Episode 37 - It Made Sense at the Time: Debating Plot Holes from Indy to Middle‑Earth

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Welcome to Fictional Problems, the podcast where we take a closer look at all
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things writing in association with Speculative Fiction Ireland.
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In this episode, we're diving into some of fiction's most talked about plot
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holes and story inconsistencies, from Indiana Jones, The Lord of the Rings,
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to Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Back to the Future, and beyond.
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We'll be asking, are these really plot holes, or are we just being too picky?
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We'll also take a look at what a plot hole actually is, what a plot device is,
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and why the difference matters.
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So join us as we pick apart the stories we love and see whether they really
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hold up on their scrutiny.
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Welcome back to Fictional Problems, a podcast where we discuss all things writing
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with myself, Gary J. Martin, and myself, A.O.R. McNevin.
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Now, since you just revealed that completely new power and saved the world,
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I think that wraps up the whole thing in a neat little bundle.
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Except for the fact that we never previously explained that you had that power,
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and that was a major plot hole in the recent events that obviously the audience
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aren't aware of because they weren't there.
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But he did save the world. Yes, I saved the world, and you'll be thanking me for it. Yes, indeed.
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But unfortunately, there is a major plot hole in that whole sequence of events,
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and plot holes are what we are going to discuss today.
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Awesome. Yes, indeed. So in order to do that... Surprise plot holes.
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I think we are going to... Well,
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we're going to maybe discuss a couple of plot holes right off the bat.
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In movies and books we might get to, but in movies it's a lot easier because
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people probably More likely to have seen them than the books. Yes, yes, yes.
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So if we were to, for example, if I was to say Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark.
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You know, as I was driving over here, I thought the one that Gary is not going
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to, because this is all this from you, that the one that you're not going to pick.
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Was Raiders of the Lost Ark. Really?
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Yes. Okay. Because it's one that came straight to mind. Really? Okay.
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So, give them, lay it out.
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Why is that, why has it got a plot hole?
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Well, it probably has a number of them, but I mean, people are willing to kind
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of, first, should we discuss what a plot hole is?
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Sure. So, I guess a, well,
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a plot hole is a, a piece of, the plot that is either absence or is trying to
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be is covered by a contrivance yeah that is insufficient to get the,
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the plot from a to c yeah it is a missing b uh okay yeah it is it's kind of
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a point in the story where you're like wait what how what how did it get how
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did he do that it was never explained yes,
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this character could fly it's on the cutting room floor it was previously filmed
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but gone there's something about it that,
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sometimes they can it can be simply a feeling that something is not really kosher
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exactly that everything has been said but.
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The line I like is putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable that,
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all the words are there but it's still it can still feel plot holy so sometimes
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it's sometimes there's a gaping,
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gap of like Jack on the on the Titanic uh-huh the board yeah the the wardrobe
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yeah like there's more than the fucking room get the move your Kate move your ass,
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That was apparently explained in, as I say, tried to do it, and then it tried
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almost over, flipped over.
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Show it. Yes, but it wasn't shown.
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Given that it was a three-hour movie, because they couldn't do a three-hour,
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one-minute movie, I don't know why.
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But yeah, that's the sort of thing. So they're kind of like inconsistencies in the story.
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In certain books like that it authors might at some point kind of shoehorn in either,
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an unknown or a character might like there are many different types of plot
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holes for example one is like important information that a character receives
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and then them completely forgetting it later on yes yeah because of yes so they,
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and indeed that could be just a you know the scenes were jumbled around yeah that made pretty sense.
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That scene that used to be X number minutes into the screenplay now got moved
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to the first and then they didn't the first scene and they didn't pick it up
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on continuity and they didn't make the changes,
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so yes so that but the causes of it is also something that I guess we can get
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into fixes I think or we're going to maybe try our write our hands at maybe
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fixing somebody's yes we're going to kind,
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of break the rule again after breaking the rule so many times advice, just stab at, maybe.
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Sure, but I guess we're better than George Lucas, clearly.
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Well, yeah, we'll get to Star Wars, because there's... Is there? Star Wars.
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So, at the top, I mentioned Raiders of the Lost Ark, and specifically,
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and there is actually in existence a fix for this plot hole,
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so maybe this is a bit of a cheat on our part, but it's the point where Indiana
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Jones and Marion are tied to the stake, and they're opening the Ark of the Covenant. Right.
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The power of God comes out of the Ark and starts melting Nazi faces. Yes.
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Woo! And Indiana Jones and Marion survive because Indy says, Marion, don't look.
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Yes. Keep your eyes closed. Yes.
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How did he know that? At no point throughout the entire rest of the story does
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Indy learn that the power of God from the Ark of the Covenant will kill you
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if you look upon it. Yes, he does.
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No, it was, and this is what I mean, this is what I'm starting with this one
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because it's a very easy, easy fix.
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There is a scene in, that was deleted from Raiders of the Lost Ark in which
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Indy and Salah are discussing the headpiece.
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And there's an old wise man who's there you don't see him in the actual movie
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but an old wise man he's interpreting the runes and symbols around the headpiece
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and he actually reads it to say that,
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essentially that no one can look upon the power of God and survive and that
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scene was removed Okay then I'm going to have to go back and re-watch this is
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giving me excellent reason to go back and re-watch Raiders Yeah, any excuse?
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That I have a clear image in my head of Indy going to a,
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it was a, it's a black and white what looks like pencil drawn image in a book
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of the rays of the light coming out and people dying all around.
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Yeah, that's when he's in the museum talking. Yes, at the start.
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But he is, he's saying to the government guys saying that any army that carries
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the Ark before it will be triumphant.
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Yes, so So I always took that to be they're hiding a piece of information while
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they're discussing something else.
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So I don't consider that much of a plot hole. The hole in Raiders is that indeed
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means nothing to the story.
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His decisions have no impact really on the end. None at all.
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The only impact that it has is that the arc ends up being stored away in American Warehouse.
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That is his only only contribution to the entire story because if he simply
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gets in the way of the Nazis and,
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and he basically he points them in the wrong direction while he's digging in
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the right place and he doesn't destroy the Ark when he has the opportunity he
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gets captured as you mentioned and all he does is not look yeah,
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but how did he know to tell Mario not to look but it is revealed in a deleted scene sure but I,
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never because of that first shot of that book saying you know as in people cowering at the light then,
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don't look it's like but there's also in that picture there's an army behind
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the arc and they're they're marching forward like it's up on a hill around the
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light with but the entire there's another army behind the arc,
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as the people are holding it up I don't remember that but the I mean I've only seen it five times.
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Good good good yeah it's indelible indelible but it is sufficient it's like the old list when,
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a holy item begins to emit light close your eyes it's in the evil overlord list
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yeah but it could have easily killed him anyway,
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like whether your eyes were closed or not it's possible but sure why not close
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your eyes yeah yeah it is almost like you could say it's almost a mark of respect that,
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no one shall look on the light all that jazz So, the flaws in it,
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the reason why I thought you wouldn't go for it is that.
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Even if we take the deleted scene as a plot hole, the story itself works,
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without Indy's involvement, without the deleted scene, that the story is so
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phenomenally good that it carries you through.
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And this so that's really why I thought it would be an exception to this because
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there is it is the rare story where,
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the fluking car where it didn't it's just it could be just nonsense but,
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each scene carries forward each it does think that the you know why is why is
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marion you know in fucking mongolia where they find her not really known as like or,
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why does she have the thing not really it's the one piece that is like so it's
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very much you could almost call that contrivance
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but you don't because it's set in almost this Pulp Fiction-y world of,
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you know, of... Of the 30s. Yes.
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1930s. It is, whatever came after, you know, the Pulp Fiction,
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what was it, Flash Gordon, you know, that sort of era of entertainment.
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The traveling by map. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These sort of tropes,
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the fact that, yes, he has a gun in them, but...
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The whip. Yes, he has he has a a thing that gets and it is him a a.
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Shirt that is never fully tied and that,
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the only thing the only thing that's holding it together is the satchel strap,
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and for some reason the whip always comes back,
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it is so always ties onto something flawlessly,
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that he can swing it and unties exactly when he needs to untie so he's there
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just going pulling on and it's going I can't no I have to leave it behind yeah,
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never I know it happened like that I really whipped it on there pretty good yeah,
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never happened it's just a nice well structured well put together movie from
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what 1981 82 yeah and it still lives up to today yeah it holds up so so no I shall dismiss,
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your attack indeed okay your scurrilous attack I can't badmouth Indiana Jones 1, 2 and 3.
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I mean, there only were three. The Stranger they never made,
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no, hang on, yeah, Crusade was three, yeah. The Stranger they never made anymore.
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It's good they left it well. I mean, it's almost like they wrapped it up very
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neatly on the third one. Incredibly neatly. Yes, they didn't need to do any more.
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Well, I know why they didn't make any more movies, because they couldn't have
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made them any better than that trilogy in and of itself.
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Yes, an unplanned trilogy, absolutely.
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A wonderfully buttoned-off thing. right we will move along to because I have
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another one here which is are you going to cause me to an angry outburst again
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we'll go to Lord of the Rings we're what? Lord of the Rings.
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Are you trying to slip in some Rings of Power shit because that's full of foothills,
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I don't know what that is it's something that also never happened,
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it's coming back Lord of the Rings again this blah hole might have been discussed
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to death there are many people you
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know, the fans of these I'm trying to remember, please go on there is a,
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it's not a plot hole however,
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then this whole episode about plot holes is going really well,
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it's been seen as a plot hole, okay, by many who maybe perhaps don't understand,
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okay, well that's a good type of plot hole, as in for the ignorant let's go,
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so the eagles why did they not just fly everybody to Mount Doom and Happy Days.
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They get on the eagles, eagles fly to Mount Doom, Frodo hops off,
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drops the ring in, everyone's back before tea.
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I can understand the...
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I'm going to rewind. I wouldn't call it an ignorant statement,
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because you'd have to know a lot about the lore in order to go,
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yeah, I understand that.
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But also, it was a covert mission.
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There was an army in the way. Not of eagles. What there was in the way, though.
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Was the Nazgul. Was the Nazgul, and in fact, the Eye of Sauron. Yes. So...
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But it is quoted as a thing, like, you know, in the intersphere of people going,
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oh, that's so stupid, the eagles should have just flown them to Mount Doom.
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But yeah, you have the Eye of Sauron, which would have spotted them.
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Yes. And sent the Nazgul, which would have ripped them all apart. Yes.
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So that's a good reason why they didn't do that. Yes. But yet,
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it is still cited as something that, well, maybe they could have got them as
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far as, or maybe they could have just somewhere flew around. You know.
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But I think that, that, suffers from the eagles being used in the travesty that was the Hobbit movies.
