Keep On Keeping On: Courageous Leadership for the Long Haul | Gary Damore

WEBVTT
00:00:00.268 --> 00:00:02.458
Well, welcome to another episode of Faith Driven Leadership.
00:00:02.458 --> 00:00:06.008
I'm really excited to have another guest with me today, Gary Damore.
00:00:06.027 --> 00:00:07.258
It's great to have you with us.
00:00:07.258 --> 00:00:07.328
Thank you.
00:00:07.328 --> 00:00:11.327
And Gary, I've known for several years, is a good friend of mine.
00:00:11.997 --> 00:00:16.987
he has done a lot of consulting, leadership development, board training.
00:00:16.987 --> 00:00:20.007
you've also been in higher education quite a bit.
00:00:20.428 --> 00:00:26.527
You, have also been on many boards and have led boards through leadership development and things like that.
00:00:26.527 --> 00:00:29.158
So I'm so glad you're with us today to talk about these things.
00:00:29.378 --> 00:00:30.198
Thank you for having me.
00:00:30.198 --> 00:00:30.628
Yeah.
00:00:30.777 --> 00:00:37.268
And I guess the first question I ask everybody is just tell us a little bit about yourself and what, what led you to where you are today.
00:00:37.268 --> 00:00:38.718
You've been on a journey through your life.
00:00:38.718 --> 00:00:41.218
It's not over yet, so tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:00:41.637 --> 00:00:49.497
Well, I grew up here in the Valley in Phoenix, Arizona, and, went to high school here, went to college at Northern Arizona University.
00:00:50.177 --> 00:01:05.248
I became a teacher, and I was tapped for a leadership development course that the school district that I, I worked for, a pretty s- large school district in the Valley, and they had an, in-district management training program.
00:01:05.787 --> 00:01:12.108
And so I got tapped for that, and kind of the rest is history for that c- sort of launched my leadership career.
00:01:12.927 --> 00:01:21.957
I, I was the principal of, a large s- suburban high school here, and then got recruited to go into, Christian education.
00:01:22.237 --> 00:01:32.168
So I went to a Christian school and then, as you said, into higher education as well, working at the university level and, and also the s- at a seminary here in town.
00:01:32.748 --> 00:01:34.878
So yeah, so those, It was a...
00:01:34.927 --> 00:01:38.034
It's been a An unexpected journey.
00:01:38.034 --> 00:01:41.153
You know, I've often said that I, I am bilingual.
00:01:41.153 --> 00:01:41.983
I studied Spanish.
00:01:41.983 --> 00:01:46.394
I was a Spanish major- Mm in college, and I thought that we might go on the mission field somewhere.
00:01:46.394 --> 00:01:47.974
That was always in the back of my mind.
00:01:48.534 --> 00:01:50.914
I've never left the neighborhood, basically.
00:01:50.914 --> 00:02:01.983
I've been in this North Phoenix area for my entire career, but I've had great opportunities to serve internationally and in various capacities just right here in the neighborhood, so.
00:02:02.043 --> 00:02:02.293
Yeah.
00:02:02.573 --> 00:02:03.274
You never know.
00:02:03.513 --> 00:02:04.203
You never know.
00:02:04.313 --> 00:02:04.743
Exciting.
00:02:04.804 --> 00:02:06.694
I was g- about to ask you, have you ever left the state?
00:02:06.713 --> 00:02:07.134
You have.
00:02:07.134 --> 00:02:07.144
Yeah.
00:02:07.144 --> 00:02:08.014
You left the country.
00:02:08.563 --> 00:02:18.653
so you mentioned a couple things, one that, you know, you started, put into a leadership program, and that got you going more into leadership development and mentoring and things like that.
00:02:18.653 --> 00:02:24.623
Looking back, what experiences, experience or experiences most shaped your leadership development?
00:02:25.223 --> 00:02:31.204
You know, I always go back even as a young person, the roles that I played in school.
00:02:31.734 --> 00:02:41.484
my wife has teased me recently saying, as you get older, you start maybe having a few more doubts about your ability to continue to serve.
00:02:41.484 --> 00:02:47.633
And, and my wife looked at me and she said,"Gary, you've been doing this since you were in the fourth grade, so just do- Mm what you always do."
00:02:47.644 --> 00:02:47.984
Yeah.
00:02:48.024 --> 00:02:49.424
So I've always I was...
00:02:49.433 --> 00:02:50.933
I ran for class office.
00:02:51.174 --> 00:02:56.574
I was in student government, and the student government training actually was really powerful.
00:02:56.584 --> 00:02:56.653
Mm.
00:02:56.693 --> 00:02:57.804
I think it's one of the...
00:02:58.163 --> 00:03:11.174
You know, whether you're in athletics or student government or some sort of, extra- or what we really actually call co-curricular activities- Mm those are the kinds of things where your, your leadership can be developed and shaped.
00:03:11.614 --> 00:03:20.804
And so I think as early on as, in school, that was the place that I felt like I began to develop some of those leadership skills.
00:03:20.804 --> 00:03:21.343
Yeah.
00:03:22.406 --> 00:03:26.556
Is that, as you know, people are listening at different levels of leadership.
00:03:26.985 --> 00:03:38.026
I hear different leaders talk about, there's not much opportunity to, to, for people to speak into my life or to grow me anymore,'cause times have changed in different ways.
00:03:38.325 --> 00:03:45.876
but I'm always reminded, it's that initiative of finding things to do, and it sounds like you found things to do, and they all paid off.
00:03:46.246 --> 00:03:48.286
'Cause we don't know where the final destination is.
00:03:48.825 --> 00:03:55.955
Right what would you say to somebody today that's maybe entering new into leadership or, and is not getting training in their job?
00:03:57.205 --> 00:03:58.455
there is hope out there.
00:03:59.195 --> 00:04:00.816
but you need to take initiative.
00:04:00.855 --> 00:04:02.656
Any other thoughts on that, it helped
00:04:02.885 --> 00:04:02.975
you?
00:04:02.985 --> 00:04:06.105
Well, it's just the being intentional about engaging.
00:04:06.195 --> 00:04:06.436
Mm.
00:04:06.795 --> 00:04:11.056
You, if you sit back and wait, you're probably not gonna be tapped.
00:04:11.536 --> 00:04:20.065
But if you engage in things that you're interested in and, I, you know, I'm a- always drawn to ministry- Mm a church ministry, that kind of thing.
00:04:20.065 --> 00:04:23.656
I can think about the kinds of things that we're doing at, at our church right now.
00:04:24.286 --> 00:04:30.016
There are new programs developing, and we, Karen and I are signed up to, for this fall.
00:04:30.605 --> 00:04:41.636
We have filled our calendar, actually maybe a little bit too much, but filled our calendar with, the study of Alpha- Yeah which is an outreach program to lead others to Christ.
00:04:42.105 --> 00:04:48.165
And so, y- there are still, at every stage of life- Yeah every age of life, there are opportunities.
00:04:48.555 --> 00:04:51.225
You need to choose to, to be involved.
00:04:51.235 --> 00:04:51.446
Yeah.
00:04:51.636 --> 00:05:02.365
And through that process, people will recognize what you are doing, what you're capable of, and what your capacity or maybe potential is- Right and then invest in you that way.
00:05:02.375 --> 00:05:02.396
Yeah.
00:05:02.636 --> 00:05:03.406
No, I appreciate that.
00:05:03.406 --> 00:05:06.386
I always tell people many times we just have to show up.
00:05:06.446 --> 00:05:06.745
Right.
00:05:06.755 --> 00:05:08.735
And then the doors open or close.
00:05:08.735 --> 00:05:08.766
Right.
00:05:08.776 --> 00:05:09.805
Sometimes we want them to close.
00:05:09.826 --> 00:05:10.065
Right.
00:05:10.065 --> 00:05:10.656
That's a good thing.
00:05:11.036 --> 00:05:11.855
But they show up.
00:05:11.855 --> 00:05:12.005
Right.
00:05:12.026 --> 00:05:14.536
We just need to show up and then, try.
00:05:15.245 --> 00:05:20.425
I think the mindset a lot of leaders today have is,"I have to be perfect in everything," and that's a misnomer.
00:05:20.435 --> 00:05:22.295
Social media and things talk into that.
00:05:22.805 --> 00:05:27.536
But we just need to show up, give it our best effort many times, and then people will help us to the next step.
00:05:27.536 --> 00:05:28.156
Absolutely.
00:05:28.295 --> 00:05:28.315
Yeah.
00:05:29.286 --> 00:05:36.795
well, was there a person that invested in you early that changed your trajectory or affected you a lot in leadership?
00:05:37.036 --> 00:05:40.685
You know, I- I've reflected on that many times.
00:05:40.706 --> 00:05:58.033
I think it wasn't one person- Mm but more- If, if I look back on going back to those high school years as well as college years, there was always one or two people who weren't investing fully in me, but who contributed to my growth and development.
00:05:58.033 --> 00:06:01.473
Our student council advisor, for example, was one person.
00:06:01.744 --> 00:06:03.444
In college, it would've been the, the...
00:06:03.514 --> 00:06:05.894
My role model was my advisor.
00:06:05.894 --> 00:06:11.324
He, he was an exceptional professor and, and very personable.
00:06:11.963 --> 00:06:21.994
He had many students to care for, but each one of us felt like we were the only one that, he was, mentoring.
00:06:22.593 --> 00:06:25.834
So I can't say that there was just one person.
00:06:25.834 --> 00:06:35.913
I think it was a lot of, folks along the way- Yeah depending on the engagement level- Mm-hmm that I, I, I found myself in- Yeah through either school or work.
00:06:35.983 --> 00:06:36.283
Yeah.
00:06:36.963 --> 00:06:51.824
Any th- any advice, again, I'm gonna ask this several times for the podcast, you would give leaders, th- we were gonna talk later about passing on the torch, but is there any advice or thoughts you would give leaders about how to invest in others?
00:06:51.843 --> 00:06:53.053
Because many...
00:06:53.213 --> 00:07:00.694
Today, when I coach a lot of leaders, there's a disconnect, it seems, at times from, who do I actually help?
00:07:01.194 --> 00:07:02.653
How do I find those people?
00:07:02.793 --> 00:07:06.733
are they gonna think that I know it all, and I'm just trying to fix them?
00:07:07.173 --> 00:07:08.824
But that, that's not really true.
00:07:09.024 --> 00:07:10.973
but that's kind of the mentality today.
00:07:10.973 --> 00:07:11.663
What would you say?
00:07:11.663 --> 00:07:12.353
Any thoughts?
00:07:12.754 --> 00:07:14.884
'Cause I know you're investing in people today as well.
00:07:15.353 --> 00:07:18.033
is it, is it again, just showing up and seeing who's interested?
00:07:18.033 --> 00:07:18.913
Any thoughts on that?
00:07:19.394 --> 00:07:20.343
You know, I, I...
00:07:20.564 --> 00:07:33.502
There's such a balance between- Trying to find the m- more of a formal relationship- Mm versus one that's spontaneous and that's, it just happens.
00:07:33.502 --> 00:07:35.062
You just click with somebody.
00:07:35.812 --> 00:07:37.432
and I have found that I've had...
00:07:37.812 --> 00:07:53.951
There's a, a young pastor at our church who called me up one day and said,"Hey, could we meet for coffee?" And I said,"Sure," not knowing that in the back of his mind, what he was asking for is could we meet on a semi-regular basis, you know- Mm somewhat regular basis.
