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Thank you.
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Hey everybody, it's Mark Patterson in the back again with another great episode of Finding Your Summit all about overcoming adversity and finding your way.
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Before we get into our great guest today, I want to once again remind everybody that I have come out with this book, also the same name of the podcast called Finding Your Summit, How to Build Resilience.
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and faith to rise above life's challenges.
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And we all have challenges and we all have to rise up.
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Otherwise you fall over.
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We're gonna get into that a little bit more today.
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Also, if you want me to come in and blow up your organization with a keynote speech, I do a lot of that.
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I've had a TEDx talk not too long ago and I've been over in Montenegro speaking.
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You can go to my website, www.markpattersonnfl.com and I've got all kinds of content
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located there.
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On that note, let's go to my great guest today, Doug Crandall.
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Doug, how you doing?
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Good, Mark.
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Thanks for having me on.
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I'm not sure if we're both from the home state, but you are residing not too far from where I actually grew up in Seattle, you're up in Bellevue, Washington, and hopefully it's a great day to be in the state of Washington.
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Absolutely, Mark.
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I am.
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I mean, you can barely see it here, but this is actually a picture of my oldest son.
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He was a Husky football manager.
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So I'm born and raised.
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about 20 minutes where you're from.
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Yeah, yeah.
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No, just nothing but wonderful memories.
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You know, actually, this is kind of a side thing, but it is and it isn't because it ties into this conversation.
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About a month and a half ago, I was asked to come up to the University of Washington and speak to the football team, which I did.
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And a lot of what I talked about was the pyramid of success and how I got there and what Coach James taught me.
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I just showed you this book that I'm reading, Thursday Speeches.
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I'll show to anybody who's watching this on Thursday.
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On YouTube, Don James, written by Peter Tormey, Lessons in Life, Leadership, and Football.
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We're going to talk about that here in a minute.
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But I think this is what so much of today's theme is all about, is the lack of leadership.
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And you have a new book that's out there I'm going to promote.
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building or diminishing.
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Yes, sir.
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And so it's such a fascinating topic.
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And there's a lot I want to get into this about this, because either you're moving forward or you're going back.
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It's just pretty simple to me.
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And when you're stuck in the middle, you know, there's nothing worse because you're not doing either.
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And...
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And today, as we talked about before we went live, is so much has to do with the leadership and the lack of and people that really have in the road trip because they don't have been taught because that's not what they did do in school.
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You go through, you graduate, you move on to a role.
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You've been taught how to do that role, which is marketing or creative or marketing.
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or accounting or something, but you've never been taught how to lead not only yourself, but others.
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Right?
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So, I want to talk about that.
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Let's go back and like set this up a little bit and then I'm going to shut up, which is you went to West Pint and I can only imagine what that was like.
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I had an opportunity to go to the Air Force Academy out of high school.
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I wasn't mature enough.
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I was mature enough to understand I wasn't mature enough to actually go do that.
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But you certainly seem to be much more mature than me.
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let's go back to West Point and what kind of effect that had on you in terms of, we'll lead up to this book that you wrote.
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Yeah, Mark, I mean, really two stops at West Point.
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I mentioned that because the second one probably even had a deeper effect, but I went there out of high school.
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I think my dad had gone there, and I think the interesting thing about it is my dad grew up during the Depression.
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I mean, he was seven, eight years old in 1938, 39.
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He grew up in Missouri with a single mom, and so I had heard stories about
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him getting one pair of shoes a year.
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He enlisted as a Marine, went to West Point.
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And the reason I bring all that up is he had almost a romantic notion of West Point because it changed his life and skipped over some of just the things that were really hard.
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It's changed a bit since, since certainly since my dad went there, even since when I went there to focus a little bit away from hazing and more on leader development.
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But it was really hard.
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I was lonely.
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I was across the country.
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And you just, you get put through the grind.
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You're getting yelled a lot that first year.
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So a lot of those things were super hard.
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I mentioned the second part, cause I got a chance to go back there and teach and see it from a different perspective.
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And when I was there teaching in the early two thousands, got to see how, what a huge part reflection is in leader development.
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And I bring that up because you're talking about kind of people just, you know, they do great at their jobs.
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We see a lot of that in the health care industry where a great doctor becomes the chief of a clinic or a chief resident, and they've never been taught to lead.
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And so it's sort of unintentional.
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They're just going through the motions or not really thinking about how they're impacting other people.
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And that second chance to teach at West Point, really the whole place is this laboratory.
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through sports, through summer leadership opportunities, even during the academic year, you're given leadership positions at West Point.
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And really the goal is for you to make mistakes, be thrown in situations that aren't life or death, and then to process what you're learning from those situations.
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And we have essays to that effect in our core leadership class, where you think about what happened this summer, what did I learn from that as a lead?
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Peter.
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Yeah.
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Are you still with me?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, you froze for just half a second.
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Yeah, no, no, I get everything you're trying to say.
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And, you know, I assume, I'm just having a comment on this, even though I'm assuming that you know this and this is kind of what you just said, that you can't effectively lead unless you lead yourself first.
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Yeah.
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And that comes with a whole set of core values in your North store and things like that.
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So comment on that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, in all of these programs we've been doing for a couple of decades now, we start almost everywhere we go.
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It's an immutable part of what we do.
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And we do half-day stuff to six-month stuff.
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But even when we're doing half-day stuff, at least a little bit on what do I believe and why do I believe it?
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What are the four or five things that no matter what, I'm not going to compromise on?
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They're going to be part of who I am.
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A certain way that we treat people or integrity, whatever it might be.
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And we focus on that so much because then the rest of leadership is about the people you're leading.
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You know, does this person, I mean, does this person actually like to be pushed really hard or does this person need to be handled a little bit differently?
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People I think bring so much and think, how am I going to lead without thinking about the people they're actually leading and how they need to adapt each person to adapt to a group or adapt to the situation, what the mission is at hand.
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And so, yeah, that, that first part though, is before you do any of that, locking in, like, what do I believe?
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Why do I believe it?
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How did you get that gig?
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You know, you talked about that second placement in your life.
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First, it was a student and then now as a teacher.
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How did you get that gig?
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Yeah, it's a cool model at the academy.
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About two-thirds of the faculty were,
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are active duty young, you know, 31, 32 year old army officers who've been sent to get master's degrees and come back to teach, come back to teach calculus, come back to teach history.
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I had the great opportunity to come back and teach the core leadership class.
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You apply, it's pretty competitive process for active duty army officers.
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But I was really put onto it, as I mentioned, by my dad, he had gotten out of the army after his initial service commitment in the late 50s.
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But I'd said one thing he wished he'd always done was
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gone back to West Point and taught.
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Um, and it really, for me, was a choice between kind of the same thing, getting out of the army in the late nineties, uh, or applying to teach at West Point.
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So I was given that chance.
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I actually got an incredible chance just two years ago to go back as a civilian, which is not, not as common and not a systemic process.
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I just saw on a buddy's LinkedIn post that they were looking for somebody, uh, literally just for 10 months to come, uh, no moving expenses, just come teach this leadership class for 10 months.
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Cause they had a hole to fill.
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So.
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have had a few great opportunities to go back there and be immersed in the leader development process there.
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And what do you find about today's student compared to way back when we were going?
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Has that changed as the personalities and different kid that's growing up?
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There's so much more, you know, we grew up in an era where there was no cell phones, right?
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There's no notifications, there's no internet, there's, you know, it was all dial up.
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And I mean, the world is just
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you know, even the way we fight war, right?
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With drones.
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I mean, flying these things that look like 747s and they're carrying bombs and there's no pilot on board.
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I mean, it's insane.
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So like, what is that type of kid today that maybe it's the same kid?
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Yeah, Mark, essentially, I think there's probably people who would disagree with me, but I, at least in West Point Service Academy and probably some other places where you got to do, you got to really do really hard stuff.
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I mean, you're, you are getting up at,
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545 every day, pretty much for the entire four years.
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You might be able to push that till 605.
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You're like, but you're getting up, you're going to bed pretty much at midnight.
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You're taking 20 credits a semester.
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I found that they really hadn't changed in my opinion.
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Maybe it's the way I was looking upon them, but I'll take for example,
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United States Army's Ranger School, which I will say immediately I am not a graduate of.
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I did not go through it.
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It's primarily an infantry school, but a lot of non-infantry soldiers go through it.
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But it's 60 days at a minimum out in the woods, in Georgia, in Florida.
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almost no sleep, almost no food, and you get pushed to the brink to get through this army ranger infantry school.
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That hasn't changed.
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I mean, it might have changed a little bit.
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Some people would argue with that, but it really, the structure of that, no food, no sleep, that hasn't changed in decades.
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And so the kids that went through it in the 90s, the kids that went through in the 70s have to be pretty much the same makeup as some of the kids that I taught.
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I just went to a graduation for that school in the spring.
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They went through it this time.
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I mean, I think kids that are signed up to serve the country and do hard stuff like that haven't changed a ton.
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One thing that I did see, I almost point to the culture of the academy rather than the leaders, the young leaders that are there, is the willingness to correct somebody else is probably less than it used to be.
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The school used to be built around crushing plebs with discipline.
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Plebs are freshmen.
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Crushing those freshmen with discipline.
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And there wasn't really a problem of people telling somebody else what to do.
