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Well, here's a question. If Peter Pan was a real person,
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would he be a porn user? Today we explore that
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bizarre thesis on Finding Traction.
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Welcome aboard when it comes to porn, are you stuck,
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spinning out or slipping backwards in your life? If so,
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then welcome to the Finding Traction Podcast, a show dedicated
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to those who are looking to gain recovering momentum away
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from porn and toward the life and relationships they have
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always hoped for. Now, here's your host, Vern tomky.
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Well guy. Before we get into our Peter Pans story here,
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let me just say a couple of things about connections,
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ways that you can connect with me to get help
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as you move away from porn. First of all, i'd
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love everyone to get on the Circle app. That's my
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particular way of getting information to you. If you get
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on there, it's for free. You get access to, first
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of all, a whole bunch of different documents and ways
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that you can download things that will help you in
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your journey various resources. There's also a way for you
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to watch the first two lessons of the Finding Traction
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course for free. You can go on there and watch
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the videos. First one is called Houston. We have a problem,
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and the second one is why do I do what
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I don't want to do? And it's a way for
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you to connect with some of the material. So get
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on Circle, not get on porn, get on Circle and
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it's a way for you to get some help. Also,
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if you want to find on information about a finding
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Traction group, we have seven or eight guys right now
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that want to get in a group. We're really trying
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to find a time that works for everybody. So if
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you want to get into a group. We're in the
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middle of summer and I thought it would be a
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slow time, but apparently not. It's a time that guys
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are going I need to get focused here as we
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move towards the fall, So reach out to me. I'd
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love to get you more information. Perhaps we can do
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just a free zoom call where I can explain a
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few options. Get to know you, you get to know me,
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and again love to help you. To reach out to me.
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Email me at Bandofbrothers dot care at gmail dot com.
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All right, let's get back to the podcast. Well, guys,
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I want to introduce Caleb to you this afternoon or
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whenever you're listening to this. He is a therapist, he
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is my friend. He is a member of the Finding
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Traction alumni and so welcome aboard, Caleb.
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Thank you, Vern, it's great to be here.
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Yeah, he's also a fellow Canadian. He doesn't like the
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teams I like, but we both went down almost.
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I almost wore my Philadelphia Eagles today just for you.
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And just to show you how generous, how generous my
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orthodoxy is to actually allow a true Eagles fan on
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this podcast. I have no limits, no boundaries. So there
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you go, get it.
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Yeah, it's taken about three years to build trust to
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this point. I think that's what Eli.
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I know exactly well. One of the I think in
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my alumni groups, alumni groups are those guys who've gone
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through the Finding Traction course and after fifty two weeks
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and apparently if they're not sick of hearing the sound
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of my voice, we bring those guys together. We have
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a shared vocabulary with the material. One of the cool
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things in the in the groups, I think I have
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three or four therapists like yourself, Caleb, who have made
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a real journey out of leveraging their own story to
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help other men towards freedom, especially around the area of unmanageable,
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you know, or problematic poorn news. So I'd love to
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hear a little bit of your story in terms of
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before we get into Peter Pan that has partly informed
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your journey and also kind of why it's made you
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so effective in helping other men.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely, I'll go all the way back to the beginning.
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I'll chalk about a whole bunch of stuff in the middle,
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and then we'll catch up to present day. So, going
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all the way back to the beginning, I am a
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middle child, and after I was born, my mom had
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postpartum depression and my family was going through a hard time.
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I had one older sister at the time, and then
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after me, I had a younger brother born with a
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lot of a lot of needs, a lot of health
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concerns as a co and developmental and so a lot
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of my parents' attention went rightly so towards my younger brother.
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And in that, you know, one of the lessons that
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I internalized is that maybe I couldn't count on my
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parents to meet all my needs or my emotional needs.
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Obviously not something that I would have said to myself
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as a six year old or anything, but just it's it's.
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Internalized, right.
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You kind of look back as you read your story,
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and you know, as a therapist, I believe in therapy,
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and so I've gone to a lot of it myself,
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and I can say with confidence, you know, my parents
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were were very wonderful, so loving and caring. I have
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many fond memories of my childhood, lots of fun with
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my dad, nurture from my mom.
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But like I said, one of the things.
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I struggled to believe was like, yeah, they could meet
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my emotional needs, they could be there for me, because yeah,
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they had they had other things to occupy their attention.
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And you know, I didn't feel like I could go
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to them.
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And so those feelings that I had, you know, that
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would come up naturally as a kid, like you feel embarrassed.
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What do you do when you feel embarrassed? What do
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you do when you feel.
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Sad or angry or lonely or rejected? And I became
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a very social kid, So I made friends with anyone
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who gave me the time of day. I actually once
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convinced a kid I had just met on the McDonald's
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playground that we were best friends.
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I told him about Jesus the whole bit.
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Wow.
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Yeah, I was a networker right from the right from
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a young age. And I was actually pretty good with
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girls too. Looking back, when I was six years old,
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a girl in my class give over for a visit
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with her family, family friends, and the two of us
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were playing in my room and next thing I know,
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she kissed me.
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I kiss her.
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And you know, at six years old, already I had
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that experience. And I don't know where we got, you know,
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the idea like it was, it was pretty pretty intense,
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but I remember it made me feel incredible, like I
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felt wanted, I felt desired, you know. And I'm fast
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forwarding to I'm nine years old now, and like I
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have all the confidence in the world.
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I'm a social kid.
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But my family we move from a small community to
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a big city, and I vividly remember my first day
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on that middle school playground. I'm in a new place,
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but I'm a social butterfly. I got this. So I
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go up to a kid on the playground asking to play,
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and he looks down at my shoes. Of all things,
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looks down at my shoes and says, are those sketchers?
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I was like, yeah, you like him.
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He's like huh, sketchers more like suckers and he runs away,
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super random, right, But it's stuck in my memory, and
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I have lots of other memories of you know, getting
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bullied a little bit or made fun of for this
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or for that, as middle school boys do, but flooded
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with just feelings of shame and I'm not good enough
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and I'm rejected. And who do I go to with
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those emotions, because, like I said, it's not like at
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that point, it wasn't my parents. And so I try
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the girls, right, I go to the girls. Turns out
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middle school girls much meaner than six year old girls,
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much less willing to go for a kiss. Okay, And
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so middle school was really hard for me, that is
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nuttil one of my classmates introduced me to porn.
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Right then girls became easy.
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Then girls became and that you nailed it, Verne. That's
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actually that's what I had written down. If there was
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a thought bubble above my head when I first saw porn,
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it would be she can't reject me, you know, she
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can't say no. These girls are easy, right, it feels
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like they want me right, Well.
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I so stop here. That's funny because because you had
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one of the things I talk about is you were
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created with such this need. I was between older and
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a needy younger sister, a needy older brother, same idea.