00:07:54.422 --> 00:08:03.132
And, and we've been meeting now for the last couple of years, and, I think the first meeting was probably him testing out to see if this is gonna...
00:08:03.182 --> 00:08:03.552
This...
00:08:03.961 --> 00:08:08.732
If there, if there's some sort of, connection there.
00:08:09.372 --> 00:08:12.432
and then from then on, we've, we've met on a regular basis.
00:08:12.432 --> 00:08:12.442
Mm.
00:08:12.451 --> 00:08:19.242
So that's an example of more of a spontaneous and or- organic, they might call it, relationship.
00:08:20.201 --> 00:08:24.531
There are, are other formal programs that are really beneficial.
00:08:24.552 --> 00:08:24.562
Mm.
00:08:24.581 --> 00:08:33.322
I, m- my example that I, spoke about earlier was being tapped for a formal leadership training program in our school district.
00:08:34.072 --> 00:08:39.721
so I was, very privileged to be a part of that, that program.
00:08:40.192 --> 00:08:51.461
And so it's a balance of both, I think, both a formal, looking for formal opportunities, reaching out and asking, but also you just seem to connect with somebody.
00:08:51.461 --> 00:08:56.331
You like their leadership style, you relate to it, and you wanna connect with that person.
00:08:56.341 --> 00:08:56.701
That's good.
00:08:56.751 --> 00:08:57.831
So it's a balance- Yeah of both.
00:08:57.912 --> 00:08:58.251
Okay.
00:08:58.392 --> 00:08:58.692
Nice.
00:08:58.692 --> 00:08:59.211
I like that.
00:09:00.951 --> 00:09:14.309
you know, our, the podcast name is Faith Driven Leadership, and our goal here through coaching and mentoring, but also consulting and other things, is to how do believers live out their faith in everything?
00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:23.299
'cause it's easy for us to say as believers,"Well, I'll live it out on S- the weekends or on Sundays specifically, but in my job..." It's some...
00:09:23.330 --> 00:09:26.220
It is hard many times for believers to live out their faith in different ways.
00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:27.740
I can relate to that and understand that.
00:09:28.389 --> 00:09:29.889
But we also don't wanna just turn it off.
00:09:30.169 --> 00:09:33.620
and so we want to try to bridge that gap and try to answer some of those questions.
00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:35.409
That's what we're doing today on the podcast.
00:09:35.929 --> 00:09:43.710
So in, in the line with that, is there a point where your faith really began to influence the way you led?
00:09:43.730 --> 00:09:47.860
Did it, that it affected you, or was it just a progression and it's always been there?
00:09:48.419 --> 00:09:52.629
I, I feel like it's always been there, and, it's very doable.
00:09:52.700 --> 00:10:05.259
I, I, y- you might think that, someone who's listening might think,"Well, he's been in ministry his whole life, and therefore, it's real easy for him to do that." And I was a public school teacher and administrator for 26 years.
00:10:05.269 --> 00:10:05.279
Mm.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:10.570
And my reputation was that I was a b- follower of Jesus.
00:10:10.649 --> 00:10:10.679
Mm.
00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:28.340
I always l- watched very carefully to follow the school district, r- regulations, federal regulations, all those kinds of things, and yet I led two Young Life clubs in a public school setting while I was working there, continued to serve in ministry.
00:10:28.629 --> 00:10:35.210
And, so you c- you can do it because it's the things that you say, the way you behave.
00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:39.799
People are watching, and especially as people know that you are a follower of Jesus.
00:10:39.809 --> 00:10:39.820
Mm.
00:10:40.330 --> 00:10:45.309
Their eyes are even more fixed on, on everything you do and say.
00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:47.330
So yes, you can.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:48.570
You can and should.
00:10:48.570 --> 00:10:58.190
And, and I would say even today, all these many years later, I serve on a board that is a nonprofit board, but it is not faith-based.
00:10:58.200 --> 00:10:58.210
Mm.
00:10:58.570 --> 00:11:14.049
We had a board meeting this week, and I was thinking about that very thing of, there are just little subtle ways that people recognize, the, by the way you interact with them, your, the, the input that you give.
00:11:14.769 --> 00:11:22.830
so it's both content and attitude that you project that helps them say,"Well, wait a minute.
00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:23.340
Who is...
00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:30.039
W- w- what, what's, what's behind Gary?" and so I had opportunities to do that even this week.
00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:38.470
And, again, a nonprofit board, not faith-based, but living out my faith- Yeah by the way I interact with my, my peers there.
00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:39.539
No, that's great.
00:11:40.149 --> 00:11:45.179
I appreciate that real life example, and it is, we're not waving a flag.
00:11:45.259 --> 00:11:47.409
It's more of living our life out every day.
00:11:47.419 --> 00:11:47.440
Yeah.
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:56.889
And then some, we hope people will ask us- Yeah"Hey, what's different?" Or,"What's going on?" Or sometimes people, may come to us for advice because we may be the calm one in the room, hopefully.
00:11:56.899 --> 00:11:56.919
Yeah.
00:11:56.970 --> 00:11:58.850
Not always, but hopefully the calm one.
00:11:59.711 --> 00:12:03.841
How has your understanding of success changed because of your faith?
00:12:05.238 --> 00:12:13.768
Well, you know, being an educator Yeah you go into the field of education not for f- for financial reward.
00:12:14.107 --> 00:12:30.177
And so I think that helped frame early on, the fact that the, what God was calling me to do, whether in a public school environment or in a, in a ministry environment, it was not for financial gain.
00:12:30.538 --> 00:12:39.057
And so, I think that, that's laid a good foundation, for the, the rest of my career of thinking what is success.
00:12:39.067 --> 00:12:45.977
For me, I look at success, again, you've, you've, you, you said I'm on lots of boards.
00:12:46.488 --> 00:12:57.327
I am, on a b- I'm working with, consulting with a board, a national board, and the national board chair is a graduate of a school where I served as the head- headmaster.
00:12:57.337 --> 00:12:57.347
Mm.
00:12:57.947 --> 00:12:59.388
And I have...
00:13:00.727 --> 00:13:11.587
I just c- marvel at the fact that I, I often say that n- we don't get to necessarily pick the fruit or see the fruit of our labors.
00:13:12.148 --> 00:13:17.618
W- so much of what we do for the cause of Christ will be, in, in eternity we'll see that.
00:13:17.618 --> 00:13:21.248
But here on Earth, we don't get that privilege necessarily.
00:13:21.768 --> 00:13:33.357
But I've had the privilege of working with this young man and seeing all that I invested in him early on in his life, and now he's in his early 40s, and he's leading a national board, and I think that is success.
00:13:33.388 --> 00:13:33.528
Mm.
00:13:33.937 --> 00:13:38.827
I d- I, you know, and I don't, certainly not taking credit for all of his success.
00:13:39.227 --> 00:13:49.298
But he does say to me that I've had an influence on him in terms of my leadership style, my faith, f- my, the foundation of my faith.
00:13:49.648 --> 00:13:52.067
Those are the things that have been exemplary for him.
00:13:52.087 --> 00:14:05.498
And so, yeah, I th- I think for me a measure of success came early on knowing that it was investing in young people's lives and knowing that I might never, you know, see the, the rewards from that.
00:14:05.498 --> 00:14:06.548
I think about my wife.
00:14:06.878 --> 00:14:09.467
My wife was a early childhood teacher.
00:14:09.977 --> 00:14:14.937
she did, the preschool as well as all the way up through about fourth grade.
00:14:14.937 --> 00:14:17.158
But most, kind of her sweet spot was second grade.
00:14:17.697 --> 00:14:20.628
And I, I can't tell you who my second grade teacher was.
00:14:20.638 --> 00:14:23.607
A lot of people can do all that kind of stuff, but I don't remember who it was.
00:14:24.028 --> 00:14:29.278
But I'm sure that my second grade teacher had a profound influence on my life, and I know my wife did.
00:14:30.307 --> 00:14:36.077
some of her students do actually come up to see her and, and applaud her for what she did.
00:14:36.077 --> 00:14:48.177
So it's, it, I think, I, I just use her as an example of someone who might never see a lot of fruit even though there is a lot of fruit from the work that- Yeah that she's done.
00:14:49.378 --> 00:14:55.947
we can't count on that, but I think we have to look at it from this end of it's all about investment.
00:14:55.957 --> 00:15:10.860
It's investing in people's lives with no motive other than their success and their their ability that they can continue and to contribute, to society and for the cause of Christ as well.
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:11.659
Yeah.
00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:12.409
No, thank you.
00:15:12.590 --> 00:15:22.581
I think, you made me think of Success, your definition of success and other people's, th- everybody has a little bit of a different definition of it.
00:15:22.601 --> 00:15:32.851
And what I'm hearing from you is you're, you I'm sure if I were to say,"Did you have success goals when you were leading the school?" You did.
00:15:32.912 --> 00:15:33.371
Absolutely.
00:15:33.371 --> 00:15:35.442
There were tangible goals you had to hit.
00:15:36.111 --> 00:15:36.142
Right.
00:15:36.152 --> 00:15:40.802
But at the end of the day, if you had hit all of those and not had an impact on people-
00:15:40.841 --> 00:15:41.131
Right
00:15:41.532 --> 00:15:45.532
then it's kinda like at the end of, of our life, well, what was that all about?
00:15:45.532 --> 00:15:45.741
Right.
00:15:47.491 --> 00:15:48.032
do you have...
00:15:48.331 --> 00:15:51.091
It reminds me of a book, Halftime, I don't know if you've read the book Halftime.
00:15:51.162 --> 00:15:51.211
Sure, yeah.
00:15:51.211 --> 00:15:51.912
Which is a great book.
00:15:51.922 --> 00:15:52.642
It's an older book.
00:15:53.381 --> 00:15:58.611
and just that stage in life where we're in our 40s or 50s reevaluating what are we gonna do that second half?
00:15:59.231 --> 00:15:59.822
Mm-hmm.
00:16:00.351 --> 00:16:06.532
any thoughts, you know, it kinda ties into my next question was how do you remain spiritually healthy while carrying leadership responsibilities?
00:16:06.542 --> 00:16:09.432
I know that's a challenge for a lot of leaders, for myself as well.
00:16:09.442 --> 00:16:16.471
How do we remain spiritually healthy when I'm in a COO role, for example, and you're leading, nonprofits as well.
00:16:17.292 --> 00:16:18.351
How do you balance that?
00:16:18.361 --> 00:16:20.142
There's still lots to do.
00:16:22.022 --> 00:16:23.422
people are asking questions.
00:16:23.432 --> 00:16:31.471
They have results that they need to see, and yet we need to, not give 100%, so to speak.
00:16:31.491 --> 00:16:38.011
We want to give 100%, but we have to also give to our families and to ourselves and things like that.
00:16:38.011 --> 00:16:40.211
Any thoughts on how you balance that?
00:16:40.392 --> 00:16:40.422
Yes.
00:16:40.422 --> 00:16:41.902
You've probably read the book Atomic Habits.
00:16:41.951 --> 00:16:42.402
Yes.
00:16:42.631 --> 00:16:42.761
Yeah.
00:16:42.772 --> 00:16:51.711
And we had our g- our 13-year-old grandson r- his mother had him read it this smer, and so it's kinda fresh on, on my mind as well, and it's those little things.
00:16:51.751 --> 00:17:13.432
If you were to ask my son, one of my sons, probably both of them, you know,"What do you remember about growing up and getting ready for the day?" You know, there were certain things that, my younger son who's here in town, he, he said,"The, the first thing I think about you, Dad, is sitting at the kitchen table having breakfast and reading scripture." Mm.