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Kids are a little friendlier now is the way I would put it, maybe a little more social because of their phones, but they were just more hesitant to hold others accountable from what I saw.
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That concerned me a little bit because part of your job when you're a 23-year-old lieutenant is to, if you have to, hold a more experienced, non-commissioned officer accountable.
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But overall, I saw a great group of young men and women that didn't really seem much different to me.
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Yeah, I mean, to me, that kind of, when you talk about that, I go back a little bit to this environment where everybody gets a trophy, everybody gets a ribbon, right?
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So there's either, you know, when you and I were growing up, there's either a winner or a loser.
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And so you either won the championship and this is like little league or you didn't.
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And you didn't, even if you took fifth place, you still didn't get a trophy and a ribbon for participation, right?
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It's just all part of the thing of goal setting and going forward.
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And I noticed a little bit of the same thing at the UW.
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You know, at the end of the day, it gets down to the fundamentals.
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And I'm talking about the football team now.
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And so you still got to work.
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You still got to grind.
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Now they're doing it earlier.
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And maybe it's changed a little bit in terms of all the the the the the access that they have to gyms and coaches and select football and those types of things.
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But I can identify with what you said.
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It takes a certain kind of kid to get into those military.
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You have to have the senators typically write a letter of recommendation and things like this.
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And so whether it's the Air Force or it's going to West Point or something like that, I mean, it's just it does take a special kind of breed of kid of maturity to, I think, for that age 17 to go, you know what?
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I can't wait to go sign up for this thing and get my ass chewed.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Right.
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For sure.
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And then he's throwing like, I think about a couple of the athletes I taught and I got real close to a basketball player who was still going through the same stuff of not getting the playing time he wanted.
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In the meantime, he's trying to get his homework done for, you know, the paper he had to write for my class and just this kid's tough as nails.
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I mean, it gave me hope, honestly, that our future's in good hands, like truly.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So let's go back to the book, Building or Diminishing.
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Why did you write this book?
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Yeah, it's Mark's interesting.
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I think we have four kids.
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We're empty nesters now for the last three years of our youngest son's kind of high school experience.
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He lived with just his mom and I, you know, he's the last one.
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So we got to spend a lot of up close time with him.
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And I just started thinking to myself as I was leading him because parenting is absolutely a leadership endeavor.
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I started thinking as should I say this to him or not?
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Like, does it do him any good for me to say this?
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And it's really kind of
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Unfortunately, maybe for the first, our oldest son.
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And then as you go along, you just learn stuff through experience and reflection.
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But, uh, so I started saying to myself, am I building or diminishing him with, with what I'm saying?
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And if I'm not building him and building, as we get into in the book can mean I'm pushing you because I think you can do better.
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Like I expect more of you.
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It's not, it's not a soft concept, but is there a purpose in what I'm saying?
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And I threw that on a slide one day when we were teaching, really teaching, talking about leading others and meeting people where they're at.
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And it really resonated with the group.
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Um, I laid this in with a, a quote actually from a mentor of mine, a guy named Bruce Brown, um, actually, uh, Jim Mora would know Bruce Brown.
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I think he probably taught Jim when Jim was in junior high and Bruce, uh, a quote I saw he posted on LinkedIn said the most effective leaders
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are unapologetically demanding and relentlessly positive.
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And so I was like, shoot, well, then everything that you're saying should be kind of a combination of those things as a leader.
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And we started to build a keynote out of it.
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And in a six months program that we were teaching in North Carolina a couple of years ago,
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There was a person who came up at the end of the program and said that that question, like think to yourself, am I building or diminishing?
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Ask yourself that when you're leading other people was the most impactful part of our program.
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And we really leave it up to people after six months together to reflect and take their own lessons away.
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What was the most important part of this?
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So.
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I just it just started to stick.
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I saw it sticking with people and decided to build it into a book.
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And it's really a book about my own journey to to aspire to be a builder, to to build this question into my habit of leadership.
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One of the things that
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that I saw and I experienced a lot and I was very blessed and fortunate.
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Through a lot of hard work, but to make it all the way to the top of the rung to be in the NFL.
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And so I got to experience a lot of coaches and it was interesting because going back to what you were saying about your building or diminishing
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there was either positive coaching or negative coaching.
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And like I could have done, I could have had the most insane catch on the field in the last moments under extreme pressure, fans going cuckoo,
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And he'd find the one thing that I did wrong versus just, you know, like build on what we did.
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And by the way, we can also work on this part a little bit and just constantly focus on that.
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And I think what you said is that, and for anybody that's listening to this, and I'm saying this now after running a big part of Sports Illustrated for the last 10 years and over 300 different people within that organization on the team network, is that each and every single person,
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is driven differently.
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And you got to really understand, you know, personalities and what, what are you going to be able to get the most amount of juice over?
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Cause not all personalities like can hear you or respond to you the same way that you want that kind of result on the other side of it.
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A hundred percent Mark.
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And that is it.
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And that's a challenge of the leader either way.
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Right.
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I mean, if, uh, if you're used to being super positive and I thought about this, I coached high school basketball for a number of years, coached my kids, about 20 years of coaching under my belt.
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Um,
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which was another journey of just trying to get better all the time.
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But even in writing this book, I looked back and thought about a couple of players who I was really relationship focused.
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And I was good at building their confidence, but I watched them go into like D1, one of them going to become a D1 college basketball player who became first team all conference in like a mid-major.
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And I saw her coach really push her in a way I think I didn't and realized, huh, like I was being who I thought, like, you know, who I wanted to be.
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I wanted to be building her up in practice.
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But I think she really, in certain ways, that was helpful to her, but she wanted to be pushed as well.
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So it's both ways.
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I mean, it's.
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It's really an important part of leading, like really stepping back and not being about you, but it being about what the people you lead need.
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Well, I think sometimes too, expectations and transparency are key in everything that we're talking about here, right?
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So going up to that player, that example that you just talked about and go, look, I'm going to push your ass like you've never been pushing.
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It's going to come across as like mean and heartfelt, but I'm trying to get you because I think you have that potential to go to X spot, you know, the WNBA or, you know,
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college or whatever that you're talking about.
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And in order to do that, I need to push these certain buttons.
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And so I just wanted to set that expectation up front.
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Are we good?
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Yeah, we're good.
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Great.
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I love that.
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Yeah, I love that.
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It's a wonderful point for sure.
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Just that little thing is a huge difference.
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So kind of let's jump back into to what what, you know, how does our communication land and what to expect?
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Right.
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And you in this book point out that there's some like four, essentially for these four different levels.
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I'll call them and you can you can redefine these here in a second.
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A builder, a driver, a cheerleader or a belittler.
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So that's kind of what we just talked about, right?
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If you're not leading in the right way and it's not positive, then it's negative.
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So it's the opposite of that.
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So builder, driver, cheerleader, and then you knock people down.
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So just walk me through that in terms of how we all kind of communicate, you know, because people that listen to this podcast, and there's quite a few that do.
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I think they, I think just we always pull things out and like you're, you're, you're
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You're asking yourself, say, if you're going in enough effort to go listen to somebody's podcast, and I've been doing this now, you'll be like 310.
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So that's a lot of episodes, right?
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And it's like, what kind of nugget can I extract that's going to make me a better person and a better leader?
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So let's talk about those.
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Builder, driver, cheerleader.
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Be leader.
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Yeah, you bet, Mark.
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And I do this all the time.
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I might overqualify it, but I'm not huge on labeling people.
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I actually say that in the book.
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At the same time.
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this construct like this is how a lot of people think.
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So it's done to be helpful and as a reflective tool and literally say in the book, not to put anybody in a box.
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But I have seen it with some really high level people, some friends who've just sent me text messages after reading the book.
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help people think about where they're at.
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And the two most important quadrants in that grid, I think are the cheerleader and the driver.
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And so it just has two axes.
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And one of them is how we communicate.
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Do we tend to be more building in our communication or diminishing, or are we always telling people that they need to get better, you know, that they're not doing good enough?
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Or are we finding what people are doing right, giving them the confidence and they can get stuff done?
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I would say even to what you just said earlier about that expectation,
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is building type communication.
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I'm going to come up to you and say, Hey, I'm going to be pushing you, but it's, but it's because I see something in you.
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So it's not about a particular, you have to be this way or whatever, but, but thinking about the words that come out of your mouth, even,
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We go to things like how fast you answer a text.
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I mean, I think all of us, some of us are neurotic.
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And if I text somebody and I don't hear back from him for days, I'm wondering what they're thinking.
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That's my lead.
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That's my leader.
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I'm really thinking about it.
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Like, why hasn't she texted me back?
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So we point to some of those examples, but drivers in the top left tend to have like diminishing communication or just don't really tell you're doing a good job, but super high
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And they get results and they can actually use the example of Herb Brooks from the 1980 Olympic hockey team.
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And I do that on purpose to show this isn't, I'm not trying to say like this is bad or whatever.
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It's just a reflective tool.
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He had a mission.
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They had six months.
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He picked a group of hockey players that he knew he could drive.
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And he drove them.
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And he never told them they were doing a good job.
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You can watch the Netflix documentary and see that they never really heard.
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The guy, I mean, quote unquote, the guy was a total dick.
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I mean, absolutely.
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Right.
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I mean, he was just an ass.
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And the interesting thing about that documentary is that
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the players I don't think really got it until almost to the end.