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Yeah. That they were, I think, at the end of the first Hobbit movie,
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then they hopped up on the backs of the eagles to take them basically the rest
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of the way, basically from waypoint to waypoint.
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Yeah, exactly. But when you see where they land and then you see how far away,
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Erebor is, it's like, it still looks like it is weeks away when they land.
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The eagles like yeah this is as far as we go pal but again that could have been
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like we're afraid of the dragon going any closer well yes no but i think i think
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that that is a much much bigger plot hole yeah that once you introduce the facility,
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and don't use the rest of it like you you have one of the you have you know
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gamoff going yeah come on come on and then i'm going no why the fuck would they
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bring them so far and that's not even a little bit further because that,
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you know, a smog's not going to come out.
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He doesn't come out. That's what, that's the problem. He has a aura of fear,
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but he doesn't actually visit that upon the villages around him.
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For a bird, perhaps that is enough of the, you know, they go,
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but they have, but you have a little, they have, well, they,
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I'm going to get them, they will, I near with them. So,
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They have essentially a godling with them. That's not going to be an issue. Yes, exactly.
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But I think there's evidence from, it's either, I think it is in the books, in Lord of the Rings.
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It's only the movies where people have watched and go, why can't they use the
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eagles to get all the way?
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But I think it is stated in the books that the eagles wouldn't deign to be so
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close to anything so evil as the one ring and that they just,
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they could, they couldn't stand to be around it,
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and therefore they wouldn't carry Frodo to anywhere.
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They wouldn't go near Frodo or anyone that has had that ring.
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They, they would have just avoided completely because they're,
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they're like creatures of like pure good.
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And they couldn't actually physically be close to the one ring.
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I think it is stated somewhere there. In The Hobbit, who's carrying the one ring?
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In The Hobbit, yeah. Yeah, no, no, yeah. Who's carrying the one ring?
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Who's carrying the one ring in The Hobbit? Bilbo, the guy that they're carrying.
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They're carrying, yeah. So that is another bullshit line that it's...
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Or else the Hobbit movie's ignored from the books.
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The Hobbit movie's did a lot of bad shit. So we can't ignore them as Peter Jackson,
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being forced to create something that he doesn't actually want to do.
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Yeah. So, yeah, so the, but so you could, this is a good talking point in that
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there are those things that are seen as being bad. Yeah.
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But it is, it is clearly not that you are, it's almost like a,
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a, an audience intelligence test.
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Can you figure why aren't they there,
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Do you have to, do I have to spend the next 15 minutes of this car ride away
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from the cinema to explain to you how this shit happens?
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Or can we just understand, understand that it was, that the story is about the
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journey that you're focused on the end.
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And indeed, one could almost use this as a, as a diagnostic tool for the,
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the type of person watching, you know, because there's people who like endings,
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who just, who want the big battle.
00:18:01.254 --> 00:18:04.498
They want the, yeah, they want the, they want the guy to get the girl.
00:18:04.643 --> 00:18:07.098
They want the girl to get the guy. They want all that stuff to happen.
00:18:07.098 --> 00:18:09.038
The dopamine release. Exactly. They want that thing.
00:18:10.458 --> 00:18:13.183
There's people who want the journey. They want the experience.
00:18:14.020 --> 00:18:18.802
And maybe you could make the statement that these days with the,
00:18:20.161 --> 00:18:25.478
TickTucker clips of just getting to the end of things.
00:18:26.018 --> 00:18:31.986
Just get right to the end. But yeah, all the way through. Then you're missing the story.
00:18:32.218 --> 00:18:35.986
You're missing the journey. So yeah, they could have just picked them up and dropped them off.
00:18:36.183 --> 00:18:39.318
They could have used parachutes. A line of dialogue though from Gandalf would
00:18:39.318 --> 00:18:41.944
have said that they couldn't, you know, taken it from the books.
00:18:42.408 --> 00:18:46.098
They could have given Gandalf a line to say that, no, they can't,
00:18:46.418 --> 00:18:48.968
they can't abide being so close to the ring.
00:18:49.718 --> 00:18:52.048
Something like that would have went, ah, everyone would have went,
00:18:52.048 --> 00:18:57.259
okay, yeah, that's, Gandalf said it, it's true. So we're not questioning his wisdom in this.
00:18:57.560 --> 00:18:59.976
Problem is, Gandalf wears well in the rings. Yeah.
00:19:01.347 --> 00:19:07.360
Well, it's the one ring, I think. Sure, but that one ring is still connected to the one ring. Yeah.
00:19:08.375 --> 00:19:12.190
So, and I don't know if Sauron wears one, but I know that Gandalf wears one
00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:14.225
of the rings. Yeah. One of the other ones.
00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:20.570
So, it also means that when they go in and they fight the, because there is
00:19:20.570 --> 00:19:27.339
scenes, and maybe it's in Hobbit again, bad movies, where they are fighting
00:19:27.471 --> 00:19:29.294
the, oh, it can't be in the Hobbit.
00:19:29.988 --> 00:19:34.990
I have a scene in my head where they're, oh no, maybe from Rings of Power when
00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:39.096
the eagles are fighting the Nazgul the Nazgul all have rings,
00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:46.042
that's what they are so the abhorrentness or a anti-aura or whatever,
00:19:47.020 --> 00:19:48.300
I don't buy it as much as.
00:19:50.863 --> 00:19:56.452
It's like you shouldn't need to explain everything. Yes.
00:19:57.147 --> 00:20:02.667
And this comes back to one of my... And I think, sorry, but I think in the movies
00:20:02.667 --> 00:20:06.047
it does explain that the Nazgul are in the sky. They're watching like...
00:20:06.307 --> 00:20:08.947
It doesn't relate them to directly. I don't think it explains,
00:20:08.947 --> 00:20:11.657
but the thing is, that's probably what I'm saying, that it doesn't explain it.
00:20:11.657 --> 00:20:17.517
Yeah, but they're in the sky. But you know when you're watching the second movie, as in they're there.
00:20:17.517 --> 00:20:22.387
When you say maybe it was the third movie, when they're attacking the city,
00:20:22.387 --> 00:20:28.017
that they're a presence. In fact, both second movie and second movie and third
00:20:28.017 --> 00:20:30.807
movie, you see them on their respective wyverns.
00:20:31.187 --> 00:20:39.042
So they are an air force that Gandalf has to ride out and actually push away. So.
00:20:41.076 --> 00:20:44.313
It is, it comes back to, the thing I was going to say was, it comes back to
00:20:44.499 --> 00:20:50.443
my oft-hated trope about when someone says oh I love the world building,
00:20:51.598 --> 00:20:56.107
and I was like no you love what of the world building you've been shown you
00:20:56.107 --> 00:20:59.864
don't get everything you don't get all of the,
00:21:00.647 --> 00:21:06.607
all of the decisions that have been made by that writer or those writers displayed
00:21:06.607 --> 00:21:13.819
for you you just don't get them you get a fragment of them and you shouldn't expect,
00:21:14.585 --> 00:21:17.404
someone to then spend even more time because.
00:21:19.047 --> 00:21:22.617
There's going to be a balance between exposition and info-dumping.
00:21:23.676 --> 00:21:27.548
And saying, you know, you have the eagles appear twice.
00:21:28.199 --> 00:21:32.234
You have them once rescuing Galenalf and once at the end to do the pig-up. Yeah.
00:21:33.644 --> 00:21:38.607
If you are focused on trying to figure out why they weren't previously around,
00:21:39.164 --> 00:21:44.844
in a world where magic is dying out, maybe you're looking at the wrong spot.
00:21:45.744 --> 00:21:50.704
And fair ado is, well, I'm going to enjoy, I'm going to go home and watch it again.
00:21:51.484 --> 00:21:56.804
Between now and going to work tomorrow I have at least now 10 hours of Lord
00:21:56.804 --> 00:22:00.294
of the Rings and 2 and a half hours of Indiana Jones to watch fuck it no I'll
00:22:00.294 --> 00:22:02.084
watch all three pretty much yeah,
00:22:03.275 --> 00:22:09.214
so yes I will happily be in defense of yeah there is it's asking it's a curious
00:22:09.214 --> 00:22:14.818
case of asking for more exposition in and I imagine the same person would ask
00:22:14.934 --> 00:22:17.866
for there to be a more streamlined story,
00:22:18.533 --> 00:22:21.383
like we don't get details of where Shadowfax is from?
00:22:21.865 --> 00:22:26.062
No. None at all. He just shows up. He gets... He whistles. Yeah.
00:22:26.399 --> 00:22:29.052
The next minute, he's like, he must have been quite close.
00:22:29.604 --> 00:22:33.237
Was he following Gandalf? Yeah. Was he around the corner? What the fuck?
00:22:33.725 --> 00:22:36.087
It's like, did Gandalf go to where he just hangs out?
00:22:36.984 --> 00:22:41.294
Why did Gandalf let... If you want to talk about contrivances or false plot
00:22:41.294 --> 00:22:44.391
holes, why did Gandalf let Gollum follow him?
00:22:45.552 --> 00:22:52.074
Why? There was absolutely no reason for him, except for except for the the sense
00:22:52.074 --> 00:22:56.841
of things to come yeah but that's that's Gandalf all over isn't it like he has this sense.
00:22:58.547 --> 00:23:04.170
He can't see the future, but he kind of reads the past and present enough to maybe guess.
00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:10.890
I would say that that is more of a plot hole than anything else because if he
00:23:11.210 --> 00:23:13.245
knows what's to come, he didn't prepare them for his own death.
00:23:14.590 --> 00:23:16.330
His own transformation.
00:23:19.590 --> 00:23:27.210
There is things you can point at. Why didn't he know about Durin digging too deep.
00:23:27.767 --> 00:23:31.888
Why didn't he know about the barok coming up? Because given that they are of the same. Yeah.
00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:40.123
Why didn't he know that? Why did he even think to ask Frodo the most stupid of the questions? Okay.
00:23:40.378 --> 00:23:44.099
Do we go over the mountain or go under the mountain? By the way, go under the mountain.
00:23:44.425 --> 00:23:49.561
There is something so profoundly powerful down there that is going to kill me
00:23:49.764 --> 00:23:52.266
or has the potential of killing me.
00:23:52.457 --> 00:23:55.534
But it's wet out here. It's snowing.