00:17:14.271 --> 00:17:31.652
I, I've, I When I taught at the university, I always told my students, they were all pre- pre-service teachers, and I told them,"Don't ever go into your classroom without being prayed up and read up in scripture because you will then make terrible decisions.
00:17:32.422 --> 00:17:34.352
you will say the wrong thing.
00:17:34.362 --> 00:17:35.872
You'll discipline the wrong way.
00:17:35.872 --> 00:17:39.721
You'll teach the wr- you'll d- it just, just won't go well with you." Mm.
00:17:39.731 --> 00:17:46.051
And so those atomic habits of d- you know, it's so basic.
00:17:46.132 --> 00:17:46.271
Mm.
00:17:46.731 --> 00:17:53.491
When I was in college, we d- we were in Ca- Ca- my wife and I met in Campus Crusade, and we studied the 10 basic steps of Christianity.
00:17:53.991 --> 00:18:08.102
And it, it's just those basic steps of having your devotion, being in the word, praying, having that discipline to set your day off in the, in the right tone makes all the difference.
00:18:08.442 --> 00:18:12.902
And I, it's so many times- It just comes back to the basics, right?
00:18:12.912 --> 00:18:12.961
Yes,
00:18:13.041 --> 00:18:13.402
it does.
00:18:13.442 --> 00:18:16.981
I was think- you know, whether it's, think about athletics, it's the same thing.
00:18:17.682 --> 00:18:30.892
every time I would go to watch some of our, the s- the sporting events or the, the, the pre-service, pre-, competition- Mm training that our athletes went through, they're doing the basics.
00:18:30.971 --> 00:18:31.711
It's fundamental.
00:18:31.721 --> 00:18:32.301
It's fundamental.
00:18:32.301 --> 00:18:32.741
It's fundamental.
00:18:32.741 --> 00:18:32.761
Yeah.
00:18:32.821 --> 00:18:42.311
You hear all that in coaching, and I think it's the same thing- It is in coaching in terms of our spiritual lives, that it always boils down to those, those fundamentals.
00:18:42.321 --> 00:18:42.342
Yeah.
00:18:42.342 --> 00:18:46.801
And if you're getting those right, then a lot of other things just fall into place.
00:18:47.122 --> 00:18:47.862
Yeah, it really is...
00:18:47.892 --> 00:18:49.342
What I hear you is that discipline.
00:18:49.531 --> 00:18:49.682
Yeah.
00:18:49.832 --> 00:18:50.471
It's the, it's the discipline.
00:18:50.642 --> 00:18:50.761
Right.
00:18:50.761 --> 00:18:51.721
It's the living it out.
00:18:51.721 --> 00:18:54.112
We all, I think we all want shortcuts.
00:18:55.041 --> 00:18:59.442
I know if we could, if I could lose 10 pounds without going to the gym or exercising, I would.
00:18:59.442 --> 00:18:59.571
Right.
00:18:59.571 --> 00:18:59.701
Sure.
00:18:59.701 --> 00:19:00.602
We, we want that.
00:19:00.632 --> 00:19:00.912
Right.
00:19:01.912 --> 00:19:05.922
but it's that discipline and those habits, because there's other benefits from it.
00:19:06.402 --> 00:19:14.741
There may be a quicker way sometimes to do things, but going through those, atomic habits, as you mentioned, gives us discipline for the future and helps us as a leader.
00:19:16.182 --> 00:19:27.672
Why- I think the other thing is- Yeah to be careful to not try to, multitask or use- Mm modern technology and that kind of thing.
00:19:28.082 --> 00:19:32.041
We think it's gonna make us more efficient, and it actually can be counterproductive.
00:19:32.451 --> 00:19:45.281
So to not, not try to, the, the precious time you spend with the Lord first thing in the morning is, and, and I say first thing, I mean, sometimes I get up and do a few chores or whatever.
00:19:45.281 --> 00:19:50.311
When I sit down to have my breakfast is when I, you know, I've got my stack of books and my scripture.
00:19:50.311 --> 00:19:50.571
Sure.
00:19:50.571 --> 00:19:56.362
And, the tendency would be, well, I can listen to this while I'm doing something else.
00:19:56.362 --> 00:19:58.491
I mean, I listen to sermons while I work out.
00:19:59.342 --> 00:20:00.751
There's nothing wrong with that.
00:20:01.092 --> 00:20:02.491
But, but in addition to...
00:20:02.501 --> 00:20:07.311
That, that's kind of in addition to- Mm the basics.
00:20:07.311 --> 00:20:07.501
Yeah.
00:20:07.751 --> 00:20:15.412
So to be careful to not try to, streamline it, make it more efficient- Sure'cause it's not about efficiency.
00:20:15.412 --> 00:20:15.741
It's about...
00:20:15.821 --> 00:20:20.652
This morning, my, my devotions were on how much God loves us.
00:20:21.672 --> 00:20:21.682
Mm.
00:20:21.682 --> 00:20:28.071
and s- and the scriptures were from, from Song of Solomon, and just the intimacy of the relationship that we have with him.
00:20:28.071 --> 00:20:34.332
We can't have intimacy in a relationship if you don't actually have some time- Yeah with the person who loves you, so.
00:20:34.342 --> 00:20:34.501
Yeah.
00:20:34.602 --> 00:20:35.071
Very good.
00:20:35.731 --> 00:20:35.761
Yeah,
00:20:35.761 --> 00:20:35.862
yeah.
00:20:35.862 --> 00:20:36.211
Thank you.
00:20:36.211 --> 00:20:40.652
And I, I think that applies all through our spiritual walk, but also all through leadership.
00:20:40.711 --> 00:20:45.481
It really is having those disciplines to be a ongoing learner.
00:20:46.142 --> 00:20:52.531
we ha- can't just read Atomic Habit, which is a great book, and then,"Okay, I've read it." You actually have to put it into practice.
00:20:52.541 --> 00:20:52.711
Right.
00:20:52.731 --> 00:20:54.201
So it's the same for our spiritual walk.
00:20:54.211 --> 00:20:54.241
I know.
00:20:54.241 --> 00:20:55.241
We need to put it into practice.
00:20:55.251 --> 00:20:56.951
We've been telling the 13-year-old that.
00:20:56.951 --> 00:21:00.251
We keep saying,"So what are you actually doing?" Very good.
00:21:00.281 --> 00:21:01.092
You know, you got the concept.
00:21:01.102 --> 00:21:01.422
Yes.
00:21:01.432 --> 00:21:10.201
Last smer's was the, Make Your Bed book that the, the military general or admiral, I think it was, wrote.
00:21:10.582 --> 00:21:14.832
And that if you make your bed first thing in the morning, that everything else- Yeah kind of flows from that.
00:21:15.321 --> 00:21:16.771
And I will tell you that many...
00:21:16.862 --> 00:21:24.031
Either he didn't sleep in that bed- or he made that, that 13-year-old made that bed every- There you go every day this smer on our vacation, so.
00:21:24.031 --> 00:21:24.362
Put it into
00:21:24.362 --> 00:21:24.912
practice.
00:21:24.932 --> 00:21:25.791
Put it into practice.
00:21:25.791 --> 00:21:27.442
So there's an atomic habit for you.
00:21:27.451 --> 00:21:28.192
There you go.
00:21:28.201 --> 00:21:34.701
Well, speaking of leadership and lessons, what's one of the hardest leadership lessons you've learned?
00:21:35.885 --> 00:21:36.655
You know, being...
00:21:36.675 --> 00:21:52.726
I have a very tender heart, and so I think the h- the thing you, you can be told this over and over again, but to actually experience it is really difficult, and that is that you are not gonna please 100% of the people 100% of the time.
00:21:53.286 --> 00:21:54.695
You have to make hard decisions.
00:21:54.695 --> 00:21:56.506
You make courageous deci- decisions.
00:21:56.506 --> 00:22:00.885
You do the right thing, and you stand on principle, then that's how you get through that.
00:22:01.405 --> 00:22:06.536
But the, the hardest lesson is just that you, you just can't make everybody happy.
00:22:06.536 --> 00:22:15.336
You'll, you'll drive yourself crazy, and you'll do the organization no good by trying to do that, so.
00:22:15.836 --> 00:22:16.365
I agree.
00:22:16.695 --> 00:22:16.746
Yeah.
00:22:16.756 --> 00:22:18.145
I, we, think we've been there.
00:22:18.236 --> 00:22:18.486
Yeah.
00:22:18.496 --> 00:22:21.256
And, I think that's, that is a challenge,
00:22:21.435 --> 00:22:36.306
You know, as coming in as, I'll tell you this too, coming in as a consultant or as an interim- Hmm after I retired, so often I would see things that had been left undone because someone would not make the courageous decision to get something done.
00:22:36.316 --> 00:22:36.326
Hmm.
00:22:36.685 --> 00:22:42.365
And then you see the negative effects of that, that, that kinda go out in ripples throughout the organization.
00:22:42.375 --> 00:22:42.385
Hmm.
00:22:42.955 --> 00:22:44.195
And then you come in as...
00:22:44.546 --> 00:22:51.816
You know, and it's easier if, as you come in as someone who doesn't have the deep relationships with other people, you can maybe make the hard decision.
00:22:51.826 --> 00:22:51.836
Hmm.
00:22:52.266 --> 00:23:05.056
But it would've been so much better for that person or for, for the entire organization to have- Hmm you know, made some courageous calls earlier on and prevented a lot of damage down the road, so.
00:23:05.215 --> 00:23:05.465
Yeah.
00:23:05.885 --> 00:23:06.925
No, I think we've both...
00:23:07.036 --> 00:23:07.705
Well, I know I have.
00:23:07.705 --> 00:23:08.536
I think you have, too.
00:23:08.596 --> 00:23:13.885
I've gone into several organizations needing to turn them around, and it's always interesting.
00:23:13.895 --> 00:23:16.056
There were some easy f- there's always low-hanging fruit.
00:23:16.076 --> 00:23:16.405
Right.
00:23:16.566 --> 00:23:29.415
And the lowest hanging fruit usually is if someone just would've had hard conversations, not mean or evil con- No, no just, just hard with,"Hey, help me understand why," and have those conversations versus ignoring them.
00:23:29.415 --> 00:23:31.246
I think that's one of the largest challenges.
00:23:31.246 --> 00:23:31.526
Yeah.
00:23:31.855 --> 00:23:46.246
I really appreciate, Kim Scott's book, Radical Candor, talks about that- Hmm and how she's, I won't go into the whole thing, but basically, you know, if, if, if you have employees and you're not having the honest, real conversations, you're actually hurting them.
00:23:46.455 --> 00:23:46.476
You
00:23:46.566 --> 00:23:46.655
are.
00:23:46.655 --> 00:23:50.705
We're actually holding them back- Yeah because they're not, they don't know what's wrong- Yeah if we don't tell them.
00:23:50.885 --> 00:23:50.955
Yeah.
00:23:51.066 --> 00:23:52.175
In a, in a respectful way.
00:23:52.195 --> 00:23:52.425
Sure.
00:23:52.435 --> 00:23:53.625
But how do we help them do that?
00:23:53.635 --> 00:23:53.655
Yeah.
00:23:53.695 --> 00:23:59.905
So, well, let's move into a little bit of some practical leadership insights.
00:24:00.476 --> 00:24:02.596
I know you've been doing leadership a while.
00:24:02.596 --> 00:24:06.316
What are some problems that you're most passionate about solving?