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Right.
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What he was actually trying to do to then for them to all collectively, you know, win that award, which was the gold medal back in 1980.
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Absolutely.
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And it's funny because you can't say, you know, you can't question him.
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And I, I love that event.
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I use it on purpose because it was incredible, but could he have even been a little more effective?
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If he told him at the outset, like what he was doing or just occasionally thrown in like, Hey, I believe in you or whatever it might be.
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Um,
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but really reflective tool.
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You move down kind of kitty corner to cheerleader.
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And these are people who are constantly building your confidence, building a relationship, telling you can do it, but rarely pushing you to achieve more or sometimes like don't have the tough conversations because they don't wanna hurt your feelings or they don't, whatever it might be.
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And so,
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just putting those out there, those to aspire to builder, which is in the top right, where I do both.
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Like I push you, I'm constantly telling you that we expect excellence, we're gonna win, we're gonna climb mountains.
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And also, I believe in you.
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You did well yesterday.
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Hey, fix this.
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You're better than that.
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Like the ways that communicate that get us to show I believe in you at the same time, I'm going to be relentlessly positive.
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And then the bottom left is below.
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Hold on.
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Let me jump into that really quick.
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So as you brought his name up earlier, so I'll bring it up right now, Jim Moore.
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So Jim Moore, Jr.,
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head coach now at Colorado State, has been in the NFL as a head coach and UCLA and other places.
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But he's my best friend.
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And I'm actually heading out to his first game here in a couple of weeks.
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And we talked about this stuff all the time.
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Right.
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We love talking about this stuff.
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And I think there's a lot of super positive coaches that are out there, but don't survive it.
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The reason why Jim is the new head coach at Colorado State is because the guy before him, who is a great coach and a good dude and super positive,
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And I'm not saying I don't know anything about the program other than at the end of the day, you know, they lost over a series of years.
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And because it's so so based on wins and losses and revenue and everything else that you win, you stay and you lose and you get fired.
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And that's that's what happened.
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But what we talk about keeping this on the gym side is that one of the reasons why he's had insane success is because of what you were just talking about.
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You know, the builder and the driver and those things.
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also equate to standards, standards that you must have.
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So you can also be positive.
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But if you have to drive because somebody crossed that line or they're not living up to those standards, right, you're holding them then accountable to then succeed in a way that you can keep it positive, but you can chew their ass out, too, because they did not live up what you already articulated, what the standard is that they need to be if they want to be part of that program.
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Absolutely.
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00:24:14.977 --> 00:24:17.981
Yeah, it's kind of a couple of things you've said brings us together.
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This is I just saw the quote on LinkedIn and and I say that in the book because I don't remember it was just a friend or a friend of a friend.
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I didn't want to take credit for it, but I wanted to use it said that clarity of expectation is a much more important tool than clarity of correction.
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And it's kind of what you're saying, like, let's, let's make it clear.
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I found in my own life, often as a coach, sometimes when I was leading in the military, if I did make it clear, whether it was that core value we talked about earlier, or we're just being on time is non-negotiable this organization.
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Then when it happens, it's, it's not a, it doesn't, you don't have to get stressed out about correcting it.
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Like you don't have to build up that anxiety to go talk to somebody about the standard because we've made it super clear.
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And so, yeah, it's those type of things like that get you, I think, that get us all to build her.
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And it's a journey I'm still on.
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Uh, but it's such a, you can feel it when you're there, you can feel it by when you're led by somebody who does it this way, uh, that,
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It's just different.
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And we use a couple of examples in the book.
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There are a lot of sports examples in the book.
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The one we use, I'll leave the story for people to read if they want, but a young woman named Maggie Dixon who coached women's basketball at West Point that when you look back at what she did, it truly, Pat Summitt I think is another potential example.
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Love that.
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Okay.
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So build a driver.
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Let's move on to cheerleader.
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Yeah, and this is the one that I've had messages from a lot of friends who've been incredibly successful.
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I mean, I have a close friend, I actually use him a little bit in the book, that was the CEO of a company we've all heard of when he was 40 years old.
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And he's a Harvard Business School graduate, one of the best leaders you've been around.
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But we were even doing some, I'd call it executive coaching, but it was the two of us kind of just hanging out and talking for a number of months.
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And he looked at this concept and was like, boy, you know, I've got colleagues and
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What I admire about them is like if they hired a B player and that B player wasn't working out, they'd cut him loose.
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And like this, this guy has really good teams because he's not afraid to just cut people loose.
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And he had this tension because there was some downside in that, you know, the family's come into consideration.
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Did you give the person a chance?
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Did you believe in them?
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But he's like, I've got a couple of people and I just don't do that.
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Like I make excuses for him or I do their work for him.
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And this is an incredibly successful leader.
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This isn't some mediocre guy who's telling me this stuff.
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And he identified this cheerleader notion in himself.
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He's like, I've got to.
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And I actually said to him, well, have you talked to this person about it?
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Like, and he's like, no, I haven't.
391
00:26:39.867 --> 00:26:43.933
And he, he sat down and thought about what he needed to say and went and had the conversation.
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So.
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And I think it's just, it is resonating with colonels in the army that I've talked to, to everybody.
394
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And there's nothing grand or like incredible about this idea.
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It's just, I think there's something about asking this building or diminishing question and thinking about it from a driver cheerleader perspective that helps people like just reflect on who they are as a leader, wherever they are in their journey.
396
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Yeah.
397
00:27:05.476 --> 00:27:05.796
Okay.
398
00:27:05.856 --> 00:27:07.697
Let's go to the last one, which nobody wants to be.
399
00:27:07.737 --> 00:27:10.479
I mean, nobody wants to get chewed and you can't do it.
400
00:27:10.499 --> 00:27:11.240
You'll never make it.
401
00:27:11.280 --> 00:27:14.142
I mean, there's lots of examples in history of people being like that.
402
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And that typically to me, at least goes back to whatever trauma that person had growing up as a kid, they got their ass beat up or something.
403
00:27:21.787 --> 00:27:26.190
I don't know, but let's talk about that and what, you know, none of us obviously strive to be.
404
00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:27.251
Yeah.
405
00:27:27.271 --> 00:27:28.612
The belittler is an interesting one.
406
00:27:28.632 --> 00:27:29.072
Cause we all
407
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We do experience it.
408
00:27:30.908 --> 00:27:37.613
I mean, I think we've been there and I think this comes a lot of times like when I tried to really look at, hey, when was I've been a belittler?
409
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I think there were times when I was in the army where I got caught and I would say, I mean, it's kind of make an excuse, but we're we're impacted by the environment we're in.
410
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And so I was getting yelled at.
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I was getting chewed out.
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There was all kinds of pressure.
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I didn't handle it well.
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I wasn't reflecting on how I was leading.
415
00:27:53.024 --> 00:27:58.328
And so I ended up passing the, you know, passing it downhill, being demeaning to people,
416
00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:02.811
Basically, it's the leader who doesn't think much of people and tells them they suck.
417
00:28:02.911 --> 00:28:03.111
Right.
418
00:28:03.212 --> 00:28:09.694
And I did is I think it is you hit right on it's associated with people's own trauma with a lack of reflection.
419
00:28:10.414 --> 00:28:12.175
But it's toxic and it's damaging.
420
00:28:12.615 --> 00:28:15.296
It doesn't get results for an organization and it damages people.
421
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:21.221
Yeah, I think as leaders too, there's, you know, this kind of two personalities that we all float out there.
422
00:28:21.242 --> 00:28:24.422
There's this type A. I mean, certainly I've probably fallen in that category.
423
00:28:24.442 --> 00:28:25.143
And there's type B.
424
00:28:25.843 --> 00:28:30.364
And, you know, one is pushing and the other one's pulling.
425
00:28:30.864 --> 00:28:32.665
And so you have this push-pull effect, right?
426
00:28:32.845 --> 00:28:44.228
And so the real question is, like, how do you come together, especially when you're talking about, I'm not talking about necessarily a football team, although that could be or some kind of athletic team, but within an organization.
427
00:28:45.028 --> 00:28:58.636
And within the organization, you have to learn how to deal with all types of people and without like being accountable, setting the standards, but not chew people and cut them down just because they don't run at the same speed as you.
428
00:28:59.076 --> 00:28:59.296
Right.
429
00:28:59.356 --> 00:29:04.999
You just got to know what kind of again, just really understanding what kind of beast is in your is in your zoo.
430
00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:05.500
Right.
431
00:29:05.560 --> 00:29:11.543
To be able to lift people up and with the whole organization, the goal being to lift it to a whole different place.
432
00:29:12.063 --> 00:29:13.664
And that's the key for anything.
433
00:29:13.704 --> 00:29:20.787
But, you know, like you said, you'll never get the maximum results out of anybody if you just, you know, take them apart.
434
00:29:21.807 --> 00:29:22.728
Absolutely, Mark.
435
00:29:22.748 --> 00:29:36.634
And, you know, bringing it back to kind of where we started in a certain sense with thinking about the military academy and why I pointed that second experience teaching there is it does all like it really comes back to, hey, what did I do yesterday or what did I do last week?
436
00:29:36.874 --> 00:29:39.315
And how did I screw that up or what did I do well?
437
00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:42.111
And how do I make, how do I grow myself as a leader?