00:23:56.670 --> 00:24:01.330
It's cold but why even ask that question this is the contrivance because you
00:24:01.330 --> 00:24:07.630
are because this is a story about these you know if you you can look at Lord
00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:09.892
of the Fellowship as the Hobbit story,
00:24:10.356 --> 00:24:12.210
as primary because that's where you spend most of your,
00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:17.530
time then when it goes to Two Towers they're all over everyone's all over the
00:24:17.530 --> 00:24:20.838
place so you have everyone's story and even like,
00:24:21.592 --> 00:24:24.870
you don't get like it's not Logolassa story or Gimli story they are essentially
00:24:24.870 --> 00:24:28.410
with the clowns in a Shakespearean sense because they don't really get their
00:24:28.410 --> 00:24:32.090
own story except for things that were in the extended edition.
00:24:32.304 --> 00:24:37.680
So you have literally the path of the return of the king and the path of the
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:39.928
two pairs of hobbits and that's it.
00:24:40.439 --> 00:24:46.935
So there's a lot of you could or even as I'm going through the contrivance of,
00:24:47.382 --> 00:24:52.400
Gandalf arriving exactly when he said he would when at the start it's like he
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.529
never arrives he only arrives where he'll attend to.
00:24:55.340 --> 00:25:02.219
There's all these little lines in this wonderful story, which could be pointed
00:25:02.219 --> 00:25:05.895
to as being bad, but they're not.
00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:12.511
When you were saying about the question of, oh, where shall we go?
00:25:12.947 --> 00:25:20.429
You imagine some outback hiking guide going to the tourists that just showed
00:25:20.429 --> 00:25:24.349
up from Ireland, going, which way do you think we should go through this?
00:25:25.343 --> 00:25:31.159
Spider-infected forest or crocodile-infested waters, which, you know,
00:25:31.159 --> 00:25:34.819
it's up to you which, you know, a guide should be guiding at that point.
00:25:34.819 --> 00:25:42.424
Sure, but it's more that, shall we go through the slightly risky the slightly risky mountains or the,
00:25:44.472 --> 00:25:46.049
the will kill us all.
00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:52.552
They managed to get away from the orcs and the goblins or the goblins,
00:25:52.837 --> 00:25:59.588
but the and the cave troll they have a cave they have a cave troll and the Balrog so it's there is,
00:26:00.331 --> 00:26:08.419
if you want to to nitpick to find you can you can nitpick until your heart comes
00:26:08.419 --> 00:26:13.479
home shall we move on then but there's no plot holes here alright let's move on then,
00:26:14.477 --> 00:26:22.576
um so I mean ones we were looking at well I was looking at again these are kind of like uh,
00:26:23.969 --> 00:26:31.499
I suppose, commonly or largely discussed online kind of things that people say are potholes.
00:26:31.499 --> 00:26:35.017
That may or may not be potholes, but I think... Oh God, what were you going to go on?
00:26:35.774 --> 00:26:39.802
Well, I think there was one there in relation to the Prisoner of Azkaban.
00:26:40.679 --> 00:26:46.210
So in the Prisoner of Azkaban, it introduced... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.
00:26:46.627 --> 00:26:51.331
It introduces this idea that... Or Hermione has this device called a time turner.
00:26:52.662 --> 00:27:00.179
Yep. Except she can use it to go and do extra classes, is how she explains it.
00:27:00.719 --> 00:27:04.759
And so they introduced the idea of time travel.
00:27:04.962 --> 00:27:08.375
They put it into existence. I know, you know, we probably have a couple of time
00:27:08.375 --> 00:27:11.465
travel-y ones like that, or Back to the Future one as well that I'm thinking
00:27:11.465 --> 00:27:13.496
of. Back to the Future is perfect.
00:27:15.411 --> 00:27:21.145
Well yeah yeah yeah we'll get there so time travel is established and,
00:27:22.254 --> 00:27:29.385
they never use the time turner to prevent tragic events that occur like the
00:27:29.385 --> 00:27:34.393
death of remus or sure any of these things and then in a subsequent book they destroy them all,
00:27:35.072 --> 00:27:40.668
except for the one they kept around for the cursed style which they use to go back in time yeah,
00:27:41.845 --> 00:27:43.575
yes the time turners are absolute pieces of shit.
00:27:43.749 --> 00:27:47.823
This is a wonderful example of that, that Rowling can't write for shit.
00:27:48.766 --> 00:27:53.205
They are absolutely, profoundly, 100% pieces of caca.
00:27:53.745 --> 00:27:57.654
It is a bad idea. It is worse than a bad idea. This is a.
00:27:59.693 --> 00:28:03.853
Whatever you add, whatever story, especially if you're writing an ongoing,
00:28:04.865 --> 00:28:10.379
series, whatever you add, first thing first, if you're writing an ongoing,
00:28:11.011 --> 00:28:15.385
saga, an ongoing series of books, you are bound by the things that have gone
00:28:15.385 --> 00:28:20.655
in the past yeah and by saying that i'm not bounding you to them you're bounding
00:28:20.655 --> 00:28:21.986
yourself to them yeah that,
00:28:22.745 --> 00:28:27.135
if you have made a decision about the metaphysics of the world the super science
00:28:27.135 --> 00:28:29.678
of the world that x can't happen,
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:37.793
then it is you have to be very very specific about allowing x to happen in in in the future,
00:28:38.872 --> 00:28:44.184
The time turner was a, ain't it cool moment. Yeah. It was a,
00:28:44.393 --> 00:28:48.282
let's, as I said, let's give Hermione the time to do an extra class.
00:28:49.217 --> 00:28:53.801
Because that's just like her. You can't do them in the evening when everyone
00:28:53.801 --> 00:28:55.831
else is just hanging out.
00:28:56.891 --> 00:29:02.491
If you just look at it in a microcosm, absolutely. But if you then extrapolate
00:29:02.491 --> 00:29:04.693
that out going, okay, she has this small.
00:29:07.711 --> 00:29:12.376
Necklace-like device flip over time turns that she just randomly picked up somewhere
00:29:12.545 --> 00:29:18.263
no she was given it yeah she was going to buy either McGoggle or Dumbledore to do extra classes,
00:29:19.216 --> 00:29:22.281
which means that they have access to it yeah which means that they have access
00:29:22.281 --> 00:29:28.491
to a much much better version of it much much much better so that means that
00:29:28.491 --> 00:29:31.991
time travel exists in the universe yeah but limitations I think that's,
00:29:32.978 --> 00:29:38.291
maybe part of the key that might fix something like that is had limitations
00:29:38.291 --> 00:29:43.331
being placed on the time turner as in you can only every time you use it,
00:29:45.431 --> 00:29:53.121
it costs you a certain amount of time of your life limitations make powers better,
00:29:53.731 --> 00:29:55.864
I'm not quoting one of Sanderson's,
00:29:56.811 --> 00:30:04.167
this existed before Sanderson ever existed limitations in powers are just good it costs to do stuff,
00:30:05.385 --> 00:30:06.791
that or a,
00:30:08.631 --> 00:30:11.120
expression of a better version of a power.
00:30:13.251 --> 00:30:17.991
Is limited by some form. Absolutely. So for example if Hermione aged twice as
00:30:17.991 --> 00:30:23.953
much as the time she went back or something. There's just a cot. Or she loses Sunday.
00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:28.909
She has to, yeah, she is exhausted after using it. Yeah.
00:30:29.889 --> 00:30:33.189
She goes to sleep on a Saturday. She disappears for the entire Sunday and wakes
00:30:33.189 --> 00:30:34.973
up on Monday morning. Yeah.
00:30:35.733 --> 00:30:38.027
She has the same number of hours in a week that everyone else has.
00:30:38.236 --> 00:30:41.469
She's just sorting them out. Yeah. Reallocating them to it. Unfortunately,
00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:43.652
in the Cursed Child, they go all the way back.
00:30:44.429 --> 00:30:47.982
They transfer, what, I think, 20 or 30 years back into the past.
00:30:48.122 --> 00:30:50.359
Yeah. So they're bullshit.
00:30:51.617 --> 00:30:56.579
So you are introducing the concept of time trial which in itself is a such a
00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:02.239
dangerous topic to get involved with it's a massive thing in any story because
00:31:02.239 --> 00:31:04.219
you are because it is the underlying,
00:31:04.844 --> 00:31:11.299
part of any story yeah passage of time from a to b to c i'm actually in one
00:31:11.299 --> 00:31:12.389
of the things i'm writing at the moment,
00:31:13.504 --> 00:31:19.766
the the there's a a moment because i'm dealing with that at the moment so it's in my head that,
00:31:20.491 --> 00:31:23.789
essentially this character is being attacked by three different wizards and
00:31:23.789 --> 00:31:28.369
she divides the timeline into three parts rather than having to deal with all
00:31:28.369 --> 00:31:33.349
three of them at the same part so she's standing in the middle of a fun house,
00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:37.169
and the three of them attack or the three of them get into the fun house at
00:31:37.169 --> 00:31:40.229
the same time but by the time they get they don't realize that they've been
00:31:40.229 --> 00:31:44.269
separated and they all entered the same room roughly around the same time so
00:31:44.269 --> 00:31:47.988
I'm writing the three scenes simultaneously Simultaneously, which,
00:31:48.869 --> 00:31:52.269
I'm quite sure I finished it up last night. Have you gone mad trying to?
00:31:52.849 --> 00:31:59.233
Well, I'm going to go back to smooth it over again because I want the text to flow a bit better.
00:32:00.568 --> 00:32:04.948
But the one that this is an exaggeration
00:32:04.948 --> 00:32:08.807
of her ability with very specific limitations and reasons. Yes.
00:32:09.516 --> 00:32:14.048
That so there is a, so she's not going to do this every time.
00:32:14.485 --> 00:32:18.925
But one of the key statements that I'm making in this is that,
00:32:19.901 --> 00:32:23.250
just as, and this is kind of a reflection of the first fight in the first book,
00:32:23.592 --> 00:32:29.268
and that she engaged in that she suffered from the fact that when that people
00:32:29.268 --> 00:32:31.238
who could elongate dimensions as in,
00:32:32.283 --> 00:32:38.338
a gunshot is fired yeah then all you do is elongate the path a path until that
00:32:38.338 --> 00:32:39.818
bullet just literally falls out of the sky,
00:32:40.842 --> 00:32:44.888
that someone was contracting the distances so that she could be shot at much
00:32:44.888 --> 00:32:49.706
much easier so rather than being you know across a large distance she's actually at point black range,
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.645
in this which is to say forces travel across distances,
00:32:55.309 --> 00:33:00.417
forces also travel across time and all magic ultimately travels across time so,
00:33:00.951 --> 00:33:05.768
you know it's like whether it be casting a spell using your words flashing a
00:33:05.768 --> 00:33:11.218
wand lightning whatever they all travel through the timeline which makes,
00:33:12.138 --> 00:33:20.408
time control so ungodly powerful yeah so it is a so by introducing it especially
00:33:20.408 --> 00:33:23.147
as frivolously as it's introduced Yes.