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That velcrow that was all around me, all of the
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fuzzy velcrow was just ready for the hooks, right, They
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just set me up susceptibility. Why I was so vulnerable?
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Why I it was like, oh, that makes me feel good.
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And you're right, we don't have the language for this.
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When we're six, seven, eight nine, we just go This
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just floods us with warm feelings, you know. All of
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those those negative feelings, loneliness or rejection, they just flutter away, right.
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They just flutter away. Yeah, all my problems float away.
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It's like fairy dust, right, like it just it was.
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It felt so magical, and so anytime the life didn't
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feel magical, right that I'm having an uncomfortable experience or
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a painful emotion like I'm lonely, well, Porn's there, like
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I'm sad. Porn's there, shamed, porn, angry, porn, stressed.
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You know, it's funny.
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I went to a Christian school all my life. I
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went to Christian schools, and we were required to memorize scripture, okay,
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and all throughout middlechool, in high school. My strategy for
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memorizing scripture right before I did it, I would look
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at porn because it would clear my mind before that.
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That is a fascinating memory hook. I've never heard that before.
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I don't recommend that at home. People just want to
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throw that out there.
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No, no, mean either, because it became I was dependent
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on it for mental clarity, you know, like I have
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to study for a test. A little bit of masturbation,
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a little bit of porn, Now my mind will be
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clear and I can focus.
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Yeah, I mean that followed me into adulthood too.
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What a tool regarding learning to do life. You know.
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This was a be all and all, catch all, cure
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all you know system. It's like those old westerns where
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the guy comes into town with these elixirs of you know,
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drink this and will cure all of your blames and
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your rheumatism and your or whatever all those things mean, right, yes,
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this will be that solution, right.
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Yeah.
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It was my magic potion and my uh yeah yeah,
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the magic plant, like smoke this and all your troubles
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go away, right, Akuna matata. It was it was I literally.
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I would compare you know, some of my friends in
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middle school to like Timon and Pumba. It was like,
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just watch this and all your troubles will just float away.
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Not that they use those words, but that was the
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message that I got, Like Akuna Matata, no worries, just
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look upon and it'll make you feel great.
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So how then, did you did you shift you into
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how you know, either by hook or by crook, you know,
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choosing to pursue a healing journey in this area. Obviously
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there must have been some awareness that began to settle
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in and then hard work of beginning to move away
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from it. How to just tell us a little bit
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about that, because you know, the listeners are many of
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them there in the same place, and they're going, okay, well,
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how does this journey play out for me? And you know,
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moving towards healing?
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Well, for me, I got married and I became a
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youth pastor. Oh both things that suddenly clashed with my
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porn no.
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No, yeah, okay, yeah, so that would mess with the
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fang schway a little bit, right.
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That would mess with it.
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Yeah, all of a sudden, I mean it was either
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I go underground with this, yeah, or I face it,
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and I've been my whole life such an honest. One
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memory that my family has rehearsed time and time again
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was my my sister and I when we were young.
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We were hanging out of the friends place and they
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had such cool toys. They're the first one that ever
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had transformers. Oh and my yep, my my sister maybe
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stole a Barbie or something, and I stole a transformer,
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put it and we put it in our pockets and
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we went to the door. We leave the friend's house,
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and my parents said, hey, Caleb, you ready to go?
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My sister ready to go?
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And I said, yeah, certainly, nothing in our pockets. Yeah.
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So I've never been good at keeping a secret. So
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it came out even before I got married to my wife,
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and very similarly to my church when I became a
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youth pastor there as well, I was like, I have
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to come clean. I can't live with this dishonesty. But
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I also don't know how to fix the problem, like
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I didn't have tools.
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And so in.
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Twenty sixteen, my church did the Conqueror series by Pure Desire,
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and that was the beginning of my recovery journey. Ten
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years ago, after I did the conquer, I did the
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Seven Pillars, and you know various other I went to counseling.
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I eventually found Matt Dobbshoots and started one of his groups,
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and then I found you and have been doing your groups.
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I think it's two and a half years now or
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I did the Finding traction and then now two years
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of alumni.
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Yeah, it's been great and the insights you bring and
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one of the one of the things that I introduced
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on a recent podcast. I also just got interviewed with
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Jonathan Darty from pure Sex Radio. We're going to do this.
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We did the same topic, and it's this idea in
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our journey of freedom, we hit periods of plateaus, but
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then at some point, in some way, we can have
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tipping points, tipping points where some kind of experience or
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AHA moment can meet us and actually turbocharge I know,
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I'm my metaphors are jumping all around here. Aha moment
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that kind of turbocharges our recovery into maybe a new
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level of freedom. And so that's kind of the idea.
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And in one of our recent alumni groups, you you
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shared a bit of an Aha moment you had as
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you were thinking about your recovery, thinking about some of
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the challenges you face, and as you shared it, I thought, ah,
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that is a great example of a tipping point, and
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it had to do with this mythical figure Peter Pan.
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So I don't know what we're gonna call this this,
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you know, Peter Pan porn user or Peter Pan pursuer
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of porn or all sorts of alliteration.
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But how many piece can you put in there yet exactly?
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But having said that, why don't you go ahead and
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share your your thoughts around the Disney character Peter Pan.
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And actually, which may sound okay, this sounds a little goofy, Caleb,
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but it's actually it really impacted you. So I'd love
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you to share it with the Losteners.
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M h. Yeah, Yeah, I would say that kind of
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the the root of the tree, that kind of where
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that branch came from would be the book that we
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were going through in our in our alumni group, The
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Broken Boy to Mend and many book. And there's just
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just stuff that was stirring up in my heart about
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my journey, and yeah, this idea of Peter Pan kind
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of came to mind. And so yeah, you know, one
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of the lies that I think I've been believing for
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a while, is that like this just because it's been
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with me since boy Head, it will just always be
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with this is just you know, I've I've gotten lit
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on it, you know, I only you know, kind of
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slip up every six months or so. But maybe I
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just need to you know, kind of settle here and
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not you know, think that I could actually be completely
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free of this. But in reading this book and unearthing
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some of this stuff from childhood, I realized that, like,
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there's something about growing up, if you know, I want
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to grow up before.
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I grow old.
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I can't remember who said that, but I really started
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to resonate with that idea. I want to grow up
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before I grow old and moren is like representative of
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keeping me in boyhood. And so I love stories. I
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love stories of all kind, especially like you know, fantasy
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and mythology, and so as I was thinking about an example,
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I thought Peter Pan, right, and how he refuses to
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grow up, and I saw, you know, a part of
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myself in that, like inside of me is this Peter Pan,
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the porn user kind of piece of me that just
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like refuses No, I want to live in never Land.
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I don't want to accept you know, limits and responsibility
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and you know the other things that come with growing up.
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I want to avoid those things and chase after perpetual excitement.