438
00:29:42.232 --> 00:29:55.200
And this, this, this willingness to do that, to just not have it be all about the numbers and the results, but realize that the impact that you're having on people as a leader matters and that the only person who can change that is you.
439
00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:58.081
So I got to reflect on the experiences I'm having to grow myself.
440
00:29:58.442 --> 00:29:58.782
Yeah.
441
00:29:58.962 --> 00:29:59.402
Love that.
442
00:29:59.502 --> 00:29:59.843
Love that.
443
00:30:00.023 --> 00:30:00.363
Okay.
444
00:30:01.298 --> 00:30:05.261
Are you out on the speaking circuit at all?
445
00:30:05.281 --> 00:30:07.103
Are you doing, you're getting out there?
446
00:30:07.163 --> 00:30:08.204
Is this book just launching?
447
00:30:08.504 --> 00:30:09.365
How's that all coming together?
448
00:30:09.385 --> 00:30:11.587
Yeah, Mark, we launched the book about a month ago.
449
00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:14.349
I do four or five keynotes a year.
450
00:30:14.369 --> 00:30:16.431
They're all kind of grassroots and organic.
451
00:30:16.751 --> 00:30:28.661
Being more intentional about this effort, honestly, all the money from this book in particular, and we did this intentionally at the reference group where I work, is going to a nonprofit called Tunnel to Towers.
452
00:30:29.105 --> 00:30:37.613
which pays off the mortgages for Gold Star families who have lost a spouse in combat or builds houses actually for first responders.
453
00:30:38.314 --> 00:30:41.137
And we did that because I believe in this concept enough.
454
00:30:41.177 --> 00:30:43.819
I mean, I've been doing leader development for 25 years.
455
00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:47.983
It's a simple concept, but I've watched it already change people.
456
00:30:48.003 --> 00:30:53.749
I've gotten, like I said, messages from people who said, hey, I just had this conversation with my adult daughter last week.
457
00:30:54.129 --> 00:30:55.350
And I was totally diminishing.
458
00:30:55.470 --> 00:31:00.052
And like, I need to go back to her and apologize and be the builder.
459
00:31:01.092 --> 00:31:04.894
And so I wanted to be free from self-interest in promoting this.
460
00:31:05.494 --> 00:31:09.176
And so we're given all the proceeds to tunnel the towers for the book.
461
00:31:09.396 --> 00:31:10.977
Absolutely trying to get out there and speak.
462
00:31:10.997 --> 00:31:15.079
The website is building or diminishing.com where people can go for that.
463
00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:23.403
But yeah, I've been doing this work for 25 years and I've always loved the relationship of it, loved helping people grow and really haven't tried to try to
464
00:31:23.810 --> 00:31:28.896
build a kind of a business out of it other than the what came, but in this case doing it a little differently.
465
00:31:28.936 --> 00:31:30.819
So absolutely ready to go do that.
466
00:31:31.239 --> 00:31:41.512
Well, it certainly sounds like you've taken it seriously and you're good at it and you had a great, you know, in, in going to West point certainly teed you up to be, you didn't understand what leadership means.
467
00:31:41.592 --> 00:31:41.692
And,
468
00:31:42.653 --> 00:31:52.196
And really trying to tap into the potential of everybody because everybody, you know, has the potential, I'll use that word again, to be the best version of themselves.
469
00:31:52.256 --> 00:31:56.577
And so many people aren't just because they don't know how to lead and set goals and be accountable and set standards.
470
00:31:57.478 --> 00:31:57.998
Absolutely.
471
00:31:59.163 --> 00:32:03.865
Yeah, I have a good friend from high school and we sent this book out to like our Christmas list, kind of just sent it out to people.
472
00:32:03.945 --> 00:32:06.906
And she's a she's a second grade teacher down in California.
473
00:32:06.926 --> 00:32:09.647
I wrote me back and said she bought a copy for everybody.
474
00:32:09.687 --> 00:32:12.488
She leads professional development at her elementary school.
475
00:32:12.568 --> 00:32:13.589
I wanted people to read it.
476
00:32:14.169 --> 00:32:14.929
There's an example.
477
00:32:15.770 --> 00:32:21.712
My wife was a kindergarten teacher and I use her as an example of a cheerleader and where that comes from for her in the book.
478
00:32:22.112 --> 00:32:25.715
So, you know, we teach our leadership development programs.
479
00:32:25.735 --> 00:32:26.095
We talk.
480
00:32:26.355 --> 00:32:27.436
We don't define leadership.
481
00:32:27.516 --> 00:32:29.838
We simply say you're a leader if people are following you.
482
00:32:30.318 --> 00:32:30.979
And we believe that.
483
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:35.162
It's in so many areas of life and truly feel like this is a concept for everybody.
484
00:32:36.005 --> 00:32:36.405
Love it.
485
00:32:36.485 --> 00:32:36.845
Love it.
486
00:32:36.965 --> 00:32:37.906
Okay.
487
00:32:38.026 --> 00:32:39.587
Where can people find you?
488
00:32:39.607 --> 00:32:40.907
You just mentioned this book.
489
00:32:41.748 --> 00:32:43.989
Is there any place online where somebody wants to reach out?
490
00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:44.569
Yeah.
491
00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:57.395
I mean, LinkedIn, I'll connect with whoever wants to reach out on LinkedIn and then building or diminishing.com is our website for this book, which also has a connection to the referent group, the boutique consulting firm or leadership development firm I work with.
492
00:32:57.795 --> 00:32:58.015
Yeah.
493
00:32:58.115 --> 00:33:00.676
And then you can buy this book where?
494
00:33:00.877 --> 00:33:01.977
At Amazon.
495
00:33:02.237 --> 00:33:03.538
Amazon primarily.
496
00:33:04.439 --> 00:33:09.332
And then we do sell, we will sell copies directly, 10 or more via the website.
497
00:33:09.633 --> 00:33:11.919
And then all the proceeds, 100% of them go to,
498
00:33:12.662 --> 00:33:13.803
uh, tunnel the towers.
499
00:33:13.823 --> 00:33:15.203
If we do that and stuff.
500
00:33:15.623 --> 00:33:15.843
Yeah.
501
00:33:16.144 --> 00:33:16.604
Love that.
502
00:33:16.684 --> 00:33:17.244
Good stuff.
503
00:33:17.284 --> 00:33:17.684
Good stuff.
504
00:33:17.704 --> 00:33:18.665
You lead by example.
505
00:33:18.685 --> 00:33:27.328
And that's so important, uh, today, um, for anybody else out there, make sure you subscribe to this channel, whatever you're listening to today.
506
00:33:27.348 --> 00:33:32.191
And, um, I just really appreciate you coming on and just killer conversation.
507
00:33:32.271 --> 00:33:34.832
I mean, there's more people I wish in the world that were like you.
508
00:33:35.732 --> 00:33:36.233
Thanks, Mark.
509
00:33:36.273 --> 00:33:36.974
I appreciate that.
510
00:33:37.034 --> 00:33:37.374
Yeah.
511
00:33:37.494 --> 00:33:38.716
Okay.
512
00:33:38.996 --> 00:33:39.256
Yep.
513
00:33:39.276 --> 00:33:39.496
Yep.
514
00:33:39.516 --> 00:33:39.917
Thank you.
515
00:33:39.997 --> 00:33:40.377
All right.
516
00:33:40.578 --> 00:33:44.682
There is the one, the only Doug Crandall.
517
00:33:44.702 --> 00:33:45.423
Thank you so much.
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Thank you.
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Hey everybody, it's Mark Patterson in the back again with another great episode of Finding Your Summit all about overcoming adversity and finding your way.
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Before we get into our great guest today, I want to once again remind everybody that I have come out with this book, also the same name of the podcast called Finding Your Summit, How to Build Resilience.
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and faith to rise above life's challenges.
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And we all have challenges and we all have to rise up.
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Otherwise you fall over.
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We're gonna get into that a little bit more today.
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Also, if you want me to come in and blow up your organization with a keynote speech, I do a lot of that.
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I've had a TEDx talk not too long ago and I've been over in Montenegro speaking.
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You can go to my website, www.markpattersonnfl.com and I've got all kinds of content
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located there.
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On that note, let's go to my great guest today, Doug Crandall.
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Doug, how you doing?
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Good, Mark.
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Thanks for having me on.
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I'm not sure if we're both from the home state, but you are residing not too far from where I actually grew up in Seattle, you're up in Bellevue, Washington, and hopefully it's a great day to be in the state of Washington.
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Absolutely, Mark.
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I am.
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I mean, you can barely see it here, but this is actually a picture of my oldest son.
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He was a Husky football manager.
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So I'm born and raised.
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about 20 minutes where you're from.
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Yeah, yeah.
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No, just nothing but wonderful memories.
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You know, actually, this is kind of a side thing, but it is and it isn't because it ties into this conversation.
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About a month and a half ago, I was asked to come up to the University of Washington and speak to the football team, which I did.
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And a lot of what I talked about was the pyramid of success and how I got there and what Coach James taught me.
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I just showed you this book that I'm reading, Thursday Speeches.
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I'll show to anybody who's watching this on Thursday.
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On YouTube, Don James, written by Peter Tormey, Lessons in Life, Leadership, and Football.
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We're going to talk about that here in a minute.
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But I think this is what so much of today's theme is all about, is the lack of leadership.