00:24:09.347 --> 00:24:10.807
Passionate about solving.
00:24:12.268 --> 00:24:20.097
Probably the, the thing that I've spent the last maybe 10 years really focusing on is poor board leadership.
00:24:20.897 --> 00:24:35.948
I think in the nonprofit arena and ministry arena, there's a, a real challenge for heads of organizations and boards and how they work together, and I think that's what I've spent the most time on.
00:24:37.278 --> 00:24:48.038
I've studied, the, the, the model called policy governance that was developed by the Carvers, by John Carver and his wife, and I think it, it holds a lot of solutions.
00:24:48.038 --> 00:24:48.837
Nothing's perfect.
00:24:48.837 --> 00:24:57.107
You know, there's no system that you put in place that's gonna fix everything because it's run by people and we're- Let's say there's people involved right, we're f- Yeah we're flawed.
00:24:57.157 --> 00:24:57.347
Yeah.
00:24:57.917 --> 00:25:01.448
But, but it's one of the best things- Hm that I have seen.
00:25:02.198 --> 00:25:20.278
And i- in implementing that and then also w- being on boards that use that model, seeing how effective can, it can be, and also that it's not perfect, and that there are places where we're constantly having to refresh and sharpen our skills, re- as board members.
00:25:20.488 --> 00:25:20.498
Hm.
00:25:21.057 --> 00:25:26.478
And, and the, the reason I, I, I believe so strongly in it is because they...
00:25:26.548 --> 00:25:28.238
Boards are there for a good reason.
00:25:28.748 --> 00:25:38.347
They're to g- especially nonprofit, they're there to guard the mission, and they're also there to hire their chief executive officer and to take care of that person.
00:25:39.857 --> 00:25:55.915
And- When boards get off mission and when they don't take care of their head of, whether it's the head of the school or a ministry or a nonprofit, the, the, there, you cannot be effective.
00:25:55.986 --> 00:25:56.276
Mm.
00:25:57.115 --> 00:26:02.296
So the mission's not being met, and there's constant turnover by the head of the, of the organization.
00:26:02.895 --> 00:26:16.256
So that's why it's just so critical, and, I think why John Carver developed the model because he could see that, that effectiveness was diminished by the fact that board, board members don't know what they're doing.
00:26:16.395 --> 00:26:16.476
Yeah.
00:26:16.705 --> 00:26:24.226
You know, and sadly, board members get chosen for different reasons, and I don't blame them because they're like,"Well, what else am I supposed to do?
00:26:24.226 --> 00:26:34.036
This is what I do." And without training and without a model to plug into, they just, they just bring who they are to the table, and sometimes that can be very helpful.
00:26:34.046 --> 00:26:34.056
Mm.
00:26:34.516 --> 00:26:36.016
And sometimes it's very detrimental.
00:26:36.016 --> 00:26:45.226
And I think the other challenge that I've noticed, because I spend most of my time in the nonprofit world, is that there's a vast difference between a for-profit board and a nonprofit board.
00:26:45.875 --> 00:26:50.306
The, a for-profit board, yes, is mission-driven, but also profit-driven.
00:26:51.516 --> 00:26:55.715
And, as we well, well know nonprofits struggle with finances.
00:26:56.665 --> 00:27:05.865
and so how to work with the financial aspects of a nonprofit, are very different than the way you deal with it in a, in a for-profit world.
00:27:05.875 --> 00:27:05.885
Mm-hmm.
00:27:06.486 --> 00:27:12.435
So, yeah, so that's probably the thing- Yeah that I've been the most engaged with- Mm and probably passionate about.
00:27:12.435 --> 00:27:12.865
That's good.
00:27:13.486 --> 00:27:19.066
Well, I'm curious with that, with boards- as you've worked with a lot of boards, I know, over the last several years, you're currently working with boards.
00:27:21.566 --> 00:27:22.875
do you feel it's because...
00:27:23.096 --> 00:27:23.385
is...
00:27:23.645 --> 00:27:24.836
You mentioned two things.
00:27:24.846 --> 00:27:26.746
One, people don't know what their role is.
00:27:27.205 --> 00:27:31.006
Or there isn't a description or a process for them to follow.
00:27:31.496 --> 00:27:35.185
Is that generally what you find with most boards, they're just kind of winging it?
00:27:35.516 --> 00:27:39.365
You know, I think it's because board members want to contribute.
00:27:40.036 --> 00:27:41.536
They, they don't have bad motives.
00:27:41.546 --> 00:27:41.576
Sure.
00:27:41.586 --> 00:27:43.496
They really do want to g- Yeah they're there.
00:27:43.756 --> 00:27:46.145
They've been asked to serve, so they want to give.
00:27:46.605 --> 00:27:46.615
Mm.
00:27:46.865 --> 00:27:51.125
But they're, because the role is not defined, they don't know exactly how to do that.
00:27:51.135 --> 00:27:51.155
Mm-hmm.
00:27:51.155 --> 00:27:52.986
And I think that's the greatest challenge.
00:27:53.006 --> 00:27:53.155
Mm.
00:27:53.705 --> 00:27:59.086
It's also laying aside your personal agenda versus at work the agenda of the organization.
00:27:59.865 --> 00:28:01.955
That is often a, a big conflict.
00:28:02.195 --> 00:28:02.215
Yeah.
00:28:02.395 --> 00:28:16.715
If someone comes onto a board because they have a bone to pick or they have a pet project, that kind of thing- Mm that can also, again, cause mission drift because the board is now taking the organization off center and off focus.
00:28:16.776 --> 00:28:18.016
You know, that's the other book.
00:28:18.385 --> 00:28:26.451
If you were to ask me about books that are the, the most critical, especially in terms of our faith-driven missions.
00:28:27.811 --> 00:28:41.102
mission drift is a, is just such a great piece because it's, it, it illustrates what happens when a board ta- and gen- and most generally it is the board that will take an organization off focus.
00:28:41.112 --> 00:28:41.122
Mm.
00:28:41.711 --> 00:28:45.602
Not fixing their eyes on Jesus anymore, but fixing their eyes on something else.
00:28:46.221 --> 00:28:52.561
And, and the original intent of the organization is compromised.
00:28:52.731 --> 00:28:52.922
Mm.
00:28:52.991 --> 00:28:56.392
And as it, as it's compromised, it, it drifts even further.
00:28:56.801 --> 00:28:56.811
Mm.
00:28:56.811 --> 00:28:56.971
That's good.
00:28:56.971 --> 00:29:01.382
So that's, that's a, that's the responsibility of board members.
00:29:01.392 --> 00:29:01.402
Mm.
00:29:01.412 --> 00:29:16.932
They are often called trustees because they are entrusted with the mission of the organization, and that's a high calling and a big responsibility, and it gets lost in the weeds because we're, we're trying to get back into helping the person do their job.
00:29:16.942 --> 00:29:17.061
Yeah.
00:29:17.392 --> 00:29:19.721
And when we do, we lose focus on the bigger picture.
00:29:19.741 --> 00:29:20.332
That's good.
00:29:21.092 --> 00:29:27.561
Well, I will mention, Gary does a lot of this and has his consulting business, so I'll have his contact information in the show notes.
00:29:27.961 --> 00:29:34.991
You're currently helping us with a project as well, right now with the church, with helping the board, move forward with clarity and direction.
00:29:34.991 --> 00:29:39.422
And so we'll have that information in the show notes, for people if they want to reach out to you.
00:29:39.981 --> 00:29:40.061
That's great.
00:29:41.152 --> 00:29:44.642
what are leaders most commonly getting wrong today as you work with people?
00:29:45.741 --> 00:29:51.342
It's probably the age-old, focus on themselves rather than the organization.
00:29:52.132 --> 00:29:52.582
I can...
00:29:52.701 --> 00:30:00.192
I, I've mentored y- younger folks in, in that formal mentoring program, mentoring program that we had in the school district.
00:30:00.721 --> 00:30:03.821
I was assigned people to work for me.
00:30:04.781 --> 00:30:08.211
and so they w- kind of test them out, test out their skills and so on.
00:30:08.932 --> 00:30:26.531
And the ones that consistently, the ones who did poorly were the ones who were, just drawn to the shiny object, you know, the, the sweet candy, of The Lion, the Witch and the Ro- Wardrobe.
00:30:27.031 --> 00:30:29.231
They're just drawn to the title.
00:30:29.241 --> 00:30:30.932
They're drawn to more money.
00:30:30.951 --> 00:30:33.372
They're drawn to all the wrong things.
00:30:34.451 --> 00:31:02.132
and I think that's the greatest, the g- greatest challenge, that it's always been and is and, and will be that y- if you are not principled, if you don't really know why you've been called to serve, if you don't see it as a servant leadership position, those leaders are, are very prone to losing their way and for it to be about them.
00:31:02.211 --> 00:31:02.362
Mm.
00:31:02.622 --> 00:31:06.352
And eventually, it becomes about being entitled as a leader.
00:31:06.701 --> 00:31:08.392
"So I deserve these things.
00:31:08.392 --> 00:31:15.001
I have served this organization for a long time, and therefore, I, I deserve more perks." Mm.
00:31:15.011 --> 00:31:16.862
"And I deserve more pats on
00:31:16.862 --> 00:31:20.590
the back and more, more accolades." Yeah.
00:31:20.590 --> 00:31:22.721
but it's really never
00:31:22.721 --> 00:31:23.541
about you.
00:31:23.551 --> 00:31:32.541
It's always about, you know, what God's called you to do, and it's about the, the church you serve or the ministry you serve or the nonprofit or wherever you're serving.
00:31:32.541 --> 00:31:39.112
It's about them, and it's about, it's about keeping your eyes on Jesus and then your efforts on the people.
00:31:39.122 --> 00:31:39.281
Mm.
00:31:40.551 --> 00:31:41.842
It is that heart posture.
00:31:42.251 --> 00:31:46.741
And, why, like you said, higher education is not the best paying.
00:31:47.541 --> 00:31:49.412
educators get in'cause they care.
00:31:49.892 --> 00:31:52.932
we want leader- all leaders, we want, you know, the best ones.
00:31:53.811 --> 00:31:59.571
one of my top watched podcast is, how to deal with a micromanaging boss.
00:31:59.662 --> 00:32:01.541
I think it is my nber one watched, watched podcast.
00:32:02.051 --> 00:32:10.461
And people comment almost every week on it because they have micromanaging bosses, or they have a boss that just, is mean, and they're trying to understand how to deal with that.
00:32:10.461 --> 00:32:18.061
And usually, the mi- it's because they want the power, they want the control, and they're just not able to let go and let people lead and- For sure and in their world.
00:32:18.071 --> 00:32:18.332
Yeah.
00:32:19.261 --> 00:32:24.041
Well, in line with that, what's one question every leader should ask themselves more often?
00:32:24.352 --> 00:32:25.362
Any thoughts on that?
00:32:25.751 --> 00:32:26.731
Probably the same thing.
00:32:26.741 --> 00:32:27.932
Why- Same thing Why am
00:32:27.932 --> 00:32:28.061
I doing this?
00:32:28.061 --> 00:32:28.092
Why am I
00:32:28.092 --> 00:32:28.321
here?
00:32:28.652 --> 00:32:28.971
Yeah,
00:32:28.971 --> 00:32:29.521
okay.
00:32:29.701 --> 00:32:30.162
All right.
00:32:30.561 --> 00:32:32.071
Why am I putting myself through this?
00:32:32.122 --> 00:32:32.721
Yes.
00:32:33.622 --> 00:32:35.644
Yeah, and it, let's, let's talk about that for a minute.