00:33:24.398 --> 00:33:26.375
Without a thought to it.
00:33:26.566 --> 00:33:30.937
It's not even a case of Hermione is engaging in like special,
00:33:31.618 --> 00:33:36.895
you know, forbidden spells that no one else, you know, it's not like it's just extra classes.
00:33:37.121 --> 00:33:39.389
Yeah. Which you kind of wonder, well.
00:33:42.696 --> 00:33:49.036
It would be even of a benefit if, say, McGonagall had time travelled into the
00:33:49.036 --> 00:33:52.436
future and said, oh, Hermione needs to know this stuff to help.
00:33:52.956 --> 00:33:57.626
And then gives Hermione the time-turner and go, you need to do these classes
00:33:57.626 --> 00:34:00.075
as well. This is the only way you can really do it.
00:34:00.879 --> 00:34:05.136
That at least would serve some purpose other than it's Hermione's character
00:34:05.136 --> 00:34:08.385
because she's such a swat that she loves classes.
00:34:09.996 --> 00:34:14.544
It kind of truncates the purpose it kind of cuts it off midstream there like
00:34:14.921 --> 00:34:21.116
yes is she getting more powerful profoundly more powerful I think it's a solution to.
00:34:23.246 --> 00:34:27.397
The book itself that she takes Harry back in time and they can see themselves
00:34:27.612 --> 00:34:34.375
a few times so they cross their own timeline several times over which in itself is a problem,
00:34:35.401 --> 00:34:41.076
It is a, yeah, it is a profound, see, I wouldn't even call it a plot hole,
00:34:41.076 --> 00:34:42.777
I'd call it just really fucking bad writing.
00:34:43.173 --> 00:34:50.686
That it is a, because it is a plot device hole. Yeah, plot device hole.
00:34:51.506 --> 00:34:57.848
A bit more specific. I suppose a potential fix of that then perhaps could have been,
00:34:58.575 --> 00:35:04.736
had it been established earlier in like before the use of the time or around
00:35:04.736 --> 00:35:06.563
the time, the first use of the time,
00:35:07.326 --> 00:35:10.865
if it was kind of established that you can't change events that have already happened.
00:35:11.643 --> 00:35:14.052
Yeah, make a predestination, sure. Yeah.
00:35:14.906 --> 00:35:18.576
So then it doesn't matter that you go back in time because what has happened
00:35:18.576 --> 00:35:20.496
has always and will always have.
00:35:20.496 --> 00:35:26.086
Yes, it makes it a, not a bootstrap paradox, it makes it a, essentially an information
00:35:26.086 --> 00:35:29.938
game, that you can be in a place where you previously weren't,
00:35:30.449 --> 00:35:31.896
but you're witnessing a thing.
00:35:31.896 --> 00:35:36.186
Like, it's, say that someone doesn't believe you about a certain event.
00:35:37.052 --> 00:35:40.686
I will then take you in time, back to that event, show you what happened,
00:35:40.686 --> 00:35:43.582
so you're seeing it, and go, oh my god, you're right, this person is evil.
00:35:43.703 --> 00:35:48.237
And then, so, they could use it for plot purposes. Yeah.
00:35:48.754 --> 00:35:54.526
But they didn't. it is just yeah well speaking of bootstraps and sticking with time travel plot oh god,
00:35:55.099 --> 00:36:00.246
there's the idea of well in relation to the Terminator movie we'll get the back
00:36:00.246 --> 00:36:04.666
to the future that'll be probably our last time travel thing but time travel
00:36:04.666 --> 00:36:06.726
does cause a lot of kind of it's,
00:36:07.326 --> 00:36:10.086
like I say it's so powerful there's only,
00:36:10.924 --> 00:36:14.026
two time travel movies that make sense,
00:36:15.926 --> 00:36:20.126
that sorry only two time travel movies that that let's say like the spring to
00:36:20.126 --> 00:36:25.716
mind which are which are not predestination which are plastic universe time
00:36:25.716 --> 00:36:29.966
travel that that makes sense and that's Back to the Future and.
00:36:32.336 --> 00:36:32.566
And,
00:36:34.567 --> 00:36:38.035
I've just forgotten it. Oh, Jesus. I'll remember in a second. Okay.
00:36:39.117 --> 00:36:43.411
Dead air. Dead air. Jesus. I can see the cover right in front of me.
00:36:44.011 --> 00:36:48.309
Okay, describe it to me. Describe it to our listeners. It's a box in a...
00:36:49.365 --> 00:36:54.261
Fuck. It's the name... Can I even see the name of the guy who created it?
00:36:54.261 --> 00:36:58.191
I'll remember in a second. Yeah, it's a time travel box that they... They put in a warehouse.
00:37:00.231 --> 00:37:03.291
And we have talked about it before. That's why now it's killing me that I can't
00:37:03.291 --> 00:37:07.706
remember. And Sean Carruthers is the game, the guy who created it. Yeah.
00:37:08.551 --> 00:37:13.470
It's a very mundane title as well. It is. It's like a single word. Not the box. Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:16.171 --> 00:37:20.821
Well, I'll remember a second. But yeah, those two are the only two which are
00:37:20.821 --> 00:37:23.571
predestination, or say, which are not predestination, which work.
00:37:23.751 --> 00:37:26.201
You have things like 12 Monkeys, which works, but that's predestination.
00:37:26.201 --> 00:37:28.534
Yeah. You have things like Terminator, which is predestination.
00:37:29.234 --> 00:37:39.051
Yeah. And I think, but perhaps, was I seeing perhaps a different or edited or,
00:37:39.721 --> 00:37:43.971
additional director's cut thing where it kind of addresses it?
00:37:44.644 --> 00:37:51.780
It has been mentioned, you know, that Skynet send one Terminator back. Sure. Why not an army?
00:37:53.334 --> 00:37:57.684
Why are they sending, like, an infiltration unit instead of just a bunch of
00:37:57.684 --> 00:38:01.530
Terminators to go kill Sarah Connor in the first movie?
00:38:02.461 --> 00:38:11.342
Well, that is less of a plot hole because it would be a plot hole if it demonstrated
00:38:11.481 --> 00:38:14.831
previously a previous ability and then didn't do it. Yeah.
00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:23.382
The ability to travel in time, like, they don't go into much detail about how they got Rhys back. No.
00:38:23.725 --> 00:38:27.924
That... You don't know if it's a separate facility. I think the later movies
00:38:27.924 --> 00:38:29.974
might have explained an assault on Skynet.
00:38:30.774 --> 00:38:32.814
That's irrelevant. Yeah, it doesn't matter.
00:38:34.152 --> 00:38:36.724
It's encapsulated in that one movie. Yeah. All the information,
00:38:36.724 --> 00:38:41.864
because I think half that is fiction from the other movie.
00:38:41.864 --> 00:38:49.684
So essentially it's like Skynet sent a cyborg covered in living flesh because
00:38:49.684 --> 00:38:53.130
you can't bring technology back through time.
00:38:53.814 --> 00:38:57.252
That's a limitation placed on it. Lovely. It's grand. Yeah, happy days.
00:38:58.098 --> 00:39:01.724
Now, more likely it would work the other way that you can't send living stuff
00:39:01.724 --> 00:39:05.914
through time. You can only send inorganic material because organic material
00:39:05.914 --> 00:39:09.063
will probably rip apart or something in the fabric of space-time, whatever.
00:39:09.423 --> 00:39:14.300
But if, so they had enough power, we'll say, to send one.
00:39:14.985 --> 00:39:19.324
Say if that, is it the same facility? We just don't know. Is it the same facility?
00:39:19.324 --> 00:39:22.752
Did the resistance create their own time travel thing?
00:39:23.257 --> 00:39:27.402
Was there only enough power for one go? You know, they only had enough fuel,
00:39:28.434 --> 00:39:33.048
to send one item or in Reese's case, one person.
00:39:34.029 --> 00:39:41.302
You don't know if Skynet just kept sending Terminators for and over and over. Okay. If they could.
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:46.281
So the other time travel movie?
00:39:46.827 --> 00:39:50.050
Primer. Primer. Which is fantastic.
00:39:50.375 --> 00:39:54.477
I think it has a lot of things layered in. Not the greatest of stories,
00:39:54.802 --> 00:39:59.178
but a fantastic, fantastic time travel movie.
00:40:01.987 --> 00:40:03.206
The question about...
00:40:05.327 --> 00:40:09.897
So, the reason why I don't think it's a plot hole and doesn't fall into this
00:40:09.897 --> 00:40:12.301
category is because it's a part of the premise.
00:40:15.807 --> 00:40:20.227
And I shall make the assumption that a premise can't have a plot hole because,
00:40:21.067 --> 00:40:23.286
you haven't expanded the plot yet.
00:40:24.524 --> 00:40:27.843
That you have stated the inception, but that's it.
00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:36.156
The Terminator was basically a zombie movie. It was a singular zombie movie. That was it.
00:40:36.382 --> 00:40:39.877
The Terminator slowly degrades over time.
00:40:40.324 --> 00:40:42.634
Similar to what happens with the Terminator in T2.
00:40:43.267 --> 00:40:44.992
That it slowly degrades over time.
00:40:45.896 --> 00:40:52.715
That a singular person, they get that one person sent back in time to help.
00:40:53.768 --> 00:41:00.582
That's all fine that's it's a B-movie yeah and for that like every every part
00:41:00.582 --> 00:41:03.812
of that is just a B-movie it's an incredibly good
00:41:04.232 --> 00:41:08.592
B-movie it's like just try not to think about it no no no you'll enjoy it more
00:41:08.592 --> 00:41:12.232
no no you can think about it and indeed the whole thing about the predestination
00:41:12.552 --> 00:41:14.851
aspect of it is wonderfully thought out that,
00:41:15.701 --> 00:41:21.892
that the the photograph which Rhys has given to which is given he doesn't know
00:41:21.892 --> 00:41:25.639
that At that point, she's already pregnant with his child. Yeah.
00:41:25.994 --> 00:41:28.392
So there is a further...
00:41:28.852 --> 00:41:30.963
And he's dead when that photo was taken.
00:41:31.648 --> 00:41:35.496
But no, no, he wasn't alive yet. Sure, at the same time. Yes.
00:41:36.532 --> 00:41:40.581
That his life ends in the past and starts... It's like Nishrodinger's Reese.
00:41:40.843 --> 00:41:43.594
No, but actually, he may have already been born by that stage.
00:41:43.890 --> 00:41:47.022
So he is alive. In fact, he could be alive at the other end.
00:41:47.022 --> 00:41:48.522
Yeah, he could be alive at the same time.
00:41:48.777 --> 00:41:54.582
Because it depends on how far into the war that they send it back.