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And you have a new book that's out there I'm going to promote.
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building or diminishing.
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Yes, sir.
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And so it's such a fascinating topic.
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And there's a lot I want to get into this about this, because either you're moving forward or you're going back.
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It's just pretty simple to me.
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And when you're stuck in the middle, you know, there's nothing worse because you're not doing either.
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And...
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And today, as we talked about before we went live, is so much has to do with the leadership and the lack of and people that really have in the road trip because they don't have been taught because that's not what they did do in school.
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You go through, you graduate, you move on to a role.
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You've been taught how to do that role, which is marketing or creative or marketing.
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or accounting or something, but you've never been taught how to lead not only yourself, but others.
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Right?
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So, I want to talk about that.
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Let's go back and like set this up a little bit and then I'm going to shut up, which is you went to West Pint and I can only imagine what that was like.
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I had an opportunity to go to the Air Force Academy out of high school.
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I wasn't mature enough.
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I was mature enough to understand I wasn't mature enough to actually go do that.
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But you certainly seem to be much more mature than me.
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let's go back to West Point and what kind of effect that had on you in terms of, we'll lead up to this book that you wrote.
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Yeah, Mark, I mean, really two stops at West Point.
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I mentioned that because the second one probably even had a deeper effect, but I went there out of high school.
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I think my dad had gone there, and I think the interesting thing about it is my dad grew up during the Depression.
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I mean, he was seven, eight years old in 1938, 39.
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He grew up in Missouri with a single mom, and so I had heard stories about
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him getting one pair of shoes a year.
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He enlisted as a Marine, went to West Point.
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And the reason I bring all that up is he had almost a romantic notion of West Point because it changed his life and skipped over some of just the things that were really hard.
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It's changed a bit since, since certainly since my dad went there, even since when I went there to focus a little bit away from hazing and more on leader development.
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But it was really hard.
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I was lonely.
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I was across the country.
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And you just, you get put through the grind.
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You're getting yelled a lot that first year.
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So a lot of those things were super hard.
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I mentioned the second part, cause I got a chance to go back there and teach and see it from a different perspective.
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And when I was there teaching in the early two thousands, got to see how, what a huge part reflection is in leader development.
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And I bring that up because you're talking about kind of people just, you know, they do great at their jobs.
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We see a lot of that in the health care industry where a great doctor becomes the chief of a clinic or a chief resident, and they've never been taught to lead.
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And so it's sort of unintentional.
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They're just going through the motions or not really thinking about how they're impacting other people.
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And that second chance to teach at West Point, really the whole place is this laboratory.
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through sports, through summer leadership opportunities, even during the academic year, you're given leadership positions at West Point.
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And really the goal is for you to make mistakes, be thrown in situations that aren't life or death, and then to process what you're learning from those situations.
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And we have essays to that effect in our core leadership class, where you think about what happened this summer, what did I learn from that as a lead?
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Peter.
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Yeah.
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Are you still with me?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, you froze for just half a second.
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Yeah, no, no, I get everything you're trying to say.
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And, you know, I assume, I'm just having a comment on this, even though I'm assuming that you know this and this is kind of what you just said, that you can't effectively lead unless you lead yourself first.
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Yeah.
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And that comes with a whole set of core values in your North store and things like that.
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So comment on that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, in all of these programs we've been doing for a couple of decades now, we start almost everywhere we go.
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It's an immutable part of what we do.
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And we do half-day stuff to six-month stuff.
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But even when we're doing half-day stuff, at least a little bit on what do I believe and why do I believe it?
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What are the four or five things that no matter what, I'm not going to compromise on?
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They're going to be part of who I am.
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A certain way that we treat people or integrity, whatever it might be.
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And we focus on that so much because then the rest of leadership is about the people you're leading.
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You know, does this person, I mean, does this person actually like to be pushed really hard or does this person need to be handled a little bit differently?
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People I think bring so much and think, how am I going to lead without thinking about the people they're actually leading and how they need to adapt each person to adapt to a group or adapt to the situation, what the mission is at hand.
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And so, yeah, that, that first part though, is before you do any of that, locking in, like, what do I believe?
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Why do I believe it?
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How did you get that gig?
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You know, you talked about that second placement in your life.
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First, it was a student and then now as a teacher.
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How did you get that gig?
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Yeah, it's a cool model at the academy.
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About two-thirds of the faculty were,
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are active duty young, you know, 31, 32 year old army officers who've been sent to get master's degrees and come back to teach, come back to teach calculus, come back to teach history.
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I had the great opportunity to come back and teach the core leadership class.
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You apply, it's pretty competitive process for active duty army officers.
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But I was really put onto it, as I mentioned, by my dad, he had gotten out of the army after his initial service commitment in the late 50s.
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But I'd said one thing he wished he'd always done was
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gone back to West Point and taught.
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Um, and it really, for me, was a choice between kind of the same thing, getting out of the army in the late nineties, uh, or applying to teach at West Point.
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So I was given that chance.
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I actually got an incredible chance just two years ago to go back as a civilian, which is not, not as common and not a systemic process.
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I just saw on a buddy's LinkedIn post that they were looking for somebody, uh, literally just for 10 months to come, uh, no moving expenses, just come teach this leadership class for 10 months.
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Cause they had a hole to fill.
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So.
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have had a few great opportunities to go back there and be immersed in the leader development process there.
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And what do you find about today's student compared to way back when we were going?
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Has that changed as the personalities and different kid that's growing up?
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There's so much more, you know, we grew up in an era where there was no cell phones, right?
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There's no notifications, there's no internet, there's, you know, it was all dial up.
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And I mean, the world is just
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you know, even the way we fight war, right?
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With drones.
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I mean, flying these things that look like 747s and they're carrying bombs and there's no pilot on board.
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I mean, it's insane.
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So like, what is that type of kid today that maybe it's the same kid?
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Yeah, Mark, essentially, I think there's probably people who would disagree with me, but I, at least in West Point Service Academy and probably some other places where you got to do, you got to really do really hard stuff.
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I mean, you're, you are getting up at,
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545 every day, pretty much for the entire four years.
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You might be able to push that till 605.
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You're like, but you're getting up, you're going to bed pretty much at midnight.
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You're taking 20 credits a semester.
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I found that they really hadn't changed in my opinion.
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Maybe it's the way I was looking upon them, but I'll take for example,
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United States Army's Ranger School, which I will say immediately I am not a graduate of.
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I did not go through it.
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It's primarily an infantry school, but a lot of non-infantry soldiers go through it.
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But it's 60 days at a minimum out in the woods, in Georgia, in Florida.
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almost no sleep, almost no food, and you get pushed to the brink to get through this army ranger infantry school.
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That hasn't changed.
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I mean, it might have changed a little bit.
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Some people would argue with that, but it really, the structure of that, no food, no sleep, that hasn't changed in decades.
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And so the kids that went through it in the 90s, the kids that went through in the 70s have to be pretty much the same makeup as some of the kids that I taught.
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I just went to a graduation for that school in the spring.
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They went through it this time.
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I mean, I think kids that are signed up to serve the country and do hard stuff like that haven't changed a ton.
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One thing that I did see, I almost point to the culture of the academy rather than the leaders, the young leaders that are there, is the willingness to correct somebody else is probably less than it used to be.
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The school used to be built around crushing plebs with discipline.
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Plebs are freshmen.
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Crushing those freshmen with discipline.
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And there wasn't really a problem of people telling somebody else what to do.
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Kids are a little friendlier now is the way I would put it, maybe a little more social because of their phones, but they were just more hesitant to hold others accountable from what I saw.
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That concerned me a little bit because part of your job when you're a 23-year-old lieutenant is to, if you have to, hold a more experienced, non-commissioned officer accountable.
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But overall, I saw a great group of young men and women that didn't really seem much different to me.
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Yeah, I mean, to me, that kind of, when you talk about that, I go back a little bit to this environment where everybody gets a trophy, everybody gets a ribbon, right?
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So there's either, you know, when you and I were growing up, there's either a winner or a loser.
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And so you either won the championship and this is like little league or you didn't.
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And you didn't, even if you took fifth place, you still didn't get a trophy and a ribbon for participation, right?
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It's just all part of the thing of goal setting and going forward.
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And I noticed a little bit of the same thing at the UW.
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You know, at the end of the day, it gets down to the fundamentals.
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And I'm talking about the football team now.
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And so you still got to work.
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You still got to grind.
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Now they're doing it earlier.
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And maybe it's changed a little bit in terms of all the the the the the access that they have to gyms and coaches and select football and those types of things.
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But I can identify with what you said.
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It takes a certain kind of kid to get into those military.
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You have to have the senators typically write a letter of recommendation and things like this.
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And so whether it's the Air Force or it's going to West Point or something like that, I mean, it's just it does take a special kind of breed of kid of maturity to, I think, for that age 17 to go, you know what?
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I can't wait to go sign up for this thing and get my ass chewed.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Right.
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For sure.
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And then he's throwing like, I think about a couple of the athletes I taught and I got real close to a basketball player who was still going through the same stuff of not getting the playing time he wanted.
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In the meantime, he's trying to get his homework done for, you know, the paper he had to write for my class and just this kid's tough as nails.
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I mean, it gave me hope, honestly, that our future's in good hands, like truly.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So let's go back to the book, Building or Diminishing.