00:32:35.683 --> 00:32:53.403
I mean, so let's say there's a leader who's like,"Why?" They're asking that question, and they're in a current role, and they're like,"Why am I putting myself through this?" And they feel that they maybe, Have reached a,"You know, I actually don't know why I'm doing this anymore." Mm.
00:32:53.413 --> 00:32:54.703
"I've lost my calling." Mm.
00:32:54.733 --> 00:32:57.223
"I've lost..." We've worked with people like that.
00:32:57.223 --> 00:32:59.253
W- I've kind of felt that way at times in different places.
00:32:59.253 --> 00:32:59.733
I'm like,"Well, why am I...
00:32:59.733 --> 00:33:02.183
Am I really supposed to be here?" W- would you...
00:33:02.263 --> 00:33:08.564
Any thoughts on how you've maybe helped other people or you've come back yourself to re-orientate, recenter?
00:33:08.564 --> 00:33:09.683
We talked about it earlier.
00:33:09.743 --> 00:33:13.203
I'm not trying to lead you, but to re-orientate ourselves.
00:33:13.334 --> 00:33:17.653
Because we all drift a little bit because the, the worries of life take over.
00:33:17.763 --> 00:33:21.374
The urgency, the tyranny of the urgent takes over at times- Right for all of us.
00:33:22.013 --> 00:33:29.423
You know, one of the principles of policy governance is that you, you're pri- you only have one employee, and you take good care of them.
00:33:29.423 --> 00:33:30.443
Well, how do you do that?
00:33:31.173 --> 00:33:32.173
there are three aspects.
00:33:32.304 --> 00:33:37.713
It's through good evaluation and giving them- Mm the feedback, good and hard conversations.
00:33:38.253 --> 00:33:53.284
So it's, it's evaluation, it's compensation, and it's paying them appropriately, not overpaying them because, you just, you have great affection for them, but al- w- in the context of the market to pay them a, a reasonable salary.
00:33:53.634 --> 00:33:55.003
But then it's also care.
00:33:55.044 --> 00:33:57.913
So it's evaluation, compensation, and care.
00:33:58.394 --> 00:34:06.243
And the care piece is where we often fall short because we're so focused on the organization, and we forget about the person.
00:34:06.784 --> 00:34:19.804
And, and I think, you know, the, the academic approach is to give a sabbatical, which is a wonderful thing, but that's on a seven-year cycle or some year cycle, and, it's...
00:34:19.923 --> 00:34:20.824
That's too long.
00:34:21.344 --> 00:34:31.003
I think what w- what you can best do is hold the person accountable to take time to get away, not months and weeks and...
00:34:31.344 --> 00:34:44.503
But maybe a week here and there or to take, long weekends and that kind of thing to be able to, to reflect and consider why they are doing what they're doing and to take care of themself.
00:34:45.713 --> 00:34:52.173
we are just so guilty of grinding it out, and good leaders will grind it out and never stop.
00:34:52.903 --> 00:34:54.244
And so the one of the...
00:34:54.324 --> 00:35:04.103
When y- you ask what is the role of a board member, one of the roles is evaluation, compensation, care, but the care piece has to have as much weight as the other two.
00:35:04.114 --> 00:35:07.233
We're good about saying,"Well, we're on an evaluation schedule.
00:35:07.583 --> 00:35:09.264
We're having those hard conversations.
00:35:09.264 --> 00:35:10.494
We're setting goals with them.
00:35:10.494 --> 00:35:11.994
We're holding them accountable to goals.
00:35:12.664 --> 00:35:14.824
they have metrics that they need to submit," and all that.
00:35:14.974 --> 00:35:16.313
Th- sure, we're good at that.
00:35:16.653 --> 00:35:21.454
But when it comes to the care piece, I would say a lot of boards are just aren't as good at that.
00:35:21.784 --> 00:35:21.813
Mm.
00:35:21.893 --> 00:35:22.583
And so that...
00:35:22.603 --> 00:35:32.923
Because by then almost forcing the person to reevaluate where they are, they can come to a place of saying,"Yes, this is what God's called me to.
00:35:32.923 --> 00:35:46.271
This is what I, this is what I, I am passionate about, and I'm, I'm re-energized and ready to come back and hit again." And the other thing I wanna say about that, too, is that it's okay To take on a leadership role and then say,"You know what?
00:35:46.842 --> 00:35:48.402
I don't think I'm cut out for this." Mm.
00:35:48.452 --> 00:36:04.202
"I don't think this is what God's really called me to do." I, m- you know, my r- immediate, thought is about a few teachers along the way that we thought,"Well, you know, let's test out their leadership," and we pulled them into the administrative ranks, and they couldn't wait to get back in the classroom.
00:36:04.501 --> 00:36:06.172
There is nothing wrong with that.
00:36:06.172 --> 00:36:06.222
Yeah.
00:36:06.222 --> 00:36:23.771
We sort of, we layer on our, our earthly, values on that saying, well, y- you have more value if you are out of the classroom or if you are out of the trenches and at some leadership level, and that is not true.
00:36:24.152 --> 00:36:47.592
And so it's okay if a person goes through this leadership track, tests the waters, says,"You know, that's not what God's calling me to do." It's okay, to, because you've got You've, you want to find joy in what it is you're doing, and if there is no joy left in your administrative role or leadership role, maybe God's saying,"You know, I'm pushing you out of the nest." Mm.
00:36:47.601 --> 00:36:53.322
"I got another place where I want you to get your hands dirty and, and not, not be at that leadership level." Yeah.
00:36:53.351 --> 00:36:54.121
That's fine.
00:36:54.422 --> 00:36:55.291
And I can appreciate that.
00:36:55.351 --> 00:36:55.692
Yeah.
00:36:55.762 --> 00:37:02.222
We can all get a little complacent and then feel a little bit like we're going to be the last person off the ship.
00:37:02.231 --> 00:37:02.262
Right.
00:37:02.271 --> 00:37:03.152
We have to go down.
00:37:03.161 --> 00:37:03.192
Right.
00:37:03.192 --> 00:37:05.052
And that's not what we're called to do- No many times.
00:37:05.572 --> 00:37:09.231
Thank you for mentioning the need to get away and evaluate.
00:37:09.681 --> 00:37:21.981
I really, for myself, I need that every year a time or two, ongoing, but specifically to re-dream a little bit, consider what's happening, process.
00:37:22.061 --> 00:37:26.692
Otherwise, we just get stuck in what is, and we don't We lose the creativity a little bit.
00:37:26.692 --> 00:37:26.891
Yeah.
00:37:26.891 --> 00:37:27.572
I think that's part of it.
00:37:27.572 --> 00:37:39.822
You know, one of the, the kind of fitness tips that you hear or, you know, nutrition tips, those kinds of things are, they talk about exercise snacks, and exercise snacks are like, you know, I've been working on...
00:37:40.052 --> 00:37:44.922
My so- I have an older son who, every day he walks out of his office.
00:37:44.931 --> 00:37:52.362
He drives to a, he lives up in the northwest, a beautiful park that's very close to the college where he's- Mm he works, and he walks.
00:37:53.192 --> 00:37:54.972
And he takes an, a snack.
00:37:54.981 --> 00:38:03.092
He takes a, a health snack by walking- Mm that, for an hour, 45 minutes, whatever it is.
00:38:03.092 --> 00:38:06.512
Takes his whole lunch hour and then goes back to work, and he's ready to work again.
00:38:06.521 --> 00:38:06.532
Mm.
00:38:06.541 --> 00:38:28.282
So s- that self-care, you know, you can take that to an extreme, but on the little bits and pieces a lo- daily- Mm as well as having your, the disciplines of devotions and that kind of thing, but then periodically to schedule all that stuff in because if you don't, it won't happen, and then you find yourself really in a world of hurt.
00:38:29.389 --> 00:38:29.730
Yeah.
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:31.460
Good, good advice So
00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:31.670
take
00:38:31.670 --> 00:38:32.199
a snack
00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:33.119
I f- I like it.
00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:33.880
No, that's good.
00:38:34.829 --> 00:38:37.699
I, h- what comes to mind is how many of us just work through lunch.
00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:38.190
Right.
00:38:38.260 --> 00:38:38.429
Right?
00:38:39.380 --> 00:38:41.329
and- Yeah once in a while, that's fine.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:41.769
Right
00:38:41.789 --> 00:38:45.110
But it's usually five days a week- Yeah you know, 52 weeks a year.
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:48.090
Oh, and I, I can tell you, I was guilty of that many, many times.
00:38:48.429 --> 00:38:55.559
When I came to the university, it was really sweet, I had left a very stressful leadership position and I went to the university to teach.
00:38:56.059 --> 00:39:04.219
And my first semester there, I was tr- starting to work through lunch, and my colleagues, the other professors of education, would come into my office.
00:39:04.219 --> 00:39:05.199
They go,"Mm-mm.
00:39:05.610 --> 00:39:06.239
Not here.
00:39:06.699 --> 00:39:07.699
We don't do that here.
00:39:07.699 --> 00:39:09.719
We, we are colleagues.
00:39:09.969 --> 00:39:18.400
And, and there, there is great value in rubbing shoulders with each other and connecting with each other and talking about practice, good practice and what we're reading.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:24.000
And so y- you aren't leaving your desk, you're going to the cafeteria with us.
00:39:24.309 --> 00:39:45.019
We're gonna have lunch together and have fellowship and connect." And it was such a gr- such a simple thing, but such a powerful reminder that we're not machines and that we need, we need those health breaks during- Yeah and during, the snacks, during the day, as well as periodically and seasonally, so.
00:39:45.579 --> 00:39:46.260
Well, thank you.
00:39:46.260 --> 00:39:48.210
And that's a great example of peer leadership.
00:39:48.630 --> 00:39:52.329
They're your peers, but they led you to say,"Hey- Yeah that's not what we do."
00:39:52.590 --> 00:39:52.679
Very much so.
00:39:52.690 --> 00:39:52.880
Yeah.
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.570
This is, let's model it together.
00:39:54.570 --> 00:39:54.860
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:54.860 --> 00:39:57.449
And that's good, and it's obviously, was a positive-
00:39:57.460 --> 00:39:57.760
That's great
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:06.826
positive thing you've kinda touched on this, I think, but how do you make difficult decisions when there isn't a clear answer or a clear direction to go?
00:40:06.876 --> 00:40:09.056
You know, it's like everything in life, isn't it?
00:40:09.065 --> 00:40:22.226
I mean, it's, I think Colossians verse, now that I'm on film here I'll probably not be able to quote it, but, it says,"Ever since I first heard about you, I've not stopped praying for you.
00:40:22.255 --> 00:40:22.326
Hmm.
00:40:22.326 --> 00:40:34.425
I continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of His will, through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord, pleasing Him in every way, growing in the knowledge of God." Hmm.
00:40:35.025 --> 00:40:45.686
And I, I just had the privilege of speaking to a church on that verse, and that we often pray for each other regarding some very specific kinds of things, and we should.
00:40:46.655 --> 00:40:50.376
the Lord cares about the things we care about.
00:40:50.385 --> 00:40:50.396
Hmm.
00:40:50.795 --> 00:40:52.346
And so we should be praying for those.
00:40:52.346 --> 00:40:56.396
But at the same time, we need to pray for the wisdom and knowledge that only the Spirit gives.
00:40:56.916 --> 00:41:15.356
And so whether it's, you know, my wife and I are trying to make decisions right now regarding a home remodeling project that's driving us crazy- and very expensive, and we wanna be good stewards, but we also, stewards of our home, stewards of His resources, and we wanna be a great testimony to the people that we're meeting with.