00:41:54.872 --> 00:41:59.383
Because then you could say, you could question all these other aspects of,
00:41:59.575 --> 00:42:05.332
well, when did Skynet develop time travel technology, why did they not send
00:42:05.652 --> 00:42:07.514
them back to just build a bomb?
00:42:08.372 --> 00:42:10.544
Just send a smart one back.
00:42:11.459 --> 00:42:18.492
That then was like, because they needed, maybe it was the fact that why do you want to send one back?
00:42:18.492 --> 00:42:24.442
If you want to go into it, Skynet knew that the one is sent back would be the
00:42:24.442 --> 00:42:26.814
creation point. Yeah. For itself. Mm-hmm.
00:42:27.732 --> 00:42:32.562
It knew its own history. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to question that,
00:42:32.562 --> 00:42:35.916
without sending that Terminator back, it never got created.
00:42:36.212 --> 00:42:41.245
Yeah. I suppose if you had to send a bunch of Terminators back and they were defeated,
00:42:41.921 --> 00:42:45.442
which is reasonable, you know, given American military might and,
00:42:45.442 --> 00:42:48.260
you know, National Guard, you know, if you have a bunch of Terminators,
00:42:48.644 --> 00:42:52.922
it would cause a bigger response and then perhaps Skynet would never have gotten
00:42:52.922 --> 00:42:54.992
created because they all would have been utterly destroyed.
00:42:54.992 --> 00:42:58.733
Yes, that if they sent, if they weren't covert.
00:43:01.012 --> 00:43:04.962
If the American military found this thing, that machine from the future,
00:43:04.962 --> 00:43:08.462
yes, that was on the drawing board at the moment. Scrap all machines.
00:43:08.462 --> 00:43:11.567
Yeah, let's not fucking do this. That'd be fucking terrible.
00:43:11.753 --> 00:43:18.122
So, yeah, so that's a reasonable statement of why to avoid sending somebody back.
00:43:19.092 --> 00:43:25.952
Indeed, talking about other parts of the franchise, the Sarah Connor Chronicles,
00:43:25.952 --> 00:43:31.482
which I know people rail about and talk fondly about because of Lena Headley
00:43:31.482 --> 00:43:33.279
and because of Summer Glau.
00:43:34.467 --> 00:43:38.878
I fucking hate it from the start because it was just it was during the time I've never seen it and,
00:43:40.038 --> 00:43:44.738
in one of them they send a Terminator so far far back in time like
00:43:45.118 --> 00:43:49.378
he then he what a civil warrior or something is it was definitely western he
00:43:49.378 --> 00:43:52.143
then locks himself away basically looks up in the stars and see and basically
00:43:52.479 --> 00:43:56.258
he realizes that he is out of sequence or that the stars don't match I've been
00:43:56.258 --> 00:44:00.358
going to power down for a hundred years and then he walks and puts himself in,
00:44:01.078 --> 00:44:05.215
a walls himself up comes back out looks up I'm going, all right, right, there we are.
00:44:05.476 --> 00:44:08.574
Oh, dear. And heads off. And, you know, so it then becomes a threat.
00:44:09.153 --> 00:44:16.137
So, and you're one from Garbage is also a super advanced Liquid Terminator.
00:44:16.427 --> 00:44:19.678
Spoilers, because it was shit. You're one from Garbage, as in Shirley.
00:44:19.836 --> 00:44:22.778
Shirley, what's her name, yeah? What's her name, Shirley Mick?
00:44:24.270 --> 00:44:27.569
Yeah the singer from the band Garbage,
00:44:28.909 --> 00:44:33.519
she was she was from the future she was great but yeah so Manson Shirley Manson
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:34.937
Shirley Manson that sounds alright,
00:44:35.894 --> 00:44:41.939
comes back to you yeah eventually so yeah so I say that the even again so taking
00:44:41.939 --> 00:44:48.758
it as a what if it is a plot hole yeah I don't think it's a necessarily a bad one,
00:44:49.569 --> 00:44:52.249
or even that it is a a,
00:44:53.269 --> 00:44:55.622
story damaging one because it doesn't affect.
00:44:57.149 --> 00:45:02.698
When when when use time travel as an ignition point or a story yeah,
00:45:03.368 --> 00:45:07.349
you can almost forget about it it's like here's we're assembling our pieces
00:45:07.349 --> 00:45:11.659
yeah to get them together we're using time travel or using super science or
00:45:11.659 --> 00:45:13.474
using magic or we're doing this or,
00:45:14.409 --> 00:45:17.989
once you have made that as part of your part of your your,
00:45:18.992 --> 00:45:24.679
opening and you never use it again like no point in in terminator do they travel
00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:31.012
in time at no point in Terminator there's a it is just they arrive that's it yeah so,
00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:34.676
off we go exactly so you essentially can say that,
00:45:35.285 --> 00:45:40.359
they could have if you can so easily go they could have come from other dimensions
00:45:40.359 --> 00:45:47.117
yeah and I come from space I know I know from the the storytelling in the filmmaking part,
00:45:47.966 --> 00:45:53.569
of things on Terminator is you can understand why not only is the,
00:45:54.129 --> 00:45:58.679
arnold schwarzenegger's terminator you don't show him like it's not shown him
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:02.239
traveling back in time it's not showing that he is a robot,
00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:06.779
because you're not supposed to know that at this point if you went in fresh
00:46:06.779 --> 00:46:09.490
to to the theater 86 i think it was,
00:46:10.013 --> 00:46:14.219
about that yeah and it's arnold schwarzenegger and he's going around he's he's
00:46:14.219 --> 00:46:17.969
all of a sudden he's he's walking around collecting clothes and.
00:46:18.938 --> 00:46:22.270
Kind of boots and motorcycles and I know that was Terminator 2 but,
00:46:23.050 --> 00:46:28.408
yeah you don't know that he's a robot at that stage you haven't he's just Arnie
00:46:28.592 --> 00:46:31.290
yeah he's just Arnie Arnie's a bit stiff yeah and he's,
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:35.630
you know he gets underway with what he's doing so I can understand from a storytelling
00:46:35.630 --> 00:46:40.920
point of view you can't see the robot being sent back by other robots or machines
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.320
or whatever because he's why not,
00:46:44.104 --> 00:46:49.270
because you aren't supposed to know that he is a robot no but It's just a tension thing.
00:46:49.270 --> 00:46:53.730
For, for, but you said robot's sent by robot. I don't see why not you could,
00:46:53.730 --> 00:46:57.351
why you couldn't say it. No, it doesn't, it doesn't say that until Rhys goes,
00:46:57.821 --> 00:46:59.081
this is what happens. Yeah.
00:46:59.791 --> 00:47:05.062
But he doesn't have to be, you know, the Terminator. You see the robots at the start, don't you not?
00:47:05.864 --> 00:47:09.280
No. Coming in and, and, and attacking the resistance. No, that's Terminator
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:10.460
2. That's Terminator 2. Yeah.
00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:18.360
The only time you see the, uh, is the Terminator in action in the future is
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:22.960
when they fight against the the hunter killers,
00:47:23.844 --> 00:47:29.718
And Reece returns home, the dog starts barking, and he has the picture of Sarah
00:47:29.718 --> 00:47:32.585
Connor. Yeah. And it's a T-800.
00:47:33.658 --> 00:47:39.214
Yeah. Or one of the early, they had rubbery skin. Yes. You can see that a glowing eye. Mm-hmm.
00:47:39.528 --> 00:47:43.638
So you can see that something is wrong about them. But that's.
00:47:45.958 --> 00:47:51.705
After he has identified the Terminator. He's described it to Connor. Yeah.
00:47:51.890 --> 00:47:55.788
And this is after they possibly after they sleep together because then he wakes
00:47:55.788 --> 00:48:01.258
up out of a out of the nightmare and Sarah's there to comfort him so there,
00:48:02.218 --> 00:48:05.908
I don't see the reason why they couldn't have said it but they didn't have to
00:48:05.908 --> 00:48:11.444
say it because as I said it's a zombie movie that it's interesting that the whole the unknown,
00:48:12.458 --> 00:48:18.648
the whole sci-fi aspect to it is almost tacked on that it is and yet it is the
00:48:18.648 --> 00:48:20.018
thing that everyone points to oh it's,
00:48:21.086 --> 00:48:23.558
but it's almost like it got tacked on and then,
00:48:24.686 --> 00:48:28.598
it is fusing in through the entire story you can almost see,
00:48:29.518 --> 00:48:35.068
I know that it was creation of out of a dream that Cameron had but you can almost
00:48:35.068 --> 00:48:42.181
see the the it's a zombie story but the zombie is a robot oh yeah,
00:48:43.162 --> 00:48:48.916
because I remember it was a Solaris around the time there was a few there was a few Harvey Keitel,
00:48:50.002 --> 00:48:51.458
merging with a robot I have,
00:48:52.898 --> 00:48:58.868
a vague impression of it so you have these kind of half you have all these other
00:48:58.868 --> 00:49:04.143
examples of monstrous robots somewhat connected to flesh,
00:49:05.894 --> 00:49:08.750
so you have hence the Terminator but the.
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:15.674
So you can see how the horror aspect of it manifests you don't need the time
00:49:15.674 --> 00:49:20.250
travel aspect yeah it's just this relentless force that is constantly pursuing,
00:49:20.831 --> 00:49:24.254
this woman yeah like it could have been simply you know the story itself could
00:49:24.254 --> 00:49:29.534
have been that it was a modern day creation it was a futuristic modern day creation
00:49:29.534 --> 00:49:33.594
yeah and so time travel wasn't necessary for it so you could and that's indeed,
00:49:34.314 --> 00:49:38.075
you could say from a story creation point of view that,
00:49:38.931 --> 00:49:46.114
it's I came going back to if if you want to do jaws then you shouldn't be focused
00:49:46.114 --> 00:49:47.818
on the focus you shouldn't not be focused on the shark,
00:49:48.741 --> 00:49:52.824
yeah oh well speaking of a quick quick one on jaws it was what jaws forward
00:49:52.824 --> 00:49:55.860
or revenge that that didn't exist that yeah,
00:49:56.876 --> 00:50:03.083
But this is where, and it's so utterly preposterous that you just,
00:50:03.643 --> 00:50:05.914
you don't know how this came to be.
00:50:06.315 --> 00:50:12.843
But it was a case of, the shark, the shark, now, the shark wanted revenge on
00:50:12.843 --> 00:50:19.883
Brody's wife and followed her across to the Caribbean from, what was the name of the town?
00:50:20.243 --> 00:50:22.503
Amity? No, I don't remember.
