. She's like, I don't want you to be changed. It's not supposed to happen like that. Like, this isn't meaningful. Yeah.
Andie James: Like I I still want you to be you. Yeah.
Sri: He's like, I'm like, you know, she's like better than like changing in the ways that like all people change when they're in love. And that's what he says. He's like, you're still gonna have to put up with the fact that like I need to be all powerful, I need to be all knowing, like, you know, you can't give me orders. I love that part too, where like when after the end, they're sort of talking about the fact that he's like, We didn't because of course they did not take the safe path. And he's like, if there's consequences, like you have to tell me. And she immediately
Andie James: Mm-hmm.
Sri: like, that's a place where she can be practical. And she's like, No. it would cause him too much pain. you know, we can't acknowledge this child. It's gonna be mine to handle alone, and you'll have to accept that. And he's like, don't give me orders. And she's like, well, don't try to fight me on this. And I I find that wonderful. Because it's I mean, I love like banter and bickering as much as the next person with enemies to lovers, but here's a place where like They're trying to do things out of care for the other person, not just their own interests. And that's creating friction because again, they both have the impulse to protect, the impulse to sort of stand in the way of like, they're too similar.
Andie James: Yeah. They're too similar and so they yeah.
Sri: They're like, let me jump in front of that bullet first. And like then they're both
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: cracking their heads together because they're trying to get there first, you know? So I just find that
Andie James: Right.
Sri: like, I find that because it's like the one place where they're incompetent because it's like motivated by competence in other ways. Like they're they're trying to like. after their hearts, you know.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we could talk forever, but we've already have been talking forever. So to sum up, this was this book has so much great commentary that I feel is in a way ahead of its time. Maybe I'm not giving two thousand enough credit, but you know,
Sri: Ha ha ha.
Andie James: but just you know, in terms of commentary on gender and different roles and power and it's just there's so much great things to say here. So I see why you love this book. I did thoroughly enjoy it. I so appreciate what it was doing. And I am interested to read more because like now I'm like got this taste of this family and just just no creepy child automatons and we're good. I know, I know, but yeah,
Sri: Don't worry, that's that's only a Bey thing.
Andie James: I just I just need to get over it. It just it's seriously every time I pictured it in my head, I just pictured like almost like a Chucky doll and it like creeped me the hell out. But
Sri: That's that's fair. I also think like related to that, like you know, we talked about it's it's the image of like Diana as like the son that like her dad didn't have, their future child. Him as a child that needs to heal. I also
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: find it just so endearing that like his name is Beowulf and he asks her to call him Bey. Like everybody close to him calls him Bey. I'm like, wow
Andie James: I know.
Sri: is so cute. Like that is just a little boy who is scared, like inside, you know, like he's
Andie James: I know. I love it.
Sri: not the dark Marquess you know, like he's he's just scared.
Andie James: I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyways, Devilish by Jo Beverley. There's a lot to dissect. And so if you guys read it, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If not, maybe you will go check it out. like I said, it was totally new to me. Jo Beverley has passed, unfortunately. She passed about ten years ago, but she has quite a rich body of work.
Sri: That's that's another thing that, you know, we didn't touch on directly, but in terms of like why a lot of us write, like it's
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: not really about like leaving a legacy. For me, it's like leaving a fingerprint in the fabric of time to be like, hey, for a while I was here and look at how great that was. And like, especially because I think about grief a lot in my own experience and the way that I write. I just think that's amazing that like even after she's passed, it's like I think that was 2016. So I picked up these books just within the past year. So
Andie James: Yeah.
Sri: you know, and Katherine says this a lot: like the publication day is like the first day in a very long life of book of a book,
Andie James: Yes.
Sri: and you never know when it's going to find someone that needs it. And so
Andie James: You don't know when it's gonna hit, yeah.
Sri: so that was just that's something kind of like you know magical about that too.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah. We can only hope. Well, Sri, thank you so much for joining me and for making me read this not making me, but you know what I mean. Giving
Sri: Yeah.
Andie James: me a reason to read this book. and like Yes, thank you for traumatizing me. No, it's okay. And lace cuffs. We didn't go into that, but I like hate I hate the fashion of this time and the wigs and the my god.
Sri: Thank you for traumatizing me with the automaton. We didn't. We didn't. Well, you know, that's so that's funny to me too. I think it's just, you know, the beauty's armor thing that I talk about and all her rings and stuff, and she gives him a ring.
Andie James: Yeah. Yeah.
Sri: I think it's like it's part of the Georgian like drama.
Andie James: It's very set in the Georgian and it's it's it's great. But so anyways, thank you again for joining me. Everyone, read the Deed with the Duke. Again, I'll have links to info on the anthology that's coming out. I'm very excited for all the stories in that. and I'm really terrible about like plugging my own stuff. So I never go into this, but you guys please if you enjoy this podcast. you know, like it, subscribe, all the things, either on YouTube, on whatever platform and what you listen to that, because it does help in terms of reach and all that. So I appreciate that. I do have a Patreon for this. I haven't done a ton with it. and I don't mention it a lot, but part one of the perks when you join one it just helps support me in doing this. paying for software and all that. but the other thing is whenever I release something you get it an e copy as part of subscribing to Patreon. Like that's the perk. and I also have an upcoming novella. It's coming out October 2nd. It's part of a multi-author series, which you're gonna hear about in a couple weeks because we're gonna do a bonus episode talking about that series. but yeah so if you decide, you know, that you want that, you could subscribe to the Patreon and that could be one way that you could get access to that. and I'm not ready to share details yet, but I do have other stuff coming before the end of the year.
Sri: Ooh, exciting.
Andie James: there'll be details soon, but there's more coming. So it's worth it to look into that. to subscribing to the Patreon and all the link to that and everything is always in in the description under under this episode. So I'm really bad at plugging myself, so I just thought I'd do it today. Please like and subscribe and support this podcast. and I do have upcoming projects if you want to do that. well enough. 'Cause it's gonna be a long episode. Sri, thank you so much again. Devilish by Jo Beverley. Let's go read some more by her. And I I just love all the deep psychology and all this in this book, which I know you do too. So all right. Yeah.
Sri: Yes, I do. Thank you for having me and letting me you know, talk about a story that just really impacted me.
Andie James: Yeah. No, it's great. It's great. Well, happy reading and listening, everybody, and we'll see you next time. Bye.