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And yeah, but then obviously there's another part of me
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that's like no, like we want the real world, we
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want real love. We don't want this fantasy any any longer,
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Like Neverland is lonely. We just got the Lost Boys
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for company, and here and the Mermaids, right the you
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know kind of those siren figures that they look beautiful
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and then you get a close and they just slip
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away Like that was what like porn has always felt
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like to me, like, you know, almost they're so beautiful,
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like and as I approach, it's like, whoa, this is
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what all and they're gone, like and they don't care
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about me and they don't actually want me.
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That that was just an illusion.
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And so yeah, and so I started doing research more
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on like the story of Peter Pan and yeah, one
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of the things that came up was like, you know,
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Peter flies using happy thoughts and uh, you know, you
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just gotta think happy thoughts, right, And.
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That was all since I've I've seen that. So this
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is a good a good review for me. Happy thoughts,
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got it?
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Okay, happy thoughts? Yeah?
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This this whatever you want to label it, right, the
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dopamine rush, that temporary escape from reality. That's so much
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of what porn has been for me ever since I
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was a boy. Like, you know, if life is too hard,
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just happy thoughts, just float away, you know, Kuna matata again.
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Happy thoughts are are are something which basically deny reality.
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They deny reality.
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They they put us in an alternate universe. Right, I
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just think happy thoughts. I just those kind of things.
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That's that's where you're going.
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With that, right, Yes, yeah, exactly.
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I love that phrasing deny reality, because it really is
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that that's I can escape. I don't have to face it.
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I can just float away from it. I can deny
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that it's that it's there.
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Yeah. And one of the things we're denying is the
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progressive effects that porn is having on us, Right, we
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deny all of that. This isn't changing me, this isn't
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hurting me. This is just making me feel good. Deny, deny, deny, right,
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deny just thinking happy thoughts, just thinking exciting thoughts.
360
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Yeah. Yeah, Meanwhile, you're missing out on the fullness of reality, right,
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and the relationships that could be deep and meaningful. And
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you know, pet Peter starts to in the story like
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he he begins to forget, He forgets his commitments, he
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forgets the people he loves. He and I've I've found
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that in my life with you know, with with my
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own memory, you know, fading on things and being like this,
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like this is the cost, Caleb, Like this is the cost.
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Of of porn.
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It robs you of your memories in the real world
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and your real experiences. And I'm a you know, I'm
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I'm proudly a type seven personality. Like I I love fun,
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I love living in the moment and all those types
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of things.
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You're going, what is he talking about?
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That's okay, yeah, But you know, in in kind of
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researching what is a healthy integrated you know, type seven,
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it's actually somebody who can sit in the present and
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and like.
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The real presence, you know, not floating away with a
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happy thought or with the next rush of excitement or
381
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of fantasy, but just enjoying all of reality of becoming
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truly childlike. So this is one of the things that
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I've I've really had to distinguish in my mind because
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I don't want to lose my childlikeness right as a
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as a Christian. I mean that Jesus, you know that
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that you know you need to be childlike in order
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to receive the kingdom. So I want to be childlike,
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but I don't want to be childish.
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Oh that is good, snap. That is a great distinction between.
390
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Yea and the difference for me. So being childish means,
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you know, escapism, avoidance, pouting, entitlement, irresponsibility, selfishness, those types
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of things. But being childlike it's not just you know,
393
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it's not just that I want to be a more responsible, dedicated,
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committed husband and father. I do want to be those things,
395
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but I also want to be childlike. I want to
396
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full of imagination and wonder, playfulness and curiosity and yeah
397
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and mutual trust and those type of things.
398
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And so as I've thought about this.
399
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You know, I don't just want to I don't just
400
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want to not be Peter Pan. I also want to
401
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:19.880
be I want to be like christ.
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I want to be.
403
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Let's say, like Sam Wise Gamgee right in the Lord
404
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.880
of the Rings. Ye, somebody who who is loyal and
405
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dedicated but also can be playful and loves his garden
406
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and you know, is yeah, unashamed about just taking life
407
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as it comes, but is also committed and loyal and dependable.
408
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.799
Another person that our character that I really love is
409
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Bandit Healer from The Bluey Show, Australian cartoon.
410
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.720
Okay, my kids are older, I missed that. But for
411
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those of you who are at tracking, why is that?
412
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Why is that?
413
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.519
So? It's this family of Dogs cartoon show. It's very
414
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sweet and the parents, but especially the dad. It's like,
415
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.759
you know, it wouldn't be an overstatement to say that
416
00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.200
he's a role model for me, because in one moment
417
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he can be building a you know, a blanket fort
418
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with the kids and the next be having a meaningful
419
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conversation about emotions and sadness with one of his kids.
420
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And like, that's the kind of dad that I want
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to be. That I'm emotionally attuned with my kids. You know,
422
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I can lay aside my own interests to focus on them,
423
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and I can also create fun memories and we can
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play together, and yeah, both things can can be harmoniously true.
425
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Well it's funny, you know, Caleb, is we're talking. I
426
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:44.759
think one of the concepts that I this idea of
427
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.920
growing old, but you know, before growing up, before we
428
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grow old. One of the biggest things that I saw
429
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happened with my growing up years, especially into middle school
430
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and high school, was I swear that porn simply pushed
431
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.839
put it, you know, the push the play pause button
432
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.640
on all devices these days, you know, And I feel
433
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.519
like porn simply put my life, my maturation on pause.
434
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And I don't think it's a surprise. When my wife
435
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:20.960
asked me to remember things from high school, remember things
436
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.200
from late later elementary school, I swear, you know, those
437
00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:30.160
were the last years. I can remember virtually nothing of
438
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:35.160
ten years of my life. And I'm going, like, where
439
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:41.440
was I what happened? And it's like scary scary stuff,
440
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.559
you know, early on set dementia, you know, TED to fifty,
441
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between TED and twenty, like come on. And I really
442
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.519
do think that that porn and that escape thing you're
443
00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:58.000
talking about, that flying away, that not dealing, not being present,
444
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.480
played a part of that. Yeah.
445
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.920
Yeah, I one hundred percent resonate with ever and I
446
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.200
have the same thing. I have lost years, you know,
447
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.920
when I was lost years, when I was a lost boy,
448
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.519
just escaping reality, like just you know, floating away, floating,
449
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.359
you know, not wanting to face the hard stuff of
450
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.440
life and then just using porn as this magic carpet
451
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.160
to just float away. But then forgetting it, you know,
452
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:27.240
forgetting reality. And once you start to, yeah, you get older,
453
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:29.440
it's like, oh my gosh, my memories are so valuable,
454
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.480
Like I want to be present and I also want
455
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:33.880
to remember when I was present.
456
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.200
Right, So, so as you moved into serious recovery and
457
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:45.960
pushed play on your recovery, what did it change as
458
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.640
you what changed as you move from being childish towards
459
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:54.839
being childlike in the way you approach life, in the
460
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.799
way you approach relationships? Like how did this start? Looking?