00:50:24.163 --> 00:50:32.063
Yeah, however. So, yes, the shark somehow knows that she went from mainland
00:50:32.063 --> 00:50:37.103
US to the Caribbean and follows her down there and wants revenge for the previous
00:50:37.103 --> 00:50:38.857
shark being killed. Was that the Michael Caine one?
00:50:39.484 --> 00:50:44.233
I can't remember it that well, but I just... Because I remember him saying that
00:50:44.233 --> 00:50:46.735
it was an absolutely terrible movie that he got paid very well for.
00:50:47.344 --> 00:50:51.313
Well, that's probably it then. But, I mean, a simple fix for that,
00:50:51.940 --> 00:50:57.373
because her son is killed by the shark at the start, is just have the human
00:50:57.373 --> 00:51:01.507
wanting revenge and going hunting the shark, not the shark following the human.
00:51:02.019 --> 00:51:08.206
No, but my point is that the heart of Jaws isn't the shark at all. Yeah.
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:12.223
Has nothing to do with the shark. It's about a guy coming to terms with his,
00:51:12.223 --> 00:51:16.173
his, his, his, almost his lot in life. Yeah. That he is terrified of the water
00:51:16.173 --> 00:51:20.704
and that he has to overcome fear in order to, to kind of rise to the challenge.
00:51:21.116 --> 00:51:23.287
That, and that fear is more of the water than the shark.
00:51:24.930 --> 00:51:29.260
If you are, when you have someone say, I want to learn from Jaws,
00:51:29.626 --> 00:51:35.544
and they come out with a script that's all about a fish, then they haven't learned anything from Jaws.
00:51:36.124 --> 00:51:40.004
With Terminator, if you're coming out with saying, I want a time travel movie. Yeah.
00:51:40.816 --> 00:51:45.544
No. It's not a time travel movie. Well, no, but time travel is a nice element
00:51:45.544 --> 00:51:48.442
to it. Yeah. But it's just to get a setup to it.
00:51:49.684 --> 00:51:55.824
But if you're talking about how a... It's a backdrop. it is it is it is part
00:51:55.824 --> 00:51:57.524
of you know you could say it's part of the world building but it's.
00:51:59.644 --> 00:52:04.844
It's it's almost it just explains the origin I guess of the Terminator it explains
00:52:04.844 --> 00:52:07.484
the it explains the the start and the very end,
00:52:08.270 --> 00:52:13.574
yeah if you chopped off both those bits and just had it end with the machine
00:52:13.574 --> 00:52:15.748
crushing the Terminator and Sarah going,
00:52:16.984 --> 00:52:20.494
and then her slowing down and the end and then the credits rolling then that
00:52:20.494 --> 00:52:23.384
would have been fine too it's like the end of a Blade Runner,
00:52:23.727 --> 00:52:27.094
you, as in, you just have them leaving in the, in the elevator and just cut
00:52:27.094 --> 00:52:29.642
it there. Yeah. To some, that's a better movie.
00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:33.965
You don't, you don't see them driving off in the middle of nowhere.
00:52:34.923 --> 00:52:39.915
But the, and the heart of Terminator is a, is the relentlessness of the killer. Yeah.
00:52:40.291 --> 00:52:45.578
The, the, nothing can stop it. Yeah, the, the, the struggle to survive. Yeah. So,
00:52:47.157 --> 00:52:51.558
Well, I was going to touch on Back to the Future, but maybe we'll leave time
00:52:51.558 --> 00:52:54.518
travel because it's just another potential time travel plot.
00:52:54.518 --> 00:52:56.448
You know, just throw it at me so I can bat it away.
00:52:56.848 --> 00:53:02.775
Okay, so it's, because it's a fun comedy, essentially, with time travel. Yeah.
00:53:04.628 --> 00:53:11.746
There's a question of when Marty interferes with his parents' relationship,
00:53:12.518 --> 00:53:14.300
why doesn't he suddenly just disappear?
00:53:14.948 --> 00:53:19.158
And not you know he doesn't disappear he has a chance to kind of get everything
00:53:19.158 --> 00:53:25.646
back on track again and he's watching his older brother yeah his older sister yeah and he starts,
00:53:26.362 --> 00:53:32.614
how how is that a plot hole that's that that's the that's the metaphysics of the story,
00:53:34.019 --> 00:53:39.048
well yeah because when when you think about it if it's a kind of a propagated
00:53:39.428 --> 00:53:42.568
timeline no we don't have to we don't you have to go there at all.
00:53:42.736 --> 00:53:45.203
Just go, it's how the timeline works.
00:53:46.408 --> 00:53:50.619
You can have good, actually, mostly bad time travel movies, but.
00:53:53.708 --> 00:53:58.745
The fact that, see, I would go the opposite way and say, they shouldn't disappear at all. Right.
00:53:59.412 --> 00:54:02.216
Okay. They are now paradoxes outside the timeline.
00:54:03.087 --> 00:54:09.456
Or on another timeline. Well, yes, the Twin Pines timeline as opposed to Lone Pines,
00:54:10.408 --> 00:54:15.615
no timeline but the so why does the photograph it's a ticking clock yeah,
00:54:16.908 --> 00:54:21.628
it's a plot device yeah that in itself is a plot device I wouldn't so the fact
00:54:21.628 --> 00:54:24.808
it doesn't disappear I don't have a problem at all you know about the whole
00:54:24.808 --> 00:54:30.499
Marty Zero idea Marty Zero yeah no no go ahead so Marty so,
00:54:31.010 --> 00:54:32.879
who disappears at the start of that movie,
00:54:33.506 --> 00:54:35.882
actually who does Marty see,
00:54:36.543 --> 00:54:40.839
get into the Glorian at the end of the movie Is that Marty Zero?
00:54:41.245 --> 00:54:44.238
No. Well, no, I'm going to ask you the question. You're going to give me an
00:54:44.238 --> 00:54:46.760
answer, goddammit. Himself? I don't know.
00:54:48.067 --> 00:54:54.267
He, no, he sees the guy who grew up with the author father, the good-looking
00:54:54.267 --> 00:54:56.657
mother, and the better house with the car.
00:54:57.231 --> 00:55:02.485
Oh, true, yeah. Right? So he... Marty 2.0. Marty 0.
00:55:03.042 --> 00:55:08.837
So you have Marty 1. So the entire plot, you could say, is how he stole some
00:55:08.837 --> 00:55:10.936
other Marty's life. Oh, yeah. I like that.
00:55:12.487 --> 00:55:17.544
So where does the DeLorean at the end go? Um... No idea. Um...
00:55:19.123 --> 00:55:24.314
No idea, yeah. Because it doesn't go back in time, because we never follow the timeline.
00:55:24.874 --> 00:55:28.994
Does Doc bring it forward in time? Does he not say he's going forward 50,
00:55:28.994 --> 00:55:32.106
30 years into the future? Nope. No change at all.
00:55:33.161 --> 00:55:35.338
To which, yeah, which DeLorean?
00:55:36.917 --> 00:55:40.197
No, because Marty comes back.
00:55:40.354 --> 00:55:44.974
Yep. He comes, he arrives back to the Lone Pine Mall. Yeah, so he arrives somewhere
00:55:44.974 --> 00:55:49.096
new for the first time. Yeah, because when he arrives in 1955.
00:55:51.214 --> 00:55:57.432
He destroys one of the trees. So what became... Twin pines. ...has become now the Lone Pine Wall.
00:55:58.163 --> 00:56:02.719
So he's in a totally different world timeline. In a...
00:56:03.634 --> 00:56:06.597
A... A... Revitalized timeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:07.108 --> 00:56:12.824
And that DeLorean... What happens? Yeah. It's a spurious go. In a puff of logic.
00:56:14.490 --> 00:56:18.654
Well, there you have it. So that you couldn't... That you might call a plot
00:56:18.654 --> 00:56:20.655
hole. In that, where does Marty Zero go?
00:56:21.319 --> 00:56:24.314
No idea. No idea. But again, it's a fun comedy, though.
00:56:24.334 --> 00:56:28.054
You're not supposed to think about it too hard. No, but it also is a far,
00:56:28.054 --> 00:56:32.627
far better time travel movie than almost every other time travel movie out there. This thing.
00:56:35.698 --> 00:56:40.454
When I watch things like Rick and Marty, or Rick and Morty, which I used to,
00:56:41.114 --> 00:56:46.131
like a lot, and I've kind of fallen out of watching, but when it was at its
00:56:46.415 --> 00:56:49.817
top, at its prime, It was some of the best sci-fi on TV.
00:56:50.647 --> 00:56:54.658
Better than, well, Star Trek, which has just gone down the shitter.
00:56:56.834 --> 00:57:01.824
Dealt with complex ideas. I'll have a Star Trek one as well.
00:57:01.824 --> 00:57:06.575
Awesome. But it deals with complex ideas and dealt with, you know,
00:57:07.133 --> 00:57:11.572
decent, you know, meaty concepts. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:12.414 --> 00:57:19.074
And even when they had fights, the fights between the president and Rick,
00:57:20.214 --> 00:57:24.140
there were so many different phases to them that it was.
00:57:25.394 --> 00:57:30.884
I was like, this is fucking this is fucking great it's just awesome and it is
00:57:30.884 --> 00:57:33.814
you can see you can see the intelligence behind the writing and yeah,
00:57:34.814 --> 00:57:41.415
and you can see that it is a clear difference between what is being written
00:57:41.543 --> 00:57:43.454
and what can be written yeah,
00:57:43.954 --> 00:57:47.824
so when people say that there's no good writers anymore say no there's plenty
00:57:47.824 --> 00:57:50.774
there's plenty it's just they're they're cowed,
00:57:51.294 --> 00:57:53.789
into mediocrity yeah,
00:57:54.473 --> 00:57:56.444
I suppose I was like, well, no,
00:57:56.444 --> 00:57:59.863
I was going to go, not unlike the original Declaration of Independence,
00:58:00.658 --> 00:58:03.624
Thomas Jefferson wrote and was ripped apart and changed by committee,
00:58:03.624 --> 00:58:05.372
and the one he wrote was far superior.
00:58:05.993 --> 00:58:08.874
And he used to hang on to his original draft and show people throughout his
00:58:08.874 --> 00:58:10.392
life. Really? Yeah. I didn't know.
00:58:10.508 --> 00:58:13.364
He's like, this is what I wrote, and apparently it was, like,
00:58:13.364 --> 00:58:15.558
infinitely superior than the one they actually went with.
00:58:16.754 --> 00:58:19.414
Yeah. Writing by committee never. I must look that up. Well,
00:58:19.734 --> 00:58:23.247
yeah, I guess. No, the Star Trek one was The Wrath of Khan.