00:41:16.096 --> 00:41:17.635
but man, it's a hard decision.
00:41:17.916 --> 00:41:29.576
So whether it's that level of executive leadership in your home, or with your family, with your kids- Hmm and decisions you're making with them, or from an organizational perspective, what do we pray for?
00:41:29.576 --> 00:41:32.456
We pray for the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives.
00:41:33.076 --> 00:41:38.726
So, th- that, you know, that may seem overly spiritual, but it's the truth.
00:41:38.795 --> 00:41:47.445
I mean, that's the only way that you can come to a decision that's gonna honor the Lord, honor Biblical principles, and, and come out with an end.
00:41:47.585 --> 00:41:48.896
Because God knows.
00:41:48.905 --> 00:41:53.405
He's sovereign over all of those tough decisions, and so praying over all of them.
00:41:53.405 --> 00:42:09.195
You know, the privilege of being in, in a Christian en- school environment versus a public school was that we would, you know, we'd have tough decisions with families or students making, you know, growing up decisions that were not in the best interest of them or the school.
00:42:09.726 --> 00:42:16.695
And, and praying through those with those families, too, made those hard decisions bearable.
00:42:16.916 --> 00:42:17.096
Hmm.
00:42:18.056 --> 00:42:22.885
and God gets us, gets us through the- Yeah valley of the shadow in those circstances.
00:42:22.925 --> 00:42:22.945
Yeah.
00:42:23.735 --> 00:42:26.335
No, I always think y- we do have, you have to make a decision.
00:42:26.465 --> 00:42:28.315
Not making a decision is making a decision.
00:42:28.326 --> 00:42:28.706
Right.
00:42:29.106 --> 00:42:35.365
But we want to be well-equipped, and that's really what you're, I think- Yeah talking about here is the- Yeah equipping comes from God.
00:42:35.365 --> 00:42:35.396
Yeah.
00:42:35.396 --> 00:42:37.215
And we still have to make the decision.
00:42:37.215 --> 00:42:38.365
He still is going to be in it.
00:42:38.365 --> 00:42:42.025
But, seeking Him and getting that wisdom is great.
00:42:42.596 --> 00:42:49.005
Let's shift a little bit into where you are today in your life, and what are you currently learning?
00:42:49.016 --> 00:42:50.565
What, what are you studying now?
00:42:50.576 --> 00:42:50.925
That's good.
00:42:51.436 --> 00:42:58.809
You know, I, I read recently, within the last six, eight months, a book called, what is the name of it?
00:42:58.809 --> 00:43:03.050
It's by Gary Miller, and it's called Both And Ministry.
00:43:03.929 --> 00:43:15.380
And I, in fact, I pulled it off my shelf this morning in preparation for coming to visit with you, and I s- looked at all the places that I've marked and underlined, and I have little sticky notes all over it.
00:43:15.389 --> 00:43:21.920
And then I, this young man that I meet with from, from church, I brought it to s- share some thoughts with him.
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:24.469
And it's just a great little piece.
00:43:24.469 --> 00:43:32.840
It's not a big, profound, vole, but it is, y- it's, it's small but mighty, I would say.
00:43:33.969 --> 00:43:41.110
There is a chapter in there on, on Both And Ministry, and I think it's been really in- instructive for me.
00:43:41.110 --> 00:43:43.389
And I'll give you a very specific example.
00:43:43.389 --> 00:43:48.340
I've been on a couple of boards where I've really struggled with, what is my role here?
00:43:48.789 --> 00:43:49.190
Am...
00:43:49.349 --> 00:43:57.699
You know, it goes back to those in- there, one b- board in particular does not follow policy governance, and it makes it a little bit harder for us to figure out what our role is.
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:04.789
And, I, I s- would struggle every, you know, at praying for the wisdom and knowledge that the Spirit gives.
00:44:04.789 --> 00:44:07.230
Lord, am I supposed to speak out here?
00:44:07.780 --> 00:44:08.269
Am I...
00:44:08.409 --> 00:44:14.889
It might be, either contrary or not popular with the other board members.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:19.510
Should I be courageous in speaking out, or should I hold back?
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:31.780
Should I submit to the wisdom of the whole, or is there a reason that I'm here for, you know, this, the, the concept of, what was the Lincoln book on the...
00:44:33.230 --> 00:44:34.210
What are, what are they called?
00:44:34.219 --> 00:44:35.539
The, oh, I can't think of...
00:44:35.550 --> 00:44:37.389
The idea where we're all equals.
00:44:38.059 --> 00:44:38.070
Mm.
00:44:38.070 --> 00:44:40.519
and Lincoln was the chief among equals.
00:44:40.530 --> 00:44:40.539
Mm.
00:44:40.550 --> 00:44:46.820
But he brought together people that he wanted to hear different opinions and different sides of things.
00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:50.079
So it's trying to find the wisdom- Mm on how to do that.
00:44:50.550 --> 00:45:00.130
And the, the book says, you know, the answer is, yes, you're supposed to be, speak out courageously, and at, and then also submit to the wisdom- Mm of the whole.
00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:09.070
But don't hold back on speaking out courageously, too, because in that, there might be something there that God's put on your heart to speak out, to say.
00:45:09.980 --> 00:45:20.269
It, and your approach needs to be such that I am willing to submit to the whole, but I, this is what God's laid on my heart, and I need to express it.
00:45:20.780 --> 00:45:43.835
And then, but, and the hard part, I think, is that once you've stated that, is to then let it, let it be- considered by the body of the whole and then submit to where- so that's just one example of the both/ands that we wrestle with in, in, leadership in particular, is do you...
00:45:44.045 --> 00:45:51.396
You know, another, another one is, like, do you, are you kind of above or do you f- fit in with?
00:45:51.896 --> 00:45:53.485
So are you leading?
00:45:53.865 --> 00:45:59.005
Yes, there's a s- there's a place where you do lead, but then you also engage at the lower level.
00:45:59.005 --> 00:46:16.831
And I remember the, the example that the author gave was that, and I c- this, I can see this happening on a regular basis even in my own, in my own experience, that As he was growing up, he went to a church that had to tear down and, and set up every week.
00:46:17.501 --> 00:46:28.032
And his dad always told him,"If you're looking for the best leaders in your church, look for the ones who are not only speaking out and leading things, but willing to pick up the chairs." Mm.
00:46:28.052 --> 00:46:36.722
"And if they're not willing to pick up the chairs, you don't want them a part of your leadership team." And I thought that's just so obvious and s- but so powerful.
00:46:36.922 --> 00:46:39.262
But that's the both and aspect of leadership.
00:46:39.581 --> 00:46:45.172
As you lead in a, again, in an organization or in a ministry, you are to be out front.
00:46:45.181 --> 00:46:46.342
People are looking to you.
00:46:46.342 --> 00:46:47.371
They need a shepherd.
00:46:47.371 --> 00:46:48.501
They need leadership.
00:46:48.891 --> 00:46:51.342
But at the same time, they wanna rub shoulders with you.
00:46:51.351 --> 00:46:55.402
You know, when the sheep leads their sheep, they also are affectionate with them.
00:46:55.411 --> 00:46:59.882
They're also touching them and leading them and prodding them, but they're among them.
00:46:59.891 --> 00:47:02.262
They don't separate themselves from them.
00:47:02.661 --> 00:47:05.032
So, I just love the book.
00:47:05.842 --> 00:47:06.262
I'm not...
00:47:06.282 --> 00:47:08.382
I don't get anything for promoting it.
00:47:08.391 --> 00:47:08.411
Yeah.
00:47:08.411 --> 00:47:11.052
But it's probably, like,$5 or something.
00:47:11.052 --> 00:47:11.112
Sure.
00:47:11.152 --> 00:47:12.391
It's only this thin.
00:47:12.782 --> 00:47:18.351
But it, it has just been a nice, refreshing- Yeah and reminder to me.
00:47:18.362 --> 00:47:18.391
Mm-hmm.
00:47:18.481 --> 00:47:25.422
a- and very, very practical for me in my role as a- Yeah as a board member.
00:47:25.431 --> 00:47:25.632
Yeah.
00:47:26.422 --> 00:47:26.862
No, good.
00:47:26.871 --> 00:47:26.891
Yeah.
00:47:26.902 --> 00:47:27.561
Thanks for sharing.
00:47:27.572 --> 00:47:27.592
Yeah.
00:47:28.072 --> 00:47:31.722
How are you adapting to change in this season of your life now?
00:47:31.762 --> 00:47:32.231
Yeah.
00:47:32.231 --> 00:47:41.592
I- I, it's, you know, it, the, the, the worship song says,"If, if I'm not dead, he's not done." And so that's been a good reminder for me.
00:47:42.242 --> 00:47:46.561
I have always been a doer, and I think, accepting...
00:47:46.882 --> 00:47:56.512
My, my mom has this, my mom is 97, and she has a little, clipping that she took out of the newspaper many years ago, and she has it posted on her bulletin board.
00:47:56.512 --> 00:48:14.771
And it says, it was a daily prayer that came in the local newspaper, and it says,"Lord, help me to accept the limitations that aging brings but continue to serve." And she said that was for her, and I'm like,"No, that's for me." You know?
00:48:14.782 --> 00:48:14.802
Yeah.
00:48:14.811 --> 00:48:23.972
There are limitations that we have as we age, both in terms of energy, fatigue- Mm mental acuity, missing, you know, word retrieval.
00:48:23.992 --> 00:48:26.822
Those kinds of things are very frustrating as you get older.
00:48:27.371 --> 00:48:37.001
But you have to accept them and then work within them and know what your limitations are and modify, whether it's your schedule or what- whatever it might be.
00:48:37.001 --> 00:48:39.621
I've never been good at saying no.
00:48:40.351 --> 00:48:50.750
I, the governor on my, my accelerator is my wife, who will of- often say,"Gary- Do you really need to be doing that many things?
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:50.849
Mm.
00:48:50.849 --> 00:48:51.150
You know.
00:48:51.190 --> 00:49:00.920
And so, I, I, I am s- I am adjusting to but learning a great deal that we're not w- God's not finished with us.
00:49:00.989 --> 00:49:06.280
And you know, my dad, as he aged, he, he lived to be 98, and he would say,"Gary, I think it's too long.
00:49:06.289 --> 00:49:15.179
I think the Lord needs to take me." And I would say to him, I would scold my dad, and I would say,"Dad, it's, it can't be too long because it's all in God's timing." Mm.
00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:31.340
"He knows how long He's designed for you to be here on Earth, and He has something for you to do." And, so I, I, I, I think that advice is good for me as well, that, I'm gonna stay in the game as long as God has me here and keep...
00:49:31.630 --> 00:49:43.690
I, yeah, it's funny'cause this week I listened to a sermon by Alistair Begg, who's one of my, one of my go-tos in terms of good, good preaching, and it was on Da- Daniel.
00:49:43.690 --> 00:49:49.030
And you know, Daniel is in his 80s still serving, and, a- and I think that's just...
00:49:49.050 --> 00:50:01.869
And he, Alistair Begg, made a big point of that because Alistair Begg has just recently retired from his formal role as the pastor of his church but continues to serve in this ministry that he's, called Truth For Life.
00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:11.900
And, he was in- saying to all of us who in, are in an advanced age, he's real careful how he, how he refers to us, but to stay in the game.
00:50:11.909 --> 00:50:11.920
Mm.