461
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.079
And I know it's one step forward, two steps back,
462
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.839
three steps forward. I know this is not a straight line.
463
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.599
But as you look back at your journey now, you know,
464
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.680
what do you see different? How do you see yourself
465
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being less like Peter Pan and more like Sam Ganji
466
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.440
or or one of these guys.
467
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:22.880
Yeah, you know. Ironically, I would say COVID helped a lot.
468
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.599
That was a really big turning point because I could
469
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:31.119
no longer throw myself into my work. You know, before that,
470
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:32.680
I was working six days a week as a youth
471
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pastor you know, five five evening commitments of different ministry things, right.
472
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.440
You know, my kids were still very young at that point,
473
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.200
and so I've kind of justified it of like, ah,
474
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.200
they won't really miss me anyways. Like, but then COVID
475
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.720
hit and it was not only cam I now I'm
476
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.240
I'm home. I also have I have more time for
477
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.160
my wife, for my kids, and also for hobbies. One
478
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.079
of the podcasts from Matt dob Shoots that consistently I've
479
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.960
re listened to more than any other one is recapturing
480
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:09.839
your creative.
481
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.680
Interests and COVID. COVID was a time to do that.
482
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.880
You know. I began to play with my kids more.
483
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.119
We did this thirty day Lego challenge in the middle
484
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.440
of COVID when everything was shut down. Just fell in
485
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.759
love with building lego with them, began this Harry Potter
486
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.200
lego collection that I actually tied. I actually tied to
487
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.519
my recovery. Obviously, my kids don't know this and I
488
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:38.279
didn't know it. One day they'll know it.
489
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:40.359
Yeah.
490
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:45.279
It was like at first it was for every you know,
491
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.079
it was like the thirty days of recovery. I would
492
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:51.359
get a small set, or I could do ninety days
493
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:55.839
and get a big set kind of thing. So yeah,
494
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:57.440
it was kind of attached to my sobriety that I
495
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.000
would buy these Lego sets with the money as a
496
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:03.440
reward for you know, something I would never have spent
497
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.519
money on otherwise. But it was just the perfect timing,
498
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.720
and it was this chance to get in touch with
499
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.279
my inner child and a playfulness aspect, but also it
500
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.160
was for something bigger. It's this legacy, it's this thing
501
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.799
to do with my kids. And so eventually it became
502
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.799
instead of this this for this many days porn free
503
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.880
you get a Lego set, it was for every recovery
504
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.160
action that I do every day, that's just one dollar
505
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.519
in the Lego piggybank kind of a thing.
506
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:31.960
Love it.
507
00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.960
Yeah, yeah, move on to that.
508
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:39.079
And what that says to me is you have been
509
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:44.599
slowly but surely stepping into responsibility, something that Peter Pan
510
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:45.880
studiously avoided.
511
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.200
Say, Like, another thing that that COVID brought out for
512
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.839
me was this I was able to pursue the dream
513
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:54.440
of becoming a counselor, right, which yeah, I mean I
514
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:56.440
shouldn't say that it was COVID that did that, but
515
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.680
it gave me the space to be like, what, like, yeah,
516
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.680
how do I want the next thirty years of my
517
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:03.160
life to go?
518
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:04.880
You know?
519
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.240
At age thirty is when I started my counseling degree
520
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.640
and I was like, Okay, let's let's pursue this dream.
521
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.880
And I that was very much like kind of like
522
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:14.960
it's it's a risk, but it was also like a
523
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.839
taking a responsibility thing, right I Like, I don't think
524
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.200
this youth pastor thing is going to last, right, Like,
525
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.759
I just it's unsustainable, especially with five kids and wanting
526
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:25.519
to be present to them.
527
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.079
You know. Yeah, let me just say I think I
528
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:31.640
think one of the things it enabled you to do
529
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.920
is start looking towards the future and asking longer term questions.
530
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.279
You weren't just floating and letting life come to you. Well,
531
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.079
whatever plays out plays out. When you were in COVID
532
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.480
and you said, you know what, I don't think this
533
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.240
is a long term stable thing for me to do.
534
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:55.680
I don't see much. But a lot of guys go, well,
535
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.960
it's just too much work, too much, too much work
536
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.079
to take take the steps towards being a therapist, being
537
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.039
a counselor, which you did, which is another part of
538
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:10.720
what stepping up and taking responsibility for your family, your future,
539
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:17.119
your career. Right, that's a huge step. Yeah, responsibility, right,
540
00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:21.119
growing up some of those areas and so yeah, that
541
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.519
is exciting to hear. But I really love the fact
542
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.799
that you did a great example of saying we don't
543
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.799
lose that joy for life. We don't lose that being
544
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.000
able to be childlike, having a twinkle in our eye,
545
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.559
you know, being able to crack a joke, being able
546
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:43.440
to really enjoy life, enjoy good friendships, you know those
547
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.160
kind of things. Right. That's cool, and you've been a
548
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.720
great example in our alumni group. You have a group
549
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:52.079
of friends you hang out with, you have a number
550
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.400
of self care things beyond Lego that are part of it.
551
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:01.279
So well, if any of you need a great therapist,
552
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.200
especially in Canada, hit me up and I'll pass somebody's
553
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:10.920
certain somebody's name on. But Caleb, it's been great having
554
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:16.920
you on. Here's towards continuing to be childlike and not childish.
555
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.039
So yeah, thanks for coming on again. It was great
556
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:20.440
to have you.
557
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:22.440
Absolutely thank you for having me.
558
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:22.720
Barn
1
00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:05.080
Well, here's a question. If Peter Pan was a real person,
2
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:10.839
would he be a porn user? Today we explore that
3
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.640
bizarre thesis on Finding Traction.
4
00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:28.640
Welcome aboard when it comes to porn, are you stuck,
5
00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:33.520
spinning out or slipping backwards in your life? If so,
6
00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:38.759
then welcome to the Finding Traction Podcast, a show dedicated
7
00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:42.359
to those who are looking to gain recovering momentum away
8
00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.960
from porn and toward the life and relationships they have
9
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.640
always hoped for. Now, here's your host, Vern tomky.