00:58:23.971 --> 00:58:29.506
Okay. You know, the, the, the one time, uh, I think Khan came from the original
00:58:29.901 --> 00:58:34.748
series, the original series. I think the episode was called Space Seed.
00:58:35.432 --> 00:58:39.490
Sounds right. Uh, so he was a, he was a one and done. Yeah.
00:58:40.047 --> 00:58:44.304
You know, would have gone into obscurity had it not been for Wrath of Khan,
00:58:44.304 --> 00:58:47.400
where he became one of the great, you know, movie villains. Yeah.
00:58:48.353 --> 00:58:54.704
But there is a moment where he meets, I think it was very early on, where he meets Chekhov.
00:58:54.878 --> 00:58:58.494
Right. And he says, I never forget a face, Mr. Chekhov.
00:58:59.005 --> 00:59:04.013
And Chekhov wasn't in that. Chekhov wasn't on the Enterprise from the original.
00:59:04.013 --> 00:59:08.466
Like, they're referencing this character. He's the same character. Yeah.
00:59:08.890 --> 00:59:11.913
He wasn't on the Enterprise at the same time Chekhov was on the Enterprise.
00:59:11.913 --> 00:59:14.962
I heard. I heard. Yeah. Yes. You know.
00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:19.893
Who knows? You know, there's... No, no. I think that is the thing is that is
00:59:19.893 --> 00:59:24.633
a legitimate plot hole that he now you could say that he met him off screen
00:59:24.633 --> 00:59:26.949
but I I honestly can't remember,
00:59:27.605 --> 00:59:32.473
if Walter Connick had actually joined the cast no not until season 2 so then
00:59:32.813 --> 00:59:35.493
yeah so you could say oh no of course he's he's.
00:59:38.453 --> 00:59:46.366
Door is open and we're being invited by a little dog. By a little dog.
00:59:47.903 --> 00:59:51.618
So that's fair enough. I guess we'll just keep an eye on the little dog that
00:59:51.618 --> 00:59:55.128
has just entered the studio. She has it, is she? Yeah.
00:59:57.248 --> 01:00:04.036
You could try and hang a lantern on it and say that that he was on the crew. Yeah.
01:00:04.645 --> 01:00:07.558
One of the lower ranks. that he hadn't got promoted. There was,
01:00:07.558 --> 01:00:10.062
what, 400 people on that ship at one time.
01:00:10.288 --> 01:00:13.108
He wasn't part of the deck crew. And Khan could have gone immediately through
01:00:13.108 --> 01:00:16.648
the entire roster on the ship and go, I'm going to remember everybody.
01:00:17.228 --> 01:00:20.468
Or he just happened to meet him in the hallways and byways.
01:00:21.103 --> 01:00:25.172
But he may not directly have attached that to the Enterprise. So, yeah, absolutely.
01:00:25.788 --> 01:00:31.718
A questionable plot hole, but one where it is, but you can understand,
01:00:31.718 --> 01:00:35.342
even if it was intentionally put in, going, we know that this didn't happen.
01:00:35.615 --> 01:00:39.958
Let's throw it in anyway the amount of people who because it wasn't a major
01:00:39.958 --> 01:00:48.060
deal at that point as in Star Trek was not as wowed it was there was conventions, they were small,
01:00:49.468 --> 01:00:55.378
that those movies weren't a massive money spinner it would take the kind of
01:00:55.378 --> 01:01:01.799
move up into even into TNG those years where it was like absolutely kicker.
01:01:03.866 --> 01:01:11.338
So I can understand and intentionally adding that in as a known plot hole?
01:01:11.338 --> 01:01:14.574
That's another thing that we have yet to get into, the idea of,
01:01:15.735 --> 01:01:20.428
do you intentionally put in plot holes? Or if you can't get around where you
01:01:20.428 --> 01:01:23.370
are? Yeah, well, if plot holes are kind of, you know,
01:01:24.565 --> 01:01:29.810
inconsistencies in either your established lore, your established story,
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:31.371
established power sets.
01:01:31.934 --> 01:01:37.013
You know, if that's what plot holes are, like, I think they're generally considered to be a negative.
01:01:37.484 --> 01:01:41.270
Yes. That you don't want. You don't want a reader or you don't want an audience
01:01:41.270 --> 01:01:45.011
member looking at something and going, that, what? That doesn't make sense to me.
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:50.860
You never set this up. And, you know, it's a huge, you know,
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.180
I mean, it says it all there when it's a plot hole.
01:01:54.660 --> 01:01:59.920
It's like I'm on this track and there's a gap I don't know how I get from this
01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:06.679
side to the far side yes but I would say that almost in defense of,
01:02:08.140 --> 01:02:11.310
other holes yeah that that.
01:02:14.002 --> 01:02:18.141
A story isn't a solid block of cheese it's Swiss cheese sure,
01:02:18.801 --> 01:02:22.960
so you're not gonna be able to show everything to everybody at all times exactly
01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:26.180
you're not gonna be able to fully explain everything as we talked about the
01:02:26.180 --> 01:02:30.637
idea of you're going you are going to sacrifice some exposition yeah,
01:02:31.270 --> 01:02:36.001
for expediency expediency yeah yeah so I would almost say that,
01:02:36.870 --> 01:02:38.020
there's some things that you
01:02:38.020 --> 01:02:41.166
drive some plot holes you drive straight over and go fuck it I don't care,
01:02:42.133 --> 01:02:47.080
and if you are if there is a momentum to the story if you're if you're a reader
01:02:47.080 --> 01:02:51.180
or audience has caught up with it or is caught up with it yeah then,
01:02:52.141 --> 01:02:57.360
they kind of don't care That's where I think I can kind of going back to our
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:02.100
one of our first talking points Indiana Jones it doesn't matter that he has
01:03:02.100 --> 01:03:03.535
no impact on the story. No.
01:03:04.202 --> 01:03:07.586
Because you're in it with him. Exactly. Yeah. You're caught up with Will.
01:03:08.780 --> 01:03:11.718
You're traveling along with this wonderfully epic story.
01:03:12.857 --> 01:03:18.490
Same with you know same with Last Crusade that he's there to rescue his father,
01:03:19.198 --> 01:03:20.417
and also do some figuring out as well.
01:03:20.551 --> 01:03:22.878
Yeah. And he has to figure out to find the father.
01:03:24.171 --> 01:03:29.146
There is a, the purpose is its own reward. Yeah.
01:03:29.749 --> 01:03:37.227
So while I'm trying to actually think of a plot hole that I went, yeah, I'm okay with it.
01:03:37.875 --> 01:03:46.054
I can't think of any, so I'm setting up accepting something that I may not, in fact, agree with.
01:03:46.310 --> 01:03:53.320
Because of course there are like certain plot holes like in in literature where,
01:03:53.972 --> 01:03:58.367
a subplot could be abandoned without ever being resolved yes,
01:03:59.107 --> 01:04:03.807
and if that is the case like you know clearly you you want to rethink your subplot
01:04:03.807 --> 01:04:07.737
you want to either tie it off in a satisfactory manner or delete it altogether
01:04:08.068 --> 01:04:13.433
yes or change things that you don't have hanging subplots that like I think when,
01:04:14.734 --> 01:04:20.443
for Game of Thrones for example when I think it was the house of the when.
01:04:21.975 --> 01:04:29.347
Daenerys is talking to the wizards, you know, the, the, is it the house of the undying?
01:04:30.035 --> 01:04:35.695
Yes. Yeah. And then there's some lady with, uh. Lacry mask, which,
01:04:35.695 --> 01:04:39.386
uh, I'm going to remember her name. Quaithe.
01:04:39.984 --> 01:04:41.662
Wait. And what happens?
01:04:42.318 --> 01:04:45.575
Nothing. But then she, she, she, she could be Sierra Seastar.
01:04:45.575 --> 01:04:51.275
She could be, as in, she could be, would share Seastar is the sister,
01:04:51.795 --> 01:04:57.068
stepsister to both Bloodraven and the, I think it was Blittersteel.
01:04:57.793 --> 01:05:00.985
But that might be sorted out in the Winds of Winter, maybe. I don't know.
01:05:00.985 --> 01:05:03.835
No, no, no. Oh, no. She's going to be in the Winds of Winter,
01:05:03.835 --> 01:05:05.195
or she would return. Absolutely.
01:05:05.775 --> 01:05:07.418
She's appeared many, many times.
01:05:08.855 --> 01:05:13.916
In the dreams that Queda has sent her, she said things like the glass candles are burning.
01:05:14.375 --> 01:05:21.768
Uh there's gino who you are there there the the the words of quake are so important
01:05:21.937 --> 01:05:26.025
yeah i were completely ignored by by dal and dave yeah it's like she was written
01:05:26.025 --> 01:05:28.721
into the show and then just abandoned,
01:05:29.442 --> 01:05:34.535
yes yeah pretty much and and and that maybe they didn't know which thoughts
01:05:34.535 --> 01:05:40.018
they were going to follow at that stage maybe well i think that that it is a case that they,
01:05:40.674 --> 01:05:45.133
they well as they have proved to themselves that they're not very good at what they do.
01:05:46.215 --> 01:05:51.003
They have had a few examples of being good here and okay there.
01:05:51.310 --> 01:05:57.735
I was looking forward to Lovecraft Country and it turned out to be really, really fucking awful.
01:05:59.251 --> 01:06:00.063
It is a,
01:06:01.284 --> 01:06:06.235
Game of Thrones is a good example of lots and lots of buttholes because they
01:06:06.235 --> 01:06:10.403
just ditched so much good stuff. And stuff that.
01:06:12.485 --> 01:06:17.652
If they had taken the extra few seasons, it could have been absolutely fantastic. Yeah.
01:06:18.151 --> 01:06:23.605
And that is a problem, though, when you're trying to make an adaptation of a
01:06:23.605 --> 01:06:26.057
book or a series of books.
01:06:26.271 --> 01:06:32.925
You know, the game, the Song of Ice and Fire are kind of so widespread and there's
01:06:32.925 --> 01:06:38.351
so much material within each of the books and then as the books are collectively,
01:06:38.972 --> 01:06:43.265
to make a TV show you're going to have to start ruthlessly kind of hacking things
01:06:43.605 --> 01:06:47.665
off in order to give us some sort of through line that an audience member watching
01:06:47.665 --> 01:06:50.125
for an hour every week might be able to follow.
01:06:50.165 --> 01:06:59.417
I would tend to disagree because the first three seasons they they,
01:07:00.246 --> 01:07:05.028
They started to spin their plates. They built, I think it was referred to as
01:07:05.028 --> 01:07:11.178
the American football method, where they, where, you know, imagine you're drawing
01:07:11.178 --> 01:07:13.433
American football from left to right.