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Why did you write this book?
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Yeah, it's Mark's interesting.
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I think we have four kids.
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We're empty nesters now for the last three years of our youngest son's kind of high school experience.
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He lived with just his mom and I, you know, he's the last one.
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So we got to spend a lot of up close time with him.
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And I just started thinking to myself as I was leading him because parenting is absolutely a leadership endeavor.
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I started thinking as should I say this to him or not?
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Like, does it do him any good for me to say this?
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And it's really kind of
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Unfortunately, maybe for the first, our oldest son.
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And then as you go along, you just learn stuff through experience and reflection.
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But, uh, so I started saying to myself, am I building or diminishing him with, with what I'm saying?
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And if I'm not building him and building, as we get into in the book can mean I'm pushing you because I think you can do better.
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Like I expect more of you.
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It's not, it's not a soft concept, but is there a purpose in what I'm saying?
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And I threw that on a slide one day when we were teaching, really teaching, talking about leading others and meeting people where they're at.
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And it really resonated with the group.
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Um, I laid this in with a, a quote actually from a mentor of mine, a guy named Bruce Brown, um, actually, uh, Jim Mora would know Bruce Brown.
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I think he probably taught Jim when Jim was in junior high and Bruce, uh, a quote I saw he posted on LinkedIn said the most effective leaders
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are unapologetically demanding and relentlessly positive.
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And so I was like, shoot, well, then everything that you're saying should be kind of a combination of those things as a leader.
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And we started to build a keynote out of it.
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And in a six months program that we were teaching in North Carolina a couple of years ago,
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There was a person who came up at the end of the program and said that that question, like think to yourself, am I building or diminishing?
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Ask yourself that when you're leading other people was the most impactful part of our program.
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And we really leave it up to people after six months together to reflect and take their own lessons away.
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What was the most important part of this?
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So.
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I just it just started to stick.
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I saw it sticking with people and decided to build it into a book.
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And it's really a book about my own journey to to aspire to be a builder, to to build this question into my habit of leadership.
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One of the things that
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that I saw and I experienced a lot and I was very blessed and fortunate.
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Through a lot of hard work, but to make it all the way to the top of the rung to be in the NFL.
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And so I got to experience a lot of coaches and it was interesting because going back to what you were saying about your building or diminishing
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there was either positive coaching or negative coaching.
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And like I could have done, I could have had the most insane catch on the field in the last moments under extreme pressure, fans going cuckoo,
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And he'd find the one thing that I did wrong versus just, you know, like build on what we did.
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And by the way, we can also work on this part a little bit and just constantly focus on that.
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And I think what you said is that, and for anybody that's listening to this, and I'm saying this now after running a big part of Sports Illustrated for the last 10 years and over 300 different people within that organization on the team network, is that each and every single person,
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is driven differently.
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And you got to really understand, you know, personalities and what, what are you going to be able to get the most amount of juice over?
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Cause not all personalities like can hear you or respond to you the same way that you want that kind of result on the other side of it.
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A hundred percent Mark.
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And that is it.
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And that's a challenge of the leader either way.
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Right.
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I mean, if, uh, if you're used to being super positive and I thought about this, I coached high school basketball for a number of years, coached my kids, about 20 years of coaching under my belt.
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Um,
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which was another journey of just trying to get better all the time.
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But even in writing this book, I looked back and thought about a couple of players who I was really relationship focused.
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And I was good at building their confidence, but I watched them go into like D1, one of them going to become a D1 college basketball player who became first team all conference in like a mid-major.
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And I saw her coach really push her in a way I think I didn't and realized, huh, like I was being who I thought, like, you know, who I wanted to be.
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I wanted to be building her up in practice.
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But I think she really, in certain ways, that was helpful to her, but she wanted to be pushed as well.
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So it's both ways.
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I mean, it's.
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It's really an important part of leading, like really stepping back and not being about you, but it being about what the people you lead need.
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Well, I think sometimes too, expectations and transparency are key in everything that we're talking about here, right?
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So going up to that player, that example that you just talked about and go, look, I'm going to push your ass like you've never been pushing.
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It's going to come across as like mean and heartfelt, but I'm trying to get you because I think you have that potential to go to X spot, you know, the WNBA or, you know,
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college or whatever that you're talking about.
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And in order to do that, I need to push these certain buttons.
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And so I just wanted to set that expectation up front.
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Are we good?
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Yeah, we're good.
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Great.
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I love that.
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Yeah, I love that.
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It's a wonderful point for sure.
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Just that little thing is a huge difference.
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So kind of let's jump back into to what what, you know, how does our communication land and what to expect?
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Right.
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And you in this book point out that there's some like four, essentially for these four different levels.
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I'll call them and you can you can redefine these here in a second.
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A builder, a driver, a cheerleader or a belittler.
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So that's kind of what we just talked about, right?
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If you're not leading in the right way and it's not positive, then it's negative.
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So it's the opposite of that.
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So builder, driver, cheerleader, and then you knock people down.
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So just walk me through that in terms of how we all kind of communicate, you know, because people that listen to this podcast, and there's quite a few that do.
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I think they, I think just we always pull things out and like you're, you're, you're
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You're asking yourself, say, if you're going in enough effort to go listen to somebody's podcast, and I've been doing this now, you'll be like 310.
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So that's a lot of episodes, right?
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And it's like, what kind of nugget can I extract that's going to make me a better person and a better leader?
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So let's talk about those.
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Builder, driver, cheerleader.
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Be leader.
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Yeah, you bet, Mark.
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And I do this all the time.
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I might overqualify it, but I'm not huge on labeling people.
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I actually say that in the book.
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At the same time.
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this construct like this is how a lot of people think.
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So it's done to be helpful and as a reflective tool and literally say in the book, not to put anybody in a box.
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But I have seen it with some really high level people, some friends who've just sent me text messages after reading the book.
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help people think about where they're at.
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And the two most important quadrants in that grid, I think are the cheerleader and the driver.
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And so it just has two axes.
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And one of them is how we communicate.
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Do we tend to be more building in our communication or diminishing, or are we always telling people that they need to get better, you know, that they're not doing good enough?
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Or are we finding what people are doing right, giving them the confidence and they can get stuff done?
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I would say even to what you just said earlier about that expectation,
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is building type communication.
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I'm going to come up to you and say, Hey, I'm going to be pushing you, but it's, but it's because I see something in you.
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So it's not about a particular, you have to be this way or whatever, but, but thinking about the words that come out of your mouth, even,
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We go to things like how fast you answer a text.
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I mean, I think all of us, some of us are neurotic.
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And if I text somebody and I don't hear back from him for days, I'm wondering what they're thinking.
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That's my lead.
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That's my leader.
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I'm really thinking about it.
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Like, why hasn't she texted me back?
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So we point to some of those examples, but drivers in the top left tend to have like diminishing communication or just don't really tell you're doing a good job, but super high
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And they get results and they can actually use the example of Herb Brooks from the 1980 Olympic hockey team.
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And I do that on purpose to show this isn't, I'm not trying to say like this is bad or whatever.
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It's just a reflective tool.
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He had a mission.
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They had six months.
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He picked a group of hockey players that he knew he could drive.
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And he drove them.
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And he never told them they were doing a good job.
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You can watch the Netflix documentary and see that they never really heard.
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The guy, I mean, quote unquote, the guy was a total dick.
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I mean, absolutely.
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Right.
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I mean, he was just an ass.
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And the interesting thing about that documentary is that
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the players I don't think really got it until almost to the end.
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Right.
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What he was actually trying to do to then for them to all collectively, you know, win that award, which was the gold medal back in 1980.
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Absolutely.
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And it's funny because you can't say, you know, you can't question him.
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And I, I love that event.
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I use it on purpose because it was incredible, but could he have even been a little more effective?
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If he told him at the outset, like what he was doing or just occasionally thrown in like, Hey, I believe in you or whatever it might be.
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Um,
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but really reflective tool.
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00:21:57.347 --> 00:21:59.928
You move down kind of kitty corner to cheerleader.
324
00:21:59.968 --> 00:22:15.472
And these are people who are constantly building your confidence, building a relationship, telling you can do it, but rarely pushing you to achieve more or sometimes like don't have the tough conversations because they don't wanna hurt your feelings or they don't, whatever it might be.
325
00:22:15.492 --> 00:22:16.372
And so,
326
00:22:17.293 --> 00:22:21.858
just putting those out there, those to aspire to builder, which is in the top right, where I do both.
327
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:28.626
Like I push you, I'm constantly telling you that we expect excellence, we're gonna win, we're gonna climb mountains.
328
00:22:29.433 --> 00:22:30.594
And also, I believe in you.
329
00:22:31.315 --> 00:22:32.576
You did well yesterday.
330
00:22:32.596 --> 00:22:33.476
Hey, fix this.
331
00:22:34.117 --> 00:22:35.098
You're better than that.
332
00:22:35.498 --> 00:22:41.983
Like the ways that communicate that get us to show I believe in you at the same time, I'm going to be relentlessly positive.
333
00:22:42.644 --> 00:22:44.606
And then the bottom left is below.
334
00:22:44.906 --> 00:22:45.707
Hold on.
335
00:22:45.847 --> 00:22:47.808
Let me jump into that really quick.
336
00:22:48.109 --> 00:22:52.272
So as you brought his name up earlier, so I'll bring it up right now, Jim Moore.