10
00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.679
Well guy. Before we get into our Peter Pans story here,
11
00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:06.280
let me just say a couple of things about connections,
12
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:09.159
ways that you can connect with me to get help
13
00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:11.640
as you move away from porn. First of all, i'd
14
00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.480
love everyone to get on the Circle app. That's my
15
00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.719
particular way of getting information to you. If you get
16
00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:22.000
on there, it's for free. You get access to, first
17
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.200
of all, a whole bunch of different documents and ways
18
00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:28.040
that you can download things that will help you in
19
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:31.599
your journey various resources. There's also a way for you
20
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.599
to watch the first two lessons of the Finding Traction
21
00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:37.879
course for free. You can go on there and watch
22
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.920
the videos. First one is called Houston. We have a problem,
23
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:44.000
and the second one is why do I do what
24
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:46.760
I don't want to do? And it's a way for
25
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.799
you to connect with some of the material. So get
26
00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:52.640
on Circle, not get on porn, get on Circle and
27
00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.879
it's a way for you to get some help. Also,
28
00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:58.719
if you want to find on information about a finding
29
00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.040
Traction group, we have seven or eight guys right now
30
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:05.040
that want to get in a group. We're really trying
31
00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.840
to find a time that works for everybody. So if
32
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.960
you want to get into a group. We're in the
33
00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.080
middle of summer and I thought it would be a
34
00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.639
slow time, but apparently not. It's a time that guys
35
00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:19.360
are going I need to get focused here as we
36
00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.439
move towards the fall, So reach out to me. I'd
37
00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:24.960
love to get you more information. Perhaps we can do
38
00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.479
just a free zoom call where I can explain a
39
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.360
few options. Get to know you, you get to know me,
40
00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.120
and again love to help you. To reach out to me.
41
00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:41.240
Email me at Bandofbrothers dot care at gmail dot com.
42
00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:44.759
All right, let's get back to the podcast. Well, guys,
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00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:48.759
I want to introduce Caleb to you this afternoon or
44
00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.639
whenever you're listening to this. He is a therapist, he
45
00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.800
is my friend. He is a member of the Finding
46
00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:58.479
Traction alumni and so welcome aboard, Caleb.
47
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.479
Thank you, Vern, it's great to be here.
48
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.400
Yeah, he's also a fellow Canadian. He doesn't like the
49
00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:08.919
teams I like, but we both went down almost.
50
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.680
I almost wore my Philadelphia Eagles today just for you.
51
00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.000
And just to show you how generous, how generous my
52
00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:22.879
orthodoxy is to actually allow a true Eagles fan on
53
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this podcast. I have no limits, no boundaries. So there
54
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:29.400
you go, get it.
55
00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.960
Yeah, it's taken about three years to build trust to
56
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:34.159
this point. I think that's what Eli.
57
00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.599
I know exactly well. One of the I think in
58
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.400
my alumni groups, alumni groups are those guys who've gone
59
00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.159
through the Finding Traction course and after fifty two weeks
60
00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.719
and apparently if they're not sick of hearing the sound
61
00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.360
of my voice, we bring those guys together. We have
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a shared vocabulary with the material. One of the cool
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things in the in the groups, I think I have
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three or four therapists like yourself, Caleb, who have made
65
00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:06.879
a real journey out of leveraging their own story to
66
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:13.319
help other men towards freedom, especially around the area of unmanageable,
67
00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.680
you know, or problematic poorn news. So I'd love to
68
00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.360
hear a little bit of your story in terms of
69
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before we get into Peter Pan that has partly informed
70
00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.319
your journey and also kind of why it's made you
71
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:27.959
so effective in helping other men.
72
00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:28.480
Yeah.
73
00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.279
Absolutely, I'll go all the way back to the beginning.
74
00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:33.120
I'll chalk about a whole bunch of stuff in the middle,
75
00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:36.720
and then we'll catch up to present day. So, going
76
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.319
all the way back to the beginning, I am a
77
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:43.720
middle child, and after I was born, my mom had
78
00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:49.800
postpartum depression and my family was going through a hard time.
79
00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:52.480
I had one older sister at the time, and then
80
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after me, I had a younger brother born with a
81
00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:57.600
lot of a lot of needs, a lot of health
82
00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.800
concerns as a co and developmental and so a lot
83
00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:06.399
of my parents' attention went rightly so towards my younger brother.
84
00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.480
And in that, you know, one of the lessons that
85
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I internalized is that maybe I couldn't count on my
86
00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.240
parents to meet all my needs or my emotional needs.
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Obviously not something that I would have said to myself
88
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.040
as a six year old or anything, but just it's it's.
89
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Internalized, right.
90
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.600
You kind of look back as you read your story,
91
00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.480
and you know, as a therapist, I believe in therapy,
92
00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:32.079
and so I've gone to a lot of it myself,
93
00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.439
and I can say with confidence, you know, my parents
94
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were were very wonderful, so loving and caring. I have
95
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.439
many fond memories of my childhood, lots of fun with
96
00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.160
my dad, nurture from my mom.
97
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.879
But like I said, one of the things.
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00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:47.680
I struggled to believe was like, yeah, they could meet
99
00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:52.879
my emotional needs, they could be there for me, because yeah,
100
00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.079
they had they had other things to occupy their attention.
101
00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:02.120
And you know, I didn't feel like I could go
102
00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:02.560
to them.
103
00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.759
And so those feelings that I had, you know, that
104
00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.160
would come up naturally as a kid, like you feel embarrassed.
105
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:09.759
What do you do when you feel embarrassed? What do
106
00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:10.720
you do when you feel.
107
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Sad or angry or lonely or rejected? And I became
108
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a very social kid, So I made friends with anyone
109
00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.079
who gave me the time of day. I actually once
110
00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:22.959
convinced a kid I had just met on the McDonald's
111
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playground that we were best friends.
112
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I told him about Jesus the whole bit.
113
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Wow.
114
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Yeah, I was a networker right from the right from
115
00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.360
a young age. And I was actually pretty good with
116
00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.800
girls too. Looking back, when I was six years old,
117
00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.240
a girl in my class give over for a visit
118
00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.519
with her family, family friends, and the two of us
119
00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:45.439
were playing in my room and next thing I know,
120
00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:46.079
she kissed me.
121
00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:46.839
I kiss her.
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00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.759
And you know, at six years old, already I had
123
00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.240
that experience. And I don't know where we got, you know,
124
00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:57.560
the idea like it was, it was pretty pretty intense,
125
00:06:57.600 --> 00:06:59.639
but I remember it made me feel incredible, like I
126
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:06.480
felt wanted, I felt desired, you know. And I'm fast
127
00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:10.680
forwarding to I'm nine years old now, and like I
128
00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.160
have all the confidence in the world.
129
00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:13.360
I'm a social kid.
130
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.120
But my family we move from a small community to
131
00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:20.160
a big city, and I vividly remember my first day
132
00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:23.759
on that middle school playground. I'm in a new place,
133
00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.879
but I'm a social butterfly. I got this. So I
134
00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.839
go up to a kid on the playground asking to play,
135
00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.439
and he looks down at my shoes. Of all things,
136
00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.480
looks down at my shoes and says, are those sketchers?
137
00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:35.680
I was like, yeah, you like him.