00:50:11.969 --> 00:50:17.449
To continue to serve, and with the modifications you need to make that are obvious, so.
00:50:17.460 --> 00:50:18.360
No, that's good.
00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:22.429
Well, what's stretching your leadership today, then, as you stay in the game?
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:23.260
H.
00:50:24.889 --> 00:50:42.190
You know, I think what's really funny is that as school is starting, I, my, my physical body said there's no way that I would wanna be back in a school environment, but my heart kept saying,"Gosh, it'd be fun to start school again," you know?
00:50:42.449 --> 00:50:46.469
And I'm on a school board, and so we're gonna have some r- some pieces of that.
00:50:46.469 --> 00:50:55.289
But, I think that's, you, you, as you age, you can't help but have sweet memories.
00:50:57.610 --> 00:51:03.349
but it's also, kind of a, you know, it's a mixed plus and minus.
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:04.570
Sure.
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:08.719
it's, you get a, a bit melancholy, and so you get stretched in that area as well.
00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:10.530
Well, that's good.
00:51:10.539 --> 00:51:19.219
So if you could rewind the clock- Oh, wow a few years- Yeah back to, say, 25, your 25-year-old Gary, what advice would you give yourself?
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:20.110
Oh, wow.
00:51:21.099 --> 00:51:35.112
I, I would probably say to, to, to modify the intensity And level it out a lot more.
00:51:35.762 --> 00:51:49.021
I think when you're young, you're just, you just, at least in my case, I'll speak to my own, my own case, full of energy, full of goals, ambitions, all those kinds of things, and you just drive, drive, drive, drive.
00:51:50.202 --> 00:51:55.641
I was never very good at downtime, hobbies, those kinds of things.
00:51:56.641 --> 00:52:11.311
and so I would just say that whole, that's the self-care of, of along the way, n- not waiting for a, a year or two or whatever, but I think I would've, I would've benefited from...
00:52:11.322 --> 00:52:18.461
I think my wife and our, and our kids would've benefited from a more, moderate schedule.
00:52:18.681 --> 00:52:18.811
Okay.
00:52:19.422 --> 00:52:21.902
and not pouring everything.
00:52:21.952 --> 00:52:29.541
I think I probably was the kind of guy that gave everything to my position at the expense of other things in my life, so.
00:52:29.612 --> 00:52:30.081
That's good,
00:52:30.081 --> 00:52:30.271
man.
00:52:30.311 --> 00:52:30.922
Don't do it.
00:52:32.411 --> 00:52:34.532
Well, somebody's listening and they're like,"That's nice, Gary.
00:52:34.532 --> 00:52:34.922
Thank you.
00:52:34.922 --> 00:52:42.992
I'm 26 and I'm having to run hard because I'm married or I've just bought a house or whatever." I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier.
00:52:42.992 --> 00:52:43.922
It's moderation.
00:52:43.922 --> 00:52:46.871
It's that balance, right- Yeah of having good daily routines.
00:52:46.952 --> 00:52:47.181
Yeah.
00:52:47.192 --> 00:52:48.032
You still run hard.
00:52:48.192 --> 00:52:48.512
Right.
00:52:49.632 --> 00:52:51.311
but not all the 24/7.
00:52:51.416 --> 00:52:51.472
Right.
00:52:51.472 --> 00:52:53.461
I think that's- Yeah if I'm hearing you correctly.
00:52:53.492 --> 00:52:53.702
Yep.
00:52:55.052 --> 00:52:57.291
Well, what do emerging leaders need most today?
00:52:57.291 --> 00:52:59.012
You work with a lot of emerging leaders.
00:52:59.012 --> 00:53:00.842
You're meeting with one on a regular basis.
00:53:00.842 --> 00:53:02.291
You ment- mentioned your mentoring.
00:53:02.291 --> 00:53:04.302
What, what do you think they need most today?
00:53:04.302 --> 00:53:05.472
'Cause times are changing.
00:53:06.092 --> 00:53:07.311
hans- They are things are...
00:53:07.382 --> 00:53:07.641
Yeah.
00:53:07.751 --> 00:53:08.222
Yeah.
00:53:08.222 --> 00:53:15.311
You know, I think trying to fig- wade through this mass of technology challenges.
00:53:15.391 --> 00:53:17.422
It's just everywhere.
00:53:17.862 --> 00:53:33.021
With the layered now on top with AI- Mm those are the greatest challenges that they have to face because, you know, I, I sort, I, I continually see, excuse me, that I h- I live in a bubble and I don't...
00:53:33.952 --> 00:53:41.371
And then I get these little glimpses of what life is really like out there, and I'm horrified, you know.
00:53:42.672 --> 00:53:51.072
just in terms of the, the, the pressures that people face- Mm the, the, the temptations that people have.
00:53:52.202 --> 00:53:54.351
everything is at your fingertips, you know.
00:53:54.351 --> 00:54:10.192
And so, whether it's addictions and addictions to the, you know, the, the time that people spend on their, their devices, that sort of thing, the kinds of things that are on the devices, the temptation to cheat because AI can do the work for you.
00:54:10.501 --> 00:54:12.992
I mean, there is just no end to, to that.
00:54:13.001 --> 00:54:27.931
So I think that conversation is certainly being hel- ha- held right now, but needs to be a, a real focus and, and people need to be very intentional about leadership, not only for themselves, but then for those- Mm the people that they lead.
00:54:27.942 --> 00:54:27.961
Yeah.
00:54:28.211 --> 00:54:29.231
You know, how do you...
00:54:29.291 --> 00:54:37.639
You know, for me, it's always so much of my life is about education, but- How do we, how do we lead a new, another generation that's coming up?
00:54:37.650 --> 00:54:42.769
You know, I see that in my, my grandkids, and the challenges that they face.
00:54:43.059 --> 00:54:58.440
How can we provide leadership through the church, through ministries- Mm through schools and so forth so that they're, they know how to wade through this- Mm oh my gosh, thick soup of- Yeah of technology?
00:54:58.530 --> 00:55:02.769
I, it's, it's a, it's a, an, an incredible tools.
00:55:02.769 --> 00:55:12.030
I mean- Mm we're using those kinds of technology tools as we sit here, whether it's filming or the- Mm preparation that we've done, the communication that we've had has all been technology based.
00:55:12.610 --> 00:55:16.489
So those are all great things, but in the proper context.
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:16.519
Mm-hmm.
00:55:16.530 --> 00:55:17.019
Yeah.
00:55:17.769 --> 00:55:17.789
So.
00:55:17.789 --> 00:55:18.119
It's good.
00:55:18.170 --> 00:55:23.239
And I think a lot of people, leaders can get overwhelmed with all that, and it's easy to be overwhelmed.
00:55:23.250 --> 00:55:24.099
There's a lot of change.
00:55:24.789 --> 00:55:25.079
Yeah.
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:27.579
but I think you, you don't have to agree with me.
00:55:27.579 --> 00:55:33.070
I, my take is it's all true that it is a lot, but we have to go back to the fundamentals.
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:34.610
Am I leading myself well?
00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:36.119
Am I taking care of myself?
00:55:36.500 --> 00:55:37.760
Am I in the daily routines?
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:39.590
Am we, am I going through the processes?
00:55:39.590 --> 00:55:48.800
'cause if I'm orientating myself well and taking, doing those things, I have a better mindset to be able to adapt- Mm and to- Yeah to do those things.
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:50.530
A- and pull other people in as well.
00:55:50.710 --> 00:55:54.519
Because then they are tools that can help us do all those things.
00:55:54.530 --> 00:55:54.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:56.369
They're not driving it.
00:55:56.380 --> 00:55:56.389
Mm.
00:55:56.670 --> 00:55:58.710
We're, we're using- Yeah them.
00:55:58.920 --> 00:55:59.119
Mm.
00:55:59.179 --> 00:56:02.940
I mean, as long as you have that perspective, you can- Yeah they, they can be very helpful.
00:56:03.190 --> 00:56:06.739
We haven't touched on this much, but I think one of the key things is also don't go alone.
00:56:06.929 --> 00:56:08.889
I think a lot of leaders do not get help.
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:19.442
Yeah,'cause you've mentioned early on you were in a group, you had leadership people training, and I just feel that there's, I don't know your thoughts, there's more isolation today in leadership.
00:56:19.561 --> 00:56:19.652
Mm.
00:56:19.661 --> 00:56:30.431
More go fast, go hard, which has always been there a little bit, but there's been a bit different m- you know, in the past, the, not even that long ago, there was more of a camaraderie.
00:56:30.771 --> 00:56:31.302
Mm.
00:56:31.302 --> 00:56:37.371
that seems to have changed a lot with s- technology cha- things that have happened.
00:56:37.992 --> 00:56:38.621
Any thoughts?
00:56:38.621 --> 00:56:39.782
Have you seen that as well?
00:56:39.782 --> 00:56:40.121
Or any thoughts on that?
00:56:40.121 --> 00:56:40.181
I
00:56:40.181 --> 00:56:45.541
have, and I- I've also seen a resistance on the part of s- leaders to s-"I don't have time for that."
00:56:45.581 --> 00:56:45.891
Mm.
00:56:46.661 --> 00:56:53.652
"I actually know more than the other people," so they don't admit that, but that's what comes across- Your shiny object you talked about earlier, yes sometimes.
00:56:53.811 --> 00:56:53.981
Right, right, exactly.
00:56:53.981 --> 00:56:56.742
So I, I'm gonna I don't benefit from that.
00:56:56.751 --> 00:56:56.762
Mm.
00:56:56.771 --> 00:57:09.862
And it goes back to, you know, my example of being drawn in by peers to go to lunch, for example, and how powerful that relationship was i- in terms of how it also enhanced my ability to be a better professional.
00:57:10.612 --> 00:57:17.722
but it's also true in professional organizations where, you know, so many things with COVID shut down all the conventions and conferences.
00:57:17.722 --> 00:57:28.271
Those were the things, those were lifeblood for me in terms of me getting away from the stress of my position and then g- rubbing shoulders with people in the same, who are doing the same job.
00:57:29.161 --> 00:57:29.942
Those are the best.
00:57:30.001 --> 00:57:34.612
And, and often we would go to those workshops, and then we'd have lunch or dinner together, whatever.
00:57:34.612 --> 00:57:38.661
The best part of the conference was always the relationships that we had with our peers.
00:57:39.081 --> 00:57:40.842
So that's really critical.
00:57:40.972 --> 00:57:41.041
Yeah.
00:57:41.211 --> 00:57:48.871
you need to s- seek them out and be intentional about, about having those conversations with each other face to face.
00:57:48.911 --> 00:57:49.001
Yeah.
00:57:49.391 --> 00:57:54.657
I mean, yes, some of them have to be virtual just by virtue of, our schedules and that kind of thing.
00:57:54.657 --> 00:57:54.791
Yeah.
00:57:54.791 --> 00:57:55.072
But-
00:57:55.161 --> 00:57:55.422
Yeah
00:57:55.461 --> 00:58:00.492
the one-on-one stuff is, or small group, whatever it might be- Yeah is really powerful.
00:58:00.862 --> 00:58:05.692
I just always encourage people I'm coaching and leaders is, more that I work with, don't, don't do it alone.
00:58:06.041 --> 00:58:06.342
Yeah.
00:58:06.351 --> 00:58:07.132
Just get help, and-
00:58:07.132 --> 00:58:07.481
Yeah
00:58:07.661 --> 00:58:09.052
I need to remind myself is that.
00:58:09.121 --> 00:58:10.112
I need help- Yeah and I call people.