337
00:22:52.292 --> 00:22:53.013
So Jim Moore, Jr.,
338
00:22:53.593 --> 00:22:58.975
head coach now at Colorado State, has been in the NFL as a head coach and UCLA and other places.
339
00:22:59.035 --> 00:23:00.995
But he's my best friend.
340
00:23:01.015 --> 00:23:04.236
And I'm actually heading out to his first game here in a couple of weeks.
341
00:23:05.117 --> 00:23:06.517
And we talked about this stuff all the time.
342
00:23:06.577 --> 00:23:06.777
Right.
343
00:23:06.797 --> 00:23:07.757
We love talking about this stuff.
344
00:23:07.877 --> 00:23:12.059
And I think there's a lot of super positive coaches that are out there, but don't survive it.
345
00:23:12.159 --> 00:23:19.421
The reason why Jim is the new head coach at Colorado State is because the guy before him, who is a great coach and a good dude and super positive,
346
00:23:20.201 --> 00:23:25.664
And I'm not saying I don't know anything about the program other than at the end of the day, you know, they lost over a series of years.
347
00:23:25.684 --> 00:23:33.748
And because it's so so based on wins and losses and revenue and everything else that you win, you stay and you lose and you get fired.
348
00:23:33.808 --> 00:23:35.249
And that's that's what happened.
349
00:23:35.669 --> 00:23:43.673
But what we talk about keeping this on the gym side is that one of the reasons why he's had insane success is because of what you were just talking about.
350
00:23:43.693 --> 00:23:47.175
You know, the builder and the driver and those things.
351
00:23:47.815 --> 00:23:51.638
also equate to standards, standards that you must have.
352
00:23:52.439 --> 00:23:53.960
So you can also be positive.
353
00:23:54.340 --> 00:24:13.576
But if you have to drive because somebody crossed that line or they're not living up to those standards, right, you're holding them then accountable to then succeed in a way that you can keep it positive, but you can chew their ass out, too, because they did not live up what you already articulated, what the standard is that they need to be if they want to be part of that program.
354
00:24:14.336 --> 00:24:14.897
Absolutely.
355
00:24:14.977 --> 00:24:17.981
Yeah, it's kind of a couple of things you've said brings us together.
356
00:24:18.001 --> 00:24:24.769
This is I just saw the quote on LinkedIn and and I say that in the book because I don't remember it was just a friend or a friend of a friend.
357
00:24:25.290 --> 00:24:33.280
I didn't want to take credit for it, but I wanted to use it said that clarity of expectation is a much more important tool than clarity of correction.
358
00:24:33.837 --> 00:24:36.500
And it's kind of what you're saying, like, let's, let's make it clear.
359
00:24:36.860 --> 00:24:47.350
I found in my own life, often as a coach, sometimes when I was leading in the military, if I did make it clear, whether it was that core value we talked about earlier, or we're just being on time is non-negotiable this organization.
360
00:24:48.010 --> 00:24:53.155
Then when it happens, it's, it's not a, it doesn't, you don't have to get stressed out about correcting it.
361
00:24:53.195 --> 00:24:58.780
Like you don't have to build up that anxiety to go talk to somebody about the standard because we've made it super clear.
362
00:24:59.840 --> 00:25:04.424
And so, yeah, it's those type of things like that get you, I think, that get us all to build her.
363
00:25:04.444 --> 00:25:05.725
And it's a journey I'm still on.
364
00:25:05.745 --> 00:25:12.690
Uh, but it's such a, you can feel it when you're there, you can feel it by when you're led by somebody who does it this way, uh, that,
365
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:13.640
It's just different.
366
00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:15.321
And we use a couple of examples in the book.
367
00:25:15.601 --> 00:25:17.382
There are a lot of sports examples in the book.
368
00:25:17.703 --> 00:25:30.893
The one we use, I'll leave the story for people to read if they want, but a young woman named Maggie Dixon who coached women's basketball at West Point that when you look back at what she did, it truly, Pat Summitt I think is another potential example.
369
00:25:31.714 --> 00:25:32.094
Love that.
370
00:25:32.214 --> 00:25:32.514
Okay.
371
00:25:32.554 --> 00:25:33.635
So build a driver.
372
00:25:33.775 --> 00:25:35.357
Let's move on to cheerleader.
373
00:25:36.408 --> 00:25:41.431
Yeah, and this is the one that I've had messages from a lot of friends who've been incredibly successful.
374
00:25:41.451 --> 00:25:48.375
I mean, I have a close friend, I actually use him a little bit in the book, that was the CEO of a company we've all heard of when he was 40 years old.
375
00:25:48.395 --> 00:25:52.098
And he's a Harvard Business School graduate, one of the best leaders you've been around.
376
00:25:52.138 --> 00:25:58.922
But we were even doing some, I'd call it executive coaching, but it was the two of us kind of just hanging out and talking for a number of months.
377
00:25:58.962 --> 00:26:03.605
And he looked at this concept and was like, boy, you know, I've got colleagues and
378
00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:09.473
What I admire about them is like if they hired a B player and that B player wasn't working out, they'd cut him loose.
379
00:26:09.633 --> 00:26:13.836
And like this, this guy has really good teams because he's not afraid to just cut people loose.
380
00:26:14.256 --> 00:26:19.459
And he had this tension because there was some downside in that, you know, the family's come into consideration.
381
00:26:19.479 --> 00:26:20.780
Did you give the person a chance?
382
00:26:20.820 --> 00:26:21.660
Did you believe in them?
383
00:26:22.121 --> 00:26:24.542
But he's like, I've got a couple of people and I just don't do that.
384
00:26:24.582 --> 00:26:26.963
Like I make excuses for him or I do their work for him.
385
00:26:27.384 --> 00:26:29.225
And this is an incredibly successful leader.
386
00:26:29.245 --> 00:26:31.486
This isn't some mediocre guy who's telling me this stuff.
387
00:26:31.856 --> 00:26:34.239
And he identified this cheerleader notion in himself.
388
00:26:34.299 --> 00:26:35.080
He's like, I've got to.
389
00:26:35.361 --> 00:26:38.205
And I actually said to him, well, have you talked to this person about it?
390
00:26:38.225 --> 00:26:39.827
Like, and he's like, no, I haven't.
391
00:26:39.867 --> 00:26:43.933
And he, he sat down and thought about what he needed to say and went and had the conversation.
392
00:26:43.993 --> 00:26:44.193
So.
393
00:26:44.573 --> 00:26:49.376
And I think it's just, it is resonating with colonels in the army that I've talked to, to everybody.
394
00:26:49.396 --> 00:26:52.398
And there's nothing grand or like incredible about this idea.
395
00:26:52.458 --> 00:27:04.126
It's just, I think there's something about asking this building or diminishing question and thinking about it from a driver cheerleader perspective that helps people like just reflect on who they are as a leader, wherever they are in their journey.
396
00:27:04.735 --> 00:27:04.975
Yeah.
397
00:27:05.476 --> 00:27:05.796
Okay.
398
00:27:05.856 --> 00:27:07.697
Let's go to the last one, which nobody wants to be.
399
00:27:07.737 --> 00:27:10.479
I mean, nobody wants to get chewed and you can't do it.
400
00:27:10.499 --> 00:27:11.240
You'll never make it.
401
00:27:11.280 --> 00:27:14.142
I mean, there's lots of examples in history of people being like that.
402
00:27:14.662 --> 00:27:21.707
And that typically to me, at least goes back to whatever trauma that person had growing up as a kid, they got their ass beat up or something.
403
00:27:21.787 --> 00:27:26.190
I don't know, but let's talk about that and what, you know, none of us obviously strive to be.
404
00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:27.251
Yeah.
405
00:27:27.271 --> 00:27:28.612
The belittler is an interesting one.
406
00:27:28.632 --> 00:27:29.072
Cause we all
407
00:27:29.707 --> 00:27:30.808
We do experience it.
408
00:27:30.908 --> 00:27:37.613
I mean, I think we've been there and I think this comes a lot of times like when I tried to really look at, hey, when was I've been a belittler?
409
00:27:37.633 --> 00:27:45.939
I think there were times when I was in the army where I got caught and I would say, I mean, it's kind of make an excuse, but we're we're impacted by the environment we're in.
410
00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:47.100
And so I was getting yelled at.
411
00:27:47.360 --> 00:27:48.200
I was getting chewed out.
412
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.301
There was all kinds of pressure.
413
00:27:49.321 --> 00:27:50.782
I didn't handle it well.
414
00:27:50.822 --> 00:27:52.704
I wasn't reflecting on how I was leading.
415
00:27:53.024 --> 00:27:58.328
And so I ended up passing the, you know, passing it downhill, being demeaning to people,
416
00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:02.811
Basically, it's the leader who doesn't think much of people and tells them they suck.
417
00:28:02.911 --> 00:28:03.111
Right.
418
00:28:03.212 --> 00:28:09.694
And I did is I think it is you hit right on it's associated with people's own trauma with a lack of reflection.
419
00:28:10.414 --> 00:28:12.175
But it's toxic and it's damaging.
420
00:28:12.615 --> 00:28:15.296
It doesn't get results for an organization and it damages people.
421
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:21.221
Yeah, I think as leaders too, there's, you know, this kind of two personalities that we all float out there.