138
00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:40.480
He's like huh, sketchers more like suckers and he runs away,
139
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.480
super random, right, But it's stuck in my memory, and
140
00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.279
I have lots of other memories of you know, getting
141
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:47.160
bullied a little bit or made fun of for this
142
00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.639
or for that, as middle school boys do, but flooded
143
00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.480
with just feelings of shame and I'm not good enough
144
00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:55.639
and I'm rejected. And who do I go to with
145
00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.120
those emotions, because, like I said, it's not like at
146
00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:01.680
that point, it wasn't my parents. And so I try
147
00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.560
the girls, right, I go to the girls. Turns out
148
00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.720
middle school girls much meaner than six year old girls,
149
00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:11.480
much less willing to go for a kiss. Okay, And
150
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.439
so middle school was really hard for me, that is
151
00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.879
nuttil one of my classmates introduced me to porn.
152
00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:19.839
Right then girls became easy.
153
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.839
Then girls became and that you nailed it, Verne. That's
154
00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:26.040
actually that's what I had written down. If there was
155
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:29.240
a thought bubble above my head when I first saw porn,
156
00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.159
it would be she can't reject me, you know, she
157
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.000
can't say no. These girls are easy, right, it feels
158
00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.399
like they want me right, Well.
159
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.039
I so stop here. That's funny because because you had
160
00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.879
one of the things I talk about is you were
161
00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.559
created with such this need. I was between older and
162
00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.000
a needy younger sister, a needy older brother, same idea.
163
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.480
That velcrow that was all around me, all of the
164
00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.639
fuzzy velcrow was just ready for the hooks, right, They
165
00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.600
just set me up susceptibility. Why I was so vulnerable?
166
00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.279
Why I it was like, oh, that makes me feel good.
167
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:13.000
And you're right, we don't have the language for this.
168
00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:17.200
When we're six, seven, eight nine, we just go This
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just floods us with warm feelings, you know. All of
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those those negative feelings, loneliness or rejection, they just flutter away, right.
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They just flutter away. Yeah, all my problems float away.
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It's like fairy dust, right, like it just it was.
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It felt so magical, and so anytime the life didn't
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feel magical, right that I'm having an uncomfortable experience or
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a painful emotion like I'm lonely, well, Porn's there, like
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I'm sad. Porn's there, shamed, porn, angry, porn, stressed.
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You know, it's funny.
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I went to a Christian school all my life. I
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went to Christian schools, and we were required to memorize scripture, okay,
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and all throughout middlechool, in high school. My strategy for
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memorizing scripture right before I did it, I would look
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at porn because it would clear my mind before that.
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That is a fascinating memory hook. I've never heard that before.
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I don't recommend that at home. People just want to
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throw that out there.
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No, no, mean either, because it became I was dependent
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on it for mental clarity, you know, like I have
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to study for a test. A little bit of masturbation,
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a little bit of porn, Now my mind will be
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clear and I can focus.
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Yeah, I mean that followed me into adulthood too.
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What a tool regarding learning to do life. You know.
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This was a be all and all, catch all, cure
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all you know system. It's like those old westerns where
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the guy comes into town with these elixirs of you know,
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drink this and will cure all of your blames and
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your rheumatism and your or whatever all those things mean, right, yes,
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this will be that solution, right.
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Yeah.
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It was my magic potion and my uh yeah yeah,
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the magic plant, like smoke this and all your troubles
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go away, right, Akuna matata. It was it was I literally.
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I would compare you know, some of my friends in
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middle school to like Timon and Pumba. It was like,
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just watch this and all your troubles will just float away.
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Not that they use those words, but that was the
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message that I got, Like Akuna Matata, no worries, just
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look upon and it'll make you feel great.
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So how then, did you did you shift you into
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how you know, either by hook or by crook, you know,
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choosing to pursue a healing journey in this area. Obviously
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there must have been some awareness that began to settle
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in and then hard work of beginning to move away
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from it. How to just tell us a little bit
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about that, because you know, the listeners are many of
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them there in the same place, and they're going, okay, well,
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how does this journey play out for me? And you know,
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moving towards healing?
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Well, for me, I got married and I became a
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youth pastor. Oh both things that suddenly clashed with my
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porn no.
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No, yeah, okay, yeah, so that would mess with the
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fang schway a little bit, right.
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That would mess with it.
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Yeah, all of a sudden, I mean it was either
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I go underground with this, yeah, or I face it,
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and I've been my whole life such an honest. One
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memory that my family has rehearsed time and time again
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was my my sister and I when we were young.
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We were hanging out of the friends place and they
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had such cool toys. They're the first one that ever
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had transformers. Oh and my yep, my my sister maybe
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stole a Barbie or something, and I stole a transformer,
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put it and we put it in our pockets and
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we went to the door. We leave the friend's house,
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and my parents said, hey, Caleb, you ready to go?
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My sister ready to go?
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And I said, yeah, certainly, nothing in our pockets. Yeah.
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So I've never been good at keeping a secret. So
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it came out even before I got married to my wife,
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and very similarly to my church when I became a
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youth pastor there as well, I was like, I have
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to come clean. I can't live with this dishonesty. But
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I also don't know how to fix the problem, like
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I didn't have tools.
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And so in.
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Twenty sixteen, my church did the Conqueror series by Pure Desire,
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and that was the beginning of my recovery journey. Ten
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years ago, after I did the conquer, I did the
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Seven Pillars, and you know various other I went to counseling.
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I eventually found Matt Dobbshoots and started one of his groups,
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and then I found you and have been doing your groups.
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I think it's two and a half years now or
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I did the Finding traction and then now two years
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of alumni.
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Yeah, it's been great and the insights you bring and
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one of the one of the things that I introduced
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on a recent podcast. I also just got interviewed with
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Jonathan Darty from pure Sex Radio. We're going to do this.
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We did the same topic, and it's this idea in
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our journey of freedom, we hit periods of plateaus, but
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then at some point, in some way, we can have
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tipping points, tipping points where some kind of experience or
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AHA moment can meet us and actually turbocharge I know,
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I'm my metaphors are jumping all around here. Aha moment
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that kind of turbocharges our recovery into maybe a new
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level of freedom. And so that's kind of the idea.
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And in one of our recent alumni groups, you you
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shared a bit of an Aha moment you had as
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you were thinking about your recovery, thinking about some of
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the challenges you face, and as you shared it, I thought, ah,
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that is a great example of a tipping point, and
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it had to do with this mythical figure Peter Pan.
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So I don't know what we're gonna call this this,
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you know, Peter Pan porn user or Peter Pan pursuer
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of porn or all sorts of alliteration.
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But how many piece can you put in there yet exactly?
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But having said that, why don't you go ahead and
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share your your thoughts around the Disney character Peter Pan.
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And actually, which may sound okay, this sounds a little goofy, Caleb,
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but it's actually it really impacted you. So I'd love
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you to share it with the Losteners.