00:58:10.282 --> 00:58:12.481
And even as you help others-
00:58:12.532 --> 00:58:12.711
Mm
00:58:12.952 --> 00:58:13.942
you sort of sort through.
00:58:13.942 --> 00:58:17.949
It's like,"Oh, wow, I didn't realize that I was really doing that so well," you know No,
00:58:17.949 --> 00:58:18.097
that's
00:58:18.097 --> 00:58:18.246
true.
00:58:18.246 --> 00:58:21.461
So you It's, it's that, it's the give and take- It's true, yeah that's so, so powerful in that.
00:58:21.461 --> 00:58:22.092
That's valid.
00:58:22.302 --> 00:58:22.842
Yeah.
00:58:22.961 --> 00:58:25.621
We'll go into some quick rapid fire questions here.
00:58:25.702 --> 00:58:25.731
Okay.
00:58:25.782 --> 00:58:26.942
Favorite leadership book?
00:58:27.755 --> 00:58:33.126
Well, the current one is- Okay yeah, the, the ministry book I talked about, Both/And Ministry.
00:58:33.126 --> 00:58:35.295
I- it's really right now is kind of a favorite.
00:58:35.306 --> 00:58:35.335
Okay.
00:58:35.346 --> 00:58:38.076
But the other one that I mentioned was Mission Drift.
00:58:38.405 --> 00:58:40.565
I think every leader should read it and reread it.
00:58:40.576 --> 00:58:45.175
We're actually on one of the school boards, the school board that I'm on, we are rereading that.
00:58:45.175 --> 00:58:52.525
We've all read it before, and we're doing it again because we feel like that's our primary role as a board, and we don't wanna mess that up, so.
00:58:52.536 --> 00:58:52.695
Nice.
00:58:52.726 --> 00:58:53.126
Yeah.
00:58:53.556 --> 00:58:54.715
Favorite Bible passage?
00:58:55.606 --> 00:59:02.976
Well, I shared one, and then, you know, Hebrews also from, you know, running the race with perseverance that God's marked out for us.
00:59:03.385 --> 00:59:11.835
Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy before Him, endure the cross, scorn the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the Father.
00:59:11.835 --> 00:59:17.275
Consider Him who endured such opposition at the hands of evil men, that you not grow weary and lose heart.
00:59:17.286 --> 00:59:25.456
And I think as a, as a leader, I was, back in the day, I'm no longer a runner, but back in the day, I ran for about 20 years.
00:59:25.806 --> 00:59:27.876
And that, that had...
00:59:27.945 --> 00:59:42.485
I mean, I would say that verse over and over again as I ran because it was, kept me healthy physically, mentally- Mm spiritually in so many ways because it reminded me that this is a, you know, for many of us, it's a long, it's a marathon.
00:59:43.005 --> 00:59:48.275
and then the finish line is out there, but it's at God's call where that finish line is.
00:59:48.775 --> 00:59:51.115
and you run that race with perseverance.
00:59:51.115 --> 00:59:58.826
And so for, for all the, for life, leadership, and all kinds of other reasons, it's been my life, lifelong verse.
00:59:58.835 --> 00:59:59.246
Love it.
00:59:59.876 --> 01:00:01.505
Best advice you've ever received?
01:00:03.038 --> 01:00:05.197
Best advice I've ever received.
01:00:05.887 --> 01:00:05.907
H.
01:00:06.478 --> 01:00:20.077
You know, that's funny because I was thinking about, one of my very first formal leadership positions was, a fellow who was pretty gruff, not a believer, chain smoker.
01:00:20.668 --> 01:00:24.217
Like, if we were sitting here, he would have blown smoke in my face like 10 times.
01:00:24.217 --> 01:00:33.257
And, I, I would say that the, the best thing I learned was how not to do things-
01:00:33.297 --> 01:00:33.648
Hmm
01:00:33.697 --> 01:00:34.518
from someone.
01:00:34.887 --> 01:00:36.838
And so, and that's...
01:00:36.887 --> 01:00:38.148
I, I loved the person.
01:00:38.148 --> 01:00:43.878
I really did love him very much, but, I learned you can learn as much on how not...
01:00:43.978 --> 01:00:44.577
Like, I would...
01:00:44.907 --> 01:00:49.168
You've heard people say,"I would never do it that way," and that's, that's probably...
01:00:49.398 --> 01:00:58.887
So the best advice is that, that I might have taken from it and that I would give is learn as much what not to do- Hmm as what to do.
01:00:59.057 --> 01:00:59.487
That's good.
01:00:59.748 --> 01:01:00.358
I like that.
01:01:00.867 --> 01:01:01.958
Well, let's go the other way.
01:01:01.958 --> 01:01:04.088
What's the worst advice you've ever received?
01:01:04.257 --> 01:01:04.898
Oh.
01:01:06.367 --> 01:01:17.577
You know, I, I would say it, it goes back to all those same principles of, you know, just blow through, don't listen to other people, be decisive.
01:01:17.577 --> 01:01:23.418
That, you know, this same person said to me,"T- it takes you too long to make a decision.
01:01:23.807 --> 01:01:25.777
Just make the call." You know?
01:01:25.777 --> 01:01:34.318
And so, so yeah, we make the call, and then we spend how much time cleaning up the mess'cause we didn't do our homework before.
01:01:34.717 --> 01:01:37.708
So the worst advice was just make the call.
01:01:37.737 --> 01:01:39.257
No, don't just make the call.
01:01:39.737 --> 01:01:51.838
You know, it's okay to listen, to process, to pray, to consider options, and to look for the very best, the, the best solution in any situation.
01:01:51.847 --> 01:01:51.867
Yeah.
01:01:51.878 --> 01:01:55.797
So it's okay to delay on, on a decision.
01:01:56.768 --> 01:01:57.438
It is.
01:01:57.818 --> 01:01:59.898
One word that defines great leadership.
01:02:00.838 --> 01:02:03.114
Courage Yeah.
01:02:03.594 --> 01:02:06.123
Be strong and courageous Mm You hear that over and over again.
01:02:06.123 --> 01:02:06.753
It's Joshua.
01:02:06.753 --> 01:02:08.914
So I, I think that's it.
01:02:09.804 --> 01:02:11.333
If it's one, it's courage.
01:02:11.333 --> 01:02:12.954
If it's two- Mm it's strong and courageous.
01:02:12.954 --> 01:02:13.614
Courageous.
01:02:13.634 --> 01:02:13.923
Yeah.
01:02:14.523 --> 01:02:17.884
And the last one, most underrated leadership skill?
01:02:18.704 --> 01:02:19.474
Kindness.
01:02:19.534 --> 01:02:19.813
Hmm.
01:02:20.634 --> 01:02:27.753
You know, and I, I thi- I w- you and I may have even talked about this recently, that, having a hard conversation is kind.
01:02:27.914 --> 01:02:28.023
Mm.
01:02:28.054 --> 01:02:32.173
So kindness doesn't mean just letting things, roll over you.
01:02:32.173 --> 01:02:48.224
I will tell you that probably the thing that I am most grateful for is that in my leadership roles, I had to let go of a nber of people, and it's always painful to, to say,"You know, it's just not a fit anymore," and for one reason or another.
01:02:48.224 --> 01:02:50.304
Some of them have been disciplinary.
01:02:50.494 --> 01:02:52.503
Some of them have just been a poor fit.
01:02:53.634 --> 01:02:58.853
and, I remember, doing this with the teachers' union in the public school.
01:02:59.784 --> 01:03:03.983
p- everybody would say,"Well, you can't fire a teacher'cause the union won't let you," and that's not true.
01:03:04.494 --> 01:03:16.103
It takes courage, it takes discipline, it takes relationships, and it takes kindness to work through the process to help a teacher- Mm understand that this is just not the right fit for you.
01:03:16.943 --> 01:03:33.313
And I can tell you alm- not everyone, but almost to a person, the people that I've let go, because I was kind to them, I was firm, I was clear, all those kinds of other things, but because I was kind to them, they still will embrace me, will greet me.
01:03:33.664 --> 01:03:40.934
Their, We, we have maintained a relationship in spite of the fact, that I had to make a hard call.
01:03:41.173 --> 01:03:42.554
It's like being a parent.
01:03:42.563 --> 01:03:44.193
You do hard things with your kids.
01:03:44.204 --> 01:03:53.634
You discipline them, but you do it in a kind, firm, but kind way because you want to maintain that relationship- Mm because that's more important.
01:03:54.543 --> 01:04:00.813
so kindness in, in the proper context of that word and definition of that word.
01:04:00.994 --> 01:04:05.360
That's great Well, as we close up today, I really appreciate our time together.
01:04:05.369 --> 01:04:05.389
Yeah.
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:10.940
If you wanted our listeners to remember one thing from our conversation today, what would you want it to be?
01:04:10.969 --> 01:04:14.820
Oh, you know, I, I would say keep on keeping on.
01:04:14.829 --> 01:04:15.050
Mm.
01:04:15.260 --> 01:04:33.230
I, I, in that sermon that I listened to this week, I'll just smarize it very briefly, but, Alistair Begg was in, you know, he's from, Great Britain, from Scotland, and he went to visit an, a missionary who'd been on the mission field in Africa for many years, and she was in her, she was in her 90s.
01:04:33.250 --> 01:04:34.449
She'd suffered a stroke.
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:35.519
It was very hard.
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:37.440
She could hardly speak at all, so she...
01:04:37.989 --> 01:04:46.949
As he ministered to her, talked to her, reminisced, read scripture, prayed with her, her caretaker said,"Well, isn't there something you'd like to say to Dr.
01:04:46.949 --> 01:04:49.860
Begg?" And, and she didn't say anything.
01:04:49.860 --> 01:04:51.880
She said,"Isn't there something you'd like to say to Dr.
01:04:51.880 --> 01:05:06.610
Begg?" And finally, this woman who'd had a stroke, who could, couldn't even speak, she said,"Keep on..." She whispered,"Keep on keeping on." And I th- and I, I just, that's kind of my, that's my, my reminder to me.
01:05:06.630 --> 01:05:09.110
It's my encouragement to others who are listening.
01:05:09.650 --> 01:05:22.050
No matter how hard it gets, no matter how long you've been doing it, no matter if you've just gotten into it, if you're thinking about getting into it, keep your eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, and keep on keeping on.
01:05:22.519 --> 01:05:24.039
Yeah there's no better advice for anybody.
01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:24.349
Well, great.
01:05:24.389 --> 01:05:25.349
Well, thank you very much.
01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:25.429
My pleasure.
01:05:25.429 --> 01:05:26.139
Thanks for being here.
01:05:26.789 --> 01:05:29.820
Well, thank you for joining us today for another episode with Gary.
01:05:29.820 --> 01:05:30.429
It's been great.
01:05:30.429 --> 01:05:32.949
We'll have in the show notes some of the books that he's mentioned.
01:05:33.289 --> 01:05:38.389
Hopefully, those will be a good resource to you as well, that you can, look, pick those up, purchase those.
01:05:38.409 --> 01:05:43.679
And if you don't, follow us, please do like and subscribe to our Leadership Podcast.
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:44.989
And also, we'll have a link there.
01:05:45.349 --> 01:05:49.820
We do a semi-monthly newsletter if you'd like to receive that on different topics that we talk about.
01:05:49.829 --> 01:05:56.250
And just a reminder for all of us to continue to lead with courage, grow with purpose, and change what really matters.
01:05:56.250 --> 01:05:57.670
And until next time, have a great day.