01:07:14.589 --> 01:07:18.678
It gets quickly expanded out, and then you hit a midpoint, and then at the midpoint,
01:07:18.678 --> 01:07:19.738
you should collapse back down.
01:07:20.005 --> 01:07:23.563
So it expands, and rather than a singular line, it expands out,
01:07:24.248 --> 01:07:25.188
and then comes back down again.
01:07:25.775 --> 01:07:30.728
The problem that they encountered was and you could say that Martin's encounters
01:07:30.728 --> 01:07:36.278
as well that they got to the midpoint and they couldn't pare it down yeah it
01:07:36.278 --> 01:07:39.300
just kept got out of control then yeah so.
01:07:40.568 --> 01:07:44.568
And because they were adapting something that they arguably I think,
01:07:45.648 --> 01:07:50.266
that the show suffered from Martin Martin's belief that he could have the two,
01:07:50.834 --> 01:07:58.428
books of Winds of Winter and Dreams of Spring the last two books done by the
01:07:58.428 --> 01:08:00.450
end of the seven years. Oh, yeah.
01:08:01.141 --> 01:08:06.438
Because it was what, Dance came out either the year before or the year after
01:08:06.438 --> 01:08:08.193
the Game of Thrones started.
01:08:08.750 --> 01:08:13.748
So they had this vast amount of material that if Dan and Dave had went,
01:08:13.748 --> 01:08:17.655
right, okay, let's take this vast amount of material and turn it into ten seasons.
01:08:18.172 --> 01:08:22.638
They had the entire thing laid out. Indeed, they had, they had in this city,
01:08:22.638 --> 01:08:26.885
in Dublin, they had a meeting with George R. R. Martin who took them through
01:08:27.083 --> 01:08:30.716
what was going to happen in the last two books. So they could have went, okay,
01:08:33.531 --> 01:08:42.039
Let us find the midpoint, let's find even 10 small arcs across that.
01:08:42.712 --> 01:08:49.288
Ask for between 10 and 12 episodes and then build it across time.
01:08:49.784 --> 01:08:53.585
They could have done that. Instead of a see how it goes at the end, yeah. Yeah.
01:08:57.054 --> 01:09:00.798
The mic drop moments they had of Daenerys surviving the fire.
01:09:00.798 --> 01:09:04.275
Sure. And that's end of book one. Yeah.
01:09:04.937 --> 01:09:10.858
But maybe put it halfway through book two, maybe put it halfway through season two. Yeah.
01:09:12.104 --> 01:09:15.865
Allow the threats to grow, allow the people to expand.
01:09:17.138 --> 01:09:21.378
I think they suffer from the fact that season one was so focused on the murder
01:09:21.378 --> 01:09:24.798
mystery of John Aaron, which was, you know, Game of Thrones.
01:09:26.116 --> 01:09:30.458
If they had allowed the other things to, because they know what things are going to happen.
01:09:31.046 --> 01:09:33.218
They know all those stuff is going to come in from this, this,
01:09:33.218 --> 01:09:39.988
this place. So have them introduced either through other means or like have
01:09:39.988 --> 01:09:41.808
Oberon, Oberon Martell.
01:09:41.808 --> 01:09:45.598
Oberon Martell, I thought is one of the, one of the best characters in that
01:09:45.598 --> 01:09:51.278
series and was completely misused by, arguably by Martin as well,
01:09:51.598 --> 01:09:53.368
that he goes everywhere.
01:09:53.571 --> 01:10:02.158
He, the, the, the, his daughters are, are that he had with women all around the world. Yeah.
01:10:03.838 --> 01:10:04.886
All you have to do is track,
01:10:06.147 --> 01:10:11.099
This is a Elysian princess. This is a girl he had with a scepter.
01:10:11.290 --> 01:10:14.047
This is when he was off fighting with the Insullied.
01:10:14.245 --> 01:10:16.627
This is when he went all the way to... All the sand snakes.
01:10:17.167 --> 01:10:21.188
...to Shia Under the Shadow. He has gone all over the world.
01:10:21.513 --> 01:10:27.673
And even if you took a fragment of time to say, where's Oberyn now? Oh, Oberyn.
01:10:27.777 --> 01:10:31.087
And then you do a little info dump about a character you're going to see in
01:10:31.487 --> 01:10:32.676
two seasons' time. Yeah.
01:10:32.961 --> 01:10:36.507
Where's he? Oh, he's over in this. I heard about this girl with dragons that's
01:10:36.507 --> 01:10:40.897
never going to happen and so you can you can see how conversations have laid
01:10:40.897 --> 01:10:43.988
the groundwork exactly that you can and you can,
01:10:44.627 --> 01:10:50.456
give the wonder and awe of the loss of Valyria of the you could talk about how,
01:10:50.908 --> 01:10:55.087
oh this war happened oh I heard the second sons were involved second sons don't
01:10:55.087 --> 01:10:59.347
get involved in anything that doesn't involve doesn't involve the the the,
01:11:00.147 --> 01:11:05.427
what's not the not the Targaryens the Peter Steele's forces.
01:11:06.467 --> 01:11:12.547
But you you establish the lore of a thing through other fights through other,
01:11:13.551 --> 01:11:18.767
so could they have done a 10 season of that yes but they would have been sitting
01:11:18.767 --> 01:11:24.149
right now at the end of 10 seasons going where the fuck's the next two bucks George so,
01:11:24.987 --> 01:11:29.427
they were ultimately screwed by it but they could still have built a far far
01:11:29.427 --> 01:11:33.917
better show with a far far better ending because then they go okay Which would
01:11:33.917 --> 01:11:37.309
have been immortalized for all time as...
01:11:38.149 --> 01:11:41.318
One of the greatest TV shows that has ever existed.
01:11:41.551 --> 01:11:44.136
Yeah. Had they just held a line
01:11:44.264 --> 01:11:48.037
a little bit longer or just decided to do things a little bit different.
01:11:48.298 --> 01:11:52.089
Because, you know, I know we're talking about plot holes and we're probably
01:11:52.089 --> 01:11:57.110
going to wrap up shortly, but plot holes come in many kind of varieties.
01:11:57.464 --> 01:12:00.609
We were talking about, you know, abandoned subplots, you know,
01:12:00.609 --> 01:12:04.586
just inconsistency with the story, inconsistency with powers,
01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:07.829
inconsistency with characters is another one.
01:12:07.829 --> 01:12:12.583
And as you were speaking about Game of Thrones there, or the TV show Game of Thrones,
01:12:13.453 --> 01:12:17.941
One of the great character inconsistencies, I think, is Jaime Lannister's character.
01:12:19.276 --> 01:12:24.784
He starts off as this arrogant best swordsman in the world, or in Westeros.
01:12:25.098 --> 01:12:28.926
He likes a little bit of incest and pushing kids out windows.
01:12:28.926 --> 01:12:32.191
He's kind of not the greatest person ever.
01:12:32.498 --> 01:12:36.154
You know, he has a lot of flaws, a lot of arrogance, a lot of,
01:12:36.281 --> 01:12:39.835
you know, he's not liked. He's not a likable character.
01:12:40.550 --> 01:12:45.566
However, he then starts kind of going through everything he suffers through
01:12:45.566 --> 01:12:50.421
after losing the battle and then being captured, you know, losing his hand.
01:12:51.766 --> 01:12:56.786
He starts growing. His arc starts kind of developing in a particular way.
01:12:56.786 --> 01:13:02.826
He actually does, you know, it turns out when he's talking to Brienne that he
01:13:02.826 --> 01:13:07.806
did kill the Mad King for honorable reasons because the Mad King was going to kill everybody.
01:13:08.346 --> 01:13:12.416
You know and this this bad reputation he had was probably less deserved but
01:13:12.416 --> 01:13:16.926
it was probably the cause of all his spikiness against everybody because everybody
01:13:16.926 --> 01:13:18.125
hated him he hated him back,
01:13:18.698 --> 01:13:22.976
but that started changing through everything he was suffering and then you know
01:13:22.976 --> 01:13:25.531
he's he's spending time with brianne he's kind of,
01:13:26.202 --> 01:13:29.656
you know he sacrificed or not sacrifices but he puts himself in danger to save
01:13:29.656 --> 01:13:36.046
her from the bear and all all of that and in traveling with her kind of learns to be a better man,
01:13:36.806 --> 01:13:39.151
by her example of being a better person.
01:13:39.639 --> 01:13:44.266
You know, so you have all that and he's, he's, he then goes to fight for.
01:13:45.726 --> 01:13:50.256
He goes up north to fight against the White Walkers because he feels like that's
01:13:50.256 --> 01:13:52.557
the right thing to do and this is Jaime Lannister.
01:13:53.138 --> 01:13:56.510
You know, Jaime Lannister from the first episode isn't this guy.
01:13:56.661 --> 01:13:58.886
Yes sir. It is and it isn't. No, no, no.
01:13:59.606 --> 01:14:05.930
He's gone through. I can understand the, the, the drivers that you're going to, get to. Yeah.
01:14:06.081 --> 01:14:10.545
But no, that's all the way up to that point, he is the same character. Sure.
01:14:11.892 --> 01:14:19.724
But his, he seems to be on one particular trajectory and then he just goes to Cersei.
01:14:21.029 --> 01:14:25.079
It's like he, all that kind of development is forgotten and he just,
01:14:25.989 --> 01:14:30.509
his actions don't affect the, you know, nothing he does in that episode affects
01:14:30.509 --> 01:14:34.046
anything other than he's together with Cersei when they die.
01:14:34.245 --> 01:14:36.061
Yeah. And it's like, okay.
01:14:36.311 --> 01:14:39.393
It just feels like an inconsistency of his character. It's worse than that.
01:14:39.632 --> 01:14:44.389
Because at one point he says I don't care about people yeah which why the fuck
01:14:44.389 --> 01:14:49.733
did he kill the kill the mad king forked to save people he didn't know yeah
01:14:50.029 --> 01:14:52.955
that's exactly what he was he was the,
01:14:53.848 --> 01:15:03.389
it is a a an example of a wonderful piece of narrative told in a unexpected
01:15:03.389 --> 01:15:08.816
way um and the the showrunners utterly destroyed him yeah,
01:15:09.789 --> 01:15:12.002
utterly he was done so badly yeah,
01:15:13.109 --> 01:15:16.829
he was done bad that is a jumping off point which I want to talk about in our
01:15:16.829 --> 01:15:24.907
next episode so this is where we should we will hopefully have either plugged or filled in or got some,
01:15:25.789 --> 01:15:30.769
very hot thermican to cover over all those plot holes in the road and,
01:15:31.908 --> 01:15:36.029
I guess we shall just wrap it up there and Alan,
01:15:38.089 --> 01:15:39.729
Keep watching the skies!