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M h. Yeah, Yeah, I would say that kind of
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the the root of the tree, that kind of where
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that branch came from would be the book that we
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were going through in our in our alumni group, The
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Broken Boy to Mend and many book. And there's just
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just stuff that was stirring up in my heart about
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my journey, and yeah, this idea of Peter Pan kind
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of came to mind. And so yeah, you know, one
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of the lies that I think I've been believing for
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a while, is that like this just because it's been
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with me since boy Head, it will just always be
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with this is just you know, I've I've gotten lit
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on it, you know, I only you know, kind of
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slip up every six months or so. But maybe I
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just need to you know, kind of settle here and
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not you know, think that I could actually be completely
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free of this. But in reading this book and unearthing
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some of this stuff from childhood, I realized that, like,
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there's something about growing up, if you know, I want
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to grow up before.
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I grow old.
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I can't remember who said that, but I really started
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to resonate with that idea. I want to grow up
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before I grow old and moren is like representative of
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keeping me in boyhood. And so I love stories. I
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love stories of all kind, especially like you know, fantasy
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and mythology, and so as I was thinking about an example,
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I thought Peter Pan, right, and how he refuses to
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grow up, and I saw, you know, a part of
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myself in that, like inside of me is this Peter Pan,
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the porn user kind of piece of me that just
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like refuses No, I want to live in never Land.
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I don't want to accept you know, limits and responsibility
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and you know the other things that come with growing up.
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I want to avoid those things and chase after perpetual excitement.
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And yeah, but then obviously there's another part of me
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that's like no, like we want the real world, we
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want real love. We don't want this fantasy any any longer,
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Like Neverland is lonely. We just got the Lost Boys
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for company, and here and the Mermaids, right the you
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know kind of those siren figures that they look beautiful
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and then you get a close and they just slip
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away Like that was what like porn has always felt
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like to me, like, you know, almost they're so beautiful,
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like and as I approach, it's like, whoa, this is
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what all and they're gone, like and they don't care
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about me and they don't actually want me.
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That that was just an illusion.
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And so yeah, and so I started doing research more
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on like the story of Peter Pan and yeah, one
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of the things that came up was like, you know,
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Peter flies using happy thoughts and uh, you know, you
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just gotta think happy thoughts, right, And.
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That was all since I've I've seen that. So this
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is a good a good review for me. Happy thoughts,
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got it?
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Okay, happy thoughts? Yeah?
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This this whatever you want to label it, right, the
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dopamine rush, that temporary escape from reality. That's so much
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of what porn has been for me ever since I
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was a boy. Like, you know, if life is too hard,
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just happy thoughts, just float away, you know, Kuna matata again.
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Happy thoughts are are are something which basically deny reality.
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They deny reality.
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They they put us in an alternate universe. Right, I
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just think happy thoughts. I just those kind of things.
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That's that's where you're going.
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With that, right, Yes, yeah, exactly.
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I love that phrasing deny reality, because it really is
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that that's I can escape. I don't have to face it.
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I can just float away from it. I can deny
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that it's that it's there.
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Yeah. And one of the things we're denying is the
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progressive effects that porn is having on us, Right, we
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deny all of that. This isn't changing me, this isn't
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hurting me. This is just making me feel good. Deny, deny, deny, right,
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deny just thinking happy thoughts, just thinking exciting thoughts.
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Yeah. Yeah, Meanwhile, you're missing out on the fullness of reality, right,
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and the relationships that could be deep and meaningful. And
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you know, pet Peter starts to in the story like
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he he begins to forget, He forgets his commitments, he
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forgets the people he loves. He and I've I've found
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that in my life with you know, with with my
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own memory, you know, fading on things and being like this,
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like this is the cost, Caleb, Like this is the cost.
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Of of porn.
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It robs you of your memories in the real world
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and your real experiences. And I'm a you know, I'm
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I'm proudly a type seven personality. Like I I love fun,
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I love living in the moment and all those types
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of things.
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You're going, what is he talking about?
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That's okay, yeah, But you know, in in kind of
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researching what is a healthy integrated you know, type seven,
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it's actually somebody who can sit in the present and
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and like.
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The real presence, you know, not floating away with a
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happy thought or with the next rush of excitement or
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of fantasy, but just enjoying all of reality of becoming
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truly childlike. So this is one of the things that
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I've I've really had to distinguish in my mind because
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I don't want to lose my childlikeness right as a
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as a Christian. I mean that Jesus, you know that
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that you know you need to be childlike in order
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to receive the kingdom. So I want to be childlike,
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but I don't want to be childish.
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Oh that is good, snap. That is a great distinction between.
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Yea and the difference for me. So being childish means,
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you know, escapism, avoidance, pouting, entitlement, irresponsibility, selfishness, those types
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of things. But being childlike it's not just you know,
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it's not just that I want to be a more responsible, dedicated,
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committed husband and father. I do want to be those things,
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but I also want to be childlike. I want to
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full of imagination and wonder, playfulness and curiosity and yeah
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and mutual trust and those type of things.
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And so as I've thought about this.
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You know, I don't just want to I don't just
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want to not be Peter Pan. I also want to
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be I want to be like christ.
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I want to be.
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Let's say, like Sam Wise Gamgee right in the Lord
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of the Rings. Ye, somebody who who is loyal and
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dedicated but also can be playful and loves his garden
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and you know, is yeah, unashamed about just taking life
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as it comes, but is also committed and loyal and dependable.
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Another person that our character that I really love is
409
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:51.000
Bandit Healer from The Bluey Show, Australian cartoon.
410
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.720
Okay, my kids are older, I missed that. But for
411
00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.680
those of you who are at tracking, why is that?
412
00:22:57.759 --> 00:22:58.160
Why is that?
413
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.519
So? It's this family of Dogs cartoon show. It's very
414
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:07.200
sweet and the parents, but especially the dad. It's like,
415
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.759
you know, it wouldn't be an overstatement to say that
416
00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.200
he's a role model for me, because in one moment
417
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:15.680
he can be building a you know, a blanket fort
418
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.480
with the kids and the next be having a meaningful
419
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.400
conversation about emotions and sadness with one of his kids.
420
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:22.799
And like, that's the kind of dad that I want
421
00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.200
to be. That I'm emotionally attuned with my kids. You know,
422
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.119
I can lay aside my own interests to focus on them,
423
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:32.559
and I can also create fun memories and we can
424
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:38.559
play together, and yeah, both things can can be harmoniously true.
425
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.079
Well it's funny, you know, Caleb, is we're talking. I
426
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:44.759
think one of the concepts that I this idea of
427
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.920
growing old, but you know, before growing up, before we
428
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.279
grow old. One of the biggest things that I saw
429
00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.240
happened with my growing up years, especially into middle school
430
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.680
and high school, was I swear that porn simply pushed
431
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.839
put it, you know, the push the play pause button
432
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.640
on all devices these days, you know, And I feel
433
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.519
like porn simply put my life, my maturation on pause.