422
00:28:21.242 --> 00:28:24.422
There's this type A. I mean, certainly I've probably fallen in that category.
423
00:28:24.442 --> 00:28:25.143
And there's type B.
424
00:28:25.843 --> 00:28:30.364
And, you know, one is pushing and the other one's pulling.
425
00:28:30.864 --> 00:28:32.665
And so you have this push-pull effect, right?
426
00:28:32.845 --> 00:28:44.228
And so the real question is, like, how do you come together, especially when you're talking about, I'm not talking about necessarily a football team, although that could be or some kind of athletic team, but within an organization.
427
00:28:45.028 --> 00:28:58.636
And within the organization, you have to learn how to deal with all types of people and without like being accountable, setting the standards, but not chew people and cut them down just because they don't run at the same speed as you.
428
00:28:59.076 --> 00:28:59.296
Right.
429
00:28:59.356 --> 00:29:04.999
You just got to know what kind of again, just really understanding what kind of beast is in your is in your zoo.
430
00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:05.500
Right.
431
00:29:05.560 --> 00:29:11.543
To be able to lift people up and with the whole organization, the goal being to lift it to a whole different place.
432
00:29:12.063 --> 00:29:13.664
And that's the key for anything.
433
00:29:13.704 --> 00:29:20.787
But, you know, like you said, you'll never get the maximum results out of anybody if you just, you know, take them apart.
434
00:29:21.807 --> 00:29:22.728
Absolutely, Mark.
435
00:29:22.748 --> 00:29:36.634
And, you know, bringing it back to kind of where we started in a certain sense with thinking about the military academy and why I pointed that second experience teaching there is it does all like it really comes back to, hey, what did I do yesterday or what did I do last week?
436
00:29:36.874 --> 00:29:39.315
And how did I screw that up or what did I do well?
437
00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:42.111
And how do I make, how do I grow myself as a leader?
438
00:29:42.232 --> 00:29:55.200
And this, this, this willingness to do that, to just not have it be all about the numbers and the results, but realize that the impact that you're having on people as a leader matters and that the only person who can change that is you.
439
00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:58.081
So I got to reflect on the experiences I'm having to grow myself.
440
00:29:58.442 --> 00:29:58.782
Yeah.
441
00:29:58.962 --> 00:29:59.402
Love that.
442
00:29:59.502 --> 00:29:59.843
Love that.
443
00:30:00.023 --> 00:30:00.363
Okay.
444
00:30:01.298 --> 00:30:05.261
Are you out on the speaking circuit at all?
445
00:30:05.281 --> 00:30:07.103
Are you doing, you're getting out there?
446
00:30:07.163 --> 00:30:08.204
Is this book just launching?
447
00:30:08.504 --> 00:30:09.365
How's that all coming together?
448
00:30:09.385 --> 00:30:11.587
Yeah, Mark, we launched the book about a month ago.
449
00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:14.349
I do four or five keynotes a year.
450
00:30:14.369 --> 00:30:16.431
They're all kind of grassroots and organic.
451
00:30:16.751 --> 00:30:28.661
Being more intentional about this effort, honestly, all the money from this book in particular, and we did this intentionally at the reference group where I work, is going to a nonprofit called Tunnel to Towers.
452
00:30:29.105 --> 00:30:37.613
which pays off the mortgages for Gold Star families who have lost a spouse in combat or builds houses actually for first responders.
453
00:30:38.314 --> 00:30:41.137
And we did that because I believe in this concept enough.
454
00:30:41.177 --> 00:30:43.819
I mean, I've been doing leader development for 25 years.
455
00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:47.983
It's a simple concept, but I've watched it already change people.
456
00:30:48.003 --> 00:30:53.749
I've gotten, like I said, messages from people who said, hey, I just had this conversation with my adult daughter last week.
457
00:30:54.129 --> 00:30:55.350
And I was totally diminishing.
458
00:30:55.470 --> 00:31:00.052
And like, I need to go back to her and apologize and be the builder.
459
00:31:01.092 --> 00:31:04.894
And so I wanted to be free from self-interest in promoting this.
460
00:31:05.494 --> 00:31:09.176
And so we're given all the proceeds to tunnel the towers for the book.
461
00:31:09.396 --> 00:31:10.977
Absolutely trying to get out there and speak.
462
00:31:10.997 --> 00:31:15.079
The website is building or diminishing.com where people can go for that.
463
00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:23.403
But yeah, I've been doing this work for 25 years and I've always loved the relationship of it, loved helping people grow and really haven't tried to try to
464
00:31:23.810 --> 00:31:28.896
build a kind of a business out of it other than the what came, but in this case doing it a little differently.
465
00:31:28.936 --> 00:31:30.819
So absolutely ready to go do that.
466
00:31:31.239 --> 00:31:41.512
Well, it certainly sounds like you've taken it seriously and you're good at it and you had a great, you know, in, in going to West point certainly teed you up to be, you didn't understand what leadership means.
467
00:31:41.592 --> 00:31:41.692
And,
468
00:31:42.653 --> 00:31:52.196
And really trying to tap into the potential of everybody because everybody, you know, has the potential, I'll use that word again, to be the best version of themselves.
469
00:31:52.256 --> 00:31:56.577
And so many people aren't just because they don't know how to lead and set goals and be accountable and set standards.
470
00:31:57.478 --> 00:31:57.998
Absolutely.
471
00:31:59.163 --> 00:32:03.865
Yeah, I have a good friend from high school and we sent this book out to like our Christmas list, kind of just sent it out to people.
472
00:32:03.945 --> 00:32:06.906
And she's a she's a second grade teacher down in California.
473
00:32:06.926 --> 00:32:09.647
I wrote me back and said she bought a copy for everybody.
474
00:32:09.687 --> 00:32:12.488
She leads professional development at her elementary school.
475
00:32:12.568 --> 00:32:13.589
I wanted people to read it.
476
00:32:14.169 --> 00:32:14.929
There's an example.
477
00:32:15.770 --> 00:32:21.712
My wife was a kindergarten teacher and I use her as an example of a cheerleader and where that comes from for her in the book.
478
00:32:22.112 --> 00:32:25.715
So, you know, we teach our leadership development programs.
479
00:32:25.735 --> 00:32:26.095
We talk.
480
00:32:26.355 --> 00:32:27.436
We don't define leadership.
481
00:32:27.516 --> 00:32:29.838
We simply say you're a leader if people are following you.
482
00:32:30.318 --> 00:32:30.979
And we believe that.
483
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:35.162
It's in so many areas of life and truly feel like this is a concept for everybody.
484
00:32:36.005 --> 00:32:36.405
Love it.
485
00:32:36.485 --> 00:32:36.845
Love it.
486
00:32:36.965 --> 00:32:37.906
Okay.
487
00:32:38.026 --> 00:32:39.587
Where can people find you?
488
00:32:39.607 --> 00:32:40.907
You just mentioned this book.
489
00:32:41.748 --> 00:32:43.989
Is there any place online where somebody wants to reach out?
490
00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:44.569
Yeah.
491
00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:57.395
I mean, LinkedIn, I'll connect with whoever wants to reach out on LinkedIn and then building or diminishing.com is our website for this book, which also has a connection to the referent group, the boutique consulting firm or leadership development firm I work with.
492
00:32:57.795 --> 00:32:58.015
Yeah.
493
00:32:58.115 --> 00:33:00.676
And then you can buy this book where?
494
00:33:00.877 --> 00:33:01.977
At Amazon.
495
00:33:02.237 --> 00:33:03.538
Amazon primarily.
496
00:33:04.439 --> 00:33:09.332
And then we do sell, we will sell copies directly, 10 or more via the website.
497
00:33:09.633 --> 00:33:11.919
And then all the proceeds, 100% of them go to,
498
00:33:12.662 --> 00:33:13.803
uh, tunnel the towers.
499
00:33:13.823 --> 00:33:15.203
If we do that and stuff.
500
00:33:15.623 --> 00:33:15.843
Yeah.
501
00:33:16.144 --> 00:33:16.604
Love that.
502
00:33:16.684 --> 00:33:17.244
Good stuff.
503
00:33:17.284 --> 00:33:17.684
Good stuff.
504
00:33:17.704 --> 00:33:18.665
You lead by example.
505
00:33:18.685 --> 00:33:27.328
And that's so important, uh, today, um, for anybody else out there, make sure you subscribe to this channel, whatever you're listening to today.
506
00:33:27.348 --> 00:33:32.191
And, um, I just really appreciate you coming on and just killer conversation.
507
00:33:32.271 --> 00:33:34.832
I mean, there's more people I wish in the world that were like you.
508
00:33:35.732 --> 00:33:36.233
Thanks, Mark.
509
00:33:36.273 --> 00:33:36.974
I appreciate that.
510
00:33:37.034 --> 00:33:37.374
Yeah.
511
00:33:37.494 --> 00:33:38.716
Okay.
512
00:33:38.996 --> 00:33:39.256
Yep.
513
00:33:39.276 --> 00:33:39.496
Yep.
514
00:33:39.516 --> 00:33:39.917
Thank you.
515
00:33:39.997 --> 00:33:40.377
All right.
516
00:33:40.578 --> 00:33:44.682
There is the one, the only Doug Crandall.
517
00:33:44.702 --> 00:33:45.423
Thank you so much.