434
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:15.640
And I don't think it's a surprise. When my wife
435
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:20.960
asked me to remember things from high school, remember things
436
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.200
from late later elementary school, I swear, you know, those
437
00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:30.160
were the last years. I can remember virtually nothing of
438
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:35.160
ten years of my life. And I'm going, like, where
439
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:41.440
was I what happened? And it's like scary scary stuff,
440
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.559
you know, early on set dementia, you know, TED to fifty,
441
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.920
between TED and twenty, like come on. And I really
442
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.519
do think that that porn and that escape thing you're
443
00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:58.000
talking about, that flying away, that not dealing, not being present,
444
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.480
played a part of that. Yeah.
445
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.920
Yeah, I one hundred percent resonate with ever and I
446
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.200
have the same thing. I have lost years, you know,
447
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.920
when I was lost years, when I was a lost boy,
448
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.519
just escaping reality, like just you know, floating away, floating,
449
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.359
you know, not wanting to face the hard stuff of
450
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.440
life and then just using porn as this magic carpet
451
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.160
to just float away. But then forgetting it, you know,
452
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:27.240
forgetting reality. And once you start to, yeah, you get older,
453
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:29.440
it's like, oh my gosh, my memories are so valuable,
454
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.480
Like I want to be present and I also want
455
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:33.880
to remember when I was present.
456
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.200
Right, So, so as you moved into serious recovery and
457
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:45.960
pushed play on your recovery, what did it change as
458
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.640
you what changed as you move from being childish towards
459
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:54.839
being childlike in the way you approach life, in the
460
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.799
way you approach relationships? Like how did this start? Looking?
461
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.079
And I know it's one step forward, two steps back,
462
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.839
three steps forward. I know this is not a straight line.
463
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.599
But as you look back at your journey now, you know,
464
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.680
what do you see different? How do you see yourself
465
00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:14.519
being less like Peter Pan and more like Sam Ganji
466
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.440
or or one of these guys.
467
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:22.880
Yeah, you know. Ironically, I would say COVID helped a lot.
468
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.599
That was a really big turning point because I could
469
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:31.119
no longer throw myself into my work. You know, before that,
470
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:32.680
I was working six days a week as a youth
471
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.839
pastor you know, five five evening commitments of different ministry things, right.
472
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.440
You know, my kids were still very young at that point,
473
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.200
and so I've kind of justified it of like, ah,
474
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.200
they won't really miss me anyways. Like, but then COVID
475
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.720
hit and it was not only cam I now I'm
476
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.240
I'm home. I also have I have more time for
477
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.160
my wife, for my kids, and also for hobbies. One
478
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.079
of the podcasts from Matt dob Shoots that consistently I've
479
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.960
re listened to more than any other one is recapturing
480
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:09.839
your creative.
481
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.680
Interests and COVID. COVID was a time to do that.
482
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.880
You know. I began to play with my kids more.
483
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.119
We did this thirty day Lego challenge in the middle
484
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.440
of COVID when everything was shut down. Just fell in
485
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.759
love with building lego with them, began this Harry Potter
486
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.200
lego collection that I actually tied. I actually tied to
487
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.519
my recovery. Obviously, my kids don't know this and I
488
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:38.279
didn't know it. One day they'll know it.
489
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:40.359
Yeah.
490
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:45.279
It was like at first it was for every you know,
491
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.079
it was like the thirty days of recovery. I would
492
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:51.359
get a small set, or I could do ninety days
493
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:55.839
and get a big set kind of thing. So yeah,
494
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:57.440
it was kind of attached to my sobriety that I
495
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.000
would buy these Lego sets with the money as a
496
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:03.440
reward for you know, something I would never have spent
497
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.519
money on otherwise. But it was just the perfect timing,
498
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.720
and it was this chance to get in touch with
499
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.279
my inner child and a playfulness aspect, but also it
500
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.160
was for something bigger. It's this legacy, it's this thing
501
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.799
to do with my kids. And so eventually it became
502
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.799
instead of this this for this many days porn free
503
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.880
you get a Lego set, it was for every recovery
504
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.160
action that I do every day, that's just one dollar
505
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.519
in the Lego piggybank kind of a thing.
506
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:31.960
Love it.
507
00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.960
Yeah, yeah, move on to that.
508
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:39.079
And what that says to me is you have been
509
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:44.599
slowly but surely stepping into responsibility, something that Peter Pan
510
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:45.880
studiously avoided.
511
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.200
Say, Like, another thing that that COVID brought out for
512
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.839
me was this I was able to pursue the dream
513
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:54.440
of becoming a counselor, right, which yeah, I mean I
514
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:56.440
shouldn't say that it was COVID that did that, but
515
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.680
it gave me the space to be like, what, like, yeah,
516
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.680
how do I want the next thirty years of my
517
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:03.160
life to go?
518
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:04.880
You know?
519
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.240
At age thirty is when I started my counseling degree
520
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.640
and I was like, Okay, let's let's pursue this dream.
521
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.880
And I that was very much like kind of like
522
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:14.960
it's it's a risk, but it was also like a
523
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.839
taking a responsibility thing, right I Like, I don't think
524
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.200
this youth pastor thing is going to last, right, Like,
525
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.759
I just it's unsustainable, especially with five kids and wanting
526
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:25.519
to be present to them.
527
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.079
You know. Yeah, let me just say I think I
528
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:31.640
think one of the things it enabled you to do
529
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.920
is start looking towards the future and asking longer term questions.
530
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.279
You weren't just floating and letting life come to you. Well,
531
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.079
whatever plays out plays out. When you were in COVID
532
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.480
and you said, you know what, I don't think this
533
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.240
is a long term stable thing for me to do.
534
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:55.680
I don't see much. But a lot of guys go, well,
535
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.960
it's just too much work, too much, too much work
536
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.079
to take take the steps towards being a therapist, being
537
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.039
a counselor, which you did, which is another part of
538
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:10.720
what stepping up and taking responsibility for your family, your future,
539
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:17.119
your career. Right, that's a huge step. Yeah, responsibility, right,
540
00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:21.119
growing up some of those areas and so yeah, that
541
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.519
is exciting to hear. But I really love the fact
542
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.799
that you did a great example of saying we don't
543
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.799
lose that joy for life. We don't lose that being
544
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.000
able to be childlike, having a twinkle in our eye,
545
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.559
you know, being able to crack a joke, being able
546
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:43.440
to really enjoy life, enjoy good friendships, you know those
547
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.160
kind of things. Right. That's cool, and you've been a
548
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.720
great example in our alumni group. You have a group
549
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:52.079
of friends you hang out with, you have a number
550
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.400
of self care things beyond Lego that are part of it.
551
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:01.279
So well, if any of you need a great therapist,
552
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.200
especially in Canada, hit me up and I'll pass somebody's
553
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:10.920
certain somebody's name on. But Caleb, it's been great having
554
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:16.920
you on. Here's towards continuing to be childlike and not childish.
555
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.039
So yeah, thanks for coming on again. It was great
556
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:20.440
to have you.
557
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:22.440
Absolutely thank you for having me.
558
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:22.720
Barn
